Page 9200
1 Monday, 26 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
6 IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.
7 JUDGE HALL
8 Good afternoon to everyone. May we begin in the usual manner by
9 taking today's appearances, please.
10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: On behalf of the Prosecution, Your Honours,
11 Alexis Demirdjian, assisted by Case Manager Crispian Smith; and Senior
12 Trial Attorney, Thomas Hannis.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic;
14 Slobodan Cvijetic; Ms. Deirdre Montgomery; and Ms. Tatjana Savic, who is
15 presently outside of the courtroom, appearing for Stanisic Defence team
16 this afternoon. Thank you.
17 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. For
18 Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic. Thank you.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 We have been alerted that there may be one or two preliminary
21 matters before the witness is brought in.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour. It is in relation to the next
23 witness, not this one, ST-216, if you recall we sought to add him to the
24 list in December. And At that time we proposed to call him either as
25 92 ter or as a viva voce. And as 92 ter, if you remember, we proposed to
Page 9201
1 call him for two hours. You requested clarification in February, we
2 filed clarification saying that we would be only saving one hour if we
3 called him as 92 ter. So in the end, we still have to call him as a
4 viva voce, which you did grant; however, you said it would be for two
5 hours.
6 Now having proofed the witness over the weekend and seeing the
7 number of documents I have, I will try my best but I wish to be granted
8 the extra hour for the time being, and if I don't use it, then we can
9 erase that. But I think that considering that he has never testified
10 before and that we need to establish the background, his role as the
11 prison warden, the type of procedure that was present before we get to
12 the conflict, I would I would need that extra probably half an hour,
13 45 minutes to establish that before getting to the crucial elements.
14 For that reason, I would ask for an additional hour.
15 One more matter that might be of significance is that at this
16 time we haven't confirmed any other witness after this -- after the
17 second witness today. We're still waiting to heat if we have another
18 witness for Thursday.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE HALL
22 for the additional hour for this witness, number 216?
23 MR. ZECEVIC: We do not oppose, Your Honour.
24 MR. PANTELIC: No objection.
25 JUDGE HALL
Page 9202
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE HALL
3 Witness ST-216.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm much obliged, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MR. ZECEVIC: I alerted the Trial Chamber that I have one
7 preliminary matter that I would like the guidance from the Trial Chamber.
8 And I will speak in Serbian very shortly.
9 [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know to which extent you
10 are informed of this, but around the Easter holidays, or just after the
11 Easter holidays, a Croatian website published the official register of
12 Croatian defenders, that is participants in the war operations in Croatia
13 from 1991 through 1995. To the extent I have been able to establish,
14 that document is an official document of the Republic of Croatia
15 However, it was put up on the website, as I've also been able to
16 determine -- been able to determine from media reporting by an
17 unauthorised person. Based on my knowledge so as far, it's my impression
18 that there is no question of authenticity. It's, rather, a question of
19 authorisation and the security of Croatia and some other issues over the
20 publication of this register of defenders.
21 It's the website of www.registarbranitelja.com, and it includes
22 information about affiliations to various units in the Army of Croatia,
23 the place of residence. There is also a search engine; you can put in a
24 name and you get information about the person concerned, their movement
25 through the service, career, et cetera.
Page 9203
1 Two or three months ago, as you may remember, Your Honours, we
2 had a similar situation, when we were discussing whether documents from
3 the public domain, such as the Internet, may be used. On that earlier
4 occasion a different document was in question, and Ms. Korner was opposed
5 to its use. The Trial Chamber was of the view that the public domain, as
6 such, is acceptable, but that it would be decided whether such documents
7 can be used on a case-to-case basis. I discussed this already with my
8 colleagues from the Prosecution, namely, that I intend to raise this
9 issue in a preliminary way, and to seek instructions from the
10 Trial Chamber on how to proceed.
11 The next witness who is about to be heard refers to certain
12 persons of Croatian nationality as persons who had spent a certain time
13 with him together in detention or in a collection centre, and based on
14 the allegations made by this witness, some of these persons had been
15 killed, and he has allegedly knowledge about it. In my searches, I
16 arrived at quite different information or at least information that
17 challenges such allegations made by this witness. I printed out those
18 pages from the website. They have been uploaded into e-court, and, of
19 course, there is no translation available because all this happened over
20 the weekend and there was no possibility to translate anything. But only
21 names and numbers are concerned, so I don't think there will be any need
22 to seek an official translation, unless the Trial Chamber demands it.
23 This is what I wanted to present to the Trial Chamber and to seek
24 instructions, in which way it would be most appropriate for me to use
25 these documents in my cross-examination of this witness.
Page 9204
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE HALL
3 The last -- what I understood you to have said is that there are
4 only names and numbers concerned, and therefore the question of
5 translating them doesn't arise. Did I understand that correctly.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: That is correct, Your Honours. Because when you --
7 when you enter the website, there are -- there are -- there's small
8 places where with you can type in the name, the surname and the name,
9 plus the additional option is that you -- you print down the name of the
10 -- of the unit which you are looking for, the special --or special name
11 of the unit that you're looking for.
12 And once you click on a search, then the name and the surname of
13 the person appears with the name of the unit where he participated and
14 the time of his participation in that particular unit.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 was going ask, which is, do I understand that this is a -- that this
17 website is essentially a reference tool and the -- it is a means by which
18 you would -- you could access information in respect of particular
19 persons as would you wish to? In other words, it isn't a question of the
20 entirety of the website being something that you would have wished to
21 incorporate by whatever means. It is merely the -- the result of
22 particular searches that you -- thank you.
23 MR. ZECEVIC: That's correct, Your Honours. Because it is
24 basically a search engine which gives you the opportunity to access the
25 database which contains this is data.
Page 9205
1 JUDGE HALL
2 JUDGE HALL
3 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 The Prosecution has concerns about these kind of documents. As
5 Your Honours will know, these days almost anything can be posted on the
6 Internet by anybody. I don't know much about this. I heard briefly from
7 Mr. Zecevic before we started today, I think last weeks I heard something
8 about it in a decision in the hallway in our office. There was a -- as I
9 understand in Croatia
10 particular collection, that it was posted and then -- I had heard -- I
11 don't know, maybe Mr. Zecevic can enlighten. And heard that it had been
12 withdrawn or removed from the website. I don't know if that's correct.
13 He is shaking his head no.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much. Just briefly.
15 It has been remove for one day and then it has been reinstated.
16 And it is still operated.
17 MR. HANNIS: Be that as it may, my concern is, again, the
18 provenance of the document, we know what the website purports to be, but
19 we only know that because it says it itself. If these documents are
20 genuine and authentic, I would suggest the Defence make a Request for
21 Assistance through the usual channels. We get something from the
22 ministry stamped and confirmed, et cetera.
23 Now if all Mr. Zupljanin wants to do at this point is use it as a
24 good faith basis for asking a question on cross-examination, I don't have
25 a problem with that. For example, the witness says, I was in detention
Page 9206
1 with somebody named Franjo Boban, or something, a Croat name. And
2 Mr. Zecevic says, Well, are you aware that Franjo Boban was apparently
3 still alive in 1994 and serving in the Croatian services?
4 He can ask that question. But then he has to live with the
5 answer from the defendant. At this point, I don't think he is entitled
6 to introduce some page he printed out from his computer off the Internet
7 to challenge a witness. He can ask him question if he got a good faith
8 basis to ask the question. But I don't think we have enough information
9 about the authenticity and the veracity of that document on the website.
10 So that would be my suggestion to the Trial Chamber, at this
11 stage, how to proceed with this evidence.
12 Thank you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL
15 Baring in -- and we are particularly concerned about the caution that
16 Mr. Hannis has raised. But we -- we appreciate the value which this
17 document may have to the Trial Chamber, so it is something that we will
18 discuss ourselves and indicate to counsel our views after a break or --
19 or sometime certainly before the witness comes.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE HALL
24 the witness to follow that the -- your --
25 MR. ZECEVIC: The present witness. The present witness.
Page 9207
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, at the first break, I guess. Thank you.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE HALL
6 declaration, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 WITNESS: EDIN HADZOVIC
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE HALL
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Edin Hadzovic.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 18 June 1951, in Doboj.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I used to be a clerk, and now I'm
20 retired.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosniak.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 You have testified previously before this Tribunal, have you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
Page 9208
1 JUDGE HALL
2 familiar with the procedure, but I would, nevertheless, remind you that
3 the way in which testimony is elicited is that the side calling you - in
4 this case, the Prosecution - would begin by asking you questions, and
5 then the side opposite would have an opportunity to cross-examine you.
6 The Prosecution could then re-examine, and the Judges or the Chamber may
7 themselves have questions of you.
8 You have been called under expedited procedure having regard to
9 your previous testimony, and the time that the Prosecution would spend
10 with you is not as long as it would have been on -- when you first gave
11 evidence. And with that, I would invite the ...
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE HALL
14 has is an hour, and cross -- the counsel for the first accused,
15 Mr. Stanisic, has two hours; and the other side has requested only a
16 quarter of an hour. So with that, I would invite counsel for the
17 Prosecution to begin their examination-in-chief.
18 There is one other point that I would make. There is a pattern
19 of sitting which the Tribunal follows, largely for technical reasons in
20 terms of the tapes that have to be changed, and so we sit for no longer
21 than an hour and a half at one stretch. In fact, it is shorter than
22 that. But, of course, if there any point at which you are distressed by
23 any reason and you need for the Chamber to take a break before the
24 ordinary time of breaking would occur, please indicate that to us and we
25 would accommodate you.
Page 9209
1 Yes.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hadzovic.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, you met investigators of the Office of the
7 Prosecutor in March 2001 and provided a statement at that time; is that
8 right?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. And yesterday, when we met, you were given a chance to review this
11 statement; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And while I'm asking the question, if we could display 65 ter
14 10344.
15 Mr. Hadzovic, in March 2001 when you provided that statement, you
16 answered the questions to the best of your knowledge at that time?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And if you were asked the same questions today, would you provide
19 the same answers?
20 A. Well, yes.
21 Q. Now, we will be dealing with your supplemental statements during
22 the course of this testimony. But I believe you have made one correction
23 to your ICTY statement.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we could go to page 7, both in the English
25 and the B/C/S version.
Page 9210
1 Q. Sir, at paragraph 4 of the statement in your language, this is the
2 first paragraph in the English version, the paragraph starts with: "Until
3 the 18th of May, 1992 ..."
4 Now is it correct that in a supplemental statement you corrected
5 that date and you indicated that it was the 18th of June, not the 18th of
6 May?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, since you provided this statement, you testified in the case
9 against Predrag Kujundzic in the state court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you testified in November 2009 in the case against Stanisic
12 and Simatovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And, finally, two weeks ago you met with Investigator
15 Michael Koehler and you provided a supplemental statement.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, at this stage I wish to tender the
18 92 ter statement in evidence, and I will be dealing orally with the
19 supplemental statement he provided two weeks ago as well as the
20 corrections he made therein.
21 JUDGE HALL
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1296.1, Your Honours.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.
24 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, in your statement in 2001, you stated that you were
25 arrested on the 8th of May; is that correct?
Page 9211
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And for reference, this is page 5 of the B/C/S
3 version and page 4 of the English version.
4 Q. Now two weeks ago in your supplementary statement, you provided
5 some slightly different data or clarification. Could you provide that
6 clarification here, please.
7 A. When Doboj was liberated, according to the Serbian side, as they
8 put it, Doboj was raided. During the raid, all the Muslims and Croats
9 or, rather, the Bosnians and Croats who stayed behind were arrested. And
10 on the 3rd of May all of this was over, and we were brought back on the
11 6th of May. Then, on the 11th of May, there was a new raid. We were
12 picked up. All the men who were found in their houses were picked up.
13 My first -- next door neighbours came. They put us in a police van, in a
14 windowless police van, and they took to us prison.
15 Q. Now, on the same page of that statement you stated that soldiers
16 arrested you on the 8th of May.
17 Could you specify what these soldiers were wearing?
18 A. They were wearing camouflage military uniforms and red berets. We
19 understood that they had come from Banja Luka, that they were some sort
20 of the Banja Luka Corps.
21 Q. How did you conclude that they were from Banja Luka?
22 A. My next door neighbour was a native of Banja Luka. He was a Serb.
23 They didn't take him. And they told him that they were coming from the
24 same area as he hailed from, and they didn't take him away.
25 Q. Now, on that occasion, who else was arrested with you?
Page 9212
1 A. My next door neighbours, Faruk Ajanovic, Fehro Mujakovic, and
2 another man who was picked up on the road to hospital. He put him to the
3 police van as well, and we were all taken to prison.
4 Q. Now you mentioned in your statement that you were placed in this
5 police van, and you just stated it again. Where were you taken first?
6 A. We were first taken to the Doboj police premises, the MUP.
7 Q. And in the Doboj police premises, where exactly were you taken?
8 A. We were taken behind the police building, where there's a garage.
9 This is where the van came, and they unloaded us from the van. It's an
10 enclosed police compound where their vehicles are parked.
11 Q. And when they unloaded you, where were you brought next?
12 A. Then they took us to the MUP building.
13 Q. Was there any -- on any specific floor?
14 A. They took us through the back door on -- onto the ground floor
15 where the duty policemen's offices are, and the gate booth, and probably
16 some room for interrogation, and a waiting room, things like that.
17 Q. Very well. Now you mentioned in your statement that you waited
18 quite a long time and that you were interviewed by a man by the name of
19 Branislav Petricevic. Now which organisation did he belong to?
20 A. He was an inspector with the CSB, a police inspector. He is an
21 economist by profession, and we used to attend the same grammar school.
22 Q. And on that, occasion did you -- did he ask you to provide a
23 statement?
24 A. No.
25 Q. In your statement on the same page you say that Petricevic told
Page 9213
1 you your half brother by the name of Zulfo Ciric is already detained in
2 cell number 7. Is that right?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Where did your half brother work at the time? What was his
5 profession at the time?
6 A. My brother has an a university degree in economics. He was the
7 head for planning and development in Doboj, and after that, he was the
8 CEO of Bosnaprevoz Transportation Company.
9 Q. And this was all prior to the 3rd of May.
10 A. Yes, yes, before the 3rd of May.
11 Q. And after Petricevic interrogated you, where were you taken?
12 A. Petricevic told us that he didn't know what to do with us anymore,
13 because people were being brought constantly and that he have to take us
14 to jail.
15 Q. And by jail, where -- is that where you ended up?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And which jail exactly were you brought to?
18 A. It's a building adjacent to the MUP. It's a small prison which is
19 used only for minor offences, like misdemeanour or traffic offences.
20 Severe criminals were sent to Foca --
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May we display on the screen 65 ter 3419.29.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzovic, I'm going to show you an image, an aerial image
24 of Doboj. And with the help of the usher, I will ask you to mark certain
25 locations.
Page 9214
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, if that could be turned around in
2 landscape. Thank you. Thank you.
3 Q. The usher is going to give you a pen which will allow to you mark
4 on the screen. Now before you make any markings, do you roughly
5 recognise this image?
6 A. Yes, that's the main street in Doboj, where practically all the
7 government buildings are situated. I mean, municipal buildings
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Before the witness makes any markings,
9 Your Honour, could we admit this image because we may use it with other
10 witnesses as well.
11 JUDGE HALL
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1297. The previous exhibit admitted
13 on page 11, line 14, of today's transcript is Exhibit P1296,
14 Your Honours.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
16 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, could you indicate to us the MUP building where you
17 met Mr. Petricevic?
18 A. This is the MUP building.
19 Q. And you told us that you were brought into a van and you were
20 unloaded. Where exactly were you unloaded?
21 A. Here.
22 Q. Can you mark with the letter A the MUP building.
23 A. I put the letter A on both buildings.
24 Q. Are these both MUP buildings?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9215
1 Q. And the location where you were unloaded, could you mark that with
2 a B, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. And could you indicate to us with a letter C the prison where you
5 were taken.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And this, you told us, is the Doboj central prison.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you indicate to us where is the entrance of the prison or
10 the door where you were brought inside the prison.
11 Maybe you can do a little line below and put the letter D.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And facing the prison, there's another building there. Which
14 building is that?
15 A. That's the building of the SDK, or a bank. That's the public
16 accounting and auditing building.
17 Q. And to the left of the prison, there are a number of buildings.
18 Could you indicate to us the building that is adjacent to the prison,
19 what that is.
20 A. This is the court-house, both the district and the municipal
21 court. And this is the head office of a construction company.
22 Q. Where you marked a little dot for the court, could you put the
23 letter E.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. And just behind the court, do you know what that building is?
Page 9216
1 A. I don't know. Unless it has been built later on. This is a
2 boarding house. These are residential buildings, but as for this
3 particular building, I don't remember.
4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we could seize those markings, please. And I
5 would ask that document to be admitted.
6 JUDGE HALL
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1298, Your Honours.
8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.
9 Q. Now, when you were taken inside the prison, could you tell us
10 where you were taken to first.
11 A. We first entered through a big metal door, maybe three doors in
12 width, and it has another small door in it. We first came into a hall.
13 We saw that there was an a receptionist there. And then we were taken
14 here. We went out, and then we re-entered the building from the
15 backyard.
16 Q. And when -- when you say we entered, this -- because you were in the
17 courtyard. Is that what you just said?
18 A. No. It's a hall. When you enter, it's a large area, a hall, a
19 corridor, that is also separated by an identical door, three metres wide
20 and a small door inside that can be used for coming in and going out.
21 Q. Now when you go back in, did there come a time where you faced an
22 officer from the prison?
23 A. A man in the uniform of a prison guard was sitting there. It's a
24 light blue uniform.
25 Q. And can you tell us what happened then.
Page 9217
1 A. Nothing. All he did was allegedly registered us and escorted us
2 to a cell.
3 Q. Now, did you see him write anything?
4 A. Yes, he did. But I don't know what it is that he wrote.
5 Q. Very well. Now you say that you were brought to cell number 7 and
6 you were detained with other prisoners. And I would like to ask you
7 about these detainees.
8 The first name you mentioned in your statement is
9 Mr. Ilija Tipura. Could you tell the Court who Mr. Tipura was --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- and what was his profession before the war.
12 A. Ilija Tipura was one of the most respected and prominent people in
13 Doboj. First he was the director of the railway company. After that he
14 was the mayor, or the president of the municipality. Since he had a
15 Ph.D. in economics, he used to teach at the faculty in Brcko as a
16 professor.
17 Q. What was his ethnicity?
18 A. He was a Croat.
19 Q. And do you know what happened to him during the war?
20 A. He hasn't been found yet. He is still missing.
21 Q. The next person you mentioned is Mr. Karlo Grgic. I will ask you
22 the same question: Who was he and what was his profession?
23 A. He was a Croat. He was commander of the police station before the
24 war, and then he retired.
25 Q. You indicate in your statement that on the -- I believe it was
Page 9218
1 approximately the 9th of May, he taken out and told to say good-bye to
2 his cellmates.
3 A. Yes. And I have never seen him or heard of him again. Is he
4 still missing.
5 Q. Do you know if, after the 9th of May, whether he was brought back
6 to the prison?
7 A. I don't know, because, at that time, I was already in the camp.
8 Q. You also mention Jusuf Sarajlic. Could you tell us what was his
9 profession?
10 A. He was a Bosniak. He was the manager of all shopping malls in
11 Doboj. And for a period of time he was a member of the executive council
12 of the Municipal Assembly of Doboj.
13 MR. ZECEVIC: Page 18, 25, I believe the witness says, "I was
14 already in the camp," not "he." Because it might refer to the other
15 person.
16 Maybe you can clarify that with the witness.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, yes.
18 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, I asked you -- it's just a question of the
19 transcript. I asked you if you knew after the 9th of May, whether
20 Mr. Grgic was brought back. Could you repeat your answer because there
21 is a problem with the transcript.
22 A. I don't know. Because I wasn't in Doboj at the time. I was in a
23 different camp. I, myself.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Does that clarify it sufficiently? Yeah.
25 Your Honour, at this time I would like to show the witness a
Page 9219
1 register from the Doboj prison which was shown to him two weeks ago when
2 he met our investigator. Now we have a version that he marked when he
3 was met two weeks ago, but we also have an unmarked version. On the
4 version that he was shown, he marked individuals that he knew in Doboj.
5 It would save time to just get the documents in without having the
6 witness to mark them again. Unless there's an objection from the
7 Defence.
8 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, in principle, I do not object.
9 But the problem is that when I read the -- the witness's statement and
10 the -- the investigator's report, it appears that some of it was -- was
11 circled in red. When we got the copy, of course, we cannot see which --
12 which ones are in red and which are not.
13 Therefore, some indication on that might be ...
14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let me just verify with Mr. Smith. Just a
15 second.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I understand that the e-mail that was sent to
18 you could only produce it in black and white, but the version that was in
19 e-court was in red with an X through each name.
20 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. I withdraw, because I didn't check the
21 e-court version. Thank you very much. I'm sorry.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: In this case, could we -- this is the marked
23 version of 65 ter 3075. However, the 65 ter number for the marked
24 version is 10344. If we can pull that up version. 45, sorry. 10345.
25 JUDGE HALL
Page 9220
1 marked and unmarked versions?
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I will not seek to exhibit them at this moment
3 because we will have a witness who can authenticate these records. I
4 just want to show him the document and confirm that these are the names
5 that he marked for Your Honours. Yeah.
6 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document? Was it shown to you a couple
7 of weeks ago?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we go to the third page, please, which has the
10 ERN 0675-4595. I assume everybody can see the colours at this stage?
11 Q. Sir, the names that we see here which were encircled in red and
12 have a cross through them, are these the names that you recognised at the
13 time?
14 A. Yes, they are.
15 Q. Just to clarify to the Court, are these individuals that you knew
16 from Doboj?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you see all these people at the prison, or you just knew them?
19 A. I only knew them. I only knew them.
20 Q. And those that you have mentioned to us in your prison cell, those
21 are the ones that you knew were detained?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I will not go through all the pages in this document. But if you
24 look at, for example, the first page for now, could you tell us the
25 ethnicity of the individuals on this page?
Page 9221
1 A. They are all either Bosniaks or Croats.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go to the next page.
3 Q. Again, we see additional markings. Now you went through the
4 entire book. And unless there's an objection from the Defence, would you
5 say that your answer to the previous question reflects the ethnic
6 background of all the people listed in this document?
7 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.
8 Q. It's probably my mistake. I'll rephrase.
9 You told us on the first page that the individuals on that page
10 were Bosniaks and Croats.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you have seen the documents two weeks ago. Can you say
13 whether the rest of the document includes strictly Croat and Bosniak
14 names.
15 A. Exclusively them. Both Croats and Muslims feature in all the
16 lists.
17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, at this stage I only seek to mark
18 the document for identification. We will have a witness who be able to
19 authenticate the document.
20 JUDGE HALL
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1299, marked for identification,
22 Your Honours.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
24 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, you told us that were detained in the prison for
25 three days and that you were released around approximately the 11th of
Page 9222
1 May.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you told us that you were released between the hours of 8.00
4 and 11.00.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell us why these hours are relevant?
7 A. You know that after Doboj had been captured curfew was introduced,
8 allowing the Muslims and Croats to move only for three hours between
9 8.00 a.m.
10 staples.
11 After that time, one was not allowed to leave their residential
12 premises. That is what was known as the curfew.
13 Q. How did you come to learn about the existence of the curfew?
14 A. That was announced on the radio as well, in Doboj.
15 Q. And did the radio announcement describe who took the decision to
16 impose the curfew?
17 A. I really don't know.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
21 Q. Now, on page 6 --
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, curfew in Doboj is an adjudicated
23 fact. I tell you which one. 1268.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: So Let's not waste time.
Page 9223
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just trying to clarify how he came to learn
2 about it and who was issuing it.
3 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, on page 6 of your statement you told us that you
4 were arrested a second time on the 12th of June, 1992.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you were first taken to a warehouse in Usora.
7 A. There had been a raid against the entire remaining population.
8 They loaded us onto buses and took us to Usora which is a military depot
9 where they repaired their trucks, and there were also hangars where they
10 kept their spare parts for cars and vehicles.
11 Q. Did you know who was in charge at the Usora warehouse?
12 A. It was a military installation.
13 Q. And did the installation have a commander?
14 A. When I was brought there, there were two or three hangars there,
15 into which we were placed, and every hangar had its own commander. The
16 commander of my hangar was Zlatan Krekic [realtime transcript read in
17 error "Latan Rekic"], a reserve policeman. And there were also reserve
18 army troops who were wearing olive green grey uniforms. And they were
19 there guarding us.
20 Q. The transcript at page 24, line 6, records the name Latan Rekic.
21 Could you clarify that for us.
22 A. Krekic is the last name, beginning with a K.
23 Q. Could we display on the screen 65 ter 2397.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The first name is
25 Zlatan, with a Z, not Latan.
Page 9224
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
2 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, do you see the document on the screen?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You saw this document for the first time yesterday, did you?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And could we go to page 3 of this document in
7 B/C/S. The English version doesn't have the names, only the headers.
8 Q. And can you look at number 74.
9 A. Zlatan Krekic.
10 Q. Do you recognise anybody else on this page?
11 A. Yes, I do. Stanko Sljuka, Nenad Sitnicic. No one else.
12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we go to the next page, page 4.
13 Q. And on this page, do you recognise anyone?
14 A. Zoran Sljuka. Slobodan Pekic -- Sorry, Tekic, with a T. No one
15 else.
16 Q. How do you know these people?
17 A. Well, I know them from Doboj, from the civilian life.
18 Q. These were citizens from the town of Doboj?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, at this stage, this being a
21 payroll from the Doboj CSB
22 We will have a witness to authenticate it later on.
23 JUDGE HALL
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1300 marked for identification,
25 Your Honours.
Page 9225
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
2 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, You mentioned in your statement, and this is for
3 reference at page 7, that you were transferred to Percin's Disco on the
4 19th of June.
5 A. Yes. From the 12th until the 19th I was in those military
6 hangars, and then we were separated. Half of the people were brought
7 back to Doboj, probably to prison, and the rest of us were taken to this
8 Percin discotheque.
9 Q. Did there come a time when you were interrogated in the
10 Percin's Disco?
11 A. One day - I don't know exactly when - inspectors came from the
12 MUP. And since the weather was nice, they put up tables outside, sat
13 around there. There were about ten of them. And then they took us out
14 in groups of ten or so, and each of us was interrogated by an inspector.
15 Q. Do you remember who interrogated you?
16 A. I was interrogated by a man I had been to school with,
17 Branislav Petricevic. I mentioned him already.
18 Q. And did you recognise other inspectors?
19 A. Among others, I recognised Slobodan Dujkovic, Milan Savic. I
20 can't remember anyone else. It was a long time ago.
21 Q. Was Slobodan Dujkovic interrogating other prisoners?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And was there anything that had happened during this
24 interrogation?
25 A. He must have known this prisoner from before, and when he was
Page 9226
1 interrogated him, Dujkovic took this tool for putting out fire from a
2 nearby destroyed petrol station and hit the man on the head.
3 Q. What happened to this man?
4 A. So after this man was hit on the head by a shovel, he was taken
5 back to the camp. I think he eventually got out of the camp, but I'm not
6 sure. Because after the human shield was used, I was taken out of the
7 camp and he stayed behind.
8 Q. What was the name of this detainee?
9 A. Slobodan Cicak.
10 Q. Was there another member of his family detained at the
11 Percin's Disco?
12 A. His father was there, Stipo Cicak. He was detained with the rest
13 of us at the disco, a man of about 70-plus. He was an economist who had
14 worked as a clerk -- as an employee at the railway company.
15 Q. And could you tell the Court what happened to Mr. Stipo Cicak?
16 A. Stipo Cicak was brought from his apartment already beaten up. He
17 was barely breathing. He was unable to drink water, and he died. Three
18 or four days after his death, we asked them to take the body away because
19 it was beginning to smell, and only then did the police come with a
20 coffin and took him away.
21 Q. You mentioned the human shields incident on 12th of July, where
22 you were taken with 50 other detainees. Could you describe, first of
23 all, who took you out of the disco.
24 A. On the 12th July, around 6.30, an attack began. The BH army was
25 probably launching an attack on Doboj, although we didn't know exactly
Page 9227
1 what was happening because we were locked up inside. There was a
2 commotion in Doboj. Buses came, bringing reservist and soldiers were who
3 supposed to up the defence against the BH army. And when things came to
4 a head, and it looked like Doboj was about to fall, a man whose name we
5 didn't know, we knew him only as Golub, came in, and 50 of us were taken
6 out without any roll-call. The first 50 who were closest to the door
7 were pushed out of the building.
8 Q. And were you taken to?
9 A. We were taken to a school building nearby. We were stripped to
10 the waist and lined up in rows of ten. They seemed to be waiting for
11 something. And in this waiting, one member of the MUP who used to be a
12 chief in the MUP in the past talked to someone on the Motorola and said
13 that Andrija Bjelosevic had approved a human shield to be used and that
14 the human shields should be treated humanely.
15 Q. Now, how did you hear this?
16 A. He was standing right next to us. Because the man who had brought
17 us out was standing facing us on -- on the other side of this column of
18 people, and this other man shouted across the column of people to him
19 that the human shields had been approved.
20 Q. Who was Andrija Bjelosevic?
21 A. He was the chief of the CSB
22 perhaps the DB, the state security. I don't really know much about these
23 various services in the MUP.
24 Q. And immediately after this Motorola call, what happened?
25 A. Then the man known as Golub immediately shot one of the men in the
Page 9228
1 back of the head, Drago Kalem from Kalenovci village, and he said it was
2 an example. If we tried to escape, we would all get a bullet in the back
3 of the head.
4 Q. I wish to show you a couple of documents, and that will be my
5 examination-in-chief.
6 First of all, could we display 65 ter 3522.
7 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, this is a list from the CSB Doboj crime department.
8 Could you tell us if you recognise any of the names here
9 A. I know them all.
10 Q. You mentioned Branislav Petricevic. Is he featured on this list?
11 A. Yes. Yes, he is.
12 Q. And is there anybody else on this list that you saw during these
13 events in May or June 1992?
14 A. Slobodan Dujkovic. Not the others.
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I would ask again this document to be marked for
16 identification, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE HALL
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1301, marked for identification,
19 Your Honours.
20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display 65 ter 3164.
21 Q. Sir, this is map of Doboj that I showed you yesterday. It will be
22 coming up, just a second.
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, if we could zoom in.
24 Q. And with the help of the usher, I will ask you to mark this map.
25 First of all, could you indicate to us where is the main road in
Page 9229
1 Doboj on this map?
2 A. Here. This road here. How shall I mark it?
3 Q. If you just put a line on it.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And where are the -- first of all, where is the prison, the
6 central prison?
7 A. It should be here.
8 Q. Could you put the letter Z there.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. You told us about two other locations -- well, first of all, you
11 were taken to the Usora warehouse. If you could indicate that.
12 A. Yes. Just a moment.
13 That should be the one. Maybe this.
14 Q. Could you put the -- well, you made two dots over there. Could
15 you put the letter U next to the barracks.
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we help the witness erase whatever he
17 wants to.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Here.
20 Q. And finally the Percin's Disco, if you could mark that.
21 A. I think it's not visible. It's next to the bridge, towards the
22 end.
23 Q. Very well.
24 And from the barracks to the centre of town, what is the distance
25 roughly speaking?
Page 9230
1 A. About a kilometre and a half, maximum two.
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we seize these markings, and I would like to
3 offer this map.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P13202 [sic], Your Honours.
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I think I have a few minutes for my last topic.
7 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, you mentioned in your statement - and that is on the
8 last page - that one of the two mosques in Doboj town was totally
9 destroyed.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall when it was destroyed?
12 A. It was destroyed -- it was first shelled by artillery and the
13 minaret was damaged. And then they came again after the shelling, which
14 was on the 3rd of May. They came again, and blew it up so that it was
15 razed to the ground.
16 Q. And where is --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, adjudicated fact 1271,
18 destruction of mosques in Doboj.
19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just a second, please.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: During May and June 1992, 21 Muslim and Catholic
21 monuments in Doboj municipality including ... and so on.
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Microphone not activated] The Doboj town mosque
23 is included in the list?
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes.
25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well. In that case, I have no further
Page 9231
1 questions.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have one more question, Mr. Demirdjian, for
3 you. On your list, what is the purpose of having a document on the
4 general list and then on the list for this witness and eventually on the
5 list for another witness. It seems to be the same document on -- on two
6 lists. Is there any specific purpose for that?
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The general list was just for the purpose of
8 having the package for all documents in relation to this municipality,
9 and then we split the list per witness.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: So you work on the list for this witness.
11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
13 JUDGE HALL
14 well take the break at this point and return in 20 minutes, Mr. ...
15 [The witness stands down]
16 --- Recess taken at 3.57 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
18 JUDGE HALL
19 escorted back to the stand, could you clarify something for us, please.
20 The -- this leak, I think was a word you used, is it -- is the
21 search engine a government search engine which has, without
22 authorisation, been made available to the general public? Or is this an
23 unknown third party who has privately set up a search engine which allows
24 access to the original government document?
25 Do you understand the question?
Page 9232
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand the question.
3 I will try to the best of my knowledge to respond.
4 Your Honour -- [Microphone not activated] can I get the witness
5 to take off his ...
6 JUDGE HALL
7 MR. ZECEVIC: To the best of my knowledge, Your Honour, the
8 search engine and the database are -- authentically government. The
9 point was that some third party without the proper authorisation put its
10 content or a link on the web. Therefore, the -- the basic document which
11 is -- which is the -- the government document has been somehow -- has
12 been probably copied and put on the -- on the web. That is as far as I
13 could found out at this point.
14 JUDGE HARHOFF: But is there a document, or is there only the
15 search engine? Because, I mean, we are probably speaking about hundreds
16 of thousands of names in that document. So I imagine that the document
17 doesn't exist as a physical document. It -- it exists as a database.
18 And what you get is, through the search engine, you get access,
19 unauthorised access, to this database.
20 Is that the way we understand it or ...
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, my -- that is completely correct. It is not
22 a document. It is a database which contains the names, the dates, and
23 the -- the relevant names of the -- of the Croatian Army units where this
24 particular person at a certain point in time served his -- his military
25 service, during period 1990 until 1995.
Page 9233
1 This database does not contain -- that is not a document. It is
2 a database and a search engine where you -- when you type the names, you
3 get the response with the name and the -- or number of the names if they
4 are the same and the dates and -- and the units which -- which are
5 referring to that particular individual.
6 JUDGE HARHOFF: The reason we discussed it is that if we were to
7 follow Mr. Hannis's suggestion that we should ask somehow the Croatian
8 Ministry of Defence to -- to tell us whether the information that can be
9 gained by using this search engine is, indeed, authentic, then the
10 question arises - and this was what we were discussing in the break -
11 whether we would have to limit ourselves to asking the government about
12 the authenticity of information relating to specific persons; or, whether
13 we could ask the government to verify -- to confirm or to -- the
14 opposite, disconfirm, unconfirm, that the database, as such, is still
15 original and had not been tampered with.
16 I don't know if -- Mr. Hannis has any idea how this can be done,
17 and who should do it, actually.
18 MR. HANNIS: I don't. But if I could raise an additional point.
19 I now have a hard copy of some of the pages that, I guess, Mr. Zecevic
20 has presented out from the database. And what it has is a name, a first
21 and last name, what appears to be a name of a unit or a component that
22 the person allegedly served with, and a date of service.
23 But it is only a name. There's no indication of the father's
24 name, the age of this person, the date of birth, where they're from. And
25 as we've seen in the region, a lot of times there are similar names.
Page 9234
1 There's several individuals with the same name. So there is really no
2 way of linking that name with the name of the person this witness has
3 talked about in a cell with. It is too tenuous, and especially given the
4 uncertainty about where this database comes from. And if somebody is
5 able, without authorisation, to copy it and put it on the Internet, I
6 suggest to you, they're also probably able to manipulate the data that is
7 in it. And it's not something that you should feel comfortable and
8 relying on at this point without some further showing.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may quickly respond.
10 I agree with what Mr. Hannis is saying, but we are bound to -- to
11 use the material that we received from the -- from the -- from the Office
12 of the Prosecutor. Neither the witness provides the -- the father's
13 name, the date of birth, the whereabouts, or any other -- or any other
14 data of that respect. So he provides with the name. He provided us with
15 the name and his nationality, and we tried to search the names.
16 That is -- as simple as that.
17 Your Honours, if I may say so, I believe the -- the -- the
18 shortcut to this -- because we don't know at this point, Maybe we might
19 need to access this database quite a few times in the future.
20 Now, what I would suggest is that we will approach the Ministry
21 or the Government of Croatia and ask if they can verify the authenticity
22 of that specific site. If they can verify the authenticity of the -- of
23 the data contained on that site is authentic or not, I believe would be a
24 shortcut how to do it. Or -- or ask the -- or ask the
25 Croatian Government to provide the whole -- the whole database, which
Page 9235
1 would definitely take some more time than ...
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: The question still remains whether it is -- it is
3 only the access to the official database that has been hacked and made
4 public or whether it is the database as such that has been hacked.
5 And if it's the database as such, it can be manipulated by -- by
6 the persons who hacked it.
7 If it's the database and a search machine that has been put on it
8 by the hackers, that's different when -- from the situation where it is
9 only the -- the access, the way to axis the official search machine and
10 the official database that would be hacked. So that's the first -- first
11 type of question.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: I -- I understand, Your Honours, but as my
13 knowledge of this only comes from the public media, I am -- I have given
14 the, I believe, the fair amount of information or basically all the
15 information that is my possession at this point, to the Trial Chamber.
16 JUDGE HALL
17 your immediate problem or question to be in terms of your -- how you
18 proceed with the cross-examination of this witness, it seems to us that
19 there would no prohibition on your framing your questions, subject of
20 course to the rules about good faith and all of that. And if, at some
21 point, we have a to return to this question of the -- this documentary
22 evidence, we will see where that leads us. But at this point I think can
23 you do no more than ask the question, such questions as you consider
24 appropriate.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand. I understand. Thank you very much,
Page 9236
1 Your Honours.
2 Your Honours, may I proceed.
3 JUDGE HALL
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Hadzovic.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Would you please confirm for me whether it's correct that you gave
8 your first statement back in August 1992, on the 11th of August, 1992
9 A. Probably.
10 Q. And that statement was given to the security authorities of the
11 army, or the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 A. At the time it was the provisional Ministry of the Interior that
13 had been formed in exile, in the exiled municipality of Doboj
14 Q. And then also to the Ministry of Interior of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina
16 you confirm that?
17 A. The Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is it
18 maybe Tesanj?
19 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it might be
20 easier if the usher gave the witness the copies of his statements to
21 refresh his memory.
22 Q. You are looking at that statement of 20th July 1995.
23 A. Yes, that was in Tesanj.
24 Q. Since you and I speak the same language, please, let's not
25 overlap.
Page 9237
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So this statement of the 20th July 1995 is your statement, isn't
3 it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Then, on the 22nd of June, 1998, before the investigating judge of
6 the cantonal court in Zenica, Safet Hadrovic, you gave another statement.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Then, on the 12th of March, 2001, you gave another statement
9 before the IC -- for the ICTY, which is now exhibited as P1296.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then, on the 11th of November, 2001, you gave another short
12 statement, in fact a supplemental statement, to the March 2001 statement;
13 correct? That should be tab 6.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then, on the 30th November, 2007, to the Centre for the
16 Investigation of War Crimes of Bosnia and Herzegovina, you gave a
17 statement which is in fact a record of questioning of a witness?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you just repeat the answer.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, finally, in April, 9 April 2010, you gave another statement
22 to the investigators of this Tribunal.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Also, on the 30th November and the 1st of December, you testified
25 before this court in the Stanisic and Simatovic case.
Page 9238
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Also, before the War Crimes Court, you testified in the
3 Predrag Kujundzic case as a prosecution witness.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In your statement, P1296, you say that, after the multi-party
6 elections in 1991, Ahmed Alicic, the SDA candidate, was appointed
7 president of the municipality.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The Doboj municipality.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You also claim in your statement that the chief the MUP was a
12 Muslim, called Hasan Hrnjadovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You said in your statement, and I suppose you can confirm, that
15 you remember how Alija Izetbegovic asked the Muslims to refuse
16 mobilization call-ups into the Yugoslav People's Army.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You say in your statement that in April 1992, you were dismissed
19 from work. That's page 3 of your statement. You can look at it. It's
20 P1296, page 3. You say:
21 "In April 1992, I was dismissed from work. I was working for a
22 small enterprise with another seven colleagues."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Hadzovic, that you were not working for an
25 enterprise. You were working for the Association of Physical Education
Page 9239
1 Organisations?
2 A. Well, that was the enterprise.
3 Q. Isn't it a fact that this organisation of physical education
4 organisations was a municipal enterprise, as you call it?
5 A. It's a regional, municipal enterprise. It provided all the
6 services for all the physical culture organisations in the Doboj area,
7 organisation and such. Organisation of events, et cetera.
8 Q. And it was financed by the municipality?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You also say that you were dismissed because you were a Muslim.
11 A. Yes. I and a Croat female colleague.
12 Q. Well, how is it possible that you were dismissed from an
13 enterprise controlled by the municipality, when the president of the
14 municipality was a Muslim?
15 A. Well, the takeover the power had already taken place, the takeover
16 by Serbs. Because they had not agreed with the referendum for the
17 separation, and they staged a putsch. They also dismissed all the
18 Muslims from the police force because the party appointments -- the party
19 appointments had not been complied with, and all these people lost their
20 positions.
21 Q. When you were answering the questions of my learned friend, you
22 said that the 3rd May was the date of, as you put it, liberation of
23 Doboj. And you were using the term ironically.
24 A. Yes. That's when Doboj was shelled. The aggression had started,
25 and Doboj was cleansed from Muslims and Croats. But there had been
Page 9240
1 preparations for that before.
2 Q. I put it to you, sir, that Ahmed Alicic, the president of the
3 municipality, continued in his position until the beginning of May.
4 A. Whether he did not, I don't know. I know exactly when I was I was
5 dismissed. The manager, Jovo Popovic, invited us for a meeting and told
6 us that it had been ordered that all Muslims and Croats be dismissed from
7 work.
8 Q. Well, it is clear to you that this is illogical. If the president
9 of the municipality and the whole municipal authority is under the
10 control of the SDA party, the Muslim national party, then how would these
11 same authorities in the municipalities dismiss Muslims because they were
12 Muslims?
13 A. In practice, they did not have any power in Doboj.
14 Q. Isn't it a fact, sir, that the commander of the JNA barracks in
15 Doboj was Colonel Cazim Hadzic, also a Muslim?
16 A. Yes, until 1993.
17 Q. We're talking about April now. If the president of the
18 municipality was a Muslim, if the chief of the SUP was a Muslim, and the
19 commander of the military garrison in Doboj was Muslim, then on what
20 basis, do you claim that they had no power?
21 A. Simply because they had been placed in those positions after the
22 elections. After that, the Serbs mutinied and refused to recognise the
23 democratically-elected authorities in Doboj, and they took over all the
24 power in Doboj for all practical purposes. And they --
25 Q. But this takeover happened on the 3rd May, didn't it?
Page 9241
1 A. It was all over by the 3rd of May. A certain amount of
2 organisation was needed to take over.
3 Q. It is a fact that parts of Doboj, such as Carsija and Tvrdjava,
4 the fortress, populated the mainly by Muslims, were under the control of
5 the Green Berets and the Patriotic League, already at the beginning of
6 1992?
7 A. I don't know about that. There were no Green Berets in Doboj, and
8 there was no Patriotic League.
9 Q. But you will remember, won't you, that there were nightguards,
10 check-points in those neighbourhoods, where even the police or any other
11 official authority had no access. And those check-points were manned by
12 the Green Berets, armed, and members of the Patriotic League, also armed.
13 You will remember that.
14 A. The check-points existed at the entrance to the Carsija and the
15 exit from Carsija, and they were manned by local citizens. They were
16 neither Green Berets or members of any Patriotic League. Those were
17 self-organised citizens who stood guard against a possible attack,
18 because, by that time, there had already appeared in town reservists and
19 all kinds of armed men with cockades and similar emblems, and Muslims
20 were afraid of being killed.
21 Q. I don't want to interrupt you, but my time is limited. You said
22 all of that in your statement. Just give me more concise answers,
23 please.
24 So, at these entry and exit check-points in Carsija that were
25 manned by the local residents, were those local residents armed?
Page 9242
1 A. Yes. They had shotguns and pistols.
2 Q. Very well. Isn't it true that on the 3rd of May, the commander,
3 Cazim Hadzic, the Doboj garrison commander, issued an order for those
4 paramilitary units, the Green Berets and the Patriotic League, and he
5 called them paramilitary units, to submit and surrender those illegally
6 possessed weapons?
7 A. I don't know about that. All I know --
8 Q. All right. You don't know.
9 Isn't it true, and do you remember that on that particular day,
10 an ultimatum was issued pursuant to Cazim Hadzic's order, a Muslim
11 colonel, for the JNA [as interpreted] to surrender weapons on the 3rd of
12 May by 1800 hours?
13 A. On the 3rd of May, 1992, Slobodan Karagic drove through Doboj, a
14 member of the SDS
15 followed.
16 Q. You will surely remember that during that afternoon an armed clash
17 occurred which was the motive for the JNA for opening --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Preparing and
19 targeting certain locations in Tvrdjava and Carsija as military targets.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were only guards in Carsija.
21 This ultimatum was to surrender weapons until 1600 hours. It was
22 announced through the megaphone. And then without any notification,
23 artillery fire was opened on Dramija [phoen], Gradina, et cetera.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You were in Doboj on that day, weren't you?
Page 9243
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. And you hadn't heard that there was an armed conflict that
3 preceded artillery fire of certain targets in Carsija and Tvrdjava?
4 A. No I hadn't, even though I lived in Carsija. All I heard was the
5 artillery fire coming from the tanks and targeting the mosque. Later on,
6 there was shooting. There was exchange of fire, but I don't know who was
7 involved.
8 Q. Very well. Mr. Hadzic [sic] --
9 A. Hadzovic.
10 Q. I apologise, Mr. Hadzovic. I have a problem trying to establish
11 exactly or, at least, approximately the dates, because in your statements
12 you have provided different information, which is probably understandable
13 after such a long time.
14 Therefore, I will try to recap this, and we shall try to
15 establish the real situation.
16 The fact is that you were taken for the first time to the MUP
17 building on the 6th of May, 1992.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And on that occasion, you were interviewed by
20 Branislav Petricevic. You spoke about that on page 14, lines 6 to 8. Is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in the course of that interview, I suppose that he asked you
24 whether you had some illegal weapons, rifle, an automatic rifle, or
25 something of the sort; whether you were a member of the Green Berets, the
Page 9244
1 Patriotic League, or any other military formation. Is that right?
2 A. No. Petri and I - I mean Branislav Petricevic - knew each other
3 very well. And he knew very well that I hadn't taken part or belonged to
4 either Green Berets or the Patriotic League or any formation. He knew I
5 had a licenced weapon issued to me within my duties, because I was a
6 cashier, and this was issued to me by MUP.
7 There was no record made. All he told to me was, They keep
8 bringing people in, and we don't know what to do with them.
9 Q. Sir, isn't it true that on that day you returned home after 5.00?
10 A. Yes, on that day.
11 Q. So you went there for the first time on the 6th -- on the 3rd --
12 or, rather, 6th May. You had this interview with Branislav Petricevic,
13 and you returned home sometime in the afternoon of the 6th of May, after
14 5.00. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. After that, soldiers with -- with red berets, brought you in or
17 arrested you, let's say, on the 8th of May; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On the 8th of May, you were taken to the prison that you described
20 today.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You spent three days in prison.
23 A. It was three days and two nights.
24 Q. And you were released within the legal term, which is 72 hours;
25 that is to say, on the 11th of May.
Page 9245
1 A. Yes, on the 11th of May.
2 Q. And then, on the 12th of June, once again, the soldiers with red
3 berets arrested you again, along with your brother.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, the second time around, on the 8th of May, when you were
6 arrested, did Branislav Petricevic tell you then that your brother was
7 already in cell number 7?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So that second time around, on the 8th of May, you also talked to
10 Branislav Petricevic.
11 A. Yes. He seemed to be the duty officer.
12 Q. So your brother was already in prison on the 8th, and he was
13 released, together with you, on the 11th.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then, on the 12th of June, both of you together were arrested
16 by these soldiers with the red berets.
17 A. Can I explain that.
18 Q. Go ahead.
19 A. My brother has an apartment in a different part of town. In the
20 month of May, since his family was not with him - they were away - he
21 came to stay with me. I lived in our joint family house, and my
22 14-year-old child was there also. We were staying there together.
23 Now when this general purge of Carsija neighbourhood began, we
24 were both rounded up, and the minor child remained at home.
25 Q. All right. But after that, your son went to stay with some
Page 9246
1 relatives, if I remember one of your statements well.
2 A. I was separated from his mother, and my ex-wife was living with
3 her mother in town; and in the divorce, the son stayed with me, and the
4 daughter went to live with the mother. So my son went to join them.
5 Q. Both those times when you spoke with Branislav Petricevic, on the
6 6th and the 8th of May, he was quite decent when he talked to you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. On the 12th, when you were taken away, when you were
9 rounded up by these soldiers with the red berets along with your brother,
10 you were placed in a hangar.
11 A. Yes. We were driven out of our home, into the street. There we
12 were beaten up with baseball bats. We were pushed in the back of trucks
13 -- sorry, buses, in the luggage compartments, and we were taken to that
14 warehouse in Usora.
15 Q. Let's go back to the time when you were detained, on the 8th of
16 May.
17 On page 22 of today's transcript, the Prosecutor showed you a
18 record of detainees. It's P1299, MFI
19 A. I remember.
20 Q. Let me give you an exact reference. On page 22, while looking at
21 that document -- do you remember this document?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. You said, speaking of page 1, everyone was Muslim or Croat. And
24 you confirmed that.
25 A. Yes.
Page 9247
1 Q. And then the Prosecutor said you had seen the document two weeks
2 prior, and he asked you to confirm that all the names there were Muslims,
3 Bosniaks, and Croats, and you said, Yes, there were only Muslims and
4 Croats.
5 You remember that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I would ask you to look at page 13 in e-court. It's sequential
8 number 290, and also 305.
9 Can you see them?
10 A. Which number?
11 Q. 290. Ilija Crnagorac. Does it sound to you like a Muslim or a
12 Croat name?
13 A. Montenegrin. I mean, Serbian.
14 Q. The same is true of Ilija Mioc, 305.
15 A. Well that could be a Croat.
16 Q. Let's look at page 15 in e-court. Numbers --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, could we have that on the screen,
18 please.
19 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I asked for -- we commented the page 13. Now
20 I ask for page 15 of this document.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
22 MR. ZECEVIC: We referred to -- to 290 and 305.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] 290 and 305.
24 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Then the witness --
Page 9248
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry.
3 Didn't the witness comment on the names of the people he knew,
4 The one -- the one marked in red?
5 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours --
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Or do we have -- perhaps you could clarify with
7 the witness whether he is -- his evidence is that he checked all the
8 names and that all the names are Serb -- and are Muslims or Croats, or
9 that he only was referring to the -- the people he knew.
10 MR. ZECEVIC: Mm-hm.
11 Q. [Interpretation] You heard the question of the Judge. Maybe I
12 wasn't paying enough attention, but I understood your answer on page 22,
13 when my learned friend was questioning you, as saying that this entire
14 record contains only Bosniak and Muslim -- sorry, Bosniak and Croat
15 names. The Judge is asking, however, if you are referring to only those
16 people you knew?
17 A. To the people I knew.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
19 [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Speaking of names, you mentioned -- in fact, on the 12th of June,
21 when you were placed in the hangar, you described the guards as the
22 military police, commanded by Zlatan Krekic?
23 A. Zlatan Krekic was a reserve policeman. Of the civilian police, I
24 mean.
25 Q. Sir, your statement of the 20th of July 199 -- that's tab 2.
Page 9249
1 You say on page 1 -- will you please look at it. It's tab 2.
2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that's document
3 1D03-2892.
4 Q. 1D03-2892.
5 A. Yes, I have found it.
6 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would say that -- well, what I'm
7 looking for is on page 2 in English and page 1 in the B/C/S version.
8 Yes.
9 Q. This is what you say on page 1. I think the penultimate sentence:
10 "As far as I can remember," and that was, I would like to remind
11 you, the 20th of July when you gave this statement, "the security of that
12 part of the hangar was provided by the military police, and there a man
13 in charge, was Zlatan Krekic from Doboj. We, the detainees, were not
14 beaten in this hangar," et cetera.
15 Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes, I remember very well.
17 Q. Sir, you confirmed this same allegation in your statement given in
18 1998, which is 1D03-2873.
19 In your 2001 statement, you reiterated the assertion that you had
20 been secured by the military police led by Zlatan Krekic, as their
21 commander.
22 A. May I explain what I meant by that answer.
23 We were secured by the military police, and we were secured by the
24 military reservists. Krekic, as a civilian policeman, was in charge
25 there. So one can clearly see that we were secured by the military
Page 9250
1 police, but he was in charge of them, not -- he was no military
2 policeman. I know that he had always been a civilian policeman.
3 Q. All right. It's clear now.
4 During your stay in the hangar, you said in your statements that
5 you were treated fairly. You also added that the conditions were not
6 good, but that they treated you in a correct manner, and there was no
7 particular harassment or maltreatment.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If I understand correctly, what you said on page 25 of today's
10 transcript, you spent time in the hangar until the 19th of June.
11 A. Precisely so.
12 Q. And then, on the 19th of June, you were transferred to the place
13 called Percin's Disco; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. May I explain how it happened?
15 Q. Yes, we have the details in your statement. I'm interested in
16 certain facts, but, nevertheless, whenever you feel like providing a
17 longer answer, please feel free to do so.
18 Sir, this disco, Percin's Disco, was secured by the soldiers with
19 red berets; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you said that at that location, and this Percin's Disco,
22 people were physically abused. The detainees, I mean.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On the 29th of June, you talked again with the policemen. Do you
25 remember that? Or, rather, with the SJB Doboj inspectors.
Page 9251
1 A. Yes. They came in front of the hangar with a view to taking
2 statements from us. They were in plain clothes. And they were just
3 normal inspectors or investigators.
4 Q. And you were interviewed again by the same Branislav Petricevic,
5 whom you had met twice in May.
6 A. Yes. I went to him purposefully because I knew him well. I
7 preferred to be interviewed by him rather than by someone else.
8 Q. And you spoke today about an inspector called Dujkovic, hit one of
9 the interviewees and your impression was that the two had known each
10 other from before and probably had some unsettled score, and that he
11 actually hit him with a shovel on the head. You said that on transcript
12 26, lines 12 to -- 12 to 20.
13 Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where did that happen? In front of the hangar?
16 A. There's a large area in front of the hangar, because there is a
17 disco, there is a hangar, and there was this petrol station that was
18 demolished during the war. These investigators put tables in a circular
19 shape and groups of ten each were let out to approach the tables and be
20 interviewed by them.
21 Q. Very well. And You saw that with your own eyes. You were present
22 when this man Dujkovic abused this detainee?
23 A. Yes, because it was my turn to go out at the time.
24 Q. If I remember correctly your previous statements,
25 Branislav Petricevic talked with you again in a fair and decent manner,
Page 9252
1 and you were not maltreated by him in any way whatsoever.
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. Sir, tell me, this attack by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as
4 you say, took place on the 12th of July; right?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. Do you remember at what time approximately it took place?
7 A. Let's say 6.30 or 7.30 in the late afternoon.
8 Q. And when were you taken out of the Percin's Disco? Because you
9 were at the disco at the time. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So approximately at what time were you taken out?
12 A. We were taken out at around 7.30. And the attack started at
13 around 5.00 in the -- or 4.00 in the afternoon. Shells were landing
14 around the camp, which is the Percin's Disco. And then at around 6.30
15 they came and threw out the 50 of us.
16 Q. But it was still daylight because that was in the summertime.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The 50 of you that were collected, the 50 who were closest to the
19 door, that was done by the soldiers again wearing red berets. And I
20 think that you said that your impression was that they were under the
21 command of someone who was called either Crnagorac or Golub?
22 A. Golub.
23 Q. You mean to say that he had two nicknames?
24 A. Yes. Crnagorac was his nickname that his soldiers used to address
25 him, and we used to call him Crnogorac because of his Montenegrin accent.
Page 9253
1 When I say "we," I mean the detainees.
2 Q. I understand. In your statement, you said that when this clash
3 took place on the 12th of July, i.e., the attack by the ABiH army, some
4 people from Knin appeared on the spot. You mentioned that in your
5 statement. Those were units that had come from Knin?
6 A. Yes. That's why we called them people in Knin. They were
7 strangers. And they used to call themselves Knindzas.
8 Q. Very well. Now, when this man called either Golub or Crnagorac
9 took you out, you said that you were taken to a school where you were
10 ordered to take off your clothes up to the waist. And they continued to
11 lead you; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. Preda's Wolves were there, which is another organisation.
13 They lined us up in files numbering ten each. We waited some ten or
14 15 minutes. The man called Golub killed one man from our file,
15 Drago Kalem, by shooting him in the back of his head. He wanted to make
16 an example to the rest of us.
17 Q. In other words, Golub shot him dead, but in addition to Golub and
18 his red berets, there were Preda's Wolves, who were also a paramilitary
19 organisation; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. Today, and as well as in some of your previous
22 statements, you spoke about the moment when you saw a certain
23 Milutin Blaskovic. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And in that context you said that Milutin Blaskovic, and you said
Page 9254
1 today as well, that he was some kind of executive in the SUP.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When we say "SUP
4 Doboj; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That was the old name used before the multi-party elections,
7 because later the secretariat was changed into the ministry, so SUP
8 became MUP.
9 A. I'm still using the term SUP
10 Interior, not the MUP.
11 Q. I'm sure that you're aware, because you knew Milutin Blaskovic of
12 Doboj, that he had retired as an employee of the Ministry of the Interior
13 back in 1991.
14 A. I don't know about that.
15 Q. And in the place where you saw Milutin Blaskovic was also a
16 certain Predrag Kujundzic, who was the commander of Preda's Wolves and
17 the man called Golub, who afterwards killed this Croat man, after you had
18 been lined up.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said that you had overheard a conversation between the retired
21 police officer by the name of Milutin Blaskovic. Tell me, I have seen a
22 couple of statements in which you say that he was wearing a helmet and an
23 automatic rifle. Is that what you said?
24 A. Yes. But I think you should also know one more thing and that is
25 that all the retired police officers reactivated themselves when the war
Page 9255
1 started, regardless of whether they were retired or not, even if they
2 were of 75 years of age or similar.
3 Q. In your statement, and let's start from the beginning. I think
4 under tab 3 is your statement given on the 22nd of June 1998.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That's 1D03-2873.
6 Q. On page 7 in e-court, and that's on page 6 in your set of
7 documents, paragraph 1. That is, tab 3, page 6, paragraph 1. And that's
8 page 7 in e-court in B/C/S.
9 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, one page beforehand.
10 I'm sorry. I suppose the same applies to the English version. We should
11 go one page back.
12 It's somewhere in the middle of the page in the English and near
13 the top of the page in B/C/S.
14 Q. You say here:
15 "Next to an APC
16 automatic rifle, and I know he was one of the leading men" --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot find the
18 paragraph that the counsel is reading. Could be he more specific.
19 JUDGE HALL
20 paragraph, and they ask for your assistance.
21 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] As far as the B/C/S is concerned,
22 it's the second sentence which begins: "At the cross-roads at
23 Klope [phoen] I noticed," ending in "et cetera."
24 And in the English version, that's fourth or fifth sentence in
25 paragraph 3, which begins: "When we came to the intersection, we were
Page 9256
1 told to strip to the waist. And then at the intersection I noticed
2 Milutin Blaskovic standing near an armoured personnel carrier. Therefore
3 I hope that they have managed to locate it."
4 Q. "So, at one point, I clearly heard Milutin Blaskovic telling
5 Crnogorac that he received approval from Andrija Bjelosevic, the chief
6 the CSB
7 Do you remember that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is that what you heard?
10 A. I heard him saying that on the Motorola, but once he finished that
11 conversation on the Motorola two-way radio, he said that we he had
12 received approval to set up a human shield from Andrija Bjelosevic, but
13 that we should treat you humanely.
14 Q. Let's just clear this up a bit.
15 You were standing relatively close to this Blaskovic man?
16 A. He was standing right before me.
17 Q. You were able to hear what he was saying.
18 A. Not only I. All of us.
19 Q. Were you able to hear what the other person was saying on the
20 other end of the Motorola conversation?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So, in fact, you did not hear what the other person said.
23 A. No, I did not.
24 Q. Nor do you know who the other person was, to whom
25 Milutin Blaskovic was speaking?
Page 9257
1 A. No.
2 Q. And you say that he said to this man, Crnagorac, Montenegrin, that
3 he had allegedly received approval from Andrija Bjelosevic, chief of the
4 CSB
5 shield," but to be treated humanely.
6 A. We had already been taken out of the camp by at that time, so they
7 didn't need to take us out. We were standing right there, ready to be
8 taken somewhere, to be used as a human shield, and that's where this
9 conversation was taking place, while we were standing on the grounds.
10 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, that's precisely why I'm asking you this, because
11 you just confirmed, looking at the previous statement from 1998. You
12 say:
13 "I clearly heard Milutin Blaskovic issuing order to this
14 Crnagorac that he had received approval from Andrija Bjelosevic, chief of
15 the CSB
16 Whereas now you are saying, Yes, I heard this, and then this
17 other person mentioned, Yes, human shields, but to be treated humanely.
18 A. I don't know if the record is inaccurate. But when we were taken
19 out of the hangar, we were marched to that school building, where we were
20 stripped to the waist. The army was already attacking, approaching, and
21 that's where we were heard this. Now who exactly, up from above, gave
22 that order for to us to be taken out, I don't know.
23 Q. But, sir, what exactly did you hear Blaskovic say to this
24 Crnagorac man?
25 A. To go forward with this human shield.
Page 9258
1 Q. And to treat them humanely.
2 A. Yes. And that sounded so ludicrous to us. But he said that.
3 And, at that moment, this man took out a gun and shot this man among us
4 dead. If that is being humane, then I really don't know.
5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Witness, could you just clarify one little
6 thing.
7 Which building was it that you were supposed to shield, and what
8 was that building hiding, or what was going on in that building? Why was
9 it necessary to put up a human shield towards that particular building?
10 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe -- I believe the witness's testimony is
11 somewhat different. They were not shielding the building. But maybe he
12 can explain better than I.
13 JUDGE HARHOFF: Okay. So what were you shielding?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were not shielding a building.
15 Since the Army of BH was attacking, these paramilitary units and these
16 men who were driving us put us ahead of them, as they were marching, if
17 you understand. We were like a shield, to be killed first, if
18 anything --
19 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you.
20 MR. ZECEVIC:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I'm really sorry, but we have to make this
22 as clear as possible, because there is a series of your statements.
23 Can you possibly remember now, did you really hear this Blaskovic
24 man use the term "human shield"?
25 A. He said, and I remember it as it -- as if it happened yesterday.
Page 9259
1 When this Motorola conversation was over, he turned to Crnagorac, and he
2 said, Andrija Bjelosevic approved for the human shields to be taken out.
3 And they should be treated humanely. That's all that was heard; that's
4 all he said.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 this point?
7 MR. ZECEVIC: That would be actually perfect Your Honour, because
8 I just need to gather my notes now. Thank you very much.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
12 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, while the witness is ushered, there's
13 one intervention in the transcript. 42, 22, I believe it is recorded
14 wrongly. My question: Isn't it true, and you remember that on that
15 particular day an ultimatum was issued pursuant to Cazim Hadzic's order,
16 a Muslim colonel, for the JNA to surrender weapons.
17 It should be: For the Green Berets and Patriotic League to
18 surrender weapons on 3rd of May by 1800 hours.
19 And then the witness answers: On the 3rd of May somebody
20 Drove with a megaphone and ...
21 So instead of JNA it should be Patriotic League and Green Berets.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Because the previous -- previously we are
24 talking about the Green Berets and Patriotic League and their weapons.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
Page 9260
1 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can we continue?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. ZECEVIC: May I, Your Honours?
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Let's try again to sum up.
8 If I understood you well, when we discussed this event,
9 Milutin Blaskovic was holding a Motorola and this short-range,
10 short-wave, hand-held radio?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you told me a moment ago that could you not hear what the
13 person on the other end of the line was telling Blaskovic.
14 A. Right.
15 Q. You were not able to hear it?
16 A. No, I was not.
17 Q. And then Blaskovic said, Use them as human shields but treat them
18 humanely.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Doesn't that sound contradictory to you, a contradiction in terms?
21 A. It's ridiculous.
22 Q. I agree. Do you remember that Blaskovic, because you were
23 listening to what he was saying to Crnagorac, mentioned
24 Andrija Bjelosevic by name and surname?
25 A. Yes.
Page 9261
1 Q. But you told me previously that you were not able to hear
2 Andrija Bjelosevic himself or anyone else.
3 A. No, I was not.
4 Q. Let us look at your statement of 30th November 2007.
5 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's 1D03-2900.
6 Q. A record of your statement given to the centre for the
7 investigation of war crimes; tab 5.
8 Do you see that? War crimes investigation centre, the ministry
9 of security, witness statement -- sorry, record of witness interview.
10 On page 5 of this document in B/C/S - page 5 in B/C/S, please -
11 in a passage at the top, you refer to this incident. It's practically
12 the third sentence, or the fourth sentence, from the top.
13 You say:
14 "I could hear clearly Blaskovic calling Andrija Bjelosevic on the
15 radio and telling him that the soldiers had taken out the civilians and
16 how to treat them. I heard Andrija answering, Take them forward and act
17 in a civilised manner."
18 A. That must be wrong, because I was not able to hear his voice on
19 the Motorola. That must have been said by the other person.
20 Q. Let me try to find the exact passage in English.
21 I think it's the previous page in English, towards the bottom.
22 That's it. At the bottom.
23 This is a bit different. There is a slight discrepancy. I allow
24 for various interpretation, but it is -- it is a bit different from what
25 we were discussing now.
Page 9262
1 You say here that he said that the soldiers had taken the
2 civilians out and he was asking how to proceed. But you say that you
3 heard Andrija respond, Take them forward and act in a civilian manner.
4 A. I didn't know his voice, and I couldn't know who was talking at
5 the other enter of the Motorola connection to be able to recognise
6 Andrija. No, I was listening to the other man saying that he had been
7 told to take us forward.
8 Q. I'm sorry?
9 A. I had never spoken to Andrija Bjelosevic to be able to tell that
10 it was his voice. So, no, I said Blaskovic had said that Andrija had
11 said that we should be taken forward and treated in a civilised manner.
12 Q. Well, I asked you a moment ago whether you heard the term "human
13 shield" being used, and it turns out from this that it was only said to
14 take you forward.
15 A. They said, Lead the human shields.
16 Q. I find it puzzling that when you were giving that statement to the
17 war crimes investigations centre, you didn't say it in that exact
18 language, Take them as human shields forward.
19 A. Take them forward and act in a civilised manner. That's what
20 Andrija must have said, because Blaskovic was saying it to this Crnagorac
21 man. Blaskovic said, Take them forward and act in a civilised manner.
22 And after that sign was given, we started moving forward.
23 Q. Well, if I understand you know, Blaskovic did not use the words
24 "human shields." He said, Take them forward.
25 A. We were standing there. We were stripped to the waist, and we
Page 9263
1 were waiting for the order to move forward, as a human shield.
2 Q. Concerning this incident, you gave evidence -- or, rather,
3 statements twice. And then, when questioned by my learned friend, you
4 repeated it in a similar way. However, in your first statement, in 1992,
5 and in this statement, which is an exhibit here, 1296, in your interview
6 with OTP investigators, you did not mention it at all.
7 So neither in 1992, just two or three months -- or, rather, a
8 month after the incident, you did not mention it; nor did you mention it
9 in 2001, when you were giving your first official statement to the OTP.
10 A. What did I fail to mention?
11 Q. You failed to mention this incident involving Milutin Blaskovic
12 and Blaskovic's conversation with someone. You did mention the human
13 shields and the whole tragic episode. But this particular detail of this
14 conversation involving Milutin Blaskovic and the other person and the
15 whole context, you didn't mention that in 1992 or 2001.
16 A. There's one thing. I gave a whole series of statements, and
17 everyone who was interviewing me was looking for something specific.
18 When I was giving a statement in -- on Kujundzic, they were using the
19 term "human shield," and all the talk was about human shields. When I
20 was here last, there was no mention of human shields. I was just
21 answering the questions of the Prosecutor. They were concentrating on
22 something specific, and this episode wasn't even mentioned.
23 Q. I understand your answer, but there is still a big question mark
24 in my mind. This statement you gave to the War Crimes Investigations
25 Centre and another statement you gave to the OTP, and yet you mentioned
Page 9264
1 -- you failed to mention such an important incident.
2 A. Well, it all depends on the questions asked and what the
3 investigator was concentrating on.
4 Q. Sir, I put it to you that Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic, on the 12th of
5 July, didn't talk to Mr. Blaskovic; nor was he able to do that, because
6 on that day he was in Belgrade
7 Ministry of the Interior of Republika Srpska.
8 A. Then that that is Blaskovic's problem. This is what he told
9 Crnagorac. I don't know where Andrija Bjelosevic was on that day.
10 Q. In your statement, you have confirmed that you hadn't seen
11 Andrija Bjelosevic and some other people throughout the whole period of
12 your detention in Doboj; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Sir, one more thing. Today, while you were being examined by the
15 Prosecutor, you mentioned two detainees. Mr. Karlo Grgic, a Croat from
16 Doboj, and Dr. Ilija Tipura. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. As I understand, you said that Karlo Grgic is still missing.
19 A. That's what I heard. I seldom go to Doboj, and I have never seen
20 him again. And I heard from other people that he has disappeared.
21 Q. Can you please remind me what you said about Ilija Tipura?
22 A. I said the same thing. I found my brother's body, and I buried
23 -- and I dug it out in 2001.
24 Q. You're talking about your late brother Zulfo.
25 A. Yes.
Page 9265
1 Q. I'm not asking you about him. I'm asking you about
2 Dr. Ilija Tipura.
3 A. I have never heard about him being alive, nor was he ever found.
4 Q. I heard some information that I would like to put to you in
5 relation to Dr. Ilija Tipura. However, since I announced this to the
6 Prosecution, they were kind enough to make certain checks, and my learned
7 friend provided me with a document which, undoubtedly, I can conclude,
8 and I will tell you what I have concluded. And that is that
9 Mr. Ilija Tipura, on 9th September 1992, was transferred to hospital in
10 Doboj with a serious diagnosis. And then, on the 12th of September, he
11 was transferred to the medical centre in Banja Luka where he underwent a
12 surgery on the 13th. And, unfortunately, he did not survive the
13 operation.
14 A. I don't know anything about that.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. ZECEVIC: I have no further questions for this witness.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zecevic, you went through three, if not four,
19 previous statements of the witness. These statements, unless I'm wrong,
20 are not yet in evidence.
21 Do you tender them?
22 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, if it will assist the Trial Chamber, I
23 would --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just -- I just ask.
25 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, I would like to tender it, yes.
Page 9266
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I --
2 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, I was -- I don't have anything against
3 because the witness confirmed that those are his statements. He
4 confirmed the contents of it. I just -- I felt that maybe the
5 Trial Chamber would not positively at my attempt to add some more
6 documentation to the body of the evidence here, but ...
7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If I may assist the Court. Your Honours, I
8 think we have approximately five statements, two transcripts of previous
9 testimonies. I'm not sure if you want to be burdened of all of that or
10 only the portions that Mr. Zecevic put through. There there's no
11 objection on the basis of it. But the witness has answered to the
12 questions, I believe.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE HALL
15 seeking to tender them or what? Because it seems -- it seems that it is
16 unnecessary in the sense of the witness -- we have the witness's oral
17 testimony about the relevant passages.
18 MR. ZECEVIC: That is my -- that is my feeling also. But if it
19 will assist Your Honours -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
20 JUDGE HALL
21 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE HALL
23 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:
25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, I have only one topic to discuss
Page 9267
1 with the -- it's a matter of principle.
2 You can leave it if these are the previous testimonies -- witness
3 -- yeah? Thank you.
4 In fact, Your Honours, I will -- I will just explore one
5 particular issue with this witness, which he mentioned actually this
6 afternoon, so hopefully it will be very, very short. But this is a
7 living matter. We never know.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Hadzovic. I am the
11 Defence counsel of Mr. Stojan Zupljanin. My name is Igor Pantelic.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. This is not going take long. I know that you are tired, and I
14 would personally like to offer my condolences to whatever you went
15 through during that period in 1992.
16 A. Thank you.
17 Q. I think your answer "thank you" wasn't recorded. If you can speak
18 up.
19 A. Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, you mentioned today, at the beginning of your
21 testimony, the events of the 6th of May, when soldiers with red berets
22 came to your house, and when your Serb neighbour told you, because he was
23 from Banja Luka, that he knew some of them.
24 Is that what you said?
25 A. Yes, it is.
Page 9268
1 Q. Can you please tell me the name of that neighbour of yours.
2 A. Dragan Zecevic, originally from Banja Luka.
3 Q. I suppose he still lives in Doboj.
4 A. He lived in Doboj. He died last year, but his wife and children
5 still live in Doboj.
6 Q. I suppose that he lived in the same house -- or, rather, that they
7 live in the same house where they used to live in 1992.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, recently, or, more precisely, on the 9th of April of this
10 year in Zagreb
11 correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you normally follow these trials on the Internet or maybe in
14 any other way?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. On that occasion, did the investigator tell you what was
17 particularly the subject of this trial, who the defendants were and what
18 the charges were?
19 A. No, they didn't.
20 Q. In all your statements given since 1992 that you have in your
21 hands at the moment, in 1995, 2001, 2005, 1998, and, finally, in 2009 at
22 the trial here in the Tribunal in the Stanisic/Simatovic case, and,
23 finally, in April 2010, which is virtually ten days ago, you say that, on
24 that occasion, soldiers with red berets come, and, you say, that they
25 were members of the army.
Page 9269
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In your last statement given in April, on the 9th of April, 2010
3 in Zagreb
4 before; is that right?
5 A. No.
6 Q. But Michael Koehler suggested to you that those soldiers with the
7 red berets were from Banja Luka.
8 A. No, he didn't. I saw the Prosecutor for the first time in Zagreb
9 when he came to attend the interview.
10 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, the point is as follows: Not in a single statement
11 of yours since 1992, have you mentioned your neighbour Zecevic.
12 A. Well, that may be the case, because he was not relevant. Nobody
13 asked me about that. I was asked to provide a huge amount of
14 information.
15 Q. But, in all those statements that you gave, you never mentioned
16 the fact that these soldiers were from Banja Luka. You did that for the
17 first time in April 2010. Yes or no?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In your testimony, in the Stanisic and Simatovic trial conducted
20 before this Tribunal, and that was on the 30th of November, 2002 [sic],
21 on page 228 [as interpreted] when you were cross-examined by my learned
22 friend Jordash - I think he is Stanisic's defence counsel, you said the
23 following, I'm going read it now --
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Mr. Pantelic, the page number has not been
25 recorded probably in the Stanisic/Simatovic case.
Page 9270
1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] The page is 2282.
2 Q. On that page you are practically recounting an incident which took
3 place on the 12th of June, 1992, and your response reads as follows, with
4 regard to the local soldiers who, along with the military reservists
5 conducted some searches. And this is what you said. I will have to read
6 it in English because the transcript is in English. Please listen to it.
7 This is your response:
8 "A group appeared, and they looked like men from Krajina, men
9 from Banja Luka. They wore red berets but none of them were locals.
10 None of them were from Doboj."
11 [Interpretation] Now, this is my question: Number one, you did
12 not recognise any people from Doboj in this group, and on that basis you
13 concluded that they were not locals from Doboj.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, how do you know, or how did you know that people from Krajina
16 looked like? How did you know that they had come from the Krajina, from
17 Banja Luka?
18 A. When we were picked up, people talked about this amongst
19 themselves, the detainee, because nobody knew them. Somebody said that
20 the people from Krajina had come. Whether they were from Banja Luka or
21 Prijedor, I don't know.
22 Q. Maybe from Knin even.
23 A. Yes, possibly.
24 Q. So, to recap, you don't know that for sure. This is information
25 -- second-hand information, or hearsay, pure guess-work; is that correct?
Page 9271
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you arrived here in The Hague, I suppose that my learned
3 friend from the Prosecution conducted a short interview with you prior to
4 your giving evidence; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And he asked you some questions probably about the topics that are
7 going to be discussed here.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he practically suggested to you to mention this event
10 involving your neighbour Zecevic and the men from Banja Luka.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Well, you see, I cannot think other than this -- well, actually,
13 let me ask you something completely different.
14 In April 1992, you were in Doboj.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall when was the national holiday of Bajram in 1992?
17 A. It was in May. The 1st, the 2nd, and the 3rd of May.
18 Q. When was it in 2000?
19 A. You're asking me too much.
20 Q. How about 1997?
21 A. I don't know. I'm not exactly ...
22 Q. Well, this is not very important. I was just trying to test your
23 memory. I think that Bajram was in April in 1992, on or about the 15th
24 of April. Would you allow for that possibility?
25 A. I still think that it was in May. That's what I think. I am not
Page 9272
1 very religious, actually. Therefore, I'm not paying much attention.
2 Q. Since 1992, until 2010, you never mentioned your neighbour from
3 Doboj who purportedly told you that the soldiers had come from
4 Banja Luka, which you only did the first time in 2010. I have feeling
5 that somebody had suggested to that to you. Am I right?
6 A. No, you're not right. It is possible for me to remember
7 something, even after 20 years, you're completely wrong about this.
8 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, you can hardly remember what took place five years
9 ago. You have demonstrated that to a certain extent. So how do you
10 explain this evolution in your memory that led to the fact that in 1992
11 you did not mention your neighbour Zecevic and the fact that he told you
12 that those red berets from Banja Luka?
13 Tell me how come that only now you have raised this issue. You
14 are under oath here.
15 A. I am under an oath here. The Prosecutor never mentioned that. It
16 just occurred to me because suddenly I remember this conversation with
17 Dragan, we are great friends. A man came asking for -- for water. He
18 said, We are hailing from the same area. I am from Banja Luka. You
19 needn't be afraid.
20 So when I came home, Zecevic told me the men were from
21 Banja Luka. This is what I remembered. I might have remembered a
22 million other details as well.
23 Q. But, Mr. Hadzovic, how do you explain the fact -- but let me ask
24 you this first.
25 Have you ever talked to anyone from AID, the Muslim secret
Page 9273
1 service?
2 A. No. I don't know, I talked to the MUP, and there are my
3 statements to the MUP.
4 Q. Was that the only time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, I'm very sorry to have to say this, but I think, and
7 it's my impression on the basis of these facts that, concerning this
8 little detail that you came up with for the first time today, 19 years
9 later, you are not telling the truth, as far as your neighbour Zecevic is
10 concerned.
11 Do you agree with me?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. PANTELIC: I have no further questions.
15 JUDGE HALL
16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Just a few matters, Your Honours.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:
18 Q. Mr. Hadzovic, I'm going to go back to the questions that were put
19 to you by my learned friend Mr. Zecevic earlier today.
20 At page 41 of today's transcript, Mr. Zecevic was asking you
21 questions in relation to Cazim Hadzic.
22 Do you remember those questions?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And at page 41, line 2 - and I should go back to that page to get
25 the exact quote - you answered to one of his questions and said -- he
Page 9274
1 said:
2 "Isn't it a fact that the commander of the JNA barracks in Doboj
3 was Colonel Cazim Hadzic, also a Muslim?"
4 And you said -- it is recorded here:
5 "Yes, until 1993."
6 Is that date correct?
7 A. Yes. Yes, he was loyal to the Yugoslav People's Army, and he
8 remained in Doboj.
9 Q. Very well.
10 Questions were asked to you about the surrender of weapons, in
11 relation to the order issued by Mr. Hadzic. And then you answered that
12 this Slobodan was going around with a megaphone in town.
13 Do you remember that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. There's no -- there's no objection that you're actually referring
16 to the same person in your statement. But can you just confirm, what is
17 the last name of Slobodan with the megaphone?
18 A. Karagic, nicknamed Karaga.
19 Q. Was Karaga a member of any political party?
20 A. Yes, the SDS
21 Q. And how would you describe Mr. Karagic?
22 A. You mean his physical appearance?
23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I don't see the basis for these
24 questions. Mr. Karagic was not in any event a subject or an issue in my
25 cross-examination.
Page 9275
1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is it not about Mr. Karagic, although it
2 appears to be. It is in relation to this order that Mr. Hadzic would
3 have issued about the surrender of weapons.
4 JUDGE HALL
5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:
6 Q. Now, to go back to my question, Mr. Hadzovic, just about
7 Mr. Karagic. Who was he? What was he in Doboj? Did he have any
8 positions?
9 A. No. He was a semi-criminal. He owned a cafe or something. He
10 had training in a trade, but he joined the SDS right at the beginning.
11 He led some rallies. Anyway, he was involved with the SDS, and I don't
12 know what he did later or what positions he held.
13 Q. And Mr. Zecevic was asking you about these orders for surrender of
14 weapons issued by Mr. Cazim Hadzic. How would Mr. Karagic be responding
15 to such orders? Was he in any way subordinated to Mr. Hadzic?
16 A. No. How would he be?
17 Q. And you did explain to us that you did return your own weapon; is
18 that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, I'm sorry, but this order to
21 surrender weapons, again this is an adjudicated fact. So is it really
22 relevant to go on in this -- this line of questioning?
23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, Mr. Zecevic's challenging the adjudicated
24 fact in relation to who surrendered what weapons. So I'm just trying to
25 clarify from the witness who did he surrender his weapon to and did it
Page 9276
1 come from, well, what Mr. Zecevic was suggesting, the leaders of the SDA
2 or the -- or the Municipal Assembly. Maybe ...
3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. But again, this doesn't come out
4 from the cross-examination. And moreover, the testimony of the witness
5 is that he himself -- and it's in his statement. He gave his pistol to
6 the police. The one which he legally owned and received the -- the
7 receipt from the police about his pistol. That's -- that's the evidence.
8 And I wasn't cross-examining him on that, because, of course, he has to
9 give it back to the police because the police gives him the permission to
10 carry that gun. That is the law.
11 So, therefore, I mean --
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge, please.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
15 Now it is.
16 Mr. Zecevic were you challenging the adjudicated fact, the order
17 given to the Muslims to surrender their weapons?
18 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I don't have the -- the adjudicated
19 facts in front of me exactly, but we do not challenge that the order to
20 surrender the illegal weapons has been issued. We just say it was done
21 by the JNA. And the commander of the garrison who issued the order was,
22 whatever his name was, a Muslim colonel of the JNA. That is our
23 position. Thank you.
24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's fine. I'll move on.
25 Q. Just one question, when is the last time -- have you seen
Page 9277
1 Mr. Hadzic in 1992?
2 A. I don't know Hadzic, and I didn't see him. I mean, I saw him in
3 passing, but I didn't see him during the war or after the war.
4 Q. Very well. I'll move to another topic.
5 Mr. Zecevic asked you after your detention at the prison whether
6 you were released within three days, and he framed it within the legal
7 time, 72 hours.
8 Do you remember that question?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Now when you were arrested, did anyone inform you why you were
11 arrested?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were your rights read to you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And did you ever receive any paper during your detention between
16 May and July at any time, from the authorities?
17 A. No.
18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That will be all, Your Honours.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE HALL
21 testimony, and you are now released as a witness, and we wish you a safe
22 journey back to your home.
23 Thank you, sir.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
Page 9278
1 JUDGE HALL
2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I am, but the witness is not. We just received
3 some information from the Victims and Witness Section that the witness
4 was feeling ill and was returned to the hotel.
5 JUDGE HALL
6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: So I guess we can resume at 9.00 tomorrow and
7 see how he is feeling.
8 JUDGE HALL
9 courtroom, I believe, at 9.00 tomorrow morning. Sorry, Courtroom II, at
10 9.00 tomorrow morning.
11 Thank you.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.32 p.m.
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of April,
14 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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