Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2946

 1                           Thursday, 12 November 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8             Good morning and may I have the appearances, please.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I'm Thomas Hannis along

10     with Crispian Smith on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

12     Eugene O'Sullivan, and Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence.

13             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin Defence

14     Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I should indicate that Mr. Dobbyn is

17     also a part of the Prosecution team this morning.  I didn't see him

18     behind me.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Could we have the witness returned to

20     the stand please.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22                           WITNESS: PETKO PANIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, sir.  I would remind you that you're

25     still on your oath.

Page 2947

 1             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:  [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Panic.  The first thing I'd like to show you is

 5     65 ter number 340.  And this is a document that doesn't have a date on

 6     it, but it appears to be the quarterly report for the Zvornik Police

 7     Station for the months of July, August, and September.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go quickly to the last page at the

 9     bottom so the witness could have a look at the name and the signature.

10        Q.   You recognise who's signed this document, Mr. Panic?

11        A.   Yes, I do.  Milorad Lokancevic, chief of police station.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this document.

14     I have no questions about it at the moment.

15             JUDGE HALL:  What is the document?

16             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, this is a quarterly report for the

17     Zvornik police station for three months during July, August, and

18     September.  It's a contemporaneous document, and it contains information

19     that corroborates some of his earlier testimony and links up with other

20     documents that we have submitted and will submit.

21             JUDGE HALL:  When you say it corroborates information, could you

22     on a thumbnail indicate what that corroboration is?

23             MR. HANNIS:  Well, regarding the police securing certain

24     facilities in town including the Zvornik prison, regarding their

25     activities and combat activities, regarding the fact that a number of

Page 2948

 1     police officers from the reserve force had been removed, regarding the

 2     number of documents that have been sent and received to show

 3     communications.  We think it's relevant and probative and would ask you

 4     to accept it at this time.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P347, Your Honours.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             Next I would like to show the witness 65 ter number 1793.

10        Q.   Witness, this is a -- this is a package of documents or reports

11     regarding Zvornik Police Station for 1992, and this is the -- the

12     collection of documents that we gave you yesterday as a hard copy for you

13     to review after the second break.  Did you have a chance to look at that

14     document yesterday?

15        A.   Yes, I did.  Not entirely, I just glanced at it.  And I

16     apologise, this is not only the report of the police station, it refers

17     to the report of the whole security centre, which is superior to all the

18     others and also includes a plan programme work for 1992 and 1993.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And the chief of station who signed those documents

20     was Mr. Lokancevic?

21        A.   Yes.  That's the public security station, whereas the police

22     station is a different matter.  This is the public security station.

23        Q.   Okay.  Can you explain the difference for us between the public

24     security station and what I heard translated as the police station?

25        A.   The public security station is a higher level.  And within its

Page 2949

 1     organisation structure it has a police station, CID, administrative and

 2     legal department, communications department, et cetera.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Okay.  And the -- the state security is also a part of

 4     that higher organisation?

 5        A.   The state security is a separate organisational unit.

 6        Q.   And under whose supervision would the local state security head

 7     be?  Does he have to respond to Mr. Lokancevic, or does he respond to

 8     somebody in Bijeljina?  How did that work, if you know?

 9        A.   They wouldn't answer to Lokancevic.  As I said, it's a separate

10     unit, and I think that the state security was directly answerable to the

11     ministry.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:  I would like to turn to page 20 of the English and

14     page 17 of the B/C/S in e-court, if we may.

15        Q.   Mr. Panic, I don't know if you had a chance -- sorry.  Mr. Panic,

16     I don't know if you had a chance to see this portion when you reviewed it

17     yesterday.  But this is the section describing the measures and

18     activities aimed at creating and functioning of the Republika Srpska MUP.

19     And if you could look at the first full paragraph after item A.  And I'm

20     reading from my English translation.  It says:

21             "As is well known, the Zvornik SJB had operated within the Tuzla

22     CSB until 4 April 1992."

23             And then it goes on to say:

24             "As of early January 1992, a group of six SJB employees was in

25     permanent contact with the steering committee of the SDS.  The aim was to

Page 2950

 1     prepare the detaching of the SJB in the event of municipal territory

 2     being divided into Serb and Muslim part."

 3             Were you one of those six?

 4        A.   I wasn't among the six employees mentioned here, but on one

 5     occasion, I don't know the exact date, I was summoned to come to

 6     Mali Zvornik to attend a meeting where I got a negative appraisal because

 7     I had been a member of the League of Communists in the past, but I did go

 8     and attend this meeting.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Could we go next to page 18 in the B/C/S and page 21

11     of the English.

12        Q.   And about two-thirds of the way down, Mr. Panic, you'll see an

13     item B.  It says:

14              "On 4 April, 1992, the chief and the assistant chief of the SJB

15     went to a meeting of the Crisis Staff in Ugljevik in order to make

16     arrangements for further activities."

17             On 4th of April, 1992, who would that have been, the chief and

18     the assistant chief by name?

19        A.   I think that Vasilic was the commander -- or, rather,

20     Dragan Spasojevic had already been appointed, whereas Vasilic was the

21     assistant.

22             MR. HANNIS:  And if -- yeah, we could go to the bottom of the

23     page in B/C/S and to the top of page 22 in the English.

24        Q.   The last paragraph is translated as:

25             "After that incident, the assistant chief and the assistant in

Page 2951

 1     charge of reserve forces went to a meeting in Mali Zvornik at which a

 2     decision was made to extract the vehicles, equipment, materiel, and

 3     technical equipment and to put up barricades in Karakaj."

 4             Is this a meeting you just spoke about a minute ago that you said

 5     you attended?

 6        A.   I think that was the case, yes.

 7        Q.   And is it correct that you were the assist in charge of the

 8     reserve forces at that time?

 9        A.   I was assistant for the reserve forces at the Zvornik station.

10     However, there were numerous reserve forces and assistants and

11     commanders.  I'm not sure about this extraction of vehicles.  The only

12     possibility is that Slavko Eric and Marinko were there, whereas I was at

13     a different meeting where this topic was not being discussed, and there

14     were several numbers -- members of the SDS, Dragan the commander and

15     Milan Micic.  Milan Micic and I were given this minus mark because we

16     were not members of the SDS but, rather, members of the former League of

17     Communists.  I'm not sure about this.

18             MR. HANNIS:  If would could next turning to page 20 of the B/C/S

19     and page 24 of the English.  Top of the page in English, and near the

20     bottom in the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Mr. Panic, I want to direct your attention to what's item

22     number 1, about a fourth of the way up from the bottom.  Here in the

23     report it says:

24             "Until -- to 4 April 1992, six senior employees,

25     Dragan Spasojevic, Marinko Vasilic, Slavko Eric, Petko Panic,

Page 2952

 1     Milan Milic, and Miko Miljanovic worked on the organisation and

 2     detachment of the Serb SJB from the original SJB which existed up to that

 3     point."

 4             So again it looks like the chief who is writing this report has

 5     you as one of the original six.  Is that not correct?

 6        A.   To a certain extent it is correct, but this chief was not there

 7     at the time, but after his arrival he had probably been informed.  If

 8     there had been any assignment, the Serbian Zvornik police station was

 9     already established.  Spasojevic was the commander.  His deputy was

10     Marinko Vasilic.  He gave us certain tasks to perform relating to

11     surveillance, because sometime on the 23rd or the 24th the commander

12     deputy Dragan Karovic [as interpreted] mobilised only Muslim police

13     employees, surrounded the SUP building, and the next day we had a meeting

14     where the inspector from the Tuzla CSB came and negotiations were started

15     how to proceed with the work in the future.  I think, then, after that on

16     the 3rd or the 4th in Sapna, the Muslims killed the warrant officer

17     second class and wounded another soldier, which grew into an incident of

18     larger proportions.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  Page 7, line 9.  I believe

20     the name of the commander deputy was not recorded properly, because the

21     witness said something different.  If you can check with the witness.

22             MR. HANNIS:

23        Q.   Did you hear that, Mr. Panic?  Could you repeat the name of the

24     Muslim deputy commander who mobilised Muslim employees?

25        A.   He was deputy commander for traffic.  Adnan Karovic.

Page 2953

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to page 21 of the B/C/S and remain on

 3     24 of the English.

 4        Q.   Mr. Panic, you see a section entitled "Participation of MUP

 5     members in combat operations."  And item D, the fourth one down on my

 6     list says:

 7              "About 20 policemen took part in the securing and guarding of

 8     collective centres."  And as of the writing of this report, the end of

 9     December 1992, it says:  "At present, 11 policemen are guarding just one

10     such centre."

11             I believe that's consistent with what you told us yesterday in

12     your testimony, that the police were taking part in guarding those

13     collection centres that were set up for all the Muslims who were being

14     detained by the various formations operating in Zvornik earlier in 1992.

15     Is that right?

16        A.   Yes.  This probably refers to the Novi Izvor prison and the

17     misdemeanour court which remained there throughout the 1992 and all the

18     way through the early 1993.

19        Q.   And continuing on down that page another three or four items

20     down, one says:

21              "One active police employee was on loan to the VRS along with

22     150 reserve policemen."

23             Again, can you inform us how that worked.  How were MUP employees

24     loaned to the army, if you know?

25        A.   I think that yesterday I said that already at that time there was

Page 2954

 1     no need for such a large number of policemen who were actually reserve

 2     police officers due to certain weaknesses.  The chief, therefore, decided

 3     probably at the brigade commander's request who said that he needed

 4     new -- extra men to downsize the number of the police officer -- officers

 5     so that 150 of them were seconded to the army.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And immediately below that it says:

 7             "Due to various other reasons which render them unfit for work in

 8     the OUP, ten reserve policemen were on loan to the VRS."

 9             Do you know anything about why these ten reserve policemen were

10     not fit for work in the OUP?  And can you tell us what OUP stands for.

11        A.   That stands for internal affairs organ, OUP.  Well, probably this

12     was due to some conduct that didn't become policemen.  I just suppose

13     that was the reason.  I don't know exactly.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. HANNIS:  If we could next turn to page 43 of the English and

16     page 36 of the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Witness, about a third of the way up from the bottom you'll see

18     one line that says:  "Five vehicles were seized during operation TAS,"

19     T-A-S.  Do you know what that referred to?

20        A.   On leaving Sarajevo, certain individuals from the TAS company

21     used to take away Golf vehicles with them.  During the searches and

22     inspection, these vehicles were detected and subsequently impounded.

23        Q.   All right.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Page 40 of the B/C/S, please.  That would be page 46

25     of the English.

Page 2955

 1        Q.   We have a list of manpower, and about two-thirds of the way down

 2     there's a paragraph that contains the number 115.  My English says:

 3             "Due to errors made in service and the fact that they had

 4     violated the moral norms of our people, 150 [sic] reserve policemen had

 5     been stripped from the RR and have been placed at the disposal of the

 6     Serb army."

 7             First of all, can you explain to us what RR stands for in that

 8     paragraph?

 9        A.   Just a moment, please.

10        Q.   The suggested translation in my English is "wartime assignment."

11        A.   Yes, yes, wartime assignment.  Yes, yes.  Instead of being

12     deployed in the police, they were deployed in the army.

13        Q.   And was any other action taken against them for whatever

14     violations of the moral norms that they had committed other than simply

15     kicking them out of the police and turning them over to the army?  Do you

16     know were there were any disciplinary proceedings or any criminal

17     proceedings?

18        A.   If they had not committed any criminal offences, no criminal

19     proceedings were instituted.  As for disciplinary proceedings, since most

20     of them were reserve policemen no action was taken against them.  The

21     punishment meted out to them was that they were deployed in the military.

22        Q.   Thank you.  The last page I'd like to look at in this document is

23     page 50 of the B/C/S, page 56 of the English.

24             Do you recognise the name and the signature at the bottom of this

25     page?

Page 2956

 1        A.   I recognise it.  Vukasin Danojlovic, chief of communication

 2     sector.

 3        Q.   And was that his job in 1992 in the Zvornik SJB?

 4        A.   Yes, before the war and during the war.

 5        Q.   Okay.  In his report we see the number of Official Notes sent as

 6     590 -- or 391, and those received 590.  And he indicates that operations

 7     of the shortwave radio and the telephone exchange were carried out around

 8     the clock.

 9             I know you told us early in the first ten days or so of the

10     conflict that there were some problems with communications.  But this

11     seems to indicate that after that, they were working adequately.  Is that

12     consistent with your experience?

13        A.   As for the first days, the communications system did not

14     function, especially not amongst us, the police forces, because we did

15     not have enough equipment or anything.  And up there when communications

16     were established, well -- well, five, six, ten days upon the entry of

17     Arkan's people, I mean everything was destroyed, and then it was repaired

18     later, and that depends -- so it depends on when the communications were

19     restored.

20        Q.   Okay.  And this gentleman would be in a better position to know

21     about that than you because it was his job; correct?

22        A.   He was chief of communications.  He is the only one who could

23     know that.  For instance, no one could enter the premises of the

24     communications department, and he was commander and they were working

25     there doing their job, using teleprinters and whatever else.

Page 2957

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender 1793.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have an objection, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I speak in Serbian just to be very clear about

 7     it.

 8             [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document contains several

 9     different documents within it, and it is difficult to establish what this

10     is exactly about.  Namely, Mr. Hannis showed one report during the first

11     part.  Actually, in this document, on page 1, it says that the document

12     consists of the methodology for compiling reports, then the report of the

13     SJB Zvornik for 1992 along with the appropriate text, and the programme

14     of the SJB work for 1993.  That's what it says on page 1.

15             In the document itself there are two reports for 1992.  One is

16     the one that Mr. Hannis dealt with during his first few questions,

17     whereas the latter part of his questions were from the second report.

18     One is dated December 1992, and the other report is dated January 1993.

19             That document that Mr. Hannis used in the first part between

20     pages 5 and 6, obviously a different typewriter was used, ERN

21     number 01769088 and ERN number 01769089.  These two reports absolutely do

22     differ, considerably so.  I admit that both were signed by Lokancevic on

23     the last page.  However, it is obvious that for some reason, either two

24     reports were written up or one of the two reports is not the right

25     report.

Page 2958

 1             On pages 01769081, that's the ERN number, that is the document

 2     that is attached to the report dated December 1992, and the second one,

 3     again an accompanying document.  The ERN number is 01769082.  That

 4     pertains to the one from 1993.

 5             I think that in this way in which Mr. Hannis chose to proceed

 6     when putting his questions to the witness in respect of certain facts

 7     from this report, this simply isn't good enough to have this admitted

 8     into evidence.  There is a strong suspicion regarding the authenticity of

 9     this document.

10             Thank you.

11             MR. HANNIS:  If I may.  Your Honours, I strongly disagree.  I

12     think Mr. Zecevic's arguments should go to the weight of this evidence,

13     not its admissibility.  He's identified the chief's name and signature on

14     both those documents.  If you look at them internally you can compare

15     there are not dramatic differences as are being suggested by Mr. Zecevic.

16     There's also an indication that a supplement was sent because the local

17     SJB had not received specific guidance about the traffic report, I think.

18     There's no doubt about the authenticity of these two reports.  There may

19     be some explanation that we don't yet have and can't get from this

20     witness about why there's a difference, but I think that can be resolved

21     by Your Honours reading them together and considering them in line with

22     the testimony you've heard from this witness, from other documents in the

23     case, and from other witness who have testified about what happened in

24     Zvornik.  I think it should be admitted in its entirety.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, I'm not sure I fully understood your

Page 2959

 1     objection.  Are you saying that one of documents is but a draft that was

 2     never sort of adopted in the end and therefore should not be admitted, or

 3     what?

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, that is precisely

 5     where the problem lies.  That is to say, there are two documents that

 6     better same name, "Report of the public security station of Zvornik for

 7     1992."  Both documents are signed, both have an accompanying letter

 8     stating that they were sent to the centre of -- of security stations.  So

 9     both documents pertain to an identical matter, that is to say this is a

10     report of their work for 1992.

11             These two documents bear different dates.  One is dated December

12     1992 - excuse me - and the other one January 1993.  Since both documents

13     were submitted -- seemed to have been submitted, we don't know which one

14     is the real and actual report on the work done, because as I've already

15     said, and I say that again, they considerably differ in certain parts.

16             In this situation we truly do not know what the true and actual

17     report of the work of the SJB for 1992 is.  That is the essence of my

18     objection, because if you were to admit this document now completely as

19     proposed by Mr. Hannis and through this witness who had never seen the

20     document, who simply knows about certain facts, then we have a problem.

21     You will have two documents in evidence issued by the same public

22     security station, two documents that treat the same subject matter but

23     that are different nevertheless.

24             So I absolutely disagree with Mr. Hannis.  We are not talking

25     about the weight that you are going to give to certain evidence.  It

Page 2960

 1     simply has to do with the authenticity of one of these documents.  One of

 2     these documents must be the real report, but then the other one is not

 3     the real report.  That is my position.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I would have thought that authenticity would go

 5     to the veracity or the originality of the documents.  The fact that there

 6     are inconsistencies between the two documents in terms of the facts that

 7     they deal with is not, in my view, an issue that challenges the

 8     authenticity of the documents.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect,

10     I absolutely do not agree.  Actually, think about the following

11     situation:  You have a document that is called order of the minister of

12     the interior and it has a certain number and a certain date.  Then you

13     have another document, order of the minister with a number and a date.

14     The numbers are identical, the signatures are identical.  However, both

15     orders -- I mean, the two orders have different texts, completely

16     different texts, and they treat the same problem.  What do we do then?

17     We have to decide which one of the two orders is valid.

18             That is the situation that we have at hand now.  You have two

19     reports for 1992 of the public security station of Zvornik.  If there are

20     two reports, we have to establish -- or rather, the Prosecutor has to

21     bring in a witness who would show or prove to us in some way which of the

22     two reports is the right report, because obviously not both can be

23     reports of the public security station, because they differ drastically,

24     to my mind.  It is that sense that we really do not know what the right

25     and true report for 1992 is.

Page 2961

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, there are two -- there are two

 2     reports, two cover letters.  The witness's -- the witness recognised the

 3     two signatures.  So that goes for hypothesis that two reports were sent.

 4     As long as there is no shred of proof that there isn't but one sent,

 5     there has been sent two reports.  And then we have two reports, haven't

 6     we?  Whatever may be in it, that means that that person has sent two

 7     reports.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it can be understood

 9     that way.  However, the witness only recognises signatures.  He does not

10     recognise either report because he hadn't seen any one of them.  Since

11     this is an official document, not two reports can be submitted as such.

12     It is the obligation of the public security station to submit one report,

13     one annual report.  They cannot submit two or more reports.  So one of

14     these two reports is not the actual, the right report of that public

15     security station, and we cannot establish that through this witness.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, my learned friend keeps saying these

18     reports differ drastically and significantly.  He hasn't pointed to you

19     anything where there's a drastic or significant difference.

20             In addition, I think Judge Delvoie has it correctly.  There's

21     nothing to suggest why two reports couldn't have been sent.  The first

22     report is sent.  The chief decides or discovers that something's been

23     omitted or there's some additional information.  He files a later report.

24     But that's something that should not part admission of both reports, and

25     Your Honours can sort it out later.  His objections go to weight, not

Page 2962

 1     authenticity.  He's not saying that these reports weren't written by the

 2     chief who's name and signature appear on there and whose name and

 3     signature have been confirmed by this witness as the man who was the

 4     chief at the time.  They're both authentic.  Now, he may have an argument

 5     about which was has validity, which one has weight, which one was the one

 6     that was deemed official, but the substantial portion of the contents of

 7     both are, in my view, from what I've read and seen, identical.  I think

 8     it should come in, his arguments can go weight.  We can ask questions of

 9     other witnesses later that may address it, but there's no reason that

10     these can't come in now.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you give me enough

12     time, I can explain to you how come they differ.  The first four

13     questions that Mr. Hannis put to this witness and the excerpts that he

14     read out to him and he indicated some parts of that particular report,

15     they simply do not exist in the other report.  That is definitely the

16     situation.  In addition to that, there are other differences between the

17     two reports.

18             What I have been saying is the following:  Mr. Hannis is now

19     asking us to speculate as to whether the chief of the public security

20     station sent two reports or withdrew one or perhaps supplemented that

21     report.  We cannot speculate in that way.  The problem is that as soon as

22     there are two reports, for me there is the question of authenticity of

23     one of the said reports.  We have to know which one of the two is the

24     official report.

25             JUDGE HALL:  We are satisfied that the reports are admissible.

Page 2963

 1     At the end of the day it will be for the Chamber to decide what weight to

 2     attach to either or both of the reports.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Mr. Panic, I'd like to show you --

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Hannis.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honours.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  The report will become Exhibit P348,

 9     Your Honours.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, could I show the witness next 65 ter

11     number 2771.

12        Q.   Witness, did you know Risto Zaric?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And tell us again who he was and where he worked.

15        A.   Risto Zaric worked in state security, and to this day he works in

16     the state security of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, 2771 is a state security report or an

19     official note prepared based on information received from Risto Zaric.

20     This document is a companion similar to 2770, which now is Exhibit Number

21     P321.  That was an official note prepared by the same author as the

22     author of this one based on information from Brano Grujic.

23             You'll recall this is one of the documents for which the Republic

24     of Serbia had requested protective measures concerning the identity of

25     the author, and therefore I argued concerning the one regarding

Page 2964

 1     Mr. Grujic that authenticity should not be an issue for this document.

 2     It's a document that we received pursuant to an RFA, a request for

 3     assistance, to the government of Serbia.  It was delivered to us, and

 4     then they approached this court and made requests for certain protective

 5     measures regarding the document.

 6             I would suggest that's sufficient evidence to satisfy you that

 7     the document is authentic, because otherwise the government wouldn't be

 8     taking that position, and therefore, now that you have some information

 9     from this witness confirming that Risto Zaric was a member of the

10     national security working in Zvornik at the time, those two things

11     together I think are sufficient for me now to tender this document as a

12     contemporaneous report about what was happening in Zvornik from someone

13     who was present with knowledge.  And I would like to tender it.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, this document is not on the list OTP

15     provided us with, the list of documents for use with ST-196.

16             MR. HANNIS:  I believe it was, Your Honour.  I'm checking.  It's

17     on my copy of the list that was sent to, I think, Ms. Featherstone and

18     Defence counsel on -- I see Mr. Zecevic seems to be confirming.  It was

19     not in numerical order.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's not in numerical order.

21             MR. HANNIS:  It's the last one on the list I think.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I see.  Yeah.  Sorry, that's why I overlooked it.

23             MR. HANNIS:  My apologies.  It was a late addition and so it

24     ended up at the end instead of its appropriate place.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we object to having

Page 2965

 1     this document admitted into evidence through this witness because we see

 2     no nexus whatsoever between this witness and the document that is being

 3     proffered.  The fact that the witness knows the purported author of this

 4     document does not mean that he knows anything else concerning this

 5     report, any facts contained in the report.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, could you assist us on this nexus issue?

 7     The question of authenticity doesn't arise.  The nexus?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, the content of this report is some

 9     information about Zuco and his unit but also some information about the

10     identity of various members of the paramilitaries who were operating in

11     Zvornik at the time.  Given Mr. Zaric's position in the state security at

12     Zvornik, it seems to me a logical inference to be drawn is that that's

13     the kind of information he would know about.  That is the kind of

14     information that the state security people would be trying to keep track

15     of, and, therefore, I think that gives us the nexus for you to have

16     sufficient confidence that the official note contains information from a

17     person who would likely have that information, and therefore you can

18     accept it.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Information that the witness would know about?

20     Shouldn't you ask him at least some question about it?

21             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I can ask him to review the list of

22     names and if he recognises any of those names as members of the

23     volunteers and formations that he saw operating in Zvornik.  I know, for

24     example, at page 6 of the English you already have information that

25     Rade Tanackovic was a member of Zuco's group.  That's in this document.

Page 2966

 1     I think there are some others.  Pivarski is listed here, some of the

 2     others that you're already familiar with.  I don't know that this witness

 3     can advance us much further upon that, and I don't know that he needs to,

 4     frankly, Your Honour.  That's my position.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Tendered, admitted, and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P349, Your Honours.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Lastly, Witness, the three documents I'd like to show you very

10     quickly, 30 -- 65 ter number 3214, please.

11             MR. HANNIS:  And, Your Honours, I would indicate I don't have an

12     English translation of these next three documents at this point in time.

13     I'll explain in a moment.  I only have a translation of the cover page.

14        Q.   Witness, did you have an opportunity to see this document during

15     your proofing?

16             MR. HANNIS:  And if we could go to the next page in B/C/S.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a telegram, dispatch.  Yes,

18     yes.  From the communications centre.  Yes.  Dispatches were sent that

19     way, yes.

20             MR. HANNIS:

21        Q.   Okay.  And does this appear to be one of the communication

22     logbooks for Zvornik SJB?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes.  The numbers go from 1 and onwards.  This is the

24     logbook of outgoing dispatches.  Yes.  That was the SUP.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Could we show the witness 3215, 65 ter 3215.

Page 2967

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I'm just wondering the

 2     relevance of this document which is right now on our monitors.  It says

 3     here the 9th of January, 1979.  1979.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, these logbooks cover extensive periods

 5     of time.  We can certainly make an excerpt for the period late 1991

 6     through 1992, and we'll do that.  But the logbook came as a whole.  We

 7     didn't feel it appropriate for us to tear it apart, at the beginning at

 8     least.  Also, there may be some argument to be made from prior years'

 9     communications versus the level of communications during late 1991 and

10     1992 during the war.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  I understand.  I now withdraw my

12     objection.  I was just wondering, because I still didn't have the time to

13     see the whole lot.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, Mr. Hannis, you have to be more helpful to

15     the Chamber.  I have no idea about what this logbook really shows.  Is

16     that a list over outgoing telegrams from the Zvornik SJB?  And in that

17     case, telegrams to whom?  And -- and in what connection?  We are

18     completely at a loss here.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I just want to mark these for

20     identification at this point in time.  But this witness has been able to

21     look at them and say that he recognises these as communication logbooks

22     of some sort from the Zvornik SJB.  At this time all I want to do is mark

23     them for identification, and later on I'm hoping through other evidence

24     we'll be able to explain what they are and why they're relevant in this

25     case.  By showing a particular entry that will be a number of a telegram,

Page 2968

 1     hopefully we'll have a hard copy of it or we'll have a hard copy of a

 2     document that made reference to having received that particular item.  I

 3     believe those are links that can be made, but I can't make them with this

 4     witness at this time, but he is the one who has looked at the books and

 5     said, These look like the Zvornik logbooks that were in Zvornik in 1992.

 6     He's just my foundation witness for that purpose, and because that's all

 7     he can talk about, all I want to do is ask him about that and mark them

 8     for identification for right now.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So what's the Prosecution -- the Defence's

10     position?

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  We're not objecting.  We understand the -- I

12     understand now what is the position of Prosecution.  We don't have any

13     objection.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Pantelic?

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  We have no objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Marked for identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P350, marked for identification,

18     Your Honours.

19             MR. HANNIS:  And quickly if we could show the witness 3215.

20     65 ter 3215.

21        Q.    I'm sorry.  Witness, this is one of the three books that you had

22     a chance to look at during your proofing.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you recognise it as one of the communication logbooks for

25     Zvornik SJB?

Page 2969

 1        A.   Yes, from the 12th of November 1991.  It says that this was

 2     received from the B and H MUP, and it sayings who received it as well.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Could we mark that one for identification, please.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P351, marked for identification,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 8             And lastly if we could show the witness 65 ter 3211.  We did have

 9     an English translation of the first page, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Panic, this English translation says this is the expedited

11     log of outgoing open telegrams for 1991.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did you recognise this book as also being one of the

14     communication logs for Zvornik SJB?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. HANNIS:  May we mark this one for identification.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, this one seems to be specific in terms

19     of a year, 1991.  Is that a problem?

20             MR. HANNIS:  No, Your Honour.  I think there are some telegrams

21     in late 1991 that may be relevant for our purposes, and I believe --

22     again, I believe there are some that actually go beyond 1991 in this

23     logbook.  If we could go to the last page, perhaps we could see a date to

24     confirm if my memory's correct.  If we could go back one page perhaps.

25             I think this date is 5 April 1992, if I follow the sequence in

Page 2970

 1     the logbook correctly, Your Honour.  I can't go to the precise page now,

 2     but I believe that's correct, they are sequential.  You'll see this is

 3     number 1346, so I think it is 1991 going into 1992.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber's being asked to take on faith your

 5     tentative view on this matter, but inasmuch as you are asking for it to

 6     be marked, and I hear no objection, I suppose we'll mark it for

 7     identification.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you for accepting me on that, Your Honour.  I

 9     can look at my hard copy quickly, but I'm pretty sure that it did

10     transfer from 1991 to 1992.

11             I see at page 61 in this -- in the B/C/S of this document, you

12     see the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992.  Page 63 of the B/C/S.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Marked for identification.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P352, marked for identification,

15     Your Honours.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thanks to my case manager, and thank you,

17     Your Honours, and I have no further questions for the witness.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Cross-examination?

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Panic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   In early 1992 -- or, rather, towards the end of 1991, you were

24     the reserve police commander, as you said yesterday.

25        A.   No.  I was assistant commander of the reserve station, and that

Page 2971

 1     was since the 1st of September, 1991.

 2        Q.   Can I just ask you one thing.  Since this has to be translated,

 3     please wait for me to finish before you start your answer.  Thank you.

 4             The police reserve was mobilised on the 1st of September, 1991,

 5     on the orders of the then minister, Alija Mustafic, if I remember

 6     correctly.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   That would mean that according to the estimate of the then MUP in

 9     the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because I think that this order

10     pertained to the entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   So in my view, that indicated that the situation was already very

14     tense at the time; right?

15        A.   Yes.  I think that this had to do with the war going on in

16     Croatia.

17        Q.   I think that in this case it has been no dispute over the fact

18     that the SJB Zvornik was divided on the 6th of April.  However, if I

19     understood your testimony here properly, it was evident that this

20     separation was inevitable, even before that date.

21        A.   Yes.  As I said that it was either on the 23rd or 24th March the

22     deputy Adnan Karovic mobilised only the Muslim policemen, surrounded the

23     SUP building, and provided security for it.  When we learned about this,

24     we asked for a meeting to be held.  An inspector came from Tuzla.  I

25     can't remember his name at the moment.  And we had this meeting, and we

Page 2972

 1     agreed how to proceed.  However, I think that it was on the 3rd or 4th

 2     April in the village of Sapna a column of soldiers and some Muslim

 3     extremists, if I may call them that, because there was no proper army

 4     there, they killed a warrant officer second class and killed another

 5     soldier.

 6        Q.   Yes.  You spoke about this already.  Let us now go back.  I'm

 7     going to ask you questions so that we can be more expeditious.

 8             Adnan Karovic, the assistant commander who, as you said, on or

 9     around 23rd or 24th of March called upon the Muslim members of the MUP to

10     provide security of the SJB, and he omitted to call up the Serb officers.

11     Before that, was he for -- on a sick leave for a year?

12        A.   He was not an assistant.  He was a deputy commander, to begin

13     with.  And maybe a year before that or maybe even more he had come from a

14     special unit in Belgrade, and he was on a prolonged sick leave at the

15     time.

16        Q.   The Serb members of the SJB resented this move of his?

17        A.   Yes.  And that is why we asked for a meeting to be held.  That's

18     why this inspector came.  We asked for even the minister to come, but an

19     official from Tuzla came.

20        Q.   And if I understood you correctly, at that meeting you wanted an

21     explanation why this was done in that manner and why only Muslims were

22     called up and why they surrounded the SJB.  You wanted answers.  However,

23     since that failed, you left this meeting in protest.  Is that correct?

24        A.   First we left, but then someone persuaded to us come back.

25        Q.   If I understand you correctly, this inspector from Tuzla joined

Page 2973

 1     you and left the meeting because he also wanted to hear some answers.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   It was clear to you already at the time that the division of the

 4     SUP was something that was inevitable?

 5        A.   Well, it was clear to us, but we nevertheless hoped that all

 6     these disagreements could be ironed out, that the chief of the centre

 7     would come to talk to us and that we would be able to continue working

 8     together.

 9        Q.   The then SJB chief was Osman Mustafic.  He was a professional

10     policeman.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   He was an SDA candidate, but do you know that the SDS was the one

13     who supported him and that he didn't have the support of his own SDA

14     party?

15        A.   I don't know about that.

16        Q.   Do you know Alic Asim, or Asim Alic?

17        A.   No.  He had come from Belgrade some five or six months before

18     that and before the outbreak of the conflict he was the assistant

19     commander.

20        Q.   He was Dragan Spasojevic's assistant; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, it is.

22        Q.   Are you aware that on the night between the 3rd or 4th April,

23     apart from the incident in Sapna, the weapons from the public security

24     station in Zvornik was distributed to Muslims -- or, rather, to the

25     Green Berets?  Are you aware of that?

Page 2974

 1        A.   Well, there was stories going around at the time that on that

 2     evening when they surrounded the SUP that weapons were being distributed.

 3     However, all those senior officers were in the depot, including the

 4     chief, and I don't know anything about that.

 5        Q.   Do you know that the Patriotic League, as an illegal armed

 6     formation in Zvornik, was established in that town on the 26th of July,

 7     1991?

 8        A.   I don't know about the exact date, but I know that both this

 9     organisation and the Green Berets were established in Zvornik.

10        Q.   Do you know that approximately at that time on Mount Godus a

11     Green Beret unit was formed, and there is even a monument standing there

12     now?  Do you know anything about that?

13        A.   Yes, I know that there is a monument now.  I didn't go there

14     before.  I heard stories, but I don't know.

15        Q.   Do you know that at the time when the Patriotic League was formed

16     and Green Berets as, shall we say, illegal armed formations of the Party

17     of Democratic Action, that the Muslims also had set up a Crisis Staff?

18     Do you know about that?

19        A.   I knew about this Crisis Staff, but I don't know who was on it.

20     I know that Asim Zuber was the president of the SDA party.

21        Q.   Are you familiar with Sakib Halilovic, aka Kibe?

22        A.   Yes, I knew him.

23        Q.   Do you know that he was appointed commander of the Crisis Staff?

24        A.   No, I don't know that.

25        Q.   Do you know that every village in the municipality after

Page 2975

 1     July 1991 following the formation of the Patriotic League as an illegal

 2     armed formation for Zvornik, that each village in this municipality that

 3     was populated by Muslim received a plan of deployment and engagement?

 4        A.   I know nothing in particular about that.  I only heard about

 5     that.  We did nothing about that, because no orders were received to that

 6     effect.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Have you -- have you ever heard of Captain Almir who

 8     commanded the Muslim units?  He was from Kula Grad, and he was fighting

 9     there in April 1992 for about three weeks.

10        A.   I've heard of him.

11        Q.   Do you know that he had come to Zvornik way back in December 1991

12     in order to set up military units, to arm them, to train them, and to

13     build fortifications?

14        A.   No.  Maybe senior officers knew about this, but I didn't.

15        Q.   Do you know that this Muslim Crisis Staff and members of those

16     units had a plan designed to blow up the dam?

17        A.   No, I don't know about that, but it's possible.  I heard about

18     the Crveni Mulj dam and that some preparations were made, but I

19     personally didn't know anything about it.

20        Q.   Do you know that another Crisis Staff was formed at the level of

21     the municipality?  The former one that we discussed was the war

22     Crisis Staff set up by the Patriotic League.  However, there was another

23     Crisis Staff headed by Abdulah Pasic, the president of the municipality

24     of the time.  Mustafic was there.  The defence was covered by

25     Alija Kapicic [phoen].  There was also --

Page 2976

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please slowly read the names.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard about that, and I

 3     heard about that there was a rift that took place there.  There were

 4     different factions, and there were some personal clashes between all of

 5     them.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you know by any chance when this Crisis Staff of theirs was

 8     established, approximately?

 9        A.   No.  I don't know exactly.

10        Q.   Do you know that this Crisis Staff had introduced a curfew in

11     Zvornik?

12        A.   Not officially, but there were some stories going around that

13     these reserve Muslim policemen had green berets, that when they were

14     working there they put their green berets on and that they were

15     patrolling the streets, but I don't know anything in particular about

16     that.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, when you reach a convenient point.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I have just two more questions,

19     and I've finished with this.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you know that a Serbian Crisis Staff that

21     proclaimed the state of war was also set up?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   How long after the establishment of that was -- or how long after

24     the 8th of April was the interim government established?

25        A.   I don't know exactly.  I wasn't involved in either the

Page 2977

 1     Crisis Staff or the interim government.  Therefore, I have no

 2     information.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's convenient at this point to adjourn.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  We will resume in 20 minutes.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just for the record, Your Honours, we are joined by

10     Mr. Cvijetic in this session.  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And my I just add, welcome back into the

12     courtroom.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

14             MR. CVIJETIC:  Thank you.  Thank you.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I proceed, Your Honours?

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Panic, let us move on to the 6th of April.

20     On the 6th of April, the members of the MUP who were of Serb ethnicity

21     separated from the SJB Zvornik and went to Karakaj.  Isn't that right?

22        A.   Yes, that's right.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Zecevic please be asked to speak into

24     the microphone.

25        Q.   Mr. Mijic, who was a judge at the time, proclaims himself chief

Page 2978

 1     of MUP.  Mr. Mijic, who was a judge at the time, is proclaimed chief of

 2     the MUP; right?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.  He worked in court, but it wasn't on the 6th

 4     of April that he was appointed or proclaimed the chief of the Serbian

 5     station, but it was a bit before that.  That's when he just took over

 6     that duty.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Dragan Spasojevic is the commander; right?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   Dragan Spasojevic also worked for the police a bit over a year.

10        A.   Yes.  He worked while there was a joint SUP there, but when

11     Mustafic Osman was appointed chief, he was appointed commander.

12        Q.   In professional terms he was a medical technician; right?

13        A.   Yes, and I think that he studied economics in Greece.

14        Q.   I think that you said that he studied economics in the town of

15     Brcko, not --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   On the 6th of April, you were established in the Alhos building;

18     right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   Members of the paramilitaries came there, Arkan's men, and

21     Seselj's men, if I remember correctly.

22        A.   Yes.  We found some of them there and others arrived when they

23     got out.

24        Q.   I think that you stated somewhere that some of them wore blue

25     camouflage uniforms of the MUP of Serbia and that they even had rank

Page 2979

 1     insignia on the uniforms and that a certain Peja had the rank insignia of

 2     a general; right?

 3        A.   Well, they did have some kind of rank insignia.  I'm not sure it

 4     was that of a general, but that's what they called him.

 5        Q.   These were certainly significantly different uniforms from the

 6     ones that you had and that you were issued and that you wore?

 7        A.   Yes.  They were blue with a bit of a whitish pattern, newer ones,

 8     and the material, the fabric, was of higher quality.  Things like that.

 9        Q.   However, do you not know whether these were official uniforms of

10     the MUP of Serbia, or do you know that?

11        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  We assumed, since they had come

12     from Serbia and said that they were members of Arkan's unit, that they

13     belonged.

14        Q.   During the fighting in Zvornik on the 8th of April, you, that is

15     to say the active-duty members of the police, did not take part in any

16     fighting; right?

17        A.   We did not.

18        Q.   Your assignment was to hold certain check-points and secure

19     certain vital points in town; right?

20        A.   Yes.  After this unit, Arkan's unit entered town.  We followed

21     them on buses, and by every important landmark two or three policemen

22     would be assigned to be on guard duty here or there, depending on the

23     landmark involved.

24        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Panic, that check-points existed in 1991 as

25     well?  Do you remember that?

Page 2980

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, on the bridge and facing Serbia, and I think on

 2     Vidakova Njiva as well.

 3        Q.   These check-points in 1991, of course that was at the time while

 4     there was still a joint MUP, and they were set up.  These check-points

 5     were set up on orders from your then chief -- or, rather, I assume that

 6     it was done on the orders of the BH MUP; right?

 7        A.   For the most part, most of them were joint checkpoints.  One

 8     policeman would, say, be a Muslim, and the other one a Serb.  So it was

 9     the end of 1991, there were check-points around residential buildings so

10     that the actual residents would be sort of guarding the building

11     involved.

12        Q.   So this was some kind of self-organisation of the people.  This

13     had nothing to do with the police; right?  I mean the guarding of these

14     residential buildings.

15        A.   No.  No.

16        Q.   Tell me, do you know of the action called Punkt 91 where the

17     police together with the army, the JNA, held check-points in the

18     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Was that the case where you were?

19        A.   No, I don't think so.  I know that there was a company of the

20     army that was deployed and training reservists in Celopek and another in

21     Branjevo, but the police, well --

22        Q.   Well, these check-points in 1991 that you held, you say one was

23     at the bridge and the other one was, I don't know where exactly, in the

24     territory of Zvornik.  What did the police do at these check-points?  Did

25     they ask people to show IDs?  Did they take weapons from people and the

Page 2981

 1     like?

 2        A.   This was primarily done by the traffic people.  These were

 3     traffic controls.  Already then there were traffic checks in Mali Zvornik

 4     opposite us, and where we were vehicles were checked to see what they

 5     were transporting, because at that time people were already saying that

 6     weapons were being transported.  So, yes, that's what they did.

 7        Q.   I would be interested in the following:  These check-points from

 8     1991 that were held at that time, did they significantly differ in any

 9     way from the check-points in 1992, that were established by the police in

10     1992?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes.  This was a regular service, as it were, in the joint

12     organs in 1991.  It is possible that somewhere in some villages there

13     were some check-points where -- that we did not know about when Serb or

14     Muslim citizens would organise some kind of self-defence.

15        Q.   You do not understand what I'm saying.  I'm not interested in the

16     composition --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- of the employees who were at the check-points.  I'm interested

19     in the way they acted and how they exercised their authority in 1991 and

20     in 1992.  Was there any difference involved?

21        A.   In 1991 it was mostly checks of persons and goods.

22        Q.   Please go ahead.

23        A.   And regular police work.

24        Q.   What about 1992?

25        A.   In 1992 there were checks of the population that was moving.  For

Page 2982

 1     example, if it was a Serb check-point, they would check where Muslims

 2     were going, then they were given permits and things like that.

 3        Q.   If I understand you correctly, in 1991 at check-points people

 4     were supposed to show their IDs; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  However, this was just in order to know who these persons

 6     were and where they were going.

 7        Q.   Very well.  So after the 8th of April you were providing security

 8     at facilities, and you held these check-points for the most part, and as

 9     far as I understood what you said in your testimony yesterday, on the 2nd

10     or 3rd day you actually withdrew from Zvornik and you went to Celopek

11     because you thought it was safer there.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You went to Celopek because these troops that took part in the

14     takeover of Zvornik, the paramilitaries, as we've been calling them here,

15     and that is what they were, because they had withdrawn; right?

16        A.   Yes.  We heard that the Crisis Staff had had a quarrel with

17     Arkan's and Seselj's men, that they withdrew to Radaljska Banja, to

18     Mali Zvornik.  And then we saw the TO withdrew from the check-point

19     facing Devic, and we decided to cross the bridge to Mali Zvornik.  We

20     went to Alhos and from Alhos to Celopek.

21        Q.   In fact.  At that moment Zvornik remained --

22        A.   Empty.

23        Q.   Empty.  Do you know, perhaps, or have you heard perhaps what this

24     quarrel was all about between the Crisis Staff and the paramilitaries?

25        A.   I don't know exactly.  Some said it had to do with payments,

Page 2983

 1     others that it had to do with disagreements in combat operations.  I

 2     don't know really.

 3        Q.   Payment?  Payments for their participation?

 4        A.   Probably, yes.

 5        Q.   Tell me, at a moment on the 9th and 10th, how many of you active

 6     police members were there who had gone through police training, if I can

 7     put it that way?

 8        A.   Of Serb ethnicity?  Either 24 or 25.

 9        Q.   Please have a look at this document, 65 ter 2121.  That is a

10     document dated the 21st of April, 1992.

11             MR. HANNIS:  For the record, I believe that has an exhibit number

12     now, P325.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see it, Mr. Panic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You have, therefore, had a look at this document.  You see that

17     on the 21st of April -- well, this is a list of active policemen of the

18     milicija on the 21st.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And it was signed by Milos Pantelic, the then chief.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the document

22     scrolled down a bit.  Could you please scroll the document down just a

23     little bit so that the witness could see the signature.

24             [In English] I'm sorry, could we have the documents lowered down

25     so the witness can see the -- thank you very much.

Page 2984

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] You see that this was signed by Milos Pantelic;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   It seems --

 5        A.   The 29th.

 6        Q.   On the 21st of April.  So two days later there were --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  Speakers are overlapping.

 8     It is impossible to follow two speakers at the same time.  Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Panic, please just wait for my question to finish and then

11     answer it.

12        A.   I do apologise.  I don't know when the interpretation is over.

13        Q.   Look at the transcript and when the letters stop, then you can

14     start answering.

15        A.   All right.

16        Q.   Tell me, after a while yet another paramilitary group showed up,

17     and you called them Gogic's men.  When did they roughly arrive in

18     Zvornik?

19        A.   They arrived -- well, I found out about that later.  I didn't --

20     well, they came towards the beginning.  They entered Zvornik.  However,

21     for a while they went somewhere.  I don't know whether it was in the

22     territory of the municipality of Zvornik or they returned to Loznica, but

23     yet again they came back when Milos Pantelic came to become chief.

24        Q.   That was sometime in -- sometime in mid-may; right?

25        A.   Roughly.

Page 2985

 1        Q.   And then when they came, the then chief, Pantelic, and his --

 2     Vasilic, Marinko Vasilic was the commander at the time; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   The two of them, Milos Pantelic and Marinko Vasilic, I assume,

 5     with the support of this transitional government in Zvornik proclaimed

 6     these men of Gogic's as MUP members; right?

 7        A.   Yes.  They were attached and they were given uniforms of MUP

 8     members and they received salaries from the MUP as well.  Well, they were

 9     on the same payroll that we were on.

10        Q.   So there is this one group of people who came from Serbia, and

11     the chief, with the support of the transitional government, dresses them

12     up in uniforms, attaches them to the MUP, and he gives them some kind of

13     powers so that they can do police work.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And he places them on the same payroll that you were on as active

16     policemen, as true members of the MUP; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   This transitional government paid salaries to you and them;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   After a while, these men of Gogic's actually start doing police

22     work, whereas you real policemen, active-duty policemen, are sent -- I

23     mean you as true MUP officials, you are sent to the front line; right?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   So that was the reason why you had conflict and the fact that you

Page 2986

 1     rebelled against this Marinko Vasilic.

 2        A.   Yes, this was our dissatisfaction because we were not actually

 3     doing what was our job, whereas persons who were not properly trained for

 4     that kind of work stayed in town.

 5        Q.   I have just received a suggestion from my colleague that there is

 6     an erroneous recording of your answer.  Line 49.  I asked you the

 7     following:  After a while these men of Gogic's actually started doing

 8     police work, whereas you real policemen, active-duty policemen, policemen

 9     who were true MUP officials, you were sent to the front line; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             Tell me, these men of Gogic's, if I can put it this way, they

13     were individuals who were on the brink or perhaps outlaws as such.

14        A.   Most of them, I think.  Even from prison.  And quite a few of

15     them had been at the Croatian front line.

16        Q.   We will get back to that later.  I would now like to show you

17     several documents.  These are documents that you discussed with my

18     colleague yesterday.  The first one, P329.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can it please be called up.

20        Q.   My colleague put questions to you about this document, and he

21     wasn't interested in its substance that much.  He was interested in the

22     date and the signature, whereas the contents of the document are

23     precisely what I'm interested in, and I'd like us to discuss that.

24             I have a very poor image on my monitor.  It's all in blue.  I

25     don't know what the case is with you, Mr. Panic.

Page 2987

 1        A.   Well, I can barely make something out.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Do you have the document in hard copy?  I would

 3     appreciate very much.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may be able to read this.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You will now receive a hard copy of the document.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Mr. Hannis, I would need also 330 and 331, P330 and

 8     31.  Thank you.  I appreciate it.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Right, Mr. Panic.  You have reviewed the

10     document yesterday.  Can you please focus on the substance for a moment.

11     This is a daily report from the Zvornik municipality public security

12     station and was sent to the CSB Bijeljina, which was supposed to forward

13     it on to the CSB in Sarajevo.  The document relates to the 2nd of June,

14     1992.  It was signed by Chief Milos Pantelic.

15             The only event that was of interest to the security situation

16     mentioned in the document is the event in the villages of Kovacevici and

17     Vitnica; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can we look at P330 now.  This is another document that you've

20     also looked at.  The usher will provide with you a hard copy now.  We

21     will see ours on the monitor.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just add something?  The

23     report says there were combat activities in the villages of Kovacevici

24     and Vitnica between the Muslim extremists and members the Serbian army.

25     Nowhere in this document is it stated that a police unit was involved and

Page 2988

 1     participated in that.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Right.  My question had to do with something else.

 4             Please look at P330 now.  This is a document bearing a subsequent

 5     date.  You've also reviewed it yesterday.  It is again a report from the

 6     Zvornik public security station which states that it should be sent to

 7     Sarajevo through the Bijeljina CSB, and it relates to the 3rd of June,

 8     1992.  Again it was signed by Chief Pantelic.  The event for the 3rd of

 9     June mentioned here was the one that took place in the settlement of

10     Djevanje.  Do you see that?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Let us also look at P331, which is a daily report for the 4th of

13     June.  This is another document you reviewed yesterday.

14             You can see that it is a daily report on current events of

15     interest to the security situation in the area covered by the

16     Zvornik SJB, and the request is that it be sent to Sarajevo through the

17     Bijeljina CSB.

18             The document states that in the past 24 hours there had been no

19     combat operations or, rather, events of interest to security; is that

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   I think that the Prosecutor showed you another one dated the

23     7th of June, 1992, which relates to that same date and which also states

24     that there had been no events of interest to security.

25             Let me ask you this:  In the course of your testimony, you stated

Page 2989

 1     that on the 1st of June, 1992, on the orders of Marinko Vasilic, you went

 2     to Bijelo Brdo.

 3        A.   Bijeli Potok.

 4        Q.   Bijeli Potok.  You were tasked with assisting in the process of

 5     placing individuals of Muslim ethnicity on buses in order for them to be

 6     transported to Memici, which was under the control of the Muslim forces.

 7     All this was a follow-up on an agreement reached by politicians as

 8     explained to you on that same day by Vasilic when he tasked you with it;

 9     is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you repeat your answer.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Roughly how many, in your view, were transported on these trucks?

14        A.   Unless I'm mistaken, between 5 to 6.000.

15        Q.   At a later date you learnt that the exchange had been organised

16     for allegedly 4.000 Serbs who had been held at a stadium in Tuzla and

17     that this prompted the exchange exercise.  Is that right?

18        A.   I learnt subsequently that around 700 men had been detained at

19     the technical centre in order to be exchanged.

20        Q.   No.  That was not my question.  What I'm asking you about is that

21     it seems to me that you said at one point that you subsequently learnt in

22     Belgrade, in the course of the testimony of another witness, that the

23     exchange had been prompted by the fact that 4.000 Serbs had been detained

24     at the stadium in Tuzla and that for that reason the Serbs were supposed

25     to be exchanged for the Muslims.

Page 2990

 1        A.   I said that Marinko Vasilic said at the trial in Belgrade that in

 2     the staff he had learned that the 700 individuals which were detained in

 3     the technical centre were supposed to be exchanged for the individuals

 4     held at the stadium at Tuzla, whereas it did not involve the women and

 5     children who had already been transported to Memici.  It didn't have

 6     anything to do with them.  It had to do with these roughly 700

 7     individuals.

 8        Q.   Right.  Thank you for this clarification.

 9             These 700 individuals who were supposed to be exchanged were

10     taken to the technical school at Karakaj, which, as you've already

11     explained, was under the control of the Karakaj company.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Your testimony at page 36, lines 19 and 20, states that when it

14     came to Potok you were standing by the truck and you heard shooting.

15     However, the army which was this charge of the action did not allow you

16     to approach the area.  Rather, you were told to remain by the truck.

17        A.   Well, it's not that they did not allow me to approach the area.

18     Rather, as I moved to get there, they told me to stay away because the

19     army was engaged in shooting above the school.  And since I didn't have

20     the authority to be there, I went back to my place and some four or five

21     days later I heard that five or six individuals had been killed there.

22        Q.   On that evening you returned and reported to Marinko Vasilic

23     about having completed your task.  You said that Miko Miljanovic was

24     present there as well.  I think this is what you said yesterday; is that

25     right?

Page 2991

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Yesterday at page 38, lines 19 to 25, you said that two to three

 3     days later you heard that at the time when you were present in

 4     Bijeli Potok the army had killed five or six Muslim civilians.  Is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes.  And at that point I tied in the shooting that I had

 7     witnessed with this event.

 8        Q.   Your testimony yesterday was that in that same period, that's to

 9     say, two to three days after the 1st of June, you heard that mass-scale

10     murders were taking place at the technical school in Karakaj; is that

11     right?

12        A.   Yes.  And that individuals were being taken out by trucks to

13     Klanac --

14             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: To the slaughter

15     house.

16             THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues]... and that that's

17     where murders were being carried out.

18        Q.   When you say the slaughterhouse, you're referring to that --

19        A.   Yes, Gero's Slaughterhouse.  That's the slaughterhouse that

20     belonged to Gero Salihovic, I believe.  It was in the field by the Drina

21     River.

22        Q.   In the course of these two or three days the 4 or 5.000 Muslims

23     were being transported, 700 individuals were detained at the school in

24     Karakaj in order to be exchanged, five or six civilians were killed on

25     the 1st of June by the army in Bijeli Potok, and mass-scale killings were

Page 2992

 1     taking place at the technical school in Karakaj and partly at the

 2     slaughterhouse.

 3             At the same time as we were to see from the reports sent by

 4     Marinko Vasilic, there were no events taking place of security interest,

 5     save for the 2nd or the 3rd, I believe, where he said some fighting took

 6     place.  However, nowhere does he mention any of the facts that we were

 7     able to establish right now, thanks to you, and which happened precisely

 8     during that period and in the way in which you described.

 9             Tell me, in your opinion is it possible that these would not

10     be -- or that this would not be information of security interest?

11        A.   I don't presume so, but he stated the same even before during the

12     Belgrade trial, that as soon as he learnt that the army was involved and

13     that the whole process was aimed at exchanging people, he did not take

14     any steps because did he not believe that he should interfere.  Since it

15     was the army that brought them over there, that guarded them, and since

16     the objective of the exercise was the exchange, he didn't have a part to

17     play in it.

18        Q.   If that is the explanation, then how can we account for the fact

19     that he is reporting about combat activities, which evidently involved

20     the army, but omitted to report on these events which are definitely of

21     security interest since civilians were victims at the hands of the army,

22     since mass-scale killings were taking place, since large numbers of

23     individuals were being transported to Muslim-held areas?  I don't see how

24     these facts cannot be of security interest.  I'm not interested in

25     Vasilic's opinion.  I'm interested in yours.  Based on your experience as

Page 2993

 1     a policeman, is this information the sort of information that would be

 2     considered of security interest and which should be reported to the CSB

 3     or not?

 4        A.   Under all the rules that were in force previously and now, they

 5     would be of security interest.  And I'm referring to the rules that

 6     existed before the war and during the war.  They -- this sort of

 7     information would have to be reported.  I don't know whether this was an

 8     agreement or an instruction from the army that this sort of information

 9     should not be reported on.  This is something I don't know.  All the

10     officers were aware of it.  The barracks was there.

11        Q.   Very well.  So this information was not passed on.  We have here

12     the bulletins of daily events in this case file relating to those dates.

13     Those were compiled by the Ministry of the Interior, and of course no

14     events that we mention now do feature in those reports.  I suppose you

15     haven't seen these bulletins.

16        A.   I haven't even seen those who were sent.  The chief would just

17     designate this to be sent to the communications centre.

18        Q.   For reference, I would like to just say to this Trial Chamber

19     that I'm talking about the bulletin dated the 3rd of June, 1992, on daily

20     events compiled by the MUP.  It's 65 ter 971.  The same one dated 4th of

21     June.  That's 65 ter 972.  The one dated the 5th of June is 65 ter 1019.

22     And the one dated the 7th of June is 65 ter 973.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, with regard to those documents, I don't

24     know if there's a motion to admit them.  Now, do I have an objection

25     about foundation.  They're typed.  I don't see a signature.  I don't see

Page 2994

 1     anything other than a three-digit number.  And given the fact that the

 2     reports from the Zvornik SJB were being sent to Bijeljina with a request

 3     that they be forwarded to Sarajevo, the fact that a report for events on

 4     the 3rd of June may not have appeared in the bulletin from Sarajevo on

 5     the 4th is not necessarily significant because there may have been a

 6     delay in Bijeljina receiving it and then forwarding it on to Sarajevo.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  This -- these daily reports mention which reports

 8     have not been received up to the -- up to the point when the -- when the

 9     daily report of the MUP was created, and they list not received from,

10     let's say, CSB Trebinje, not received from CSB Banja Luka.  But in all

11     these cases it is evident that they received the reports from CSB

12     Bijelina in all these.  That's why I think it's relevant, and I wanted --

13     we can show -- we can show the documents to the witness if Your Honours

14     pleases.  I don't -- I don't see the problem with that.

15             MR. HANNIS:  I don't think it will help to show it to this

16     witness because I don't think he can comment on that.  But in 971 and

17     972, maybe it's not in the English translation, but I don't see anything

18     indicating that a report was received from CSB Bijeljina.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  At the -- at the very end, the last paragraph of

20     all reports usually contains the reports from the following CSBs have not

21     been received.  In case it doesn't, then -- then it means that all

22     reports have been received.  If you check --

23             MR. HANNIS:  And I'm looking at --

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers]... the daily bulletins --

25             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  I'm looking at what's translated as

Page 2995

 1     daily report number 101, dated the 3rd of June in Sarajevo, the last

 2     paragraph says, "The centre has not received security reports from the

 3     following SJBs ..."  And I don't see Zvornik on there, and I don't see

 4     reference --

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's exactly my point.  What I'm trying to say is

 6     that obviously they received the report from Zvornik.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, but given the evidence about Zvornik and the

 8     difficulties in transmitting communications to Sarajevo at this point in

 9     time, the report from Zvornik about that date may have been delayed by a

10     day or two.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Mr. Hannis, if the report had been delayed and was

12     not received in the MUP on that particular date, then they would list at

13     the very end that they haven't received the report from Zvornik.  If they

14     haven't listed as missing, it's obvious that they received it.  The point

15     of the matter is that the report, which we saw -- which you showed to the

16     witness before and I showed the witness today does not contain these

17     information which this witness was testifying about and which his

18     superior who was supposed to transfer this information did not.  That

19     is -- that is the point.  And I believe these daily bulletins were

20     offered as Prosecution exhibits.  I don't -- I don't understand why you

21     are objecting to admission of these documents.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I'm hoping they will be, but I think we

23     need more foundation about them to get them in at this point, unless

24     Defence is willing to stipulate that these are the official reports from

25     the republican MUP.

Page 2996

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, with all due respect, I believe

 2     these four reports have a much bigger nexus with the testimony of this

 3     client -- this witness and the -- and the documents which have been shown

 4     to him than some of the documents we have been admitted previously during

 5     the direct examination of this witness.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, my concern is that the argument being

 7     made based on this document is not necessarily supported by the evidence

 8     so far.  Exhibit P329 is the report from Chief Pantelic, dated the 3rd of

 9     June from Zvornik.  We don't know what time of day that was sent.  The

10     report -- daily report number 101, which is 65 ter 971 is dated 3 June in

11     Sarajevo.  I don't know if that report was written at 6.00 in the morning

12     on the 3rd of June or at midnight.  So if it was written 6.00 in the

13     morning, that may have been written before P329 was sent from Zvornik.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Surely, Mr. Hannis, you would not dispute that in

15     case the report came late, it would be reported on the 4th, and we

16     offered the 4th as well.  So as it's not contained in the 4th, the report

17     for the 4th June, it is obvious that both reports were received at the

18     time when they were received, and they didn't contain anything, as we saw

19     that they don't contain any kind of information.  Thank you.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Now, Mr. Zecevic is talking about 65 ter 0972, which

21     purports to be daily report number 117.  That's the day following what

22     was listed as daily report number 101.  I don't know if there are

23     16 reports between June 3rd and June the 4th.  That's why I have some

24     question about the foundation and authenticity of these particular

25     exhibits.  Also this one dated June the 4th, I don't see anywhere in it

Page 2997

 1     where it listed which municipalities they received reports from and which

 2     they didn't.  There seem to be no reference.

 3             And finally, I would say Exhibit 65 ter 1019, which the Defence

 4     is proposing to send, does contain on page 4 of the English translation

 5     information from the Bijeljina CSB which contains information about the

 6     2 June events in the village of Kovacevici and Liplje, where two soldiers

 7     were killed and five were wounded.  So that indicates that if it's coming

 8     through Bijeljina CSB, there's at least a three- or four-day delay.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, that's precisely why we offered 65 ter 973,

10     which is the 7th of June, so in order to be on the safe side.

11             JUDGE HALL:  We will admit them and have them marked as exhibits.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Should I read the -- again the documents?  65 ter

13     971, 972, 973, and 1019.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Will become Exhibits 1D68, 1D69, 1D70, and 1D71,

15     Your Honours.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Panic, sorry, but this is the procedure we have to follow.

18     Can you please look at document 65 ter 89.  That's an order -- or,

19     rather, an instruction issued by the Ministry of the Interior on the 18th

20     of April, 1992.  It was distributed to all CSBs within the ministry of

21     Republika Srpska.  That means Sarajevo, Banja Luka, Trebinje, Bijelina,

22     and Doboj.

23             Please look at this document.  It's 150/92, dated 18th of April.

24     It has been ordered that all daily reports and all other security related

25     events are sent by telefax to certain numbers, and it was signed by the

Page 2998

 1     minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic.  Can you see that?

 2        A.   Yes, I can.

 3        Q.   You as an experienced police officer, know that the duty of

 4     sending daily periodical and annual report was something that was always

 5     there in the police and will always be part of the police work?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Have you ever seen this document before?

 8        A.   No, I haven't.  It probably reached the desk of the chief, but as

 9     you say, from experience I know that reports must be sent about any

10     significant event.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have -- [Overlapping speakers]...

12             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... admitted into

14     evidence, please.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D72.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   All right.  Mr. Panic, let's go back to the issue of the chief.

19     You said that Mr. Mijic remained in his position for about six weeks,

20     that is to say the chief of the Zvornik SJB, and that after that the

21     Crisis Staff appointed Milos Pantelic to that post; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Then for a while Spasojevic carried out this duty as

24     an acting commander and then he was replaced by Marinko Vasilic; is that

25     right?

Page 2999

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I think that yesterday when my learned colleague Mr. Hannis was

 3     questioning you, it was established that Mr. Marinko Vasilic became chief

 4     on the night between the 8th and 9th of June; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And he remained chief all the way to 27th of July when eventually

 7     the minister and the Ministry of the Interior appointed the chief of the

 8     Zvornik public security station which was Mico Lokancevic.  And from then

 9     on you started functioning in a sort of normal way, because on that day

10     all these paramilitary units were either expelled or arrested; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.  Let me just add to -- a couple of things.  On the 27th of

13     July, he resigned, but he remained there until the 2nd of August.  Mico

14     came on the 2nd of August, and that is when the hand-over of duty took

15     place.

16        Q.   I was exactly intending to show you the documents 65 ter 335,

17     which pertains to this.

18             While we are waiting, let me ask you this.  Mr. Mico Lokancevic,

19     if I understood you correctly, was a police officer and used to work

20     before the war at the Kalesija SJB.  Then he came to Zvornik towards the

21     end of July or early August in 1992 for the first time; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.  When he came to take over the duty of the chief, that's

23     when he came there first.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you saw this document -- or, rather, this

25     minutes.  That's P341.

Page 3000

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

 2        Q.   You saw it yesterday.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   This record refers to the hand-over of duty which is completely

 5     consistent with the law and the rules as far as you know.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Whenever there is a hand-over of duty between two chiefs, both

 8     before the war and thereafter, this kind of record would be made; is that

 9     right?

10        A.   Yes.  And here you see that there were listed here members of the

11     commission who carried out this hand-over.

12        Q.   You testified yesterday about this on page 51, lines 16 to 19.

13     Essentially, until the appointment of Mico Lokancevic as the chief of the

14     MUP, all the previous chiefs starting from the beginning of April were

15     appointed by either the Crisis Staff or the interim government --

16     government; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.  I think that was the case.

18        Q.   As an experienced police officer, you know that under normal

19     circumstances the chief of the public security station is normally

20     appointed by the minister of interior at the recommendation or proposal

21     of the chief of the SJB.

22             Can we now see document 65 ter 96, please.

23             I'm sorry, your answer was not recorded to my last question.  I

24     asked you as an experienced police officer you know that under normal

25     circumstances the chief of the public security station is appointed by

Page 3001

 1     the ministry of the -- minister of the interior at the proposal of the

 2     S -- of CSB centre, and I think you replied affirmatively to this

 3     question.  Is that right?  What's your answer?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I do apologise, but yes, you see, we have to deal

 6     with this slowly so that everything can be interpreted.  I'm not all that

 7     skillful yet.

 8             Number 96.  That's the 65 ter number of the document I requested.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm just giving the witness time to read the

10     document.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] You see this document, this is a decision of the

12     minister of the interior, dated the 25th of April, and it refers to the

13     law on state administration and the Law on Internal Affairs, the relevant

14     provisions of the law, and in paragraph 2 --

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the document scrolled

16     down a bit so that you can have a look.  That's right.

17        Q.   In paragraph 2 it says that chiefs of centres of security

18     services are duty bound to obtain prior approval of the minister of the

19     interior before employees are designated to the following jobs.  Bullet

20     point number 3 inter alia that is chief of CSB.  Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the document

23     scrolled down a bit.

24        Q.    You will see that it is signed by the minister of the interior,

25     Mico Stanisic.

Page 3002

 1             Tell me, Mr. Panic, to the best of your knowledge as an

 2     experienced policeman, is this the way things were usually done, that the

 3     minister has to give his approval for the appointment of chiefs of public

 4     security stations; right?

 5        A.   That's the way it was before, and it is only natural that that is

 6     the way it is today.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have a number --

 9     or, rather, I would like to tender this document into evidence.  It is

10     the decision of the Ministry of the Interior, dated the 25th of April,

11     1992.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D73, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, if you're about to move on to something

15     else, this is the time for the break.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.  Okay, thank you very

17     much.

18             [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now we're going to have a break,

19     sir.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Please continue, Mr. Zecevic.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 3003

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Panic, yesterday the Prosecutor showed you

 2     and you commented on a document P338, and in that document it's a report

 3     of inspector Dragan Andan -- Dragomir Andan, that is, and Danilo Vuckovic

 4     made at the SJB Brcko and the SJB Zvornik and partly at the SJB Bijeljina

 5     between the 29th of May and the 12th of June, and the Prosecutor read to

 6     you something from page 4.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see page 4 on

 8     the screen.  P338.

 9        Q.   We'll just wait a little bit.  Do you remember that you commented

10     on this document yesterday?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Let's look at page 4, which Mr. Hannis read to you.  Page 4,

13     pease, the first paragraph.  Mr. Hannis read out to you one sentence and

14     then he skipped one, whereas I would like us to read the sentence that

15     was left out.  It says here, beginning with:

16             "Namely, the police employees are directly providing physical

17     security of facilities that are of vital importance and otherwise

18     important in the area of the Zvornik municipality, then there was an

19     attempt to find a solution through the government, but there was no

20     understanding."

21             Mr. Panic, when one says facilities of vital importance and other

22     facilities, one means primarily, I suppose, hospitals, the post office

23     building, the municipal building, the radio transformer station, and so

24     on; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3004

 1        Q.   They do not have in mind anything like detention centres or

 2     prisons or collection centres?

 3        A.   I don't think so, because the prison wardens and the security

 4     guards at prisons were specially appointed.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  When you say they were appointed specially, yesterday

 6     you looked at a document whereby a decision of the Crisis Staff, some of

 7     the reservists were transferred to Territorial Defence.  These were

 8     police reservists.  Do you remember that document?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   In your opinion, is the thesis well founded that some of those

11     police reservists who were resubordinated to the Territorial Defence were

12     involved in securing some of these facilities?  I mean, the prisons and

13     prison facilities.

14        A.   At the beginning when the prisons were established, it was only

15     the military and the paramilitary forces and the Territorial Defence that

16     secured them.  So before the army was constituted, at the beginning the

17     prisons were established and only the military police secured them.  And

18     then later on the active-duty policemen took over that duty from them.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let us comment events that took place in late July

20     1992.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

22     65 ter 311.

23        Q.   Please have a look at this document, Mr. Panic.  It's a document

24     from the security services centre in Bijeljina, dated the 20th of July,

25     1992, and it's information on the security situation on the territory of

Page 3005

 1     Zvornik Serb municipality.

 2             Dragan Adnan was appointed chief of the CSB Bijeljina after the

 3     report of the 17th of June, 1992, which we just saw.  At that moment,

 4     some problems in the operation of the Ministry of the Interior in the

 5     territory of the CSB Bijeljina territory, especially in Bijeljina and

 6     Brcko, were pointed out, and here he reviews the security situation in

 7     the territory of the Zvornik municipality.  And he lists here three

 8     paramilitary units, Zuco, Pivarski, and Niski.  Can you see that here in

 9     the middle of the text, in the middle of the page?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And later on in the last paragraph on the first page he says that

12     Zuco's unit numbers around 100 men armed with infantry weapons, and they

13     also have heavy machine-guns and three anti-aircraft missiles built onto

14     trucks.  Do you confirm this information which was sent?

15        A.   Yes.  They also had three-barrel guns that were also installed.

16        Q.   If we could please move on to the last page now, the last page of

17     this document so that you can see the conclusion.

18             Can you see the last paragraph of this conclusion?  It says here:

19             "We estimate that the current activity of these paramilitary

20     units might cause great consequences for the security of the Serbian

21     municipality of Zvornik.  And in order to prevent this, we suggest that a

22     special unit of the Republika Srpska MUP be deployed on the territory of

23     Zvornik in order to eliminate all paramilitary formations, to strengthen

24     the legal authorities and create conditions for the stabilising of the

25     security situation on the above territory."

Page 3006

 1             So you've seen this conclusion.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   This was sent to the minister of the interior of the Serbian

 4     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the under secretary of the

 5     national security service.

 6             Please tell me, I saw in the transcript yesterday that there was

 7     again something not clear about the status of the special unit of the

 8     MUP.  That was the special brigade of the MUP; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  It was Milenko Karisik who was at the head of that unit.

10        Q.   And that special brigade of the MUP was, let me put it that way,

11     a special MUP unit which is linked to the seat of the MUP; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And such a unit also existed in the MUP of the Socialist Republic

14     of Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.  It also existed previously.

16        Q.   And it still exists today, I suppose.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And this special brigade of the Ministry of the Interior performs

19     Special Police tasks in the territory where the need arises for it to be

20     engaged and when there are such problems with which the local units and

21     public security stations or centres, security services centres, cannot

22     handle; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  They are trained for that kind of work.  They are also

24     technically equipped, whereas ordinary policemen are not.

25        Q.   And as I understood your testimony until now, that was the

Page 3007

 1     situation that were faced with in Zvornik; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Let us recall, the active-duty policemen were less than 30 in

 4     number, and only Zuca's group numbered more than 100 members; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  More than 100 members, because local criminals were also

 7     joining them, and they were not even registered.

 8        Q.   So as I understood your testimony, they were not only more

 9     numerous, but they were also better armed; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.  I said so.  I said earlier that they were armed.  They had

11     three-barrel guns.  They even tried to make an armoured train in Glinica.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I tender this document, this report

13     dated the 20th of July, 1992.

14             MR. HANNIS:  No objection.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D74, Your Honours.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Panic, the next document is P339.  You had a look at that

19     yesterday with my learned friend.  This is also a dispatch made by

20     Dragomir Andan and sent to the Ministry, dated 23rd of July, 1992, so

21     three days after the previous report.  And here again he reports in

22     detail about the existence of the paramilitary units.  And in addition to

23     Zuco, Pivarski, and Niski there's also a Simo Chetnik who has 30 men

24     under him.  You can see that here, and he lists the weapons that they

25     have; is that correct?

Page 3008

 1        A.   Yes.  And also the locations where they are operating.

 2        Q.   We can see that some of them even have four Maljutka launchers.

 3        A.   Yes.  That's what the report says.

 4        Q.   Let's look at the second page, please.  First paragraph.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please see the next

 6     page, the first paragraph.

 7        Q.   Here you can see Dragan Andan on the 23rd of July reports to the

 8     MUP that these days, a special unit of the MUP of the Serbian Republic of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina will enter the territory of Brcko, and by its

10     activities it will make it possible for legal organs of authority to

11     function without hindrance.

12             So it is obvious that the problems that you had in Zvornik also

13     occurred in Brcko with the same paramilitary formations, and now the

14     special brigade goes firstly to Brcko at some point around the 23rd or

15     24th of July, and we know that it arrived to Zvornik on the 29th of July.

16     Is that so?

17        A.   Yes, and that was when some of these groups were arrested.

18     Zuca's group was arrested at that time.

19        Q.   On the basis of your testimony and the document that was shown to

20     you yesterday, dated the 28th of July, which was forwarded from the

21     Public Security Station Zvornik to the Ministry and security centres in

22     Bijeljina, it wasn't to Sarajevo via Bijeljina, that is to say, in which

23     you report on conflict with Gogic's men and which sounds quite alarming

24     because you are asking urgently for assistance, and you said that two of

25     your colleagues went to Bijeljina asking for help of the special unit

Page 3009

 1     which should come to Zvornik.  And indeed the special unit arrived on the

 2     27th -- that is to say, the 29th of July; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So when we analyse the genesis of all these reports, we have the

 5     first report from the 17th of July [as interpreted] made by

 6     Dragomir Andan as a MUP inspector, in which he lists certain problems

 7     with which the public security station in Zvornik was facing that we have

 8     discussed now.  He talks about the presence of the paramilitary units and

 9     the problems with them.

10             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  The transcript says the first report

11     from the 17th of July.  Can I have some clarification?

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  17th of June, I said.  It's the first document --

13     it's the first document that you were -- that I was referring to the

14     witness which you -- which you used in -- in your direct.  I believe it's

15     335, P33 ...

16             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.  That's now exhibit --

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, P338.  I'm sorry.

18             MR. HANNIS:  P338.  The transcript came out as 17th July, and I

19     wanted to correct that.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] So let me return to this.  We have the document

22     of the 17th of June in which these problems are noted, the problems that

23     public security station had with paramilitaries.  Then we have a document

24     dated the 20th of July in which the same information is repeated but more

25     specifically, and the coming of the special MUP Brigade to Zvornik is

Page 3010

 1     requested so that it would resolve this problem with the paramilitaries.

 2     Then we have the document dated the 23rd from which we can see that the

 3     special brigade already enters Brcko, and we know that the brigade

 4     arrived in Zvornik on the 29th of July, and it really did arrest the

 5     members of the paramilitary formations.

 6             In your opinion, as you are an experienced member of the MUP,

 7     when we are talking about such an operation of the MUP directed against a

 8     paramilitary formation which has at least 100 members, would that imply

 9     that such an operation has to be well planned?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I think that this had to be planned very well, and at

11     that point in time things had to be kept secret.  You can see that we did

12     not know that they would be coming, so already on the 28th we could have

13     made things go wrong for them along with Gogic's men.

14        Q.   All right.  So we do agree that this operation had to be carried

15     out in secret, planned in secret, implemented in secret in order to

16     ensure its success, the success of that kind of operation.  That is to

17     say, it had to be very serious; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So you will agree with me that this absolutely does not resemble

20     the operation that was carried out -- an operation that would have been

21     carried out on an ad hoc basis, perhaps if a minister had a problem with

22     these paramilitaries, rather, this was an operation, an action that was

23     prepared for a certain period of time in order to resolve the problem

24     that the citizens of Zvornik and Brcko encountered, as well as the

25     members of the MUP as well, in relation to the paramilitaries, I mean;

Page 3011

 1     right?

 2        A.   I think that that is the way it was in its entirety.

 3        Q.   Please go ahead.

 4        A.   Perhaps for a bit that was it, but it had to do with the entire

 5     territory of the municipality of Zvornik for the most part.

 6        Q.   After their arrest an investigation was carried out in relation

 7     to the activity of these paramilitaries.  If you're tired or --

 8        A.   I'm not.  I'm not, I'm not.  I have a bit of high blood sugar,

 9     and I need water.

10        Q.   At any point if you're unwell -- I can go on.

11        A.   It's all right.  It's all right.

12        Q.   So after the arrest an investigation was carried out about the

13     misdeeds, if I can put it that way, that were carried out by these

14     paramilitaries.  Yesterday 296 from the 65 ter list was shown to you.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have it called up

16     again on our monitors.

17        Q.   This is information provided by the department for combatting

18     crime.  Yes.  Information, dated the 4th of August, 1992, and it says:

19              "Information on MUP activities on exposing the criminal activity

20     of paramilitary formation Zute Ose, Yellow Wasps in the area of the

21     Serbian municipality of Zvornik."  Can you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And then it says that in May/June 1992, the security situation in

24     the area of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik was getting complicated

25     because of the activity of the paramilitary formation Zute Osa.  There's

Page 3012

 1     a mention of Zuco, Repic, and then they were arrested, and what was

 2     seized from them, and what the results were of the interviews that were

 3     conducted.  Also there is a reference to the persons who were detained,

 4     if I can put it that way, and so on.

 5             And then the very last paragraph on page 3.  If we could have

 6     that called up, please.  It reads as follows:

 7              "The information obtained by Serb armed forces, military police,

 8     and MUP national security operatives indicate that Dusan Vuckovic also

 9     known as Repic committed a massacre-genocide over citizens of the Serb

10     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina of Muslim ethnicity.  Verification and

11     materialisation of this information was being taken care of -- or,

12     rather, was being taken over by the Serb armed forces military police in

13     cooperation with the MUP operatives."

14             Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes, I see that.

16        Q.   Do you know that due to the nature of the crimes involved - these

17     are crimes that are violations of international humanitarian law and law

18     of war - in the former Yugoslavia it was the military organs that dealt

19     with this and also the military police due to the very nature of these

20     crimes?  Do you know that?

21        A.   Yes.  As far as military personnel were concerned, they were

22     tried by military courts.

23        Q.   Not only with regard to military personnel, also with regard to

24     these particular forms of crime that were committed in a situation of

25     war.

Page 3013

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             Mr. Panic, do you agree that the release from detention of this

 4     person Repic and some other members of the group caused a great deal of

 5     protest and fear among MUP members in your area since he had threatened

 6     to return to Zvornik or to that area in general?  Wasn't that the case?

 7        A.   Yes.  And how should I put this?  Many were relieved when he was

 8     detained in Sabac and Mitrovica and then committed suicide.  They were

 9     relieved because he would not go back there.

10        Q.   I'm sure.

11             Yesterday you were shown two documents, P344 and P345.  These are

12     documents of the State Security Service, and they were even submitted to

13     the military.  They are from as far back as September and October 1992.

14     They speak of these threats, of sorts, that were issued by Repic, saying

15     that he would go back there, that he would return.  That is to say that

16     these threats of his and his group's were being taken rather seriously.

17     Isn't that right?

18        A.   Yes, since he was an individual that ran unchecked, and he had

19     Zuco's support and all sorts of things could have happened.

20        Q.   I think you said yesterday during your testimony that this

21     special brigade of the MUP, from July 1992, when it first arrived in

22     Zvornik and when they carried out those arrests, that then from time to

23     time they would come to the territory of Zvornik yet again.  I assume in

24     order to prevent -- or, rather, intimidate potential paramilitaries from

25     returning to the territory of Zvornik.  Isn't that right?

Page 3014

 1        A.   Yes.  At the same time, we'd be safer, too, and we'd have more

 2     courage.

 3        Q.   If I remember correctly, yesterday during your testimony you said

 4     that you were being threatened, too, from Loznica after your conflict

 5     with Bogic's men.  Did you take these threats seriously?

 6        A.   At the time, yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You were assistant commander of the reserve police,

 8     if I remember correctly.  We discussed that at the very beginning.

 9             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note:  We could not hear the

10     answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was assistant commander for the

12     reserve force before the conflict broke out.  After the conflict started,

13     I was assistant commander of the station.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   That's what I meant, before the conflict broke out.

16             Tell me, these members of the police reserve -- how should I put

17     this?  They were ordinary people who had done their military service in

18     the then JNA, and by way of a decision of administrative organs, they

19     were transferred to the police reserve.  Isn't that right?

20        A.   Yes.  Upon completing their military service, they would get that

21     kind of assignment.  Let them be sent to the reserve of the army or of

22     the police or the civilian protection.  So these were reserve wartime

23     assignments.

24        Q.   Objectively speaking, these were persons who had not undergone

25     any kind of police or combat training; right?

Page 3015

 1        A.   No.  They worked in companies, they worked elsewhere, but they

 2     were members of the reserve force.

 3        Q.   Tell me, yesterday you talked about the situation in Celopek

 4     where Repic committed horrible crimes against persons who were detained

 5     there.  I think that you then said that the security of that facility was

 6     provided by a group of police reservists; right?

 7        A.   Yes.  There was a reserve police station in Celopek, and they at

 8     the same time secured the facility.

 9        Q.   If I understood you correctly, these people who provided

10     security, these reserve policemen as we established a moment ago, who,

11     objectively speaking, had not had any kind of special experience, they

12     encountered -- how should I put this?  They were up against a criminal.

13     I mean, we can say with good reason that his very personality was a

14     highly disturbed one.  I'm referring to Repic.  They absolutely did not

15     have -- or, rather, what is your opinion?  Did they have any chance of

16     standing up to such a man and his group?

17        A.   I did not think that they had a chance of doing that, even if

18     they tried to do something.  That's my opinion and I talked to people

19     about this too.  If he was alone or, say, with two people, or if

20     something were to be attempted, he would bring more people in.  I mean,

21     they were policemen.  I mean, we active policemen were not used to that

22     kind of thing either, but reserve policemen in particular, they were not

23     used to shooting at human beings.  They were seeking shelter for

24     themselves.  They were trying not to get shot themselves.  So later on,

25     those who remained were transferred to the prison in Zvornik because the

Page 3016

 1     station was closer up there.

 2        Q.   In fact, they were transferred to Novi Izvor in order to protect

 3     them as much as possible; right?

 4        A.   Well, there was more protection than in Celopek itself.

 5        Q.   Tell me, in your view there is no doubt that these reserve

 6     policemen were seriously afraid of Repic and that group.  They were not

 7     in fear only for themselves, but I assume that the members of their

 8     families were there too.  I mean, they lived in the area.  And knowing

 9     the structure of his personality, I mean he did not mind who was of which

10     ethnicity.  There was his readiness to mistreat and kill anyone for any

11     reason; right?

12        A.   Precisely.  All of these reserve policemen were from there, from

13     Celopek or Trsic, and then people were saying, Well, if he has a knife in

14     his hands and if he put it in his mouth, who would walk up to him?  They

15     would just seek shelter trying to hide from him.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go back to these facilities if I can put it

17     that way, Novi Izvor and the misdemeanors court.  If I'm not mistaken,

18     you said yesterday, and you repeated it today as well, both of these

19     localities were turned into prisons by these paramilitaries and the

20     military police.  And at first they provided security there, and it was

21     only later that the police took over the security, if I can put it that

22     way, of these localities, that is to say Novi Izvor and the misdemeanors

23     court; right?

24        A.   Yes.  It was the military police who provided security at the

25     beginning, and then later, pursuant to a commander's order, the

Page 3017

 1     active-duty police took over.

 2        Q.   If I understood correctly the context that we are discussing

 3     here, isn't it true that the commander's order to take over the security

 4     duties was in fact issued because he wished to try and provide the best

 5     possible protection for the detainees?  Would you agree with that?

 6        A.   I think that was precisely that, and pursuant to an agreement

 7     with the then provisional government it was decided for the police to

 8     take over because these detainees had been maltreated before.

 9        Q.   Even more so because according to the rules and regulations that

10     are binding for the police and in absence of any order in that sense from

11     the Ministry of the Interior, that meant that you as the police were not

12     duty-bound to secure a prison or a similar institution.  There are other

13     organs who take care of that.

14        A.   Yes.  In every system, an order to establish a prison should be

15     issued by a court of justice, and based on that, the warden and prison

16     guards are appointed.

17        Q.   Precisely so.  However, in this particular situation that

18     happened in April 1992 in Zvornik, I think that you said in your

19     testimony that initially the period which actually lasted two months,

20     there were totally random arrests made by paramilitary, the police, the

21     Territorial Defence, et cetera.  And once these arrests are made, then

22     they would establish a prison and then maltreat the detainees kept there.

23             Is it the correct summary of what you are saying?

24        A.   Precisely so.  Both the army and the paramilitaries and whichever

25     unit happened to be there used to arrest people, take them to various

Page 3018

 1     facilities, detain them there, because the police at that time never

 2     arrested anyone or brought them into custody.  That happened only when

 3     there was any disturbance of public law and order where they interviewed

 4     such people, and then they would be referred to the army.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank my colleague

 6     who pointed out a problem in the transcript.  71, 13.

 7        Q.   Just a moment, please.  We have to clarify this for the benefit

 8     of the transcript.

 9        A.   No problem.

10        Q.   I asked you -- or, rather, I recapped your testimony in the last

11     two days, and -- and I said that in this particular situation prevailing

12     in April 1992 in Zvornik, I think that in your testimony you said that at

13     the beginning of this period which lasted for two months, arrests were

14     made by paramilitary, the military police, the Territorial Defence,

15     et cetera.  Do you remember that, and do you confirm that this was true?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   We have the problem in the transcript which reads only the

18     police, not the military police, which is a totally erroneous context.

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now show the witness 65 ter

20     document 180.

21        Q.   This document is a direction issued by the Ministry of the

22     Interior, signed by the minister, Mr. Stanisic, and it's dated the 19th

23     of July, 1992.  It was sent to all the security services centre.

24             This circular letter was an outcome of the information that

25     appeared, so to say, at the first staff meeting of the Ministry of the

Page 3019

 1     Interior of Republika Srpska, which was held on the 11th of July, 1992,

 2     in Belgrade, because that was the only place where all heads of the CSBs

 3     could get together.

 4             And in this document -- I don't know if you've had an opportunity

 5     to see it.  Have you seen this document before?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   I'm going to read to you certain paragraphs, A, G, and E.  It was

 8     agreed -- A:

 9              "Problems related to activities of some paramilitary units --

10     problems related to activities of some paramilitary units, especially in

11     cases where crimes have been committed ..."

12             Then on page 2, if we can look at that, please.  Item G says --

13     that's D.

14             "Procedures and jurisdiction in the treatment and custody of

15     prisoners, persons evacuated from the combat-operation zones, collection

16     camps into which the army brings Muslim residence without any documents

17     that might state reasons for such action, and then leave such undefined

18     camps to the organs of the interior."

19             And then D says:

20             "Operation of the military judiciary authorities."

21             And lastly the minister sets up the deadline for providing this

22     kind of information.

23             Here it says that the army was taking into detention -- bringing

24     into detention members of the public and population without any documents

25     and then left such camps to the Ministry of the Interior.  Wasn't that

Page 3020

 1     exactly the situation that you describe as pertaining in Zvornik?

 2        A.   I hadn't seen this, but I think that the chief had received such

 3     an order for the police to take over the prisons.

 4        Q.   No, this is not an order.  This is a request for providing

 5     information, whether there are such cases or not in practice, because

 6     that has been highlighted at the 11th of July meeting, that there were

 7     incidents in which some kind of undefined camps had been established.

 8        A.   A recommendation.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] On page 74, 18, it should say it

10     without any kind of documents stipulating why these people were detained.

11        Q.   So you also knew that there were no documents supporting the

12     detention of such individuals were found by the police once they took

13     over [as interpreted].

14        A.   That's right.  No.  Only later did the prison warders and guards

15     start keeping records of events.

16        Q.   If you would be so kind to look at document 1D55.  This is an

17     order dated the 10th of August, 1992, issued by the minister of the

18     interior.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, before we move on to the next

20     document -- before we move on to the next document, I just, in order to

21     keep the record clear, wish to know if you seek to have the last two

22     documents tendered into evidence.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, Your Honours, because the witness said he

24     didn't recognise the document.  I'm perfectly willing if there's no

25     objection.

Page 3021

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  No, no, I was just -- I was just asking.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  For the record, Your Honour, I don't have any

 3     objection to the admission of those two.  I believe they're authentic,

 4     and I believe they're relevant and probative.  I anticipate that we would

 5     be seeking to introduce them later in any case.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, we intend to introduce them with the witness,

 7     but it is -- it is all the same to us whichever witness is -- is in

 8     question.  So if there is no objection and it pleases the Court, we will

 9     tender this document for an exhibit.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This is 65 ter 296 and 180.  Please have them

11     admitted.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D75 and 1D76, Your Honours.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm trying it resolve an issue.  Please bear with

14     me, because there is some issue with the transcript again.

15             [Interpretation] My colleague tells me that on page 74, line 8, I

16     think that the witness said yes to the question.

17        Q.   I asked you, Mr. Panic, that you also knew that no documents had

18     been presented to you relating to the people who were detained and that

19     such documents were not found by the police when they took over the

20     security of these facilities.  You said yes, and it says here no.  That's

21     why I would like to ask you again what is your answer to this.

22        A.   I said yes.  We couldn't find any documents.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at 1D55 now.  That's an order issued by

24     the minister of the interior of 10th of August, 1992.  It was also

25     distributed to all CSBs.  This order was probably prompted by the

Page 3022

 1     information that had arrived at the ministry based on the previous

 2     document, and here the minister orders the following:  That detention and

 3     holding measures shall be applied exclusively within the existing

 4     regulations, and that he shall hold responsible personally for the lives

 5     of people who are being held and detained, and he requests to prevent any

 6     kind of abuse of that area.  He also requests that the premises where

 7     people be held or detained must fulfil basic hygiene and health

 8     requirements.

 9             And then under 2 he says:

10             "The security of collection centres shall be the direct

11     responsibility of the Serbian Army, and if they do not have enough men

12     for these duties it shall therefore be necessary to engage members of the

13     reserve police for these tasks and place them at the army's disposition."

14             And finally he also says that disciplinary and, if necessary,

15     other measures will be applied.

16             Yesterday you were shown a document in which it was precisely the

17     Territorial Defence who resubordinated a number of reserve policemen.

18     Can you correlate this decision with this order of the minister of the

19     interior?

20        A.   I think that I can't, because the Territorial Defence and the

21     Army of Republika Srpska, who accepted some of our reservists, were part

22     of combat units, because at that time there were no collection centres.

23     They went to Batkovic, and the only prison that remained in Zvornik was

24     Novi Izvor.

25        Q.   But the Novi Izvor prison in Zvornik was in fact, so to say, the

Page 3023

 1     only prison in Zvornik; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  At the time that was the only prison that had about 11 or

 3     10 guards, police reservists.

 4        Q.   That was, so to say, the basic prison that under normal

 5     circumstances every municipality -- or, rather, every court would have.

 6     That would be the facility to -- where offenders be kept or people who

 7     were in custody; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.  Because that was first a prison before the war, then it was

 9     converted into the misdemeanors court, then Novi Izvor and the

10     misdemeanour court were combined and made into one unit because these

11     were adjacent buildings.

12        Q.   Do you know, sir, whether in this facility, I'll call it a

13     prison, that at the time there were Serbs who had committed certain

14     crimes -- I even think there was a woman detained there, and there was a

15     Croat as well, which means that their status had nothing to do with their

16     ethnicity but, rather, with the fact that they had committed certain

17     criminal offences.  Are you aware of that?

18        A.   Yes, I am, because I heard -- I think that there was a woman

19     called Spomenka Stojkic.  She was a Croat and married in Celopek, and I

20     heard that she was in prison and that she had been brought in by the

21     army, that she was guarded by the military police, and later when the

22     prison was taken over by police, she was still there.

23        Q.   Very well.  Now I'm going to show you yet another document from

24     the minister of the interior in relation to the previous document I

25     showed you, 1D55, dated the 10th August.  And now this new document is

Page 3024

 1     dated the 17th of April [as interpreted].  1D005844 is the other

 2     document.

 3             This was also submitted to all heads of centres of security

 4     services.  Yet again it is stated:

 5              "I hereby repeat the order that all security service centres,"

 6     et cetera, et cetera, "when dealing with prisoners of war and the

 7     civilian population refugees that they act only on the basis of

 8     international law of war, international conventions."

 9             Then in paragraph 2 having to do with some kind of unofficial

10     prisons and if persons act in contravention of international conventions,

11     the ministry should be informed of violations straight away.

12             And then number 3, as for persons --

13             MR. HANNIS:  Can I confirm.  In the transcript it indicates the

14     document is dated the 17th of April, but I believe it's 17 August.  I

15     just want to confirm that.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] And the last paragraph, I can read it out to

18     you:

19             "As for persons violating existing regulations and acting in

20     contravention of our legal provisions and international provisions in

21     this area, regardless of whether these are civilians or members of the

22     MUP or members of the military, immediate action should be taken in order

23     to collect information and documentation in order to file criminal

24     reports to the Office of the Prosecutor in charge."

25             Do you remember this kind of order, a similar order being

Page 3025

 1     transmitted to you by your chief?

 2        A.   I had not seen the order, but it is only natural that that is the

 3     way one should act.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation

 6     continues] ... admitted into evidence, Your Honours, if there's no

 7     objection.

 8             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D77.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Just very briefly.  Could the

11     witness please be shown 65 ter 332.  That is a report on the work of the

12     public security station Novi Zvornik from the 1st of April until the 30th

13     of June, 1992.  Now I'm not sure whether it's already been assigned a

14     P number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P346.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I do apologise.  So

17     P346, page 2.  Page 2, please.  I assume that in English it is page 3.

18     Yes.  I do apologise.  In Serbian it's page 2, and in English it's

19     page 3.

20             Can we see -- I'm sorry.  It is page 3, the second page in the

21     document.  I do apologise.  In English, again it has to be moved one page

22     up again.  Sorry.  The next page in English, please.

23        Q.   Sir, would you please look at the last paragraph here on the

24     monitor.  The basic court in Zvornik, can you see that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3026

 1        Q.   This is a report that was submitted by Vasovic Marinko [as

 2     interpreted].  It was shown to you yesterday by my learned friend, and it

 3     says here:  Since the basic court in Zvornik had not established a guard

 4     service for securing the prison, ten employees of the police milicija is

 5     in -- without interruption securing the basic prison in Zvornik.  In

 6     addition to that, there is daily security provided for other facilities,

 7     et cetera.

 8             What he means here is Novi Izvor; right?

 9        A.   Yes.  Novi Izvor is for misdemeanors, but in fact it's one and

10     the same thing.

11        Q.   Seventeen, fifteen, I said Marinko Vasilic, the then chief the

12     public security station in Zvornik.  In the transcript it says Vasovic.

13             Do you know whether there were any incidents that took place when

14     members of the paramilitary tried to enter, and sometimes they did

15     succeed in entering facilities that were secured by the police - I'm

16     referring here to the misdemeanors court in Novi Izvor - and that several

17     times, again, the reserve policemen who for the most part provided

18     security for these facilities were mistreated, weapons were pointed at

19     them, knives were put at their throats so that they would unlock the

20     doors in order to allow those individuals to come in and mistreat

21     prisoners?

22        A.   I know about that.  I did not see it, but I heard, for example,

23     that a military policeman came in.  And on that day or the previous day

24     his brother had got killed and that he entered with a rifle, that he

25     disarmed that guard.  He beat him -- or, rather, he beat these Muslims.

Page 3027

 1     There were other cases of the kind that I heard of, but since I was not

 2     in charge I did not see this personally.

 3        Q.   Do you know that this gentleman, Mr. Sreto [phoen] Vukovic, who

 4     was your colleague, an active-duty policeman, do you know that he was

 5     even compelled to engage some locksmiths to change the locks and put bars

 6     on the doors in order to make it less possible for persons to barge into

 7     prisons during the night and mistreat prisoners?  Do you know about that?

 8     This has to do with the misdemeanors court and Novi Izvor.

 9        A.   Yes.  When he was appointed warden -- later on he was appointed

10     warden of the prison.  Once he told me that he had to make some

11     reinforcements so that the paramilitaries and the military policemen

12     would not barge in and mistreat people.

13        Q.   In view of your numbers, I mean the number of active policemen in

14     the SJB and in view of all the other problems that you had in Zvornik, he

15     could not expect you to give him a group of active policemen to help out

16     with securing these prisons; right?

17        A.   Well, if you look at our numbers then at the station, at the

18     hotel, perhaps there were one or two extra policemen, but everybody was

19     on patrol or perhaps they went with some units to combat positions.  So,

20     no, he could not count on any major help from us, only if we'd happened

21     to be at a particular place.  But if we happened to be at a particular

22     place, then -- well, the paramilitary and military policemen, you know,

23     they wouldn't dare.  You see, they'd see if we were not in town, then

24     they would -- well --

25        Q.   Yes.  I mean -- right.  Basically you were very busy, way too

Page 3028

 1     busy, and there were two few of you to carry out that load of work.  When

 2     you were there and when you could help, and we do have some testimony to

 3     that effect, that when Sredo Vukovic would come, then he would manage

 4     to -- to deal with these paramilitaries, and he threatened these reserve

 5     policemen with some measures to be sent to the front line instead of

 6     carrying out these duties, because his order was being violated, that is

 7     to say, not to allow anyone to enter the prison premises; right?

 8        A.   Well, yes, because after all it is quite different when Sredo's

 9     there.  After all, he's a trained policeman and an active policeman,

10     rather than someone who just came from a factory and was dressed in a

11     uniform and was given a rifle and --

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Panic.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation

14     continues] ... another, I believe, ten minutes for tomorrow just to cover

15     the issues that Mr. Hannis covered this morning, and I believe I will

16     be -- there is no point in starting because it's completely new issue

17     now, and I would finish tomorrow, I believe, in 15 minutes.  Thank you

18     very much.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

20             We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in Courtroom I.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 13th day

23                           of November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.