Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2497

 1                           Tuesday, 3 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Zupljanin not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 7     IT-08-91-T.  The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon, may we have the appearances, please.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

10     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Mr. Cvijetic,

12     Slobodan Cvijetic, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan and Slobodan Zecevic appearing

13     for Stanisic Defence today.  Thank you.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

15     Defence although he's not present in the courtroom, Igor Pantelic.  And

16     welcome back, Judge Harhoff, to our proceedings.

17             JUDGE HALL:  When we adjourned yesterday evening, I indicated

18     that we would give some thought over night to the last objection which

19     Ms. Korner for the Prosecution formally made, and before we proceed with

20     the witness, as promised, I will attempt to articulate what the -- what

21     our view is on that objection.  During the course of yesterday's

22     proceedings from the several versions of that objection because

23     Ms. Korner's last objection was the last expression of a series of

24     objections that she had been taking to the -- certain questions which

25     Mr. Cvijetic was putting to the witness Djeric in cross-examination in

Page 2498

 1     terms of the relevance and of course admissibility of certain

 2     documentation, which he was putting to the witness on which he was

 3     seeking the witness's comment.  And from the comments that I myself would

 4     have made, it would have been apparent that I found some sympathy with

 5     the objections raised by Ms. Korner without formally ruling on the matter

 6     and the comments that I would have made would have been to telegraph to

 7     Mr. Cvijetic how he should proceed in this matter.

 8             On reflection, I think that the -- that the -- we would formally

 9     overrule the objection as articulated because notwithstanding, as I've

10     indicated earlier, that -- and this is probably because, like Ms. Korner,

11     I come from a background of a system whereby the way evidence and whatnot

12     is approached may be somewhat different from that of Mr. Cvijetic, and

13     more particularly from the Tribunal which, as has been stated before, on

14     more than one occasion the course of these hearings, the Tribunal of

15     course has its own -- has evolved its own system, which is neither common

16     law nor civil law.  But the thrust of Mr. Cvijetic's explanation, as I

17     understand it, is that he is attempting to suggest to the witness and

18     seek his comments, that is the witness's comments, on a view of events

19     which is contrary to what the Prosecution is maintaining, mainly that

20     throughout the witness's relationship with the accused Stanisic, that the

21     witness was, to use a common expression, out of the loop, as it were.

22     And as Mr. Cvijetic has explained, that the case that he is attempting to

23     put is that the witness Djeric was not as disconnected as the Prosecution

24     in its case is seeking to make out.  And to that extent, it is our view

25     that he should be permitted to put that -- to put that case by way of

Page 2499

 1     suggestion to the witness.

 2             The caution, of course, that we would give to counsel for the

 3     Defence is that the rules at the end of the day in terms of the

 4     admissibility and based on relevance of these documents would apply.  So

 5     it is -- in putting that case, he should bear in mind that no purpose

 6     would be served by seeking to build that on the basis of documents which

 7     would not be admissible in any event.

 8             The -- I trust that the -- my attempts at an explanation as to

 9     why we would permit Mr. Cvijetic to proceed in the manner that he is

10     proceeding towards his conclusion as his time is running out is clear.

11     Thank you.  We'll have the witness back in.

12             MS. KORNER:  While the witness is coming in.  Can I just make it

13     clear, I don't suggest that any of the documents that are shown will be

14     inadmissible at some stage or another, indeed some are already in.  What

15     I should make absolutely clear is my objection is the way that they were

16     being put to this witness and the fact that counsel is effectively giving

17     evidence himself and that's the real gravamen of my objection.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon, Mr. Djeric, I remind you you are

20     still under oath.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  I know.

22                           WITNESS:  BRANKO DJERIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:  [Continued]

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one technical

Page 2500

 1     problem that we need to clarify.  The binder that I gave to Mr. Djeric, I

 2     don't have it.  It's been left somewhere here.  Is that it?  Okay.

 3     Wonderful.

 4        Q.   Mr. Djeric, good afternoon.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Well, we can start with document, you have it in your binder

 7     under 49, and for the courtroom this is Exhibit 65 ter 932.  All right.

 8     We have it in both versions.  Mr. Djeric?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   This is the minutes from the 25th session of the Presidency of

11     the Serbian Republic.  Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And do you see that among others you also attended that, do you

14     see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Since you did attend --

17             MR. CVIJETIC:  Can we please now go down in the BH version to the

18     bottom of the minutes, the bottom of the minutes, first page, paragraph 6

19     from the bottom.

20        Q.   Mr. Djeric, in the Serbian version it begins at the end of the

21     page.  All right.  And it says there that special attention was given to

22     questions of [indiscernible] and ensuring a better information system and

23     it was concluded that in future all visitors to the existing and

24     registered prison must give notice of their visits formally and in time

25     and so on.  Do you perhaps remember the agenda and this item on the

Page 2501

 1     agenda that was discussed?

 2        A.   Yes, I remember it.  I remember it well.  The matters that had to

 3     do with this flower.

 4        Q.   Well, can you read the passage that has to do with the

 5     international Red Cross.  All right, you can comment on it now.

 6        A.   Yes, I remember this agenda and what was discussed was the supply

 7     of electricity, and it was said that there were problems and we said that

 8     it was not permissible to manipulate and blackmail anyone in terms of the

 9     electricity.  But we also had problems with electricity.

10        Q.   Mr. Djeric, what I'm interested is only if you remember with

11     anything with these announced visits.  Do you remember if anybody was

12     denied a visit because they did not announce that in advance?  Just

13     slowly, just slowly.  You must make a break because the interpreters

14     cannot keep up.

15             So do you remember that?

16        A.   I don't remember the particulars.  I don't remember.  It's

17     possible that there was some problems in relation to that matter, so it

18     was placed on the agenda, but I don't remember, and I know that what was

19     agreed was to open the place up to visits, that nobody could forbid

20     visits, and in that regard from what I can recall certain ministers were

21     charged with keeping an eye on this more.

22        Q.   All right.  We'll stop there.  I'm going to try to remind you

23     that from the command of the Krajina Corps command refused an application

24     for a visit by Mr. Mazovjtski.  Do you remember that case, only because

25     he did not announce his visit in advance?

Page 2502

 1        A.   Mr. Mazovjtski was a high-ranking diplomat.  I remember him, and

 2     I remember the time that he was performing these duties, and I think that

 3     there was some problems between Mazovjtski and the military.

 4        Q.   All right.  This is what I wanted know in this part so you know

 5     about that problem because it was noted, if you remember, that he did

 6     come to a private visit after all, not an official visit and that is why

 7     the army stopped him or did not permit him to visit.  Do you have

 8     anything else to say about that, can you confirm that?

 9        A.   I cannot confirm that.  I don't know whether it was a private or

10     an official visit.  I think -- I don't know.  I don't know, but I do know

11     that he was there and that there was some problems with this corps.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you, we will now just go back to the part that

13     has to do with the international Red Cross.  It was announced that the

14     representatives of the international Red Cross should be permitted to

15     enter the camp; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   All right.  We are going to finish with this document.  And in

18     the context of this conclusion by the Presidency, I would like now to

19     show you document 1D12.  It's already an exhibit.  I apologise.  In your

20     binder that is number 50.  I always forget to tell you that.  Yes.  Can

21     you please look at the document and then when you are finished, I'm going

22     to ask you.  Have you looked at it a little bit?  All right.  Do you

23     agree with me that this is the practical implementation of the conclusion

24     by the Presidency because the command of the 1st Krajina Corps permitted

25     the entrance of journalists and international representatives, so the

Page 2503

 1     position of the Presidency was complied with; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can we agree that this camp was a military camp?

 4        A.   The military at the time was in charge of these centres.

 5        Q.   All right.  Mr. Djeric, I have finished my questions on this

 6     topic.  And I think I still have to cover one topic from this block.  I

 7     think that we did not deal with the issue of paramilitary formations.  In

 8     your testimony in the Krajisnik case you mentioned that problem, and I do

 9     have the minutes from the Presidency of Republika Srpska when it was

10     dealing with this matter.  I think the government also dealt with the

11     problem.

12        A.   The government did not deal with this problem because this was

13     not in our domain of work.  And I did not deal with that matter.  I

14     didn't make any agreements or contract any paramilitary formations.  I

15     did not finances them --

16        Q.   Just a moment, just a moment, can you please wait, wait.  I think

17     that Judge Harhoff at one point told you that you are not accused in this

18     case.  Just one moment, please, be patient, be patient.  Please be

19     patient, just wait.  Be patient.  May I be allowed to speak?

20        A.   It go ahead.

21        Q.   I'm asking you and you are answering question.  Judge Harhoff

22     told you that you're not supposed to feel like that and there's no need

23     to defend yourself from my questions.  I didn't say that you armed them,

24     that you invited them, summoned them.  You have to wait for my question,

25     please wait for my question.  Now, are we clear on that?  In your

Page 2504

 1     testimony in the Krajisnik case you mentioned the existence of a major

 2     paramilitary formation, the Yellow Wasps and you said that you knew of

 3     their existence; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, I did hear of them, that is correct.

 5        Q.   Since you attended the sessions do you know whether the

 6     Presidency dealt with the matter of paramilitary formations?  Do you

 7     know?

 8        A.   Well, this was referred to.  It was a problem with the president

 9     and the military.  The army had problems with these paramilitary

10     formations, particularly on the border with Serbia.  I do remember that.

11     You are asking me, I cannot really specifically tell you in what sense, I

12     mean.

13        Q.   All right.  You will agree with me then that the Presidency would

14     be able to receive information about the existence of paramilitary

15     formations from the military organs along that particular line of

16     professional chain of command?

17        A.   Well, they could have received information along the civilian

18     line as well, because the paramilitary formations were part of the extra

19     military order.

20        Q.   All right.  I'm going to ask you --

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Excuse me.  Mr. Djeric, what do you mean by the

22     extra military order?  What was that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, I mean, since we are

24     talking about intelligence work, I'm not really well versed in that, but

25     if the paramilitary formations were in a conflict of interest with the

Page 2505

 1     interests of the military and their military life and so on, then the

 2     Presidency could have been informed about it along the military line, but

 3     paramilitary formations are something that -- how can I put it, are

 4     outside of the institutions.  These are not regulated, regular military

 5     formations, so they could have created problems outside of the military

 6     sector.  How can I put it, outside of their range of activities or where

 7     they were positioned, for example, around the borders, around the

 8     transports, convoys.  So they created certain problems in that respect so

 9     that information could have arrived also in another way, not only via the

10     military structures.  This is what I ...

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Djeric, at some point, you may do it now or

12     later, but at some point you have to tell us how it was with these

13     paramilitary structures and what the problems were.  You need not do it

14     now and I will give the floor back to Counsel Cvijetic, but I need you to

15     tell the Court at one point just what the problems were with these

16     military -- paramilitary formations and how you dealt with it.  But in

17     order not to waste the counsel's time, I will give the floor back to him.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can do it now.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone please for the counsel.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I asked for this 65 ter document

21     192 to be put.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but I don't want to owe

23     an answer to His Honour, so I am prepared to reply about the paramilitary

24     formations right away.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will ask you, I will ask you,

Page 2506

 1     but let us look at the document.

 2        Q.   This is a report.  It says "Army Main Staff."  And it's a report

 3     on the paramilitary formations in the territory of Republika Srpska.  Do

 4     you see that, that it's at the heading of the document?  This is your

 5     document 53, I apologise.  Are you able to find it, 53?  Have you found

 6     it?  All right.

 7             On the first page, the military intelligence service provides a

 8     kind of characteristic of the paramilitary formations, what are their

 9     names, the motives, and so on and so forth, and it says the motive for

10     the vast majority of the paramilitaries is looting and committing murders

11     and all sorts of things and so on and so forth.  The reason why I wanted

12     to open this document is on page 3 -- we are going to find this in the

13     English version, what the number is.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's on page 3 in the Serbian

15     version.  And also page 3 in the English version.

16        Q.   Have you found it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Well, I'm interested in this statistical data present.  In

19     passage 2, in paragraph 2, which is, I think at the very beginning of the

20     English version.  Let me just see where the statistical part is.  It says

21     that there are about 60 paramilitary units which were registered between

22     4- and 5.000 people in total, and the ones they consider to be the most

23     important are listed here.  In the area of Zvornik these are the Yellow

24     Wasps, 170 men, as it says here.

25             MR. CVIJETIC:  [Interpretation] And the next large group that the

Page 2507

 1     army paid attention to is mentioned on page 5 of the Serbian version, and

 2     in the English version it's the second paragraph on page 5.

 3        Q.   In your version it's the fourth or fifth paragraph, do you see?

 4     Rather large group has been registered on the territory of Teslic

 5     municipality.  By showing you this, I simply wanted to let you know what

 6     kind of units these were and what their strength was.  And as you

 7     yourself said that you knew about these Yellow Wasps.  Through the next

 8     several documents I will show -- I will deal with the question of how

 9     these two units ended up.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So could we now have 1D00-5403.

11     Just let me see.  And open page 8 in the BH version.  It's page 9 in

12     English.  Could you scroll down a little bit, please.  And page 9 in

13     English.

14        Q.   This is just the beginning, we'll have to scroll down slowly on

15     these pages.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, tell us what this document is.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] This is a criminal report

18     concerning the arrest and prosecution of this large Teslic unit by the

19     Banja Luka public security service, the Teslic public security station,

20     and I want to show the witness what number of persons were arrested, and

21     we can see that right away.  And there is a description of the crimes

22     they are charged with.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, for your assistance it's the Mice.

24     It's the Mice group.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I was going to ask the witness

Page 2508

 1     whether he knew if these were the Mice but all right now you've said it.

 2     In the English version can you scroll down so that the other names can be

 3     seen.  Only the first accused is written on this part.

 4             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Excuse me, I don't know what

 5     document this is, I can't follow.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's document 54.  I do apologise,

 7     I -- again I forgot to tell you what number it is in your binder.

 8        Q.   So look at page 8 now that you've found it.  You'll come to the

 9     criminal report if you look through the document.  There is it, yes.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And in English could we scroll

11     down, please.  Yes, yes.  And just keep scrolling down, keep scrolling

12     down, please, so that you can see how many men were arrested and how many

13     witnesses and victims were interviewed.  Yes, and please just keep going

14     in the English version.  So, yes.  So let's go on to the next page and

15     then the next.

16        Q.   All right.  If you look at the list of exhibits, you'll find

17     there are 160.

18             MS. KORNER:  While that's happening can I correct the LiveNote,

19     it's page 13 line 21 where I speak, Mice is M-i-c-e.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now, we have to go to page 82 in

21     the English and 54 in B/C/S, so we have the page in English.  Yes, now we

22     have it in B/C/S as well.  And now please scroll down in both versions.

23        Q.   Have you found 54, page 54, Professor?  The heading is "Report."

24     You can see it on the screen.  This is a list of witness statements made

25     by witnesses of non-Serb ethnicity?

Page 2509

 1             MS. KORNER:  I'm really sorry to interrupt this again but this is

 2     now becoming a speech.  There is going to be a multitude of witnesses who

 3     can deal and who are going to deal with this particular group and what

 4     happened in Teslic.  It was a slightly unique situation.  Now, before we

 5     go on with this exercise, I think -- I do really think that Mr. Djeric

 6     should be asked whether he knows anything about the circumstances of this

 7     group or this incident, and if he doesn't, this should be an end of it.

 8     It's not that we are trying to stop this evidence going in, it will be

 9     dealt with.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can tell you what

11     the purpose of this exercise is.  As the witness is evaluating the work

12     of the Ministry of the Interior, I wish to show him the scope and the

13     scale of actions undertaken by the ministry in order to eliminate

14     paramilitary formations.  So I'm not going to comment on the content of

15     the document with the witness since evidently he is not in a position to

16     discuss it, but I just want to demonstrate that in order to deal with a

17     case of this kind, what it takes to open an investigation.

18             JUDGE HALL:  What is the question?

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Djeric, did you know about the activities of the Ministry of

21     the Interior to eliminate such groups?

22        A.   I did.  Work was done on that but as regards this group

23     specifically, I didn't know anything about that.

24        Q.   Did you know anything about the attempts to eliminate the Yellow

25     Wasps?

Page 2510

 1        A.   Well, I know that something was done because the Yellow Wasps

 2     were active in the area towards Serbia, around the river Drina, and there

 3     were frequent problems with that group.

 4        Q.   Do you know that the Ministry of the Interior in cooperation with

 5     the military police eliminated this large group also?

 6             JUDGE HALL:  That is a type of question that Ms. Korner -- to

 7     which Ms. Korner was objecting.  That last one was not a proper question,

 8     Mr. Cvijetic.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness knows the facts, Your

10     Honour.  He knows that the group was broken up.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Well, then let the witness give the evidence.  Not

12     you.  Ask him a question and we will hear his answer.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right.

14        Q.   Do you know how these proceedings ended?

15        A.   What proceedings are you referring to?

16        Q.   Against the Yellow Wasps.

17        A.   I know that this group was broken up.  I know that.  Quite simply

18     there were problems at the border around Zvornik.  For instance, I recall

19     that they even pulled a minister out of a car and ordered him to lie down

20     and graze grass.  Those Yellow Wasps did that.  And that's how I received

21     this information.

22        Q.   Do you know that they committed war crimes on the territory of

23     Zvornik municipality?

24        A.   Well, the information that reached the government had more to do

25     with obstructing traffic, economic activities, and so on.

Page 2511

 1        Q.   Will you believe me if I say that in cooperation with the

 2     Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska and the Ministry of the

 3     Interior of the Republic of Serbia, persons were prosecuted for war

 4     crimes committed on the territory of Zvornik municipality?  Do you know

 5     about that?

 6        A.   I don't because these are military and paramilitary units that

 7     did not belong to me.  They belonged to the government and the president,

 8     so he dealt with them.  So I don't have so much information of that kind.

 9        Q.   Well, my question was, do you believe me when I say that this is

10     true, or would you agree?

11        A.   Well, everything can be proved.

12        Q.   Now that you have mentioned the Presidency, you were present so I

13     have to show you the document.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 3033.  It's 64 in your

15     binder, Professor.

16        Q.   It's 3033.  Have you found it?  64.  It's a session of the

17     Presidency.  This document refers to a session of the Presidency of

18     Republika Srpska held on the 28th of September 1992, and you were among

19     those attending; am I right?  Please take a look.

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   And the first item on the agenda was engagement of volunteers in

22     the defence of Republika Srpska.  Do you remember that item of the

23     agenda?

24        A.   I remember that these volunteers were engaged because they were

25     sought.

Page 2512

 1        Q.   Please look at item 1 where it says that all volunteers will be

 2     put under the single command of the Army of Republika Srpska; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that was the principle.  They couldn't act on their own

 5     initiative of their own free will.  They had to be under the command of

 6     the army.

 7        Q.   It also says that the Presidency stressed that the ban on the

 8     establishment and activity of paramilitary units was still in force; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you have occasion to attend the session of the Assembly when

12     this problem was being discussed?

13        A.   I don't know.  I suppose I was.  What Assembly do you mean?  I

14     don't know.

15        Q.   Well, it's not an ordinary Assembly.  It was the Assembly where

16     your resignation was accepted when the government fell, on the 24th of

17     November 1992.  You were present then, weren't you?

18        A.   Yes, I was.

19        Q.   Let me jog your memory.  It's document 65 in your binder,

20     Professor, and it's 65 ter 933.  It's 65 ter 933.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version we should be

22     on page 18.  And in the English version - let me just find it.  It's on

23     page 23 in English, the speech of Mrs. Biljana Plavsic.

24        Q.   Have you read Mrs. Plavsic's contribution to the discussion?

25     Have you found page 18?  Please find it.  And Mrs. Plavsic's contribution

Page 2513

 1     to the discussion begins at the bottom of the page.  Well, now you've

 2     found it.  Please read what Mrs. Plavsic said.

 3             MS. KORNER:  I was going to say, I read this part to him when I

 4     dealt with it.  He has already read it.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, there's no harm in him

 6     reading it once again.

 7        Q.   Have you read it?

 8        A.   What she says about paramilitaries, that she invited them -- yes,

 9     it says Mrs. Plavsic, but as I remember, Madam Prosecutor, it wasn't this

10     speech.  It was another one when Mrs. Plavsic was talking about

11     percentages of the territory and so on.  It's not this part.

12        Q.   Please read the part that I asked you to read.  And move on to

13     the next page.  Have you had a look?  You are talking about paramilitary

14     formations.  It's this passage in the middle where she lists them.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   This is Mrs. Plavsic's reaction to the activities of Mr. Mico

17     Stanisic breaking up these paramilitary formations, and even the term he

18     uses, paramilitary formations that is.  So what do you say to this

19     standpoint of Mrs. Plavsic?

20        A.   She often spoke like this.  This is her opinion.  Of course, I

21     did not agree with it.  I never approved such things being done.  That's

22     why I should have clarified about these paramilitary formations.

23        Q.   Just finish your answer.

24        A.   Well, people, including her, allowed themselves to go around

25     looking for some sort of paramilitary units and engaging them.  I did not

Page 2514

 1     approve of this nor did I consider that that was the way things should be

 2     done, but there were more people who held such opinions, that these were

 3     people fighting for the Serbian people, that they were not criminals and

 4     so on and so forth.

 5        Q.   Just a moment.

 6        A.   So her opinion was not something unusual.

 7        Q.   I agree with you that this is Mrs. Plavsic's personal opinion, or

 8     the opinion of some other deputy, but what might have concerned your

 9     minister who invested so much effort was that this was followed by

10     applause.  He was not applauded for eliminating this sort of group.  What

11     do you say to that?

12        A.   Well, these are people's perceptions.  The minister knew that his

13     task was to implement the government policy and the Presidency's policy.

14        Q.   But such a high-ranking body would be expected to provide its

15     support; am I right?

16        A.   Well, that's what political life is like, you know.  There are

17     always some who are for and some who are against.  People see things this

18     way or that way.

19        Q.   Well, Mr. --

20        A.   But this is an extremist opinion, the one held by Biljana

21     Plavsic.

22        Q.   We're finish with this document.  You can close the file.  I'll

23     just ask you one thing --

24             MS. KORNER:  Before do you that, can I just ask, you put to the

25     witness that this was Mrs. Plavsic's response to Mico Stanisic breaking

Page 2515

 1     up the paramilitary units.  Can I just ask where you get that from?  In

 2     Mico Stanisic's speech.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm drawing this conclusion from

 4     Mrs. Plavsic's speech where she says to Stanisic, you call them

 5     paramilitary formations.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, that's the objection I have.

 7     It's asserted by Mr. Cvijetic giving evidence that this is the reaction

 8     to Mico Stanisic breaking up the paramilitaries.  There's no such

 9     reference in his speech to which Mrs. Plavsic refers.  So, as I say, it

10     would be better if speeches were not made and simply questions were put.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't think you're right.  There

12     was a huge polemic at that Assembly between Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Stanisic,

13     Mr. Mandic, and Mr. Djeric, and inter alia they discussed the results of

14     the work of the ministry of the interior, the Prosecution of paramilitary

15     formations.  That was why this discussion was held and why Mrs. Plavsic

16     reacted.  If you read the whole of the minutes, that was the conclusion I

17     reached.  The witness may need not agree with me, but her discussion

18     speaks for itself, and it's what the witness said.

19        Q.   Mr. Djeric, do you know how many men the administration for the

20     prevention of crime at the Ministry of the Interior had?

21        A.   I don't.

22        Q.   I'll tell you that this administration which was in charge of

23     these large operations -- well, when one says administration, you have

24     the impression that this involves hundreds of inspectors and policemen.

25     Do you know how many were actually employed there?

Page 2516

 1        A.   I didn't understand you.

 2        Q.   How many people were employed in this administration?

 3        A.   I don't know.  We were working under very difficult conditions.

 4     The government was being set up in a meadow without the proper

 5     infrastructure, without any institutions, without appropriate staff.  It

 6     was something far removed from any modern understanding of what a

 7     ministry or a government should look like.  We didn't have large numbers

 8     of trained staff, civil servants who were able to deal with that kind of

 9     work.  But I can't answer your question how many people were employed.

10     I'm sure there were far fewer than the situation required, but we

11     couldn't find people.

12        Q.   I'll tell you that there are no more than five, believe it or

13     not.  Can you believe that this was done by only five people?

14        A.   I do believe you.  There were ministries that didn't have more

15     than five people working on them because everybody else had been

16     mobilised.

17        Q.   All right, Mr. Djeric.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Your Honours, 20 -- it's been corrected

19     right now.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Djeric, the time and you are not a witness where -- with whom

22     we can show all the things that the ministry did, and I claim that I

23     didn't even show you point 1 per cent of the results of the work of the

24     ministry for the Internal Affairs in persecuting -- in prosecuting the

25     perpetrators of the most serious crimes and sentencing them.  Do you

Page 2517

 1     agree that the results of the MUP were what I say they were?

 2        A.   Well, I didn't say that the ministry didn't work or that it

 3     didn't do a vast amount of work.  But I am going to say that I, as the

 4     president -- the prime minister, was not satisfied with the engagement of

 5     the ministry, or rather the minister, in terms of the implementation of

 6     the government policies.  I never said that the ministry wasn't working,

 7     but it's more of a question of how much more it could have done.

 8        Q.   All right.  Very well.  And that is precisely the next topic.  We

 9     don't need documents.  Mr. Djeric, you received the mandate to form the

10     mandate at the Assembly in March 1992, late March; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.  I'm sorry, but since I owe --

12        Q.   Well, just leave that.  I'm the one who is asking.  Is it correct

13     that this was in March 1992?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Then at the Assembly session, you received only two ministers,

16     you were given only two ministers; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Buha, the minister for foreign affairs and

19     the minister for the interior; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You said that - how shall I put it - the consolidation and the

22     staffing of the government lasted until July 1992; is that correct more

23     or less approximately?

24        A.   Yes, yes, it was a long period of time, but.

25        Q.   All right.  Then you said that you submitted your resignation.

Page 2518

 1     Now we are going to do a little bit something about the dates.  I know

 2     you don't like that.  Resignation, which you were expecting to be

 3     accepted at the Assembly in Prijedor which was held in October; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.  I was asked.

 6        Q.   Well, you replied.  You would agree with me that perhaps you were

 7     mistaken about the dates.  You said that this was on the 9th of October,

 8     and the Assembly was held on the 31st of October?

 9        A.   Well, as far as the dates are concerned, believe me, I didn't

10     have the opportunity to check the precise dates.  There was manipulation

11     in the newspapers with these dates so that I'm not sure, and that is why

12     I would rather stay with the events so the Prijedor Assembly, when I

13     submitted my resignation and signed it, because I was asked to have it

14     signed, so I signed it, so conditions were created all of them for it to

15     be accepted at that time.  But for certain reasons, this was not done.

16        Q.   All right.  Can I help you about those dates and even I'm not so

17     good with dates.  Is there a possibility that on the 9th, you wrote your

18     resignation which should have been placed before the Assembly on the

19     31st?

20        A.   Well, there are a lot of unclear things for me there still and

21     I'm even thinking that perhaps this was in late September, but I cannot

22     simply -- the best way to establish the precise date is to establish the

23     exact time of the dates.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There's a lot of

25     background noise.  We are finding it difficult to hear the witness.

Page 2519

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I signed the resignation and

 2     then in the Zvornik Assembly, this is the only thing that I can state

 3     with certainty.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I'm going to tell you what the reason is.  My reason is not the

 6     wish to confuse you with the dates.  I would like to calculate the

 7     effective time from the time that the government was operating in its

 8     full composition, so July, August, September.  We can take that.  Is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You did not conceal your resignation from your ministers, if I'm

12     not mistaken, you submitted it publicly, did you not?

13        A.   Yes, I wrote it, submitted it, I signed it, and I was actually

14     waiting for the first Assembly session in order to be able to submit it.

15        Q.   I'm going to repeat the time for the transcript.  This is June,

16     July, August, September, and October.  Five months we are talking about.

17     And you will know about the parliamentary principle that each government

18     should be given the famous 100 days to do something in order to be able

19     to evaluate its work.  You know about that rule, don't you?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Those 100 days in normal circumstances, and 100 days in the

22     conditions that you were working in could not be considered to be the

23     same?

24        A.   Yes, of course.

25        Q.   Mr. Djeric, when we look at the number of the meetings that were

Page 2520

 1     held, the agendas, the problems that you managed to solve in that period,

 2     the proposed laws and documents and other measures, it has to be said

 3     that the government was working despite of all the initial problems that

 4     both you and I talked about, do you agree with me?

 5        A.   Yes, I'm not disputing that it was working and that we are

 6     talking about vast tasks and big assignments.  A lot of work.  Every few

 7     days practically we were in session.  The government was permanently in

 8     session, permanently in session.

 9        Q.   Then you will agree with me that the successes of the government

10     were actually the successes of the ministries because the government in

11     itself does not exist as a body unless it is comprised of ministries; is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Well, I'm not disputing that.  But the president -- the prime

14     minister, the person that is heading the government also tries to achieve

15     the best possible results.

16        Q.   You will agree also that the problems that the government was

17     encountering, and we are talking about strong local power, the Serbian

18     Autonomous Regions, Crisis Staff, current wartime problems, refugees,

19     crime, that those problems were problems of the ministries as well; isn't

20     that right?

21        A.   Yes, it was a context and environment in which the government and

22     its ministries were working.

23        Q.   However, very early on you requested a reconstruction of the

24     government.  You said even at the Assembly that you sought that as early

25     as May 1992; is that correct?

Page 2521

 1        A.   I don't remember that, but I did sense certain problems in the

 2     government, in the functional and personnel sense, so I don't know if I

 3     did that in May, but -- this is July that we are talking about, August,

 4     and so on I think.

 5        Q.   All right.  I do have a reference.  I do have the minutes of the

 6     Assembly when you -- session when you submitted your resignation, and you

 7     literally said a long time ago in May, five months ago, I began to talk

 8     about this problem in the work of the government.

 9        A.   Yes.  The path was, first of all, to try to resolve the problems

10     within the government, then we referred to the political leadership and

11     this was then discussed there for several months, and then in the end it

12     had to be brought before the Assembly.

13        Q.   Mr. Djeric, who did you talk to about this problem that you were

14     asking about?

15        A.   Everyone was informed about it.  First of all, the ministers knew

16     about it, the government knew about it.  They knew that I was asking for

17     a reconstruction of the government primarily in relation to these two

18     ministries:  The Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of the Interior.

19     Although there were some others as well, other ministries but --

20        Q.   Very well.

21        A.   I was thinking about those two ministries, first of all, so the

22     government, the political leadership, all of them were informed about it

23     and this was constantly debated.  We were looking for a suitable moment.

24        Q.   All right.  All right.  Specifically the question was did you

25     specifically discuss this matter with Dr. Karadzic?

Page 2522

 1        A.   Yes.  With Karadzic.

 2        Q.   All right.  All right.  You have to say yes -- answer with a yes

 3     to my question because we need to move on.  We must move on.

 4             At that point in time when practically the government was not

 5     consolidated, it had not been placed under oath, you had no results but

 6     still you were seeking a reconstruction of the government.  What was the

 7     response of Dr. Karadzic?

 8        A.   His reply was that the ministers were working well, that this

 9     should not be done, and so on and so forth.  And he stood by these two

10     ministers.  That is the main thing that I would like to emphasise.

11        Q.   You would agree that in May, you didn't have the results of the

12     work of any of the ministries and that on the basis of the results you

13     were unable to evaluate somebody's work?

14        A.   May, that's something else.  I'm not talking about May.  I'm

15     talking about this time there, the later period.  In May, in May, what

16     was said was discussion in terms of looking for the adequate or

17     appropriate people.  It was a question of finding these people at the

18     location where the government was.  Finding the right people.

19        Q.   In the Krajisnik case, you said that you could not influence the

20     composition of the government and that in some way it was imposed on you,

21     you had to take these ministers from before, from the B&H and the

22     ministerial counsel and that you personally were not in a situation to

23     create the composition of the government; is that what you said?

24        A.   Yes, that is what I said in the Krajisnik case, and I'm saying

25     that today now.  The party was the one that put forward the cadres, not

Page 2523

 1     in the sense of providing alternatives.  It would always be one single

 2     solution, so I was not able to choose in that case.

 3        Q.   All right.  Can I ask you more questions?

 4        A.   Yes, go ahead.

 5        Q.   You were a member of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Who proposed you for that post?

 8        A.   The party too, yes.

 9        Q.   Which party?

10        A.   The SDS party.  Serbian Democratic Party.  It participated in the

11     government and they put me forward for that position.  I was on their

12     list.

13        Q.   Were you a member of the Serbian Democratic Party?

14        A.   No, I wasn't.

15        Q.   All right.  Just finish that answer.  You've answered me and

16     that's that.  Who proposed you for the ministerial council of Republika

17     Srpska?

18        A.   This was done by the party and the presiding of the council of

19     ministers at the time, Mr. Simovic.  He made that agreement with the

20     party president and --

21        Q.   All right, you've answered, now let us move on.

22             Who gave you the mandate to form a government, the government of

23     Republika Srpska?

24        A.   It was the president of the party.

25        Q.   Which party and which president?

Page 2524

 1        A.   Well, look --

 2        Q.   Well, go ahead, say it.

 3        A.   I'm talking about the Serbian Democratic Party.  The Serbian

 4     Democratic Party was the one and then on behalf of the party before the

 5     Assembly, and this was in Pale in March, I was put forward as a candidate

 6     by Biljana Plavsic.  From what I understood, she was the one who was

 7     heading the party's personnel commission.

 8        Q.   Okay.  You've answered.  Mr. Djeric, in all parliamentary systems

 9     when a party wins an election and when it has an absolute majority, it is

10     the one that puts forward the candidate to form the government; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And if it has a majority, absolute majority, it doesn't have to

14     put forward a coalition partner; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it logical that each prime minister designate takes care to

17     secure the support of the Assembly majority when he is putting forward

18     the composition of the government?

19        A.   Yes, it's logical.

20        Q.   So is it logical that you put forth -- forward such a composition

21     of the government because you were expecting to receive the support of

22     the party?

23        A.   Yes.  The support is given to me by the party because its

24     deputies are in the Assembly.

25        Q.   Well, this is what I'm talking about.  So you are careful to

Page 2525

 1     secure support?  You do take that into account?

 2        A.   Well, yes, I don't have any choice in that matter.  I'm not a

 3     party member, but I am on the list of that party, and I receive my cadres

 4     from that party.

 5        Q.   All right.  I'm going to read to you the names of some members of

 6     the government about whom you said that you would never have picked them

 7     had you been in a position to choose.  So Mico Stanisic, Momcilo Mandic,

 8     with the explanation that they -- and you said that here in the courtroom

 9     as well, were closer to the president than to you.  Is that the essence

10     of your objection to the two of them?

11        A.   Well, I said that I would never have considered the two of them

12     to be members of the government because of the functioning of the

13     government and functioning in the government, and what you are asking me

14     simply -- well, one needs to have in mind here that simply speaking we at

15     the time had a system --

16        Q.   Well -- I apologise but --

17             MS. KORNER:  Let him finish, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to answer?

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Yes, but in the cross-examination you have to answer me.  Just

21     tell me, well, this is the reason -- if that is the reason why they were

22     closer to the president than to you, this is what you said in the

23     courtroom.

24        A.   No, no, that was not the reason, you know.  It was not the main

25     reason.  They just ignored the government.  They ignored the government

Page 2526

 1     because they considered themselves to be the president's men.

 2        Q.   All right.  No, no, no, I have to stop him.  You replied, you

 3     replied to my question but in a different way, but please tell me, what

 4     did you find with Mr. Pejic, the deputy prime minister, what about him,

 5     why wouldn't you have taken him?

 6        A.   Because he tended to work more for his own benefit than to

 7     further the goals of the government, and secondly, Pejic also had health

 8     problems.  He was an invalid, although he did have the proper

 9     professional background.  He had been dealing with financial matters for

10     years, but because of his handicap had they asked me, he would never have

11     been nominated.

12        Q.   Why would you not want Subotic as the minister of defence in your

13     government?

14        A.   Because it was difficult for him to establish communication with

15     the military.  It simply did not function as a relationship, or rather,

16     not sufficiently.  It could have been done much better.

17        Q.   I'm also interested in the fact that you would never have worked

18     with Mr. Trbojevic who was never a party member.  What was wrong with

19     him?

20        A.   Trbojevic was a careerist.  He had careerist ambitions.

21        Q.   What you held against Mr. Kalinic was that he leaned more towards

22     the president?

23        A.   Yes, but it is more important to clarify things here, to explain

24     them.  We are talking about people, people who had a good understanding

25     of the system as it existed at the time.  It was a presidential system.

Page 2527

 1     The government was simply an appendage of the president and the

 2     Presidency, and they counted on being appointed by the party even if I

 3     resigned.  They knew what they were doing there, and they were simply

 4     gathering around the president.

 5        Q.   Yes, I do have to interrupt you now because my time is running

 6     out.  The minister of external affairs, Buha, you didn't like him either?

 7        A.   Well, I can't say I didn't like him.

 8        Q.   Well, what do you hold against him?

 9        A.   He did his job, he did it, but I'm simply bearing in mind the

10     fact that people simply didn't understand the function of the government

11     in a parliamentary democracy.  We said something and then they set out to

12     do something else.  It's very important to say this.  You are talking

13     about a time when I had already handed in my resignation.

14        Q.   Just be patient.  You mentioned three people:  Buha, Pejic, and

15     now Milojevic [phoen] have leanings towards Belgrade, and I would never

16     have taken them, did you say that?

17        A.   Well, they all had -- well, people acted in a way, the way I was

18     trying to reconstruct the government to make it more effective and so on.

19     People began to look for ways to turn things to their own advantage.

20        Q.   Well, you didn't like Ostojic either.  You said he was an

21     extremist and he was a minister of foreign affairs.

22        A.   Well, he proved to be an extremist, but you keep mentioning

23     things from the last session that was already at the finish line,

24     because, sir, counsel --

25        Q.   Just answer my question, please.  I do have to interrupt you.  In

Page 2528

 1     the case of Ostojic, was this the decisive reason when you said he was an

 2     extremist in your view?  You said that in the Krajisnik case, I'm just

 3     quoting your words.

 4        A.   Yes, he was an extremist, and if I had been able to constitute a

 5     new government, he would never have been a member of it because he was an

 6     extremist, and that's, I'm just speaking hypothetically.

 7        Q.   Now let's look at the ministerial departments.  Ministry of

 8     Justice, Ministry of the Interior, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, two

 9     deputy prime ministers, the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Defence,

10     all of them were key ministries.  So with whom did you achieve the

11     successes we spoke about?  For example, did the Minister of Forestry

12     really plant forests in Republika Srpska?

13        A.   Well, the government did do its job, but it could have done it

14     better.  Especially in the case of two ministries, and don't forget one

15     other thing --

16        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I'll move on and mention a specific ministry.

17     Wouldn't it be fair to say that the government achieved its greatest

18     successes in these key areas:  Security, defence, and probably justice?

19     I won't mention any more.  Wouldn't it be fair to say that?

20        A.   No, no, no.  That's not how it was.  Those were the two most

21     important, most necessary ministries, and I wanted to achieve more in

22     those areas.  That's why I asked for those changes.  These were key

23     ministries.

24        Q.   Very well.  We then now have to move on to the session when your

25     resignation was adopted.  Do you remember what you said at that session

Page 2529

 1     of the Assembly?

 2             JUDGE HALL:  If you are moving on to something new, perhaps we

 3     should take the break at this point.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Okay.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Twenty minutes.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Before I

12     begin, one brief apology to the professional services.  At the beginning

13     of the transcript it says, and I said that there was a technical problem

14     with the binder.  Actually, it was my problem.  I had forgotten the

15     binder and they had put it away, and so it was not a matter of the

16     problem being a problem of the technical service, but it was my own

17     problem.  So I would like to have that corrected in the transcript.

18     Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Djeric, we are now finding ourselves at the Assembly where

20     the resignation of the government was being discussed.  This is document,

21     if you would like to refresh your memory and open the document, it's

22     document 65 in your binder.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well, I have to explain that

24     in English it's probably page 15.  First of all, I have to give you the

25     document number.  It's 65 ter 933.  It will be three pages:  15, 18, 19.

Page 2530

 1     Those three pages are relevant, up until page 23.  So from page 15

 2     onwards and that's how we will follow it.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I think that in the Serbian version it begins on the

 4     10th page.  This is your address.

 5             Mr. Djeric, you will agree with me that the Assembly is a body in

 6     which all problems are discussed in the most democratic way; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   That was the opportunity for your ministers -- to tell your

10     ministers that you were not happy with what it is about their work that

11     you were not satisfied with; is that correct?  Is that correct,

12     Mr. Djeric?

13        A.   Yes, I --

14        Q.   No, no, no, no, I'm asking you.  Did you --

15        A.   I did say that.

16        Q.   The question is, did you use the opportunity in the Assembly and

17     tell each of the ministers to their face what you thought was not good

18     about their work directly?

19        A.   I did not tell people at the government sessions what was not

20     good and what they were supposed to change and so on and so forth.  I

21     don't want you to misunderstand.

22        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I have to stop you.  Did you use that at the Assembly

23     at such a place where really decisions are being made on the value of the

24     work of the entire government and each minister individually, yes or no?

25        A.   Simply I did not discuss certain ministers at the Assembly.  I

Page 2531

 1     mean, you understand ministers are member of the government and you have

 2     to understand that the government is a working entity.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djeric, if you didn't, and I see that you didn't, Mr. Mandic,

 4     Momcilo, minister of justice, and Mr. Stanisic are calling you out

 5     directly and they are saying -- stating their objections to your work and

 6     asking you directly to come out and tell them specifically what in the

 7     professional sense as ministers or their ministries you find fault with.

 8     Do you remember their addresses?

 9        A.   I don't remember their addresses, but they know very well this is

10     just a manoeuvre of theirs.  They know what my objections were, what the

11     objections of the government were on their account.  It wasn't just me as

12     the prime minister, but it was all the other ministers, they all knew

13     very well about the two of them.

14        Q.   All right.  All right.  A specific question.

15        A.   Well, this is a session where the resignation of the prime

16     minister was being accepted.

17        Q.   All right.  Listen to me now, please don't interrupt me.  That is

18     the session of the Assembly, and Mr. Mandic says that you never asked a

19     report from the ministries on their work.  Is that correct what Mr.

20     Mandic said?

21        A.   It is not correct because the government works by asking for

22     ministries to report back to it and the ministries react with their

23     reports.

24             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, the English says that "has anyone ever seen a

25     report about our work, whose fault is that whether Momcilo Mandic or

Page 2532

 1     Djeric?  It doesn't say, Mr. Cvijetic, what you've just para-phrased.  I

 2     think if you are going so put things you've ought to read from the

 3     original.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   My question specifically, my question is, did you ask for reports

 6     on the work on these two key ministries?

 7        A.   Well, how could I have not asked for them.  Yesterday we looked

 8     at some of them.  How would the reports have arrived had I not requested

 9     them?  The government works by periodically asking for reports from the

10     ministries about their work.

11        Q.   All right.  The essence of my question is, yesterday we looked at

12     the reports on the work of the Ministry of the Interior, and I did not

13     hear one single objection in the professional sense about the results of

14     the work of the ministry, and not in the courtroom either.  I'm going to

15     of move to the address -- I just apologise for one second.  I'm going to

16     move to the discussion of Mr. Stanisic.

17             Mr. Stanisic is remarking that his only -- that your only

18     argument at his expense is that he is allegedly Radovan's man.  That's

19     what it says in the report.  This is page 16 of the Serbian version and

20     we are going to do our best to find -- oh, yes, here it is.  This is page

21     21 or 22, somewhere there.

22        Q.   And -- page 21 towards the end.  And just let me finish my

23     question.  Mr. Stanisic says that that is no argument as far as he is

24     concerned, wasn't it then called for you to come out and bring out some

25     other arguments?

Page 2533

 1        A.   Well, no, that doesn't apply.  That is really making the case

 2     banal by Mr. Stanisic.  He is making light of it.  He's trying to find an

 3     excuse for himself and to get out of it.  I didn't have remarks or

 4     objections in terms of his work because he is the president's man, but

 5     because he was not implementing to a sufficient degree the policy of the

 6     government.  It was his problem that he was ignoring the government, that

 7     he was constantly spending time with the president.  That is his problem.

 8     I apologise.  Many of these things could have been done by the

 9     bureaucracy by the clerks of the ministry.

10        Q.   Well, all right, Mr. Djeric, you have responded now to this

11     objection.

12             MS. KORNER:  Please, Mr. Cvijetic, don't para-phrase.  Read the

13     exact words from the transcript and then identify them also please in

14     English.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version it's page

16     16 at the bottom, and now we will see, let us see page 21 at the bottom,

17     last paragraph, I'm going to read what it says so that we don't have the

18     case that --

19        Q.   "For that reason we insisted that somebody cannot, as they see

20     fit, say you are not good because I feel that you are Radovan's man.  As

21     far as I'm concerned, that is no argument."  Have I quoted correctly the

22     words?  Mr. Djeric, allow me to put the question to you now.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So I have summarised the discussions from the Assembly, and I

25     have had some substantial problems to present to you the results of the

Page 2534

 1     work of the Ministry of the Interior.  I was following your reactions

 2     when I was presenting you with this evidence, and I'm listening to you

 3     now.  I must note that your only argumentation that Mr. Stanisic was

 4     Radovan's man and that you have know other objection in the sense -- in

 5     terms of his professionality -- professionalism, quality, and the scope

 6     of work of such a large ministry that was part of your government; do you

 7     agree with me?

 8        A.   No, I don't agree.  I disagree completely.  Your questions and

 9     your arguments and so on and so forth in the spirit of -- are in the

10     spirit of your client.  What I want to say is --

11        Q.   Mr. Djeric, all right, all right, you've responded.  I'm

12     satisfied with the answer.  Mr. Djeric, Mr. Djeric --

13             MS. KORNER:  No, you cannot interrupt a witness's answer like

14     this because you don't like what he is going to say.  He must be allowed

15     to finish his answer.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Madam Korner and Your Honours, the

17     witness has answered my question.  I'm running the procedure, I'm putting

18     the questions, and I'm not going to remind Ms. Korner about the way she

19     questions witnesses, and I was never opposed to such a manner.  Stop,

20     stop, stop, so I'm telling my witness stop.  I received an answer.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you didn't get an answer.  I

22     had only just began to answer.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The specific answer was that you

24     disagree with me, and we don't have to agree; is that correct?

25        A.   But I wanted to answer you as well.  It's not only that I

Page 2535

 1     disagree.  Your Honours, in the minutes or in the report you have a place

 2     where it says -- where it is emphasised that this entire problem was made

 3     up by the prime minister and that the prime minister is rebelling against

 4     the president of the republic and that is why he is not tolerating these

 5     two ministers and so on and so forth.  This is not true, this is not

 6     true.  I knew very well what my position was and what the position of the

 7     president of the republic was.  Especially during a regime of one party.

 8     So this whole story is made up.  I exclusively had problems with those

 9     two ministers because they did not engage themselves sufficiently on the

10     implementation of the policies of the government.  Nothing more than

11     that.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now that you are talking about the president, did you yourself

14     say we have to put to him his testimony in the Krajisnik case because

15     it's been admitted into evidence, did you yourself say that you diverged

16     in concept from the president of the republic, that he wanted a strong

17     presidential system and you were against the government being

18     marginalised; is that where you diverged?

19        A.   Well, this was resolved by the constitution.  The position of the

20     government and the position of the president.  But we had different ideas

21     primarily as regards the effectiveness of government.  Because the

22     president, when these two ministries are concerned, in particular said

23     we'll deal with this later, but I wanted things to be dealt with.  I

24     wanted prosecutions to take place in compliance with the government

25     decisions.

Page 2536

 1        Q.   Well, what prosecutions did you want to take place?

 2        A.   Well, I wanted everything done in compliance with the conclusions

 3     of the government.  Because as you see we spoke about the security of

 4     persons and property, about crime.  Crime was the greatest evil in our

 5     society at that time.

 6        Q.   Very well.  When it comes to prosecutions --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  You will remember the caution, counsel and witness,

 8     about allowing a gap so the interpreters can keep up.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let me just check whether

10     everything is in the transcript.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, before you proceed, I would be

12     grateful if you would be kind enough to explain where you are going with

13     all of this?  For a long time we have been dealing with the issue of

14     whether or not this witness was satisfied with your client's work during

15     government time in 1992.  And whatever the reason is, as much as I can

16     figure out, this witness was not satisfied with Mr. Stanisic's

17     performance in the government.  And allegations have been made, I don't

18     know whether they are substantiated, allegations have been made that

19     apparently there was some rift between the government and the Presidency

20     and Stanisic apparently -- apparently I emphasise was on the side of

21     Karadzic.  Now how does this assist your case?  That's what I don't

22     understand.  This is why I'm asking where you are going with this.

23             MR. CVIJETIC:  [Interpretation] As the witness mentioned,

24     prosecutions I intend to put one more document in this line of

25     questioning, and I think it will answer your question.  I propose that we

Page 2537

 1     ask the witness to leave then I can answer your question.  We could

 2     discuss arguments and cases when the witness leaves.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm not interested in your answer.  I'm

 4     interested in how this witness can testify and contribute to the finding

 5     of the truth.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, that's the direction I'm

 7     going in, and I wish to put a document to the witness and ask him to

 8     comment on it.  Could the witness be shown 65 ter 179.

 9        Q.   It's 66, Mr. Djeric, in your binder.  The last document in your

10     binder.  Mr. Djeric, have you found it?

11        A.   Yes, I have.

12        Q.   Mr. Stanisic's letter sent to you personally and to the president

13     of the republic personally.  Do you see it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you see the contents of the letter?  Take a look.  As you see,

16     in this letter, Mr. Stanisic in the first part of the letter as a

17     professional, draws attention to the danger that war crimes might be

18     committed and not prosecuted.  He refers to international conventions and

19     claims that you personally have not sufficiently activated yourself in

20     dealing with these matters.  Yesterday I showed you Mr. Stanisic's order

21     form from the field, and here on page 2 you see he says regardless of who

22     the perpetrators are and what their ethnicity is.

23             I asked you, Mr. Djeric, yesterday or on Friday, who raised the

24     issue of war crimes in the government, the issue of documenting war

25     crimes, prosecuting war crimes, and you didn't answer my question.  You

Page 2538

 1     didn't want to answer it.

 2        A.   Well, the government put this on the agenda at my initiative as

 3     the prime minister.  I'm the one who was leading the government proposing

 4     agendas and so on and so forth.

 5        Q.   And was this letter -- what prompted you to put this item on the

 6     agenda?

 7        A.   No, this letter is a manoeuvre by Mr. Stanisic after pressure

 8     from me to replace these two ministers, in particular Minister Stanisic,

 9     so he went on the counter-offensive trying to have me replaced.  When

10     they saw that the president was on their side, they went on the offensive

11     against me and that's why he wrote this letter, and I was the one

12     actually who prompted the government to deal with violations of laws and

13     regulations and to prosecute all this.  You can see this from the

14     minutes.

15        Q.   Mr. Djeric, Mr. Stanisic did not stop at this letter.  I showed

16     you yesterday specific documents dealing with -- discovering the

17     perpetrators of war crimes and prosecuting them.  Do you remember when

18     and at what government session you initiated discussion of this issue?

19        A.   Well, I was the one proposing the agenda, so it was my initiative

20     that this issue be discussed.

21        Q.   Mr. Djeric, finally, wouldn't it be fair to answer my question by

22     saying that you accepted your minister's initiative in putting this item

23     on the agenda?

24        A.   No, that's not how it was.  I'm the one who implemented the

25     government policy and its programme and carried out our duties.  And it's

Page 2539

 1     highly impertinent to say to me that I was the one obstructing this.

 2     There are witnesses who can testify to who did what.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djeric, since you often use the term government, the

 4     government did this, the government did that, who was the government?

 5     Were you the government?

 6        A.   Well, it wasn't me.  It was the ministries.  It was the organ

 7     coordinating the ministries.

 8        Q.   And Mr. Stanisic with his minister, was he the government?

 9        A.   Well, he was a member of the government.

10        Q.   So the results of his work on this issue are successes of the

11     government, results of the government, but you cannot take the credit for

12     this yourself without saying that he contributed?

13        A.   Well, that's not in dispute.  But every president, or rather,

14     every prime minister wants to achieve better results.  And I --

15        Q.   I do apologise.  Mr. Djeric, I finished with these documents.  It

16     is my duty to take you through some documents of the government sessions

17     and Assembly sessions and the National Security Council.  I'm not duty

18     bound to explain the reasons for this to you, in order to evaluate the

19     possibility for the implementation of certain documents.  I think that we

20     owe an explanation to the Bench as to how the Republika Srpska got its

21     president.  You didn't answer that question, if you remember.

22        A.   What president?

23        Q.   The collective for Presidency and the president.  You said that

24     Radovan Karadzic was only a member of a party and that you don't know how

25     he came to perform that duty.

Page 2540

 1        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember, that is, when this Presidency

 2     was appointed.  I remember very well when he was elected at the Assembly.

 3        Q.   Mr. Djeric, you were the prime minister, you are a university

 4     professor.  I expected you to be aware of certain basic things from our

 5     constitution and that you will be able to tell the Bench.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the

 7     constitution of Republika Srpska, that's 65 ter 49.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, we may have, but can you inform us before we

 9     leave this document what is the date of the letter?

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  18th of July

11     1989 [as interpreted] on the last page.  It's not on the first page, it's

12     on the last page that the date is mentioned.  Yes, the 18th of July,

13     1992.  May I proceed?

14             Could we now have the constitution, please.  65 ter 49.  And

15     could we come to the end, the final provisions.  140.  Could you scroll

16     down until we come to 140.  Article 137.  Changes -- amendments, that is.

17        Q.   Mr. Djeric, Article 142, on the monitor.  It's on the monitor.  I

18     don't think you have this in hard copy.  Let's just see it in English.

19     40.

20             It says:

21             "The Constitution of the Republic may be amended by a

22     constitutional amendment or a constitutional law."

23             Do you know about this?

24        A.   Yes, I see it here.

25        Q.   Do you know that on the 28th of February, the Assembly adopted

Page 2541

 1     the constitutional law on the implementation of the constitution of the

 2     Serbian republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 3        A.   I don't remember that.

 4        Q.   Very well.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Then I would like to have this

 6     document shown you, 1D00-4266.  In the Serbian version it's further down.

 7     It's further down.  On the right-hand side there is a column where the

 8     law begins.  Over -- technically you can now move on to the next page.

 9     Article 4.  Excellent.  And now in the English version, can we have the

10     same article and then we can deal with this.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Djeric --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for counsel.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Djeric, please read Articles 4, 5, and 6.  These mention the

18     government.  In Article 4, the manner of election of the president of the

19     republic is provided for.  I wish to jog your memory, and that's in

20     Article 5, item 2:

21             "Until the election of the president of the republic, the

22     function of the president shall be carried out by the members of the

23     Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina..." and so on.

24        A.   No, it's not that I don't remember that.  I do remember that.

25     Those two members of the Presidency represent the president.

Page 2542

 1        Q.   Very well.

 2        A.   And they performed the office.

 3        Q.   And that's how continuity was maintained until the election of

 4     the Presidency, the collective Presidency.  And now we have this law on

 5     amendments to the constitution, and it's in the package, Your Honour,

 6     which has not been admitted into evidence yet, so I will just read out

 7     the provision which refers to changes in the way the president is

 8     elected.  This Article 5 that you read out was amended, and now it reads

 9     as follows:

10             "Until the election of the president of the republic, the office

11     of president will be carried out by a three-member Presidency elected by

12     the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina."

13             And then the next item is:

14             "The Presidency shall elect the president from the ranks of its

15     members."

16             Mr. Djeric, this amendment to the constitution was adopted on the

17     12th of May 1992 by the Assembly.  Ms. Korner showed you the minutes, and

18     I can show them too, from the Presidency session which you attended on

19     that day when Radovan Karadzic was unanimously elected president of the

20     Presidency.  You were there too?

21        A.   I don't remember that.

22        Q.   I find it hard to believe that.

23        A.   Well, I may have left for a moment, but I really don't remember

24     that.  I don't remember it.

25        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I can't but tell you, you attended the Assembly

Page 2543

 1     session presided over by Mr. Krajisnik.  When you were shown the minutes,

 2     you said they were false, that they were a pure forgery?

 3        A.   I don't understand.

 4        Q.   In the Krajisnik case when you testified, I'm not sure whether by

 5     Mr. Stewart or by the Prosecutor, but you were shown the minutes from the

 6     Presidency session not attended by Mr. Karadzic and Mrs. Plavsic, and you

 7     attended it, and you said that this was a forgery pure and simple; is

 8     that what you said?

 9        A.   I said that because I don't remember, I don't remember Krajisnik

10     presiding.  That's my argument.  It was either these two members who

11     presided or later on it was Radovan.  That's what I can remember.  Both

12     then and now.

13        Q.   It's page 27025 -- 095 --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Krajisnik case line 15.  Judge Orie put this to you.  And you

17     said to Judge Orie:

18             "That is a forgery pure and simple."

19        A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember that Krajisnik presided over

20     the Presidency.  I said it then, and I'm saying it now.

21        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I can't help telling you this --

22             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, you need then to look at what he said further

23     about this at page 27172 when he was cross-examined about that assertion.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't know if I have the next

25     page.  This is the only page I've brought with me.

Page 2544

 1        Q.   But can you explain what you meant?

 2        A.   I don't remember Krajisnik ever, ever presiding over a Presidency

 3     session.

 4        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I really am trying to preserve your credibility, but

 5     with respect to the government instructions put to you by Judge Orie, I

 6     have the page number and everything, you said that's a forgery too.  Page

 7     27108, line 18.

 8        A.   I don't know what you are referring to.

 9        Q.   The document I put to you first yesterday, government

10     instructions on the work of the Crisis Staffs.

11        A.   I explained to you that I -- there was a document, some sort of

12     instructions, and I sent this document to the Crisis Staffs because of my

13     own responsibility.  As I said, I said that I think Karadzic also signed

14     this document.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The page number was

16     10718.

17             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Mr. Cvijetic.  It's no good partially

18     quoting.  He was further asked questions about that at page -- of the

19     Krajisnik transcript page 27163, when he said that he didn't remember.

20     Not that it was a forgery.  You must, must make a note of all the

21     references in the transcript.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness

23     responded, and he explained what he meant when he said that it was

24     completely fabricated, and this is the problem.  You don't seem to

25     remember that much, Mr. Djeric.  That seems to be the case in my opinion.

Page 2545

 1             JUDGE HALL:  The point that counsel for the Prosecution was

 2     making is that you are putting to a witness a previous inconsistent

 3     statement but you are only putting a part of it because, as she says,

 4     later on in the transcript on which you are relying, he explains what he

 5     says, so in fairness to the witness and so that it makes sense to the

 6     Chamber, you have to put it in its entirety, and that's the second time

 7     she's had to make that intervention.

 8             So notwithstanding what the witness -- what answer you were able

 9     to elicit from the witness today, sometime after the Krajisnik trial the

10     proper context of the question would require you to put the full

11     quotation to the witness.  It's quite simple.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I accept your

13     intervention, of course.  I looked at the entire transcript and I also

14     looked -- listened to the audio records.  It's been admitted as an

15     exhibit.  You are going to listen to it and you are going to find the

16     place where the witness questions his own signature on the document.  So

17     this was part of the testimony -- or the record of his testimony

18     yesterday.

19        Q.   Witness, you objected to the attendance or lack of attendance at

20     the government sessions?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did the government adopt a decision that due to frequent sessions

23     and the commitments of the ministers they designate deputies or

24     representatives who would attend these meetings in their absence; do you

25     remember that?

Page 2546

 1        A.   Well, yes, there was that possibility.

 2        Q.   Please, please, not the possibility.  Is there a government

 3     decision on that?

 4        A.   It's possible that we had agreed to do that, and that is the

 5     practice.  Sometimes if the minister is unable to attend, then a deputy

 6     should attend.

 7        Q.   Was that logical because of a large number of sessions and the

 8     fact that the ministers had to do their job?

 9        A.   Well, it was not a consequence of it being logical because there

10     were too many sessions, but it was a consequence of perhaps too many

11     commitments that the ministers had.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All Right.  I'm going to show you

13     the minutes of a government session of the 22nd of July, 1992.  This is

14     the 41st session, and it's Exhibit 65 ter 929.  Page 2 in the Serbian and

15     perhaps it could be the case that it is also page 2 in the English.  Let

16     us just see because in the B/C/S on the second page it's at the end so

17     perhaps let's see if in the English it's also at the bottom of page 2.

18     Well, the B/C/S is good.  Now let us find the English, please.  Just take

19     it slowly.  All right.  Yes, that's it.

20        Q.   Mr. Djeric, do you see on the screen one of your ministers,

21     Momcilo Mandic makes the objection that there is no quorum at the

22     meeting, that the number of ministers is not enough for the government to

23     be able to work properly.  Mr. Djeric, the minister, about whom you claim

24     was attending irregularly, was the most persistent on insisting that the

25     government should work in its full composition.  How do you interpret

Page 2547

 1     that?

 2        A.   The government could not work and its decisions could not be in

 3     force unless there was the required number of ministers.  This is

 4     something that was never done.  Please find me a decision that was

 5     adopted without a -- all the legal requirements being met.

 6        Q.   I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that the next speaker at the

 7     session of the government, Mr. Mico Stanisic remarks and objects because

 8     the minister of foreign affairs, Aleksa Buha was not attending the

 9     session, so the second minister, about whom you said did not attend

10     regularly, intervened and remarked that another different minister was

11     not attending the government session.  How do you interpret that?

12        A.   Well, if they were not present perhaps they were doing their

13     duties.  As minister of foreign affair, perhaps he had some other

14     commitments.  I mean, his job was not to spend time at Pale at the

15     Presidency or the government seat.  That was not part of his job.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not interpret two or three

17     questions and answers.

18             JUDGE HALL:  I just want to alert you that you have 10 minutes

19     left.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't even need

21     more than that.

22        Q.   So Mr. Stanisic objected because Mr. Aleksa Buha did not attend,

23     and you in turn justify that absence by stating and by telling the

24     government that at a meeting of the Presidency it was agreed that the

25     seat of the foreign ministry is in Belgrade; is that correct?

Page 2548

 1        A.   Yes.  The president asked him that he worked there, and Buha was

 2     very tightly connected to him, so the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was

 3     closely connected to the political leadership.

 4        Q.   And let me remind you, earlier in response to my answers --

 5     questions when I asked you why Buha was not good to you, you said that

 6      he -- that was because he leaned towards Belgrade too much.

 7        A.   Well, I never said that.  You interpreted that to mean that he

 8     was leaning too much towards Belgrade.  I think that is your decision.  I

 9     never said anything like that.  This is a question of your decision.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that the speakers are

11     going too fast for a proper interpretation.

12             JUDGE HALL:  You heard what the interpreters have said.  The gap

13     between question and answer.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

15        Q.   Like this, I'm not going to bother you any more about the

16     sessions, the positions.  I would like to say something about the work

17     that is expecting us -- that is awaiting us, Your Honours, about these

18     documents.  I would like to ask the witness about something.

19        A.   Your Honours --

20        Q.   Permit me, we have another 10 minutes, and I'm not going allow

21     you to even take a second of that time.  I'm not even going to grant you

22     one second.

23        A.   Well, I never said that the reason was because he was leaning

24     towards Belgrade.  That is your interpretation.

25        Q.   Please be patient.  You are taking my seconds from me.  The Trial

Page 2549

 1     Chamber will weigh your answer.

 2             Mr. Djeric, I would like to ask you a principled question.  You

 3     attended many Assembly sessions of the Assembly of Republika Srpska; is

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Yes or no, just say that?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   I'm only asking you, don't be afraid.  I'm just asking you

 9     whether you did or didn't.  Did you listen to the addresses of those

10     deputies who spoke?

11        A.   Yes, when I was present I did listen.

12        Q.   The Prosecutor showed you the addresses of deputies Prstojevic,

13     Madam Plavsic, and so on.  I'm going to remind you about Mr. Prstojevic,

14     you said in relation to him that you couldn't know what he was thinking

15     when he was stating certain political positions or plans; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Well, I don't remember putting it quite that way.

18        Q.   All right.  I para-phased.  The question was, what do you think

19     Mr. Prstojevic meant when his address was being quoted, so I'm asking you

20     concretely, can you remember that you said that Biljana Plavsic did have

21     a right to her own opinion and that --

22        A.   Yes, you are para-phrasing again.  This is bothering me.  I

23     didn't say that she had the right to her own opinion.  But what I said

24     was that this is her opinion and she stated that opinion.  We are not

25     saying the same thing.

Page 2550

 1        Q.   All right.  If these things are different that we are saying,

 2     then I'm asking you, does every deputy have the right to their own

 3     opinion?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Does the constitution guarantee that a deputy can say anything at

 6     the podium in the Assembly without replying, does it not say that?

 7        A.   Yes, that is parliamentary practice that any deputy can state

 8     their own opinion.

 9        Q.   All right.  Deputies, using that right of theirs in exercising

10     their right, did they frequently present some sort of personal promotion

11     or promote their region and then after those addresses of theirs, there

12     was no political action or any kind of parliamentary or Assembly decision

13     as a result of that address; am I right?

14        A.   The deputies freely voiced their opinions.  They discussed

15     things.

16        Q.   My question is, by taking out of context parts of certain

17     addresses, are you able to reach conclusions about the policies of a

18     state or a parliamentary body?  Are there any dangers in that?

19        A.   Yes, there's always a danger in taking things out of context,

20     yes.

21        Q.   All right.  Would it be the most proper thing then to take into

22     account only the final product of the Assembly, some law that it adopts

23     or a declaration, a resolution, and to consider them as the basis of some

24     policy being conducted by the Assembly; am I correct?

25        A.   The products are the most important things, the outcome.  But in

Page 2551

 1     any case, part of the policy is also the discussion, all of that.

 2        Q.   Now I'm going to talk about the way or the manner of conducting a

 3     discussion or a debate.  If a third person is making the minutes and then

 4     summarises your address in three sentences in the third person, so to

 5     say, and that that person chooses what is relevant in summarising that,

 6     can you draw conclusions on the basis of such a summary?

 7        A.   Well, that should not be the case.  You are asking me now

 8     something that, you know, I did not have the opportunity to look at the

 9     minutes, how they were summarised, how this was done.

10        Q.   I'm asking this because all the minutes, there is an Assembly and

11     then there is the summary of government meetings, they were all

12     summarised in the third person, and the summaries were two or three

13     sentences per person.  Is this an authentic way of noting down what is

14     said and can it be taken as a authentic substance of the discussion?

15        A.   You are asking me something that --

16             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  Are you suggesting the Assembly minutes are

17     like that?  They are not, they are taped.  The government minutes, I

18     agree, but you said the Assembly.  Do you mean the Assembly?

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Both.  Well, you didn't understand

20     me.  I found also an Assembly session whose minutes were done in a

21     summarised form.  This is the 13th Assembly session of the 24th of March.

22     This is 65 ter 291.

23             MS. KORNER:  But I'm sorry.  You were dealing with the Assembly

24     where Mrs. Plavsic and Prstojevic spoke.  That was a taped Assembly.  Or

25     are you just saying there was one Assembly where there wasn't tapes?

Page 2552

 1     That's what is not clear on the transcript, Mr. Cvijetic.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Correct, Madam Korner.  I just

 3     referred to one matter from the Assembly and the bulk of the example

 4     relates to the government meetings where the minutes were taken in

 5     summary form of the proceedings, so you are right, the Assembly sessions

 6     were taped and then later transcribed, but government sessions were

 7     recorded in this form that I'm referring to.  I'm saying the whole of

 8     this thing in order to see whether we would be able to use this document

 9     or this -- these documents as authentic documents.

10        Q.   Mr. Djeric, do you know how the government session meeting

11     minutes were processed?

12        A.   Well, you asked me --

13        Q.   Now I'm going to give you a specific question.  Who summarised

14     the discussion?

15        A.   This was done by the government secretary.  She took minutes.

16     She was responsible for the minutes and so on and so forth.

17        Q.   Do you consider that he is qualified to summarise your, let's

18     say, voluminous discussion or discussion by some other member of the

19     government?  Is he fit to properly summarise what was being said and pick

20     the most important things?  Can he perhaps fail in this task?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  First part of the

22     witness's answer we did not catch.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends whether there was

24     a proposal of some discussion or, I don't know exactly what to answer.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2553

 1        Q.   All right.

 2        A.   Whether he can or not, I mean.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   All right.  Well, they are saying that the first part of your

 5     answer was not recorded.  Can you please repeat now what you said.  If

 6     I'm not mistaken, who summarised?

 7        A.   The minutes were summarised by the secretary of the government.

 8     And he is the person who, according to his job specification and the

 9     usual practice was charged with taking minutes of government sessions and

10     he did that in the manner that is presented here.

11        Q.   Okay.  So my question --

12             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic --

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no more

14     question, I have no more questions, I have no more questions.  Just one.

15     Just one.  I'm finishing.  I'm finishing with this.

16        Q.   My question was, I am afraid that the answer was not recorded,

17     would such a summary of the minutes regardless of his qualifications has

18     the potential danger that he did not accurately summarise the discussion

19     in three sentences that was much longer than that?  Is there such a

20     danger?

21        A.   Well, if somebody deliberately would like to do something, that

22     is always possible.

23        Q.   All right.  Mr. Djeric --

24        A.   Some minutes were adopted.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Djeric.  Thank you

Page 2554

 1     very much, Your Honours, I have finished with my cross-examination, and I

 2     think that some procedural questions about these minutes we can discuss

 3     without the witness.  As far as I'm concerned, I have no further

 4     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Just before Mr. Pantelic cross-examines.  Can I say

 6     that the answers to the questions about Mr. Prstojevic and Mrs. Plavsic

 7     come in the transcript of the 30th of October 2370.  And Mr. Cvijetic's

 8     summary is perhaps not very accurate.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  Sorry, Mr. Cvijetic --

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, while we wait for Mr. Pantelic to get

12     prepared, there is one intervention in the transcript.  Page 55, row 12.

13     Mr. Cvijetic said 65 ter 2 -- sorry, can I just -- let me just check the

14     other number, Your Honours.  Please just bear with me.  He said 65 ter 29

15     -- sorry.  We will make a proper objection.  I'm sorry, he lost it

16     because I didn't want to interrupt and now I forgot the number.  I'm

17     sorry.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, may I proceed, please?

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Djeric.  I'm attorney

23     Igor Pantelic, and I am defending Stojan Zupljanin.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   The best way for us to speed things up is that when I put the

Page 2555

 1     question to you, you can look on your screen and when the cursor stops

 2     moving then you can begin your answer because then we are also helping

 3     the court reporters and the interpreters.  I think it's proper to proceed

 4     in this way.

 5             Mr. Djeric, I formed the impression from your testimony and on

 6     the basis of analysis of the documents in this case, that you, in spite

 7     of major difficulties in the beginning of the establishment of Republika

 8     Srpska, nevertheless worked professionally and diligently when you were

 9     prime minister; is that correct?

10        A.   As to my work, others can evaluate it, but I did my best to build

11     rule of law and to secure conduct that was in keeping with the law.

12        Q.   And with that goal in mind you placed a lot of emphasis on having

13     the Justice Ministry and the Ministry of the Interior do their duties

14     professionally; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, because I considered them to be key ministries without which

16     there would be no government.  If those two ministries did not function

17     at the appropriate level, the government would not be a successful one

18     either.

19        Q.   And in terms of the Army of Republika Srpska, a member of your

20     government was the minister of defence; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   But, of course, the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in

23     the professional sense carried out its duties in relation to the

24     organisation of defence of Republika Srpska and in military

25     organisations; is that correct?

Page 2556

 1        A.   Yes, in cooperation with the command of course, meaning the

 2     Presidency.

 3        Q.   But you and I can agree that the basic principle is that when war

 4     operations are underway, the military commander is the main coordinator

 5     in all aspects in a specific area of responsibility; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's how it was for the most part.  In places where

 7     operations were being conducted from what I know everything was

 8     subordinated to the army.

 9        Q.   And in that context, from what I can remember, a meeting was held

10     of the extended War Presidency in June 1992.  This is document on 65 ter

11     list 1229.  You mentioned that document in response to a question by

12     Ms. Korner.

13             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Registry

14     to show the document on the screen, please.  65 ter 1229.  Thank you very

15     much.

16        Q.   At this meeting General Gvero informed, as we can see in

17     paragraph 2 of these minutes, he reported of a certain situation in the

18     area of the Banja Luka corps because it was noted that there were

19     widespread crimes prevalent in that area; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes, yes, yes, I was just looking at it.

21        Q.   Also in item 11, it was decided to draft instructions to the

22     Serbian Army, Army of Republika Srpska, in relation to the compulsory

23     provisions of the Geneva Conventions; is that correct?  Are you able to

24     see paragraph 11?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2557

 1        Q.   Now we are going to look at another document that is related to

 2     this one because this document, if I'm not mistaken, is dated the 9th of

 3     June, 1992.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation] Now, I would like to ask the

 5     Registry to put on the screen for us our document 2D07-0049, which is in

 6     the e-court.

 7        Q.   Probably this copy is not the best, but can you please look at

 8     this document.  It's dated the 20th of June 1992, and the Main Staff is

 9     sending a dispatch and instructions out.  Can we please scroll up so that

10     we can see who signed the document and to whom the document was sent.

11             We can see the document was drafted by Milan Gvero, General

12     Gvero, and that it was sent to the command of the 1st, 2nd Krajina Corps

13     and to certain brigades; is that correct, Mr. Djeric?

14        A.   Well, I'm unable to know that.

15        Q.   Well, we are just noting whether that is what it says in this

16     document.  I'm not asking you if you know whether this was dispatched or

17     not.  I mean, it's in the document, you can see it, right?  Now, if we

18     look at paragraph 1 of this document, we can see there that the Main

19     Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in paragraph 1 is talking about

20     cases of retribution against -- or reprisals against innocent people such

21     as looting, burning, destruction, and mistreatment.  Then it says that

22     such actions damage the reputation and the moral image of the Serbian

23     soldier.  Can you see that?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Just for the transcript, do we have the answer?

Page 2558

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters did not hear the witness's answer.

 2             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you please repeat for the sake of the record?

 4        A.   What should I repeat?

 5        Q.   Do you see what it says in item 1?

 6        A.   Yes, but I need time to read it.

 7        Q.   Well, please go ahead, read it.

 8             MS. KORNER:  While that is happening can I just ask, because

 9     we've got two witnesses here at the moment, how long Mr. Pantelic thinks

10     he is going to be.  I think we might as well send one away.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Ten minutes more.

12             MS. KORNER:  Okay.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Can you complete your cross-examination?

14             MS. KORNER:  Re-examination.  Yes, it's going to be fairly short.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So, for the transcript, Mr. Djeric, in item 1 you've read it,

17     have you?

18        A.   I have.

19        Q.   And it says that the Main Staff is pointing out that members of

20     the army have to respect certain international norms and not allow

21     retribution against the civilian population; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I assume that at government level, attention was drawn to the

24     fact that the army needed to prevent such occurrences, the army was told

25     about this; is that right?

Page 2559

 1        A.   Well, that was our standpoint in general.  As you were able to

 2     see, I wrote.  But the army as an institution was a problem of the

 3     Presidency.  The government had no connection to the ministry except for

 4     quartermaster affairs, financing and so on.  I'm saying this for the

 5     simple reason that the idea of government, the concept of government has

 6     been transposed to various other institutions, and that's how certain

 7     problems arose.

 8             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] I have to apologise, I don't know

 9     if this is in e-court.  I just have the ERN number.  It's 03605772.

10     Let's just see whether we have this document in evidence.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, the -- it's 5.20.  It's time for the

12     usual break.

13             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

14             MS. KORNER:  Can I assist, Mr. Pantelic.  It's 65 ter 2673.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you so much.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.

19             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is on his way back in I just

20     wanted to alert counsel, they may have heard it already, of the shift on

21     Thursday from the afternoon to the morning.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE HALL:  You are about to show a document to the witness,

24     Mr. Pantelic.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, yes, Your Honour.  This is, thanks to the

Page 2560

 1     intervention of my learned friend Ms. Korner, this is 65 ter document

 2     2673, please.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, this is a document which is

 4     practically an order issued by the government of the 21st of May, 1992.

 5     In the preamble, as you see, the session was held on the 21st of May; is

 6     that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And the gist of this order is, if I'm not wrong, in view of the

 9     fact that wartime activities are going on, the movements of men liable

10     for military service or conscripts are to be limited, and those who fail

11     to respect this will have measures taken against them by the military

12     organs; is that right?

13             MS. KORNER:  It may just be my screen, but all I've got in front

14     of me is the B/C/S.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Same here.

16             MS. KORNER:  It would be nice to have the English.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I think we all have it now.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours have it in English, do you?  I don't.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I'm looking at point 3, item 3 of this order.  It

22     came into effect right after it was adopted, and it was sent to the

23     municipal Crisis Staffs, was it not?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   We may conclude then that the government in cooperation with the

Page 2561

 1     appropriate ministry, it was the Ministry of Defence in this case, took

 2     all measures to put all available human resources at the service of the

 3     defence of the republic?

 4        A.   Well, this was done by the Ministry of Defence which was in

 5     charge of mobilisation so that --

 6        Q.   Yes, that was the goal, was it not?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djeric.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation] I would now like us to see the

10     document which my colleague Mr. Cvijetic discussed -- let me just see

11     what number it is.  It's MFI P260.

12             MS. KORNER:  It's 1229.  65 ter 1229.

13             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.  I have

14     only ERN number.  It's 00949847.  No, no, it is the other one.  65 ter

15     1129 [sic].  65 ter 129.  Yes, thank you.

16             MS. KORNER:  229, I think.

17             MR. PANTELIC:  65 ter 192.  Then we have a -- mixing up

18     something.  Mr. Cvijetic has a number of 65 ter 192, but obviously it is

19     not the same.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That was the report on paramilitary formations.

21             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, paramilitary formation, Your Honour.  Yes.

22     Okay.  Thank you.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, when answering questions put to you

24     by my colleague Mr. Cvijetic, you looked at this document.  As the author

25     of this document, is the security service of the Main Staff, Colonel

Page 2562

 1     Zdravko Tolimir, who was the chief, tell me the following:  In your

 2     contact with Colonel Tolimir, did you see him as a professional, a

 3     military professional?  Was that your assessment of him?

 4        A.   Please, I didn't make any assessments of Tolimir.  I didn't have

 5     any contacts with him because he was in the military line and had contact

 6     with the Presidency.  He had nothing to do with me.  That was the army.

 7     And the president of the republic had relations with the army.  I neither

 8     assessed him and I -- nor was I involved in any of this.  I was very far

 9     away from it.  The government had no connection at all.  It had nothing

10     to do with military cadres apart from mobilisation, the quartermaster

11     service, the budget, financing.  That was what the Ministry of Defence

12     dealt with.

13        Q.   Would you agree with me if I said that the armies of Republika

14     Srpska, the Muslim Federation, the HVO consisted of former officers of

15     the JNA for the most part?

16        A.   Well, there were professional officers there, but to what extent

17     they made up the army, I can't say with any precision.  It's correct that

18     there were former officers there in the armies.

19        Q.   Bearing in mind that they had gone through rather good military

20     training, we have no reason to doubt that they were professionals in

21     their job, that they knew how do their job; isn't that right?

22        A.   Well, that's how it should be.

23        Q.   And this report compiled by Colonel Tolimir on behalf of the Main

24     Staff, as it mentions events that you yourself referred to, we have no

25     reason to doubt the authenticity of this report?

Page 2563

 1        A.   Well, I cannot verify it, I cannot check it, I can only accept it

 2     as it stands, but I have no knowledge of this.

 3        Q.   Very well.  You know that there were paramilitary formations?

 4        A.   Well, that's another issue.  But as for Tolimir and the army, I

 5     can't speak about that because simply they had no links to me.  As for

 6     paramilitary formations, that's another issue.

 7        Q.   This document was compiled by the security service of the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska, the author is Colonel Tolimir, and it speaks of

 9     paramilitary formations.  You went through this with my colleague

10     Mr. Cvijetic; isn't that right?

11        A.   Yes, I did, but I was even asked by one of the Judges, and I can

12     answer his question now, that paramilitary formations were

13     extra-institutional.  They emerged at a certain point of time.  There

14     were various groups of various strengths, but what was most important

15     certain local authorities and even commercial enterprises or companies

16     from those areas recruited and paid these units.  They found them, the

17     members in Serbia and throughout the region, they brought them there to

18     guard their villages, and quite simply, they found men, paid them, and

19     these local authorities often used the budgets of the local companies to

20     pay the wages of these groups.  And it was very hard --

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did they also arm these groups?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who armed them.  I

23     don't know, but I believe that the local authorities and the companies

24     paid for everything, and these groups had their own interests, and later

25     on, it was very difficult to deal with these groups because they got used

Page 2564

 1     to having their own interests there.  So it was very difficult to

 2     eliminate them.  They became very deeply routed in these areas, and it

 3     was very difficult to get rid of them.  It was very difficult to deal

 4     with them afterwards.

 5             I heard about some of the groups mentioned here and others I've

 6     never heard of mentioned here.  For example, Suva Rebra I've never heard

 7     of them.  As for Arkan's men, Seselj's men, Captain Dragan, yes, I have

 8     heard of them.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, sorry, some of the groups apparently were

10     not recruited on a local basis such as, for instance, Seselj's men, I

11     would imagine that they would be recruited through Mr. Seselj's political

12     party.  Can you confirm this, that some of the groups were not recruited

13     on any local basis but were recruited throughout Serbia and in Bosnia?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I didn't say that these were

15     local people, but it was the local authorities who found these men in the

16     general area.  Most often they were not local people.  There may have

17     been some local people who joined them, I don't know.  I can't be precise

18     about this, but they were found in the general area and paid.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Now, it appears that at least at some point the

20     paramilitary groups were assisting the army in some of the combat

21     operations in that they would perform ancillary duties during and after

22     combat operations.  Are you able to provide any information about the

23     relations that existed between the paramilitary groups and the army based

24     on the knowledge or the information that you received as prime minister?

25     What I'm asking you is that since we have seen that apparently the

Page 2565

 1     problem of controlling the paramilitaries was brought up at several

 2     occasions in meetings not only in the Presidency, but also in the

 3     Assembly, so you must have been present at at least some of the occasions

 4     where these problems were discussed.  And so my first question to you is,

 5     from that information that you received during these meetings, did you or

 6     were you able to form any opinion about how the army and the paramilitary

 7     formations worked together?  And, sir, if you don't know then just say

 8     so, but please be brief.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, I heard that they

10     had problems because in the end the army wanted to get rid of

11     paramilitary formations as well.  The government discussed this issue

12     more than once and demanded that these paramilitary formations be

13     eliminated.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand that this was the -- I understand

15     that this was the position of the -- of your government, that they should

16     be prevented from taking any part in the armed conflicts as such.  But

17     what was the position in the Presidency and in the Assembly?  Are you

18     able to tell us about this?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a rule, they approved of that.

20     There were different views here held by the government and the

21     Presidency.  The Presidency approved, as you were able to see from what

22     Mrs. Plavsic said in the discussion.  She thought they were fighters and

23     so on and so forth.  But the problem of these military units and armies,

24     it was more within the competency of the Presidency.  We dealt with the

25     paramilitary formations insofar as they were obstructing normal life and

Page 2566

 1     the normal order of things, and we asked that they be removed.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, sir.

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And you will agree with me when I say that both the government

 5     and the Assembly and the Army of Republika Srpska issued several

 6     decisions to put the paramilitary formations under the control of the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And now that we are looking at this document, let's look at page

10     5 of the Serbian version, and that's page 4 of the English version.  In

11     paragraph 2, you see that this is about a paramilitary formation called

12     SOS from Banja Luka; is that right?  Have you read this part?

13        A.   Where is it?

14        Q.   It's the second line from the top.  The text begins "the Serbian

15     defence forces, SOS..." read just that paragraph.

16        A.   It's not very legible.

17        Q.   Have you read it?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   What do we see here?  We see that this paramilitary group, SOS,

20     was under the command of a man called Nenad Stevandic, and he was also

21     the president of the Serbian Sokol society; is that right?  Do you happen

22     to know whether this is an association of people raising hawks, or do you

23     know what this society is?

24        A.   It's a sports society.  A sports association.  It existed in the

25     time of the first Yugoslavia, the one that lasted from 1918 to 1941.  I

Page 2567

 1     don't know what this society dealt with specifically.  It was called the

 2     falcon, the falcon society, Sokol, falcon, but here the name reads

 3     slightly differently, it's not Sokol, it's Sokolsko.

 4        Q.   And now an experienced intelligence man, Colonel Tolimir says in

 5     his document that some private businessmen have a considerable influence

 6     over this SOS group, leaders from the public security station in Banja

 7     Luka as well.  That's what it says here, does it not?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   SJB is short for the local police station, public security

10     station; is that right?  Do you know that this is the abbreviation?

11        A.   Well, now you tell me, I know.

12        Q.   What, you are not a policeman?

13        A.   No, I'm not a policeman, I didn't work in the police.

14        Q.   But it's quite simple, Mr. Djeric, it's a question of etymology.

15     Just for the sake of the record.

16        A.   Well, if you tell me it's an abbreviation, I have no reason to

17     say it's not.  You are just helping me to find my way in this document.

18        Q.   Precisely so.  So SJB is a local police station, is it not?  It

19     refers to any local police station; is that right?  For the sake of the

20     record.

21        A.   Yes, yes, I've already agreed to that.  You have translated these

22     abbreviations to me, and I accept your explanation.

23        Q.   SNB is the service of national security, so before 1992, this was

24     the state security, the DB, but then from 1992 there was a change in the

25     law so now that indicates the service of national security, SNB; is that

Page 2568

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And the experienced Colonel Tolimir goes on to say that a number

 4     of criminals had infiltrated that group; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's what it says.  I'm seeing this for the first time so

 6     all I can do is note what I'm seeing.

 7        Q.   All right.  But you know that in many such groups, there were

 8     many criminals and persons of a dubious morality?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, like I said, that person was a businessman and so on.

10        Q.   And now the document goes on and it said that a part of that unit

11     was incorporated into that formation of the Special Police detachment of

12     the CSB but is not under the actual command of the detachment or the CSB.

13     That's what it says, doesn't it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And finally, it says that a part of those -- that group of

16     criminals headed by a certain Branko Palackovic is investigative jail, so

17     something was done by the police to place these people under control; is

18     that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you please now look at the last page of this document.  That

21     is page 6 in the Serbian, and it's page 6 too in the English version.

22     And what we can see is that the dispatch was received on the 13th of

23     August 1992 at the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And the conclusion in the document, which was drafted by the VRS

Page 2569

 1     Main Staff, is that every armed Serb in the territory of the Serbian

 2     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina must be under the single command of

 3     the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and if not, would

 4     need to be disarmed and subject to the provisions of the law; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's what it says here.

 7        Q.   And I assume that you have some information that the army did

 8     take certain measures and that once the military Prosecution and military

 9     courts were formed, such crimes were prosecuted; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, I could see that here and that -- that's what they did, yes.

11             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Professor Djeric, I have no more

12     questions for you, Professor Djeric.

13                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

14        Q.   Mr. Djeric, I want to go back over a few matters that you were

15     asked about in the last few days.  First of all, you told Mr. Cvijetic

16     yesterday when you were being shown a document about the Crisis Staff in

17     Banja Luka about a number of regions being cut off.  Do you remember

18     saying that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   The Krajina region, the Herzegovina region, so on and so forth.

21     For how long do you say these regions were cut off?

22        A.   The Krajina was cut off until the units managed to break through,

23     until the corridor was formed.  The corridor of life, as they called it.

24     But even then the corridor was not safe, it wasn't safe for a long time.

25        Q.   Can you give us a rough date, before I put a date to you, when

Page 2570

 1     the corridor was opened?

 2        A.   I am not able to.  I think that it was in the summer, but simply

 3     it wasn't in my domain, so I really don't -- I mean, it was a matter for

 4     the army -- army, actions I'm unable to remember.

 5        Q.   Yes, but you've asserted that these areas were cut off, and I'm

 6     just going to see if you can assist.  Would the middle of July sound

 7     about right, when the corridor was opened?

 8        A.   I know that it was summer when the corridor was opened, but it

 9     did remain unsafe for a few months after that, but I think it was summer

10     when the corridor was opened.

11        Q.   Yes, but we've looked at the minutes of the Assembly meeting of

12     the 24th of July, and a number of people were able to attend from the

13     Banja Luka area, weren't they, Mr. Djeric?  Including Mr. Kupresanin?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So it can't have been that cut off by July, can it?

16        A.   Look, until the corridor -- or before the corridor was

17     established, it was not possible to pass.  We were unable to pass.  It's

18     another matter if the army was able to get through by helicopters or some

19     other ways.  I mean, regular people were unable to and we were not able

20     to pass through.

21        Q.   Yes, but, sorry, Mr. Djeric.  The Trial Chamber is going to hear

22     some evidence in any event about the corridor operations, but do you

23     accept -- do you agree you've seen the minutes, that Mr. Kupresanin was

24     at the meeting of the 24th of July?  Just get the right date actually.

25     Yes, between the 24th and the 26th of July.  Mr. Djeric?

Page 2571

 1        A.   I didn't see that report.  You are mentioning Kupresanin.  I

 2     didn't --

 3        Q.   We looked at the minutes of the -- and you can have them up again

 4     on the screen.

 5             MS. KORNER:  65 ter 928, please.  English it's page 40, and in

 6     the B/C/S it's page 41.

 7        Q.   Did Mr. Kupresanin come from Banja Luka?

 8        A.   Yes, he is -- he comes from Banja Luka, so he should have come

 9     from Banja Luka.

10        Q.   Did Mr. --

11        A.   I don't -- I have it on my screen now, yes.

12        Q.   Did the gentleman below whose name I always have terrible

13     difficulty with, Cancar -- Cancar?  Did he come from Foca?

14        A.   Yes.  Can you just please tell me where this Assembly session was

15     being held?  I'm not able to follow.

16        Q.   This Assembly session I can tell you, was held, I believe, in

17     Pale.  I can confirm that in a minute.  Sorry, just give me one moment,

18     and I can tell you where it was held.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think the meeting on 24th to 26th July was held

20     in Jahorina.

21             MS. KORNER:  Jahorina.  Jahorina.  Thank you.  Much the same

22     thing I think to all intents and purposes.

23        Q.   Anyhow, I don't want to spend too much time on this, Mr. Djeric.

24     By July, it does appear, doesn't it, that areas which had at some stage

25     or another been cut off, had not -- were no longer cut off?  Do you

Page 2572

 1     accept that?

 2        A.   I do in principle accept that.  As of the end of July definitely

 3     it was possible to pass.  I don't know what the security status of the

 4     roads was though.  I couldn't say that.

 5        Q.   Next I want to -- you were shown a document which was 65 ter 606

 6     which was the Sanski Most Crisis Staff decision apparently appointing Mr.

 7     Vrucinic.  I don't want to have that up again, but could we look at,

 8     please -- perhaps I can just ask you to deal with that without the

 9     document.  Were you aware that Mr. Zupljanin had in fact confirmed the

10     appointment of Mr. Vrucinic?  Did you know that or not?

11        A.   I didn't know.  I didn't know.

12             MS. KORNER:  Next I want you to have up again, please, 65 ter

13     176.  You were asked about that yesterday at LiveNote 24 -- page 2459.

14     And it's page 3 of the English version, I think.  Paragraph -- is this

15     the right one?  Never mind that.  I won't bother to ask you anything

16     about this.

17        Q.   Then you were asked a number of questions about the TAS

18     Volkswagon saga.  Now, you were shown a document, first of all -- I hope

19     this is the right number, 1398.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes, that's the one.  Yes.  I'm very sorry, there's

21     volumes of documents.

22        Q.   Here.  This was the report of the inspectors to the minister of

23     the interior.

24             MS. KORNER:  Could we go to the second page in the English and

25     presumably the second page in the B/C/S, because it's the last paragraph.

Page 2573

 1        Q.   Now, I can't remember whether you said you ever saw this report,

 2     I don't think you did.  But do you see in the middle of that paragraph --

 3        A.   No, no, I haven't seen it before.

 4        Q.   For some reason you were shown this report.  But in the middle of

 5     the last paragraph do you see:

 6             "In addition, Borislav Maksimovic stated that almost every one of

 7     his police employees had stolen a Golf which can be seen, but they would

 8     return them if anyone ever asked them to do so."

 9             Now, were you aware that Mr. Maksimovic, who was in fact the

10     chief of the SJB, was saying that all of his employees had stolen the

11     Golfs?

12        A.   I didn't know, and I didn't say.  You mentioned me saying

13     something.  I didn't say anything.  I'm seeing these documents for the

14     first time.

15        Q.   Yes, I know.  You were shown this yesterday, so I thought I'd ask

16     you about that.  Did Mico Stanisic ever report to you that his inspectors

17     were reporting to him that members of the police force were stealing

18     these Golfs?

19        A.   I don't recall, no.  It was, among other things, one of the key

20     points in the context of this entire problem that we were discussing, the

21     TAS factory, the Golf cars.  I mean, that was a problematic issue.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can I just correct line 15.  I said, did Mico

23     Stanisic ever report to you that his inspectors were reporting to him.

24        Q.   I want you to look at a couple of other documents about this

25     particular event.

Page 2574

 1             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up on the screen, please, 65 ter 3094.

 2     That last report was the 12th of July.  There's no English.  Why is there

 3     no English?

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Djeric, while we are looking for the

 5     document, did you ever know about how many stolen Golfs this was about?

 6     How many cars were involved?  Because I'm a little bit surprised that

 7     this is something the government was dealing with.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we'll see a reason why in a minute.  If

 9     I can get this -- I don't know why we only seem to have the B/C/S, but --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  All right.  Sorry.

11             MS. KORNER:  Have I got the right -- is this -- yes, 16th of

12     July.  For some unknown reason, although I seemed to have managed to

13     download the English version last night, it doesn't appear ... Sorry.

14     All right, I can move on to a further document and come back to this one.

15             Can we try 65 ter 318.

16        Q.   This again is the CSB from Romanija Birac reporting on the 27th

17     of August, 1992 about the Vlasenica SJB.  Talking again about vehicles.

18     And saying:

19             "So far 23 vehicles have been confiscated which five have been

20     returned after checks.  They stress there are big problems as a result of

21     constant requests from the political leadership and the Republika Srpska

22     MUP that vehicles be returned to certain persons without any checks, and

23     there have even been occasions when requests have been made for the

24     return of the vehicles that were being driven with obviously false

25     documents."  Now, this relates to the political leadership and the MUP.

Page 2575

 1             Were you aware of the -- anybody -- firstly, did you ever deal

 2     with that?

 3        A.   Your question is not clear to me, excuse me.

 4        Q.   It talks about the political leadership ordering vehicles to be

 5     returned.  Did you ever make such request?

 6        A.   I would sometimes write to the army asking them to check if these

 7     cars were being used to simply exclude them from the traffic.  I remember

 8     writing an order to the army to put a stop to these things.  To the Main

 9     Staff.

10        Q.   I'm sorry, I didn't follow that answer at all.  What this note is

11     saying is that they have been, the SJB in Vlasenica has been confiscating

12     cars, there's not proper documentation.  They say there's been an

13     interference from the political leadership and the Republika Srpska MUP

14     asking that vehicles be returned to persons without any checks.  And I

15     didn't quite understand your answer.  Did you ever write, not to the

16     army, but to the police, saying they should return vehicles to people who

17     had been stopped?

18        A.   I don't recall writing, but it was asked of the Ministry of the

19     Interior to be active in that respect.  I don't recall, although, I did

20     make efforts to put this under control, to prevent these thefts.

21        Q.   I'm sorry, I still don't understand your answer, Mr. Djeric, but

22     I think it's getting late so I'll move on.  Can I now come back to the

23     document --

24        A.   I don't understand your question so that's why it's hard for me

25     to answer it.

Page 2576

 1        Q.   The police here -- I'll try one more time.  The police here are

 2     complaining there is political interference in their work from people who

 3     are in the leadership, who when they stop people and take away cars

 4     because they don't have proper papers, someone in the leadership orders

 5     the police in Vlasenica to return them.  And I'm asking whether you ever

 6     interfered to this extent?  Now do you understand?

 7        A.   I certainly did not interfere.  I never intervened in that

 8     respect.  Everything I did was quite simply to put a stop to this kind of

 9     behaviour.  But I did it through the Ministry of the Interior or through

10     the army to have this prevented.  It wasn't me.  But probably there were

11     such things in the highest leadership because how would the convoys be

12     able to pass through had not that been there?

13        Q.   All right.

14             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back to the document I was trying to ask

15     you about because we do now have it.  We have it in sanction, not in

16     e-court.  It's 65 ter 3094.

17        Q.   This is a note, again, by the CSB in Romanija Birac dated the

18     16th of July, 1992.  And again we are still referring to this question of

19     the TAS motor cars.  In the second paragraph there's an interview with

20     Mr. Maksimovic, again a second interview.  Then we see that in later on

21     six of the Golf vehicles were registered for the needs of Vogosca, and

22     then Mr. Koprivica and Nikola Poplasen, who you said you knew, is that

23     right, you knew who these people were?

24        A.   Poplasen was an university Professor, and I knew him as an

25     assistant professor.

Page 2577

 1        Q.   Right.  "...a government commissioner gave us information on how

 2     vehicles from the factory had been put at the disposal of various organs

 3     and institutions."  And at the bottom of that paragraph does it say this,

 4     Mr. Koprivica also said that before the war Presidency passed a decision

 5     that is to say for the vehicles, he ordered that six Golf vehicles be

 6     given for the needs of the government of the Serbian republic of Bosnia

 7     and Herzegovina and the vehicles were sent directly to the prime

 8     minister.  Now, that's you Mr. Djeric.  Did you get those vehicles?

 9        A.   The government made official orders and these were paid for.

10     Everything that the government ordered, it paid for.

11        Q.   Is that the answer --

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terrible sorry, I didn't want to interrupt, but

13     this document in fact doesn't say, this in Serbian.  I didn't have time

14     to check the English translation, but this one talks about the --

15             MS. KORNER:  Where doesn't it say that?

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  On page 1 it talks about the Presidency, but the

17     War Presidency.

18             MS. KORNER:  The best thing would be if the witness reads out the

19     last sentence of that paragraph.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I agree.  I agree.

21             MS. KORNER:  If he can.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last sentence?

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   The last sentence of the third paragraph.  We are on the wrong

25     page, aren't we?

Page 2578

 1        A.   The last sentence of the third paragraph?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I withdraw.  I haven't seen this part.

 3     I was watching the first page.  I'm sorry.  It's probably the time and

 4     everybody is tired.  I'm terribly sorry.

 5             MS. KORNER:  It does say prime minister there.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  It does, it does, it does.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Ms. Korner.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   Don't worry about reading it out, Mr. Djeric.  So what this is

10     saying is that vehicles have been taken from the TAS factory and supplied

11     to the government and that you had got them all, and you're saying, yes,

12     you did get them all but you paid for them; is that what you are saying?

13        A.   Yes.  When the government ordered goods, it paid for them.  The

14     government certainly paid what it received.  The problem here is theft,

15     so these things are being mixed up here.  The government asked for

16     vehicles because it needed them, but it paid for them.

17        Q.   All right.  Do you know when you ordered and paid for the

18     vehicles?

19        A.   I can't remember now, but the vehicles were paid for immediately.

20     Immediately.  Delivery could not be taken without evidence that the

21     payment had been made.

22        Q.   Yes, but what was happening here apparently, as you know, was

23     there was whole scale theft of motor vehicles from this factory by police

24     officers and everybody else as far as one can tell.  That's what the

25     scandal was, wasn't it, Mr. Djeric?

Page 2579

 1        A.   No.  The government is only mentioned here because some vehicles

 2     that had been on stock had been delivered to the government, so somebody

 3     stood there and didn't let the vehicles leave without certain documents.

 4     A lot of things are being mixed up here.  The problem here is vehicles

 5     being stolen, vehicles not being paid for.  And how this was possible?

 6     How was it possible for this to be done in the face of the minister --

 7     Ministry of Interior and the factory services and other services?  How

 8     can cars leave the factory without somebody checking what was going on?

 9        Q.   All right.  I want to move then to another topic.  You were asked

10     for some reason to look at documents --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, may I ask.  Mr. Djeric, do you know

12     how many cars were involved?  How many cars were stolen more or less?

13     10, 50, 100, more?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there are thousands of cars

15     at issue.  I don't know the precise number, but this factory was a very

16     rich one.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  In the first document Ms. Korner showed you a few

18     minutes ago, it was said 2300; would you agree to that?  Okay.  Thank

19     you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, I know that -- well, I

21     can't say how many precisely, but I know that the company had

22     considerable amounts of goods on stock.  It was a well to do factory, and

23     that's why the problem was so huge.  This was --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Djeric, just for the record, I see that your

25     answer is not on the record when I asked you 2300, would you agree more

Page 2580

 1     or less to that figure.  What was your answer to that?  So in the

 2     document they said 2300.  Was that more or less the figure you were

 3     thinking about?  You said thousands.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said some thousands, 1- or 2.000.

 5     I'm just speaking in general terms.  All I know is that there were

 6     considerable stocks.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   Just two other matters, please, or three really.  For some reason

10     you were asked to look at documents relating to the arrest of men

11     connected with the Mice and you were also asked about the Yellow Wasps.

12     Do you know what happened to the people who were arrested from the Mice

13     and the Yellow Wasps?  And if you don't know, say so.

14        A.   I don't know.

15        Q.   All right.  You were also shown a letter written to you by

16     Stanisic on the 18th of July of 1992, and it was put to you that it was

17     Mico Stanisic who was the person who originated the idea that there

18     should be an investigation into war crimes.

19             MS. KORNER:  Could you have a look very quickly please at 65 ter

20     1180.  And can we go, please, to the third page in English and the third

21     page in B/C/S.  I think you may have looked at this document already.

22     These are government -- just a minute, what was that date?  65 ter 1183?

23     No, no, no, no.  I should a have said 118 -- it's my own note, yes.  Just

24     a minute, let me check.  Yes, sorry, it's my mistake, 1183, please, third

25     page in English, third page in B/C/S.  Should be the 3rd of June.

Page 2581

 1        Q.   So that's the 3rd of June, a month and a half or nearly two

 2     months before Mr. Stanisic writes that letter.  Do we see that at the

 3     session of the government a procedure -- it's discussed that a procedure

 4     for determining war crimes should be initiated responsibility of the

 5     Ministry of the Interior and the Committee for War Crimes formed by the

 6     government.  Do you know whose idea it was that this --

 7        A.   It was the government's idea.  The Commission for War Crimes, you

 8     see, is something the government had been working on for a long time.  It

 9     established this commission, and it was decided that all perpetrators

10     should be prosecuted.

11        Q.   And finally, Mr. Cvijetic put to you that the essence of your

12     objection to Mico Stanisic and Momcilo Mandic was that they were closer

13     to the president than to you.  That was at page 29 today.  And he

14     interrupted your answer.  Can you tell us now finally what your objection

15     was to both Mico Stanisic and Momcilo Mandic?

16        A.   Quite simply this intervention by counsel does not hold water.  I

17     didn't have problems with them because they were the president's men, but

18     simply because I was not satisfied with their work because these were two

19     key ministries in implementing certain government decisions, especially

20     those government decisions concerning security of property, security of

21     persons, and so on, and all decisions of that nature.  And that is why I

22     had certain problems with them.  Because we concluded that all

23     perpetrators of crimes should be prosecuted and who can do that on behalf

24     of the government but the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of

25     Justice.  These were the two ministries that were supposed to implement

Page 2582

 1     the government decisions.  But they were ignoring the government.  They

 2     kept visiting the president, or going out to the field.  They didn't

 3     attend one session after another.  Sessions were held in their absence.

 4     So quite simply they felt, well, that the government could be pushed

 5     aside.

 6             They thought of themselves as belonging to the top leadership and

 7     that was the problem because the government was unable to do its work in

 8     those areas.  We didn't have basic information, the necessary

 9     coordination was not in place, you know.  There are some jobs falling

10     within the purview of the Ministry of the Interior that can be done by

11     clerks and civil servants but there are things that cannot be done

12     without the minister.  So there was lack of information, lack of

13     coordination.  And if you insisted on that, you would come up against

14     resistance or you would be ignored because in a one-party regime things

15     like this happen.  And they did happen.

16             It wasn't that I had a certain attitude towards them because they

17     were the president's men.  Of course they were the president's men.  No

18     president would allow a minister of justice or a minister of the interior

19     not to be his man.  I didn't mind that.  What I minded was that not

20     enough work was being done on implementing the government programme, and

21     implementing government decisions, especially as regards these matters

22     that I've mentioned.

23             You see, it's a crime when you fail to prosecute crimes.

24        Q.   Finally, did you ever raise this with Mico Stanisic before you

25     complained at the meeting at the end of November, the Assembly at the end

Page 2583

 1     of November?  Did you ever raise this with Mico Stanisic personally, that

 2     in your view he was not doing the job?

 3        A.   Yes, that was my practice with Minister Stanisic and other

 4     ministers.  First, I would speak to them, you know.  I always tried to

 5     correct things, clarify things, point out problems, and only then would I

 6     turn to the government and after that to the political leadership, and

 7     after that to the Assembly.  When I saw that nothing could be done and

 8     that it was reflecting on the government, because when the other

 9     ministers saw that you were unable to get anything done, then they too

10     simply gave up, so to speak.

11        Q.   What was his reaction --

12        A.   Gave up on you.

13        Q.   What was his reaction when you raised it with him?

14        A.   He… simply protested, he believed that was not the case.  He was

15    generally impertinent, impertinent, and he wasn't in favour of a dialogue,

16  of an agreement. You know, he was a man who sort of… liked a bit to play the

17  role of a powerful man surrounded by five or six escorts in full armour and

18  so on...  He even told me once that he would cool me down, and what can you…

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Mr. Djeric, that's all I ask.

20                           Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Djeric, I have one question.  Yesterday you

22     said about crimes, and especially robbery and looting, you've said and I

23     read the transcript:

24             "This was quite prominent for the reason that the crime which was

25     rampant was undermining the authority of the government, especially if

Page 2584

 1     ministers or parts of the state administration were actually taking part

 2     in such activities."  Can you explain what you meant by that?  Ministers

 3     or parts of the state administration that are actually taking part in

 4     such activities.

 5        A.   I think this has not been noted down properly because I was

 6     talking about crime and that it was not a good thing when ministers

 7     participated in crime because it then affected the functioning of

 8     government, but I was speaking in another context when I said that we

 9     took measures to prosecute all those who are violating the law --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Djeric, you say now that ministers take part

11     in crime.  What do you mean by that?

12        A.   Information reached me to the effect that crime was made possible

13     primarily by the participation of these two ministers in those crimes.

14     Minister Stanisic and Minister Mandic.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Djeric.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Djeric, you are now released as a

17     witness.  You may return to your home, and we wish you a safe journey.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the last

19     statement -- I will -- the last statement made by the witness I think

20     gives the Defence a right to -- the right to cross-examine him on this,

21     on the statement he has just made.  Otherwise it will remain unclarified

22     what sort of crime he is referring to and so on.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Djeric, I regret that I would have spoken

24     prematurely.  You heard Mr. Cvijetic's comment, and it's something that

25     we would have to pursue tomorrow morning.  So the cautions, the usual

Page 2585

 1     cautions continue and we -- tomorrow afternoon, I'm sorry, I notice the

 2     look of alarm on the Registry's face.  Tomorrow afternoon.  So tomorrow

 3     afternoon in this Chamber.  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.

 6                 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of November, 2009,

 7                           at 2.15 p.m.