Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6579

 1                           Friday, 19 February 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 10.17 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.  Thank you,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May I, first of all, begin by taking

11     the appearances.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution, I'm

13     Tom Hannis, assisted today by Jasmina Bosnjakovic.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

16     this morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. PANTELIC:  For Zupljanin Defence -- good morning, Your

18     Honours.  For Zupljanin Defence this morning, appearing Igor Pantelic and

19     Dragan Krgovic.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             I -- I assume the persons who are even from other than an English

22     speaking background are familiar with the concept of Murphy's law that

23     anything that can go wrong will.  In my office at home, I actually have a

24     sign that Murphy was an optimist.  And in that vain, Mr. Zecevic, despite

25     the efforts that we thought we took yesterday to ensure that the

Page 6580

 1     procedural arrangements would be made to facilitate your communication

 2     with your client this morning, I understand there was a glitch.  So the

 3     question is whether - notwithstanding what unfortunately went wrong - you

 4     are in a position to -- to -- you were in a position to take instructions

 5     on -- on the relevant issue.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             As a matter of fact, well, the glitches are happening as -- as we

 8     know, and you're correct, this is a Murphy's law.  But, however, last

 9     night due to the transport which was due to start after -- at 7.00 or

10     some minutes after, I had the opportunity to -- to talk to my client for

11     half an hour, and this 15 minutes this morning, it was more than enough.

12     So I'm ready and prepared to -- thank you very much.

13             JUDGE HALL:  So the usher will escort the witness back to the

14     stand.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something is buzzing in my ears.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  We hear some buzzing sound or ...

19     [Microphone not activated].

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we've called for a technician to

21     look into the issue, and someone will be here in a moment.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour, your sign in the office is -- is

23     definitely true.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I remind you, sir, that you're still on your oath.

25                           WITNESS:  MILAN SCEKIC [Resumed]

Page 6581

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic: [Continued]

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Scekic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Yesterday in the course of examination-in-chief, you confirmed to

 7     my learned friend, Mr. Hannis, that the work on providing security for

 8     persons and facilities engaged one company in Pale, from a public

 9     security company, whose commander, I believe, came from Zvornik, Vukovic.

10             I have to ask to you make a break for the -- between -- to make a

11     pause between question and answer for the record.

12             Let me summarise.  You confirm there was a public security

13     company in Pale, and their job was to provide security to physical

14     persons and facilities, and Vukovic was their commander.

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.  They secured VIP apartments and buildings.

16        Q.   The name of that person is Vojo Vukovic.  Does that jog your

17     memory?

18        A.   Yes, Vojo Vukovic.

19        Q.   Yesterday you talked about personal security to

20     Minister Stanisic, and you mentioned in that respect Zoran Jasarevic as

21     his driver?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Isn't it a fact that normally people who enjoy security details

24     have drivers who are -- who double as body-guards?

25        A.   Well, if he didn't have a separate personal driver, then his

Page 6582

 1     driver would be his body-guard, and that job would be regulated and

 2     linked to the MUP.

 3        Q.   Do you know that the personal body-guard, in addition to this

 4     Zoran Jasarevic who was a driver, the personal guard to Mr. Stanisic was

 5     actually Goran Abazovic?

 6        A.   No, I don't know that, because it was the public security sector

 7     who provided body-guards.

 8        Q.   All right.  Yesterday, when you were talking about Dusko Malovic,

 9     on page 50 of the transcript, you said that you noted him as a striking,

10     handsome man, whose father you knew, and then you were unable to recall

11     his last name.  And you said:

12             "I know that shortly afterwards he was killed, but I can't

13     remember the year.  I think his last name was Malovic."

14             And then you explained that you had been told he had been in the

15     army, then he was demobilised, and he then worked as a body-guard to

16     Minister Stanisic.

17             You remember saying that?

18        A.   Yes, and I accept all that, apart from one fact which may have

19     been misinterpreted.  I didn't know his father.  But the colleagues who

20     were in the VIP security section told me that he had been in the JNA,

21     that he was demobilised, and he was now body-guard to Minister Stanisic.

22     But I didn't know either the man or his father.

23             Could have been misinterpreted.

24        Q.   Probably.  But I'm interested in this other thing.  If I

25     understood correctly what you said yesterday, that means that shortly

Page 6583

 1     after you noticed him and made inquiries about him, he was killed?

 2        A.   Yes, he was killed in Belgrade, and rumour had it later that he

 3     was killed by mistake.  It was a case of mistaken identity.  The real

 4     target was a man called Vukovic; not from Serbia, from Montenegro, I

 5     believe.

 6        Q.   I'll try to refresh your memory.

 7             Do you remember that Mr. Malovic was killed while riding in a

 8     war, together with Goran Vukovic, whose nickname was Majmun, Monkey, and

 9     was known in the criminal circles as the killer of another well-known

10     criminal, Ljubo Zemunac.  Do you remember that?

11        A.   Yes, but I know that the target was Vukovic, somewhere from

12     Belgrade.

13        Q.   Mr. Scekic, this assassination of Vukovic in which Dusko Malovic

14     was killed as well, happened on the 12th of December, 1994, in Belgrade,

15     outside the Yugoslav drama theatre.  Does that refresh your memory?

16        A.   Yes, I know about the assassination, but I don't know the year.

17        Q.   Tell me, sir, from the time when, on the 15th of May, 1992, you

18     took up your job in Pale, you stayed in Pale all the way until 1995,

19     1996?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I suppose then that you know that Mr. Stanisic was minister in

22     two terms: First, in April until November 1992, when Djeric's government

23     fell; and then for several months in the beginning of 1994.  You know

24     that?

25        A.   Yes, I know that.  I know that Mr. Stanisic occupied that post

Page 6584

 1     twice and that there was a total of five ministers of internal affairs

 2     until the Dayton Accords.  Some of them had a very shorter tenure, just a

 3     few months, and there were others who had absolutely nothing to do with

 4     the Ministry of Interior or the trade.

 5        Q.   Mr. Scekic, I put it to you that Dusko Malovic was on the

 6     security detail of Mr. Stanisic in Mr. Stanisic's second tenure as

 7     minister.  That means in 1994, not in 1992.

 8        A.   I saw him two or three times, together with the minister of the

 9     interior.  Now in which period that was, I really don't know.  I saw him

10     a couple of times.  I know he was a striking, handsome young man, and

11     later we read in the newspaper there was this assassination in Belgrade

12     and he was killed by mistake.  Another man was supposed to be killed.

13     And now I hear from you who that was.

14        Q.   Thank you very much.  I have no further questions for you.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

16     witness, thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, your position remains as it was

18     yesterday.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Mr. Hannis.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

23        Q.   Mr. Scekic, I'd like to start with the last question today.

24             You told us that in 1992 where you were housed in doing your

25     work.  Did you remain in that location throughout the time until you

Page 6585

 1     retired, or did you move somewhere else?

 2        A.   Right at the beginning of 1992, I spent a while in hotel Bistrica

 3     which was the seat of the government, and then later, when Mr. Karadzic

 4     moved to the Famos building I made myself an office there, to be close to

 5     him, and it was also closer to all the VIPs who had security.  There was

 6     the President there, the prime minister, and the government.

 7             The leadership of the State Security Service had moved to

 8     Bijeljina for a short while, because of a shortage of offices, and I

 9     stayed with a couple of other employees in the State Security Service in

10     Kikinda; whereas, I had my office there Famos, in the building which

11     housed the office of the President of Republika Srpska.

12        Q.   And when did Mr. Karadzic move to Famos?

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Did you understand the question, sir?

14             MR. HANNIS:

15        Q.   Did you hear my question?

16        A.   Well, I answered.

17        Q.   I'm sorry, let me ask again because your answer is not recorded.

18             Do you know -- do you recall when Mr. Karadzic moved to Famos,

19     approximately?

20        A.   I think it was sometime in early 1993.

21        Q.   Yesterday, when you were talking about having seen Mr. Malovic in

22     the company of Mr. Stanisic, I believe you told us you saw that when

23     Mr. Stanisic appeared to be going to visit Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik,

24     where they were located at that time, and I believe you had said that

25     that location was at Panorama; is that correct?

Page 6586

 1        A.   Yes, correct, that's what I said.  But it was 18 years ago.  I

 2     allow the possibility that I also saw them outside Panorama.  Now,

 3     whether only the Speaker of the Assembly remained there, or maybe he was

 4     visiting -- or maybe Karadzic was visiting Krajisnik, or they were in

 5     Famos, I don't know that anymore.  But it's true that I saw Dusko Malovic

 6     two or three times with the minister.  Now, whether Krajisnik was the one

 7     who was being visited or they were visiting Koljevic or Biljana Plavsic,

 8     because they were all -- they had their offices close by ...

 9        Q.   Wasn't part of the reason you recalled seeing Mr. Malovic with

10     Mr. Stanisic at Panorama was because you were located just across the

11     street at that time, in 1992?

12        A.   At the outset, for a short while, I was based in Hotel panorama,

13     but later when the government moved to Bistrica hotel, I moved there with

14     them.

15        Q.   In 1994, do you know where Mico Stanisic was when he was minister

16     for the second time?  Was he in Pale, was he Bijeljina, where was he

17     primarily located?

18        A.   Well, Mico Stanisic, in 1994, spent most of the time in Tron.

19     It's a building -- I don't know how to explain.  Some sort of catering

20     establishment.  It was called Tron.  He may have spent a few nights on

21     Jahorina as well, where the special unit was housed but most of the time

22     he spent nights in Tron.  That's where public security was based.

23        Q.   And can you tell the Judges where Tron was located?  In what town

24     or near what town?

25        A.   In Pale.  I don't know how to explain more precisely.  He was the

Page 6587

 1     closest -- the next close location was the government seat.  Halfway

 2     between the government seat and the Assembly, let's say.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, at page 69 -- oh.

 4        A.   I apologise.  And that's where the office of the minister of the

 5     interior was, in this Tron building.

 6        Q.   And how far was the Tron building located from Panorama?

 7        A.   Maybe a kilometre, kilometre and a half.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, at page 69, line 14, Mr. Zecevic was

 9     discussing with you about the meeting in Pale that you went to, where

10     Mr. Kijac and Mr. Stanisic were present and where it was discussed that

11     there was going to be a new Serbian MUP created, and you were to return

12     to your post and not follow directions of Muslim superiors, if those

13     directions were contrary to the interest of Serbs.

14             Do you recall that?

15        A.   Yes, I said -- it was a short meeting.  I said yesterday I allow

16     the possibility that he may have been introduced as the future minister

17     or already a minister.  But the point of the entire meeting was that we

18     were staying in our jobs, that a Muslim may be our chief but may not give

19     us assignments that would be contrary to the interests of the Serb

20     people.

21        Q.   In trying to narrow down the date of that meeting, I'd like to

22     ask you if you were aware of the issuance of a dispatch by Momo Mandic on

23     the 31st of March where he invited all police officers of Serb

24     nationality to put themselves at the disposition of the newly created

25     Serbian MUP.

Page 6588

 1             Did you know about that?

 2        A.   I don't remember.  The dispatch could not have reached me

 3     directly.  It could have reached the chief of the State Security Centre

 4     who would in turn forward it to the chiefs of departments.  We were

 5     duty-bound, in respect of every dispatch that we may have received or any

 6     letter of appointment or any order, to place our initials on each and

 7     every dispatch to indicate that we were apprised of it.  Since a Muslim,

 8     Munir Alibabic, was at the head of our service, I don't think that it

 9     ever crossed his mind to forward the dispatch for information to those of

10     us who remained in the service and were of Serb ethnicity.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Can we show the witness Exhibit P29.

13        Q.   Mr. Scekic, this is something you looked at yesterday.  We looked

14     at the photograph, but now I want to look at the news article that you

15     started to read from yesterday.

16             And my English translation of that caption is: April Fool

17     Reality.

18             I see we're still waiting for your B/C/S.  If we could go to the

19     bottom of the page in B/C/S.

20             I don't know if you can read that hard copy underneath.  The bold

21     part is translated as:  "Serbian members of the service already invited

22     to join Serbian MUP."

23             And then in the smaller print in the second line it says:

24             "Momcilo Mandic, deputy minister, invited 'according to the

25     constitution of the Serbian Republic, of Bosnia-Herzegovina' all police

Page 6589

 1     officers of Serbian nationality to put themselves at the disposition of

 2     'MUP of Serbian Republic,' today on the 1st of April."

 3             You weren't aware of that?  Here it's printed in Oslobodjenje on

 4     the 1st of April.

 5        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.

 6        Q.   Not from any of your colleagues, not from radio, not from TV?

 7        A.   I may have heard it.  But then I heard many unpleasant things too

 8     about me as well.  And to tell you the truth, I didn't really read the

 9     Oslobodjenje.  I would read other Sarajevo papers.  I would read

10     Oslobodjenje only occasionally.  There are certain illogical matters

11     here.  How can Delimustafic issue an appeal for unity --

12        Q.   Let me stop you there.  This wasn't a matter that was published

13     in any of the other newspapers on or about the 1st of April, 1992, in

14     Sarajevo?  Is that what you're telling me?

15        A.   The fact that this was published in newspapers is not in dispute.

16     I don't want it deny it.  I may not have read it or I may have read it

17     but since it was 18 years ago I forgot.  I may well have read it and not

18     remember it now.

19        Q.   The reason I'm asking is, if the Serbian MUP had been publically

20     announced and all MUP employees of Serbian nationality invited to put

21     themselves at the disposition of that newly created Serbian MUP on the

22     1st of April, would you not agree with me that the meeting you attended

23     where you were told that a new Serbian MUP was going to be formed would

24     have been -- that meeting would have been before the 1st of April?

25        A.   I said as much.  It was held at the end of March or in early

Page 6590

 1     April.  This is what I stated yesterday.

 2             I think it is more likely that it was held in the early days of

 3     April.  I'm saying this because of the newspaper article published in

 4     Vecernje Novine which concerned me.  At that point in time, I was already

 5     unable to go to work.

 6             MR. PANTELIC:  I do apologise to my friend.

 7             Your Honours, we are very tolerant this morning, it's Friday,

 8     maybe that's the reason.  We are not objecting to the whole line of

 9     leading questions of my learned friend.  So, please, Mr. Hannis, take

10     care a little bit of the Rules.  Thank you.

11             MR. HANNIS:

12        Q.   At the meeting that you went to you told us that you were

13     informed to return to your work and not follow directions of your Muslim

14     supervisors.

15             Let me ask you, if there was already a Serbian MUP in existence,

16     why would you be told to go back to work for your Muslim supervisors?  Do

17     you know?

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic is on his feet.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm just -- just for the clarity, Mr. Hannis, it is

20     not -- it is not the -- that they were -- they were not to follow the

21     directions of their Muslim superiors.  It is -- it is much more

22     specified.  You're misinterpreting the evidence of the witness, I'm

23     sorry.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Do you want to give me a page reference?

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I couldn't find it but I believe everybody

Page 6591

 1     will remember that the witness said not to follow the directions of -- of

 2     Muslim superiors if they are not in interest of Serbia or contrary to the

 3     interests of Serbian people.  That is the only reference I wanted to

 4     make.  Thank you.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Right.  But my question is why would you go back to

 6     work with Muslim superiors when you're invited to join the Serbian MUP

 7     which did not have any Muslim superiors.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I didn't -- I didn't -- I wasn't

 9     objecting to your question.  I was just objecting to the -- to the

10     previous line where -- where you -- where you didn't state fully the --

11     the evidence of this witness.  That -- that was my objection, nothing

12     else.  Thank you.

13             MR. HANNIS:

14        Q.   Witness, let me ask the question again.

15             If there was already a Serbian MUP formed at the time of your

16     meeting, can you explain why you would have been directed to go back to

17     work where there were Muslim superiors, instead of just going to work at

18     the newly formed Serbian MUP?

19        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I don't know that the Serbian MUP had been formed

20     at the time.  I suppose they would have informed us about it, and --

21     about the appointments.  I suppose they would have informed us about the

22     location of our offices in Pale, about the equipment we had at our

23     disposal, and about the staff who were supposed to join us.  This was a

24     very brief meeting at which we were told that the Serbian MUP was being

25     formed but that we would stay at our work because the secretary of the

Page 6592

 1     Sarajevo MUP remained the same, the same individual, even after that

 2     meeting.

 3        Q.   I think we're not in disagreement.  You've told us that

 4     conditions that you were working under in late 1991 and 1992 were not

 5     very good, and why, if there were already a Serbian MUP in existence,

 6     would Serbian MUP employees, like yourself, be told to go back to that?

 7     That's why I think the meeting you attended must have been before

 8     April 1st.

 9             Do you understand?

10        A.   I do understand.  But then I did say that it was in late March or

11     early April.  When I cast my mind back to that period, I do believe it's

12     more likely that it was in early April, because the lies were published

13     about me in Vecernje Novine on the 7th and by that time, I was already

14     unable to go to work.

15        Q.   I -- I understand.  And I understand that that was probably more

16     on your mind than anything else, the newspaper article that was being

17     published about you personally.  Is that fair to say?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   The last thing I want to ask you about.  Yesterday, at page 76,

20     line 10 --

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Hannis, forgive me for not being fully aware

22     of the status of this article, is that in evidence or do you wish to

23     tender it?

24             MR. HANNIS:  It is in evidence, Your Honours, as P29.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

Page 6593

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Not at all.

 2        Q.   Yesterday, at page 76 line 2, Mr. Zecevic was talking to you

 3     about how it was in the former Socialist Republic of Bosnia, where the

 4     under-secretary for state security actually was paid more than the

 5     minister, or the secretary.

 6             Do you recall that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you know whether or not that pay discrepancy continued to

 9     exist in the Republika Srpska?  Did Mr. Skipina or Mr. Kijac get paid

10     more than Minister Stanisic.  Do you know?

11        A.   I don't know about that.  Pay was not something that was

12     discussed.  I had my pay as a chief of administration and that was ranked

13     third, I think, in the hierarchy, because then you had the state

14     Presidency, they were the top echelon, then the ministers, and then us as

15     chiefs of departments.  We always had a 10 percent higher wage than those

16     who were in the rest of the ministry.  And I could buy ten cartons of

17     cigarettes with my pay at the time.

18        Q.   Related to that, you were then asked whether or not you agreed

19     that in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, before the war in 1992, whether

20     the position of the under-secretary for state security was actually a bit

21     stronger, even than the position of secretary, or minister for internal

22     affairs, and I think you -- you agreed with that; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  For us in the State Security Service, the under-secretary

24     was to us what a general is to a soldier.

25        Q.   I understand.  And I think part of the -- part of your reasoning

Page 6594

 1     based on your answer was you said sometimes before the war he, meaning

 2     the under-secretary, had to keep informed the President of the

 3     Central Committee or the President of the Presidency and possibly the

 4     prime minister.

 5             My question is:  In the Republika Srpska, do you know what the

 6     situation was?  Would you say Mr. Skipina or Mr. Kijac were stronger as

 7     under-secretaries for state security than the minister himself?

 8        A.   Mr. Skipina's tenure was very short before the war.  Mr. Kijac

 9     was only an operative, and I think that he deserved to become the

10     under-secretary of the State Security Service.  The under-secretary

11     informed the -- and briefed the minister of the interior; that was his

12     duty.  Equally so, he could turn to the President of the Republic, or the

13     prime minister, wherever he felt that there was urgent information to be

14     conveyed.

15        Q.   In your answer yesterday at page 77, you said -- it depended on

16     who the minister was.  You said:  "Sometimes the under-secretary would go

17     through the minister to inform the president or the prime minister, et

18     cetera.

19             Do you know what the relationship was in the RS MUP between

20     Skipina and later Kijac in terms of whether or not they directly informed

21     Karadzic and Djeric, those others, directly or through Minister Stanisic.

22     Do you know?

23        A.   I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about it.  I know that

24     Skipina was there only for a short time and that Kijac subsequently

25     become the under-secretary.  The minister's seat was not in Pale either,

Page 6595

 1     so he could not be reached directly.  It depended on the ministry.  Some

 2     of the ministers were seated in Banja Luka; others in Bijeljina.  When

 3     the State Security Service moved to Bijeljina, most likely the minister's

 4     seat was in Bijeljina.  The minister was Zivko Rakic from the Bosnian

 5     Krajina and he was there rarely.  He was a minister who hailed from

 6     Ilijas.  He was a physics teacher.

 7             His tenure was also very short.  No sooner did he assume his

 8     position than he was replaced.  I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And I apologies.  There was one last topic I needed to go

10     back to.  Yesterday at page 65, beginning at line 18, you and Mr. Zecevic

11     were talking about Munir Alibabic, who you described as a great

12     professional, and you both mentioned the fact that Mr. Alibabic had, back

13     in the early 1980s, investigated Mr. Izetbegovic, and as a result of that

14     investigation Mr. Izetbegovic was tried and sent to prison for a while.

15             Isn't it a fact that within your service, the State Security

16     Service, which later became the National Security Service, state security

17     people were investigating the leaders of the nationalist parties in 1990

18     and 1991, Karadzic, Krajisnik, Izetbegovic, whoever the Croatians were.

19     All of those leaders were being investigated by state security; isn't

20     that correct?

21        A.   Munir Alibabic was leading the investigation into

22     Alija Izetbegovic.  Not only was he a member of the team, he was at the

23     head of it.

24             As for Karadzic and Krajisnik, I don't know about that.  It was

25     not in my line of duty.  I do know that they had been convicted by the

Page 6596

 1     public security branch for white-collar crime.  It involved the

 2     construction of weekend cottages in Pale or somewhere.  I know that they

 3     were the subject of examination of the Public Security Service, and that

 4     was not part of my work.

 5        Q.   And what would you say about when in 1991 these nationalist

 6     politicians came into power and were making appointments into the MUP,

 7     how would you describe their attitude toward the State Security Service?

 8        A.   Nobody would give up on the MUP, because that gave you the

 9     leverage and power.  Every country's strength is measured by the strength

10     of their police force.  Unfortunately, the Serbian Democratic Party did

11     not have either the power or will to get any vital positions.  It got

12     peripheral positions.  It should have at least tried to get the security

13     services centre, but they didn't even get that.  They only got the city

14     of Sarajevo structure which meant little.  As for the sporadic positions

15     that they got in the Ministry of the Interior, they were insignificant,

16     compared to 120 posts that were envisaged only for the security services

17     centre in Sarajevo.  The problem is that the --

18        Q.   Let me stop you there.  I'm asking about the attitude of all

19     nationalist politicians --

20        A.   -- security services did not resolve its systematic problems.

21        Q.   -- toward the State Security Service in general.  They didn't

22     trust the state security, did they?

23        A.   I wouldn't put it that way.  Alija Izetbegovic nominated

24     Munir Alibabic.  He had always -- he had even wanted him to become the

25     minister of the interior; whereas, it was precisely Munir Alibabic who

Page 6597

 1     had sent him to prison.

 2        Q.   Didn't the public security side have some reserve or distrust for

 3     the state security side?  Just because of the nature of the work you did

 4     on your side.

 5        A.   Well, yes, there was a degree of that.  Because they wore

 6     uniforms, we -- we called them dust biters, just as would you -- as the

 7     airmen would call the infantrymen.

 8        Q.   And do you know what they called you guys on the state security

 9     side?

10        A.   I don't know that, and I would dearly like to know.

11        Q.   Okay.  I -- I don't know.  I know in other jurisdictions

12     sometimes the state police, security police, CIA, are referred to as

13     spooks.  Because no one knows what they're doing or where they're going.

14        A.   Well, it is possible.  In Montenegro, they referred to them as

15     spies.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir, for attending and assisting the

19     Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe

20     journey back to your home.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So the usher will now escort you from the

23     courtroom.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 6598

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, that is it until Monday afternoon, I

 2     take it.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  That is, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 5             So we take the adjournment to Monday, at 2.15, and I wish

 6     everyone a safe weekend.  Thank you.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.08 a.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

 9                           February, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.