Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6051

 1                           Wednesday, 3 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 7     Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             May we have the appearances, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

11     assisted by Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

14     this morning.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon Your Honours.  For

16     Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic and Dragan Krgovic.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, just before the witness puts the

18     earphones on, can I just mention that -- at the end of this afternoon can

19     I mention two administrative matters which won't occupy very long, and

20     shouldn't, I don't think, involve an argument today.

21             Second, these:  Can I just give Your Honours a very, very brief

22     outline of Kljuc, because we're moving to a new municipality, and the

23     witness is going to be asked to look at some photographs and identify

24     things which relate to matters that happened.

25             The events in Kljuc are very largely covered at the moment by

Page 6052

 1     adjudicated facts which, of course, apply to Stanisic but not at the

 2     moment to Zupljanin.

 3             The events include two major killings.  The first on June the 1st

 4     of 1992 at the Velagici school in which inhabitants of villages had been

 5     taken and confined for a short period of time.  And on the 10th of July,

 6     Biljani school, again in which inhabitants of local villages had been

 7     taken to after the Prosecution say they'd been rounded up.

 8             We are not calling any evidence in relation to either of those

 9     killings because they are covered pretty completely at the moment by

10     adjudicated facts.

11             In addition to that, non-Serbs who had been rounded up were

12     confined in the police station and in the Nikola Mackic school in which

13     we say beatings took place.  Again, Your Honours.  There will be no

14     evidence about that because it's covered by adjudicated facts.

15             The witness you're about to hear, Mr. Egrlic, has testified in

16     both the Brdjanin and the Krajisnik cases.  He was, as you will hear, the

17     President of the Executive Board of the SDA in Kljuc.  And the other

18     Muslim party in Kljuc was the MBO, the Muslim Bosniak association --

19     organisation, which was headed by Omer Filipovic about whom you've also

20     heard.  The SDS was headed by Veljko Kondic or Jovo Banjac.  And his

21     relative, that is, say, Mr. Veljko Kondic -- Mr. Vinko Kondic, at the

22     relevant period was chief of the SJB.  You will not be hearing from

23     Mr. Vinko Kondic because he's presently standing trial in Sarajevo in the

24     state court.

25             Mr. Egrlic's evidence covers the events leading to the takeover,

Page 6053

 1     including a meeting with Stojan Zupljanin about which, although it's

 2     covered in his transcript, I'm going to ask for a little detail about.

 3     The SDS took over power in Kljuc on the 7th of May, and without any

 4     resistance at all at that stage.  There was an order issued for the

 5     surrender of all weapons, and violence really started on or about the

 6     27th of May when two Serb soldiers were killed at check-points which had

 7     been set up at the village of Pudin Han.  The non-Serb villages were

 8     attacked.  People were killed during the attacks, and those who survived

 9     were rounded up and imprisoned.

10             Mr. Egrlic, by the 27th of May, along with many other Muslim

11     inhabitants, had fled to the woods.  During of course of those events he

12     apparently managed to wound himself with his own pistol and was on his

13     way to seek medical assistance when he was arrested by the Bosnian Serb

14     police at a check-point.

15             He was taken to the Kljuc SJB.  The evidence in his transcript is

16     to the effect that he was beaten there, then taken to hospital, from

17     there to Stari Gradiska prison and from there to Manjaca together with

18     many, many of the other inhabitants of Kljuc, as Your Honours will have

19     seen.  And he remained in Manjaca until December of 1992.

20             Your Honour, that's a brief summary of the events relating to

21     Kljuc.  So if we can now perhaps deal with Mr. Egrlic's preliminaries.

22             JUDGE HALL:  I understand the Stanisic team may have had a

23     preliminary matter before the witness was called.

24             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  There is one matter.  We're doing it now,

25     although it could be done later.  It's in regards to the 92 ter package.

Page 6054

 1     We anticipate the witness will adopt his previous testimony from both

 2     Brdjanin and Krajisnik.  And that being done, you will admit his two

 3     transcripts and the documents on the 65 ter package.

 4             Now, there are approximately ten exhibits in total, that's our

 5     estimate, from those two trials which we would like to have admitted into

 6     the record, and we are proposing to do that by way of motion so that we

 7     can give you a cross-reference to the exhibits in the previous case so

 8     you can see the relevance, but they're linked to his testimony but

 9     they're not being offered by the Prosecution, and we would like to offer

10     them as part of a package to go along with his testimony.  And we propose

11     to do that by way of motion very soon.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  It would be helpful if you could indicate the ten

15     exhibits that you wish to have included before you begin your

16     cross-examination.

17             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  At this point, Your Honour, we may not even have

18     any cross-examination.  But these documents are -- were referred to

19     during his testimony in the previous trials.  Some questions were put by

20     the Prosecution, some by the Defence.  He will adopt those -- that

21     testimony and give the same answers today, he will likely say, and we say

22     fine.  We just want to have those ten documents in the record so that

23     you, when you evaluate the testimony, will have the full picture.  So the

24     Prosecution has made it's selection; we are proposing to make ours, and

25     it's about ten.  And if that being the case -- in fact there's no point

Page 6055

 1     in cross-examining this witness on those ten documents.  We accept what

 2     he said.  Thank you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So are you ready to start?

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon to you, sir.  Can you hear me?

 7                           WITNESS:  ASIM EGRLIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           [Witness testified via videolink]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  I can hear you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  As may have been explained to you, you are called to

12     give evidence as a witness in this trial which is taking place in

13     The Hague, and we're receiving your evidence by way of videolink.  Do we

14     understand correctly that you have testified previously in two trials?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I need then only remind you of the procedure

17     that is followed in terms of -- as far as you being a witness goes.  The

18     side calling you, in this case the Prosecution, would have questions of

19     you, and because of the mode in which you are being offered as a witness,

20     their questions would be somewhat abbreviated from how it otherwise would

21     have been.  After that, the side opposite, if they wish, that is both --

22     counsel for both accused persons, would have the right to ask you

23     questions.  The Prosecution could then re-examine, and the Court itself

24     may have questions of you.

25             I would begin by asking you to state your name for the record.

Page 6056

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Asim Egrlic is my name.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your date of birth?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 27 July 1952, in Kljuc.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  And I again for the second day in a row have

 5     forgotten to ask the Court Officer to administer the solemn declaration.

 6     If you would, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You may resume your seat.

10             Continuing with the introductory questions, what is your

11     profession?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE HALL:  I thought it was on.  I'll ask again.

14             What is your profession?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a degree in architecture,

16     and I'm engaged in design.

17             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosniak.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.

20             Yes, Ms. Korner.

21                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

22        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, good afternoon.  I don't know whether you can see me.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   It's been a long time since we met, but I would still recognise

25     you.  Right.  I don't think there's anything you can say to that.

Page 6057

 1             Can I first of all start by just establishing, please, that as

 2     you said, you testified in both cases -- two cases, that of the case

 3     against Brdjanin and Talic, and secondly, in the Krajisnik case.  Is that

 4     right?

 5        A.   That is right.

 6        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review your testimony in both

 7     of those cases?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And if asked those questions that you were asked on the last

10     occasion, in particular those in the Brdjanin case, would your answers

11     still be the same?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just going to ask you a little bit about some of

14     the matters that you were asked about in the other trials.

15             First, you told the Court that you were an architect, but were

16     you also, in 1990, president of the SDA party in Kljuc?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was there in fact another Muslim political party in Kljuc, the

19     MBO?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And was that headed by the late Omer Filipovic?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And finally, the SDS.  Who was the head of the SDS in Kljuc in

24     the 1990 elections?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness.

Page 6058

 1             MS. KORNER:

 2        Q.   I'm afraid you'll have to repeat your answer.  The interpreter

 3     didn't pick it up.

 4        A.   Veljko Kondic was the head of the SDS.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I want, I'm afraid, to do a rather torturous

 6     thing, which it is to go through a map and some photographs which you've

 7     had an opportunity to look at when you were seen in Sarajevo.

 8             Can we start, please, with the map which is behind divider, in

 9     your bundle, number 74.  65 ter number is 10236.09.

10             Right.  Now, Mr. Egrlic, this map shows the ethnic breakdown of

11     Kljuc effectively after the census or at the time of the census.  And are

12     these figures correct?  There was a small number of Croats there, 330.

13     18 -- 18.500 Serbs roughly, and 17.700 Muslims in the Kljuc municipality

14     at that time.  Would you agree that's correct?

15        A.   It's correct.

16        Q.   And the map shows really the breakdown of the various villages,

17     and it looks, and again this is very rough, but as though the Muslim

18     areas were largely congregated to the north of Kljuc town which is shown

19     in the middle and the Serb areas to the south and east?

20        A.   It's correct.

21        Q.   And is this also correct, that the town itself seems to have been

22     largely Serb?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear the witness

24     properly.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, there seems to be a problem here which

Page 6059

 1     is going to slow things down even more.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm very sorry, you're going to have to repeat your answer

 3     again.

 4        A.   As far as the town of Kljuc is concerned, the ethnic composition

 5     there was mixed, and Serbs may have had a bit of an advantage when it

 6     came to the number of inhabitants there.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.  In that case, that's all I want to ask you about

 8     that map.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

10     please.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

12             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P921, Your Honours.

14             MS. KORNER:  I'm so sorry.  I mislaid my note at the moment.

15        Q.   In a moment I'm going to ask you to look at some photographs of

16     the town and other areas, but there's one thing I forgot to ask you.  Who

17     was the chief of police in Kljuc in -- after the elections?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't understand what the

19     witness said.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Chief of police was Vinko Kondic.

21             MS. KORNER:  Just pause a minute.  Your Honours, I think we ought

22     to clear up what the problem is, otherwise this is going to take a long

23     time.  Why are the interpreters are having this difficulty?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Sometimes it's simply unintelligible what the

25     witness said.  The sound breaks, and we cannot understand what he said,

Page 6060

 1     and other times the sound is good.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If the experience from yesterday's testimony

 3     serves to any purpose, then I would suggest that the witness be

 4     instructed that he speaks directly down into the microphone on the table.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Well, let's see how we get on.

 6        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, it's not your fault, don't worry.  I'm afraid it's

 7     one of the problems.

 8             Next thing I want you to look, please, at is an overview of Kljuc

 9     which you will find behind divider 54.  It's an aerial photograph.  And

10     the 65 ter number is 10260.

11             MS. KORNER:  It might help to tilt it the other way.

12        Q.   All right.  So this is an aerial view taken last year.  If we go

13     to the centre of the photograph, we can see a building with a blue roof,

14     which we will see in close up in another photograph.  Are you able to

15     tell the Court what that is?

16        A.   The building in the centre with a blue roof is the police

17     station.

18        Q.   Right.  And I think we'll -- for the other buildings we'll look

19     at the close-up.

20             Sir, you testified last time that before you were arrested in --

21     on the 28th of May, you had taken to the woods.  Can we see those woods

22     anywhere in this photograph?

23        A.   I was taken to the SUP.  That's the police station.

24        Q.   Yes, I know that, but before you were, as I say -- as you were

25     caught and taken to the SUP, you'd left the town of Kljuc, hadn't you?

Page 6061

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2        Q.   And whereabouts were you?

 3        A.   I was with my family in the forest.  The family -- my family was

 4     expelled from our house just like other residents.

 5        Q.   Right.  And what I'm asking is whether it's --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Terribly sorry.  Your Honours, I'm not getting

 7     Ms. Korner on my earphones or any of the translators, and it's -- it's

 8     very hard for me to follow because I'm following what the witness is

 9     saying, and I can't hear the question.

10             I don't want to -- I don't want to interrupt you, Ms. Korner.

11     You can continue, but if this can be dealt with, please.  Thank you very

12     much.

13             MS. KORNER:  I thought you were going to say it was a blessed

14     relief.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I meant to say that.

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   Sir, I'm sorry for that small digression.  One of the Defence

18     counsels is having a problem hearing you.

19             But, yes, it is the forest.  Is one able to see the forest where

20     you were with your family in this photograph?  That's all I was asking.

21        A.   No, one cannot see it.  It's in the broader area to the

22     north-east of the town.

23        Q.   Well, then don't worry about that.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that photograph be admitted and

25     marked, please.

Page 6062

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, as Exhibit P922.

 3             MS. KORNER:

 4        Q.   And now can you go in on a closer view, and that's in divider 75,

 5     the last one in the bundle, and it's 10265.16.

 6             Right.  Thank you.  Now, I think we can see a closer view there

 7     of what you've already identified as the SUP with the blue roof in the

 8     middle of that photograph.  Can you point out to us, please, next where

 9     the courthouse was in Kljuc?  Now -- yes.  Can you -- I think you have to

10     mark it with a pen, and I don't know -- I can't remember what happens.

11     Do we hold it up, or what?

12        A.   The courthouse was across from the police station, here.

13        Q.   And then if we can hold it up to the camera just so that the

14     Judges can see and everybody.  Is it possible to see that?  No.  The

15     colour -- oh, I see, yes.

16             MS. KORNER:  Do Your Honours see that?  There's a circle.  It's

17     not terribly clear.  Towards the left-hand side of the picture, as it's

18     being shown.  The colours don't seem to work like this, which doesn't

19     help much.  But if you look, there's the -- the SUP is just to the right

20     of where the -- it's being held up, and then there's a circle round the

21     building opposite.  Do you see that?  No.

22        Q.   All right.  Then I think if you -- sir, thank you very much.

23             MS. KORNER:  What we'll do is we'll mark it.  It will come back.

24     But I can indicate because I've got the advantage of seeing this before.

25             Your Honours, could we have the photograph back on the screen

Page 6063

 1     that Your Honours were looking at.  Is it on the screen?

 2             Your Honours, what he marked and where it is, it's opposite the

 3     blue building which is the SUP.  There's a building with a roof there,

 4     which is being indicated at the moment.  That's where the courthouse was.

 5             I said this was going to be slow.

 6        Q.   Nest, could you indicate, please, where the Nikola Mackic school

 7     is.

 8        A.   Here.

 9        Q.   Yes.  All right.  Can we have --

10             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, if nobody minds, I will actually just

11     tell Your Honours.  You can see it now, yes.  It's the building.  There's

12     a sort of white what looks like a football pitch, and that's the

13     Nikola Mackic school.  Thank you.

14        Q.   And finally, we can see in the middle of the photograph, there's

15     a square building, part of which appears to have red roofs and part of

16     which appears to be a grey roof.  Can you just the Court what that is.

17        A.   That's the municipal building and the building of the

18     Municipal Council.

19        Q.   And was there a TO building in Kljuc?

20        A.   Yes.  This wing to the right behind the municipal building is the

21     building of the TO.

22        Q.   So it's all effectively part of the same complex, the municipal

23     building and the TO; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

25        Q.   The photograph, this photograph, effectively shows two roads, one

Page 6064

 1     at the back of all the buildings and one that we can see in the front.

 2     In 1992, did the road at the back exist?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, sir -- Mr. Egrlic.  You've been asked to repeat again.

 6        A.   There was a road behind the building.

 7        Q.   After the Serbs took power on the 7th of May, were roadblocks set

 8     up?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were -- were roadblocks set up anywhere that we can see within

11     that photograph?

12        A.   Yes.  Here at the crossroads between the road which links up the

13     police building and the main street.

14        Q.   Again, sir, can you mark it?  And again, hold it up to the

15     camera.  Yes.  I think we can see where that is.  Yes.  Just to the right

16     of the municipal building as one looks at the photograph.

17             Yes.  Thank you very much.  That's all I'll ask you about that

18     photograph.

19             MS. KORNER:  Can that be marked -- admitted and marked, please.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner, but I have a question.  The --

21     inasmuch as the -- it's the same print that has been used for, I think,

22     now four indications by the witness, he wasn't asked to number them, he

23     was just asked to circle them.  When it comes back to us, how are we

24     going to remember what is what?

25             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

Page 6065

 1        Q.   Sir, you've asked -- you've been asked to mark this before, but

 2     can you mark by the -- what did I ask you first --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Just a moment.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  I'm sorry, please continue.

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   The first thing that you identified was the court building.

 8     Could you mark that as number 1.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Then the second thing you identified -- thing, building, was the

11     Nikola Mackic -- Mackic school.  Could you mark that with 2.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   The -- the municipal building with the TO as 3.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And then the roadblock as 4.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   And thank you very much, sir.  And that --

18             MS. KORNER:  May that -- oh, it has already been marked and

19     admitted, hasn't it.  No.  Okay.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P923.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   And can you now move to your divider 56, please, because we can

23     see another shot but from another angle.  And that's 65 ter 10262.

24             Now, are we now looking again at the sort of centre of Kljuc town

25     but from the other side of the -- effectively the municipal building,

Page 6066

 1     which again is in the centre?  Is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Yes.  I don't think we need to go any further than that.

 4             MS. KORNER:  So, Your Honours, may I simply ask that be admitted

 5     and marked.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P924, Your Honours.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   I now want you to look, please, at some other photographs, this

10     time of the Nikola Mackic school, starting with divider 50, and that is

11     65 ter 2185.

12             Now, this is a photograph that was -- that was taken a little bit

13     nearer the time, Mr. Egrlic.  In fact, as you can see from the legend, on

14     the 21st of July, 2001.  Do you recognise that as the Nikola Mackic

15     school?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And did it look -- this is 2001.  Did it look much the same or

18     was it different in 1992?

19        A.   It looked the same.

20        Q.   All right.  And if you go to --

21             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours.  May that be admitted, please,

22     and marked.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P925, Your Honours.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 6067

 1        Q.   Can you go now, please, to divider 60, which is 65 ter 10265.02.

 2        A.   This is a photograph of the school with the school playground.

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, unfortunately, is not on our screen yet, but

 4     thank you, sir.  Yes.

 5             I don't think you were taken there, sir, but are you aware that

 6     people from -- who had been rounded up, non-Serbs, were kept in -- in

 7     those premises?

 8        A.   I know that they were at the school and at the gym right next to

 9     the school.

10        Q.   And then I think one more photograph, please, of that.  Can you

11     look --

12             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  May that be admitted and marked,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P926, Your Honours.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   Your divider 61, Exhibit 10265.3.  And what are we looking at

19     there, Mr. Egrlic?

20        A.   We can see the gym hall here next to the school building.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted.

23     Admitted and marked.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P927, Your Honours.

Page 6068

 1             MS. KORNER:

 2        Q.   Next can we have a look at a couple of photographs of the SJB

 3     building, please.  For you, divider 51.  And the 65 ter is 2184.

 4             Mr. Egrlic, can you identify that as -- as the SJB building, the

 5     front of it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You told the -- the Trial Chambers in both the Brdjanin and the

 8     Krajisnik case that when you were taken to the SUP you were beaten.  In

 9     fact, beaten outside.  Can you show the Court whereabouts you were

10     beaten.

11        A.   Here at these stairs.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, just in case anybody wants to know,

14     that is dealt with in the Brdjanin transcript at page 10559 and there on.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mrs. Korner, is this the building that on the

16     first photos we saw had a blue roof?

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I should -- I better ask the witness, but I

18     think it is.

19        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, in this photograph in 2001, it had this colour roof.

20     In the photographs that we saw taken last year, it had a blue roof.  Is

21     this one and the same building there?

22        A.   Yes.  It's the same building, but the roof was changed.

23        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  I saw Mr. Pantelic.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic.

Page 6069

 1             MR. PANTELIC: [Microphone not activated]

 2             MS. KORNER:  Sorry -- I lost my note again.  Oh, Your Honours,

 3     may that be admitted and marked, please.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P928, Your Honours.

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   And if you go to your divider 59.  And it's 10265.1, 65 ter

 8     number.

 9             Is that the -- the same building or part of the same building?

10        A.   Yes, but from a different angle.

11        Q.   Yes.  We can see the stairs there are to the left of the

12     photograph.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

15             MS. KORNER:  Could that be marked and admitted.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P929, Your Honours.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   And finally, can I ask you -- within Kljuc town, can I ask you to

20     look, please, at divider 62.  And 10265.4.

21             And perhaps you can tell us, Mr. Egrlic, what that particularly

22     repellent coloured building is.

23        A.   In this building there are a number of premises.  There is the

24     conference hall of the Municipal Council, part of the TO premises were

25     housed here, and also there are some additional offices.

Page 6070

 1        Q.   So that's part of that square complex that we saw from the air;

 2     is that right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   And if one looks at the left of the photograph, is -- is that the

 5     part of the school that we're looking at?

 6        A.   We see part of the school and the gym.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P930, Your Honours.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   Sir, now I want to take you out of Kljuc town, please, for some

14     photographs.  Could you look at divider 52, and that is 10258.

15             Sir, can you tell us what we're looking at there in the middle of

16     the picture -- photograph?

17        A.   We see the Biljani settlement here, and then in the centre of the

18     photograph is an a graveyard with a mosque and culture hall.

19        Q.   In 1992, was that mosque there?

20        A.   No.  There was a local school in this spot.

21        Q.   And what does the graveyard represent?  Well, that's not quite

22     the way of putting it.  The people who are buried in that graveyard next

23     to the mosque, where are they from?

24        A.   They were found in a mass grave in Biljani.  They were exhumated

25     and reburied.

Page 6071

 1        Q.   And is it known where they met their deaths, the people who are

 2     buried there?

 3        A.   They were shot to death in the settlement here, mostly around the

 4     school building, in front of that building.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may --

 7        Q.   And sorry, the road we can see going off to the right, is that

 8     the road that leads towards Kljuc town?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P931, Your Honours.

14             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

15        Q.   And then can we go to just a closer view of that.  It's

16     divider 53 for you, Mr. Egrlic, and it's 10259.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, all those photographs are part of the

18     sequence that were taken last year.  And I think it's clearer there.  We

19     can see the graveyards.  Yes.  Thank you.

20             Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked, please.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P932, Your Honours.

23             MS. KORNER:  Right.

24        Q.   Next can you go, please, in your bundle to divider 58, 10264,

25     please.

Page 6072

 1             Can you tell us, please -- tell the Court, please, Mr. Egrlic,

 2     what's shown in this overview.

 3        A.   Velagici.  That's what is shown in the overview.  You can see the

 4     crossroads of a road leading to Laniste, Bosanski Petrovac, and the

 5     left-hand side road leads towards Kljuc.

 6        Q.   So going towards the right-hand side of the photograph is the

 7     lows to Laniste; is that right?  Did you hear that, sir?

 8        A.   I don't have interpretation.  I did not hear the interpretation.

 9        Q.   Let me try again.  Road to -- as it goes off the right of the

10     photograph, does that road go to Laniste?

11        A.   The road to Laniste is to the right from the central part of the

12     photo, from the crossroads.

13        Q.   All right.  And Velagici, we -- and -- sorry, before -- my fault.

14     Forget that.

15             Were units of the -- what was to become the Bosnian Serb army,

16     the VRS, stationed in Laniste during the May period?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I don't -- I don't think you can help.  Can you tell us which

19     unit in particular?

20        A.   I know that some elements of units arrived from Knin, from the

21     Knin Corps, and we were replenished with local Serb population.

22        Q.   What about the 60th Partisan Brigade?  Did you ever come across

23     them at all?  Led by Colonel Basara.

24        A.   The 6th Krajina Brigade occupied Kljuc -- occupied Kljuc on the

25     7th of May.

Page 6073

 1        Q.   Thank you very much.  The 6th Krajina Brigade.  That's my fault.

 2     It was part of the 60th Partisan.

 3             Can you tell us, sir, in the middle of the photograph where the

 4     crossroads is, what are we looking at there, the squared-off bit?

 5        A.   We can see a cemetery which was created after the exhumation of

 6     Bosniaks who had been killed and buried in the Laniste 2 mass grave.

 7        Q.   All right.  And where had those people been killed?  Was it --

 8     was that established?

 9        A.   They were executed by the local school which used to stand in the

10     place of the cemetery.

11        Q.   All right.  Yes.  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P933, Your Honours.

15             MS. KORNER:

16        Q.   Can we then go -- we can look at a -- sorry, I've made a -- yes.

17     To 57, I think it is.  That's a closer view of it.  Yes, 57.  Sorry,

18     which is 10263.  And there, I think, we can see a closer view of the

19     crossroads, and in particular, the graveyard.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted,

21     please.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P934, Your Honours.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, I don't think we need bother.

25        Q.   Now, I'd like you to have a look at a whole series of

Page 6074

 1     photographs, please, sir, which I'll have up on the screen one after the

 2     other.  They start, please, in your binder at 66.  And it's 10265.8.

 3             Now, I'm not sure how clear these are going to be, but hopefully

 4     clear enough.

 5             Yes.  This is a whole series of photographs taken at the Velagici

 6     cemetery.  First of all, sir, there we can see two people named on the

 7     graves.  Not a great picture, I agree, but -- in fact, I contact read

 8     that one.  But firstly did you know either of those two people?

 9        A.   I didn't know them, but the family names --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not hear the witness

11     properly.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   Sorry, you'll have to say it again, sir, by leaning into the

14     microphone.  I don't know whether it's possible -- sorry.  You said you

15     knew the families of these --

16        A.   I didn't know them personally, no.

17        Q.   Just -- your copy may be better than what we can see on the

18     screen, but does the first gravestone show that it was 1912 to 1992 and

19     the second 1899 to 1992?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can that be admitted and marked, please,

23     Your Honour.

24             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise.  Your Honours, maybe my learned

25     friend Ms. Korner could ask Mr. Egrlic, in order to spare time for

Page 6075

 1     cross-examination in light of judicial economy, just to read what is --

 2     what are the other terms here on -- on this yard -- stone, simply for the

 3     record.  Thank you.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.

 5        Q.   I think you're being asked to read what else is on that stone.

 6     Are you able to do that, sir?  The photographs aren't great, I'm afraid,

 7     or the copies aren't great.

 8        A.   Arif Pajic and Junuz Pajic.  That's all I can see.  There are

 9     some other gravestones, but I can't see anything on them.

10        Q.   Yes.  Don't worry about the names.  There's something written

11     above the names.  I think that's what you're being asked about.

12             It may be clearer on the next photographs.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I ask that this one be marked and

14     admitted.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

16             MS. KORNER:  And we will have a look.  Can you look now --

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P935, Your Honours.

18             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Can you look now behind number 67 for you, and it's 10265.9.

20             Right.  First question is can you read what the word is above the

21     name of Mr. Junuz?

22        A.   It says Sehid.

23        Q.   Which means?  What does that mean?

24        A.   It's a title given to those who were killed as innocent victims.

25        Q.   All right.  And again I think we can see he was born in 1899.

Page 6076

 1     Did you know him?

 2        A.   No, I didn't.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P936, Your Honours.

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   The one behind divider 68.  10265.10.  Mr. Arif Pajic.  Did you

 9     know him?

10        A.   No, I didn't.

11             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we have that, please, admitted and

12     marked and then --

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, and next --

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P937, Your Honours.

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   And next behind divider 69.  10265.11.  Selva Draganovic.  Did

18     you know -- is that a him or a her?  Sorry, did you know him or her?

19     Draganovic.

20        A.   I knew that woman, yes.

21        Q.   Did -- as far as you know, did she have anything to do with armed

22     resistance to the Bosnian Serbs?

23        A.   No, nothing whatsoever.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

Page 6077

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P938, Your Honour.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   And very quickly then.  The last two are at, for you, divider 70,

 6     10265.2.  Actually, it's three, last three.  Three more.  .12, sorry,

 7     what did I say?  .12, yes.

 8             Did you -- sir, did you know him, Mr. Nezic?

 9        A.   I did not.

10             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Your Honours, may that be admitted and

11     marked?

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P939, Your Honours.

14             MS. KORNER:

15        Q.   Then number 71.  10265.13.  This was a five-year-old child, it

16     looks like, Mr. -- Mr. Becirevic.  Did you know the Becirevic family or

17     this child?

18        A.   I didn't know the child, but I'm familiar with the family name.

19     It does ring a bell.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

21     please.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As P940, Your Honours.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   Next one, please, number 72.  10265.14.  Mina Ticevic.  Is that a

Page 6078

 1     man or a woman?

 2        A.   A woman.

 3        Q.   Did you know her?

 4        A.   I didn't know her, but I know the Ticevic family.

 5        Q.   And thank you very much.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 7     please.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P941, Your Honours.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   And this is the final photograph behind number -- divider 73, and

12     it's 10265.15.  Another Draganovic, Mr. Egrlic.  Did you know him,

13     Ibrahim Draganovic?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Who was 70-odd, 71, at the time of his death.  Do you know how he

16     came by his death?

17        A.   I don't.

18        Q.   All right.  Yes.

19             MS. KORNER:  May that be marked and admitted, Your Honours,

20     please.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P942, Your Honours.

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   I've just got two more photographs that I want to -- three,

25     maybe, ask you about.  Can you go to divider 63, for you, please, and

Page 6079

 1     it's 10265.5.

 2             Yes.  Can you -- tell us what we're looking at there.

 3        A.   I believe that this is one part of Pudin Han settlement.

 4        Q.   If you can't answer this question, Mr. Egrlic, say so straight

 5     away:  Do you know where the check-point was, where the guards had been

 6     set up before the incident that took place on the 27th of May?  If you

 7     don't, say so straight away.

 8        A.   I know in the town of Kljuc and in Velagici, I know about those

 9     check-points, and I know that there was one at the crossroads of a road

10     leading to Sanski Most.

11        Q.   All right.  So you're not able to say in relation to Pudin Han

12     where the village guards were stationed?

13        A.   I'm not sure that we understand each other.  I thought that you

14     were asking me about police check-points, actually.

15        Q.   I want to know if you're able to identify the point -- we know

16     that there was an incident when two Serbs were killed around Pudin Han.

17     Are you able to identify in this photograph where that was?

18        A.   It's not shown in the photo, but it would have been to the right

19     from the part depicted in the photo.

20        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be -- may that be marked and

22     admitted.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P943, Your Honours.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 6080

 1        Q.   Now, finally, the photographs that we saw, the modern ones, of

 2     course the whole town has been rebuilt.  When you came back to Kljuc in

 3     1996, I think it was, what did the town look like?

 4        A.   It was in very bad state of repair.  Most of the houses had been

 5     torched.  They didn't have roofs.  It -- it looked destroyed.

 6        Q.   I wanted to show you, then, two photographs that were at least

 7     taken nearer to the time.  Could you first of all look at divider 65.

 8     Oh, sorry.  I should have said it's 10265.7.

 9             Now, that was taken in 2001.  Are you able to identify the

10     building at all?

11        A.   This is the building in the local commune of --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name.

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   Could you say the name again, please, Mr. Egrlic.

15        A.   This is the building in the local commune of Pec on the road from

16     Kljuc to Sanski Most.

17        Q.   And what was the nationality of the -- the people who lived in

18     that commune?

19        A.   The population was of mixed ethnicity.

20        Q.   You say -- do you know exactly what that building was before it

21     was destroyed like that?

22        A.   This used to be a shop or a store, and the building also housed

23     the premises of the local commune.

24        Q.   And who was the owner of the store?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 6081

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 2     please.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P944, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   When you came back to Kljuc in --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, if you're going on to something else,

 8     this is the time for the break.

 9             MS. KORNER:  I'm just going to finish this.  And then I'm going

10     to finish this topic because that's the end of the photographs.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   When you came back to Kljuc in 1996, were any of the mosques

14     still standing?

15        A.   All of them had been destroyed.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Egrlic.  I think there's going to be a

17     break now.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We will resume in 20 minutes.

19                           --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, I thought we'd done with maps and photographs, but I

23     just realised that I think we need to have one more map.  Could we have

24     the one that's behind divider 26, please.  3113.  Just so we can ...

25             Yes.  That -- is that right?  It just -- that shows the -- Kljuc

Page 6082

 1     again, but this time we can see the municipalities that bordered with it,

 2     namely Bosanski Petrovac, Sanski Most, Banja Luka, and then we needn't

 3     bother about Drvar and Mrkonjic Grad.

 4             Yes.  And that's just actually one further thing that I ought

 5     perhaps to ask you -- actually, no, I won't.  It's on another map.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that simply be admitted and

 7     marked, please.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P945, Your Honours.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Egrlic, I'm just going to ask you some questions now for

12     the remainder of the time about some documents that relate to matters and

13     events that you described when you gave evidence last time.

14             First of all, you told us about some of the leaders of the

15     political parties and about Vinko Kondic as chief of the SJB.  Are you

16     aware that Vinko Kondic is presently standing trial in the state court of

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  There's a man called Jovo Banjac who figures in some

20     of these documents.  What was his position in 1992?

21        A.   He was the president of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc.

22        Q.   And of what nationality was he?

23        A.   A Serb.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you talked in your testimony in the Brdjanin

25     case --

Page 6083

 1             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, this is page -- at page 10527 and

 2     the following pages.

 3        Q.   -- about the attempts to join the Autonomous Region of Krajina

 4     and its predecessor, the community of municipalities.  I want you to have

 5     a look, please, first of all at a document which is 65 ter 778, and it's

 6     divider 27 for Mr. Egrlic.

 7             Now, this is a document which doesn't have a date, but it refers

 8     to the founding of the -- or the meeting held on the 10th of April, 1991,

 9     by the Municipal Assembly, that it would remain in the Banja Luka

10     community of municipalities, and then it talks about the earlier decision

11     regarding "The Kljuc municipality is hereby confirmed."

12             Are you able to recognise the stamp and the signature?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And it says -- it's typed "Jovo Banjac."  So you recognise his

15     signature, do you?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And I don't want to go into this because you dealt with this

18     extensively in your testimony, but effectively I think you, the SDA, and

19     the MBO, objected to -- to the joining of this -- of Kljuc to this

20     particular Banja Luka community of municipalities and then the Autonomous

21     Region of Krajina.  Can you just very briefly tell the Court what the

22     objection was.

23        A.   We understood that this was a para-state creation.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand the rest of

25     the answer.

Page 6084

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then we believed that this

 2     would not lead to equal rights of all the nations living in that area.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   I'm so sorry, Mr. Egrlic.  Again it was the problem they didn't

 6     hear you.  Could you repeat the full answer.  You said you believed this

 7     was a para-state creation.

 8        A.   Yes.  It was an anti-constitutional creation.  It was a

 9     para-state creation in the territory of an internationally recognised

10     country, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11        Q.   And by "para-state," can you just explain what you mean again

12     briefly.

13        A.   What I mean is that given all the elements, that part of the

14     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina appeared to be a state, was a

15     state-like creation with all its organs and that it was contrary to the

16     constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that it could not be accepted

17     for that reason.

18        Q.   And you also said it -- you also believed it wouldn't lead to the

19     equal rights of all nations.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honours, may that be marked -- admitted

21     and marked.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P946, Your Honours.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 6085

 1        Q.   And then can you have a quick look, please, at 65 ter 785.

 2     Divider 31 for you.

 3             And again, can you identify the signature of Jovo Banjac?  It

 4     seems to be the formal commitment of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked

 7     as well, please.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P947, Your Honours.

10             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Next I want to move to the events of May the 7th and those that

12     preceded it.  You told the Court when you testified before about the

13     changes in the insignia of the police, the fact that Serbian flags flew

14     over the Municipal Assembly on May the 7th, and you also told the Court

15     that before that you and others had had a meeting in Banja Luka with

16     Stojan Zupljanin.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'll just turn up the page of the

18     transcript for the note.  Yes.  It's page -- in the Brdjanin transcript,

19     page 10549 and following.

20        Q.   Now, you described to the Court in the Brdjanin case that you;

21     Mr. Omer Filipovic; Mr. Banjac; and the two Kondics, Vinko and Veljko,

22     went to Banja Luka to see Zupljanin about the changes in the insignia of

23     the police.

24             Can you just give us, please, a little bit more detail of that

25     meeting.  First of all, in order to go to Banja Luka, did you have to

Page 6086

 1     pass the Manjaca training grounds?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And when you passed them, what was happening that you could see?

 4        A.   There were check-points and one couldn't pass through without an

 5     ID or without being escorted.

 6        Q.   And who was manning the check-points?

 7        A.   Well, whether it was the police or the army, they wore

 8     multi-colour camouflage uniforms.

 9        Q.   When you passed Manjaca itself, was anything actually happening

10     on those training grounds that you were able to see?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Egrlic, you're being asked to repeat the answer.  They

14     didn't catch it again.

15        A.   I wasn't paying attention to what was going on the training

16     grounds, so I couldn't see anything really.

17        Q.   Now, during the course of your discussions with Mr. Zupljanin,

18     did he say anything to you and the others about his opinion of Bosniaks

19     or Muslims?

20        A.   Well, when it came to the change of insignia, that it was a fait

21     accompli, that it was a concluded matter and not to be discussed any

22     more.  And that those changes would take place, and that police members

23     would start wearing new insignia instead of the old insignia and that the

24     new insignia would have the Serbian tricolour flag.  He even gave us

25     three berets for us to see what they looked like.  And the policemen who

Page 6087

 1     were Bosniaks refused to accept such uniforms, and he said that it wasn't

 2     really polite of them to do that, and the meeting concluded.  It wasn't a

 3     successful meeting.

 4        Q.   No.  Other than about what was going to happen with uniforms, did

 5     he say anything about the relationship between Bosniaks and Serbs?

 6        A.   It was really a jocular conversation between him and

 7     Omer Filipovic.  He claimed that Filipovic was really a descendant of

 8     some Filip, and this is how they ended up with that last name.  There was

 9     also discussion of how Bosniaks were really part of a Serbian nation, how

10     they were really originally Serbs.

11        Q.   All right.  That's all I want to ask you about that meeting

12     additional to what you've already said about it.

13             Did you come to hear about a Crisis Staff being set up in Kljuc?

14     And I'm talking now about before May the 7th.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And I'm talking about now a Crisis Staff from the SDS.

17        A.   Yes.  I heard of it.

18        Q.   I just want you to have a look for a moment, please, then at one

19     of the documents that I think was admitted as part of your package.

20             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honour, I should have marked this, and

21     I've just not done that.  No.  Wait a minute.  Sorry.  It's not part of

22     the package.  It's -- would Your Honour give me one moment while I just

23     check it before I waste time on the booklet.

24             No.  Forget that.  I'm sorry, Your Honour, because it -- to find

25     the document which was a mistake.

Page 6088

 1        Q.   All right.  Can I now move, please, to the -- what happened on

 2     the 7th of May and after the 7th of May.  And you dealt with that in your

 3     testimony in Brdjanin at pages 10559, following.

 4             Now, was there -- after the insignia had changed and the Serbs

 5     took over, was there a call that weapons should be surrendered?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And how was that announcement made?

 8        A.   It was announced on the radio.

 9        Q.   Was that immediately after May the 7th or later?

10        A.   Somewhat later, some 10 to 15 days later or thereabouts.

11        Q.   I'm going to ask you to look then, please, at a series of

12     documents that relate to what happened on or around the 27th of May.

13             By the 27th of May, where were you?  Were you still in the town,

14     or had you, by that stage, left?

15        A.   I was in the town until the 7th of May.  But after the 7th of May

16     I was no longer there because the army had entered the town, the

17     6th Krajina Brigade.  They took up all important locations,

18     intersections.  They introduced a curfew.  One couldn't move about.  So I

19     stopped going into town.

20        Q.   I want to ask you, then, in relation to the curfew and the rest,

21     and you couldn't move around, could you look please at the document

22     behind divider 34, and it's 65 ter 800.

23             This is an order issued on the 27th of May by the Crisis Staff,

24     signed by Mr. Banjac.  Again, can you identify his signature?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6089

 1        Q.   And it says:

 2             "Citizens are prohibited from moving ... without special

 3     permission from the Kljuc Public Security Station."

 4             Were you aware of that order?

 5        A.   I knew of it.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 7     please.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P948, Your Honour.

10             MS. KORNER:  And could we have 65 ter 801, please.

11        Q.   And it's divider 35 for you.

12             This is obviously the minutes, we can see, handwritten of the

13     Crisis Staff meeting of the 27th of May, which talks about the -- first

14     that "the legitimacy of the decisions of the autonomous region

15     Crisis Staff are affirmed."

16             And then number 3:

17             "By June the 1st, 1992, remove all non-Serbian personnel from

18     positions which allow independent decision-making and securing property."

19             Item 10:

20             "The relationship of the military ... to the civilian ... that

21     the military will execute the orders of the civilian ... while the

22     civilian authorities will not interfere with the way these orders are

23     carried out."

24             And then finally on this that I want to ask you about.  Item 15:

25             "Suspend --" oh, yes, sorry.  For the screen, if that's what the

Page 6090

 1     accused are looking at, that's on the third page.  Yes.

 2             "Suspend Osman Avdic, Zeljko Bakovic, Kapetanovic, employees of

 3     the Municipal Council for national defence immediately, and then

 4     authorise Tihomir Dakic and others to find a solutions to fill the

 5     vacancies."

 6             First, did you know the first three people who were named there?

 7        A.   I did.  Avdic, Osman used to work at the Secretariat for National

 8     Defence.  Later on he was found shot dead together with other citizens in

 9     the Biljani local commune.

10             Zeljko, an ethnic Croat, I used to know him too.

11        Q.   Right.  And who was Tihomir Dakic?  Did you know him?

12        A.   Yes.  He was vice-president of the Executive Board of the

13     Municipal Assembly.

14        Q.   And -- and what nationality was he?

15        A.   A Serb.

16        Q.   So he was your vice-president, was he, when you were president of

17     the Executive Board?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

21     please.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P949, Your Honours.

24             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Could you, sir, go back in the binder, for you, to number 32, I

Page 6091

 1     think it is.  Yes.  And it's -- sorry.  It's 65 ter 1106.

 2             Now, the date on this appears to be the 3rd of February, 1992,

 3     but from the context I'm not sure that can be right, but it reads that:

 4             "From the beginning of the war to today, the Serbian armed

 5     forces, conducting fast and energetic operations, have completely broken

 6     up the Muslim combat formations ..."

 7             It then goes on to say after a bit of "hardened extremists"

 8     verbiage:

 9             "... we again call on the Muslim people to hand over their

10     remaining weapons and to help capture and happened hand over these

11     lunatics," and so on and so forth.

12             Did you hear a radio announcement around this time along those

13     lines?  And when I say "this time," I don't mean February 1992, I mean

14     around May of 1992.

15        A.   This reflects or corresponds to the period of June more than

16     anything.

17        Q.   Yes.  Well, that's what I thought about the date.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

20             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P950, Your Honours.

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   And then finally on this topic could you have a look, please, at

24     the document behind divider 36 for you, and it's 803, 65 ter 803.

25             This again is the Crisis Staff issuing an order this time the

Page 6092

 1     following day, 28th of May, calling on all citizens who own illegally

 2     acquired weapons to hand them over.  And then in item 2:

 3             "The Kljuc municipality Crisis Staff orders members of Muslim

 4     nationality from the Ramici and Krasulje areas to hand over those

 5     responsible for yesterday's crime against the deputy commander of the

 6     police station."

 7             Do you know what that refers to in paragraph 2?

 8        A.   In the local commune of Krasulje, the local police commander from

 9     Kljuc was killed, and I suppose that the reference is to that event.

10        Q.   And do you know the -- do you know personally the circumstances

11     in which he came to be killed?

12        A.   I know from what I heard.  I heard that the manoeuvre police --

13     platoon of the police started seizing weapons in the village of Krasulje

14     and that they opened fire on the village guards.  The fire was returned,

15     and that's -- the commander of the police station got killed.

16        Q.   Item 4:

17             "We ... order citizens of Muslim nationality from the Egrlic and

18     Pudin Han areas to hand over those responsible for the attack on unarmed

19     soldiers who were in an organised transport from Knin to Banja Luka."

20             Do you know to what that refers?

21        A.   I also know that in the territory of Pudin Han an incident took

22     place.  The troops that were transported by lorries opened fire on the

23     settlement and the mosque in Pudin Han, and then in the Busija sector

24     fire was returned, and that resulted in an armed incident, or that was

25     the armed incident in question.

Page 6093

 1        Q.   Right.  Then they call upon Omer Filipovic to surrender.  Then

 2     the White Eagles and the armed forces who have returned from the

 3     battle-field are ordered to put themselves under the command of the

 4     30th division.  And then finally 7:

 5             "All citizens of Muslim nationality from the Velagici local

 6     commune and part of the Kljuc local commune ... who are currently in the

 7     combat action zone and who want peace are hereby ordered to gather at the

 8     SIP, the timber processing company, by 1.00."

 9             Do you know what happened?

10        A.   I am not receiving any interpretation.  I can't hear a thing.

11        Q.   Item -- I won't read the paragraph again, Mr. Egrlic.  In

12     paragraph 7 the Muslim nationality -- persons of Muslim nationality are

13     ordered to gather at the timber processing company.  Did you understand

14     what --

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner.  I see the

16     witness is shaking his head.

17             MS. KORNER:  He still can't hear?

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I guess he's not receiving any interpretation.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   Sir, do you -- can you hear?  No.  Can you hear me saying,

21     "Paragraph 7 of the document"?  No.  We appear to have a technical hitch

22     at the moment.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE HALL:  I'm advised that instead of rising we should just

25     hang on for a few minutes and see what happens.

Page 6094

 1             Can you hear me?  This is a test.  Am I coming through?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear anything.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  We're going to have to take a break.

 4                           --- Break taken at 4.39 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 4.56 p.m.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  As we resume, for those of you who might be curious,

 7     notwithstanding these unintended breaks caused by technical problems, it

 8     would be simpler, nevertheless, to take the usual breaks at the expected

 9     times.  So at 5.20, we will take the break.  Yes.  Thank you.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, can you now hear me?

12        A.   Yes, I can.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I just was asking you about paragraph 7 of this

14     document that we were looking at ordering Muslim citizens to go to the

15     timber processing company.  Do you know if people went there?

16        A.   Yes, they did.

17        Q.   Do you know what happened to those people who went there?

18        A.   There were several places where people were collected.  One was a

19     warehouse in SIP.  Another one was the school Nikola Mackic in Kljuc, and

20     the football stadium.  That's where they perform some checks,

21     interrogations, and then they were transported --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear where.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And some were returned home.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   The interpreter didn't catch where you said they were transported

Page 6095

 1     to.

 2        A.   From the places that were designated as collection points and

 3     where they interrogated people, and from there people were sent to

 4     Manjaca camp.

 5        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Yes.  That's all I want to ask you about

 6     this document.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit P951.

11             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm little bit confused.  Because the question was,

12     Did the witness know?  How the witness can know, if he wasn't there?

13     What is the source of his information about these documents?  That's --

14             MS. KORNER:

15        Q.   You, yourself, were taken to Manjaca.  Were there other inmates

16     of Manjaca there?  Sorry, that's a bad question.  Forget that.

17             Did you talk to other people who had been brought to Manjaca?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was it those people who told you from where they had come when

20     they were sent to Manjaca?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Can I then move fairly swiftly - because

23     I'm afraid we're running out of time --

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, you have 20 minutes left, Ms. Korner.

25             MS. KORNER:  I've just been reminded of that.

Page 6096

 1        Q.   -- to the question of dismissals.  I want you to look at a couple

 2     of other documents, please.  First of all, could we have a look at

 3     divider 30.  Oh, sorry.  65 ter number 3053.

 4             This is a document being submitted to the Municipal Assembly in

 5     response to a request for managerial staff of Muslim and Croat ethnicity.

 6             The people who are named here, did you know some of them?

 7        A.   Yes, most.

 8        Q.   To your knowledge, were these people all dismissed?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Yes.

11             MS. KORNER:  Could that be admitted and marked, please.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P952, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Exhibit behind divider 39, which is -- no, I don't -- don't

15     worry, because it's already part of the package.  That's part of the

16     92 ter package.

17             Could we have a look, though, please, at the document behind

18     divider 41, please, which is 2635.

19             Judge Kapetanovic is ordered to be removed.  Did you know him?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Was he dismissed as a result of this order?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Could that be, please, admitted and marked.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

Page 6097

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P953, Your Honours.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   The next document is at 42 and is 2636.  I'm pointing

 4     Mr. Dimitrijevic -- we're still on the last one.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Actually, Your Honours, these are all on the same --

 6     if that's all right, could I ask they all be admitted.  They're all

 7     relating to dismissals and appointments of Judges rather than taking him

 8     through each one.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  How many comprise the package?

10             MS. KORNER:  They are documents -- I think they're all 65 ters

11     one after the other.  Yes, they are.  It's 236, 237, 238, and 239.  Oh,

12     26, sorry.  it's 2636, 2637, 2638, 2639, all of which were on our 65 ter

13     list.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

15             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours -- 65 ter number 2636 will be

17     Exhibit P954.  65 ter 2637 will be Exhibit P955.  65 ter number 2638 will

18     be P957 -- 956, Your Honours.  And 65 ter number 2639 will be P957.

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   And then finally, or finally -- in your evidence on the Brdjanin

21     case you gave evidence about how your wife was forced to sign a document

22     relinquishing her property to the Kljuc municipality, and you dealt with

23     that.  I'd like you to have a look at one document on those lines as

24     well, please.  Could you look, please, at the document behind divider 47

25     and 65 ter number 3013.

Page 6098

 1             Mr. Egrlic, this document dated the 10th of August, 1992, is

 2     signed by Mr. Sistek, I think, although it's been mistyped.  Did you

 3     know -- any way, did you know that -- the person who was signing over

 4     their property here?  Or persons?  There are a number of them, a lot of

 5     them, including Omer Filipovic, apparently.  Did you know them all?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Then, Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P958, Your Honours.

12             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Now, very brief -- briefly, sir.  Oh, sorry.

14             MR. KRGOVIC:  Maybe I'm wrong.  Where do you see their property?

15     Were do you see that in this text?

16             MS. KORNER:  This is what he said about those -- he was asked

17     about this, and he said this in his testimony.  I can give you the page

18     number.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  Because I don't find in this document the term

20     property.  That's my --

21             MS. KORNER:  No, I understand that.  But this is what he said it

22     actually meant when he testified.  And I agree the document doesn't say,

23     "I leave my property to the municipality."

24        Q.   Can I just deal, please, briefly with what happened to you and

25     then take you immediately to Manjaca.  You were, I think, arrested at a

Page 6099

 1     check-point, and as you've explained, you were beaten when you were taken

 2     to the SUP, and that's at page 10562 of the transcript.  You were then

 3     taken to hospital and beaten again outside the hospital; is that right?

 4        A.   That's right, yes.

 5        Q.   And I think it's right that all you can say about the people who

 6     beat you is that they were in uniform, but you're unable to say whether

 7     they were army or police; is that right?

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   I'm sorry, the interpreter didn't hear your answer again.

11        A.   There were reserve policemen and troops as well.

12        Q.   And you're able to say that they were reserve policemen how?  Did

13     you know them?

14        A.   I knew those who had beaten me by names because we went to the

15     same grammar school.  They were only a year older than me.

16        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  From Kljuc were you taken to

17     Stari Gradiska?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And did interrogation of you start there and continue when you

20     were taken to Manjaca?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And at Manjaca, were you also beaten there?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Was that on one occasion or more than one occasion?

25        A.   On more than one occasion.

Page 6100

 1        Q.   Did those beatings take place during interrogation, before

 2     interrogation, or after interrogation?

 3        A.   Usually when the policemen entered the barns where we were kept

 4     they started beating people then, and I was one of those who were beaten.

 5        Q.   And I think it's right that you made two statements whilst you

 6     were in custody, detained.  When you made those statements, in what sort

 7     of condition were you?

 8        A.   I was in a very bad condition as regards my health.  I had been

 9     beaten up, wounded in the leg, and so on and so forth.  So I was not in a

10     very good state.

11        Q.   I want to ask you a couple more questions about conditions in

12     Manjaca.  What sort of food did you get before the arrival of the

13     Red Cross in July of 1992?

14        A.   In the morning we received tea without any sugar, and then in the

15     afternoon we received some sort of soup, but it was more warm water than

16     anything else, and a small slice of bread because a loaf of bread had to

17     be divided among -- among 30 people.

18        Q.   Are you able to say as a result of the -- the food and the

19     treatment how your weight altered?

20        A.   During a period of slightly over a month, I lost over 20 kilos.

21        Q.   We've heard evidence that people were sent to do labour - there

22     are documents about that - including the rebuilding, apparently, of a

23     Serb Orthodox Church.  Did you take part in any of that labour?

24        A.   I didn't take part in that.  I was not taken there.  But I know

25     that others had to work in the woods and things like that.

Page 6101

 1        Q.   Was -- how was -- how were people taken to do the labour?  Was it

 2     voluntary or were people simply told that they had to do it?

 3        A.   In the camp we had to obey orders.  People were taken away in

 4     columns guarded by armed people, and that's how they returned them as

 5     well.  So it was all forcible labour.

 6        Q.   Now, in connection with Manjaca can I ask you to look at one last

 7     document, please, which is behind your divider 37, and it's 2857.

 8             This document which is a list of enemy soldiers taken into

 9     custody in Sanica, and it relates to somebody called Esad -- [French on

10     English channel]

11             MS. KORNER:  That's for His Honour Judge Delvoie.

12        Q.   Did you know Mr. -- did you know Esad Sinanovic?

13        A.   I didn't know Esad, but I knew a lot of people from Sanski Most

14     who were in Manjaca camp.  They were kept in a separate barn.

15        Q.   The -- however, this prisoner was handed over by Inspector Gajic

16     of Kljuc.  Did you know him?

17        A.   I did.

18        Q.   What happened to -- sorry.  Was he one of the people who

19     interviewed you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   What happened to Inspector Gajic at the end?

22        A.   I don't know.  I heard that he either died or committed suicide,

23     but I'm not sure.

24        Q.   And you -- do you recognise the signature of Vinko Kondic on this

25     document?

Page 6102

 1        A.   I wouldn't say that it was Vinko's signature.  It was probably

 2     signed by somebody else in its stead.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted,

 4     please, admitted and marked.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P959, Your Honours.

 7             MS. KORNER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, I know that has been truncated, this question and

 9     answer session, but can I ask you finally this:  What effect did your

10     six months or so that you spent in Manjaca have on you?

11        A.   Terrible consequences.  My health is impaired.  I'm no longer

12     capable to work or to lead a normal life, as a matter of fact.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.  That's all I ask you, Mr. Egrlic.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I now tender into evidence,

15     please, his 92 --

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Admitted and marked.

17             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P960, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE HALL:  So we would take the usual break now, after which

20     counsel for whichever side they agree to go first will be invited to

21     cross-examine the witness.

22                           --- Recess taken at 5.22 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, before Mr. Pantelic starts, if I could

25     just remind him, and if he's kind enough and Your Honours, I would like

Page 6103

 1     just like a few minutes at the end to raise the administrative matters.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, sir.  You may be seated.  Can you hear me?

 3     Oh, he is seated.  Oh.  We thought he was --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sitting down.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Egrlic.  I represent

 7     Mr. Zupljanin, and my name is Counsel Pantelic.

 8             Tell me, please - I don't think I have found it anywhere in your

 9     statements - where did you serve in the army, in the JNA?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name of the

12     place.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Karlovac, I said.

14             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Did you attend the school for reserve officers there?

16        A.   No, I did not.

17        Q.   And after the compulsory military service, did you ever -- were

18     you ever called for training and military manoeuvres in Kljuc

19     municipality?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Which means that you're familiar with the principles of the

22     functioning of the military and the hierarchy, the positions of chain in

23     variable terms?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, you said earlier today when Ms. Korner was

Page 6104

 1     questioning you on page 48, lines 20 to 23, that as far as I could

 2     understand you, that you been beaten by some reserve policemen in front

 3     of the hospital building.  Am I right?

 4        A.   In front of the SJB and in front of the hospital as well.  In two

 5     different locations, that is.

 6        Q.   You also said that those people who had beaten you were reserve

 7     policemen whom you knew, at least some of them, because you went to

 8     school with them.  Am I interpreting your answer well?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Let me just ask you, since we are speaking the same language and

11     we've had difficulties with the satellite communication, when I finish my

12     question, could you please pause for anything between three to five

13     seconds for the interpreters to interpret my question and for the typist

14     to be able to record it.  Thank you for your understanding.

15             Tell me, please, could you give me the name of some of your

16     colleagues from school who went on to becoming reserve policemen who beat

17     you on that occasion?

18        A.   One of them was Boro Ceko.

19        Q.   From [realtime transcript read in error "Mr."] Kljuc?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And were there any others?

22        A.   The others I knew only by sight.

23        Q.   Do you have any of the names?

24        A.   I don't have any names.  I just knew them by sight.

25             JUDGE HALL:  In terms of the transcript at line 2 at page 54,

Page 6105

 1     counsel's question, as I recall was, From Kljuc?  It is recorded as being

 2     "Mr. Kljuc."

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, for clarification.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Egrlic, thus you can't remember anybody

 5     else, none of those who ill-treated you, as you say, at the time.  And

 6     that person Ceko, what kind of uniform did he wear?  Did he wear an

 7     olive-drab uniform?  Was he a member of a military unit?  Would you allow

 8     for that possibility?

 9        A.   No.  He wore a reserve police uniform.

10        Q.   Very well.  We'll check that.  Mr. Egrlic, on page 38 of today's

11     LiveNote, line 10, there was a reference to a curfew being introduced.

12             You are an educated person and you also had some military

13     knowledge at the time.  You will agree with me that when a curfew is

14     introduced under certain circumstances that that is a legitimate measure?

15     Would you agree with that?

16        A.   Under the circumstances as they were in Kljuc, there was no need

17     for that.

18        Q.   Well, let's rewind a bit.  My question was this:  Under

19     extraordinary circumstances and when some combat operations are underway,

20     would you say that introducing a curfew is a legitimate measure?  Yes or

21     no?  Listen to my question carefully.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   On page 35, line 8, earlier today, you mentioned that you had

24     attended a meeting in Mr. Zupljanin's office and that on that occasion

25     you were provided an explanation as to why the markings and insignia had

Page 6106

 1     been introduced.  Do you remember when you said that in response to my

 2     learned friend Mrs. Korner's questions?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember that on that occasion Mr. Zupljanin mentioned the

 5     fact that the family name of his father-in-law was Filipovic and that he

 6     had turned to the late Omer with regard to that because they may have

 7     been related given the fact that they bore the same family name?  Do you

 8     remember that detail?

 9        A.   It is possible, but I really don't remember that particular

10     detail.

11        Q.   On that occasion, do you remember that Mr. Zupljanin said that

12     the Law on Internal Affairs had been adopted by Republika Srpska and that

13     that law prescribed certain forms including symbols on military caps or

14     hats and that under that law or pursuant to that law new military -- new

15     police insignia were being introduced?  Do you remember that detail?

16        A.   No, I don't.

17        Q.   When did you first hear about the establishment of

18     Republika Srpska?

19        A.   Sometime in the second half of 1991.

20        Q.   You are an experienced politician and an intellectual,

21     well-educated person.  You remember significant events that happened at

22     the time, those that could be put in the context of this case.  You

23     remember the developments in the Assembly, the parliament of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina.  Do you remember all those developments?

25        A.   I remember some of them.

Page 6107

 1        Q.   Did you often travel to Sarajevo in order to receive instructions

 2     from the headquarters of your party the SDA in the autumn of 1991?

 3        A.   I travelled to Sarajevo on business as the President of the

 4     Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly.  I don't know how often I went

 5     to Sarajevo.

 6        Q.   Well -- very well.  It's all justified and legitimate.  You met

 7     with the political leaders of the SDA, of course, and you had political

 8     consultations with them and that was all part of your duty.  Wouldn't

 9     that be correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You remember the events in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina

12     when a vote was taken on the declaration on the independence and

13     sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  SDA and HDZ MPs over-voted

14     SDS MPs who walked out in protest.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And what happened then were the developments that led to the

17     establishment of Republika Srpska, and that was on the 9th of January,

18     1992.  Is that correct?

19        A.   I suppose so.

20        Q.   Tell me, please, it seems that I have come across in one of your

21     statements a reference to the time when you drafted joint announcements

22     with the MBO party, and you mentioned certain vital interests of the

23     Muslim people or, rather, the population in Kljuc.  Am I right?  I

24     believe that I have paraphrased your sentence quite well.  Just say yes

25     or no.

Page 6108

 1        A.   It's possible.  I really don't know what you're referring to.

 2        Q.   Let me jog your memory.  I'm talking about the joint activities

 3     of the SDA and the MBO in Kljuc on the occasion of the initiative and

 4     voting of the SDS in Kljuc municipality about ratifying the decision on

 5     joining the Autonomous Region of Krajina.  Do you remember those

 6     political developments at the local level?  Do you or do you not?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   And then your position was that that was contrary to the vital

 9     interests of the Muslim people in Kljuc.  Yes or no?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   That element, namely the vital interest of every people in Bosnia

12     is very important.  We're talking about the foundations of Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina even as we know it today.  Am I right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So there should be no over-voting when it comes to the vital

16     interests of any of the peoples.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And every people has its representatives in certain bodies and

19     should have the right of veto to block a decision directed against a

20     vital interest of any of the peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croats,

21     Bosniaks, and Serbs alike.  Is that so?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And naturally that principle is in power as well today.  It's all

24     very clearly defined in the Dayton Accords; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6109

 1        Q.   When you visited Sarajevo in 1991, and I believe in early 1992 as

 2     well, did you at the meetings among the leadership of your party discuss

 3     international initiatives, such, for example, those directed at finding a

 4     peaceful settlement to the conflict in Bosnia and political problems?

 5     Remember, there were a lot of activities within the international

 6     community at the time.

 7        A.   There were, yes, but I didn't take part in such meetings.

 8        Q.   Well, as an intelligent and educated man and as a leader of the

 9     party in Kljuc, you probably followed the press and the media.  You

10     remember that at the time there was some discussion of cantonisation of

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina, of establishing certain regions and districts.

12     Remember such ideas?  It was in early 1992; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And it seems to me that you were either a minister or some other

15     high official after the war in the Sana Una Canton; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Probably a minister of civil engineering.

18        A.   Of industry.

19        Q.   Are you still a member of the SDA?

20        A.   I am.

21        Q.   At the local level, or are you a member of the Main Board at the

22     level of the Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the witness.

24             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And the Sana Una Canton is part of the Federation of Bosnia and

Page 6110

 1     Herzegovina; right?  The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina has eight

 2     or nine cantons, if I'm not mistaken.

 3        A.   Ten.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Mr. Pantelic, we didn't get an answer to the

 5     question whether he was a member of the Main Board.  They didn't hear the

 6     answer.

 7             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, would you please repeat your answer when I asked you

 9     whether you were a member of the Main Board at the level of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina of the SDA.  Please tell me what was your answer.

11        A.   I'm not.  I'm not.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Therefore, we agreed that there had been certain

13     efforts within the international community to reach a peaceful

14     settlement.  We agreed that the principles of cantonisation were

15     discussed.  We agreed that Republika Srpska had been set up and that the

16     federation was set up between the Croats and Muslims in Bosnia and that

17     all of that put together comprises the nowadays independent and sovereign

18     unified Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   For the sake of the transcript, you're not a constitutional law

21     expert, are you?

22        A.   I'm not.

23        Q.   Similarly, you're not an expert for international public law and

24     similar matters?

25        A.   I'm not.

Page 6111

 1        Q.   Why did you, then, in replying to the Prosecutor use the

 2     formulation that Republika Srpska and that organisation was a para-state?

 3     How do you find yourself to be entitled to call something a para-state

 4     when you don't know what the elements of statehood are?  Why did you

 5     state that that was a para-state?  Do you have something against

 6     Republika Srpska?

 7        A.   At the time, it was a para-state.

 8        Q.   So it is simply an emotional attitude of yours.  You're not

 9     really qualified to assess whether something is a para-state.  Is that

10     right, Mr. Egrlic?

11        A.   Well, I know what elements a state needs to have, what organs,

12     and my personal feelings are on top of that.

13        Q.   All right.  Now that you've broached this subject, please tell

14     me, what does a state need to have in order to be called a state?  Give

15     me the elements, please, or maybe I should assist you.  Would you like me

16     to?  It would be faster.

17             Does it need to have a central government?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Does it need to have territory?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Does the central government need to control the territory?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Well, then, in 1992 did the central government in Sarajevo

24     control the entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25        A.   It didn't.

Page 6112

 1        Q.   Very well.  That was sufficient with regard to these

 2     constitutional topics.  We can move on now.

 3             Mr. Egrlic, please tell me, when an order from the TO staff of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived -- and I think that its commander was a

 5     certain Colonel Efendic; right?  I apologise.  My colleague is indicating

 6     that I need to correct it.  The TO commander in 1992 was Colonel Hasan

 7     Efendic; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And since the JNA had fallen apart, each ethnic group in Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina started establishing its own armed forces; rights?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   The Croats had the Croatian Defence Council, abbreviated HVO.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And as one of their symbols on their uniforms was a

15     chequer-board; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   As for the TO at the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it was

18     actually a precursor to the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Various generals and leaders at the time called it the

21     Patriotic League and similar names.  We don't need to repeat that, but

22     you know what I'm aiming at; right?  And the symbol of that armed

23     formation were the lilies; right?

24        A.   That was in the course of 1993, and I testified about 1992.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 6113

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Pantelic, I'm just wondering where we're

 2     going with all of this in relation to the evidence offered by this

 3     witness.

 4             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one more

 5     question to round off the topic of insignia and put an end to that topic.

 6     We lose a lot of time on that topic.  The Prosecutor keeps bringing up

 7     the insignia, and we can agree that each side had their own insignia and

 8     it was all legitimate, and I don't see why that needs to be repeated with

 9     every witness.  Just one more question, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So let us move on.

11             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] We will.

12        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, in 1992, in the then Bosnia-Herzegovina, all three

13     sides had their own individual insignia.  The Serbs had a tricolour flag

14     like the one we saw on the police cap.  The Muslim forces had lilies, and

15     the Croats had a chequer-board symbol.  You agree?  And then we can move

16     on.

17        A.   That was towards the end of 1992 and early 1993.  Initially there

18     was the coat of arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that had been defined

19     by the constitution.

20        Q.   Today in your examination-in-chief you discussed the phenomenon

21     known as Sehid.  Over the break we looked up what encyclopedias have and

22     saw that there was this formulation.  The combatants who were killed

23     during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina are known as Sehids if they were

24     members of the Bosnian Muslim Corps.  This strictly refers to soldiers,

25     but are you familiar with this formulation, and do you know that it is

Page 6114

 1     being used in Bosnia and Herzegovina to this day?

 2        A.   Depends on who's using it.

 3        Q.   Well, it is used when referring to soldiers who were killed.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Today, on page 22; when you spoke of the Laniste 2 grave, were

 6     soldiers from the Muslim units from the territory of Kljuc also buried in

 7     that grave?

 8        A.   No, there are just civilians there.

 9        Q.   And where are the soldiers from the Kljuc unit buried?

10        A.   None of them were killed.  They were taken out of their houses

11     and shot to death as civilians.

12        Q.   So you're telling us now -- actually, let's first clarify this.

13     You arrived in Manjaca towards late May of 1992; right?

14        A.   In early June.

15        Q.   Were there any victims on the Muslim TO side in Kljuc up until

16     that moment?  Do you know of anybody who was killed?

17        A.   As far as I know, nobody was.

18        Q.   And later on when your compatriots came up there and when you met

19     them at Manjaca and later on, after 1992 as well, none of the members of

20     the Muslim TO in Kljuc were killed.  Is that what you're telling us?

21        A.   Nobody was killed.

22        Q.   Nobody was killed.  Two armies were fighting, two armed

23     formations were fighting and nobody killed on the Muslim side -- nobody

24     was killed on the Muslim side in Kljuc throughout the war.  Is that what

25     you're trying to tell us?

Page 6115

 1        A.   Well, that really wasn't a war.  You have a different perception

 2     of it.  It was just one incident, and that's all there was to it.

 3        Q.   Let us look into this.  Were there any combat operations in the

 4     territory of Kljuc when the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived from Sanski Most?

 5     Were there any combat operations at the time?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   This is quite new to us.  It's really surprising.  Were you going

 8     to say anything?

 9        A.   I wanted to say that what I just told you is exactly what it is.

10     That's how it always was.

11        Q.   Would you please look into the binder, Mr. Egrlic, tab 23.

12     65 ter 2029.

13             Let me just tell you something, Mr. Egrlic.  All these documents

14     came from the Prosecution.  We put them in order, and many of them had

15     been used in other cases, in Brdjanin, Krajisnik, where you also

16     testified.  There is a number in the upper right corner.  That's the

17     number that I was referring to.

18             Mr. Egrlic, please look at page 2.

19             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Could we please put the second

20     page on the screen, please.  That's at the bottom of the page.

21        Q.   You can read it, and you can just confirm for me whether this is

22     correct in order to speed things up.

23             So you spoke about what you knew, saying that a large number of

24     civilians were killed at the school in Velagici; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6116

 1        Q.   And that took place on the 1st of June, 1992; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And what we see here, what you've just read, is the description

 4     of that event.  It is described how this event was qualified as a war

 5     crime against civilian population, and if you turn to page 3, Mr. Egrlic,

 6     you can see that; right?  Do you agree with me?

 7        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

 8        Q.   All right.  On page 3 we see that it was signed by Zoran Babic,

 9     Deputy Military Prosecutor; right?  And this military prosecutor

10     recommends certain measures in accordance with the law, who needs to be

11     interviewed and various forensic details.  We don't need to go into that,

12     but please look at page 1 where there is a request to commence

13     investigation.  This is something that the military prosecutor is sending

14     to the military court in Banja Luka; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And now look under number 5, Mr. Egrlic.  First let me ask you,

17     Donje Ratkovo, is that in the Kljuc sector?  Under 5.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you know this person Bajic by any chance?

20        A.   I don't know him.  I only heard of him.  The name rings a bell.

21        Q.   And under number 6 I see that that person is from Vrbljane in

22     Kljuc municipality, and the person's name is Cuk, Nikola Cuk.  Do you

23     happen to know him?  Did you ever hear of him?

24        A.   No.  I don't know that person.

25        Q.   Turn to page 2, please.  Do you see under name Osan [phoen], a

Page 6117

 1     certain Zoran Banjac from the village of Sanica?  Did you perhaps know

 2     him, or does the name ring a bell?

 3        A.   I didn't know him, but I am familiar with the family name Banjac

 4     in Kljuc.

 5        Q.   And what about Milenko Miljevic from Gornji Budelj, did you ever

 6     hear of him?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   And now -- I have to wait.  I'm looking at the transcript.  Now

 9     it's okay.  Let's go on.  Under number 10, 11 and 12, you see some names.

10     Do you perhaps know any of them?  Does any of the names ring a bell?

11        A.   No, no.  No.  I don't know them.  They don't sound familiar at

12     all.

13        Q.   Very well.

14             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honour, I would be grateful if this document

15     can be admitted and marked if there is no objection from Prosecution

16     or --

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the only question I have is do I

18     understand from this line of examination or cross-examination, rather,

19     that Zupljanin is in fact challenging the adjudicated facts which have

20     been admitted in this case not against him?  The answer to that is yes,

21     is it?

22             MR. PANTELIC:  For the record, yes.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I have no objection to being admitted,

24     but it's -- it's a matter, obviously, that we'll now have to take into

25     consideration, because the adjudicated facts are very different from

Page 6118

 1     what's in here.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D42, Your Honours.

 4             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] And now from your previous testimonies in the

 6     Brdjanin and Krajisnik cases -- no, no, no, no.  Strike that.  Let me

 7     start with an introduction.

 8             Pursuant to an order issued by the BiH TO, the late

 9     Omer Filipovic was appointed the commander of the TO unit.  He was a

10     reserve officer, and that was the main reason why he had been put up by

11     the TO staff to be a commander.  Is that right?

12             Could you please repeat your answer.

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   You were in charge of political issues in the same staff; right?

15        A.   Right.

16        Q.   And Captain Amir Abdic was some sort of a military coordinator in

17     charge of matters in the field given his previous experience in the JNA;

18     is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Where was Golaja?  Where is Golaja?  Could you please try and

21     locate that area for us, Golaja.

22        A.   That is a part of Sanski Most municipality.

23        Q.   There was a significant military unit there under the command of

24     Captain Avdic; right?

25        A.   Yes.  That's what I heard.

Page 6119

 1        Q.   I'm sure that you also heard that some Serb soldiers had been

 2     arrested, and Colonel Basara then negotiated, and finally Serb soldiers

 3     were liberated, and Captain Abdic and his troops were seen off to the

 4     territory under the control of the BiH Army somewhere in the Bihac area;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes.  I heard of that.

 7        Q.   The TO staff which was organised there as the precursor of the

 8     ABiH had, according to some assessments and estimates, approximately

 9     1.500 to 2.000 members; right?  I'm talking about conscripts.

10        A.   Yes.  Taking into account all military conscripts that could have

11     been its potential strength.

12        Q.   Of course, of course.  The mobilisation process was underway.  We

13     will agree on that; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, you claim in your statements that the Kljuc TO unit was

16     exclusively established to engage in defence activities; right?

17        A.   I'm not claiming that.  It was the period of its infancy and that

18     was its aim.

19        Q.   But it was not envisaged to engage in any offensive operations

20     against the Serbs.  Am I right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, let's help the Trial Chamber and look at some events

23     together, some of which you're personally familiar with or you heard

24     about them from your fellow citizens or based on some documents.  I'm

25     putting it to you that on the 27th of May, 1992, an ambush was set up in

Page 6120

 1     the Gornji Ramici sector.  You've already testified about that.  On that

 2     occasion, the assistant commander of the Kljuc SJB, Dusan Stojakovic, was

 3     killed, and he was a Serb; right?

 4        A.   I don't know all the details, but I know that he was indeed

 5     killed.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the end of his answer.

 7             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness said he

 8     was known as Duca.

 9        Q.   We believe that there was an ambush and that he was killed in

10     that ambush.  That's my question.

11        A.   We do not agree about the ambush.  We are talking about a --

12     village guards, people who were guarding their own homes.  They didn't go

13     to the Serb territory in order to attack anybody there.

14        Q.   I don't know [as interpreted] that several people were wounded.

15     One of them was a member of the military police, Zeljko Tesmon [phoen]

16     and a policeman Milos Kecman.  Do you remember that?

17        A.   I heard of that.

18        Q.   He was shot at by the Muslim TO; right?  They were shot at by the

19     Muslim TO.  It's a simple question.  Just say yes, no, move on.  They

20     were shot at by the Muslim TO.

21        A.   I suppose so.  I don't know who shot at them.

22        Q.   Well, never mind, let's move on.  Let's go on.  And after that

23     does Aziz Gromljic [phoen] ring a well?

24        A.   Yes, he does.

25        Q.   He was a retired police officer or a policeman of the federal

Page 6121

 1     SUP; right?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   He was a member of a special detachment in the federal SUP, but

 4     you don't know that, do you?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Let's move on.  On the 27th May, ambushes were set up

 7     in the Busija-Pudin Han sectors.  You've already spoken about that.  A

 8     military column was attacked, the one moving from Knin towards

 9     Banja Luka, a military column, a column of the Serb army; right?

10        A.   I've heard of the incidents, but I don't know how things

11     transpired.

12        Q.   Do you know that two soldiers were killed on that occasion, that

13     six were seriously wounded, and that 27 were slightly wounded, and that

14     four more soldiers subsequently succumbed to their wounds.  Do you know

15     of that?

16        A.   I heard of that.

17        Q.   And also on the 27th of May in the Tocionik sector -- or, rather,

18     Tocina, I apologise, which is close to the crossroads of roads leading to

19     Kljuc and Sanski Most, another ambush was set up and -- but it was not

20     completed because it was going to be -- to serve an attack on the police

21     detachment.  Do you know about that?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   On the 27th May, on the same day, the M5 road above the village

24     of Velagici was blown up in order to prevent the transfer of Serbian Army

25     units to various other positions.  That operation was carried out using

Page 6122

 1     80 kilogrammes of explosives.  Are you aware of that?

 2        A.   No, I didn't know about that.

 3        Q.   On that same day, 27 May, again do you know that seven soldiers

 4     from a unit in Dobrinja who were out reconnoitering were arrested in the

 5     Crljeni sector.  Did you hear of that?

 6        A.   I heard that that happened on the 26th of May.

 7        Q.   According to our information and based on documents that we

 8     received from a very honest officer, Colonel Basara, who placed all of

 9     them under his control.  We have information that on the 27th of May was

10     the beginning of all the armed conflicts involving the Muslim TO and the

11     military forces of the Serbs.  Can we agree on that?  Can we agree that

12     that day was when the conflicts really started?  Right?  Do you agree

13     with me?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Let me put it to you this way:  I didn't want to go into all the

16     details with you because we're short on time, but you say -- you will

17     find that in our binder under tab 21.  Could you please look at that.

18     I'm going to tell you that you already spoke about that in the Krajisnik

19     case, if I'm not mistaken.  This is a Prosecutor's document which was

20     tendered into evidence.  This is a report by the Kljuc SJB which speaks

21     about all those various events, and you spoke at great length about all

22     of them in the other cases, so I don't want to belabour the matter with

23     you, but please look at page 9, Mr. Egrlic.  Actually, pages 9, 10, and

24     11.  You will find a lot more details in the descriptions of the events

25     that we have just mentioned.  Could you please just confirm for us.  Look

Page 6123

 1     at pages 9, bullet point 1, and so on and so forth.  This is what you

 2     will find here.

 3        A.   I have a document, a five-page long document.

 4        Q.   Can you look at page 1.  What does it say?

 5        A.   Information about a larger number of refugees.

 6        Q.   No, no, no.  Sorry.  Wrong document.  There must have been some

 7     confusion.

 8             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher -- or the

 9     Court Officer, rather, provide the witness with number 21, which is the

10     document in our binder under tab 21 -- or, rather, bearing number 21.

11     I'm sorry, sorry.  No, no, no.  I apologise.  It's a P document.  I

12     apologise.  It's a P document.  Here it is.  Sorry.  Under number 20.

13     It's a 92 ter binder, a Prosecution document.  The Prosecutor's binder.

14     65 ter number 845.  I apologise.  My mistake.  It's a P document.

15        Q.   Do you have it, Mr. Egrlic?  Is that a document from July 1992,

16     information about the work of the SJB?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You saw it already in some other cases, and now could you please

19     look at page 9.  Could you kindly look at page 9 in this document.  There

20     you have it.  Gornji Ramici.  Let's move on to page 10, reference to

21     Busija, and Pudin Han, Tocina, and so on and so forth.  Well, you see how

22     things are arranged.  And these are the events that we've just discussed;

23     right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you commented on this document in earlier cases too.  Thank

Page 6124

 1     you, Mr. Egrlic.

 2             MR. PANTELIC:  Significant objection or -- I would like -- it's

 3     admitted.

 4             MS. KORNER:  It's part of 65 ter -- 92 ter.

 5             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I apologise, Mr. Egrlic.  This was already admitted as part of

 7     the 92 ter package.  Thank you very much for this.

 8             Now, when Colonel Basara entered the Kljuc area with the

 9     6th Brigade, he, together with Colonel Galic from the Kljuc brigade, the

10     two of them as military officials, as a military unit, place everything

11     under their control, and all of the procedures from that time on had to

12     be authorised in a certain way by military organs.

13        A.   I don't know.

14        Q.   All right.  Mr. Egrlic, did you hear that in mid-April 1992, and

15     this is something that was confirmed at the Assembly session in May of

16     1992 in Banja Luka, that they declared an imminent threat of war?  Did

17     you hear of this piece of information?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   At page 73, line 11, and your answer is line 18, your answer was,

20     "I don't know," full stop, "probably."  Right?

21        A.   Probably, I don't know.  I wasn't there.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the witness.

23             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Well, I'm asking you as an educated person, as somebody who is

25     aware of general principles.  You served in the army.  You attended

Page 6125

 1     military exercises.  When there are military operations in the state of

 2     imminent threat of war, then under those circumstances the army is given

 3     very specific responsibilities.

 4        A.   Well, the essential question is what was the army doing there?

 5        Q.   Certainly.  We'll get to that.  But now for the time being,

 6     Mr. Egrlic, please tell me, when it comes to the role of the army in the

 7     state of imminent threat of war, as an educated, wise man, would you

 8     agree with me when I say that at that point in time the army takes on the

 9     role of somebody who regulates all aspects of life?  Would you agree with

10     me?

11        A.   Yes, in the case of war, when the war is declared, but

12     Republika Srpska commenced the war on their own initiative in order to

13     clear up the territory and to become a mono-ethnic state.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Egrlic, tell me, please, this:  The previous document

15     that we discussed, the one with ambushes and actions and the beginning of

16     the conflict on the 27th of May, 1992, you will agree with me, won't you,

17     that those ambushes and those activities were in their nature offensive

18     activities?

19        A.   First of all, we can't agree that those were ambushes.  People

20     were there standing guard as local village guards in front of their

21     homes.  They did not go over to the Serb territory and do that.

22        Q.   But wait a second.  You will agree with me, won't you, that there

23     were some synchronised activities on the 27th of May in several

24     localities in the Kljuc area and that the Muslim TO carried out certain

25     combat operations, actions.  Would you agree with me?

Page 6126

 1        A.   No, I wouldn't.

 2        Q.   Well, wait a second.  Who had a conflict then with the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska and with the brigade of Colonel Basara?  Who was waging

 4     a war there?  Who was putting up resistance?  Who participated in that?

 5     Please give me an explanation.

 6        A.   Nobody did.  On the 27th of May, they entered without having

 7     fired a bullet.  They entered and they took up all strategically

 8     significant locations, and it wasn't until later when Abdic separated

 9     himself and moved on to Golaja.

10        Q.   All right.  That's what I'm interested in.  Abdic split away from

11     them, he set up his own unit, and the fighting between the Muslim TO and

12     the units of the Army of Republika Srpska commenced; right?

13        A.   Yes, but that was already some time -- I don't know the date, but

14     it wasn't the dates that we discussed.

15        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Egrlic, let us just look at this document.  In

16     the meantime as I'm doing this, would you please tell me, how many Serbs

17     are there living in Kljuc municipality now?  Do you know that?

18        A.   I don't.

19        Q.   Well, it's an insignificant number; right?

20        A.   People simply didn't come back.  They sold their properties, and

21     that's how it was.  They did it -- they did it have their own will.

22     There could have been more of them living there now.

23        Q.   So it was their decision.  They sold their properties, and they

24     moved to an area where they want to live; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6127

 1        Q.   And in relation to the pre-war time, I suppose that a large

 2     number of other Bosniaks came to Kljuc municipality, that they settled

 3     there.

 4        A.   No, not a lot of them.

 5        Q.   All right.  Well, a certain number came.  Now, Mr. Egrlic, now

 6     please look at tab 13 in our binder.  This is a two-page document

 7     dated -- just a second, please.  There seems to be another confusion

 8     here.  My mistake.  I apologise.  Twenty-five.  Twenty-five.  I'm really

 9     sorry.  Tab 25.  2D05-0071.  My associates sent it today by mail, by

10     e-mail, under number 20 today.

11             Mr. Egrlic, is this document discussion SDA and MBO?

12        A.   No.  This is the information on the work of a group in Kljuc

13     municipality.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, then something else there.  We are changing it

15     now.  Would you please see whether it's under tab 25.  That's a document

16     we sent today.  2D05-0071.

17             While we are looking for the document, Mr. Egrlic, I will tell

18     you what this is about.  That was a debate between the SDA and the MBO,

19     and what they discussed at the time was certain anxiety among the

20     population leaving the ARK Krajina.  You participated, and then

21     Mr. Omer Filipovic, and then some other people.  Do you remember about

22     this?  It was on the 16th of January, 1992, and you testified about this

23     in Krajisnik; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The point of that release, press release, was that -- do you have

Page 6128

 1     the document in front of you?  All right.  Now all of us have it.  Great.

 2     So the point of that report -- oh, let me ask you this first:

 3     Nihad Filipovic is acting as a greater Catholic than the Pope.  So what

 4     was that supposed to mean?  What was he doing?  He was from the

 5     Liberal Party.  So what was the reason he was described in this way?

 6        A.   Where does it say so?

 7        Q.   Towards the end.  Two -- ninth line from the bottom.  It says

 8     "Nihad Filipovic."  Have you found it?  Have you found it?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   So you knew Nihad Filipovic; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   He was a leader or something else within that Liberal Party in

13     Kljuc; right?

14        A.   I don't know which party he represented.

15        Q.   What -- what was this supposed to mean in this joint release,

16     that he was a greater Catholic than the Pope?  What was his position?

17     What platform did he advocate?

18        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I need to see what it says here.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic.

20             MR. PANTELIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE HALL:  I'm sorry to interrupt, but at some point could you

22     take the break until tomorrow morning.  You remember Ms. Korner asked for

23     a few minutes to deal with some matters before we take the evening's

24     adjournment.

25             MR. PANTELIC:  I'm very mindful about that, Your Honour, and I

Page 6129

 1     think that this is a proper moment to take a break.  Because in the

 2     meantime, I suggest to Mr. Egrlic to take a look at these documents, and

 3     then we can go much faster tomorrow.  This document and other documents,

 4     too, so that we can finish tomorrow.

 5             [Interpretation] That won't take a lot of time.

 6             Thank you, Mr. Egrlic.  See you -- or, rather, talk to you

 7     tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Egrlic, we are about to adjourn for the evening.

 9     There are some procedural matters with which the Chamber must deal, but

10     your testimony's not at an end, so you would be excused at this point,

11     but you will resume -- we will resume at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.  That's

12     2.15 local time in The Hague, whatever the time is in Sarajevo.

13             The -- because you are sworn as a witness, I must remind you that

14     you can't discuss your testimony with anyone.  So you are now excused to

15     return tomorrow.  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, thank you very much.

19             The first administrative matter is this:  Because of the gap

20     we've had to reorganise the witnesses.  And so Witness 187 for whom a

21     safe conduct was issued between various dates, could we alter the dates,

22     please, from the 6th to the 13th of March.  The safe conduct originally

23     was for -- I can't remember what day.  I no longer remember the dates,

24     but --

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Are safe conduct orders time limited.

Page 6130

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes, no, they're time limited.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  They expire when the within has given testimony?

 3             MS. KORNER:  I don't think so.  I think we gave a range of dates,

 4     but I can check -- or maybe Mr. Dygeus can check that.  But in any event,

 5     it started on the date before he was due to testify which will no longer

 6     be the date, so we'd like it altered to the 6th of March.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  The Chamber will see to it that the necessary

 8     writing -- the necessary amendment is done in writing.  Thank you,

 9     Ms. Korner.

10             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

11             Your Honours, the second matter is this:  Tomorrow's witness

12     deals quite extensively in the statement, which is part of the 92

13     package, with exhumations.  This is the second witness who can, if

14     required, deal with exhumations.  He was present at a great deal.

15             Now, as yet we haven't really had an indication from the Defence

16     whether exhumation evidence is something that can be agreed, and we keep

17     on -- as I say, the second witness.  We're going to have a number of

18     witnesses who could deal with it if it's going to be the subject of

19     dispute.  So what we're really asking for is a general indication, no

20     more than that, that the detail can be worked out tomorrow before the

21     witness is called whether or not witnesses who can actually deal with

22     the -- what exhumations were carried out and when and the documentation

23     will be required to give evidence about this.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So counsel would consult, and they will let you know

25     what the position is.

Page 6131

 1             MS. KORNER:  Exactly.  I've mentioned this to both sets of

 2     counsel, but obviously it's preferable if they could at least just turn

 3     their mind perhaps into overnight and tomorrow morning as to whether this

 4     evidence is likely to be disputed.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  So they have been reminded.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Could counsel indicate in the presence of the

 8     Chamber when the OTP might expect an answer to assist them in how they,

 9     therefore, conduct their examination of this witness?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, we will -- we will do our best, Your Honour,

11     to -- to advise Ms. Korner and the -- the OTP of our position before they

12     start tomorrow with the witness.  Thank you very much.

13                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

14             JUDGE HALL:  As counsel for the Defence may be aware, there is

15     before the Chamber a sixth application for adjudicated facts, and the --

16     having regard to the fact that it is well known this is -- this is a

17     ruling on which the Chamber is anxiously working, the expedited response

18     from the Defence on this most resent application would be of assistance.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  We're aware of that, and we

20     intend to file it by end of this week.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment to 2.15 tomorrow in -- I

22     think we're still in this courtroom.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of

25                           February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.