Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5162

 1                           Wednesday, 20 January 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 6     IT-08-91-T.  The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to all.

 8     May I have the appearances, please.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Matthew Olmsted and

10     Tom Hannis for the Prosecution assisted by Crispian Smith.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic and

12     Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank

13     you.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For Zupljanin

15     Defence, Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, and our Case Manager, Jason

16     Antley.  Sorry because I have some problems with computer.  It's okay

17     now.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE HALL:  I would remind the witness.  Good morning, sir, I

20     would remind you that you are still on your oath.  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           WITNESS:  MUHAREM KRZIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:  [Continued]

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, witness.  To save time, I already

Page 5163

 1     gave you your statement and the attachment you had before you yesterday.

 2     At several points during your evidence yesterday, you mentioned Crisis

 3     Staff; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The Crisis Staff for Banja Luka municipality was founded in 1991,

 6     wasn't it?

 7        A.   It was the staff, or rather, the national Defence council, if

 8     that's what you mean, which grew into the Crisis Staff.

 9        Q.   This body, the National Defence Council, as you call it, included

10     representatives of the SDA party, the HDZ, the SDP, reformists, and the

11     SDS, all the relevant political parties; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And your representative on that body was Mr. Emir Dzanic, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   That National Defence Council was established at that time in

16     keeping with the current law on the basics of All People's Defence and

17     social protection; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Would you please make a pause for the interpreter's between

20     question and answer.

21             That Council for National Defence, as you call it, which was

22     identical in all its features to the Crisis Staffs that appeared later,

23     continued to work in that composition all the way until the end of 1991

24     or the beginning of 1992.

25        A.   Yes, but I can't accept that it had the same jurisdiction as a

Page 5164

 1     Crisis Staff.

 2        Q.   A moment ago you said that this National Defence Council had

 3     grown at one point into a Crisis Staff?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   You withdrew from the National Defence Council, when I say you, I

 6     mean the SDA party, towards the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And then the SDA party founded its own Crisis Staff in March

10     1992?

11        A.   It had exclusively humanitarian --

12        Q.   Please answer my question.  Did the SDA party form its own Crisis

13     Staff in March 1992, yes or no?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And that staff was headed by Casim -- sorry, Asim Jakirlic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   At the same time the SDA party stopped working on the Assembly of

18     the municipality of Banja Luka; right?

19        A.   Even before March.

20        Q.   But this termination was not complete, one Emir Busatlic, a

21     member of your SDA party and MP continued to sit on the Banja Luka

22     municipal Assembly; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Also Mr. Gumic and Mr. Kuzmic SDA members, remained on the

25     Assembly?

Page 5165

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And this Mr. Gumic, although Bosniak by ethnicity, was Chef de

 3     Cabinet or secretary of the municipal secretary Radic?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   What was his position in the municipality?

 6        A.   I believe vice-president of the municipal Assembly.

 7        Q.   So he was the first assistant to the municipal president?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And he continued in his post from March onwards in 1992 although

10     the Party of Democratic Action walked out of the Municipal Assembly of

11     Banja Luka?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You gave them orders as to all your membership, I suppose, to

14     stop working on the municipal Assembly of Banja Luka, but they did not

15     obey?

16        A.   It wasn't me who gave them orders.  It was the Executive Board.

17     I signed them, but it was the Executive Board who issued the

18     instructions, not me personally.

19        Q.   When you say "Executive Board," you mean the Executive Board of

20     the party in Sarajevo?

21        A.   No, in Banja Luka.

22        Q.   In Banja Luka then.  But you as president of the SDA party and

23     president of the Executive Board signed this?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   With this Mr. Gumic who was vice-president of the Assembly of

Page 5166

 1     Banja Luka, you met several times in the course of 1992 at some official

 2     inter-party meetings or municipal meetings or meetings with Mr. Radic?

 3        A.   I believe that there were no such meetings between us within the

 4     party, and I can't recall that at the meetings we had with Mr. Radic he

 5     attended.  I'm talking about three meetings.  I can give you the dates,

 6     if you wish.

 7        Q.   Please.

 8        A.   Your Honours, may I look at my papers where I have these dates?

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had one meeting with Mr. Radic

11     on the 24th of June, the 8th of December, 1992, and the 1st of March,

12     1993 during my tenure in Banja Luka.  I believe that Mr. Gumic may have

13     attended the first meeting, but I'm sure he did not attend the other two.

14     However, in my reports you can find precise information because I wrote

15     these reports on the very same day and included the names of those

16     present.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  Until what time, to the best of your knowledge, did

19     Mr. Gumic continue as vice-president of the municipality of Banja Luka?

20        A.   Until the moment when he decided to leave Banja Luka himself, but

21     I really did not pay attention to that any more.  I simply wasn't able

22     to.

23        Q.   Tell me, he was a member of the SDA, obviously he was one of the

24     more prominent members since he was appointed vice-president of the

25     municipality of Banja Luka on behalf of the SDA party, and that's the

Page 5167

 1     second highest position in the municipal hierarchy.  He continued as an

 2     SDA member, didn't he?

 3        A.   If I may answer your first question first, he was nominated to

 4     that position while there was a sort of vacuum between the election of

 5     the SDA party president, to which post I was ultimately appointed

 6     officially by secret ballot, and the moment when the president left us.

 7     In the meanwhile, we had a temporary body leading the party and

 8     unfortunately it was precisely in this vacuum period that some key events

 9     happened, and in this vacuum, Mr. Gumic somehow jumped in.  I can't

10     understand to this day how because we had many good, educated people.

11             Second, we did not want to expel him from the SDA except in the

12     case of Mr. Busatlic.  We gathered signatures and had him excluded from

13     the municipality of Banja Luka.

14        Q.   Please, our time is limited.  I would really appreciate it if you

15     would focus on the question.  If I may sum up, and please answer with a

16     yes or no, Mr. Gumic, regardless of the circumstances of his election,

17     was elected vice-president of the Banja Luka municipality as a cadre and

18     representative of the SDA party?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Despite the decision of the SDA party not to participate in the

21     work of the Assembly and contrary to that decision, Mr. Gumic continued

22     as vice-president of the Banja Luka municipality throughout 1992 and

23     later and still remained a member of the SDA party?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You will agree with me that one can then legitimately claim that

Page 5168

 1     the SDA party participated in the authorities of Banja Luka?

 2        A.   I could not agree with that because I already told you which

 3     decision we had made and it was in force.

 4        Q.   Tell me, sir, you have been a member of the SDA party since it

 5     was founded?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was there a regional board of the party for the Bosnian Krajina?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you know people from the SDA party at the regional level?

10        A.   I knew most of them, I think.

11        Q.   Were you a member of the regional board?

12        A.   Ex officio I was.

13        Q.   Did you know the vice-president of the SDA for Kotor Varos,

14     Mr. Cerkic?

15        A.   Only very slightly.

16        Q.   He was also a member of the regional board, wasn't he?

17        A.   I believe he was.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, when in the coalition of national parties

19     the SDA, the SDS, and the HDZ you won elections in 1990 in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, isn't it true that you made an inter-party agreement

21     on the division of positions?

22        A.   Yes, but proportionately to our electoral results.

23        Q.   I did not ask you about the provisions of that inter-party

24     agreement.  I only want to know if there was one.  If there was an

25     agreement on the division of posts?

Page 5169

 1        A.   I have never seen that agreement, but one can say it existed.  In

 2     fact, to be even clearer, we referred to an inter-party agreement.

 3        Q.   Isn't it the case, Witness, that all three national parties in

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina together stated as their main goal to replace

 5     communists or members of the league of communists from all leading

 6     positions in all layers of society?

 7        A.   In the statute of our party, I never have seen such a statement.

 8     It's another matter that there were misgivings they might win elections,

 9     and I can say that at the beginning, none of the parties were preoccupied

10     with such issues.  We had many more serious matters to deal with.

11        Q.   Isn't it true, sir, that communists, or the League of Communists,

12     or the communist regime persecuted members of national parties?

13        A.   They persecuted certain nationalists because at that time there

14     were no national parties, or perhaps you mean the newly-elected national

15     parties.

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Well, some of them may have been targeting in that context.

18        Q.   Well, isn't it logical then, that the moment you got into power

19     by virtue of elections, it was the basic objective of all parties to

20     bring their own people into leading positions and replace the communists?

21        A.   As you know, I am not among these nationalists who were

22     persecuted and convicted sometimes, and in the party that I led, it was

23     not an objective, a goal.  But, of course, we wanted everything done

24     according to the outcome of the elections.

25        Q.   Isn't it true, however, that it was the purpose of this

Page 5170

 1     inter-party agreement on the division of posts, to replace the previous

 2     authorities and to place members of your respective parties to all the

 3     leading positions in society in keeping with the inter-party agreement?

 4        A.   As far as the SDA party is concerned, we nominated our candidates

 5     for leading positions from the ranks of people who did belong to

 6     political parties, but they also had quite separately certain superlative

 7     qualifications and I can give you names.

 8        Q.   I'm not interested in the local level, I'm interested in the

 9     level of the republic.  Give me one name of a senior official from the

10     SDA party who had been a communist and remained in his position at the

11     level of the republic.  Was there such a person in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   Well, take, for instance, Fikret Abdic.  I don't know if

13     Mr. Gumic was part of the previous regime, these were only Bosniaks but

14     look at Croats, Mr. Pejanovic was previously a communist and so on and so

15     forth.  If you look at the ambassadors, and that's also a very high

16     position, a great percentage of them used to be communists.

17        Q.   I'm talking about the executive arm?

18        A.   In that respect as well, many people on the Supreme Court.

19        Q.   You talked yesterday about non-Serbs being laid off, and you

20     emphasised physicians; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   P462 was shown to you yesterday.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we call it up again, please.

24     I'm interested in Article 1.

25        Q.   You remember giving your comments on this document from June

Page 5171

 1     1992?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   Yesterday you commented on Article 1, paragraphs 1 and 2, and you

 4     said that the document referred to non-Serbs, do you remember that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   However, paragraph 3 of this same Article 1 applies to employees

 7     of Serbian ethnicity, do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Article 3 says that these positions enumerated earlier may not be

10     filled by non-Serbs but may not be filled by Serbs either who had not

11     proven their ideological profile and suitability, do you see that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This is basically about banning opponents from certain political

14     positions?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Isn't it the same principle that was applied according to your

17     inter-party agreement from 1990 against former communists who had not

18     given up their former ideology?

19        A.   No, it's not the same because there is not a single document or

20     verbal evidence that the SDA party acted in this way.

21        Q.   Sir, just a moment, just a moment.  I'm asking you in general

22     terms.  I'm not asking about the SDA party nor am I trying to criticise

23     the SDA.  Nothing could be further from my mind.  I'm talking about all

24     nationalist party or national parties, the SDA, the SDS, the HDZ, and

25     your own inter-party agreement.  It stipulated, if you will agree with

Page 5172

 1     me, that certain standards be applied to the members of the former

 2     authorities, namely that they should be replaced?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Wait a moment.  If members of the former authorities remained in

 5     that position, then how were you able to place your people in the same

 6     positions?  Were there two presidents of the municipality?

 7        A.   No, I'm trying to say that as far as the SDA and the HDZ are

 8     concerned, to the best of my knowledge, new leading staff, new leading

 9     structures were being formed out of people who had certain qualifications

10     and who expressed their loyalty to the SDA.  They did not have to be

11     members.  And we appointed such people to the municipality of Banja Luka,

12     I can give you names.  Mr. Kosulcic [phoen] was a member of the League of

13     Communists, and he was appointed to a municipal position.

14        Q.   Isn't it true that the SDA was not very popular with

15     intellectuals of the Islamic faith or Muslim Bosniaks?

16        A.   Judging by who was in the leading positions in our party and our

17     council, I don't think that conclusion is justified.  Intellectuals,

18     generally speaking, did not join the newly established political parties

19     in great numbers which is understandable, but I can give you the names of

20     a dozen professors, I believe that's enough.

21        Q.   But for a nation-wide party, it's hardly enough, but I don't want

22     to go into that now.  I'll ask you another question, sir.  Isn't it true

23     that the SDP, the Social Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina was a

24     predominantly Muslim or Bosniak party?

25        A.   Do you mean the SDP that ran in the democratic elections?

Page 5173

 1        Q.   Yes, the very one.

 2        A.   I don't have relevant information.  They have that information in

 3     the SDP, but speaking about Banja Luka, yes, that conclusion can be

 4     drawn.

 5        Q.   When we spoke about that a minute ago, namely that one of your

 6     members was on the Municipal Board of Banja Luka, didn't the members of

 7     the SDP, mostly Muslims, remain in their positions in the municipal

 8     Assembly of Banja Luka and took part in its activities?

 9        A.   I'm sorry, can you reformulate that question a bit.

10        Q.   Well, okay.  Although I'm trying to keep things short.

11             Is it true that the Social Democratic Party in the Banja Luka

12     municipality in the municipal Assembly which was predominantly Muslim

13     took part in the activities of the municipal Assembly during 1992, yes or

14     no?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go back to this document.  Yesterday you

17     commented and read an interview with Mr. Brdjanin about a certain

18     Slobodan Cvijetic who was replaced from the position of manager, or

19     director, even though he was a Serb, do you remember?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You said yesterday that he was replaced because that -- because

22     persons from mixed marriages were also replaced; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Isn't it true that Mr. Cvijetic's mother and father are of Serb

25     ethnicity, that he is not the offspring of a mixed marriage?

Page 5174

 1        A.   But his wife is a Croatian woman.

 2        Q.   Yes, but his wife being a Croatian woman doesn't mean that he

 3     comes from a mixed marriage?

 4        A.   No, well that may have been -- I may have misspoken.  I want to

 5     say that there was a mixed marriage.

 6        Q.   Sir, my question was the following:  You don't want to say that

 7     the reason for his replacement was the fact that his wife was a Croatian

 8     woman?

 9        A.   It was one of the reasons.  It can be seen in the interview.

10        Q.   Witness, isn't it true that this gentleman, although if I may say

11     that a thoroughbred Serb was replaced for ideological reasons and not

12     because his wife was a Croatian woman or for any other reason?

13        A.   I think that Mr. Brdjanin provides the answer to that question in

14     that interview.  I believe that answer should be recognised.

15        Q.   Sir, we are not examining Mr. Brdjanin here, we are examining

16     you.  You gave us your comments to Mr. Brdjanin's interview yesterday, we

17     have that document.  Here is what I put to you now.  That Mr. Slobodan

18     Cvijetic the director of a successful company in Banja Luka although he

19     was a Serb was replaced for purely ideological reasons, he was an

20     ideological opponent and not for on ethnic grounds.  Do you agree with

21     me, yes or no?

22        A.   I can agree only partly, because if his wife had been a Serbian

23     woman that would never have happened because he was a recognised expert.

24        Q.   Are you saying that if he had divorced his wife he would have

25     remained in a managerial position?

Page 5175

 1        A.   No, I didn't say that, or I couldn't claim that.

 2        Q.   Yes, but you have just said if his wife were a Serbian woman,

 3     obviously you are focusing on the fact that his wife is a Croatian woman?

 4        A.   Well, I heard from his family that this was so.

 5        Q.   Yeah, but people will talk, won't they?

 6             When you spoke to my learned friend yesterday, you were shown a

 7     newspaper article about a group of doctors, specialists from Banja Luka

 8     losing their jobs, they were Muslims, Bosniaks, and in September 1992

 9     they were laid off.  Do you remember?

10        A.   I believe so.

11        Q.   If I read your statement correctly, which we have in front of us,

12     you went into details explaining that but do say, if you don't remember

13     everything, you mentioned four or five names of esteemed doctors,

14     specialists who were Muslims or Bosniaks who in December 1992 were laid

15     off because they didn't respond to the summons to go to a military

16     hospital near the front line?

17        A.   Yes, that applies to some of them.

18        Q.   On page 13 of your statement, you mention that the mobilisation

19     or the obligation to serve in the military applied to all three ethnic

20     groups, Muslims, Croats and Serbs equally, and that those who acted in

21     accordance with that order were sent wherever necessary and those who

22     didn't were -- to those who didn't sanctions were applied?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you remember that the laws and regulations existing in

25     Yugoslavia in all republics, the duty to serve in the military was seen

Page 5176

 1     as a highest duty of any individual?

 2        A.   I must correct you.  This was within the remit of the highest

 3     bodies of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina which never issued such a

 4     call for mobilisation.  It was local authorities that did.

 5        Q.   Sir, we are speaking about December 1992?

 6        A.   Yes, but Bosnia and Herzegovina existed as a country then, and we

 7     were obliged to obey the institutions of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 8     and not the institutions of individual municipalities where there had

 9     been a user patient of power or the authorities of some regions.

10        Q.   Sir, are you saying that you don't know that the Republika Srpska

11     had been created in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12        A.   You know that Bosnia-Herzegovina was internationally recognised.

13        Q.   Sir, we are speaking about facts.  It is not for us to interpret

14     them.  That's for the Chamber to do later.  We are speaking about the

15     facts now.  I'm asking you now, since this is about December 1992, you

16     know that the Republika Srpska was in existence, I believe at one moment

17     it was called the Republika Srpska Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that there was

18     a mobilisation order in the Republika Srpska and you lived in the

19     territory of the then Republika Srpska and of present day Republika

20     Srpska; isn't that so?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So that the mobilisation order which was in force in the

23     territory of Republika Srpska applied to all citizens of Republika Srpska

24     irrespective of their ethnicity at the time; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5177

 1        Q.   You certainly know that there have been numerous instances when

 2     members of the Serbian ethnic group were laid off and they were taken to

 3     court for refusing to respond to the mobilisation call?

 4        A.   I personally do not have such information, but I have heard of

 5     such cases.

 6        Q.   Let us comment what you said yesterday.  What you -- or rather,

 7     let's go to page 53, line 6 and 7.  There you commented -- no, you can't

 8     find it in your statement, I'm referring to the evidence you gave

 9     yesterday.  The reference was to the transcript.  It's page 53 of

10     yesterday's transcript of your testimony, line 6 and 7.  When you

11     commented your meeting with Mr. Radic on the 15th of April 1992, do you

12     remember that meeting?

13        A.   Which date did you say?

14        Q.   April 15th, 1992.  You were reading a newspaper article about

15     that meeting.

16        A.   Oh, yes, that's the one I don't have listed here.  What was your

17     question again?  I apologise again.

18        Q.   Do you remember that you gave evidence to the effect that the

19     article from "Glas" was shown to you which dealt with your meeting with

20     Mr. Radic?

21        A.   Yes, I'm sorry, I got a bit confused.

22        Q.   So I would like to ask you once more to pause briefly between my

23     question and your answer for the sake of the interpreters.

24             When you spoke about that yesterday you said that you expressed

25     your concern and then my learned friend asked you whether you went there

Page 5178

 1     again, and you replied, Whoever complained risked losing their life, do

 2     you remember saying that?

 3        A.   I believe that was the Prosecutor's question about complaints to

 4     the members of the CSB, and that is what my reply referred to.  But

 5     whoever complained to other institutions too also ran that same risk, so

 6     that my answer is affirmative.

 7        Q.   Well, sir, you said to us a short while ago you went to see

 8     Mr. Radic three more times, 24th of June, the 8th of December, and the

 9     1st of March 1993, and you also had two meetings with General Talic and

10     other military leaders about these same issues.  That's not a contentious

11     issue.  And we can see that nothing happened to you; is that correct?

12        A.   That is correct, but we were speaking about individual

13     complaints, so if somebody attacks you in your house and if you complain

14     individually, you risked something bad happening to you.  We were the

15     representatives of associations of non-Serbs and in that capacity we were

16     able to have meetings.  But individual complaints were practically

17     impossible.

18        Q.   I know, sir, but you too are an individual, an individual with

19     property, so that you would have been in the same position as other

20     non-Serbs?

21        A.   Well, yes, I was in the same position.  I believe that you have

22     the information that I went through awful torture, that I lost my

23     property, that those who accompanied me were also imprisoned and so on,

24     so half the people who went to those meetings with me were imprisoned.  I

25     think give you their names if you want.  Or they were expelled.

Page 5179

 1        Q.   Sir, a military court in Banja Luka convicted you and those

 2     others to long-term prison sentences for espionage.  I am not referring

 3     to what happened when that group was arrested in 1994, I'm speaking about

 4     the period relevant for this case and that is 1992.  About this other

 5     aspect you will probably speak with my colleague.  I'm interested in

 6     1992.  As far as I was able to conclude from your statements in 1992, you

 7     personally didn't have any major problems, or did you?

 8        A.   If we disregard the fact that my house was being shot at, then

 9     you're right.

10        Q.   Well, sir, it was war, but so there was shooting in Banja Luka

11     elsewhere, not only at your house?

12        A.   Yes, there was shooting, but it's different when someone comes to

13     your house and shoots at you, points a gun at your head.

14        Q.   You spoke about Kotor Varos yesterday and what was happening

15     there on pages -- on page 58 of yesterday's transcript line 20 up to page

16     59 line 3.  You mentioned people being slaughtered, whipped, tied to

17     trees, et cetera.  Were you in Kotor Varos when those things allegedly

18     happened?

19        A.   No, not at that time, but I spoke to some people while

20     Mr. Zdravko Pejic was with me.  And in spite of the terrible situation

21     they confirmed that.  I later spoke to witnesses from Vecici and to the

22     parents of the victims, and they all confirmed that beyond any doubt.  I

23     also spoke to the HDZ president, what was his name again?  Maric.  And he

24     also confirmed that.

25        Q.   So let me conclude, you didn't have any direct knowledge but you

Page 5180

 1     got information through intermediaries, by word of mouth?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, in your statements and in your evidence you

 4     insist that the SDA of Banja Luka, that is the party which you led,

 5     didn't have any weapons in 1992 and that in February you did ask the SDA

 6     to supply weapons, but they never arrived; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You also said that in Zagreb too, somebody was telling you about

 9     delivering weapons in the territory of Banja Luka and that you asked that

10     person for weapons too; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And then you were at a meeting at which there was a discussion

13     about weapons that you were to receive from the HVOV Jajce which already

14     had delivered some weapons but you never received any weapons; is that

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, but I believe that Travnik was also mentioned.

17        Q.   When you say "Travnik," you mean the HVO of Travnik?

18        A.   Yes, more or less.

19        Q.   You did confirm that you brought automatic rifles from Sarajevo

20     for you and another member of the SDA; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And that -- one of these automatic rifles you kept to yourself;

23     is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I'm sure that you knew that unauthorised possession of weapons

Page 5181

 1     was a crime, especially automatic weapons?

 2        A.   Well, yes.

 3        Q.   And that is why you discarded that weapon in the Vrbas River when

 4     you heard that the police would come to search your house?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Witness, isn't it true that the actions of collecting illegal

 7     weapons who were implemented from 1990 in line with the decision of the

 8     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina headed by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and on

 9     the basis of the order of the minister of the interior Mr. Delimustafic,

10     they are all Muslim Bosniaks?

11        A.   I cannot say because I don't have the necessary information.

12        Q.   Isn't it true that there were check-points at all major access

13     roads to towns and that those check-points were in existence in -- or

14     rather throughout former Yugoslavia at that time in 1990?

15        A.   I never saw those check-points in person at the time when travel

16     was still possible.  Even when in 1992 I went to Zagreb which we

17     mentioned yesterday, I heard of the existence of check-points on the road

18     to Gradiska, so I went by way of Samac, but I never saw any check-points

19     myself, so I cannot confirm that from my personal experience.

20     Furthermore, when I was in Sarajevo in 1992, which I mentioned in March,

21     I never saw those check-points.  I went from the railroad station to my

22     apartment freely and I never saw a check-point.  That's really the truth.

23     I cannot confirm that.  I don't know the situation in other areas.  As

24     far as I know, I can say that probably there were such check-points.

25        Q.   Are you trying to say that there was no check-point on the access

Page 5182

 1     road to the city of Zagreb in 1990 or 1991 where they asked you for ID,

 2     asked you whether you had weapons, searched your car?

 3        A.   No, nobody asked me anything.  I went by way of Samac and I had

 4     no such experience.

 5        Q.   But you knew of a check-point on the road to Gradiska and that's

 6     why you chose a different road?

 7        A.   But when I went to see my son in Slavonski Brod in 1991, I went

 8     to Slavonski Brod, I don't remember the exact date, on the motorway there

 9     was some sort of a check-point manned by soldiers, and I stopped there

10     and described that in my book.  But I stopped there because I wanted to

11     of my own accord.  Because I saw armed people in the field threatening

12     us, and I stopped to inquire what that was about.  We were naive to the

13     extent we had no idea what was going on, which is corroborated by the

14     fact that we were travelling with a child in our car.

15        Q.   It's not in dispute and you certainly know that at that time

16     there was a huge amount of illegal weapons around -- supplied from all

17     sides and smuggled and purchased, changing hands?

18        A.   Yes, I read about that.

19        Q.   In your book and in your witness statement on page 22, you stated

20     that the leader of the SDA party from Prijedor towards the end of 1991

21     told you that they had over 2.000 rifles in Prijedor and one small gun,

22     cannon; do you remember that statement?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   If I understand that correctly, that means that in Prijedor in

25     1991 there were over 2.000 armed fighting men among Bosniak Muslims?

Page 5183

 1        A.   But I didn't mention another thing, namely that they said it was

 2     exaggerated, flamboyance.

 3        Q.   Isn't it the case that the meeting held in Zenica with the

 4     Patriotic League where all the regions participated and that was towards

 5     the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, isn't it the case that the

 6     Military Council of the Patriotic League was surprised by the quantity of

 7     weapons that Bosniaks, Muslims, possessed in the Bosnian Krajina?

 8        A.   I heard about this from a man, not from the council.  It's all

 9     relative, therefore --

10        Q.   Just a moment.  About this you say everything is relative,

11     whereas yesterday and today you keep telling us that some things were

12     agreed or happening in the territory of a certain other municipality and

13     you only heard about it, but it's true, whereas this other piece of

14     information, you also heard it from someone is relative?

15        A.   No, no, I'm not saying that.  I'm just saying that someone told

16     me about it.

17        Q.   Isn't it true that in your book you stated that this Military

18     Council of the Patriotic League estimated the Krajina to be in a much

19     better position than other areas to organise armed resistance and

20     conflict?

21        A.   Again, I heard from that person, but it was not an official

22     meeting, it was a chat over coffee.

23        Q.   Well, sir, you are the one who put that information into your

24     book.  If you did not believe it to be true, you probably wouldn't write

25     it.

Page 5184

 1        A.   I wrote many things in the book to link up various events.  That

 2     doesn't mean that I stand behind everything written there.  A chat over a

 3     cup of coffee is one thing.  A document is quite another.

 4        Q.   Well, does that also apply then to your witness statement because

 5     you said the same thing in your witness statement and whatever is not

 6     documented is not completely reliable.  Is that what you are trying to

 7     say?

 8        A.   Well, maybe this person was telling me this tendentiously because

 9     we did not have a particular relationship of trust.  Other information

10     that I got, I often verified and these were people who were either linked

11     to me through the SDA or we had some sort of privatise or they were

12     friends of my associates.

13        Q.   But you did not check this information, I suppose, because you

14     knew that the commander of the Patriotic League, Mr. Sefer Halilovic in

15     the autumn of 1991 came to Banja Luka to see how the organisation of the

16     Patriotic League was coming along and you saw him?

17        A.   That's an excellent question.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Olmsted has an intervention.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour, just a moment ago Defence

20     counsel stated that this witness had made the same statement about the

21     Patriotic League in one of his statements.  I was hoping that Defence

22     counsel could refer us to where in the statement that is just so we can

23     confirm it.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  The witness talks about this very piece of his

25     book, or the reference to his book is on page 23 of his statement of

Page 5185

 1     2000, 2001.  I will give you the paragraph, it's penultimate paragraph

 2     and it's in Serbian version.  I'm sorry, I have a Serbian or B/C/S

 3     statement.  It says on page 18:

 4             "I was talking about the meeting that was held in Zenica on which

 5     all regions participated so the data on arms can be compared.  On that

 6     particular meeting, the Military Council of Patriotic League was

 7     astonished by the data because they were surprised by the numbers and

 8     they estimated that the Bosnian Krajina was in far better position than

 9     other regions for organising the rebellion" -- and well, it doesn't say

10     rebellion, it's, I'm sorry, I'm not very good with the translations.

11     Yes.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  We found the reference, and we would object to the

13     question because the statement continues exactly as the witness says

14     that:

15             "I did not attend this meeting.  I learned about it from an

16     individual who is dead now, I have to warn that the above comments should

17     be taken cautiously."  So I don't think there was an inconsistent

18     testimony here today about that.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that it was

20     inconsistent testimony, I just said that he wrote that in his book and

21     confirmed it in his statement, the very same thing in -- what he wrote in

22     his book, and the witness gave a comment.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Prosecution maintains its objection, because again

24     he doesn't in a sense confirm it, he actually say it is should be taken

25     cautiously, but nothing further.

Page 5186

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Perhaps, Mr. Olmsted, this is a matter for you to

 2     which you can return in re-examination.  I'm not sure it's a basis for an

 3     objection to the question.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Witness, yesterday when you were talking about the arming of

 6     Serbs you said that the military armed them; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   It was, in fact, about issuing arms to reservists and members of

 9     the Territorial Defence; isn't that correct?

10        A.   I suppose so.

11        Q.   Well, if the military is arming its own reservists in the

12     Territorial Defence then by the nature of things it should be in keeping

13     with the law and strict records would be kept as to who was issued with

14     weapons?

15        A.   Yes, but only Serbs got them.

16        Q.   That's because Bosniaks, Muslims, on the instructions of your

17     party refused to report to military reserve units and mobilisation

18     call-ups?

19        A.   I would have to finish my answer to the previous question,

20     referring to Sefer Halilovic.  Well, please allow me to finish.

21        Q.   Sir, my learned friend from the Prosecution will have a chance

22     after I finish to conduct additional examination, and he will take up all

23     the facts that he believes need clarification.  Now, in my turn I'm

24     asking you, isn't it true that Bosniaks would not respond to mobilisation

25     call-ups although it was illegal to refuse?

Page 5187

 1        A.   Bosniaks received public instructions through the press by the

 2     SDA not to respond to mobilisation.

 3        Q.   Of course not everyone obeyed this proclamation of the SDA and

 4     those Bosniaks, Muslims who did respond to the call-up, received weapons?

 5        A.   I suppose so.

 6        Q.   So this issue of weapons again had nothing to do with ethnicity,

 7     the only criterion was whether the person responded to the call-up as was

 8     his legal obligation or not?

 9        A.   Mobilisation is one thing, distributing weapons door to door is

10     quite a different thing.  That was called receiving weapons, not issuing

11     weapons.  When weapons are issued, you are in uniform and you sign a

12     receipt.  This was distribution of weapons to civilians of only one

13     ethnicity.

14        Q.   We discussed this a moment ago, sir, and we agreed that the army

15     was arming it's reservists and members of the Territorial Defence and you

16     agreed that was legal, that records were kept, and that it was in

17     conformity with the law?

18        A.   Just one thing --

19        Q.   And then you said that it was problematic because only Serbs were

20     involved and then we agreed that Bosniaks, if they had responded to the

21     mobilisation call-up, would have received weapons as well, isn't that

22     true?

23        A.   Yes, as far as mobilisation is concerned.

24        Q.   Sir, the fact that somebody receives a weapon while not wearing a

25     uniform at that very moment does not mean he is not receiving -- that he

Page 5188

 1     is not a reservist.  He signs a receipt that he is receiving a weapon

 2     from supplies, but he is a member of the Territorial Defence or the

 3     reserve?

 4        A.   I was in the Territorial Defence, and we never received any

 5     weapons unless we had been mobilised first and wearing a uniform.

 6        Q.   You are talking about peacetime?

 7        A.   I'm talking about a time before this.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, sir, I have no further

 9     questions for you.  [In English] I'm finished with this witness.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

11             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Krzic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   I am lawyer Pantelic appearing here for Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.

16             Mr. Krzic, you are a tolerant man, aren't you?

17        A.   Thank you.

18        Q.   Because you were a diplomat and a politician in the past, you are

19     a person of moderate views who is always trying to find a solution

20     through dialogue?

21        A.   I can only thank you for that opinion.

22        Q.   You stated in one of your witness statements that your family was

23     in the partisans in the Second World War?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could you tell us a few details about the members of your family

Page 5189

 1     who fought in the Second World War?

 2        A.   Four of my paternal uncles were members of the partisan movement,

 3     some of them from the very start from 1941 through the end of 1942, and

 4     my father worked as an illegal for the partisan movement in Banja Luka.

 5        Q.   And your family has lived in Banja Luka for several generations,

 6     you are an old urban family?

 7        A.   On the paternal side, yes.  On the maternal side we are not from

 8     Banja Luka.

 9        Q.   And for several generations you have been a prominent family?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I suppose that from your childhood you have been of Muslim faith?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And when you became a member of the League of Communists in 1970,

14     the times were like that, it was necessary to get along in service,

15     et cetera.  Why was your mother unhappy?

16        A.   Just a minor correction that matters to me a great deal however,

17     they came to ask me to join the party after my volunteer work to help the

18     population stricken by the earthquake.  My mother was disappointed

19     probably because the entire family, including my aunts on both sides,

20     were members of the communist movement and she was intimately against

21     that.

22        Q.   This is not a very important issue, I can tell you straightaway,

23     but I infer from this that your mother was not really a communist

24     sympathiser?

25        A.   She was a believer, a religious woman.  I cannot really make

Page 5190

 1     these differences.  Religion was respected in my home but it was

 2     concealed.  In those times, the communist times, it didn't do to display

 3     any religious feelings openly.  But there was absolute respect between

 4     both sides of the family, those who believed and those who didn't.

 5        Q.   I quite understand.  As a man who lived through some good times

 6     because we have to admit, in those times, the times of Tito there were a

 7     lot of good things, would you agree that in Bosnia and Herzegovina a

 8     balance was always sought between the interests of the three constituent

 9     peoples?

10        A.   Certainly.

11        Q.   As for the expression, the freedom of expression and democratic

12     freedoms and other aspects of democratic society, it was not quite so

13     liberal.  It was sort of held tightly with an iron hand?

14        A.   Yes, the approach was restrictive.

15        Q.   However, the national principle was observed in politics, the

16     principle of national parity in proportion, in big companies as well,

17     would you agree?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   As far as I know, and you will correct me if I'm wrong, in those

20     times one couldn't say that any of the ethnic communities were really

21     oppressed or threatened or pushed out by the majority of other

22     communities?

23        A.   For the main part, yes, although statistics from that period seem

24     to show that in the army and on the police force this principle was

25     really disrupted.

Page 5191

 1        Q.   At the expense of Muslims?

 2        A.   I would say at the expense of non-Serbs.  I don't have the

 3     statistics before me, but --

 4        Q.   Of course, that is your impression.  Let's not go into any

 5     detail, however --

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, we are coming up on the break.  It's

 7     time for the break.

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  Sorry, it was my impression it was 10.30.  So

 9     thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, before the witness is brought in to

13     court, I would like the record to show that Mr. Cvijetic has joined us

14     now.  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  While the witness is being brought back

16     to the stand, the Chamber noting that the present schedule anticipates

17     that the witness who is to follow the witness now on the stand, his

18     testimony would be completed tomorrow, and the Prosecution is unable to

19     present a witness for Friday, that Friday's slot would be most usefully

20     spent dealing with a number of procedural matters which both parties

21     have, and therefore, the Court -- the Chamber intends to sit on Friday to

22     deal with these matters and accordingly requests counsel from both sides

23     to have a list of those issues by the close of today's work so that we

24     would know the issues with which we would be concerned come Friday

25     morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

Page 5192

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krzic, we are about to continue the

 4     cross-examination.  Even after the multi-party elections in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the principle of equality of peoples in

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is the protection of their vital interests was

 7     honoured; right?

 8        A.   There were indeed indications to the effect that the previous

 9     practice would be continued.

10        Q.   And a coalition agreement was struck between the HDZ, SDA and the

11     SDS to establish government structures jointly from the highest to the

12     lowest level; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, I would like to deal with some very brief issues from the

15     surroundings of Banja Luka, I mean the historical context, but it is

16     clearly linked to this situation.

17             It is a generally known fact that in Croatia during World War II

18     on the border with Bosnia, there was Jasenovac, a notorious concentration

19     camp where several hundred thousand Serbs and numbers of other

20     ethnicities were killed; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   It is also a known fact that in the surroundings of Banja Luka in

23     the hamlet of Drakulici in February 1942 about 2.300 Serbs were killed;

24     is that correct?

25        A.   I cannot confirm numbers generally speaking, but I know of this

Page 5193

 1     massacre so I can confirm that it took place, but I must also add that

 2     the monument which was erected there during communism mentions the number

 3     of 220 people, so I cannot confirm the figure you stated.

 4        Q.   Let us not go into these details, but what matters to me is that

 5     you are familiar with that event and the surroundings of Banja Luka

 6     during World War II.  Now we are dealing with quite different things.

 7     You will also agree that in that period of suffering in the Second World

 8     War in the Bosnian Krajina a significant number of Serbs fell victims

 9     such as in Sanski Most, Bihac, other places around Banja Luka, et cetera.

10     These are historical facts.  Do you agree with me?

11        A.   Sir, I hold you in high esteem, but you are asking questions to

12     which the answer cannot be ambiguous, but this being a specific

13     situation, I would ask you to take into consideration the victims of

14     other ethnicities at the same time and the same places.  I don't want the

15     Chamber to get the impression that crimes were committed only against

16     Serbs.

17        Q.   Of course you are entitled to your opinion, I don't want to

18     question that, but I want to ask you whether you know that after the

19     conflict in Croatia broke out in 1991, several tens of thousand Serbs,

20     around 50.000 at that time, fled Croatia and came to Banja Luka in 1991.

21     Did you witness that process?

22        A.   That was a process which took some time, it didn't happen at

23     once, but the figures that we spoke about at that time were up to 5.000

24     people.

25        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Krzic, do you personally distinguish citizens and

Page 5194

 1     the population of a town from inhabitants of rural areas, that is village

 2     folk?  Are these all people of the same level?

 3        A.   I am a person who has the same approach toward everybody, but I

 4     must also say that I am aware of the huge differences that exist between

 5     rural populace generally speaking of which I was reminded recently, and

 6     townsfolk who are custom to co-existence in the same era.

 7        Q.   So it is your position, if I understand you correctly, that there

 8     are traditional cultural sociological and other differences between urban

 9     populations and rural populations?

10        A.   Yes, significant differences.

11        Q.   You will probably also agree with me when I say that when village

12     folk come to town and rise to some positions of authority, they also

13     jeopardize the positions of townsfolk?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   During the war in propaganda and in political speeches, you will

16     probably agree with me there was much exaggeration on all three sides,

17     Muslim, Croat, and Serbian; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And each side at some moments and in line with their intentions

20     used some derogatory expressions for the others; non-Serbs would call

21     Serbs Chetniks; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And then Muslims were called Turks or balija; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And Croats were called Ustashas?

Page 5195

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   That was a part of public speech and the ways of that time;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Well, speaking about Banja Luka, I will say, yes, that is

 5     correct.

 6        Q.   You as an educated and tolerant man would not use, or did you at

 7     that time, use the derogatory term of Chetnik to refer to a Serb?

 8        A.   In a private conversation, yes, but never in public.  But I must

 9     immediately add that I would use the term Chetnik only to refer to

10     killers, people killing others or people who would themselves -- who

11     would present themselves as Chetniks, but not otherwise.

12        Q.   But let us return to your book witnessing crime and your love

13     toward Bosnia, you use the term Chetnik or the Serbian Chetnik aggression

14     and the like almost on every page; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, and I believe that is compatible with what you and I both

16     said earlier.

17        Q.   That is to say apart from privately, you also publicly

18     categorised the Serbs in this manner in your book?

19        A.   No, not as a generally as that because there were also Serbs who

20     couldn't bear all that and who behaved humanely, very humanely.  I also

21     stressed that among other information that we received, there was also

22     the term Croatian cadre, although they were not only Serbian, they were

23     also Croatian.

24        Q.   Apart from being an intellectual and a diplomat, you are also a

25     writer, so I suppose that in that literary jargon sometimes exaggerations

Page 5196

 1     are made; is that correct?

 2        A.   Certainly.

 3        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Krzic, have you read the Islamic declaration whose

 4     author is the former president of the SDA, Alija Izetbegovic?

 5        A.   I read it once, maybe twice.  I don't have it.  I was looking for

 6     it because I wanted to remind myself what it says, but I couldn't find

 7     it.

 8        Q.   We won't go into details, but as far as you remember, your

 9     attitude toward that is positive.  You have no objections to what

10     Mr. Izetbegovic wrote there?

11        A.   Well, my opinion is that writing that should not be a crime.

12        Q.   But I'm referring to the views put forward in the Islamic

13     declaration, you share those views?

14        A.   I remember very poorly, but there were some very general views

15     put forward there that go beyond Bosnia and being a practical man to me

16     that declaration had no practical value whatsoever for Bosnia-Herzegovina

17     or for the Bosniak people at the time.  I take that to be more of a

18     philosophical work.

19        Q.   Well, sometimes philosophical works have serious value.  One of

20     the views put forward there is that there is no co-existence between

21     Islam and other religions, do you agree with that?

22        A.   Well, if it exists, I disagree with that.  I never agreed with

23     that.  You can't find anything of the kind in my biography.

24        Q.   Do you agree with the part of that book that deals with the

25     uppermost duty of a Muslim to build a Muslim state, create Muslim

Page 5197

 1     institutions, and be a majority there?

 2        A.   Well, you are asking me about the declaration.  Why don't you

 3     simply put something to me and ask me whether I agree with that?  Because

 4     I only took a superficial look at that declaration.  I had many more

 5     important things to deal with, such as the book "Islam Between the West

 6     and the East."

 7        Q.   But do you agree with that view?

 8        A.   No, I absolutely disagree.

 9        Q.   When the SDA was established, I understand the word "action" from

10     its name as something stemming from the Islamic declaration, which means

11     that Muslims must fight continuously to reach some positions.  This

12     action presupposes offensive, doesn't it?

13        A.   But I must -- before answering, I must add something.  The author

14     of that name was the well-known musician Safet Isovic who was a leftist,

15     possibly not really a communist, but anyway, action can be interpreted as

16     work.  As a young man I took part in labour actions, that's what they

17     were called at the time, actions.  That's part of a jargon, a socialist

18     jargon.

19        Q.   Well, tell me then, Mr. Krzic, now that we are speaking about

20     this, did the programme of the SDA include the ideas of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina being a secular state without very strong ties with

22     religious institutions?

23        A.   Well, I don't want to go ever into the phrasing of your question,

24     but yes, I believe that was so and on general terms that there should be

25     no official ties between the state and the religion, so, yes, religion

Page 5198

 1     was respected but certainly Bosnia-Herzegovina was not to be a religious

 2     state.

 3        Q.   But let me ask you another thing.  What does Mahsuz Sellam mean,

 4     the greeting?

 5        A.   Sellam means greeting, and Mahsuz means special greeting.

 6        Q.   For the sake of the transcript, let me spell that correctly.  [In

 7     English] Expression of M-a-h-s-u-z then another word, S-e-l-l-a-m.

 8     [Interpretation] Now, were there any Serbs in the SDA?

 9        A.   Yes, initially.

10        Q.   Are you speaking about Banja Luka?

11        A.   Yes, Banja Luka.

12        Q.   I noticed in several letters you wrote that in the communication

13     between you as the president of the SDA of Banja Luka and headquarters

14     and also in the communication between you as a man who collected

15     information and who was at the BiH mission in New York that you often

16     finish your letters with the greeting Mahsuz Sellam; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   As opposed, but it's really just an assumption, correct me if I'm

19     wrong, that the members of the SDA who are of Serbian or Croatian origin,

20     that is Christians, wouldn't feel comfortable when confronted with this

21     basically religious greeting; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in the BiH mission, which should have had staff from all

24     three ethnicities, isn't it quite unusual to use a religious greeting in

25     diplomacy?

Page 5199

 1        A.   I wasn't a diplomat at the time, I was the leader of a, well,

 2     provincial party, I can say at the time.  That greeting was used as a

 3     sign not of difference, but more of an expression of protest.  Nowadays,

 4     that phrase is mostly used in private letters, not only today, it's been

 5     like that for awhile.  In Sarajevo at least, I can see that the greeting

 6     Ciao is used widely.  That's an Italian greeting.  It's probably been

 7     chosen so as not to make that difference.

 8        Q.   Now that you've mentioned Sarajevo and bearing in mind that you

 9     have a house in Banja Luka, which is your property, do you also own an

10     apartment in Sarajevo?

11        A.   Yes, I do have property in Sarajevo.

12        Q.   You got an apartment from the government institutions; right?

13        A.   I bought the apartment when it was privatised, and I sold a house

14     in Banja Luka.

15        Q.   To who did that apartment in Sarajevo belong before you bought

16     it?

17        A.   I wouldn't like provide an answer to that question, you can do

18     so, but if necessary, I will.

19        Q.   Go ahead.

20        A.   It was the second apartment of a person and as they had two

21     apartments, one of them had to be vacated.

22        Q.   Was that person of Serbian ethnicity?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I paused because of the transcript.  Mr. Krzic, you are a smart

25     man, an intellectual.  I'm sure you will agree with me when I say that

Page 5200

 1     these unfortunate events in the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina had as a

 2     consequence massive migrations so that nowadays a negligible percentage

 3     of Serbs lives in Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Well, if we compare it to the previous number, I certainly

 5     suppose that the number is significantly smaller, although I don't have

 6     any exact figures.

 7        Q.   Likewise there are hardly any Serbs in Sanski Most; correct?

 8        A.   I can only assume that's the case.

 9        Q.   Well, generally speaking there have been movements of

10     population --

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We have been far around during the first stage of

12     your cross-examination.  I'm bewildered as it to where we are going, so I

13     think you should tighten up and get to the point.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I take your instructions, of

15     course.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] But let us finish this.  We will agree that

17     rather a large or huge number of Serbs came to the Republika Srpska?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you acknowledge the reality that the Republika Srpska is in

20     existence and that it's a constituent entity of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And that the bodies -- the authority of the bodies of the

23     Republika Srpska is also defined by this international agreement;

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5201

 1        Q.   You will certainly agree with me when I say that during the war

 2     between 1992 and 1995 a large number of camps was to be found in

 3     territories controlled by Muslim forces where Serbs were imprisoned and a

 4     certain number of Croats; is that correct?

 5        A.   I really have never seen them.  I've heard of them, but I don't

 6     have the information that you have mentioned.  But certainly I will agree

 7     that people were imprisoned.

 8        Q.   As far as Banja Luka is concerned, I believe that you mentioned

 9     yesterday in answering to my learned friend's question, that there was an

10     SDA initiative to establish new municipalities in Banja Luka; correct?

11        A.   Yes.  Not only the SDA, I mentioned that it was the initiative of

12     all parties except the SDS.

13        Q.   And the objective was, and you have described it in your book

14     too, that based on the survey of the justification to establish these

15     municipalities, the former territory of Banja Luka be divided into some

16     six municipalities; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   But the objective of that initiative, and I will now mention

19     these envisaged municipalities, namely Stari Grad, Novi Grad, Budzak,

20     Bronzani Majdan, Krupa na Vrbasu, and Ivanjska?

21        A.   Yes, I made a mistake yesterday, I believe I mentioned Stricici,

22     but that may have been wrong, you understand that I cannot remember

23     everything.

24        Q.   And you are saying that it was actually an initiative by your

25     party to establish municipalities with a non-Serb majority, that's what

Page 5202

 1     it says in your book, you mentioned that; correct?

 2        A.   I don't remember, I would have to take a look at it, and you

 3     would have to provide me with a reference to a page in my book, but

 4     generally speaking no municipality apart from one possibly, no

 5     municipality could have had a Bosniak majority.

 6        Q.   All right.  Your statement reads that you were one of the

 7     founders of the SDA in Banja Luka, and in September 1991, what was your

 8     position in the SDA of Banja Luka?

 9        A.   First I was secretary, then I became president.

10        Q.   But in September 1991?

11        A.   I was vice-president of the SDA.

12        Q.   And of course you took part in all discussions in the party and

13     in all decision-making.  We'll now look at a document originating from

14     your party branch.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation] Can I ask for 1D1.  Now we also

16     see the B/C/S version as well as the English one.

17        Q.   The copy is not too good but I'd like to draw your attention --

18     first of all, you are familiar with the document, it comes from the

19     Municipal Board based in the cultural hall, you see the SDA stamped at

20     the bottom?  And finally, you mention this initiative in your book.  It's

21     an SDA document; right?

22        A.   It must have been, but I don't remember this document.  I still

23     haven't had time to look at it properly.  I'm looking at the English

24     version because the B/C/S one is bad.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  Of B/C/S version,

Page 5203

 1     please, of second paragraph.  Second paragraph of B/C/S version just

 2     enlarged, please.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Let me help you, if I can.  It says that the

 4     Banja Luka municipality is one of the largest in Yugoslavia, and you

 5     discussed this with my colleague yesterday.  It was not very efficient

 6     and there were certain initiatives to divide it up.  What's important to

 7     me in this document, which reflects the initiative for all this, is that

 8     the main motivation, as it says in the last sentence, is "in this

 9     environment, Muslims have an advantage over the Serbian element, 38 to 36

10     per cent, while together with other ethnic groups, they comprise a

11     two-thirds majority, 64 per cent."  Can you see this?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Your party initiative to set up these municipalities was, in

14     fact, driven by the SDA's idea to create municipalities with the majority

15     non-Serb population, that's what we see from this document?

16        A.   I think you are mostly right, but I don't agree with the non-Serb

17     population part.  I don't how authentic this document is.

18        Q.   Just for the record, let's be quite clear.  The motivation of

19     this move was to create municipalities where Muslims together with other

20     ethnic communities would have an approximately 64 per cent majority?

21        A.   You are reading the last sentence.  You are taking it out of

22     context.  You have to look at this passage in its full context.

23        Q.   Well, how do you understand this?

24        A.   There are also economic considerations, and as the political

25     situation was as it was, non-Serbs could hardly wait to get a chance to

Page 5204

 1     have some influence on local self-government, and this was a real chance

 2     and if we had had real authorities, we would have maintained peace.

 3     There would have been no such conflicts.

 4        Q.   I'm telling you again that my position is this, the SDA wanted to

 5     create several municipalities in Banja Luka with a majority non-Serb

 6     population in order to be able to form a government and to exercise power

 7     efficiently.  Just answer me with a yes or no.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  Now we look at another document, 1D4.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a draft of the statutory decision of the

11     organisation of a Stari Grad Banja Luka Municipal Assembly in the process

12     of being established.  Are you familiar with this document, Mr. Krzic?

13        A.   I can't say I am because I don't have it.  I haven't seen it

14     before.  At least I can't remember.

15        Q.   All right, Mr. Krzic.  We got these documents from the

16     Prosecution, but that concerns our procedure, not you.  Was there any

17     discussion at your party meetings about the draft of this decision to

18     organise the Stari Grad Banja Luka municipality?

19        A.   Yes, I can't remember participating in it.

20        Q.   All right.  I'd like to ask you about something else now.  One of

21     the objectives of your work in Banja Luka in a large percentage of your

22     secret clandestine activities that you mentioned in the book was to lobby

23     to get the deployment of international military forces in Banja Luka, yes

24     or no?

25        A.   Those were our wishes.  We didn't have any other objective except

Page 5205

 1     to report the real situation in the territory.

 2        Q.   Wait a minute.  SFOR finally came so your wishes came true.

 3     Let's move on.

 4             Was it one of your objectives to draw media attention to Banja

 5     Luka and Bosnian Krajina?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Was it another of your objectives in your clandestine work to

 8     form a professional team to monitor the situation in Bosnian Krajina?

 9        A.   You call that a team, I call it a group.

10        Q.   All right.  Let it be a group.  Was it the case?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Was it your aim it to disable the resettlement of Serbs in Banja

13     Luka?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Was it one of your aims to exert continuous military pressure on

16     the Vlasic-Jajce-Kupres line and the Travnik-Vecici-Kotor Varos line?

17        A.   I don't see how we could have contributed to that purpose.  It

18     was a wish.

19        Q.   Yes, wish.

20        A.   It was the wish of every citizen.

21        Q.   I'm not interested in every citizen, I'm asking about you.

22        A.   Yes, it was my wish, I would have really wanted

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina --

24        Q.   No, no, wait.  Let's be very precise.  It was your wish to exert

25     continuous military pressure on the Vlasic-Jajce-Kupres line and the

Page 5206

 1     Travnik-Vecici-Kotor Varos line; right?

 2        A.   Please to have an objective is one thing, an intimate desire is

 3     something else.  Intimate desires are not up for discussion here.

 4        Q.   We'll come to intimate desires.  Was it one of your aims or let's

 5     say intimate desires to conduct surveillance over prominent SDS members

 6     in some of the cities to contribute to your security?

 7        A.   I can't remember anything of the sort.

 8        Q.   Let's find a reminder then.

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  Just a moment.  It's number -- yes, it's in

10     e-court, 2D05-0047.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Pantelic.

12             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  While we are waiting for the document, the

14     qualification of the witness's work or activities as clandestine, is that

15     your qualification or is that the witness's qualification?  You use it

16     but do you have it from his book, or is it your qualification?

17             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, the answer is in front of us.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  [Microphone not activated]

19             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes.  Could we have the last page, please

20     [Microphone not activated]

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krzic, towards the bottom of the page, do we

22     see your signature, Muharem Krzic, president of the Executive Board of

23     the SDA?

24        A.   I think so, yes, it is.

25        Q.   Yes, it is.  In this correspondence between parties, you use this

Page 5207

 1     greeting Mahsuz Sellam, we discussed this before?

 2        A.   Yes, but it does conclude with best regards, doesn't it?

 3        Q.   It does.  But please read to the Trial Chamber your own

 4     proposals.  Point 1, for the record.

 5        A.   Please, will you allow me to add something to this?

 6        Q.   No, I won't.  Let the Prosecutor allow you to do this.

 7        A.   Well, then you read it.

 8        Q.   I don't mind.  In this document in point 1, does it say:

 9             "Urgent deployment of international military forces in Banja

10     Luka."  Yes or no?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Point 2, "media attention to Banja Luka and Bosanska Krajina."

13     Yes or no?

14        A.   Yes.  My answer is going to be yes to all of these points if you

15     read them out.

16        Q.   3:  "Establish a professional team to monitor the situation in

17     Bosanska Krajina."  Yes or no?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Point 4:  "Prevent any form of Serb resettlement in Banja Luka."

20     Yes or no?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   5:  "Continuous military pressure on Vlasic-Jajce-Kupres and

23     Travnik-Vecici-Kotor Varos" yes or no?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And point 6:  "Keep an eye on prominent members of the SDS in

Page 5208

 1     some of the cities as a guarantee of our safety" yes or no?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Krzic.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  Can we have this document as next exhibit, please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit 2D31, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What was the dates, I forgot again?

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  Can we have the first page, please.  The date is

 9     11th of October, 1992.

10             [Interpretation] Now do you remember, Mr. Krzic --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Pantelic, I'm sorry, but I didn't see the

12     answer to my question in what you showed us.  You said we would see it in

13     this document, in the previous one.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Maybe I didn't understand you, Your Honour.  I was

15     asking him to confirm these measures that he proposed to the --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, my question was -- my question was about the

17     beginning of this line of questions.  You said his activities -- his

18     activities were clandestine.  You qualified them as clandestine, and my

19     question is, is that your qualification of his activities or is that the

20     witness's qualification, in his book eventually?

21             MR. PANTELIC:  I clarify that immediately, Your Honour, but this

22     is another line of question but for the basis I'll establish immediately.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Krzic, you heard the Judge, His Honour

24     Judge Delvoie.  You will agree with me if I say that based on all of your

25     witness statements and your book and everything else, I came to the

Page 5209

 1     conclusion that you led a very proactive clandestine activity in Banja

 2     Luka?

 3        A.   That's partially true.

 4        Q.   It involved contacts with your own representatives, with foreign

 5     embassies, international representatives, et cetera?

 6        A.   But it wasn't clandestine.

 7        Q.   In those activities you use code-names, encryption, some secret

 8     science?

 9        A.   Not with the institutions you mentioned.  It was exclusively used

10     among members of the Executive Board of the SDA.

11        Q.   All right.  We'll come back to that.  But you had a group that

12     secretly gathered intelligence on the Army of Republika Srpska, the

13     movements of troops, funerals of Serb soldiers, et cetera?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And in that group of yours, you used code-names?

16        A.   No, it was only between one other person and me.  Just one other

17     person and me.

18        Q.   But you were the brain of the whole operation in the group?

19        A.   I was not the brain of the group.  It was all spontaneous.

20     Everything that was found out on the ground was transmitted to me

21     reckoning that I would go abroad.

22        Q.   But you were at the head of this intelligence group?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And your code-name was Torry?

25        A.   I think I started using that Tory code-name only towards the end

Page 5210

 1     of 1992 hoping that it would give me some protection.  As for the other

 2     code-names, I don't know anything.

 3        Q.   What was your code word for weapons?  Was it "timber"?

 4        A.   I really don't know.  It was only in the correspondence between

 5     another member and me.

 6        Q.   And the code word for danger was "heat"?

 7        A.   I really can't remember.  I see you have information from the

 8     police who interrogated that group.  What they told the police, I really

 9     don't know.

10        Q.   To tell you the truth, all this is in your statements, but we'll

11     come to that later.  No need to defend yourself.  That's your activity

12     and you were convicted before a competent Court for that.  But what I

13     want to know about is the rally that the SDA organised in Banja Luka, and

14     that was, correct me if I'm wrong, on the 20th April 1991.  You remember

15     that rally?

16        A.   Of course I remember the rally, but I would really have to look

17     at my notes to confirm the date, but I take your word for it.

18        Q.   That's what you say in your book?

19        A.   Then it must be so.

20        Q.   You say that renowned representatives of the Bosniak community

21     from Zazine Krajina dared to come to the very nest of the Chetnik

22     headquarters.

23        A.   That's the derogatory term we used for hotel Bosna.

24        Q.   And then President Alija Izetbegovic who attended the rally said

25     the following:

Page 5211

 1             "We send a message to our neighbours that we will share both good

 2     and evil with them, but we will never again go with our heads bent and we

 3     will never again be second-class citizens.  We offer them to build

 4     jointly a joint state."  You remember these words by Izetbegovic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   How do you understand these words?  I didn't understand from your

 7     answers that Muslims used to be second-class citizens in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  What is this supposed to mean in this context?  In

 9     1992 who was threatening the interests of the Bosniak people?

10        A.   I think it had more to do with the historical context.  Why?

11     Primarily because Bosniaks as a people were unfortunately not recognised

12     in the former Yugoslavia.  They could declare themselves in the census as

13     Muslims, but it was not our historical name, and I think these words by

14     Izetbegovic refer to that.

15        Q.   You go on to say that the joint message was a unified integrated

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina without creating nationally homogenous regions which

17     would be against all the peoples, and it goes on to say, There would be

18     no division of Bosnia except if someone wishes bloodshed?

19        A.   I believe you are reading correctly.

20        Q.   How did you interpret this statement he made, this remark that it

21     may end in bloodshed?  Was it a peacemaking speech, or was it a kind of

22     brandishing of arms?

23        A.   Of course as he was speaking, I was not able to analyse every

24     word, but I think the general impression was very positive.  There were

25     Serbs also at the rally, there was a pretty loud applause in the second

Page 5212

 1     part of the rally, and this passage where Izetbegovic spoke about joint

 2     construction was welcomed by Mr. Abdic who clarified this economic part

 3     at least with regard to Bosnian Krajina.

 4             And then you should also know that Bosnia is a patchwork

 5     ethnically speaking, a leopard skin, and every attempt to create

 6     exclusive territories where there would be no room for others meant

 7     bloodshed because no one would accept it, and I think it ultimately

 8     turned out that what Mr. Izetbegovic said was true.

 9        Q.   And in 1991 armed forces were created under the name of Patriotic

10     League?

11        A.   I don't know the exact date.

12        Q.   But armed forces were established?

13        A.   Perhaps only on paper.  We also wanted to make supplies of

14     medicines and bandages in case of war.  Anyway, I was not informed of

15     that, although I was permanently in Banja Luka at the time.

16        Q.   All right, but you did speak about the indivisibility of

17     territories but you also said and confirmed that you wanted to form six

18     new municipalities within the municipality of Banja Luka with a non-Serb

19     majority.  Isn't that contrary to what Izetbegovic is saying?

20        A.   You are forgetting to mention the formation of ZOBK the

21     Autonomous Region of Krajina, and this referendum, and the SAO Krajina

22     exclusively Serb creations.  All this came before.

23        Q.   You told us here that it was your initiative to create

24     municipalities with a majority non-Serb population.  You confirmed this

25     for the record.  It's documented.  So I'm asking you now, isn't that

Page 5213

 1     contrary to your interpretation of Izetbegovic's speech, yes or no?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.  You use very often in your statements

 4     and in your writings the phrase that Banja Luka was a concentration camp?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Would that be part of your literary writing, or is it a claim

 7     that Banja Luka was a concentration camp?  Please hear me out.  Do you

 8     agree that a concentration camp, as I understand it at least, from the

 9     tragic history of the Second World War should have armed security, should

10     have a certain structure, and people within are destroyed?  How do you

11     explain that when Banja Luka was a place when there were planes and buses

12     travelling from Banja Luka, international representatives were coming and

13     going, life was going on, with all the incidents that also occurred I

14     don't deny, isn't it -- isn't this literary language of yours that Banja

15     Luka was a concentration camp a little bit exaggerated?  Please don't --

16     this is cross-examination, just answer me with a -- was it an

17     exaggeration?

18        A.   I agree with you about the memory of the Second World War.  The

19     Warsaw ghetto was not a ghetto to begin with.

20        Q.   Mr. Krzic, this is a cross-examination, please.  I'm asking you

21     on the basis of all I stated before, would you correct your statement

22     now?  Would you say that perhaps you were rather liberal in your estimate

23     of the situation in Banja Luka, do you change your position or not?

24        A.   Am I allowed to say to which dates this refers because as far as

25     1992 and 1993 is concerned, I stand behind what I said.

Page 5214

 1        Q.   When you mention genocide, do you know the legal definition of

 2     genocide, do you have the legal training to enable you to know what it

 3     is?

 4        A.   I could explain that but that would take too much time, and it

 5     isn't necessary.

 6        Q.   Is it correct that in your books and statements, you exaggerate

 7     some events and to do so for purposes of propaganda, that's why you

 8     mention genocide, concentration camps, extermination, et cetera?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   You did so for propaganda reasons to attract the attention of the

11     international public; is that correct?

12        A.   No, I have evidence to corroborate all that.

13        Q.   But that's not legal evidence, these are your assessments; right?

14        A.   But there is legal evidence among that too.

15        Q.   I would like to define something here, namely, in your statements

16     and in your book you mention that you were arrested by soldiers and taken

17     to the CSB building in Banja Luka, later to Mali Logor in Banja Luka, do

18     you remember those episodes?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And for the transcript and for the benefit of this case, I would

21     like you to agree with me that this all was happening on September 1993?

22        A.   Well, I'm not fully concentrated, so I'm not sure if it's

23     September or early October, but I believe it was September 11th.

24        Q.   Which year?

25        A.   1993.

Page 5215

 1        Q.   During a military action, September 1993; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   This was very important to me because all these events are

 4     outside of the scope of the indictment so we don't want to waste time on

 5     that and take it off the agenda.

 6             Now, about Banja Luka, let's clarify some issues.  Number one, in

 7     your statement you say that the SDA, which party was dissatisfied with

 8     political life, to put it that way, that the SDA walked out of the Banja

 9     Luka Assembly; correct?

10        A.   To express their protest.

11        Q.   Protest, yes.  And that protest, the reason for that protest was

12     the fact that out of 117 members of the Assembly, 68 voted in favour,

13     that's a majority; correct?

14        A.   Yes, but that was a simple majority, a two-thirds majority was

15     required.

16        Q.   Please wait, I'm going step by step, we'll clarify everything.

17     You are saying that the SDS then created a majority because they were

18     able to get some votes from other parties; correct?  Who do I have in

19     mind specifically, the communists and your former Muslim Assembly member

20     Mr. Emir Busatlic, that's what you say in your book, is that correct?

21        A.   No, not for that reason.

22        Q.   The SDS, whatever parties, passed a majority decision about

23     joining the association of communities -- sorry, municipalities of

24     Bosnian Krajina.  That was on the 1st of May 1991, yes or no?

25        A.   Yes, that decision was taken.

Page 5216

 1        Q.   And then to express your protest, when I say you, I mean the SDA

 2     party, you walked out; correct?

 3        A.   Because the procedure was illegal.

 4        Q.   Excellent.  Now, tell me your personal opinion.  What was

 5     happening and how do you assess the procedure during the night between

 6     the 14th and 15th October 1991 in the Assembly of the Republic of BiH

 7     when the vital interests of the representatives of the Serbian people

 8     were jeopardized and when the Serbs were outvoted by the Muslims and

 9     Croats?  Tell me, did that threaten the constitutional order, yes or no?

10        A.   I don't know the constitution that was in force at the time, and

11     especially I'm not familiar with the rules of procedure of the then

12     parliament of BiH.

13        Q.   Yes, but you remember that this caused a serious crisis after

14     which a series of events ensued?

15        A.   Yes, I remember that event when the representatives of the Serb

16     people left the parliament.

17        Q.   In your contacts in Banja Luka, did you ever hear that the main

18     motive was the unconstitutional outvoting of the Serb representatives?

19        A.   Most probably I did hear about it but I didn't interpret it that

20     way because I wasn't familiar with the regulations -- laws and

21     regulations.

22        Q.   Now, that we are speaking about the establishing of the Republika

23     Srpska, you know that it was established by plebiscite in January 1992,

24     and it came of age recently, you do know that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5217

 1        Q.   And the Republika Srpska adopted its constitution, subordinate

 2     legislation, and it established government soon afterward; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   The Republika Srpska as the the other part of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 6     which other part was subsequently called the Federation of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And that Federation was made up of the representatives of Croats

10     and Muslims; correct?

11        A.   And Serbs.

12        Q.   And Serbs.  I'm referring to the territory.  The laws of former

13     Yugoslavia were applied in both entities; correct?

14        A.   As far as I remember, but, sir, these are questions you should

15     put to a legal expert.  I am willing to answer them, but, well, as far as

16     I remember constitution was adopted to the effect that the laws of the

17     SFRJ should be taken over unless they are in collision with the new laws

18     and regulations.

19        Q.   That's what I mean.

20        A.   Yes, but I'm not a legal expert, so.

21        Q.   Yes, of course.  Now, do you know that during Ante Markovic's

22     time in former Yugoslavia there were changes in the property structure

23     and a lot of private companies were founded and there was economic

24     expansion, do you know that?

25        A.   Well, that's what people were saying.

Page 5218

 1        Q.   Since you worked for Pliva in Zagreb, do you know that property

 2     was transformed into joint stock companies, you are familiar with that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And not being a lawyer, as you say, you cannot say for certain

 5     how many privately-owned companies there were in the territory of Banja

 6     Luka, and how much property transformation there was, et cetera?  I'm

 7     saying this for the sake of the transcript, you are not a legal expert

 8     and you have no accurate information about the economic structure in

 9     Banja Luka at the time about which you are testifying?

10        A.   Well, I did say that these -- that my assessment was approximate.

11        Q.   Well, the assessment of a layperson; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Just like your assessment of the mechanisms with regard to

14     acquiring real property, et cetera?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You may or may not know that in 1992 in the police, the military,

17     the public administration, the health care, there were many non-Serb

18     professionals and experts in high positions, and they were loyal citizens

19     of the Republika Srpska, do you know that?

20        A.   Yes, but I don't know their numbers.

21        Q.   Well, do you know that at the time and throughout the war -- or,

22     I apologise for this remark, we will deal with this in our Defence case,

23     but I must clarify some things with you here.  Do you know that Dr. Ivor

24     Komljenovic a Croat by ethnicity in 1992 and throughout the war was the

25     head of the dialysis ward in the Banja Luka hospital?

Page 5219

 1        A.   Yes, I think he was.

 2        Q.   Do you know that one prominent member of the government of the

 3     Republika Srpska after the war was Dr. Ivor Komljenovic who was the

 4     minister of health?

 5        A.   Yes, I know.

 6        Q.   Do you know that in 1992 until the end of June or maybe July 1992

 7     Banja Luka was encircled and completely cut off militarily?

 8        A.   You are referring to the disruption of communication around

 9     Brcko?

10        Q.   Yes?

11        A.   Yes, I believe I remember.

12        Q.   Until mid-1992, Banja Luka was surrounded by Croatian forces in

13     the north; correct?

14        A.   Well, if I go into that, I must also remember the -- I must also

15     mention the Knin Krajina --

16        Q.   But this isn't a trick question, Witness.  Croatian forces were

17     stationed in the north, so normally you couldn't go through Croatia.  In

18     the west there were the forces of the Army of BiH; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   In the south, Travnik and what you mentioned, there was also the

21     Army of BiH, but also the forces of the HVO; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   The corridor in the east was cut through partly by HVO forces in

24     the Posavina and partly by the forces of the ABiH from Doboj toward Brod;

25     correct?

Page 5220

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Well, then, Banja Luka at that time was totally isolated?

 3        A.   But as far as I know, there were routes for the supply of oil and

 4     medication, et cetera.  I don't know whether you are familiar with that.

 5        Q.   I'm referring to the overall situation.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, it's that time.

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, sorry, sorry, I wasn't watching.  Thank

 8     you.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, while the witness is coming in, I'd ask

13     if I could raise one matter with you.  The next witness, Victim Witness

14     has returned him to his hotel because based on the projections it appears

15     that we won't get to him before the end of the session today.  I just

16     wanted to advise you of that in case Your Honours wanted to take the

17     position to tell Mr. Pantelic he had 15 more minutes and Mr. Olmsted has

18     5 minutes then I could call Victim Witness and say bring him back, if

19     that's not the case then we'll just let him stay there and come tomorrow.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Hannis.  While the witness is

21     returning to the stand, the Chamber is concerned that the times which

22     have been projected by counsel, in some cases extended times, is not

23     being efficiently and effectively used, and the fact that counsel on any

24     side has been allotted a block of time doesn't mean that that time is to

25     be spent on matters that are obviously irrelevant, and counsel -- with

Page 5221

 1     counsel to undertake excursions into matters which are at best of

 2     peripheral and tangential importance, and I remind counsel that the

 3     Chamber reserves the right notwithstanding the times which have been

 4     allotted by previous agreement to bring examination or cross-examination

 5     to an end as the case may be in order to move these matters forward as

 6     efficiently and effectively and progressively as they should be.  Thank

 7     you.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Krzic, before the break we spoke about Banja Luka being

11     surrounded and about certain aspects of life in Banja Luka itself.  Do

12     you agree with me when I say that a huge number of refugees of Serb

13     ethnicity, mostly from Croatia and other territories outside Banja Luka,

14     to a significant extent impaired the normal functioning of the city?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Likewise, the presence of a great number of soldiers coming from

17     the front line and some military operations greatly jeopardised the

18     safety of the citizens of Banja Luka which you also mentioned in some

19     statements of yours?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   At the same time a military corps was deployed in Banja Luka, it

22     was the 5th JNA Corps and later on it was renamed into the Krajina Corps

23     commanded by General Talic?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You are not a military expert and neither am I, but I believe

Page 5222

 1     that the strength of that corps was about -- I've just been told about

 2     100.000 soldiers?

 3        A.   Well, I wouldn't go as far as that.

 4        Q.   Well, if a brigade had from 3- to 5.000, it depends on the number

 5     of brigades in the corps.  But anyway, we will agree that the Krajina

 6     Corps was a respectively military force which was deployed in the Bosnian

 7     Krajina?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you know -- well, it's common knowledge more or less, but do

10     you know that on the 12th of May, the decision of the Presidency of the

11     Republika Srpska was confirmed by the Assembly, and it was a decision

12     about the existence of the imminent threat of war?  Do you remember that?

13        A.   Yes, I remember, but I'm not sure about the date.

14        Q.   At any rate, we will certainly agree based on some information

15     that we have that in this situation the imminent threat of war, the

16     military factor assumes a great importance; isn't that right?

17        A.   I suppose it is.

18        Q.   That applies to the process of mobilisation, the launching of

19     certain procedures, and with regard to deserters and others so that

20     military courts get a greater significance than in peacetime?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Parts of your evidence, and you mentioned a detail in the

23     marketplace when soldiers were behaving arrogantly toward non-Serb

24     population, provoking people, et cetera, and you also say that soldiers

25     blackmailed the owners of small businesses if they were not Serbs, do you

Page 5223

 1     remember saying that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In that period, your personal activity and that of your party was

 4     directed toward indicating such incidents and that's why you contacted

 5     military officers very often?

 6        A.   Not very often.  There were only two or three such meetings.

 7        Q.   In that period you also acted as an intermediary trying to

 8     influence the resolution of the situation in Kotor Varos.  Tell us

 9     briefly what kind of activities those were and what made you get

10     involved?

11        A.   In Kotor Varos, as opposed to the situation in some other towns

12     where I went sometimes, well, Kotor Varos wasn't a place that I didn't

13     visit.  In that latest incident, and we saw relevant document today, I

14     was invited by Mr. Kupresanin immediately after I had met Mr. Galbraith,

15     the US representative, and why did I agree to go to Kotor Varos?  I

16     believe I explained my reasons, but here they are anyway.  I went there

17     to monitor the surrender of those people who had put up resistance so as

18     not to be slaughtered or taken away some place, if that will suffice.

19        Q.   In other words, in the Kotor Varos municipality, there was fierce

20     fighting between Muslim forces and Serb force; correct?

21        A.   There were combined Muslim Croat forces fighting Serb forces.

22        Q.   Who commanded those Muslim Croat forces, do you know his name?

23        A.   That was the first time I met the people who were the leaders of

24     that resistance.  That was the in the village of Vecici.  In other areas,

25     other people were in charge.  I am speaking about three people, should I

Page 5224

 1     mention their names?

 2        Q.   Yes, do give me the name if you know.

 3        A.   There were three.  One was Alagic, I don't know his first name.

 4     He was wearing an ABiH uniform, he got killed later, and two others

 5     didn't wear uniforms, the name of one was Hilmo or Necko.  These are the

 6     three people I met, and not only me but also the others who were a member

 7     of that delegation.

 8        Q.   Was Muhamed Sadikovic the commander of that military unit in that

 9     zone of Kotor Varos?

10        A.   I didn't see or meet him there.  I only got to meet him later in

11     Travnik.

12        Q.   I'm merely asking because he is the co-author of your book and he

13     describes the situation in great detail.  But let's go on anyway.

14             So you were a mediator in let's call it the safe departure from

15     that territory, of course assisted by the national representatives, so

16     the armed formation of the ABiH left the territory around Kotor Varos?

17        A.   It was my task to convince them, and not only me, but also the

18     other members of that group, to convince them to surrender, to persuade

19     them.  Whatever I said, I said because I wanted to save human lives.  My

20     only role in that was the following:  I said I didn't want to know about

21     the military forces, their strength or any other details.  I only

22     insisted that international humanitarian organisations and foreign

23     journalists be involved in the surrender, and I believe that's how it

24     took place too.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, before your next question, I will

Page 5225

 1     interrupt to bring your attention to it's 12.44.  You are required to

 2     complete your cross-examination by 1.30 at the very latest, and the

 3     remaining 15 minutes will be allowed to Mr. Olmsted to re-examine, so to

 4     be finished this witness by 1 -- in order to take the adjournment at

 5     1.45.

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] We will agree probably, if you remember it, that

 8     these military operations in the territory of Kotor Varos lasted until

 9     May or June 1992 -- sorry, from May June 1992, until the autumn?

10        A.   Well, I was there in October, that being still autumn.

11        Q.   At that time you co-operated with and kept in touch with the

12     commander of the Serbian forces, at that time Lieutenant-Colonel Bosko

13     Peulic?

14        A.   That's when I first met him.

15        Q.   In these contacts with him, what was your impression about him?

16     Was he a man of authority in his area of responsibility, or was he just a

17     part of the delegation?  What would you say?

18        A.   Without going into his actual powers in the chain of military

19     hierarchy which I'm not familiar with, I thought, it was my impression,

20     that he was a man of authority.

21        Q.   In the context of not Kotor Varos but the broader area, you speak

22     of the attack by "our group Osa" consisting of saboteurs from Croatia

23     which destroyed several aircraft in the area of Mahovljani, do you

24     remember this?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5226

 1        Q.   That's an airfield near Banja Luka, right?  Mahovljani.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did this operation really happen?

 4        A.   It was on the radio, I'm not sure about the television.  We had

 5     constant blackouts, but there was a report on the radio, and I believe

 6     the newspapers wrote about it.  It was on Radio Banja Luka.

 7        Q.   What was this Osa group?  Was it an armed unit?

 8        A.   It was obviously armed.  We had not known anything about it until

 9     that report, and they were obviously sent from Croatia.

10        Q.   Were they arrested later?  Did they manage to return to Croatia,

11     or were they put on trial in Banja Luka?

12        A.   I don't know that any of them were arrested.  I don't know of any

13     trial.

14        Q.   Compared to the work of the SDA that is relative to the work of

15     the SDA in the area of Bosnian Krajina, you mentioned several times that

16     you met with your colleagues frequently or almost always in Prijedor

17     because the SDA was in power in Prijedor?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So that's where you felt safe and you had all the freedom to

20     conduct your party activities?  Prijedor was your regional centre, wasn't

21     it?

22        A.   It wasn't.

23        Q.   So why did you choose Prijedor for your frequent contact?

24        A.   First of all, they were not frequent.  I think you can count on

25     the fingers of one hand how many times I was in Prijedor.  But sometimes

Page 5227

 1     those were meetings of the regional board.  You were right, though, that

 2     we felt a little safer there, at least you were safe from surveillance by

 3     the police in wire-tapping, which was quite uncomfortable.  So Prijedor

 4     was safer but it wasn't the base of the SDA party.

 5        Q.   Be that as it may, the materials mention that there were a couple

 6     of thousand pieces of weapons in the area of Prijedor and even a light

 7     calibre cannon?

 8        A.   We heard about the same thing, but it could have been propaganda

 9     because it was well known that we were coming from Banja Luka and among

10     all the members of the SDA there was a lack of security culture.  All of

11     them were laymen who were quite new to politics.  Apart from me, very few

12     people had any experience in politics.

13        Q.   You personally, apart from the weapon that you mentioned, also

14     owned a Beretta pistol?

15        A.   Yes, a licensed pistol.

16        Q.   You also had a 9-millimetre pistol?

17        A.   I refuse to answer.

18        Q.   Well, what difference does it make, Mr. Krzic, whether you had

19     one or not, it's the same thing?  I mean, I really don't understand?  You

20     intrigue me now, what's the problem with that pistol?  Was it perhaps

21     involved in a crime?  Did you wound or kill anyone?

22        A.   No.  I never even fired it.  But this Beretta was taken away from

23     me although I had a licence and although I personally was shot at at my

24     door-step and grenades fell as close as 20, 30 metres away from me, and I

25     wanted to have some protection at least to die an honourable death if

Page 5228

 1     nothing else without suffering too much at the end.

 2        Q.   Well, although this is a bit outside of the period of the

 3     indictment, but it's still relevant to your situation, you said that when

 4     in September 1993 some people from the military arrested you and detained

 5     you, some police officers, although it's not certain whether they were

 6     real police officers or paramilitary, you said that these police officers

 7     regular or irregular saved you from that military detention?

 8        A.   That's what I was told.

 9        Q.   They snatched you out of that military prison and took you to

10     some motel?

11        A.   I think you confuse the beginning and the end.  I thought you

12     were talking about the beginning when I went through all sorts of torture

13     that I described, and I still can't imagine how I managed to survive all

14     that.  After all this torture when I was already unconscious, suddenly

15     two men burst into the building of the SUP, nowadays CSB, and dragged me

16     down the stairs because I couldn't walk, hoisted me up on a chair, and

17     whispered in my ear -- no, sorry, I got it wrong.  None of them told me

18     anything, but later when I was taken to the suburbs of Banja Luka in that

19     car and when they dragged me out into that low building with all that

20     electronic equipment and computers and radio stations, et cetera, one of

21     them set me in a chair and said, Do you want to have a vodka?  I replied,

22     I thought you were going to execute me.  And he answered, No, we come

23     from Mr. Karadzic.  We are here to save you.  That's the whole story.

24        Q.   At any rate without going into all that detail, it was obviously

25     a reason why you were under special protection in Banja Luka?

Page 5229

 1        A.   I haven't found out to this day, although I think the reason lies

 2     in my exposure because I was visited by foreign journalists, foreign

 3     diplomats, and to this day I can't understand how it is that I stayed

 4     alive.  I see that as God's will.

 5        Q.   All this, Mr. Krzic, was going on in September 1993; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, correct.

 7        Q.   As an intellectual, you are aware of certain criminal legal

 8     aspects and you have also done your military service and you've read

 9     literature.  You know that there is such a crime as espionage?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Espionage as a crime in wartime under any system becomes an

12     aggravated act as compared to peacetime?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   I now wish to ask you, I think it was in 1991 when your son

15     visited -- or rather, served in the military, did his military service

16     Vinkovci and Slavonski Brod?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   During his military service, you travelled with your family to

19     visit him, and on your way back you noticed certain movements of JNA

20     units?

21        A.   Those were not JNA units, they were civilians wearing visor caps.

22     Some of them were leather caps, they were rather close so I could see

23     their vehicles.

24        Q.   They were members of which units?

25        A.   I couldn't know.  They showed the three-finger sign which could

Page 5230

 1     have been a threat or a sign of support because my car had Banja Luka

 2     licence plates.  It's difficult to guess.

 3        Q.   In your evidence you mentioned some place that going back through

 4     Croatia you telephoned a friend of yours with the initial T in Zagreb,

 5     and informed him of the movement of armoured units based in Zaluzani if

 6     I'm not mistaken?

 7        A.   No, did I not say anything about movement.  I just told him these

 8     units had received lethal ammunition -- live ammunition, but that was in

 9     the context of the previous incident you mentioned.

10        Q.   Yes, that was all in the middle of 1991?

11        A.   Yes, around that time.

12        Q.   And where were the JNA armoured units stationed, the ones you

13     mentioned to your friend in Zagreb?

14        A.   In Zaluzani.

15        Q.   When did you begin your intelligence work in Banja Luka?  When

16     did you decide to form this group to collect all sorts of information?

17        A.   That happened quite spontaneously.  But, in fact, the collection

18     of information started much earlier because the International Red Cross

19     and the high commissioner wanted us to report to them daily what is going

20     on in Banja Luka and we did that.  And all these reports that you may or

21     may not have were given verbally or in writing to all the heads of these

22     international organisations.  However, when we begin to -- when we began

23     to suspect that these reports that were sent suddenly to their head

24     offices did not end up only in the hands of politicians, we began sending

25     our own reports to all the addresses that we could find.  Sometimes we

Page 5231

 1     sent them openly.  The Serbian authorities deliberately allowed me to

 2     keep my telephone and my fax machine, and there was no doubt they were

 3     continuing to wire-tap both.  And as you rightly say, when I had the

 4     report to make where the source was questionable, I sent it in different

 5     ways that I don't think I'm going to discuss here.

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  Maybe it's appropriate time to go into private

 7     session, due to the recent answer that we got.  Just for a couple of

 8     minutes, I think, because he is about to reveal --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Is it relevant, Mr. Pantelic?

10             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, it's relevant, of course.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Relevant to what?

12             MR. PANTELIC:  To the case.  To the case here that we have.

13             JUDGE HALL:  It doesn't appear to any of us on the face of it

14     that it is.  Can you indicate --

15             MR. PANTELIC:  I'll move on.  I'll move on.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

17             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation]

18        Q.   We'll now look at your statement of 22nd -- 26th through 29th

19     August, 2001.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation] In e-court, it's 2D06-0463.

21        Q.   While we are waiting for this passage from your statement to come

22     up, could you tell me this, I think it's also mentioned in your writings,

23     namely that apart from your associates, there was also your wife in

24     Zagreb who passed on this information?

25        A.   Yes, to some extent.

Page 5232

 1        Q.   Was your son also involved?

 2        A.   No, certainly not.

 3        Q.   He was not a member of the BH Army at the time, was he?

 4        A.   No, and he was not aware of these things.  He was in Zagreb.

 5        Q.   I understand.  So he did not respond to the mobilisation call-up?

 6        A.   How is he supposed to answer the mobilisation call-up?  He did

 7     his military service in the Yugoslav People's Army.

 8        Q.   Let's look at page 6 of your statement in Bosnian.  That's

 9     correct.

10             MR. PANTELIC:  [Interpretation] If we could just see the top of

11     the page.  Sorry, scroll down to see the last paragraph.

12        Q.   I don't know, Mr. Krzic, should I give you the English version?

13     It's not in dispute that you gave this statement; right?

14        A.   What do you want me to look at?

15        Q.   The last paragraph.  Not to waste time reading it.

16        A.   Just tell me, how does it begin?

17        Q.   The last paragraph begins with the words:

18             "Throughout my stay in Banja Luka, as long as I was in Banja

19     Luka..." will you just confirm.  It says that a simple gist of code words

20     was devised for communication with Smajo Djuzel.  For President

21     Izetbegovic this is not a good translation.  You used code name Babo or

22     Dido.  Bobo doesn't sound right.  Babo is logical.  Danger was called

23     "heat" in your code language?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You had over 100 code words in your communication with Smajo

Page 5233

 1     Djuzel, maybe more?

 2        A.   It was a very short list of code words, really, because we did

 3     not exchange much information, and I did not receive any significant

 4     information in this way, apart from some private reports about internal

 5     quarrels about -- among those people who stayed down there, no directives

 6     or anything of the sort.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Pantelic, you have lost me.  I fail to see

 8     how this has any relevance to the trial.  So please explain to me, make

 9     it clear.

10             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, absolutely, I will give the grounds.

11     Your Honour, Mr. Krzic, and we shall show the relevant documents at the

12     end of line of these questions, in accordance with his previous

13     statements and also the part of statement that he gave to OTP, was

14     organiser and chief of network of intelligence group and finally members

15     of these group and Mr. Krzic were persecuted, charged by the indictment

16     of military Prosecutor and finally judgement was delivered.

17             The point here is that we as Defence would like to show that any

18     proceedings against Mr. Krzic or because he is rely about certain events

19     in military and police and, you know, these services, was not arbitrary,

20     number one.  All these proceedings were in accordance with valid

21     legislation.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But that is not disputed.  Point one, it's

23     outside the scope of the indictment.  Point two, nobody has challenged

24     that Mr. Krzic was subsequently prosecuted and convicted for espionage.

25     This is completely outside the interests to this trial.  Unless you do it

Page 5234

 1     for the purpose of challenging the credibility of the witness, but in

 2     that case, please advise us as to which parts of his testimony in your

 3     view are unreliable because of the witness's, in your view, his

 4     unreliability.

 5             MR. PANTELIC:  Absolutely, Your Honour.  The theory of

 6     Prosecution case is that my client is responsible being a member or

 7     supporter or aider or abettor of joint criminal enterprise on a larger

 8     scale, not including just Bosanska Krajina and elsewhere.  Part of the

 9     indictment is the -- that he through his omissions to work professionally

10     and also as a form of prosecution, he denied basic rights of non-Serbs in

11     this region through policy, acts you know, aiding and abetting procedure,

12     and what we would like to show here through certain line of questions is

13     that practically there were sufficient grounds for criminal proceedings

14     and also this particular witness, he testified also in order to provoke

15     international reaction, at a certain stage he created non-objective

16     picture of events in Banja Luka and Banja Luka is a part of the

17     indictment.

18             So I would like to show through the facts and proofs here,

19     including the criminal proceedings against Mr. Krzic, that the nature of

20     his information which was disseminated and sent out of Banja Luka was of

21     practically non-realistic to the situation and finally, the consequences

22     that our client is facing.

23             JUDGE HALL:  But, with respect, Mr. Pantelic, wouldn't that

24     involve this Chamber going into -- in fact, conducting its own inquiry

25     into the sufficiency or insufficiency of the charges that were laid

Page 5235

 1     against this witness?  In turn, the farthest that you can go in terms of

 2     this trial is challenging, as Judge Harhoff has said, the credibility of

 3     this witness, and the Prosecution must be taken as a fact, we needn't go

 4     beyond that, because it would be wholly incompetent for this Chamber to

 5     be taken down the road where you seem to wish to take us, unless I'm

 6     wholly missing something.

 7             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, I absolutely accept your points.  The

 8     issue here is that in terms of, as you well mentioned and already pointed

 9     out, the credibility of a witness also because to a certain line of

10     questions and events in Banja Luka we got a number of answers from him,

11     and also we, for the record, would like to have a fact that he was

12     charged and he was finally convicted for his acts there.

13             JUDGE HALL:  And there's no dispute about that.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  I see my colleague.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  In any case, Mr. Pantelic, before Mr. Olmsted

16     replies, if I understand your point correctly, you are saying that the

17     acts for which your client is charged were done partly in response to the

18     misinformation that you hold that this witness was spreading in the

19     relevant period, so if I understand you correctly, you say that this

20     witness was participating in a campaign of misinformation to the outside

21     world about the conditions in Banja Luka and other places, Prijedor, and

22     for that reason the Serbian authorities had to react, and those reactions

23     were justified?  Is that your point of view?

24             MR. PANTELIC:  No, no, Your Honour.  As far as the events in

25     Banja Luka concerned, we -- the position of Defence is the following:

Page 5236

 1     Banja Luka was in very specific conditions at this period of time, and as

 2     Mr. Krzic affirmed here and confirmed, a flow of refugee came to Banja

 3     Luka and security conditions were deteriorated and many incidents

 4     occurred, et cetera, et cetera.  But the position of the Defence is to

 5     show two general things with regard to Banja Luka.  Point number 1 is

 6     that on political level that we have discussed before, the, I would say,

 7     common agreement between ruling parties were to establish a political

 8     life, then creation of municipalities, then process of dissolution in

 9     Bosnia, et cetera, et cetera.  That's one part of the background.  The

10     other parties that the theory of the Prosecution is that in pursuing the

11     common purpose and joint criminal enterprise, my client created

12     unbearable conditions for non-Serbs in Banja Luka, denying non-Serbs on

13     fundamental rights, aiding and abetting in certain policies, et cetera,

14     et cetera.

15             So the position of the Defence is the following:  We would like

16     to get a particular number of answers from this witness with regard to

17     the conditions in Banja Luka, events in Banja Luka, and ultimately

18     persons in charge or players in Banja Luka.  At the same time, at the

19     same time, Your Honours, we are - that's our position - we are free to

20     challenge credibility of this witness because we think that in order

21     to -- to inflate propaganda against Serbs' actions, at least it was an

22     exaggeration in terms of informations which was sent through official and

23     unofficial ways by this witness and his group.

24             And finally, Your Honour, if you allow me, if, and I don't think

25     that that would be a case, if there is not any dispute from the

Page 5237

 1     Prosecution side with regard to the fact that Mr. Krzic was criminally

 2     charged, indicted, and finally convicted with regard to the criminal

 3     charge of espionage against the interest of Republika Srpska, et cetera,

 4     which is a part of this military Tribunal judgement, I don't have any

 5     problem to put that on the record.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes or no, Mr. Olmsted?

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honour, the Prosecution does not contest that

 8     the witness was charged and convicted of espionage.  Just let me make one

 9     note though, he was tried in absentia, which raises the issue that Your

10     Honours are raising is how can you go into this trial -- his subtrial and

11     bring it into this trial to be a whole another trial so.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right, there we are.  Mr. Pantelic, if you are

13     seeking to elicit information from this witness about the conditions in

14     Banja Luka during the period that is covered by the indictment, then get

15     on with it.  You have 11 minutes left.

16             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Krzic, for the sake of the

18     transcript, it is not a contentious fact that you were sentenced by the

19     military court in Banja Luka to 20 years in prison for espionage, is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes, in absentia.

22        Q.   And it is also an undisputed fact that you with a group of

23     members of your party engaged in activities to the end of organising

24     armed groups which were supposed to rebel against the Serb authorities in

25     Banja Luka; correct?

Page 5238

 1        A.   No, that's wrong.

 2        Q.   But you informed SDA headquarters that at a certain point in

 3     time, several thousand members of your armed unit would be ready to put

 4     up armed resistance in Banja Luka?

 5        A.   I've never said anything of the kind.  But I did say that if

 6     there should be mass slaughter that somebody will probably use a hidden

 7     weapon.

 8        Q.   What time are you referring to?

 9        A.   When 3- or 4.000 people were driven into the Poljokono [phoen]

10     park without any warning, and they were surrounded and the PA systems

11     from police cars -- or from the PA systems from police cars we could hear

12     the worst threats, such as, Turks, you will be killed here.  On the same

13     day there were a few killings at that very place.  So the people were

14     scared that the massacres from World War II would be repeated.

15             I thought that at that moment, at such a moment, people would

16     react with weapons, but they were on a clearing and probably the Serb

17     authorities couldn't wait for something like that to happen, to

18     retaliate.  And the objective probably was to prevent [indiscernible]

19     from coming to Banja Luka.  But speaking about espionage, the high

20     commissioner and the International Red Cross were immediately informed of

21     the event and what I'm speaking about was not my idea.  They were people

22     who had experience who assessed that this was in fact a plot.

23        Q.   All right.  But let's go into this issue of the Muslim forces

24     opposing the Serb forces.  How many fighters did you have?

25        A.   Well, at my direct and indirect disposal, I didn't have any one

Page 5239

 1     fighter.

 2        Q.   But you said a minute ago that there were some illegal weapons

 3     ready to be used, I'm merely asking you how many fighters armed with

 4     those illegal weapons are you talking about?

 5        A.   Sir, I received information about both the Serb side and the

 6     non-Serb side for various sources, but that doesn't mean that I had any

 7     leading role in that or I directed things.

 8        Q.   I'm not claiming that, but I want to hear from you what the

 9     strength of that armed unit was?

10        A.   I suppose that there were no more than 2.000 pieces of small

11     calibre weapons in the hands of non-Serbs in Banja Luka, and I hasten to

12     add, those were the figures of which I was informed by the Serb

13     authorities, and I thought that they were probably correct.  But that

14     number includes hunting weapons too and there must have been hundreds

15     around.

16        Q.   All right.  I can accept that as your view, but tell me now,

17     Mr. Krzic, in these final questions, I consulted my client, and you

18     mentioned that you saw Mr. Zupljanin in the Bosna hotel on the occasion

19     of the meeting with Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen.  Much time has elapsed, but

20     my client says that he met Vance and Owen but in the office of Mr. Radic

21     and the municipal building, the town hall.  That the meeting didn't take

22     place at the Bosna hotel.  Do you think that might be right?  Would you

23     be willing to correct your statement?

24        A.   I received that piece of information from my co-workers.  I

25     couldn't be everywhere all the time.  I was in a meeting with

Page 5240

 1     Mr. Karadzic and Krajisnik and Mr. Brdjanin.  I couldn't see everything

 2     with my own eyes, but what matters is the press conference, which was

 3     public.  So the commander of the CSB, if he wasn't present, he certainly

 4     received a report.

 5        Q.   Well, Mr. Krzic, this is only for procedural clarification.  Do

 6     you know that in 1992 in that campaign of uncertainty, feeling insecure

 7     with regard to the many members of military units or paramilitary units,

 8     do you know that explosive devices were placed under the cars of

 9     Mr. Radic; the mayor, a Serb; and Dr. Vukic, a prominent representative

10     of the SDS also a Serb?  Did you know that their property was also blown

11     up, yes or no?

12        A.   Just a minute, I know there was explosive placed under someone's

13     car but I don't remember exactly because it's been quite some time.  I

14     would have to consult my book.  I'm not a living encyclopedia, so I don't

15     know all the details, but I think there were such incidents.

16        Q.   Apart from that, Mr. Krzic, in the examination-in-chief, there

17     was discussion about the imposition of a curfew.  Do you agree that

18     curfew is a regular measure of safety and security in the situation of

19     imminent threat of war?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Mr. Krzic, about the Crisis Staff, we learned that the SDA had

22     its Crisis Staff; right?

23        A.   I repeat, yes, it was called that, but its function was something

24     else altogether.

25        Q.   I'm not speaking about the function.  What matters to me is just

Page 5241

 1     the fact that there was an SDA Crisis Staff in Banja Luka and that the

 2     president of that Crisis Staff was Asim Jakelic?

 3        A.   Yes, but only for a few months.  It was abolished later.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, it's 1.30.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Before we give the floor to Mr. Olmsted,

 6     Mr. Pantelic, I would like to know if you wish to tender the statements

 7     of the witness into evidence?

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  I got the precise answers from him which is not

 9     disputed, so I will leave it like that.  I mean, this particular -- that

10     is not challenged, everything is consistent in his answers.  Just one

11     more question to finish, please.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Krzic, you are probably familiar with

13     the fact that in Banja Luka during that transformation of that National

14     Defence Council from about April 1992 the so-called War Staff of ARK was

15     established.  Have you heard about that in your contacts?

16        A.   I'm sorry, I don't remember that now.  I only remember the Crisis

17     Staff.

18        Q.   I just wanted to verify that piece of information with you.  By

19     way of finishing, I would like to complete the picture.  You say that in

20     November 1991, the newspaper "Vecernji List" published a story about the

21     establishment of new municipalities in Majdan and Ivanjska which was

22     organized by the HDZ.  Can you tell us now whether there were such

23     activities, is the majority of the population Croatian there?

24        A.   I must admit that I was not acquainted with either the boundaries

25     of those future municipalities.  I don't remember that at all.  Apart or

Page 5242

 1     except what you mentioned today about Centar about which I had some

 2     information.  And I spoke about that here.  As for Ivanjska, I cannot

 3     tell whether the Croats there would have been a majority or whether their

 4     share would have been fifty/fifty.  There were some Serbs there, but I

 5     don't know whether there were any Muslims.

 6        Q.   I accept that but for the stake of the transcript let's --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  [Overlapping speakers]  ... thank you.

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Olmsted:

11        Q.   Mr. Krzic, I only have 15 minutes, so please keep your answers

12     very very brief.

13             Can you tell us what was the function of the SDA Crisis Staff?

14        A.   The only function was humanitarian, and I can explain.

15        Q.   No need to explain.  Now, in your prior testimony, you explained

16     that the non-Serb parties opposed the creation of the community of

17     Bosnian Krajina municipalities also known as ZOBK.  Can you tell us from

18     the perspective of the non-Serb parties, how did the creation of ZOBK

19     relate to this concept of a greater Serbian state?

20        A.   Well, the most important thing is that in the process of uniting

21     these municipalities, I think there were 22, and there were some people

22     who took part in that who we called them traitors, but 99 per cent of

23     them were Serbian representatives, and representatives of other

24     ethnicities didn't take part in that, and another striking example that

25     the establishment of the ZOBK was conducted without regard to statutory

Page 5243

 1     or constitutional or other provisions.

 2        Q.   Let me pause you there.  I want to bring you back on track.  My

 3     question is how is this Z-o-b-k, ZOBK creation related to the concept of

 4     there's going to be one giant Serb controlled state, how did it relate to

 5     that or how did it justify your fears in that?

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  I mean, it was never

 7     raised in cross-examination this concept of greater Serbia state, and

 8     this stuff is completely out of the scope of cross-examination.  Maybe my

 9     learned friend can ask Mr. Krzic what was the process of voting, what was

10     the statutory provisions, but it's pure speculation.  I mean, greater

11     state, stuff like that, I mean it's absolutely out of the scope.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, the whole purpose of this line of

13     questioning is relating to this -- the time that the cross-examination --

14     the Defence counsel spent cross-examining on the issue of this newly

15     created Muslim municipalities in Banja Luka and so we need to go back a

16     little bit in time to understand it and put it into context.  If the

17     Trial Chamber feels that it's irrelevant, this concept of creating these

18     or this argument that these Muslim municipalities were being created,

19     then perhaps I don't have to pursue this line of questioning, but this is

20     the only witness who can really talk about this that is currently on the

21     Prosecution 65 ter Exhibit list.

22             JUDGE HALL:  You should focus your question on the questions --

23     the way that was specifically asked in cross-examination without trying

24     to set any context because we'll never finish.

25             MR. OLMSTED:

Page 5244

 1        Q.   Were you, Mr. Krzic, were you aware of the decision to create the

 2     Autonomous Region of Krajina in September of 1991?

 3        A.   Yes, of course, we learned about that.

 4        Q.   Was Banja Luka a member of this newly created ARK?

 5        A.   Not immediately.  Only after 15 days because in the first vote

 6     they were unable to push it through.

 7        Q.   Now, did the SDA and the non-Serb parties participate in the

 8     creation of this ARK?

 9        A.   We couldn't participate even if we had wanted to.  After the

10     statements given by the highest ranking officials of the SDS, I remember

11     Mr. Kupresanin's statement to the effect that all SAO Krajinas would be

12     united into a great Serbian state up to the border, the border of which

13     will be the line Karlobag, Cijena you know those stories and there was

14     even mention of Djevdjelija.  Before the establishment of the ZOBK and in

15     the process, we never gave our support.

16        Q.   Now, yesterday you were shown your own statement that was

17     recorded or reported in the "Glas" newspaper.  I think it's 1D03-0156.

18     And at the beginning of that statement, you talk about statements made by

19     Radoslav Vukic.  Can you tell us what political position Mr. Vukic held

20     around this time-period?

21        A.   Mr.  Vukic, as far as I know, was a member of the Executive Board

22     of the SDS from the very beginning.  Then at some stage he became the SDS

23     leader.  There was frequent rotation in high positions there.  I believe

24     even without Assembly sessions.  Then he was a member of the Crisis Staff

25     of Banja Luka on the regional staff and he was member of the Executive

Page 5245

 1     Board, I think it was called, of the RBK.  And then the director of the

 2     medical centre, that is to say all medical services.

 3        Q.   Were you aware that he was a co-ordinator for the Autonomous

 4     Region of Krajina?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, again I don't see how this comes out of

 6     the cross-examination, Your Honours.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, this let me have my five minutes.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  First of all, it's a leading question, it's not

 9     proper, and I don't believe that Mr. Vukic was at any point part of the

10     cross-examination in that respect.  Except his name was mentioned once.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Olmsted.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, it ties into again to the same issue.

13     This document was shown to him, if I'm given a little bit of discretion

14     for the next five minutes, I think I'll make it clear.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry again, it's a leading question, and this

17     document pertains only to the creation of these municipalities in the

18     municipality of Banja Luka.  And that was the point of the

19     cross-examination.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted, please so confine yourself to what

21     came out of cross-examination specifically.

22             MR. OLMSTED:

23        Q.   Why did the non-Serb political parties feel it was necessary to

24     form municipalities within Banja Luka that were not Serb dominated?

25        A.   In the vein hope that in that way they would be able to survive

Page 5246

 1     in that small territory the size of some 5 or 6 square kilometres, that

 2     they would be able to preserve their presence and survive.  Because what

 3     can you achieve if you have power in two municipalities?  They are the

 4     lowest level of government.  What can they do?  They can -- they have

 5     jurisdiction about demolishing houses, they have jurisdiction over the

 6     routes of roads to be built, that's more or less it.  Everything else was

 7     fictitious.  Municipalities have no political influence or responsibility

 8     at any higher level.

 9        Q.   What happened to this initiative to create new municipalities

10     within Banja Luka?

11        A.   A meeting was held which was attended by Serbs, Croats, and

12     Bosniaks on an equal footing.  And speaking about municipality Stari

13     Grad, the number of representatives in the Assembly, there were 17 Serbs,

14     13 Bosniaks, and 6 Croats, something along those lines.  There was a Serb

15     majority, as you can see, but not an absolute majority.  And that was the

16     headline in the newspapers too.  The municipality of Stari Grad -

17     miniature Bosnia.  But the initiative fell through because that should

18     have been the beginning of a subsequent procedure.  What was required was

19     the approval of the population of the local communities.  But then in the

20     next step, the approval of the municipality of Banja Luka was required

21     where the Serbs were the majority.  And the following step is this had to

22     be forwarded to the cabinet and then by parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23             So except for this initial proclamation, it was embryonic.  So it

24     had no effect.  And but you can tell by the names of the representatives

25     that all ethnicities took part in that.  It was at a time when that

Page 5247

 1     terrible nationalism hadn't yet gotten the better.

 2        Q.   Let me ask you one final question.  Were there ever any plans by

 3     the non-Serb political parties to implement this initiative through

 4     forceful take-over of Banja Luka?

 5        A.   But, sir, you are Prosecutor, but how can you come up with such a

 6     question?  It's totally unrelated.  There are plenty of arguments to

 7     corroborate that, I don't need to go into them.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, just please answer the question.  Was there any plans

 9     by the SDA or the other non-Serb parties to try to push this initiative

10     through using any kind of force?  Physical force.

11        A.   Before that I must correct you, not only non-Serb political

12     parties participated, there were also multiethnic parties with a Serb

13     domination, such as the SDP and the reformist party so you should

14     reformulate your question, but my answer would be no, there were only

15     verbal attempts.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  No further questions, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Krzic, for your attendance here and

18     assisting the Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness, and we wish

19     you a safe journey back to your home.  We take the adjournment now to

20     resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning in Courtroom I, I believe.  Yes.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

25                           January, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.