Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1963

 1                           Monday, 26 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Zupljanin not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 7     everyone in around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 8     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Good morning to everyone, and we resume

10     our work in the usual manner by having the appearances entered.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner, Belinda

12     Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Appearing for Stanisic

14     Defence Slobodan Zecevic and Slobodan Cvijetic.  Thank you.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honour, appearance from

16     Zupljanin Defence Dragan Krgovic for counsel.  Our client sent over their

17     waiver.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, before I call the witness who is here

19     today, can I just mention in passing, though I would like to discuss it

20     at the end of today, I e-mailed the legal officers and the Defence in

21     respect of the documents for tomorrow's witness.  I don't know whether

22     Your Honours were informed about that.  And obviously I would like some

23     kind of a ruling or at least some kind of an agreement before he gives

24     evidence tomorrow, because otherwise there are two ways of doing this.

25     One is reasonably quickly, and the other is very, very slowly indeed.

Page 1964

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mrs. Korner.  We have eagerly studied

 2     the correspondence, and we hope to be able to rule on it after the break.

 3     We will discuss it during the break and then hope to pass down our ruling

 4     immediately at the beginning of the second session of today.

 5             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, the witness this morning is

 6     Aleksandar Krulj.  Your Honours, he is going to deal with a small

 7     municipality but which comes under the jurisdiction of the Trebinje CSB.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           WITNESS:  ALEKSANDAR KRULJ

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Witness.  Can you make your solemn

12     declaration, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good morning.  I solemnly declare

14     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Witness, can you please

16     state me your name.

17             THE WITNESS:  Aleksandar Krulj.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Krulj.  You can understand me?  You have the

19     interpretation?  Yes?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  [No interpretation]

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can you tell me your date of birth, please?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The 10th of August, 1958.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your first name?  I forgot.  Your first name?

24     Your Christian name?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Aleksandar.

Page 1965

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  What is your profession, please?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I am an attorney.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And your ethnicity?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Serb.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is this the first time you testify before this

 6     Tribunal, or did you already testify in other cases?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm testifying for the first time

 8     before this Tribunal.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Okay then.  Now you will be asked

10     questions by the Prosecutor first and then in cross-examination by the

11     counsels of the Defence.  Okay?  Are you okay with that?  Okay.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Korner.

14             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  I was complaining I hadn't got any

15     interpretation.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

17             MS. KORNER:  And the reason is because I haven't plugged my

18     earphones in.  It is Monday.

19                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

20        Q.   Mr. Krulj, can I, first of all, ask you a little bit about your

21     background.  I think it's right that you graduated from law school and

22     then worked for the Property Rights Service in the Ljubinje Municipal

23     Assembly.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Subsequently, did you join the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia

Page 1966

 1     and Herzegovina, the Socialist Federation -- Socialist Republic, rather,

 2     to work as an inspector at the Mostar Security Services Centre?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And from Mostar did you move to Ljubinje at the end of 1989 to

 5     work on what you've described as the duties and tasks of defence?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And then in 1991, on the 1st of January, did you become chief of

 8     the public security station, the SJB, at Ljubinje?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And I think you remained there until May of 1994, when you

11     were -- you became chief of the CSB in Trebinje?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And just so the Court is aware, you've told them that this is the

14     first time you've testified before this Tribunal, but did you make a

15     statement originally to the prosecutor's office of Bosnia and Herzegovina

16     at the State Court?

17        A.   Yes.  In the case of Krsto Savic and others in February of this

18     year.

19        Q.   And you also testified in the trial against Krsto Savic and

20     others.

21        A.   Yes, in March of this year.

22        Q.   And I think it's right that a few months ago Krsto Savic and the

23     co-accused were convicted of crimes against humanity.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And just so that the Court understands straight away, Krsto

Page 1967

 1     Savic, during the period of 1992, was the chief of the CSB at Trebinje?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Right.  Now, I want to move next to asking you a little bit about

 4     Ljubinje.

 5             MS. KORNER:  And could we first of all have up on the screen the

 6     big map of Bosnia, which is 65 ter 10133.

 7             Is there a problem?  It keeps coming and going.  Actually, Your

 8     Honour, interestingly enough we have binders for Your Honours of maps and

 9     things that we were going to hand out today and then I left them in my

10     room.  We could have used those.

11             Is there a mechanical failure?  There's a mechanical failure.

12     All right.  No, it's not in ...

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, if the maps are ready in your

14     office, could you have the scout bring them down to us.  Then -- if we

15     need them anyway, we might as well get them.

16             MS. KORNER:  Or even a Girl Guide.

17             Can we get somebody to bring them down.

18             I tell you what.  I gather it works on video.  No, it doesn't.

19     It's stopped.

20             All right.  While that's happening, Your Honours, I can go on and

21     ask further questions and then hopefully when we get the things done we

22     can come to that.

23        Q.   Mr. Krulj, we'll come back to the maps, because the machinery's

24     not working properly for us, unfortunately.

25             Can we try just one more map and see if that comes up better?

Page 1968

 1     10 -- 65 ter 10062.

 2             All right.  We'll come back to that.  Sorry, Mr. Krulj, you've

 3     got it.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   You've got the map, but nobody else has in court, so we'll come

 7     back to the various maps.

 8             Now, you told us that you started to work in Trebinje in 1989; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   In 1989, I started to work in Ljubinje, not Trebinje.

11        Q.   Ljubinje.  Sorry, my fault.  And when you became chief in January

12     of 1991, was it still an ethnically mixed police station, SJB?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In April of 1991, did you become aware of the division of the

15     MUP?

16        A.   I think that the division of the MUP took place in April 1992.

17        Q.   I'm sorry, 1992.  Forgive me.  In April of 1992.  How did you

18     hear about the division of the MUP?

19        A.   Well, that would require slightly longer answer.  In our area, in

20     Herzegovina where Ljubinje is situated, it's some 90 kilometres from

21     Dubrovnik and 50 kilometres from Neum, the war began on the 1st of

22     October, 1991.

23        Q.   All right.  That was the war in Croatia.

24        A.   Yes, but the war spread to the Bosnia and Herzegovina area, to

25     the part of the municipalities of Trebinje and Neum, and this is where

Page 1969

 1     regular Croatian Army units were involved.  At the time, the security

 2     situation was the way it was.  In Herzegovina the reserves were called

 3     up, the police reserves throughout the whole municipality.  War was at

 4     the boundaries of our municipality.  And I found out about the division

 5     of the MUP after a decision by the National Assembly -- or the People's

 6     Assembly of Republika Srpska, or the then Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina --

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   -- in March 1992 when the government was formed and certain

10     ministries, including the Ministry for Internal Affairs.

11        Q.   Were you sent or did you receive a copy of a letter from Momcilo

12     Mandic explaining about the split of the MUP?

13        A.   I don't remember the letter, but if each public security station

14     received it, probably I received it as well.  I don't remember the

15     contents, but if I can recall correctly, Momcilo Mandic was the justice

16     minister in that government.

17        Q.   Yes.  He later became that.  All right.  On the 1st of April, was

18     there a meeting held in Trebinje, which was attended by all the chiefs of

19     the SJBs?

20        A.   Yes, I remember that.

21        Q.   And was that meeting attended by Mico Stanisic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, were you aware at a stage that he was the new minister of

24     the interior?

25        A.   Well, I found out about it that day, because they said that new

Page 1970

 1     minister of internal affairs was coming, Mico Stanisic.  That was the

 2     first time that I saw him in my life.

 3        Q.   Right.  At the meeting what did he say?

 4        A.   I think that the meeting didn't last that long.  Perhaps less

 5     than an hour, because the minister was in a hurry to get somewhere.  He

 6     just informed us briefly that a new Law on Internal Affairs has been

 7     adopted of the then Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that the

 8     provisions of the law are practically identical to the previous one, then

 9     the fact that some other existing centres for informing another one was

10     being introduced in Trebinje.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note there is a background

12     noise making it difficult to hear the witness.

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   Right.  Now, you say that some other existing centres for

15     informing was being introduced in Trebinje.  Before April of 1992, had

16     there been a CSB in Trebinje?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Where was the -- which CSB covered the area of Trebinje?

19        A.   The Mostar Security Centre.

20        Q.   Right.  And was there an explanation from Mico Stanisic why there

21     was going to be a change?

22        A.   I said that earlier, that the People's Assembly -- well, it was

23     probably -- you know that at the time the National Assembly split up,

24     that the Assembly government and ministries were formed, and I knew that

25     from the media.

Page 1971

 1        Q.   Yes.  Sorry.  It's my fault.  There hadn't been a CSB at Trebinje

 2     until then.  Were you being told that there was now going to be a CSB at

 3     Trebinje?

 4        A.   This was written in the law.

 5        Q.   That's the Law on Internal Affairs.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And was there an explanation as to why it would longer be in

 8     Mostar?

 9        A.   I don't know how to answer that.  The question is not clear to

10     me.  A law was adopted.

11        Q.   Yes.  But was there any explanation given to you why instead of

12     the CSB being in Mostar it was now going to be in Trebinje and that's

13     why -- and there had been a change in the law?  Were you -- were you --

14     was it explained to you why there'd been this change in the law?

15        A.   I can give you my opinion, because already at the time the

16     majority of the Serb cadres were expelled from Mostar, and they came to

17     the Trebinje area.  Not only the employees of the MUP but just regular

18     citizens, people.

19        Q.   All right.  So had the employees of the MUP from Mostar, or from

20     the centre at Mostar, come to Trebinje?

21        A.   Yes.  Jovo Cokorilo was the head of the criminal investigations

22     unit in Mostar, and he worked in Trebinje.  Zorica Sarenac was the

23     administrative legal advisor in -- in Mostar, and she continued to work

24     on the same job in Trebinje.  Marko Cabrilo also performed his duties

25     both in Mostar and in Trebinje.

Page 1972

 1        Q.   All right.  Well, when we get the screen back, I'm going to ask

 2     you to look at a diagram of the CSB in Trebinje, but at a meeting on

 3     April the 1st, were you told who the new chief -- or who the chief of the

 4     CSB in Trebinje was going to be?

 5        A.   I think that it was said that it was Krsto Savic, but I don't

 6     know whether Krsto Savic got the letter of appointment or not within the

 7     next few days after that.  I don't know, but it was said that he would be

 8     the chief, yes.

 9        Q.   And did you know Krsto Savic before this?

10        A.   Yes, for a brief period of time.

11        Q.   Where had you known him?

12        A.   Well, I met him in Nevesinje.  I think that at the time in 1989

13     he worked -- or while I was still working in Mostar, and he was deputy

14     commander at the time.  Ibro Feriz was commander and he was deputy

15     commander, and that was his first job in the police force.  And since I

16     was police inspector, I used to know these people.

17        Q.   Now, after April the 1st in your police station in Ljubinje, was

18     there a change of uniform?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   What, none at all?

21        A.   Just a change of insignia.

22        Q.   Right.  And the change was -- was what in the insignia?

23        A.   Well, the insignia was changed.  Instead of a five-pointed star

24     on the cap, they had a tricolour flag.

25        Q.   Right.  Did your police officers have to take any kind of oath to

Page 1973

 1     the new government, the Serbian republic?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know.  I think that the formal oath was first done

 3     in Trebinje.  And as for people doing this in police stations, no.  We

 4     used to sign an oath always, whenever we were issued with an official ID,

 5     rather, that was regulated by the Law on Internal Affairs of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  When a person was given an official ID, then members

 7     would give a solemn declaration where they would take up certain duties

 8     and so on.

 9             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Well, now I see we have here the actual

10     folders.  I don't know if the equipment is working yet, but as I see

11     there's still a technician probably not.  Can we hand to Your Honours --

12     there are two different ones.  These were provided to the Defence last

13     week, and we've got them for the court staff as well, or legal officers.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  It was my understanding

15     that the Office of the Prosecutor provided us with this courtesy copies

16     last week in order that we give some comments before it is provided to

17     the Trial Chamber.  I'm afraid since we are very pressed with the

18     witnesses this week, very important witnesses, we didn't have time to

19     give our comments on this.  So I'm not opposing that this be given to the

20     Judges, but I reserve the right to comment, if I may, later on.  Thank

21     you very much.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I say that they're just -- they

23     contain maps.  One of them contains maps, and the other contains the

24     diagrams that are attached to the pre-trial brief, but obviously if

25     there's any changes that need to be made we'll take them away and make

Page 1974

 1     those changes later.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, we've provided them in hard copy, but

 4     just in case Your Honours possibly wanted to make any sort of markings.

 5             There's two different ones.  One is maps, and the other one is

 6     diagrams.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Without more, I could understand the Defence wishing

 8     to reserve the right to make comments about the charts binder.

 9             MS. KORNER:  They're the ones, Your Honour, that were attached to

10     the pre-trial brief which were altered after the Defence had and input,

11     but as I say, if there's any problem, we can always change it.

12             Okay.  Can we -- I'm told the screens are now working, so perhaps

13     for the purpose of the witness we can have up the map of -- the map of

14     Bosnia, please, which is 0 -- 10133.

15             Yes.  Now, can we move -- it will have to go up a bit because I

16     want the bottom part of the map.  Thank you.  Stop, stop, stop.  Thank

17     you very much.

18        Q.   All right.  Mr. Krulj, I think we can see Trebinje marked at

19     the -- near the bottom tip of Bosnia, if I can put it that way, and we

20     see Dubocanin just to the left of it, and as you pointed out to us,

21     Montenegro is to the right as we look at it; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And Ljubinje, which is where you were based, if one goes up the

24     map from Trebinje towards Stolac --

25        A.   Yes.  Sixty kilometres to the west.

Page 1975

 1        Q.   Yes.  And just while we've got the map open there, Bileca, which

 2     was another municipality that came within the jurisdiction of the CSB

 3     Trebinje, is to the right of Trebinje, looking at the map, and virtually

 4     on the border with Montenegro; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.  Thirty kilometres to the north of Trebinje.

 6        Q.   And then -- I don't have Gacko marked, but I can't see it at the

 7     moment.  Oh, yes, Gacko.  One goes up the border from Bileca, going up

 8     the map.  Gacko is a little bit further up to the -- to the right; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Forty-four kilometres to the north of Bileca.

11        Q.   Quite right, to the north.

12             MS. KORNER:  All right.  And then can we have the next map on the

13     screen, which is the second map in the bundle.  10134.

14        Q.   All right.  And that gives us a clearer idea of the

15     municipalities.  We see Ljubinje, and as you talked about, there's Neum

16     to the west and Bileca to the east, and then Stolac and --

17        A.   To the west.

18        Q.   To the west.  Right.  Finally on maps, can I ask you to look,

19     please, at an ethnic map of Ljubinje, which is number 10062, which you

20     had a chance to look at yesterday.

21             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, that's not in Your Honours'

22     bundle.

23             If we -- can we see the top of the map first of all, please.

24        Q.   This shows the -- your -- the municipality of Ljubinje with

25     markings showing the ethnicity.

Page 1976

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, it's fairly clear so we haven't

 2     bothered to translate it.  It's a map based on the census of 1991, Hrvati

 3     being Croats, Srbi being Serbs, and Muslimani being Muslims, fairly

 4     obvious, and those that describe themselves as being Yugoslavs and then

 5     others.

 6        Q.   First of all, you had a chance to look at this map.  Do you agree

 7     that it's an accurate representation of the way the -- the various

 8     villages were made up ethnically in the area of Ljubinje?

 9        A.   Yes.  And I agree, and I'm familiar with this, yes.

10        Q.   And it appears that the only majority Croat village was a small

11     one called Misljen.

12        A.   Yes, Misljen.

13        Q.   And we can see that in fact the Serbs in this municipality had an

14     absolutely overwhelming majority; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   There appear to be only 39 Croats on some 332 Muslims in 1991.

17             In 1992 were the figures still the same more or less?

18        A.   Which month?

19        Q.   April.

20        A.   All of the Croats remained in the territory of Ljubinje, and some

21     Muslims moved away in July of 1992 to Montenegro and to Mostar.

22        Q.   And now finally on diagrams, could you have a look, please, at a

23     pictorial representation of the CSB in Trebinje.

24             MS. KORNER:  It's in Sanction, and it's in the second binder,

25     Your Honours.  I think it's 610.  611.  Sorry, it is number 11.  It's the

Page 1977

 1     last document in the binder.

 2        Q.   All right.  First of all --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.

 5        Q.   The chief is shown as Krsto Savic, and we see the chiefs of the

 6     SJBs that came under Trebinje, and we can see you.  I agree it's not a

 7     very good picture of you, Mr. Krulj, but that's you to the very right; is

 8     that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And are the chiefs who are shown on that diagram correct?  I

11     mean, obviously we know there were changes, but at the time we're talking

12     about it's April of 1992.

13        A.   I can say that in 1992, at that meeting, there were chiefs of

14     Trebinje village, Gacko, Berkovic, Nevesinje, and Ljubinje stations.

15     Now, as for the reorganisation, when Foca, Kalinovik, Rudo, Cajnice, and

16     Visegrad were attached, I can't really confirm that it was in April.

17        Q.   All right.

18        A.   And there was a mistake here.  I think it says -- let me just

19     see.  Bosko Govedaric.  His real name is Govedarica -- his last name is

20     Govedarica, and as for the others, yes, I'm familiar with their first and

21     last names.

22        Q.   Sorry, of -- this is Kalinovik SJB, is it?  You say there's a

23     mistake in the name.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Can you just spell the last name of that chief for us.

Page 1978

 1        A.   Govedarica.

 2        Q.   We'll have to make some changes.  Now, was there also working at

 3     Trebinje CSB a gentleman named Cuk?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what position did he hold?

 6        A.   Cuk was acting chief of police department in the Trebinje centre.

 7        Q.   And was he appointed early on or later?

 8        A.   He was commander of the police in charge of traffic security.  He

 9     had completed only secondary education, and he didn't have an education

10     higher than that, and I think that that's why he was acting chief.  That

11     was back in 1992.

12        Q.   Yes.  I will just ask -- sorry, it's my fault.  When was he

13     actually appointed acting chief?  Straight away when the CSB was created?

14        A.   When the CSB was created, because police department exists within

15     the security centre.  He could not have been appointed earlier than that,

16     because the institution did not exist earlier.

17        Q.   And finally before we leave the diagram, we see that the

18     undersecretary for national security service, the SNB, first of all, was

19     a man called Slobodan Skipina, and then Dragan Kijac.  Did you attend

20     later in 1992 meetings or a meeting with Slobodan Skipina?

21        A.   As far as I remember, just once.  There was a joint meeting in

22     Trebinje.

23        Q.   And underneath that as head of the SNB in the Trebinje CSB was a

24     gentleman named Slavko Draskovic.  Did you also meet him?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1979

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  That's all we need from that diagram.

 2             Now, next can I just ask a few things before we look at the

 3     documents that I'd like you to assist us with.  Was there a Crisis Staff

 4     set up in Ljubinje as everywhere else in the area?

 5        A.   Yes.  In every municipality there was one, either War Presidency

 6     or in some cases it went by the popular name of Crisis Staff, but, yes,

 7     they did exist.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Don't worry, because we know they were later renamed War

 9     Presidencies.  And did you attend meetings in your capacity as chief of

10     the CSB in Ljubinje?

11        A.   Chief of the public security station in Ljubinje, yes.

12        Q.   Sorry.  I said CSB.  SJB.  And would you attend those meetings on

13     a regular basis?

14        A.   No, not every time.

15        Q.   Did you also attend a number of meetings in Trebinje which were

16     called by Krsto Savic as the chief?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   We're going to look at the records of some of those in a moment,

19     but how often would Krsto Savic call meetings on average during the

20     period April until September of 1992 in particular?

21        A.   Well, depending on the security situation, but mostly there would

22     be a meeting every 10 to 15 days.  Every 10 or 15 days.  And maybe

23     sometimes there were meetings that were one week apart.

24        Q.   How would you find out about the meetings?

25        A.   Communication was a problem with us, telephone communication.  We

Page 1980

 1     didn't have faxes either.  Sometimes we would use radio stations, ultra

 2     shortwaves, and we would be notified either by a courier or by telephone,

 3     because almost every day somebody travelled between these places, either

 4     civilian authorities or somebody else.  So we would use that.  We would

 5     use courier if telephones were not operating.  Otherwise, we would use

 6     telephone, and we would be notified that the meeting would be held on

 7     such and such day at such and such time.  They would be mostly in

 8     Trebinje or in Bileca.  In Trebinje we would hold meetings in the

 9     pensioners' centre, and in Bileca it would be in cultural centre, which

10     is used for something else nowadays.

11        Q.   Right.  Can I deal now with communications, please.  Were you

12     obliged to send reports to the CSB in Trebinje?

13        A.   Every police force, even nowadays, all European police forces

14     have regulations on how reports are sent in their chain of command.  So

15     we had a regulation that regulated all kinds of reports.  It was called

16     an instruction on regular, emergency, and so on reporting.  It existed

17     within the ministry.  It was in force then, and it is in force even

18     nowadays.

19             Reporting covered some major events.  I don't want to go into

20     details, but we would have monthly reports, reports sent every three

21     months, and we would have current reports that were sent daily every day

22     at 6.00 p.m.  We would inform about the security relevant events in the

23     municipality, and it would be sent to centre, and then the centre was

24     duty-bound to send a report to its superiors, which was within the

25     ministry.  So we would make it for the territory of municipality.  Krsto

Page 1981

 1     would make a report for the territory of the region, and then somebody

 2     else would probably make it for the territory of the entire republic.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are not sure whether the

 4     report was sent at 6.00 p.m. or 6.00 a.m.  Could the witness repeat.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   Did you hear that, Mr. Krulj?  Could you tell us, was it 6.00

 7     a.m. or 6.00 p.m. that you sent your report, your daily report?

 8        A.   I think that at that time it was both in the evening and in the

 9     morning.

10        Q.   And you told us that you occasionally had problems with the

11     telephone.  How would you send the reports or the -- by

12     telecommunications, I mean, fax, printer, what?

13        A.   It applied only to Ljubinje.  It was typical for Ljubinje only.

14     Before the war within the postal and telephone telegraph system Ljubinje

15     belonged to the Mostar area code 088.  So physically speaking there was a

16     communications tower facing Mostar and the Velez mountain.  When it was

17     destroyed a new one had to be built in 1992, a new relay tower, and then

18     the new one was turned to face another direction.  So for about six

19     months we had problems with telephone communications, which means that we

20     did not have fax or teleprinters.  So we would mostly send it via

21     courier.  At least I would from Ljubinje.

22        Q.   All right.  And did you have secure -- when you had telephone,

23     the telephone working, did you have secure phones?  Special police secure

24     phones?

25        A.   No.  We had it before the war but not later on.  You mean what we

Page 1982

 1     used to popularly call special phones.

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   No.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours line 19 -- page 19, line

 5     12.  I believe the witness gave the number of months during which he

 6     lacked any communication, and it didn't enter into the transcript, and I

 7     would like that this be clarified.  Thank you.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   Do you -- did you -- Mr. Krulj, you were asked if you gave the

10     number of months that you say that the communication tower wasn't

11     working.

12        A.   I said perhaps as long as six months.  I think while the new

13     relay tower was being built.  I wouldn't be able to say whether it was

14     four months or six months, but for a longer period of time in 1992,

15     starting with the destruction of the relay tower on the Velez mountain,

16     which was sometime in late April, and then all the way until the fall.

17     During that period of time.  It could have been as long as six months.

18        Q.   Are you saying you had no telephone communication at all during

19     that period or only intermittent?  In other words, from time to time.

20        A.   None at all.

21        Q.   So all reports had to be delivered by courier every day.

22        A.   Mostly, but it wasn't an everyday thing.  It was too expensive.

23     We used a macadam road that you could only drive 50 kilometres an hour to

24     get to Trebinje, so it was difficult.

25        Q.   Now, as it turned out, did you have any major problems in your

Page 1983

 1     area of operations, in Ljubinje?  For example, with paramilitaries or the

 2     like?

 3        A.   No, but we had a lot of soldiers coming in, because war was under

 4     way.  The Trebinje road was captured by the Croatian Army, and there was

 5     the Podgorica Corps of the then army in our area.  There was a lot of

 6     uncontrolled firing throughout the town, violations of law and order.

 7     Catering facilities would be taken over.  I mean, it was a difficult

 8     situation.  Thank God there were no killings and things like that.

 9        Q.   When you had your meetings, you presumably learnt about the

10     problems that were apparently occurring in other places such as Gacko and

11     Bileca.  Did you have anything like their problems?

12        A.   We all had similar problems as far as the security situation was

13     concerned, if you're thinking about the things that I was talking about,

14     the security situation.

15        Q.   All right.  We'll look at it as we look at the records of some of

16     these meetings.

17             I want to just concentrate on some reports that were sent.

18             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please, on the screen 65 ter

19     number 936.

20        Q.   And it's -- have you got your volume of documents, Mr. Krulj?

21     Could you -- no, you haven't.  Somebody's taken them away?

22             MS. KORNER:  Could he have them, please?  It's going to be easier

23     if he look -- quicker if he looks at them in the binders.  Sorry, there

24     was a binder in front of him.  Yes.

25        Q.   And if you go to, please, the first page.  It's now on our

Page 1984

 1     screen, but -- in other words, the B/C/S is but not the English.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Could we go to the last page, please, of that to

 3     begin with.  The last -- very, very last page.  And for some reason we

 4     have B/C/S on both sides of the screen.  No.  What's going on.  We want

 5     the last page in English, please, and the last page in B/C/S.

 6             No, the last page.  No, honestly, you had it up.  Last page in

 7     B/C/S, please, last page in English.  All right.

 8        Q.   Okay.  This is apparently a document which bears the stamp of the

 9     minister of the interior and a signature.  Do you recognise

10     Mr. Stanisic's signature or not?  If you say -- if you don't, say so.

11        A.   I didn't really see that many documents with his signature.

12        Q.   All right.  It's dated -- and if we go to the first page, please,

13     again.

14             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  And English as well, please.

15        Q.   All right.  That says "Daily report," from the minister of the

16     interior, dates 22nd and 23rd of April, 1992.  It's report number 3.

17             Then can we go, please, to the second page in the English, and

18     it's still the first page, I think, in the B/C/S.

19             Does that say -- I think it's the last paragraph, that:

20             "On the 22nd of April, 1992, an explosive device went off in the

21     Centar cafe in Gacko"?

22             Now, two questions:  I know you weren't in Gacko.  Were you aware

23     from any meetings you had that this had happened, this explosion in a

24     cafe owned clearly by a Muslim?

25        A.   Well, I believe that it did happen.  It says so in the report,

Page 1985

 1     but I don't think that it was particularly discussed at any meeting.  I

 2     mean, it's not the only thing.

 3        Q.   No, but it was quite --

 4        A.   It was the only thing that happened in our area.  It's possible

 5     that the chief informed us at a meeting that during the past month such

 6     and such things happened.  That's possible.

 7        Q.   But you say it wasn't particularly -- sorry, I'm just going to

 8     turn up what you did say.  I don't -- you don't think it was particularly

 9     discussed.  Was it not there -- wasn't it unusual, therefore, to have an

10     explosive device placed in a Muslim cafe?

11        A.   Looking at it from now, from this point of view, it is unusual,

12     and it's terrible.  At the time, such device were planted under cars, in

13     cafes both on the Muslim and Serbian side, and unfortunately was just a

14     part of our everyday life at that time.

15        Q.   And this is a report, apparently, from Mr. Stanisic.  How would

16     the information from Gacko, in your experience, have got to him?

17        A.   I think that Gacko sent the information to the Trebinje centre.

18     Let me just take a look at the date.  Yes.  And then the duty operations

19     processed that in Trebinje, and then from the Herzegovina area they sent

20     it to the service in the ministry, and then they compiled the bulletin.

21     It's unusual for the minister to sign a report of -- a daily report.  In

22     the station it's not even the chief who signs the daily reports.  This is

23     something that's done by the duty officer.  So this is why I think this

24     is unusual, but perhaps this was signed by the minister.  I don't know.

25        Q.   Well, we can look at a second example and that's all that I want

Page 1986

 1     to.  Can we go, please, to 65 ter 938?

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, before we leave this document, I

 3     apologise for being unable to catch exactly to whom this report was sent.

 4     I think it appeared from the top of the document, but I just --

 5             MS. KORNER:  No, it doesn't say to who it was sent.  It just says

 6     the minister of the interior.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But could we clarify it, to whom this document

 8     was sent?

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Krulj, to whom this document would be sent?

11        A.   As far as I know, we made a bulletin, my service, in order for me

12     to be informed as the chief of the station with all the events during the

13     previous 24 hours.  We would send it to the centre so that the chief of

14     the centre would know what would happen -- what happened in the area, the

15     centre covered over the past 24 hours, and then the bulletin would be

16     drafted at the service at the ministry for the minister for his

17     information to know what happened in the territory of the republic.  If

18     somebody outside of the MUP requested a bulletin, then it's possible that

19     it was signed by the minister as such a request could be made by the

20     prime minister, the president.  In that case, it would be signed by the

21     minister.  For your information purposes, internally, that document would

22     be signed by the head of the duty operation service.

23             I hope I was clear.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So presumably the document that was signed by

25     Minister Mico Stanisic, would then be sent probably to the government or

Page 1987

 1     to the prime minister?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  According to our rules, according

 3     to the rules of any police force, any document that is sent for

 4     information purposes outside of the ministry should be signed by the

 5     minister.  This is possible.  I cannot tell who -- to whom this bulletin

 6     was sent.  Perhaps to the prime minister, perhaps to the military command

 7     if they requested it.  This is a regulation of the law on the MUP duties.

 8     That's how the procedure goes according to the law.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

10             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may -- may this be exhibited.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It will be exhibit P155.

13             MS. KORNER:  All right.  And very quickly because I don't want to

14     get too buried in these documents.  One other example of Mico Stanisic.

15     If you would pull up, please, 938.  First page for the B/C/S and the

16     English.  And if you go to divider number 2, please.

17        Q.   That's dated the 24th of April.  The first one was dated the 23rd

18     and was marked number 2.  This is number 5.  And again, if we go to the

19     last page.  Second page in B/C/S, third in English.

20             Again, it looks like this -- this one actually is signed for.  We

21     see "Za," don't we, for the Minister of the Interior, Mico Stanisic.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And again there's reference to something that happened in Gacko.

24     This covers a number of areas, but if you go to the last paragraph in

25     B/C/S on page 1 and the fourth paragraph on page 2 of the English.  We

Page 1988

 1     see that on the 23rd of April, a manslaughter took place, and there was

 2     an investigating judge from the Trebinje Lower Court.

 3             Can we take it from that that investigations into crimes were

 4     carried on even during this -- this period of conflict?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may -- that's also on our 65 ter list.

 8     May that be exhibited, please.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  [Overlapping speakers] As Exhibit 156, Your

11     Honours.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   Now, there are a number of examples of these reports but I just

14     want you to look very quickly, if it's at all possible, for one more

15     report, which will be 65 ter 973 behind divider 7.  No, sorry, it's

16     wrong.  I beg your pardon, 65 -- forget that.  That's the one I didn't

17     want to show, actually.  It's 65 ter 959, behind divider 4.

18             That shows that it's -- again it's the ministry of the interior,

19     Daily Incident Bulletin Number 15.  And if we go, please, to the second

20     page in the English and the bottom of the first page in B/C/S.

21             It says:

22             "No reports or daily incident bulletins had been submitted by

23     Doboj, Bijeljina, or Trebinje, CSB by 1200 hours," 21st of May.

24             What would -- in your experience would be an explanation for

25     Trebinje and indeed the other two not being able to submit reports?

Page 1989

 1        A.   I already said that Ljubinje had problems with reporting back.

 2     There were problems with telephone lines because there was no other

 3     reason not to send reports.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And this -- on this occasion it's signed apparently -- or

 5     it's not signed but typewritten it says "Investigation And Documentation

 6     Service."  What was that?

 7        A.   The service for analysis and data.  They compile all the

 8     interesting events and put them together for purposes of information of

 9     the employees.  This service was formed in our branch in 1994.  It

10     monitors, analyses the situation, the crime rate and the general

11     situation in the area, and then reports back about it.  It's a section

12     within the security centre that deals with analysis, and I think -- I

13     hope that it is clear what I was trying to say.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Previous translation continues]... assistance.  I

15     note for some time that the witness is talking far too quick for

16     interpreters, and a number of words that he says and parts of the

17     sentences is not entered into the transcript.  So if my colleague can

18     please instruct the witness to talk slowly.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   Mr. Krulj, you've heard Mr. Zecevic.  If you could try and talk a

21     little bit more slowly so that every word can be interpreted.

22        A.   I apologise.

23             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Your Honours, may that be exhibited

24     again.  It's on our 65 ter list.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 1990

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 157.  Your Honours.

 2             MS. KORNER:  This is one of about a number of reports which

 3     purely go to the communication that was going on.  I don't want to waste

 4     time by going through every single one of them and it's to be hoped that

 5     we can find some method of dealing with these documents either by them

 6     going in as a bar table motion or as some kind of agreement about

 7     communications.

 8        Q.   So can I move next -- oh, well, Your Honours, perhaps -- I note

 9     the time.  I think it's -- it would probably be better, I'm moving to a

10     different area.

11             JUDGE HALL:  We have two minutes.  Can you make use of it?

12             MS. KORNER:  I can try to get something up on the screen.  That

13     would be useful, I'm sure.  I'd like to move, please, to document 96 --

14     sorry, 65 ter 47.

15        Q.   And you, sir, will find it behind divider 8.  This is a report

16     from the CSB at Trebinje, and it's headed "Information on the work of the

17     Trebinje CSB," between the 1st of July to the 15th of August.

18             Now, when you became chief in 1994, would you send these types of

19     reports to the minister of the interior?

20        A.   Not like this unless somebody particularly requested it.

21        Q.   And what's -- why -- when you say "not like this," what's the

22     difference between this report and any that you sent?

23        A.   The information on the work and the security situation in the

24     police is done monthly, every three months, every six months, and

25     annually.  Here we're looking at something else.  I think that the

Page 1991

 1     security situation was quite complex and there were plenty of remarks on

 2     the work of the Trebinje Security Centre.  So the ministry wanted a

 3     report to be drafted for the period of 1st of July to the 15th of August

 4     because you can see that it is a little bit unusual what was going on for

 5     that period of month and a half.  Anyway, that is my opinion of it.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Would Your Honours like me to go through the

 7     content or pause there for the break?

 8             JUDGE HALL:  It's 10.25.  We could take a break.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Mrs. Korner, the reason for our extended break was

13     that as promised, we are considering -- we have considered, really, your

14     application, and we will give an oral ruling before the Court rises for

15     its next break.  Thank you.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   Mr. Krulj, just before we go back to the document that you were

19     looking at and we were all looking at, two matters I ought to have dealt

20     with earlier.  Firstly, I forgot to say that apart from your interviews

21     and testimony at the state court, you were also interviewed by the Office

22     of the Prosecutor in August of this year, and I think you saw Mr. -- you

23     were able to speak to Mr. Zecevic yesterday; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And one other thing.  You were talking about the

Page 1992

 1     problem with telephone communication in Ljubinje because of the

 2     transmitter.  To your knowledge, and if you don't know say so, did the

 3     same problems apply to other municipalities such as Bileca and Gacko, or

 4     was it only in Ljubinje?

 5        A.   Occasionally other municipalities would have problems too.

 6        Q.   But you say there was no telephone communication for

 7     approximately six months.  Was that the same everywhere, or did the

 8     transmitter only affect Ljubinje?

 9        A.   Only Ljubinje.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if we go back very swiftly to this report.  If

11     we go, please, in the English to the second page and in the B/C/S also to

12     the second page.  Sorry, third page.  I see it's got these ridiculous

13     stamps by Mr. O'Donnell.

14             In the second paragraph it states that:

15             "Mostar and Konjic police stations do not function in the area of

16     Eastern Herzegovina, all policemen are placed under the command of units

17     of the Serbian Army.  Reserve policemen of Bileca ... 15 active policemen

18     from Stolac ... and 30 policemen from Ljubinje are at the front."

19             And the date of this report -- well, it was a report between July

20     and August.  Was that accurate, that you had 30 of your force fighting?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And then can we go, please, to page 7 in the English and to

23     page -- it's got 4 at the top in B/C/S, but it's -- 0074-9771 is the ERN

24     number.

25        A.   All right.

Page 1993

 1        Q.   We see in the third paragraph:

 2             "Frequent cases of unlawful breaking into apartments and moving

 3     in represents one of the most complex security problems ..."

 4             Was that a problem that affected you in Ljubinje?

 5        A.   In Ljubinje we didn't have this problem.  We had very few cases

 6     of apartments broken into.  But I need to clarify something here.  This

 7     was the period of time when from the Neretva valley, from Mostar and from

 8     Capljina, to the borderline municipalities a lot of refugees came to

 9     those municipalities, refugees of Serb ethnicity.  They had been expelled

10     from Capljina, Dubrava, Stolac, Mostar, and they were the ones looking

11     for some sort of accommodation.  If they happened to find a vacant

12     apartment, then they would, on their own, enter those apartments without

13     having a prior decision of the commission for accommodation.  So that was

14     what was going on.

15        Q.   And the empty apartments, who did they belong to?  That they

16     broke into.

17        A.   In these municipalities, if there were cases of non-Serbs leaving

18     their apartments, then into those.  And there were also cases where Serbs

19     had left their apartments, and there were a lot of such cases.  People

20     would flee to Serbia or abroad and they would lock their apartments, and

21     these refugees would break into those apartments as well.

22             MS. KORNER:  And then if we go to the last page -- sorry, the

23     second to last page in the English.  And in the B/C/S it is page 5.  It's

24     got a little 5, but it's 0074-9773.  Sorry, not the last page.  Can we go

25     back to the one before the last page in English.  Okay.  Sorry about

Page 1994

 1     this.  Forget certified.  It's the page before that.  Yes, no.  No,

 2     before.  Before, before, before.  Page 9 of 12 at the bottom it says, in

 3     English.  Yes.

 4        Q.   There's a list of all of those criminal reports that have been

 5     sent in, and we can see that from your municipality it's the smallest

 6     virtually.  And then at the last paragraph:

 7             "For known reasons of nonfunctional judiciary organs in this area

 8     reports are not timely filed, although the majority of cases are

 9     processed and completed, what will be done."

10             What was the problem about the judicial organs?

11        A.   As I have said earlier, Trebinje was under the jurisdiction of

12     the District Court in Mostar.  So there was just the basic court in

13     existence.  At the time it was called the Municipal Court in Trebinje,

14     and at that time it wasn't functioning for the simple reason that some of

15     the judges had been mobilised.  You won't believe it, but there were --

16     they were.  And as for the judges that I know, I used to know one of them

17     who was a Muslim.  He had moved away to Zenica.  We still are in contact

18     to this day.  His name as Kurtovic Sudo, and I think that that was the

19     reason.  So there used to be just two or three judges before the war so

20     that the court didn't start operating right away until new judges came in

21     from Mostar.

22        Q.   I just want to look at one example of a report that you were

23     involved in but can we ask, please, that this document be exhibited.

24     It's 65 ter 47.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 1995

 1             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P158, Your Honours.

 3             MS. KORNER:  All right.

 4        Q.   Can you, sir, in your binder go to divider 22.

 5             MS. KORNER:  And can we have on the screen, please, 65 ter 10060.

 6        Q.   This is a record of an on-site investigation.  The crime was May

 7     the 10th, 1992.  And if we go, please, to the last page in the B/C/S.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, the ... sorry, my mistake.  Can we -- not the

 9     last page in the C/B/S [sic].  It's an on-site investigation -- beg your

10     pardon.  Can we have, sorry, the first page.  Yes, in B/C/S.  That's

11     right.  And the first page in the B/C/S.  Yes, dated the 4th of February.

12        Q.   This is addressed to the public security station Trebinje.  The

13     date is actually the 4th of February, 1993, and we see the head of the

14     SJB, Aleksandar Krulj, but the offence was May the 10th, 1992, and what

15     happened was that artillery shells seemed to have damaged the Orthodox

16     cemetery.  Is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And can you tell us, first of all, why would the date of the

19     report that you sent be in February of 1993?

20        A.   I can't remember the reason now.  I did sign this criminal

21     report, this criminal complaint.  Whether it was only the fact that they

22     were not functioning, I don't know, but I can say that starting on the

23     10th of April, almost on a daily basis 20 to 30 shells fell on Ljubinje,

24     the inhabited part.  So all of the buildings were damaged by the shells,

25     private houses, socially-owned houses, villages, buildings, and so on.

Page 1996

 1     If in wartime one were to create such on-site investigation reports and

 2     file criminal reports, I don't know if it would be possible, because this

 3     was a war area after all.  And in this particular case, somebody -- some

 4     of the religious officials asked us to compile this report, and we did

 5     file a criminal report.  And as you could hear just now, the courts were

 6     not functioning at the time when this record was made.

 7             I gave you an explanation.  I don't know.  That's how it was.

 8        Q.   Right.  All right.  On the subject of -- of religious damage,

 9     destruction, was there a mosque in the town of Ljubinje?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   What happened to that?

12        A.   I think that during night-time some kind of an explosive device

13     was planted there.

14        Q.   And was it -- it was planted.  Did it go off?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  And the majority of it was torn down.  When I say a

16     device, I'm referring to an explosive device.

17        Q.   Can you give us a rough idea of when that was?

18        A.   I think that it happened sometime in early June, and I think that

19     we have records of that at our police station.  I can't give you the

20     exact date, but I think it was early June.

21        Q.   So this destruction wasn't the result of shelling but somebody

22     planting explosives.  Did you ever find the perpetrator?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Did you see if you could find the perpetrator?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1997

 1        Q.   Who was if possession of explosives at that time of the -- the

 2     events?

 3        A.   Well, the military -- or, rather, the engineering corps.

 4        Q.   Was there also a Catholic church in the town?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did anything happen to that during these events of 1992?

 7        A.   Nothing.  Not a single bullet was fired into that church.  It

 8     remained intact as it used to be, and now they have added some more to

 9     it, so it's bigger now.

10        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, this wasn't on our 65 ter list, but

12     it's a document that this gentleman dealt with.  May it be admitted as an

13     exhibit?

14             JUDGE HALL:  There --

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  We do not object to this document.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P159, Your Honours.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   All right.  Mr. Krulj, I want to move to a very big meeting that

23     you attended on the 11th of July of 1992.

24             MS. KORNER:  Could we have 65 ter number 198, please.

25        Q.   And you will find it behind divider number 9 in your bundle.

Page 1998

 1             Now, the document is headed "A brief analysis of the functioning

 2     of the MUP so far and the outlines of its future activities.  (Summary of

 3     the meeting of the MUP officials of the 11th of July, 1992)," and it's

 4     headed, the Ministry of the Internal Affairs.

 5             Can we turn, please, to the second page in both English and

 6     B/C/S.

 7             Does your name as attending appear in the second paragraph,

 8     roughly three lines from the bottom of that paragraph?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   And the meeting, it was attended by really the great and the

11     good, Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Kljajic, Mr. Skipina, Mr. Kusmuk, everybody and

12     everybody, as we can see.

13             There were very few members of the heads of the SJBs present.

14     Just yourself, was it, and Mr. Cokorilo?  Is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And also Mr. Petar Mihajlovic was their from the Federal Republic

17     of Yugoslavia, but do you know why you were asked to attend this meeting,

18     and I should ask you this first:  Who asked you to attend the meeting?

19        A.   Krsto Savic asked me to attend.  Since this was a rather serious

20     meeting they needed information on the security situation, so it was up

21     to me to inform them about the situation regarding the police and Jovo

22     Cokorilo about the crime rate and so on.  I think that I was invited

23     because, I can say so openly, I was qualified for this particular area.

24     Before the war I used to work as a police inspector.  I controlled the

25     work of all police station, Mostar, Neum, Rudo, in the area of the entire

Page 1999

 1     Herzegovina and that was my speciality, my professional speciality.  So

 2     this is why I informed them about the security situation, and it's most

 3     likely that Krsto selected me because other chiefs had just started

 4     working.  They were new to their jobs and they probably weren't as

 5     familiar with the topic as I was.

 6        Q.   All right.  We'll come to what you dealt with in a minute, but if

 7     we go in the English to page 5 of 29, and in the B/C/S to the third --

 8     no, sorry, one, two, three, four ... it's 0324-1852 at the top.

 9             Stojan Zupljanin was the first to speak.  Was he somebody that

10     you knew?  Sorry, after Mico Stanisic, rather.

11        A.   I didn't understand your question.

12        Q.   Sorry.  Did you know Stojan Zupljanin before this meeting?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Now, he made a very, very long speech indeed, and I would like

15     you to have a look, please, at -- and it's the English page 8 at the

16     bottom and in the B/C/S it is page 0324-1855, I think.  At least I hope

17     so.

18             Do you see a paragraph, sir, that begins "The army and the Crisis

19     Staffs/wartime Presidencies"?  Can you see that in the B/C/S?

20        A.   I can.

21        Q.   " ... demand gathering as many Muslims as possible and leave such

22     non-defined camps to the internal affairs."

23             Now, in your municipality or in any that you knew about from your

24     meetings at Trebinje, were the army and Crisis Staffs demanding Muslims

25     should be gathered together and put in camps which were being run by the

Page 2000

 1     police?

 2        A.   What I see here is that this was something that the army and the

 3     Crisis Staffs asked for.  I can say that in the territory of my

 4     municipality there was no such thing.  No population was gathered.  There

 5     was nothing of this sort.  I heard that this happened in Bileca, but I

 6     don't think it lasted for a long time, at least that's what I heard, as

 7     far as our area is concerned, and it's the first time that I see here

 8     that something like that was asked for.

 9        Q.   But -- I mean, you were present at the meeting.  First of all, I

10     suppose I should ask you, did you get a copy of those minutes?

11        A.   The security centre received it.  I think there was a copy at

12     Krsto's, and I think I read it.  All right.  But what I'm saying is I saw

13     that then.  I found out about it.  I found out about these things then.

14        Q.   Right.  All right then.  I want to go through this fairly quickly

15     because it's a fairly long document and it's bound to be -- come up

16     again.

17             Krsto Savic spoke and gave a -- a rundown on what was happening

18     in Trebinje.  Then Mico Stanisic again.

19             Can we come, please, to page 14 in the English, and I think it's

20     page 12 in the B/C/S.

21             MS. KORNER:  Can we go down the page in English, please.  Thank

22     you.

23        Q.   "Mico Stanisic emphasised that the government was working on a

24     new political territorial division of the Serb republic in order to avoid

25     the previously necessary forms of Serbs autonomous districts and regions

Page 2001

 1     and to introduce districts."

 2             Now, were you aware of the formation of the Serb autonomous

 3     regions?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And did you in your area -- which Serb autonomous region did you

 6     come under in your area?

 7        A.   The Autonomous Region of Herzegovina, or Eastern Herzegovina.  I

 8     don't remember exactly what the name was.

 9        Q.   As far as you were concerned, was there any role played by the

10     leader of the autonomous districts in that area?

11        A.   As far as the police was concerned, no.

12        Q.   And then can we move, please, to Mr. Kusmuk.  Page 17 in the

13     English, and I think it's page 14 in the B/C/S.  I'll just see if I've

14     got that right.

15             Now, Mr. Kusmuk was the assistant minister for police affairs and

16     tasks, and he -- in the second dash in his speech says:

17              "Determining the exact number of policemen who will be

18     exclusively engaged in tasks in their jurisdiction and determining the

19     number of reserve police for the sake of professional work.  In

20     connection to that, it is necessary to determine Special Police Units for

21     work from the jurisdiction of the MUP."

22             We're going to look at a number of other meetings you attended

23     where the Special Police were discussed, but by July of 1992, were you

24     aware of any Special Police operating in the jurisdiction of the Trebinje

25     CSB?

Page 2002

 1        A.   There was one unit called Special Police, but this was not under

 2     the jurisdiction of the CSB, because the CSB wasn't formed as yet.  This

 3     was formed by the government of the SAO of Herzegovina, and there were a

 4     couple of people who were active policemen.  None from my station,

 5     though, but the rest of the unit comprised criminals and who knows what

 6     sort.  They had camouflage uniforms, and they were called Special Unit,

 7     but they had nothing to do with the security services centre.  And Kusmuk

 8     says here that it should be formed the way it was done before the war and

 9     the way it's done -- or it's supposed to be done, and these are special

10     units of the police where it is exactly specified what their duties are

11     in peacetime and wartime.

12        Q.   Right.  Well, first of all, you say the CSB wasn't formed as

13     yet -- oh, sorry.  I'm sorry.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry.  Your Honours, there -- the two -- the two

15     terms that the witness used, and in Serbian they're -- they're quite

16     distinct, but they have been -- there is a distinction about the units of

17     the police that he talked just right now and the one which he was --

18     addressed before, and they're both translated as Special Police Units.

19     Now, I can deal with that during my cross-examination, but I just wanted

20     to put you on notice that there is a problem with -- with that.  If you

21     allow me, I will deal with that.  Thank you.

22             MS. KORNER:  Well, I don't think we should leave it.  We'll try

23     and sort it out now.

24        Q.   Mr. Krulj, you're talking about a unit that you say was formed by

25     the government of the SAO.  Can you -- what were they called?

Page 2003

 1        A.   Special Unit, Specijalna Jedinica of the police.

 2        Q.   And then you talked about another unit that was before the war,

 3     which you also called Special Unit.  Is it a different term in Serbian

 4     from Specijalna?

 5        A.   I will try to explain very briefly.  I will try.  I worked on

 6     these duties, and during the war in the law and also during the war --

 7     before the war and during the war members of the Posebna Jedinica

 8     comprised of members of regular and reserve forces from the stations.

 9     These are younger people up to the age of 28, and they are used in order

10     to prevent arming in greater numbers, destruction of sabotage groups,

11     assistance when there's some natural catastrophes.  During the war these

12     units in the station zone are engaged in combat areas in a specific area.

13     In later organisation, a Posebna Jedinica was established at the public

14     security centre.  This unit is headed by an inspector from the police who

15     deals with preparations and defence and heads that unit.  There is a unit

16     like that in every -- there are members of that unit from each

17     municipality.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the numbers of

19     the units from the different municipalities.

20             MS. KORNER:

21        Q.   You're going too fast, Mr. Krulj.  How many members are there

22     from each municipality?

23        A.   It depends on the number of the police.  There were five from

24     some municipalities, ten from others.  These were men who were fit to

25     serve on complex assignments.  These units still today are used, for

Page 2004

 1     example, when there are high-risk football matches.  Then the unit would

 2     be assembled in Trebinje under the command of an inspector from the

 3     centre.

 4             This has nothing to do with the Specijalna Policija.

 5        Q.   Right.  Now, I want to concentrate on what you called the

 6     Specijalna Policija, the one that was performed by the SAO?

 7        A.   We have nothing to do with that police.  We got a detachment of

 8     the Specijalna Policija in June 1993.  This was in the area of Trebinje,

 9     and it was part of the police brigade, but we had no jurisdiction over

10     that unit.

11        Q.   Yes.  Sorry.  I -- I'm not disputing for the moment anything.  I

12     just want to find out a little bit more about this unit.  This unit, you

13     say it was formed by the SAO.  By who in the SAO?

14        A.   I don't know.  The government.

15        Q.   Right.  And who was the -- do you know who the head of the

16     government was of the SAO Herzegovina?

17        A.   Vucurevic was the president and the prime minister was Bojovic.

18     I think it was Bojovic.  I don't know the first name.

19        Q.   And you said that this unit was formed of -- sorry, can we just

20     go back in LiveNote to -- what she actually said?

21             Right.  There were a -- yes.  You said there were a couple of

22     people who were active policemen, but the rest of the unit comprised

23     criminals.

24             How -- how did you know that?

25        A.   Well, I didn't say criminals.  I said people who were on the

Page 2005

 1     boundary of or on the boundary of the good side of the law.  They could

 2     be thugs.

 3             I explained that earlier.  When we worked after those events,

 4     many of those in the civilian authority didn't have confidence in the MUP

 5     because they believed that we were a remnant of the old system, and this

 6     is where we had problems in our operation regardless of how professional

 7     we were in the force.

 8        Q.   Yes, sorry, but how did you find out about these Special Police

 9     that you say had two active policemen at least?

10        A.   Well, every time I went to Trebinje I found out.  Of course, this

11     unit was discussed, that it existed, that it went to assist here and

12     there in the front near Mostar or Dubrovnik.  This is what I know.  This

13     was some kind of informal conversation in the town.  There was no

14     connection either in terms of logistics or establishment with the

15     Ministry of Internal Affairs.  I didn't ask for their services and nobody

16     else did.

17        Q.   No, but if it had two active policemen in it, how do you know it

18     had absolutely no connection with the Ministry of Internal Affairs?  And

19     not too fast, please, Mr. Krulj, because the interpreters are having

20     problems.

21        A.   Many members of the police left the police force at the time.

22     Some went to the army.  Some were in this unit.  The unit was not

23     accountable to anybody at the security centre.  All I can say is that I

24     heard that it existed.

25        Q.   Well --

Page 2006

 1        A.   And that it didn't exist that long.

 2        Q.   Sorry.  Did you speak to Krsto Savic about this unit to find out

 3     what he -- what connection, if any, he had with it?

 4        A.   I don't know.  We did talk for sure, but I cannot remember.  I

 5     don't know the connection that he had with it.  Perhaps the fact that it

 6     was engaged in the Nevesinje front, that could be the only connection,

 7     but we did talk about, and it was known that they were engaged at the

 8     Trebinje and Dubrovnik fronts.

 9        Q.   All right.  And you said -- lastly, you said that the CSB hadn't

10     been formed.  But by July of 1992, there was a CSB at Trebinje, wasn't

11     there?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   All right.  And then finally, can we look at what you said, and

14     Mr. Planojevic.  You spoke -- it's our page 18 of 29 in English, and I

15     think you'll find it -- sorry, that's one thing I haven't marked.

16             We see Mr. Nedjus [phoen] speaking, first of all, and then you.

17        A.   What page?

18        Q.   Yes.  That's, unfortunately, one thing I failed to mark.

19             Did you find it?  Could you just tell us the page so we get the

20     right part on the screen.  I think it's -- yes, I see Mr. Nedjus now.

21        A.   Sixteen.

22        Q.   Sixteen.  Thank you.  When you spoke, Mr. Krulj, you directed,

23     according to the minutes, your speech towards the supply of personnel and

24     the operation of paramilitary formations.  Can you now remember, and if

25     you can't, what you were actually -- what your topic of -- what you were

Page 2007

 1     raising for discussion?

 2        A.   I already said that, that I was invited to the meeting, the topic

 3     of which, as you can see, was that the level to which the centre was

 4     manned was not even 10 per cent.  The police stations also were suffering

 5     from shortage of active police officers, people who are familiar with

 6     police work.  And I can see here that others said that we needed to

 7     engage policemen who were refugees from Mostar or Stolac, not even from

 8     our -- that we need to accept them in our region and replenish our ranks

 9     in that way.

10             As far as paramilitary formations were concerned, I also said

11     that we didn't have any in the area of our municipality.  There was a

12     group, local thugs.  I don't say they were criminals.  They tried to

13     engage units of that sort, but I prevented this.  This happened in the

14     Mostar area, I think in Nevesinje.  There was a small group.  I just

15     reminded myself about that by reading the material.  Berkovici.  These

16     were units of some kind of volunteer forces who arrived without any kind

17     of command, any kind of equipment, and their only, their sole objective

18     was looting.

19        Q.   All right.  And you say you were able to prevent them, were you?

20        A.   I did that in Ljubinje, yes.

21        Q.   What happened in our municipalities, though, Bileca and Gacko,

22     for example?

23        A.   I really don't know any details about that.

24        Q.   All right.  Well, I want to leave that meeting, thank you very

25     much, because other witnesses will talk about other matters.  But may it

Page 2008

 1     now be exhibited, Your Honour.  That was 198, 65 ter 198?

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P160, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   Very quickly could you have a look, please, at document behind

 7     divider 10, which is 65 ter 992.  First page in B/C/S, second page in

 8     English.

 9             This is a report of the 20th of July.

10             MS. KORNER:  Second page in English, please.  It was along the

11     last meeting.  Thanks.  At the top.  At the top of the page, please.  No,

12     that's not -- that's the first -- no, no, it is.  Third -- I do beg your

13     pardon.  Third page in English.  It's my fault.  And second page in

14     B/C/S.  Yes.

15        Q.   At the top of the page there, it's the last sentence in the

16     paragraph.

17             MS. KORNER:  Can we bring down -- you've got Trebinje back again,

18     please, in B/C/S, not Bijeljina.  Yes.

19        Q.   "An increasing volume of misinformation is affecting the

20     political situation in the centre's area by giving rise to anxiety and

21     concern amongst the population."

22             Do you -- do you know what that refers to?

23        A.   I don't know.  This is not an official matter for the police to

24     be assessing the political situation.  Perhaps -- and it has to do with

25     the kind of misinformation that somebody of the -- from the politician

Page 2009

 1     ranks sold the territory, that such and such forces captured a certain

 2     area.

 3             The misinformation was spread by those who deserted from the

 4     army, not by the media.  I really cannot talk about the political

 5     circumstances.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... we have on

 7     the -- on the screen is not exactly what Ms. Korner was asking for.  I

 8     think she was mentioned -- she asked for Trebinje, and we still have

 9     Bijeljina on the screens.  We can follow, but I think the accused should

10     be able to follow this as well.  Thank you.

11             MS. KORNER:  That's okay.  I appreciate that.  It should be --

12     no.  I think that is Trebinje.  It's the last paragraph that I'm looking

13     at, which should say what it say in English.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I thought that was right.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, could you also assist the Chamber in

17     explaining or getting back to what is this document?

18             MS. KORNER:  Oh, right.  Yes.  It's a -- well, perhaps we better

19     go back to the first page.

20             This is another daily report, I think.

21        Q.   Is that right?

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  From whom to whom?

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   Mr. Krulj, are you able to assist?

25        A.   In handwriting it says "Bulletin of daily events" of the 20th of

Page 2010

 1     July, 1992, and it's report number 70.  But it doesn't look like a

 2     bulletin to me, because there was a daily bulletin.

 3        Q.   Yes.  It's headed "CSB Romanija-Birac."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And where was that?

 6        A.   And it's sorted by centres.

 7        Q.   Yeah.

 8        A.   The Romanija-Birac CSB was headquartered in Sokolac.

 9        Q.   And was that CSB -- yes, I see.  It's one the CSBs that came

10     within the SAO Herzegovina; is that right?

11        A.   No, this is the CSB near Sarajevo.  The Trebinje Security

12     Services Centre existed for Eastern Herzegovina, but now we're talking

13     about the area around Sarajevo geographically.

14        Q.   And have you seen one -- a document like this before?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Well, in fact we've got a number of them.  If you go very quickly

17     to the next document, which is 65 ter 994.  That's -- oh, we're still not

18     on that yet.

19             MS. KORNER:  In English, please.

20        Q.   That's number 72, the 22nd of July.  And we've got a third one,

21     number 74, the 25th of July.

22             So you -- you don't know who prepared these documents?  Don't

23     worry, Mr. Krulj, I'm not going to spend much more time on them.

24        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 2011

 1             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I'm not at this stage proposing

 2     to try and exhibit them.

 3             Right.  Can we come next, please, again fairly swiftly, I hope,

 4     to a report of the 4th of August.  Behind divider 14 for you, and it is

 5     65 ter 324.  Sorry.  324.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   This is a report dated the 4th of August, 1992, addressed, is it

 7     right, to the ministry of the interior in Sarajevo, subject, "Information

 8     on the activities of the so-called paramilitary formations.  Reference:

 9     Your memo.  Strictly confidential of the 19th of July."  And then in

10     closing it says, "Chief of Centre, Krsto Savic," but is it stamped and

11     signed by Mr. Milorad Cuk?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay, I want very quickly, please, to look at the contents of

14     this report, page 3 out of 10 in the English.  And page 3 in the B/C/S.

15             Now, this report was -- is written in -- in the Latin script,

16     isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Were -- were both Latin and Cyrillic used during this period?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And what it says in the first paragraph of this report is that on

21     the territory of the Ljubinje municipality no paramilitary groups ever

22     came.  Was that -- was that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   The next paragraph, however, describes other groups that

25     apparently came to other municipalities called the Seseljevci, the Beli

Page 2012

 1     Orlovi, small groups of Arkanovci, and other self-proclaimed groups under

 2     different names.  First, Seseljevci, those were Seselj's men, calling

 3     themselves, leaving aside whether he actually organised them?

 4        A.   I was informed about the security situation, so there would be a

 5     group, say, from Berkovici, from Stolac municipality and they would call

 6     themselves Arkan's men and it was a homeless person from that village who

 7     had killed 30 men or something like that and they would just give

 8     themselves those names, Seselj's men, Arkan's men.  Whatever the term was

 9     popular at the time, whatever term was bandied about.  They would be

10     called Children Of Hell, Parachutists, White Eagles and so on, all sorts

11     of names.  It says here on page 3.

12        Q.   Yes, quite.  Yes, exactly.  If you look, please --

13        A.   Samardzic.

14        Q.   Yeah.  You mentioned the -- the Berkovici incident.  If you look,

15     please, at the third page in B/C/S and the second page in the -- so

16     sorry, page 5 because of the stamps.

17             We see that after the war conflicts have started on the territory

18     of Stolac a group about 20 members of Seseljevci came to Berkovici.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, again page 49, line 13.  I don't believe

20     the witness said killed 30 men.  I think he said something else.  If you

21     can clarify with the witness.

22             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

23        Q.   You were talking about people calling themselves Arkan's men, and

24     you said it was a homeless person from that village who had killed 30

25     men.  Did you say killed or did you say something different?

Page 2013

 1        A.   I didn't say anything of the sort.  On page 3 you have that.  In

 2     mid-July in Berkovici, a group of five to six persons arrived and

 3     introduced themselves as Arkan's men.  They were led by Samardzic Jovo, a

 4     person who was born in this area who is currently residing in Belgrade.

 5     They were issued with automatic weapons by the army and --

 6        Q.   Okay.  Pause for a minute.  We just need --

 7        A.   I didn't mention that somebody had killed somebody.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can we -- we need to go to page 7 of 10 in the

 9     English.  What you've just been reading is it shown on the -- yeah.  The

10     incident that's described there, Jovo Samardzic.

11        Q.   And finally on this document.  In the paragraph that talks about

12     the Seseljevci again, in Bileca that attacks the property, especially of

13     persons of Muslim nationality entering their homes, flats, taking their

14     cars away, looting.

15             Were -- at the meetings that you attended of the SJB chiefs in

16     the CSB, did you hear about this?

17        A.   Yes, and you can see it here in this paragraph.  It's written

18     here.

19        Q.   Yes, thank you very much.  That's all I wanted to ask you about

20     that document?

21             MS. KORNER:  May that be exhibited.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P161, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, it's time for a break, but before we

25     rise, the -- in terms of the matter that you raised this morning, there

Page 2014

 1     are a number of steps that in our ruling we propose to be followed.

 2             In proofing, the Prosecution would have or should have asked the

 3     witness ST-111 whether he's familiar with any of the documents such as he

 4     is unable to testify about them, and in which case such documents would

 5     prima facie be inadmissible through that witness.  And in an effort to

 6     assist the registrar, the Prosecution shall provide the registrar and

 7     copy to the Defence and the Chamber an electronic list of the documents

 8     to which the witness can testify.  And at the beginning of the witness's

 9     testimony, using one or two examples from each of the three categories of

10     documents as you have identified them, the Prosecution will explain their

11     relevance to the particular case.  Following that, the Chamber will then

12     mark for identification the documents to which the witness can testify,

13     and the registrar will thereafter circulate to the parties and the

14     Chamber an electronic list indicating the relevant MFI numbers, and the

15     Chamber will rule upon the admission into evidence of the documents after

16     the conclusion of cross-examination.

17             So as I said, there are a number of steps which we think should

18     simplify the management of this hundred --

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I don't think -- I can't

20     have made myself clear.  Each and every one of the documents -- the list

21     has already been provided electronically to the Chamber and to the

22     Defence last Thursday, are documents to which the witness can speak of

23     his own knowledge.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Oh.  That has been done.  So the 100 fall into that

25     category.

Page 2015

 1             MS. KORNER:  I think 108 or whatever it is.  Yes.  Your Honor, I

 2     don't personally propose to proof Mr. Djeric.  Mr. Djeric is going

 3     through the documents now, other than to say are there any documents

 4     about which you can't speak?  I take the -- I take the view that

 5     Mr. Djeric is not somebody who ought to be treated as a witness to be

 6     proofed.  I'm simply going to ask him whether or not he is able to

 7     identify the documents.  But my understanding is that effectively he

 8     appears on each and every one of these documents.  So, therefore, that's

 9     it.  Therefore, what we're asking is whether we can have them all

10     admitted.  They're all on our 65 ter list in advance and purely

11     concentrate on ones on which he may be able to give a further explanation

12     and/or are samples of, for example, the Assembly minutes.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the -- Ms. Korner, the Chamber agrees with

14     devising a method to simplify bringing these documents in, but there are

15     two concerns that we have:  One is that the -- although the proofing

16     exercise would have, as far as the Prosecution is concerned, satisfied

17     you as to the relevance of the documents, the Chamber, and that is why we

18     propose random examples of -- of each of the categories, to show us how

19     they're relevant.  That's the first step.  And then the second step is

20     that the -- we still need to hear from the -- whether the Defence has

21     any -- well, how the documents survive cross-examination.  Let me put it

22     that way.  Hence, the two steps of them being marked for identification,

23     but they will only be given full exhibit numbers at the end of

24     cross-examination.

25             You think we have complicated matters for you.

Page 2016

 1             MS. KORNER:  Hmm.  I do.  I'm asking effectively if I can have

 2     them all pre-marked in advance.  Your Honours, can I assure you --

 3     Mr. Djeric was the president of the government.  It's hardly likely that

 4     the documents are not relevant to an issue in this case.  And they are on

 5     the 64 ter list.  Now, I heard what Mr. Zecevic said yesterday -- no,

 6     last Thursday about the Bosnian Serb Assembly being the democratic

 7     expression of people's opinions, but that's neither here nor there.  He

 8     may argue that.  Our case is these are all highly relevant documents to

 9     the -- if nothing else, the concept of joint criminal enterprise, because

10     the Assembly minutes that we have selected, and they're not all of them

11     by any stretch of the imagination, all deal with that aspect.  And so

12     whether --

13             JUDGE HALL:  May I suggest this, Ms. Korner, that during the

14     break that you look again at the transcript of what we have ruled and see

15     whether it is not as -- as unhelpful as your initial impression may lead

16     you to believe it is.

17             MS. KORNER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE HALL:  And if you would have picked up what Judge Harhoff

20     said sotto voce this would be a template for future exercises, so we want

21     to be sure that we get it right and that everybody understands how we're

22     going to go about it.

23             Twenty minutes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

Page 2017

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, before the witness enters, if I may

 4     address your instruction which you gave just before we adjourned.  If I

 5     may, I'll talk in Serbian just to be very precise.

 6             [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has a certain concern

 7     with respect to the instruction you just gave us.  If we understood your

 8     instruction correctly, in the practical terms that would mean that

 9     exhibits of the OTP would be marked for identification and then finally

10     admitted only after the completion of cross-examination.  By doing so --

11     or, rather, they would be admitted on the basis of cross-examination.

12     And in a sense, that puts on the shoulder of the Defence a certain

13     obligation with respect to each of the documents tendered by the OTP in

14     this speedy manner.  That would mean that we, the Defence, would need to

15     discuss each document with the witness in order to potentially prevent

16     that particular document from being admitted into evidence, which means

17     that the Defence would need about 12 documents for Djeric given the

18     number of documents.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The Defence would

20     need 12 days for Djeric given the number of documents.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That's one aspect of the problem.

22     The other aspect is that the burden of proof is by doing so being shifted

23     to the Defence.  That was the conclusion of our brief analysis done just

24     now.

25             We have certain proposals in that respect as to how to resolve

Page 2018

 1     this, but we really didn't have time during this short break to consult

 2     amongst ourselves.  We only had a brief conversation with our learned

 3     friends from the Prosecution, but we would like to be given a very clear

 4     instruction from the Trial Chamber, because this is a very complicated

 5     situation.  It requires time.

 6             And thirdly, the entire trial would need to be organised in a

 7     different way in that case given the amount of time that is needed for

 8     the Prosecution to present its case and the time needed for Defence to

 9     conduct its cross-examination.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, the purpose of this exercise is to save

12     time on all sides because of the large number of -- relatively large

13     number of documents with which we're dealing.  The -- allowing the

14     Prosecution to exhibit the documents in a bundle would -- had the

15     Prosecution -- if the Prosecution is not permitted to examine -- to

16     exhibit the documents in a bundle, it seems to me that your apprehension

17     as to having to test the witness on each of the documents would be made

18     much more difficult without gainsaying the incidence of the burden of

19     proof in this exercise.

20             The Chamber's ruling that the documents having been all put in

21     and marked for -- for the sense of being marked for identification

22     doesn't shift the burden of proof to the Defence.  All it does is to

23     permit the Defence to show in particular cases, because you would recall

24     that the first part of the ruling is that the -- without examining the

25     documents individually, the Prosecution would show generally from each of

Page 2019

 1     the three batches their relevance.  In a similar vein, the Defence would

 2     have an opportunity to show how they should not be finally admitted as

 3     exhibits that the Chamber should consider.  But the -- I return to the

 4     principle that the idea is to find a way to efficiently manage the

 5     process through -- through the hearing of a large number of documents.

 6             I trust I've made myself a little less unclear than I may have

 7     earlier.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  It is pretty

 9     clear to me what the position of the Trial Chamber is, and as far as I

10     was able to talk to my learned friend from the Prosecution, the interest

11     of the Defence is completely identical.  All of us here have an identical

12     interest.  It is in our interest to have this trial proceed as

13     efficiently as possible.  This is beyond dispute.

14             What is a fact, though, is that we have truly a huge amount of

15     documents, a huge amount of documents on which the Prosecution relies and

16     the same applies to the Defence.  We also rely on a huge number of

17     documents.

18             In this very peculiar situation, the Prosecution has explained

19     that they wish to prove via these documents, via a selection of these

20     documents, the existence of joint criminal enterprise, which is one of

21     the key matters in this trial.

22             On the other hand, if we are talking of a selection, the

23     Prosecution will select the documents that support their case, that

24     support their theory in this case, and then the Defence, in that case,

25     will be forced to introduce other documents which support our case, which

Page 2020

 1     support our theory.

 2             That is the substance of this system applied in this Tribunal.

 3     And we will then find ourselves in a situation where the Defence will

 4     need a huge amount of time to conduct cross-examination of witnesses who

 5     will testify about these facts.  I think that we have two such witnesses

 6     coming this week.

 7             This is why I'm not so sure that this instruction of yours is the

 8     best method of accomplishing what all of us together want, and on the

 9     basis of that, I believe that perhaps we need to give it some more

10     thought, and perhaps we should hear from all sides once both the

11     Prosecution and the Defence are a bit more prepared to discuss this to

12     see what other possibilities exist in order to ensure what all of us want

13     and what all of us have a right to, and to also have an efficient trial

14     at the same time.

15             I hope that the Trial Chamber has understood.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, I'm a bit surprised by -- by this

17     objection of yours.  The nature in which evidence is brought before this

18     Tribunal is no different from the nature and the method by which evidence

19     is brought in any other trial, including in your own jurisdiction.  It

20     goes without saying that the Prosecution brings its evidence and the

21     Defence brings counter-evidence.  I mean, that's the nature of these

22     trials.

23             As for these exhibits, here, too, what the Chamber proposes is no

24     different from what applies to every other piece of evidence.  Of course

25     we will not admit into evidence anything without having given the Defence

Page 2021

 1     the chance to counter it.  And this is why we say that Mrs. Korner can

 2     bring this whole bunch of documents, 108 documents, and we will MFI them,

 3     and if the Defence has specific reasons why it wishes to challenge some

 4     of them, it can do so, and then we will, after the completion of the

 5     cross-examination, then take the position of whether those particularly

 6     challenged documents should also come into evidence.  But otherwise,

 7     we'll have to accept that they will be admitted, and if, then, when you

 8     come to the Defence case you wish to bring evidence to show the contrary

 9     of what these documents tend to show, then that's your duty to do it at

10     that time.  But I don't think it's -- it makes sense to -- to seek to go

11     into each of the 108 documents now and try to challenge them.  We have

12     looked at the documents, and most of them seem to us to be official

13     documents coming out from various institutions at the time, minutes and

14     so on, and it's difficult to challenge their existence.  So you'll have

15     to accept the fact that they will be admitted, unless for some of them, I

16     suppose a few of them, you can really prove that they cannot be admitted

17     because they are unauthorised or for some other reason that goes to their

18     authenticity.  That's what we will give you a chance to do, to challenge

19     their authenticity, their truthfulness, their reliability, and if you can

20     do that then we won't admit them, but otherwise we will.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, a very basic question which may --

22     perhaps maybe that this is much ado about nothing.  Are you right now in

23     a position to say whether -- no, I'll rephrase.

24             Do you know already right now that if we go through all those

25     documents with this witness that you won't object to any of those

Page 2022

 1     documents be tendered as an exhibit through this witness?  Perhaps you

 2     already know that as the Prosecutor says this is so obvious that this

 3     witness knows about all those documents, so if we go through them all

 4     they will be admitted without any problem.  If you know that that's the

 5     case, then perhaps we are discussing for nothing.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't think that

 7     you have understood me well.  I understood the ruling by the Trial

 8     Chamber and what His Honour the Presiding Judge said about the

 9     instruction that on the basis of random samples of a couple of documents

10     we would accept the entire category of documents, say 50 of them in a

11     batch from different sessions and so on.

12             I apologise.  I see that the Trial Chamber's --

13             JUDGE HALL:  If I may interrupt you at this point, and it may

14     have been I didn't fully explain myself.  The question of the random

15     sampling is the Prosecution showing -- showing us prima facie the

16     relevance, and basically we have, as Judge Delvoie has said, is

17     essentially the nature of the documents is that we have virtually passed

18     that stage.

19             You would have -- because these documents would have all been

20     provided to the Defence as part of the preliminary exercise, you would

21     know what -- you would already -- or ought to already know what these

22     documents are, so that you aren't limited to challenging the samples that

23     the Prosecution chooses to use.  The cross-examination being at large,

24     you have before you the whole 108 on which they rely.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely where the problem

Page 2023

 1     lies, Your Honours.

 2             This means -- I understood you well.  We fully understood each

 3     other.

 4             These documents would be marked for identification, and then

 5     after the completion of cross-examination, the Trial Chamber would decide

 6     which of them would become exhibits and which wouldn't, which means that,

 7     of course, the Defence is not only going to work on the basis of the

 8     documents presented by the Prosecution, but it has to respond to all 108

 9     documents.  So these are not documents where we challenge their validity,

10     authenticity, and so on.  These are documents of the Presidency,

11     documents of the government, documents of the Assembly, and so on.

12             What is the problem here is the conclusion, the selection of

13     these documents which is conducted by the Prosecution, because by

14     selecting these documents, they, in our view, wish to convince the

15     Chamber, to make the Chamber reach a wrong conclusion, wrong in our

16     opinion.  And in order for us to prevent that, we will be forced to

17     challenge each of these documents in order to prove that our theory, our

18     case, is stronger and that these documents, as a matter of fact, do not

19     prove the existence of joint criminal enterprise but, rather, something

20     else that is part of our case.

21             This is why I'm afraid that this would bring us into a situation

22     where the Defence would need a huge amount of time to cross-examine

23     witnesses who are from this category.

24             I agree with Judge Harhoff in the sense that this is not

25     something completely new or something that does not exist in our local

Page 2024

 1     jurisdictions.  What is really particular in relation to this Tribunal is

 2     that we have a huge amount of documents here.  We have documents from

 3     four different state organs over approximately one period of time.  So

 4     this is a huge amount of material.  And this is where the problem arises.

 5     Not because of the way these documents are introduced, not because of the

 6     character of this trial, but because of the simple fact that we're

 7     dealing with an enormous amount of documents.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, to understand you well, let me ask

 9     you two questions.  First question is:  Would it suit you better if we

10     accepted -- if the Trial Chamber accepted all those documents as exhibits

11     before cross-examination rather than after?  That's my first question.

12             Second question is:  In your opinion, is the only alternative

13     that we have to spend 12 hearing days with the witness on each and every

14     of these documents?  You said 12 hearing days, but -- not by you but by

15     the Prosecutor.  Is that for you the only alternative, the only good way

16     to do it?

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Absolutely not.  Absolutely not,

18     Your Honours.  What I'm trying to do is point out to the Trial Chamber

19     possible repercussions of your instruction, possible consequences of your

20     instruction.  It is possible that this could arise.  I do not consider

21     this an alternative, and I do not consider this to be a good alternative,

22     because otherwise it would take us four years to complete this trial.

23             It is quite clear that it suits us better to have this document

24     marked for identification and then admitted after cross-examination.

25     This is beyond dispute.  What I was trying to achieve by this submission

Page 2025

 1     is to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to the fact that this could

 2     produce certain negative consequences, and this is why I propose that we

 3     get together with the OTP to see whether there is an alternative method

 4     by which we would achieve what the Trial Chamber wishes and what all of

 5     us wish without having such a situation where the interests of the

 6     Defence would be threatened.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I -- can I add to this?  You saw

 8     my reaction you gave to the ruling.  The problem here is not so much the

 9     quantity of documents, although I hear what Judge Harhoff says, but the

10     time limits that have been imposed upon this trial.  On earlier trials

11     that I did here, we did not have these time limits, and we went through

12     every document.

13             It is not possible.  All the documents on this list, I am pretty

14     certain but I'm having checked and certainly all the minutes from the

15     national security council, the Bosnian Serb Assembly, and the government

16     have been admitted already in other trials of the Bosnian Serb

17     leadership, which is why I say it seems to me that it is a complete waste

18     of time to go through every document to see whether they're relevant and

19     admissible.  They are clearly relevant.  We would submit they are clearly

20     admissible.

21             What we wish to concentrate on with Mr. Djeric is those documents

22     which do not fall into those three categories but which are more

23     directives from him.  And those are the ones we need to concentrate on

24     and which, if you've read his testimony in Krajisnik, you will see there

25     are complications because he says one thing on one page and another thing

Page 2026

 1     on another page about it.

 2             If the documents are all admitted, then Mr. Zecevic in

 3     cross-examination can put forward the documents that he actually wants to

 4     bring to the attention of the Trial Chamber and Mr. Djeric, and it would

 5     save a lot of time.  The other alternative is that we agree, the Defence

 6     and the Prosecution, that these documents are all relevant and should be

 7     admitted.  And I'm afraid that I know Judge Harhoff is very keen on no

 8     documents, if at all possible, but this is a document case.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm sorry, Mrs. Korner, at no point have I said

10     that I don't want to have any documents presented in this case.

11             The Chamber's position is clear.  We have ruled that from a

12     preliminary view these 108 documents seem to us to be admissible.  Now,

13     should the Defence be able to knock out some of them for reasons of

14     authenticity, they are free to do so.  This is why we MFI them to begin

15     with.  And then the Defence may show that some of them are not authentic

16     or otherwise suffer from formal defects which speak to their not being

17     admitted.

18             Now, to Mr. Zecevic, I would say that if the documents that have

19     been selected by the Prosecution do show that a joint criminal enterprise

20     existed, and if you have other documents that show that such an

21     enterprise did not exist, then the nature of these proceedings is such

22     that the Prosecution indeed is -- is required to put forward the

23     documents that speak to the existence of an enterprise, and you're

24     equally required to put forward the documents that do not.  And I don't

25     see that you have to challenge, necessarily, each and every one of the

Page 2027

 1     108 documents to prove your point.  It would appear to me that you

 2     should, rather, then bring forward the documents that show the opposite

 3     results, so the prima facie determination in respect of the 108 documents

 4     is that we agree that they are reliable and relevant, but we allow for

 5     the possibility that some of them may be knocked off for formal reasons,

 6     and you can then deal with that if you have any reason to do so.  But

 7     otherwise, I think if you wish to put to this witness documents that show

 8     that a joint criminal enterprise did not exist, then you should do so.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think I heard from both sides that you would

11     prefer to reach an agreement, Prosecutor and Defence.  If you can do that

12     by tomorrow and the agreement has the results that we all are looking

13     for, not to have 12 hearing days spent on these documents, then it's

14     fine.  If you can't, we must go on and the rule stands.  Is that a good

15     way of doing it?

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we'll try and get together this

17     afternoon and deal with this.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, in the 40 minutes before the break,

20     would I remind you that of those 40 minutes, you have 30 minutes left in

21     terms of your 2 hour and 30 minutes indication of time you would spend

22     with this witness.

23             The other matter that I would announce now is a housekeeping

24     matter.  For reasons, of course, external to this Chamber, when we take

25     the adjournment at 1.45, we will resume in this courtroom at 2.15

Page 2028

 1     tomorrow, not 9.00 in the morning.  Thank you.

 2             Could the witness return to the stand, please.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Can I just ask -- yes, are we going back to mornings

 4     after that?  So we've got 2.15 plus the 9.00?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  As far as we know.  I commented coming in, I take

 6     these things one day at a time.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, because of the time limit I'm going to

 9     gallop through the next lot of exhibits and only ask him to identify

10     certain items so that I can get them admitted.

11        Q.   Mr. Krulj, I'm afraid we don't have much time left, and I'm sorry

12     you've been kept waiting.

13             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up, and speed of getting these documents

14     on the screen would assist as well, please, document number 65 ter 302.

15        Q.   And you'll find that behind divider 16, Mr. Krulj.

16        A.   [In English] Okay.

17        Q.   This is a report from the CSB Trebinje, headed "The assessment of

18     the political and security situation in the territory of Trebinje."

19             Don't bother to turn the page up on the screen.  On the last page

20     it's dated the 19th of August, 1992.

21             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to the second page in the English, please.

22     And regrettably in the B/C/S it's got these ridiculous pages of

23     Mr. O'Donnell's stamp.

24        Q.   And can you find there the paragraph activities on the

25     disarmament of -- yes.  It's page 3 in the B/C/S, and it's the second

Page 2029

 1     paragraph on that page.

 2              "Activities on the disarmament of extreme Muslims are continuing

 3     in other municipalities.  The result of this action is a massive moving

 4     out of Muslims from Gacko, Nevesinje, Bileca, Ljubinje, and partially

 5     from Trebinje."

 6             Now, leaving aside whether it was the activities of disarmament

 7     of extreme Muslims, is that right, there was a massive moving out of

 8     Muslims from these municipalities?

 9        A.   Yes.  I don't know how the numbers were from Ljubinje, but I

10     already said that civilian authorities agree that there were no victims

11     in Ljubinje, that they had agreed with the members of the Muslim people

12     whether they wanted to go to Mostar or Montenegro, some of them went.

13     They handed over their property, handed the tractors, et cetera, to the

14     neighbours and to the -- for the safekeeping of the commission that was

15     in charge of that, and as far as I know, everything was returned to them

16     after the war.

17        Q.   All right.  That's in your municipality, Ljubinje.  What about

18     the others?  Was there a massive moving out from Gacko, Nevesinje,

19     Bileca?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.  Your Honours may that be made

22     an exhibit please.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P162, Your Honours.

25             MS. KORNER:  Right.

Page 2030

 1        Q.   Can you move next, please, to the exhibit -- 65 ter 225.  You'll

 2     find it behind divider 17, Mr. Krulj, in your binder.

 3             This is a document which is the summary from a MUP management

 4     working group held on the 20th of August, 1992, in Trebinje.

 5             If we go to the second page.  We can see that this meeting was

 6     attended by again the great and the good.  Mico Stanisic, Mr. Kljajic and

 7     the like.  Mr. Cuk if we go to the bottom of the page, attended from

 8     Trebinje, and I think you also attended this meeting, didn't you, with

 9     other chiefs of the SJBs?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.    I want to go, please, to page 6 in the English and page 4 in the

12     B/C/S, a paragraph that begins "Considering the situation in the field."

13             MS. KORNER:  No, it's 161.  Page 4, not page 3, please.  I'm

14     sorry, it's ERN number 161.  Thank you.  And sorry, in the English it's

15     page 6.  Oh, yes, sorry.  The -- yes.

16        Q.   Do you see the paragraph:  "Considering the situation in the

17     field and the need for timely action, he believes ..." and I suppose we

18     should say this is Mr. Savic speaking.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   " ... that a Special Police unit in the Trebinje CSB base is

21     required."

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So it wrote appear that by August there was no Special Police

24     Brigade set up in -- in Trebinje.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2031

 1        Q.   Right.  And again, I don't think I've got enough time to take

 2     you -- oh, yes.  No.  Can we go to one more paragraph.  It's page 11 in

 3     the English, and it's page -- sorry.  Yes.  Because we skipped, I think,

 4     where you spoke.  Sorry, I haven't marked that.  It's my fault.

 5             Can we just have the English.  At the bottom of the page.  Right.

 6             I'm not sure where that is in the B/C/S.  I'm sorry, it's my

 7     fault, but I haven't got time for you to find it, and I appreciate

 8     Mr. Stanisic may not be able to see it but I'll say it in English.

 9             After the minister explained the reasoning behind the order to

10     disband all special units and CSBs and SJBs he explained the principle of

11     the special unit of the MUP police detachment and the issue was further

12     explained by the detachment's commander Milenko Karisik.

13             Now, did you know -- Mr. Karisik was present at the meeting?  Did

14     you know him from before?

15        A.   A little bit.  While I worked in Mostar, I would meet him at the

16     MUP in Sarajevo.

17        Q.   All right.

18        A.   I met him once or twice.

19        Q.   And what did you understand was going to happen to police special

20     units that had been in SJBs and CSBs?

21        A.   I never called that Specijalna Jedinica, Posebna Jedinica of the

22     police, but this was required by the brigade because of the paramilitary

23     formations and unrest that occurred in some of the municipalities in

24     Eastern Herzegovina, and there was no detachment of the police brigade

25     formed for the Herzegovina region.

Page 2032

 1        Q.   All right.  Was there any explanation given at this meeting why,

 2     however, there should be one unified Special Police as opposed to the

 3     different groups which had been attached to the CSBs or the SJBs?

 4        A.   This was more or less a question of how they called them at the

 5     station, but it had to do with one of them having to be under the command

 6     of the commander of the brigade at the location where they were

 7     headquartered.  This is how I understood it anyway.

 8        Q.   All right.  And finally just to note at page 13 of the B/C/S and

 9     page 18 of the English, you actually spoke.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:  Could that please be admitted.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             MS. KORNER:

15        Q.   Again very quickly --

16             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise.  As Exhibit P163.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   All right.  Very quickly could we look at 37 -- 65 ter 373, and

19     behind divider 18 for you, Mr. Krulj.

20        A.   Very well.

21        Q.   This is a document dated the 28th of the 8th, 1992, apparently

22     signed and stamped by Mico Stanisic, addressed to the CSBs in Sarajevo,

23     Bijeljina, and Trebinje, informing the CSBs that commission for the OSCE,

24     in fact -- no, it's called the CSCE then, were going to visit prisons in

25     Pale, Bijeljina, Trebinje, Bileca and Foca.  All I want to know is were

Page 2033

 1     you informed by Mr. Stanisic or somebody else that there was this

 2     commission coming?

 3        A.   No.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours in those circumstances obviously

 5     a document is going to be admitted at some stage, I mean, we can either

 6     have it admitted as an exhibit now or I'll mark it for identification,

 7     because this witness wasn't told about it.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Marked for identification.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P164 marked for identification, Your

10     Honours.

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   Okay, next document then very quickly, which is 65 ter 1270.  And

13     behind your divider 19, Mr. Krulj.

14             This is a report which was received on the 22nd of August, 1992

15     and talks about two, effectively inspectors, Mr. Avlijas and Goran Saric

16     visiting Trebinje, Gacko, and Bileca.

17             Did you ever meet these gentlemen?

18        A.   Yes, Goran Saric later, yes.

19        Q.   All right.  And it says about halfway down the page in their

20     report:

21             "We have talked to the head of Bileca SJB Goran Vuckovic [sic]."

22             Firstly, did you know him?  Vujovic, sorry.

23        A.   Yes, I did.  He was the chief in Bileca.  I knew him from

24     meetings.

25        Q.   And were you aware as he apparently told the inspectors that 140

Page 2034

 1     Muslims were accommodated in the SJB premises?

 2        A.   I didn't know that, no.  I knew that there were some people there

 3     but not how many.  It says 140 here.

 4        Q.   All right.  And the inspectors pointed out that ten people in

 5     this group were over 60 and said that they should be released.

 6             If -- if as they were there for safety reasons, what was the

 7     relevance, as far as you can see, of them being over 60?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I'm seeing this document for the first time.

 9        Q.   All right.

10             MS. KORNER:  Can that be marked for identification, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P165 marked for identification, Your

13     Honours.

14             MS. KORNER:  All right.

15        Q.   Now, we've got another one of these bulletins which I won't

16     trouble you with.  It can come in.

17             Yes.  Can you look, please, swiftly at 65 ter 2762.  Oh, sorry,

18     behind divider 21, please, for you, Mr. Krulj.

19        A.   Very well.

20        Q.   And this is the 17th of September, 1992.  Sorry, it's dated the

21     9th of October.  And is this a document that appears to be sent by fax or

22     teleprinter or whatever it was called in those days?

23        A.   It's a document that is the usual way that was -- we communicated

24     in, and it's called a dispatch, and it was sent by the teleprinter.

25        Q.   Right.  And if we just look at the first page.  Yes, sorry.  It's

Page 2035

 1     the second page in B/C/S, and it's the third page in English.

 2             We see there that the SJB Ljubinje, there were seven criminal

 3     offences of which five were solved, a hundred and three criminal reports,

 4     and that CSB Trebinje, the SNB sector, submitted four criminal reports

 5     for war crimes against 138 persons in the killing of a group of citizens

 6     of Serbian nationality, and Foca submitted a criminal report for genocide

 7     against unknown perpetrators.

 8             No reports of any crimes apparently committed against Muslims or

 9     Croats in this period.  Is that right?

10        A.   I haven't read the whole text, but if it's not mentioned in the

11     text then there are none, no.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honours, may that be admitted, please.

13     It's on our 65 ter list.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P166, Your Honours.

16             MS. KORNER:  All right.

17        Q.   I want to move now, then, please -- well, actually, very quickly

18     to look at one document that you personally dealt with against -- so it's

19     10061, and you'll find it behind divider 23.

20        A.   Very well.

21        Q.   And this is a criminal report dated the 30th of November, 1994,

22     against a large number of Muslims and Croats for apparently crimes

23     committed in Capljina but going back to 1992; is that right?  And it's

24     signed, I think, by you on the last page.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2036

 1        Q.   And perhaps we can just deal with it this way:  Was this your

 2     continuing investigations, and you by then were chief of the CSB in

 3     Bijeljina, into war crimes committed against Serbs?

 4        A.   These are war crimes perpetrated against Serbs in Capljina.

 5     There were a number of camps.  The biggest one was Dretelj near Capljina,

 6     and these persons took part in the arrest of Serbs in that area over a

 7     long period of time.  This is a longer document.  Everything was

 8     documented, and probably the request at the time was to send this to the

 9     Prosecutor's office and there was a deadline provided.  So it was a long

10     process.  People were searched for -- throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina

11     to provide statements, also in Bijeljina, who -- these were witnesses who

12     were in Bijeljina at the time, but they had to be found wherever they

13     were at the time.  So it wasn't a simple task.

14        Q.   Did you ever, that you can recall, because we don't have any

15     documents, conduct investigations in 1994 into war crimes committed

16     against Croats or Muslims?

17        A.   I think that there were some, but I don't remember how many.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, again I'm sorry, it's not on our

19     65 ter list, but it is relevant.  It's signed by this witness and it goes

20     toward the general picture of the witness we had from last week about

21     prosecutions.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have no objection, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P167.

25             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

Page 2037

 1        Q.   Right.  Can we now turn to the last two documents that I'm going

 2     to have to ask you about very quickly, unfortunately.  You will find --

 3     it's 65 ter 2118.  You will find it behind divider 28 in your binder

 4     Mr. Krulj, and it's a document you've been through on a number of

 5     occasions.

 6        A.   Okay.

 7        Q.   It's a handwritten diary.  Is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And it contains notes taken by the author of various meetings,

10     many of which when you went through it, you were able to say both here

11     and the state court, you attended; is that right?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And I think your position is that you are unable to say with any

14     certainty who the author is.

15        A.   I cannot.

16        Q.   But maybe the best way is to look at just one of the meetings.

17     It starts at page 10 of the English, and it's at page -- there are no

18     page numbers on it in B/C/S, but it's 0297-1403.  Page 10 in the B/C/S.

19     Thank you very much.

20        A.   403 are the last digits.

21        Q.   Exactly.  And you'll see there at 1200 hours on the 26th of June,

22     meeting with the centre employees and station chiefs.  And then

23     informed -- I need to go further down, there on the English.  And there

24     we see Ljubinje.

25             I'm not sure what -- what does the "UKT/USW/ link" refer to?

Page 2038

 1        A.   UKT which means that the phones were not operating, it was via

 2     radio station via the transmitter.  And in Nevesinje as well there was no

 3     communications so the information went via the centre for information.

 4     That's what I explained earlier.

 5        Q.   There are further notes of the meeting and then it says "points"

 6     if we go over, please, page 05 in the B/C/S -- 405 -- oh, yes, sorry,

 7     page 12 in the B/C/S and page 12 and 13.  That's points for the meeting.

 8     Page 12.  Right.  And then can we go to the next page in each the B/C/S

 9     and the English.

10             The author of this diary is saying:  "I have briefly presented

11     the role and task of the police department so that you'd find it easier

12     to understand the importance of the daily co-operation," et cetera.

13              "It is necessary to respect the principle of subordination.  I

14     will take the liberty of asking you SJ [sic] chiefs to make the chiefs of

15     stations and other SJ [sic] managers responsible," et cetera.

16             This is the author of the diary speaking.  Who would have been in

17     a position at the CSB Trebinje to be making that sort of statement?

18        A.   What the page number, please?

19        Q.   In the B/C/S it's at page 0297-1406, and in the English it's page

20     13?

21        A.   403 are the last digits.

22        Q.   No, 406.

23        A.   I have read it.

24        Q.   Yes.  I just want to know who -- whoever wrote this diary was

25     clearly in a position to be giving instructions or advice to the chiefs

Page 2039

 1     of the SJBs.  Who would that be?

 2        A.   Well, you keep insisting on Mr. Cuk, but this could have been

 3     Krsto.  It could have been Krsto speaking about how police department

 4     functions, because it is not clear to me.

 5             Look at Cuk's signature a bit earlier.  I know that Cuk never

 6     wrote in Latin script, and he died, and I have absolutely no proof that

 7     it was him, and I state this with full responsibility.

 8        Q.   And when you say, "I absolutely insist," we're asking you who

 9     would have been in a position -- whoever's writing this diary is saying,

10     "I have briefly presented the roles of the police department."  If it

11     wasn't Mr. Savic, and you know his writing -- it wasn't his writing this,

12     was it?

13        A.   If anybody spoke on behalf of the police department, then, yes,

14     Cuk was acting chief, but I cannot say that this is his -- that this is

15     his handwriting.

16        Q.   All right.  And as you say, he's dead.  When did he die?

17        A.   He died in 1995.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I simply don't have time to take him

20     through all the meetings that he attended in this, but can I have this

21     now exhibited as an exhibit.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Exhibited.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit Number --

24             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I object, because the witness -- there is --

Page 2040

 1     the idea is that this was prepared by late Mr. Cuk, and the witness just

 2     confirmed that he wasn't using the Latinic script but the Cyrillic.  So I

 3     have a problem in accepting that this document can be introduced through

 4     this witness.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I can go through every single meeting

 6     that he attended and he can confirm what was said, but I simply don't

 7     have enough time.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I sympathise with that.

 9             MS. KORNER:  If I have to take more time I will take more time.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is that likely to change the witness's opinion

11     about who is the author?

12             MS. KORNER:  No, but it doesn't matter who the author is.  It

13     doesn't actually matter whether it's Mr. Cuk or anybody else who the

14     author is.  The point is, he can confirm, as Mr. Zecevic knows because

15     he's been through the interview and the evidence, that the meetings took

16     place and what was said was said.

17             Your Honours, that's one of the problems about these matters.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, if I understood you well, the reason

20     of your objection is that the witness said that, "This part I briefly

21     presented the role and the task of the police department."  The

22     Prosecutor asked, "Who was speaking here?"  The witness said it was

23     probably not Mr. Cuk.  Cuk, that's the name?  Okay.  So that's why you

24     object to the fact that this should be tendered -- should be exhibited.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the whole document -- the theory of

Page 2041

 1     the Prosecution is that this is a Cuk -- Mr. Cuk's diary, handwritten

 2     diary.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Okay.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  The witness says Mr. Cuk -- it might be Mr. Cuk or

 5     Mr. Krsto Savic or somebody else, but as far as I know, Mr. Cuk never

 6     wrote Latinic script but Cyrillic script and that's why I don't think

 7     it's his diary," and that's the basis of my objection, and I don't think

 8     there is enough nexus between this --

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I misunderstood.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay, I'm sorry.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I say -- I can take -- your own

12     rules say that we can get them in if a witness can speak to the contents.

13     I say it doesn't matter -- ha'pworth who wrote the diary whether it was

14     Cuk or somebody else or Krsto Savic, although clearly it wasn't.  This

15     witness I can take him through the rest of the meetings of which there

16     are numerous ones which he attended.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, this is not about the contents, it's

18     about the authenticity.

19             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, that's the whole point.  One, we

20     can show where we recovered this document from.  Two, this witness can

21     say, yes, these meetings happened, and, yes, I was there and that's what

22     was discussed."

23             There is no -- yes, I'll remind you of -- of Rule 4 of your own

24     guidelines.  There is no rule which prohibits the admission into evidence

25     of documents merely because their alleged source was not called to

Page 2042

 1     testify.  Likewise, the fact that a document has neither a signature nor

 2     a stamp is not in itself a reason to find the document is not authentic."

 3             We haven't got the actual records from a lot of these meetings

 4     except in one case where you can see where the two correlate which is in

 5     the diary and which is in an actual -- where we have the minutes.  It's

 6     one of the few where we managed to recover the minutes.

 7             Your Honours, this document is important.  If I have to do that

 8     then I will have to take more time out of our 200 hours or whatever's

 9     left to take the witness through it.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, you can spend the rest of your time

11     discussing the contents of this.  We sit with the problem that its

12     authenticity has been challenged by the Defence.  For all we know, this

13     diary could have been produced by, say, someone in the OTP.  I mean --

14             MS. KORNER:  I hope Your Honour is not making that a serious

15     suggestion.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, no.  No, no.  Come on, please.  As an example

17     of the problem that we're facing, I don't see any difficulty in admitting

18     it for its contents, but there is a serious problem about its

19     authenticity, because it could be false.  We have no reason to believe it

20     is, but it could, and so this is why the furthest we can go is to MFI it,

21     I think.  And if at a later point you have a witness who can testify to

22     the fact that --

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, there is no other witness --

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- Mr. Cuk did in fact sometimes write in Latin,

25     then that will be one factor weighing against --

Page 2043

 1             MS. KORNER:  No, Your Honour, can I make this absolutely clear.

 2     There is no other witness we are calling or indeed can I say that we've

 3     tried to find who can attest to the contents of this document.

 4             This witness may, as I understand it, have some handwriting of

 5     Mr. Cuk available, but he hasn't, I don't think, brought it with him, so

 6     we can't even do that.

 7             We can prove and can call evidence to show how we acquired this

 8     document, but as to what's in the document, only this witness can testify

 9     to it.  We have no other witness coming, if I can put it that way,

10     linkage witness coming from this area.  And much as we'd like to put

11     Mr. Savic in the box, at the moment we haven't because he's doing his --

12     serving his imprisonment, we haven't been able to approach him.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I would be very brief.  The

14     Prosecution know its case.  If this is the only witness, they should have

15     proposed it as a 92 ter witness with the statement where they show him

16     the document page by page, page by page, and he confirms the document.

17             MS. KORNER:  It's in the interview [overlapping speakers].

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yeah.  If that is the issue with this witness.

19     Now, they haven't, and now we are -- we have a problem.  I don't have a

20     problem with my colleague having additional time.  I understand fully the

21     need for -- for her that she explores this matter further.  I don't have

22     a problem with that.  I'm just saying that we could have saved the time

23     if this was presented to the witness before and if the witness gives

24     [indiscernible].

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the witness has dealt with this in the

Page 2044

 1     interview he had with the OTP and in his evidence to the state court.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something?  May I say

 4     something?  May I address you?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe the witness wants to say something, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Excuse me.  I was confused as to where the voice --

 8     it was the witness who was speaking.

 9             Yes.  We're about to take a break, but you wish to say something,

10     Mr. Krulj.  Please go ahead.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I am with -- I went over this

12     entire package at the state prosecutor's office in Sarajevo with the

13     prosecutor, and for the second time I did it with the OTP investigators,

14     also in Sarajevo.  I said to the prosecutor in the state prosecutor's

15     office that I cannot confirm that this is Cuk's handwriting.  He gave me

16     three sheets.  He made copies of three pages from this diary and gave it

17     to me, and I asked my colleagues who used to work with me in Trebinje

18     centre.  I asked the chief of crime prevention police who used to work

19     with Cuk whether this was Cuk's handwriting.  I was interested in it

20     myself.  And the man said to me that he didn't know.  So I cannot

21     confirm.  We can go over as many pages as you want, but I cannot confirm

22     that this is the diary of the late Mr. Cuk.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you very much, Mr. Krulj.

24             It is pastime for the adjournment.  We are going to rule on this

25     by tomorrow morning -- tomorrow afternoon when we resume.

Page 2045

 1             To the witness, I would point out that your evidence -- your

 2     testimony's not complete, and because of that, you are -- we are about to

 3     take an adjournment and we will resume in this courtroom tomorrow

 4     afternoon at 2.15.  In the -- during the -- until you're released as a

 5     witness, you cannot communicate with counsel from either side, nor can

 6     you discuss your testimony with anybody outside of the courtroom.  You

 7     can talk about anything else except your testimony here.  Do understand?

 8             Yes.  So we --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I understand.

10             JUDGE HALL:  So we resume at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon in this

11     courtroom.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day

14                           of October, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.