Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2817

 1                           Tuesday, 10 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     IT-08-91-T.  The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, all.  We resume today according to the

 8     order for adjournment made when the Court last sat on Friday, but it

 9     would be recalled that on -- at the adjournment we were alerted to an

10     issue involving certain decisions by the Serbian Bar Association of which

11     counsel for the accused Zupljanin are members and which actions

12     indirectly affect counsel who represent the accused Stanisic at ...

13             MS. SAVIC:  We were waiting for escort in court.  We apologise.

14             At this point our -- the reports that we have received is that

15     these matters have not yet been fully resolved, and we await a report

16     from the Registry as to where we go from here.  So at this point the

17     Court -- the Chamber will adjourn for -- until 10.00 this morning, but if

18     we receive an earlier report, we would resume the -- we will take the

19     Bench before that time.

20                           --- Break taken at 9.04 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.07 a.m.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good morning again.  When we adjourned an hour

23     ago, we did so in the hope that the situation with the Serbian Bar

24     Association would be resolved, but as we can see in the courtroom, the

25     issue has not yet been resolved.

Page 2818

 1             Now, we understand that the bar association in Belgrade has

 2     ordered all of its members from -- to abstain from appearing in court no

 3     matter where in the world these members are appearing.  And that the

 4     strike that has been imposed by the Serbian Bar Association is related to

 5     a matter that has nothing to do with the professional or ethical conduct

 6     of its members in their practicing law before courts.

 7             The Chamber is unwilling to accept that the proceedings in this

 8     Tribunal are affected by such matters, and we have, therefore, decided to

 9     instruct counsels to appear and continue the proceedings here as

10     scheduled.  If the counsels do not appear within 45 minutes, we will then

11     have duty counsel appointed for the accused Stojan Zupljanin who is

12     currently unrepresented, and we will then proceed as scheduled with the

13     cross-examination of the current witness.

14             The cross-examination is ongoing by the Defence of Mr. Stanisic,

15     who is represented by counsel, and in this case co-counsel, Mr. Cvijetic,

16     and you will proceed with the cross-examination, and then we'll take it

17     from there.  So we will adjourn now, and we'll resume in 45 minutes, five

18     minutes to 11.00, and if counsel for Mr. Zupljanin have not appeared

19     then, duty counsel will be imposed.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, I don't think that there is much to

22     be said about this, but what is your observation?

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think that in our correspondence

24     with the OTP we tried to find a solemn solution out of this situation, I

25     presume that the Prosecutor will confirm what I'm saying.  The witness

Page 2819

 1     that we are supposed to cross-examine today will be cross-examined by

 2     myself.  Mr. Zupljanin's Defence team has no questions for this witness.

 3     It is a shame for the expeditious proceedings that this witness will not

 4     be examined today and let go to go home.  We can do that in the absence

 5     of our colleagues from Belgrade and in the meantime maybe we can find an

 6     interim solution.  I think we agreed with the OTP about this, and perhaps

 7     we can continue working under the present circumstances, i.e., that

 8     Mr. Stanisic Defence cross-examine this witness.  Perhaps there will be a

 9     redirect by the Prosecution once we finish with this witness, he can go

10     and leave.  After that we can get together and see what and how to

11     proceed next.  I propose this as a kind of interim solution.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic.  The Chamber's order

13     stands.  We will proceed as scheduled with or without counsel appointed

14     for Mr. Zupljanin, and if his appointed counsel does not appear, the

15     Registry will appoint duty counsel for the remainder of the time when his

16     appointed counsel would be absent from the courtroom.

17             We will adjourn now and resume in 45 minutes.

18                           --- Break taken at 10.13 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Although we would have expected to take the Bench

21     again at 11.00, for reasons which are obvious to everybody present, we

22     are only now in a position to resume.  The order of the Chamber was that

23     should counsel -- should assigned counsel for the accused Zupljanin not

24     appear at the resumption, then duty counsel would be assigned, and we are

25     advised that in fact such counsel has been so assigned.  And so we resume

Page 2820

 1     with the proceedings as adjourned at Friday, and we would have the

 2     witness return to the Chamber.

 3             Yes, Mr. Zupljanin.

 4             THE ACCUSED ZUPLJANIN: [Interpretation]  I want to take this

 5     opportunity to thank the Trial Chamber for really truly being concerned

 6     with the fairness of trial in this court, but I would like to draw your

 7     attention to the fact that I do not agree with the appointment of a duty

 8     counsel, simply because I believe that we can proceed without that

 9     arrangement and, in particular, because I appeared first before the Court

10     in front of Judge Stole said that I want to participate in this

11     proceedings and that I would like to act accordingly with my lawyers.  In

12     addition to that, I think that I fulfill certain requirements for that

13     role.  I graduated from the law school, I have passed the bar exam, and

14     as a person who is innocent here and is accused before this court to be

15     given an opportunity to defend myself.  Therefore, I kindly ask you not

16     to bring a new person into this trial who know nothing about my case, he

17     may be not even know my name, and of course he hadn't had an opportunity

18     to go through millions of pages.

19             I, therefore, suggest that we accept the proposal of

20     Mr. Stanisic's Defence that we work with this witness today and then on

21     Thursday we can start with my lawyers present.  In the meantime, if you

22     so agree, I would like to take a stand and take part in my Defence case.

23     I thank the gentleman who has been appointed to this position, but I

24     would kindly ask you not to make any precedent of this kind because it is

25     not necessary.  I would like to underline that in the forthcoming period,

Page 2821

 1     I would like to play a more active role in my Defence instead of sitting

 2     here like a wax figure and just wait to see the outcome of this trial.  I

 3     think that I have made myself sufficiently clear, and I hope that you

 4     honourable judges will have understanding for my position.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zupljanin.  Your comments have, of

 6     course, been recorded and would be a part of the record of this trial,

 7     but the Chamber has previously ruled that you be assigned counsel and

 8     having regard to the peculiar events as has occurred between Friday and

 9     today, duty counsel has been assigned and that is the decision of the

10     Chamber.  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED ZUPLJANIN: [Interpretation] In that case, Mr.

12     President, I would like to ask you to grant me certain period of time for

13     the new Defence counsel in the next few days introduce and familiarise

14     him with the indictment to see for himself what this is --

15             JUDGE HALL:  If I can interrupt, Mr. Zupljanin, counsel who has

16     been assigned, if he feels the need for such time, then he would make

17     that request.  Thank you.  Thank you.

18             MR. KHAN:  Perhaps once Mr. Zupljanin takes the floor, Your

19     Honours, I've got -- takes a seat, I would, with your leave, make a few

20     observations for the court record.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED ZUPLJANIN: [Interpretation] I didn't receive any

23     translation.

24             MR. KHAN:  Perhaps I can try again.  I was saying that perhaps

25     once Mr. Zupljanin takes his seat with the Court's leave, I have a few

Page 2822

 1     observations which may be of assistance.  It will only take one or two

 2     minute, hopefully.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zupljanin, would you kindly resume your seat.

 4     Thank you.

 5             MR. KHAN:  Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm of course most

 6     grateful.  I do of course understand the concerns of Mr. Zupljanin and I,

 7     of course, also do understand the concerns of the Trial Chamber and the

 8     efforts they have made to protect the rights of the accused before them.

 9     Your Honours, these are, of course, exceptional circumstances for reasons

10     which are well known to everyone in the court, far more than me.  But,

11     Your Honours, in my respectful submission, understanding that

12     Mr. Zupljanin has no questions for this particular witness that is

13     currently before the Court, it may be that the appointment of duty

14     counsel may be tempered if Your Honours deem it appropriate, by a

15     discretion to allow Mr. Zupljanin himself, if the case arises, to address

16     the Bench.  Of course, he may on a particular issue, he is always at

17     leave to send a note to me, but should he not wish to do that, Your

18     Honours, of course, in the interests of justice and to ensure that

19     proceedings move smoothly may allow Mr. Zupljanin to make any

20     observations.  It may well be that that permission can be granted quite

21     easily on the basis that with this particular witness at least,

22     Mr. Zupljanin has indicated that he has no need for cross-examination.

23             Your Honours, of course it's only right to say that I am ignorant

24     of the facts of this case.  My appointment is very narrow in its ambit,

25     and I view my role here is to assist the Court and to seek as far as any

Page 2823

 1     procedural issues that come up be to be a resource to Mr. Zupljanin

 2     should he need it, and also to look at proceedings and on any procedural

 3     issue to of course, stand up and make any submissions necessary.  But in

 4     short it is my respectful submission that understanding the unique

 5     circumstances of this case, Your Honours, of course, do have the inherent

 6     discretion to either circumscribe or extend for the next two or three

 7     days the rights that the accused has, so that if you do feel it justified

 8     and if Mr. Zupljanin does consider that he would wish to address the

 9     Bench on any procedural evidentiary matter, that Your Honours may wish to

10     allow him to do that within whatever parameters that the Bench thinks is

11     appropriate on the facts of this case.

12             Your Honour, that's all I have to say on this matter.  I'm

13     grateful.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Khan.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Khan.  We understand the thrust of

17     your submission and the peculiar circumstances which we find ourselves

18     are self-evident and need not be stated, but as a matter of principle, we

19     are firmly of the view that counsel having been assigned, that it is for

20     counsel to take such points and make such submissions on behalf of the

21     accused as counsel considers in his or her judgement should be done, and

22     that it would be inappropriate to allow -- to switch back and forth

23     between the counsel and the accused.  Thank you.

24             So could we have the witness back in court.

25             Mr. Zupljanin, could you have a word with Mr. Khan if there's

Page 2824

 1     something else you wish the Chamber to hear.

 2             THE ACCUSED ZUPLJANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3     I would like to speak directly to you, not with Mr. Khan because I didn't

 4     agree for him to proceed as you suggested.  Therefore, I would ask for a

 5     certain period of time to allow me to inform Mr. Khan what this is all

 6     about.  He has no idea what this is all about.  He doesn't know anything

 7     about today's witness.  He hears nothing.  He doesn't even know my name,

 8     therefore, I don't understand how you do not take heed of my objections.

 9     I'm not going to pass any pieces of paper to him, any notes to him.  I

10     don't find it really logical, reasonable to accept this kind of

11     arrangement.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we have heard you, and we have ruled,

13     Mr. Zupljanin.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, sir.  I remind you that you are still

16     on your oath.  I apologise for the late start.  This has been entirely

17     due to circumstances completely outside the control of the Chamber, but

18     we are now in a position to resume where we left off on Friday, and I

19     would now invite counsel for Mr. Stanisic to begin their

20     cross-examination.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zupljanin, please resume your seat.

23             THE ACCUSED ZUPLJANIN: [Interpretation] No, thank you, I intend

24     to remain standing all the time.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  As you wish.

Page 2825

 1             Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

 2                           WITNESS:  WITNESS ST-144 [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

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22           [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the

23  Trial Chamber]

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Page 2826











11 Pages 2826-2840 redacted. Private session.















Page 2841

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24     Krgovic.  It does appear that there may be, subject to Your Honours

25     decision, a possibility of narrowing the impasse, overcoming the

Page 2842

 1     obstacles that have given rise to today's problems.

 2             Your Honours, of course it appears that the Serb Bar Association

 3     has purported to restrict its members from appearing not only in domestic

 4     courts in Serbia, but also before this International Criminal Tribunal.

 5     Of course one of the issues that appears to vex the Defence counsel in

 6     this case is their potential liability for disciplinary action by their

 7     host -- by their domestic bar association.  Of course, it appears that

 8     the only reason by which they can exercise their rights of audience here

 9     is because they are properly and duly qualified as members of the bar in

10     Belgrade, so to that extent, their admission and their good standing

11     there is a condition precedent to their continuing to represent any

12     accused here.

13             Your Honours are well familiar with the provisions and the

14     founding documents of this court and of course the terms of Article 29

15     which make it incumbent upon all states to cooperate with all orders of

16     the International Criminal Tribunal.  Your Honours, this purported edict,

17     of course, comes from the bar association itself, but the proposal that I

18     put forward for Your Honours' consideration and after speaking to Mr.

19     Krgovic is this:  That Your Honours of course do have the option in open

20     session to recall the terms of this purported edict and to remind all

21     parties and all states that both the code of conduct of members of the

22     bar takes precedence.  The ICTY code of conduct trumps other codes of

23     conducts.  That's the first issue.

24             And the second issue is to say that members of the bar, the two

25     counsel in this case, are required by Your Honours to be here and to the

Page 2843

 1     extent that they are not here, because of any fear they have of

 2     repercussions in Serbia, Your Honours clearly and unequivocally state

 3     that that will not be tolerated by the ICTY.

 4             Your Honours, I don't know if that's clear enough, but what I

 5     hope is being put forward is an avenue that would allow the properly

 6     assigned Defence counsel in this case to appear tomorrow morning and so

 7     that this matter can resolve without further adieu.  Or that may be

 8     required is Your Honours to remind Serbia itself and all state entities

 9     including the independent bar association of their duties to cooperate

10     with this court and that the orders of the Bench, the orders of Your

11     Honours, do take precedent over any other purported edicts that may

12     ostensibly bind Defence counsel.

13             Your Honours, it is of course, a difficult, an awkward situation

14     for Defence counsel, and I do hope that the proposal put forward, however

15     inartfully by me, may be -- may prove to be an avenue that could

16     indeed ...

17             I'm sorry, I missed that, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE HALL:  We should be in open session.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

20             JUDGE HALL:  We have never moved from private session.

21             MR. KHAN:  I'm grateful, as always, to Judge Harhoff.

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, the -- as I said, we neglected to go back into

Page 2844

 1     open session, so from page 25, line 21 we are in open session and that

 2     may be released to the public.  Yes, Mr. Khan, you can continue.

 3             MR. KHAN:  I'm most grateful, Mr. President.  In light of that

 4     that it's going to be in public, there's no need to recap the core

 5     submission that I was putting forward, but, Your Honours, it is my

 6     respectful submission that such a reminder from the Bench may provide

 7     sufficient insurance, if I can put it that like that, sufficient

 8     safeguards that would allow the two counsel in this case to take up their

 9     proper positions representing the accused in this matter.  Your Honours,

10     I hope that assists somewhat.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Khan, we thank you for your suggestion, but with

12     respect, could you assist us in explaining how this would assist, how

13     this would help in the sense that the obligation under the statutes

14     setting up the Tribunal is out of states, and the problem, as we

15     understand it, is of a private entity, namely the Serbian Bar

16     Association.  So we have a little difficulty in saying how any

17     declaration, statement, whatever beyond what the Registrar has already

18     published, and I assume you would have seen that, the Registrar's

19     decision assigning you to the continuation of this case for the time

20     being, how anything beyond that would have any practical effect.

21             MR. KHAN:  Your Honour, of course I'll endeavour to do so.

22     Firstly, I haven't seen, in fact, anything from the Registrar as yet.  I

23     came straight from another court into this one, so I haven't seen at all

24     the terms of the instruction in relation to this matter.  Your Honours'

25     point of course is one that I am alive to and indeed I raised it with Mr.

Page 2845

 1     Krgovic.  It is quite -- it is correct, of course, that Article 29 is

 2     primarily directed at states.  Now, Your Honours, I'm ignorant once again

 3     as to the founding documents of the Serb Bar Association, so with that

 4     important caveat, what I will say is that it is not unknown that in many

 5     systems the bar association whilst independent works under the

 6     superintendent of either the Ministry of Justice or -- well, under the

 7     Ministry of Justice.  To that extent, Your Honours, the state does have a

 8     responsibility to ensure, in my respectful submission, that no

 9     individual, no organisation, no even quasi-independent or independent

10     authority like a bar association can work in a manner which will

11     frustrate the primary object of this court which is to administer justice

12     and do so in an expeditious manner.

13             Your Honour, to that extent, I think an argument not only can be

14     constructed but it must follow that if states are obliged to cooperate,

15     other groups cannot simply ignore or actively frustrate orders from the

16     Bench.  Your Honour, be that as it may, it is also in all candour, a

17     pragmatic solution because the words from the Bench, words from Your

18     Honour, well, in my respectful submission be unlikely to be without

19     sufficient effect in Serbia and on the bar association.  So here one has

20     a practical problem as well as a legal problem.  There is a real issue

21     that is facing from the little I've gleaned, a real issue that faces

22     Defence counsel in this matter that they could be liable to disciplinary

23     proceedings in Belgrade.

24             Now, Your Honours, it does go back to the earlier submission that

25     what of the situation that individuals are disbarred, let's give a very

Page 2846

 1     drastic example, they are disbarred in Belgrade because they have

 2     complied with an order of the ICTY.  Your Honours, as a matter of form,

 3     it seems to me that those individuals would lose their locus standi to

 4     appear as counsel because they would no longer be in good standing.  I

 5     don't see how under the constitutive agreements unless they are

 6     professors of law as well as members of the bar how that issue could be

 7     got around, and that of course raises many issues for the Court.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, may I ask a question, Mr. Khan.  It's a

 9     question that you may prefer not to answer, but inasmuch as we don't have

10     this information on the record, the question is whether our understanding

11     is correct that the root of the dispute is one between the Serbian bar

12     and the government dealing with taxation?  Just a simple yes or no would

13     suffice if you feel -- unless you feel that it would not be prudent to

14     answer the question at all.

15             MR. KHAN:  Your Honours, I don't see any difficulty -- I

16     understand from albeit hearsay sources, that's precisely it.  It's to do

17     with taxation, but, Your Honours, that's -- whilst it's perhaps an

18     unsavoury or rather petty reason to go on strike, that's a matter, of

19     course, that is the responsibility of the executive committee of the Serb

20     bar association.  Your Honours, of course, are looking at the consequence

21     of that which are the conflict between the responsibilities of counsel --

22             JUDGE HALL:  No, the reason why I intervened to ask that question

23     at this stage, Mr. Khan, is that if we were to follow the course that you

24     suggest, wouldn't we be then placing ourselves in the middle of this

25     dispute between the government -- the state which is a party to the

Page 2847

 1     statute and a private entity within that state and in effect telling the

 2     state, which is the relevant party, that they must conform or agree with

 3     the position of that -- isn't that the difficult political position we

 4     would be placing ourselves in were we to follow your course?

 5             MR. KHAN:  With respect, Mr. President, no is the answer.  And

 6     the reason for that is I'm not proposing for a moment that Your Honours

 7     speak to the substance of the dispute between the Serb bar association

 8     and the government of Belgrade, not a bit of it.  What I'm proposing

 9     simply is that Your Honours remind all parties, the international public

10     as well as the Serbian authorities, as well as the Serb bar that no

11     individual or entity can frustrate the designs of the Court, and the

12     Court has ordered that counsel of record appear.  To the extent that they

13     are not appearing because of a threat, a potential threat which clearly

14     has had a chilling effect on the conduct of these counsel, that they

15     should regulate their conduct.  And so, Your Honours, whether or not it

16     acts as an immunity, whether or not it acts as a deterrent on the bar of

17     Belgrade taking action against counsel, it may be sufficient reassurance

18     to allow the two counsel that are representing the accused that's

19     standing up at the moment to resume their rightful places and allow the

20     Court once again to focus on the primary issues, which is the evidence

21     that is being put forward in this case.

22             Your Honours, I don't see that it would interpose the Bench

23     between -- in a domestic dispute in Serbia.  It is simply reminding all

24     parties including all individuals in Serbia that the designs of this

25     Court will not be frustrated.

Page 2848

 1             Your Honours, I hope that assists.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr.  Khan.  We are of the view that it

 3     would be neither prudent or practical to say anything beyond what we have

 4     said directly from the Bench and what the Registrar has already

 5     published.  Thank you.

 6             MR. KHAN:  So be it, I'm grateful.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Mr. Cvijetic, you will recall that for

 8     practical purposes, we had remained in private session throughout the

 9     cross-examination at this point.  Should we remain in that mode or --

10     well, I should say, should we revert to that mode once the witness takes

11     the stand again?

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will be very

13     cautious, but I think that one of the two coming exhibits was under seal,

14     at least that's how it was when the Prosecutor used it, so I have some

15     reservation.  We can begin with open session and then when we come to the

16     second document we can see what's the best course of action.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18                           [Private session]

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Page 2859

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11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, if you allow me, perhaps, the Trial

14     Chamber has been dealing with the same problem of Monday and Tuesday.

15     But first of all, to the Defence counsels, we asked Defence to give the

16     Trial Chamber some estimates of the time you need to cross-examine the

17     witnesses that are scheduled until September.  We ask you to give us that

18     information, I think, for the 23rd of October or somewhere there.  We

19     didn't get that information yet.  Could you please do whatever it takes

20     to give us that information and we, of course, are aware of the fact that

21     it is nothing more than an estimate.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have been

23     convinced all the time that we have already submitted this, but I have to

24     check that with our Case Manager.  All I know is that my colleague

25     Zecevic and I have made a draft in our estimate, and I was really sure

Page 2860

 1     that you had already received that but, however, we are going to check on

 2     that.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would you then please be so kind to pass the

 4     message to Mr. -- the Defence of Mr. Zupljanin.  Thank you.

 5             Then for Monday and Tuesday, we've been looking into the time

 6     estimates given until now, and that would amount to more than three

 7     hearings.  The suggestion the Trial Chamber would make is that we try to

 8     limit it to three days of hearing, which would implicate that OTP would

 9     have for its examination-in-chief four hours and 20 minutes, that the

10     Stanisic Defence would have three hours and 30 minutes instead of four

11     hours as asked for, and that the Zupljanin Defence would have two hours

12     and 40 minutes instead of the three hours asked for.  And in that way, we

13     can handle this witness within three days and we would suggest the OTP to

14     make the necessary arrangements for three days of videolink.

15             MR. HANNIS:  May I raise a couple of matters in addition with

16     that.  One is, Your Honour, this is a viva voce witness.  My

17     understanding the general rule was the time for cross-examination would

18     be equal to the time proposed for direct examination.  So if the

19     Prosecution had five hours say, the two Defence counsel between them

20     would have five hours with the understanding, of course, for a particular

21     witnesses in a particular showing you may give them more.  I note this is

22     a videolink, and based on my prior experience here, it always takes

23     longer on videolink and there are, as I understand it, numerous documents

24     to go through with this witness.  Ms. Korner estimated that five hours

25     was probably how long she would need.

Page 2861

 1             Also because of the way our schedule is going this week we have a

 2     concern that the witness to follow Mr. Panic, the next witness this week

 3     may spill over until Monday.  We would propose, if it's agreeable, moving

 4     the videolink to start on Tuesday and go Tuesday, Wednesday, and as much

 5     of Thursday as necessary to complete it.  But I think we should be able

 6     to complete it in three days even if you gave us an extra 40 minutes for

 7     the Prosecution part of the case.  And we were also -- we checked with

 8     the witness who has some physical medical problems, but he is willing to

 9     have some extended sittings, we could go perhaps longer than four hours a

10     day if it's feasible here, I don't know what the courtroom situation is,

11     but he is able to do longer sittings on those days, if we could have --

12     start in the morning.  I guess it's harder for him in the afternoon.  He

13     gets tireder quicker in the afternoon.  But if we could start earlier --

14     I mean, if we could go longer on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, we

15     could have longer days to -- and that should ensure that we are done in

16     three days.  That's my information and my request.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, with the next witness do we -- do we

19     have two full hearings, that is 177, isn't it?

20             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I had estimated four hours for direct

21     examination.  I understand that the Zupljanin Defence did not propose any

22     cross-examination, and I think the Defence had estimated three hours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Eight hours and a half.  Yeah, that's right we

24     need two full hearings.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, I think that's right.

Page 2862

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So we do -- the Trial Chamber does agree to

 2     postpone the videolink witness to Tuesday to have three consecutive

 3     sessions but eventually if -- with the necessary extended sitting in the

 4     afternoon, but we will see how it goes.

 5             MR. KHAN:  Your Honours, I'm grateful for the assistance of the

 6     accused Case Manager who is present in court.  It's been brought to my

 7     attention that, in fact, Mr. Pantelic indicated to the Court that

 8     cross-examination for about three hours would be needed.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Of which witness?

10             MR. KHAN:  For the videolink witness, Your Honours.  Sorry, Your

11     Honours, bear with me one moment.  I stand corrected, Witness 177 is the

12     witness for which --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That makes nine hours.

14             MR. KHAN:  I'm grateful.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So we'll see how it goes and eventually

17     have a little bit of extended sitting on Monday as well.

18             MR. HANNIS:  If all goes well, Your Honour, I think we could

19     finish Mr. Panic and Mr. Majkic sometime Monday before the end of the

20     regular session, those two witnesses.  That's my optimistic expectation.

21     Thank you.

22             JUDGE HALL:  It's past time for adjournment.  What it is,

23     Mr. Zupljanin?

24             THE ACCUSED ZUPLJANIN: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers]

25     ... less than a minute.  I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that I

Page 2863

 1     don't deem it necessary for me to appear here until my counsel return.

 2     Thank you.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  We take the adjournment to tomorrow.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

 6                           November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.