Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7646

 1                           Tuesday, 16 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances for today,

10     please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner, assisted

12     by Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

15     this morning.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

17     Miroslav Cuskic for Zupljanin Defence.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             Would the Usher kindly escort the witness back to the stand,

20     please.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, Mr. Tutus.  Before I invite

24     Ms. Korner to resume her examination-in-chief, I would remind you you're

25     still on your oath.

Page 7647

 1             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 2             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] ... just as well, I

 5     haven't got the mic on.

 6                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR TUTUS [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

 9        Q.   Mr. Tutus, I am afraid I just want to go back over a couple of

10     things we dealt with towards the end of yesterday.

11             You told the Court yesterday, when we were dealing with the SOS,

12     that you had prosecuted members of the SOS.

13             Do you actually mean prosecution, or do you mean filing a

14     criminal report?

15        A.   Well, did I what the organs of internal affairs have to do.

16     That's what I had in mind, and what they had to do was to file criminal

17     reports.

18        Q.   All right.  Could you tell us against which members of the SOS

19     you filed criminal reports?

20        A.   I can't remember any individual cases.

21        Q.   I just want to check with you.  Are you sure that you actually

22     filed criminal reports in respect of members of the SOS, as members of

23     the SOS, as opposed to filing criminal reports against members of the SOS

24     who went into the Special Police?

25        A.   I was thinking of members of those groups, those men from the

Page 7648

 1     SOS, who, at the time, committed various crimes.  They took gold, stole

 2     gold, jewelry, they did that sort of thing.  So there was theft at the

 3     check-points, and whenever there were document, evidence, the citizens

 4     would report those cases and would -- then we would process the crimes.

 5     That's what I have in mind.

 6        Q.   All right.  And you can't now remember any names?

 7        A.   I can't.  The crime police was involved in that.  I know this was

 8     done, but I can't remember any individual names.

 9        Q.   All right.  The other matter I want to go back over is this.

10     That we looked yesterday at the newspaper article, where Mr. Zupljanin

11     was -- was talking about the formation of the Special Police.  And, in

12     particular, said that members of the SOS would be incorporated.  And you

13     said that, in your view -- I better just find your exact words.

14             Yes, it was just before you were talking about prosecuting them.

15     And ... you said that you -- you -- you didn't know about that until you

16     may have read the article.

17             Do you remember?  You said:

18             "I did not know that the SOS was placed under the jurisdiction of

19     the CSB."

20             And that's at page 66 of the unrevised LiveNote.

21             I want to go back to the -- the meetings that were being held at

22     the time of the SOS appearance on the barricades which you spoke about.

23     And you said that you had been there when Predrag Radic was there, and

24     there were discussions being held about what was to be done about the

25     SOS.

Page 7649

 1             Do you remember telling us about that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.

 3        Q.   Yeah.  Now, this is a matter you were asked about in your

 4     interview, and, if necessary, you can refresh your memory from it.  Was

 5     there any discussion with Mr. Radic about whether the SOS should go into

 6     the reserve police?

 7        A.   Yes.  But not into the reserve police.  There was discussion

 8     about the fact that the SOS members should be used to form a

 9     Special Police unit.

10        Q.   So that was -- there was discussion on the day that they were

11     there, with the barricades up, on the 3rd of April, as to whether they

12     should form a Special Police unit?

13        A.   That was towards the end of the negotiations.  It wasn't on the

14     first day.  Perhaps on the third or fourth.  Towards the end, when all

15     the events had come to an end.

16        Q.   But you say this was -- this wasn't on the first day.  The whole

17     incident with the barricades and the negotiations only lasted one day.

18        A.   Yes.  But the discussions about how to solve their status

19     continued for the following two or three days.

20        Q.   All right.  And who was involved in those discussions?

21        A.   Well, President Radic convened a brief meeting.  We were there

22     with him, and he asked that I use that group of men to form a

23     Special Police unit, as part of the Banja Luka SJB, and I refused to do

24     this.

25        Q.   I'll come on to your refusal in a moment.

Page 7650

 1             When you say "we," who else was there, apart from you and

 2     President Radic?

 3        A.   Well, I remember that Milan Puvacic, Jovo Rosic were there.  At

 4     one of the last meetings, General Kelecevic was present, the Chief of

 5     Staff of the 1st Krajina Corps, and he supported me at that point in

 6     time.

 7        Q.   Yes, but, well, what about Mr. Zupljanin as -- as the chief of

 8     the CSB?  Was he present at any of these discussions?

 9        A.   I think so.

10        Q.   And Radoslav Brdjanin?

11        A.   I can't remember whether he was there from the beginning, but I

12     do believe that he did appear.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, you say that you refused.  And what was the

14     reason for your refusal?

15        A.   Well, the reason was that I was convinced that police forces can

16     only be formed in accordance with the law, and that is the responsibility

17     of the Ministry of the Interior.

18        Q.   All right.  So you're saying, are you, that you didn't have the

19     authority to form a Special Police unit within the SJB?

20        A.   I didn't have such authority.

21        Q.   All right.  So you refused.  Did your refusal have anything to do

22     with the fact that by then you knew that at least some of the people in

23     the SOS were convicted criminals?

24        A.   Regardless of that fact, I wouldn't have accepted establishing

25     such units, even if they hadn't been criminals, because that was against

Page 7651

 1     the law.  But, yes, that was an additional factor.

 2        Q.   So let's go back to when the -- when Mr. Zupljanin announced in a

 3     press conference about the formation of this Special Police unit into

 4     which members of the SOS would be absorbed.

 5             In the light of what you had already said to Mr. Radic and others

 6     when the suggestion was made, did you raise the question with

 7     Mr. Zupljanin as to what authority he had to do this and whether the SOS

 8     were the right people to put into a Special Police unit?

 9        A.   I remember that, at the end of the second or third day, after

10     those events, we were sitting next to each other in President Radic's

11     office, myself and Mr. Zupljanin.  And on that occasion, they asked me --

12     Radic kept saying, Vlado, have you decided to accept these people?  And I

13     kept saying that I stood by my initial position, and it was out of the

14     question for these men to become part of a unit within the SJB.

15             Then they tried to persuade Mr. Radic [as interpreted] that the

16     town wasn't sufficiently secure and that was the reason for which they

17     were insisting that about 200 young men should be accepted into a unit;

18     it would increase the safety in town.  I said that as for safety in the

19     town it was for me to assess whether it was safe or not.  He asked me

20     what the safety situation was like and I said that it was fairly

21     satisfactory.  He insisted on increasing the level of safety in town.

22             I then suggested that if the social and political community and

23     he, as the president, want the safety to be increased, then the -- it was

24     necessary to reserve -- to mobilise the reserve TO in accordance with the

25     law.  They would then protect the bridges, the streets, and so on.  I

Page 7652

 1     said that this is how we would increase security.

 2             He again insisted on having this unit and then asked me to get

 3     into the car with him and to drive around town.  Then I asked, Stojan, I

 4     said, Stole, what do you want me to do?  And he said calmly, quietly,

 5     Well, Vlado, what are you going to do now?  Go and look around.

 6             I saw that he wasn't very willing and I saw that he understood

 7     why I was refusing to act in a certain way.  But pressure was being

 8     exerted on him for him to do that.  I then went off with President Radic.

 9     I said, Well, if they continue on insisting on this, I won't appear

10     anymore.  Then Stole said, Vlado, leave it, go around town.

11             So I did.  On the following day there was another meeting and

12     then General Kelecevic appeared and President Radic asked me again

13     whether I had changed my opinion and whether I would accept those men as

14     a unit.  I said, Very well, into the reserve force but as individuals,

15     and they must previously be checked.  He then reacted and said, Well, it

16     is not necessary to check them.  I said that men who had a criminal

17     record couldn't become part of the reserve police force.  Kelecevic then

18     got up and said to President Radic, he said, President, Mr. Tutus is

19     [Realtime transcript read in error "isn't"] right, don't ask him to do

20     that.  He said, General, is that something you mean?  And the General

21     said, Yes, I'm serious about that.

22             And that was the end.  No one then called me after that or put

23     any questions to me.

24        Q.   All right.  I?

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner.  There a couple

Page 7653

 1     of things which have not been recorded correctly.

 2             First of all, page 6, line 13:  "Then they tried to persuade," I

 3     believe the witness said "me" not "Mr. Radic."  It was Mr. Radic who was

 4     trying to persuade him.  That's line 13.

 5             And page 7, 10:  "He said, President, Mr. Tutus is right," not

 6     isn't.  It is recorded "isn't right."  But the witness said -- he was

 7     quoting what the General said and General said, "President, Mr. Tutus is

 8     right."

 9             Thank you, Your Honour.

10             MS. KORNER:  Yes, thank you --

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:  I accept that.

13        Q.   I want to just pursue this matter of the suggestion that there

14     was insufficient officers to maintain security in the town.

15             By this time, April 1992, had there been a mobilisation of the

16     reserve police?

17        A.   To be quite frank, I think so.  I think so.

18        Q.   And, again, you were asked about this in your interview at

19     page 75.  And was the figure when -- or the numbers of police which had

20     been mobilised, I would suggest, way back in 1991, something in the

21     reason to 5 to 600?

22        A.   I think it's between 4 and 500, not more than that.

23        Q.   All right.  You said 4 -- but you think 4 to 500 rather than

24     5 to 600?

25        A.   That's right.

Page 7654

 1        Q.   So, in addition to the regular police employees which you had

 2     about -- you told us around 250 to 260, there were the further 4 to

 3     500 reserve police officers?

 4        A.   Yes.  That was the -- the system.  But I don't think they were

 5     all mobilised.  I think that the mobilisation was only up to 50 per cent,

 6     not 100 per cent of the forces had been mobilised.

 7        Q.   All right.  But in any event, you had considerably more men at

 8     your disposal than there were members of the SOS.  Is that a fair

 9     assessment?

10        A.   Well, yes, we had more men.  I was told there were about 200 of

11     them.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, thank you.  That's all I want to ask about

13     those matters.

14             MS. KORNER:  Can we --

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner --

16             MS. KORNER:  Yes, certainly.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Can I just put a question to Mr. Tutus, and I

18     apologise if I have misunderstood the -- the -- the circumstances or --

19     that were present in this discussion about whether or not the members of

20     the SOS could or should become members of a new Special Police unit.

21             Because you told us that Radic put this proposal to you.  And my

22     question is:  Can you tell us in which capacity Mr. Radic wanted to

23     establish this new police unit?

24             I'm especially, of course, asking, again, into the question of

25     whether or not Mr. Radic was acting in his capacity as member of the

Page 7655

 1     Crisis Staff or his membership of the War Presidency.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His position in the discussion was

 3     that of a -- the president of the Assembly.  He was at the head of the

 4     negotiation team that spoke to SOS representatives.  And that's where the

 5     idea was born.  The idea that some of them - that's how I understood it -

 6     should be included in the police forces as a unit.  And as a member of

 7     the negotiation team, as the head of the negotiation team this is what he

 8     requested.  But, naturally, he played the role of president and I believe

 9     that he wanted to solve that problem.  Someone promised them that that

10     would be done, and he tried to reach a peaceful solution through

11     negotiations.  And I think one of the conditions was that, that they

12     should become a police unit.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  But was the Municipal Assembly still

14     alive and in force at the time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, everything functioned, except

16     that day when that happened wasn't normal, but the institutions remained.

17     They operated.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

19             MS. KORNER:  Could we now move -- could we now move, please, on

20     in the month of May of 1992.

21        Q.   And could you have a look, please, at a document which is P561.

22             This is from the CSB, addressed to all -- it's a dispatch

23     addressed to the chief of all public security stations.  And if we look

24     at the bottom in the B/C/S, you can see it comes from Mr. Zupljanin.

25     Yeah.

Page 7656

 1             This document is about the seizure of illegally owned weapons,

 2     et cetera, and all I want to ask but is this.  It starts:

 3             "In keeping with the decision of the Autonomous Region of the

 4     Bosnian Krajina regarding the surrender of illegally owned weapons and

 5     ammunition ..." and refers to the previous dispatches, "public security

 6     stations must undertake the following ..."

 7             Now, this follows on from Mr. Zupljanin saying publicly that the

 8     Special Police are going to be formed as a result of the decision by the

 9     Assembly of the autonomous region.  Here is he referring to the decision

10     for the surrender of weapons.

11             Now, as chief did you get a copy of this document?

12        A.   I believe I did.

13        Q.   And did you notice that -- that, again, the decision of the

14     Autonomous Region of Krajina was being referred to?

15        A.   To tell you quite frankly, I didn't pay attention at the time.

16     Now I can see it, but whether I gave it any thought at the time, I really

17     couldn't say.  Maybe it caught my eye; I don't know.

18        Q.   And just dealing with that, did you in fact put into place

19     concrete plans for the seizure of illegal weapons?

20        A.   We did undertake activities following this dispatch, and we

21     worked actively to seize weapons.  We even toured local communes.

22     President Radic and I, together, told all the local communes in

23     Banja Luka and appealed to citizens, if they owned illegal weapons

24     without being a part of the police force or the VRS to surrender them and

25     they would not be subject to prosecution if they did so.  We toured a lot

Page 7657

 1     of communes and the representatives of the Catholic church attended some

 2     of the meetings.  I can't remember if there were any representatives of

 3     the Islamic community, but I know that somebody from the Catholic church

 4     was with us.

 5        Q.   Would that have been Bishop Komarica?

 6        A.   I'm not sure about Bishop Komarica.  I believe one of the

 7     lower-ranking priests went.

 8        Q.   Did illegal weapons include those who had permits for hunting

 9     rifles?

10        A.   Illegal weapons mean weapons owned without a licence.  Or perhaps

11     a weapon that was issued by the army by somebody who later deserted

12     without returning the weapon, and it was our aim to seize such weapons.

13     The police force was tasked to also seize weapons from those who had

14     licences but were of interest to the security forces, were estimated to

15     be a threat, or who had deserted.  We intended to later return these

16     weapons to these people.  But we -- our main objective was to enhance

17     security in town.

18        Q.   And who was -- when you say -- sorry.  When you say "a threat,"

19     do you mean a threat to the security of the Serb Republic?

20        A.   I don't think I used the word "threat."  I said we wanted to

21     raise security culture to a higher level.

22        Q.   Well, the translation and what you were recorded as saying,

23     literally a few seconds ago, was:

24             "... the police force was tasked to also seize weapons from those

25     who ... were estimated to be a threat, or who had deserted."

Page 7658

 1             That's why I'm asking you why -- a threat to whom, or what?

 2        A.   The word "threat" was a misinterpretation.  The exact word I used

 3     was individuals of security interest.  That is, people who are estimated

 4     by the police on the ground to have violated military regulations by

 5     deserting and from such people we seized weapons.

 6             Known criminals also, alcoholics, people bent on violations of

 7     law and public order.  It was up to the police officers on the ground to

 8     make an appraisal, an evaluation, and decide from whom they would seize

 9     weapons.

10        Q.   All right.  Was the seizure of legally owned hunting rifles from

11     people who -- from individuals of security interest, did that target any

12     one nationality in particular, or more than one?

13        A.   Under the Law on the Possession of Weapons and Ammunition, there

14     was an article that authorised us to seize even legal weapons when it is

15     estimated that the possession of such a weapon may be a jeopardy to the

16     security of the country or public order.  I think that's the phrasing.

17             You could not target an ethnic group.  It's a matter of estimate

18     aimed at any citizen who is evaluated in this way.

19        Q.   Yes, we're now back to where we were originally, which is a

20     threat to security effectively.  Here you call it "a jeopardy to the

21     security of the country."

22             Which nationalities were considered to be a threat to the

23     security of the Serbian state?

24        A.   In Bosnia and Herzegovina, a civil war was going on.  On one side

25     were Serbs and on the other side were Croats and Muslims.  And between

Page 7659

 1     these ethnic groups, war was being waged.

 2        Q.   All right.  I think we're getting there.  Is it -- is it your

 3     evidence that, in fact, because of what you say was a civil war, it was

 4     the Croats and the Muslims in the Banja Luka area who were being targeted

 5     for the removal of lawfully owned hunting rifles?

 6        A.   You couldn't say that they were targeted.

 7        Q.   Let's move on.  Thank you very much.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can we move now, please, to the document, which

 9     is -- sorry.  Yes, it's document, please, number P1013, please.

10        Q.   This is a communication from the Ministry of Interior which is

11     being forwarded by Mr. Zupljanin to the chiefs.  And it deals with the --

12     what is called unprincipled behaviour among the police reserve force in

13     certain public security stations, and a collegium of ministers decided

14     that persons convicted of criminal acts, except those related to traffic,

15     et cetera, cannot be part of the police reserves.  And employees who do

16     not fulfil the conditions prescribed for the police reserves are to

17     return their equipment to the police stations to be placed at the

18     disposal of the Serbian Territorial Defence.

19             Now did that affect any of the reserve police attached to your

20     SJB?

21        A.   I understand we received this dispatch.

22             The reserve police force under my command was from before the

23     war.  We had a full complement already before the war and it was implied,

24     that was the regulation that people with a criminal record could not be

25     admitted into the reserve force.  The reserve force was clean.  However,

Page 7660

 1     if there had been some oversights later in individual cases and somebody

 2     was admitted without meeting the standards, we -- we followed this

 3     dispatch.

 4        Q.   So at the time of the 18th of May, are you saying that nobody in

 5     the reserve police force at -- under your authority fell into the

 6     category of those who had been convicted of a criminal act?

 7        A.   I wouldn't say that there were no cases at all, but there were

 8     certainly very few.  But we certainly honoured this dispatch.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Now, very briefly, can we look, please, at document

10     number P1017.

11        Q.   The month is illegible but it seems to say, on the B/C/S,

12     according to the translation, but it -- it refers to previous dispatches

13     on the 11th and the 14th of May, and I think, actually, it's probably the

14     1st of June, if it's the 1st of anything, because it says:

15             "All SJBs are obliged to submit to the centre detailed

16     information on the disarmament operations up to and to inclusive of the

17     15th of June."

18             And did you get this?

19        A.   I believe I did.

20        Q.   And did you submit the detailed information that was requested?

21        A.   I'm convinced we replied.

22        Q.   Now I want you to look -- thank you very much.  That's all I ask

23     about that document.

24             Can you look very briefly, please, because it's not a document

25     that you may have seen before you saw it at this court, at document

Page 7661

 1     number 1159.

 2             This is a handwritten document which comes from Bosanska

 3     Kostajnica branch police station.  Now, where is Bosanska Kostajnica?

 4        A.   West of Prijedor, from Novi Grad on to Bihac.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6        A.   On the Una river.

 7        Q.   All right and it came within the area of responsibility of the

 8     CSB Banja Luka, did it?

 9        A.   I think so.

10             MS. KORNER:  Oh, sorry.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this

12     document and this line of questioning.  Bosanska Kostajnica is not part

13     of the indictment against the accused here.  I do not see the relevance

14     of showing this document or any questions on this municipality.

15             MS. KORNER:  If Mr. Krgovic waits a moment -- I absolutely accept

16     it is not in the indictment and the reason I'm asking about is not to ask

17     about this, but as you will see, whether the same sort of complaint was

18     delivered to Mr. Tutus.

19             This is a complaint about the search of Muslim houses in the area

20     of Bosanska Kostajnica, and the complaint is the behaviour of the people

21     who did the search, seizure of weapons for which citizens possess valid

22     licence, et cetera, et cetera.  And the station commander who wrote this

23     said:

24             "This kind of behaviour damages the reputation of police officers

25     because it was also citizens of Serbian nationality who drew our

Page 7662

 1     attention to these omissions."

 2             What I want to ask you is whether you received, Mr. Tutus, or

 3     your commanders, complaints that were similar to this one about the

 4     behaviour of the police officers who were conducting these searches?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Why then do we need this document?

 6     Isn't it simpler to put the question?  Why refer to this document which

 7     has nothing to do with it.  The witness has not seen it before and it had

 8     nothing to do with his job.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner, why not just ask the question about

10     behaviour of -- of this nature?  Because introducing this document, which

11     you certainly aren't going to exhibit through this witness, isn't going

12     to advance the matter, is it?

13             MS. KORNER:  I'm not going to seek to exhibit it through the

14     witness.  I said I didn't think he saw it before.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So, as Mr. Krgovic said, why not just simply

16     go directly to the question.

17             MS. KORNER:  Well, I could go directly to the question, and I am

18     now going to ask the question, and I have asked the question.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Tutus, sorry about that intervention.

20             Could you tell us, did you have similar complaints to this?

21        A.   In the area of Banja Luka, as the document says in the first

22     sentence, a thorough search began of Muslim houses.  We in Banja Luka did

23     not have such an organised search of houses.  This was a regular activity

24     by regular police forces, and we did not get many complaints against the

25     organised seizure of weapons, but we had incidents with individual

Page 7663

 1     members of the Special Police detachment.

 2        Q.   What, who were carrying out these types of searches?

 3        A.   No.  In the area of Banja Luka, they did not conduct any searches

 4     in joint action with the police.  This job was done by the regular

 5     police.  And if anyone committed a violation, entered an apartment

 6     illegally or did something else illegally, the person was subject to

 7     prosecution.

 8        Q.   Sorry.  What I was asking was whether, as a result of the

 9     searches that your police officers were carrying out, did you receive any

10     complaints about arrogant behaviour by your police officers?

11        A.   I did not get any complaints about arrogant behaviour by our

12     police officers.

13        Q.   Did you get complaints from anybody that you were seizing weapons

14     for which the owners had a permit?

15        A.   I personally did not get any complaints.

16        Q.   All right.  Did your -- any of the officers under your command,

17     such as the commander of your police station, get any complaints?

18        A.   I don't know that.  At least I did not hear any complaints at the

19     meetings.

20        Q.   All right.  You're sure about this, are you, you never had any

21     complaints?

22        A.   I can't be sure.  There may have been complaints that I don't

23     remember, or maybe somebody else got complaints that they did not share

24     with me.

25        Q.   All right.  Because you looked at this document, didn't you, on

Page 7664

 1     Sunday?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Can we move then, please, to the document which is

 5     P173.  Actually, no, don't worry.  I'm sorry.  We can forget that because

 6     it's addressed to the chief and it's already an exhibit.

 7             I'm just going to check this one.

 8             Yes, actually, Your Honour, we can move on.  Sorry.  It was a

 9     document he was asked about in interview but I don't know that it takes

10     us much further.

11             Yes, number -- document, please, 131 -- sorry, P565.

12        Q.   Mr. Tutus, this is a document from -- from your SJB, and, in

13     fact, it's a response to a request from Mr. Zupljanin.  It's addressed to

14     the CSB or from the CSB.

15             "We hereby inform that you Banja Luka SJB has no information

16     regarding paramilitary organisations [sic] in the ... Banja Luka

17     municipality."

18             And it's signed:  "Section chief, Mr. Zoran Josic."  Was

19     Mr. Josic, I think when we looked at your diagram, was he the chief of

20     your crime section?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And would he have consulted with you before he sent a response?

23        A.   I think he would.

24        Q.   And do you consider that this was accurate in -- on the

25     18th of May?

Page 7665

 1        A.   I think it was accurate.

 2        Q.   So you'd had no incursions into the Banja Luka area of any

 3     paramilitary groups?

 4        A.   You could say that.

 5        Q.   Well, that's the next question.  What did you consider the SOS to

 6     be, then?

 7        A.   The SOS was already neutralised by the time this was written.

 8     And I saw here a piece of information shown to me by the Prosecution,

 9     where the SOS is qualified as a paramilitary formation.

10        Q.   That's the next document I'm going to show you.

11             So -- but from your point of view, and Mr. Josic's, you didn't

12     consider that the SOS was worth mentioning because, in your view, it was

13     neutralised.  Is that what you're saying?

14        A.   Precisely.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask that be admitted and marked.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated]

17             MS. KORNER:  Oh, it's already an exhibit, is it?  Oh, yes, it is.

18     I said it was.  All right.  Thank you.

19        Q.   All right.  Let's have a look, please, at the document that

20     you've just referred to, which I think is - just a moment - which you had

21     a chance to see.

22             MS. KORNER:  Yes, could we have P591.

23             I think we need to go to the last page in each.  It's the

24     sixth page in English.  I think it's the same in B/C/S.

25        Q.   It's -- the report was actually authored by Colonel Tolimir who

Page 7666

 1     was then the intelligence officer for the VRS who would -- then became

 2     General Tolimir.  Is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Who's on trial in another court at this moment; is that right?

 5     Or don't you know?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know whether he is on trial.  But now I know that

 7     he is in The Hague Tribunal's detention unit.

 8        Q.   And as you -- it's a report headed -- if we go back to the first

 9     page.  Dated much later, in fact, 28th of July.  On the paramilitary

10     formations in the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina, and it talks about a number of these paramilitary groups.

12     Some of which -- the names are familiar, Arkan's Men, Seselj's men,

13     Captain Dragan, the Wolves of Vucak.  Main characteristics very often

14     such units have in their ranks, pathological criminals.

15             And then if we go down the page a little bit.  Frequent links

16     between paramilitaries and corrupt political leaderships.

17             And then if we look, please, at the third page in English and the

18     third page in B/C/S.

19             Do you see -- I think it's the last paragraph in -- on the left

20     hand -- in the -- in B/C/S.  And it's the - one, two, three, four, five -

21     sixth paragraph.  The Serbian Radical Party of SRBH established a

22     War Staff in Banja Luka headed by a commander Nikodin Cavic, a Banja Luka

23     lawyer.  A great part of formation consists of volunteers from Serbia,

24     and so on and so forth.

25             Were you aware of this activity - and I agree this is now July

Page 7667

 1     - of the -- the War Staff of the Serbian Radical Party and Mr. Cavic?

 2        A.   I wasn't familiar with those activities, but did I know

 3     Nikodin Cavic.

 4        Q.   And did you know that he was a member of the Serb Radical Party?

 5        A.   There were rumours according to which he was a member of the

 6     Serb Radical Party.  But I personally didn't see a document showing that

 7     he had joined.

 8        Q.   You told us a few minutes ago about the information you had about

 9     people who were a threat, using -- paraphrasing what you actually said,

10     to the Serbian -- to the state.  Was this man considered, as a result of

11     information you had, to be such a threat?

12             MR. KRGOVIC:  I apologise, Ms. Korner, because there is some

13     mistake in transcript.  It is page 21, line 30, witness said -- line 14,

14     sorry.  He said:  "I wasn't familiar with those activities but I" -- but

15     witness says, "but I didn't see" --

16             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  "I didn't see the card that he was a member of

18     the -- Mr. Cavic."

19             MS. KORNER:  I don't think that's right [Microphone not

20     activated]

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll say it in the Serbian

22     language.

23             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.

24        Q.   Can I just ask you, Mr. Tutus, again, so we clear this up.

25             Did you know Mr. Cavic?

Page 7668

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Did you know that he was a member of the Serb Radical Party?

 3        A.   There were rumours, according to which he was a member, but I

 4     didn't know that, in the sense that I didn't see his membership card.  It

 5     wasn't apparent that he was involved in political activities.  He was

 6     someone to whom you wouldn't perhaps pay much attention ...

 7        Q.   So, although, apparently Colonel Tolimir got intelligence about

 8     this man, you didn't get any intelligence to suggest that he was a member

 9     of the Serb Radical Party establishing a War Staff?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   And so are you able to tell us whether you removed any weapons

12     from him?

13        A.   No, no, that's out of the question.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MS. KORNER:  Then can we go, please, to the fourth page in

16     English and the fifth page, I think it is, in B/C/S.  Yes.

17        Q.   You will see, as you said yourself, because you saw the document

18     on Sunday, that, on the -- oh, no, sorry, we're in the ... the wrong page

19     in English.

20             MS. KORNER:  Fourth page in English, please.  That's right.

21     Sorry, just right.  Yes, just the bottom.

22        Q.   Do you see the SOS is referred to there?

23             "Under the command of Nenad Stevandic, also president of the

24     Serbian Sokol Society ... private businessmen ... some senior SJB and

25     SNB officials in Banja Luka CSB have considerable influence over the SOS,

Page 7669

 1     but many infamous Banja Luka criminals have joined the SOS.  Part of the

 2     SOS formations ... was officially disbanded joined the Banja Luka CSB

 3     Special Police detachment but is not really under the control of the

 4     detachments command or the CSB," and so on.

 5             In July, Colonel Tolimir's information was that this group was

 6     classed as a paramilitary group; but you, in May, didn't think it worthy

 7     of mentioning?

 8        A.   I have no reason not to believe Colonel Tolimir.  This is

 9     military terminology.  He knows what paramilitary units and so on and so

10     forth are.  Perhaps we didn't recognise them as a paramilitary unit.  But

11     if that's what he said, well, there's no reason for me to doubt that.

12        Q.   Can you think who might be meant by the "senior SJB officials who

13     might have considerable -- who have considerable influence over the SOS"?

14        A.   You said "senior."

15             I don't see the term "senior officials" here.  I just see the

16     terms "some officials."

17        Q.   Sorry, which is the word -- wait a minute, just let me get

18     the ...

19             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, let's find this.

20        Q.   Which is the word you say is "some" and not "senior"?

21        A.   It's the third one.  The third word in this second paragraph on

22     this page.  The Serbian Defence Forces from Banja Luka under the command

23     of Stevandic and so on and so forth.  That's where it is.  It's a little

24     lower down.  That's the one.

25        Q.   Can you read out, please, so that I can -- we can get a

Page 7670

 1     translation through the earphones.  Could you read out the word -- from

 2     the word -- just a moment.  The sentence which begins:  "Private

 3     businessmen ..."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             "Significant influence on the SOS is exercised by private

 6     businessmen and some officials from the SJB and SNB in the Banja Luka

 7     CSB."

 8        Q.   So the word "senior" does not appear there anywhere.  Is that

 9     what you're saying?

10        A.   That's correct.  I can't see that word.

11        Q.   So it just says "some SJB"?

12        A.   "Some."

13             That's right.  That's correct.

14        Q.   Well, is that --

15             MS. KORNER:  I saw Mr. Cvijetic nodding.  But is -- I would like

16     confirmation before I ask for a new translation that the word "senior"

17     doesn't appear.

18             It does appear.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes that the word "senior"

20     does not appear.  Only the word "some."

21             MS. KORNER:

22        Q.   I apologise for that.  You're absolutely right to correct that,

23     but it doesn't actually affect the question except for the "senior."

24             Any idea who the "some SJB and SNB" -- let's leave SNB out of it.

25     "Some SJB ... officials ... who have an influence -- considerable

Page 7671

 1     influence over the SOS," might be?

 2        A.   I really don't know.

 3        Q.   Well, that's all I want to ask about this document.  Thank you.

 4             MS. KORNER:  I'd like to have a look, please, at the document

 5     which is P367.  So we're going back in time to May.

 6        Q.   It's dated in handwriting the 21st of May, but the actual date of

 7     the dispatch is the 20th of May.  And it's a record of the conclusions

 8     reached at the expanded meeting of the centre council held on the

 9     6th of May.  And it's addressed to the chief -- addressed to all SJBs in

10     the region except Jajce.  And again if we look at the last page in the

11     English and the last page in the B/C/S, we'll see that it bears the name

12     of Stojan Zupljanin.

13             Now you told us yesterday, you weren't a member of the collegium,

14     but were you -- would you have attended -- and, indeed, we can see if we

15     look at the attendees -- sorry, paragraph 1, back to the first page.  In

16     the fifth line of the first paragraph, the meeting was attended by the

17     chiefs of the public security stations in Banja Luka, et cetera,

18     et cetera.

19             So you were at this meeting, is that right, because it was an

20     expanded meeting, if you like?

21        A.   That's correct.  I wasn't at the collegium, but I was in

22     attendance at the professional council.

23        Q.   Now, before we look at the parts that I want to ask you about, in

24     fact, for the English, and I think you corrected this when you were asked

25     about this in interview.  If you go to Agenda 1 --

Page 7672

 1             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to the bottom and then can we pull up the

 2     page.

 3        Q.   -- it talks about the speakers who spoke after Mr. Zupljanin.

 4     Then we get Stevan Markovic and then Milorad -- it's put in the English

 5     as Djuricic but I think you corrected that.  It's Mr. Djuric, isn't it?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And we can see all the various people who spoke.  Now can we go,

 8     please, to the summing up done by Chief Stojan Zupljanin, which is on the

 9     second page in the English, and the proposal of the conclusions, and it's

10     the second page in B/C/S as well.

11             Paragraph 2:

12             "Starting today until further notice, all chiefs of public

13     security stations must wear a uniform.  The uniform must be either a new

14     blue camouflage uniform or the usual police uniform."

15             It says "starting today."

16             Was it not usual for the chiefs of police to wear a uniform?  The

17     chief of public security stations, rather.

18        A.   Some wore uniforms; others didn't.  There were no strict rules.

19        Q.   And do you know why Mr. Zupljanin was saying, from now on,

20     everybody had to wear a uniform?

21        A.   Probably because some of them weren't wearing uniforms, and he

22     wanted them all to be in uniform.  That's the only way I could interpret

23     this.

24        Q.   Then item 4:

25             "All my orders conveyed orally, as well as those I may forward by

Page 7673

 1     dispatch, must be carried out: They are your law."

 2             Well, first of all, as far as the law was concerned, was that

 3     right, that Mr. Zupljanin's orders, conveyed orally or in writing, had to

 4     be carried out?

 5        A.   Well, they had to be carried out.  The ones that were in

 6     accordance with the law.  And in my understanding, his orders wouldn't

 7     contravene the law.  Those orders had to be carried out.  Orders that

 8     were not in accordance were -- with the law didn't have to be carried

 9     out.

10        Q.   It's a fairly forceful statement.  You knew Mr. Zupljanin pretty

11     well.  Was that his normal way of speaking?

12        A.   Well, all I can conclude, on the basis of -- I can only draw

13     conclusions and I can only say what my own opinion is on the basis of

14     this item.  Doesn't mean I'm correct.

15        Q.   No, no.  I'm asking you, from your knowledge of Mr. Zupljanin,

16     who you have known for -- since effectively police school, over 15 years

17     by then, was that his normal way of delivering instructions?

18        A.   Well, I believe that they're his words, addressed to those who

19     acted in an arrogant way in the field.  He wanted them to act in a more

20     serious way.  I think that was the objective, because there were quieter

21     people from the SJB who weren't familiar with the rules.  They had been

22     normal citizens before.  There could have been problems.  So I assume

23     that this was also the reason for which such strict language was used.

24        Q.   During remember being asked the very self-same question when you

25     were interviewed by Mr. Sebire?

Page 7674

 1        A.   I can't remember what I answered on that occasion.  That was a

 2     long time ago.

 3        Q.   Would it help you to refresh your memory if you had a look at

 4     what you said then?

 5        A.   If you think it is essential, that's not a problem.

 6        Q.   I'll ask the question again and then, if necessary, we'll remind

 7     you.

 8             From your working with Mr. Zupljanin for many years now, can you

 9     tell us if he was in the habit of delivering orders in a forceful manner?

10        A.   In my opinion, he's not a person who uses tough language.  He

11     might address, use serious language but in a calm manner.  And I wouldn't

12     say that he said exactly what is stated here.

13        Q.   Well, let's see if we can refresh your memory from what you said

14     to Mr. Sebire in interview.

15             JUDGE HALL:  To what end, Ms. Korner?  I would have thought that

16     the last question you put to him is what the relevant question is for

17     these purposes.  His assessment, his appreciation, his recollection of

18     the way that Mr. Zupljanin gave orders or gave instructions.  What he

19     would have said on a previous occasion, I'm not sure how it assists.

20             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I think it does assist because it

21     was said during the course of this interview it's a very clear statement

22     and it is not exactly what he said here.  I'm simply asking him to

23     refresh his memory and see if he still agrees with that statement.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I'm not sure why you're setting up a contradiction

25     of your own witness.  But go ahead.

Page 7675

 1             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  Could we have up, please, on the

 2     screen --

 3        Q.   You, in fact, I think, have a got a copy of your own in your own

 4     language but you probably haven't got it with you.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Can we have page 136 of 65 ter 9026.

 6             No, page 136, please.  I have no idea where it is in the B/C/S

 7     version, I'm afraid, because I didn't appreciate that we had a copy of

 8     it.

 9        Q.   But in English, the -- Mr. Sebire said to you, on this very

10     point:

11             "It's quite a strong statement that he made, in the sense that

12     whatever he orders or says has to be the law."

13             And your response was:

14             "Well, he had a habit of speaking in that way."

15             Now, is that right?

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  So, this was leading question and the answer was

17     like that.  In direct examination the witness said what he said.  What's

18     the point of that?

19             MS. KORNER:  I'm asking him, Mr. Krgovic, whether, having

20     refreshed his memory of what he said to Mr. Sebire in 2004, he sticks to

21     this statement that Mr. Zupljanin had a habit of speaking in this way.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  It's cross-examination.  It's not

23     examination-in-chief.  That's my point.

24             MS. KORNER:  I'm just asking.

25             JUDGE HALL:  That's exactly the flag that I raised earlier.  But

Page 7676

 1     please proceed, Ms. Korner.  I expect I understand why she is taking this

 2     route.

 3             MS. KORNER:

 4        Q.   All right.  Mr. Tutus, we've spent a long time on this, and I'd

 5     like to move on.

 6             First of all -- not, first of all, do you agree that that's what

 7     you told Mr. Sebire in 2004?

 8        A.   Well, that's roughly what I said in the courtroom just a minute

 9     ago.

10        Q.   All right.  Anyhow, so that's right, is it?  This is how he spoke

11     or he had a habit of speaking in this way.  Yes or no, Mr. Tutus?

12        A.   Well, I have answered that question.  There's nothing in

13     particular I would like to add.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MS. KORNER:  Let's go back, then, please, to the document --

16             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, it's 10.20.  It is past the time that we

17     usually take a break, if --

18             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Certainly.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

22             MS. KORNER:  Could we go back to the document that we were

23     looking at before, please, which is -- whatever it was.  It was document

24     P367.

25             Can we go to the second page, please, in B/C/S, and the second

Page 7677

 1     page in English.

 2        Q.   Paragraph 5 says -- after the one we were talking about, "my

 3     orders."

 4             "We have to identify in time those among us who are involved in

 5     criminal activities and we must take rigorous steps against them

 6     (immediately commence disciplinary proceedings)."

 7             When Mr. Zupljanin was saying "those among us," did you

 8     understand him to be talking about police officers?

 9        A.   I understand it as referring to all employees of the

10     Security Services Centre, in the broader sense.

11        Q.   Paragraph 12 of the proposed conclusions, which you will find on

12     the third page in English, and it's the bottom of that page in B/C/S.

13             It says:

14             "Chiefs of departments in the CSB headquarters and chiefs of

15     public security stations will submit monthly performance reports and

16     plans for the current month to me by the fifth of each month.  I will

17     deduct 10 per cent of the chief's income for every failure to submit a

18     report on time."

19             First, had that happened before, the threat of deduction of

20     income, if reports weren't delivered on time?

21        A.   Not that I know.

22        Q.   Are you aware of anybody who had 10 per cent of their income

23     deducted for failure?

24        A.   It was never done to me.  I don't know about others.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 7678

 1             MS. KORNER:  Can we then go to number 23 of the conclusions,

 2     which is on the fourth page in English, and it's the fourth page in B/C/S

 3     as well.

 4        Q.   "In all our activities, we are obliged to observe all measures

 5     and apply all procedures ordered by the Crisis Staff of the autonomous

 6     region."

 7             So, Mr. Tutus, Mr. Zupljanin made it clear to all of you at the

 8     meeting that -- that the Crisis Staff of the region had authority; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   In point 23, it says exactly as you read.

11        Q.   And then it talks about the disarmament dead-line and saying that

12     no action should be taken until the Crisis Staff makes the relevant

13     decisions.

14             And, finally, just to note at the end of this document,

15     Agenda item 3, which we will see on the fifth page in English and the

16     same in B/C/S.  This is the reference to Mr. Zupljanin establishing a

17     special counter-sabotage and counter-terrorist police unit of about 150,

18     and it's to be made up of active reserve policemen and persons who fought

19     on the Western Slavonia battle-fronts.  And that's a reference obviously

20     to the parade we watched at the end of yesterday.

21             All right.  Thank you.  Can we -- I'm sorry, we have to go back

22     in time a little.  I'm sorry, I missed out two documents by mistake

23     yesterday, three ...

24             MS. KORNER:  Could we look, please, at document -- it is already

25     an exhibit, P355.

Page 7679

 1        Q.   Because it's the meeting a month before, roughly, because that

 2     meeting we looked at was 6th of May.  This meeting took place -- not

 3     roughly, exactly on the 6th of April.  Conclusions, when we enlarge,

 4     centre -- it's called "Centre Council Session," held on the 6th of April,

 5     and it's sent to you and all the chiefs of the SJBs.

 6             So were you -- do we take it you were present at this meeting as

 7     well?

 8        A.   I suppose so.

 9        Q.   Well, was it -- was it the habit that once a month there would be

10     a meeting of the expanded, as it were, collegium, or the centre council?

11        A.   Yes, there were meetings.  We met often.  I can't say now exactly

12     whether it was twice a month or once a month.  But we met as required, as

13     the chief of the centre convened.

14        Q.   All right.  I just want to ask you about one matter concerned in

15     this.

16             MS. KORNER:  Can we look at the second page in English and the

17     second page in B/C/S.

18        Q.   Mr. Zupljanin saying that -- he established the following

19     conclusion:

20             "The Banja Luka CSB shall be organised in accordance with the

21     constitution and shall consist of all public security stations whose

22     municipal assemblies declare themselves in favour of joining the

23     Autonomous Region of Krajina.  Thus, in addition to the existing ones,

24     the centre shall also be joined by the following public security

25     stations ..."

Page 7680

 1             MS. KORNER:  And if we go, please, in English to the next page.

 2        Q.   We see amongst those that were coming under the CSB, included

 3     what's described as the Serb Municipality of Prijedor, and the Serb

 4     Municipality of Sanski Most.

 5             Now, you came from Sanski Most.  Were you still living there at

 6     the time, at this period, in 1992?

 7        A.   No, I lived in Banja Luka.

 8        Q.   Were you aware before this meeting that there were -- there was a

 9     Serb Municipality of Sanski Most?

10        A.   The Serb Municipality Sanski Most was established in Ostra Luka

11     after the armed conflict in Sanski Most.  That's what I know.  But I

12     cannot tell you the exact date.

13        Q.   But this is the 11th of -- well, I'm sorry, the meeting was the

14     6th of April, 1992.  By the 6th of April, 1992, there had been no armed

15     conflict, had there, in Sanski Most?

16        A.   I don't know that.  I cannot be sure about the date.

17        Q.   All right.  At this -- all I'm asking is, at this meeting on the

18     6th of April, before this was announced, had you been aware that, in

19     particular, there was now something called the Serb Municipality of

20     Sanski Most?

21        A.   That existed; I'm aware of that.  And the seat, the base was in

22     Ostra Luka.  And to this day, there is a Serb Municipality Sanski Most

23     there.

24        Q.   There is, is there?  All right.

25             MS. KORNER:  Let's leave that, please, and then just look briefly

Page 7681

 1     at document P354, which was MFI'd.

 2        Q.   Which is the same day as the other document was sent out.  Again,

 3     it's addressed to, apart from the republic MUP, the chiefs of the SJBs.

 4     And it's obviously referring to criticism of the formation of the Serbian

 5     MUP.  But then it says this in the second paragraph:

 6             "All employees found that work in the organs of the

 7     Serb Republic ... are given an opportunity to express their decision

 8     regarding the maintenance of employment ... with no pressure by the

 9     15th of April."  And:

10             "They are to sign a formal statement in accordance with the

11     Law on Internal Affairs of the Serb Republic ... this should be no

12     different from the statement of the ex-minister of internal affairs and

13     should have nothing to do with the so-called statement of loyalty, as it

14     was noted in the dispatch ..."

15             Do you remember receiving this document?

16        A.   I probably received it.

17        Q.   And we discussed yesterday the question of the statement of

18     loyalty or whatever it was.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, all I'm asking now is that it can be

20     formally exhibited.  It was MFI'd before.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             MS. KORNER:  Sorry -- Your Honours, I'm so sorry.  On my

23     spreadsheet, it appeared as MFI'd, but I'm told that it was already put

24     in.

25             All right.  I'm sorry we wasted time on that.

Page 7682

 1             Can we now move back to the period of time we were looking at.

 2     Well, we could if I was able to find my list.

 3             Yes.

 4             Your Honours, I'm so sorry for this delay but I'm aware that I'm

 5     running shortly out of time, and I'm trying to cut out documents which

 6     are already exhibits.  So that's why I ...

 7             Yes.  Could we look, please ... no, don't need that one either.

 8             Yes.  Document ... 2505.

 9        Q.   Now, this is one of many documents, I think, Mr. Tutus, that you

10     actually gave to the investigator during the course of your interview.

11     Do you remember that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And it was a whole series of documents which we will look at, I

14     hope fairly quickly, concerning reports made by you about the behaviour

15     of the Special Police; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   This one dated the 4th of June of 1992 concerning a -- an

18     altercation between the Banja Luka Budzak police station -- police

19     officers and members of the Special Police at some catering facilities in

20     Banja Luka; is that right?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   And if we look, please, at the second page in English, and it's

23     still on the first page in B/C/S.  It's -- under 2 in B/C/S, the second

24     paragraph:

25             "The behaviour of the special detachment members is contrary to

Page 7683

 1     the prescribed norms and regulations for employees of internal affairs

 2     organs, which is visible in their arrogant and violent behaviour, their

 3     evasion of legal provisions of the Banja Luka" -- I think that should be

 4     SJB, "police officers, and even in the commission of criminal acts which

 5     are being officially prosecuted."

 6             Then you go on to say -- in the next page you list a number of

 7     incidents.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Next page in English, same page in B/C/S, I think.

 9     The next page -- sorry, the next page in B/C/S.

10        Q.   The dispatches which you had already reported in May.  Problems

11     at the Centar police station, Goran Popovic, and an apartment being

12     broken into.  And then a pistol being taken from somebody's apartment in

13     Banja Luka.

14             And you signed this report, didn't you.

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   So there had been an earlier report, on the 22nd of May, about

17     the behaviour of one of the special brigades; is that right -- or Special

18     Police?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Now let's go --

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be marked, please -- admitted

22     and marked, and we will go through the rest of them fairly quickly.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

24             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1081, Your Honour.

Page 7684

 1             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we go now, please, to 2506, please.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, I didn't catch from the document to

 3     whom these reports are sent.  I assume it's to the CSB but I didn't see

 4     it.

 5             Can you confirm?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I think that these were sent --

 7        Q.   Mr. Tutus, perhaps you can confirm:  This was being sent to the

 8     CSB, is that right?

 9        A.   I would like to see the first page to see whom it was addressed.

10        Q.   Well, it was, I can assure you, but let's go back.

11             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, we'll have to have the -- not this document,

12     the one before that.  Whatever the number was, please, can we have that

13     back.  2505.  Very quickly, front page, please.

14        Q.   There we can see --  needn't bother with anything else.  CSB

15     Banja Luka, right?  Report of the 4th of June?

16        A.   It was submitted to the Ministry of the Interior and their

17     Security Services Centre.

18        Q.   Right.  Sorry, you're absolute right.

19             MS. KORNER:  And thank you, Your Honour.  Just goes to show how

20     you shouldn't go through them too quickly.

21        Q.   It's also addressed to the Minister of the Interior -- the

22     Ministry of the Interior and the CSB.

23             MS. KORNER:  And now can we go back, please -- or forward to the

24     document that I asked to be put up on the screen?

25        Q.   This is an Official Note --

Page 7685

 1             MS. KORNER:  And I think we need to go -- well, we can see it in

 2     B/C/S, but it's the second page in English.

 3        Q.   -- compiled by two gentlemen called Tanasic and Ponorac.  Were

 4     they members of your SJB?

 5        A.   I think they were members of the traffic police station.

 6        Q.   All right.  And --

 7        A.   I'm not sure.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9        A.   I think they were.

10        Q.   This is one of the documents you provided, wasn't it, to

11     Mr. Sebire during your interview?

12        A.   I don't remember that.

13        Q.   Well, all right.  Is this a document that -- that -- that you had

14     in your possession?

15        A.   Here at the Office of the Prosecutor.

16        Q.   Well, no, Mr. Tutus.

17        A.   That's when I saw it.

18        Q.   No, you didn't.  Well, I --

19        A.   Well, I can't remember everything.

20        Q.   All right.  I mean, I can take you to the part of the interview

21     where you provided Mr. Sebire with this.

22             Do you want me to do that?

23        A.   No need.  When I was interviewed in Banja Luka as a suspect, a

24     suspected member of a joint criminal enterprise, I used in that interview

25     some material that I had in my possession.  And then a representative of

Page 7686

 1     the OTP, a gentleman and a lady were there, asked me to hand them over.

 2     If that's what I said during the interview, then I agree.  But I'm not

 3     sure.  I don't remember giving this to the Prosecution.

 4        Q.   All right.  Because this is a report from, you say, two people

 5     who you think were members of the traffic division who had stopped a

 6     vehicle in which a driver was carrying a licence in the name of Imamovic.

 7     He told these officers that he was a member of the special forces,

 8     Ministry of the Interior special forces, on the way back from the front.

 9     And according to these officers, when they were checking the cards --

10     sorry.

11             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back to the first page in English, please.

12        Q.   This man said:

13             "Call Stojan Zupljanin or Kesic for me so that I can talk to

14     them.  Who are you to stop me?"

15             Can you just remind the Court of whom Kesic was?

16        A.   I don't know which Kesic he was referring to.  But there was

17     Nedeljko Kesic, chief of the national security service.

18        Q.   All right.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

20     please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MS. KORNER:  And the 65 ter of this one, Your Honours, is 2506.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P10182 [sic], Your Honour.

Page 7687

 1             MS. KORNER:  Next document, please, 2507.

 2        Q.   This is another Official Note compiled by some people called

 3     Gotovac and Skrbo.

 4             Again, do you know who they were?

 5        A.   I know who Gotovac was, but I can't remember who Skrbo was.

 6        Q.   And, again, this is another document you provided to the OTP.

 7     It's a complaint of the 20th of June about someone wearing the Special

 8     Police unit uniform, claiming to be a member.  Two other people who were

 9     in the same uniform stealing gasoline.

10             Is that right?

11        A.   That's what it says in the note.

12        Q.   When you got these Official Notes from members of your station,

13     would these be turned into reports and sent to the CSB or anywhere else?

14        A.   Such police information was forwarded to the crime police that

15     Zoran Josic was in charge of.  Several pieces of such information are

16     used to form a collective report.  The notes were sent to the CSB and

17     after a certain period of time, you'd have a special note that would be

18     compiled.  The chief of the centre would ask for such reports, and, in

19     accordance with the law, we took appropriate measures that were

20     prescribed.

21        Q.   This is the 20th of June, and I don't think there's any note

22     about it, for reasons that will become apparent.  But on the

23     16th of June, was there an incident which took place at the Mejdan police

24     station involving members of either the SOS or the Special Police?

25        A.   I haven't got a document on the screen, but there was an incident

Page 7688

 1     at the Mejdan station.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Now, I don't think you gave us a document about this, but

 3     can I just ask you briefly to tell the Court what happened at Mejdan

 4     police station.

 5        A.   Well, some members of the SOS group arrived there.  They entered

 6     the station, the police station.  There was some sort of discussion

 7     between them and the duty officer in the station.  Then the station

 8     commander got involved, Petar Tanazevic was his name, and an attempt was

 9     made to calm down the situation.  One of the men involved was a drug

10     addict in Banja Luka.  He said he would throw a grenade in the police

11     station.  He had some sort of explosive device.  Weapons were then used

12     and someone killed.  If that's what have you in mind.

13        Q.   Yeah.  Were the -- the people killed, did they include somebody

14     called Nenad Kakjut, K-a-k-j-u-t [sic]?

15        A.   I think the surname is Kajkut, but I can't remember the names of

16     those killed.  I can remember one of the person, Vedran Mandic, but as

17     for the other names, no, I can't remember them.

18        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

19             MS. KORNER:  Can I move, please, next in this series of documents

20     to -- did I ask for the last one to be -- the one of the 20th of June.

21             Can I have that admitted and marked, please.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 2507 becomes Exhibit P1083.

24             And may I just correct for the record the previous one,

25     65 ter 2506 become Exhibit P1082 and not P10182, as it was said before by

Page 7689

 1     mistake.  Thank you.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Could we now have 2508 on the screen.

 3        Q.   It's actually dated -- it's another Official Note which has at

 4     the top -- so this is presumed to be it was delivered one to the crime

 5     department, one to the CSB chief, and I can't read the third person to

 6     whom this was meant to go.

 7             Official Note, again 20th of June, about the Special Police

 8     detachment.

 9        A.   Here.

10        Q.   Yes.  And it's -- this is an incident that took place at the

11     Centar police station, not unlike what you just described that happened

12     at Mejdan.  Some officers were checking a vehicle.  They found someone

13     from the intervention group.

14             MS. KORNER:  And then if we go, please, in the next page in

15     English.  It's the same page at the bottom in B/C/S.

16        Q.   He'd been taken to the police station, Mr. Racic, and then at

17     quarter to midnight, he came back with two other men, asked why members

18     of the special unit were taken to the centre, takes out a pistol - this

19     is Mr. Racic - saying that he would kill you -- "would kill us."  This is

20     the reporting, and so on and so forth.

21             And it's signed - if we go to the last page in English and the

22     second page in B/C/S - by Mr. Lipovac.

23             Were you made aware of this incident?

24        A.   Yes, I signed the note, initialed it and to whom it should be

25     forwarded, to the CSB, to the crime police and to the archives.  You

Page 7690

 1     weren't able to read that at the bottom.  It says "Here," that means the

 2     archives.  So that was a note that was sent to the centre because their

 3     people were involved, and according to the rules on responsibility, they

 4     had to receive this.  And it was sent to the crime service so that they

 5     could take the necessary legal measures.  And then there was a special

 6     report that was compiled on the basis of several notes of this kind.

 7        Q.   Now this was -- as with the Mejdan incident, although people had

 8     died there, this was a major incident, was it, in -- as far as the

 9     Special Police were concerned, threatening other police officers?

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to this

11     leading question.  First, when the witness answered the question about

12     the previous incident and about who was killed, he didn't mention Special

13     Police units.  He mentioned SOS members.  Those are different things, and

14     my learned friend is trying to confuse these two separate things.

15             So if a question is being put and if my colleague wants to place

16     it into context, she should correctly refer to the transcript.  The

17     witness mentioned to SOS members and not to Special Police members.

18             MS. KORNER:  I'm not -- sorry.  I was conflating not the two

19     groups but the nature of the incident and that, I hope, was fairly clear.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, Ms. Korner, Mr. Krgovic's question is

21     relevant and I would like to put it to the witness.

22             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because all the incidents that you have described

24     in the last four documents that you have been pulling up on the screen

25     relate to irregular activities carried out by members of the Special

Page 7691

 1     Police, and so that begs the question whether the perpetrators of these

 2     irregularities were former SOS members; namely, from the group that, we

 3     heard earlier this morning, had been transferred into a Special Police

 4     unit.

 5             Can you confirm whether the members of the SOS continued to

 6     misbehave even after their inclusion into the Special Police?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The event I described at the Mejdan

 8     police station in which men were killed, well, the people killed were SOS

 9     members, and the investigative judge completed this affair.  But as for

10     the other incidents before me, the note shows that these incidents

11     concern individual members of the Special Police.  It says allegedly

12     members.  So certain things have to be checked, naturally.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So do I understand you correctly that you are

14     unable to say whether these irregularities were committed by SOS members?

15     You simply don't know.  Is that your answer?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is as I stated in the

17     note.  If someone says that a member of a special detachment is involved,

18     it means that the centre is responsible for this and we have to forward

19     the relevant material to that centre.  That when reports are sent to the

20     crime police, then the crime police has to check the situation in the

21     field and to take legal measures.  On the basis of the note, I can't

22     claim that it was a SOS member or member of the Special Police or someone

23     who had assumed a false identity.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

25             Back to you, Ms. Korner.

Page 7692

 1             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  Well, Your Honours, I want to move on

 2     fairly quickly, so may I simply ask that this is admitted and marked.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1084, Your Honour.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Very quickly, please, document 20 -- sorry, 2509.

 6        Q.   As a result of the last-described incident, if we look at the

 7     last page, please, this document was sent to you, the CSB chief, and

 8     various -- the public security chief, by the shift and guard duty leaders

 9     and traffic safety police.  And it was about how to increase security, as

10     a result of this Racic incident.  Is that right?

11             MS. KORNER:  If we go back to the first page.

12        Q.   Is that right, Mr. Tutus?

13        A.   Do you mean whether the contents are correct?

14        Q.   No.  Whether -- this was a report that was prepared, was it at

15     your request or anybody else's, on how security had to be increased in

16     the building which housed both the CSB and SJB to prevent a further

17     incident?

18        A.   The security of the CSB and SJB building was the responsibility

19     of the CSB.  There was a platoon for the security of the individuals and

20     facilities and they were responsible to provide such security.  The note

21     is the result of the work of several authorised policemen, and they have

22     indicated certain problems and forwarded this to the chief of the police

23     station and of the centre.

24        Q.   Okay.  And it's another one of the documents that you handed

25     over, isn't it, to the OTP?

Page 7693

 1        A.   I can't remember that.

 2        Q.   All right.  It doesn't make any difference.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1085, Your Honour.

 7             MS. KORNER:  All right.

 8        Q.   Can we look at another document that you gave to Sebire.

 9             MS. KORNER:  2510, please.

10        Q.   This is the 21st of June, so the day after the incident at the

11     police station.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What is it?

13             MS. KORNER:  It's Official Note, Your Honour, sorry.  Can you see

14     it at the top?

15        Q.   Police -- signed by police officers Copic and Stojinic.

16             Did you know them, Mr. Tutus?

17        A.   I didn't.  But I'm familiar with this note.  It's one of a series

18     of notes that policemen in the field compiled.

19        Q.   All right.  And, again, it's somebody from the -- somebody who

20     says that he's member of the Special Police and who wanted his wife

21     arrested.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can we have that, please, admitted and

23     marked.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1086, Your Honour.

Page 7694

 1             MS. KORNER:  2511, please.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, are you having a whole batch of

 3     Official Notes that you wish to have entered into exhibits or admitted

 4     into evidence that all relate to the same pattern of misconduct by

 5     alleged members of the Special Police unit?

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Isn't there a faster way or a smarter way in

 8     which we can do this.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, this is the last one, in fact,

10     so -- but I'm quite happy just to put it in because I want to come --

11     there's a full report about -- that relates to all of this, which I'm

12     coming to next.

13             Your Honours, if I can just ask that the next document, which is

14     yet another report of an incident like this, be admitted and marked.

15     Yes.  The 65 ter number is 2511.  Can that just be made an exhibit,

16     please.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so admitted and marked.

18             MS. KORNER:  All right.  And can we now come, please, to -- 2512,

19     please.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  So 65 ter 2510 becomes Exhibit P1086; and

21     65 ter 2511 becomes Exhibit P1087, Your Honour.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can we have now 2512.

23        Q.   If we look at the second page, in English and B/C/S, your report,

24     is that right, Mr. Tutus, to Mr. Zupljanin?

25             MS. KORNER:  If we go back to the front page.

Page 7695

 1        A.   Correct.  Correct, correct.

 2        Q.   And, in fact, you list all the incidents where we've just looked

 3     at them, the Official Notes, and also some others, it looks like.  And

 4     you say at the beginning of the first paragraph:

 5             "We have already informed you" -- well, let's go back a bit.

 6             "Recently, in May and June 1992, the Banja Luka SJB registered

 7     cases of negative behaviour by Banja Luka CSB Special Police detachment

 8     members, which in certain cases contain elements of offences or crimes.

 9     We have already informed you of this on several occasions in dispatches

10     and memos."

11             Is that right?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   And it looks like nothing had happened, so you wrote this on the

14     24th of June.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honours, obviously it is misleading.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean?

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  This is not -- this happens because -- this

18     doesn't -- what seems from the other documents that nothing was happened.

19     That was my objection.

20             MS. KORNER:  All right.  I'll rephrase the question.

21        Q.   Before you wrote this to Mr. Zupljanin, on the 24th of June, had

22     Mr. Zupljanin done anything in respect of any of the complaints that you

23     say you had made to him earlier?

24        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't responsible for verifying how my superior

25     performed his duties, what he did.

Page 7696

 1        Q.   But you -- sorry.  You say in that first paragraph:

 2             "We've already informed you on several occasion in dispatches and

 3     memos."

 4             What prompted you to write this letter, or put in this report,

 5     rather?

 6        A.   Well, on the last page of this note, the last paragraph, you can

 7     see that there you have the reason.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Let's look, please, at the second page again.

10        Q.   You say, as you say, in the last paragraph:

11             "In accordance with your dispatches," 29th of May, 8th of June,

12     "we sincerely hope will you undertake measures which fall under your

13     jurisdiction and that such unwelcome situations will disappear ..."

14             Now, for you to write that, had anything -- had any measures been

15     taken?

16        A.   In the first sentence I said, We are fully confident that you

17     want the service to function in accordance with the rules on the work of

18     organs of the interior and the rules on the conduct of your employees,

19     and so on and so forth.

20             What I wanted to say is, well, the note shows that the centre

21     made a request.  I referred to their dispatches.  They asked us to

22     forward this to them.  It's the result of the previous information and

23     we're providing them with a more overall report, and we expect them to

24     take certain measures for which they are responsible.

25        Q.   What would you have expected to have happened to the people who

Page 7697

 1     arrived -- who arrived in the Centar police station and threatened one of

 2     the officers with a gun?

 3        A.   Well, this should be checked.  There should be an internal

 4     investigation.  They should -- there should be criminal reports filed,

 5     and they should be removed, naturally, from the service.

 6        Q.   All right.  Had any of that happened?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   What --

 9        A.   I apologise.  With your leave, I know that the SJB, on a number

10     of occasions, filed criminal reports against former members of that

11     detachment.  We did this frequently and together with employees from the

12     CSB, from the crime police of the CSB.  There were such reports.

13        Q.   I want to know if those reports were taken anywhere, whether any

14     of these people, to your knowledge, either removed from the Special

15     Police or actually prosecuted.

16        A.   There were cases of criminal prosecution.  The SJB filed relevant

17     reports.  As whether for there were disciplinary measures, as for whether

18     people were removed from special detachments, I don't know about that.

19        Q.   Well, given that you were forwarding all these complaints to

20     Stojan Zupljanin, didn't you make any further inquiries to find out

21     whether anything was happening about whether these people, who, on the

22     face of it, were committing serious criminal offences?

23        A.   I personally didn't try to find this out.  I had other

24     responsibilities.  There were a lot of things happening.  The situation

25     was difficult.  But at a meeting of the expanded professional council, we

Page 7698

 1     had to discuss the behaviour of certain individuals, so the chief of the

 2     centre asked us to provide him with all the information that we had about

 3     such cases and then he would deal with it.

 4             I don't know what he did, but I assume that they continued to

 5     look into the matters.  I personally wasn't interested in the case, in

 6     the subject.

 7        Q.   Well, we'll look a little later at the report that you wrote in

 8     1993 about all this.

 9             MS. KORNER:  But can I ask, Your Honours, that that be marked and

10     admitted.  And can we move, please, to the next document.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

12             I don't know if -- you said you're returning to an aspect of

13     this, Ms. Korner, but could I ask the witness whether my understanding of

14     his answers to your last series of questions is that, notwithstanding

15     that the report to Mr. Zupljanin went out over his signature, that you

16     did not, yourself, satisfy yourself, as to the -- whether there was

17     substance to the complaint and whether you just acted as a conduit in

18     passing on the reports that had been passed up to you, on to

19     Mr. Zupljanin.

20             Is that the -- what I should make of your testimony?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Just -- this would be Exhibit P1 -- 65 ter 2512

24     becomes Exhibit P1088, Your Honour.

25             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we, then, move through, as quickly

Page 7699

 1     as we can, before we come to the next incident with the Special Police,

 2     through some of the documents in June, please.  Document 2375.

 3        Q.   Again, a document that you provided to the investigator.

 4             Now, this is a dispatch addressed to SJBs in the region.  It --

 5     it is signed, if we look at the third page in English, it's at the bottom

 6     of that page in B/C/S, signed by Stojan -- I say "signed."  It has got

 7     his signature.

 8             And if we go back, please, to the front page in English, on

 9     25th of June, Mr. Zupljanin is purporting to alter the jurisdictional

10     activities of the SJBs.  Is that right?  Because if you look at the

11     third paragraph in English:

12             "The criminal acts which used to fall under the jurisdiction of

13     the higher courts, murder, robbery, violent robbery, looting," et cetera,

14     "I hereby transfer to the jurisdiction of the public security stations."

15             Now can you explain to the Court the relevance and the importance

16     of this purported order.

17        A.   Well, what matters is that there was a change in the

18     Law on Regular Courts.  And since our rule on internal organisation

19     regulates the relationship between the CSBs and public security stations,

20     then this causes a change in jurisdiction.  And public security stations

21     are now instructed to take on cases that fell previously under the

22     jurisdiction of higher courts and that used to be dealt with by CSBs,

23     Security Services Centres.

24        Q.   Now, in your view, was that a change that could be made by

25     Mr. Zupljanin as chief of the CSB?

Page 7700

 1        A.   I believe that it could not.

 2        Q.   So what did you do?

 3        A.   I replied in writing to this dispatch.

 4        Q.   Saying what?

 5        A.   I invoked the relevant legislation.  And I said that with the

 6     numbers we have, we cannot take on such tasks.  I asked for an expansion

 7     of the staffing regulations and a proper procedure to be envisaged in the

 8     rules; but, of course, it did not relieve us of the responsibility to

 9     deal with all crimes.

10        Q.   Did you take the matter any further?  In other words, did you go

11     above the CSB for any kind of instructions?

12        A.   Well, I don't have before me the letter I wrote, but I believe I

13     also informed the Ministry of the Interior.

14        Q.   And do you remember -- do you mean the letter was addressed to

15     both the minister of the interior and the -- and the CSB?

16        A.   I think so.

17        Q.   Yes.  Well, I don't know that you provided us with the letter,

18     Mr. Tutus, that you wrote, but ...

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

20     please.  It is an exhibit, is it?  Oh, I'm sorry.  I'm told it's 10 --

21     could I have P1015 up on the screen after this has been admitted and

22     marked.  Oh, that is an exhibit.  Oh, I see.  I'm sorry, I'm told it is

23     already an exhibit.  I thought that the letter from ...

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 7701

 1             MS. KORNER:  All right.

 2        Q.   Mr. Tutus, if you'd -- you may have provided with us a letter,

 3     but if so, I'm afraid I don't seem to have it.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner, if we could just have the

 5     exhibit number of this -- the last document?

 6             MS. KORNER:  I thought about four people had said it was 1015.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 8        Q.   All right.  Yes, let's go back, again, to the -- the Special

 9     Police.

10             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up, please, document 2690.

11        Q.   This is a -- addressed to the chief of the Security Service

12     Centre, dated the 1st of July.  And is that signed by Mr. Josic, your

13     chief of crime police?

14        A.   It is sent to the chief of the Security Services Centre.

15        Q.   Yes.  By?

16        A.   It says:  "To the CSB, chief."

17        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry.  I'm just asking about Mr. Josic.  He was your

18     head of the crime section, chief of the crime section in the SJB.  Is

19     that right?

20        A.   Correct.

21             MS. KORNER:  And, again, I'm not going to trouble the Court to go

22     through this.  It's -- it's a long list of people and offences they have

23     committed, and it's much in the line of the last ones that we saw.

24             Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked, please.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

Page 7702

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1089, Your Honour.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Yes, and I'm sorry, we did have your letter.  I thought I had

 4     seen it somewhere.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up 2376.

 6        Q.   You did give it to us.

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8        Q.   Dated the 2nd of July.  So you sent it a few days after this

 9     order by Mr. Zupljanin.  Addressed, as you say, rightly to the chief of

10     the CSB and the Serbian Republic MUP, the Ministry of Interior.

11             And, in fact, you say you can't accept this, unless there's an

12     increase in your staffing.

13             MS. KORNER:  And, sorry, we need to go over to the third page in

14     B/C/S.  The last page.  There we are.

15             Your Honours, could that be admitted and marked, please.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1090, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE HALL:  If you're about to move on, Ms. Korner, it's time

19     for the break.

20             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, if I may, inasmuch as this witness's

24     testimony is not going to be completed today, there are two matters with

25     which we must deal which I would just as easily deal with now rather than

Page 7703

 1     at the end of today's sitting.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  The first is this.  Recently the Prosecution has

 4     brought to the attention of the Senior Legal Officer of the Chamber the

 5     fact that a document of the Prosecution Rule 65 ter exhibit list has not

 6     yet been disclosed to the Defence, and let me interrupt myself, I think

 7     we should be in private session.  Yes.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7704

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.  I'm sorry.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  The second, counsel would be aware and it is

10     something that I would have had to have notified the witness of before --

11     at today's -- when we would have adjourned for today, that for

12     administrative reasons we are unable to resume this trial tomorrow.  Upon

13     today's adjournment we would continue on Thursday.  And the Chamber would

14     invite -- I should probably say urge, request, whatever the appropriate

15     word is to underline the urgency of what I'm about to say - counsel for

16     the Prosecution and for the Defence to use tomorrow to begin preparing

17     for the information of the Chamber their estimates -- their respective

18     estimates as to the progress and conclusion of this trial.  Trial note --

19     that is both the Prosecution and the Defence.  And we would wish to have

20     in writing from the parties by close of business on Thursday.

21             Following that, the Chamber is seeking to arrange a 65 ter

22     meeting on Friday morning.  You would recall that we resume the trial on

23     Friday afternoon, in order to deal with the -- in order to -- to discuss

24     and finally resolve and communicate onward to the -- to those responsible

25     for the consequential administrative arrangements the future conduct of

Page 7705

 1     this trial.

 2             So your written submissions by close of business on Thursday; and

 3     we would seek to meet mid morning, or 11.00 on Friday morning.

 4             Thank you.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can I just mention that it is going to

 6     be very difficult for us to provide an accurate or even remotely accurate

 7     estimate because we don't have the estimates of cross-examination for all

 8     the remainder of the witnesses.  Now that means that -- that the Defence

 9     have got to consider how long that will take.  So it's not --

10     realistically, it's not going to be possible to give you a proper

11     estimate.

12             Our best guess is that -- I can say this straight away, that we

13     would finish -- we would hope to finish our case by the end of July or

14     maybe just trickle into the first week or so of the resumed hearings.

15             But without -- without estimates of cross-examination and we just

16     asked for them for the witnesses up until -- that we have listed, we

17     can't really say.

18             JUDGE HALL:  We're not unappreciative of the challenges that this

19     poses to both sides.  But counsel would appreciate that the Chamber

20     itself, as part of the -- as part of the whole business of what the

21     Tribunal is about, is required to communicate information onward.  And

22     working from the front to the back, as it were, we would need your input

23     in terms of being able ourselves to indicate to the Registry where we

24     expect we are going, and that why we are inviting you to use tomorrow

25     to -- in addition to whatever else you had arranged to do, to get an

Page 7706

 1     estimate - and we appreciate it is only an estimate - to us by Thursday.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It is perhaps helpful, Ms. Korner, to tell you

 4     that until now, end of February more or less, the Defence took, more or

 5     less, the 100 per cent of the chief time.  Little bit more, but not much.

 6     10 per cent more.  So that can be of -- can be useful in your estimates

 7     for the future.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Well, I mean, as I say, Your Honours, I mean,

 9     we can give you a rough estimate but no more than that.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

11             So you may continue, Ms. Korner.

12             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

13        Q.   I'm now going ask you, Mr. Tutus, to look at the lengthy report

14     that you prepared in 1993 about the Special Police.

15             MS. KORNER:  And that is exhibit -- it's already been made an

16     exhibit, 628.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, just one correction.  Former

18     members, in relation to this document.  It's about former members, not

19     members.

20             MS. KORNER:  In 1993, I agree, they weren't members because it

21     had been disbanded.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry, I don't -- I don't understand this.

23     Perhaps I -- but is it former members, or is it former S -- former CSB?

24     In the -- in the title of the document it is former CSB, so I can --

25     it -- it could be members at the very moment --

Page 7707

 1             MS. KORNER:  No, I don't want the Crisis Staff of Sanski Most,

 2     please.  I want Exhibit P628, which should be 65 ter 284.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  284, yes.  Information on registered illegal

 4     activities of the members.

 5             MS. KORNER:  What has come up on my screen is Sanski Most Crisis

 6     Staff.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm just taking the title of your document.  I'm

 8     not on the -- on the -- on the document on the screen.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I see, you're reading it.  Yes.

10             Your Honour is absolutely right.  It does say:  "Former

11     Banja Luka Security Services Centre" on the document.  You can now see it

12     on the screen.  So maybe I was too hasty to agree with Mr. Krgovic.  But

13     I agree with Mr. Krgovic that in 1993, when this report was written, in

14     May, theoretically, in any event, the Banja Luka Special Police force had

15     been abandoned -- had been - I have forgotten what the word is now -

16     abolished.

17        Q.   Right.  But it's -- this is -- Mr. Tutus, I know you're familiar

18     with this report.  This is addressed to Ministry of the Interior.  It's

19     dated the 5th of May, 1993.  Can I ask how you came to put this report

20     into the ministry?

21        A.   The chief of the public security sector, Tomislav Kovac, called

22     me and asked me to prepare a comprehensive report on the conduct of the

23     members of the former detachment of Special Police, because they were

24     also bound by this instruction on mutual information, and he thought he

25     should have a comprehensive report.  So I gave this assignment to the

Page 7708

 1     CID.  They prepared this comprehensive report, and I instructed them to

 2     provide one copy to the public security sector, to Tomo Kovac who asked

 3     for it, and one copy to the chief of the CSB.

 4        Q.   All right.  Now, in this information, you list all the -- the --

 5     the matters that we have looked at already in the reports, plus some

 6     other matters, and it's about two of those other matters that I wish to

 7     ask you.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can we turn to -- in English, to page 13; and in the

 9     B/C/S version, to page 7.

10        Q.   Now, the -- at the top of the page, it's quite difficult in

11     English to work out how to do this.  But it talks about the arrest of two

12     people called -- at the top of the English page, not in your page.  It's

13     above paragraph 23.  Dragojevic, Miroslav and Jokic, Ljubomir having been

14     arrested and the Banja Luka public security station filing criminal

15     charges.

16             And it goes on to say:

17             "Members of the special purpose police detachment of the

18     Banja Luka Security Services Centre carried out an attack on the prison

19     and have snatched the members of the same detachment from prison.  In

20     such a way, they have prevented the investigating judge from taking legal

21     action."

22             And then on paragraph 23, on the 21st of July, 1992, around

23     1400 hours, in the Tunjice settlement in Banja Luka, a group of some

24     30 members of the special purpose police detachment of the CSB Banja Luka

25     have committed the crime of enabling the escape of an imprisoned person.

Page 7709

 1     They drove in the armoured carrier and six cars and stopped in front of

 2     the Banja Luka county prison -- I think that should probably read

 3     municipal, but at the above-mentioned time by threatening with fire-arms.

 4     They disarmed five guards and released the two men who had been arrested

 5     on the 19th.

 6             Now, I'd like a little more detail from you, Mr. Tutus, about

 7     this incident, as you gave to the investigator in interview.

 8             How did you find out about the arrest of these men?

 9        A.   I was at home when I was informed by the chief of the CID of the

10     public security station Banja Luka, Zoran Josic, that the said persons

11     were brought in to the police station and that Zdravko Samardzija, one of

12     the commanding officers of the special detachment, was accompanying them,

13     and he asked these persons -- for these persons to be detained because

14     they were responsible for a number of serious crimes in the area in

15     Banja Luka.  I asked Chief Josic if there was enough evidence for that

16     and he said --

17        Q.   I'm so sorry to interrupt you.  But you said "he said."  Was that

18     Samardzija or Mr. -- your -- your CID man?  I've forgotten, I'm sorry.

19     Josic.  Thank you.

20             Was that Mr. Josic or Samardzija who asked for them to be

21     detained?

22        A.   Samardzija asked from Josic that these men be detained, and Josic

23     consulted me.

24        Q.   I see.  And what then happened?

25        A.   I asked Zoran Josic if there was enough evidence against them, if

Page 7710

 1     their detention would be lawful and if the CSB agreed with that.  He

 2     answered that the CSB was in agreement, and since these crimes had been

 3     committed by them in the area of the public security station of

 4     Banja Luka, there were sufficient grounds for them to be remanded in

 5     custody.  I agreed that this should be done.  Josic signed the

 6     appropriate decision, and these persons were remanded in custody.

 7        Q.   What was the next thing that happened?

 8        A.   The next day, two senior men from that detachment came to my

 9     home, asking me that these men be released, and they said their

10     colleagues were making this demand.  I refused.  He said that

11     Chief Zupljanin was in agreement.

12        Q.   All right.  Pause there.  Who were the two senior men who came --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

14     sentence, the very last one.

15             MS. KORNER:

16        Q.   Could you repeat your last sentence.

17        A.   Two members of that command of the Special Police detachment came

18     to my home, namely, Lukic, whose first name I don't remember, and I think

19     the other one was Dubocanin.  At least I think it was Dubocanin.  Lukic

20     was certainly the other one, the commander of the detachment.

21        Q.   Was that the Dubocanin who you mentioned as a member of the SOS,

22     in April, or was that his brother, Slobodan?

23        A.   Slobodan, the one who wore a hat.  But I'm not sure about that

24     second piece of information.

25        Q.   All right.  Anyhow, they said that Chief Zupljanin agreed.  What

Page 7711

 1     did you do?

 2        A.   I told them that I couldn't accept that and that I would not sign

 3     a decision on their release.  That the competent court should decide on

 4     that.

 5        Q.   So what happened then?

 6        A.   After that, sometime late that night, I got a call from

 7     Chief Zupljanin, making inquiries about the case, and he told me we

 8     should look into it and see if it were possible to release them from the

 9     prison, because there is unrest in that unit and there was a danger that

10     they might leave the separation line.  I don't know exactly where they

11     were deployed.  I said these men had been detained at their request in

12     the first place, and I would not agree to this manner of their release.

13     But since he was my superior officer, I told him that if he thinks still

14     that it is justified, he should give me a proper instruction in writing.

15        Q.   All right.  And did you get that instruction?

16        A.   Yes.  That night, a dispatch arrived from the operations duty

17     service, but I did not find in that dispatch any elements of an order.  I

18     found it to be a request for me to reconsider, because this unit could

19     abandon the line of separation.  However, I did not find any elements

20     justifying their release, so I did not do it.  And I also informed, in

21     parallel, the Ministry of the Interior.

22        Q.   About the arrest.  Or about the order from -- the request, as you

23     put it, from Zupljanin.

24        A.   I consulted the minister.  That was my legal obligation.  I

25     consulted him about Zupljanin's request to consider the possibility of

Page 7712

 1     releasing those men because the unit was threatening or -- or could

 2     possibly abandon the separation line.

 3        Q.   And did you speak to the minister himself?

 4        A.   At the time, communications were very bad.  There were breakdowns

 5     and there was one at the time.  I couldn't directly contact the minister

 6     so I went to the communications centre.  I asked the operator to connect

 7     me with the minister through other means of communication that

 8     Republika Srpska had at its disposal at the time, and he did put me

 9     through to General Tolimir, through some sort of military communications,

10     and from General Tolimir, I asked the connection to Minister Stanisic.  I

11     told him what it was all about, that I wanted his opinion, and he said he

12     would call me back.  And ten minutes later, or less, I got feedback from

13     General Tolimir that Minister Stanisic agrees with my decision that they

14     should stay in prison and that the court should decide upon any further

15     course of action.

16        Q.   We'll look at the document that you received from Zupljanin in a

17     moment but I want to stick with this document.

18             So you declined to release them.  What then happened?

19        A.   The next day, sometime around noon, one group of those men came

20     outside the district prison, and by using force they disarmed the guards

21     and released those two who were detained.

22        Q.   As described in your report.  Now, as I say, we'll look at a few

23     more documents about this incident in a moment.  But one of the incidents

24     you also mentioned in your report is a kidnapping and killing.

25             MS. KORNER:  If we go to page 16 in the English.  And, sorry, can

Page 7713

 1     we go, please, to page 9.  Sorry, yes, page 9.

 2        Q.   Now, I think there's an error in the translation, because the

 3     paragraph that talks about the kidnapping of Milan Kocic.  Anyhow.  Says

 4     in English, on the 1st of April, 1992, but I think we'll see that it's

 5     1993.

 6             Is that right?  If we look at the original.

 7             Is that right?

 8        A.   Well, I cannot determine the date now, but I remember the

 9     incident.

10        Q.   Well, it -- because it looks like that -- that the -- the arrest

11     and the reference number for the proceedings was the 9th of the 4th,

12     1993.  That's quite clear in the -- in the B/C/S -- in the Cyrillic.

13             But the people who had been arrested for that, Mr. Damjanovic,

14     Mr. Bosancic and Zeljko Kajkut, they were all people against whom you had

15     issued complaints about before, weren't they, or at least some of them,

16     in 1992?

17        A.   Well, if that's written in the reports that we had discussed

18     before, I believe it must be so, but I can't remember who did what

19     individually.

20        Q.   But it looks as though - and tell us, please, Mr. Tutus - whether

21     or not the unit had been disbanded, the members of that unit were still

22     going on committing criminal offences throughout 1992 and into 1993.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe this is a

24     leading question.

25             It's about members of a unit, in the question of the Prosecutor,

Page 7714

 1     where as the document does not mention any members of any unit.

 2             Second, this is 1993.  Why would it be relevant?  As far as can I

 3     see, this is about people of the same ethnicity.  Why are we now talking

 4     about events from 1993 when it's outside of the period of the indictment?

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, because the point that we're seeking to

 6     make is that despite the series of complaints and criminal reports that

 7     were put in, these men were still at liberty.  That's the point I'm

 8     making.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] But where is the evidence of that?

10     If the Prosecution says that criminal complaints had been filed against

11     these people previously, let them show a document.  We don't have any

12     evidence that any of these people had been the subject of an

13     investigation before.

14             MS. KORNER:  If we look, please, at -- I think we'd have to go

15     back to ...

16             I'm sorry, Your Honour.  Rather than waste time, can I look for

17     the document at the end of the day, and I'll come back to this tomorrow.

18     Thank you very much.  Right.

19        Q.   This report ends, if we look, please, at the last page in

20     English.  And the last page in B/C/S as well, sorry.

21             I'm sorry, before we do that, the whole thing had started off by

22     a complaint about what was happening in Karanovac.  Is that right?

23        A.   Well, one of the passages in this report is certainly that

24     inhabitants of Karanovac were complaining against the conduct of

25     individual members of the former detachment of the CSB.

Page 7715

 1        Q.   All right.  I'm' sorry, then we should look at that as well,

 2     please, and then I'll go back.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Could we look at page 18 in English and the

 4     penultimate page in B/C/S.  It's page 10, I think.  Got it.  Right.

 5        Q.   You say that:

 6             "Considering the fact that before the creation of this

 7     information we did not receive the list of former members of the special

 8     purposes police detachment from the Security Services Centre Banja Luka,

 9     authorised employees ... obtained data that the ... following 15 persons

10     from the territory of the local community Karanovac were members of this

11     detachment."

12             And you list those people there.  Is that right?  And the 15 --

13             MS. KORNER:  If we go to the next page in English.  Nenad is the

14     last -- Kajkut, employed in the CSB Banja Luka.

15             All right.  Now can we -- sorry, the last page in each of the

16     documents.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Where does it say in the document

20     that Kajkut, one of those mentioned, was employed in the centre in

21     Banja Luka?

22             MS. KORNER:  According to the translation I have -- sorry, we'll

23     have to go back to it, as I can't read Cyrillic.  We need -- sorry, we

24     need -- yes, can we go back to the page 15.  Could we look at 15.  Does

25     that say "employed in the CSB Banja Luka"?

Page 7716

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  But the context in which it

 2     is read.  This is a list of members who were from the local commune of

 3     Karanovac, not a list of persons involved in criminal activities.

 4             This is a list of persons from Karanovac who were involved in the

 5     CSB, not involved in criminal activities.  That's the point of my

 6     objection.

 7             MS. KORNER:  That's not what you said.  That's slightly

 8     different.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's written in the document.

10             MS. KORNER:  That's slightly different.

11             Sorry, your objection was it didn't say he was employed in the

12     CSB.  Do you now withdraw that objection?

13             JUDGE HALL:  That is what the transcript records your objection

14     as being or having been, Mr. Krgovic.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] You know what the point is,

16     Your Honours.  The Prosecutor, when she was reading this document, was

17     reading the next page, saying -- in fact talking about the involvement of

18     certain members of the CSB in criminal activities.

19             And then she referred him to the previous page, another part of

20     the document listing persons from the local commune of Karanovac who were

21     involved in criminal activities thus creating a confusion, implying that

22     Nenad Kajkut was involved in criminal activities.

23             That is the essence of my objection.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I didn't get that impression.  But if it is possible

25     that someone following the line of question may have been so confused,

Page 7717

 1     then perhaps Ms. Korner it may have been necessary to --

 2             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  To follow -- I have been trying to skip

 5     because it is a very lengthy document.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  And, of course, Mr. Krgovic has the advantage over

 7     both of us in that the original document he is able to -- to comprehend

 8     in its -- in B/C/S.

 9             But it seems as if we have passed -- the point has been made and

10     we have moved on, haven't we?

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I just wanted -- because I have still got to

12     go and double-check something.  But, Your Honour, can I leave this

13     document, except for the last part, and then come back to it, I'm afraid,

14     tomorrow when I have, as it were, correlated everything.  Because it is

15     slightly complicated.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We're meeting --

17             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Thursday, Your Honour.  Thursday.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yeah.

19             MS. KORNER:  All right.

20        Q.   I'll tell you what, Mr. Tutus, you have to come back on Thursday.

21     We'll leave this document.  I'll come back to that on Thursday morning,

22     if I may, briefly.  And can we now look, please, at the document that you

23     received from Mr. Zupljanin, which is 1971.

24             MS. KORNER:  65 ter 1971.

25        Q.   Again, I think this is a document that you had with you when you

Page 7718

 1     were interviewed.  It's dated the 20th of July, and it says:

 2             "The security information collected so far indicate that the

 3     security situation on the territory of Banja Luka could be disturbed."

 4             Now you told us that when you spoke to him, or when he rang you,

 5     he was talking about the -- the unit -- I think you said on the front.  I

 6     need to go back to what you actually said.  Yes, leaving the front line.

 7             Here the document says that:

 8             "The security situation on the territory of Banja Luka could be

 9     disturbed."

10        A.   Yes, yes.  He told me over the phone that part of that unit might

11     leave the front line and that could pose a threat to the demarcation

12     line, to the front line.

13        Q.   But the front line wasn't in Banja Luka, was it?

14        A.   Well, I didn't say it was in Banja Luka.  I said I didn't know in

15     which area they were actually located.

16        Q.   All right.  Due to the arrest of these two men:

17             "It is necessary that you release these individuals from

18     detention and inform them to report to the Banja Luka SJB for future

19     operative steps, in other words, escort them to the Banja Luka basic

20     court ... if the above persons fail to report to you at the specified

21     time ..."

22             So you took the words "it is necessary that you release these

23     individuals" not as an order but as a request?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   So you didn't and we then saw what happened.  All right.

Page 7719

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 2     please.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1091, Your Honour.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the next document is yet another

 6     report dated the 21st of July, about behaviour of the Special Police,

 7     signed by Mr. Josic.  Rather than going through it, may I just ask that

 8     it be admitted as part of that group.  It's the --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             MS. KORNER:  The number of this document is -- oh, I'm sorry, it

11     is already admitted.  Forget that.

12             Can we look, please, now at document P585, very quickly.

13        Q.   That's, again -- this is the actual -- another report, sorry,

14     which has sent not only to the CSB but to the Serbian Republic of BiH

15     MUP, a report signed by Mr. Josic, which talks about another criminal

16     report of robberies and the like and it's signed by Mr. Josic.

17             MS. KORNER:  And, again, can we just -- Your Honours, in fact can

18     we just note that and -- it is already admitted.  Sorry, I slightly

19     confused myself.

20             Could we look, please, at the exhibit which has already been

21     done, P586, which is the Glas report of this whole unfortunate incident.

22        Q.   And I want to ask you about one part of it, we need to go to the

23     second page in English.  All of this is contained on one page in the

24     newspaper.

25             Mr. Ecim was apparently interviewed.  And it says:

Page 7720

 1             "The entire command appealed to ... Radic, Vukic,

 2     Radoslav Brdjanin to insist on the arrested men being released.  But

 3     [sic] Mr. Tutus refused all these requests."

 4             Were you contacted as well by Mr. Radic, Mr. Vukic and

 5     Mr. Brdjanin?

 6        A.   President Radic did contact me.  Dr. Vukic was with him.  He was

 7     in his company, but he said nothing.

 8        Q.   Mm-hm.  And were they asking for the release of these men as

 9     well?

10        A.   President Radic only asked me for information about what had

11     happened, and I told him what had happened.

12        Q.   And after you told him what had happened, did he ask you, or

13     didn't he, to release these men?

14        A.   He didn't.

15        Q.   So this is inaccurate reporting by the -- the -- well, I suppose

16     it -- not quite.  Just says "Mr. Tutus refused all requests."

17             Did somebody called Kojic come to the police station?

18        A.   Yes, he did.

19        Q.   And what about Ecim?  Did he come to the police station as well?

20        A.   He wasn't in my office.  We didn't see -- I didn't see him.

21        Q.   Well, were you told he had gone somewhere else?

22        A.   His name was never mentioned.

23        Q.   All right.  And then the report goes on to say:

24             "Tutus told me," that must be Kojic, I suppose, "that no one

25     could order him around and he tore up the decision annulling custody at

Page 7721

 1     the same time, says Ecim."  So Ecim appears to be saying to the newspaper

 2     he was there.  "At the same time he placed the whole police force on full

 3     alert, with guns at the ready, and threw Kojic out of his office."

 4             Is that what happened?

 5        A.   After the discussion between myself and the chief of the centre,

 6     when he promised he would draft this order to have them released, I went

 7     to the office and Chief Josic was there.  And then Kojic appeared.  I

 8     didn't know him at the time.  He said he was from the detachment.  He

 9     said, I've come pursuant to a decision according to which our comrades

10     should be released from prison.  I said that I didn't have such a

11     decision from the chief of the centre.  I said I had received the

12     dispatch from the operative duty service, and the dispatch didn't show

13     that there was a direct order for their release.  I said that I wouldn't

14     do that and that there was no decision on their release from detention.

15     Perhaps a decision had been prepared on the desk but I really threw it

16     into the basket.  He left, and Ecim simply did not appear at all.

17        Q.   All right.  Yes, thank you.  That's all I want to ask about that

18     document, which I think is already an exhibit.

19             And the next one is an exhibit so I don't have to ask you about

20     that.

21             While I'm looking for the next document, can I just ask you this,

22     Mr. Tutus.  During the meetings that you had with Mr. Zupljanin and the

23     other chiefs of the SJBs, did you meet Simo Drljaca from Prijedor?

24        A.   We were at the professional council of the centre together.

25     That's where we would meet.

Page 7722

 1        Q.   Now, at some stage during August of 1992, was there discussion

 2     about the information that was being requested from the CSB and then the

 3     SJBs as to any detention or collection centres that were in the

 4     municipality?

 5        A.   Well, I can't remember the details.  Perhaps there were such

 6     discussions.

 7        Q.   Well, do you remember any conversation - again, can I remind you,

 8     you were asked about this in interview - between Simo Drljaca and

 9     Stojan Zupljanin about the collection centres or detention facilities

10     that had been set up in Prijedor?

11        A.   I remember a discussion between the chief of the centre,

12     Zupljanin, and Simo Drljaca.  It was in a gymnasium.  It was quite a

13     large gathering, and before the meeting started, Chief Zupljanin issued a

14     warning to Simo Drljaca.  He said, What did you do down there, Simo?  You

15     will be held to account for that.  Something to that effect.

16             What the subject was was not quite clear.  I couldn't draw any

17     conclusions.  I don't know whether it was about collection centres or

18     something else.  But, in any event, he issued this warning to him.

19        Q.   And what was the reaction of Mr. Drljaca to that?

20        A.   He reacted in a fairly and aggressive way.  But three days later,

21     Zupljanin repeated this to him at a different meeting of the professional

22     council.  He repeated the same thing.

23             He was obviously dissatisfied with something that was going on

24     there.

25        Q.   All right.  Did -- did Mr. Zupljanin ever explain to you that he

Page 7723

 1     visited any of these collection centres?

 2        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... didn't.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but the witness's

 4     answer hasn't been recorded in the transcript, Simo Drljaca's reaction.

 5     He said he was aggressive.  This entire part of the transcript is missing

 6     so could the witness perhaps repeat his answer.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Certainly.

 8        Q.   Mr. Tutus, could you tell us again what Simo Drljaca's reaction

 9     was when you say that Mr. Zupljanin told him he would be held -- he'd be

10     held -- you will be held to account for that.

11        A.   I said that Simo reacted in a nervous and aggressive manner.  In

12     an inappropriate manner.

13        Q.   And in what way?  I mean, what did he say or do?

14        A.   Well, he was unpleasant, brazen.  I can't repeat what his exact

15     words were.  That was over 15 years ago, but I do know that he swore.  He

16     said something that was -- that was brazen.

17        Q.   All right.  Did your police from your police stations become

18     involved with convoys that were coming from the Prijedor area?

19        A.   I don't know which convoys you are referring to.

20        Q.   People who had been in places like Trnopolje and were being taken

21     out towards Travnik.

22        A.   I have no such information.  Perhaps the traffic police station

23     was still part of the SJB or perhaps it was part of the centre.  If there

24     were any such convoys, if that police -- that traffic police station was

25     still functional, then it could have organised some sort of transport or

Page 7724

 1     escorted some sort of transport, some sort of convoy.  So perhaps there

 2     were such activities.

 3        Q.   Well, you looked at the documents.  I wasn't going to trouble to

 4     show them to you.  But -- wouldn't the traffic police have had to sought

 5     your authority for this?

 6        A.   No one sought my authority.  But if one was working outside

 7     workings hours and if the operative duty service asked for a traffic

 8     police patrol in the field to do certain things, to escort a bus, or two,

 9     or three, through the territory covered by that traffic station, then,

10     those orders would be carried out.

11        Q.   All right.  It's all right.  I'm sorry, I need to find that

12     document.

13             Could you have a look very briefly, though, please, at

14     document 232.

15             Now, this is ...

16             This is a document which shows the payroll for August 1992 of the

17     members of the Banja Luka security -- Special Police detachment,

18     containing apparently their signatures.

19             And we see at the top, Lukic and Ecim and Samardzija.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Do you recognise any names - it may be the same point; I'm going

22     have to double-check - who were drawing pay in August 1992 against whom

23     you had submitted criminal reports way back in June, or Official Notes?

24        A.   Well, I can't remember now.

25             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I'm sorry, it's the same

Page 7725

 1     problem.  I'm going to have to do the double-check.  I thought the

 2     witness could do this himself but I will have to go back and do the check

 3     on that.

 4        Q.   However, do you -- do you recognise the first three names as

 5     members of the CSB Special Police detachment?

 6        A.   Mirko Lukic, Ecim and Samardzija, yes, I know them personally.

 7     Lukic was the commander, as far as I know, yes.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I just ask that this is admitted

 9     and marked.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1092, Your Honours.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, really I have got very

13     little left to ask except concerning -- trying to trace these two

14     documents but I can't do it, as it were, on my feet, so I wonder if we

15     could adjourn now to resume with what little time I have left on Thursday

16     morning.  So I can do this exercise.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Well, in terms of little time I was going to remind

18     you when we took the adjournment at 1.45 that you would have, in fact,

19     exhausted your six hours, so --

20             MS. KORNER:  By quarter to.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22             MS. KORNER:  Yeah.  Well, Your Honour, may I ask, very simply,

23     that I get 15 -- an extra 5, 15 minutes on Thursday morning and we

24     adjourn now, because effectively to do this exercise of tracing the names

25     into this is -- is one that is going to take up time while I'm on my

Page 7726

 1     feet.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Tutus, as I -- [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Your Honour, please.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  As you may recall, when I would have been speaking

 7     to counsel at the beginning of today's session, for certain

 8     administrative reasons we are unable to sit tomorrow.  So, therefore, we

 9     will take the adjournment now and resume on Thursday morning.  And for

10     the information of counsel, we would be sitting in Courtroom I on

11     Thursday.

12             So, Mr. Tutus, I remind you of what I said at the adjournment

13     yesterday, about your not discussing the case with anyone outside of the

14     court and not communicating with counsel.

15             Thank you.

16                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day of

18                           March, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.