100309ED

Page 7348

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

4 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.

6 Q. Okay. Your village, is it surrounded by a number of villages

7 where the population is predominantly Serbian? I'm referring to the

8 villages of Donje Zalukovik, Sadici, Rasica, Rasica Gaj, and a place

9 called Cikote?

10 A. I don't know anything about those there near the entrance of

11 Vlasenica. The inhabited settlement is Drum. As for Rasica Gaj, that is

12 some 7 kilometres from where I live. And then as for Durici and

13 Sarici [as interpreted] and I don't know about those.

14 Q. There's a village near the village of Drum called Piskavice. Do

15 you know the ethnicity of the people who live there?

16 A. Predominantly they were Bosniaks there, but there were also five

17 or six households where Serbs lived.

18 Q. And doing your best, how far would be estimate Piskavice to be

19 from the village of Drum?

20 A. 500 to 600 metres.

21 Q. Turn your mind now to events in 1992, and I'm talking about the

22 first months of 1992, the period of time around April, May, and June of

23 1992. In that time, at any point in that period of time, did you see any

24 soldiers being stationed in or near the village of Drum or on the way to

25 Vlasenica?

Page 7349

1 A. I can only say when the troops came some corps from Novi Sad,

2 that is what I saw. I saw them on the road on the morning of the day the

3 entire -- my entire village was cleansed.

4 Q. Just settle down and think about the questions that I'm asking

5 you. I'm not talking about the day that your village was cleansed.

6 We'll get back to that later.

7 Just go back now and think about these soldiers that you'd

8 mentioned being the Novi Sad Corps.

9 Can you remember when they were stationed near your village?

10 Approximately, it doesn't have to be exact, but approximately.

11 A. Approximately 300 to 400 metres.

12 Q. Yes, I'm asking you about the period of time now. Can you

13 remember when that was? If you can't remember, that's fine. But if can

14 you remember tell the Judges, when did the Novi Sad Corps station itself

15 close to your village?

16 A. I do not recall the date. I woke up in the morning. I saw the

17 troops, I saw the APC, I went to the Vlasenica municipality that is not

18 far from where I live. I passed by them. Nobody asked me anything. I

19 didn't ask them anything.

20 When I came to Vlasenica, people said that the Novi Sad Corps was

21 there. I passed by them. I didn't see them do anything against anybody

22 or against any of my folk.

23 Q. That's okay. That's okay. I'm not asking you to say anything --

24 provide any details beyond what you know.

25 But can you tell us if there were any troops stationed along the

Page 7350

1 road that led from Drum to Vlasenica?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Where was the APC that you talk about?

4 A. Near the football pitch.

5 Q. And --

6 A. That was about 100 metres away from the SUP.

7 Q. Okay. And is the football pitch alongside the road that leads

8 from Drum to the -- the town of Vlasenica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You said you didn't speak to any of the soldiers on the day that

11 you went into Vlasenica. Did you ever have occasion to speak to any of

12 those soldiers stationed there?

13 A. No.

14 Q. All right. And did you see the soldiers -- let me withdraw that.

15 There is no dispute in this case that on the 2nd of June you

16 witnessed events in the village of Drum that you're going speak about

17 later, on the 2nd of June, 1992. Can you tell us if the -- at least if

18 the stationing of the troops occurred before that?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You don't know or it didn't happen before that?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. All right. Now, again, I'm talking about the period of time

23 before the 2nd of June, 1992, when those bad things happened in the

24 village of Drum. I'm talking about the period of time before that.

25 At any point of time before the 2nd of June, did the police come

Page 7351

1 to your village looking for weapons?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now I want you to tell the trial Judges all about

4 that particular episode. Firstly, how many police came to your village?

5 A. I saw a car. There was a public address system mounted on it,

6 and they were telling people that whoever had arms were to turn them in.

7 That nothing -- they would come to no harm. They were going in the

8 direction of Piskavice. Of course, people had hunting rifles that they

9 had licenses for, so they went to Piskavice and then returned.

10 The next day, I saw two men taking their rifles to the SUP and

11 later, two hours later I saw them also pass towards their houses, I

12 think. And they went home safe. I suppose they had to surrender their

13 weapons. I don't know anything about that. I never had any myself. And

14 nobody asked me any questions to that effect.

15 Q. It's all right. We'll -- I'm only asking you to tell the trial

16 judges what you know. You're not being asked to speak about things that

17 you don't know. So don't worry about that, okay. Just tell them what

18 you saw and heard with your own eyes and with your own ears. Nothing

19 beyond that, all right.

20 Other than these two men taking weapons into town, did the police

21 collect any other weapons that you are aware of? If you don't know, say

22 so. But did you see them collect any other weapons?

23 A. No, no, I saw that they took weapons there and the police, those

24 two men who were making the announcement, only made the announcement. I

25 did not see anyone going into a house or asking, making inquiries. That

Page 7352

1 I didn't see. I just heard the announcement when it was addressed over

2 the public address system.

3 Q. All right. I'd like to show you a photograph that you are going

4 to be able to see on your screen.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter 3569, please.

6 Q. That's obviously an aerial shot. Do you recognise that

7 landscape?

8 A. This is the stadium, this here. Here the road goes from the

9 stadium Sarajevo. This road goes towards Sokolac.

10 Q. I'll ask you about features in a moment. All I asked you is

11 this: Do you recognise that landscape? Just tell us, what is it?

12 A. This is Vlasenica municipality, this section. And from the

13 stadium further on, that's the road that goes to Piskavice.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we have the image set back a bit so we can see

16 a bit more detail. A bit further back. Thank you. All right.

17 Q. Now, I'd like you to mark the screen, if you could, please,

18 showing your village. Just draw a circle around your village, the

19 village of Drum?

20 A. This is my house.

21 Q. All right. Can you put --

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd ask that that image not be broadcast, please.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 JUDGE HALL: I understand it's already been broadcast, so we're

Page 7357

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

5 MR. DI FAZIO:

6 Q. First of all, tell the Trial Chamber who were -- how were the men

7 who were squatting dressed?

8 A. Most of them had military uniform on, like the reserve uniform

9 before, in peacetime.

10 Q. Were they armed?

11 A. All of them.

12 Q. Okay. So, you saw armed men in uniform around the village. What

13 did they do?

14 A. An APC came with two -- with a two-barrel gun into Drum village,

15 the house of a man called Dromcevic [phoen]. They started firing. And

16 then everybody turned their heads, I saw them going towards the village.

17 They were going in a big column --

18 Q. Just a moment.

19 A. -- headed by this that started firing.

20 Q. Just a moment, Witness. Keep your answers short, if you wouldn't

21 mind. I'll ask the questions and keep your answers shorter. It makes

22 life a lot easier.

23 Who started going towards the village. You said you saw "them"

24 going towards the village. Who started going towards the village?

25 A. Those soldiers that were just below the village.

Page 7358

1 Q. Did they enter the village?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did the soldiers start to do once they had entered the

4 village?

5 A. It was perhaps 8.00 in the morning.

6 Q. Thanks for the time. But what did the soldiers do? What did

7 they do once they entered the village? What did they start to do?

8 A. From my house, I did not see anything. But I could see in front

9 of me, ahead of me. I saw a girl come by wearing a military uniform.

10 She told me to stand up and approach her. Then another man came up to

11 her. I didn't hear what he said to her. She told him to take me to

12 Djogo's house which is perhaps 100 metres away. The man did take me

13 there. And when I got there, there were about 20 women and two men --

14 Q. Thanks.

15 A. -- there already.

16 Q. We've got far, far ahead of ourselves, okay? Let's go back to

17 the point of time where the men who surrounded the village entered the

18 village. I'm only ask you about what you saw, okay, what you saw with

19 your own two eyes. What did you see the soldiers do when they entered

20 the village? Did they go anywhere, did they go to a house, did they

21 speak to anyone? What did they do?

22 A. There was no talk. There was only firing. People were

23 frightened. Some of them wanted to leave their houses and go outside. I

24 didn't see a particular person shoot at anybody, but I could see soldiers

25 firing. Soldiers I didn't know. I saw the people who were shot down in

Page 7359

1 front of my house?

2 Q. Stop there, please.

3 Now, you said that you saw soldiers firing and people who were

4 shot down in front of your house. Can you -- can you tell us who they

5 were, the people who were shot down. Were they men, were they women,

6 were they children?

7 A. There was Fadil, Meho, Ekrem, Hadzo, Omer.

8 Q. Okay. Now they were all villagers?

9 A. Yes, they were. They were my neighbours.

10 Q. All right. thank you. And were they shot and killed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In front of their houses?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. While this was happening, while they were being shot

15 and killed in front of their houses, what did this armoured vehicle that

16 you mentioned earlier, what did it do at the same time? Tell the Judges

17 what it was doing.

18 A. He just went along the road firing. He was going in the

19 direction of Piskavice. I could sort of follow him for about 100 metres,

20 and then he was no longer in my field of vision.

21 Q. How long did you -- would you say you kept -- you could see the

22 APC for? Was it one or two hours, was it five minutes? How long was

23 it -- could you see it for?

24 A. It was all within five minutes.

25 Q. Did you see any of these soldiers that you've described go into

Page 7360

1 the houses?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You've described men who were killed in the front of their

4 houses. How did the men come to be in the front of their house when they

5 were killed by the soldiers? Tell that to the Judges that, please.

6 A. Certainly when the shooting started, everyone came outside, just

7 like I did. But when the shooting started I, could go no further. I'm a

8 disabled man. I couldn't go far. I was just waiting to see what my fate

9 would be. And like me, everyone else went outside of their house. I was

10 lucky, I survived that hell. But another woman named Slavica, who worked

11 in the Alp company, a woman I knew through a friend of mine from

12 Vlasenica. Actually, I don't know much about what happened outside the

13 village. I know only about what I could see with my own eyes.

14 Q. I want to put some names and to you and tell us if you know

15 anything about these people?

16 Do you know a fellow called Hadzo Malesevac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now, just tell the Trial Chamber what happened to him on

19 this morning of the 2nd of June?

20 A. He came out of his house and I saw him fall down at his

21 door-step.

22 Q. What -- did he trip? How did he fall down?

23 A. There was a burst of gun-fire.

24 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Omer? Just answer yes

25 or no. Do you know a gentleman named Omer from your village?

Page 7361

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Answer yes or no. Was Omer married?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was his wife present in the village on the morning of the 2nd of

5 June?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did anything happen to his wife?

8 A. She was alongside me, the same spot where I was.

9 Q. Are you talking about a later period of time when you were

10 gathered with a group of people?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Just answer yes or no. Do you know a fellow

13 named Meho Jahic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does he have a son?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What's the son's name?

18 A. Ekrem.

19 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what happened to them on the 2nd of June,

20 1992?

21 A. When I got up, there was 30 metres between me and that girl. I

22 saw them both fall down at the door-step next to each other, father and

23 son.

24 Q. And by that, you mean the two Jahics, Meho, the father, and the

25 son, Ekrem; correct?

Page 7362

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Did Meho have a wife?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What happened to her that day?

5 A. She was there. She was present together with the other women.

6 Q. Was she in a position to see her husband and son shot?

7 A. She passed by them.

8 Q. I take it that's yes, she could see them? She could see them

9 shot, from her position?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Fadil Salihovic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What happened to him on the morning of the 2nd of June?

14 A. He was also shot down outside his house.

15 Q. Was he married?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he have a daughter?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What happened to the -- to his wife and daughter?

20 A. Following in my footstep, they also passed by and went to Djogo's

21 house or were taken to Djogo's house.

22 Q. Is Djogo's house where a group of people congregated later?

23 A. Djogo's house is just below the road, and we were on the road.

24 Q. We'll talk about that in a minute.

25 Now, let's get back to the armoured vehicle. Did you recognise

Page 7363

1 anyone who was inside, either driving or manning any weapons, in relation

2 to the armoured vehicle?

3 A. I saw two weapons on him.

4 Q. All right. Now go back to the armoured vehicle. Think about the

5 armoured vehicle, all right? The armoured vehicle that came in the

6 village shooting.

7 Did you recognise anyone in that armoured vehicle?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You mentioned someone called Slavica, I think, earlier. Did you

10 see anyone called Slavica on that day?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where was this person, Slavica?

13 A. In my yard.

14 Q. What was the sex of this person? Man or woman.

15 A. A woman.

16 Q. And the ethnicity?

17 A. Serb.

18 Q. Armed or unarmed?

19 A. Armed.

20 Q. In company -- apparently in company with these soldiers who came

21 into the village?

22 A. Just one man followed her through my yard that I could see.

23 Q. Also a soldier, also armed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Now tell the Trial Chamber what happened between you and

Page 7364

1 Slavica. What was discussed, what was said.

2 A. I was sitting down outside my door, and she was about 15 metres

3 away. She said, Get up and approach. I did, and she said to this

4 soldier who was following her to take me to Djogo's house. She said,

5 Don't let him go on his own, you escort him, and when you've taken him

6 there, then -- then go on.

7 Q. All right. Were you taken to Djogo's house?

8 A. No, just up to the road.

9 Q. What did you see when you got up to the road?

10 A. I saw about five or six women, two men, and some children, and I

11 joined them. We were later joined by Fata and her daughter and more

12 women. There were two soldiers there. One was standing ahead of us, and

13 the other behind us. Then came a police car from the direction of

14 Vlasenica with a man in it. Everybody called him Car. That's all I know

15 about him, his nickname.

16 Next to him sat a man dressed in reserve police uniform. A bus

17 followed immediately after them. The driver of the bus was a technician

18 from Vlasenica who worked in the Bireca [phoen] company I knew him from

19 there.

20 There fire or six men on the bus dressed in reserve police

21 uniform and as we were getting on the bus, a jeep appeared from behind

22 the bus, a military jeep. There was an officer and since I didn't serve

23 in army I couldn't see what rank he had. He had a few stars on his

24 shoulder. He went up to the soldier and said, What kind of bullets are

25 coming at Vlasenica from panorama? And the soldier answered, There's a

Page 7365

1 radio station there. You should find out from them.

2 They went ahead towards Piskavice and we got on the bus and

3 headed for Piskavice. When we were close to Nezir's house, there's a

4 cafe there.

5 Q. I'm going to ask you about the trip on the bus in just a minute.

6 How many villagers -- approximately, how many villagers were loaded onto

7 that bus?

8 A. 28 of us were loaded onto the bus.

9 Q. Mainly women and children?

10 A. Yes, women and children, and there were three or four men.

11 Q. And approximately what was the ages of the men? Obviously you're

12 amongst them, but what was the approximate ages of the other men who were

13 with you?

14 A. Most of them were over 50. 50 or 55.

15 Q. No young men?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were there guards on the bus?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now you started to describe a bus trip that -- that -- the

20 journey that the bus took. Now I want you to tell the Trial Chamber

21 about that particular journey.

22 Which direction did you go, first of all?

23 A. We set off towards Piskavice, to a store, where one Muradif

24 worked. Below the road the -- near my house there is a cafe. I

25 recognised four or five men lying on the concrete outside the cafe.

Page 7366

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I went down to Muradif's house --

3 Q. First of all, just so we're clear about where these places are.

4 Where is -- where is the -- where is this cafe that you talk about where

5 you saw men lying on the ground? Is it in your village or is it in

6 Piskavice, or is it sort of in between? Can you tell the Trial Chamber?

7 A. It's on the road. It's about 100 metres from my house.

8 Q. So it's in the village of Drum.

9 Now what did you see -- who -- who did you see lying on the

10 ground at the cafe in your village?

11 A. I saw Braco, that was what they called him. Goro. Those are two

12 brothers. Osmo and two brothers, one was called Jasmin, and I don't know

13 the others -- the name of the other brother. Jaco and Goro are Pavle's

14 sons, and Osmo is their brother-in-law.

15 Q. Had they been shot?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Continue your story of the bus's trip. Tell the

18 Trial Chamber how it happened. Where was the next place you went to

19 after the cafe?

20 A. We continued for another 150 or 200 metres. Reached a

21 cross-roads. There is a shop there. We made a U-turn there. I saw a

22 fat soldier escorting one person he held his hands on his head. He

23 worked in the bauxite mine as a driver. His house is one thousand metres

24 from mine. He got on the bus with me and when we reached

25 Sitce [as interpreted] I saw four our five soldiers, I only recognised

Page 7367

1 one. I don't know the others. When we got there, he told us to get into

2 the hangar. There was no one in the hangar and we got inside.

3 Q. Thank you. We've gone way ahead now. I would just like to go

4 back to the bus trip, and this, I think, would be a good moment to try

5 again with that photograph.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we have 65 ter 3569 up on the -- up on the

7 screen, please.

8 Thank you.

9 Q. Now, we'd like this to be marked as simply and as clearly as

10 possible. So, please, please, think about what I ask you, all right?

11 Now, what I want you to do is to draw an arrow. I want you to

12 draw an arrow on the road, pointing in the direction of Piskavice so that

13 anyone looking that map -- sorry, in that photo can see in which

14 Piskavice is.

15 So draw an arrow alongside the road that goes in the direction of

16 Piskavice, a small arrow.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the usher please give him the appropriate --

19 it's yellow apparently, and that's not coming up on the screen. In fact,

20 I think the witness isn't doing anything wrong at all.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MR. DI FAZIO:

23 Q. Just stop marking the screen, please, Witness. Thanks.

24 We'll try a different colour if that might work, because the

25 yellow, apparently - and can you see it - it simply doesn't show anything

Page 7368

1 at all.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Thank you. Good. Now we've got something that can mark. So

4 thank you. You've marked the direction of Piskavice.

5 And that's in the opposite direction towards Vlasenica; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, holding your very steady hand, draw a line

8 around the village where you saw the soldiers standing -- or, rather,

9 squatting or lying down before this attack that you've described

10 happened. Where were they positioned, the soldiers who you saw very

11 early that morning.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Good. Thank you very much. That's very clear. Excellent.

14 Now you said you'd also saw a cafe where you saw some bodies

15 lying on the ground in your village. If you can see that cafe, or the

16 approximate position of that cafe, can you mark it with a small X.

17 For the purposes of record, if Your Honours please, the witness

18 has marked it with a circle and a small line on the right of the circle.

19 I tender that particular image.

20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1053, Your Honours.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

23 Q. Now -- I want to ask you now about the final destination of your

24 trip on this bus. Tell the Trial Chamber where you ended up. You used

25 the name of some place Sitce before. I want the full correct name of

Page 7369

1 this place that you went to, the place that you ended up in the bus.

2 A. Susica.

3 Q. What was there? What sort of buildings were there?

4 A. There was a large building, 50 metres long, 20 metres wide. It

5 was empty. There was nothing to be seen inside. There was a huge door.

6 It might have been a store house. It was like a garage door. I saw the

7 door from the direction from which we arrived, and inside it was empty.

8 Q. Were you taken off the bus and given instructions?

9 A. We were given no instructions. We just got off the bus. The

10 soldiers who were there told us to go inside and sit down. When we got

11 inside, there was nowhere to sit so we sat on the concrete. I counted us

12 when we got inside. There were 28 of us inside. We were alone for about

13 an hour, and then women, children, and all the men started pouring inside

14 through the door, so that by midnight there were over a thousand of us

15 there.

16 Q. So let's go through this a bit more slowly.

17 First, I take it that when you first arrived, your busload was

18 the first to go into this hangar at Susica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did the place have to be cleaned out at all or emptied?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Very well. Do you know a woman Dzevada Salihovic?

23 A. Dzevada Salihovic was Goro's wife, and she was Fata's

24 daughter-in-law.

25 Q. Was she a prisoner there along with you?

Page 7370

1 A. Yes, she was. I saw her there at Susica too, and she was

2 pregnant.

3 Q. All right. You've talked about at the end of the day there were

4 about a thousand people. Were they all contained in this one hangar or

5 warehouse that you were placed in?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And was that men, women, and children?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you've, I think, described a process whereby they were coming

10 in and being put into that place throughout the day. Did they all arrive

11 by bus or did they -- some come on foot? Do you know how they got there?

12 A. No, I don't know. I was inside. I couldn't see.

13 Q. And what was the ethnicity of these people who were being put

14 into this warehouse along with you?

15 A. Bosniaks.

16 Q. Thank you. Tell the Trial Chamber -- well, firstly, let me

17 rephrase that. It's --

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm not quite clear whether there

19 were anybody in the hanger when the witness came. Was his bus the first

20 load of prisoners or were there already people there when they came?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: That's my understanding that his bus load was the

22 first, but I will ask him to clarify that.

23 Q. You heard His Honour's question. What we want to know is this.

24 You told us when your bus first arrived there and you were taken off it

25 and put into the hangar, were you the first prisoners there? Was there

Page 7371

1 any other prisoners there, or was your bus load the very first into

2 Susica camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I take it from your answer that yours was the first bus load into

5 Susica camp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, it's not going to be in dispute, I don't think, but

8 you were kept at this place for about a month. Now, I want you to

9 describe to the Trial Chamber the conditions that unfolded over the first

10 few days that you were there.

11 You told the Trial Chamber what the toilet conditions were like?

12 A. There there was no toilet to speak of. In fact, when we went

13 outside to the toilet, we would go in tens or 15 or 20 of us would be

14 escorted to some sort of a hole that they had actually dug and put some

15 boards over it. This was behind the hangar. We couldn't talk. There

16 were guards around the hole. When you were finished, you would go back

17 into the hangar. You would sit there. They would close the door. They

18 would shove inside anyone whom they brought and close the door. The

19 conditions -- there were no conditions to speak of. We had nothing to

20 eat for two days. On the third day we were given some rice and a slice

21 of bread.

22 On the third day, some sort of a delegation came from the

23 municipality. I recognised one of them. He worked at the municipality.

24 I don't know his name. They brought a desk. They brought some

25 notebooks. You were to be inscribed there. They asked you whether you

Page 7372

1 wanted to leave Vlasenica. You would say yes or no. There was a bus

2 leading to Kladanj, those who signed the list went away and these were

3 predominantly women, children and elderly men.

4 Q. All right. Okay.

5 A. I didn't even approach the desk. They didn't ask me --

6 Q. All right. Thanks for that. Now, I'd like to ask you a bit more

7 about these people who came on, I think -- I think you said the third

8 day. Yes, the third day.

9 First of all, these people who came and set up the desk there, do

10 you know who they were? Were they public officials of some sort, were

11 they soldiers, were they policemen? Do you know who they were?

12 A. They were civilians. There were no soldiers. They didn't have

13 any uniforms. They worked in the municipality. I knew one of them. I

14 didn't know the rest of them. I knew one. He was a Serb.

15 Q. Okay. And you told us about this document or something that you

16 had to sign, and say whether you wanted to leave Vlasenica.

17 Were there any conditions attached to leaving Vlasenica that you

18 were aware of? Anything that you had to agree to in order to get out of

19 that place by signing?

20 A. They only asked who wanted to leave Vlasenica. And they said

21 walk up to us here. We shall give him a certificate, enabling him to

22 leave Vlasenica because there was a roadblock down there, so that

23 document was needed in order for them not to be mistreated or sent back.

24 This is what I heard from the people who came there from the

25 municipality.

Page 7373

1 Q. Did you sign the document?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. Why not?

4 A. I didn't even approach that desk.

5 Q. You -- did you find out what -- what it meant to sign the

6 document, what you were agreeing to?

7 A. The way I understood it, if you signed, you were abandoning

8 voluntarily your home, your estate, your holding. You were leaving

9 Vlasenica of your own accord. Nobody was driving you away.

10 Q. Okay. thank you. Thank you. Now, you've mentioned that the way

11 you understood it, you were abandoning voluntarily your home, your estate

12 and your holding.

13 Who told you that that was what the document meant?

14 A. Nobody told me that, but that's what I thought to myself. That

15 if I signed it, I would go away, that I would never return. Nobody was

16 driving anyone to do anything. This man only asked, If you want to leave

17 Vlasenica and go in the direction of Kladanj, approach freely. You will

18 be given a document to that effect so that nobody might send you back

19 when you reach the roadblock.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Is this -- what time do Your Honours wish to ...

22 another five minutes?

23 JUDGE HALL: We have about three minutes. If your next question

24 is going to take you beyond that, I suppose we can break at this point.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I think I'd like to finish this topic, if I

Page 7374

1 can.

2 Q. Now, turn to the people who did sign this document. Were they

3 mostly men, mostly women, or both?

4 A. Mostly women and children, and whoever wanted to go in the

5 direction of Kladanj.

6 Q. And did this result in men and women being emptied out of the

7 camp?

8 My apologies, let me rephrase that question. Did this result in

9 the women and children being emptied out of the camp.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now think carefully about this. Did it result in all of the

12 women leaving the camp, or did some women remain and not sign?

13 A. About 20 women remained, not more than that. So 800 might have

14 left. During those two days when they were allowed to leave, the women

15 and children, namely.

16 Q. Now think about the women who stayed, the ones who remained. Are

17 you aware of any reason why those women chose to remain.

18 A. I saw that there were many women with their husbands there, and

19 they didn't wanted to sign the list, they didn't want to leave. They had

20 their reasons. I did not talk to them, so I don't know.

21 Q. While you were there in the camp in the first few days before

22 most of the women left, were any women taken out of the camp or taken out

23 of that hangar in which you were.

24 A. One evening, two men came, and they took away about eight girls

25 between 18 and 20 years of age. They said there they were taking them to

Page 7375

1 an old man's house to clean his flat. That evening, they left. They did

2 not return.

3 The next morning the bus to Kladanj came. One of the women who

4 had signed the list said, I'm not going until my daughter returns.

5 I saw a policeman who worked at the SUP. He asked this other

6 policeman where are the girls. I didn't hear what the other one replied.

7 And the first one walked up to this woman and said, Do not worry, they

8 will be coming any minute now. Not -- after about half an hour they came

9 across the bridge, so they had left the previous night and they returned

10 the next morning about 8.00 or 9.00 and that is what I saw.

11 Q. What sort of conditions were they in, these girls who returned?

12 A. They returned in the same condition as when I saw them left in

13 the same clothes. I did not see that they were beaten. I didn't see any

14 marks on them. But they did not enter the hangar anymore. They remained

15 by the desk. The bus was parked by the desk, and I never saw them again

16 after that.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: This would be an appropriate moment, if Your

18 Honours please?

19 JUDGE HALL: We break and return in 20 minutes.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

23 [The witness takes the stand]

24 MR. DI FAZIO: May I... thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. Witness, before the break, I was asking you about your time in

Page 7376

1 Susica camp. You told us about the men who came and set up the desk and

2 how people could sign and leave.

3 In the period of time that you were there, were any of the men

4 who were prisoners taken out of the camp and interrogated?

5 A. They took people from the camp to the SUP, the Secretariat for

6 Internal Affairs for integration. But what went on in there, I don't

7 know.

8 Q. Yes. Well, don't worry about what you don't know and just listen

9 to my questions okay?

10 You were in the Susica for about a month. Was this --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- taking of men out to the SUP, did that go on for the whole

13 month, or was it just from time to time, or only when you were there at

14 the beginning; can you remember?

15 A. Well, occasionally, a man would be first detained, asked if he

16 had a weapon. The man would say no. They said, We had a list, you are

17 on that list as owning a weapon. We'll take you to the SUP --

18 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you about that -- what they were asked about

19 in due course.

20 Just go back and listen to my question. What I want to know is

21 were men being taken out to the SUP all the time, sometimes, at the

22 beginning of the time -- when you were there, throughout the whole month?

23 How often were men taken away for this sort of interrogation?

24 A. From time to time. A man, when arrested, would be taken there,

25 asked if he had a weapon, searched --

Page 7377

1 Q. Okay. From time to time. Thank you.

2 Now, can I ask you -- the next question I want to ask you about,

3 from time to time as these men were taken away, who would actually

4 physically come in, select the man, and take him away?

5 A. Whoever had the key to the hangar would come to the door, open

6 it, call out a name, or several names, and the men would come out, and

7 that's all I knew.

8 Q. Did you ever speak to the men after they came back?

9 A. Yes, I spoke to one man who was sitting next to me. I asked

10 where had you been? He said at the SUP. What did they ask you? He

11 says, To confess that I had a weapon. Somebody put me on a list, saying

12 I had bought a semi-automatic rifle. And I would say, Well, if you

13 didn't, you didn't.

14 Q. Okay. And you've said that you spoke to one man. Did you ever

15 speak to other men who been taken out to -- for the sorts of visits to

16 the SUP?

17 A. No.

18 Q. How do the know the other men went to the SUP? You only spoke to

19 one.

20 A. Well, because this receptionist at the door would call out the

21 names and say to these men, You, go to the SUP now and give some

22 statements.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you ever notice the condition, the physical

24 condition of these men, upon their return to -- from the SUP?

25 A. Only one man I saw, when he came back, all black and blue. He

Page 7378

1 was obviously beaten up. But I didn't see any others.

2 Q. All right. Were you ever selected for this -- to be interviewed?

3 A. No.

4 Q. In the time that you were in Susica, did you -- did you know a

5 gentleman named -- or nicknamed -- either named or nicknamed Muradif?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Veljko Basic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was his occupation?

10 A. He used to be a policeman. I don't know if he was retired. He

11 came to Susica and I found out from one young man over there that he a

12 mark on his skin, and I asked, What is that? And that man said, It's

13 from a bullet in Vukovar. He was camp commander for seven days.

14 Veljko Basic then came and took over the camp, but he only stayed for

15 seven days before some Dragan, nicknamed Jenki, came and took over from

16 him. He stayed behind in Susica after me.

17 Q. Okay. Just slow it down because this -- I think there might be a

18 little bit of confusion here. You've talked about camp commanders, I'm

19 now going to ask you about camp commanders. Let's see if we can tell the

20 Trial Chamber who the camp commanders were and let's do it in sequence,

21 okay, from the beginning to the end of your period of time.

22 Think carefully about the question. When you first got to

23 Susica, who was the camp commander? When you first got there.

24 A. A young soldier, around 20, he had a rifle. He was wearing a

25 camouflage uniform, like the uniform of the IFOR now. He such a green

Page 7379

1 camouflage uniform. And he had this scar across his cheek. He was camp

2 commander for seven days. And he admitted all these people who were

3 brought in to the camp.

4 So seven days after, Veljko Basic, the one who used to be a

5 policeman, took over. But he also stayed only for seven days. He was

6 together with a colleague who was a retired policeman.

7 Q. Thank you. Good, good.

8 And just continue on. After Basic, who came next,

9 A. Dragan, Jenki, took over from Basic.

10 Q. That was his full correct name, Dragan Jenki?

11 A. Dragan is his first name. They called him Jenki. I don't know

12 his last name.

13 Q. Jenki is a nickname; correct?

14 A. Nickname, yes.

15 Q. All right. And was he -- this Dragan, whatever his surname was,

16 did he remain commander of the camp until you left?

17 A. Yes, yes he remained.

18 Q. And do you know what his occupation was? Perhaps I should be

19 clearer, do you know if he was a policeman or a politician or --

20 A. He was a worker. He worked in the warehouse behind the Alp

21 company.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours just bear with me.

23 Thanks.

24 Q. Eventually, did you leave Susica camp and transfer to Batkovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7380

1 Q. And how did it come about that you were taken from Susica to

2 Batkovic?

3 A. The day before, Dragan, Jenki came to our door and said buses

4 would arrive tomorrow to transfer you to Batkovic. There is a collection

5 centre there. He didn't call it a camp. There is work there, he said,

6 you can work there. There is more food there, because we don't have

7 enough food here. So buses would arrive and take to you Batkovic. If

8 you don't get all transferred today -- tomorrow, then within a few day,

9 you'll all be able to leave.

10 Q. Thank you. And perhaps -- perhaps - you okay there? - perhaps

11 before we leave Susica, you earlier this morning you told the Trial

12 Chamber about the conditions that existed in Susica. I'm talking about

13 the food, the lavatories, and -- and your sleeping conditions in the

14 hangar. Did they -- did they ever change? Did they ever get better or

15 did they just remain the same throughout your month or the approximate

16 period of time that you were in Susica?

17 A. Same.

18 Q. And -- thank you for that. Getting back now to your transfer to

19 Batkovic. Were you given any choice in the matter?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Can you remember the approximate date that you transferred from

22 Susica to Batkovic?

23 A. On the 28th of that month, it started, when the first group left.

24 And that first group was from Kalesija municipality. I know that's where

25 they brought them to Susica from. There were about 200 of them. They

Page 7381

1 were the first to leave. I didn't see how many buses left on that day,

2 but on the day when I left, there were five buses.

3 Q. Loaded up with men?

4 A. People, yeah.

5 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the men who were being transferred

6 from Susica -- or people who were being transferred from Susica to

7 Batkovic?

8 A. Bosniaks, Muslims, all of them.

9 Q. How long did you remain in Batkovic?

10 A. I was exchanged on the 7th of December, in Donje --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the name of the

12 place.

13 MR. DI FAZIO:

14 Q. Do I take it that you were in Batkovic up until the 7th of

15 December, when you were exchanged?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who guarded or secured Batkovic?

18 A. Soldiers guarded mostly. Mostly from the military reserve. They

19 were wearing military uniforms.

20 Q. Did the police ever provide guard -- guards at Batkovic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What was the ethnicity of the prisoners who were at Batkovic?

23 A. Those that I knew were Bosniaks. I don't know from which

24 municipalities. I was in a hangar where there 1.600 of us. We were from

25 various municipalities, Kalesija, Brezevo Polje, Koraj [phoen],

Page 7382

1 Vlasenica, Zvornik municipalities, and they grouped people by

2 municipality of origin.

3 Q. Did any of these prisoners do any work?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What sort of work did they do?

6 A. I didn't see because I didn't go out to work of. I never left

7 the hangar except to go outside within within the perimeter that was

8 fenced in with wire fence. I was relieved from work being disabled.

9 There were about 20 of them, I don't know where they went and what they

10 did. That's all I can say.

11 Q. When you say "there were 20 of them," are you saying that out of

12 all of the prisoners in Batkovic, only 20 did work? Do I understand you

13 correctly or not?

14 A. No. No, there were 20 of us disabled who did not go out to work,

15 who sat inside.

16 Q. Okay. Now you said that you didn't see the work that these

17 prisoners did because you didn't go out to work and you've explained that

18 that was because you were disabled. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Listen to the question -- just listen to the question. You may

21 not have seen it, the sort of work that these men did, did you ever hear

22 from them, after they'd been out to work what sort of work they did? The

23 sorts of things that they were doing in the months that you were there?

24 Okay. Yes --

25 A. Yes, some said that they had been out felling trees with electric

Page 7383

1 saws. Other people were picking peaches or whatever was being harvested,

2 fruit, corn. That's what they said they had done.

3 Q. Did you ever obtain any information about who guarded these men?

4 And, in particular, I'm thinking about the men who did the agricultural

5 sorts of duties, picking the peaches and the harvest and so on.

6 Did they ever say who it was who guarded them?

7 A. Well, depends on where they were going. If they were going to

8 the Ugljevik factory, they would go in a group of a hundred with one

9 guard. If there was a place to sleep there, they would spend the night

10 there and they would be given food. Those returned from that factory

11 said that they had eaten well at the factory, and they even brought food

12 back. Some others went to help build schools and houses, such as people

13 from Kalesija, they came back really fat, carrying tinned food. They

14 said they had been treated well. They had been guarded by soldiers.

15 They said they had spent three months there on that stint. And wherever

16 they went out to work it was all on private farms. And they would be

17 given food there.

18 At that time even I got three meals a day. The army brought food

19 from Bijeljina in jeeps. We would be given breakfast, lunch, and dinner

20 and those who went out to work, they were fed even better.

21 Q. And apart from the army providing guards, did you hear of any

22 other institution providing guards?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like to show the witness MFI P1048, please.

Page 7384

1 It's in e-court. It was used yesterday, and I'd like to start by going

2 to the ERN ending 8972, which is page 1 of that document. MFI P1048.

3 Thank you.

4 And if I may seek the assistance of the usher in getting the --

5 focussing on the last name on that page.

6 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you, in fact I'll read it out to

7 you, a name, and all I want from you is a very simple piece of

8 information, was this person in Batkovic with you or not.

9 And the name I want you to look at is the last one there, number

10 24, Ragib Alihodzic.

11 Now, was this guy in Batkovic with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Could we scroll to the side of that name for some

14 more details. Thank you.

15 Now, there's a date there which other -- other information that

16 we have shows some date of entry, do you know -- do you know if he went

17 to Batkovic about the same time as you did?

18 A. Yes.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO:

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Now I'd like, please, to go to page 13 of the

23 exhibit. That's the ERN ending 8984. Yes, okay. Thank you.

24 And if we could just expand a bit so that we can see number 9.

25 Q. Now, Witness, there's another name I want to ask you about, Amir