Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2733

 1                           Friday, 6 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The accused Zupljanin not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 7     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 8     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Good morning to all.  May we begin by

10     taking the appearances, please.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution, I'm

12     Thomas Hannis; joined by Francesco Rindi; and Crispian Smith, our case

13     manager.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, and Tatjana Savic are on this

16     Defence team.

17             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For

18     Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE HALL:  On Monday, I think it was, you did alert the Chamber

22     as to the absence of your client for the remainder of the week, and we

23     haven't forgotten.  But the next step of the filing of the formal waiver,

24     hasn't occurred, and I just wish to remind you of that.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  I will check, Your Honour.  It really surprised me

Page 2734

 1     because I know that on a daily basis my client is signing certain form at

 2     the UNDU, but I will take a look into it and keep you informed after the

 3     break.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I did have a procedural

 6     matter I wished to raise concerning the next witness to follow, who is

 7     ST-144.  This is a witness with protective measures including closed

 8     session related to protecting his identity, and to discuss the issue I

 9     think I need to go into closed session because it relates to some

10     specific facts that came up during his proofing.

11             JUDGE HALL:  May we go into private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

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Page 2735











11 Pages 2735-2739 redacted. Private session.















Page 2740

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  I will remind you that

13     you're still on your oath.

14             MR. RINDI:  Good morning, Your Honours.  To begin with, I would

15     like to tender into evidence the statement of Mr. Smajilovic, which is

16     65 ter 10073.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's still an

18     objection pending with regard to the second change to the statement.  We

19     did not object to the witness changing some things in his name, but on

20     page 3 he provided an addition that we objected to and you said that you

21     would rule on that.  We repeat that this is a way to introduce into the

22     statement some details that surfaced during the proofing of the witnesses

23     that you already ruled on.

24             I have just spoken about attempts to introduce into the statement

25     some things that we don't agree with, and I just tried to prove what the

Page 2741

 1     objective behind such practice is.

 2             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours --

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, if I'm not mistaken, but please

 5     corrected me if I am, the additional information that was brought up by

 6     counsel for the Prosecution yesterday, as far as I can remember, was in

 7     the proofing note on page 1, the two points that were made to change his

 8     statement.  And the first point was that his name was Ramis -- his first

 9     name was Ramis spelled with an S and not a Z; and the second was a change

10     to paragraph 6 on line 8, where it says that there were approximately 100

11     soldiers and reserve police officers lined up.  These were the two

12     changes that were introduced, and so your reference to page 3 confuses

13     me.

14             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, if I may assist, it's probably because

15     in the B/C/S version of the statement, the sentence beginning page 2 and

16     finishes in page 3.  This is a minor detail, I believe.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HALL:  The position of the Chamber is that these two

19     changes were allowed, and I think that the Chamber indicated its position

20     yesterday.  But if that is unclear to you, the Chamber's ruling is that

21     these two changes will be allowed.  And the ruling that relates to the

22     additional information contained in the next following pages of the

23     proofing notes were excluded from being added to the statement for the

24     reason -- Mr. Cvijetic, the reason why the Chamber ended up excluding

25     this from the statement is that the Chamber thinks that the additional

Page 2742

 1     information in the proofing note was so substantial and so comprehensive

 2     that we thought that in this instance the Defence might actually be

 3     prejudiced by having to consider this also for the purpose of its

 4     cross-examination, and that the choice was, therefore, either to postpone

 5     the calling of this witness so as to allow the Defence more time to

 6     prepare or -- and that was the option that the Chamber chose in the end,

 7     or to have the witness called immediately and hear - Mr. Smajilovic is in

 8     front of us now - and then to exclude the additional information, so that

 9     the Prosecution is prevented from relying on this additional information

10     in the proofing note.  And the price they paid for that is that

11     Mr. Smajilovic has now arrived to testify.

12             But this decision of the Chamber was based on the -- on the

13     assessment of the quality and quantity of this additional information.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I said yesterday

15     it's our duty to respect your decision, but we also have the right to

16     object.  You see that you already ruled.  I thought you didn't.  In any

17     case if a witness in his statement -- statement which read, "There were

18     about a hundred lined-up soldiers," and continues referring only to

19     soldiers, and if before his testimony here he adds the words "reserve and

20     active policemen" after the word "soldiers," this is an essential change

21     to his statement and channeling the statement directly against the

22     accused.  That's why I said that your ruling about a ban on the use of

23     data from the proofing notes is being bypassed in this way, and that was

24     the essence of my objection.  One of the pieces of information provided

25     during the proofing of the witness has been entered into the statement,

Page 2743

 1     hence into the evidence in this way.

 2             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, if I may assist.  On paragraph 5 of the

 3     statement that I am seeking -- that the Prosecution is seeking to tender

 4     into evidence, the witness specified that the mixed unit which came to

 5     arrest him was a mixed unit, in fact, and I --

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Rindi, the Chamber has ruled.  Why --

 7             MR. RINDI:  Well --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  And the -- the essential application is for the

 9     admission of the document as an exhibit, and having so ruled, the

10     document having been tendered may now be admitted and marked.  Let's move

11     on.

12             MR. RINDI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P314, Your Honours.

14                           WITNESS:  RAMIS SMAJILOVIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Examination by Mr. Rindi:  [Continued]

17        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, I would like now to ask you a number of

18     clarifications on the events that you described in your statement.

19             In paragraph 5 of your statement, you described that a mixed unit

20     came to arrest you.  Can you please tell us who was it that carried out

21     the arrest precisely?

22        A.   My arrest, or to be more specific, a reserve policeman put

23     handcuffs on my hands.  His family name was Simic, and his nickname was

24     Cevap and he hailed from Orahovac.  We were neighbours before the war.

25        Q.   Did Mr. Simic explain the reason why you were arrested?

Page 2744

 1        A.   No.  I asked him what was the matter, and he said, "This won't

 2     take long.  I'm taking you for an interview."

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, bullet point 3 from

 4     the proofing notes has been entered completely, and there is your ban in

 5     place on such practices.

 6             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, if I may make an observation at this

 7     point.  Your ruling on the 4th of November was that the Prosecution was

 8     not allowed to lead with this witness any evidence which came out of the

 9     proofing session which was outside the scope of the statement.  The

10     questions that I'm asking the witness now are all questions which are

11     relating to events that the witness describes in his statement and that

12     are fully described in the 65 ter summary that we submitted to the

13     parties.  So I am not departing from your ruling.

14             Thank you, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Mr. Rindi.

16             MR. RINDI:

17        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, what happened after Mr. Simic handcuffed you?

18        A.   After he handcuffed me, they searched my house, and they said

19     that if they found any weapons that they would set the house on fire.

20     And during the search they did not find anything except for binoculars.

21     And then the same group led by the reserve policeman Simic took me some

22     50 metres away from the house.  There was a mini-van without any side

23     windows parked there.  There was a windshield, and there was a driver

24     sitting in the van.  His name was Nenad Vidovic, and he was also a

25     policeman.  His father's name is Radovan, and his mother's name is Andja.

Page 2745

 1     We used to work together in the same company called Drinatrans in

 2     Zvornik.

 3        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, in your statement at paragraph 6 and 7, you

 4     describe that you were put into a van and that you were then taken to

 5     Zvornik.  Did you go directly to Zvornik from Glumina?

 6        A.   No.  They took me to a place in front of a coffee bar, Sumice, in

 7     a place called Orahovac, about a kilometre or one kilometre and a half

 8     away from my family house.  As I arrived there, some hundred or so

 9     soldiers were lined up there wearing all sorts of uniforms including the

10     uniforms of reserve and active police force.  While I was sitting in the

11     mini-van, a reserve policeman approached me.  His name was Pero.  We also

12     called him Pjevac.  I knew him from before, and he asked me what had

13     happened.  And I said, I don't know.  There you go.  And then he asked me

14     then -- again, What is going on?  And then he whispered to me to prevent

15     the others from hearing.  He told me if they take you to Celopek or to

16     the Ekonomija, then only God can help you.  And if on the other hand they

17     took you to Zvornik, maybe you stand a good chance to survive.

18        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, what happened after you had this short

19     conversation with Pero and you stopped at the Sumice bar in Orahovac, as

20     you just described?  What happened next?

21        A.   After that the black-haired guy who came with the group of

22     soldiers or police officers lined up the men and handed over duty to a

23     man called Kojo, but I don't remember his last name.  And then I was

24     taken -- taken away in the direction of Zvornik.

25             When we reached a crossroads at a place called Karakaj, the road

Page 2746

 1     left was leading to Bijeljina and Celopek and Ekonomija, the places I

 2     mentioned; and the road to the right was the road to Zvornik.  That man

 3     Crni approached the van and Nenad stopped and said that he was taking me

 4     to Zvornik in front of the police station, that is the parking lot used

 5     by both the police and the staff of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik.

 6        Q.   And what happened at that point where you were taken in the

 7     parking lot of the police station as you just described?

 8        A.   When I arrived at the parking lot, a certain time elapsed, maybe

 9     half an hour, possibly more.  Maric came.  He was an active police

10     officer.  He uncuffed me and took me into the building of the petty

11     offence court.  It was only some 10 metres away.

12             There was a Sreten Lazarevic, who was a reserve police officer.

13        Q.   When you were taken in the court, as you say, did they explain

14     you this -- did this Mr. Lazarevic explain you the reason why you had

15     been arrested?

16        A.   No, and I didn't ask him either.

17        Q.   Were you given a warrant of arrest?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, you told us that you were arrested and that they

20     searched your house.  Can you tell us what happened to your property

21     after your arrest?

22        A.   My property was destroyed.  When you're talking about my family

23     house, it was burned, and another was completely destroyed.

24        Q.   In your statement in paragraphs 8 to 17, you describe your

25     detention.  Could you please tell us exactly, or precisely where was it

Page 2747

 1     that you were detained.

 2        A.   When I was taken there, I was detained in the petty offence

 3     court, or misdemeanour court, which is a one-storey building.  And I'm

 4     not sure how many rooms there were, possibly a dozen rooms or so, small

 5     rooms.  When Mr. Maric, the police officer, uncuffed me and handed me to

 6     Sreten Lazarevic, the deputy commander of the camp where I was, I gave

 7     him my driving license in which -- inside which there may have been about

 8     200 German marks.  I gave him my watch.

 9        Q.   And where were you taken at that point?

10        A.   Then I was taken to room number 1 in the court building.

11        Q.   For how long were you detained in room 1 in the court building?

12        A.   About 20 days, maybe 25.

13        Q.   And where were you taken next?

14        A.   Next we were taken to the administration building of Novi Izvor

15     which was in the vicinity of the court building, actually across the

16     road.

17        Q.   And what was the reason why you were brought from the court

18     building to the administration building of Novi Izvor?  Why were you

19     transferred to a different detention facility?

20        A.   There were two reasons.  One being that according to the words of

21     the people who had been brought to Celopek, there had been a massacre,

22     and so these people were transferred from Celopek to those rooms.  And we

23     were transferred to the rooms of the administration building of

24     Novi Izvor.  The other reason is probably that there were too many of us

25     there, and the rooms were really small.

Page 2748

 1        Q.   You told us that a number of prisoners were brought in from

 2     Celopek.  Did you ever have any occasion to see any of those prisoners?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.  I remember one man, Edhem, who worked for the same

 4     company as I.  He was a blacksmith, and he was wounded in the stomach.

 5     There were also other people that I didn't know.  They were mostly from

 6     Divice.

 7        Q.   And in general, what was the condition of those prisoners which

 8     were brought in from Celopek?

 9        A.   They were in a very bad condition.  They had wounds all over

10     their bodies.  They had been beaten up, and they hadn't been provided any

11     medical care.  So their condition was very poor indeed.

12        Q.   Do you know what their ethnicity was?

13        A.   I mentioned a moment ago that they were Muslims from the area of

14     Divice, mostly from that area.

15        Q.   You told us that you were transferred to the Novi Izvor

16     administration building.  How many people were -- were detained at the

17     Novi Izvor administration building?

18        A.   On one occasion there were as many as 70 of us.  And once it had

19     become too crowded, groups of people would be taken to Batkovic.  That

20     was another camp at Bijeljina.

21             MR. RINDI:  Could the Court Usher please display on the screen

22     Exhibit 3419.20.  And could the witness please be provided with a pen in

23     order to enable him to make markings on the screen, please.

24        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, do you recognise the area which is depicted in

25     this picture?

Page 2749

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   Could you please describe to us what -- what area does this

 3     picture depict.

 4        A.   This is a part of the town of Zvornik where there is the police

 5     station, the municipality building, and the misdemeanour court.  Also,

 6     the administration building of Novi Izvor where I was transferred later,

 7     and there's also the parking lot to which they had taken me.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Smajilovic.  If we could please go in order.

 9     Could you please mark with a 1 the exact location, the garage, as you

10     told us, where you were brought immediately when you arrived from

11     Glumina.

12        A.   I said that -- or, rather, I spoke about a parking lot.

13        Q.   Yes.  And could you please -- do you recognise any parking lot in

14     the picture?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you please -- could you please mark it with a 1.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And you also told us that you identified the misdemeanour court.

19     Could you please mark it with a 2.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Could you please mark with a 3 the Novi Izvor administration

22     building which you had identified a moment ago.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   You also told us that you recognised the police station.  Could

25     you please mark it with a 4.

Page 2750

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Is there any other building that you recognise there,

 3     Mr. Smajilovic?

 4        A.   The building of the Municipal Assembly with the office of the

 5     mayor and the professional services.

 6        Q.   Could you please mark that building with a 5.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, I would like to tender into evidence

 9     Exhibit 3419.20 with the markings that the witness just made.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P315, Your Honours.

12             MR. RINDI:

13        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, I would like to direct your attention to the

14     police officers that you identify in your statement and who were at the

15     camp during your detention.  You mentioned a -- an individual called

16     Sreten Lazarevic.  What was his role in the camp?

17        A.   He was the deputy commander of the camp.

18        Q.   And how did you know that?

19        A.   He told me himself.

20        Q.   And what was his profession?

21        A.   He was a car mechanic by profession.  We worked together for

22     Drinatrans for some ten years, but he had even before been a reserve

23     police officer, both before the conflict broke out and during the

24     conflict.

25        Q.   I would like now to speak about Sredoje Vukovic, which you also

Page 2751

 1     identify in your statement.  In your statement you declare that he was

 2     the commander of the camp.  How did you know that?

 3        A.   Sreten Lazarevic told me so, and later on Sredoje Vukovic

 4     corroborated that to me.

 5        Q.   Had you ever seen Sredoje Vukovic before your detention?

 6        A.   I knew him as a professional police officer.  I lived near the

 7     town, and I met police officers, including him.

 8        Q.   And while you were detained at the SUP complex, did you ever have

 9     any occasion to speak to him?

10        A.   On two occasions I did.

11        Q.   And could you please describe to us what the content of those

12     conversation was.

13        A.   For the first time we spoke about a piece of information that was

14     circulating that I was preparing to escape from the camp, which was

15     impossible to do, unthinkable.  And then a group of police officers came

16     and took me to a separate room, because in the first room, which was in

17     the administration building of Novi Izvor that had been vacated and the

18     people had been taken to Batkovici camp in Bijeljina.

19             There was a man by the name of Slobodan who beat me up, and then

20     I reduced communication, my communication with the police officers.  They

21     complained to Sredoje Vukovic.

22        Q.   Can I ask you, who was Slobodan?

23        A.   Slobodan was a reserve police officer in uniform.

24        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, you just told us about the -- one of the two

25     occasion in which you spoke with Mr. Vukovic.  Do you remember any other

Page 2752

 1     occasion in particular?

 2        A.   I didn't finish my account of the first occasion.  Vukovic called

 3     in Sreten Lazarevic, his deputy, and told him if something's the matter,

 4     there are courts and there is the prosecutor.  Let them probe into that

 5     and see whether there's anything to it.

 6             And the second occasion was when we talked at the time when I was

 7     scheduled to be exchanged.

 8        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, if I could take you back to what you just said

 9     with regard to the first conversation that you had with him.  He told you

10     something to the extent that there are courts and that there is a

11     prosecutor.  To what was he referring to in particular?

12        A.   He meant the story that had been glued on me.  There were

13     inspectors who could have made an investigation about my alleged plans,

14     which were impossible to carry out.  And if I, as an individual, had

15     attempted anything like that, the court and the prosecutor could have

16     done their job.

17        Q.   And did he ever explain you the reason why you and other

18     detainees were detained there?

19        A.   No, he never gave that -- gave us that information, and I never

20     asked him, but he once came to the room and told us that there were about

21     90 per cent of people there who had done nothing wrong, who hadn't broken

22     any law, and that it was hard to imagine for so many people.

23        Q.   Mr. Lazarevic, in your statement you also identify three other

24     guards who were present at the detention camp, Mile, Sreten Ikonic, and

25     Dragan.  Do you know in what capacity they were at the camp?

Page 2753

 1        A.   Inside the camp there were at least about a dozen police officers

 2     working in shifts.  They were guards, but they also took people away

 3     during the day to collect or loot things from the houses of Bosniaks.

 4        Q.   What was the profession of -- what was the profession of these

 5     three individuals?

 6        A.   Sreten Lazarevic was a car mechanic, as I said.  Mile was a

 7     waiter.  Dragan worked at Glinica, I don't know what kind of job.  And

 8     Slobodan worked at the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Smajilovic.  In the camp what was the role and

10     what was the function that these three guards had?  I'm referring to

11     Mile, Ikonic, and Dragan?  In what capacity were they at the camps?  You

12     just told us what their profession was outside of the camp.

13        A.   They were police officers, reserve police, members of the reserve

14     police, and they were guards who worked in shifts, round the clock in

15     shifts.

16        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, in your statement you refer to active and reserve

17     police officers.  How were you able to distinguish active police officers

18     from reserve police officers?

19        A.   They wore the same kinds of uniform, but I was able to tell them

20     apart because this Slobodan worked with me before.  And we're talking

21     about the police where I was born, so I knew maybe even 99 per cent of

22     the active police officers.

23        Q.   Could you please describe to us their uniforms, how were their

24     uniforms.

25        A.   They wore blue uniforms.

Page 2754

 1        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, during your detention did you understand who was

 2     it that was running the camp?

 3        A.   If you look at the command responsibility or something, then at

 4     the camp where I was, was under the total control of the active or the

 5     reserve police.  So it was totally controlled by the police.

 6        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 11, you mention that a number of

 7     individuals entered in the camp and mistreated the detainees.  How were

 8     they able, these individuals, to enter into the camp?

 9        A.   The people from outside could enter the rooms where we were

10     detained only if assisted by the police, because all the rooms - now I'm

11     referring to the misdemeanour court building - were locked from the

12     hallway.  And at the Novi Izvor there were even bars which were also

13     locked, and the keys were with the police officers on duty.

14        Q.   In your statement you describe beatings administered by those

15     individuals coming from the outside.  Who was -- who else was present

16     during those beatings?

17        A.   During every beating the one who was at the entrance was always

18     present, that is, police.

19        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, in your statement and during the course of your

20     testimony today you told us that you were detained at the misdemeanour

21     court.  Could you please tell us where precisely in the misdemeanour

22     court you were detained?

23        A.   The misdemeanour court was in the town of Zvornik.  I marked it

24     here.  There's the -- it's near the Municipal Assembly and the police.

25     They all form a kind of a hall.

Page 2755

 1        Q.   But in the misdemeanour court itself, in the -- in that very

 2     specific building, where was it that you were detained?

 3        A.   In room 1, inside that room.

 4        Q.   How big was that room?

 5        A.   The rooms were small.  I can't be precise, but I would say three

 6     by four, three by three.  The rooms were not big in any case, and there

 7     were a few of them.

 8        Q.   Were you alone in room 1?

 9        A.   No.  There was a time when there were some dozen people in there,

10     maybe even more, including me.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Rindi, may I respectfully point out that when we

12     -- in ten minutes when take the break you will have exhausted the

13     45 minutes that you requested with this 92 ter witness.

14             MR. RINDI:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have a few additional

15     questions.  And with your leave, would I like to apply for about 15 more

16     minutes.  Those are clarifications to events that he describes in the

17     statement.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Aren't you -- aren't you treating the witness as

20     a viva voce?

21             MR. RINDI:  No, Your Honours.  I am asking clarification on

22     events that he described in the statement, and this is the procedure

23     under Rule 92 ter.  I'm asking additional questions which clarify the

24     content of his statement.  That was what the Prosecution was allowed to

25     do so far with the other 92 ter witnesses.  I have a few questions.

Page 2756

 1     Maybe I can -- I will try to -- I will endeavour to restrict myself.

 2     Maybe 10 or 15 more minutes, if possible.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  You will wind up by the break at 10.25, Mr. Rindi.

 5             MR. RINDI:  Yes, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Could you please tell us the ethnicity of the people which were

 7     detained with you in room number 1.

 8        A.   All those who were in room 1 were Bosniaks.

 9        Q.   Where did you sleep in room 1?

10        A.   On the floor, and the floor was concrete.  There was nothing else

11     on the floor, just the concrete floor.

12        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, in general how would you describe the condition

13     of detention at the misdemeanour court and at the Novi Izvor

14     administration building?

15        A.   The conditions in the misdemeanour court were very bad.  When it

16     comes to the sleeping conditions, we slept on the concrete floor.  And

17     when it comes to going to the toilet, that was restricted to three times

18     a day:  In the morning, around noon, and in the evening.  That was all.

19     Also, there was not enough food.  We were also restricted in that

20     respect.  There were two meals a day.

21             In the administration building of Novi Izvor, it was a bit better

22     when it came to going to the toilet.

23        Q.   I with like now to move to a different topic, Mr. Smajilovic.  In

24     your statement at paragraph 11, 16, and 17, you describe how detainees

25     were regularly beaten by individuals coming from the outside of the camp.

Page 2757

 1     You described two particular incidents in which a man called Sasa and

 2     another man -- ordered another man to engrave crosses on the foreheads of

 3     prisoners, and another incident in which the group Sasa belonged to

 4     forced some prisoners to engage in sexual activity.

 5             Were there any other episodes in which individuals coming from

 6     outside of the camp beat detainees?  And if so, do you remember any

 7     particular episode?

 8        A.   There were cases.  I can tell you what happened to me in the

 9     misdemeanour court apart from what was happening in the administrative

10     building of Novi Izvor.  Commander Marko Pavlovic, the military

11     commander, that's how he introduced himself to us, came to the room and

12     told me to step out into the hallway which meant that I was only supposed

13     to cross the threshold, that was the only thing that divided the room

14     from the hallway.  There was a man in uniform, in a military uniform

15     standing there.  He was a tall man.  And there was also a reserve

16     policeman whose name was Sreten Lazarevic.  He was the one who unlocked

17     the room to allow them to enter.  And that other man started hitting me,

18     the tall man in military attire.  He started hitting me.  He threw me on

19     the ground, and then he was kicking me in the chest.  I still suffer

20     consequences from that beating.

21        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, when you were detained at the Novi Izvor

22     administration building, do you recall any particular incident in which

23     individuals coming from outside beat detainees?

24        A.   There were other things as well, but at this moment I can't

25     remember.  There were things happening on many occasions.  They would

Page 2758

 1     come at any time of night, and they would beat us.  But let me just say

 2     that they could not enter the rooms without the police giving them

 3     consent to do so.

 4        Q.   I would like now to move to another topic.  In your statement at

 5     paragraph 14, you describe that detainees were forced to loot Muslim

 6     houses.  Could you tell us who forced the detainees to loot?

 7        A.   In the morning after we finished breakfast, the police would

 8     come.  Those were the same people who were in the camp serving as camp

 9     guards.  They came.  They took people away, and they took -- took them to

10     abandoned Bosniak villages and houses, and they looted things from there,

11     ranging from technical appliances, building material, and other such

12     things.

13        Q.   And finally, Mr. Smajilovic, I would like to refer you to

14     paragraph 25 in your statement in which you described how your family

15     left Glumina in mid-June 1992.  Could you please tell us what was the

16     reason why your family left Glumina?

17        A.   The conditions were no longer fit for life, and the security

18     situation was intolerable.  There was no protection nor my family and

19     others.  My family as -- well, as many others, left, some towards Tuzla,

20     others towards Belgrade.  I had some relatives in Belgrade, so my wife

21     with three minor children went to Belgrade.  My father remained in the

22     area.  He went to a neighbour's house, his name is Vidoje Vidovic, to

23     inquire about me, and he never returned from there.  And to this very day

24     I don't know what happened to him.

25        Q.   You described that the conditions were no longer fit for life and

Page 2759

 1     that the security case was intolerable --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Rindi, it's 10.25.

 3             MR. RINDI:  May I just ask the very last question?

 4        Q.   If -- could you please tell us why was that the case?  Why was

 5     the security situation intolerable?

 6        A.   Actually, they did not have any protection from anybody.  They

 7     didn't have access to shops, stores, the hospital.  It was impossible to

 8     get any of those services or to gain access to any of those things.

 9             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, this concludes.  I have no further

10     questions.

11             JUDGE HALL:  We will resume in 20 minutes.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

15             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is returning to the stand, we had

16     promised a ruling on the application which Mr. Hannis had made at the

17     beginning of this morning's session, and the -- in the view of the

18     Chamber, no formal ruling is -- we decline to make a formal ruling for

19     the reason that -- whereas we understood why Mr. Hannis would have

20     formulated the application as he did, in the Chamber's view that

21     application was unnecessary.  And for the reasons that we would have

22     already given, the information being merely a matter of detail and not

23     something new is something which the Prosecution would not be prohibited

24     from leading.  So to the extent that Mr. Hannis would have anticipated

25     that there may have been a problem as -- the view of the Chamber is that

Page 2760

 1     the witness could be led on this evidence in the way that he anticipated.

 2     And to repeat what we said earlier, it would be for counsel for the

 3     Defence to make of it in cross-examination what he wishes.

 4             We would remind counsel, particularly in this case Mr. Cvijetic,

 5     that the earlier ruling that we gave is that -- and appreciating that it

 6     is difficult to articulate this in a way which would encompass every

 7     possibility that may arise in the future, but the basic rule is that

 8     where the proofing of a witness unearths or produces something which is

 9     wholly new and so radically changes the nature and effect of the

10     witness's evidence, then the Chamber would do one of two things, either

11     to require the side calling the -- in this case the Prosecution, to have

12     the witness stood down in order for the Defence to put itself in a

13     position to adequately meet this new evidence, or as we ruled in the case

14     of Witness number 156, to prohibit [Realtime transcript read in error]

15     the witness from being led on the evidence.  But to come back to the

16     specific example, and it is something which we anticipate is going to

17     continually arise, there will inevitably be differences in detail between

18     what witnesses say on different occasions.  That's -- that's a fact of

19     life.

20             Thank you.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's very helpful.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Could we have the witness return to the stand,

23     please.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And could I just for the record say that in line

Page 2761

 1     25 of page 27, I think the Presiding Judge said that the alternative was

 2     to prohibit the witness from being led on the evidence.  The verb

 3     prohibit is missing in the transcript.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  I don't know whether the

 6     witness is protected or not.  I believe he's not.  So good morning,

 7     Mr. Smajilovic.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   I just wanted to check whether you were protected or not.  If you

10     were, I would not have been able to mention your name.

11             Before I put my questions to you, let me just remind you, and

12     that is something that is no longer in dispute, that on the 15th of

13     April, 2004, you provided a statement to the OTP; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   However, having arrived here in The Hague, you corrected or

16     supplemented that statement to a large extent, as it were, and then you

17     repeated that had in your testimony so far.  Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to come

20     closer to the microphone.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you then agree that your previous statement does not fully

23     reflect what you stated before and that you would rather have your

24     testimony be taken as your statement?

25        A.   I may have said it --

Page 2762

 1        Q.   No, no.  Please answer me.  Would you say that your testimony

 2     reflects the truth?  Is that your choice?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So you would not wish to use the previous statement as your only

 5     statement.

 6        A.   Yes, that one with corrections.

 7        Q.   I have to tell you that you probably do not understand our rules.

 8     I believe that the Prosecutor failed to ask you something along the lines

 9     of the rules that we apply.  He failed to ask you whether that statement

10     reflects the truth and what you said, and you just -- or I asked you

11     that, and you just told me that that statement does not reflect what you

12     stated.

13        A.   I did not understand your question at all.

14             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, if I may, I did ask him yesterday if

15     the statement accurately reflects the recollection of the events he

16     describes therein, and he did answer to that question.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We may have omitted that.  We

18     reviewed the transcript.  Could you please assist us and tell us -- give

19     us the reference of the transcript where we can find that.

20             MR. RINDI:  Yes, certainly.  This is page 66, line 16, for your

21     reference.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Today or yesterday?

23             MR. RINDI:  That was done yesterday.  I was not able yesterday to

24     ask the admission into evidence of the statement because of time

25     constraints, so that's -- you know, that's the first thing I did this

Page 2763

 1     morning when I stood up, but I had the occasion to ask to the witness

 2     whether or not he stands by his statement.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could you please give me the line

 4     in the transcript?  We don't seem to be able to find it, unfortunately.

 5     The page number and the line number.

 6             MR. RINDI:  It should be page 66, line 16.  It's -- I can read

 7     and quote the exact question I formulated yesterday if this assists.  It

 8     is page 66, line 16.

 9                 "Q.  Mr. Smajilovic, if you're asked questions about the same

10     topics today, would you give the same answers that you gave in your

11     statement?"

12             And the answer was, "Yes," save for the corrections that I just

13     made, page 66, line 16 to 18 of page 66 of yesterday's transcript.  Thank

14     you.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Okay.  Well, I intervened because

16     the witness supplemented the statement in the course of today's

17     testimony, and I just wanted to check whether the witness stood by the

18     statement or not.

19        Q.   Mr. Smajilovic, you were a member of the SDA in the

20     Zvornik Assembly; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You were one of the 43 SDA MPs.  The SDS had 36.  There were 11

23     Reformists and 11 Communists.  Am I right?

24        A.   I believe so.

25        Q.   Do you know - I suppose you do - all the leaders of the SDA in

Page 2764

 1     Zvornik?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Sir, you also know that the leaders of the SDA in Zvornik were

 4     Pasic, Asim Juzbasic, and Hasim Adzic.  When I say Pasic, I mean

 5     Abdulah Pasic.  Am I right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   The president of the municipality Abdulah Pasic was the SDA

 8     candidate who was later elected as the president of the Crisis Staff of

 9     the municipality of Zvornik.  Do you know that?

10        A.   Yes, I do.  That's correct.

11        Q.   He introduced a curfew in Zvornik, and he also elaborated the

12     plans of blowing up certain facilities.  Is that correct?

13        A.   I wouldn't know.  I'm not aware of that.

14        Q.   The president of the municipality was Mr. Juzbasic, also a member

15     of the SDA.

16        A.   No.  He was not the president of the municipality.

17        Q.   Asim Juzbasic.

18        A.   He was president of the SDA, of the Party of Democratic Action.

19     He was not the president of the Assembly, of the Municipal Assembly, if

20     that is what you mean.  If you mean the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik, if

21     that's what you mean.

22        Q.   Thank you for your clarification.  I may have been wrong.  The

23     chief of the police was Osman Mustapic; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you know that he enjoyed the support of the SDS, and he did

Page 2765

 1     not enjoy the complete support of the SDA?  Do you know that?  Are you

 2     aware of that fact?

 3        A.   I believe that that was correct.

 4        Q.   For example, Juzbasic was for and Abdul Pasic was against.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you know that the Patriotic League was established as an armed

 7     formation for Zvornik on the -- on the 6th of July, 1991, at Kula Grad?

 8        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 9        Q.   Do you know that the Crisis Staff was established at the time you

10     told us that you know that the aforementioned gentleman was the president

11     of the Crisis Staff?

12        A.   I don't know what period you're referring to.  I don't know when

13     you're talking about somebody being the president of the Crisis Staff.  I

14     can't talk about any time-frame.

15        Q.   But you will allow for the possibility that it was in mid-July,

16     as I've told you.  And I have the exact date, which is 26th July, 1991.

17        A.   I'm not sure.

18        Q.   Very well.  Do you know that Mr. Sakib Halilovic, also known as

19     Kibe, was appointed the commander of the Patriotic League?

20        A.   I know that.

21        Q.   Then you should also be aware of the fact that every village in

22     the territory of the municipality was issued with a military schedule and

23     the schedule of engagement as well as their respective commanders.

24        A.   I don't think that that's indeed correct.

25        Q.   So what is correct then?

Page 2766

 1        A.   If there were organisations, they were self-motivated.  People

 2     organised themselves on their -- on their own.

 3        Q.   Okay.  You don't have to go on.  You've answered my question.

 4             Mr. Smajilovic, the president of the local commune, Dzemal Isic,

 5     was in charge of scheduling the guard service in your village?

 6        A.   Yes, that's true, but that was done together -- our neighbours of

 7     Serbian ethnicity who were also members of our community.

 8        Q.   You also heard of Captain Almir who was in charge of Muslim units

 9     and fought for three weeks from Kula Grad in April 1993?

10        A.   Yes, I heard of him subsequently.

11        Q.   Do you know that he arrived in Zvornik already in December 1991

12     and that his task was to establish units?

13        A.   I don't know that.

14        Q.   Hold on.  I've not finished my question.  I'm sorry.  To arm

15     them, to train them, and to -- to build the so-called fortification

16     facilities.  I'm sure you know what that is.

17        A.   I did not serve in the JNA.  I don't know what fortification

18     facilities are, and I don't know about the rest either.

19        Q.   Fortification facilities are trenches and things like that.

20     Okay.  Well, do you know anything about plans being drafted in order to

21     blow up the hydro-electrical plant and plans known as "Red mud"?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Okay.  But you should certainly be aware of the following that

24     I'm going to ask you because it was a public matter, and that was that

25     members of the Serb ethnicity from Zvornik as of that moment onwards as

Page 2767

 1     night fell crossed the river to go to Serbia and spend the night sleeping

 2     at their friends' and relatives' houses and they returned in the morning

 3     to go to school or to work.

 4        A.   I'm not aware of that, and it certainly didn't happen in the

 5     place where I lived.  I don't know what was going on in the town itself.

 6        Q.   Well, I did not have in mind your own village.  I meant the town

 7     of Zvornik.

 8        A.   I wouldn't know.

 9        Q.   Very well.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm just wondering, Mr. Cvijetic, that all of

11     this seems to be at some distance from the scope of the statement and the

12     evidence provided during examination-in-chief of this witness.  So show

13     us the relevance of it.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't know what to do.  First of

15     all, I would like to intervene on the record.  My question put to the

16     witness has been recorded as being his answer, which is on line 34, 6.  I

17     would like this to be corrected first, and then I can move on to respond

18     to your remark.

19             Your Honour, I will very soon come to the witness's statement.

20     This is just by way of introduction.  I just wanted to see how much

21     witness -- the witness knows about the general developments and how much

22     he took part in, in all that.

23             May I be allowed to proceed, Your Honour?

24        Q.   Do you know that in mid-March 1992 the Serbian municipality of

25     Zvornik was established at Karakaj?

Page 2768

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Karakaj was a part of Zvornik, mostly as -- inhabited by Serbs;

 3     is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The remainder of Zvornik is predominantly Muslim, isn't it?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Wasn't most of Zvornik populated by mostly Muslims except for

 8     Karakaj?  Wait until my question is interpreted.  Now you can answer.

 9        A.   This may be a mix-up.  The police was the first to go to Karakaj,

10     the first police.

11        Q.   That was going to be my next question.  Wait a minute.  That's

12     when the police in Zvornik split and the Serbian police went to Karakaj;

13     correct?  Just say yes or no.

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   Was -- were the weapons also split among them?

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   And do you know what I'm about to say, that there were no

18     conflicts in Zvornik during that division of the municipality and the

19     municipal bodies?

20        A.   I must clarify a bit.

21        Q.   Just say whether what I'm saying is correct, that there were no

22     conflicts when that division was made.

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Do you know that from mid-March to mid-April when the conflict

25     broke out in Zvornik a great number of attacks was carried out against

Page 2769

 1     Serb villages around Zvornik?

 2        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 3        Q.   Just wait for my question to answer.  Where many people were

 4     killed and villages were burnt.

 5        A.   I have no knowledge of that.

 6        Q.   Okay.  But you should know that in the same period holdups

 7     were -- were staged and that JNA officers were killed at Sapna.

 8        A.   I heard of that.

 9        Q.   Did you hear of the killing of a member of the MUP of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, a Serb by ethnicity, at Kalesija?

11        A.   I heard that a Muslim was killed at Kalesija, a MUP member.

12        Q.   Kalesija is under the control of Muslim forces, isn't it?  Just

13     say yes or no.

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   All right.  So the attacks against the Serbian villages with

16     killings and burning continued throughout April while there was still

17     fighting around Zvornik, Kula Grad, and even in May 1992; correct?

18        A.   I am not aware of that.

19        Q.   All right.  Let me go on with your statement.  You were arrested

20     on the 15th of May, 1992, by the army commanded by a man called Crni; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   I said as much, but there was -- there were police, too, and that

23     man Crni wore a uniform of a blueish colour.  It wasn't a regular

24     military uniform.

25        Q.   Did you fight and offer resistance?

Page 2770

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   All right.  You say in your statement that they came and arrested

 3     people, but in your interview you say that you fought off the attack

 4     several times, but then:  "The unit broke through our defence lines, and

 5     we had to surrender."  Is that correct?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   So what I read -- the part that I read from your interview is not

 8     correct?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   All right.  You were exchanged on the 9th of September, 1992, and

11     you were taken to the exchange by the military police again; right?

12        A.   In -- talking about my case, about me, I was handcuffed by the

13     civilian police, and they took me away to the camp, and the civilian

14     police took me for the exchange.  And if I may continue.  Once more I was

15     taken to Pale by the military police to be exchanged, and then it didn't

16     work out, and then two, three, or four days later an active police

17     officer and a reserve police officer and two more persons, a driver among

18     them, took me to Lukavica, to Sarajevo, and I was exchanged on that day.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Was there an objection?

20             MR. RINDI:  No, Your Honours.  I wanted to ask my learned

21     colleague if he can provide us with a reference to the part of the

22     interview where the witness will have mentioned that he fought off the

23     attack several times.  An exact reference, please.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I accepted the witness's

25     correction, that I may have misinterpreted what he said in the interview,

Page 2771

 1     and I took that as -- accepted that as a clarification.  I don't take

 2     that to be in dispute any longer.

 3             MR. RINDI:  But we would need a page reference to follow along,

 4     if possible.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Could we move on, please.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let me just see.

 7        Q.   That man Crni took you to Zvornik and surrendered you to a Serb

 8     police officer Maric.  That's part your statement; is that correct?

 9        A.   He only supervised it, but I was driven by Nenad Vidovic, a

10     police officer who even today works at Zvornik.

11        Q.   All right.  And he took you to the detention that you mentioned

12     at the Municipal Court?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you spent a month and a half there roughly; right?

15        A.   Yes, thereabouts.

16        Q.   All right.  In your so-called camp file, on page 5 did you say

17     that you were taken directly to the administration building of

18     Novi Izvor.  You did not mention the misdemeanour court where you

19     mentioned a month and a half.

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   But you remembered that camp file of yours.

22        A.   I don't.

23        Q.   You don't remember the camp file at all?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   So you do not remember that you gave a statement to the

Page 2772

 1     Association of Camp Inmates of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that this statement

 2     of yours constituted a camp file?

 3        A.   There were several statements.  If -- if a file was made, I never

 4     saw it.  It may be a mistake, because at the time when I came to

 5     Novi Izvor, the administration building, there was no camp in existence.

 6     It was established for us.  I think I mentioned as much.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I have this camp file of yours.  Association of Camp

 8     Inmates of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Witnesses of your arrest are mentioned.

 9     Your name and surname.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Why don't -- could we please call

11     1D006486 and show it to the witness, please.

12        Q.   Can you see it on the screen, the document?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see page -- let me

15     check for the exact page.  Yes, it is page 5.

16        Q.   Can you see up there?  It says:  "Taken directly to camp

17     administration building, Novi Izvor, Zvornik."

18        A.   That was entered by mistake.

19        Q.   Did you sign this by any chance?

20        A.   I don't know.  I probably did, but still, it isn't true.  Because

21     at the time when I was taken there, the administration building was not a

22     camp.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let us now turn to page 6 to check

24     whether it bears the witness's signature.  Page 6, please.

25        Q.   Take a look at the lower left-hand corner.

Page 2773

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could zoom in.

 2             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, I believe it would also be helpful to

 3     have the English version of the statement displayed so that the rest of

 4     the persons present can understand and read the statement.  Thank you.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that knowledge of the

 6     English language isn't necessary to recognise the signature.

 7        Q.   Is that your signature, Mr. Smajilovic?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I must find the relevant paragraph

10     on page 5 for the interpreters to be able to interpret it.  Could we turn

11     back to page 5, please.

12        Q.   Right.  I'll read it out and so the interpreters can interpret.

13             This is a form.  It reads:

14             "Taken directly to camp, administration building, Novi Izvor,

15     Zvornik."

16             And there's a translation too.  I believe that we have the

17     translation now also.

18             Can you see, Mr. Smajilovic?  Take a look at the bottom.  It says

19     that Sergeant Mrki took you there.

20        A.   I said so and explained that he supervised the operation.  He

21     supervised that group of people.  And how this obvious mistake came

22     about, probably they thought -- they came to that conclusion because I

23     mentioned being taken to the administration building of Novi Izvor.  But

24     at the time when I was there, there was no camp.  There are witness who

25     can confirm that.

Page 2774

 1        Q.   All right.  All right.  Then we can agree that you recognise this

 2     document and you know what it's about.

 3        A.   Yes, I know.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document as

 5     a Defence exhibit, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D65, Your Honours.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   All right.  Let us continue, Mr. Smajilovic.  I'll go back to

10     your statement about your stay in the court building.

11             You saw Marko Pavlovic all the time, didn't you?

12        A.   In the court I saw him once or twice or possibly three times, but

13     in no -- not more than three times in the court building.

14        Q.   We're talking about Marko Pavlovic, Major; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   He was wearing a camouflage military uniform; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And he was the commander of the defence of the town of Zvornik;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So he was commander of all the forces in Zvornik given his

22     position; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You were beaten up once in his presence if I understood that

25     correctly.

Page 2775

 1        A.   Yes, and in the presence of Sreten Lazarevic, a police officer.

 2        Q.   Marko Pavlovic organised your exchange and contact with your

 3     brother in Sarajevo who was the personal escort of Muhamed Cengic of the

 4     MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

 5        A.   I don't know who it was that organised it.  I know the place from

 6     which I left and where I went, but who organised it --

 7        Q.   So the details about the exchange and the intervention to your

 8     benefit is -- are not familiar to you.

 9        A.   Only partly.

10        Q.   All right.  You said the first exchange that was not successful,

11     it was the military police that took you there; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Is it correct that you were exchanged for a Serb family from

14     Sarajevo, a husband, wife, two children, and father-in-law; correct?

15        A.   It wasn't a father-in-law.  It was mother-in-law.

16        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  So it was a mother-in-law.  Correct?

17        A.   Yes, correct.

18        Q.   He was the brother of a renowned director from Zvornik who was

19     arrested with his family in Sarajevo to be exchanged for you.  Do you

20     know about these details?

21        A.   He wasn't arrested.  He lived normally in his apartment in

22     Sarajevo.

23        Q.   All right.  In mid-June you were taken to the third floor of the

24     SUP, and you were interrogated by Captain Dragan in the presence of Crni

25     and Marko Pavlovic; right?

Page 2776

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   They were all wearing camouflage military uniforms; right?

 3        A.   Except for Crni.

 4        Q.   Were there any SUP inspectors present at your interrogation and

 5     did you give a statement?

 6        A.   Captain Dragan said to me that I should draft a written

 7     statement, and I did so on the ground floor of the police station.  Some

 8     sort of statement.

 9        Q.   Did you get the impression that Captain Dragan is superior to all

10     the others?

11        A.   In that room, yes.

12        Q.   And you were beaten by some people who came from the side who had

13     nicknames such as Bokser, Sasa, Zuco, Gogicevci [phoen], although you

14     think that they were controlled by that Marko Pavlovic; right?

15        A.   I don't know who controlled them, but I was also beaten by the

16     police.

17        Q.   I'll go back to your camp file for a moment.  On page 9.  Let us

18     just find it.  It says data about the perpetrators of the crime.  You

19     entered the "Chetnik armada."  Did you mean these persons that you

20     mentioned by name?

21        A.   I thought --

22        Q.   Did you mean them, or didn't you?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   All right.  And it was from there that you were taken to

25     Novi Izvor in July?

Page 2777

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In your statement you say that the commander of the camp was

 3     Sredoje Vukovic and his deputy, Sreten Lazarevic; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   According to you, Sredoje Vukovic before the war was a

 6     professional police officer, and after that allegedly a camp commander.

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   You also said that his deputy Sreten Lazarevic was a reserve

 9     police officer; correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   You also said that a guard by the name of Mile was a waiter that

12     is from Mali Zvornik that is from Serbia.  So he wasn't from a local, but

13     citizen of another country.

14        A.   No, no.  Mile the waiter was from Zvornik, from Srpska Varos.

15        Q.   As a matter of fact, you did not see Sredoje Vukovic until the

16     moment you transferred to Novi Izvor; is that correct?

17        A.   I didn't see him, but I knew that he was a commander there.

18        Q.   And still you saw him only once.  Your only meeting had to do

19     with the fact that during the repair of a vehicle you allegedly took a

20     monkey wrench and charged him with that and with -- an attempt to escape.

21        A.   I saw him several times, but, yeah, those are the facts, and as I

22     was taken to be exchanged, I also saw him.

23        Q.   There was some other Serbs detained there and a Croat.

24        A.   There were two Serbs and a Croat.

25        Q.   Is it true that you were beaten by some people called Sasa and

Page 2778

 1     others who entered the prison during the night, they were drunk, and then

 2     they treated you in that state?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Those -- the people who you say were policemen and who were your

 5     guards, they didn't beat you, did they?

 6        A.   There was Slobodan who was a policeman, and there was a Dragan.

 7     There were three Dragan's; we distinguished them by nicknames.  They were

 8     policemen.

 9        Q.   But you said that they were much better, but they take the blame

10     for letting the others in; is that correct?

11        A.   Yeah --

12        Q.   Is this true?

13        A.   Well, nothing could happen unbeknownst to them.

14        Q.   Yes, that's what you said.  You were present at least on one

15     occasion when Sreten was informed that they had entered, that he then

16     dispersed them immediately, and that he threatened Dragan for having let

17     them in to beat you; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   He even engaged some locksmiths to install bars and metal doors

20     in order to prevent the entry of those individuals after which the

21     security situation in Novi Izvor was improved.

22        A.   Yes.  However, even after such security measures were put in

23     place, they still came in to beat us.

24        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Smajilovic.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

Page 2779

 1     the witness, Your Honours.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, the Bench is of the opinion that

 4     when you stated, allegedly, the interview of the witness and couldn't

 5     give the reference of -- of it, that this kind of conduct of counsel is,

 6     in our view, unacceptable and will not be accepted in the future.

 7             Thank you.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me respond.  I

 9     have found the reference in the gentleman's interview, in the papers.  I

10     don't want you to think that I've made things up, but it took time.  This

11     is an interview entitled "Ramis's 118 Days of Hell," and this is a

12     document that has been admitted into evidence, and you will be able to

13     find the reference on the first page -- or, rather, the last page of the

14     document.  However, the interview that he gave saying they stormed the

15     village, they broke our defence, and we had to surrender.  This is what I

16     quoted, you will recall, I'm sure.  And now this has been admitted as

17     part of the document, and you will be able to check the quote.  At the

18     moment when I was referring to that document I could not quote the

19     reference number.  It took me some time to find it, but now I would like

20     to inform you that I'm happy that I've found it.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do we have the reference number --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry.  Sorry.  Do we have the reference number

24     now in the transcript, or shall you give it to us?

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  The exhibit number is

Page 2780

 1     1D006486.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  1D006486.  That's it?  Thank you.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  And can we please

 4     check whether it is part of the document?  It should be.  I can show you

 5     the way the interview looks.  I believe that it has been admitted on the

 6     last page of the document.  Can you find it?  Have you found it?  And I

 7     quoted from that interview, from that article, but I wasn't able to -- to

 8     provide you with the reference at that moment.  I apologise for not

 9     having been able to provide you with a timely reference.  I'll try to

10     avoid that in the future, and I apologise.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, if I'm not mistaken, the reference

12     that you have just given to the document is the camp file.  1D006486,

13     that has been admitted into evidence as 1D65.  That's the camp file.  We

14     have it on the screen right now, so please show to us the part.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The last page.  It's page 15 in

16     the English version.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Can we see it?

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There, paragraph starts with the

19     following words:

20             "With the few weapons we had we organised the defence.  We beat

21     them back several times."  These are the words that I underlined.  "And

22     then they surrounded us."  Further on it says that the defence lines were

23     broken up.  And my previous question was:  "Well, did you put up

24     resistance?"  The witness said they didn't.  And then I referred to this

25     part of the interview.

Page 2781

 1             Your Honours, I believe that everything is very clear now.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Thanks.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm not going to ask you to

 4     withdraw your admonition, Your Honour.  I'm accepting it, and I will try

 5     and abide by your words in the future.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic?

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  No question for this witness, Your Honour.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination?

10             MR. RINDI:  I have no further questions for this witness,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir -- you -- for coming to testify.

13     You're -- you're now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe

14     journey back to your home.  Thank you, sir.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you as well.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             MR. HANNIS:  I'm not sure if Your Honours were discussing

19     protective measures and whether we needed to take a break.  The

20     protective measures do include voice and image distortion, as well as

21     partial private session to the extent it's necessary to protect his

22     identification.  The questions I anticipate to ask him will all relate, I

23     think, to his identification, because it's specifically focused on his

24     municipality and the formation he was associated with.  So I think during

25     my direct, I would intend to be in private session the whole time, in

Page 2782

 1     which case we wouldn't need voice distortion, I think.  So I don't know

 2     if that has a bearing on whether we take a break now or not.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The Defence during its cross-examination might

 4     not wish to stay in private session, so we might as well get -- you know.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] So we return in a half

 7     hour.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Just one -- one short submission.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Could you wait until the noise of the ...

13             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Very -- very short

16     submission.  I was informed yesterday evening, and it was -- confirmation

17     came this morning, that Serbian Bar Association is going to general

18     strike starting Monday, 9th of -- 9th of November until Wednesday, 11th

19     of November, due to some problems with the government, you know, and I

20     don't know, basis, reasons for all this stuff.  So all law offices in

21     Serbia will be closed during these three days, and there is a strict

22     order of the Presidency of Serbian Bar Association that members of

23     Serbian bar could not act in any way in -- during these couple of days.

24     So I -- I was -- I contacted our president of Serbian Bar and instructed

25     him to contact OLAD and the Registry here to see how we could resolve

Page 2783

 1     this matter, because I'm speaking specifically for Zupljanin Defence,

 2     apparently that practically we will be the only members acting next week

 3     here within the Tribunal, because there are no other cases, and Stanisic

 4     Defence is consisted of colleague from Republika Srpska, Bosnia, and

 5     Canada.  So actually, Mr. Krgovic and myself, we might be in a grave

 6     breach of professional conduct in accordance with our rule -- rules in

 7     Serbia.  And finally, we -- we -- that could be -- have certain

 8     implications to the list 45 within the ADC association here.  So it's --

 9     I just want to bring to the attention of the Trial Chamber this fact, and

10     of course on a proper way particular official -- officials will inform

11     Trial Chamber of the development.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Pantelic, can I just ask you if your bar

13     association holds extraterritorial jurisdiction over its members in the

14     sense that it can order its members not to act in any judicial activity

15     outside the courts of Serbia?

16             MR. PANTELIC:  That's correct.  And especially because we are

17     bound for the issue of good standing.  We cannot be on the 45 list here

18     if we don't have certification of good standing of our domestic bar.  So,

19     I mean, it might be a vicious circle.  If I -- hypothetically they will

20     start proceedings for disbarring or, I don't know kind of sanctions they

21     may impose.  Then automatically I will not be in good standing for -- me

22     and my colleague Krgovic of the good standing for the association of the

23     Defence counsel in The Hague.  So that's, you know, mutual relation.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Have you tried to seek an exception from your bar

25     association in relations to your services for -- in the international

Page 2784

 1     court?

 2             MR. PANTELIC:  In fact, I will -- I will -- or I already did

 3     that, so I'm waiting for certain position of our bar association, and I

 4     instruct them to be -- to be in direct contact with the Registry and OLAD

 5     department which taking care about the position of -- Your Honour, it's

 6     just information for the Chamber and I hope that on Monday we could be in

 7     a better situation.  I mean, luckily we are not sitting on Monday, so

 8     this communications and correspondence might occur.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Obviously, Mr. Pantelic, it would be awkward if

10     the Serbian Bar Association, which by its nature is a private

11     organisation, would have the power to halt the proceedings of an

12     international court.  That's the -- what the problem basically boils down

13     to, and --

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Well, I would --

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We would expect the bar association to respect

16     the independence of this court and the jurisdiction of this court, but

17     we'll have to see.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I appreciate your position, and

19     I think that we have to see what would be the outcome of communications

20     between our representative of our bar association and the relevant

21     authorities of the ICTY on that regard.  It's just for the notification,

22     nothing more.

23             Thank you so much for your attention, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Our next witness is

Page 2785

 1     ST-144.  This was a witness who was granted protective measures, and he

 2     has the protective measures of voice and image distortion and partial

 3     private session.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             MR. HANNIS:  And I have a pseudonym sheet for the witness,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Does your name appear on that document that has just

 8     been presented to you by the usher?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Well, for reasons that will be explained to you

11     shortly, among the protective measures which have been afforded you in

12     this case is a pseudonym, and you will see that the -- you will

13     henceforth be referred to as Witness number 144.

14             Could you sign that pseudonym sheet, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             MR. HANNIS:  Could we ask him to confirm that his birth date is

18     correct on that sheet as well.  Just to make sure I didn't make an error.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Does that sheet accurately reflect your date of

20     birth?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, before the break you indicated --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

Page 2786

 1             JUDGE HALL:  -- in private session.  That is not -- we wouldn't

 2     be in closed session, I take it.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I have to confess in spite of being

 4     here for years, I still have difficulty with the distinction between

 5     private and closed session.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  So I shouldn't feel too confused.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  No, you shouldn't.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  We're opening the shutters, because it's private

10     session, which I believe that you would be seeking to move to.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2787











11 Pages 2787-2808 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2809

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             MR. HANNIS:

16        Q.   Witness, I want to show you a newspaper article, and this is

17     65 ter number 01292.

18             MR. HANNIS:  If we could have the first page.  Go back one page.

19        Q.   Witness, do you recognise anybody in that photograph?  If so,

20     who?

21        A.   Dusko Vuckovic also known as Repic.

22             MR. HANNIS:  And the second page, please.

23        Q.   Do you recognise anyone in that photograph?

24        A.   Vojin Vuckovic, also known as Zuco.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And for the last document I want to show you --

Page 2810

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, if we could go back into private

 2     session.

 3             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

 4             MR. HANNIS:  I have no more questions concerning that document,

 5     Your Honour.  It's a newspaper article in English.  He hasn't read it.  I

 6     just was asking for identification of the individuals pictured.  I may

 7     seek to admit it later on through another witness.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, back in private session.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  And now back in private session I'd like

10     to show you a 65 ter number 2739.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2811











11 Pages 2811-2813 redacted. Private session.















Page 2814

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not speaking on

 8     behalf of my Belgrade colleagues, my learned friend Mr. Pantelic,

 9     Krgovic, and Zecevic.  They've already given their viewpoints.  I'm

10     interested in the viewpoints of the Trial Chamber, because this will

11     largely influence the work of the Defence teams, especially the Stanisic

12     team.

13             Mr. Stanisic's team is what you see.  There is nobody in reserve.

14     Mr. Zecevic is currently in Belgrade.  I would like to hear your position

15     with regard to the issue that was raised by Mr. Pantelic, because if

16     their demand stands, then I would have to introduce some extraordinary

17     measures in the preparation of my defence, especially when it comes to

18     preparing the witnesses.  All I would like to hear from you is your

19     position with regard to the issue that was raised earlier today by my

20     learned friend.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  As we indicated earlier this afternoon, we would

22     expect to hear from the members of the Serbian bar association about the

23     views of the Serbian bar association in respect of whether this

24     organisation can, as a nongovernmental, private organisation, extend

25     personal jurisdiction extraterritorially so as to bind the conduct of its

Page 2815

 1     members outside the territory of Serbia, and in particular the activity

 2     of its members before foreign courts, and in this case before an

 3     international court.  To recognise such an authority would be surprising

 4     to the Chamber, but in order to be able to render our decision, we would

 5     prefer to hear the views of the Serbian Bar Association on this point

 6     before we make any further plans.

 7             As I said, I would find it quite surprising if a bar association

 8     were able to control the activities of its members outside the territory

 9     of Serbia to the extent that the proceedings in foreign courts, and in

10     this case in international courts, are halted.  That would be highly

11     unusual, and I hope the situation will not arise.  But we expect to hear

12     from the present members of the Serbian Bar Association as soon as we

13     possibly can.  And if indeed the Serbian Bar Association does claim that

14     its members cannot perform any judicial activity even when they are

15     acting outside of the Serbian courts, and if the position of the bar

16     association is that any Serbian member of the Serbian Bar Association

17     does undertake such judicial activities before foreign courts are going

18     to be stripped of their membership of the bar association because they

19     have acted in a foreign court, then of course we realise that you would

20     have lost your standing in these proceedings, and we would certainly not

21     wish that to happen.  So if that turns out to be the position of the

22     Serbian Bar Association, then I suppose it's going to be a matter for the

23     Registry to handle.  But let's just see how bad it gets and hope that the

24     problem can be resolved in a sensible manner.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So we resume at -- we resume in this courtroom at

Page 2816

 1     9.00 on Tuesday morning.  I trust everyone has a safe weekend.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day

 4                           of November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.