Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2410

 1                           Monday, 2 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Before I call for the appearances, I wish to note

 8     for the record that we are sitting today in the absence of Judge Harhoff

 9     under the provisions of Rule 15 bis.

10             May I have the appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Joanna Korner and Crispian Smith for the

12     Prosecution.  Does that mean we can get the documents in without any

13     difficulty?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Cvijetic,

15     Eugene O'Sullivan, and Slobodan Zecevic appearing for Stanisic Defence.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Igor Pantelic for

17     Zupljanin Defence.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  There being no preliminary matters, I'll

19     ask the witness to return to take the stand.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21                           WITNESS:  BRANKO DJERIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, Mr. Djeric.  I remind you

24     that you're still on your oath.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good afternoon to you too.

Page 2411

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:  [Continued]

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Djeric.  We have to continue

 5     where we left off.  I think that at the last session we covered at least

 6     the basic points concerning the Serbian autonomous province.  However,

 7     you and I still have to establish what the constitutional basis was for

 8     its existence.  You agreed that at the time you received your mandate

 9     these provinces were already in existence and operating; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So it's evident that they had a constitutional basis stemming

12     from before the time when Republika Srpska was established; is that

13     correct?

14        A.   I can't be quite certain about that, but I know that they did

15     exist as a constitutional category and they were regulated in a

16     constitution.

17        Q.   That's right.  I have the constitution of the Socialist Republic

18     of Bosnia-Herzegovina here, and in the chapter entitled "Co-operation and

19     association of municipalities," there is provision for a so-called city

20     or regional association of municipalities in order to achieve certain

21     economic and other goals.

22             Do you know about these regional associations at the time of the

23     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Please pause before you

24     answer.  Do you remember that period?

25        A.   I can't answer that with any precision, but I do remember there

Page 2412

 1     were some associations of municipalities.  There were some areas covered

 2     by some chambers of commerce.  So this possibility did exist.

 3        Q.   I don't know whether you had the opportunity, as I did, when

 4     preparing for this trial, to look at the statutes of the Serb autonomous

 5     provinces which called upon this very constitutional basis for their

 6     establishment, and something struck me there in these statutes, it always

 7     says that as regards organisation and territory, they are linked to the

 8     socialist federative Republic of Yugoslavia.

 9             My question to you is the following:  Could this be a result of

10     the desire to preserve the land or fear of its loss?  You spoke about

11     this.

12        A.   I spoke about the existential fear which arose when the country

13     collapsed.  As for your specific question, these constitutional facts

14     were something I wasn't particularly interested in.  I didn't deal with

15     that.

16        Q.   I agree.  I won't go into this any further if you haven't read

17     the constitutions.

18        A.   Well, I didn't actually deal with that.  I didn't go into that.

19     So when I took up my duties, these autonomous provinces already existed

20     in fact.

21        Q.   Very well.  That's sufficient.  Mr. Djeric, the next area I'd

22     like to deal with with you is the emergence of a new political organ of

23     power or of government.  It's sui generis, one of a kind organ such as

24     had not existed before, and I'm referring to the Crisis Staffs.  So you

25     will agree with me that at the time you received your mandate the Crisis

Page 2413

 1     Staffs were already in existence and operating; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I don't know how far I can go with you as regards to the

 4     constitutional categories, but do you agree that these organs were

 5     envisaged in emergency situations when regular government bodies could

 6     not be constituted and could not work and that they were meant to bridge

 7     the gap that might arise in the functioning of government?  Would that be

 8     a definition, in a nutshell, of the reason for their emergence?

 9        A.   As far as I can recall, they were established in order to carry

10     out certain tasks when the municipal organs were unable to meet.  But I'm

11     not a lawyer.  I wasn't interested in that.  I was far from the party.

12     It was the party that dealt with those things and the Ministerial Council

13     and so on.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, but we can't avoid this point completely,

15     because when questioned by the Prosecutor and also in the Krajisnik case,

16     you had to say something about those instructions and the other document

17     withdrawing those instructions, and all of that had to do with the work

18     of the Crisis Staffs.

19        A.   Well, that's precisely how I answered the Prosecutor's question.

20     As an elected official, I felt it my responsibility to draw the attention

21     of those Crisis Staffs which existed, in fact -- to the fact that there

22     were certain obligations, not just rights.

23        Q.   The purpose of my question is something you have now mentioned in

24     the last sentence you said.  You will agree with me that the Crisis

25     Staffs began to go beyond the reasons for their existence and began to

Page 2414

 1     impinge on the competencies of the official state organs of government

 2     and to grab a big piece of the power which was supposed to belong to the

 3     central government authorities.

 4        A.   That's correct.  I don't know whether I need to explain this in

 5     detail.

 6        Q.   Well, we'll go through this.  I'll be putting questions to you,

 7     but you agree with me, do you not, that this would be another factor

 8     limiting the instruments of power of the central organs?  Is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Well, let's see how far they went.  So let's go through some of

12     the decisions issued by the Crisis Staffs, and I'll put a question to you

13     about each one.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So can the witness please be shown

15     1D00-0700.  I do apologise.

16        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I have prepared for you a binder with exhibits.

17     If... yes.  This is it.  We have it in B/C/S and in English on the

18     screen, but to spare you having to look at the monitor, I have prepared a

19     binder for you, and the exhibits are numbered.  So I'll be going through

20     the points here by number.

21             This is document number 1.  Look at the first three items.  I

22     think they've been highlighted here.  I don't know if it's the same in

23     the English version.

24             Here it is in B/C/S, now in English.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could you zoom in on the first

Page 2415

 1     three points, and the fourth as well.  It's all on the same page, so it

 2     isn't difficult.

 3        Q.   As you can see, the ministry -- or, rather, the Crisis Staff is

 4     tasking the chief of the public security station with "ensuring that all

 5     decisions and conclusions of the Crisis Staff relating to the public

 6     security station be carried out within five days."

 7             And then we can see the following points.  I won't read them out,

 8     but chief of the public security station is asked to explain all the

 9     decisions of the Ministry of the Interior relating to the organisation of

10     the centre and staff appointments within the centre.

11             And then in 3, the chief is tasked with compiling a list of

12     assigned heads and to send it to the Crisis Staff for approval.

13             And then in point 3, all the appointments in the public security

14     station are considered temporary and so on.

15             And look at four.  Further tasks given to the chief of the public

16     security station.

17             Have you had a chance to read this?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Mr. Djeric, in your government you had a Ministry of The

20     Interior; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   It had its own organisation and methods of work; is that correct?

23     It also had its own way of appointing heads of units and so on.  It had

24     rules about this, but this, you will agree, is a direct intervention in

25     the way of running the organ.  Would you agree with me?

Page 2416

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So the Crisis Staff is taking over powers within the hierarchy of

 3     the Ministry of Interior.  Do you observe that?

 4             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I'm sorry, but I don't think he

 5     can really answer this question either.  It's a question -- anybody who

 6     can read the document can read what it says.  Unless he's got inside

 7     information or knowledge of the operation of the Doboj Crisis Staff, I

 8     don't see how he can deal with this.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, as you say, the document speaks for

10     itself, and I can only assume by the way that Mr. Cvijetic is proceeding

11     that the self-evident answer that he has obtained from the witness is

12     preliminary to something else that's relevant and admissible.

13             MS. KORNER:  I think that may be a bit optimistic.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

15        Q.   Mr. Djeric, can you please look at document number two.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]  And for everyone in the courtroom

17     it's 65 ter 143.

18             Can we please zoom in on item 2, please, nothing else.

19        Q.   Mr. Djeric, you've read item 2, and what we can see here is that

20     the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region is setting up a police station.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document,

22     so to say, paginated to the end until the signature?  So can we look at

23     the bottom of the page.  Can we look at page 2.  Yes.  Thank you.  And in

24     the English version as well.  Can we have page 2 in English?  Ah, here it

25     is.

Page 2417

 1        Q.   Mr. Djeric, there is something that I would like to draw your

 2     attention to here.  In this document and in the previous document, it

 3     doesn't say anywhere that such a decision of -- by the Crisis Staff will

 4     be conveyed to the government, to the Krajina authorities or anybody like

 5     that.  Do you think that this confirms what you said earlier, that at one

 6     point you were cut off by these local regional authority that you

 7     referred to earlier?

 8        A.   I did say several times how much the government was cut off from

 9     certain areas, the most pronounced instance of which was this one here in

10     Doboj, the Krajina region, the Herzegovina region, and so on and so

11     forth.  Well, this is a fact, but I was not able to know about these

12     documents.  I'm seeing them for the first time.

13             The only thing that I can be -- the only way that I can be useful

14     here is to, let's say, express what we all knew, and that is that the

15     governments in certain areas, these Crisis Staffs, were simply not

16     heeding the central authorities all that much.  They were themselves in

17     power, so there was a kind of diffuse power at one point in time.

18             I didn't know all of these particulars.  All I'm saying is that

19     there was the fact of the usurpation of power.  The power was usurped, if

20     I can put it that way.

21        Q.   Mr. Djeric, the reason why I'm taking you through all of these

22     documents is among other things what you have just said.  I'm also trying

23     in these decisions to find the reasons for the adoption of that document

24     that, like you told the Prosecutor, you signed the instructions on how

25     the Crisis Staff can behave.  So what I would like to do is show to you

Page 2418

 1     the range of decisions which in some way must have had to lead to that

 2     document, because their conduct needed to be regulated.

 3             So can we now look at the next document, that is document

 4     1D00-0702.  I think this is document three in your set.

 5             So we're interested in the first four paragraphs here, the

 6     numbered paragraphs.  You probably had a look at this already.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And for the Chamber, I just want

 8     to say we're going to cover this fast.  We're for the going to stay on

 9     this for that long.

10        Q.   But you can see here what could be of interest later.  The Crisis

11     Staff is asking the municipality of Prijedor Public Security Station and

12     the Prijedor Regional Command to form Intervention Squad numbering 20

13     men.  And then in paragraphs 2 and 3 there are additional instructions

14     issued about how that should look.  And then please look at item 3 where

15     it says:

16              "The Municipal Crisis Staff is to give approval for the selected

17     squad members."

18             So a special unit is being formed, but that would be under the

19     jurisdiction of the Crisis Staff.  So it seems that as we can see at the

20     bottom in the signature, it is not being sent to the MUP.  It's not going

21     to the government, but the whole thing remains at the local level.

22             Do you agree with me?  That is also confirms the direct

23     interference into the process of rule by a government.  I mean, it -- it

24     just infringes on the process of work of the government.  Do you agree

25     with that?

Page 2419

 1        A.   Yes --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Just a second.  Certainly that invites a conclusion

 3     which is for the Chamber at the end of the day.  The witness shouldn't be

 4     asked that question.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Okay.  All right.  We won't.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djeric, we will move to the next document then.  We will try

 7     to find orders that deal with the financing.  We're going to go in order.

 8     Can we look at 65 ter 441, please.  The first two items we will shorten.

 9     We had a direct order.  It's a command -- and order to commence and

10     members of the military and regular police that, so to say, should be

11     doing the job that they're supposed to be doing according to the law

12     anyway?

13             And since the law -- the Trial Chamber says that a conclusion can

14     be drawn from this, all that remains is to be informed about this order

15     when we come to the question and your instructions in that sense.  So

16     what we will do is move to the next exhibit, 65 ter 713.

17             Yes.  All right.  Can you please look at item 2, paragraph 2.

18     Actually, the first paragraph.  Did you open the document that is five,

19     document five in your set of documents?  All right.  There it is.

20             Can you look at item 2, and you can look at the first

21     subparagraph where it says:

22             "Momcilo and Cedo are to settle together with Goran the matter of

23     the public prosecutor."

24             So the government did have a section for appointing the

25     prosecutors, that is the Ministry of Justice?

Page 2420

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   But what we see here is that this is the interference by the

 3     Crisis Staff into the work of the Ministry of Justice pertaining to the

 4     appointment of the public prosecutor.

 5             All right, very well.  I'm going to move to the next document,

 6     65 ter 690.  That is number 6 in your set of documents.

 7             MS. KORNER:  That last document is already an exhibit, P85.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  P85.  I didn't have

 9     time to -- all right, well, we are now at 65 ter 690.

10             Can we please open the first page.  Actually, can we look at the

11     next page.  This is only the cover page of that decision.  The order is

12     inside.

13        Q.   Mr. Djeric, did you find it and the wording of the order?

14        A.   I don't know what this is about.

15        Q.   It's the curfew in position, a ban on movement in the Kotor Varos

16     Municipality.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So it's a limitation or restriction of certain freedom, and the

19     decision on that was taken by the Crisis Staff, and even when we look at

20     the constitution and who can impose such restrictions, it's a question

21     whether such an organ could do something like that, but it has taken it

22     upon itself to do that.

23             And now we're going to go through -- to the next document, that's

24     1D00-4513.  And that is the seventh document in your set of documents.

25             If we can look at paragraph 2 very quickly.  We're not going to

Page 2421

 1     spend much time on this document.

 2             Item 2, have you read it?  You have a direct order here for the

 3     president of the basic court and what he is to do.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So we're just going to note this as a fact, and then, finally,

 6     we're going to talk about it a little bit via your instructions.

 7             Anyway, can we look at an order, 65 ter 611.

 8             Has the order been found?  Yes, I think.

 9             Let's look inside.  This is just the cover page.  Professor, you

10     have it too.  Can you open the next document so we can go inside into the

11     order.  I think there is the affirmation by the interpreter, and if you

12     can skip that, that's that.

13             Can you go inside, because we're on the cover page.  Can you look

14     at the order and see what the Crisis Staff is dealing with.

15             "The displaced population withdrew from the Mahala, Muhici..."

16     and so on and so forth?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   "... is to be transferred and the military police shall provide

19     security for the column."  All right.

20             But I think that the next document would be more important to us,

21     so if we can just look at 65 ter 609, please.  609.  Professor, that is

22     document number 10 in your set of documents.  We're interested in

23     paragraph 1.  Paragraph 1.  And you can see here that the Crisis Staff of

24     the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most, on the basis of a proclamation

25     by the presidents of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

Page 2422

 1     Herzegovina Dr. Radovan Karadzic which will implement the decision on

 2     general mobilisation of forces and equipment in the republic."  Have you

 3     read that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So as part of the government there is a special ministry in the

 6     government that is charged with these affairs.

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   So this would then infringe on the powers of a very important

 9     ministry of yours.  Isn't that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Very well.  Can we please look at 65 ter 606 now, please.

12     Professor, that is document number 12 in your set of documents, and we're

13     going to look at item 2.  And if I can say so, here we can see the most

14     direct interference in the affairs of the Ministry of the Internal

15     Affairs, because the Crisis Staff is appointing and issuing a certificate

16     or approval for Mirko Vrucinic to start work as the acting chief of the

17     public security station.  So we're going to treat this as a fact, and

18     we're going to have the comments at the end.

19             Mr. Djeric, the way that organs of the government and the

20     ministries and so on were financed, how did that function at the

21     beginning?  Can you please tell us?  It has nothing to do with the

22     document.  I'm just putting the question to you.

23        A.   Well, in the beginning, each region was financed and so on and so

24     forth, and then there was an effort to create a single system, and this

25     was proceeding with difficulty because the Crisis Staffs had taken over a

Page 2423

 1     part of those functions upon themselves.

 2        Q.   Yes.  That is precisely why I wanted to show you a document,

 3     1D00-0769, on this particular topic.  0769.  Professor, I apologise.  In

 4     your binder that is document 16.

 5             We're looking at paragraph -- or item 1 in that document.  That

 6     is what we are interested in.  We still haven't seen it.  There it is.

 7     Scroll down.  Yes.  It begins with the problems of financing, that

 8     paragraph.

 9             All right.  Mr. Djeric, have you looked at this paragraph where

10     it says:

11             "The problems of financing the army and the police, it was agreed

12     that the municipal presidents --" actually, that the financing is carried

13     out exactly how you said in the region, that contributions were being

14     collected.

15             So my question on this particular topic is:  This fact that the

16     police down in the field was financed by local organs, could that fact be

17     the reason why they directly interfered in their work, because as a rule

18     the party that finances them perhaps feels that they have the right to

19     set certain conditions.  Is that correct?

20             MS. KORNER:  Just a moment.  Just before -- how can he answer

21     that question?  He has no knowledge.  He's been saying all throughout

22     this that he's never seen the documents you've been showing him before.

23     How can he possibly draw any conclusions given his state of knowledge as

24     to whether the fact that the police were being financed by local organs

25     means that's why they directly interfered, if indeed they directly

Page 2424

 1     interfered?

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the point is that at

 3     sessions of the government, precisely because of this sort of behaviour

 4     by the Crisis Staffs - and I found this in the minutes - initiatives were

 5     started to abolish the Crisis Staffs.

 6             The next document I will deal with is instructions for the work

 7     of these Crisis Staffs, signed by Mr. Djeric, and we will discuss this a

 8     little bit, which attempts to introduce some order into the behaviour of

 9     the Crisis Staffs.  So all these preliminary questions are leading up to

10     the reasons for the issuing of these instructions.  And who issued the

11     instructions and why is something I want to dwell on a little bit longer

12     with the professor.  That's why I've taken the path I have leading up to

13     these instructions for the work of the Crisis Staffs.

14             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, that's fine.  I mean, of course

15     he can do that, but what he can't do is ask this witness to guess, which

16     is what he was doing in the last question.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, well, then I'll ask

18     him why these instructions were issued.  Were they issued because that's

19     how the Crisis Staffs were behaving in this way?

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's deal with the instructions then.  So we saw

21     all your documents --

22             MR. CVIJETIC:  Okay.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- and now we'll deal with your instructions.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Djeric -- I just have to check the number in the binder.  I

Page 2425

 1     think it's number 17.  So these are excerpts from the instructions; is

 2     that right?

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 97, for the Chamber.  I

 4     just want to clarify two points concerning these instructions, so please

 5     bear with me for a while.  65 ter 97.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I can't but clarify this issue with you, because in

 7     my view it has remained unclarified when we link your testimony in this

 8     case with your testimony in the Krajisnik case.  In that case you were

 9     shown this version of the instructions.

10             Could we look up at the heading so we can see that it's the

11     government that issued this.  And then let's look at the last part, the

12     last page, page 2 in both versions, Serbian and English.  And the English

13     version, too, where the signature is.

14             You were shown this document.  Evidently there is no signature

15     and no stamp on it; is that right?

16             MS. KORNER:  No, he wasn't shown this one.  He was shown one of

17     the other ones where there is a signature and stamp.  Just so that Your

18     Honours understand, there are no less than three different versions that

19     we've got, the unsigned untyped one, one with his signature, and then it

20     was re-issued.  I think we looked at the one with the later date.  So

21     there are two signed and sealed as it were, and one blank.  By mistake

22     when we put the 65 ter list together we picked the actual unsigned one,

23     but the others are a part of the package.

24             JUDGE HALL:  But it's the same document with which we're dealing?

25             MS. KORNER:  It is exactly the same document.

Page 2426

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'll come to the signed one as

 2     well.  I just need time to arrive at it.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djeric, could you read point 13 on page 2.  "War profiteers,

 4     gangs of looters, and similar ..."

 5             When the Prosecutor showed you this document, you stated very

 6     decidedly that the government could not have issued this document for two

 7     reasons.  You said, first of all, because of the date, the 26th of April,

 8     1992.  You said that the government was not complete at that time and was

 9     unable to issue such a document.  Am I right in stating this?

10             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, page number for that?

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The second page of this document

12     where the signatures are.

13             MS. KORNER:  No, the page number where you say he said this in

14     evidence.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Djeric, saying this?

17        A.   I said that -- well, to the best of my recollection, I'm not

18     going into these different versions of the document and so on, but the

19     only thing I can assert is that sometime in April, early -- but -- early

20     in April, but I can't remember exactly when, I sent the Crisis Staffs

21     something like this, intending to draw attention to their behaviour, to

22     warn them that they should take care.  So I'm telling you now what my

23     intention was.  My intention was, in relation to these Crisis Staffs, the

24     armed people, the people holding power, to let them know that they

25     shouldn't behave in any way they wanted to.

Page 2427

 1        Q.   Did you say --

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, no, before he goes on.  It's no good

 3     making assertions such as the Prosecutor showed you this document.  You

 4     said the government couldn't have issued it."  I found the page number

 5     which I was asking you to give me, Mr. Cvijetic.  Page 72, it's the

 6     unpaginated -- fully paginated one.  "I showed him the document and he

 7     said I think it was standard practice to send them out.  "Did you

 8     personally draft these instructions?"  "No.  Someone from the Ministry of

 9     Defence."  He never at any time asserted he didn't send these -- this

10     document out.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I have a sound

12     recording of the testimony from the Krajisnik case.

13        Q.   Did you say that this point 13 is not in your style of writing,

14     "War profiteers, gangs of looters," and so on?

15        A.   Well, this might be contentious, but the intention was what I

16     said, and I can confirm this.  We wanted to address the Crisis Staffs

17     concerning all these issues and let them know that they couldn't command,

18     that they couldn't appoint officers and so on and so forth.  That was

19     what it was like at that time, because they became arrogant.  They didn't

20     trust the officers there.  They wanted to replace them and so on.  So

21     that's what the idea was, the intention.  As for all these different

22     versions of documents, I can't confirm that.  I can only tell you what

23     the purpose of these documents was, but to which of these is the actual

24     document, the real one, I can't tell you.

25        Q.   Professor, I'm not trying to confuse you with these documents.

Page 2428

 1     Let me tell you this:  I'm just trying to check the authenticity of the

 2     documents.  After that I want to comment on their contents.  Let me jog

 3     your memory and ask you the following:  Did you say that you remember

 4     drawing up a document like this together with president Karadzic and

 5     sending it out into the field?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, correct, a document which was -- if there is a document

 7     which was signed by the president on one side and myself on the other

 8     that might be the document.

 9        Q.   Very well.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

11     document 65 ter 2341.  2341, 65 ter.

12             Could we scroll down to where the signatures are, please.  On the

13     next page.

14        Q.   Professor, this is number 17 in your binder.  So just turn the

15     page.  Yes.

16             So we have here both the stamp and the signature, and you've said

17     that this might be your signature when asked by the Prosecutor; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Is it the same as the previous document as regards to the

21     content?  Please read the two documents and compare them, and tell us if

22     the content is the same or not.  One of them is in slightly larger

23     letters.

24        A.   Well, they seem to be the same document.

25        Q.   Can you confirm that they're identical?

Page 2429

 1        A.   Well, they appear to be identical, yes.  I can't now take the

 2     time to compare every word, but they seem to be identical.

 3        Q.   Very well.  What I'm interested in now, Professor, is the

 4     following:  When we read the content of this excerpt from the

 5     instructions, my impression is that the author evidently had the

 6     intention of regulating and disciplining the behaviour of the Crisis

 7     Staffs.  Am I right?

 8        A.   Yes.  That is the entire purpose, to somehow let the Crisis

 9     Staffs know that they couldn't behave irresponsibly.

10        Q.   Yes, to put it briefly.  However, the next document, 65 ter

11     105 --

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have it on the screen,

13     please.

14        Q.   It's 18 in your binder, Professor.

15             Only four days later -- have you found the document?  This is a

16     letter withdrawing these instructions.

17             How would you explain the fact that the instructions were

18     withdrawn after four days?

19        A.   This is not clear to me.  I answered the question by the

20     Prosecutor here.  This was not my practice to withdraw an instruction

21     that was sent out, especially not in such a brief period of time.  I

22     simply don't understand this.  It's not clear to me.  I can't remember.

23     This was towards the end of April.  The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

24     had already been established then.  The Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina

25     issued its decision on the withdrawal of the army, but I simply don't

Page 2430

 1     know.  As I said, this was not my usual way of working.  It wasn't my

 2     practice.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, as these documents all hang

 4     together and the professor here is their author, I tender them into

 5     evidence.  First is 65 ter 97.  The second is 65 -- well, 65 ter 97,

 6     that's the first excerpt I showed.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Are there any of these which are not already

 8     exhibited?

 9             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I -- which documents?  Are you just trying to

10     tender the ones, the excerpt ones?

11             No, Your Honours, what's happened is -- I don't think anybody is

12     tendering exhibits at the moment because you haven't admitted any of ours

13     until you've heard cross-examination.  It's all sitting in this wonderful

14     amorphous way somewhere above this court.  So I'm not trying to -- I

15     don't know how this is going to work now.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Just give me a moment, please.

17             MR. CVIJETIC:  Okay, okay, okay.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             MS. KORNER:  Can I assist though?  97 was exhibited.  It's

20     actually P70.  It must have come in some other way.  And the other

21     document that Mr. Cvijetic has referred to may be part of the package

22     that went in with the 92 ter.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, and the registry agrees with that.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So that's where we are with that.  Marked for

Page 2431

 1     identification --

 2             MS. KORNER:  Exactly.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  -- and we'll see where we go with the facts.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do we have the 65 ter number of that second

 5     document?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes, it was a hundred --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  107?

 8             MS. KORNER:  No, it's 105, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  105, thank you.

10             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  In fact, the 65 ter package did go in as an

11     exhibit.  65 ter.  92 ter.  Is that right?  Exactly, so that is already

12     an exhibit and part of the transcript, and the other one went in --

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, 105's on the list.

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have noted that the 65 ter 97,

17     that it's now P70.  Is that correct?  And the next document is the signed

18     version of the same excerpt, 65 ter 2341, and I haven't noted that it's

19     been -- that it's been tendered into evidence as a Prosecution exhibit.

20     Has it been admitted into evidence?

21             MS. KORNER:  No.  But the point is nobody, as I understand it, is

22     getting anything admitted with this witness until everything has been

23     dealt with.  Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             MS. KORNER:  P2341 was admitted.

Page 2432

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  With another witness?

 2             MS. KORNER:  No, as part of the package.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And the third one is the 65 ter

 5     document 105.

 6             MS. KORNER:  This is one --

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Very well.

10        Q.   Mr. Djeric, you have thus no explanation why within four days you

11     would withdraw such an instruction.  So let us try maybe to solve the

12     mystery.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness

14     65 ter 145, please.

15        Q.   Mr. Djeric, that is number 19 in your binder.  I'm sorry for not

16     letting you know that in time, but we'll take it slowly.

17             As you can see, this is a decision by the Presidency on the

18     formation of War Presidencies in municipalities in times of the immediate

19     threat of war or time of war.  You know about that, don't you?

20        A.   I don't know that.  I don't remember that, because this was done

21     by Karadzic.  I mean, this is his segment.

22        Q.   All right.  Can you please look at item 2.  Perhaps you will

23     refresh your memory, where it says that:

24             "The War Presidency shall consist of a representative of the

25     republic and, generally, a commissioner --"

Page 2433

 1             Did anybody ask you about any of these matters in the previous

 2     case?

 3        A.   The Presidency as the coordinating body did this, and it

 4     constantly did have representatives from the municipality.

 5        Q.   All right.  Can we now please look at Article 5.  And in the

 6     B/C/S, Professor, you've already found this.  Article 5.  It's on the

 7     left side of the page.  That's right.  Article 5.  I thing you've found

 8     it.  I think in the English also we need to see Article 5.

 9             In paragraph 2 it says -- have you found it?

10              "The day the War Presidencies are established, the Crisis Staffs

11     shall cease to operate in municipalities across the Serbian Republic of

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina."

13             Professor, I'm going to come out with a thesis and let us see if

14     you agree with that.  Were the Crisis Staffs at all under the

15     jurisdiction of the government or anyone?

16        A.   The Crisis Staffs have nothing to do with the government.  They

17     were formed by the party and then they continued to work on their tasks.

18     These representatives also, they were not an organ of the government in

19     any shape or form.

20        Q.   All right.  My next question, that instruction of yours, then,

21     can it be considered as, let's say, an attempt by you or the government

22     to regulate an area that had escaped control and that it turned out that

23     it was actually not part of your duties and that you had to give that to

24     the Presidency, so you didn't pursue that to the end?  This is my

25     assumption.

Page 2434

 1        A.   Well, yes.  This is all under the jurisdiction of the services in

 2     the government.  This is a kind of legal affairs subject matter.  So it

 3     regulates the subject matter the way it regulates the subject matter, and

 4     then the government issues instructions in a certain way, and then they

 5     can be placed in a different context.

 6             I told you, and this is what I remember, that I sent simply to

 7     the Crisis Staffs, and I think that even Karadzic signed that, so this

 8     was very early in April -- early in April, because it -- the times were

 9     like that, you know.  It was simply that there was a major diffusion of

10     power.  The situation was very raw and so on and so forth.  So much of

11     the subject matter was unregulated.  So everything is possible.  And in

12     the context of what you answered, I am saying that the practice, unless

13     there was force majeure or this legal aspect of it, it wasn't the

14     practice to recall anything.  This wasn't done.

15        Q.   So you are allowing for this possibility?

16        A.   Yes, I am allowing for the possibility that a Presidency, because

17     that was authorised for these matters, that things proceeded in this

18     particular way and then that that reflected in turn on the things that

19     happened.  I allow that as a possibility.  I allow that possibility, but

20     I really couldn't swear an oath here and say, yes, I definitely remember

21     this or that.  I don't.

22        Q.   Well, I did state that as a possibility.

23        A.   Yes, but for reasons of force majeure perhaps, yes, it's possible

24     that this was done.

25        Q.   I'm trying to confirm this possibility with you in a different

Page 2435

 1     way, not only through this document by the Presidency but also

 2     differently.

 3             You will agree that in themselves the Crisis Staffs could not fit

 4     into the system of authority at the top of which was the government under

 5     any of the organs that you were at the head of?

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   And I see in the second reason that you withdrew that instruction

 8     and allowed the Presidency to deal with that.  Is that assumption of mine

 9     correct?

10        A.   Well, what can happen is that the government was formed and that

11     the ministries were doing their job, and then this dealing with the

12     Crisis Staff was left to the Presidency, and it was maintaining contact

13     with them.

14        Q.   When you mention this word "to deal with them," do you have the

15     information how long the Crisis Staffs functioned in certain areas of

16     Republika Srpska?  Do you have information about that?

17        A.   Well, from what I can remember at this point that there were

18     plenty of differences.  It varied from staff to staff and from SAO to SAO

19     areas.

20             The regions in the east accepted the government fairly quickly,

21     and so on and so forth.  There were some problems with Herzegovina, but

22     the most resilient was the Krajina Autonomous Region, and their work.

23     They managed to persevere all the way until the autumn, and they were the

24     most persisted in that.  Even I myself asked myself several times who did

25     this suit?  I mean, it must have suited somebody for the situation to be

Page 2436

 1     maintained in that way.  They persevered until the autumn and were quite

 2     strong.  And since this was the largest region, territorially and by

 3     population, perhaps it comprises some 70 to 80 per cent of the Republic

 4     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they simply believed there that the Crisis Staffs

 5     and that region considered itself enough unto itself and it behaved the

 6     way it behaved.

 7        Q.   All right.  Very well.  Mr. Djeric, did you have information that

 8     some Crisis Staffs had called themselves War Staffs and even the

 9     presidents called themselves the commanders of the staffs?  Just please

10     wait for this to be entered into the transcript.

11             All right.  You can go ahead now.  Did you have that?

12        A.   I cannot remember at this point in time what they called

13     themselves, but they did have the power.  They did declare themselves

14     this president or that president, war president, commanders, and that

15     they were carrying out command duties and deciding on personnel policies

16     and some cadre matters.  Well, yes, we knew about that.

17        Q.   So then we can conclude that Crisis Staffs, after the Serbian

18     autonomous regions or parallel with them, were the second most important

19     factor that limited or restricted the instruments of central authority in

20     the form of the government; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, the form of the government and all the other organs.

22        Q.   Yes, all right, but we primarily are thinking of the government.

23             I think that we have dealt sufficiently with the Crisis Staffs.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know if it's

25     time for a break.  I'm preparing to move to a different topic, so perhaps

Page 2437

 1     this would be a good moment.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  [Overlapping speakers].  You have another ten

 3     minutes.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right, very well.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I would like to now move to, and let me say move

 6     closer to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, if I can put it that way.

 7             In order for the ministries in the government to have some sort

 8     of indication of what they were supposed to do, what they were supposed

 9     to be dealing with, and what was under their jurisdiction, it was

10     important to have not only the laws but also some government guidelines

11     so that they would be issued with some direction and instruction for

12     1992.

13             Do you recall a document called "The Operative Programme of

14     Measures to Prevent the Disruption of Social Flows in the -- in Wartime

15     Conditions"?  This is the title of the document.  Do you recall that?

16        A.   No, I don't.

17        Q.   Can you please look at document 20 in your set of documents then.

18     And that is 1D00-0552.

19             Mr. Djeric --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- on first on the first page, and the Chamber can see it as

22     well, this is a document -- actually, this is a cover letter

23     accompanied -- accompanying that programme so that the ministry could

24     state its remarks or comments on that document.

25             Can you recall that document perhaps?

Page 2438

 1        A.   Yes, it's possible, because certain documents are being referred

 2     to here that should be adopted, certain legal gaps need to be bridged.

 3     More or less it's all in the spirit of the work of the government before

 4     the conflict broke out.  The actual title, "Operational Programme of

 5     Measures to Prevent the Disruption of Social Flows in the Condition of,"

 6     you know, so on and so forth.  "Disruption of Social Interactions in

 7     Times of War." That's what it says.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we now please

10     enter this document if the interpretation is finished.

11        Q.   And can we look at the B/C/S page, Professor, 2, page 2.  Now, I

12     must parallelly open that document.  That is document number 20.

13             This is page number 4 in the English version, item 4.  It's a

14     very important document, so we will not go fast.  And we have the English

15     version -- great, you've found it.  And the B/C/S version you've also

16     found.  I'm going to give you some time to read the document.

17             So one of the tasks was to adopt a law on state administration,

18     and you can see the text where it says that the question of

19     responsibility would need to be focused on, all of your organs,

20     ministries, were actually administration organs; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And the regulations on the matters of -- regulations applied to

23     them that regulated the work of the administration organs; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2439

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at item 8 now, please,

 2     in the BH version.  It's on page 2 and -- 3.  It's on page 3.  And then

 3     in the English version it's on page 5.  Page 5 in the English, paragraph

 4     8.  Can we scroll up, please.  And then it goes on to the next page, so

 5     then we will have to ...

 6             In English it is on two pages, and the title is "Development of

 7     Wartime Organisation and Specification of Jobs."  And then we can move to

 8     the next page in the English version to see what this is about.  Yes,

 9     that's it.

10        Q.   Professor, did you read item a little bit?  So this is an

11     instruction to all the ministries and the republican organs to draft

12     their own wartime organisation and job specification, which implies a

13     transition to wartime operations, implying that the minimum number of

14     employees would need to be established and so on.

15             So my question is:  Professor, what regulations are the source

16     for this particular instruction?

17        A.   I cannot remember.  I don't remember even -- I think that simply

18     there was a problem constantly in the government, a kind of discrepancy

19     between the normative basis and the situation in the field.  Thus we

20     simply had peacetime laws and regulations, and on the other hand, we had

21     a fierce conflict which was obvious.  So what this boiled down to was --

22     well, Sarajevo, Mr. Izetbegovic.  Mr. Izetbegovic declared a state of

23     war, whereas in the republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina there was

24     no state of war, and the whole basis of the regulations was peacetime

25     regulations.  So -- I mean, you can say that we were thinking of

Page 2440

 1     appointing a Presidency that was in his domain.

 2        Q.   You said to be -- to provide this for the -- to the president.

 3        A.   The government could not declare a state of war.  From time to

 4     time there were meetings where such an issue was discussed.  It was

 5     tabled, and it was brought to the attention of the political leadership,

 6     but it was resolutely against declaring a state of war.

 7        Q.   Professor, I'm going to be specific.  This obligation not only of

 8     the government organs but all the state organs stemmed from the law All

 9     Peoples Defence, which provided for the adoption of these regulations,

10     the so-called wartime plans, job specifications, and so on.  Am I right

11     in that?

12        A.   Well, there's something else.  This is in the event of war the

13     ministry had the duty, the Ministry For Defence, to provide these

14     documents and so on and so forth.  And to move or transfer the entire

15     economic system to a wartime economic system.

16        Q.    I'm asking you about the duty of all of those wartime subjects

17     to have wartime plans.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you agree?

20        A.   Well, this is something else again.

21        Q.   The question is specific, Professor.  Did all the organs have to

22     have these specific plans?

23        A.   Yes, they did.  This was their duty under the constitution.  In

24     the event of war, they had the wartime --

25        Q.   Plans.

Page 2441

 1        A.   -- plans.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, it's that time now.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC:  Okay.  Okay.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Twenty minutes.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I continue?

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We're now dealing with

12     the same document.  I just need the sixth page in the B/C/S version, and

13     in the English version it's page 18.  Point 18.  Page 6 in B/C/S, point

14     18.  Yes, that's it.  And in the English version, on page 10, point 18.

15     That's it, yes.

16        Q.   Mr. Djeric, have you found it?  Page 6.

17        A.   Point 18.

18        Q.   Yes, that's right.  In this operative programme, there is a

19     certain task for the Ministry of the Interior which is to issue

20     regulations on the internal organisation of the ministries in wartime

21     conditions.  Is that right?  And here it says what such a document should

22     contain; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So we will just take note of the fact that this is an obligation

25     undertaken, and we'll comment on it later on.

Page 2442

 1             You will agree that this obligation follows from the same

 2     regulations we've already referred to.  Is that right?

 3             Could we now move on to page 7 in B/C/S.  That's point 21.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's page 11 in English.  The next

 5     page.

 6        Q.   And here we see a brief order intended for the Ministry of the

 7     Interior on excluding from traffic all motor vehicles without proper

 8     documentation.  And when we come to this, we will refer to this

 9     obligation of the ministry.  Let's just see what was the ministry's task.

10             Let's move to page 8 in B/C/S and page 12 in the English version.

11     And we'll dwell on this a while.

12             Professor, you're on page 8, are you not?  On the left-hand side.

13     Yes, that is where it begins.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]  In English we're on page 12 and

15     page 13.

16        Q.   Professor, we have a complex task here, an order to both the

17     Ministry of the interior and the Ministry of Justice and also the

18     Ministry of Defence.  So I would like to focus now on items 2 and 3.

19             In item 2 it says that in co-operation with the judicial state

20     organs, the military judicial organs and the organs of the ministry

21     police, activities should be stepped up on discovering and bringing in

22     perpetrators of misdemeanors and crimes, especially with a view to

23     suppressing thefts, war profiteering, and other criminal actions.

24             So this is a common task for all.  And then we have item 3, which

25     is perhaps even more interesting here.

Page 2443

 1              "Within the scope of their activities, the ministry and its

 2     services should establish organised access to work on gathering and

 3     processing data and documentary evidence, materials on genocide and war

 4     crimes against the civilian population."

 5             So I'll dwell on this a while longer.  I will try to remind you

 6     of your testimony on Friday.  You said that at the government you

 7     discussed the issue of war crimes and genocide and that you did not

 8     discuss only crimes against Serbs.  You did not discuss these things

 9     collectively.  It doesn't say which population.  Am I right?

10        A.   Yes.  That's what I said, and I can confirm it again.  There was

11     discussion of this at the government, and orders were issued to the

12     appropriate ministries more than once, especially the Ministry of the

13     Interior and the Ministry of Justice, that they should take measures and

14     prosecute all those who violated the law and international laws and

15     regulations, humanity, and so on.  That's certain.

16        Q.   Let me interrupt you for a second.

17        A.   And this is stressed in this document as well.

18        Q.   Let me just highlight "Documentary Materials on Crimes That Have

19     Been Perpetrated."  So there is a duty to keep records of these crimes;

20     is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Professor, now that we're dealing with this, let me ask you this:

23     Can you recall who gave the initiative that work should be done on

24     collecting this documentary material?

25        A.   I can't recall specifically, but I know that these conclusions

Page 2444

 1     were reached at the government session and that the government then tasks

 2     the ministries with this.

 3        Q.   Very well.  We'll come back to this.  And in this context I'd

 4     like to move on to item 27.  Professor, that's on page 9 in the B/C/S

 5     version.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Point 27 in English, it's on page

 7     15.

 8        Q.   That's point 27.  I think we've found it.

 9             Professor, as you've seen, a state commission is to be appointed

10     to establish crimes and genocide against the civilian population and

11     victims of war, and this is a task given to the Ministry of Justice; is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   We have to bring this into the context of the previous conclusion

15     by the government, and you will agree that there is no selective approach

16     here either.

17        A.   Yes.  Crimes are universal, and a state commission was to be

18     appointed to deal with this.

19        Q.   I hope that this has jogged your memory a little bit.  Am I

20     right?

21        A.   Well, after all these years it's good to have your memory jogged.

22        Q.   Let me remind you about something else that has to do with this

23     operative programme so you can be sure what we're talking about.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have document 65 ter 929.

25        Q.   This -- these should be minutes of the 41st session of the

Page 2445

 1     government, and then we'll look at the agenda, and after that point 1.

 2     The agenda is on page 1.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And in English I think it can only

 4     be on page 1 or 2.

 5        Q.   Point 1.  Professor, you have to look at the screen.  You don't

 6     have this in your binder.

 7              At the government session of the 29th of July, 1992, this

 8     proposal of the operative plan or programme, as we've called it, was on

 9     the agenda.  You can see that, can't you?  And if you look further, after

10     discussion of the agenda on pages 2 and 3, and mostly on page 4 - I don't

11     know if you can follow - there is a small discussion in which suggestions

12     are made.  So let's go one page forward.  The B/C/S version, page 4.  No?

13     Yes.  Here we are.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's just find the right place in

15     English.

16        Q.   And it says here:

17             "The following observations and comments were made on the

18     proposed text."

19             I think we're on the right page.  Excellent.

20             And here, Professor, we can see that members of the government

21     are making their suggestions and their comments on this proposed text.

22     And as you can see here, it was concluded that possible suggestions

23     should wait until the final text so that the instructions can be further

24     elaborated.  Can you see that?

25             You have a passage here.  I'll read it out.  It says:

Page 2446

 1             "The government has again pointed out the need to establish

 2     co-operation between the departments and ministries in the process of

 3     preparation and proposals of the appropriate regulations."

 4             So we won't deal with this session anymore, but we'll conclude

 5     that the government monitored the implementation of this programme at its

 6     sessions.  Do you agree?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Amongst other things, one of the orders by the MUP was, as we

 9     saw, to work on the uncovering of crimes and the legal processing of

10     perpetrators and so on and so forth.  I particularly emphasise organised

11     crime, looting, robbery, and so on.

12             Do you remember that?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.  This was quite prominent for the reason that the

14     crime which was rampant was undermining the authority, the government,

15     especially if ministers or parts of the state administration were

16     actually taking part in such activities.  That is why we were paying

17     particular attention to that.

18        Q.   In light of that, I'm going to dwell now on some tasks that were

19     part of the job of the ministry.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at document 1D00-0496,

21     please.

22        Q.   Professor, that is document 21.  The government, or you as the

23     prime minister, signed the order that was sent to Cedomir Kljajic at the

24     Ministry of the Interior, and he was to have submitted a report on the

25     security of people and property in the territory of the Republic of

Page 2447

 1     Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then you referred to an incident with

 2     the passenger cars -- or actually, TAS vehicles, and you had some part in

 3     that.

 4        A.   Well, I don't remember.  I can see that the document was signed

 5     by Deputy Prime Minister Trbojevic on my behalf.  But I do remember the

 6     problem, I do.  The government had charged the authorised ministry to

 7     draft a report in this case about this, but generally the practice was

 8     for the ministry to be charged with providing information on the security

 9     of persons and property, and you can see that we were particularly

10     focusing on the task products.

11             Madam Prosecutor asked me a few days ago, and she placed things

12     in a certain context, and I can say that we did everything, we did

13     everything to keep the factory working, because it was important for us

14     for the TAS car factory in Sarajevo to keep working, because it happened

15     to be a source of industrial production pride in Serbian Bosnia and

16     Herzegovina, and other than that, we wanted to maintain production and

17     the production of cars for fiscal reasons, because how can the government

18     work if companies don't pay regular tax?  And I made a considerable

19     effort, and all the company representatives know that.  They know that.

20     I mean, their reports need to be looked at, who did how much and what

21     efforts were invested to protect the factory.  And in any case, at least

22     to try to compensate for a part of the damages that were inflicted.

23             I can -- I mean, I can speak much more about this.

24        Q.    I'm going to deal with that through specific questions, but for

25     the benefit of the Trial Chamber, I would like to explain.  The

Page 2448

 1     abbreviation is Tvornica Automobila Sarajevo.  Sarajevo car factory, TAS.

 2     So we're going to use the abbreviation.

 3        A.   Yes, it was a Volkswagon car manufacturing plant.

 4        Q.   And Golf passenger cars were assembled in that plant, weren't

 5     they?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7        Q.   The task issued by the government --

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at document 65 ter

 9     1398.

10        Q.   It's report by inspectors of the Romanija-Birac CSB centres,

11     whose assignment it was to go and investigate what was happening in that

12     factory.

13             On page 1 I'm going to draw your attention to paragraph 2, where

14     it says -- here we are on the first page now.  That:

15             "On the same day when we arrived, a meeting was organised by the

16     Vogosca leadership, representatives of the military authorities, and the

17     judiciary, by the prison authorities, and it was also attended by chiefs

18     of the public security stations and the commands."

19             And then a couple of sentences later on the same page it is noted

20     that the criminal investigation service -- there was no service in the

21     Vogosca station, and particularly of concern was the occurrence of theft

22     of cars from the compound of the TAS factory.  Then the inspectors note

23     that there is a suspicion about the legality of the transactions that had

24     to do with the removal of the vehicles.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at page 2 in

Page 2449

 1     the Serbian version.  It's also on page 2 in the English version.

 2        Q.   Professor, this is the paragraph in the middle, and it begins on

 3     the date -- with the date, on the 6th of July.  Let's --

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We're still not on the document in

 5     the English version.  Oh, we are on the document.

 6        Q.   There is an interesting remark here, Professor, by the

 7     inspectors.  They say that representatives of the basic court from

 8     Sarajevo came to Vogosca.  The prosecutor, the public prosecutor,

 9     representatives of the Ministry of Justice both from Sarajevo, with whom

10     it was previously agreed that they would come and stay for some time in

11     order to carry out work from their jurisdiction.

12             And so if you can now pay attention to the following assertion:

13     The representatives left the following day in three new passenger

14     vehicles, Golf model ones, saying on that occasion that they had

15     completed their task.

16             Evidently the inspectors had a much more difficult task than it

17     would seem at first glance.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the of the

19     report, the last five lines before the signature.  We can already see it

20     in English.  If we can just scroll down in the English.

21        Q.   Professor, you're at the end of the document; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   We can see something quite interesting here, and it says:

24             "In addition, the meeting expressed an opinion that the staffing

25     policies of the Vogosca SJB can be conducted only by the SJB chief and

Page 2450

 1     his workers collective, and no one from the MUP or the municipality could

 2     appoint people to this service.

 3             "In addition, it was said at the meeting that we were now persona

 4     non grata, and there was no need for us to be there.  We should have come

 5     earlier and so on."

 6             In your opinion does this seem to you to be the remnant of the

 7     local influence on the police stations due to which the Ministry of

 8     Internal Affairs evidently has problems to discipline the station?

 9        A.   Well, yes.  Here you have the most telling examples of how this

10     persisted relatively.  Here we are in July --

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, apparently Ms. Korner has given up on

12     objecting to this line of questioning, but how does it assist -- how does

13     this assist the Chamber whose responsibility it is at the end of the day

14     to make decisions?  How does specifically in this case this witness's

15     opinion on a document that he had nothing to do with at all, apparently

16     of a site visit to this car factory that he wasn't even a part -- where

17     is this taking us?

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this report and all

19     the subsequent ones on the factory were drafted pursuant to orders and

20     assignments issued by the government and the prime minister to the MUP to

21     investigate an affair.  So the whole matter is being presented through

22     this witness.  This is what I'm trying to do.

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes, but -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I will -- I will

24     repeat my objection again.

25             The question that he was asked on this was:

Page 2451

 1             "In your opinion, does this seem to be the remnant of the local

 2     influence on the police stations due to which the Ministry of Internal

 3     Affairs evidently has problems to discipline the station?"

 4             This witness does not know from Adam what this is a remnant of.

 5     He got the report, that's it, if he got the report at all.

 6             So he cannot deal with that, and his answer is absolutely

 7     worthless, Mr. Cvijetic, because it's no more than a guess than anybody

 8     else in this court can do.  And I hope that's clear, and I'm going to --

 9     I stopped repeating the objection because it wasn't getting anywhere.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right.  The witness confirmed

11     that this was a remnant of such occurrences and that he knows that there

12     were such local influences on the local stations.  But, Your Honours,

13     here I will agree.  I'm not going to ask the witness to provide comments

14     of this kind, but I am going to go through the reports until we get to

15     the final outcome of the investigation, because that was an assignment

16     issued by the Ministry of the Internal Affairs and which -- to the MUP

17     and which it carried out, and it is said in the operational programme

18     that they should deal with organised crime, and then there is a specific

19     order here to resolve a particular affair that has to do with that kind

20     of activity, and I would like to throw some light on that.

21             MS. KORNER:  All right.  The witness should be asked:  "Did you

22     see this whole series of reports at the time or subsequently?"  If the

23     answer is no, then he can't do anything else but comment on contents in

24     the same way as anybody who reads them can.  So that is the first

25     question that has to be asked before this tedious procedure can go on.

Page 2452

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, of course I will

 2     [microphone not activated] any decision, any of your rulings, but

 3     Mr. Djeric did not recognise even his own presence in some meetings that

 4     were shown to him at the Presidency, but he did comment on the content of

 5     the meeting and the minutes or the agenda, actually, the agenda.

 6             Very well.  I'm going to wait for your decision before I

 7     continue.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, please continue if only because the --

10     we are likely to reach the end of this exercise more quickly without

11     having to give rulings on each of these objections, verbalised or not,

12     which your line of questions invite.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm going to skip a

14     few documents.  I'm going to just show 65 ter 305 [as interpreted].

15        Q.    Since we're talking -- we see here that the 47th session of the

16     government is being referred to, held on the 20th of August, 1992, where

17     the prevention of crimes was discussed.  The minister of the interior on

18     the occasion of that meeting -- this is document 25 in your -- in your

19     set of documents.  Document 25.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There was a mistake in the

21     transcript.  It should be 65 ter 306, document 306.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There was a misunderstanding.  I

24     did say 65 ter 306, but it came out differently in the transcript.

25        Q.   Mr. Djeric, as a result of the discussion at the government

Page 2453

 1     session, the minister became involved and established the deadline by

 2     which this affair had to be investigated.  Do you remember the session at

 3     which this was discussed?

 4        A.   Yes, but as to details --

 5        Q.   The minister refers to the task he received at the government

 6     session.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And he establishes a deadline by which the investigation should

 9     be completed.

10             My question is the following:  Do you know what was ultimately

11     discovered?  What happened concerning these vehicles?  Do you remember

12     how the affair ended?

13        A.   I can't remember the details, but the whole problem was to find

14     out what had happened with these vehicles.  They seemed to have sprouted

15     wings and flown here and there.  Who took possession of these vehicles?

16     Who played a role in all this?  Because we knew at the time that the

17     commercial enterprises which had paid for the vehicles were looking for

18     ways to retrieve these vehicles, not to mention all the vultures from the

19     region which had gathered around that place.

20        Q.   Well, let's look at the last document which might throw some

21     light on what we're talking about.  It's 65 ter 1350.

22             Professor, it's under the same number, the last document.  Did

23     you have occasion to see this letter of the republican commissioner,

24     Nikola Poplasen?

25        A.   No.

Page 2454

 1        Q.   Addressed to the War Presidency of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   No, I did not, but I can explain how this came about.

 3        Q.   Please do.

 4        A.   Because I complained to the political top saying that things

 5     could not be done in this way and that they should intervene, and then

 6     the commissioner went there, too, and I suppose that's how this letter

 7     came about.

 8        Q.   Yes.  And we can see from the letter that the sale was being done

 9     in order to obtain means for Vogosca; do you see that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Either for hard currency or goods we're interested in, and the

12     ministry of the economy should be tasked with this, with the tasks and

13     Vogosca.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So while the ministry was carrying out the investigation, on the

16     24th of June these vehicles were sent with this purpose.

17        A.   Well, I can't say with what purpose, because it follows from this

18     letter that that was the intention, that some of the vehicles went for

19     other purposes.

20        Q.   But this last document does contribute to clarifying the affair,

21     does it not?

22        A.   Well, there were cars found in storage, and everybody tried to

23     profit by this, and the local officials in Vogosca, as you can see,

24     ensured the command of the army in this way.  I'm now speaking based on

25     this document.

Page 2455

 1        Q.   But the truth came to light owing to the investigation carried

 2     out by the ministry; is that correct?  All right.

 3        A.   Well, this is a letter from the commissioner,

 4     Commissioner Poplasen.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6        A.   That's the line of the Presidency now.

 7        Q.   From the document issued by the government, there was another

 8     obligation following from that for the ministry to inform the government

 9     on the security situation, the security of people and property, and the

10     general security situation in the republic.  Do you remember that this

11     was in the document?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have document 65 ter 176,

14     please.

15        Q.   In your case it's document 26.

16        A.   Pardon?

17        Q.   Document 26, information on certain aspects.  Well, just please

18     wait a minute until we find this on the screen.

19             So the Ministry of the Interior, and in the heading we see that

20     it is delivering to the president of the government and the president of

21     the Presidency, information on certain aspects of work carried out up to

22     that point and tasks ahead.

23             Have you looked at the document?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I'll -- I'll give you time to look through it.  As it's addressed

Page 2456

 1     to you directly, please look right through it.  It might jog your memory.

 2             We'll go through some passages.  I'll be putting questions.

 3        A.   Well, I can't remember this particular document, but I do know

 4     that these orders and these tasks were given.

 5        Q.   And this would be a response to some of those orders.  We'll

 6     dwell on a few examples.

 7        A.   I don't know.  This mentions information, some aspects of the

 8     work done to date and tasks ahead, and we asked information on the

 9     security of property and of persons.

10        Q.   Very well.  Do you agree that we look inside the document to see

11     whether it contains a response to your question?

12             We can open the first page.  The page right after the title page.

13     Yes.  It's already open both in the English and the Serbian versions.

14             So I'll ask you, first of all, Mr. Djeric, do you know about this

15     meeting in Belgrade where the minister gathered all the chiefs of the

16     security services together for the first time?  You spoke of the problems

17     people had in travelling, and there was a meeting of the collegium of the

18     police in Belgrade.

19        A.   Yes, there certainly were problems in travelling, getting from

20     one place to another.  And as for this meeting, I don't really see why it

21     should have been held in Belgrade.  Why did it have to be in Belgrade?

22        Q.   Well, the policeman explained why.  It was a central point where

23     everybody was able to travel at that point.  But let's look at --

24        A.   Well, I think it shouldn't have been done that way.

25        Q.   All right.  On the first page the minister is providing

Page 2457

 1     information, saying that a good part of the police force, and he says the

 2     same on the next page, has been mobilised and used for military purposes.

 3     You can see that on pages 2 and 3 as well.  And that this is hindering

 4     the completion of the basic tasks of the police.

 5             Were you aware of the use of the police force for wartime

 6     purposes, and did this really happen?

 7        A.   Well, the police were used for war purposes.  This is not in

 8     dispute.

 9        Q.   Who was in charge of that?

10        A.   The president, the army, and so on.  The police could be

11     resubordinated to the army and the vertical chain of command.

12        Q.   Yes, that's it.  Let's now move to page 3 in the Serbian version.

13        A.   But I don't agree that the mobilisation component could make it

14     impossible for the remainder of the ministry to do their job.

15        Q.   We'll come to that.  Let's take it step by step.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the English version we're on

17     page 3, and we're also on page 3 in the Serbian version.  So in the B/C/S

18     version it's the fourth paragraph, and in the English version it's also

19     the fourth paragraph.

20        Q.   Attention is drawn to the fact here that neither the military nor

21     the civilian judiciary is functioning, that Judges have not been elected,

22     that several thousand court cases remain unresolved in the Bosnian

23     Krajina, that there are no Judges to deal with criminal cases, that

24     they're intimidated, that they are being threatened and so on, that

25     hardened criminals are being released from gaol, and all this is

Page 2458

 1     affecting the establishment of the rule of law and the work of the

 2     ministry.  So this topic has been broached in this report.

 3             Do you know about these problems in the functioning of the

 4     judiciary organs, especially the military ones, and did you discuss this

 5     at the government?

 6        A.   Well, there were problems in the beginning initially, and then in

 7     June, I think, a decision was reached to establish military courts, a

 8     military prosecutor's office, the military judiciary organs.  Yes, that

 9     is true, and in this passage it talks about the problems I had as the

10     president of the government.  You see, there were problems in the

11     judiciary.  These two ministries were always being highlighted as the key

12     ministries.

13        Q.   Now that you've mentioned the military judiciary organs, are you

14     aware that in the division of competencies war crimes fell under the

15     jurisdiction of the military courts and were tried there?

16        A.   I can't speak about these competencies here, but what I do know

17     is that all these problems concerning the judiciary were under the care

18     of Mr. Trbojevic.  He was in charge of dealing with all of that.

19        Q.   Let's move on to page 4 in the Serbian version.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And we're on page 3 in English.

21        Q.   Let me just see.  In the Serbian version it's paragraph 2 on page

22     4.  Let's just wait until we find the English version.  And on page 3

23     it's the fifth paragraph in the English version.  Page 3, paragraph 5.

24             Have you found it?

25        A.   Page?

Page 2459

 1        Q.   Four, paragraph 2.  Please read it.

 2             "It was pointed out that the priority for both the national

 3     service and the crime investigation service, that's the MUP is to detect

 4     war crimes, provide documentation and file criminal reports, documents

 5     also provided for war crimes committed by Serbs."

 6        A.   I already mentioned that.  No distinction was drawn.  All crimes

 7     had to be prosecuted.

 8        Q.   When you say that the government asked for this to be done, it

 9     also refers to the organ tasked with this area.  If you agree, let's look

10     at page 6.

11        A.   I beg your pardon.  If this is an opportunity for me to speak

12     about this, I'll speak about it now.

13             The government kept asking for this to be done, but this was kept

14     back at the level of the Presidency.

15        Q.   We'll deal with that in due course.  Page 6, Professor, of the

16     Serbian version, the second paragraph.  And page 4 in the English

17     version, paragraph 5.

18             Here you have a statement saying that the Ministry of the

19     Interior is a professional police with no influence from politics,

20     individuals and groups, and so on.  And then reference is made to a

21     decision of the Presidency of the Srpska Republika saying that no party

22     activities should be carried out in the police.  It seems that the

23     government at one of its sessions issued the conclusion that in wartime

24     conditions, and when there is an imminent threat of war, all political

25     activity should be stopped.

Page 2460

 1             Do you remember that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do remember that the government issued this conclusion and

 3     insisted with the political leadership that this should be strictly

 4     respected, because there would have been huge problems if political

 5     parties had continued being active in these institutions.

 6        Q.   It says that:  "Our work is professional work within the scope of

 7     the work of the Ministry of the Interior on establishing the rule of

 8     law," and so on.  So attention is drawn to professionalism in the work of

 9     the organs of the Ministry of the Interior, and this had the support of

10     the government.  Is that right?

11             You're not listening to me, Professor.  So there is government

12     support.

13        A.   Well, I've already answered that.  The government supported that

14     long before.  That was the context in which they were operating.

15        Q.   We are now on page 7 of the Serbian version, paragraph 1.  And we

16     are on page 4 of the English version, the last paragraph.

17             So in accordance to the operations plan of the government, we

18     have anti-crime combat here as one of the primary goals.  Is that

19     correct, Professor?  Regardless of the perpetrators.

20             Are you on the correct page?  Page 7, paragraph 4, I think.

21             So the variant of this position you can also find on page 8 of

22     the Serbian version.  And now we're going to see where that is in the

23     English version.  In the English version this is page 5, the last

24     paragraph, the paragraph but last.

25             Have you found that there?  It's the last paragraph on page 8.

Page 2461

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And in the English we have it, and

 2     we should be on the eighth page in the Serbian version, last paragraph.

 3     Scroll up.  Scroll up.  Thank you.  Yes, the last paragraph.

 4        Q.   Professor, you can see the tasks which should constantly be

 5     insisted upon include prevention and detection of crimes and their

 6     perpetrators with emphasis on the most serious crimes regardless of the

 7     perpetrators."

 8             It seems to me that - how can I put it -- it fits in with the

 9     policies of the government that we talked about.

10        A.   Yes, we did talk about that.

11        Q.   And there is a separate conclusion on page 9 by the ministry.

12     It's page 9, one paragraph but last.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And in the English version this is

14     on page 6, paragraph 3.

15        Q.   And this is what we talked about, the prevention and documenting

16     of war crimes.  This is paragraph 3 on this page.  So documenting of war

17     crimes, and in the professional sense what is stated here is how it will

18     be documented and who is going to participate in that.

19             So pursuant to what was said in the operative programme, the

20     ministry had already specified the practical measures to implement that

21     in this conclusion, Professor.

22        A.   Yes.  This is material that only expresses wishes and intentions,

23     you know.

24        Q.   Very well.  Can you now look at page 11, please, paragraph 2.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]   I think that we are on page 6 of

Page 2462

 1     the English version, the last sentence down there.

 2        Q.   Professor, the ministry here has touched upon financial --

 3     financing matters, and I think we have now come to the question that we

 4     have touched upon before with the Ministry of the Internal Affairs where

 5     it says that it has to be financed exclusively from the budget of

 6     Republika Srpska and so on and so forth.

 7             You talked a little bit about that.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And the reasons for that.  I'm only asking you about that, not

10     only in relation to this document, but you personally as the prime

11     minister, the reasons why it's essential for an organ as important as

12     this to be financed from the central budget.  What are they?

13        A.   Well, any police in the world or any MUP is financed from the

14     budget, because it's an organ of the public administration, a part of the

15     government of the state, and it cannot be financed on a day-to-day,

16     case-by-case basis, you know.  But this paragraph here is interesting,

17     and the reasons for that is that the ministry, and primarily the

18     minister, understood that the Ministry of the Internal Affairs and the

19     police has to be financed from the budget but not in the way that he

20     thought of previously, not by confiscating property and wherever they can

21     get their funds on.  I mean, we had a dispute about that.  Simply there

22     were certain practices that were directly favoured by the minister but

23     which actually deviated from this manner of financing, and then he

24     understood that he could not do it any other way than the proper way.

25        Q.   But he understood that and then he issued the order?

Page 2463

 1        A.   Yes, he did understood that, and then -- he did understand that,

 2     and that's what it says here, but the government, I remember, we did deal

 3     with that matter and there were open disputes about that where the

 4     minister was told that he could not do things in that way.

 5        Q.   And as you can see, this was effective, and in the material it

 6     says that he did --

 7        A.   Take measures.

 8        Q.   -- take measures.  All right.  Very well.  I don't know how we

 9     are for time, but one of the tasks from the operative programme was for

10     the ministry to adopt certain documents so that organ could be forced to

11     adhere to regulations.  So it's not enough only to have the law on the

12     internal affairs, but it was necessary also to adopt some internal

13     documents, and I did find somewhere that it was you who insisted that

14     things be done to that effect, and so I would just like to list the

15     documents that the minister managed to adopt in that period in spite of

16     all of his commitments.  So we're not going to deal with the professional

17     part of that set of documents.  I will show you just some regulations.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at exhibit

19     1D50.  Yes.

20             We will not enter the document.  We are just going to list to see

21     how many of these documents the minister adopted.  We're not going to

22     look at all them.  We will just see.  Yes, here.

23        Q.   Mr. Djeric, you can see here the minister adopted, amongst other

24     things, the instructions on the rules of behaviour and interpersonal

25     relations of the personnel of the Ministry of the Interior.  Namely, this

Page 2464

 1     is an instruction that the police refers to as the code of conduct of

 2     policemen.

 3             I don't know if you had any access to these normative activities

 4     of the ministry, but I am going to list for you what the minister adopted

 5     in that period, internal documents.

 6        A.   Well, of course I didn't have access to the internal documents of

 7     the ministry.  I really --

 8             MS. KORNER:  [Overlapping speakers] "I'm going to list for you

 9     the documents that are produced."  Well, how is this going to take us

10     anywhere?  How can this witness comment on documents he's never seen

11     before?  And he appears to be nodding in agreement.  There must be some

12     control over where cross-examination goes, Your Honours, with the

13     greatest of respect.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any

15     intention of dealing with the actual document and for the witness to

16     interpret them in the professional sense, because I know he's unable to

17     do that, but I'm letting him know that according to the operational

18     programme of the government, the ministry was obliged to adopt these

19     documents.  The documents have been admitted as exhibits, and all I wish

20     to do is to list to the witness how many documents the minister adopted

21     acting pursuant to the instructions of the government.  I don't wish to

22     discuss the substance of the documents.  I just wish to prove that the

23     operative programme duties were actually fulfilled and met.  This is what

24     I want to prove, only that.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, this is not the time to prove

Page 2465

 1     anything, nor does the Defence have to prove anything.  The point of

 2     having a witness there is to ask the witness questions about matters on

 3     which he can comment or put to him matters which are not accepted by the

 4     Defence.  We haven't even remotely begun to get near what this witness

 5     has said about Mr. Stanisic himself.

 6             Now, Your Honours, I do object to this.  I don't think

 7     Mr. Cvijetic has grasped the fact that you don't just show a witness

 8     things, you ask a witness questions either to get information from him

 9     or, alternatively, to contradict what he said in evidence.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before you make the

12     decision, can we discuss this without the presence of the witness,

13     please?

14             JUDGE HALL:  The difficulty that the Chamber's facing,

15     Mr. Cvijetic, is what Mrs. Korner has just articulated in her -- the last

16     part of her submission is something that we have lost count of the number

17     of times in today's session that -- the point that we have made, and yet

18     your persist in dealing with these documents in this manner, and I quite

19     frankly don't know what -- what else to say.

20             The -- as I said earlier, it seemed to me at some point that

21     rather than trying to interrupt you that we would get through this

22     painful exercise more quickly if you were just allowed to continue, but

23     the Chamber is prepared to accept that you as -- to presume, I should

24     say, that as counsel you have a point initially as to where -- even if it

25     isn't apparent to us, but when it becomes patent that the witness is

Page 2466

 1     being asked -- offer comments of documents that are just being dumped in,

 2     as Mrs. Korner has, with respect, correctly said, we must draw a line

 3     some place.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  If we can just have

 5     the witness go out so that we can explain what we mean.  We don't want to

 6     keep the witness.  We wish to discuss this a little bit.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  If you think that would assist.

 8             Mr. Djeric, we are about to take a break in about five minutes,

 9     so you're excused a little ahead of that.  We would -- we would resume

10     with you in 25 minutes.  So you're excused from the chamber for the time

11     being.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's like this, Your Honours:  In

16     reference to the assertion by the witness from his previous testimony

17     that Mr. Stanisic in some way was not under the control of the prime

18     minister, that he was closer to the Presidency than to the government,

19     and so on and so forth, we have started to pursue a line proving the

20     opposite, that Mr. Stanisic was a minister in that government, that as

21     the minister in that government all the tasks that he got from the

22     government he regularly fulfilled, and even though -- and those who got

23     from the president personally and from the government, and all those

24     tasks that were given to him through the government's operational

25     programme he fulfilled them.  So I have embarked on proving those issues.

Page 2467

 1     So the assertion by Mr. Djeric that can be boiled down to just saying

 2     that the minister was not seen by him often, that he was often or mostly

 3     with the president, the only way to deal with that assertion is to show

 4     Mr. Djeric documents and what that minister did in these conditions,

 5     whereby we will prove that he was a member of the government indeed, and

 6     that as a minister in that government he completely fulfilled his duties

 7     in accordance with the law and his powers.

 8             We believe that this is a real way of disputing his plain

 9     statement that things were not like that.  We could also say that what

10     he's saying is not true, but this is something that you would not accept.

11     So the only realistic way is to demonstrate through using and showing you

12     documents that that is not correct.  That is our objective.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour -- sorry.

14             JUDGE HALL:  No.  I was going to say that that is -- I understand

15     everything that you have said.  My -- what I'm having difficulty with is

16     where the documents that you -- on which you're seeking to rely have and

17     on the face of it no connection with the witness and when the witness

18     indicates he knows nothing about it, never seen it before, mustn't you

19     abandon the line on that particular document and move on?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, precisely this

21     witness signed the operative plan and programme that instructed the

22     minister to adopt all of these documents.  So how can I now not use the

23     opportunity to show him that the minister did act according to his

24     instructions and adopted all of those documents, instructions, books of

25     rules, remember the rules on internal operations, disciplinary

Page 2468

 1     regulations and so on.  So the only way I can dispute his assertions is

 2     to show him documents.  We don't have to deal with the substance of the

 3     documents with the witness, and this is not what I'm going to -- I'm just

 4     going to list the instructive acts and documents that the minister

 5     adopted.  I'm just going to list them.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, what Mr. Cvijetic is doing is giving

 7     evidence.  It is not for him to list documents to a witness.

 8     Mr. Stanisic, if he decides to give evidence, or when his interview goes

 9     in, can -- will be dealing with all of this.  He is the person who did,

10     or one of the other officers.  This witness cannot deal with it.

11             All he can say to the witness is, "I suggest to you that you are

12     wrong," or however he puts it when you say that Mr. Stanisic did not

13     carry out the tasks.  It is then for him in a proper manner not as I

14     suggest what is now an improper manner of reading lists of documents to

15     the witness to establish that this witness may be wrong.  In fact, this

16     witness did not say -- and this whole line of cross-examination is

17     misconceived.  He didn't say that Mr. Stanisic didn't do his job.  His

18     complaint was that Mr. Stanisic did not turn up to meetings and bypassed

19     him as the prime minister, and he's shown that he sent him a report.

20             So I certainly object, and it is a time and -- I mean, enormously

21     time-wasting exercise because this is not a proper way to put the point

22     across that you want to put across.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think that Ms. Korner has now

24     mentioned reasons for the opposite.  The only way to respond to the

25     assertions by the prime minister that the minister of internal affairs

Page 2469

 1     didn't really work properly is to present to him the results of his work

 2     and argued by documents, not just by plain statements.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway, it's pastime for the break.  We will resume

 4     in 20 minutes.

 5             Mr. Cvijetic, when you return you will remember the cautions that

 6     the Chamber has given you and the helpful advice that the Prosecutor has

 7     offered.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 5.37 p.m.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I've been asked because of witness

12     production schedules to establish how much longer this witness is likely

13     to be.  I understand about an hour to an hour and a half.  Is that right?

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I also need

15     some time tomorrow, up to the first break.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Which is a useful segue for saying, as the witness

17     is on his way back in, that we don't propose to formally rule on

18     Ms. Korner's objection beyond the observations that we would have already

19     made, but Mr. Cvijetic would bear in mind the time limitation that he

20     has, and also that at the end of the -- this witness's testimony the

21     Chamber has to decide on the putting into effect the ruling that we would

22     have given two weeks ago now as to what documents become exhibits.

23             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  And I gather Mr. Pantelic is

24     only going to be about five minutes with the witness.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, up to now.  If something will arise, then I

Page 2470

 1     must react.

 2             And, Your Honours, I don't know if you are informed that I would

 3     like to address the Chamber at the end of this session for five minutes.

 4     I informed the registry, but if it's convenient, just for your knowledge.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please continue.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Djeric, in compliance with, so to speak, informal decision of

11     the Chamber in connection with the orders to the Ministry from the

12     operative programme of the government, I will only say that the minister

13     of the interior in this period issued rules on the disciplinary

14     responsibility of employees of the organs of the interior in conditions

15     of war and imminent threat of war, instructions on the rules of conduct

16     and mutual relationships in the MUP, instructions on urgent ongoing

17     statistical reporting of the Ministry of the Interior, binding

18     instructions on actions to be taken by the Ministry of the Interior when

19     carrying out search activities, instructions on reporting on the work of

20     the ministry, and be prepared for adoption the most comprehensive

21     document, the book of rules on the internal organisation of the Ministry

22     of the Interior.  To be quite honest, I thought of bringing it here to

23     show you what a voluminous document it is.  It has over 500 pages.

24             Are you aware of all this, and are you aware of this activity of

25     the Ministry of the Interior?  Are you aware of any of this?

Page 2471

 1        A.   Well, every ministry produced its own documentation, rules, and

 2     so on.  It was their duty to do so.  It was their obligation.

 3        Q.   And it also follows from the operational programme of the

 4     government.

 5        A.   Yes, for the ministries.

 6        Q.   Well, now I'm asking you in specific terms since I can't show

 7     these documents.  Do you believe me that the minister adopted or issued

 8     all these documents?

 9        A.   Well, I don't want to go into that.  Why wouldn't I believe you?

10             JUDGE HALL:  Just a moment, Mr. Cvijetic.  The -- the -- your

11     last question which the witness answered before I could raise a query,

12     are you -- since you can't be giving evidence, are you inviting the

13     witness to find -- to accept as a fact this list that you have put to

14     him?

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't see any

16     third way.  One way would be to show him each of these documents.  You

17     suggested that this would not be a good idea.  Now I've read out to him a

18     list of the documents which I assert were issued by the minister and

19     which have been admitted into evidence.  So I'm asking the witness

20     whether he knows of the existence of these documents.

21             JUDGE HALL:  So they have been in evidence, is that the position?

22     These are documents in evidence already.  I see.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Your Honours -- Your

24     Honours, all of them except the last one were introduced by way of the

25     last witness and admitted into evidence.

Page 2472

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  Please proceed, but still there is --

 2     I'm not sure that the --

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, there's no evidence before the Court

 4     other than any -- an assertion by Mr. Cvijetic as to who prepared the

 5     documents which are in evidence.  They're in evidence.  Mr. Cvijetic has

 6     asserted it.  He's giving evidence.  It's improper.  And this witness

 7     can't -- why this witness should believe or disbelieve Mr. Cvijetic is a

 8     complete mystery to me.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Well, it's that last point that I wanted

10     clarification on, whether the -- wouldn't it have been necessary for you

11     to get an answer from this witness as to whether he accepted that list of

12     documents or list of events as a fact before he could comment on it?

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think I've already asked him

14     about this in a similar way.

15        Q.   Mr. Djeric -- Mr. Djeric, you've heard the list of documents

16     which I assert were issued by the minister.  Do you accept this as a

17     correct fact?

18        A.   I don't want to go into that, because these documents on the

19     internal organisation and so on were never something we disputed about.

20        Q.   So you think it is not in dispute that the minister issued these

21     documents?

22        A.   Well, that is the work of the services of the ministry, they had

23     to do that.

24        Q.   But apart from his obligation to issue documents, the minister

25     also issued orders.  Do you know about this method of work of the

Page 2473

 1     minister of the interior?

 2        A.   Well, I assume that in that minister orders are issued.  That's

 3     the nature of the ministry, that ministry.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Some tasks from the operative programme of the

 5     government were implemented by the minister through his issuing of

 6     certain orders.  I would like to show some of these orders now by which

 7     the minister implemented the tasks assigned to him.  And later on, you

 8     can say whether these tasks follow from the operative plan and programme

 9     of the government.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have 65 ter 356,

11     please.

12        Q.   Mr. Djeric, in your binder it's document 27.  I do apologise for

13     not mentioning it before.

14             Now, please read.

15             Mr. Djeric, you will agree that before the adoption of the

16     government programme the minister started implementing the tasks

17     following from the law rather than the government programme?  Do you

18     agree with what I said, and can one see this from this order?

19        A.   Well, I don't know what orders the minister issued, so I can't

20     say.

21        Q.   But now that you do see the order, can you agree with my

22     conclusion that even before the government programme the minister started

23     working on these tasks?  Is this evident from this order?  Yes or no,

24     sir?  Let's not waste time.

25        A.   But you're asking me something -- you're asking me to say yes or

Page 2474

 1     no, but from my point of view the whole problem was in practice, in -- I

 2     see the order, yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  All right.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter 91, please.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djeric, it's document 28 in your binder.  Can you find your

 6     way in it?

 7             Within the scope of your assertion that in the beginning it was

 8     difficult even for the government to start functioning in lieu of all the

 9     problem we've mentioned, Mr. Djeric, the ministry also had its problems,

10     even quite elementary ones.

11             Do you see from this order that the minister dealt with securing

12     elementary conditions for his work, and does this fit into what you said

13     about the initial problems where you said that the state is being

14     constructed on a meadow?

15        A.   Yes, it might fit into that, but I have to say that it is the

16     minister's job to take care of that.

17        Q.   Very well.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document

19     65 ter 358 now.

20        Q.   I apologise, Professor.  In your set of documents, that is number

21     29.  I apologise.  Yes, yes.  That's it, 29.  It's a little bit bad, the

22     example, the copy, but anyway.

23             Mr. Djeric, when a minister assumes his duties, he has to know

24     what it says here.  Amongst other things, he has to ask to be informed

25     about the resources and the weaponry at the disposal of the public

Page 2475

 1     security stations that they are to work with.

 2             You would agree with me that perhaps that was one of the first

 3     tasks that he has to carry out so that he would know exactly what the

 4     means are at his disposal.  Do you agree with me?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you agree with me, yes or no?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  Well, let us go on now.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 360.

10        Q.   And according to me, perhaps this is something that a minister

11     should have done first to see what sort of a police force was at his

12     disposal.

13             Can you please look at item one in paragraph one where he's

14     trying to get the basic information, how many police stations there were.

15     So all of that we can bring into context.  You will agree with me with

16     the inaccessibility of all of those territories?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat his question.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Since the question was not in the transcript, I have to repeat

21     it.  Does that fit into the inaccessibility of specific territories so

22     that the minister himself also has the same sort of problems that you

23     referred to yourself?

24        A.   That problem did exist.  The problem did exist.  As for this

25     letter, I cannot say --

Page 2476

 1        Q.   Very well.  Very well.

 2        A.   -- whether that was caused by that or not.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4        A.   Because you can see from this letter that the minister is asking

 5     in order to be able to follow all the resources, he's seeking specific

 6     information.

 7        Q.   All right.  We're not going to spend any more time on that

 8     document.  We're going to look at an order sent directly to the minister.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at document

10     1D00-0507.

11        Q.   You've already opened document 31, so --

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]  We still don't have it in the BH

13     version.  All right.  That's it.

14        Q.   Can you please read the document slowly.  And can you please see

15     who signed the document.

16        A.   Well, I can see that Karadzic signed, the president.

17        Q.   Very well.

18        A.   But I cannot see anything about two platoons of the police forces

19     for special operations.

20        Q.   Can you look at the last sentence in that paragraph.

21        A.   "Inform the Presidency and the Supreme Command about the task

22     that is implemented.

23        Q.   And it says:

24             "And resubordinate to the military command of the

25     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps."  Do you see that?

Page 2477

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   You were talking about resubordination.  Is this one of those

 3     forms of resubordination?  When the supreme commander decides on the

 4     decision, that is why it says there are two platoons of the police and

 5     even it says to whom they should be resubordinated to; is that the answer

 6     you were talking about?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know if that is the way to do it like this two

 8     platoons and so on and so forth if this is done that way, but you know

 9     that police was resubordinated to the military police.

10        Q.   All right.  Now let us look at the next document and the reaction

11     of the minister to this order?

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document

13     1D00-0515 on the screen.

14        Q.   You've already opened the document so can you please read it

15     before we see it on the screen.  It's 0515.  All right.

16             Can you please look at Mr. Stanisic's response a little bit.

17             Mr. Stanisic says:

18             "This ministry has acted pursuant to your command," it says, so

19     he says that to the supreme commander, but from the text that continues,

20     you can see and you can confirm that he is unwillingly acting pursuant to

21     this order.

22             Do you remember the efforts by the minister to withdraw from

23     combat lines the policemen so that they could do their job?  And he's

24     even telling in some way, if I may put it that way, to the president.

25        A.   There were such efforts to ask for police for combat activities,

Page 2478

 1     but there was not enough of them over there.  So no regular police work

 2     was being done.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are overlapping.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I think that the response to my previous question was

 6     not entered into the transcript, so I have to put the question again.

 7             Is that a problem that existed really in relation to the

 8     engagement?

 9        A.   Yes, there was that problem.  It did exist, because the military

10     sought through the president to have a part of the police participate in

11     some operations, and this was not always met with approval for the simple

12     reason that the ministry complained that they were also having difficulty

13     with the shortage of men, and this is all I can say about it, nothing

14     more than that.

15        Q.   All right.  Very well.  Well, I hope everything's in the

16     transcript now.

17             Okay.  I would like to move to the next document.  This is 65 ter

18     180.  You have that in your set of documents under 33?  If something has

19     not changed, that is that document.

20             All right.  Let's look at the first page.  This is a document by

21     the minister of internal affairs requesting all the centres look at this

22     a little bit.  "Send him all the information regarding, A, the activities

23     of the paramilitary formations."  Under B:  "Information and data

24     regarding police participation in combat actions when this was not

25     necessary."  You can see that.  And then the number of policemen who took

Page 2479

 1     part, and so on.

 2             In the preamble or the introductory paragraph of this document,

 3     which you can look at, the minister states reasons for that which are the

 4     attempts to make certain distinctions and limitations with the military

 5     command and the military about the use of manpower.  You say that this

 6     was a long-standing problem and that the minister persistently tried to

 7     resolve it.

 8        A.   Yes, this was the problem about the jurisdiction between the

 9     police and the army, and it was constantly ongoing, and there were

10     conflicts about that regarding actions in the field.

11        Q.   All right, one of the ways to resolve that would be this order to

12     do this in a meeting and to define the jurisdictions more precisely?

13        A.   Yes.  There were constant attempts to try to resolve this matter.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document -- I

15     think it is Exhibit 1D58 of the court, meaning that it has already been

16     admitted as an exhibit.

17        Q.   And this is 34.  That's where it is in the binder of documents in

18     front of you.  1D58.

19             Mr. Djeric, do you know about the activity of the ministry aimed

20     at reducing the number of the reserve police and the elimination from

21     their ranks of perpetrators of criminal acts or those who tended to do

22     that?  Do you have any information about that?  Was this something that

23     was discussed at government meetings?

24        A.   There were no particular information about that other than the

25     order to the MUP to prosecute all perpetrators of crimes.  As for what

Page 2480

 1     the minister did subsequent to that, I don't know.  All I know is what

 2     the government sought to have done.  So this would be some proof of that.

 3        Q.   All right.  Just have some patience.  So this order would then

 4     reflect the tendencies -- the intention of the government.  Yes or no?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 1D55.

 7        Q.   And that's 35 in your binder.  Isn't that right?  Have you found

 8     it?  Very well.

 9             The minister is dealing with the matter here of pronouncing a

10     measure of detention and the manner that this will be done, and I'm going

11     to remind you here about your testimony where you were making a

12     difference between detention facilities.  There is a legally regulated

13     term of custody up to three days.  Do you know about that?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Do you know that there is also a kind of court custody?

16        A.   No, I don't know.

17        Q.   You don't know that?

18        A.   Well, that's not up to me.  I didn't deal with that.  This is in

19     the domain of the minister of justice and the minister of internal

20     affairs the kind of detention and custody facilities that they had.

21        Q.   All right.  Very well.  As part of their jurisdiction --

22             JUDGE HALL:  I would remind counsel and the witness to leave a

23     suitable interval for the interpreters, please.  Thank you.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   All right.  You will agree, Mr. Djeric, that the minister was

Page 2481

 1     doing his job?  He was carrying out duties that were part of his --

 2     within his purview?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 261.

 5     Can we please show that document to the witness.

 6        Q.   Mr. Djeric, that document is marked 36 in your binder.  Do you

 7     have that document?  Perhaps it's been mislaid somewhere.  That's it.

 8     Yes, yes.  Just go ahead and open it.  That's it.

 9             In the agenda and in the decisions of the government, I found

10     that the government dealt with the problem of the reduction of the number

11     of the police reserve force.  Did you deal with that matter?  Do you

12     remember that?

13        A.   No.  No, I don't.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, as you can see, this order is going in that

15     direction in light of that line that the minister wished to protect his

16     work.  He decided to place at the disposal of the military reserve

17     policemen and to relieve active policemen from front duty so that they

18     could carry on with their regular duties.  Is that along the line of what

19     you were talking about, the constant struggle in that sense?  Was there a

20     constant conflict about that?

21        A.   Well, from the way things were going on this was not something

22     that the government was dealing with, this was between the police and the

23     military.  And I know from talks that there was often conflict between

24     the ministry of the police and the army, and from some government

25     meetings there were conclusions that the two ministers should sit down

Page 2482

 1     and the police and the military should sit down and agree about the lines

 2     of jurisdiction among them.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Djeric, as part of the attempt to suppress all

 4     types of crime, it was the job of the ministry to investigate all the

 5     cases that it was able to investigate and to resolve them, especially

 6     those where the victims were non-Serbs.

 7             I think that you also talked about that, that there were such

 8     cases where these proceedings had to be completed.

 9        A.   Yes.  This was a request of the government for such perpetrators

10     to be prosecuted.

11        Q.   All right.  I'm going to take you through one case and then later

12     through a couple of others.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please open document --

14     this is your document 37.

15             So it's 1D00-617.  0617.  Just a moment until we find the

16     electronic version.  There it is.

17        Q.   Have you looked at this authorisation?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   Dragan Andan, an inspector of the police administration was

20     tasked with touring the public security stations, police stations to

21     inspect their work, offer professional advice, and so on.

22             I'll go through the result of one such visit as we don't have

23     time to deal with all of them.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the next

25     document, 65 ter 194.

Page 2483

 1        Q.    It's 38 in your binder.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And please go on to the next page

 3     both in B/C/S and English.  This is just the cover letter.  So let's go

 4     and look at the information in English as well.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djeric --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   -- have you had a chance to leaf through this?

 8        A.   I'm looking at it.

 9        Q.   What did Mr. Dragan Andan find in Bijeljina, for example?  It's

10     in the middle of the first paragraph, so go back to the first page where

11     it says "Information."  It says, the paramilitary units, and so on and so

12     forth.  And on that same page in passage three, he says:

13             "The population, both Muslims and Serbs, are being terrorised.

14     There are cases of rape, looting.  Over ten persons of different

15     nationalities have been killed."  You see that?  "Without any evident

16     motive.  All these cases remain unresolved," and so on and so forth.

17             On the next page -- we can move on to page 2.  On the next page.

18     On page 2 Mr. Andan is speaking about what specifically he found in the

19     police station, what steps he took for the situation to improve.

20             Look at the footnote on page 3.

21             "Because of abuse of illegal work and so on, 17 employees have

22     been removed."

23             Is that right?  Could you please look at the date when this was

24     written.  The Ministry of the Interior, you will agree, is putting in

25     order the situation on the ground by sending inspectors to improve it.

Page 2484

 1     Are you aware of this form of work of the ministry?

 2        A.   Yes.  That was how the government worked, to look for

 3     information.  As regards the quality of that information, it varied, but

 4     first of all, proposals of measures were sought.  You see that there are

 5     no such proposals in this information.

 6        Q.   Yes, on page 3 --

 7        A.   Well, that's what was done, but I am referring to proposals for

 8     measures to be taken by the government, because the inspector was there,

 9     but there are no measures proposed for the government to take --

10        Q.   Well, be patient and we'll come to that.

11        A.   This is a typical inspector's report.

12        Q.   My question was -- well, it's the 29th of July, if I'm not wrong.

13             May I now show you a document?  It's 39 in your binder.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]  It's 65 ter 1285.

15        Q.   Have you found it?

16        A.   Yes, I have.

17        Q.   Dragan Andan, you'll see in the signature below, as the chief is

18     processing the case of the first international murder in Bijeljina -- or

19     rather, inter-ethnic murder in Bijeljina.  The perpetrators were

20     discovered.  They were brought in and handed over to the appropriate

21     prosecutor's office, along with a criminal report.

22             Would you agree that this form of work of the ministry did yield

23     results?  You were talking about practical results.  Well, here they are.

24     And all the other ten murders were also dealt with you will see.  So this

25     is a response to what you said before.

Page 2485

 1        A.   Well, this was what the government insisted on, on this way of

 2     working to prosecute these people and prove that they've been prosecuted.

 3        Q.   All right.  Mr. Djeric, I've shown you one example.  I think

 4     we'll be dealing with larger cases than this, but now I'd like to move on

 5     to another topic, and that's the problem of detention, collection

 6     centres, camps, and prisons.

 7             You say that this was an ongoing problem that both you and the

 8     government and the Presidency dealt with on an ongoing basis.

 9        A.   Well, I'm talking about the government.  The government ordered

10     the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of the Interior to do things,

11     but we couldn't issue orders to the army.  It was others who were in

12     charge of the army, not us.

13        Q.   Please pause before you answer my question for the sake of the

14     interpretation.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have document which

16     has been admitted into evidence, 1D56.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Where is it?

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   It's your document 40A, right after 40.  It's handwritten.

20     That's it.  I think that's it.  Yes.

21             Have you found it, 1D56?  It's an exhibit.

22             Have you read the order?

23        A.   What's this?  I can't find what this is about.

24        Q.   It's 40A.  It's next one.  That's it.

25        A.   But I don't see that it says "Order" here to the chief

Page 2486

 1     personally.

 2        Q.   It says down below, "I order."  That's why I called it an order.

 3             It's an order by which the minister is establishing how prisoners

 4     of war and the civilian population should be treated, as well as

 5     refugees.  And this should be done exclusively in compliance with the

 6     law, the competencies of the MUP, and the provisions of international law

 7     and international conventions.  That's all in paragraph one.

 8             And paragraph two deals with the gathering of information on

 9     so-called ad hoc prisons and camps, and then all those who violate these

10     rules and international conventions, they're to be prosecuted.

11             So did this order follow from the decisions of the government?

12        A.   One can conclude that it referred -- or, rather, relied upon the

13     government's decisions.

14        Q.   The next document is an exhibit.  In your binder it's 41, and

15     it's Exhibit 1D57.

16             Have you managed to read the document?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   The Ministry of Health were -- Labour and Social Welfare is

19     applying to the security services, and it says here:

20             "The following information must be delivered regardless of

21     jurisdiction."

22             The minister acted on this request from the health ministry

23     regardless of jurisdiction and ordered that this information be gathered,

24     the information mentioned here.

25             I have to ask you again.  Does this manner of working fit into

Page 2487

 1     the government's normal ways of proceeding, that the ministries should

 2     co-operate and exchange information?  Briefly.  There's not much time.

 3     It's a question that has to do with the government.

 4        A.   With the government, Dragan Kalinic, who was the Minister of

 5     Health, he was the president of the republic, and I assume that that's

 6     where his letter came from sent to the Ministry of the Interior, because

 7     at that time there was a lot of media attention, and the president

 8     designated Mr. Kalinic to coordinate with the UNHCR, and that's how this

 9     came about.

10        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I'll go back to the government's operative plan.

11     Could you please look at 41A.  Look at the document.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think it's 1D63.  I think it's

13     already an exhibit.

14        Q.   Can you see what this is about?  Within the scope of the tasks

15     taken by the ministry -- undertaken by the ministry and documenting war

16     crimes, the minister, along with what you see here on page 1, forwarded

17     to all the centres --

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to page 2, please.

19        Q.   -- questionnaire.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The next page.  It's a document

21     with this document.

22        Q.   Do you see this questionnaire?

23        A.   I see it.

24        Q.   I'll draw your attention to some questions in this questionnaire.

25     So it deals with data on victims, and in item 5 you can see that the

Page 2488

 1     document is not selective as regards to the ethnicity of the victim.  It

 2     refers to all victims.  Is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, all ethnicities.

 4        Q.   You said that that was how the government dealt with the problem;

 5     is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Mr. Djeric, since we're on the topic of these centres for the

 8     custody of persons, I would now like to open minutes from a government

 9     session which you have under 43 in your binder.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And this is Exhibit --

11     65 ter 1188.

12        Q.   Have you found it, 43?  Is that it?  Let's see if we have the

13     real -- the proper document here.

14             This is a session of the 10th of June, 1992.  In the Serbian

15     version, on page 2, if you would be kind enough.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's on page 3 of the English

17     version, at the top.

18        Q.   And do you see "Current issues."  Open questions.  There is a

19     conclusion that the Ministry of Justice should prepare a report on the

20     detained persons where the treatment of the civilian population,

21     prisoners of war, accommodation, food, and so on, would be treated as a

22     separate topic.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And that information would be reviewed by you, the government,

25     and then by the Presidency?

Page 2489

 1        A.   Yes, that's the conclusion.

 2        Q.   And it's clear in terms of the jurisdiction as well, would you

 3     agree?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Very well.  This problem, isn't it right, was tackled by the

 6     government, also by forming a commission to tour the collection centres

 7     and other facilities in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 8     Do you know about that?

 9        A.   Yes.  That was the practice, the practice for the ministries that

10     were responsible to take care of the collection centres and so on and so

11     forth, and as needed, the government would form a commission.  I

12     remember --

13        Q.   Oh, that is document -- I apologise.  Is that 45 in your binder?

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And it's 65 ter 210.  I apologise

15     to the registry.

16        Q.   With this decision a commission was formed to tour the collection

17     centres, and its task was to submit a report to the government as can be

18     seen in item 3.  And that is 45 in your binder.  Have you found it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   This decision?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Have you found it?  All right.  Do you remember this document?

23        A.   Yes, I do remember it.  I think that the commission, and there

24     were even commissions -- actually, I remember the commission.  Not

25     everything, but I know that Slobodan Aviljas was in that commission.

Page 2490

 1        Q.   Did it do its job, and did they do a report for you?

 2        A.   The commission made a report which was --

 3        Q.   Just be patient.  Just be patient, because it's under a different

 4     number.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 215.  Can we have that

 6     opened, please.

 7        A.   Here's the report, and I think that it has not been completed.  I

 8     think there is a page missing, the signature page.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Possibly.  215.  Let me have a look.  Let's go to the bottom of

11     the screen to see if that is that.  Let's see the signature.  Let's see

12     what the last page is.  I am interested in paragraph 4.  All right.

13     Evidently -- I mean, it's obvious there are no signatures, but that is

14     that report; isn't that right?

15        A.   Yes, but the practice was that the commission member submitting

16     the report would put their signatures.

17        Q.   All right.  All right.  Well, this page that we have on the

18     screen here, and the paragraph marked 4 where it says that the Ministry

19     of Defence and the Ministry of the Interior shall take measures to ensure

20     that all the above facilities are handed over to the army and the Serbian

21     Republic.  Do you remember that conclusion?

22             If you don't, you can just say that you don't.

23        A.   I mean, this was probably the conclusion that was reached, but

24     I'm a little bit confused because there is no page, you know.

25        Q.   All right.  We will try to find this page.  Obviously it wasn't

Page 2491

 1     published, but I think it exists.  We will find it.

 2             Mr. Djeric --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- I'm now going to just go through some of those facilities if

 5     we have time so that tomorrow we don't have to deal with this issue so

 6     much.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now open document --

 8        Q.   And in your binder that is document 47, Mr. Djeric.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If we can have 65 ter opened,

10     1463.

11        Q.   All right.  And do you see what this is about?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You know what the camp in Vlasenica was called.  Can you please

14     tell us what the camp in Vlasenica was called?  If you don't know --

15        A.   I can't remember now.

16        Q.   We can see here that it is an exclusively military camp; is that

17     right?

18        A.   Yes, it was formed by the military and the military was in charge

19     of it.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, that is just enough for us to be able to

21     conclude that.  I like to move to the next document that is document 48

22     in your set of documents.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]  And that is 65 ter 381 for us.

24        Q.   Have you opened it?

25        A.   381.

Page 2492

 1        Q.   At the bottom you can see 48.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is it -- Mr. Djeric, the previous one it says that it's not in

 4     the transcript, who was in charge of that camp the one in Vlasenica?

 5     Just repeat it, I'm not going to suggest anything to you.

 6        A.   I can see from here from the order that it was the army, that the

 7     army, the military formed that camp.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Very well.  Now, we will go back to, which is yours,

 9     48.  So we have a centre just like that here in Hadzici; is that correct?

10     Do you see that is document 48, and the Ministry of Justice is dealing

11     with it, all right?  Well, yes, I'm being told now that I'm going too

12     fast again.

13             Thus this centre in Hadzici is under the jurisdiction of the

14     Ministry of Justice, your minister, and he is asking for these persons to

15     be transferred to the penitentiary in Butmir.  Do you know anything about

16     that transfer?

17        A.   No, I don't know anything, so I don't know what the Ministry of

18     Justice was doing.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, you know, I'm really sorry --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             MS. KORNER:  I'm going to go on repeating this.  This is not a

22     proper exercise.  Counsel giving evidence, reading documents, and the

23     witness saying don't know anything about it for the majority.  It's just

24     not the way of dealing with evidence.  And, Your Honour, if I hear

25     there's an hour and a half more of this tomorrow, Your Honour, I repeat

Page 2493

 1     my objection.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can provide

 3     reasons.  I am trying with the witness to determine what the

 4     responsibility was for these facilities through documents.  I'm not

 5     testifying.  I'm simply showing the document and then putting a question

 6     on the basis of the document.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, just look at the question.  "Do you

 8     know anything about that transfer?"

 9             "No, I don't know anything, so I don't know what the Ministry of

10     Justice was doing."

11             And that's been virtually the same answer for every single

12     document with a couple of exceptions.  If there was some proper informed

13     choice being made and only documents about which the witness can speak to

14     were being put, then I wouldn't be raising this objection, but this

15     really is an appalling waste of everybody's time.  Including, I may say,

16     Mr. Djeric's.

17             JUDGE HALL:  In any event, Mr. Cvijetic, while you consider again

18     these issues you would recall with your colleague Mr. Pantelic asked for

19     five minutes before we rise today, so perhaps this would be a convenient

20     point at which we should take a break.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Okay.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Djeric, your testimony continues, and again I

23     caution you, as I have at each adjournment, not to discuss the case with

24     counsel from either side or -- not to speak with counsel or discuss the

25     case with anyone outside the court.  So you're excused to return to this

Page 2494

 1     Chamber at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I know you'd prefer this to be done by

 5     agreement, but it's not going to be done by agreement, and unless you do

 6     make a ruling, it's quite plain that Mr. Cvijetic is going to carry on

 7     doing just what he's been doing, so I just leave that with you overnight.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, I will allow myself overnight to decide

 9     how to deal with this.

10             Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you so much, Your Honour, for understanding.

12     Just one technical issue I would like to raise.  We are, as far as I'm

13     informed we are sitting on Friday in the afternoon from 2.15 until 7.00.

14     At the same time I checked the availability of the courtrooms and

15     apparently there is a place at the same courtroom, Courtroom I in the

16     morning.  So I kindly ask you to consider -- I was speaking with my

17     learned friends from the Prosecution and other members if we could maybe

18     move our session from afternoon Friday to morning Friday just without

19     any -- any --

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do you have a particular problem with Friday

21     afternoon, Mr. Pantelic?

22             MR. PANTELIC:  No, no, we don't have, but simply in terms of our

23     organisation of our teams and some -- some plans that we have to -- to

24     work.  I mean, it's completely up to the Trial Chamber.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I fully understand, you know.

Page 2495

 1             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  This is a kind of

 2     telepathy.  So I kindly ask our friends from the registry and the other

 3     services to see if we can do something on that matter.

 4             And I would like also to address Trial Chamber with regard to the

 5     other issue, but I would prefer to go in private session, please, if it's

 6     possible.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2496

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day

 6                           of November, 2009, at 2.15 p.m.