Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6132

 1                           Thursday, 4 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 6     number IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 7     Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             The -- may we have the appearances, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

11     Belinda Pidwell, assisted by Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for the Stanisic Defence

14     this afternoon.  Thank you.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For

16     Zupljanin Defence Igor Pantelic, Dragan Krgovic, and Mr. Jason Antley.

17             JUDGE HALL:  I understand that the OTP may have a preliminary

18     matter.  But before you do that, we would just wish to remind counsel

19     that the matter that was raised about a fortnight going now, I understand

20     it's been that long, about a site visit in respect of which counsel were

21     to have put their heads together, we would be grateful if the -- we could

22     have your response by Monday week.  That would be the 15th of February.

23     Thank you.

24             Yes, Ms. Korner.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I hope I'm going to give Your Honour

Page 6133

 1     some good news for a change.  Your Honours will recall that in a decision

 2     rendered last year where we applied to add new witnesses, we were ordered

 3     to remove a witness from our witness list, and we were given by

 4     Your Honours leave to make the decision by March the 1st.  We've decided

 5     to be rather speedier than that.  We have taken a decision to remove from

 6     our witness list ST-199.

 7             Your Honours should be even happier that next week you won't have

 8     to consider the application that we made for him.  We asked for a witness

 9     summons in respect of him on the 14th of January.  Obviously having

10     dropped him, we now withdraw our application.

11             Your Honour, second matter is this:  We've had some communication

12     with Defence counsel for both accused over this question of exhumations.

13     At the moment it appears that there is a dispute, that the Defence are

14     not prepared to make an admission as to the exhumations, what bodies were

15     recovered, cause of death and the like.  It may well be that we can sort

16     this out at a later stage, but if not, then I'm afraid we'll have to

17     reinstate the exhumation witnesses or witness, but it also means that the

18     witness who's coming after Mr. Egrlic this afternoon will have to be

19     asked about the exhumations in which he was involved.  I think it's

20     regrettable, but there we are.  If we're being put to strict proof, we're

21     being put to strict proof.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you for this information.

25             I'm -- I'm a bit surprised to learn that there is disagreement

Page 6134

 1     about the exhumation issue, and I wonder if -- if the parties would be

 2     good enough to give the Chamber a heads-up on which issues are in dispute

 3     in relation to the exhumations.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the issue that was --

 5     the question that was given to us yesterday by Ms. Korner and the OTP

 6     pertained to the next coming witness.  The question concerned his

 7     participation in discovering and opening up certain graves in the

 8     territory of Kljuc municipality.

 9             We agreed with the Prosecution that as far as that is concerned,

10     we have no objections.  However, it can certainly not be expected that

11     the Defence would stipulate findings which come from a person that has no

12     forensic qualifications, and it is simply not reasonable to expect us to

13     stipulate any findings coming from him concerning those graves.  We don't

14     know whether those were original graves to begin with or whether there

15     was some reburial taking place, transportation and so on.  We don't know

16     when those graves were created.  Similarly, we don't know whether the

17     remains that were found in the graves are remains of the persons who lost

18     their lives during the relevant period or following that period.  So

19     there is a huge number of outstanding issues over which we cannot agree

20     with the Prosecution right now.

21             We informed Ms. Korner this morning that we accepted what I have

22     just informed you of, and we left the possibility open to keep discussing

23     this.  As far as I could understand from Ms. Korner, talking to her just

24     before this session, she asked us to accept the so-called forensic

25     database on exhumations.

Page 6135

 1             I suppose -- and, Your Honours, I'm not competent enough,

 2     technically speaking, to accept this at face value.  Therefore, I need to

 3     receive instructions from a person who is competent on the matter.  That

 4     is to say we need to consult an expert.

 5             The other thing is that there will be a number of issues there.

 6     Perhaps we will find agreement on some issues and leave some other issues

 7     open.  What I just enumerated to you are the issues that I think are the

 8     most pertinent for this case and for the ruling of the Trial Chamber.

 9             I hope I was of assistance in my submission, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very much so, Mr. Zecevic.  Thank you very much.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can --

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Can I just ask you, Ms. Korner, I suppose the

14     idea from the Prosecution was that you would not be seeking to call

15     evidence to confirm the exhumation database.  You would just submit the

16     database to the Bench and say that's it, and that's the evidence we get.

17             MS. KORNER:  Exactly.  Your Honours, however, because it didn't

18     occur to us that there would be this sort of dispute, this evidence has

19     been given over and over again in trials without really any

20     cross-examination accruing.  But that's what we will do.  We will put the

21     database into evidence which the Defence, may I say, have had for

22     virtually since the beginning of this case, and see where we go from

23     there.

24             Your Honour, all that -- what concerns me is what Mr. Zecevic

25     just said about whether it's a secondary grave, what the forensic people

Page 6136

 1     said about the cause of death.  We've got witness after witness after

 2     witness that deals with that.  All of that information was gathered

 3     together and put into the database, but what concerns me is if there's

 4     seriously going to be a dispute about the cause of death or whether it

 5     was an original grave or a secondary grave, then we just have to start

 6     calling the people who actually carry out these investigations, the

 7     pathologist, the archaeologist, the anthropologist.  But for the moment

 8     what we will do is we will submit -- we will apply to add, I suppose, to

 9     our 65 ter list the whole database of exhumations, and then we'll see

10     where we go from there.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13                           WITNESS:  ASIM EGRLIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           [Witness testified via videolink]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Good afternoon, to you, sir.  We are about to resume

17     this trial.  Can you hear me?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.  I can.

19             JUDGE HALL:  I remind you that you're still on your oath, and I

20     would now invite Mr. Pantelic to resume his cross-examination.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.  Can you hear me?  Is

23     everything all right?  Can you hear me, Mr. Egrlic?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes, I can.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I was just testing to make sure everything is in

Page 6137

 1     order.

 2             Tell me, please, Mr. Egrlic, while being proofed for your

 3     testimony before coming to the Tribunal's office, did you talk to anybody

 4     from the OTP?

 5        A.   I did.

 6        Q.   Who was that?  Do you know that person's name?

 7        A.   I don't know the name.  I can't remember.

 8        Q.   Was it yesterday, or was it before you arrived?

 9        A.   Before.

10        Q.   And did you talk to any of your family members or any of your

11     friends yesterday after your testimony?  Did you discuss with them the

12     subject of your testimony?

13        A.   I didn't.

14        Q.   Would you please look at the document that we started analysing

15     yesterday.  You can find it in our binder under tab 25.

16             In the upper right corner is it -- does it say P232?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Yesterday, we mentioned Mr. Nihad Filipovic, who was a

19     representative of the Liberal Party.  Do you know which party that was?

20     Was it represented in the parliament, that is, in the Municipal Assembly

21     in Kljuc?

22             Would you please repeat your answer.  We didn't hear it.

23        A.   No, it wasn't in the parliament.

24        Q.   Is Mr. Nihad Filipovic from Kljuc?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6138

 1        Q.   Did I understand this statement, this report concerning him, did

 2     I understand it well:  It says here that Nihad Filipovic basically

 3     criticised some moves of the SDA and HDZ parties concerning the

 4     recognition of the sovereignty of Bosnia and that the SDA and the MBO did

 5     not agree with that position.  Am I interpreting this report correctly?

 6        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you.  It's not very clear to me what

 7     it says here.

 8        Q.   Was the main topic of this meeting between the SDA and the MBO

 9     the initiative to establish Kljuc municipality by assemblymen who were

10     representatives of the SDA and the MBO?  Was this the topic discussed?

11        A.   It was that topic.

12        Q.   They also discussed the possibility of organising a plebiscite

13     that was to be held on the 15th and 16th of February concerning the

14     creation of an independent Muslim municipality of Kljuc.  That is stated

15     in a paragraph on the second page of this document.

16             Was this plebiscite also discussed?

17        A.   It wasn't exactly a plebiscite.

18        Q.   We didn't hear your answer.

19        A.   It was supposed to be a referendum of the citizens of Kljuc

20     municipality.

21        Q.   Where was this debate of the representatives of the SDA and MBO

22     held in Kljuc, in what location?  Was it at the culture hall, Mr. Egrlic?

23        A.   I think so, but I don't remember any longer whether it was the

24     conference room of the council or whether it was the culture hall.

25        Q.   Yesterday, we discussed certain political initiatives at the

Page 6139

 1     level of the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina and the assistance of the

 2     international community in overcoming the problem, and you told me then

 3     that it was a widely known fact and that they proposed a possibility of

 4     creating cantons.  Do you remember that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   The initiative from this meeting, is it basically a follow-up of

 7     the initiative started by the international community and other political

 8     factors in Bosnia and Herzegovina, according to your opinion?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear the answer.

10             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] We have concluded with this

11     document.

12             [In English] Could we have a number for this exhibit, please.

13             JUDGE HALL:  This hasn't been previously admitted, has it?  No.

14     It's now admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D43, Your Honours.

16             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, we didn't hear your last answer to my question

18     whether the initiative of the SDA and the MBO was a follow-up of the

19     initiative coming from the international community and other political

20     factors in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Please tell me what was your answer to my

21     question for the record.

22        A.   It wasn't a follow-up of that initiative.

23        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, it is beyond dispute that in the Municipal Assembly

24     of Kljuc, based on the results of parliamentary elections held in 1990,

25     the majority of the assemblymen came from the SDS; correct?

Page 6140

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Please tell us what parties were in the opposition in the Kljuc

 3     Municipal Assembly based on the results of those elections.

 4        A.   It was the SDB, as far as I can remember.

 5        Q.   Let us take it one by one.  It's not the SDB.  SDB is an acronym

 6     for another service.

 7             Just a moment, Mr. Egrlic.  I will assist you, and you can

 8     correct me if I'm wrong.

 9             So in the Kljuc Municipal Assembly, the following political

10     parties were in the opposition:  The SDA; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   MBO.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   For the sake of the record, you and I know which parties those

15     were, but to be fully clear, let us say that MBO stands for what?  For

16     Muslim Bosniak Organisation; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Then SDP was also an opposition party.  Those were the members of

19     the former League of Communists; correct?  SDP.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Were the Reformists also represented in the Municipal Assembly?

22        A.   I don't know that they were.

23        Q.   All right.  At any rate, these parties that we enumerated were

24     the parties that had their assemblymen in the Kljuc Municipal Assembly;

25     correct?

Page 6141

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, the SDS as a party, which held an absolute majority, in 1991

 3     adopted a decision on the joining of the then-municipality of Kljuc to

 4     the association of municipalities of Krajina, ARK; right?

 5        A.   That was in 1992.

 6        Q.   The decision was adopted on 1991 on joining the community of

 7     municipalities of Bosnian Krajina, and later on that community was

 8     admitted into the Autonomous Region of Krajina; correct?

 9        A.   But the council or, rather, the Municipal Assembly adopted that

10     decision in 1992.

11        Q.   It's possible that you got confused there a bit.  It was a

12     document of the OTP, and my associates will look it up, and we will

13     clarify that with you.  The time reference is not that important for us.

14     What is important is that the decision was adopted, was voted on based on

15     the parliamentary majority in the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, while you were imprisoned in the military camp in

18     Manjaca, you gave a statement on the 29th of June of 1992, which is in

19     our binder under tab 1.  So would you please take that document.  Our

20     colleague can assist you.  And let us go through it briefly.

21             Yes.  My assistant has just told me that -- that this is P481, a

22     document that has already been admitted.

23             Mr. Egrlic, you have before you a statement; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   At the beginning of the statement it says that sometime in May

Page 6142

 1     1992, a meeting was held in Sanski Most, and the meeting was attend by

 2     Mr. Filipovic, Mr. Islamagic, Mr. Kurbegovic, Mr. Karabeg, Mr. Ismet who

 3     is the secretary, and yourself.  You see that first paragraph, don't you?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   What was the purpose of that meeting, please?  Just briefly.

 6        A.   The meeting was held to look at the political and security

 7     situation.

 8        Q.   What was the function in the SDA of Mr. Redzo Kurbegovic?  What

 9     position did he hold in the SDA?

10        A.   I don't know, but I believe that he was a member of the

11     Executive Board.

12        Q.   Where does he come from?

13        A.   From Sanski Most.

14        Q.   In the following paragraph it says that at that meeting you

15     tabled a motion for Kljuc and Sanski Most municipalities to act together.

16     Please explain.  What did you mean by that?  What did you have in mind

17     when you proposed a joint action?

18        A.   In terms of passing appropriate decisions with regard to

19     disseminating information and so on.

20        Q.   Did you also discuss appropriate military preparations and the

21     organisation of your party in the region?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   In your statement you also talk about the events in Kljuc on the

24     27th of May, the events during which some incidents happened, and we

25     talked about them yesterday.  Is that correct?  Is that the gist of the

Page 6143

 1     second part of your statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Besides the statement that we are just looking at, did you

 4     provide another statement or some other statements to some other security

 5     organs?  Do you remember?

 6        A.   It is possible.

 7        Q.   On page 2 of the same statement there is your signature.  Can you

 8     confirm that this is indeed your statement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   We no longer need this document.  Please look at document under

11     number 22 in our binder of documents, and let's look at it together.

12             Mr. Egrlic, I don't know about the quality of your copy.  Maybe

13     it's not good.  However, does the document start with the following

14     words:  "I, Omer Filipovic"?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I apologise.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in relation to this document, whilst I

18     have no objection, obviously, to Mr. Pantelic asking the witness whether

19     he was aware of events described therein, he obviously can't be asked

20     about anything else that may be said by Mr. Filipovic when he was making

21     a statement to the RS MUP in Manjaca.  Unless he says he's seen the

22     statement before or knew of its contents.

23             MR. PANTELIC:  It's just reference, Your Honour, so we should go

24     to the point [indiscernible].  We shall come to the conclusions.

25             [Interpretation] 2D03-0687 is the reference number of this

Page 6144

 1     document.  Yes.  We have it now.

 2        Q.   As you can see at the very beginning of the statement, the late

 3     Mr. Filipovic speaks about certain political aspects, and then on page 2,

 4     in the first paragraph thereof, it -- you can see the following sentence:

 5              "In that sense, after having established the BH TO staff, we

 6     proposed the following:  We proposed the establishment of a new TO staff

 7     loyal to Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 8             Is this a correct statement in this statement?

 9        A.   As far as the statement is concerned, I didn't read it, so I

10     can't tell you my opinion as to what he stated in it.

11        Q.   But you understand what the Prosecution put to you.  But I'm

12     asking you something else.  Based on your knowledge and your previous

13     testimony, would you say that the sentence that we have just read out

14     precise reflection of the situation involving the TO?  Just say yes or

15     no.

16        A.   I've already spoken about that, and I don't know whether I should

17     speak about that again.  The TO staff was indeed established.

18        Q.   I totally understand you, Mr. Egrlic.  I just need you to say yes

19     or no.  So your answer is yes, is it not?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And then in the lower part of page 2 a reference is made to

22     certain events which took place -- place on the 29th April 1992, about

23     the receipt of a telefax message appointing Mr. Filipovic as the

24     commander of the TO staff.  A reference is also made to the commander

25     Hasan Efendic, who was the commander of the BH TO, and also reference is

Page 6145

 1     made to the instructions for the work of the unit.  Do you remember that

 2     something to that effect did indeed arrive from the BH TO staff?  Just

 3     stay yes or no.

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   On page 3 of the same statement it says that the instructions

 6     envisage, and I'm going to quote:

 7             "We were ordered to prevent the passage of anybody who was not

 8     announced and who was not escorted by the BH MUP."

 9             And further on it says:

10             "I can't remember the exact wording, but I believe that it was

11     recommend that all available means should be used in the discharge of the

12     task.  The directive remained in Pudin Han, and I informed about the

13     contents thereof.  The president of the board, Asim Egrlic."

14             Is that correct?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   However, you personally know that at the TO Kljuc meetings and

17     the meetings of the staff there were discussions about certain activities

18     regarding the activities of the Kljuc TO?

19        A.   There were no discussions about activities.  TO had nothing but

20     the staff.  No units were ever established as part of the TO.  The

21     situation which followed prevented the full establishment of the

22     Territorial Defence.

23        Q.   However, Mr. Egrlic, of course as you've already stated, there

24     were armed conflicts with the Serb forces towards the end of May and

25     thereafter in the course of 1992; is that correct?

Page 6146

 1        A.   Yes, there were conflicts, and I've already spoken about that.

 2     There were village guards guarding their own homes, their own streets,

 3     and they were involved in an incident with the Serbian police and the

 4     army.

 5        Q.   Yes.  We've already heard about that, but while you were

 6     incarcerated in Gradiska and Manjaca military camp, so I believe that you

 7     spoke with people from Kljuc and you heard that there was fighting going

 8     on in the Kljuc sector; is that right?

 9        A.   There was fighting.  The Serb police and army opened fire in

10     order to intimidate the population and chase them away from their houses,

11     but there was no proper combat.

12        Q.   And there were no killed on any of the two sides, according to

13     you.

14        A.   Yes, we've spoken about that.  We spoke about that yesterday.

15     There was that one incident, and there was no other fighting after that.

16        Q.   Look at page 12 in this statement, please.  In paragraph 3,

17     page 12, it says that on the 28th of May the author of this statement

18     asked for the imprisoned soldiers to be brought across Manjaca and

19     Pudin Han.  And further on he stated that the prisoners were in the area.

20             Did you know that the imprisoned Serbian soldiers were in the

21     region on the 28th of May?  Yes or no.

22        A.   I heard of that.

23        Q.   The next paragraph in same statement on the same page, page 12,

24     it says that Mr. Filipovic as the TO commander and a politician

25     considered the possibility, the scheme, and the manner to organise

Page 6147

 1     people's authority in an area and that he, himself, drafted such a

 2     proposal and discussed that proposal with Asim Egrlic.

 3             Do you remember those discussions was Mr. Filipovic?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   You do not recall that the structure of the authorities of the

 6     Muslim municipality of Kljuc, which was an initiative we spoke about, was

 7     divided into several different sectors being the executive power,

 8     internal affairs, All People's Defence, and everything else that

 9     constitutes a self-government in a local commune?  Do you remember that?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   But you -- do you remember that you, yourself, were proposed as

12     in charge of executive power?

13        A.   No, I don't remember that.  I was already a member of the

14     executive power.  I was its president.

15        Q.   But that's why I am telling you all this.  We're talking about

16     the Muslim municipality of Kljuc that we have already spoken about,

17     because you were supposed to hold that position.

18        A.   No.  No.  I don't remember that.

19        Q.   And Amir Avdic, I suppose that he was the captain who was the

20     commander of the Muslim units there.  Was he supposed to play a role in

21     the All People's Defence sector or in the TO?  Do you remember that?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   And do you remember that Mr. Atif Dzafic should have played a

24     role in the internal affairs sector?

25        A.   He was the police commander in Kljuc, the commander of the joint

Page 6148

 1     forces.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Therefore, according to you, these are the elements and

 3     events which do not reflect the truth.  They do not reflect what was

 4     really going on in Kljuc.  Yes or no?

 5        A.   This part no.

 6        Q.   Is there any part of this statement that we have just discussed

 7     that you agree with?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You agree that an instruction came from the BH TO mentioning

10     Hasan Efendic and so on so forth?

11        A.   I said that I was not aware of any such initiative.

12        Q.   Did you hear from anybody else that there was an initiative of

13     that kind?

14        A.   No.  I heard it here, not before.

15        Q.   So when you came here, I suppose that you do not doubt the

16     veracity of this document or the source that says that something like

17     that existed.

18        A.   No, I can't say anything.  I've not seen any documents, and I

19     don't know anything about that.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, Mr. Egrlic, let's now talk about something else.

21     Besides the statement that you provided in Manjaca, did you provide any

22     other statements to the security organs of the Serb authorities, be it

23     the military or the police authorities?  Do you remember?

24        A.   It is possible that I did.

25        Q.   Please look at a document under tab 24 in our binder.  It is a

Page 6149

 1     65 ter 3016 document.

 2             In the heading of this document it says "The public security

 3     station in Kljuc."  Right, Mr. Egrlic?

 4        A.   Yes, but I never gave any statement to the station.

 5        Q.   Wait a minute.  We will get to that.  The document is entitled

 6     "Official Note;" correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In the work of the organs of the interior, official note is a

 9     document which contains a number of official information, pieces compiled

10     by authorised official, the policeman concerning an event or an interview

11     with a person.  Would you agree with me?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   All right.  So in this official note, in the first part of this

14     document it says that you stated that there was an idea to create the

15     municipality of Bosnian Kljuc and that there was some discussion of

16     establishing the TO of Bosnian Kljuc, because you and political officials

17     believed that there would be a division of the municipality of Kljuc into

18     two municipalities, the Bosnian Kljuc and Kljuc municipality.  Would that

19     be a correct representation of the events that we discussed?

20        A.   No, not exactly.  The person who wrote this did it as it suited

21     them.

22        Q.   All right.  But in the continuation of this official note it says

23     that the precondition for that was a political agreement among all

24     parties, the SDA, the MBO, and the SDS; correct?

25        A.   I didn't state things that are mentioned here.  I don't know who

Page 6150

 1     wrote this.

 2        Q.   Well, I'm just asking you whether this corresponds to the

 3     activities and events and initiatives on the division of the

 4     municipality, naturally based on the political consensus.

 5        A.   Yes, there were initiatives, and we discussed it already.  It was

 6     an initiative.  That's all it was, nothing more than that.

 7        Q.   All right.  And then in some previous discussions and based on

 8     some previous information you were of the opinion that you, as you say,

 9     did not talk to Muslims from SJB Kljuc who did not sign loyalty to the

10     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but that you suppose that

11     they would agree to join the Staff Command because they had become

12     jobless and would do it in order to provide for their families.  This is

13     correct, isn't it?

14        A.   No, it isn't.  I never stated that.

15        Q.   And did you ever state, as it is written here in this official

16     note, at the end of page 1, that you found the support for the TO of

17     Bosnian Kljuc in the decision of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc where it

18     says that there could be village guards in the territory of the Municipal

19     Assembly of Kljuc?  Is this a correct formulation of some of your

20     previous statements?  Yes or no?

21        A.   No.  No.  The staff commander was appointed pursuant to an order,

22     Hasan Efendic.  We've already covered that.

23        Q.   But there was a decision of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc on

24     placing village guards; right?

25        A.   Yes, there was.

Page 6151

 1        Q.   What was your response?  All right.  All right.  I have it.

 2             Now, on page 2 of this official note it says that pursuant to a

 3     request of the TO BiH on creating the Bosnian Kljuc TO, that pursuant to

 4     that directive the late Mr. Filipovic was appointed, and he was a

 5     lieutenant - that was his rank - and also an official.

 6        A.   No.  He was appointed commander of TO of Kljuc municipality, not

 7     Bosnian Kljuc.

 8        Q.   Well, we've covered that already.  We see that your name is here

 9     underneath it as well as the name of Captain Abdic, and in your previous

10     interviews with authorised officials you stated that village guards grew

11     into platoons and companies and within the framework of the TO

12     organisation.  Correct or not?

13        A.   No.  That never really turned into reality.

14        Q.   But let us just state for the record that there had been such

15     ideas about the organisation of the TO; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In the following paragraph they say that there were some

18     activities and initiatives concerning the arming.  You testified in other

19     cases by saying that there had been cases of individual weapons

20     purchased; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You also had that there was some aid coming from abroad for --

23     from people working abroad who sent money as they could.

24        A.   It was the money for humanitarian assistance.

25        Q.   But here you said at some point that this humanitarian assistance

Page 6152

 1     funds were used to procure ammunition; correct?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And then you speak of an occasion where you travelled to Zagreb,

 4     to Croatia, to meet some people from Switzerland.  And then you also

 5     mentioned Alija Bilic, that you travelled in your car, and that on that

 6     occasion you took over 18.000 Swiss francs.

 7        A.   That was the assistance they provided for humanitarian aid.

 8        Q.   Did you take that money then to Sarajevo, to the SDA party?  Did

 9     you turn that money over for those purposes?

10        A.   I didn't.

11        Q.   Now, as for the weapons in possession of the TO and people from

12     your environment, were there any automatic weapons called ZAGI?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Was there a Slovenian automatic rifle?

15        A.   I'm not aware of that.

16        Q.   On page 3 it says that after being wounded, you buried these

17     Slovenian automatic rifle in the vicinity of your house.  Do you remember

18     burying it?

19        A.   I didn't bury it.  Somebody invented this.  God forbid that I

20     should do that while being wounded.

21        Q.   Well, did somebody else bury it?

22        A.   Who could have done it?  These are invent stories.

23        Q.   Well, some of your people perhaps.

24        A.   Sure.

25        Q.   Then in the next paragraph you say that there was a meeting in

Page 6153

 1     Pudin Han on the 26th of May, in the culture hall.  Do you remember

 2     whether there was such a meeting?

 3        A.   It's possible.  I don't remember.  I don't know the date.

 4        Q.   And the culture hall was supposed to be the headquarters of your

 5     TO staff; correct?

 6        A.   And it was once they expelled us from the municipality.

 7        Q.   And then following that it says that after the incident and

 8     attack on the policemen of Kljuc you went home, that you were awoken by

 9     Dr. Kapetanovic, and then you go on to describe this event in which you

10     wounded yourself.  Do you remember that?

11        A.   Yes, I did wound myself.  It's clear.  I have mentioned it a

12     number of times so far.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we have the next page up, please.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Pantelic, you have four minutes left.

15             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  With kind permission

16     of -- of Trial Chamber, if couple minutes more I would need to clarify

17     some issues.  I hope I will have your support, Your Honour, in light of

18     the overall attitude of the Defence towards the time and judicial

19     economy, because we were really very, very cooperative with that regard,

20     and we have some credits on our -- thank you so much, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE HALL:  So far I never saw this as a bank from which you to

22     deposit and withdraw time, but I take your point, Mr. Pantelic.

23             MR. PANTELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm really much obliged.

24             I would like to ask that given that this document has to do with

25     certain events, and I am aware of the fact that Mr. Egrlic doesn't say

Page 6154

 1     so --

 2             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] It's in the package.

 3             MR. PANTELIC:  65 ter, yeah.

 4             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] It's in the 92 ter

 5     package.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document has been admitted as

 7     P960.27.

 8             MR. PANTELIC:  So this is a part of 92 ter package.  Thank you.

 9     Thank you very much.  Thank you very much.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Egrlic, can we revisit the issue of the

11     voting in Kljuc municipality.  Let me see which document that is.  That's

12     65 ter 785.  I'm not quite sure.  It is in the OTP binder, Mr. Egrlic,

13     and -- just a moment, please.  31 in the OTP binder.

14             It's not terribly important.  These documents are self-evident,

15     but for the sake of the transcript, we need to be quite specific.

16             Does it say 16th of January 1991?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   All right.  In the preamble of this document it says that on the

19     10th session held on the 26th of December, 1991, the following decision

20     was adopted.  Can you confirm that?

21        A.   Well, a number of documents are quoted here.

22        Q.   That's fine, Mr. Egrlic.  None of that is important.  Let us

23     speed this up.  Time flies, as you know.

24             So in the preamble of this document --

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Pantelic, both versions, English and B/C/S,

Page 6155

 1     say 1992.  You're talking about 1991.  The translation is.

 2             MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour

 3     Judge Delvoie.  In the preamble of this document, I want to establish the

 4     following fact with Mr. Egrlic:  It says that at the 10th session of

 5     Kljuc Municipal Assembly which was held on the 26th of December, 1991,

 6     the following decision was adopted.

 7        Q.   Can you confirm that, Mr. Egrlic?

 8        A.   In 1992.

 9        Q.   Well, what does it say in the preamble?

10        A.   The 16th of January, 1992.

11        Q.   Yes, but now if you go a bit lower.  Maybe I'm not specific

12     enough when I say in the preamble.  I mean the first paragraph.  It says

13     "Pursuant to article 218," and so on "The Kljuc municipal assembly at its

14     10th session held on the 26th of December, 1991, adopted the following

15     decision."

16             Do you see that now?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So what is the point of this document?  And you are somebody who

19     worked in the administration, so you know this.  This decision was filed

20     in 1992, but it was adopted at the 10th session of Kljuc municipality in

21     December of 1991; right?

22        A.   That's what it says here.  However, in these documents we can see

23     a number of such decisions.

24        Q.   No.  I just ask you for this decision.  We will be concluding

25     soon.

Page 6156

 1             Mr. Egrlic, just give me another couple of pieces of information.

 2     Naturally, if you have them.  And this is the sort of information I need

 3     from you:  Can you see me?  I'm not sure about the camera.  I don't know

 4     if you can see my directly.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, tell me, please, do you know a person called

 7     Bender, Esad?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Was he a member of the Crisis Staff?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Who was Bender, Esad?  What was his position?  And just briefly.

12     In what capacity did you know him?

13        A.   He is a relative of mine.  That's how I knew him, as a relative.

14     He held no official positions.

15        Q.   Does he live in Kljuc nowadays?

16        A.   No.  He was killed at Manjaca.

17        Q.   Very well.  Tell me, please --

18        A.   It's not very well.

19        Q.   Well, that's not how I meant it, naturally, and my deepest

20     condolences.  That's not what I meant.

21             Do you know Ismet Muratagic?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Did he hold any position in the TO organisation, in the structure

24     of the TO?

25        A.   Well, I knew him as a technician who -- a TV technician, but I

Page 6157

 1     don't know what posts he held.

 2        Q.   Did he participate in combat operations in Kljuc?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   Do you know a person by the name Muharem Posavljak?  He was the

 5     imam or hodza.

 6        A.   Well, I've heard of the name, but I didn't know him personally.

 7        Q.   Did he have any role in the TO structure?

 8        A.   No.  As far as I know, no.

 9        Q.   Did he play any role in the arming, in the supply of weaponry?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Do you know a person, an imam, a religious person,

12     Hodza Emir Seferovic?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Have you ever heard of name?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Fadil Pajic?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Have you ever heard of him?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Do you know Islam Ikeljic?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Egrlic.  I have no further questions for you.

23     This completes my cross-examination.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Pantelic.  Is there cross-examination

25     on behalf of Stanisic?

Page 6158

 1             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination?

 3             MS. KORNER:  A have couple of questions, Your Honour.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

 5        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, you were asked for the name of the reserve policeman

 6     that you recognised who was one of the people who beat you up.  Do you

 7     remember that?  This is at yesterday's transcript page 6104, and you said

 8     that it was Boro Ceko.  Do you remember that?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

10     The interpreter did not hear it.

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   I'm sorry.  You'll have to lean towards the microphone again.

13        A.   Yes, I do remember.

14        Q.   Do you remember the other names of the people who were involved

15     in beating you up?

16        A.   Well, I can't recall their names right now, but I do know the

17     people.  I've met them in the past.

18        Q.   Sorry, I interrupted.  I'm going to ask you to have a look,

19     please, at a document.

20             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please, 65 ter 2852.

21             Your Honours, I'm afraid to say that I forgot to tell my

22     Case Manager, apparently, that I was going to use this document, so it's

23     not in e-court -- oh, it is.  Oh, he doesn't have a copy of it, of

24     course.  Right.

25                           [Prosecution and Case Manager confer]

Page 6159

 1             MS. KORNER:  I'm asked if you can switch to -- the technicians

 2     down there can switch the e-court screen, whatever.

 3             Can we have up --

 4        Q.   Well, firstly, the document is -- I'll find the English version.

 5     Right.  The document is dated the 14th of July, 1992, addressed to

 6     Banja Luka CSB from Kljuc, and the subject is "Overview of reserve police

 7     personnel and operatives engaged in the month of June 1992."

 8             Can you --

 9             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up on the screen -- it won't be in

10     English -- well, perhaps the second page in English just so we can see

11     what's happening, and in B/C/S.  Because it's just a list of names,

12     Your Honours, we've only translated -- it says, List of members of the

13     police reserve force of Kljuc SJB, and then we've done two.  Could you

14     have please -- could we have up the second page in B/C/S up on the screen

15     for Mr. Egrlic.

16             Is that the second page?  Okay.  It should be page 3 at the

17     top -- page 2 at the top, so maybe the third page in B/C/S, please.  Can

18     we focus in on number 48, please.

19        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, is that the person you were referring to?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you recognise -- while we're on this page, and I'm sorry we

22     couldn't get you the document in advance, do you recognise any of the

23     other people named on this page as anybody who was involved in your

24     beating?

25        A.   I don't recognise anyone.

Page 6160

 1        Q.   All right.  Then I won't pursue this any further.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may this document be admitted and

 3     marked, please.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, I mean, I must object to this.  First

 6     of all, this is the list for June.  The witness was arrested in May.  He

 7     discuss about [indiscernible], how it's relevant with this witness.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, he was asked by Defence counsel on

 9     behalf of Mr. Zupljanin, Do you remember the names of any of the people

10     you said were in the reserve police who beat you up?  And he said, Yes,

11     this man Boro Ceko.  And when we check the list of the Special Police, I

12     believe that's who's working in June, it says this man's name.  It seems

13     to me that's -- that's admissible to corroborate his story.  Whether or

14     not it was May or June, it seems to me a point that Your Honours can take

15     into account, but it doesn't stop it being admitted.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P961, Your Honour.

19             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, I've only got one other question for you.  You said

21     on a number of occasions in answers to questions from Mr. Pantelic, both

22     yesterday and today, that in -- I'll just get the reference.

23             You were asked about what was put to you as combat operations -

24     page 6115 - in Kljuc.  You were asked:

25             "Were there any combat operations in the territory of Kljuc when

Page 6161

 1     the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived from Sanski Most?  Were there any combat

 2     operations at the time?"

 3             And you said, "No."

 4             And then later on at page 6126 you were asked again yesterday:

 5             "Who was putting up resistance?  Who participated in that?

 6             "Nobody did," you said.  "On the 27th of May they entered without

 7     having fired a bullet.  They entered, and they took up all strategically

 8     significant locations, and it wasn't until later that Abdic separated

 9     himself and moved on to Golaja."

10             And you were asked about this again today, but, Mr. Egrlic, just

11     to understand it, when you say there is no -- there were no combat

12     operations on the 27th of May and thereabouts in Kljuc, can we just make

13     it clear, what exactly do you mean?

14        A.   Well, there were no combat operations on the 7th of May.  On the

15     7th of May, the 6th Krajina Brigade walked into Kljuc and took up all --

16     and occupied Kljuc, took up all the significant positions and -- whereas

17     on the 27th of May there were some incidents, and we mention those.

18     These incidents occurred in areas where Bosniaks lived when the police

19     and the military went in there in order to disarm them, because on the

20     previous days there was this notice that was broadcast on the radio that

21     everyone should hand in their weapons, and in case of noncompliance that

22     there would be certain measures taken, and then a special unit was

23     formed, and when they walked into Rasulje this incident occurred.  The

24     similar occurred in Pudin Han, in the Busija area.  And on the 26th a

25     group of Serb soldiers walked into Crljeni, a Bosniak village, with

Page 6162

 1     certain intentions.  They were arrested, and then later on they were

 2     released.  And, in short, that's about it.

 3        Q.   Yes.  Yes, I see.  Yes, Mr. Egrlic, thank you very much indeed.

 4     I have no further questions.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Egrlic, that concludes your testimony, and

 6     you're now released as a witness.  We wish you a safe journey back to

 7     your home, and we take note of the personal hardship that you suffered in

 8     the history of this matter.  We wish you all the best for the future.

 9     Thank you.

10                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

11             Ms. Korner.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE HALL:  He's standing by there --

14             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers]... take the break.  He's

15     probably somewhere there, but they're going to have to empty the room.  I

16     mean, this is another videolink witness, so it may be as well to take the

17     break now.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, that's what I was going to suggest.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  But, as far as I know, he's there, in the

20     building.

21             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

22                           --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, before the witness is ushered into

25     the room, we would like to go in a private session to discuss one aspect

Page 6163

 1     which I discussed with my colleague, and I think it's appropriate that we

 2     are in private session.  Thank you very much.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6164











11 Pages 6164-6170 redacted. Private session.















Page 6171

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 3                           WITNESS:  ATIF DZAFIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we have the witness's solemn declaration,

 7     please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

11             Good afternoon, sir.  Can I have your name, please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Atif Dzafic, from Kljuc.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Dzafic, what is your date of birth, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 15th of April,

15     1950, in Sanica, the municipality of Kljuc.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And what is your profession?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a teacher of defence and

18     self-protection.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your ethnicity, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am -- I'm Muslim by ethnicity and

21     by religion.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Did you testify before, previously

23     before this Tribunal?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.  I testified in

25     October 2002, in the case against Brdjanin and the late General Talic.

Page 6172

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Then I think we can ask the

 2     Prosecutor to move on.  Thank you.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           Examination by Ms. Pidwell:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Dzafic.  Are you able to hear me?

 6        A.   Yes, I can hear you very well, and I wish you good afternoon too.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, do you have a folder of documents that have been

 8     sent by the Prosecution?  Are they -- can they be put in front of you,

 9     please, by the court registrar.

10        A.   Yes, I have just received it.

11        Q.   Throughout the course of this afternoon, sir, I'll be referring

12     you to some documents in that folder, but before I do, we have some

13     formal matters that we need to -- to go through because of the manner in

14     which you're testifying today.

15             Do you recall making a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

16     on the 17th, 19th, and 20th of February in 2001?

17        A.   Yes, I remember that statement, the statement that I provided at

18     the time to The Hague Tribunal investigator Paul Grady on the 17th, 19th

19     and 20 February 2001.

20        Q.   And you'll find that statement, sir, at tab 1 in that folder.

21     You don't need to -- you don't need to look at it now.  But do you recall

22     also making an addendum to that statement on the 27th of July, 2001,

23     which you'll find at tab -- behind tab number 3.

24        A.   I remember the addendum.  Actually, it was, rather, a corrigendum

25     to that statement that I originally provided.

Page 6173

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And when you came to The Hague to testify in the

 2     Brdjanin case in 2002, do you recall meeting with an investigator before

 3     you testified and making a supplemental list of some minor changes at

 4     that time?  You'll find that in tab -- behind tab 2 of your binder there.

 5        A.   Yes, I remember that addendum that I also provided to The Hague

 6     investigator in The Hague.

 7        Q.   Sir, when I met with you in December 2009, were you given the

 8     opportunity to review your statement and the addendums at that time?

 9        A.   Yes.  I had another opportunity to read the entire statement and

10     it's addenda, yes.

11        Q.   And, sir, do you recall speaking with me about some additional

12     changes to some dates and spelling mistakes in the -- in the statement at

13     that time?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes, I remember these addenda as well that I made with you.

15        Q.   Taking into account all of these -- these documents that I've

16     referred to just now, do you confirm that your statement accurately

17     reflects your evidence and that you would provide the same answers to

18     questions if you were asked under oath about these matters today?

19        A.   Yes.  I would give the same answers together with these addenda.

20        Q.   Sir, do you recall testifying in the case of Brdjanin in 2002?

21        A.   Yes.  I think it was in October of 2002, in The Hague.

22        Q.   And when you came to The Hague, you testified under a Rule

23     92 bis, which means that you -- your statement was tendered at that time,

24     and then you were asked questions by the Defence lawyers under

25     cross-examination.  Do you recall that?

Page 6174

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions under cross-examination

 3     today, would your answers be the same?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  I wonder if I could formally tender his statement,

 7     which is 65 ter number 9016.01.  The supplementary -- or the addendum,

 8     which is 65 ter 10247; the supplementary information sheet of 16 October

 9     2002, which is 65 ter number 10246; the proofing note from December 2009

10     which is 65 ter number 9016.02; and this testimony in the Brdjanin case,

11     which has now been uploaded, Your Honours, and is 65 ter number 9016.03.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the five documents will be

16     Exhibit P962.1 through P962.5.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm so sorry.  Your Honours, we -- oh.  The

18     LiveNote was stuck for a moment.  Thank you very much.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  There are also a number of associated exhibits in

20     this witness's 92 ter package, Your Honours, which I referred to in his

21     statement.  They are predominantly photographs.  There's two photographs

22     which are photospreads of members of the SJB and the Crisis Staff in

23     Kljuc at the time.  And there are six photographs of Manjaca camp,

24     various views and photographs of inmates there.  There's also his -- a

25     loyalty oath which he refers to in a statement, and his Red Cross

Page 6175

 1     registration form from Manjaca camp.  They're all specifically referred

 2     to in his statement and form part of his 92 ter package, and I'd ask that

 3     they each be admitted at this juncture, if I could read out the 65 ter

 4     numbers.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  I thought they were included in the package.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Those items which have not yet been assigned a

 8     number will be assigned a number by the Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The package will be

10     Exhibit P963.1 through P963.11.

11             MS. PIDWELL:

12        Q.   Sir, that's the -- that's the formalities done, and because your

13     statement and prior testimony now form part of the evidence in this case,

14     I don't have to ask you matters -- about matters that are already in

15     evidence.  But I'd like to ask you a few matters, questions about other

16     matters today, expanding on your testimony, and to ask you to view some

17     documents.

18             Sir, firstly, I'd like to ask you some questions about your time

19     as the commander of the Kljuc SJB before the split of the MUP.  Now, we

20     know from your evidence that you were the police commander, firstly from

21     1982 until 1990, and then you were reappointed by the SDA in 1991.  Is

22     that correct?

23        A.   Yes, precisely so.

24        Q.   And can you recall when Vinko Kondic was appointed to become the

25     chief of the SJB in Kljuc?

Page 6176

 1        A.   Mr. Kondic was appointed chief of SJB in Kljuc later, towards the

 2     end of July of that year.  I was at the post of the commander of that

 3     same SJB station.

 4        Q.   What year are you referring to, sir?

 5        A.   1991.  Second half of 1991, June or July.  It is then that

 6     Vinko Kondic was appointed chief of SJB in Kljuc.

 7        Q.   And you had been the commander for some eight years prior to

 8     this.  Was he employed by the police in any way before his appointment as

 9     chief?

10        A.   Before coming there, he did not work in the police.  He worked in

11     some companies.  I think that he worked in a construction company in

12     Kljuc prior to coming to this position.  He had no police experience.  He

13     started acquiring it once he was appointed to this position.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, are you able to recall approximately how many

15     members of the active police were -- formed part of the Kljuc SJB in

16     early 1991 -- sorry, early 1992?

17        A.   In early 1992, at the police station which was then called SJB

18     Kljuc, was two police detachments in some other locations.  We had a

19     total of 45 active police members.

20        Q.   You've referred to the -- some other locations.  Could you name

21     those locations, please?

22        A.   Within the SJB Kljuc there were two detachments, branch offices,

23     in Sanica and Ribnik.

24        Q.   And did these branch offices have an actual police station, a

25     building?

Page 6177

 1        A.   Yes.  These detachments had their own building, and they had

 2     their own leader heading them.  It was a squad commander, but in the

 3     chain of command that squad commander comes below both the police

 4     commander and chief of SJB.

 5        Q.   And in terms of distance, how far was the -- was the branch of

 6     the Sanica substation from the Kljuc SJB?

 7        A.   About 20 or so kilometres.  Both detachments were at that

 8     distance, approximately, from the SJB in Kljuc.  Fifteen to 20

 9     kilometres.

10        Q.   And were these substations full-time substations, or were they

11     just part-time ones?

12        A.   These branch offices or detachments had regular duty hours in

13     eight-hour shifts for the entire 24 hours.  So it was from 0 to

14     800 hours, from 800 hours to 1600 hours, and from 1600 hours to

15     2400 hours.  In addition to this regular duty service, other services

16     were established as necessary, and these activities took place outside of

17     the building as necessary.  For example, traffic inspection, patrolling,

18     and so on.

19        Q.   Do you recall who was the squad commander of the Sanica

20     substation in early 1992?

21        A.   In early 1992, squad commander in Sanica was Mr. Milan Tomic, who

22     had replaced the previous squad commander, Sejdo Adjimovic [phoen], who

23     had retired.

24        Q.   And what was Milan Tomic's ethnicity?

25        A.   Milan Tomic was a Serb.  He came from the Serb ethnic community.

Page 6178

 1        Q.   And do you recall who was the squad commander at the Ribnik

 2     substation at this time?

 3        A.   Mr. Dusan Stanarevic.

 4        Q.   And what was his ethnicity?

 5        A.   He was a Serb, of Serb ethnicity.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I want to ask you some questions now about the

 7     check-points which were set up around Kljuc towards the beginning of

 8     1992.

 9             Firstly, do you recall when the check-points were first

10     established?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, the check-points were established in

12     the second half of 1991, starting in the fall of 1991.

13        Q.   And do you recall how that came about?  Did -- did an order come

14     from above for -- for check-points to be established?  Or can you explain

15     how -- how that came about, please.

16        A.   I don't remember.  I did not see those orders, but from the

17     colleagues who were in the higher positions I learned that there would be

18     several check-points established at the entry point into Kljuc, into the

19     town of Kljuc.

20        Q.   And do you -- do you recall who was tasked to man these

21     check-points?  Was it police or military or military police?

22        A.   I remember an informal conversation when Mr. Kondic, as chief of

23     the police station, talked to the deputy commander, Dragan Stojicic,

24     about the setting up of these check-points and the locations where they

25     would be placed and the markings and so on.

Page 6179

 1        Q.   Do you recall where the check-points were in -- in your

 2     municipality?

 3        A.   In Kljuc municipality there were check-points at Cadjavica, the

 4     intersection towards Banja Luka; then in Rudenice settlement, which is

 5     just before the entry into the town of Kljuc; and then in a place called

 6     Busija, which is at the point where one leaves Kljuc; then at the

 7     intersection for Sanski Most, which is Pudin Han; and at the intersection

 8     for Sanica, which is in a location called Velagici.  And in addition to

 9     that there was a check-point in Sanica itself at the location near the

10     river of Sanica, at the intersection leading to Donja Sanica.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to ask you now to look at a photograph.

12     It's in tab 51, so it's the last document in possibly your second binder.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  Can I just check the ERN with the Court Officer.

14     R093-0967.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 37.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  And it's 65 ter number 10263.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It's also Exhibit P934, Your Honours.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  We anticipate he'll mark this, so we may need

19     another P number for it.

20        Q.   Sir, if you just have a look at this photograph.  Are you able to

21     identify the main road, the main road to the left of the photograph?

22        A.   Yes, I can recognise it.

23        Q.   And can you please indicate whether the town of Kljuc is to the

24     top of the photograph or elsewhere.

25        A.   I see the road which passes through the town of Kljuc, through

Page 6180

 1     the town itself, and then there is a road which passes above, which was a

 2     road normally taken by trucks.  It's a circular road going around the

 3     town.

 4        Q.   And are you able to identify anything in -- in the middle of the

 5     photograph?  Do you see the white markings beside the road?  Do you

 6     recognise that?

 7        A.   In the middle I see the building of the police station.  Police

 8     station building, and then across from it is the courthouse.  The

 9     municipal building, the playground, the elementary school.  So these were

10     the most significant buildings in the centre.  And then further above are

11     the new -- newly constructed settlements.

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  If I could just ask the court officer to read the

14     number at the top right-hand side of the photograph that the witness is

15     looking at, please.

16             I'm sorry, Your Honours.  It appears that the witness is looking

17     at a different photograph than to what we had anticipated.  The digit

18     is -- there's one digit wrong, so I'll just leave that matter for the

19     time being.

20        Q.   Sir, the photograph that you have - thank you for that - we have

21     the -- I'm not sure what you've been given now.  It was a different

22     photograph than what I was looking at, and so we just need to check with

23     the Registrar to make sure we're both literally on the same page, and

24     we'll go back to that document in a little while.

25             Sir, going back to the check-points, did you ever go through the

Page 6181

 1     check-point at Velagici?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And can you tell us, please, how far that check-point was from

 4     the school at Velagici?

 5        A.   In the territory of Velagici local commune, the building of the

 6     old elementary school was some 50 metres from the road, which was at the

 7     intersection for Sanica.

 8        Q.   Sorry, sir.  Could you just repeat how many metres from the road?

 9        A.   From the main road some 50 to 70 metres, from the intersection.

10     Well, perhaps up to 100 metres.  I never measured it.  From the

11     check-point in Velagici.

12        Q.   And do you know if this check-point at Velagici was staffed by

13     police from Kljuc or the substations?

14        A.   In the beginning, the check-points were manned by mixed teams of

15     active and reserve policemen.  However, after some time members of the

16     army started coming to the check-points, who then manned those

17     check-points together with policemen.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And was -- was it the job of the policemen and

19     soldiers who were manning these check-points to stop every vehicle that

20     was going past, or was it in their discretion to choose which ones to

21     stop?

22        A.   You know, it's hard to be quite specific here.  Which vehicle

23     would be stopped and what measures would be taken in relation to a driver

24     or a vehicle, it is something that depended on the people who manned the

25     check-point.  Certain vehicles which transported uniformed persons would

Page 6182

 1     pass through without any hindrance, whereas others, civilian vehicles,

 2     did not have that advantage.  They did not pass through in that way.

 3     They would be inspected and certain measures would be taken on a

 4     case-by-case basis.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I want to now move to a different topic, and in your

 6     statement you -- you talk about special or manoeuvring units, and I'm

 7     specifically referring to page 8 of your statement.  You talk about --

 8     firstly, you talk about the Red Berets coming to Kljuc prior to the

 9     takeover, so in early 1992.

10             Can you please tell us what your understanding was of the role of

11     the Red Berets who came to Kljuc at this time?

12        A.   Let me put it this way:  Red Berets, a group of some ten of them,

13     members of that unit, appeared in Kljuc sometime in late 1991 and early

14     1992.  According to the information that I had, they had come to assist

15     the active police forces and to prevent incidents and deterioration of

16     public law and order caused by soldiers who returned from the

17     battle-field, were drunk, opened fire, and so on and so forth.  They were

18     billeted in the TO staff, and occasionally, every now and then when I was

19     still a member of the SJB, one of them whom we called Dragan came to see

20     the chief, and sometimes he assisted us active police officers in our

21     daily policing duties.

22             I believe that at first their intentions were good.  They did

23     introduce some order.  They prevented the state of disorder from

24     developing in Kljuc.  What transpired after that I don't know, because

25     already in early May I was removed from my job.

Page 6183

 1             I remember that one of them, Dragan -- we knew most of them by

 2     their nicknames.  They used police vehicles, and that Dragan, he was once

 3     involved in a traffic accident driving one of those police cars.

 4        Q.   And were the Red Berets still in Kljuc at the time when you were

 5     removed from your job?

 6        A.   I wouldn't know that.  On the 7th of May I was forcibly

 7     removed -- or, rather, it was sometime in mid-May when I was forcibly

 8     removed from the police station in Kljuc.  Red Beret members were well

 9     trained, and they instilled fear among those who arrived from the

10     battle-field and caused incidents in the streets, in the cafes, who used

11     weapons in order to intimidate the civilian population and so on and so

12     forth.

13        Q.   So during your last month in your role as commander of the SJB

14     Kljuc, before you were removed, do you recall if the Red Berets were

15     still in the area?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I believe that in February, March, April that that

17     unit was already in Kljuc.  There were some ten of them.  They were on

18     duty in the TO staff in Kljuc on a regular basis.  They were there.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I now want to ask you some questions about the -- the

20     special unit or -- I think you've used the term "manoeuvring unit" in

21     your statement.

22             Firstly, during your time as the commander of the SJB Kljuc,

23     during your eight-year term, did you have these special units, these

24     manoeuvring units, or was this a new thing?

25        A.   I don't remember the exact date when a manoeuvre unit was

Page 6184

 1     established.  But I know that before 1992, four or five years before

 2     that, that there was indeed a manoeuvring unit which consisted of the

 3     active police members who accounted for some 30 per cent, whereas the

 4     rest were reserve police members.  That unit was mostly composed of

 5     younger and somewhat more capable members of the police, and that unit

 6     was headed by an officer from the ranks of the regular police from the

 7     SJB in Kljuc.  That unit could only react and act in the territory of

 8     Kljuc municipality, and its commander co-ordinated its activities with

 9     the chief of the Kljuc SJB.  However, it could also act in other

10     municipality in concert with the unit that belonged to that other

11     municipality.  In that case, that unit would be under the command of a

12     person appointed by the CSB in Banja Luka -- or, rather, the chief and

13     his inner command office.

14             By establishment in Kljuc, it consisted of two platoon of some

15     30 men, and each of the platoons had squads with their particular

16     specialties.  For example, there was a logistics squad, a shooter squad,

17     a squad that was trained to handle -- or to disperse masses in the

18     instances of -- or crowds which gathered.  And there was also a squad of

19     members who were trained as shooters and underwent frequent target

20     exercises.

21             I remember an exercise that had taken place sometime in 1992 when

22     the purpose of our training was to destroy a sabotage group that was

23     allegedly infiltrated into the area of Kljuc, and than unit was under the

24     command of an officer's -- officer from Kljuc, and that training exercise

25     which took place four or five years before 1992 took place somewhere in

Page 6185

 1     the -- in the area of Ribnik.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement you've referred to going to visit

 3     the manoeuvring unit from Kljuc when they were training at Manjaca in

 4     early 1992.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Yes.  I was still station commander, and together with the chief

 6     we went to visit our unit which was in training in Manjaca together some

 7     other manoeuvre units from the territory of Banja Luka.

 8        Q.   Sir, was this -- had this unit been trained at Manjaca before, or

 9     was this the first time that the training had taken place at this

10     facility?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, that was the first time that training

12     took place in Manjaca locality.  For as long as I was in office, I don't

13     remember any other previous training exercise that might have taken place

14     in the territory of Manjaca.

15        Q.   And we know from your statement that -- that you were still the

16     police commander at this time, in February 1992.  Can you tell us when

17     this unit returned from their training, were they deployed while you were

18     still the commander?

19        A.   Our manoeuvring unit participated in that training, during

20     training in Manjaca.  At that time, it was supposed of some 30 per cent

21     active police officers and some 70 per cent of reserve police officers.

22     Upon the end of that training, the active police officers continued

23     performing their normal police -- policing duties, whereas reserve

24     policemen were mostly employees of other companies, schools.  They were

25     teachers of defence, younger persons who, having completed their

Page 6186

 1     training, returned to their original workplaces, to their original jobs,

 2     as far as I know.

 3        Q.   And just finally on this topic, sir, what uniforms did -- did

 4     this unit wear, this special manoeuvring unit?

 5        A.   Members of our manoeuvring unit wore standard flannel uniforms

 6     that were a standard issue for the reserve police.  Those were former JNA

 7     uniforms.

 8        Q.   And please excuse my ignorance, but what colour were they?

 9        A.   Blue.  Blue.  Greyish, olive-drab, blue -- blue, actually.

10     That's the colour.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, if I could ask you to look at a document that's

12     in the binder behind tab 23.  It's 65 ter 791.

13             Sir, you'll see this document is dated the 24th of April, 1992.

14     Are you familiar with a document of this nature?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And can you please tell us what this is?

17        A.   I have not had an occasion to see either this or similar

18     documents.  However, based on what happened, I can provide my comment

19     upon this document.

20             The TO weapons was stored originally in a depot which was housed

21     in the basement of the Kljuc police station.  Sometime in 1990 or

22     thereabouts, new premises were arranged in the municipality building.

23     They were warehouses of the TO there in the basement, and on the first

24     floor there were TO offices, and the weapons that was -- that were stored

25     in the police station in Kljuc were then transferred to the new premises.

Page 6187

 1     However, sometime in early 1992, the weapons were again moved from the

 2     depot in the municipality building which caused a reaction among the

 3     citizens, and I remember that very well.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated] What was the reaction?

 5        A.   They asked me why that was done and who had allowed that to be

 6     done.  Those were weapons intended for the Kljuc TO, and it was moved to

 7     the territory of Mrkonjic.  People wanted to know why.  I didn't have an

 8     answer to that question.  However, I remember very well that morning when

 9     those weapons were transferred from the depot in the municipality

10     building which was under the control of the municipal organs -- or,

11     rather, the TO staff to the territory of Mrkonjic -- or, rather, the

12     territory of Kula where they were stored.

13        Q.   Sir, the document states that an agreement had been reached with

14     the chief of the Kljuc SJB that the weapons be taken out of the storeroom

15     there.  Were you aware of this in your role as commander at the time?

16        A.   I believe that I should have been informed.  However, I was not

17     aware of that agreement, just like I did not know of many other events

18     that I should have been informed about as commander.  I only learned

19     about many of them subsequently from my fellow citizens, from police

20     officers that I commanded.

21        Q.   And it also states in the document that Green Berets were posing

22     a threat at this time.  Were you aware of Green Berets in the area in

23     April 1992?

24        A.   This settlement called Vrhpolje belongs to Sanski Most

25     municipality, so I was not privy to information nor was I in a position

Page 6188

 1     to know.  I was familiar with Velagici.  I never saw nor did I have an

 2     opportunity to see what a member of Green Berets looked like.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, it's about time for a break if this is

 4     a convenient point.

 5             We resume in 20 minutes.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 5.44 p.m.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, I wonder if the document that we were

 9     talking to before the break, which is 65 ter 791, can be admitted,

10     please.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P964, Your Honours.

13             MS. PIDWELL:

14        Q.   Sir, I wonder if you could turn to the document in your binder

15     which is behind tab 21.  Its 65 ter 799.

16             Sir, are you familiar with this document?

17        A.   I see that the document represents a list of people who were

18     issued with weapons.

19        Q.   If you could --

20        A.   At first glance I am familiar with some of the names.

21        Q.   If you could turn to the last page of the document, which is page

22     5 in the B/C/S, and just the same page for the English as we've only had

23     the first page and the last portion translated, and they're on the same

24     page.

25             You'll see a signature and a stamp there.  Sir, do you recognise

Page 6189

 1     the signature?

 2        A.   This is the signature by my former chief of public security

 3     station, Mr. Kondic.  And the stamp is also of the public security

 4     station.

 5        Q.   And the title to the document is that it's a list of persons who

 6     have been issued with weapons.  Did you know of this document before you

 7     were removed from the SJB Kljuc in 1992?

 8        A.   I was not familiar with the document.  I've not seen it at all,

 9     but now I understand that stories among citizens talking about policemen

10     issuing Serbs with weapons, that those stories were actually true.

11        Q.   I'd ask you to look, sir, at page 4 of the B/C/S.  The top half

12     of the page.  Are there any names on there that are familiar to you?

13        A.   I believe that in the second paragraph Grujo Stojicic,

14     Velimir Malesevic, Petko Sukara are members of the reserve police in

15     Sitnica, the local commune of Sitnica.

16             In the first paragraph under number 112, I can see

17     Pero Ljubanic's name.  That was my former school colleague, and he lived

18     in Velagici -- or, rather, in the settlement of Kopjenica.

19        Q.   And did you encounter any of these men after you were detained

20     in -- after June 1992?

21        A.   Two of these men here, Velimir Malesevic, Petko Sukara and

22     perhaps Miro Peric, I saw when I was arrested and incarcerated in the gym

23     at the Sitnica school.  They were members of the reserve force, and they

24     provided security for all of us prisoners in the school.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.

Page 6190

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  If I could have that admitted and marked at this

 2     stage.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, can we have the date of this document,

 5     and year?

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  It doesn't have a date.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Who's document is it?  What's the provenance of

 8     this document?

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  Sir, it's a document; it's stamped and signed,

10     signed by Vinko Kondic, who was the chief of the SJB Kljuc.  It's got the

11     SJB Kljuc stamp on it.  And the Prosecution is tendering it to show that

12     members -- the witness has said that members of the reserve police who

13     were on this list were involved in the detention facilities where he was,

14     and this document shows that they were on this list.  It's the

15     Prosecution's -- accepts that it's not dated, but it's -- by the very

16     nature of the document it's submitted that it's an early 1992 document.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  I can see that.  We can only guess.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  In my submission it will go to the weight that the

19     Chamber puts on this document rather than it's admissibility.

20             MR. KRGOVIC:  What's the base of that, that it's a document from

21     1992?

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, but the witness's oral testimonies provide a

23     context.  Admittedly it doesn't have a date, as the Prosecution can see,

24     but there is a context.  It isn't just a document that is --

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  He's never seen this document, or wasn't aware

Page 6191

 1     about the existence of this document.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Now, that's a different question.

 3             Ms. Pidwell.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, yes.  That's certainly what the witness has

 5     said.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  No, Mr. Krgovic's last point that it is a document

 7     that he has not previously seen.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  No, but he has confirmed the signature and the date

 9     of the document.  He knows Vinko Kondic; he worked with him, and he knows

10     his signature and the stamp of the SJB.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, not he, the witness; he, Mr. Krgovic.

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry, the witness.

13             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] So I come back to --

14             Yes, admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As P965, Your Honour.

16             MS. PIDWELL:

17        Q.   I now want to ask you, sir, some questions about some logbooks

18     and rosters.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  And I've had a discussion with my learned friends.

20     I'm not sure of the complete outcome of our discussion, and I wonder

21     whether I can inquire of my learned friend at this stage whether these

22     documents or these logbooks can go in by agreement once the witness

23     verifies them.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, only if the witness

25     knows something about the events, if he has personal knowledge about the

Page 6192

 1     events mentioned in the diary.  Otherwise, I don't see a point of

 2     tendering this particular document through this particular witness.  So

 3     let's keep to the standard and the instructions that you have provided us

 4     with regard to the witnesses and documents.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  So, Ms. Pidwell, we will see where we go.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  Now, Your Honours have been provided with a hard

 7     copy of -- there are five -- there are five logbooks, and they are

 8     A3-size books which we have copied the relevant portions of and wish to

 9     tender the portions within the indictment period of these books.  Because

10     of the difficulties with the videolink and the nature of this evidence,

11     we've provided hard copies for Your Honours, hopefully which will assist

12     you in following through this course of testimony.

13        Q.   Sir, if I could ask you to look at the document which is at

14     tab 46 of your -- I think it's your second binder.  65 ter 2890.  2890.1,

15     because it's the excerpt of the document.

16             Sir, if you turn to the -- if you have the first page in front of

17     you, which is a photocopy, do you recognise that?

18        A.   Yes, I recognise it.  This is a log-book that existed in every

19     police station.  It's actually a duty roster of every policeman for every

20     month, every date, periods from/to, and the type of policing duty that

21     such a policeman was engaged in.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And we see on the front cover it says it's the Kljuc

23     duty roster from May 1992 until September 1993.  When you worked at the

24     SJB in Kljuc, did you have this kind of log-book to record the rosters of

25     the active and reserve police?

Page 6193

 1        A.   Yes, we had such duty rosters.  Every department or detachment

 2     had such duty rosters.  Every squad had to do it for each policeman,

 3     segregated by dates, days, and the types of duties that they had to

 4     perform each month.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And if you could turn now, please, to the next page,

 6     which should have the number 0629-3199.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Sir, is that your name at number 1?

 9        A.   Yes, my name.  First and last name, number 1.

10        Q.   And we can see at the top it's headed "May 1992," and it lists

11     24 names and that page.  Do you know --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you know the policeman listed beneath your name?

14        A.   Yes, Dragan Stojicic, who was at the position of the deputy

15     commander.  He was the deputy of the commander of the SJB in Kljuc, that

16     is to say, my deputy.

17        Q.   And am I right in saying that along the top we have a list of

18     numbers and they reflect the dates of the month, and then a member of --

19     of the SJB would insert the hours in which each police officer worked

20     beneath the date.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Sir, perhaps you could assist us with some of the terminology or

23     the coding used in this book.  I see the letter D used.  What does that

24     represent?

25        A.   Let me give you some comments about Vejin, Marinko under

Page 6194

 1     number 4.  He has the D designation, and then underneath are the hours

 2     and period when he worked.  D stands for "Duty service," and they mostly

 3     worked in the duty service.  That means that he was on duty at the public

 4     security station.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And can we go down the list to number 17, because I

 6     see a coding there, PUV.  Could you explain that, please.

 7        A.   Under number 17, P stands for "patrol duty," beat policeman duty

 8     that a policeman perform in a settlement, in town, but at any rate,

 9     outside of the security station.  If you look at number 17 and then

10     number 21, then number 24, from the 7th or 8th of May they have

11     designation GO, meaning "annual leave."  The 7th of May was the date when

12     I and other Muslim policemen, since we refused to sign loyalty to the

13     Serbian authorities, were relieved of duty and sent on annual leave in

14     order for us to change our minds.  Some 15 days later, we had to again

15     state whether we accepted to sign loyalty or not.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And are you able to explain some other codings that

17     we see there?  If we start with PUV, what does that represent?

18        A.   PUV.  Let me just say that this log-book should have had a

19     legend, but PUV stands for "check-point at Velagici."  PU is

20     "check-point," and then the next letter is the first letter of the

21     settlement where the check-point was located.

22        Q.   We also see the letters KS.  For example, number 24, on the

23     right-hand side of the page, page 3200.  Now, what does that represent?

24        A.   KS is an acronym for "traffic control."  You see that the

25     policeman under number 24, on the 19th, worked on traffic control duties

Page 6195

 1     from 15 to 2300 hours.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  If you can turn now to another page in that

 3     document which has the number at the top 0629-3203.

 4             Do you have that, sir?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Could you read out for us the heading at the top which is

 7     handwritten.

 8        A.   This shows the list of engaged reserve forces performing police

 9     duties.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like you now to turn further on in the document

11     where the page number is 0629-3215.  It's headed at the top "June 1992."

12             Do you have that, sir?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Perhaps you could explain, sir, the -- where it says under

15     number 1 -- we see the letters [sic] 24.  What does that mean?

16        A.   Under number 1 it says "Dragan Stojicic," and then it says that

17     on the 1st of June he was engaged for 24 hours, and then all the way up

18     until the 13th.  So for 13 days he was engaged for 24 hours, which means

19     that he was somewhere out in the field, outside of Kljuc municipality.

20     That was the rule.  Whenever a policeman was absent and was working out

21     in the field providing security somewhere, then all 24 hours would be

22     counted as working hours and entered in the log-book.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, are you aware of -- can you give us an example

24     of something which would engage a police commander for 24 hours during

25     the course of your time as a police commander?  Was this a -- what I'm

Page 6196

 1     asking, really, was this an unusual occurrence or was this standard

 2     policing?

 3        A.   Well, while I was employed only in cases where there was an

 4     exercise held somewhere out in the field outside of Kljuc municipality or

 5     we were providing security somewhere, then 24 hours would be counted as

 6     working hours and recorded as such, but there were very few such cases.

 7     I barely remember any.

 8        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  I wonder if I can admit this document at this

10     stage.

11             JUDGE HALL:  When you say "this document," what do you mean?  46,

12     or everything in the binder?

13             MS. PIDWELL:  No, just this log-book, sir, the Kljuc SJB roster

14     log-book, the particular pages that we have selected between those dates.

15             JUDGE HALL:  There doesn't seem to be any objection.  Yes,

16     admitted and marked.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's not an objection.  Just for the clarity of the

18     transcript, I would like Ms. Pidwell to name the 65 ter number of the

19     document which we are admitting.  Thank you very much.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  2890.1.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be admitted as

22     Exhibit P966.

23             MS. PIDWELL:

24        Q.   Sir, there's another document I would like you to look at which

25     is similar.  It's behind tab 43 in your binder.  65 ter 2888.1.

Page 6197

 1     Actually, it's in your first binder.

 2             Do you have the first page there, sir?  And if you do, could you

 3     please advise if you're familiar with -- with this log-book.

 4        A.   Yes.  This is the duty roster kept at the branch office in

 5     Gornji Ribnik.  These duty rosters were normally kept by squad

 6     commanders.

 7        Q.   And if you turn to the next page, sir, which is headed "April

 8     1992," and the ERN number is 0629-2975.  We see some names there.  Are

 9     you able to confirm that they're names of police officers who were

10     stationed at the Ribnik substation at that time?

11        A.   From number 1 through 4 are active police officers whom I knew

12     personally.  They were my subordinates.  As for the rest, from 5 onwards

13     were members of the reserve police strength.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now could I ask you to turn to the July page.  It's

15     head "July 1992," and at the top is 0629-2985.

16             Do you have that, sir?

17        A.   Yes, I have that.  The squad commander is under 1.  From the 1st

18     to the 20th, he was at Manjaca.  I was an eyewitness to that, because he

19     was one of the guards at Manjaca while I was incarcerated there.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd seek to admit and mark that document at this

22     stage.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P967.

25             MS. PIDWELL:

Page 6198

 1        Q.   Now can I ask you to turn to the document behind tab 44, which is

 2     65 ter 2889.1.

 3             Do you recognise this log-book, sir?

 4        A.   This is a roster of the Sanica Reserve Police Station, and I'm

 5     familiar with it.  I know that it was kept in the squad.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And if you can turn to the next page, which is headed

 7     "April 1992," 0629-3106.

 8             Do you -- are you able to comment on the names number 1 to 6

 9     listed there?

10        A.   From 1 to 6 are active police officers who worked in the Sanica

11     police squad.  Their commander was Milan Tomic, under number 1.  Here you

12     have him.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And if you turn to the next page, which is headed

14     also "April 1992," that has the heading 0629-3108.  You'll see the

15     numbering starts again at the top.

16             Are you able to comment on whether the names there are active or

17     reserve police station -- policemen?

18        A.   On this page you can see members of the reserve of police force

19     who performed duties of reserve policemen in Stanica.  They were headed

20     by Ferid Harambasic whom I knew well, and so on and so forth.

21        Q.   Thank you, sir.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd seek to admit and tender that document as well,

23     please.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P968, Your Honours.

Page 6199

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Pidwell, I would like to ask something in

 2     relation to the witness.  If I take the April roster, 3106, the

 3     witness -- the witness said that that was -- 1, 2, 3 to 6 are the police

 4     officers.  Are there any -- any police officers from Muslim ethnicity

 5     between them?  The witness says he knows them all.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:

 7        Q.   Mr. Dzafic, are you able to answer His Honour's question?  In the

 8     April 1992 list from the active police in Sanica that you have before

 9     you, are any of the active police members there of -- what is the

10     ethnicity of them?

11        A.   Under number 3, 5, and 6 are policemen, Suad Medic,

12     Resid Omerovic, and Adnan Temimovic.  They were Muslim Bosniaks, whereas

13     the others are Serb policemen.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know them personally, and to this

16     very day I speak to some of them, and we drink coffee together.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.  Thank you.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry.  If we could have that document back before

19     the witness again, please.

20        Q.   Sir, just following on from Judge Delvoie's question, if I could

21     refer you to June 1992, 0629-3116.

22             Can you comment on the ethnicity of the police officers listed on

23     that page.

24        A.   On this page you can see active and reserve policemen, and they

25     are all Serbs.  They're all Serb ethnicity.  Sometime in mid-May -- or,

Page 6200

 1     rather, on the 7th of May these policemen, the reserve policemen from the

 2     ranks of Bosnian -- Bosnian ethnicity, refused to pledge loyalty to the

 3     Serb authorities, and they left the ranks of the reserve police force.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'm now going to ask you to look at another

 5     document which is behind tab 45 in your binder and is 65 ter 2893.

 6             Do you have that document in front of you, sir, or that ...

 7        A.   This is a roster in which the duty police officer in Kljuc --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  What is the page number, please?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- during --

10             JUDGE HALL:  At divider 45, what's the page number, please?

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry.  This document's -- it's also a log but a

12     different sort, and we won't be as meticulous with this one, so this one

13     hasn't been provided to you in hard copy.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             MS. PIDWELL:

16        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Dzafic.  Please continue.

17        A.   This is a duty log-book.  Every duty police officer who was on

18     duty usually from 8.00 onwards had to record everything that happened

19     during his duty service and what they did.  They recorded events, reports

20     that the duty service reserved, reports by citizens, and so forth.  In

21     any case, this log-book is a record of events, and every duty officer had

22     to enter the data upon the end of their duty service.

23        Q.   Thank you.  During the course of -- of your duties at the SJB

24     Kljuc, did you enter the daily events in this book or a book like this,

25     or was that someone else's role?

Page 6201

 1        A.   Let me tell you this:  On page 1, which is 3601, this report was

 2     subsequently checked by the commander or his deputy.  On the first page I

 3     recognise my initial showing that I inspected this report entered on the

 4     28th of February, 1992.  The duty police officer had recorded what was

 5     happening during the eight hours of his duty.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I want to refer you to a particular page which at the

 7     top has a heading 0629-3754.  If I could draw your attention, sir, to the

 8     second half -- the bottom of the page where there's an entry for the

 9     1st of April, 1992.  You were still working at the SJB Kljuc at this

10     time.  Are you familiar with this entry?

11        A.   Just give me a moment to read, and then I can answer.  I don't

12     remember, but I know that during that period I was informed about that

13     meeting.  I can't remember what the topic of the meeting was.  It was a

14     long time ago, and I have not had the opportunity to inspect the log-book

15     again.

16        Q.   Yes.  Thank you, sir.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  I see, Your Honours, that the English translation

18     hasn't come up on your screen, which may put you at a slight

19     disadvantage.  I'm told it's in e-court.  Page 23.

20        Q.   Sir, we're just having some technical issues here, so if you'd

21     just bear with us.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender this log-book.

23     I'm happy to go through more dates with the witness if that is required.

24     I'm in your hands, really, as to -- he's authenticated the book.  It was

25     in use while he was there.  His name appears in it, and I'm wondering how

Page 6202

 1     much more I need to do in order to convince you that it's appropriate to

 2     tender at this stage.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Pidwell, it's not a problem, except that what

 5     does it intend to show, other than he was there and ...

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  Sir, the log-book has entries for the relevant

 7     dates in the indictment, the takeover of the municipality of Kljuc, the

 8     two dates of massacres that we plead, and it also has numerous entries

 9     about dispatches going to and from CSB Banja Luka to Kljuc and back

10     again.  I can take him through all of that if necessary.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P969, Your Honour.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  As an extension of that, Your Honours, the next --

15     the daily events log-book continues on.  This was a period from the 28th

16     of February, 1992, until the 31st of July, 1992.  The next document

17     starts on the 1st of August, 1992, and carries on until the 7th of

18     October, 1992.  It's the same book, but it just continues on with those

19     dates.  Now, it's accepted that this witness was not present at the

20     SJB Kljuc at this time because he was detained, but it's a continuation

21     of the same book, and the Prosecution would like to tender it in order to

22     prove or to show the consistencies of the communication at that time.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.  That's 65 ter 2891.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P970.

Page 6203

 1             MS. PIDWELL:

 2        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you to look at another document which is

 3     behind tab 31 in your binder.  It's 65 ter 821.  Sir, do you recognise

 4     the signature at the bottom of the page?

 5        A.   No, I don't.  Actually, I'm not sure.  In any case, it was not

 6     signed by the SJB chief.

 7        Q.   Are you aware of any circumstances when the SJB chief would not

 8     sign a document, and if so, who would sign in his place?

 9        A.   In his absence he would choose either the commander of the SJB or

10     the head of the group for crime prevention.

11        Q.   And are you able to advise the Court whether the -- any of the

12     nine men listed there were with you at Manjaca?

13        A.   This is a list of people who were sent to Manjaca.  Under 1, I

14     know this person personally.  I meet him every day.  Irfan Besic.  I know

15     that he was one of those who were brought to Manjaca.  I know the other

16     names as well, but Irfan Besic is my friend and ...

17        Q.   And, sir, are you able to confirm that these people were detained

18     at Manjaca while you were there?

19        A.   I can't confirm the exact date when they arrived.  There were

20     three buildings in Manjaca surrounded by one barbed -- barbed-wire fence.

21     There were between 60 [as interpreted] and 80 [as interpreted] people in

22     each of the buildings, and there were about 1.200 people from the

23     territory of Kljuc.  I know number 9 in this list.  I know him

24     personally.  And I know number 2.  They're still living and working in

25     Kljuc.

Page 6204

 1        Q.   And those persons listed at numbers 2 and 9, are you able to

 2     advise whether they were at Manjaca while you were there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that the number of people

 5     in each building was between 600 and 800.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd ask that document be admitted and marked.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I query it coming in through this witness,

 8     Ms. Pidwell.  He, as I understand it, recognises some of the names of the

 9     persons who were at the Manjaca camp.  He didn't make the document.  Is

10     there -- is there sufficient nexus between him and this document?

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, sir, he knows that the police chief

12     Vinko Kondic was the police chief at Manjaca [sic].  He says he didn't --

13     he was able to say that he -- that wasn't his signature, which seems to

14     go to the fact that he -- he doesn't know the signature of the -- of the

15     police chief.  It goes to -- it's a document that came from his former

16     place of work, and it's fully accepted that he didn't write it himself,

17     but he's able to confirm that at least two of those people were present

18     at Manjaca with him.

19             JUDGE HALL:  I see why you would wish to tender the document.  My

20     only reservation is whether this is the appropriate witness.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, sir --

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked, Ms. Pidwell.

24             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, sir.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P971, Your Honours.

Page 6205

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just one comment, Your Honours.  I'm not sure

 2     the -- the transcript says line [sic] 72, 16, Ms. Pidwell:  "He knows

 3     that the police chief Vinko Kondic was the police chief at Manjaca."

 4             I guess that was a mistake, yes?

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, it should read Kljuc.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is exactly what I -- thank you.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, while we are -- have interrupted you,

 8     we note that the time that you've asked for, you've almost doubled it and

 9     you're not yet completed.  Where --

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, initially the -- both this witness

12     and the previous witness, we'd estimated one hour on our initial list.

13     When they became videolink witnesses -- we weren't aware that they were

14     going to be videolink witnesses initially.  When they became videolink

15     witnesses, we increased the time estimate and advised the Trial Chamber

16     that they would be two hours each.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, my mistake then.

18             JUDGE HALL:  I apologise, Ms. Pidwell.  Please -- so you have 20

19     minutes left.

20             MS. PIDWELL:

21        Q.   Sir, I'd ask you to look at another document, please.  It's

22     behind tab 34 in your binder.  It's 65 ter 831.  I'd ask you to look at

23     that document, sir.  You see it's dated the 29th of August, 1992.  Do

24     you -- do you recognise the signature on that document?

25        A.   This is the signature of Zeljko Dragic who signed for the chief,

Page 6206

 1     and he was head of the crime prevention department within the SJB.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And if we turn to -- we see that it contains a fairly

 3     extensive list of names, up to number 1.163, and is a list of prisoners

 4     from Kljuc who have been sent to Manjaca.

 5             If I can refer you, sir, to the page -- well, it might be easier

 6     to give you the number.  Number 685.  Page 0059-5016.

 7             Do you see your name there, sir?

 8        A.   685 is where my first and last names are, my father's name, date

 9     of birth, and "Kljuc municipality."

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd ask that this document be admitted and marked.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P972, Your Honours.

14             MS. PIDWELL:

15        Q.   Sir, do you recall when you were -- when you returned to the

16     position of commander of the SJB Kljuc after the war?

17        A.   Yes, certainly.  On the 1st of February, 1996.  I was appointed

18     chief of the public security station in Kljuc.

19        Q.   And during the course of your work in that role, were you

20     involved in a number of investigations into exhumations that took place

21     in the municipality of Kljuc?

22        A.   As chief of the public security station in Kljuc, I was naturally

23     aware and involved, first of all, in discovering the locations of mass

24     graves.  Twelve mass graves were discovered in the territory of Kljuc

25     municipality, out of which over 410 persons were exhumed and over

Page 6207

 1     90 per cent of them were identified.  Plus there were additionally some

 2     120 individual graves.  The locations of these mass graves were at

 3     Laniste Jedan, Laniste 2, Crvena Zemlja 1, Crvena Zemlja 2, Vrhovo 1,

 4     Vrhovo 2, Potocani, Biljani, Bunarevo, all of these locations are in the

 5     territory of Kljuc municipality.  In addition to that, we participated in

 6     exhumations of two mass graves which are not located in Kljuc

 7     municipality.  Those are the mass graves in Golubnjaca, Grbija [phoen]

 8     municipality and Tihotina, Bihac municipality.  I'm mentioning these two

 9     mass graves because among the exhumed bodies they also found citizens

10     from the territory of Kljuc municipality.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'd first like to ask you just a couple of questions

12     about the exhumations that took place at Laniste 2.  Firstly, can you

13     tell the Tribunal where the exhumations took place in relation to the

14     town of Kljuc.

15        A.   Your Honours, the location of the Laniste 2 mass grave is near

16     the main road between Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac, from the intersection

17     and check-point at Velagici some 3 to 4 kilometres onwards, and then to

18     the right, turning to the right on the macadam road, in the forest at the

19     foothills of Grmec Mountain, some 2 to 3 kilometres from the main road

20     called Avnoj road.

21             I was the first one to receive information from a neighbour who

22     is a great friend of mine to this day, and he's a Serb.  He gave me

23     information on the location of this mass grave.  We immediately proceeded

24     to exhume it.  We were among the first ones to do that in early 1996.

25        Q.   Thank you, sir.

Page 6208

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, I have the court record of that

 2     exhumation, which in the witness's binder, number 39.  It's 65 ter 2518,

 3     and I'd seek to tender that now.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P973, Your Honours.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:

 7        Q.   I'd now like to ask you about the location of the -- the mass

 8     grave at Laniste 1.  Could you please describe for the Tribunal where

 9     that is in relation to the town of Kljuc.

10        A.   The location of Laniste 1 mass grave is also near the main road

11     between Kljuc and Bosanski Petrovac, from the Velagici intersection some

12     3 to 4 kilometres but in the opposite direction, turning to the left,

13     opposite from Laniste 2.  There was a worksite there in the forest.  They

14     started building the barracks, and some 1 to 2 kilometres on the macadam

15     road from that worksite there was a natural cave which I'd known from

16     before the war, and it was used as a dump for the worksite.  They would

17     throw their debris into the cave.  However, after the war ended, the

18     first information we received was that that cave or pit was the execution

19     site.  It was flattened to the ground and levelled, even though it is

20     some 25 metres deep and the diameter is 2 and a half metres or more.

21             After very hard work, after taking the soil out by hand, they

22     found about 80 bodies of Kljuc municipality citizens who were killed or,

23     rather, residents of Sanica local commune, Biljani settlement.  The

24     exhumation was conduct by the expert team headed by Mr. Masovic and other

25     members.  I don't want to go into further details.

Page 6209

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, the 65 ter numbers 2440 and 2443 are

 2     court records and reports on the mass grave at Laniste which I'd seek to

 3     tender at this juncture.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, our recollection was that understanding

 5     was that they would be marked for identification, because you sought to

 6     tender as an exhibit the previous exhumation report, and now you're

 7     making the like application with respect to the present one, but isn't

 8     that the -- isn't that premature?

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  I'm sorry.  It is, Your Honour.  That was -- that

10     was the understanding.  I wonder, given the lateness of the hour, whether

11     the documents that we discussed previously which relate to the

12     exhumations can all be MFI'd at this time, and we can leave them at a --

13     at -- there.

14             JUDGE HALL:  That would seem to me the most efficient way of

15     dealing with it.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.  Perhaps if I just read the 65 ter

17     numbers out to be MFI'd.  65 ter numbers 2440, 2443, 2518, 2445, 2446,

18     and 2452.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But 2518 you just actually had admitted as P973,

20     didn't you?  So that is now MFI'd.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  I think -- that was my mistake, Your Honours.  I

22     was a little bit overanxious, and I think the agreement was at the

23     beginning that we would MFI these documents.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yeah, go ahead.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 2440 will be P974

Page 6210

 1     marked for identification; 65 ter number 2443 will be P975 marked for

 2     identification; 65 ter number 2445 will be Exhibit P976 marked for

 3     identification; 65 ter number 2446 will be P977 marked for

 4     identification; and 65 ter number 2452 will be P978 marked for

 5     identification.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, that concludes the -- the evidence in

 7     chief for the Prosecution.

 8             Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.  The Judges will now address you with the

 9     requirements for you to come back tomorrow and answer any questions from

10     the Defence counsel.

11             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Thank you, Ms. Pidwell.

12             Your testimony, sir, is not yet completed.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

14             JUDGE HALL:  There's still -- your testimony is not at an end,

15     and we are about to take the adjournment for the day.  We will resume at

16     9.00 tomorrow morning, that is the time in The Hague, whatever the time

17     is in Sarajevo where -- from where you're testifying.  And at which time

18     the Defence, if they wish, would have the right to cross-examine you.

19     Having been sworn as a witness, I am to caution you that you cannot

20     discuss your testimony with anyone.  So you are -- the matter is --  the

21     court would now adjourn until tomorrow morning.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of

24                           February, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.