Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3498

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15                           [Open session]

16             MR. HANNIS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I'm Tom Hannis with

17     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution, and our next witness is ST-113.

18             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is being brought in by the Usher,

19     we understand, Mr. Hannis, the Prosecution is seeking -- is expecting to

20     lead him for an hour as a 92 ter witness?

21             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, I did ask for that much time.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Could you enlighten us as to why?

23             MR. HANNIS:  Well, in his prior testimony in the Krajisnik case

24     obviously the primarily focus was on his relationships with Mr. Karadzic

25     and Mr. Krajisnik.  For this case, because we are focusing on the police

Page 3563

 1     aspects of the case, I think I need to elaborate on some of his testimony

 2     and some of the documents relating to the war commissions as they relate

 3     to the war staff; his meeting in the Zvornik; and dealings with

 4     information he received about the problems with the police and the

 5     paramilitaries, et cetera.  I'm pretty sure I will finish before the end

 6     of our regular time today, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Should you not have called him as a viva voce

 8     then?

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, we have a time-limit and a number

10     of witnesses, and we thought this was the best combination.  I will just

11     tell you my personal experience in the Milutinovic case was we called a

12     number of witnesses as what I called "combo" witnesses, with a nod to

13     McDonald's, I guess, in that they were both 92 ter and viva.  Because

14     often times they have given statements that, to recreate in viva voce in

15     this case might take days, whereas I wanted that, but I also wanted the

16     unique aspect that contained to this particular case or in the MOS case.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, could the witness take the solemn declaration,

20     please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN DJOKANOVIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.  You may be seated.  Would you tell

Page 3564

 1     us your name, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Dragan Djokanovic.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your date of birth?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the

 5     20th of April, 1958.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  And your occupation, your profession, is what?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm an MD, a doctor, a

 8     pediatrician.  That's my specialisation.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity, please?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.  And an

11     Orthodox Christian.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You have given testimony before in other

13     cases before this Tribunal, I believe; is that correct?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE HALL:  So you are familiar with the procedure that we

16     follow which is pretty well standard in terms of courtrooms, that is,

17     that the side calling you, in this case the Prosecution, would first ask

18     you questions, after which the lawyers representing each of the two

19     accused would have a period to ask you questions in cross-examination.

20     Then you would be returned to -- the Prosecution would then have a right

21     to re-examine you, and the Chamber may have questions of you.  Thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:

25        Q.   Mr. Djokanovic, or doctor, you previously testified in the

Page 3565

 1     Krajisnik case before this Tribunal; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   And prior to coming to court today, did you have a chance to

 4     review your testimony from that trial?

 5        A.   I did.

 6        Q.   And having done that, were you satisfied that the record as

 7     recorded accurately reflected your testimony and that if you were asked

 8     the same questions today, you would give the same answers?

 9        A.   Yes, everything was recorded accurately, and I would provide

10     identical answers today.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I would tender his prior

12     transcripts.  I think they've given four separate numbers for the four

13     separate days, as well as the associated documents in the 92 ter package.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document in the 92 ter package

16     shall be admitted as P00397, the specific numbers will be communicated to

17     everyone in due course.  Thank you, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             MR. HANNIS:

20        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Just briefly, I understand that you were an

21     athlete of some standing in the former Yugoslavia; is that correct?

22        A.   Well, yes, I was a gymnast, and I was in the youth administration

23     of Yugoslavia and the senior administration of Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   And you became involved in politics in what year?

25        A.   Toward the end of 1989.

Page 3566

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  I was a member of

 2     the youth team and the senior team of the former Yugoslavia, team of

 3     gymnasts.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Thanks for that correction.

 5        Q.   You formed a political party in 1990; is that correct?

 6        A.   In early 1990, I began preparations to establish a political

 7     party, and I formed the party in -- on the 2nd or 3rd of May in Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   Can you tell the Court where you were living and working in early

 9     1992?

10        A.   In early 1992, I was living in Sarajevo, and I was completing my

11     specialisation in pediatrics at the pediatrics clinic in Sarajevo.

12        Q.   And I'd like to show you a document, the 65 ter number 10151.

13     This will be up on the screen in a moment, Doctor.  And I will tell you,

14     it purports to be a list of employees of the Ministry of the Interior who

15     worked, in April, at the Vraca school.

16             And we see number 9.  That's your name, is it?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   What did you do at the Vraca school in April 1992?

19        A.   This was the time when the Serbian part of the special police of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina entered the school at Vraca.  And since I was the only

21     doctor who lived in the area, I was called up to work in the medical unit

22     in the school and the police school.  And I complied.

23        Q.   And there's a handwritten word after your name on the list that's

24     been translated into English as "left."  Does that mean you had departed

25     and were not there in April, or can you explain that?

Page 3567

 1        A.   I worked there under a month at the Vraca clinic and then at the

 2     invitation of the president of the Presidency of the SFRY, Branko Kostic,

 3     I was supposed to go to Belgrade for a meeting.  And I left the Vraca

 4     school and the people who were preparing the pay list for the month.

 5     They stated there that I had left, and somebody signed for me and took my

 6     salary actually.

 7        Q.   Okay.  You don't recognise the signature next to your name?

 8        A.   Well, it's in handwriting.  Somebody wrote Djokanovic in the

 9     Cyrillic script, but it wasn't me.

10        Q.   Did you -- you are aware that the Vraca school was taken over by

11     the Serb police on or around the 6th of April 1992; did you know about

12     that?

13        A.   Yes, I did.  Well, I lived in the neighbourhood.

14        Q.   Okay.  But you yourself, were you actually at the school on that

15     occasion?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did you go to Vraca school later in April?

18        A.   Two to three days after the Serbian police came into the Vraca

19     school, I was invited or summoned by Spiric and Lubura.  They had worked

20     at the school earlier, and they knew me.  They knew that I lived in the

21     neighbourhood.  They knew I was a doctor.  So they invited me to come and

22     help them with establishing a medical unit there.  And I agreed.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Spiric is the -- was the principal or the head of the

24     school at that time?

25        A.   Spiric was a professor of physical education earlier at the

Page 3568

 1     school -- a teacher of physical education.  And earlier on, he had been a

 2     gymnast.  So that's how I knew him from previously.  I don't know that he

 3     was ever the principal of that school, but I do see here that it says

 4     deputy chief of that centre, which is something that I didn't know of

 5     then.

 6        Q.   And we see number 8 on the list is a person named Mladen Mandic

 7     who is listed at the school principal; did you know him?

 8        A.   Well, I did know Mandic, not too well.  I knew his elder brother

 9     Momo better.  But when I came to this medical unit, I knew that he was

10     the head of the centre, the chief of the centre.

11        Q.   Thank you.  When you came back to Vraca a few days after the

12     take-over, how long did you stay there?

13        A.   I'm not sure I understood your question.  What do you mean when I

14     came back to Vraca?

15        Q.   When you came to Vraca a few days after the take-over, how long

16     did you remain there?  Was it a matter of hours, days, weeks?

17        A.   I actually live at Vraca.  And this school is in the immediate

18     vicinity of the place where I live.  So on a daily basis, after I

19     actually complied with that summons, I went and did my work at the

20     medical unit every single day until I left for Belgrade.  I can't recall

21     exactly the date.

22        Q.   Do you know, was it in April or May?

23        A.   Well, it couldn't have been after the 5th of May.  And I think

24     that I was still working on that day, on the 5th of May, and that I left,

25     I flew out of Lukavica by helicopter because I know that because on that

Page 3569

 1     night my parents were seriously injured.

 2        Q.   During that time that you had been working at Vraca in April, who

 3     did you see there from the Serbian police?

 4        A.   Other than the people mentioned here, the people who were in my

 5     immediate surroundings at the police academy were, I saw, for instance,

 6     Karisik regularly.  I had known him also for a number of years because he

 7     was an ex-athlete as well.  Also another athlete Repija.  I also knew

 8     Mr. Stanisic as a former athlete.  And, of course, I knew that at this

 9     time he was the minister of the interior of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   Did any high-ranking political members of SDS come to Vraca

11     during the time you were there in April and early May?

12        A.   On one occasion, Mr. Karadzic came to the school.  He was

13     accompanied by the newly appointed minister of defence, Mr. Subotic.  On

14     this occasion, we had a chat and we had lunch together.

15        Q.   And do you recall anything that was discussed at that lunch with

16     Mr. Karadzic?

17        A.   Well, Karadzic did not know where I was in those days because we

18     had lost touch some 15 to 30 days earlier.  He didn't know that I was at

19     the school in Vraca, that's what we talked about.  And I told him that I

20     was to go to Belgrade.  And then he told me that once I returned, it

21     would be a good idea for me it to come to Pale.  And then, after lunch,

22     we sat with the school principal in his office, there were a number of

23     people there, and we had an informal talk where we remained there for

24     some 30 minutes to an hour.

25        Q.   Was there any discussion about the current security situation?

Page 3570

 1        A.   The people there were interested in the Serbian side cutting the

 2     city in two.  In other words, to divide the city from Vraca towards

 3     Skenderija by the football pitch at Kosevo.  And I think somebody

 4     mentioned this to Mr. Karadzic, I can't recall who it was, and Karadzic

 5     replied that he could not issue an order to that effect; that is

 6     something that would have to be decided by the council for national

 7     security.

 8        Q.   And do you recall who else was present during that discussion?

 9     Mr. Karadzic, I think you mentioned the principal, Mr. Mladen Mandic.

10     Who else was present, if you recall?

11        A.   Well, I think Karisik was there and Mico Stanisic.

12        Q.   Now, when you left Vraca in early May, where did you go and what

13     did you do for the next five or six weeks up until about mid-June, can

14     you tell us?

15        A.   When I arrived in Belgrade, I was informed that the Presidency of

16     Yugoslavia where I had had an office since late December 1991, because I

17     was the president of the coordinating body of the convention of

18     Yugoslavia, so my administration was in the cabinet of the member of the

19     Presidency of the SFRY from the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

20     Dragica Cortan was there as a secretary.  She worked there.  She was the

21     chief of my administration.  And they advised me that I had had a number

22     of calls from foreign embassies who wanted to talk to me about the

23     possibility of preserving the integrity of Yugoslavia and what activities

24     I could take part in in order to preserve the continuity of Yugoslavia.

25     So, at this time, I visited a number of embassies.  And I had discussions

Page 3571

 1     with a number of people from the administration of the former

 2     Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 3        Q.   Did there come a time when you left Belgrade and returned to

 4     Bosnia?

 5        A.   Yes, in early June of that same year, Professor Koljevic managed

 6     to fine find me in Belgrade.  He -- we had a meeting; we had a

 7     conversation.  He told me that it was the desire of the people at Pale to

 8     have me back there.  And then we left Belgrade; we flew out in a

 9     helicopter to Pale.  But I requested that before we went to Pale, we

10     should meet with Branko Kostic, the then president, Slobodan Milosevic,

11     and the patriarch Pavle.

12        Q.   When you said Professor Koljevic told you that it was the desire

13     of people at Pale to have you come back, did he refer to anybody

14     specifically?  And, if not, who did you understand that to mean?

15        A.   Well, it is a bit difficult, now, to recall every detail.  But

16     Karadzic had already mentioned when he was at the school in Vraca that he

17     would have wanted me to go there, so Professor Koljevic actually said

18     that he was conveying this wish on behalf of Biljana Plavsic and

19     Dr. Karadzic.

20        Q.   When did you get to Pale, approximately?

21        A.   I think that I came to Pale on the 9th of June.

22        Q.   What did you do once you got there?  How did you get engaged?

23        A.   The same afternoon, I spoke to Dr. Karadzic about the situation

24     in Pale, about the problems facing the Presidency members.  I acquainted

25     myself about the most recent decision by the Presidency about the forming

Page 3572

 1     of the War Presidency in the municipalities.  Karadzic explained that

 2     they made that decision, that it was published in the official bulletin;

 3     but they didn't have any return information, and he believed that that

 4     decision had not really been implemented in the field.

 5        Q.   Were you given a job or a title in the summer of 1992?  And if

 6     so, what was it?

 7        A.   When Karadzic explained that they were having problems with

 8     communication with the local leaderships or, rather, the Crisis Staffs, I

 9     studied their decision about the forming of the wartime presidencies,

10     War Presidencies, and I saw what the negative aspects of it were.  And

11     then I made a decision about the forming of military commands in the

12     localities.  And the difference was that the republican commissioner

13     should go into the field to form the war commission and to return -- and

14     that body was supposed to restore to power the local deputies, the

15     civilian authorities, which were elected in the last elections, and

16     possibility elect a new president of the Executive Board in that

17     municipality.

18             Karadzic immediately agreed with this proposal of mine.  And, at

19     one point, we did have a difference of opinion.  I wanted the

20     commissioner to have free reign as far as the forming of the municipal

21     commission was, but Karadzic wanted to do it according to a formula that

22     the commissioner should -- the body should comprise five persons, the

23     deputy, the president, the member of the SDS party, somebody from the

24     prominent businessman in the community, and someone who was just a

25     citizen from that municipality.  I accepted that as a compromised

Page 3573

 1     solution because I could see that there was a possibility to appoint two

 2     persons that I could influence on.  And the commissioner possibly could

 3     have some freedom to apply creativity in choosing their staff.

 4             And then we thought, Well, let's go out to the field and see if

 5     we can actually implement this.  And then, on the same day, we did the

 6     certificate on my establishment as the republican commissioner.  We

 7     looked at the way we would do things and the decision, and then we

 8     decided on the first municipality where would we be able to put this

 9     actually into practice.

10        Q.   And who named you the republican war commissioner?

11        A.   The appointment was signed by Dr. Karadzic.

12        Q.   Now, if I can ask you to explain or distinguish a little bit for

13     us.  We've heard some evidence about Crisis Staffs.  You were aware of

14     what the Crisis Staffs were and generally how they worked in the

15     Republika Srpska in April and May?  You had some knowledge of that?

16        A.   In all municipalities, not just of the Serbian republic, but I

17     think the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina, some sort of Crisis Staffs were

18     formed.  The Crisis Staffs in that area were not something that was new

19     in that period.  The Crisis Staff in that area were inherited from the

20     previous regime.  If there was some sort of natural disaster or any

21     problem, then a given territory would form a Crisis Staff that would be

22     dealing with such problems.

23             So in the area of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24     Crisis Staffs were formed, and they comprised people from the local

25     leadership.  Of course, I don't know who those people were precisely,

Page 3574

 1     their structure in the municipality, but I know that all municipalities

 2     did have a Crisis Staff.

 3        Q.   Prior to the war in 1992, Crisis Staffs -- tell me if I am

 4     correct, Crisis Staffs had generally been for sort of ad hoc situations

 5     like a natural disaster, a flood, a fire, something short term; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.

 7        Q.   But during the war, the Crisis Staffs that were created actually

 8     existed much longer term, for four months, and basically took over the

 9     job of the Municipal Assemblies and running the business in the

10     municipalities; is that right?

11        A.   They were the absolute power in the municipalities.

12        Q.   And can you tell us, what was the difference between

13     Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies, if there was any?

14        A.   There was no difference in essence, and I told Dr. Karadzic this

15     right away.  You're not going to get anything by renaming the people from

16     the Crisis Staff into the War Presidency.  They can change the sign on

17     their offices from the Crisis Staffs, they can become the

18     War Presidencies, but they will still be the same people that you are

19     having these problems with.

20        Q.   And can you give us a general idea of what kinds of problems were

21     being had with these members of the Crisis Staffs?

22        A.   Well, he had complained in previous conversation that didn't have

23     communications with offices in the field, that the decision was not

24     implemented about the Crisis Staff.  And the Crisis Staff had perhaps

25     changed their names to War Presidencies, but they had not established

Page 3575

 1     contact with him.  And they didn't show any desire to become a part of

 2     the system.

 3        Q.   And so what was the idea behind war commissions, how were these

 4     going to address the problem you described?

 5        A.   I wanted to practically drive away the members of the

 6     Crisis Staffs, to put it in a figurative way, for them to discontinue

 7     with their functions completely.  For the republican commissioner to come

 8     to a point, a municipal commissioner, and for those four people with the

 9     republican commissioner, they were to find deputies as soon as possible

10     in the municipality to assemble them, organise them, and to constitute or

11     establish a Municipal Assembly.

12             And to elect a new president of the municipality or to abolish or

13     confirm the mandate to the previous one.  But, in any case, we wanted to

14     have people in the field with a first and last name who would be

15     responsible for the situation in the field.  And, of course, those same

16     people would be then in communication with the Presidency in Pale, the

17     government in Pale; and the whole system, in that way, would begin to

18     operate.

19        Q.   Weren't most of these people who were members of the

20     Crisis Staffs SDS members?

21        A.   There were no other political organisations in the field who

22     could cover such a large number of municipalities, like the SDS could

23     perhaps in a smaller number of municipalities.  There were people from

24     other political parties in those Crisis Staffs.  At this point in time,

25     I'm just thinking of some Herzegovina municipality where people came from

Page 3576

 1     the Serbian Renewal Movement and were perhaps members of the

 2     Crisis Staffs.

 3        Q.   And is the Serbian Renewal Movement associated -- well, with whom

 4     was the Serbian Renewal Movement associated at that time?

 5        A.   Serbian Renewal Movement had a parliament in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 6     a deputy who was Spremo from Nevesinje.  And it was in no -- he was in no

 7     way different from a deputy from the Serbian Democratic Party.  He was

 8     simply a part of that entire parliamentary team in the Serbian parliament

 9     of the Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   Let me have you take a look at 65 ter document number 1705.  This

11     is dated the 13th of June, 1992, and purports to be a notice, I guess,

12     that you as a republican commissioner have formed a war commission for

13     Zvornik municipality.  Can you tell us about this document?  It's signed

14     by you.  How did it come about?

15        A.   This document was drafted after talking with the people in the

16     leadership in Zvornik.  I signed this document.  This is the only

17     municipality where my signature is only -- the only one on that proposal.

18     And the people who were supposed to sign that practically didn't dare

19     sign it because the uncontested boss in Zvornik at the time,

20     Branko Grujic, actually did not figure and did not appear on that list,

21     and that's why they didn't dare to sign it.

22        Q.   And how did it come about that you established this war

23     commission without including Mr. Grujic?  Can you tell us why you did

24     that?

25        A.   The very first day when I came to Zvornik, I could see that

Page 3577

 1     Brano Grujic was not a person willing to cooperate.  He was a very

 2     exclusive, vain man as far as organisation was concerned, and he wanted

 3     to preserve the existing situation in Zvornik.  He wanted to continue to

 4     manage the municipality, the municipal administration.  It wasn't

 5     important to him whether it was called the Crisis Staff, the provisional

 6     government, the commissioner's office, or the Wartime Presidency; he just

 7     wanted to stay in control.

 8             Another thing that I didn't like was that he didn't understand

 9     what was happening in Zvornik.  He didn't want to perhaps under what was

10     going on in Zvornik, which is what I warned him about.  It's about an

11     empty municipality or small town or territory that had been emptied - I

12     don't know how many Muslims had remained at that point - and I had warned

13     Grujic that they shouldn't be messing around with things like that, that

14     one day when the war is over - because these people were people who were

15     known, their first and last names were known - they could be charged with

16     war crimes and genocide.

17             It was a well intentioned warning at that time, and I had the

18     impression that that's how they took it at the time.  However,

19     Brano Grujic happened to have a different position or different view at

20     the time about it.

21        Q.   Let me have you elaborate a little bit on that.  Were you

22     familiar with Zvornik before this June 13th occasion when you went to

23     form the war commission?

24        A.   Yes.  As a young doctor, I used to work in Zvornik.  I worked

25     there for two years.  I knew the municipality very well.  I worked in the

Page 3578

 1     town and in the outlying clinics as well.  I knew a lot of people

 2     personally.  And then in August 1991, wishing to protect the town where I

 3     had worked as a doctor to protect it from the war, I wanted to stop --

 4     actually, I wanted to have a consensus in the municipality between the

 5     local Serbs and Muslims and Bosniaks, and I organised a round table where

 6     I invited Radovan Karadzic and Adil Zulfikarpasic as guests.  So other

 7     than my work as a doctor in 1991, I was also politically engaged in

 8     Zvornik.

 9        Q.   And on this visit to Zvornik around the 13th of June, 1992, what

10     did you see and what did you learn about the situation, and what had been

11     going on up until that date, since the beginning of the war?

12        A.   Upon entering Zvornik - and you enter Zvornik by a road that is

13     located between the Drina River and the town itself, and then there is a

14     kind of overpass and that is actually an old iron bridge erected during

15     the time of kink Alexander Karadjordjevic, and I saw people crossing that

16     bridge as I was going in, the bridge that is linking Zvornik and

17     Mali Zvornik.  And I have this image, a lasting image in my mind, of

18     people, old people, specially an old woman, elderly woman in Muslim

19     "dimije" pants.  And it was very clear that this was actually a group of

20     Muslims that was leaving Zvornik and going to Mali Zvornik that I saw.

21             In speaking with people from Zvornik that afternoon, I asked

22     them, Why are there old people leaving the town?

23        Q.   And what were you told?

24        A.   They said then that people were leaving Zvornik because they were

25     afraid of war and there were even buses provided for those who wanted to

Page 3579

 1     leave Zvornik.  And then I said, Why are old people going?  Old people

 2     are not afraid of death and they are not afraid of war.  And then I was

 3     told that there were paramilitary groups which were harassing the

 4     population and that were practically mistreating those people from the

 5     municipal leadership.

 6             And, individually, some of those people told me, for example,

 7     Jovo Ivanovic said that he had been slapped by Arkan.  Brano Grujic said

 8     that members of the Yellow Wasps had locked him up in the cellar of the

 9     municipal building.

10             So that afternoon, I was thinking that these were people who were

11     not bad, but they didn't know how to resolve this problem in Zvornik.

12             And I left Zvornik that afternoon to go to the next municipality,

13     Bratunac, however I wanted to rest a little bit in Mali Zvornik.  And I

14     noticed a man in a restaurant, a Serb actually, on the road from the

15     municipal building.  I met a local radio journalist who writes for the

16     local paper in Sabac, and she asked me why I was in Zvornik, and I

17     explained this to her.  And then, an hour after that, I crossed into

18     Mali Zvornik, and I went to a restaurant.  And then I saw that journalist

19     and a man whom I had registered in a group in Zvornik when I entered.

20     When I came to Zvornik, I entered the municipal building, I entered the

21     office of the president of the Executive Board, and then in that

22     conference room, small conference room - there was some 15 people who

23     were sitting there at a meeting - I entered the meeting, and I told them

24     why I was there.  They quickly finished up the meeting.  I knew most of

25     those people.  I knew their faces, but I didn't know one of those men.

Page 3580

 1             And then I saw that man again in Mali Zvornik with this

 2     journalist, and I heard some sentences.  I could see that they were

 3     analysing my story, what this journalist, I think her name was Zorica was

 4     writing down, so this made me suspicious.  And that afternoon I decided

 5     not to go to Bratunac.  I stayed in Zvornik.  I spent the night.

 6             The next day I asked to see this deputy Jovo Mijatovic and Jovo

 7     Ivanovic, both of them from the SDS, and asked them, Who is this man?

 8     They told me that that was Marko Pavlovic, that he was the secretary of

 9     the Secretariat for national Defence on the eve of the war and that he

10     was practically doing the same job in the Crisis Staff.  That he was very

11     close to Brano Grujic.  That he actually is not from that area at all,

12     but from somewhere in Vojvodina, from Kikinda, or Zrenjanin and that they

13     believe that this wasn't his real name either.

14             So this actually made me even more decisive to resolve this

15     Zvornik in an adequate way.  And then on that day I said, Can you please

16     draft a proposal for me by tomorrow of the -- for the municipal

17     commissioner's office, and you can -- the two of you can be in there.  I

18     will be the third person.  Radislav Peric, the director of Radio Zvornik

19     will be the fourth person.  And just find some fourth [as interpreted]

20     person from the municipality for me.

21             Jovo Ivanovic proposed Tomislav Jasic [phoen].  This man was the

22     secretary of the housing office.  He was a very competent person.  They

23     brought him to me during the day to talk to him, and he made a very

24     positive impression on me.  And I said, All right.  Prepare that for

25     tomorrow.

Page 3581

 1             And then the next day the list was finished.  However, nobody

 2     there dared to sign that, to participate, and I said, All right.  Well I

 3     will just finish this up.

 4             And that is how this proposal for the municipal commissioner's

 5     office for the Zvornik municipality came about.

 6             After that, I went to Bratunac.  And then I went to Skelani.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You went to Bratunac, Skelani, did you also go to

 8     Sekovici and Glasenica [sic], to those four locations for the purposes of

 9     forming war commissions in those municipalities?

10        A.   I went to Vlasenica, Sekovici, Zvornik, and Bratunac from Pale.

11     I didn't know, then, that there was a the Serbian municipality of Skelani

12     at that time.  The first municipality that I passed on the way from Pale

13     was Vlasenica.  I didn't find anyone in the municipal building there.

14     But in the police building, I met Mr. Djuric, Mane Djuric, I think that

15     he was the chief of police in Vlasenica at the time, and I explained to

16     him why I had arrived at Vlasenica.  And I told him to prepare the

17     municipal commissioner's office for me, on my way back.

18        Q.   Sorry to cut you off, Doctor.  I'm running short on time, so I'm

19     going to have to speed up a little bit.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would indicate, as part of the 92

21     ter package, the documents 65 ter number 1706 reflects the decision for

22     forming a war commission in Vlasenica; 1707 for Bratunac; and 10152 for

23     Skelani.

24        Q.   Doctor, those decisions for those municipalities contain not only

25     their signature, but the signature of one of the local representatives.

Page 3582

 1     I think, for example, Bratunac, I think it's Mr. Deronjic.  And I think

 2     you've explained to us the reason that yours is the only signature in

 3     Zvornik is because of the concerns the others had about Mr. Grujic being

 4     left off; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.  I didn't know people in other municipalities, so I didn't

 6     have any proposals of my own.  I didn't have any indications that some

 7     things were changed.  I simply accepted the president of the municipal

 8     Assembly, the deputy, somebody from the business community, and a

 9     citizen.  That formula was something that I worked on on that basis, and

10     whatever they had prepared, I had taken back as proposals to Pale.

11        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you next 65 ter number 2632.  This is a

12     document dated the 17th of June, 1992.  You've seen this document before?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   And you recognise the signature at the bottom of the page?

15        A.   This is Dr. Karadzic's signature.

16        Q.   Okay.  And this decision is based on a review and a report from

17     you, Dr. Karadzic confirms the appointment of the members of the war

18     commission for Zvornik.  And if we look at the five names there, there's

19     a difference between this document and 65 ter 1705 that we looked at

20     before in that number 3 here is Branislav Grujic.  And the name of

21     Mr. Ivanovic who was originally proposed by you is not there.  Can you

22     explain how and why that happened?  Did you have any discussion with

23     Dr. Karadzic about that?

24        A.   Upon returning from Bratunac, I passed through Zvornik again and

25     I met Radislav Peric, the person who was the head of the radio station

Page 3583

 1     and he was the first one to say that Brano Grujic, when he saw that he

 2     was not on the list, simply went nuts.  And then when I came to Pale,

 3     yes, I told Peric then that I would be in Pale in a couple of hours and

 4     that somebody can call me, either him or Mijatovic or Jovo Ivanovic and

 5     then we can see what this is about.  And then one or the other or perhaps

 6     both of them called and they told me what was happening with Grujic, that

 7     they can not resolve that in any way, and I then conveyed this to

 8     Dr. Karadzic and then he put Grujic on that list.

 9        Q.   In spite of your reservations about Mr. Grujic?

10        A.   I told Dr. Karadzic and the other members of the Presidency very

11     clearly what I had encountered in Zvornik; what I saw, who I talked with,

12     which people I saw and what kind of people they were.

13        Q.   And I think that's detailed in your prior testimony in the

14     Krajisnik case, and the Judges will have that to read.

15             Because of the shortness of time, let me skip ahead and show you

16     document 65 ter number 3085.  While that's coming up, I will tell you

17     this is about a meeting on the 1st of July, 1992, of the Zvornik Serb

18     municipality war commission.

19             You recognise the signatures on this one?

20        A.   Yes, these are conclusions from the meetings of the war

21     commission in Zvornik and the conclusions from that meeting.

22        Q.   And whose signatures are those?

23        A.   That's my signature on the right, and the signature of

24     Jovo Mijatovic who was a deputy, and a person who was shortly before the

25     war the president of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik.

Page 3584

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I forgot to tender 2632, the 17 June

 3     document signed by Dr. Karadzic.  I forgot that that was not part of the

 4     92 ter package.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  And I would also now like to tender 3085 which we've

 7     just been talking about.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, likewise admitted and marked.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 02632 shall be given

11     Exhibit P00398.  While 65 ter number 03085 shall be given Exhibit P00399.

12     Thank you, Your Honours.

13             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14        Q.   At this meeting in this document, I see item number 2 says:

15             "Due to the specific situation, the position of Zvornik Serb

16     municipality and the lack of staff, we are unable to resolve the

17     following matter:  The SJB chief.  The war commissions requesting help

18     from the Ministry of Interior for the permanent solution of this staffing

19     problem."

20             What was the nature of the problem about the SJB chief in

21     Zvornik?

22        A.   I obtained information about the man who was in that post,

23     Vasilic was his last name, and I had a very negative impression of him.

24     He was a man who was, in fact, the follower of Brano Grujic.  He just

25     stumbled into the police force by some chance, and he was totally

Page 3585

 1     disinterested in resolving the problems in Zvornik.

 2             In view of fact that they really did not have a professional

 3     police officer in Zvornik, the only solution to this problem could be

 4     sought from Pale, so that then we could send the competent individual to

 5     be the chief of police in Zvornik.  And according to my vision, this man

 6     was supposed to get a snap-shot of Zvornik so that we have a clear

 7     picture of what was going on in Zvornik and what was going on in the

 8     municipality of Zvornik.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us what other high-ranking persons, if any, attended

10     this meeting in Zvornik, persons at your rank or higher?

11        A.   I'm referring to the meeting of the 1st of July, or do you mean

12     the meeting of the day before?

13        Q.   Well, first of all, the 1st of July?

14        A.   On the 1st of July, we had a meeting of the republican commission

15     with the members of the municipal commission.  I chaired this meeting,

16     and it was attended by these other four individuals that we have

17     mentioned earlier.

18        Q.   And the day before, what meeting was that?

19        A.   The day before, there was a meeting in Zvornik of all the

20     commissioners from the region.  In other words, four commissioners from

21     Skelani, four from Bratunac, four from Vlasenica, four from Sekovici; and

22     this meeting was attending by Dr. Karadzic, myself and Mr. Mandic.  So

23     this was the republican delegation.

24             And, of course, this meeting was also attended by a man who

25     should not have been there, this man called Pavlovic, Marko Pavlovic.

Page 3586

 1        Q.   And how did he come to be in the meeting?

 2        A.   Well, as the meeting was held in Zvornik, he was probably taken

 3     there by Brano Grujic and this man, this Marko Pavlovic, if I can use the

 4     word, tried to mine or undermine the meeting.  And Karadzic had to go

 5     back to Pale and Mandic because of a shortage of time, and we were

 6     supposed to use that time for Dr. Karadzic and me and Mr. Mandic being

 7     acquainted with the situation in the field, and a lot of this time was

 8     actually spent on this Pavlovic individual.  So that when I saw what

 9     was -- how we were headed, I actually began to yell.  And I asked him

10     Well, what are you talking about, man?  Do you know what this meeting is

11     supposed to be about?

12             So in any case, this meeting was practically without any serious

13     constructive results.  The only purpose of the meeting was really that

14     the leaders of Republika Srpska came to meet with the members of the

15     commissions.

16             When I saw what happened on that day, I actually called the

17     meeting on the next day.

18        Q.   You said Mr. Mandic was at this meeting along with Dr. Karadzic.

19     Which Mandic are you talking about?

20        A.   Mladic.  Mladic.  General Mladic.

21        Q.   Thank you.  After this meeting, when you returned to Pale, did

22     you have any discussions with anybody in the Ministry of the Interior

23     about the problem with the SJB chief in Zvornik?

24        A.   On that same day, when we signed these conclusions, I sent that

25     paper by fax to the Presidency to Dr. Karadzic, and when I returned to

Page 3587

 1     Pale a day or two later, I went with a member of the Presidency,

 2     Mr. Koljevic, to Jahorina to visit the minister of the interior,

 3     Mr. Stanisic.

 4        Q.   Did you go alone or with someone?

 5        A.   Professor Koljevic and I went together.  And Dr. Karadzic knew of

 6     the meeting.  We informed him the day before.

 7        Q.   Did you meet with him that day, Mr. Stanisic?

 8        A.   Yes, of course.  Dr. Koljevic and I went to Kosuta, that's a

 9     hotel on Mount Jahorina, where part of the police of Republika Srpska was

10     quartered, and Mr. Stanisic had his office there.  We found him in his

11     office, and we talked with him.

12        Q.   What did you talk about?

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, can we have the precise date of that

14     meeting?

15             MR. HANNIS:

16        Q.   Doctor, can you help us?  Do you know approximately what the

17     precise dated was?  How long after that 1 July meeting in Zvornik that

18     we've seen in Exhibit 399 was it?  Was it a matter of days, a week?  Can

19     you help us?

20        A.   The meeting could have been the 3rd, the 4th, or the 5th of July.

21     It couldn't have been on the 2nd, but it could have been one of these

22     three other days.

23        Q.   And at this meeting, what was said?  What did you say to

24     Mico Stanisic and what did he respond, if you remember?

25        A.   I informed Mr. Stanisic on the problems in Zvornik, and I also

Page 3588

 1     told him what the conclusion was of the municipal commission, at least as

 2     far as the aspect that was of interest to him, the appointment of the

 3     chief of police in Zvornik.

 4             Koljevic pointed out that Zvornik had especially a problem, this

 5     special problem and -- the war crimes problem that they would have, and

 6     he asked Stanisic to hear me out.  Mico Stanisic listened very carefully

 7     to what I had to say.  He heard me mentioning the paramilitary units.

 8     And he said that Djokanovic, he said, he confirmed, he said, Yes,

 9     Djokanovic, we have big problems with paramilitary forces, and I've

10     already sent a dispatch to the federal secretary of the interior in

11     Belgrade because these men actually came from there and crossed over into

12     Republika Srpska.

13             As for the other matter, the appointment of the chief of police,

14     he said that there wouldn't be a problem with that, because the shortage

15     of staff was also felt in Pale, there wasn't a sufficient number of men,

16     but that they would try, in any case, to resolve this matter.  And my

17     impression from that meeting was that he was very interested in resolving

18     this.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what was done, if anything, in Zvornik

20     after that meeting regarding replacing the chief, if you know?

21        A.   At that time, I was still committed to having this meeting,

22     convening this meeting in Zvornik so that these people could return there

23     in mid-August, and I wanted the president of the municipality --

24     Municipal Assembly to be elected.  I learned that, in the meantime, the

25     chief of the police was appointed, in other words, the Ministry of the

Page 3589

 1     Interior of Republika Srpska had followed through on our earlier request.

 2             I didn't have occasion in those days to meet with Mr. Stanisic

 3     and discuss this, but later, in 1994, when we were both in the

 4     government, we discussed this because this war crimes issue was something

 5     that was really dogging the Republika Srpska through the end of the war.

 6     And then I met with Mico Stanisic in a restaurant, I think the name was

 7     Tron, and he said that he had continuously implemented measures in order

 8     to resolve this problem of Zvornik and appoint the chief and also the

 9     special police commissioner.

10             However, I wasn't happy with all this because there was no

11     accompanying policy following in the steps of this action.  There were no

12     preparations for police action, so that it appeared or practically turned

13     out that the police intervened in Zvornik when a member of the

14     Yellow Wasps actually stopped, at a check-point, a member of the

15     Assembly, Mr. Ostojic, who was the second man in the SDS before the war,

16     he stopped him at the check-point - and this is what I also said in my

17     previous testimony - he actually stopped this man and made him to eat

18     grass.

19             I think a few days later a meeting was held of the

20     Republika Srpska Municipal Assembly.

21        Q.   Let me stop you there.  That Ostojic, is that Velibor Ostojic,

22     who was the minister of information?

23        A.   Yes, that is Velibor Ostojic, the minister of information in the

24     first government of Republika Srpska and also the pre-war president of

25     the executive board of the Serbian Democratic Party.

Page 3590

 1        Q.   Did you ever have any conversation with him about that event with

 2     the Yellow Wasp?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, it was an interesting story.  Everyone knew of it at

 4     Pale.

 5        Q.   I am sorry, I'm almost out of time.  Let me ask you a couple of

 6     more questions.  In November of 1992 and on into 1993, did you hold a

 7     ministerial post in the government?

 8        A.   In early 1993, I was appointed as minister of veterans affairs,

 9     and later on, Mr. Djeric attempted, on two occasions, unsuccessfully, to

10     reshuffle the government.  And I was supposed to be one of the ministers

11     who would actually be a member of that reshuffled government.

12        Q.   And did you attend the assembly session on the 23rd and

13     24th of November, 1992?

14        A.   There was an Assembly session in Zvornik.  I was -- I attended

15     the session, and I even spoke or addressed the session.

16        Q.   And this is a meeting where the resignation of Mr. Djeric was

17     discussed, or am I thinking of an earlier one?

18        A.   At this session, the session adopted the resignation of

19     Branko Djeric, that was one of the items on the agenda.  I don't know how

20     much time we have, but I will say this:  We attempted, throughout that

21     summer, to make preparations for Djeric to actually put together a

22     cabinet so that he can be responsible for its work, and once that was

23     practically completed, he was actually -- he actually resigned and his

24     resignation was accepted at this Assembly session.  And this is where,

25     actually, all the dirty laundry came out in Republika Srpska.

Page 3591

 1        Q.   I need to stop there, we are out of time for the day.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, all I wanted to do was have him

 3     confirm this Assembly session that he attended and talked about and

 4     another Assembly session and move those two documents in.  If I can do

 5     that first thing Monday, I have no other questions for him.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.

 7             Mr. Djokanovic, we are about to take the adjournment for the

 8     weekend.  You have --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  We are about to take the adjournment for the

11     weekend.  Having been sworn as a witness, you cannot communicate with the

12     lawyers from either side on this matter.  And in such conversations that

13     you may have with persons outside of the court, you cannot discuss your

14     testimony before the Tribunal.  Do you understand what I've just

15     explained?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fully, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So we resume in this courtroom at 9.00

18     on Monday morning, and I wish everyone a safe weekend.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of

21                           November, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.