Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1389

 1                           Wednesday, 14 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning all.

 9             May we have the appearances, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Joanna Korner and Crispian Smith for the

11     Prosecution.  Good morning, Your Honours.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  For the Stanisic Defence, Slobodan Zecevic.  Good

13     morning, Your Honours.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

15     Defence, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, Mr. Eric Tully, and our lovely

16     assistant Ms. Harriet Taylor.  Thank you so much.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             May we have the witness return to the courtroom, please.

19             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I was just preparing for

21     cross-examination.  Nothing else.

22             Well, I know Your Honours are so conscious about time, so that's

23     why --

24             MR. PANTELIC:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  Yesterday when we

25     finished our session, I addressed the Chamber.  I owe certain

Page 1390

 1     explanations to honourable Judge Harhoff regarding some questions that I

 2     put to Colonel Basara yesterday.  In particular, when I asked him a part

 3     of line of my questions regarding the episodes where he personally came

 4     to Manjaca to bring out young Muslim, Nijaz, and also on the other

 5     occasion when he personally and -- ordered two of his soldiers to go to

 6     school in Sanski Most to get out two Muslims to make a favour to the

 7     father of these young people when he know -- knew him before, the line

 8     was very simple.  We tried to show that Colonel Basara, being a military

 9     commander, in his zone of responsibility was able to sort of act whenever

10     he found its necessary to bring people in detention or to get them out.

11     And our theory, Your Honour, is that in accordance with the international

12     criminal law, case law, within this Tribunal and the international

13     humanity law as well as the local domestic jurisdiction, that military

14     commander during the armed conflict is the supreme master or person for

15     particular zone of responsibility.  And that of course all other forces,

16     including police forces, should be and will be subordinate to him in

17     certain aspect of civilian life of course.  More details we shall hear

18     from OTP witness Mrs. Hanson, Dorothea Hanson, and other witnesses as

19     well as from OTP side and Defence side.  That was the line of question

20     which I followed yesterday with Colonel Basara, who testified.  If it

21     pleases the Court, this explanation.

22             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I don't want to waste any more

23     time, and I'm not going to, but I don't think it's appropriate for

24     counsel to make speeches like this.  I appreciate Mr. Pantelic says he

25     was answering the question, but that's a speech and the time for speeches

Page 1391

 1     is not during the evidence.  Speeches are for the end of the trial or at

 2     the stage where there's a submission of no case to answer.  But I don't

 3     think that speeches like this are appropriate.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  Well, I respectfully disagree that that was a

 5     speech.  It was just a part of Defence strategy to be shown -- explained

 6     to the Trial Chamber.  Thank you so much.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Counsels, let's not waste any more time.  My

 8     understanding of Mr. Pantelic's intervention was a response to a question

 9     that I actually did put to him yesterday, but of course I agree that this

10     is too early for the concluding remarks.

11             Should we get the witness in?

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Djekanovic, good morning to you.  As would

14     have -- as I believe we would have explained to you on -- when we took

15     the -- when you were stood down on Friday, it isn't always possible to

16     predict how long witnesses will take and, therefore, you're returning on

17     Wednesday, a little later than you or the Chamber would have anticipated.

18     But the -- I would remind you that where we are is that counsel for the

19     Prosecution has completed her examination-in-chief and now it remains for

20     you to be cross-examined.  I would remind you that you're still on your

21     oath, and in that vein I would remind you that the obligation of your

22     oath to give truthful testimony carries with it the sanction of penalties

23     for testimony that is false.

24             Mr. Zecevic.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 1392

 1                           WITNESS:  NEDJELKO DJEKANOVIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djekanovic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   I hope you've managed to have a good rest over the past three

 7     days.  Mr. Djekanovic, during your first day of examination, on page 8 of

 8     the transcript and on page 51 of the transcript, you discussed with the

 9     Prosecutor the issue of the community of municipalities of Banja Luka and

10     its relationship with the autonomous region of Krajina.  When I read the

11     transcript, I found out that it was not quite clearly recorded, and I

12     would appreciate some clarification for the benefit of all of us,

13     including the Trial Chamber.

14             Now, the union of municipalities or the community of

15     municipalities was a regional structure that existed in the former

16     Yugoslavia as well, not only in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Those unions of municipalities, those regional unions of

19     municipalities, were constituted for geographic, economic, and other

20     considerations whereby it was in the interests of municipalities to form

21     an association and that's why they did it; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, this union of municipalities had a certain structure that

24     reflected the structure of single municipalities.  It had Assemblies and

25     other agencies?

Page 1393

 1        A.   I was not involved in politics, and I cannot answer you clearly

 2     whether these structures were identical, but it's quite certain in any

 3     case that all those unions of municipalities had all the various bodies

 4     which had their jurisdiction each.

 5        Q.   I understand.  I'm sorry that you are a mechanical engineer by

 6     training.  Just one question:  Was the union -- did the union of

 7     municipalities of Banja Luka have an Assembly, a parliament?

 8        A.   Yes, it did.

 9        Q.   So in 1991, when the Assembly of the union of municipalities of

10     Banja Luka became the Assembly of the autonomous region of Krajina, it

11     was just a case of re-naming, wasn't it?  I'll ask you about that later.

12     I know you are about to tell me that some other municipalities joined at

13     that point.  But formally speaking, it was just a change of name and the

14     joining of the union by some additional municipalities; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   So in that context, the continuity of the municipality of Kotor

17     Varos and the union of municipalities of Banja Luka, later the autonomous

18     region of Krajina has lasted from the 1980s, 1980-something when the

19     union of municipalities of Banja Luka was created?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And that's why you said in your answer that you in the SDS did

22     not raise this issue as a priority, because it was a very well-known fact

23     already by that time?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Now, in addition to this autonomous region of Krajina, there was

Page 1394

 1     also a Croatian union of municipalities called Herceg-Bosna; do you know

 2     that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know that the Croatian community of municipalities,

 5     Herceg-Bosna, was created back in -- on 18 November 1991?

 6        A.   I don't recall the exact date, but yes.

 7        Q.   I'd like to show you a map, a pre-war map of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina listing and showing all municipalities with their boundaries,

 9     and then I'd like to ask you to circle, to the best of your recollection,

10     the municipalities which constituted Herceg-Bosna to the best of your

11     ability.

12        A.   All right.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we show to the witness

14     1D00-4619.

15        Q.   Let me just ask you, Mr. Djekanovic, the interpreters have warned

16     me that we are talking too fast.  Will you please mind the pause between

17     questions and answers, and I will take care too.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge this map a little?

19     Thank you.  That's all right now.

20        Q.   Can you see well on the map?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   All right then.  The municipality of Livno, was it part of

23     Herceg-Bosna?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give the

Page 1395

 1     witness a pen.

 2        Q.   Could you please circle the municipality.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   In the future, please put a circle around the name of the

 5     municipality.  Now Kupres, was it part of Herceg-Bosna; if so, put a

 6     circle around it.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Bugojno?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Gornji Vakuf?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Travnik?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Put a circle around it, it's in the middle, the very centre.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   You just encircled Novi Travnik.  Was it part of Herceg-Bosna as

17     well?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Vitez, municipality of Vitez, was it part of Herceg-Bosna?

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   You put a circle around it.  Thank you.

22             Busovaca?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Fojnica -- did you put a around Busovaca, it's below Vitez, a bit

25     to the right.

Page 1396

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   That's it.  Fojnica, was it part of Herceg-Bosna?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Kiseljak?

 5        A.   Yes.  It's to the right of Fojnica.

 6        Q.   Kresevo?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Konjic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Prozor?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Jablanica?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Tomislavgrad -- sorry, at the time it was called Duvno?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Posusje?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did we mention Jablanica?  Yes, you put a circle around it.

19     Mostar?

20        A.   Mostar was the centre.

21        Q.   Siroki Brijeg, then called Listica?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we raise the map, please, just

24     2 centimetres -- oh, sorry, now you can't do it, now you can't do it

25     because it's marked.  We didn't position it too well, but never mind.

Page 1397

 1        Q.   In addition there was Ljubuski?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Citluk?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Capljina?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Trebinje?

 8        A.   No, Trebinje wasn't.

 9        Q.   Part of Trebinje?

10        A.   Yes, part of Trebinje was.

11        Q.   And then Jajce, put a circle around Jajce.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Kakanj?

14        A.   I don't remember about Kakanj, I can't tell you, but Zepce was

15     part of Herceg-Bosna.

16        Q.   Then put a circle around it.  Fine.  Now, the municipalities we

17     have enumerated in addition to those we can't see on this map because we

18     didn't position it well formed the Croatian community of municipalities

19     Herceg-Bosna from 18 November 1991, although you don't recall the date?

20        A.   Yes, but I think Kotor Varos joined also.

21        Q.   Let's take it one step at a time.  We'll come to that.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please get a number for this

23     document?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D20, Your Honours.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we get again 1D4619 [as

Page 1398

 1     interpreted] again, but this time raise it a bit higher.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just have to emphasise that

 3     Derventa, Brod, Samac municipalities were also part of this community.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   We are coming to that.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the whole map of Bosnia

 7     and Herzegovina so the witness can show us.  Just a bit smaller, please.

 8        Q.   Right.  Now, can you see well on this map?  You know what?  Just

 9     put a little cross or a dot on the municipalities that were part of

10     Herceg-Bosna.  Right.  Go ahead now.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness get some help --

12     no wait a bit.  Can the witness start marking now?

13        Q.   Wait a second -- no, no, no, please don't do anything until the

14     map is positioned.  This is the AV service which usually works very well

15     with occasional hitches.

16             Now start.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And mark all those you marked on the previous map, please.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Kresevo, Fojnica, Konjic.  Konjic and Kresevo I believe you

21     didn't mark.  You didn't mark Konjic and Kresevo.  You marked Mostar,

22     Capljina, did you?

23             So this is roughly what the Croatian community of the

24     municipalities of Herceg-Bosna looked like in 1991, isn't it?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1399

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we assign an exhibit number

 2     to this document, please?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit 1D21, Your Honours.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Djekanovic, judging by the area of this Croatian

 6     community of municipalities, Herceg-Bosna, accounted for about a third of

 7     the overall area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, didn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You spoke about Ante Mandic as your community prefect.  The SDS

10     of the Kotor Varos municipality, irrespective of the party agreement in

11     Sarajevo about the distribution of positions at municipal level did cede

12     that position to the HDZ and Ante Mandic was appointed to that position,

13     wasn't he?

14        A.   Yes, he was.

15        Q.   That community prefect who was actually supported by you wanted

16     to join Kotor Varos to this community, the Croatian communities of

17     municipalities, and practically take it out of the Banja Luka union of

18     municipalities to which it had belonged for so many years.  Wasn't that

19     the case?

20        A.   Yes.  In contravention of the positions of the Municipal

21     Assembly, he did decide to that effect.  He signed an agreement to that

22     effect.

23        Q.   Can you show on this map where your municipality of Kotor Varos

24     is located and mark it with a large X.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 1400

 1        Q.   So this municipality of yours, Kotor Varos, was to be -- was to

 2     join the Croatian community of municipalities, that was the intention of

 3     Anto Mandic, although by its geographic position and by all other

 4     criteria it belonged to the Banja Luka region, didn't it?

 5        A.   Yes, indeed.

 6        Q.   In that sense, Mr. Anto Mandic participated in the work of the

 7     community of Herceg-Bosna and effectively signed the -- signed a document

 8     about the municipality of Kotor Varos joining the Croatian Community of

 9     Herceg-Bosna, although that was not the position of the Municipal

10     Assembly?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   When was that roughly?

13        A.   It was in late 1991.  I do not remember the exact date, as I said

14     earlier, but it was toward the end of 1991.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this marked

17     map into evidence also, please.

18             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D22, Your Honours.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Let us pass on to something else, to another problem.

22             If I remember well, in your examination-in-chief you were member

23     of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   As a delegate?

Page 1401

 1        A.   Yes, as a delegate I was elected delegate at the first

 2     multi-party elections.

 3        Q.   You're speaking about 1990?

 4        A.   Yes, 1990.

 5        Q.   Let us shed some light on this issue for the benefit of the

 6     Trial Chamber.  The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia as a

 7     federation in 1991 was in existence, and it was in 1992 until sometime in

 8     April, wasn't it?

 9        A.   Yes, but before that Slovenia had adopted a decision about

10     unilateral separation, and I believe Croatia too.

11        Q.   Yes, but the issue of the secession of two republics does not

12     mean --

13        A.   Yes, yes, at that moment.  Yes, at that moment the Socialist

14     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was still in existence.

15        Q.   Tell me, do you remember that as early as February 1991 Alija

16     Izetbegovic tried to initiate a vote about the declaration on the

17     sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Assembly?  Were you present at

18     that Assembly meeting?

19        A.   I was present at all Assembly meetings, at all sessions; and

20     since the beginning, that is, since that Assembly started functioning, it

21     was clear that things would develop in that direction.  There were

22     such -- such tendencies at the very beginning.

23        Q.   Our time is limited, so I would ask you to limit yourself to

24     answering the question.  This is not a crucial issue for what we are

25     talking about, but it does provide a context.  So do you agree with me

Page 1402

 1     that in February 1991 Alija Izetbegovic for the first time tried to push

 2     a declaration on the sovereignty of BiH through the Assembly but it

 3     didn't -- he wasn't successful at the time; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was the structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina such that there were

 6     three constitutive people which, in essence, means that all three peoples

 7     constituted that republic; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So there were mechanisms that prevented any one people to be down

10     voted or two peoples joining forces against the third; is that correct?

11        A.   Absolutely.

12        Q.   However, in spite of all these constitutional and other legal

13     limitations, in October 1991 the HDZ, that is, the members of parliament

14     belonging to that party and to the SDA, passed a decision on the

15     declaration of independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the night of the

16     14th through the 15th October or the 15th to the 16th?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   That decision was passed in an illegal manner and contrary to

19     your constitution; isn't that so?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Even the session of parliament which was interrupted or which had

22     been interrupted was continued in a way contrary to the rules of

23     procedure; isn't that so?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   So if I may call it that, your fellow members of parliament who

Page 1403

 1     belonged to the HDZ and the SDA parties in the Assembly in effect, by

 2     force and in -- illegally, contrary to the constitution, voted about the

 3     sovereignty and the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina in October 1991;

 4     isn't that the case?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   Do you remember the president of the SDS, Radovan Karadzic,

 7     asking them not to do that, yes or no?

 8        A.   Yes, I remember very well.

 9        Q.   Tell me, there is much talk here about the position of the SDS

10     being to preserve the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and that

11     is then put into some virtual context of a Greater Serbia, et cetera.

12     Tell me, apart from the SDS, the SKSDP, and the SRSJ, that is, parties

13     who were -- that were also represented in parliament, the parliament of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, since the multi-party elections, were those parties

15     also in favour of preserving the SFRJ and Bosnia as part of the SFRJ?

16        A.   Certainly the SDS at that time politically acted to preserve

17     Yugoslavia.  In that period there were also other Yugoslav-oriented

18     political parties that also wanted to preserve Yugoslavia, among them the

19     ones that you mentioned.

20        Q.   Were there others?

21        A.   That was -- those were the early days of multi-party political

22     life, and there weren't so many parties apart from the League of

23     Communists that had survived.  There was some reformists also that were

24     in favour of preserving Yugoslavia.  The reformists were a wing of the

25     former League of Communists.

Page 1404

 1        Q.   Yes, indeed, now I remember too.  Thank you.

 2             Tell me, after that the Serbian people held a referendum that was

 3     attended -- or rather, the turn-out at the referendum of over 99 per cent

 4     and that referendum corroborated the wish of the Serbian people to remain

 5     in Yugoslavia, yes or no?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   Irrespective of this situation, that is, the declaration about

 8     sovereignty which was an illegal decision contrary to the constitution,

 9     which was passed by force, did you as a party and do you personally as a

10     Member of Parliament continue going to the sessions of the BiH

11     parliament?

12        A.   I believe that until the end of December we attended the common

13     sessions.  By that time we also tried to -- or rather, we tried to

14     preserve all that, but as it became clear that we would be unsuccessful

15     we left the Assembly very soon and established a separate Assembly.

16        Q.   Do you remember the decision passed on the 18th of December

17     addressed to the Presidency or the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, asking

18     for recognition -- just wait a minute, please.

19        A.   I remember all these decisions, but after all this time I cannot

20     mention all these dates exactly.  But I do remember the events,

21     certainly.

22        Q.   At that moment when that illegal decision contrary to the

23     constitution was passed about the -- about making the decision from

24     October 1991 operational, you understood that it was no longer possible

25     to go back; isn't that correct?

Page 1405

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   During the examination-in-chief you said that the position of the

 3     SDS was to advocate centralisation rather than regionalisation or

 4     cantonisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

 5        A.   I don't quite understand the question.  If you think -- if you

 6     mean the Republika Srpska, then yes.

 7        Q.   Well then obviously I didn't understand your answer either.

 8             So the SDS at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina advocated

 9     regionalisation, but in the context of the Republika Srpska that was

10     created later he was -- it was in favour of centralisation, more or less?

11        A.   Yes, more or less.

12        Q.   Okay.  Do you know -- we're now speaking about

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do you know that the regionalisation and

14     cantonisation was absolutely supported by the European Union, wasn't it,

15     in 1991 and in early 1992?

16        A.   Yes.  Actually, you are reminding me of that.  You are keeping

17     track of all this information.  I do remember some plans, a Lisbon Plan

18     and the attempt to create an atmosphere to avoid conflict, but those

19     plans came to nothing; Alija Izetbegovic rejected them.  Those

20     negotiations and the solutions advocated by the European Union of the

21     international factor implied a regionalisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

22     certainly a different organisation -- organisational structure.

23        Q.   When you say "Lisbon Plans," you mean the plan of the European

24     Union popularly called Cutileiro's Plan?

25        A.   Yes, it was the Cutileiro Plan.

Page 1406

 1        Q.   In essence, the Cutileiro Plan envisaged a regionalisation of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina to the effect of the creation of three communities

 3     that would have all structures of power and administration, and in

 4     Sarajevo there would be some sort of central power equal to that of a

 5     federal state?

 6        A.   Yes, that plan was crafted in Lisbon, but as soon as everybody

 7     got back to -- got back home it was rejected.

 8        Q.   Just for the sake of better understanding, the Lisbon Plan or

 9     these Cutileiro Plans, would you please limit yourself to the question

10     because your response may turn out differently in the transcript.  So the

11     Lisbon Agreement, under the auspices of the European Union chaired by

12     Mr. Cutileiro, properly called the Cutileiro Plan, was signed by all

13     three parties, major parties, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the SDA, HDZ, and

14     SDA [as interpreted], that is, in other words, Mr. Karadzic,

15     Mr. Izetbegovic, and Mr. Kljujic or whoever it was at the time, and they

16     all accepted that plan in Lisbon, didn't they, yes or no?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Upon returning to Sarajevo, Alija Izetbegovic withdrew his

19     signature on that plan, did he?

20        A.   Yes, he did.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Djekanovic, let us speak a little about Crisis

22     Staffs.  You know that at the level of the Presidency of BiH, the Crisis

23     Staff of the Presidency was established on the 21st of September, 1991,

24     and the president of that staff was the member of the Presidency, Mr.

25     Ejup Ganic, do you know that?

Page 1407

 1        A.   Yes, there were Crisis Staffs in all municipalities, also at the

 2     level of BiH and at the level of the Presidency, but I don't remember the

 3     dates when they were established, but there were Crisis Staffs all

 4     around.

 5        Q.   Do you know that the HDZ of Kotor Varos municipality established

 6     its own Crisis Staff which held meetings regularly, ever since February

 7     or March 1992?

 8        A.   Yes, all three parties had Crisis Staffs at -- or in the

 9     territory of the Kotor Varos municipality.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Let us show to the witness document

11     1D00-4000.

12        Q.   Can you see the document on your left-hand side?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Have you seen this document before?

15        A.   No, I haven't.  I've seen it here for the first time although I

16     knew of its existence.

17        Q.   You see that the HDZ on the 8th of March, 1992, decided to

18     establish a Crisis Staff and five individuals are mentioned here.  Do you

19     know anyone from Kotor Varos, any one of them?

20        A.   Pile Mandic, I knew him.  I knew Ilija Zeba.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   Slavo Petrusic I think.

23        Q.   So you knew of its existence, and there's no reason for you to

24     doubt the authenticity of this document?

25        A.   No, I don't doubt it at all.

Page 1408

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document

 2     into evidence.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  As I understand his testimony, he wasn't the author,

 6     and he only became aware of it a few days ago.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, but he doesn't dispute the existence of the

 8     HDZ Crisis Staff at the time in Kotor Varos, and I asked him does he --

 9     has any -- does he have any -- knowing all the situation in Kotor Varos,

10     does he have any doubts as to the authenticity of this document.  He says

11     no.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I have to -- I have no particular

13     objection to this going in, although as I say the witness can't really

14     deal with it.  But I don't think that strict proof is really required by

15     the Rules of this Tribunal.  However, I am concerned it's not on the list

16     that we were sent.  Are there any other documents that aren't on our

17     list?  That's all I want to know?

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it might be an oversight.  I'm sorry.  I

19     apologise.  Because this is the document which I used with the very first

20     witness, and then I asked him do I need to -- can he confirm that the

21     HDZ, the Crisis Staff existed and he says, "You don't have to show me the

22     document," that is why I -- I'm sorry.  But since this is our last

23     witness from Kotor Varos, that is -- I thought that that would be the

24     only appropriate point where I can offer this document because I wouldn't

25     have any other opportunity, Your Honours.  We don't intend to call any --

Page 1409

 1     nor can we expect that any members of the HDZ Crisis Staff will testify

 2     in our case.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  It's admitted and marked.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D23, Your Honours.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Tell me, do you know that apart from the Crisis Staff, the HDZ

 8     established an HVO command or headquarters for Kotor Varos?

 9        A.   I also said last time that at the time when the conflict broke

10     out, especially in March, April, May, of a time before June, all three

11     ethnic communities had commands of their own armed forces and that they

12     had a large number of armed men organised into various units.  And there

13     was a display of this -- of these troops in the town there was even

14     shooting.  And once Mr. Anto Mandic was stopped at such a barricade that

15     the members of the HVO and the Green Berets had put up.

16        Q.   So if I understood you correctly, all three ethnic parties had

17     some sort of military wing and there were commands of these persons who

18     were established into units and the territory any one party tried to hold

19     some check-points and barricades were put up where they stopped citizens.

20     Is that correct or not?

21        A.   I cannot merely answer by yes or no because I would like to add

22     an explanation.  At that period the Serbian people was leaning on the

23     Yugoslav People's Army, and at the time we didn't establish our own armed

24     forces because there was this military force of the Yugoslav People's

25     Army that we were relying on.  But the Green Berets and the HVO were

Page 1410

 1     already established in the territory of the Kotor Varos municipality.

 2     Only later when the VRS was established or was being established, our

 3     formations were also established.  So the SDS went about it in a

 4     different way, certainly.

 5        Q.   The SDS didn't have a Crisis Staff in Kotor Varos municipality,

 6     as a party Crisis Staff, yes or no?

 7        A.   The Serbian municipal office or municipality formed a Crisis

 8     Staff.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, can you please listen to my question.  I'm asking

10     you whether the SDS party formed its Crisis Staff just as you saw earlier

11     that the HDZ formed its own Crisis Staff.  Did the SDS in Kotor Varos

12     have its Crisis Staff, yes or no?

13        A.   I don't know whether this was directly consequence of a decision

14     by the SDS or the Serbian Assembly.  I'm not quite sure about that, but

15     there was a Crisis Staff, that is definite.

16        Q.   When you formed -- when the Serbian Assembly formed the Crisis

17     Staff, did you review the legal basis for that at the time, yes or no?

18        A.   I spoke about it last time --

19        Q.   No, please, just answer with a yes or no if you can.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   The legal basis for the establishment of the Crisis Staff was the

22     Law on All People's Defence and social self protection, the constitution

23     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

24     the strategy of All People's Defence; is that right?  This would be the

25     legal basis for the establishment of an organ such as the Crisis Staff?

Page 1411

 1        A.   Yes, this is what I actually wanted to say in my answer to the

 2     previous question.

 3        Q.   To simplify things, the regulations provided that in

 4     extraordinary circumstances, even due to inclement weather or

 5     catastrophes caused by weather such collective organs be formed

 6     comprising the most responsible people in the municipality, who would

 7     take over the powers for the functioning of the municipality in such

 8     extraordinary circumstances because there was no possibility for the

 9     legally-elected municipal organs to convene.  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   When the Crisis Staff was formed, it became the sole authority in

12     the municipality, uncontested power; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When I say "uncontested," what I mean by that is that all the

15     rights and duties for normal life in the municipality, the economy, the

16     utilities, the schools rested with the Crisis Staff?

17        A.   Yes, all matters except for military matters.

18        Q.   In that sense you absolutely didn't require any instructions

19     because the legal powers in that sense and the text of the law are very

20     clear in terms of what are your powers, responsibilities, rights; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In order to form the Crisis Staff, you didn't have to resort or

24     rely on any kind of instructions, yes or no?

25        A.   The people who made the preparations for the setting up of the

Page 1412

 1     Crisis Staff actually took as their basis the Law of All People's

 2     Defence.  At the time when it was formed we were looking for a legal

 3     basis in those kinds of documents.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat

 5     exactly which documents he was referring to.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   When you say "documents," what do you mean?  You mean legal --

 8     laws?

 9        A.   Yes, the laws in force in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina at the time.

11        Q.   In that sense the duty of the Crisis Staff, as far as those laws

12     were concerned, was that once the emergency situation had ended it was

13     obliged to submit a report to the Municipal Assembly, which then the

14     Municipal Assembly of a given municipality - in this case it was Kotor

15     Varos - would adopt or not adopt the report and would decide on the

16     responsibilities of the Crisis Staff members for their work?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   In that sense it was not one of your duties to send reports to

19     anyone about your work, except to keep records and minutes so that in

20     your final report you would be able to report to the Municipal Assembly

21     about your activities, what you did, and so on and so forth?

22        A.   Absolutely, we did not have any obligation to report to anyone

23     about our work, no.

24        Q.   In the examination-in-chief you said that from time to time you

25     submitted a kind of summary report to the Assembly of the Autonomous

Page 1413

 1     Region of the Krajina in order to present the situation in the

 2     municipality?

 3        A.   Yes, there were just brief reports about some aspects of our

 4     work, but not a detailed report about all of our activities.

 5        Q.   When you said you didn't submit any reports, does that mean you

 6     didn't submit reports to any state organ:  The government, the ministry,

 7     the Presidency, yes or no?

 8        A.   No, we didn't submit any such reports to those organs.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  We've clarified this because that part was a little

10     bit unclear during the examination-in-chief why you kept minutes of

11     Crisis Staff meetings, so basically it was in order to document the

12     proceedings on the basis of which you would compile reports that would be

13     submitted to the Assembly of your socio-political community or the

14     Municipal Assembly of Kotor Varos which could then agree to adopt it or

15     reject it and establish your responsibility as members of the Crisis

16     Staff; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that is right, but here I would just like to add one

18     sentence about those reports.

19        Q.   Go ahead.

20        A.   As soon as the Dayton Accords were signed, I think that we were

21     probably the first municipality to voluntarily hand over all those

22     reports to the representatives of the international community.  I think

23     it was the IFOR at the time.  Our secretariat took those documents to the

24     Ramici base and made copies of all those documents.  This was as soon as

25     the Dayton reports were signed.  So we voluntarily handed over those

Page 1414

 1     reports to them.  We did not wish this to be a confidential procedure or

 2     anything like that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  This is a question that should have been put to you

 4     by my learned friend, the Prosecutor, but I would like to help her.

 5             Can you please tell me, in September 1992 you had already set up

 6     a normal situation to a certain extent and the Executive Board of the

 7     municipality had started to function at that time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you recall when the municipality of Kotor Varos Assembly was

10     re-convened again?

11        A.   I repeat, I don't recall the exact date but parallel with the

12     establishment of the Executive Board the Kotor Varos Municipal Assembly

13     began to work, and it included the deputies who had been elected in 1990

14     if they were still there.

15        Q.   In any case, if you're unable to remember the date, this was in

16     1992, the end of 1992?

17        A.   Yes, it was in 1992, end of 1992 in any case.

18        Q.   I'm now going to show to you a number of these minutes from

19     Crisis Staff meetings, and we're not going to comment in detail on all of

20     them, only some of them.  But since you were the one who signed these

21     reports we need to be able to tender them as exhibits in this case.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

23     document 1D00-0749.

24             [In English] Your Honours, just one indication.  I believe I will

25     finish right -- half an hour after the break, just an indication.  That

Page 1415

 1     is the proximity as I can see at this moment.  Thank you very much.

 2             I was notified by my learned colleague that this one was omitted

 3     to be sent to them again.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That's fine.  So in that case --

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  I'll withdraw that one.

 6             Can I have 65 ter --

 7             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             I'm not objecting, I'm just pointing out without the microphone

 9     on --

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, no, principles are principles, and we will

11     follow the principles.  I will withdraw this document.  Thank you.

12             Could the witness be shown 65 ter 00690.  This one is

13     definitely --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Zecevic.  We of course agree with your

15     observation about principles, but if the Prosecution isn't objecting and

16     there's a document that you need for your Defence, what do you propose to

17     do if you aren't going to exhibit it at this stage?

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, Your Honours, I understood that your ruling

19     was that we will follow the guide-lines.  I failed.  The Prosecution

20     raised the issue.  Your Honours ruled, and I withdrew the document.  That

21     is why -- I meant no disrespect to the Trial Chamber of course.  I was --

22     it was just a comment to Ms. Korner.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We understand, Mr. Zecevic, and we will also

24     understand the basis for your objection if and when the Prosecution --

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's exactly what I was doing, preserving my

Page 1416

 1     right.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  This document is Prosecution exhibit from

 4     the 65 ter list.  It will become exhibit for the Defence.

 5             Can the witness be shown the second -- [Interpretation] Could the

 6     witness be shown page 2 of the document, please.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, while we're struggling with the

 8     page, this is 65 ter number 690, is that it?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's right.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  But I wanted the second page.  The first one is

12     just the cover page for the document.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Djekanovic, this is an order by the Crisis

14     Staff to impose a curfew in the Kotor Varos municipality dated the 12th

15     of June, 1992.  It has a number, and it's signed by you.  Is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You recognise this order, yes or no?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this document?

22             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D24, Your Honours.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

25     document 1D00-0751.

Page 1417

 1        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, could you please look at this document.  It's an

 2     excerpt from the minutes of the Crisis Staff meeting of the 20th of June,

 3     1992.  Is that correct?  That's what it says in the heading.

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please look at

 6     page 2 of this document.

 7        Q.   Is this your signature, Mr. Djekanovic, in your capacity as

 8     president of the Crisis Staff?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

11     tendered?

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.  What -- before we put it into

13     evidence, what exactly do you wish to draw the Court's attention to?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, we are having -- we will be

15     having Ms. Hanson as the OTP expert on Crisis Staffs in very imminent

16     future, I guess next week or the week after, something.  Now, we have a

17     number of documents which pertain to the Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos.  As

18     Mr. Djekanovic was the president of the Crisis Staff of Kotor Varos, he

19     signed these minutes, and this is the only way which I see appropriate to

20     tender this as exhibits because there will be no other way for us to

21     tender these exhibits before Ms. Hanson appears -- appears in court.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  Thank you.  I understand that, but --

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  And -- yes --

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- you see, the reason I'm asking this is I want

25     to be sure that in the end when the trial is over and the Chamber has

Page 1418

 1     withdrawn to deliberate, then we will come across this document and we

 2     will all wonder:  Why on earth was this document put into evidence?  It

 3     shows that there was an SDS Crisis Staff in Kotor Varos; that I think is

 4     not disputed.  It shows that the witness was the president; that too is

 5     obvious and not disputed.  So unless -- unless there's something in the

 6     contents of the document that you specifically want to draw the Court's

 7     attention to --

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  There is definitely a lot of the specifics in these

 9     documents which I need for the cross-examination of the expert

10     Ms. Hanson.  But if Your Honours want me, I can file a bar table motion

11     and explain the relevance of each and every of these documents.  Because

12     I thought it would be appropriate that I tender these documents as

13     exhibits and then discuss them with Ms. Hanson because that is -- that

14     was my intention.  I don't need to -- I don't need to discuss this with

15     the witness, as he can confirm only the authenticity.  That is the only

16     purpose.  There is nothing that I need from these documents from this

17     witness.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour --

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Except maybe a line or two on some of them, yes.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, it's on our 65 ter list, which takes --

21     makes the point that we thought it was relevant to an issue.  It is

22     actually relevant to an issue.  I'm not inviting Mr. Zecevic to make a

23     speech about why it is relevant, but it is relevant.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, again, I wasn't making a speech, I just --

25             MS. KORNER:  No, no, I'm just saying to avoid you making a

Page 1419

 1     speech.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm just answering the Trial Chamber's question.

 3             MS. KORNER:  No, no, I'm not criticising you, Mr. Zecevic.  I'm

 4     just saying that it didn't need a speech.  I accept that it's relevant to

 5     an issue.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Okay.  I will -- the Chamber will accept this,

 7     but maybe we should bring it up in this 65 ter meeting later on.  I mean,

 8     to find some sort of form of showing to the Chamber the relevance of

 9     documents as we admit them, I think that would be preferable.  I don't

10     mind you putting in this document at this time and then taking it up

11     again with Ms. Hanson --

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  But, Your Honour, you see --

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Sorry, let's stop here and just proceed.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D25, Your Honours.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Is -- I'm sorry, I just lost -- it's admitted.

17     Thank you.

18             Can the witness be shown document 1D00-0755.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we're just up on the break now.  Do you wish

20     to do this now or when we return?

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  As it pleases the Court, Your Honours.

22             It's time to rise?

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 1420

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we begin I

 4     would just like to apologise once again to the interpreters.  I've been

 5     warned during the break about my speed, and I'm going to try to do my

 6     best to go slower, and I apologise once again.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  While we wait for the witness to come in, maybe

 8     we can just raise the venue for this afternoon's meeting, and I

 9     understand that the little conference room is booked.  The big conference

10     room upstairs is available only between 2.00 and 4.00, and therefore it

11     was suggested that why don't we use a courtroom.  And it turns out that

12     Courtroom III is available this afternoon, so the deal is therefore that

13     we'll meet informally, that is, not robed, in Courtroom III and use it as

14     a conference room simply for this afternoon's meeting, and that will give

15     us also the advantage of being able to use the computers.  We had

16     anticipated that we would start the meeting at 2.00, so we could either

17     stop five minutes before and have a 20-minutes' break, or we could simply

18     say that we'll stop at a quarter to 2.00 and then just not begin the

19     meeting until 2.15.  I don't know which -- it seems to me to be more

20     gentle to have half an hour's lunch break.  So maybe we should

21     re-schedule and say that the meeting will start at 2.15 in Courtroom III.

22     Is that acceptable to the parties?

23             MS. KORNER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Certainly, Your Honour.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 1421

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 2     the document that I asked for, 1D00-0755.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, can you please look at the document.  This is an

 4     excerpt of the minutes from the 33rd meeting of the Crisis Staff, and it

 5     was held on the 22nd of June, 1992, and your signature is at the bottom.

 6     Do you recall this document?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   So it's your document?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Document that you signed?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this document?

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, as with the last document, it would be

15     useful to indicate the connection.  It will be admitted.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, no, again, Your Honours, this is the very

17     same situation and I have, like, ten other documents precisely the same

18     and for the same purpose.  Your Honours, one thing I believe should be

19     said.  There is no objection from the Prosecution side.  That would

20     suggest that the Prosecutor is fine with this document, and I'm just --

21     I'm just still getting this --

22             JUDGE HALL:  Please don't misunderstand me.  The Chamber isn't

23     saying that it shouldn't be admitted.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  It's just that in the process of admitting it, it

Page 1422

 1     would be useful where it is obvious what the relevance is to indicate the

 2     purpose at this stage while you were -- while you're seeking -- while

 3     you're tendering it to indicate why it's being admitted.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I tried to explain.  Maybe I should

 5     endeavour a bit more.  The purpose of introducing these documents is to

 6     create the body of evidence which will be commented and shown to the

 7     expert -- to the OTP expert, Ms. Dorothea Hanson, and she's -- precisely

 8     for the purpose of explaining the Crisis Staff, she would be called to

 9     appear before the Trial Chamber and comment.

10             JUDGE HALL:  And that holds good for each of these ten documents?

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, that's right, Your Honour.  I thought that you

12     understood -- I meant as a whole body of documents I have I believe 15

13     documents, except one or two they're all of the same provenance.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.  The lack of understanding

15     is personal to me.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

17             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, why don't you then just throw the

19     whole batch at us, just in one cut we can take it all rather than having

20     to -- if what you're saying is that you will bring up each of these

21     documents at a later stage with Mrs. Hanson and during your

22     cross-examination of Mrs. Hanson and using these documents, then we will

23     be led to understand why they're relevant.  If that is the case, then

24     let's just have them all in one batch now.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Your Honours, there are two things:  Should

Page 1423

 1     I do it as a bar table motion?

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This is a matter of simple choice.  You can do it

 3     through this witness if you feel comfortable with that and he is the

 4     author of them so it's perfectly legitimate to have them come in through

 5     him, or you can do it as a bar table motion -- my suggestion was just to

 6     save time.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, I understand.  I'm perfectly willing to

 8     accommodate the Trial Chamber.  I'm just wondering how to do it.  I have

 9     the hard copies with me, so maybe I can give the hard copies of these

10     documents to the witness, witness reviews them for, like, couple of

11     minutes just to see if it's the minutes of the Crisis Staff, his

12     signatures, and then I list, and then I read all these -- all their

13     numbers, and they're admitted as exhibits with the appropriate exhibit

14     number, if that is okay with the Prosecution.

15             MS. KORNER:  I have absolutely no objection to that course at

16     all.  I suggest also that we really ought to discuss in the 65 ter

17     conference this business of explanations being given.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So go ahead, Mr. Zecevic.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.

20             MS. KORNER:  Perhaps Mr. Zecevic could be kind enough just to

21     read out the numbers so that we know which they are.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  The document -- the first document is

23     1D00-763 [sic] -- I'll speak in Serbian, I'm sorry.

24             [Interpretation] Then 1D00-0775, 1D00-0777, 1D00-0779, 1D00-3447,

25     1D00-3118, 65 ter 00735, then 65 ter 00684 -- [In English] I suggest,

Page 1424

 1     Your Honours, while I'm reading this maybe the usher can give it to the

 2     usher so that he can review the documents if Ms. Korner has nothing

 3     against that.

 4             I suggested that I give the other documents to the witness for

 5     review while I read the --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-0785, 1D00-0787, 1D00-0791,

 8     and 1D00-0815.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's 12 documents in all, Your

11     Honours.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the exhibit numbers are therefore

13     1D26, 1D27, 1D28, 1D29, 1D30, 1D31, 1D32, 1D33, 1D34, 1D35, 1D36, 1D37,

14     and 1D38.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I proceed, Your Honours?

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation].

20        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, have you looked at these documents?  Are they all

21     documents of the Crisis Staff and then beginning with 1D00-0775, now

22     1D27 -- sorry, 1D28 is the first document related to the War Presidency,

23     starting with June, and all the later documents are documents of the War

24     Presidency.  Have you looked through all of them?

25        A.   I have glanced through them.  I haven't really reviewed them.

Page 1425

 1        Q.   Yes, but they are minutes of the sessions of the Crisis Staff and

 2     minutes of the War Presidency and you've signed a great number of them?

 3        A.   Yes, they are minutes of the Crisis Staff and War Presidency.  I

 4     signed most of them, not all, but I don't question their authenticity.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to bring the

 6     documents back to me.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djekanovic.  Could you tell me, in addition to the

 8     fact that you were a deputy to the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 9     you were also a deputy to the Assembly of Republika Srpska; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In your examination-in-chief my learned friend asked you whether

12     you had attended the session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska of the

13     12th of May in Banja Luka, and you confirmed; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Tell me, these Assembly sessions, you did not attend them only

16     when it was impossible to go there because roads were blocked, that's May

17     through July 1992, until the corridor was made in north Bosnia?

18        A.   Yes, I don't know how many sessions I missed in that period.

19        Q.   You touched upon in the direct examination the situation in Kotor

20     Varos municipality in the period May through July 1992.  Tell me, in the

21     second half of June and in July, was there electricity available?

22        A.   Most of the time not.

23        Q.   When you say "most of the time," do you mean really most of the

24     time or on most of the territory or both?

25        A.   Most of the time in a large part of the territory, and in some

Page 1426

 1     areas not at all.  I know that because we had huge problems with

 2     water-supply, and we had to mount aggregates and pumps and supply water

 3     in this way to cities and towns.  I know it also from many other things

 4     such as sessions.

 5        Q.   Tell me, telephone lines were also cut off; right?

 6        A.   The greatest part of that period, no telephone communications

 7     were available at all.  Only later did we establish one telephone line

 8     through the post office in Banja Luka, but that was much later.  In those

 9     first days we had no telephones at all.

10        Q.   You mean to say that there was one telephone line -- first of

11     all, at the beginning there was no communication with the outside world,

12     and then later one telephone line was established for the whole of the

13     municipality; correct?

14        A.   Yes, I'm talking about the whole of the municipality.

15        Q.   So your only means of communication, apart from your physical

16     ability or inability to leave the municipality and then only to Banja

17     Luka, was this one telephone that was made to work?

18        A.   Yes, in that period, yes.

19        Q.   If I understood you correctly in your direct examination it was

20     not safe to travel because there were ambushes along roads and other

21     dangers?

22        A.   In June the road between Kotor Varos and Banja Luka was not safe

23     at all.  A number of people were wounded, even killed, especially the

24     fork-offs towards Grabovica and other places where ambushes were set up

25     daily.

Page 1427

 1        Q.   They were set up by the Muslim and the Croat armies; correct?

 2        A.   That's quite clear, armed forces who were not with us and there

 3     were other troops beside them.

 4        Q.   So the situation in the municipality in June and July 1992, if I

 5     understood correctly what you said now, first you had no power, no

 6     telephone communication, and the fact that there was no electricity makes

 7     it difficult to supply water.  And you also had the problem of refugees

 8     coming from villages across the municipality to the town of Kotor Varos?

 9        A.   We had a problem with refugees who escaped along the front lines

10     towards town.  We had the problem of fuel.  We had had refugees in Kotor

11     Varos from before, refugees from Croatia, and why did they come to Kotor

12     Varos?  Because in 1970s they bought land in Kotor Varos -- sorry, they

13     had bought land in Croatia and moved there, but when things got rough

14     there they returned to Kotor Varos.

15        Q.   When you speak of those refugees from Croatia, you mean Serbs who

16     had lived in Croatia?

17        A.   Yes, Serbs who had fled from Croatia to Kotor Varos.

18        Q.   However, in addition to Serb refugees, there were also Croat and

19     Muslim refugees; right?

20        A.   In June, certainly.  As I said in my previous testimony, people

21     were leaving their villages and looking for a safe place, looking for

22     protection from us in the municipality.  Some of them asked us to

23     transport them - some people would call it escorting them out.  Anyway,

24     they wanted safe accommodation until transport was available, and there

25     were cases when Muslim families or Croat families from more remote

Page 1428

 1     villages would come to town and find accommodation in the houses of their

 2     compatriots.

 3        Q.   When you say "protection," they were seeking protection from the

 4     war, from the conflicts that had engulfed their villages?

 5        A.   Yes, that was a by-product of armed conflict.  There were always

 6     people coming with completely different intentions, but most of them were

 7     people who fled before armed conflict.

 8        Q.   Can you tell us approximately how many refugees you had in Kotor

 9     Varos, the ratio of refugees to the population, the pre-war population?

10        A.   In certain periods there were over 1.000 or 1500 refugees of Serb

11     ethnicity, those from Croatia, from the Travnik municipality and some

12     parts of our own municipality.  And as for refugees who had just fled to

13     save their lives of other ethnicities, those refugees did not stay with

14     us long; they were just waiting for transport to other places and they

15     were provisionally accommodated.  We've discussed this at length here.

16        Q.   When you mention the sawing mill in direct examination, you were

17     shown Exhibit P46, and you confirmed that the Crisis Staff had

18     established that collection centre?

19        A.   We had come to an agreement that we had no better accommodation

20     to offer.  It used to be a restaurant, the cafeteria, the canteen of this

21     sawing mill, and there were also some workshops empty of equipment

22     available for accommodation.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now show the witness P66.

24        Q.   You remember this map where you marked the location of the public

25     security station.  I'm more interested now in that last photograph on the

Page 1429

 1     right showing the prison in Kotor Varos.  That is the remand prison next

 2     to the court building, isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes, that was a prison used for a certain period before 1970 as a

 4     remand facility, and from then until 1992 it was simply not used.  In

 5     1992 it was again re-activated as a detention facility and has never been

 6     used as anything else but a prison.

 7        Q.   But as a remand prison; right?

 8        A.   Yes, as a remand prison.  It's just behind the court building.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  This prison in Maslovare on the territory of your

10     municipality, it was a military prison, wasn't it?

11        A.   Frankly, I don't remember any prisons in Maslovare.  I know that

12     some people were taken there.  I don't know whether they spent the night,

13     but they were not there for long.  It was a military prison because there

14     was no police and especially no court guards.

15        Q.   Maybe it's my mistake.  Maybe it was not a prison.  Maybe it was

16     a collection centre, but at any rate it was under military control?

17        A.   Yes, it was under military control.

18        Q.   Thank you.  During your direct examination you will remember that

19     my learned friend asked you about that fire at the Catholic church, it

20     was the 9th of October, page 73 of the transcript, lines 16 through 23,

21     you do remember, don't you?

22        A.   I remember the incident.  I remember being asked about it.

23        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, do you know that the public security station

24     filed a criminal complaint to the competent prosecutor's office after

25     that prosecutor's office had been set up pertaining to that incident?

Page 1430

 1        A.   It's possible that I knew about it, but I can't recall it now.

 2     At any rate, I know about the fire.  I know that we responded.  I

 3     remember we did something but I can't recall what.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can you show 1D00-0821.  Could we

 5     zoom in a little.  Could I have the Serbian version, please.  No, this

 6     is -- that's a different document.  I need 1D00-0821.  The English

 7     document is correct but not the Serbian one.  Used to be the right one,

 8     but then you pulled it down.  That's the document.

 9        Q.   First of all, let me ask you, when was the prosecutor's office

10     established and when did it become operative in Kotor Varos municipality

11     after May-June 1992, if you remember?

12        A.   I cannot remember the exact dates.  I'm not even sure it ever

13     stopped working.  The judicial and prosecution authorities worked

14     continuously, I think, and the reason I remember this is I remember

15     discussions about who's going to be the prosecutor, who's going to the

16     front line, et cetera, so I'm pretty sure that the judicial authorities

17     and the prosecution continued to work throughout.

18        Q.   Could you look at the criminal report on the left.  It's a

19     criminal complaint against an unidentified perpetrator or perpetrators

20     pursuant to Article 172, paragraph 1, in Article 177 causing public

21     danger at the detriment of the Roman Catholic church in Kotor Varos.

22     Have you seen this document before?

23        A.   No, this is the first time.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness the

25     second page.

Page 1431

 1        Q.   Just one question, this document was signed by Savo Tepic, chief

 2     of SUP; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, he was chief at the time, and I think I see his signature.

 4        Q.   Attached to this criminal report is an Official Note, saying that

 5     on the 2nd July 1992 at 12.30 a report was received that the Roman

 6     Catholic church had been set on fire, and the whole incident is

 7     explained, and the Official Note bears this date; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you remember that the church was set on fire on the 2nd July,

10     is it your recollection?

11        A.   I can recollect the approximate time.  I can't say whether it was

12     the 2nd or the 5th, but I remember the day when it was set on fire.  I

13     know where I was then and how I reacted.

14        Q.   Do you have any reason to doubt that this Official Note is

15     correct?

16        A.   No reason whatsoever especially because this person who signed on

17     the document was an inspector of the police station, I remember that.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honours, that the

19     witness has provided sufficient explanation, and if there is no objection

20     from the Prosecution, I would like to tender this document.

21             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D39, Your Honours.

23             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   The last subject for today is the police.  On the first day of

25     your direct examination led by my learned friend Ms. Korner on page 56,

Page 1432

 1     date 8 October, line 10, you started saying that you had attended a

 2     meeting with the police with Ante Mandic.  My colleague asked you about

 3     it, but what can you remember about this meeting?  What was discussed

 4     with the police?  Anto Mandic was the president of the municipality and

 5     you were the president of the SDS?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And in this capacity you went to that meeting?

 8        A.   That meeting was held in the pensioners' community hall next to

 9     the church, and representatives of all agencies in Kotor Varos was

10     present.  And we went there as, let's say, political leaders.  But there

11     was also a representative from the SDA party, and we were also trying to

12     persuade each other and the police how law and order should be protected,

13     that everyone should stay on the police force and do their jobs.  We were

14     simply trying to maintain law and order together.  Let me just say again

15     something that I've mentioned before.  At the time when we were holding

16     this meeting attended by all representatives of the police, there was a

17     skirmish, an exchange of fire, before the pensioners' community hall.

18     There was this man Sprzo and some other people going along the streets,

19     firing into the air, running people down.  It was a general chase all

20     over town and shooting.

21        Q.   Yes, go ahead, but a little more slowly for the interpreters.

22        A.   That's just what I wanted to add.  That's this meeting, although

23     we had more than one meeting concerning the need to maintain law and

24     order, the community spirit, et cetera.  But we said one thing at

25     meetings and quite another thing happened in practice.

Page 1433

 1             MR. PANTELIC:  The person who shooted [sic] at the pensioners'

 2     hall, it was a member of HVO.  Maybe we could clarify that with the

 3     witness because it is not in the transcript I think.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, you heard my colleague.  You mentioned the name

 6     of that gentleman, member of the HVO, who while you were having that

 7     meeting in the pensioners' hall led a group of HVO that shooted [as

 8     interpreted] from fire-arms.  Could you just say his name slowly?

 9        A.   We all called him Sprzo.  We all knew him as Sprzo.  I think his

10     real name was Maric.  He shot not at the pensioners' hall, but he did

11     shoot at the building and in the air.  And members of the police went out

12     and, like, walked him along.  You can imagine what kind of scene that

13     was.  Mandic and I stayed together for quite a while after that meeting

14     in the pensioners' hall.  We had coffee and a few drinks, and we tried to

15     find solutions, and both of us saw that things were not funny anymore.

16     It was the month of May.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, the chief of the public security station was

18     Savo Tepic at the time?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   He came to the position of chief of SJB after the elections in

21     1990 and in keeping with the election agreement between national parties;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   That would mean that Savo Tepic took over as chief of the public

25     security station of Kotor Varos in 1990?

Page 1434

 1        A.   Yes, as soon as the parties agreed and the new authorities were

 2     put in place, Savo Tepic took over as chief of the police station

 3     immediately.

 4        Q.   That means that his election as chief of SJB was supported both

 5     by HDZ and the SDA parties.  It was an agreement?

 6        A.   Yes, it was an agreement.  Everybody supported his election.

 7     Nobody had objected.

 8        Q.   The actual decision to appoint him as chief of the public

 9     security station of Kotor Varos was issued by the Ministry of the

10     Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, headed by

11     Minister Alija Delimustafic, who belonged to the SDA party, the Party of

12     Democratic Action?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you remember at that time were there any objections from

15     Sarajevo, from the government, from the ministry, to the election of Savo

16     Tepic as chief of the security station in Kotor Varos?

17        A.   No, no, I don't remember any objections.  There was only one

18     suggestion, namely, that it would be desirable to have a person graduated

19     in humanities rather than engineering.  Savo was an engineer.  And they

20     wanted three nominees for that position.

21        Q.   In other words, Savo Tepic, when he was appointed in 1990 by the

22     ministry, which was headed by minister Alija Delimustafic, who was a

23     member of the SDA party, he was an engineer who basically had no

24     experience with policing whatsoever at the time, at least directly, yes

25     or no?

Page 1435

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   When conflict erupted, that is, in May-June 1992, Savo Tepic

 3     remained chief and which had -- in the position where he had been since

 4     1990; right?

 5        A.   Right, he did.

 6        Q.   There were no changes to that effect, were there?

 7        A.   No, no changes as to the chief of the police station.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No more questions for this witness.

10        Q.   Thank you for providing these answers, and I apologise to you

11     that you had to wait so long.  It wasn't up to us and nor was it the will

12     of the Chamber.  It was merely a result of circumstance.

13             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djekanovic.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

17        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic.  On behalf of the Defence of Stojan

18     Zupljanin, I'm going to ask you a few questions.  I apologise for saying

19     "Slobodan" instead of "Stojan."  We tend to get -- we tend to confuse

20     those two names.  So I'm going to ask you a few questions about your

21     previous testimony and about your testimony that you gave today.

22     Mr. Djekanovic, in replying to the questions of my learned friend,

23     Mr. Zecevic, about the events preceding the outbreak of conflict in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you spoke about the session held on the 14th of

25     October, 1991, you said so to the Prosecutor when the Serbian Members of

Page 1436

 1     Parliament walked out of the parliament hall because they were down voted

 2     by Muslim and Croat Members of Parliament.  Do you remember those events?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   It is the position of the Defence that that very event, that down

 5     voting, was the crucial moment because the constitutional rights of the

 6     Serbian people had been infringed upon, and that's what incited the

 7     avalanche in Bosnia-Herzegovina, do you agree with me?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   As far as I understood what went on at that time in

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, with regard to the position of the Serbian people the

11     members of the Muslim-Croat coalition had a similar plan as to that which

12     had been going on in Croatia previously.  First they changed the

13     constitution and deleted the Serbs from the constitution as a

14     constitutive people in Croatia, and thereby deprived them of their basic

15     rights; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   And that started the avalanche of conflict in Croatia, and so

18     that similar scenario was to be expected in Bosnia-Herzegovina and it was

19     obviously being prepared; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes, for Bosnia-Herzegovina too.  There had been several attempts

21     to preserve -- at least Bosnia or keep it within Yugoslavia.  You

22     probably remember Muhamed Filipovic who tried to strike agreements in

23     Belgrade but there were other initiatives too, but they all came to

24     nothing, and things developed in the direction that you outlined.

25        Q.   And the constituting of the Serbian republic of

Page 1437

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina and all these organs was a direct outcome of that

 2     parliamentary session and the behaviour of the Muslim-Croat coalition; is

 3     that correct?

 4        A.   Absolutely, it was a direct outcome and -- because the

 5     constitution of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had been

 6     infringed upon.

 7        Q.   You spoke about the constituting of your own Serbian Assembly and

 8     the attempts to protect the rights of Serbs and organise themselves

 9     better within Bosnia-Herzegovina to the extent it was possible; correct?

10        A.   Yes, but I would like to add that in my sincere opinion we had

11     always been forced to do things.  We were always lagging behind things.

12     We never had the initiative to start something.  We always reacted to

13     something that had already happened.

14        Q.   And in reality with regard to the coalition agreement after the

15     multi-party elections, you as a member of your party did not expect the

16     subsequent development and you weren't prepared?

17        A.   No, the SDS was not prepared.

18        Q.   And what I have briefly outlined is your conviction and your view

19     of the events in which you took part and which you witnessed; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, speaking about the establishment of Crisis

22     Staffs, I may have overlooked something but I believe that you answered

23     to the Prosecutor that Crisis Staffs had been established in the Kotor

24     Varos municipality much before these events, namely, the arrival of

25     refugees from Croatia; isn't that so?

Page 1438

 1        A.   Yes, some form of Crisis Staff we had much earlier, both us and

 2     the others, earlier than the dates that are mentioned as the dates of

 3     establishment because we had -- we had taken action before that.

 4        Q.   And you met for the first time to try to help the refugees who

 5     were coming from Croatia in the course of 1991; right?

 6        A.   The first concrete activity was helping to accommodate these

 7     people and the municipal organisation of the Red Cross, gathering aid for

 8     those people such as food, clothing, et cetera.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, can you explain the Chamber the notion of Crisis

10     Staff?  It goes to mean that it's a body that established in a crisis

11     situation, others -- in an extraordinary circumstances, when things are

12     beyond normal.  So that is the essence of both the name and of the

13     function of the Crisis Staff, irregular circumstances; right?

14        A.   Yes, absolutely.  So there must be extraordinary circumstances

15     and events.

16        Q.   And the establishment of the Crisis Staff you understood to be an

17     activity to ensure normal functioning of the municipality and its bodies

18     until regular -- regular bodies are established; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes, absolutely.

20        Q.   And in the work of the Crisis Staff and the subsequent period,

21     not only members of the SDS took part in that but also persons who were

22     not SDS members; is that correct?

23        A.   SDS membership was not essential.  We wanted people who worked in

24     certain areas, who did certain jobs, but I would like to add that once

25     the conflict started in Croatia we then had legal authorities in Kotor

Page 1439

 1     Varos.  But a dozen people or so had already been killed in Croatia as

 2     fighters fighting in the ranks of the JNA who -- which was established

 3     under the laws and the constitution of the SFRY.  So we had people from

 4     Kotor Varos who had been killed, and we also took -- we also took care of

 5     such activities in order to assist the families of those killed to bury

 6     their dead.

 7        Q.   But the municipal bodies of the -- of Kotor Varos were not able

 8     to get involved, but you tried to assist the families in burying their

 9     dead?

10        A.   Yes, that's what we did because the -- in -- the municipality

11     prefect did not want us to do anything so that the executive committee of

12     the municipality did not pass any decision to that effect.  So we as a

13     Crisis Staff assisted the families to bury their killed family members.

14        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, I'll try to make an effort, but you make an

15     effort too because we speak the same language for behalf of -- or rather

16     for the sake of the Chamber.

17        A.   Yes, I understand.  I will make an effort.

18        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, in replying to the Prosecutor's question you

19     confirmed that on the 12th of May, 1992, you attended the Assembly of the

20     Republika Srpska in Banja Luka.  Do you remember speaking about that

21     session?  When the VRS was founded and a number of important decisions

22     for the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina was passed; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, I said that I attended that session, but what was decided

24     there was brought -- was brought to my mind again only after seeing the

25     relevant minutes.  But yes, I was there and I know what happened.

Page 1440

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up on e-court

 2     Exhibit P74.

 3             Your Honours, we have a problem with e-court here.  Mr. Pantelic

 4     took part in resolving the problem that we had with the OTP, but there is

 5     a part which is not in e-court and it is important for this questioning

 6     today.  So Mr. Pantelic, who was involved in correcting the error in

 7     e-court will now take over.

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  [Previous translation continues]...  with our

 9     learned friends from OTP, and Mr. Smith told us that it will be

10     corrected -- actually, what we see here on the screen are the original

11     minutes of the whole session of the Assembly, but prior to this page we

12     have four pages of actually minutes in shortened form with agenda.  So we

13     have it in English language, these four pages, but apparently they are

14     missing in B/C/S language.  So for the purpose of the next numbers I

15     think -- questions, maybe our friend from OTP can --

16             MS. KORNER:  We're just checking.  It's quite right, it was

17     brought to our attention.  We're just checking to see whether it was

18     corrected.  It may not have been corrected.

19             MR. PANTELIC:  In any case what I could suggest is that we could

20     have on e-court pages -- previous pages of the document in English, the

21     ERN number is 0091-3501 up to 04.  So we could have English version and

22     then with the help of interpreters maybe my friend can just brought

23     attention of this witness to certain portions and then we could have it

24     in transcript.  And then on a later stage our friends I'm sure will

25     download this --

Page 1441

 1             MS. KORNER:  I'm afraid we can't --

 2             MR. PANTELIC:  -- few pages in B/C/S.  I think that would be a

 3     solution.

 4             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, what happened was that what we did

 5     originally is we took out the English pages so that the B/C/S and English

 6     corresponded.  We haven't yet put back the English and the B/C/S.  So at

 7     the moment, I'm sorry, I'm afraid we can't assist.

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  It can be resolved like that.  My friend will go

 9     through these particular points, and then the witness will comment, and

10     then in later stage they can put.  Thank you so much.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, could now

12     please ERN number 0091-3501 be called up.

13        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, this is what this is about, there is a minor

14     mismatch between the English translation and the original because the

15     agenda is missing.  I want to show you a part of the agenda and the

16     decision that was taken with regard to that.

17             MS. KORNER:  Okay.  We can pull up the B/C/S but we can't pull up

18     the English at that moment, I'm afraid.  We've got the first few pages in

19     B/C/S, so it's going to have to be the other way around -- oh, it's in

20     Sanction at the moment.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Under item 3, confirmation of the decisions and

23     other regulations passed by the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

24     BiH.  Do you remember that some of these were actually confirmed at this

25     parliamentary session?  I will later continue.

Page 1442

 1        A.   Yes, that was the practice for the Assembly to confirm the

 2     decisions that the Presidency had passed at a moment when the Assembly --

 3     when it wasn't possible to call an Assembly.  But I can hardly remember

 4     any one particular decision, but yes that was the practice to proceed

 5     that way.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us see the next page of this

 7     document, please.  The next page.  The B/C/S version differs from the

 8     English copy that I have in my hand, so the next page, please.

 9             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, we need the third page.

11             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, do look what it says under item 7, the decision

14     on the proclamation of imminent threat of war.  That is one of decisions

15     that was confirmed by the Assembly, that there is an imminent threat of

16     war in the territory of the Republika Srpska?

17        A.   As far as I see, item 7 reads that the Assembly adopted the bill

18     about the amendments of the law on people's defence.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat.  The

20     interpreter didn't hear the question.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You remember that there was discussion about taking some measures

23     about this decision?

24        A.   There was much decision about this item.  I know that there was

25     much discussion about why not to immediately proclaim the state of war

Page 1443

 1     rather than an imminent threat of war, but I don't remember the details

 2     anyway.  This is what it was about.

 3        Q.   For the sake of the interpretation I must repeat once more.  So

 4     here at this session the decision on the proclamation of the imminent

 5     threat of war in the territory of Republika Srpska was passed; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, as far as the situation is concerned I will now

 9     take you back to the start of wartime activities in the municipality of

10     Kotor Varos.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since this document

12     should be an exhibit, I believe that we can resolve the issue in direct

13     communication with the OTP.  So for these documents to become part of

14     Exhibit P47, so that for the time being I will not tender this part of

15     the document if that is acceptable.  I see that the OTP are nodding in

16     agreement.

17        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, you were saying in replying to the questions

18     asked by both the OTP and Mr. Zecevic, you were speaking about the

19     conflicts in the municipality of Kotor Varos in 1992.  Let me take you

20     back to the start.  It is obvious that all the events that happened in

21     June were preceded by tension and sporadic conflicts among members of all

22     three ethnicities in Kotor Varos, the municipality?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And all three sides had set up guards, barricades, everybody was

25     mindful to protect their village or hamlet or street because there was an

Page 1444

 1     atmosphere of fear, as there had already been conflicts in Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina; isn't that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, and this also calls for an amendment.  Both I and Anto

 4     Mandic and Fikret, from SDA, Abdic did visit the guards because we knew

 5     where -- who had guards where.  SDA had some guards in the streets that

 6     they controlled, and that man stayed at Kotor Varos throughout the war.

 7     I will not say that he didn't have any problems, but he didn't have

 8     problems that could have occurred, fortunately.

 9        Q.   Do slow down a little because the interpreters cannot keep up

10     with you.

11        A.   Sorry, I got carried away.

12        Q.   Yes, I understand you, but I have to remind you to go a bit

13     slower.  Could you please repeat this part.

14        A.   Yes.  So everybody had their guards.  In the town itself the

15     guards were separated.  There were attempts to have joint guards, but

16     that didn't succeed, but we knew who had guards in which streets.  And I

17     said that on one occasion or several, but I do remember one clearly we

18     went to see those guards together, and we went to the Muslim guards in

19     lower Kotor Varos.  So that was the situation at the time.  Everybody had

20     their own guards, they were -- everybody was scared, but unfortunately

21     everybody was also preparing for the worst, namely, for war.

22        Q.   And before the events of mid-June 1992, there were movements of

23     the population so that some Serb inhabitants of the outskirts of the

24     municipality that were encircled by Croatian villages started moving into

25     Kotor Varos; isn't that correct?

Page 1445

 1        A.   Yes, there were such instances.

 2        Q.   You spoke about the 11th of June here as the date when the

 3     Serbian forces decided to take full control, let's say in the

 4     municipality of Kotor Varos.  Can you tell us something about the

 5     incidents that preceded these events and what was the immediate cause for

 6     the decision to take control in the municipality of Kotor Varos?  Do you

 7     recall the incidents that preceded that act?  I'm going to focus you on

 8     two of them, the one in Sipovici and the one in Vasiljevici, can you tell

 9     us anything about that?

10        A.   Yes, there were other things happening in the course of May,

11     other than those two incidents.  There was an attempt by all three of the

12     national parties to organise a public forum where we were supposed to

13     assemble the public intelligence and the political elite of Kotor Varos

14     and to make an effort to avoid the war conflict.  The idea was to hold

15     this meeting in the Kotor Varos cinema, but the SDA and the HDZ went

16     behind our backs and made a completely different arrangement.  So instead

17     of setting it up in the cinema in Kotor Varos they organised it in the

18     sports stadium of Kotor Varos and invited their own sympathisers.  So

19     there was a lot of provocations that took place, and then behind that

20     location armed members of the HVO were walking around and stories were

21     already circulating in town almost every evening how these two parties

22     would take over power in Kotor Varos at the time this evening or that

23     evening.  In any case, there was a lot of fear among all sides.  And then

24     the prevailing opinion on our side was that it was about time to do

25     something ourselves instead of getting caught out.  Before that things

Page 1446

 1     happened, not only the ones that you referred to, there were barricades

 2     being set up in several places, the ones followed by ultimatums.  And I

 3     recall very well that I went with members of the police, with Anto

 4     Mandic, to this village of Vecici to speak with people and how it was

 5     difficult to get out there of that village.  People were up in the trees

 6     and there were barricades so it was difficult to get out.  And then this

 7     killing of this family happened.  I don't remember the exact date, and I

 8     think the court case is being brought to its completion for the murder of

 9     a family in Glamoc by the courts in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10             There were killings also in other hamlets and villages around

11     Vecici.  There were small settlements or hamlets settled by Serbs, and so

12     there were some shootings and provocations happening in those areas too.

13        Q.   Just one correction, we're talking about the killing of the

14     Glamocak family, not a family from Glamoc.  So we're talking about the

15     killing of the Glamocak family in the village of Sipovi [as interpreted].

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And they were of Serb ethnicity; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you know that a person called Neskobic [phoen] was sentenced

20     to the Bosnia and Herzegovina court to a sentence of nine years.  I read

21     this in the newspaper.  Does that refer to this incident?

22        A.   Yes, it does refer to this incident.  I don't know if this was a

23     final decision, but I know that a judgement was passed and the sentence

24     too.  I don't know if the person is actually -- has began to serve his

25     sentence.

Page 1447

 1        Q.   And then this killing in the village of Vasiljevici, this

 2     happened sometime before the take-over of power?

 3        A.   Vasiljevici is a hamlet above the village of Vecici and this is

 4     where the killing happened in that period of time.  The communication

 5     with the municipality -- actually, the road passed through the village of

 6     Vecici that led to our municipality --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated].

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, before Mr. Krgovic continues, can I

12     just raise one matter.  I've discussed this with my learned friends in

13     the break.  Mr. Zecevic concluded his cross-examination without putting

14     to the witness at all that when he said - and I'm looking at the

15     transcript on the 8th of October, Thursday, at page 1101 and 1102 - that

16     the Crisis Staff did not have the authority to order the police, we could

17     not issue orders to the police.  We did not have the right to do that.

18     That was not challenged, and I asked if that evidence was accepted

19     because if it's not challenged we're entitled to assume it's accepted,

20     and Mr. Zecevic says it is not accepted.  In which case I said that then

21     that must be put to the witness that he's not right when he says that.

22     And I understand Mr. Zecevic has a problem with that which perhaps he can

23     explain.  But, Your Honours, I think it's important that this is dealt

24     with now.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, there are two aspects of this.

Page 1448

 1     Aspect number one is I believe during the cross-examination the witness

 2     said -- I cannot find it right now in the transcript, but if you give me

 3     some time I will.  I was asking him, "Did you have the overall power as a

 4     Crisis Staff on the municipality?"  He says, "Yes, except for the

 5     military matters."  That is -- as far as I am concerned that is actually

 6     counter to what he said in the direct examination, where he was saying

 7     that he didn't control either the police or the military.  Today he said

 8     only military.  As far as I'm concerned, this is a challenge of what he

 9     says -- what he said to my learned friend in the -- during the direct --

10     cross-examination.  Therefore, I didn't want to pursue the matter

11     anymore.  We had the documents which confirmed that they were giving, in

12     fact, orders to the police.  That's one aspect.

13             The other aspect, Your Honours, again we're coming back to the

14     issue of he -- him being a suspect.  If I ask him, "Did you control --

15     did you order the police?"  And he says, "Yes," he's incriminating

16     himself.  I mean, this has to be again in a sense addressed.  We need to

17     know how to proceed in these situations.  That is my comment.  Thank you.

18             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I mean -- I can certainly deal

19     if Mr. Zecevic and Your Honours take the view that that's sufficient, we

20     controlled everybody except the military say the police, then I can deal

21     with that in re-examination and go back to what on the face of it is now

22     contradictory answers.  But I don't think that in itself is sufficient to

23     put to a witness that a clear and one of the few unambiguous statements

24     he made is not accepted.  So that's the first thing.

25             As to the second point, Your Honours, with the greatest of

Page 1449

 1     respect I don't think Your Honours should be considering what any

 2     position may be in any other court.  For the moment I'm just leaving it.

 3     I'm hoping to get information to put before Your Honours to show that any

 4     suggestion that this can be used, that answers which might incriminate

 5     him and which he's told to answer in this court can be used against him

 6     in subsequent proceedings in another court is incorrect.  I've made

 7     certain inquiries to confirm my own knowledge, but at the moment I can't

 8     put something before Your Honours.  But it's absolutely clear in any

 9     event in the law that Mr. Zecevic quoted to you that evidence can be

10     excluded if it is more prejudicial than probative and clearly if an

11     answer was, as it were, forced out, he was forced to answer a question

12     which might incriminate him that would come within that aspect of the

13     law.

14             But in any event we would argue that what may happen in another

15     court is not for Your Honours to concern yourself with at the moment.

16     But, Your Honours, I think the better point is:  Do Your Honours feel

17     that that is sufficient that today he only mentioned the military and not

18     the police in the light of what he said earlier and I believe said twice

19     in chief?

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner and Mr. Zecevic, obviously the

22     control which the Crisis Staff had over the police is an essential issue.

23     This is very obvious from the case, so we thought that it might actually

24     be helpful to the Chamber if that point could be taken up just to clarify

25     the answer that he gave to you this morning because we all -- it turns

Page 1450

 1     out that all three Judges took exactly that note, that he said that he

 2     had control over everything except the military.  So I think if we can

 3     ask Mrs. Korner to bring it up and to clarify with the witness while he's

 4     here and -- but to do so in a manner that doesn't lure him into a trap

 5     that may later on be held against him if criminal proceedings are raised

 6     in other courts.  I -- I'm not going to engage in a discussion about this

 7     fact, but I think that there is a potential for using testimonies before

 8     this Tribunal as evidence in other courts.  So I think Mr. Zecevic during

 9     his cross-examination steered very skillfully around the issues that

10     might become difficult for the witness later on --

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, -- yes, I'm sorry, but he didn't -- he

12     doesn't -- I don't think he wants the answer, as I wouldn't if I were

13     defending.  But as Your Honours say, it's such an important matter that

14     if the Defence case is he is not telling the truth or is mistaken about

15     that, it has to be properly put.  But -- and proceedings in other courts,

16     I'm afraid, should not be troubling this Trial Chamber because although

17     of course were he could be prosecuted for his part in these events, what

18     he says here will go.  The judges there do have a discretion under their

19     laws to exclude evidence.  And I'm aware that that has been done, and I

20     can put it no higher than that at the moment.  But my point is simply,

21     and it's one that will affect future witnesses, if something is not

22     accepted by a defendant of such importance to an issue in the case then

23     it must be put in clear terms.  But I am perfectly willing to deal with

24     this in re-examination.  My only query is what happens if in

25     re-examination he says now I couldn't give orders and that's not the

Page 1451

 1     case.

 2             But anyhow, Your Honours, there's one other matter which the

 3     Registrar raised with me, apparently he's due to fly back this afternoon.

 4     I do have to deal with that in re-examination and two other matters which

 5     he dealt with that came out as a result of cross-examination.  I don't

 6     know how much longer Mr. Krgovic has got, but it seems to me he may not

 7     be able to fly back if we're stopping at quarter to 2.00.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  There is -- there are 60 minutes left,

 9     Mr. Krgovic.  How much time do you need?

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  I will do my best, Your Honour, to conclude my

11     cross-examination before the break.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That is to say you're going to use the next hour?

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  Probably.  Depends on the answer, but I got -- the

14     very narrow issues of the case.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  I mean, in that case he won't be able

16     to leave?  We're sorry we have to contact --

17             MS. KORNER:  No, he won't unless we use -- the only suggestion I

18     had, Your Honours, is if we've got Court III and if we're going to have

19     interpreters perhaps we could finish him off at 2.15 this afternoon if

20     it's just ten minutes' worth of re-examination.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The Registrar informs us that it will take too

23     long time to set up Courtroom III for this purpose.  So the only way in

24     which we can conclude his testimony is by, once again, turning to the

25     interpreters.  And I'm really not very happy about having to do that

Page 1452

 1     because I think the interpreters are carrying such a huge load for us and

 2     I would feel bad about having to ask them once again to sit here for

 3     another half hour or whatever it takes to finish it.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Obviously, he'll have to stay and just be here for

 5     tomorrow morning then.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm afraid so.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated]

 9             MS. KORNER:  No, I think, Your Honour -- obviously this is

10     important, as Your Honours realise.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So we will adjourn at 1.45, as scheduled, and

12     hope that we can then finish Witness 181 off tomorrow morning.

13             Mr. Krgovic.

14             MR. KRGOVIC:  Unfortunately, the witness is not here.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, let us continue where we left off before the

18     break.  Just one clarification.  When I asked you about the villages and

19     the incident in the village of Vasiljevici specifically, the village of

20     Vasiljevici is a Serb village, isn't it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And the shepherd who was killed in the village of Vasiljevici was

23     a Serb, wasn't he?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, you spent a lot of time talking about the

Page 1453

 1     situation in Kotor Varos in 1992, and I'm going to just say in a few

 2     words how I understood your words.  It was war in the territory of

 3     municipality of Kotor Varos.  There were many people killed, wounded,

 4     refugees on all three sides.  Isn't that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Lack of consumer articles, the presence of different military

 7     formations in the municipality area, constant tension.  In brief it was

 8     an actual state of war, an actual war situation?

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   And the functioning of the municipal organs and all other organs

11     was guided by those conditions, wasn't it?

12        A.   Well, the situation corresponded to the conditions that

13     prevailed.  There was no agreement.  It was impossible to come to any

14     kind of decision.  The organs of power were not functioning.  I said that

15     the -- each chief of police was informing his own people in Sarajevo,

16     Banja Luka; the Croats were informing their people, I'm talking about the

17     police chiefs.  So it was a difficult situation and the war had engulfed

18     practically the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19        Q.   After the 11th of June, a fierce conflict broke out in the Kotor

20     Varos area as well?

21        A.   On the 11th of June you could really say that there were no

22     conflicts really.  There were no killings, no re-settlement of the

23     population.  Everybody was rallying around their own groups.  There were

24     no killings on the 11th itself, and that can even apply to the 12th.

25        Q.   But then after the combat began in the areas around Kotor Varos

Page 1454

 1     and Kotor Varos itself, general conflict broke out in the whole of the

 2     municipality?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And there were many casualties as a result of that conflict;

 5     isn't that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, there were many casualties.

 7        Q.   Now I'm just going to give you a piece of information speaking

 8     about the strength of the Croat-Muslim coalition.  It's a fact saying

 9     that 400 people were killed and 650 people were wounded during the combat

10     in Kotor Varos until the situation calmed down.  I'm speaking about

11     Serbian casualties.

12        A.   Yes, it's accurate data about the casualties.  I cannot really

13     tell you how many Serbs were killed in the territory of Croatia before

14     the conflicts here broke out, but overall there were about 400 killed

15     victims in the area of Kotor Varos and there was a large number of the

16     wounded, many of whom were actually civilians.

17        Q.   And this number who were actually killed in Croatia, I mean it's

18     about ten-odd people that we're talking about; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   After the situation calmed down somewhat in June, the

21     Muslim-Croat formations changed their tactics and began to set up

22     ambushes and carry out attacks along the roads, moving on to a kind of

23     guerilla-type conflict in the entire municipality of Kotor Varos; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1455

 1        Q.   And it was normal that the units of the Territorial Defence and

 2     the army had to carry out military actions in order to neutralise these

 3     units that were in the areas around Kotor Varos; is that correct?

 4        A.   For the first seven, eight, or ten days the line actually was in

 5     the town itself.  The Vrbanja river was a front line, and in the town

 6     itself we had people who were killed by sniper fire from snipers firing

 7     around -- positions around the town of Kotor Varos from neighbouring

 8     villages.

 9        Q.   As a result of those actions and the conflict between the

10     Croat-Muslim and Serb forces, the civilian population withdrew from those

11     villages and entered the town.  This is what I understood from your

12     testimony.  Is that correct?

13        A.   A smaller number of people came to town, where the bulk actually

14     through their representatives in the negotiations, sought to move out and

15     leave the area of the Kotor Varos municipality, and this is -- this

16     situation in which these convoys were formed which some people are

17     interpreting in this way and some people are interpreting in another way.

18     But we believed that they were the best way to protect a substantial part

19     of the population, and these convoys were the means by which people left

20     to other parts of the country.

21        Q.   It was essential to remove those people from combat zones because

22     the fighting there was continual and there were ambushes and attacks; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   Yes, it was essential and the people themselves wanted to leave

25     those areas.

Page 1456

 1        Q.   There were ambushes in that period in which Colonel Stevilovic

 2     was killed and Markovic who was a police official.  This was in an -- in

 3     a road ambush, and they were killed and massacred?

 4        A.   Yes, there was an ambush and the two of them were killed, along

 5     with one other civilian -- actually, they had given a ride to two

 6     civilians in their car.  The three of them were not only killed but they

 7     were butchered.  Their skulls were smashed.  The car was riddled with

 8     bullets and one of the civilians was captured and taken with the

 9     attackers, and he spent about a month or so on enemy territory.

10        Q.   And this was followed by a military action attacking Croat-Muslim

11     positions and the fighting continued, didn't it?

12        A.   Yes.  In any case there was a military response against the

13     Vecici settlement.  I don't remember whether it was on that occasion

14     because there was several attacks that ensued on that road where

15     civilians were killed and wounded.  In one of those attacks on the

16     village of Vecici a group was arrested.  I don't know how many of them,

17     but I did see them with my own eyes when they were brought in.  So a

18     group of soldiers was arrested.  Some were killed, some were arrested,

19     and after a long negotiation about the wounded soldiers they were brought

20     in a tractor-trailer which was loaded with a whole pile of bodies that

21     were scorched that had been in a fire that were massacred.

22        Q.   Another question that has to do with this area.  In Croat-Muslim

23     villages there were no conflicts.  You told the Prosecutor about those

24     villages, and you showed those villages on a map for the Prosecutor.

25     There was no movement of population or armed conflicts in those villages;

Page 1457

 1     is that correct?

 2        A.   Well, you couldn't say that nobody left those villages.

 3     Individually people did leave, but the bulk of villagers stayed in

 4     Siprage and Barici and other villages.  The bulk of those inhabitants

 5     stayed.  A significant portion of the Muslim population also remained in

 6     town.

 7        Q.   So I understand that what you understood of the situation is that

 8     Muslim civilians were evacuated only from those villages that were in

 9     conflict and those villages where there was no conflict no population

10     really left the villages?

11        A.   Yes, in any case nowhere were the civilians removed by force.  In

12     any place where stability could be maintained and where people wanted to

13     stay, they stayed.  I have firm evidence of that, I have witnesses, I

14     have written material and statement, but that is not the topic of what

15     we're talking about now.  In any case, there was security for those

16     people in Marici [as interpreted], in Siprage, people were in those

17     villages.  I don't know that any excess or any incident occurred.  I

18     haven't heard of anything out of the ordinary taking place in such

19     villages.  Mostly they were safe where they were.

20        Q.   As a result of the killing of those Serb civilians, the tensions

21     grew in town itself.  There was pressure from victims' families on you.

22     There were cases of retaliation and revenge against some members of the

23     Croat-Muslim forces.  Isn't that right?

24        A.   Unfortunately, that was the situation.  It was unbearable and

25     looking at it from now I think we did quite well to go through all of

Page 1458

 1     that.  I did refer to those families a couple of days ago during my

 2     testimony.  There were days when we would bury 12 or 16 people.  There

 3     was no day that would pass without funerals.  And on top of all the

 4     things that we had to do in that period most of our work actually had to

 5     do with organising funerals.

 6        Q.   And did you know what happened --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat his question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that was the result and

 9     a response, but I don't justify such a response.  But it did happen.

10     It's true that the evening before in this village of Kotor across the

11     Vrbanja river some people were killed.  While they were asleep a bomb was

12     thrown into the bedroom as they were sleeping and then there was this

13     reaction, military reaction in the morning.  And then as a consequence of

14     this military action is what happened among a sector of those people, but

15     I don't justify those actions in any way.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

17        Q.   My question was not recorded.  I asked about this incident in the

18     health centre.  Your reply was the reply to this question?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Local people were killed in their sleep, people from Kotor?

21        A.   Yes, a number of people were brought from Kotor where this

22     incident happened.

23        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, you described in your prior testimony the rising

24     of tensions between various police forces, military forces, lack of

25     coordination in their work, mutual apportioning of blame.  Was that what

Page 1459

 1     was happening in Kotor Varos?

 2        A.   Yes, especially in the last days of June -- sorry, the whole of

 3     June and the first ten days of July.  There was a great shortage of

 4     coordination and very poor linkage between forces in military operations.

 5        Q.   That made you quite angry.  What happened when one such action

 6     led to the death of a number of people because it was poorly coordinated?

 7        A.   Just one example.  It was another military action in that part of

 8     town near Kotor.  We had information that up to noon we were to expect

 9     our first military success.  Then a number of commanders went each their

10     own way, made themselves scarce.  Things ran out of control and things

11     took a completely different turn.  Some people got wounded, an ambulance

12     went to fetch them, the staff of the ambulance vehicle including the

13     driver was killed, some people were captured.  Complete chaos ensued in

14     town but also in the units on the territory of Kotor.

15        Q.   And that was why you addressed Stojan Zupljanin at that picnic,

16     that lunch you had, you mentioned it before?

17        A.   I addressed not only Stojan Zupljanin, but also Mr. Peu lic and

18     the other Zupljanin who was commander of some unit.  So it was a broader

19     discussion, not just one on one.

20        Q.   Just let me clarify this, although I understand it from your

21     interview and your testimony.  When you discussed all these matters, that

22     was the only conversation of that kind you had with Stojan Zupljanin?

23        A.   In that period, yes.

24        Q.   Yes, in 1992.

25        A.   Perhaps at some other points in 1992 towards the end we met more

Page 1460

 1     frequently when the Assembly started to work.  But in June and July, that

 2     was the only occasion I spoke to him apart from the contacts we had or

 3     were supposed to have through the War Presidency, and the chief of the

 4     public security station Savo Tepic also took part in this.  I don't

 5     remember that we had any more discussions on that topic.

 6        Q.   And this was practically the main subject because you were quite

 7     concerned and very upset over what happened.  You expressed your

 8     dissatisfaction over the lack of coordination and the general military

 9     situation in your area?

10        A.   Certainly, and we made no secret of our views, and we also

11     imparted to them the positions taken by the Crisis Staff.

12        Q.   When you were interviewed by the OTP, the Prosecution asked you

13     about the date of this meeting, whether this meeting happened before the

14     incident at the health centre or after, and you said you couldn't

15     remember.  You still can't remember, can you?

16        A.   I really cannot give you a time-line of these events.  I did not

17     keep any documents.  I did not keep record.  I'm not that kind of person.

18     I just cannot give you the chronological order of these events, whether

19     it was before or after the health centre.

20        Q.   In that broader discussion, that informal talk over lunch, you

21     addressed all those present, not specifically Stojan Zupljanin?

22        A.   Well, a group of us sort of went to one side.  I don't think I

23     actually stayed for lunch.  We just went to one side and discussed this,

24     the people I've already enumerated.

25        Q.   And you did not discuss specific incidents.  You spoke of

Page 1461

 1     problems and incidents.  You did not go like, this happened in this and

 2     that place in such and such a time.  It was in general terms?

 3        A.   Yes, we discussed in general terms the problems we were facing

 4     and the need to coordinate that, to put these things under control so

 5     that nothing like that happens again.

 6        Q.   And you probably said that this communication with Zupljanin

 7     should go through Savo Tepic?

 8        A.   Yes, I've already said that.  To me it was a normal line of

 9     communication.

10        Q.   We mentioned Savo Tepic.  You knew him.  What kind of person is

11     he?  Is he a straightforward person who would readily share information

12     with you and with others?  What sort of contact did you have with him?

13        A.   Savo Tepic tends to keep things to himself.  Later on he was

14     reluctant to get involved and share information that he actually could

15     have shared.  When we would sit down and talk he was always rather grim,

16     in a bad mood.  And we even had a problem over these disagreements and

17     this lack of readiness to cooperate, and even though we didn't want to

18     interfere with the work of the police it led to incidents.  Savo Tepic

19     didn't like interference, and we did not interfere.  So even if we did

20     not always give him as much support as we -- as he should have liked, we

21     certainly didn't interfere.

22        Q.   And even when he attended official meetings or failed to attend

23     them, you always had the impression, didn't you, that he was making

24     pretexts in order not to go?

25        A.   Well, I can understand that.  I know that on the one hand you are

Page 1462

 1     supposed to go to Banja Luka to attend these meetings, and you never get

 2     any feedback from him.  If a person really wants to they can always find

 3     a means to get there.  At least in June and July he was a very frightened

 4     man.  He barely ever left the police building.

 5        Q.   This -- what you just said is about Savo Tepic because it's not

 6     clear from the record?

 7        A.   Yes, Savo Tepic.

 8        Q.   And he had a nickname "Very Urgent" because he would always say

 9     he had something urgent to attend to but never said any more about it?

10        A.   Yes, our colleagues on the Crisis Staff called him "Very Urgent."

11     There was a label on documents in MUP, and he would often say, "I'm

12     urgently, very urgently, required elsewhere," and he would use it as a

13     pretext to leave the session of the Crisis Staff.

14        Q.   Talking about this incident outside the health centre, you didn't

15     have any detailed information about what was going on.  You just heard

16     from the director that some people were murdered?

17        A.   Precisely.  I just got a report at Crisis Staff, and of course

18     there was more talk later that reached me.  But the first report I got

19     from the director of the health centre.

20        Q.   You did not know who the perpetrators were or any other facts?

21        A.   No, I never found out the names.

22        Q.   And various stories circulated that those were irregular units,

23     all local units, but you never found out for certain who killed those

24     people?

25        A.   Never.  I know that people talked, some of our own local people

Page 1463

 1     talked, that these murders were committed by members of special units.

 2     But I cannot imagine that Rajko Skoric was mentioned as a possible

 3     perpetrator in some documents.

 4        Q.   Correction -- sorry, the witness didn't say that it was special

 5     units, but local units.

 6        A.   I found that -- out about that later.  At first we just got a

 7     preliminary report at the Crisis Staff that some people were killed.  But

 8     then various stories started circulating around town, and there were

 9     suspicions against various people and some names began to be mentioned,

10     including Rajko Skoric.

11        Q.   So you learned later that some of the locals took part in this

12     killing?

13        A.   Actually, I learned that some of the locals were present on the

14     scene.

15        Q.   And you heard that much later because there was no one like Savo

16     Tepic to report to you and say what happened was this and that?

17        A.   No.  At the Crisis Staff we really had no details.  We did not

18     know either the number of people who were killed or the perpetrators.

19        Q.   And it's possible that if local people were involved, that

20     information would be kept back from you and those real perpetrators would

21     try to blame someone else?

22        A.   Yes.  There were of course attempts to shift blame, but those

23     were times when nobody really assumed any responsibility, and no one had

24     the time to investigate thoroughly.  It was never a priority, not even

25     for us.  We never made a decision to investigate the whole matter through

Page 1464

 1     and through.  But we did try to prevent anything like that from happening

 2     again.  And actually, I can't recall any more incidents on that scale.

 3     There was perhaps one more minor incident later.  There was a couple of

 4     incidents.

 5        Q.   And you in the Crisis Staff did your best to prevent further

 6     incidents of the sort?

 7        A.   We absolutely tried, and I believe there is evidence of that, and

 8     I think you can freely say that as of mid-July no such things happened

 9     again.

10        Q.   And you urged members of the police, the army, and other forces

11     to work on it, to prevent such things?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   I'm sorry, the last part of your answer was:  And we did achieve

14     good results?

15        A.   Yes, I think our efforts really resulted in something.

16        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, the OTP asked you a series of questions about

17     commanding that special unit.  You said then that, both in your interview

18     and here, that you weren't sure who of them was the commander.  If I were

19     to put to you that the commander of that unit was --

20             MS. KORNER:  Could I have a reference to the page in the

21     interview, please.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  It takes some time, Your Honour, because my learned

23     colleague mentioned that in examination-in-chief but -- [Microphone not

24     activated]

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I don't want to delay matters, but

Page 1465

 1     perhaps Mr. Krgovic can point it out to me when he's finished.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I haven't heard, can I continue?

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, you are going to ask about "that

 4     special unit."  What special unit do you mean?  I don't see what it's

 5     about.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The unit that was in Kotor Varos,

 7     that's what I meant, Your Honours, and its commanding personnel.  The

 8     unit that was in Kotor Varos in the summer of 1991, a special unit.

 9        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, do you know by any chance that that unit was

10     commanded by Captain Lukic, member of the 1st Krajina Corps, and that

11     that unit had a mixed composition.  It consisted of both military units

12     and police units, and they also had military IDs.  Do you know about

13     that?

14        A.   I must be -- I must sincerely admit that I didn't know all those

15     details.  I don't know them now even, so I cannot really corroborate what

16     you said with any certainty.  I said on the last day when I was

17     questioned here that I don't know whether that unit even was completely

18     manned or whether it was just part of a larger unit.  I heard of

19     Mr. Lukic, but whether or not he was the commander of that special unit I

20     must admit I do not know.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We're talking about a police unit.  Is that

22     correctly understood?

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our position differs

24     somewhat from that of the OTP.  We consider that unit not to have been a

25     purely police unit -- I'm sorry, I apologise.  It really wasn't my

Page 1466

 1     intention to --

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This is exactly the reason why I asked, because I

 3     want to make sure that we --

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I may have stated my case now that

 5     is the position of the Defence, but I do apologise for that.  I really

 6     try not to make speeches here and put forward my own positions when

 7     trying to obtain evidence, but it does happen.

 8             Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djekanovic.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let us elicit from the witness again what is his

11     views on the identity of this special unit.  Was it a special police unit

12     or a special military unit or a special unit of volunteers or TO or where

13     are we?  What kind of special unit was it?

14             Can you help us understand this, Mr. Djekanovic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for this question.  I

16     know for sure that among those people who were in Kotor Varos there were

17     some who had never been with the police.  I even mentioned the name of

18     Slobodan Dubocanin, and I know that he has never been a police officer.

19     And it seemed to me -- seems strange to me too for such a person to

20     command a police unit, and there are others who had never been with the

21     police.  So I cannot really -- I don't really know what to make of all

22     that, but some people from our municipality joined that unit later.  I

23     know that so -- I know instances of that to have happened, Your Honours.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, I --

25     Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Pantelic have just suggested to me that with regard

Page 1467

 1     to the OTP's remark of putting forward our own position, that I should

 2     try to elicit through the witness about the relations between the police

 3     and the Crisis Staff and that sort of thing.  So if you allow, I would

 4     like to clarify that with the witness now.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Please do, but I see that we are actually a bit

 6     ahead of our time, and if we could conclude the testimony of this witness

 7     today I'm sure it would be very helpful.  Mr. Krgovic --

 8             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

10             MS. KORNER:  I can't conclude my re-examination today,

11     particularly in the view of the very last answers and the fact that I've

12     got to now check the interviews.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.

14             Mr. Krgovic, please carry on with your cross-examination.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, I apologise but I will ask for some more of your

18     time.  Many documents have been shown to you and tendered into evidence,

19     and they pertain to the relations between the Crisis Staff and the police

20     in the municipality of Kotor Varos, and in our conclusions as to the

21     relations between all Crisis Staffs and the security forces in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I will focus on this aspect of the relations between

23     the police and the Crisis Staff, and I will show you some documents and

24     put forward our position with regard to that.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

Page 1468

 1     the 65 ter document number --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the document

 3     number.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the Registrar could help

 5     me.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  [Previous translation continues]...

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 00690.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  The document has already been admitted as Exhibit

 9     1D24.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, the document is about to appear on your screen.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us see the second page, please.

13        Q.   Mr. Djekanovic, take a careful look at the document.  You have

14     seen these documents briefly when they were introduced, but now I'll ask

15     you to read it carefully.

16        A.   I've read it.

17        Q.   This is an order to impose a curfew in Kotor Varos municipality.

18     This is a decision of the Crisis Staff, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Here you're actually issuing an order as this document reads.

21             "The Crisis Staff hereby issues an order to the Army of the

22     Serbian Republic of BiH ..."

23             That's what it says?

24        A.   Yes, beyond a doubt this is what it says, and the Crisis Staff

25     consisted of all of us so it was our joint decision.

Page 1469

 1        Q.   This is a joint decision taken by you and the police?

 2        A.   It's a decision by the Crisis Staff because it was within the

 3     remit of the Crisis Staff.

 4        Q.   But it was also -- it also includes some powers, that is, some

 5     remit of the police, doesn't it?

 6        A.   Yes, when it comes to implementation.  But it refers not only to

 7     the police but also to military structures, that is, those controlling

 8     the security situation in town.

 9        Q.   And as far as I understood this document, you - the Crisis

10     Staff - are ordering to the police and the military to implement some

11     decisions; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, but this decision was necessary for everybody, the military,

13     the police, and the questioning so far I have said that there was a state

14     of war.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness Exhibit

16     P86, please.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt but an urgent

18     matter has come up, and as this witness is going to have to come back

19     tomorrow I wonder if we could adjourn at this stage.  It's a matter I

20     need to address Your Honours on pretty urgently.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  I agree, Your Honour.

22             MS. KORNER:  Are you happy with that?

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yeah.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yeah.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Djekanovic, I will have explained to you at the

Page 1470

 1     beginning of the day's session that one can't always predict the progress

 2     of these matters, and I know that you were all prepared to return home

 3     today, but as you would have gathered between what has passed between

 4     counsel and the Bench that your testimony still is not completed, and you

 5     would have to delay your return until tomorrow.  And you would be

 6     required to attend the Tribunal again tomorrow.  So you are now stood

 7     down as a witness but you're not excused, and I repeat the warnings that

 8     I would have given last week, that you cannot discuss your testimony with

 9     counsel from either side or with anyone outside of the chamber.

10             So you are excused now to return tomorrow morning at 9.00.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             MS. KORNER:  Could we go into private session, please, Your

13     Honour.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

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18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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Page 1471











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23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

25                           October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.