Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5004

 1                           Monday, 18 January, 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T.

 7     The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone, and this being the first session since we formally adjourned

10     before the break, I wish everyone a happy new year.

11             I heard the tail end of a news item this morning which I may have

12     gotten out of context but something to the effect that productivity is

13     higher in countries with colder climates, so to the extent that there's

14     any validity to that observation, the experience that you would have had

15     in these parts over the past three weeks has meant that you are all well

16     invigorated and ready for a productive next few months.

17             So the -- I believe where we were at the adjournment is that the

18     witness Donia was on the stand being cross-examined.  And unless there

19     are any other matters which would -- which need engage our attention, we

20     would resume at that point.

21             MS. KORNER:  Yes, well good morning, Your Honours, and happy new

22     year to you from the Prosecution.  Joanna Korner, Belinda Pidwell,

23     assisted by Case Manager, Crispian Smith.  I just have one gentle inquiry

24     for the new year, whether we are going to get any decisions in the very,

25     very, very immediate future?

Page 5005

 1             JUDGE HALL:  You said very, very immediate.

 2             MS. KORNER:  I mean, like, tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  The decisions are in progress, and you will receive

 4     them shortly.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Can I just then mention for the purposes of the

 6     record, that one of the decisions relates to the witness who is supposed

 7     to be coming tomorrow.  Or may have an effect, can I put it that way.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we haven't lost sight of that.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Happy new year to you

10     too.  Slobodan Zecevic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan and

11     Tatjana Savic appearing for the Stanisic Defence this morning.  However,

12     Mr. Cvijetic who is conducting the cross-examination of witness Donia has

13     one preliminary matter he would like to raise with Your Honours.  Thank

14     you very much.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours --

16             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Cvijetic, could we have the appearances

17     for the Zupljanin, please, and then we will hear you.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For

19     Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.  At the same time I

20     would like to express a deepest condolences for the loss of UN officials

21     in the Haiti earthquake tragedy, as well as the number of people of

22     Haiti, but the same time we were informed that the Serbian police

23     officers members of UN staff at Haiti are well and they are doing best in

24     their recovery.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So noted.  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

Page 5006

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

 2     waited for the interpretation to end.  I also wish you a happy new year.

 3             As my colleague Mr. Zecevic has said, I cross-examined Mr. Donia,

 4     and we broke off when we discussed a topic with which I would like to

 5     resume today.  Mr. Pantelic and I redistributed the topics we will deal

 6     with, and we made a time estimate in view of finishing with Mr. Donia

 7     today.  One of our conclusions which we are certain about is that we will

 8     finish our cross-examination of Mr. Donia today.  Only we are not sure

 9     how much time will be used by either of us.  But we would like to ask you

10     to allow Mr. Pantelic and me to work with Mr. Donia during three

11     sessions.

12             So far we haven't been able to prepare a video-clip we would like

13     to show, and we will continue preparing it to be shown during the first

14     session, and we would like to show it during the second session during

15     which I would like to finish with Mr. Donia, and Mr. Pantelic will take

16     over, so, so much for me.  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HALL:  If I understand, Mr. Cvijetic, correctly, this video

19     on which they are still working, in which -- in respect to which I gather

20     there are certain technical problems; however that is -- while that is

21     being worked through, the bottom line is that the witness Donia must be

22     concluded today including re-examination by the Prosecution.

23             So we would begin immediately with the cross-examination, and see

24     -- to maximise the time that we have.  Maximise use of the time that we

25     have.  And the -- such work as has to be done on this video that you wish

Page 5007

 1     to use would continue.

 2             Could the usher have the witness return to the stand, please.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, Mr. Donia, I remind you that you are

 5     still on your oath.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Thank you, yes.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have the English

 8     versions of both publications of Mr. Donia.  I can see that Mr. Donia

 9     doesn't have any copies on him, so I would like to ask the usher to pass

10     this to him.

11                           WITNESS:  ROBERT DONIA [Resumed]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Donia, good morning.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   And a happy new year.  Can we start?

16             Mr. Donia, I'm going to remind you briefly that last time we

17     started dealing with a topic we couldn't finish.  I tried to introduce a

18     Defence document which was a letter written by the parents of Muslim

19     children from Neum in which they asked for instructions from the

20     headquarters of the SDA party in Sarajevo as to what they should do

21     because they were required to send their children to school where they

22     would be taught from school books from Croatia.

23             This letter is dated 16 September 1991.  You said that this

24     letter might not be relevant for this trial because, according to you,

25     the Croatian community of Herceg Bosnia was established later that is in

Page 5008

 1     November 1992, that's what you said to the transcript.  And in your work

 2     - and we are now on page 32 of the B/C/S version, and it's page 34 of the

 3     English version - you state that the exact date is the 18th of November,

 4     1992.

 5             I would like to go into that a bit deeper because the

 6     Trial Chamber was reluctant to accept my document until we clarify the

 7     date issue and the things related to the existence of the HZ HB.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's why I ask Exhibit 1D00-3678

 9     to be displayed.  I apologise, but we have a binder with exhibits for

10     Mr. Donia so he doesn't have to read off the screen.  Could I ask the

11     usher to pass it on to the witness, please.  To speed up things.

12        Q.   Dr. Donia, the exhibit that can be seen on the screen is under

13     tab 8 in this binder.  This is an accompanying letter drafted by

14     Mr. Mate Boban in which he addresses the president of the Republic of

15     Croatia personally.  The letter was sent to Zagreb.  And Mr. Boban

16     informs him of the establishment of the Croatian community of

17     Herceg Bosnia.  Number 8 it was.  Did you find it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   On the following page, as an enclosure to this document --

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the following

21     page on the screen.

22        Q.   Is the decision about the establishment of the Croatian community

23     of Herceg Bosnia.  We can see it on the screen.  You can also find it on

24     the following page.  Have you found it, Doctor?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5009

 1        Q.   Please take a look at this decision.  You know it.  Well, my

 2     question is very simple, when you said that the Croatian community of

 3     Herceg Bosnia was established on the 18th of November, you were probably

 4     referring to this decision; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   All right.  And you recognise it, we needn't read it and comment

 7     it.  I will simply ask to tender this into evidence as this is a document

 8     recognised by you and which you were referring to.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I ask that this

10     document be tendered as a Defence exhibit.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D141, Your Honours.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could we now please

14     see Exhibit 1D00-3672.

15        Q.   It's under tab 9, Dr. Donia, you have probably found it already.

16        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this, yes.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Only for the benefit of the Bench

18     we will say what it is; it's a statutory decision that accompanies the

19     decision on the establishment of the HZ HB.

20        Q.   What I would like to ask you is whether this statutory decision

21     point toward a high degree of statehood attributes of the HZ HB due to

22     the content of this statutory decision?

23        A.   I would say it attributes some degree of statehood to that, about

24     the same as, say, the decision on the formation of the community of

25     municipalities of Bosnia and Krajina.  Less, far less than full

Page 5010

 1     statehood, but some attributes.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  The point of my question was exactly the

 3     existence of some attributes of statehood, I didn't mean that there was

 4     full statehood.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

 6     this into evidence.  Also since the witness obviously is familiar with

 7     this document.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  You may have noticed some hesitation when you asked

 9     to tender the last document, and I wonder -- I would now raise the

10     question that I thought of, whether these don't fall into that package of

11     documents to which we had referred about in November or thereabouts which

12     are being statutory or quasi-statutory, didn't have to be formally

13     exhibited but would form part of a list to be sorted out at some point

14     between the sides - what do you call it, the law library, yes, called the

15     law library - or whether this isn't a part of that -- wouldn't be a part

16     of that package.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  No.  I believe

18     that the Prosecutor will also agree.  That package of ours includes

19     regulations and laws at the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina which were

20     published in the Official Gazette of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  These are

21     regulations that apply only to a smaller area, and they will be used only

22     when mention is made of the Croatian committee of Herzegovina Bosna,

23     that's why I seek to tender it now without waiting to for the entire

24     package.

25             MS. KORNER:  The only query I have, Your Honour, is why this is

Page 5011

 1     relevant, that's all.  That's the only query, not -- it's certainly not

 2     part of the package of laws.  But I don't understand on what basis it's

 3     said to be relevant to the community of Herceg Bosnia.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Well, that did occur to me, Ms. Korner, but the

 5     question, the last question that was put to the witness, I see the

 6     context for it, the last exchange question and answer to the witness, his

 7     observations, his comments on the effect of this.  So to that extent it

 8     would be admissible, would be relevant and therefore admissible.  So it

 9     is admitted and marked.  Thank you.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D142, Your Honours.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Donia, we will now return to the point the Defence wishes to

13     make in connection with the letter which I don't want to put back on the

14     screen right now.  Instead I want to show Exhibit 1D00-3693.

15             It's under tab 11 in your binder, Doctor.  Yes, that's it.

16        A.   Yes, I see it.

17        Q.   As you can see, I can merely assist you, you may or may not know

18     Smiljko Sagolj has signed as editor of the news programme of the Sarajevo

19     TV.  The content of this letter isn't very interesting to me, but what I

20     am more interested in is the way Mr. Sagolj addresses Mr. Boban.  It

21     says, To Mr. Mate Boban, president of the HZ HB.  And what is most

22     interesting in all this is the date, in November 1990.

23             Mr. Donia, after the multi-party elections in the field, the

24     Croatian community Herceg Bosnia was in fact established, wasn't it?

25        A.   Well, as I've said, it was established formally on November 18,

Page 5012

 1     1991.

 2        Q.   Yes, but I've just shown a document from which we can see that it

 3     is, in fact, functioning, and that it has had a president from 1990.  Do

 4     you accept that this community was in fact in existence before it was

 5     officially established?

 6        A.   No.  I -- the English copy that I'm looking at has a question

 7     mark associated with 1990, I think suggesting that it may have been 1991.

 8     That would be the correct date of this document.

 9        Q.   Would you just take a look at the B/C/S version, the printed

10     version.  Do you have the B/C/S version?  It's a fax with the date.

11        A.   I see it on the screen, yes.

12        Q.   And it says 1990, does it not?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Very well.  But despite that, you quite obviously don't agree

15     with the point I'm making that the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna

16     existed since 1990?

17        A.   That's correct, I don't agree with you, yes.

18        Q.   Very well.  Now, let me go back to your report, the one you

19     prepared for the Karadzic trial, and let me just remind you, I think you

20     say there that the Croatian Defence Council as an armed formation of the

21     Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna was established, unless I'm very much

22     mistaken, in April 1992.  Do you remember your paper on that?  I think

23     you have it in front of you?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25             MS. KORNER:  Can we have the page number, please.

Page 5013

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, just a moment, please.

 2     May I just take a moment to locate it.

 3        Q.   Mr. Donia, you remember saying that, do you not?  Is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   That it was in April?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And I think I've found the

 7     footnote, just to tell Ms. Korner.  I apologise, I just have to take a

 8     moment.  The Croatian Defence Council was established on the 8th of

 9     April, 1992, by the president of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna,

10     and that is in footnote 118 in that additional paper, and it's to be

11     found on page 41 of the B/C/S, but I'm sure you'll be able to find it if

12     you look at the footnote 118.

13        Q.   Have you found that, Doctor -- well, you know it anyway because

14     you wrote it; right?

15        A.   Yes, I've found it, and I know it.

16             MS. KORNER:  Just please pause for a moment.  Can you tell me

17     what you are describing as the Karadzic reports?  The only two reports

18     which have been exhibited in this case are the origins of the

19     Republika Srpska and the Bosnian Krajina.  Now, what is the Karadzic

20     report?  Yes --

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Ms. Korner seems to

22     have forgotten that part of that paper has been admitted into evidence in

23     our case, and that's the portion that I'm referring to, the one deemed

24     relevant by the Trial Chamber.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm -- Mr. Cvijetic is absolutely

Page 5014

 1     right.  I call it the Sarajevo report, and that's why I got slightly

 2     confused as to what the Karadzic report was.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  We can continue then.

 4        Q.   Mr. Donia, linked to that particular date, may we have document

 5     1D00-3853 next, please.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt Mr. Cvijetic,

 7     but Ms. Pidwell reminds me, you only admitted chapters 4 to 6.  What

 8     Mr. Cvijetic has just referred to is outside that.  Now, I don't mind, I

 9     wanted the whole report in anyhow, but it's going to make it a bit

10     difficult.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Four, five, and six.

12                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, the reference -- the citation which

14     Mr. Cvijetic is made is in fact within what we have ruled as admissible.

15             MS. KORNER:  It shows one should always double-check information.

16     Your Honour is right.

17             I'm sorry, Mr. Cvijetic.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

19        Q.   Mr. Donia, you have the exhibit in the binder under number 10, so

20     could you take a look at Exhibit number 10, please, Mr. Donia.

21             There you will be able to see a letter from the Croatian

22     community of Herceg-Bosna on a letterhead of the Croatian Defence Council

23     on their paper.  The text isn't too relevant.  What is relevant is the

24     date.  It's the 1st of June, 1990.  Now, Mr. Donia, whichever way you

25     look at it, both the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna and this armed

Page 5015

 1     section of its army were established in 1990, and that is confirmed by

 2     this document; isn't that right?

 3        A.   I am sorry, I don't see a date on the English.

 4        Q.   If you look at the B/C/S version on the screen, you'll see a

 5     date, I believe, there.  Can you see it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   It says the 1st of June, 1990.  So I asked you the question, and

 8     it was as follows:  From these two documents can we see that we have an

 9     entity on the ground as early as 1990, a Croatian entity, that is, with

10     it's armed formation as well?

11        A.   No, I think you are looking at the dates that are coming from the

12     fax heading, and both of them have the characteristic of a date that --

13     to which there is no relationship to the document.  The document in both

14     of these cases would not make sense to have taken place well before the

15     elections of November 18, 1990.  I believe it's most likely that this is

16     simply a fax machine header that someone forgot to set the correct date

17     to.

18        Q.   Very well.  I'll just say briefly that it seems quite improbable

19     that on the documents that the HZ HB and the Croatian Defence Council

20     wasn't working properly and that this was somebody doing it

21     retroactively, but I'll leave that to the Trial Chamber to assess the

22     authenticity of the document.  And I will now move on to the next

23     document.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Cvijetic, for my own edification, do I --

25     I'm trying to phrase this carefully because since you can't give

Page 5016

 1     evidence, do I understand the position to be that in the original B/C/S

 2     version, the date nowhere appears?  And yet your question was based only

 3     on the date in the fax header?  So the date, in fact, is not there, in

 4     the B/C/S version; is that the position?  Is it in the body, or isn't it?

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, just looking at

 6     the upper date when the fax was sent, I'm making the conclusion that it

 7     is 1990.  That's the only piece of evidence that I'm able to conclude

 8     this on.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11        Q.   Mr. Donia, let's now move into 1992.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And for that let us look at

13     document 1D00-3511.

14        Q.   It's number 13 in your binder.

15        A.   Yes, I see it.

16        Q.   Have you found it?  Fine.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The precedent document, are you tendering it?

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, both the

19     previous documents, I omitted to state that.  There are two that I'd like

20     it to tender, the letter by Smiljko Sagolj, the edited 1D3693 and

21     1D00-3853.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As 1D143, and 1D144 [Microphone not activated].

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Shall I repeat the numbers?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the documents will become

Page 5017

 1     Exhibits 1D143 and 1D144.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Donia, this is the Official Gazette of the Croatian community

 4     of Herceg-Bosna, as you can see there in the heading.  Document number 13

 5     is what you should be looking at.  Have you found it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And here you have the regulations of the HZ HB that were

 8     published, and among others on the left-hand side you have the decree on

 9     the establishment of a division of the Supreme Court of the HZ HB.  Can

10     you see that decree?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   And in Article 5 it says how the members are elected and relieved

13     of duty, and that it is exclusively at the proposal of the Presidency or

14     recommendation of the Presidency of the HZ HB.  And then there's another

15     decree that refers to the Prosecutor's Office.  That's right, isn't it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Very well.  Now, going on to the next page, because I have one

18     question I need to ask you on the basis of all these four decrees, so

19     let's look at the other two decrees, I think it's on the following page.

20     We have already seen two, and now I'd like to look at two more.

21             Next page, please.  It is the application of the law on public

22     law and order of Herceg-Bosna, and road safety, a decree on road safety.

23     So those are two decrees on the implementation of the law of public law

24     and order and road safety.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5018

 1        Q.   Now, I've asked you to look at those documents because I wanted

 2     to talk about a decree which says that the provisions and regulations of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina will be applied on the territory of Herceg-Bosna as

 4     well, that they should be applicable there too, only if they are not in

 5     contravention with these decreases and articles and some other

 6     regulations passed on the basis of these principle articles.  So does

 7     that remind you of the attributes of statehood for HZ HB because it has

 8     an Official Gazette, it is publishing its own decrees and articles and

 9     selects the BH regulations that could be applicable and applied to the

10     HZ HB?  Is that the state attributes that you had in mind when you said

11     that, yes, indeed, it did have certain attributes of statehood?

12        A.   No.  The attributes of statehood to which I referred in response

13     to your earlier question were those in the decree of November 18, 1991,

14     in particular the last three sections or sentences of that decree.

15             These, to me, would go further in adding attributes of statehood

16     to what was essentially an expanded concept of Herceg-Bosna.

17        Q.   Mr. Donia, that's precisely my point.  I think that if you look

18     at the last decree there, that fines are paid in Croatian currency, the

19     Croatian dinar, that's what it says there, is it not?  Can you find that

20     portion?  It's in Article 2 of the decree on road safety.  Can you see

21     that, the portion about fines?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So a currency is being produced that wasn't legal tender in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, but was in Croatia; do you agree with me there?

25        A.   I'm not sure it wasn't legal tender in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I

Page 5019

 1     don't know for sure that it was not.

 2        Q.   But I assume you do know that it was a separate currency intended

 3     for HZ HB?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you for that answer, Mr. Donia.  We have to move on.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'd like to tender

 7     this document into evidence.  It is 1D00-3511.  In view of the answers

 8     given by Mr. Donia, I think that they confirm the Prosecution [as

 9     interpreted] case on this point.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Defence case on this

12     point.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, admitted at Exhibit 1D145.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Donia, we have to move on.  With the Dayton Peace Accords,

16     and its general knowledge that the HZ HB by those accords was not

17     recognized as a separate entity; that's right, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   Similarly, the military formations were abolished and a joint

20     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was formed; right?

21        A.   The military formations were not abolished, but there was a joint

22     army of Bosnia-Herzegovina formed.

23        Q.   Yes, that's what I meant to say.  Perhaps I didn't express myself

24     properly, or it wasn't interpreted properly.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] But let's look at the next

Page 5020

 1     document which is 1D00-4526.

 2        Q.   It's number 14 in your binder.  Here we have it on our screens.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And may we zoom up so that we can

 4     see the title of the document.  That's right.  To show the heading.

 5        Q.   Mr. Donia, unless I'm mistaken, we are dealing with December 1996

 6     here and the Croatian republic of Herceg-Bosna still has its

 7     Official Gazette, and it's still called Herceg-Bosna, right, and here we

 8     have a decree, and I just selected one by way of an example.  It's a

 9     decree having the force of law on amending the law governing the army of

10     the Croatian republic of Herceg-Bosna, and it stipulates the ranks of the

11     officers of the Croatian Defence Council.  Can you find that?  It's on

12     the first page.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   How, then, can you explain this fact, Mr. Donia, the fact that in

15     December 1996, that is to say one year after Dayton, the Croatian

16     republic of Herceg-Bosna, still exists, it has its Official Gazette, it

17     publishes its regulations and decrees and even deals with its own armed

18     forces?

19        A.   The Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was maintained illegally in

20     violation of the Dayton Accords for some time after the signing of

21     Dayton.  It's less clear whether the HVO was in fact a legitimate part of

22     the armed forces.  There is, I believe, one provision in the Dayton

23     constitution, or at least the military annex, that recognizes the HVO.

24     But the HZ-- or the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was clearly not a

25     part of the Dayton Agreement, and it was eventually terminated, I

Page 5021

 1     believe, in 1998.  But until that time it existed, it operated in

 2     contravention of the Dayton Agreement provisions.

 3        Q.   Well, I have to smile, I don't know what is coming next.  I think

 4     you are agreeing with me, so I'll continue along those lines not to upset

 5     the barrel.  So that is the absence of it, the Croatian community of

 6     Herceg-Bosna did in fact continue to exist.  And my next question, and

 7     that will round off this subject of Herceg-Bosna, we'll finish with that

 8     topic, but you were a system professor at the University of Sarajevo for

 9     time, were you not, and you went to Bosnia-Herzegovina frequently; right?

10        A.   May I just in your transition to this new line, you made the

11     statement that the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna continued to exist.

12     It did not.  In 1993 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was converted

13     to the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, that is what existed from that

14     time until 1998.

15             I was and am an associate professor at the University of Sarajevo

16     without pay, without work, but who in fact was given that title several

17     years ago.

18        Q.   I'm now going to give you my own impressions and try to see if

19     you agree and whether you share my impressions.  I travelled around --

20     well, let's call it the one-time Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna or

21     the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, so when I go there, I have the same feeling

22     -- I have the feeling that it still exists looking at the radio and

23     television stations, the various headings that you see there, so have you

24     travelled around the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna at all?

25        A.   Yes, I have.

Page 5022

 1        Q.   Do you have that same feeling, that it still exists, in fact?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Obviously we don't share the same impressions.  I have a

 4     different impression.  Of course we needn't agree on that point.  Very

 5     well.  Now, Mr. Donia, let's move on to another area, and -- well,

 6     Your Honour, I apologise but I forgot to tender the Official Gazette of

 7     the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna into evidence.  We have had quite

 8     robust commentary from Mr. Donia.  It's 1D00-4526.

 9             MS. KORNER:  This one I do object to, Your Honours.  Absolutely

10     nothing to do with this case at all.  Miles out of the period, totally

11     irrelevant to any issue that Your Honours may have to decide upon as to

12     whether they tried continue in violation of the Dayton Agreements.

13             JUDGE HALL:  And to add to that there's no English translation in

14     e-court.

15             So Mr. Cvijetic, the document will not be admitted.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Okay.  I will be abide by your

17     decision, but the Registry has told me that we do have an English

18     translation.  If that's the reason for it not being admitted.  But let me

19     say by way of explanation, the document is --

20             JUDGE HALL:  [Overlapping speakers]

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that wasn't the reason,

22     right.

23             Yes, I accept your decision, and we can move on.

24        Q.   Mr. Donia, we are now on page 31 of your paper entitled "The

25     Origins of Republika Srpska."  Actually, in English it's pages 33 and 34,

Page 5023

 1     to help you find your way.  And I'll prepare by questions while you are

 2     doing that.

 3             On that page, you deal with the question of the Assembly of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was held, as we know, on the 15th of October,

 5     1991; is that right?

 6        A.   On the 14th to 15th October, 1991, yes.

 7        Q.   Yes.  Well, at that same Assembly, a decision was made about the

 8     sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that right?

 9        A.   Not quite.  I think the Assembly passed a resolution about

10     sovereignty, but it really didn't make a decision about it.  It simply

11     drew attention to the sovereignty that had already been expressed in one

12     of the amendments to the constitution passed in July of 1990.

13        Q.   Very well, thank you for that explanation.  But at any rate, we

14     are not challenging the fact that the resolution was adopted without the

15     presence of the Serbian representatives in the Assembly of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina so it was only the Croats and Muslim deputies who

17     voted for it, or the deputies representing the parties of the SDA and the

18     HDZ; am I right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   At that Assembly, the Serbian deputies tried to prevent that kind

21     of decision from going through, saying that it was unconstitutional, that

22     it was violating the constitution because it touched upon the vital

23     interests of one of the nations.  Mr. Karadzic took the floor several

24     times and tried to draw the Assembly's attention to that.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So may we now have Exhibit P13.

Page 5024

 1     Exhibit P13, please.

 2        Q.   In your binder it's under tab 15, I forgot to point that out,

 3     sorry.  Have you found it?

 4        A.   Yes, I have.

 5        Q.   It was only one in a series of appearances.  I mentioned the page

 6     references in both versions, and it was a rather dramatic appearance and

 7     you also commented Mr. Izetbegovic's reaction who understood that to be a

 8     threat.  And later only one sentence was singled out from that speech and

 9     which was characterised as a threat.

10             But, Mr. Donia, I'll be brief about this because this document is

11     already in evidence, and we have discussed it earlier.  Wouldn't it be

12     fair to read Mr. Karadzic's entire speech, and then draw the conclusion

13     that essentially he is actually asking those present not to adopt such a

14     decision which is unconstitutional.  You also quoted one of -- one

15     sentence on page 3 of the B/C/S version, a few lines down, it says, as

16     his final argument, he says, "My gentlemen, until you -- this issue of

17     the structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina is taken off the agenda, I will

18     continuously take the floor."  He is threatening that he will use

19     constitutional means to prevent some things that he -- to contact

20     The Hague.  And finally, in a dramatic matter, I agree, he warns of the

21     possible consequences as have been seen in Croatia.

22             Mr. Donia, do you agree with me when I say that this document

23     must be interpreted in the context of his entire speech and not only with

24     regard to a few singled out sentences?

25        A.   Certainly, I do.  And I think it also should be taken in the

Page 5025

 1     context of other utterances that he made in the immediate several days

 2     preceding this one on the floor of the Assembly to understand what his --

 3     what his statement really meant in the context that he was uttering it.

 4        Q.   Then you will agree with me when I say that in that context we

 5     should -- in that context we should also interpret his subsequent

 6     behaviour because after that Assembly war did not break out, mediation

 7     ensued by the international community, and Mr. Karadzic agreed to a plan

 8     in which there was no Greater Serbia or truncated Yugoslavia, but rather

 9     a sovereign Bosnia.  Isn't that the context in which we should view that

10     speech of his?

11        A.   No, I wouldn't think that is the context in which to view it in

12     the first instance in any case.  The immediate context was that that very

13     day, the 15th of October, marked, that evening, the beginning of a

14     protracted planning process in which Dr. Karadzic and others undertook to

15     lay plans for a separate Serb state within Bosnia.

16        Q.   Mr. Donia, the Republika Srpska was not planned to be a separate

17     Serbian state outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina, nor was it envisaged such by

18     the constitution of Republika Srpska.  Therefore I must show you

19     Exhibit P181.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would like to see it on our

21     screens, please.  And in your binder, it's under page 17.  That's the

22     constitution, and if we could see Article 143 of the constitution.  It's

23     at the very end of the text.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, something I don't understand

25     really.  You seem to talk about a separate Serbian state outside of

Page 5026

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The witness -- the witness was talking about a

 2     separate Serb state within Bosnia.  So perhaps --

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If I didn't understand the

 4     interpretation, it may have been my mistake, but I think it was

 5     interpreted that way.  Well, we'll clarify based on this constitutional

 6     article.  I heard it the other way around, but we can check it with the

 7     witness, Your Honour.  Or let's hear the witness.

 8        Q.   When you were interpreting Karadzic's -- Karadzic's aspirations

 9     with regard to the Republika Srpska, what exactly did you have in mind?

10        A.   I referred to his aspirations to create a separate Serb state

11     within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well then, you are right,

13     Your Honour.  I apologise.

14        Q.   Let us now read Article 143.  Have you reached the final

15     provisions of the constitution yet, sir?  Let us try to corroborate my

16     case.

17        A.   Article 143 is what you -- I've' reached it.  I read it.  I don't

18     know what it means.

19        Q.   As you see, the constitution leaves open the possibility of being

20     adapted to the constitutional acts of Bosnia-Herzegovina because

21     negotiations about that were still underway, so the constitutional order

22     of Bosnia-Herzegovina was still uncertain and open, which is reflected

23     here.  Isn't that correct?

24        A.   Yes, at this time there was no constitutive act that I know of on

25     the order of relations in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  If there were, and, indeed

Page 5027

 1     there were, discussions going on both among the parties and with the

 2     international community about what those relations would be, and had they

 3     been successful, they might have resulted in such a constitutive act.

 4     But it didn't exist at this time.

 5        Q.   Very well, we will get to those negotiations yet.  But before the

 6     break, let me ask the following question about this Assembly.  Actually

 7     we have only two questions about it.  Can you agree with me, sir, that

 8     with this Assembly resolution, a serious constitutional and political

 9     crisis began in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10        A.   Well, I would agree that it was a watershed event, in that it

11     sent the various parties heading in different directions.  Arguably the

12     constitutional crisis could be dated earlier than this, but it certainly

13     intensified that crisis to the point of affecting the way in which the

14     primary political parties behaved thereafter.

15        Q.   Very well, and my second question about this decision is the

16     following:  I'm asking you to state your opinion, you don't need to be an

17     expert for constitutional law, I believe, and so, therefore, I believe I

18     may ask this question.  Was this decision in the spirit of the

19     constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20        A.   I really can't answer that question.  It's clear that the various

21     parties had very different understandings of what the constitution

22     provided, and that in some cases, those understandings were not really

23     based on an examination of the constitution as much as wishful thinking.

24     But whether it was in accord with the constitution or even the spirit of

25     the constitution, I really can't -- I'm not an expert in that area and

Page 5028

 1     really can't answer it.

 2        Q.   Yes, and I noticed that for constitutional and other legal

 3     issues, you consulted certain works of literature, you indicated as much

 4     in the footnotes.  And several times you consulted Mr. Robert Hayden's

 5     book, a draft for a divided house, or some such.  Am I correct when I say

 6     that?

 7        A.   It's one of the things I examined, yes.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, this may be a good

 9     opportunity for us to take a look at Defence Exhibit 1D01-1156.

10        Q.   It's under tab 16, Doctor.  It's an excerpt from a

11     Mr. Robert Hayden's book "Blueprints For a House Divided."

12     Could you please turn to page 94.  Not page 94 of the document, but that

13     page of the book.  It's in the second sheet in your binder, Doctor, I

14     believe.

15             So I would now like to ask you to skim through it to see what

16     Mr. Hayden says about this decision.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   It would seem that his position is that such a decision was not

19     in line with the spirit of the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do

20     you agree with Mr. Hayden's comment?

21        A.   No, I don't.  Because he fails here to note the -- I believe he

22     fails here, if I'm reading the context correctly, that he fails to note

23     that the -- there was an effort it to create a council of national

24     equality, not as a separate Chamber of legislature, but as a kind of

25     committee drawing members from both other chambers -- both chambers of

Page 5029

 1     the legislature.  And the legislature, or the Assembly failed to adopt --

 2     failed to appoint the members to that, failed to adopt a working document

 3     which would form it.  And the absence of that body, to me, was a crucial

 4     step in understanding what happened on the 15th of October, why the --

 5     Dr. Karadzic and the SDS was so adamantly opposed to the vote or to the

 6     propositions that were submitted, and also why the HDZ and SDA felt

 7     comfortable in moving forward and voting for it.

 8        Q.   I believe that we agree with Mr. Hayden that there was no

 9     constitutional mechanism for the protection of vital national interest

10     because in the Assembly there was no house of peoples, and of course that

11     council wasn't established or did it ever meet.  Essentially, that is in

12     line with what you said, isn't it?

13        A.   Yes, in the period before the elections, all three nationalist

14     parties agreed that there should be, A, either third chamber; or a body

15     such as the council of nationalities to ensure the protection of rights

16     of each nation.

17        Q.   Yes, but nothing of the kind was in existence, was it?

18        A.   The provision for it was in existence in the constitution, but it

19     was never actualised by an act of the Assembly.

20        Q.   Thank you.  That's what I meant.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my next topic is

22     unrelated, so should we have a break now, or should I start dealing with

23     this new topic?

24             JUDGE HALL:  No, we are eight minutes away from the break, so

25     please continue.

Page 5030

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2        Q.   Mr. Donia, I will now be dealing with a topic.  Before we move on

 3     to Cutileiro's plan with which I'll finish, but until that time I'd like

 4     to dwell on a topic you are dealing with on pages 30 through 33 in the

 5     English version of your work, your basic paper.  And it's pages 28

 6     through 31 in the B/C/S.  I want to go into the transformation of the

 7     Yugoslav People's Army.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Which one?  Which report, please?

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The first report, the creation of

10     Republika Srpska, the first basic report we are dealing with anyway.  The

11     page reference for the English version is 30 through 33.

12        Q.   Mr. Donia, you know what I'm referring to, the transformation of

13     the Yugoslav People's Army; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You are arguing that the Yugoslav People's Army started

16     transforming into a Serbian military ever since Croatia; is that correct?

17        A.   Do you have a date?

18        Q.   No, not a date.  I mean, from the war in Croatia.  I believe that

19     I found that position expressed subsequently in your report.

20        A.   At the time that the war in Croatia really intensified to a full

21     war sometime in September 1991, I would see the first indications of the

22     transformation of the JNA in Bosnia as well, that it was a slow process

23     that didn't gain momentum until 1992.

24        Q.   Very well.  I'm going to show you some documents from an earlier

25     period so that we may see whether such an attitude toward the JNA existed

Page 5031

 1     in 1991.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So let us see now a document

 3     number 1D00-3848.  It's under tab 25 in your binder, Doctor.

 4        Q.   Have you found it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   As you can see, this document is unambiguously dated, it's 1991,

 7     and the Citluk municipality is in the area of the Croatian community of

 8     Herceg-Bosna.  With this decision they introduced a moratorium on sending

 9     recruits to the JNA, but this is mid-1991.  You will certainly agree with

10     me, sir, that the transformation of the JNA began, among other things, in

11     such a way also.

12        A.   Yes, I think that the transformation of the JNA had several

13     different components, and this was one of them.

14        Q.   Very well.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

16     this document because the witness appears to be in agreement with the

17     allegations in this document and with the -- with the case of the Defence

18     -- with the point of the Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D146, Your Honours.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well, could we now see

22     document 1D00-054 [as interpreted].  It's under tab 27, Doctor.

23        Q.   Have you found the document, sir?

24        A.   Yes, I have.

25        Q.   Let us not comment, I'll just ask you whether you agree with me

Page 5032

 1     that here the HDZ BiH asks their members in 1991 to refrain from sending

 2     their children to the JNA; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Very well.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC:  Your Honours.  I would like to tender this

 6     document as a Defence exhibit also.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D147, Your Honours.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And the following document is one

10     by the SDA, let's see, its attitude towards the JNA.  It's document

11     1D00-3840.  Can we see it, please.  It's under tab 26, Doctor.

12        Q.   Here the SDA, if you can see, is suggesting to prevent the taking

13     over of documentation from the JNA to hide registers of possible recruits

14     who could be drafted to the JNA; is that correct?

15        A.   No, I don't see the word "hide" here unless we have a translation

16     issue.  It merely asks that the police be the guardians of those military

17     records.  That they be -- also be involved in guarding those records.

18        Q.   But the purpose of this act is actually to prevent the JNA from

19     laying their hands on these documents and gaining control over these

20     documents; isn't that correct?

21        A.   It states that this recommendation or order is in response to

22     those actions.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Since there seems to be a bit of controversy about

24     this, could we take the break now and return to this in 20 minutes.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Okay.

Page 5033

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is returning to the stand, we

 5     would alert counsel that we would need 10 minutes before the end of the

 6     -- today's adjournment to deal with a number of matters in which the

 7     Chamber will make some rulings.  And I emphasise that the witness Donia,

 8     must be completed today.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can I continue, Your Honours?

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Donia, we don't want to deal with this document very long so

14     I will be specific.  Please direct your attention to paragraph 2 where

15     basically the republic is overruling the federal law on military service,

16     and there is also another fact, namely that a political party is dealing

17     with this matter rather than the political authorities in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina because -- do you see the contradiction because these

19     are matters with which the authorities of the republic or the Presidency

20     can deal with, et cetera?  Can we agree that this has a bearing on the

21     functioning of the JNA?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we, please, see a document

25     from this group, 1D00 -- Your Honours, I have again forgotten, now the

Page 5034

 1     witness has agreed with my point, and therefore I seek to tender this

 2     document as a Defence exhibit.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D148, Your Honours.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  The final document is

 6     1D00-3783.  It's under tab 24, Doctor.

 7        Q.   I'm referring to the decision on the right side.  It's the

 8     decision to withdraw representatives of Bosnia-Herzegovina from all

 9     federal organisations.  Twenty-four on the right-hand side, the upper

10     decision.  Well, maybe not in the English language version.  Have you

11     seen the decision on the withdrawal of representatives?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   It is short, and we won't comment much on it.  It is dated the

14     25th of January, 1992.  The vice-president of the Assembly of the

15     Socialist Republic of BiH, that is the Assembly function without the

16     Serb's representatives, he assigned the decision to withdraw all

17     representatives of the SR BiH from all federal bodies and organs.  So my

18     question is about the context of the relationship with the JNA.  You will

19     agree, won't you, that this obviously is the falling apart of the

20     Federation?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Well, what is it, according to you you, then?

23        A.   Well, at this point the --

24        Q.   Be brief, if you can.

25        A.   If you want ask me a question, I'll answer it as best I can.  The

Page 5035

 1     withdrawal of representatives was -- put Bosnia in the same position as

 2     the other two western republics had earlier -- had taken earlier.  It was

 3     not necessarily a permanent withdrawal insofar as it was prior to the

 4     referendum, certainly subject to being reversed, if the referendum result

 5     had gone in another direction, and so I wouldn't say this is the end of

 6     the Federation, no.

 7        Q.   But you will agree that this is one in a series of actions and

 8     decisions that go in the direction of the deconstruction of the

 9     Federation?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Donia, in your report on the pages on which you

12     deal with the JNA, you mentioned some incidents for which you blame JNA

13     members.  I believe there were shooting incidents in town caused by

14     drunken soldiers, et cetera.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please call up -- I

16     apologise, I forgot to seek to tender the previous document into

17     evidence.  I believe it isn't too late yet.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D149, Your Honours.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's already an exhibit, 1D101 and

21     102.  I think those were the numbers, or 1D102.  1D102 is the document

22     number.  It's an Exhibit, and Mr. Donia, it is under P19 in your set of

23     documents.  That's the document.

24        Q.   Have you found it, Mr. Donia?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5036

 1        Q.   We have an additional act from Jelko Doko, the minister of

 2     national Defence, which is sending on the decision on the withdrawal of

 3     JNA units from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'd like us to

 4     have a look at the decision itself, now, please, because we see that the

 5     decision was attached to this document.  It's on the next page.  That's

 6     right, here it is.

 7             Mr. Donia, I assume that you know of this decision, you know that

 8     the Presidency took the decision to withdraw the JNA from BH and

 9     stipulated the conditions under which this should be done; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And it's a document which is common knowledge.  I have a few

12     comments to make with respect to the documents that followed on from this

13     decision, but this is already an exhibit and you know about the decision,

14     so I think I can just move on to the next document.  It's already an

15     exhibit.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D00-2795 is the next document I'd

17     like us to look at.

18        Q.   Dr. Donia, it is document number 20 in your binder.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Fine.  Let's just see if it's the right one.  It was signed by

21     Alija Delimustafic.  Yes, right, that seems to be it.  Mr. Delimustafic

22     as minister of the interior is referring to the Presidency decision on

23     the withdrawal of JNA units, and that's what it says in the introduction,

24     before we come to the order itself.  And under point 4, among other

25     things, he says that planning should be accelerated and combat throughout

Page 5037

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina and that all this should be co-ordinated with the

 2     Territorial Defence, et cetera, et cetera.

 3             Now, Mr. Donia, my question to you linked to this order is this,

 4     the order from Mr. Delimustafic:  Does this look to you like a

 5     declaration of war?

 6        A.   No, it's not a declaration of war.

 7        Q.   Very well.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May we have the next document, and

 9     then I'll tender both of them.  It is an order from the commander of the

10     Territorial Defence, the contents are the same.  1D00-2798 is the

11     document I'd like us to look at next.

12        Q.   Dr. Donia, it is document number 21 in your set.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let's just wait for it to come up on our screens.  The same

15     heading again, it refers to the Presidency decision, and this time the

16     order was signed by Colonel Hasan Efendic on behalf of the Territorial

17     Defence staff, and in paragraph 4, the same thing is stated, that combat

18     activities throughout the territory should be initiated, and it is

19     symptomatic that this follows on from the decision taken by the

20     Presidency about the withdrawal of the JNA, so once again I'm asking you,

21     is this tantamount to a declaration of war against the JNA?  And I assume

22     that your answer will be the same as it was a moment ago, not to waste

23     too much time on that.

24        A.   Well, you've asked the question a little bit differently this

25     time.  You said this time, is it tantamount to a declaration of war?  And

Page 5038

 1     I would say it has some elements of a declaration of war, but as you

 2     know, that formal declaration did not -- did not really come about.  So

 3     it's not a declaration of war, but has some elements of it.  And in that

 4     context that the JNA was basically assaulting these forces all across the

 5     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at this time.

 6        Q.   Very well, I can agree with you in part because you are coming

 7     close to my point, the point I want to make, but of course we don't have

 8     to agree 100 per cent.  Anyway, I'd like to tender these two documents.

 9     They are historically important documents, in my view.  So I'd like to

10     tender them into evidence, and they are highly relevant for a

11     clarification of the topic at hand.  Do you wish me to repeat the

12     numbers?  1D02795 and 2798.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D150 and 1D151, Your Honours.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, now, let's have

16     Exhibit 1D00-3818 on our screens, please.

17        Q.   Dr. Donia, it's document number 22 in your set.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And may we move on to the second

19     page straightaway, and I'll tell you what it's about.  So page 2 of the

20     document, please.  This is the transcript from a Presidency meetings,

21     Presidency session of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Thank you.

22             MS. KORNER:  To be accurate, Your Honour, it's a newspaper

23     publication of something said to be a transcript.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the

25     transcript of the meeting that was published in the press because the

Page 5039

 1     press had a series of articles publishing transcripts from Assembly

 2     sessions, and I set aside this particular one which is relevant for my

 3     questions, but, yes, Ms. Korner is right.

 4             Page 2, please.

 5        Q.   And can you focus on the comment made by Mr. Delimustafic there.

 6     It starts with the following words:

 7             "Both we and his ministry made mistakes..."  And then he goes on

 8     to comment and say that instead of him, the order to attack the JNA was

 9     signed by Mr. Avdo Hebib his assistant.  And he goes on to stay when he

10     ordered the war to start, people would open fire and occupy the barracks.

11     And Mr. Izetbegovic asks, Who did that?  And Delimustafic says, Avdo

12     Hebib.  And Delimustafic says, He declared war on the army.

13             And after that a Croatian Presidency member asked that this

14     should not be recorded and become part of record, but it was recorded and

15     it did become part of the record.  Now, my question to you is this:  Do

16     you still stand by your statement that this wasn't de facto a declaration

17     of war against the JNA, I'm not talking about informal terms, but

18     de facto?  And Delimustafic referred to it in that same way.

19        A.   Yes, I hold my earlier answer.  There's no date here assigned to

20     this alleged declaration, and the characterisation is given by

21     Delimustafic who obviously was unhappy with what Hebib did.  So I don't

22     know that it's a very authoritative description.

23        Q.   Very well.  Well, it means what Delimustafic says, I don't want

24     to paraphrase what he says, he says himself that this is a declaration of

25     war on the Yugoslav army.  But anyway, if you have no further comments,

Page 5040

 1     then since this is a very important and historical document, I'd like to

 2     tender it into evidence.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And Mr. Donia -- yes, I apologise.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D152, Your Honours.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And Mr. Donia, the last document linked to this transformation of

 8     the Yugoslav People's Army is 1D19, it's already an exhibit so I don't

 9     need to tender it, but I'd just like us to comment on it.  1D19 is the

10     number.  It's document number 23, Mr. Donia, in your set.

11             As you can see there, and the Trial Chamber has already seen this

12     document, it's an exhibit, perhaps you haven't, but it is a chronology of

13     important events, and it lists the incidents and attacks against members

14     of the Yugoslav People's Army conclusive with the 30th of May.  And it

15     lists all the key incidents where a lot of members of the Yugoslav

16     People's Army fell casualty, the attack in Sarajevo, Tuzla, the victims

17     were in their hundreds, and so on.

18             Mr. Donia, could this be the result of that declaration of war

19     from that decision we saw earlier on, at least the events that took place

20     after the decision?

21        A.   Well, I haven't had a chance to review all of these.  Clearly

22     many of them are prior to the decision, and I couldn't -- I also don't

23     know what the source of this document is.  I just comment that many of

24     them are prior to the decision and many are after.

25             MS. KORNER:  Can we know what the source was, please?  Is?

Page 5041

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] When we admitted this document, I

 2     think that a military person told us that it was -- that the source was

 3     military intelligence.  No, I apologise, it was just marked for

 4     identification.  Not admitted into evidence.  So you are quite right, and

 5     we'll wait for a more opportune moment, I won't be tendering it now, but

 6     we'll wait for an expert to come in, so I withdraw that proposal to

 7     tender the document, you're quite right.

 8             MS. KORNER:  No, but I'm sorry, Dr. Donia has asked what the

 9     source is, and I'm repeating that request on behalf of the Prosecution.

10     What is the source of the document, whether or not it's tendered?  It's

11     been shown to the witness.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I've already answered that.

13     I said that I think we had a military expert here, I can't remember his

14     name, or a military person, and he confirmed that it was most probably

15     from the military intelligence service, and that is why it was not

16     tendered into evidence and admitted before we have an authentic

17     explanation for the document's source.  That is my answer.

18             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, that is a misunderstanding.  I want to know

19     from where it was obtained?  Who provided it?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think we obtained this document

21     from the government commission or Secretariat dealing with war crimes in

22     BH.  A member of that commission.  He was a Defence witness.  He is a

23     Defence witness, and we are going to try and ascertain where he came by

24     this document, but we originally used the document with Professor Basara.

25     Thank you.

Page 5042

 1        Q.   Mr. Donia, there's another area we haven't discussed yet, and we

 2     don't have much time --

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If I may, for the sake of planning the day, how

 4     long do you think you will continue your cross-examination; how long does

 5     Mr. Pantelic think he will need; and how long will the redirect take?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I need 20 more

 7     minutes.  I'll try and complete my examination within 20 minutes.  Not

 8     more than half an hour.  I needed two sessions, but I'll do my best and

 9     reduce the time.

10             Can Mr. Pantelic say how much time he needs.

11             MR. PANTELIC: [Overlapping speakers]... I said - sorry - I cannot

12     but I must --

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... whether

14     he will be able to stay within -- fit within that time.

15             MR. PANTELIC: [Overlapping speakers]... to fit myself into this

16     time-frame.  We shall finish by the end of this day with Dr. Donia.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Redirect included?

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm only raising this because I've had

19     such difficulty with the times, but Mr. Cvijetic was given 1 hour

20     30 minutes by Your Honours on the 17th of September, and Mr. Pantelic

21     1 hour.  Mr. Cvijetic is way over the time he was allowed, but that's the

22     situation.

23             Your Honours, as far as re-examination is concerned at the moment

24     I've only got one question, if anything else comes out, there may be more

25     than one, but it's just one.

Page 5043

 1                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  A rough calculation, Mr. Cvijetic, is such that you

 3     should wrap up within the next 20 minutes.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I'll do

 5     my best.

 6        Q.   Mr. Donia, we still have an area to cover, and we have to cover

 7     it in 20 minutes, as you can see.  And it is the attempt on the part of

 8     the international community to overcome the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina

 9     with a plan which was popularly known as the Cutileiro plan, and so on

10     and to forth.  Now, in your report you mention the principles set out in

11     February.  However, I have to show you a Defence exhibit, 1D134 is the

12     number, because [indiscernible] negotiations ended by declaring

13     principles adopted on the 18th of March, 1992, at least that is what it

14     says on the document.  So would you look at those principles now.

15        A.   Where are they?

16        Q.   There you have them.  Yes, document 35, general principles.  Have

17     you found that?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   Are you aware of these principles?  Have you seen the document

20     before?  Do you know about them?

21        A.   Yes, I am aware of the document.  I've seen it, although not in a

22     long while.

23        Q.   Very well.  We won't go into it in greater detail, we'll leave

24     that to experts in constitutional law.  But I'm sure you'll agree with me

25     that that is the document that was signed, or initialled by the parties;

Page 5044

 1     right?  And that it envisaged a sovereign independent Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina composed of three entities; right?

 3        A.   It was certainly not signed.  The Radovan Karadzic made a

 4     statement to the Bosnian Serb Assembly shortly after this saying that we

 5     would never sign anything that hadn't been agreed to.  And the headline

 6     in the Sarajevo newspaper "Oslobodenje" said, "Agreed to But Not Signed."

 7     So this is, I think, as it states on the very last page, the basis for

 8     further negotiations which is the way that the European community

 9     spokesman summarised the agreement in a press statement on the 18th, or

10     early on the 19th, after these negotiations were over.

11        Q.   Yes, but you, Mr. Donia, claim that the agreement, the Lisbon

12     package was signed but that Mr. Izetbegovic withdrew his initials from

13     the document?

14        A.   Could you show me what you are citing?

15        Q.   Yes, I will.  Let me just take a moment to find it.  Yes, here it

16     is.  In the B/C/S it is -- well, in English it is pages 29 and 30 of your

17     report.

18        A.   Which report?

19        Q.   The origins of Republika Srpska.  And you state there the

20     president of the Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic was an unwilling partner

21     in the agreement and withdrew shortly after, et cetera.  I apologise for

22     reading that out very quickly.

23             MS. KORNER:  I think you need to read the full sentence because

24     what was put to him was that he withdrew his initials from the -- what

25     was put to Dr. Donia by Mr. Cvijetic was that he withdrew his initials

Page 5045

 1     from the document.  That's not what Dr. Donia says.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Have you read that paragraph?  So what is your answer, did he

 4     withdraw his initials or not?

 5        A.   No.  I don't believe, as I said, it's, I think, beyond dispute

 6     from the evidence coming from various sources that the document was never

 7     signed.  Obviously it may have been initialled.  I don't know if it was

 8     initialled.  But initialing a document does not constitute signing it.

 9     And certainly, initialing a document that says this will be the basis for

10     further negotiations is, in a sense, not even worth withdrawing from.  It

11     was clearly subject to further discussion and agreement, as I state here,

12     particularly on the question of a map.  And as you know, those agreements

13     did not take place in the course of subsequent talks.

14             Now, I will say that when Izetbegovic returned in late February,

15     that by a decision of the SDA party counsel, they declined to concur in

16     this agreement, and subsequently Izetbegovic added additional conditions

17     or made specific statements that indicated these talks could not go on in

18     this same spirit this way.

19        Q.   Very well, Dr. Donia.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May we just show the video-clip.

21     It's just two minutes long and linked to this particular topic.  I'd like

22     to ask our assistant, Ms. Tania, to activate the video.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's take it back to the

25     beginning, please.

Page 5046

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Donia, I think that this footage denies what you've said, and

 4     the authors, Lord Carrington and the rest, claims that it was both signed

 5     and that the withdrawal of a signature practically meant war.  Do you

 6     accept that --

 7        A.   No, I do not.

 8        Q.   -- thesis of mine?  Not even after you've seen and heard what we

 9     have all seen and heard here?

10             MS. KORNER:  In respect of this video-clip, first of all, I think

11     we better identify for the purposes of the record, where it comes from.

12     Second, who it was who was speaking, the man with the moustache at the

13     end, and thirdly, whether the whole video is available.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, it's my duty to

15     give this information, and that's what Mr. Zecevic has pointed out to me.

16     It is an American-made documentary, it can be found on the internet.  So

17     it's a publicly accessible document.  It's called the war that could have

18     been avoided.  And in this documentary all political and military factors

19     who were active at the time comment the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20     I showed just an excerpt, but the overall duration is 180 minutes.  It's

21     very long.  We will probably use other parts of it in the future.  So

22     it's a publicly-available document, it can be found on the internet, and

23     I will forward the entire documentary to the OTP because we have it and

24     so they can make use of it as a whole.

25             MS. KORNER:  Are we able to identify, please, who the speaker was

Page 5047

 1     with the moustache?  The young man.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, whoever we cannot

 3     identify, we are trying to establish their identity.  Lord Carrington,

 4     David Owen, Philippe Morillon feature in that documentary, but we have

 5     ourselves been unable to identify all of them.  We are working on it,

 6     once we bring some of our own expert witnesses, I hope it will be done.

 7     But we will let you know as soon as we are done identifying all the

 8     persons featuring in that documentary.

 9             Your Honours, I don't know whether this video can be admitted;

10     but if not, I move that it be at least marked for identification.

11             JUDGE HALL:  I'm not even sure about that, because it seems to be

12     we are heading down a side path.  This, as I understand the exchange, is

13     a document, albeit in video form, which is in the public domain.  The --

14     you played it and you asked the witness who is on the stand his views on

15     the observation, and he has disagreed, and in the context of this trial,

16     it seems, to me, that is as far as we can take it.  To the extent that

17     either side would wish to come back to this for some other purposes, if

18     it is publicly available, then we'd see where we go there.  But at this

19     point I don't know that there's anything that could or should be done

20     with this.  Certainly not exhibiting it, and I don't even know about

21     marking it for identification.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the difficulty is the Defence are

23     trying to rely on it as evidence of something which is or may be

24     important.  In other words, that the Cutileiro plan was actually signed,

25     and then there was a withdrawal by Alija Izetbegovic.  Now, there's no

Page 5048

 1     dispute of course that Alija Izetbegovic with withdraw, but it's relying

 2     on edited -- it's an edit of an edit already made for a film, and I am

 3     afraid that real evidence has to be called if this is a point which the

 4     defendant has to pursue.  They cannot rely on it for the truth of what is

 5     said.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And, Mr. Cvijetic, I, for one, have doubts about

 7     understanding your point because I don't see the significance of whether

 8     or not the Cutileiro plan was signed or just initialled by

 9     Mr. Izetbegovic.  You referred us just awhile ago to pages 29 and 30 of

10     the witness's report on the origins of the Republika Srpska, and the only

11     thing I can find in the report is on page 30 in the English version where

12     it says that:

13             "The president of the BH Presidency and of the SDA,

14     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, was a reluctant partner in this agreement, and he

15     backed away from the agreement shortly after returning to Sarajevo from

16     Lisbon in late February.  But the sticking point proved not to be the

17     principles, but a map."

18             So, Mr. Cvijetic, all I can find on the pages to which you have

19     referred us in the report is the notion that Mr. Izetbegovic backed away

20     from the agreement.  And I guess this is undisputed.  So where is the

21     importance, or rather, what is the importance of whether or not

22     Mr. Izetbegovic signed it or just initialled it?

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Furthermore, Mr. Cvijetic, if I may, I don't

24     think I heard one of the officials in this documentary or in this clip,

25     and certainly not Lord Carrington, say or mention that the agreement was

Page 5049

 1     signed.  The signature of the agreement was only mentioned by the makers

 2     of the documentary, not by any one of the officials, if I'm not mistaken.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I remember the

 4     content well, then it is mentioned that the agreement was signed in

 5     Lisbon, and Mr. Zimmerman is quoted as saying that he was a reluctant

 6     partner in the negotiations, et cetera, but the essence of our point is

 7     that there would have been no war if Mr. Izetbegovic had not withdrawn

 8     from the negotiations process.  That's our point.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  I think we should draw a line under this and move

10     on.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

12        Q.   Mr. Donia, I will not deal with the last topic because I have no

13     time for it.  You are going into some other historical aspects, notably

14     the Second World War, and our most serious objections are to that.  You

15     are calling it the creation of history, it starts on the page 36 in the

16     English version.  I believe that this section is full of mistakes and

17     false statements, but I'm moving on to my final part because it is my

18     duty toward the Chamber to give -- to state my opinion of your work.

19             MS. KORNER:  No, it's not your duty, Mr. -- I am sorry,

20     Your Honours, object to that.  It's not Mr. Cvijetic's duty to give his

21     own personal opinion.  It is not proper to say, I believe this section is

22     full of mistakes and false statements.  He can put and challenge what he

23     has to.  He cannot put his own opinion forward.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I agree with Ms. Korner, but I

25     have no time to go through this section in which the witness deals with

Page 5050

 1     the history.  So I withdraw my qualification to that effect.

 2        Q.   Mr. Donia, with a view to finishing as my time has already

 3     elapsed, I believe, the International Court of Justice in The Hague

 4     passed a decision in the suit between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia, thus

 5     acquitting Serbia of committing genocide in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

 6     correct?

 7             MR. CVIJETIC:  Well, Your Honours, you must allow me to finish,

 8     and just three more sentences.

 9        Q.   Sir, you know of that decision, don't you?

10        A.   I'm familiar with the decision insofar as to say that they

11     awarded to Bosnia-Herzegovina the fact that Serbia had, I believe, aided

12     and abetted in genocide or failed to respond to genocide while

13     specifically not granting the point, and I'm sorry, the legal terminology

14     escapes me here, that Serbia had committed genocide.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's the problem.  That's why I got

16     to my feet originally, then I thought I would wait for the question.

17     This is not something that Dr. Donia is an expert in.  The decision can

18     be read by all, and it's not possible to summarise it in the way that

19     Mr. Cvijetic summarised it.  And I should add that because I was actually

20     in that case.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you cannot get my

22     point unless you listen to me.  I only have three sentences.

23        Q.   Mr. Donia, do you agree with the statement that the decision is

24     bad and a betrayal of the principle that international criminal law

25     should punish the crime of genocide?

Page 5051

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Just let me digest that question before the witness

 2     attempts to answer it.  [Microphone not activated] It seems to me that is

 3     a question that --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  That you can't put that question to this witness in

 6     this trial.  Whatever -- when you say the decision, I assume you mean the

 7     decision before the ICJ?  Mr. Cvijetic?  Which, of course, is a Tribunal

 8     which deals with issues between states.  So how that is wholly irrelevant

 9     to the -- what is being -- the purpose of which this witness is being

10     tendered -- has been attended in this trial.  I think the question is

11     inadmissible.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm dealing with the

13     credibility of this witness, and I insist that he reply to this question

14     whether that decision is bad and betrayal of the principles.

15             JUDGE HALL:  With respect, Mr. Cvijetic, the Chamber has ruled.

16     Move on.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

18        Q.   Mr. Donia, did you sign an open letter to the presidents of the

19     International Courts of Justice in The Hague including this Tribunal in

20     which you qualified that decision as a bad decision and a betrayal of the

21     principles of international law, and also stating that as evidence that

22     politics has interfered with the work of that court and this Tribunal as

23     well?  Mr. Donia?

24        A.   I don't recall if I did.

25             MS. KORNER:  Can we have the -- a copy of this open letter,

Page 5052

 1     please.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's Defence exhibit, 1D01 -

 3     can we please see it - 1162.  You can find it at tab 36, Doctor.

 4        Q.   This is the open letter that contains the qualifications I have

 5     just quoted.  The first qualification in the first paragraph and then

 6     further down, and there are many others.  Among the signatories under 4

 7     is Dr. Robert Donia, scientist, and then a list of your positions

 8     follows.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show us the

10     second page of the B/C/S version which shows the signatories.  Page 2 of

11     the B/C/S version.  Under 4, we can see Dr. Robert Donia.

12        Q.   Dr. Donia, do you remember now whether or not you signed this

13     act?

14        A.   I remember the document circulating, and I really do not recall

15     if I acceded to it or not.  It was an e-mail, and I certainly never

16     signed my signature to this document.  I just don't recall.  I will take

17     your word for it that my name there represents some sort of acceding to

18     the document.

19        Q.   Very well.  Can you please answer whether you signed or

20     initialled it?

21        A.   Well, as I said, I did not sign anything.  I gave -- if I gave my

22     accession to it, it was via an e-mail message.

23        Q.   All right.  Then my question is, somebody who accedes to such a

24     document, can that person appear before an international Tribunal of this

25     kind?

Page 5053

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, I think we've understood the witness's

 2     answer to the question.  In any event your 20 minutes has expired.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours, I'll just

 4     provide a comment.  I just seek this document to be tendered into

 5     evidence, 1D01-1162.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D153, Your Honours.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would like to state the reasons

 9     why I tender this document because it essentially -- it has an essential

10     bearing on whether or not this witness is really unbiased.  And that's

11     why we wish to -- we have tendered it as evidence in this case.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Pantelic.

14             MS. KORNER:  Just one, I am so sorry, just one matter on that

15     last document, Mr. Pantelic.  The document which was given to us in

16     advance was given to us in English without any signatories other than --

17     or any names that were attested other than Dr. Marko Hoare and

18     Edina Becirevic, so could I ask for the English version with all the

19     signatories.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the B/C/S

21     version, the original version, which we have, has a list of

22     54 signatories, but the translator who translated it into English, only

23     translated the first two or three names.  But there are 54 signatories of

24     the original, among whom is Mr. Donia.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So it's simply a matter of tidying up the exhibit.

Page 5054

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I'm simply asking for the full version in

 2     English, yes.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There's no problem.  We'll have

 4     the translation service translate the entire list of signatories, and

 5     we'll submit it.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

 8        Q.   Good day, Dr. Donia.  Long time no see.

 9        A.   Good to see you again.

10        Q.   Pleasure is mine, Dr. Donia.

11             It was in 2001 when we confronted our positions in the Simic

12     case, I believe.  It was September 2001, I believe, yeah.

13        A.   I believe that's right.

14        Q.   And don't understand me wrong, but I'm very proud that only six

15     of your findings were put in the Simic judgement.  This is sort of my

16     success that I successfully challenged your findings.

17             But anyhow, Dr. Donia, let's go to business.  First of all,

18     between 2001 and to the present day, I believe that you visited region of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina very often or a couple of times per year, or I don't

20     know.

21        A.   Anywhere from one to four times a year approximately.

22        Q.   Were you able during your visit to the region to pay more often

23     visit to territory of Republika Srpska or Republika Srpska institutions?

24        A.   Yes, I've visited the Republika Srpska, I think, almost every

25     time I've been there.

Page 5055

 1        Q.   Could you be more specific last time you were visiting

 2     Republika Srpska on a private basis being present at wedding ceremony,

 3     but now I believe you were visiting archives or institutions of

 4     Republika Srpska.  Just a few words about the purpose of your stay in

 5     Republika Srpska.

 6        A.   I have not visited archives in the Republika Srpska.  I visited a

 7     number of towns and cities, both in eastern and, you know, area, the

 8     Danube valley and Bijeljina, and in western part as well.  Usually those

 9     are one-day tourist visits, perhaps doing some interviewing with local

10     people as I've had the occasion.

11        Q.   And these interviews were related to your work, your preparing

12     kind of survey or a book regarding the events?

13        A.   I have no specific book project, but they were done with the

14     intent of compiling a sort of a sense over time of changes in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole, of which of course Republika Srpska is an

16     important part.  If they had a specific focus, it would be to try to

17     understand local relations within individual municipalities.

18        Q.   You are founder or co-founder of Donji Vakuf Foundation.  Is it

19     still active?

20        A.   No, it's not.

21        Q.   Why?

22        A.   I, that is, we, dissolved the association, donated the last sum

23     of funds that were there to the University of Michigan, and it ceased

24     operations.

25        Q.   It was only recently, I believe, a couple of years ago, or?

Page 5056

 1        A.   I think about 2005.

 2        Q.   Did your foundation during it's existence donated certain funds

 3     to institutions -- some of the institution of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   Very little.  I don't think there was any direct donation to a

 5     Bosnian institution.  Most of the donations were made to the University

 6     of Michigan, St. Lawrence University in Canada, a project called the

 7     business development initiative, which was based in San Francisco, and

 8     one or two other 501C3 organisations, that is tax-exempt foundations

 9     based in the United States.

10        Q.   I understand.  And in relation to these donations to

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina institutions, could you be more specific to whom you

12     donated certain funds?

13        A.   I don't recall that we gave any direct donation to any

14     institution of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the foundation.  As I say, they

15     went to the bodies that I just named.

16        Q.   I see.  You consider yourself as, I would say, a friend of

17     Bosnian Muslim people and individuals?  I mean, your work is closely

18     related to the issues there in Bosnia.

19        A.   Two questions.  I think the answer to the second is certainly,

20     yes.  I devote much of my scholarly attention to Bosnia.  Yes, I consider

21     myself a friend of Bosnians, of all three peoples, four peoples, and

22     others, and of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        Q.   I appreciate that.  And being an expert, I believe you were hired

24     by the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in this process before the

25     ICJ between Bosnia and Serbia.  Did you act on behalf of Bosnian team?

Page 5057

 1        A.   I was asked for a written submission which I wrote, but did not

 2     deliver, nor did I testify in that case.

 3        Q.   And you were approached by whom, specifically, to do that job?

 4        A.   I forget the name of the Dutch attorney representing Bosnia who

 5     approached me about preparing a report.  Van den Biesen I believe was his

 6     name.

 7        Q.   And you were working closely in that case in Bosnia with your

 8     learned friend Ms. Korner at that time?  She was also involved I think on

 9     behalf of Bosnia?

10        A.   We had, I guess, one or two conversations in the course of that,

11     but I wouldn't say I was working closely with her.

12        Q.   But she was working on behalf of Bosnia, I believe?

13        A.   Well, she was working as a part of that team at that time.

14        Q.   And did you get some fee or remuneration for your work that you

15     just mentioned?

16        A.   As I recall I did.  I received a compensation for the report.

17        Q.   And probably you are aware that the whole process before the ICJ

18     is initiated by the Rump Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, meaning that

19     Serbian representatives even today and during this process never --

20     Serbian representatives in institution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, never gave

21     their consent to these proceedings?  Are you aware of that fact?

22        A.   Well, at the time the case was commenced, the Presidency of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina did have two Serb members.  So I would disagree with

24     your proposition.

25        Q.   And when was that?

Page 5058

 1        A.   As I recall, the action was begun in early 1993.

 2        Q.   And who was the member on behalf of Serbia nation in this

 3     Presidency?

 4        A.   It was Mirko Pejanovic was one.  And the other was a woman whose

 5     name I can't recall right now, Mijata, or Miljana, it's a double last

 6     name, I'm sorry, I don't recall the name.

 7        Q.   And that gentleman, Pejanovic, he was duly elected on elections

 8     in Bosnia?  How he became president?  Because as far as I remember, the

 9     official representative of Serbian nation in Bosnian Presidency were

10     Madam Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic.  So how Mr. Pejanovic suddenly became a

11     member of Presidency?

12        A.   Drs. Plavsic and Koljevic resigned on April 7, 1992, and the

13     Presidency then faced the question of how to replace them.  They examined

14     the electoral lists for the Presidency in the voting of 1990 and went

15     down the list to the next candidates in the Serbian nation group.  Those

16     were Mirko Pejanovic and Nenad Kecmanovic.

17        Q.   And tell me, Dr. Donia, you are not constitutional expert, I

18     believe.

19        A.   You are certainly right about that, yes.

20        Q.   You are not expert in public international law?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   You are historian basically?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And in your work inevitably, you became familiar with a certain,

25     I would say, aspect of constitutional law when the public international

Page 5059

 1     law I think, with all due respect, more than other experts in this field

 2     because all these years testifying before the ICTY being an expert on

 3     behalf of Bosnia before the ICJ, et cetera, I think in basic terms you

 4     are very, very familiar with the issues of Bosnia constitution of

 5     international agreements related to Bosnia; am I right?

 6        A.   I wouldn't say very familiar, but I've gained some knowledge of

 7     those, both of those fields.  And again, I did not testify before the

 8     ICJ.

 9        Q.   Fair enough.  But in light of these facts, could you tell me in

10     1992 after the process of over-voting of Serbian delegates in October

11     1991, how would you -- how would you describe Bosnia?  Was Bosnia a state

12     with all prerogatives like central government, like control of territory,

13     like nation, all other elements which are necessary for Bosnia?

14             So was the Bosnia state international public law terms or not?

15        A.   Well, the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was in effect

16     in -- from 1974 with amendments in 1990 continued to be the constitution

17     of Bosnia-Herzegovina until additional amendments, I believe the first

18     amendments were 1994, and continued to prevail as the constitutional

19     document.  Obviously the central government, the Presidency of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina did not control the entire territory of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war.

22        Q.   To be precise --

23             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, it is 12.05.  These prefatory

24     questions, no doubt, will continue after the break in 20 minutes.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you.

Page 5060

 1                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is being escorted back to the

 4     stand, I would remind Mr. Pantelic, if you would keep your eye on the

 5     clock in LiveNote, and you should wind up at 1.20 to allow time for

 6     redirect.  And then there are two rulings which the Tribunal has it to

 7     make so we can adjourn on time at 1.45.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. PANTELIC:

10        Q.   Welcome back, Mr. Donia.

11        A.   Thank you.

12        Q.   Before the break we were discussing the issue of the control of

13     the territory and conditions for the state to be a state.  So I'm put to

14     you, Dr. Donia, that from the first period of severe fighting in Bosnia

15     which we could say, let's say, April 1992, until the end of 1995, I put

16     to you that Bosnia and Herzegovina was not a state in terms of

17     international public law with regard to the control of territory, nation,

18     and central government?  Do you agree with me or not?  Just yes or no,

19     please.

20        A.   I can't -- I don't know enough about international public law to

21     make that judgement.

22        Q.   But you could agree with me that during all this period between

23     April 1992 and the end of 1995, at least two or three governments

24     operated within Bosnia and Herzegovina such as Bosnia and Muslim

25     controlled government in Sarajevo and Republika Srpska government and

Page 5061

 1     Herceg-Bosna government, will you agree with me or not?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And all these three sort of, I would not say entities, but let's

 4     say all these three subjects, they also got their own police forces,

 5     would you agree with me or not?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And at a certain stage in accordance with the international

 8     efforts, namely US State Department efforts, I think it was in 1994 where

 9     Muslim Croat federation was formed, I believe?

10        A.   The Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina was formed in, I believe,

11     March of 1994.

12        Q.   Between Bosnian Muslim and Croatian representatives, I believe?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And in general terms, would you agree with me that during the war

15     period in Bosnia, Bosnian Muslims and -- or Bosniaks, of course, because

16     they renamed them I think in 1993, something like that, and Bosnian

17     Croats, were fighting against Bosnian Serbs?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And would you agree with me because you are an expert in, let's

20     say, Bosnian history and all these developments in the Balkans, that

21     during the Second World War a puppet state of NDH actually, puppet state

22     of Croats under the Hitler's regime, they were very close to

23     Bosnian Muslim military formations?  I mean, Ustasha and Muslim -- and

24     Bosnian Muslim, they were very close in this warring operations in

25     Bosnia?

Page 5062

 1        A.   That's kind of a complex question, and I think the answer overall

 2     is no.  The Bosnian Muslims in the Second World War were on both sides,

 3     if you will, of the struggle or all sides.  Some of them were on -- I

 4     would say the most were probably either a part of the Ustasha government

 5     or willing to serve in Ustasha military formations very early in the war,

 6     and then began to defect particularly to join the partisans.  So that by

 7     the end of the war, in fact I would even say by 1993, there were few,

 8     very few Muslims that were part of the Ustasha or independent state of

 9     Croatia regime.

10        Q.   But you are aware of the existence of SS units called

11     Handzar Division which was actually practically a unit with the -- at

12     that time Bosnian Muslim members?

13        A.   Yes, I believe I referred to that in my ARK paper.  The

14     Handzar Division was basically commanded by German officers and had

15     Muslim non-commissioned officers and enlisted men formed, I believe, in

16     1943 directly under German auspices.

17        Q.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the --

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Donia, just for the record, in your previous

19     answer about the Muslim Bosnians joining the partisans, you referred to

20     1993.

21             THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, if I said 1993, I meant 1943.  I'm

22     usually wrong by less than 50 years.

23             MR. PANTELIC:  Well, to some extent, Mr. Donia, something similar

24     in history, but we'll come to that.

25        A.   I was afraid you would be tempted to say that.

Page 5063

 1        Q.   Dr. Donia, would you agree with me that Ustasha regime actually

 2     used the word for Bosnian Muslims in Second World War Croatian flowers;

 3     am I right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   So which means that even from Second World War, these sort of

 6     alliance which we have seen during the past war of 1992 and 1995,

 7     actually, it was in existence?  I mean sympathy at least or co-operation?

 8        A.   No, I wouldn't agree.  I think the Muslim participation was never

 9     in the -- NDH was never strong enough to call it an alliance.  And on the

10     other hand, I think the relations between the HDZ and SDA deteriorated

11     seriously for much of the war in Bosnia starting in probably October of

12     1992.

13        Q.   You recall, Dr. Donia, it is very -- I agree with you, it's very

14     hard to generalise issues, but we could say that we have numerous

15     examples during the period of 1992 and 1995 where -- actually, from even

16     1991, immediately after the multi-party elections in Bosnia where the

17     several levels like politics or military co-operation or police

18     co-operation, in fact Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats were acting

19     against Bosnian Serbs; am I right?

20        A.   There are numerous instances of that, yes.

21        Q.   Maybe you are aware or not, but, Mr. Cvijetic was kind enough to

22     bring to my attention the document.  It was in 1992, it's a logistic base

23     of Handzar Division, Albanian Sandzak Brigade at Lukavica in Sarajevo,

24     but we shall deal with it in Defence case, I believe, but, Dr. Donia, are

25     you aware in your work that SDA officials sent Bosnian Muslim of young

Page 5064

 1     people or police officers for training in Croatia during 1991 and 1992?

 2     Are you aware of this process?

 3        A.   I am aware that some of that took place, yes.

 4        Q.   And, Dr. Donia, being -- I consider you as really expert on Islam

 5     and Muslim cause, I would say, from what I got here.  Now, I would like

 6     to have certain comments that you made during the examination-in-chief

 7     with regard to the Islamic declaration work of late President

 8     Alija Izetbegovic.

 9             It is the OTP document 65 ter 03388.  In the meantime, while we

10     are waiting this document to be visible at the screen, you are aware that

11     this Prosecution office actually conducted investigation, criminal

12     investigation against Alija Izetbegovic, but he died and it was closed.

13     Are you aware of this fact?

14        A.   I'm not specifically aware of it.  I've always assumed that it

15     was underway.

16        Q.   Well --

17        A.   At some point, yes.

18        Q.   Just for the record then, your information it was a press

19     briefing on 22nd of October, 2003, where this fact actually was

20     published.

21             So, now, we have a Muslim declaration, Islamic declaration here.

22     First of all, can we take a look on the first page of this document,

23     please.

24             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Mr. Pantelic, what happened was we tendered

25     it as an exhibit, but -- and it was made an exhibit but only the pages we

Page 5065

 1     actually referred to.  If Your Honours recall, you said you didn't want

 2     the whole book, just the relevant parts.  So all that's in e-court are

 3     three pages, which does not include page 1.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  I was of the impression that initially on 65 ter,

 5     it was -- but, no.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Unfortunately once it was admitted as exhibit, all

 7     that was admitted -- so it's been truncated down to just those three

 8     pages.  Sorry.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  Okay.  We could -- I think that maybe our

10     Trial Chamber can help us.  I have a number of -- yes, it is under

11     1D00-3855.  So it's in e-court, probably we could use this reference to

12     go through this document, and then following the same practice like our

13     friends from Prosecution, we could tender just particular parts, not

14     documents in it's entirety.

15             JUDGE HALL:  That seems to be the most efficient approach.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Because we are not a library here, and we have to

17     work with the criminal issues.

18        Q.   So okay, let's wind up, Dr. Donia, I will give you a few quotes

19     from Islamic declaration, and then we could have a look on it.  So it is

20     on the page 24 English version where Mr. Izetbegovic says in his work the

21     following:

22             "The Muslim peoples will never accept anything which is expressly

23     opposed to Islam, because Islam is not just a collection of ideas and

24     laws, but has transcended into love and feeling.  He who rises up against

25     Islam will reap nothing but hatred and resistance."

Page 5066

 1             I'm putting to you Dr. Donia, that this particular part of

 2     Islamic declaration actually calls to -- not to friendship and

 3     co-operation, but rather to action and conflict.  Would you agree with me

 4     or not?

 5        A.   No, I don't believe so.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Fair enough.  Now we have Islamic declaration

 7     on our screens, and you see at the top -- right top part of English

 8     version:

 9             "Our goal:  Islamisation of Muslims."  Really no one can say that

10     is against this idea.  And then:  "Our motto:  Believe and fight."  Well,

11     with this, someone might be afraid.  What is your comment on this motto,

12     believe and fight?

13        A.   I think it's fairly standard rhetoric in proclamations in any

14     faith that are designed to encourage a religious awakening among people.

15        Q.   Yes, but can you give me, speaking of religious issues, can you

16     give me an example in contemporary world and time, where the other

17     religions like Buddhism, like Christian religion, like, I don't know,

18     Scientific church, or conducted terrorist actions against civilians,

19     against values of civilised world, where any of other religions, fight

20     against the values of contemporary world, bombed buildings, make suicide

21     actions, give me an example of the other religions, if you have to that

22     extent?

23        A.   Let me remind you that this was written in the 1960s, and it's

24     relationship to anything that is happening in terms of Islamic terrorism,

25     to me, is a cheap shot.  And I think every religion, except perhaps

Page 5067

 1     Buddhism, has had its time in fighting for its faith.  Certainly history

 2     of Christianity in that respect --

 3        Q.   Dr. Donia, leave it aside.  I don't dispute it.  I'm speaking

 4     about the contemporary world, I'm speaking of the period where

 5     Mr. Izetbegovic wrote this book that was in 1970, I believe, up to today,

 6     to present day.  I'm speaking about the period of 39, almost 40 years,

 7     and let me remind you, and you will agree with me, that at that time I

 8     think that you mentioned that somewhere, that it was an attempt to work

 9     on this Islamic issue after the the Israeli Arab wars, so that was the

10     time it was made, yes?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And then, Dr. Donia, I'm putting to you that this was a,

13     actually, milestone, this was a work which made a road of conflict in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina based on the followings facts:  That the initial idea

15     of Bosnian Muslims were to, through the process of majorisation, control

16     all Bosnia-Herzegovina, would you agree with me or not?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Then, Dr. Donia, let's see this page --

19             MR. PANTELIC:  First of all, can I tender this first page of

20     Islamic declaration as exhibit, Defence exhibit, so that we can move on,

21     on the other parts of Islamic declaration.

22             JUDGE HALL:  There being no objection on the ground of relevance,

23     I suppose it's admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D31, Your Honours.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Then can we take a look on page 24 of English

Page 5068

 1     version of Islamic declaration, which is the page 17 in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   This is page 24, it starts with, "the Muslim peoples will never

 3     accept anything..."

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  Can we have page 17 of B/C/S.  This is a chapter,

 5     so we need a page.  Page 17 of B/C/S and page 24 of English version.

 6     Yes.  Page 17, please.  This is second paragraph of B/C/S.  And we are

 7     looking for English.

 8        Q.   That was a part that we discussed prior to previous issue where

 9     it's actually call for resistance.  This is a message of Mr. Izetbegovic

10     where he said, "he who rises up against Islam will reap nothing but

11     hatred and resistance."  So I'm putting to you that this particular part

12     is also calling for conflict and for interreligious troubles in Bosnia.

13     Would you agree with me or not?

14        A.   Where does it say anything about Bosnia here?

15        Q.   This is the basis for all actions on behalf of all Bosnian

16     Muslims in Bosnia.  This is our position, Dr. Donia.  You can agree or

17     disagree.

18        A.   And I with respectfully disagree.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Could we have this page as exhibit, please.

21     Page 24 in English version.  And page 17 in B/C/S.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D32, Your Honours.

24             MR. PANTELIC:  Now, could we have on our screen page 26 in

25     English version, which is page 19 of B/C/S.  Page 26?  No, no, this is

Page 5069

 1     35.  Page 19 in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   While we are waiting for this particular page, I will bring to

 3     your attention the following part:  Mr. Izetbegovic says in his work:

 4             "An Islamic society without an Islamic authority is incomplete

 5     and without power.  Islamic governance without an Islamic society is

 6     either utopia or violence."

 7             And then he goes to say the other thing:

 8             "Generally speaking, a Muslim does not exist as a sole

 9     individual.  If he wishes to live and survive as a Muslim, he must create

10     an environment, a community, a system.  He must not change the world or

11     himself submit to change.  History has no instance of any truly Islamic

12     movement which was not at the same time a political movement."

13             I'm putting to you, Dr. Donia, that this is a basis of work of

14     Mr. Izetbegovic and his party SDA in Bosnia to create environment to

15     occupy all non-Muslim areas of Bosnia, to have a central-controlled

16     government, to achieve this goal?  I'm putting to you, would you agree or

17     disagree with me?

18        A.   No, I wouldn't agree that a document written in 1970 serves as

19     the platform of a party formed in 1990.

20        Q.   But the fact of common knowledge, Dr. Donia, is that through the

21     process of majorisation and the violation of the rights of constitutional

22     nation in Bosnia provoked actually this terrible consequences in Bosnia,

23     you agree with me or not?

24        A.   That's real stretch.  I would not agree that you can take a

25     linear causation from the contents of the Islamic declaration to

Page 5070

 1     majorisation or out-voting, that's just not to me -- in Bosnia that's

 2     just not so me a stretch that you could make.

 3        Q.   But the fact is that it was over-voting and majorisation in

 4     parliament in October 1991, am I right?

 5        A.   That's your characterisation of it.  I would share the fact that

 6     the SDS leadership also characterised it as such, but other people at the

 7     time did not.

 8        Q.   So you want to say to us that even learned scholars like

 9     Bob Hayden and other authors were saying that it was a trigger point for

10     conflict in Bosnia, this over-voting in Bosnia?  But you say that there

11     are people with the wrong conclusions?

12        A.   Bob Hayden is usually wrong, but I don't have a specific

13     conclusion of his that I know of that I could point to.  If you have a

14     statement to put to me, I'd be glad to comment on it.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  First of all, Your Honour, can we have this

16     particular part of Islam declaration exhibited.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  And then could we have -- we shall be back

19     Mr. Donia, with this particular parts for Bob Hayden.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D33, Your Honours.

21             MR. PANTELIC:  And could we now have on our screen, page 30,

22     English version of Islamic declaration.  And this is page 22 of B/C/S.

23     Page 30 and 22.  Yes.

24        Q.   Maybe you can help me, Dr. Donia, these particular parties which

25     I'm interested in, "there can be neither peace nor co-existence between

Page 5071

 1     the Islamic religion and known Islamic social and political

 2     institutions."  But maybe is this on this page?  Ah, yes.

 3             MR.  PANTELIC:  Maybe -- I cannot find it on this particular -- I

 4     will ask the assistance of my associates.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Mr. Pantelic, could I just like to retract and

 6     apologise for my earlier comment about Bob Hayden.  He is sometimes

 7     wrong.  We get together every year, identify those few things that we do

 8     agree on, and usually have a lunch and a drink, but I didn't mean to

 9     impugn his -- impugn him at that level in any case.  So my apologies to

10     you and to him for having said that.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Dr. Donia, I will pass this message to

12     him as soon as I meet him.  Whoever meet him first.

13             THE WITNESS:  So will I.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic.

15             It's very hard to -- could we enlarge this page 22 in B/C/S.  I

16     cannot find the English.

17             THE WITNESS:  Perhaps on the previous page.

18             MR. PANTELIC:  I have a problem with the -- it's 22 page in

19     B/C/S, first and most important conclusion is conclusion of

20     non-co-existence between the Islamic religion, but I cannot see that on

21     English version.

22        Q.   Anyhow, I will read it in Serbian and then later on we could find

23     the exact passage in English.  So in Serbian it says:

24             [Interpretation] "The first and most important conclusion of this

25     kind certainly is the conclusion about the incompatibility of Islam and

Page 5072

 1     non-Islamic systems.  There is no peace or co-existence between the

 2     Islamic faith and non-Islamic social and political institutions."

 3             [In English] So, Dr. Donia, I'm putting to you that the leader of

 4     SDA, Mr. Izetbegovic, in his early work actually anticipated and created

 5     a policy of his party in Bosnia, and that the main goal was to start the

 6     process of Islamisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina against the other

 7     constituent nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina, would you agree with me or

 8     not?

 9        A.   As I understood your proposition, your proposition was that this

10     anticipated and created a policy of his party, no, I wouldn't agree with

11     that.  You have, I think, come across the clearest statement of

12     Izetbegovic in the Islamic declaration that Islamic and non-Islamic

13     societies are incompatible, and I will certainly agree that that is very

14     clearly stated here.  But it was at a time when he was addressing no one

15     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, no one in Yugoslavia, writing a piece about

16     various types of Islamic societies, and the need for an Islamic revival,

17     and very far from a world in which multi-party elections might be held.

18             Just having been in Yugoslavia at that time, as you and I both

19     were, having him think that he was looking forward to such a time is, to

20     me, inconceivable.

21        Q.   But this is a fact of common knowledge, Dr. Donia, that many of

22     Mujahedin forces, and later on Al Qaeda members, were in Bosnia on the

23     basis of he official call of Bosnian Muslims to fight for Islam cause, am

24     I right or not?

25        A.   I don't know that there was an official call to Al Qaeda to fight

Page 5073

 1     with the Bosnian Muslims.  There was at least consent on the part of

 2     senior SDA figures to the addition of Mujahedin to the armed forces of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, yes.

 4        Q.   And these Mujahedins, they committed horrible crimes against

 5     Serbs, for example, in mount of Ozren, probably you are aware, they

 6     decapitated Serbian soldiers, are you aware of this fact?

 7        A.   I am aware of the allegations.  I'm going to refrain

 8     characterising them as crimes just on principle because it's a conclusion

 9     perhaps yet to be reached, but I would agree with you that terrible

10     things were committed against Serbs and Croats by Mujahedin.

11        Q.   And you want to tell us that this particular part of Islamic

12     declaration is speaking about the peaceful co-existence between the

13     people and nation and religions.  I'm putting to you, Dr. Donia, that

14     this is a basic step towards the tragic events in Bosnia, would you agree

15     with me or not?

16        A.   No, I don't agree it was a basic step toward violence in Bosnia.

17        Q.   But it was a step.  It was a step.  I mean, the influence of this

18     work and the idea was of certain significance for the tragic events in

19     Bosnia, could you agree with me or not?

20        A.   I don't know what significance you would mean by that.  In the

21     sense that it's a part of the big canvass of history that's a backdrop to

22     events, I suppose I would certainly grant that.  But as I say, I reject a

23     notion of linear causality, particularly to the way that you've

24     characterised events in 1991.

25        Q.   This book, it speaks for itself, Dr. Donia.

Page 5074

 1             MR. PANTELIC:  Could we have Exhibit number for this page,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D34, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is this still page 30, Mr. Pantelic?

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  This is page 22 in B/C/S and 30 -- this is 30,

 7     yes.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you so much.

10             And then can we see page 49 and 50 of the English version, and

11     this is the page of 37 of B/C/S.

12        Q.   In the meantime, I will read this particular part, and then we

13     could take a look on it in order to speed up things.

14             Dr. Donia, Mr. Izetbegovic in his work says the following:

15             "The Islamic order can only be established in countries where

16     Muslims represent the majority of the population.  If this is not the

17     case, the Islamic order is reduced to mere power (as the other element in

18     Islamic society is missing)."  And then he said, "and may turn to

19     violence."

20             How do you see this particular part of his work?  How do you

21     understand?

22        A.   Well, I see it as part of his very broad effort to bring about or

23     contribute to bringing about an Islamic revival, and specifically to

24     address the fact that an Islamic society must thrive, it must flourish as

25     a part of an Islamic revival.  It's not specific to Bosnia, his comments

Page 5075

 1     are not specific to federal Yugoslavia.  It is a general statement of

 2     principle that he made in the context of discussing a couple of dozen

 3     different Islamic countries at the time.

 4        Q.   And the second part of page 50 English version and 37 of B/C/S

 5     is, with regard to the minorities, he says:

 6             "The non-Muslim [realtime transcript read in error "known

 7     Muslim"] minorities within an Islamic state, on condition their loyal," I

 8     am saying, "on condition they are loyal, enjoy religious freedom and all

 9     protection."

10             So tell me, Dr. Donia, how do you understand this particular part

11     "on condition they are loyal"?  If they are not loyal to majority, what

12     would happen with this minority?  Could you explain me that?  How do you

13     understand this passage?

14        A.   Again go back to its context at the time, I think it's a kind of

15     an accepted principle of just about any state that groups within it

16     should be loyal to the state per se or to the government.

17        Q.   Excellent point.  So you would agree with me that within

18     Republika Srpska an individual, no matter of ethnicity, who is against

19     the system, against the constitutional order might be punished and be

20     processed in terms of criminal law, or against him can be instigated

21     certain proceedings.  Would you agree with me or not, on the same

22     principles that is you just mentioned?

23        A.   What period are you talking about?

24        Q.   Between 1992 and 1995.

25        A.   Well, whatever criminal law existed at the time as a part of the

Page 5076

 1     legal system of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the constitution of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina would have applied.  I don't know enough about that to

 3     say what it would be.

 4        Q.   But as a matter of principle, if you said that minorities within

 5     an Islamic state on condition that they are loyal, they enjoy rights,

 6     which you explained that if it's not the case, then they will face

 7     certain legal consequences, I'm putting to you if, for example, a

 8     minority, member of minority ethnic community in Republika Srpska is not

 9     loyal to that system, he is also can be faced with the charges; am I

10     right or not?

11        A.   This is your fundamental fallacy, Bosnia-Herzegovina was not an

12     Islamic state.  It was a civic state recognised by the international

13     community or many dozens of countries with its own constitutional system

14     of which the Muslims were one group, and so the linearity here again

15     doesn't apply.  The state that existed in that period from 1992 to 1995

16     just could not be described even remotely as an Islamic republic or

17     Islamic state.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, in the transcript at page 71, line 1, where

19     Mr. Pantelic's quotation, the original reads, n-o-n Muslims, but

20     transcript reads as, k-n-o-w-n Muslims, at page 71, line 1, which

21     obviously changes the context of what the --

22             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  Could we have

23     exhibit number for this page 49 and 50 in B/C/S, and page 37 -- sorry,

24     sorry, page 49 and 50 in English and 37 in B/C/S, please.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

Page 5077

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D35, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, it's 1.23.

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  Just one particular part, Your Honour, and I'm

 4     very sorry to say, but I must finish, but I would need much more time.

 5     This is page 69 and 70 in English version and 53 and 54 in B/C/S.  The

 6     particular passage here is that Mr. Izetbegovic is speaking about the

 7     relations between Jews and, as I understand, Arab regimes, Palestinian

 8     issue, et cetera.  And then in this particular part he said:

 9             "There is only one solution for the Islamic movement and all

10     Muslims in the world, to continue the struggle, to widen and lengthen the

11     day by day, year by year, whatever the sacrifice or however long it may

12     take."

13             I put to you, Dr. Donia, that this is a clear message of

14     Mr. Izetbegovic and the basis of his policy, although I can admit, maybe

15     it's not a public policy, but the acts of Muslim -- Bosnian Muslim regime

16     in Bosnia led to these consequences.  Would you agree with me or not,

17     that this was the basis for a process of majorisation of Muslim --

18     Bosnian Muslim in Bosnia?

19        A.   No, I do not agree that it was the basis for whatever you may

20     choose to characterise happened in October of 1991.

21             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Dr. Donia.  Can we have a number,

22     please, Your Honours, for these particular pages.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.  I thought it had been admitted

24     earlier.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2D36, Your Honours.

Page 5078

 1             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   And, Dr. Donia, tell me and tell the Chamber, please, what was

 3     your financial remuneration for being expert in Prosecution office?  I

 4     mean, were you acted on a pro-bono basis or professional basis?  I'm not

 5     asking for figures, but just general terms you were paid for your work.

 6        A.   Is not enough a good answer or?  I received the witness fee of

 7     200 dollars a day --

 8        Q.   No, no, don't go into figures?

 9        A.   Plus a per diem.

10        Q.   I understand.  You were paid by Bosnia-Herzegovina government for

11     your engagement before ICJ, I believe?

12        A.   I was paid by the, yes, by the attornies for the

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina government for the report.

14        Q.   Yes.  And in fact, you are -- you were in Sarajevo before -- I

15     mean, during Tito regime, during socialist regime, you were many times,

16     yes?

17        A.   Yes, I was there -- not many times.  I was there in 1965, I was

18     there in 1974, 1975 for a year, and then again in 1978, then again 1985.

19        Q.   And comparing this period to today's time, in terms of number of

20     mosques in Sarajevo, what would you -- what you can say to us?

21        A.   There are many more mosques in Sarajevo today than there were in

22     1975.

23        Q.   And do you remember - because Sarajevo was, and to some extent is

24     still one of my very favourite cities in former Yugoslavia, good food,

25     good people and good atmosphere - do you remember, Dr. Donia, what was

Page 5079

 1     the colour of the street plates at that time during Tito regime?  I can

 2     tell you it was blue.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You agree with me?

 5        A.   Yes, with white -- usually with white letters.

 6        Q.   With white letters.  And now in these days, these street plates

 7     are.

 8        A.   Green.

 9        Q.   Green.  And green is favourite colour for Muslims, I believe?

10        A.   It is.

11        Q.   And the names of the streets changed, for example, now we have a

12     lot of names in Sarajevo like, I would not say Mujahedin, but I would say

13     Muslim fighters for the cause, Islamic heros, not so many Serbian and

14     Croatian names now, I believe?

15        A.   There are a few.

16        Q.   A few.

17        A.   And I think you could basically say that the former pantheon of

18     heroes, partisan figures, and major political leaders of the partisans

19     and communists have been superseded by other figures, many of whom come

20     from the Bosnian Muslim group or from the history of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     from all groups.

22        Q.   Dr. Donia, I putting to you --

23             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic.

24             MR. PANTELIC:  This is the end, Your Honour.  It's the end.  My

25     great finale.

Page 5080

 1        Q.   Dr. Donia, I'm putting to you that you are a fighter for a Muslim

 2     and Islam cause, that you are very close to Bosnian Muslim regime in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that you are biased, and that your findings are

 4     really far from a fair assessment of the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5     Would you agree with me or not?  Yes or no?

 6        A.   That is easy, no.

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Dr. Donia, have a nice day, bye-bye.

 8             MS. KORNER:  I hope that's no to all four questions, Dr. Donia,

 9     because there were four in that long one.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a practical

12     proposal.  I think you've noticed that both the Prosecution and the

13     Defence when it came to this document, the Islamic declaration, they

14     extracted only fragments from the document.  I did not have time to deal

15     with the document.  I did intend to deal with the document in the same

16     way, but I wouldn't have been consistent because during the proofing

17     session I did draw Dr. Donia's attention to the danger of taking just

18     extracts out.  The Islamic declaration is a political pamphlet, not a

19     religious pamphlet.  It is very short.  We have admitted into evidence

20     reports that were far longer.  Perhaps it would be fair and correct

21     because we have it on e-court in the B/C/S and English in its entirety,

22     that it be tendered as an entire document and then leave it up to you to

23     assess it, to evaluate the document as a whole.  What value it has with

24     respect to the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 5081

 1             JUDGE HALL:  You say it's a short document, what do you mean by

 2     short?

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Is it a book?

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's a small booklet, small

 6     format, just 40 pages, and we had reports that were over 100 pages long,

 7     but historically speaking, it's a very important document.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, if it's of that volume, then I agree with you.

 9     So the Registry would then have the unenviable task of revising the

10     numbering system to accommodate the one document.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I wonder if you want to go back to --

12     originally, we tendered it as an early exhibit, and if we -- as the --

13     the whole book, then it becomes P whatever -- P6.

14             JUDGE HALL:  P6.  Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you for that, Mr. Cvijetic.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, in this case, entire book will

18     become Exhibit P6 and Exhibits 2D31 to 2D36 will be removed from the

19     records.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you.

21             Ms. Korner --

22             MS. KORNER:  I just do have the one question.

23                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner.

24        Q.   Dr. Donia, it arises out of what you were asked this morning

25     about Mr. Karadzic's speech to the Assembly in October 1991.  And you

Page 5082

 1     were asked at the LiveNote page 21, lines 23 to 25 -- or 20, rather, to

 2     22 is the question -- you were asked if you agreed that it had to be

 3     interpreted in the context of the entire speech, and you said you did.

 4     And I also think it should be taken in the context of other utterances

 5     that he made in the immediate several days preceding this one on the

 6     floor of the Assembly.

 7             Are you able to simply tell the Court what other utterances you

 8     had in mind?

 9        A.   Yes.  There are a number of telephone intercepts between

10     Dr. Karadzic and other SDS leaders, and I believe his brother, Luka who I

11     think at the time was in Montenegro, in which he used language very

12     similar to the final sentences of that speech about the Muslims

13     disappearing, and in fact elaborated, gave some numbers about the Muslims

14     who would disappear without assigning a subject to who was going to

15     disappear them, he referred in these conversations repeatedly to the

16     Muslims disappearing as a people.

17        Q.   Yes, thank you very much, Dr. Donia, that's all I ask in

18     re-examination.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just have a

21     suggestion to make.  Under P6 on e-court, we only have the three pages

22     that the Prosecution referred to at the time, but as we have had the

23     whole document translated into English, I will give it's number.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel repeat the number of the

25     document, please.

Page 5083

 1                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic, the book having been on the 65

 3     ter list, it then having been converted to an exhibit, P6, the whole book

 4     is now in.  Is that the point -- is that what you were raising?  Thank

 5     you.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, if the whole book is in, then

 7     there's no problem.  I've been given the information that it has.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel repeat the number slowly please

 9     again.

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE HALL:  For the moment it is not in e-court, but it's in the

12     process of being put in.

13             Dr. Donia, we thank you for your attendance before the Tribunal.

14     We wish you a safe journey back to your home.  I neglected when I greeted

15     you this morning to wish you all the best for the new year, I do that

16     now.  So thank you, you are now released as a witness.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             MS. KORNER:  I know Your Honours are -- I am going -- to deliver

20     various rulings, but could I first thing tomorrow morning deal with what

21     is left over with --

22             JUDGE HALL:  Tomorrow afternoon.

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I've forgotten, tomorrow afternoon.  Tomorrow

24     afternoon, with what is left over about exhibiting documents from

25     Dr. Donia's testimony.  We didn't sort out about what has happened with

Page 5084

 1     some of the earlier ones.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  One of the upcoming rulings deals with this,

 3     Ms. Korner.  We now move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5085











11 Pages 5085-5086 redacted. Private session.















Page 5087

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.

 7                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of

 8                           January, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.