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Page 9283

1 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I begin, Your Honours?

3 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.

4 WITNESS: MIROSLAV VIDIC

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vidic. I apologise for that introduction but I

8 will begin with my questions.

9 You already stated your name and your date of birth. Could you

10 tell the Trial Chamber about your educational background, please.

11 A. I finished the faculty of industrial pedagogy, and I am the

12 professor of mechanics and technology.

13 Q. And what year did you finish your studies?

14 A. In 1977.

15 Q. And what level of studies did you achieve?

16 A. Bachelor of arts.

17 Q. Very well. Is it correct to say that after university you worked

18 in a prison, Goli Otok, between the years 1977 and 1979 in Croatia?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And your role there was an educator; is that correct?

21 A. No. I worked there as an educator. But since the correction

22 facility had its own school, I also worked part-time as a teacher there.

23 Q. Thank you for that clarification.

24 Is it correct that after two years in Goli Otok you went do Doboj

25 where you were teaching for four months in a school of mechanical

Page 9284

1 engineering?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it is correct to say that on the 1st of April 1980 you were

4 employed and hired by the Doboj Central Prison.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which year you retired?

7 A. On the 31st of December, 2008.

8 Q. When you were hired in 1980, what were you hired as? What was

9 your position?

10 A. An educator.

11 Q. And can you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber what your role

12 consisted of as an educator.

13 A. I worked in the district prison as a person who receives the

14 convicts and through whom the convicts exercise their rights and, at the

15 same time, try to rehabilitate, in terms of me instructing them to

16 maintain contacts with their families, if these were disruptive families,

17 and in that manner sort of prepare them for the time when they are

18 released from prison.

19 Q. And you held on to this position until the outbreak of the

20 conflict in 1992; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I'd like to move on to the structure of the prison. Can you,

23 first of all, tell us, in relation to the Doboj Central Prison, what type

24 of prison it was?

25 A. It was a district prison, according to the categorisation of

Page 9285

1 correctional and prison facility in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was a closed

2 type facility. Remand custody and normal imprisonment, up to six months

3 were carried out in that prison. The minister, or rather, the secretary

4 at the time, was entitled to distribute the convicts. Sometimes it

5 happened that serving prison sentence were people who were sentenced to

6 more than six months of imprisonment.

7 Q. Now, you told us what type of prison it was and what type of

8 prisoners were held there. Could you explain to us the structure of the

9 prison, in terms of management positions. Who would we see at the top

10 levels of the prison?

11 A. The governor was at the head of the prison. Then there were

12 heads of services.

13 Q. And just a clarification here. The governor was at the head of

14 the prison. What did you mean by the governor?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It's a British word for

16 warden.

17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. It has been clarified now on the

18 transcript.

19 Q. What are the different services inside of the prison?

20 A. There was the guard service, the rehabilitation service, the

21 legal and administrative and personnel service, and the economic unit.

22 As part of the administrative and legal service was the medical unit and

23 the financial unit.

24 Q. You mentioned the economic unit. Could you expand on that?

25 A. The economic service was in charge of conducting labour therapy

Page 9286

1 for the convicts.

2 Q. And did this economic unit, was it known by another name?

3 A. Spreca.

4 Q. And was this unit held in the same facility as the prison, in the

5 same building?

6 A. No. It was dislocated, some 3 kilometres from the facility.

7 Q. Thank you. What was the capacity of the prison, in terms of

8 numbers of convicts and detainees?

9 A. There were certain quotas which says that each convict is

10 entitled to four square metres or eight cubic metres of space. However,

11 when asked about the capacity, one of my former wardens said, Nobody was

12 sent back due to the lack of space.

13 So according to the present standards in place, the capacity for

14 serving sentences and for custody is about 100 persons in total.

15 Q. And just to come back to an answer you gave earlier --

16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. Yes.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. 8, 4/5, I believe the witness

18 says, No one was sent due to lack of space.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, that is correct, that is what I heard as

20 well.

21 Q. Mr. Vidic, just to clarify an answer you provided us earlier you

22 mentioned that the economic unit was also known as Spreca. When we talk

23 about Spreca we only refer to that economic unit that was 3 kilometres

24 away from the prison building. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9287

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, in due course, I will make some

2 applications because the adjudicated facts may have some confusion about

3 what the prison was called exactly. But that is a point I will raise in

4 due course.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, where was the prison situated in Doboj?

6 A. It was on the main street now called St. Sava Street, formally

7 called Marshal Tito Street. But I'm not sure about the number. It is

8 either 12 or 14.

9 Q. And when you say that it was in the main street in terms of the

10 town itself, how would you locate the prison? In which parts of town was

11 it?

12 A. It's in down-town, the very centre of the town.

13 Q. What building were adjacent -- what buildings were adjacent to

14 the prison?

15 A. There was a bank, a MUP building, a court building, the

16 prosecutor's office. Those are the adjacent buildings. Behind, were

17 residential houses.

18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: While I'm asking the next question, perhaps 65

19 ter 3419.29 could be pulled up.

20 Q. Mr. Vidic, was the prison connected to any other building?

21 A. Since it was built sometime in 1986 or 1987, it was connected to

22 the court-house.

23 Q. Very well.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we saw this map yesterday, but I

25 will ask different questions about it.

Page 9288

1 With the help of the usher, perhaps, if the witness could mark

2 this aerial image.

3 Q. First of all, Mr. Vidic, do you recognise this image?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Okay. Very quickly with the letter A, if you could just mark the

6 prison building for us.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And you told us that it was connected to the court-house. Could

9 you show us where that connection was. And mark it with a letter B.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. And could you explain to us how it was connected to the

12 court-house.

13 A. Up until 1986 or 1987, the court-house and the prosecutor's

14 office were in one building, but a detached building. More due to the

15 requirements of the court, they built a link with the prison building on

16 the ground floor. That was the only connection. And in the section

17 where these two buildings meet, a door was open, and the key to this door

18 was only held by the prison personnel. It was used in the event of

19 special security reasons when some people had to be escorted to the

20 court. But as far as I know, it's never been used.

21 Q. And below the building you marked with the letter B, there are

22 two other buildings. Could you tell what these are.

23 A. I didn't understand your question. In front?

24 Q. Just -- well, on the image just below the building marked with

25 the letter B.

Page 9289

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Connected to the building with the letter B, just below it, what

3 was that building right there?

4 A. Right. That's the court-house and the prosecutor's offices.

5 Q. Could you mark that with the letter C.

6 A. [Marks]

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And if we could seize that image, I'd like to

8 tender it.

9 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1303, Your Honours.

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

12 Q. Mr. Vidic, I'd like to turn on to the record-keeping in the

13 prison.

14 Could you explain to the Court how would the prison record every

15 prisoner serving a sentence?

16 A. The prescribed records of convicts were kept in the form of a

17 register; the birth and deaths register, and the personal file of the

18 convict.

19 Q. And would such a record also include the decision upon which the

20 convict was ordered to be detained?

21 A. In order for a convict to be admitted to serve their sentence,

22 before the convict shows up at the prison, the court has to send the

23 prison an order.

24 Q. And in relation to these records, was there also a record for

25 detainees, non-convicted persons?

Page 9290

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, according to the procedure, according to the law, how long

3 could a detainee be held in the prison?

4 A. Sentences up to six months. I'm not sure, in fact. I told you,

5 I worked as an educator, and the remand prison was managed by the head of

6 the guard service.

7 Q. I apologise, maybe my question was not clear. I was talking

8 about the detainees; people who were detained not convicts.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe the witness -- the witness answered

10 properly to your question. It is just -- it was recorded. But I don't

11 have my the phones on -- earphone off -- on, so I don't know what was

12 translated. But he was actually referring to the detention not

13 sentences.

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.

15 Q. On -- could you clarify, Mr. Vidic, on whose -- you told us that

16 you would need a court's order to detain someone. How would that order

17 come to the prison? How would it reach you?

18 A. Well, that depends who was sending a person. It could be the

19 MUP. The MUP could detain a person in remand up to three days. Such

20 orders were delivered by the MUP.

21 For longer detention, the MUP would apply to the prosecutor's

22 office, and the prosecutor's office would decide on a prolongation, or it

23 could be the court.

24 Q. Now, in relation to the courts, what responsibility did the

25 courts have over the well-being of prisoners inside the prison?

Page 9291

1 A. None.

2 Q. Would --

3 A. In fact, I don't understand the question.

4 Q. Let me clarify it for you.

5 Would the court be informed of the conditions in the prison.

6 A. There was legislation stipulating the conditions that a

7 correctional/penal facility had to provided and ensure, and there was

8 nothing controversial about that.

9 In regard to any problem with any detainee or prisoner, the

10 prison was required to inform the competent court. In addition to that,

11 the president of the district court had a duty to visit the prison.

12 Q. How often would the president of the court visit the prison?

13 A. Perhaps once a month; perhaps more often.

14 Q. Now, during -- if you're holding a detainee, and that this

15 detainee is under investigation, were there premises in the prison for

16 visits and interviews?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if a detainee was to be interviewed, would it normally take

19 place in the prison, or would it take place elsewhere?

20 A. In the prison.

21 Q. Could a detainee be taken out of the prison for interrogation?

22 A. Yes. On orders of the court, or whoever detained him.

23 Q. And what was the procedure to have an interview with a detainee

24 outside the prison?

25 A. The court would issue a warrant for a detainee to be taken out,

Page 9292

1 and the guard would lead him out. That would be mostly to the

2 court-house or, if a detainee had health problems, he would be taken to

3 the health centre or the hospital; but, again, with the approval of the

4 court. Without the approval of the court, it was impossible to take

5 anyone out of the prison.

6 Q. If the police wished to interview a detainee, would it also need

7 a court order?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was there a difference for convicts and detainees in the

10 procedure?

11 A. There was. It was the prison administration who was responsible

12 for convicts. As far as remand was concerned, the administration of the

13 prison was just servicing the court.

14 Q. And if the police wished to interview a -- a person on remand,

15 would it to have to go through the court?

16 A. If it was remand in custody up to three days, that was in the

17 competence of the police, the MUP. So the MUP did not need anyone's

18 approval. If it was longer for -- than three days, then the court had to

19 give approval to the police.

20 Q. And just briefly, if could you explain the procedure for someone

21 who is in detention up to three days, what would the procedure for the

22 police to take out the detainee and interrogate or interview him?

23 A. They would bring a warrant from the MUP, properly phrased and

24 signed, and submit it.

25 Q. Very well. I'd like to turn reporting.

Page 9293

1 Who would the prison warden be responsible to, who would he

2 report to?

3 A. In those times, to the secretariat and the republican secretary

4 for justice. Now it is called ministry and minister.

5 Q. Was the warden duty-bound to send periodical reports to the

6 ministry or to the secretariat?

7 A. The warden was duty-bound to send annual reports. In addition to

8 that, he was duty-bound to inform the secretariat about any and all

9 changes occurring, such as injuries to prisoners, the use of force,

10 epidemics, et cetera.

11 Q. With regard to the use of force, could you expand on that. Would

12 that be reported to the ministry annually, or would that be on another

13 occasion?

14 A. That was reported immediately to the ministry, by telephone, as

15 soon as it was found out. And then after all the information was

16 collected, a written report would be sent.

17 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what procedure was in

18 place in the situation where force was applied against a prisoner?

19 A. As soon as information was received on application of force, the

20 guard would report it to the warden, and the warden would start

21 disciplinary proceedings.

22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian, could we just clarify which

23 ministry we're talking about. Is it the Ministry of Justice or the

24 Ministry of Interior?

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: He answered it earlier, but I can clarify again

Page 9294

1 if you wish. He said Secretariat for justice at page 14, line 21.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: Very well.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I think it is still on the screen.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Oh, yes, sorry. Thank you very much.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

6 Q. Mr. Vidic, you just explained how the procedure would take place.

7 You said the warden would start disciplinary proceedings. Could you

8 expand on that, please.

9 A. Based on any information collected by a head of the service, the

10 head of service would submit all the information to the warden, and the

11 warden would then decide if there were the necessary elements to start

12 disciplinary proceedings.

13 Q. Who would be involved in the disciplinary proceedings?

14 A. There was a disciplinary commission made up of prison employees.

15 Q. Was there anybody from other institutions that would be involved,

16 or is it only prison employees?

17 A. Only prison employees.

18 Q. Over and above disciplinary measures, could criminal measures be

19 applied?

20 A. We did not have such a case, but the possibility existed. If

21 there were the required elements, a criminal report could be made.

22 Q. And who would be involved in preparing this criminal report?

23 A. The legal officer from the legal and administrative service.

24 Q. And who would he send this report to?

25 A. I'm telling you, we didn't have such a case, but I suppose to the

Page 9295

1 prosecutor's office.

2 Q. Very well. In relation to the records of the prison you

3 mentioned earlier, could you tell us within the prison who maintained the

4 records: One for the records of convicts; and, two, records for persons

5 on remand.

6 A. The register for detainees on remand were kept by the head of the

7 guard service. And the register of convicts was kept by the officer in

8 charge of execution of sentences.

9 Q. And was there a duty officer at the entrance of the prison?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did he maintain a log-book?

12 A. He kept a duty log-book. Duty service log-book.

13 Q. And, to your knowledge, what would be included in this log-book?

14 A. Who was admitted for serving a sentence, who was admitted for

15 custody and remand, who was released from detention. Any and all

16 important observations would be entered by the duty officer during his

17 tour of duty, because the guard service worked 20 hours a day. And in

18 the absence of the warden, which means after normal working hours, the

19 duty officer at the prison was responsible for the establishment of the

20 prison and who stands in for the warden.

21 Q. Mr. Vidic, I would like now to turn to the events in 1991 and

22 1992.

23 First of all, if you could tell the Court during the multi-party

24 elections, did you personally join any political party?

25 A. No.

Page 9296

1 Q. And after the elections, did you, at any time, join any political

2 party?

3 A. No.

4 Q. In 1991, you were still in your role -- in your position as an

5 educator; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In 1991, who was the prison warden?

8 A. We had an acting warden at the time, Mirko --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last name.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the same time, he was head of

11 the guard service.

12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

13 Q. Mr. Vidic, the last name of the warden was not recorded on the

14 transcript. Would you just repeat his last name, please.

15 A. Mirko Slavuljica.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe -- you should ask the witness again to

17 repeat, because -- just the last name. It is in the record.

18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is in the record.

19 Q. While I'm asking the next question, we could pull up 65 ter 3528,

20 please.

21 Mr. Vidic, you told us that Mr. Slavuljica was the acting warden.

22 Could you just explain to us the "acting."

23 A. It was some kind of provisional measure, pending the appointment

24 of a new warden.

25 Q. Now can you see the document on the screen. This is a document

Page 9297

1 that I've shown you before.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go to the bottom of the page in the

3 B/C/S version. And that would be page 2 in the English version.

4 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Whose signature is it?

7 A. Mirko Slavuljica's.

8 Q. Okay. And it -- what is the title? It reads there, indeed, that

9 he is acting prison warden. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go back to the top of the document,

12 and that's page 1 in English.

13 Q. Could you tell us under what circumstances this document was

14 drafted.

15 A. Mirko was a reserve officer, and he had received a call-up into

16 the reserve from the army.

17 Q. And by this document, what functions and what role are attributed

18 to you?

19 A. I was put in charge of performing the duties of a -- of the

20 warden and making sure that the establishment is run properly. This was

21 kind of a forced decision, because in the job staffing specification

22 there is no such position as deputy warden.

23 Q. Now, at the time, you had you seen this document?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, can I ask this document to be

Page 9298

1 admitted.

2 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1304, Your Honours.

4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

5 Q. Mr. Vidic, after Mr. Slavuljica was called up to the army

6 reserve, was he still present at the prison?

7 A. He would come by from time to time.

8 Q. And was he still fulfilling his functions as warden or acting

9 warden?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when you say "from time to time," could you just give the

12 Trial Chamber of how frequently he would be at the prison.

13 A. It would be pure speculation now, after all this time. But he

14 came by -- he's a responsible kind of person, and he cared a lot to have

15 the institution run properly, so he did spend -- spend a lot of time with

16 us, despite the fact that he was in the reserve.

17 Q. In 1991, how many staff members did you have in the prison?

18 A. It's difficult to be precise about that, but it was already a

19 time when the whole state was in crisis and orders were coming from the

20 secretariat to down-size. So how many staff we had in which period, I

21 couldn't say for sure, but we had between 36 and 39 staff members.

22 Q. Could you tell the Court what was the ethnic makeup of your staff

23 in 1991.

24 A. You're asking too much. I really can't say. But I can say that

25 we did take care to maintain an ethnic balance so that it be

Page 9299

1 representative of the population. But since I wasn't directly

2 responsible for that sort of work, I can't say whether our ethnic

3 structure reflected the ethnic composition of the municipality or the

4 region. But it was certainly proper ethnic representation.

5 Q. And could you just explain to the Trial Chamber when you say

6 "maintaining the ethnic balance," based on what did you maintain this

7 balance, to your knowledge?

8 A. Well, the ethnic composition of both the municipality and the

9 region were known facts. And some time in 1991, although I'm telling

10 you, I didn't have any involvement in such work directly, a medical

11 technician was being hired, and it was said, at the time, that it had to

12 be a Serb.

13 Q. Now, before I move on to the events in 1992, could you briefly

14 explain to us how many meals per day would be provided to the prisoners

15 inside the prison?

16 A. Three meals. And convicts who worked, as it was stipulated by

17 the law, received an additional fourth meal. But since it was not

18 exactly stipulated what exactly constituted hard physical labour, this

19 fourth meal was given to everyone.

20 Q. And could you describe to the Court the uniform of the guards in

21 your prison.

22 A. The uniform was dark blue, and the shirt was light blue, and the

23 tie was of dark blue colour, and they had a hat on their heads.

24 Q. How did this uniform compare to the regular uniform of the

25 police?

Page 9300

1 A. The police had some sort of light greyish colour uniform.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now, Your Honours, we have adjudicated facts

4 about the start of the conflict in early 1992, so I will skip to part and

5 go straight to the events of May 1992, with your leave.

6 Mr. Vidic, could you tell us when roughly you heard about the

7 beginning of the conflict in Doboj?

8 A. It was on or about the 3rd of May, in the morning. It could have

9 been between 6.00 and 7.00.

10 Q. How did you come to learn about it?

11 A. Since it was a holiday, the 1st of May, I was at my

12 father-in-law's summer cottage, and a colleague of mine, a guard, knew

13 where the cottage was, and he came there and informed me.

14 Q. And where was the summer cottage?

15 A. It was in the village of Strijezevica [phoen], 8 kilometres from

16 Doboj.

17 Q. Now what happened when your colleague informed you? What

18 happened next?

19 A. Well, I immediately went to the prison. There, I saw that this

20 huge gate was open. And in the lounge, or in the hall, were people in

21 camouflage uniforms and painted faces. I don't know at this moment, but

22 I think I saw two or three guards as well, inside the building.

23 Q. On your way from the summer cottage to the prison, did you notice

24 anything specific?

25 A. I did not notice anything of the kind. Because it was a Sunday,

Page 9301

1 it was holiday, it was pretty early in the morning, and due to all these

2 factors, I didn't see or notice anything.

3 Q. Did you have any difficulty getting to the prison?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, you told us that you saw individuals in camouflage uniform

6 and painted faces. How many of these individuals did you see?

7 A. I couldn't tell you. To me, it was a shock to see them there.

8 Because this institution was of a strictly closed type, it was highly

9 respected in the town. The gate was never opened, and, on that day, when

10 I came, I see the gate wide open, and I see a lot of strangers there.

11 Q. Were these people armed?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you describe to us the situation inside the prison, when you

14 see these men.

15 A. I tried to pass through as quickly as possible, pass by them and

16 reach my office. There, I was told that three guards had been locked up

17 by these men. I couldn't get any information from the employees of ours

18 that I saw downstairs. So I went myself to see my colleagues in other

19 offices because I heard that they sent a message asking to talk to me

20 immediately. They asked me what was going on and what was happening, but

21 I wasn't able to provide them with any answers. I gave all the

22 cigarettes I have to the guard called Braderic, and I promised them that

23 I would do my best to find with the MUP what this was all about and that

24 I was going to notify Slavuljica.

25 Q. And what happened to Braderic? Where did you see him?

Page 9302

1 A. He was locked up in a cell, in the custody section of the

2 building.

3 Q. Was he the only guard to be in custody?

4 A. No, there were two more.

5 Q. And what was their ethnic background?

6 A. Muslims.

7 Q. Did you see other detainees in the prison?

8 A. There were very few detainees at the time, which is immediately

9 before the war. Some amnesties were issued before the war which greatly

10 affected the numbers. The numbers were drastically reduced. There were

11 only a couple of people in prison serving sentences.

12 Q. And on the 3rd of May, when you arrived at the prison, how many

13 people were imprisoned there, to your knowledge?

14 A. I cannot say for sure, but there were no more than 15 of them,

15 definitely. Both among those who were in custody and both among convicts

16 serving their sentences.

17 Q. You told us that you saw these individuals in camouflage uniform.

18 Did you -- were you able to tell if they had a leader?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, you told us that you spoke to Braderic; you gave him your

21 cigarettes, and you would do your best to speak to the MUP and to notify

22 Slavuljica.

23 What, if anything, did you do about this?

24 A. Yes. I tried to call Slavuljica, but I failed to establish a

25 connection. Then I headed off towards MUP to find someone there, someone

Page 9303

1 who -- who was a high-ranking official. Also, in this reception area in

2 the MUP, there was also a large group of men in camouflage uniforms, and

3 since the MUP management were on the upper storey, these men on the

4 ground floor did not let me pass through. Therefore, I went back to

5 prison, called Slavuljica again, and finally managed to get in touch with

6 him sometime after 9.00. And Slavuljica came out relatively quickly.

7 Q. When Slavuljica arrived at the prison, what did he do?

8 A. We first briefed him about the current situation, and he

9 immediately went to the MUP. I don't know who he talked there to, and

10 then, after that, he returned to us again. Our three officers were

11 released from the cells, our three employees.

12 Q. Now, when Mr. Slavuljica arrived, you said that you briefed him

13 and he went to the MUP. Did you see those three guards released?

14 A. The custody cells are on the upper storey, and I saw them later

15 in the ground floor offices. And I spent some time with them.

16 Q. Did they tell you if they were given any reasons for being put in

17 those cells?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And in relation to the MUP building you tried to go to, was this

20 -- which MUP building were you talking about?

21 A. There was only one MUP building in Doboj.

22 Q. And that is the one that you explained earlier was next to the

23 prison.

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Now, at the time when you attempted to go to the MUP, did you

Page 9304

1 have in mind someone specific you would like to meet?

2 A. Well, yes, I did. I thought to try and find the chief of the

3 centre, the chief of the station, the chief of the criminal investigation

4 police. Anyone of that status.

5 Q. Did you know these individuals at the time?

6 A. I knew the chief of the centre. I saw him only once, though.

7 As for the chief of the station, I didn't know him.

8 I didn't even know who was at the head of the criminal

9 investigation service.

10 Q. Now, you told us that on that day you must have had, at most,

11 15 detainees. Did those numbers vary on that day and on the following

12 days?

13 A. It started changing right from the start.

14 On the 3rd of May, they started bringing people in.

15 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian, maybe I missed it, but I would

16 like you to clarify with the witness the reasons why he went to the MUP

17 and -- and my question is really, did he do so because the wardens and

18 the prison guards were employed by the MUP, were they MUP employees, or

19 was it because the prison, as such, was run by the MUP? Or ...

20 What was the purpose of going to the MUP?

21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard Your Honour's [sic] question. What was the

23 purpose of going to the MUP building?

24 A. I went to the MUP building because we were dealing with prison

25 employees who had been on duty the previous night. The prison was never

Page 9305

1 within the management system of the MUP.

2 Q. Now, you're saying that the prison was never within the

3 management system of the MUP. You clarified earlier that you were within

4 the Ministry of Justice. Did you try to go to the court, perhaps, on

5 that day?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, you were telling us that --

8 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, if I may --

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE HALL: -- interrupt. And perhaps I'm missing something,

11 but I'm not clear on the relationship between the MUP, the prison, the

12 Ministry of Justice. If could you assist me there, please.

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, yes.

14 Q. Mr. Vidic, could you clarify to the Trial Chamber, first of all,

15 how -- what is the relationship between the MUP and the prison?

16 A. The relationship between the MUP and the prison was such that

17 certain relations were in place, because these are similar institutions

18 but MUP was in charge of security and for combatting crimes; whereas, we,

19 in prison, guarded the felons, tried to rehabilitate and reeducate them,

20 et cetera.

21 So once the MUP finish their part of job, they transfer them to

22 judiciary, and we were the last link in this chain. So the very fact

23 that the police had uniforms, that our guards had uniforms as well, that

24 they were all armed with weapons and batons, the majority of citizens

25 perceived them as police. They just didn't make any distinction. But in

Page 9306

1 reality we were not together, and we did not belong to the same entity.

2 JUDGE HALL: So do I understand the position to be, Mr. Vidic,

3 that the prison, in terms of the structure of government, that the prison

4 was an autonomous agency and not subordinate to the MUP on the one hand,

5 not subordinate to the Ministry of Justice.

6 Do I get it right?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prison belonged to the Ministry

8 of Justice.

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: And the warden and the prison guards were

10 employees of the Ministry of Justice as well?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thanks.

13 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Ministry of Justice, there

15 was a sector for law enforcement or execution of sanctions, and there was

16 a judiciary section. The minister has an assistant for the execution of

17 criminal sanctions, and he has another assistant for judicial affairs.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: May I -- I'm sorry to -- to pick on this. But

19 could I then revert to my original question. Why did you go to the MUP

20 in order to resolve the problems or the situation that you found in the

21 prison when you came that morning, on the 3rd of May?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to the MUP because my

23 colleagues had told me that people in uniforms entered the building and

24 locked up our three colleagues. That was the reason why I went to the

25 MUP. I didn't go to the court because court had nothing to do with

Page 9307

1 uniformed personnel. There were no uniformed personnel in court at the

2 time. Nowadays, there are policemen in the court-house.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: I see. So what you understood when you came to

4 the prison that morning on the 3rd of May was that the armed persons with

5 camouflage paintings, that they were policemen rather than soldiers. Is

6 that correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't think anything. In my

8 view, they were only people in uniforms wearing arms. As to who they

9 were, I didn't think anything at that particular moment. All I knew,

10 that they were armed and they were dressed in uniforms.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, do I understand that you went to the

13 MUP, which is the police, just because the police is the -- is the place

14 to go when there is disturbance in the prison? As -- as a normal citizen

15 would go to the police if there is any other disturbances in his house or

16 something like that.

17 You just went to the police. Is that right?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so. I had no information

19 whatsoever and that is why I went to the MUP, hoping to hearing is about

20 the event from them.

21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And just to close this chapter before the break.

22 Q. Mr. Vidic, when you saw these people with camouflage uniforms,

23 did you know which unit they belonged to?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you know their ethnicity?

Page 9308

1 A. Since upon my arrival in prison, I heard that our three Muslim

2 employees had been incarcerated, it became clear to me that these men in

3 uniform were Serbs.

4 Q. And was there any other distinctive feature about these men,

5 besides the uniform and the paint on the face?

6 A. No. It's difficult for me. Can you imagine how shocked you

7 become if you enter such a room, and it really blurs your memory. All I

8 wanted was to pass by those men as soon as I could. One of the men who

9 was lying on the floor asked me, Who is this guy? And the other one

10 responded, He works here. And I just went through.

11 Q. And one last question before the break. Were they wearing any

12 helmets or any other distinctive features?

13 A. They had hats, they had caps, all of them made of camouflage

14 material.

15 Q. What kind of hats are we talking about?

16 A. Camouflage hats of the type that I hadn't seen before, except in

17 films. That kind of hats.

18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May be a good time to take the break,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we resume in 20 minutes.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

24 [The witness takes the stand]

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I continue, Your Honours?

Page 9309

1 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Vidic, I would like to take you back to the point where you

4 told us that, on the 3rd of May, people were being brought into the

5 prison.

6 Could you tell us what you witnessed on that day.

7 A. At first, I didn't see anything. When we were training to work

8 in a penal/correctional facility and when we were passing specialized

9 exams, we were learning how to work in normal conditions, so it came as a

10 shock to me. I simply withdrew into my office, and I wasn't clear about

11 what was going on.

12 At that time, the greatest burden was on the guards. Later, when

13 Slavuljica came, we had an opportunity to discuss. Something needed to

14 be done; but what and how?

15 Q. Now, in relation to the people being brought in, can you tell us,

16 on the 3rd of May and over the course of the next days, who was being

17 brought in?

18 A. You mean in terms of ethnicity?

19 Q. Let's begin with that.

20 A. They were bringing in Muslims and Croats.

21 Q. And these people -- these Muslims and Croats were from where

22 exactly?

23 A. That's hard to say with any certainty. Because in those first

24 days, they were brought without any papers, any documents, any warrants.

25 Q. Were these people from the municipality of Doboj?

Page 9310

1 A. I suppose so, but I'm not sure.

2 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

3 A. That very first day, no. But, later on, I did recognise some.

4 There were among them my former schoolmates, and also a former teacher of

5 mine. Some of my work colleagues.

6 Q. And what were these people wearing, the people that were being

7 brought into the prison?

8 A. Civilian clothes.

9 Q. And --

10 A. Although, later on, it was hard to say. Some were also brought

11 wearing military uniforms. But in the first round, they were all wearing

12 civilian clothes.

13 Q. And in relation to the people who were bringing the people, who

14 were they? Who were the people bringing in people in the prison?

15 A. I couldn't tell you that. In those first days, we had absolutely

16 no information. I just told you that Slavuljica and I discussed what to

17 do, and how. At first, we were clueless.

18 Q. And I will not ask you any specific number at this stage. But

19 could you give us, roughly speaking, the number of people that were being

20 brought into the prison in those first few days, in the month of May.

21 A. I couldn't give you even a rough estimate. It would be pure

22 speculation. But there were lists, and there are still lists. So

23 everything is clear. Nothing was concealed.

24 Q. We will look at those lists in a moment.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian.

Page 9311

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HARHOFF: The witness answered your question as to who were

3 bringing in the people, and the witness said that, At first they were

4 clueless. That suggests at some point they did find out.

5 Could you just finish --

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

7 JUDGE HARHOFF: -- your line of questioning.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

9 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard Your Honour's [sic] question. Could you

10 tell us eventually, if you found out, who were bringing prisoners in your

11 prison?

12 A. No. No, at first, we couldn't find out, because things were

13 happening in the way they were happening. We, nevertheless, wanted to

14 keep some sort of records, and we took a notebook and turned into a

15 register, into which we entered the name and surname of the person who

16 was brought in, the date and hour when they were brought, the date and

17 hour of release. But, at first, we didn't know, and we never found out.

18 Although, there were so many armed groups of all sorts. It was difficult

19 to find out who they were. We never did.

20 Q. Those armed groups that you're referring to eventually -- I know

21 you said in the earlier days you didn't know. Did you eventually found

22 out to which organisation they belonged to and who was bringing

23 prisoners?

24 A. No, no.

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: Did you discover the purpose for which the

Page 9312

1 detainees were brought in to the prison?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

3 JUDGE HARHOFF: But I thought you said that you registered them.

4 So I assume that you must have had some conversations with them, with the

5 detainees, as to why they were being detained. And were they detained

6 against their will or for their protection? What was the purpose?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not our job. We did not

8 interview them. We did not inquire into that, and physically we were not

9 able to.

10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

11 Q. Sir, were the prisoners brought in with the adequate paperwork

12 for their detention, as was the case prior to the war? Were they brought

13 in with the proper paperwork?

14 A. No. At first, there was no paperwork at all. There was no

15 warrant, no order sending these people to us. And, later on, I suppose

16 that as we needed time, the police also needed time to consolidate. So,

17 at a later stage, we did get warrants for detention. But those warrants

18 were not filled in properly.

19 Q. And when these people were being brought in the prison, you told

20 us that you have a duty officer at the entrance. Were you ever informed

21 by the duty officer as to who was bringing these people in the prison?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You didn't ask who brought these people?

24 A. No. There was no sense in that.

25 Q. You told us that you called Mirko Slavuljica and he arrived on

Page 9313

1 the 3rd of May. Did he go back to the army reserve?

2 A. He did not. Not until he left the prison for good.

3 Q. And when did he leave the prison for good?

4 A. I can't say exactly, but it could have been between the 15th and

5 the 20th of June, 1992.

6 Q. And after the 15th or the 20th of June, 1992, did somebody

7 replace him?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Now, in those earlier days, did the prison administration - and

10 by that I mean either Mr. Slavuljica or yourself - get into contact with

11 the MUP, in relation to the numbers of prisoners being brought in?

12 A. Slavuljica went to the MUP; I know that. And he had contacts

13 there. But what he discussed, and with whom, I don't know.

14 Q. Did you have discussions with him about going to speak to the

15 MUP?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did he tell you who he was planning to meet at the MUP?

18 A. What we discussed is -- is that something needed to be done, some

19 steps needed to be made to restore some kind of normalcy in our work.

20 And I know that, on one occasion, he went and talked to the chief of the

21 centre because soon afterwards, a letter came from the centre.

22 Q. And do you remember who was the chief of the centre at that time?

23 A. Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic.

24 Q. And what did Mr. Slavuljica tell to Andrija Bjelosevic? Did he

25 tell you, or did you ever find out?

Page 9314

1 A. We had our discussions before that, that he should go to the MUP

2 and try to see if it's possible at all to prevent these incursions by

3 paramilitary groups into the prison.

4 Q. And when you say "incursions by paramilitary groups," what did

5 you learn about these incursions? What happened exactly during those

6 incursions?

7 A. They beat up prisoners.

8 Q. And how frequently did this happen?

9 A. It's difficult to say how often. We didn't count these raids,

10 but we took steps after every raid. We heard from individuals that these

11 raids usually happened after military clashes with the other side, with

12 the enemy, when one of their fellow fighters were killed.

13 Q. And you told us that a letter came out from the centre. Was this

14 after the meeting that Mr. Slavuljica had with Mr. Bjelosevic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did Mr. Slavuljica approach this issue with Mr. Bjelosevic?

17 A. I don't know. Slavuljica just went to the MUP and talked to

18 someone. I wasn't there; I don't know.

19 Q. Inside the prison you told us what the capacity was before the

20 war. What was the situation after the 3rd of May, in terms of the

21 capacity of prisoners?

22 A. The question of capacity wasn't raised. Everyone brought in was

23 received.

24 Q. Was this capacity respected after the 3rd of May?

25 A. No.

Page 9315

1 Q. And in relation to supplies, such as food, water, et cetera, what

2 was the condition? What was the situation in the prison?

3 A. There were no conditions, as such. In the first few days, we had

4 some food, and in the times of the state as existed previously, there was

5 a rule that the prison had to have food supplies for at least ten days in

6 case of emergencies, so that, in the first few days, the situation was

7 relatively satisfactory. Sometimes the town bakery didn't work, and

8 there was no bread in the town. Bread for the hospital was baked in the

9 surrounding villages, and we had in prison, a sack of flour that

10 Slavuljica used to ask a private baker to bake some bread. And, later

11 on, when the supplies were as -- were exhausted, which happened quite

12 quickly, we raided all the shops in Doboj and the food factory in Doboj.

13 And as long as they had any reserves, they gave them to us.

14 Later on, after the UNHCR came, the situation changed completely.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I ask for 65 ter 3530 to be displayed on

16 the screen.

17 Q. And, sir, I'd like to you take a look at this document. It will

18 appear in a moment. ?

19 This is a document of the 12th of June, 1992, from the CSB Doboj.

20 Could you, first of all, tell us if you've seen this document before.

21 A. I have.

22 Q. And did you see it at the time in 1992?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Could you please read the first paragraph, after it says:

25 "Order."

Page 9316

1 A. "I strictly prohibit arbitrary entry into the premises of the

2 Doboj District Prison, and the rooms for temporary detention of persons

3 in public security stations, as well as the use of physical intimidation

4 and physical force against imprisoned and detained persons."

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we scroll to the bottom of that page,

6 please.

7 Q. And do you see there that it is signed by Andrija Bjelosevic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is this the letter that you were referring to that came after

10 Mr. Slavuljica met Mr. Bjelosevic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And to your knowledge - I know it's been 18 years - this document

13 is issued on the 12th of June, roughly speaking, how much time before

14 this order did Mr. Slavuljica met -- meet Mr. Bjelosevic?

15 A. I can't say, but it was not long.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I would ask -- Your Honours.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: What was the results of this order? Since it was

19 issued by the CSB, I would assume that the police would then take action

20 here, and seek to implement the order and prevent those armed incursions

21 into the prison.

22 Did that happen?

23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

24 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard the question. What was the impact of this

25 order?

Page 9317

1 A. I just said a moment ago that the police also took time to

2 consolidate just as we did. After this order came, some further raids

3 happened, but nothing comparable to the state of affairs before.

4 Q. And to your knowledge, was this order publicised in Doboj?

5 A. No.

6 Q. It was addressed by the CSB chief. To whom was it addressed to?

7 A. I know it was sent to us. Whether it was sent to anyone else, I

8 don't know. For a while, this order was on the desk of the duty officer

9 at the prison.

10 Q. And, as a result of this order, did you -- you said that there

11 was a change. Was there anybody to prevent those soldiers from entering

12 the prison?

13 A. No.

14 Q. But, to your knowledge, shortly after this document was issued,

15 the incursions ceased?

16 A. Yes. Not immediately, but they were reduced in scale. Sometime

17 -- and it's hard to say exactly when, but I think the last raid happened

18 in July.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, considering the that the witness

20 had received the document at the time and he recognises it, may I ask for

21 the document to be admitted.

22 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1305, Your Honours.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

25 Q. Mr. Vidic, you mentioned to us that there were beatings inside

Page 9318

1 the prison by the soldiers you described earlier. Were there any

2 examples or any occurrences of beatings by members of other

3 organisations?

4 A. No, not that I know.

5 Q. Was there examples of prison guards beating prisoners?

6 A. There was one case.

7 Q. And what happened to that case?

8 A. We had one guard who hailed from the area of Knin, and when there

9 was a mass exodus of population from Knin, he came into the compound,

10 took out a prisoner, and used physical force against him.

11 Q. What happened to that prisoner?

12 A. The next morning, that prisoner was found dead.

13 Q. And what did you do about the guard?

14 A. He was suspended, and we informed the military court, because the

15 military court became involved, and the prisoner was under the

16 jurisdiction of the military court. We also informed the prosecutor's

17 office and the MUP, and an order was given to conduct a post mortem.

18 Q. When did this happen? First of all, was it in 1992?

19 A. No. No, that was perhaps in the end of 1993 -- sorry, towards

20 the end of 1992 or early 1993. I can't say precisely.

21 Q. Besides this guard, do you know if any measures were taken

22 against the other persons who were beating prisoners inside the prison?

23 A. We were not able to take any steps against any of the others who

24 were members of paramilitary organisations. This one man was our own

25 guard, and we did what we could against him, and what was our duty to do.

Page 9319

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Demirdjian, I was just wondering about the

2 information that the witness just gave to us. Namely, that the case was

3 brought to the military court. Why was that? And not the civilian court

4 and the civilian prosecutor?

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: We may have a document that will clarify this

6 later on.

7 Q. But right now, Mr. Vidic, if can you help the Trial Chamber

8 understand why was the case of this guard taken before the military

9 court?

10 A. Among all those people who had been brought in were a number of

11 persons against whom criminal reports were filed within the basic court

12 in Doboj and the other group of prisoners for whom reports were filed

13 with the military court. So, therefore, we had both military and

14 civilian prisoners. This particular prisoner that we just mentioned was

15 captured as a member of the HVO.

16 Q. Very well.

17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, I will have some documents to

18 clarify this later on with the criminal reports.

19 Q. Mr. Vidic, did there come a time when you met members of the

20 Crisis Staff in Doboj?

21 A. Sometimes.

22 Q. Can you describe to the Trial Chamber in what circumstances you

23 met with the Crisis Staff.

24 A. Once Slavuljica decided to leave the prison and join the army, he

25 went to the Crisis Staff, and then after he came back, he told me that I

Page 9320

1 was appointed commissioner.

2 I asked Slavuljica whether there was any document to that effect,

3 but he said there wasn't. There wasn't any decision or written decision.

4 Due to that, I went to the Crisis Staff, where I was given a piece of

5 paper on which it was written that I was appointed commissioner at the

6 district prison in Doboj.

7 Q. And who did you meet to receive this piece of paper?

8 A. This piece of paper was given to me by Vlado Djurdjevic [phoen].

9 Q. And what was his function in Doboj?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. Was he a member of any organisation?

12 A. I don't know that either.

13 Q. And the document was signed by whom?

14 A. By himself.

15 Q. Now, when I was asking you about whether you met members of the

16 Crisis Staff, are we to understand that this person was a member of the

17 Crisis Staff?

18 A. I suppose so. He was there in the building where the

19 Crisis Staff was headquartered.

20 Q. And where was the building of the Crisis Staff headquartered?

21 A. In the building of the railway transport company. It is situated

22 across the street from the prison.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I would like for 65 ter 3538 to be displayed on

25 the screen, please.

Page 9321

1 Q. Mr. Vidic, this document dated from the 15th of July, 1992, do

2 you recognise it?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go to the bottom of that page, please. I

5 apologise, in the B/C/S version, the next page.

6 Q. Is that your signature?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can we go back to the first page.

9 Q. Now, the header here says that it was addressed to the Presidency

10 of the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, Banja Luka.

11 Can you please explain that to us.

12 A. I can't. I can't. It was a long time ago. Probably we received

13 this circular or letter from the Ministry of Justice. But why it all

14 happened, it would be inappropriate for me to comment. Probably the new

15 ministry instructed us to send this to the address that you see here.

16 Q. All right. Now, we do see here that Mr. Slavuljica, acting

17 prison warden was an officer of Serbian army at the front. And we see

18 next to your name the word "commissioner."

19 Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. I apologise. By this time, Mr. Slavuljica was not at the prison

22 anymore?

23 A. No.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we turn to the next page in the B/C/S

25 version; and in the English version, can we turn to page 3.

Page 9322

1 And I refer to the paragraph beginning with:

2 "Doboj district prison has been operating in wartime conditions

3 since 3 May 1992."

4 Q. Do you see the second sentence, Mr. Vidic, which begins with:

5 "Given the impossibility of contacting the Ministry of Justice ..."

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Could you read the rest of that sentence to us, please.

8 A. "Given the impossibility of contacting the Ministry of Justice,

9 it has constantly worked in accordance with the regulations in force and

10 the instructions of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of

11 Doboj, although there are persons detained in part of the prison without

12 a decision on detention."

13 Q. At that time, does this mean that there was still people detained

14 without the adequate paperwork?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If you go down to two paragraphs below the sentence beginning

17 with: "For example on 30 May ..."

18 Does it say that: "Food was provided for 500 persons," and

19 currently for 550 persons along with the prison staff?

20 A. That's what it says here.

21 Q. Can you describe to us who these 500 persons are.

22 A. I'm talking here about foodstuffs without mentioning either the

23 number of employees or prisoners, et cetera. Again, I cannot give you

24 any dates, but for a period of time we prepared and cooked food for the

25 police. Since we were one among the few institutions in this compound

Page 9323

1 that had a cauldron for cooking large quantities of food.

2 So for a short period of time we provided them with meals, but

3 who exactly these meals went to, we didn't know exactly, whether it went

4 to the military barracks in Bare, actually.

5 I don't know. Later on, there were some detainees at Usora as

6 well, but none of our personnel was there. We only provided food for

7 that location.

8 Q. Therefore, you are not able to tell us what is -- what are those

9 500 persons exactly.

10 A. No, I can't. Except for those who were there in the prison and

11 the prison staff.

12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If we can go back to the first page of this

13 document in both versions.

14 Q. The first line of the document reads:

15 "Regarding the circular by the Ministry of Justice, number

16 01/2-3/92."

17 Is it the case that you were replying to a request from the

18 Ministry of Justice?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may I ask for this document to be

21 admitted.

22 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1306, Your Honours.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display now 65 ter 3534.

25 Q. Mr. Vidic, have you seen this document before?

Page 9324

1 A. I don't remember. It is possible.

2 Q. What is the reference number on the document?

3 A. 01/2-3/92.

4 Q. What is the date of the document?

5 A. 13th of February, 1992.

6 Q. We'll come to that date now.

7 The document is addressed to lower and higher courts and public

8 prosecutors. And if we go to the bottom of that page, it is addressed to

9 Doboj, Teslic, Derventa, and Modrica. And if we go to page 2 of that

10 document it appears to be -- the signature box has the name of

11 Mr. Momcilo Mandic, minister of justice.

12 If you look at the paragraph and if we go back to the top of the

13 page in English --

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No, no, go back to the top of page 2 but the top

15 of the page. Thank you.

16 Q. Could you read the beginning of the paragraph right after the

17 word "Modrica," Mr. Vidic. The paragraph that begins with: "Please

18 submit ..."

19 A. "Please submit a list of all workers (by name) to this Ministry

20 by 16 July 1992 and specify the president of the court, the judge, the

21 public prosecutor, and the deputy prosecutor, the warden of the prison,

22 as well as other workers with university education, training, VKV and KV,

23 as well as the number of the Giro accounts into which we will pay wages.

24 "Furthermore" --

25 Q. You can stop there. We can see the rest.

Page 9325

1 Mr. Vidic, here the request is to provide this information by

2 16th of July. And at the top of the letter, it says 13th of February.

3 Would allow that there is an error in the date at the top of the

4 document?

5 You can scroll up in the B/C/S version at the top of the

6 document.

7 A. As I said, I don't remember this letter. And it says here who

8 the addressees are. It says to higher court and lower and public

9 prosecutor's offices, et cetera. It doesn't say that it should be sent

10 to Doboj.

11 As far as this date is concerned, I honestly don't remember.

12 Q. And if you remember the prior document, it did refer to a

13 circular of the Ministry of Justice with the same number. When you

14 provided that information to the Ministry of Justice, do you remember a

15 document coming to you ordering you or requesting this information, the

16 list of staff members in your prison?

17 A. I really don't remember. I didn't provide an answer just out of

18 the blue. It was probably in response to the request by the ministry.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, we will have another witness who

20 will -- who can authenticate this document. But at this time, I'm open,

21 I'm in your hands. We can admit, unless there is an objection by the

22 Defence.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we do not object to this document

24 being admitted, and we confirm that -- that obviously it's a typo,

25 because it refers to the Serbian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

Page 9326

1 it's signed by Mr. Momcilo Mandic as minister of justice of -- of Serbian

2 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we know that it is probably the 13th

3 of July, 1992, instead of 13th of February. So we don't -- we do not

4 object that this document be admitted at this point.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Then I seek to --

6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1307, Your Honours.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

9 Q. Mr. Vidic, in relation to your contacts with the Ministry of

10 Justice, did you -- were in touch with any members of the ministry? And

11 for the period of time, I'm talking about from the time that you were in

12 charge of the prison.

13 A. I had tried to get in touch with the minister. I called Pale and

14 on one occasion, they gave me a number somewhere in Belgrade. I got in

15 touch with the minister and -- but as soon as we started talking, the

16 line was broken, and that was the last time that I spoke to him.

17 Q. Did you make any other attempts to get in touch with members of

18 the Ministry of Justice?

19 A. Yes, there were attempts of that sort. When the presidents of

20 the courts in Doboj and the prosecutor discussed among themselves about

21 being obliged to do something and that they should get in touch with the

22 ministry and seek support from some quarters, both economic and

23 political, that we should have someone behind us. And that is when we

24 reached an agreement, and I agreed to go to Pale on behalf of the prison,

25 and the prosecution and another lady who was in charge of finances. And,

Page 9327

1 of course, there was a driver with us.

2 Q. When did you go to Pale?

3 A. I don't remember when it was exactly, but it could have been,

4 let's say, between the 8th and the 15th of August.

5 Q. And just to be clear, which year are we talking about?

6 A. 1992.

7 Q. And do you remember which building in Pale you went to?

8 A. To Bistrica Hotel.

9 Q. And did you meet with anyone in Pale?

10 A. Yes, I did. But none of those with whom I had originally

11 intended to meet. I met Mrs. Biljanja Brkic [phoen] who was working at

12 the time at the Ministry of Justice.

13 Q. What was her role?

14 A. I wouldn't know. But she definitely was not in the department

15 for the execution of criminal sanctions.

16 Q. And did you have any discussions with her about the situation in

17 Doboj?

18 A. Yes. I had to tell her about the purpose of my visit.

19 Q. And could you explain to the Trial Chamber what you told her

20 exactly. What was the purpose of your visit?

21 A. The purpose of this visit was primarily to find someone who would

22 provide either the money or the food for the prisoners. And also to find

23 someone who would give us information and to give us some guidance,

24 because the documents that we received with the prisoners were

25 incomplete.

Page 9328

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display 65 ter 35 -- 3537, please.

2 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you receive it in 1992?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. And is this the -- your official appointment as warden of the

7 prison in Doboj?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May this be admitted, Your Honours.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1308, Your Honours.

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display 65 ter 3071.

14 Q. Do you recognise this document, sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was the purpose of this decision? If you know.

17 A. I -- no. It is obvious that this was typed as a kind of template

18 for each institution. However, the truth is, that the Doboj district

19 prison is the only penal and correctional facility that continued to

20 operate while the other institutions were being in the process of being

21 setting up. It was only the district prison in Doboj in 1992, at the

22 beginning of war, already had on its premises the convicts, the persons

23 who had already been sentenced, and other prisoners.

24 Q. Was this document delivered to you at the time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9329

1 Q. And, to your knowledge, were you told why this decision was

2 issued? If the prison already existed at the time, why was this issued

3 to you?

4 A. No, I wasn't told. And I didn't even ask. I didn't think it was

5 relevant.

6 Q. And does -- if we can go to the second page, please.

7 Who -- do we see that this document is signed by

8 Dr. Radovan Karadzic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that this document was to be entered in the Official Gazette

11 of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May we admit this document, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1309, Your Honours.

16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we please display on the screen

17 65 ter 3531.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, you told us that the warden of the prison was

19 bound by -- bound to report to the Ministry of Justice. We have a

20 document here of the 12th of December, 1992. Subject is: Information on

21 the situation in Doboj district prison.

22 First of all, do you recognise this document?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Is this your document?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9330

1 Q. At the bottom of the first paragraph, paragraph headed:

2 Information on the establishment, you provide a historic on the

3 establishment of the prison and the last part of the sentence reads that:

4 "... existing penal and correctional institutions ... including

5 Doboj district prison, were taken over by and continued operating as

6 organs of the state administration of Republika Srpska."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that a reflection of the -- the decision we saw issued by

9 Dr. Karadzic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now section -- paragraph 3: Information on detainees. It reads,

12 as you were telling us, that on the 2nd of May there were 24 detainees in

13 the prison, among whom 11 were in custody, 11 were imprisoned pending

14 appeal, and two were convicted.

15 If we go to the second page in English, we can keep it -- we can

16 keep the B/C/S there. It continues and says that:

17 "From 2nd of May, there were about 1.000 persons in and out of

18 the prison."

19 You wrote this document. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did you base this figure of 1.000 persons? What was it

22 based on?

23 A. It was based on these provisional documents that we ourselves set

24 up and on the basis of the orders that we received from the police.

25 However, although I say here 1.000 individuals, there were

Page 9331

1 definitely people who came in two or three times, the same people.

2 Q. I understand.

3 Section 4 deals with the conditions of accommodation and living.

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Demirdjian, could we ask what is meant by

5 1.000 persons in and out of the prison.

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Vidic, you heard Judge Delvoie's question. What do we mean

8 by 1000 persons in and out?

9 A. That means they were admitted and released.

10 Q. And at the time that you drafted this document, you say here that

11 there were still 111 persons in the prison?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. With regards to section 4 of your report, it refers to the visit

14 of International the Red Cross. Do you remember when the Red Cross

15 visited the prison?

16 A. I think it was in August or the beginning of September.

17 Q. Earlier during your testimony today, you mentioned UNHCR. Did

18 you mean that both organisations visited the prison, or was it one rather

19 than the other?

20 A. The International Red Cross visited the prison, while the UNHCR

21 supplied the region with food. All the food aid that arrived in Doboj

22 from this organisation was unloaded by convicts and uploaded again and

23 transported to destination; whereas, we received food for our own

24 prisoners.

25 Q. And approximately when did the UNHCR provide this food?

Page 9332

1 A. I -- I don't remember anymore.

2 Q. And if we look at the last page, please, in both English and

3 B/C/S.

4 Is that your signature, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, may that be admitted.

8 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1310, Your Honours.

10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours I'd like to now turn to the

11 log-books of the prison. I don't know how much time I left before the

12 break.

13 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] We are about -- it's

14 11.58, we break at 12.05.

15 Sorry. If you think it would be a more efficient use of time to

16 take the break now and pick up afterwards, we could break five minutes

17 early.

18 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I think that would be fine because we are

19 entering -- before we break, could I make sure that Your Honours have a

20 binders of the registers?

21 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The way that I'm going to be proceeding is the

23 following: Considering that these log-books are quite voluminous, we

24 will be referring to documents in e-court, cross-referencing them with

25 the log-books in front of you, so this is how I wish to proceed after the

Page 9333

1 break.

2 JUDGE HALL: Very well.

3 [The witness stands down]

4 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I continue, Your Honours?

8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

10 Just before we continue, a matter for the transcript Mr. Zecevic

11 brought to my attention. And at page 51, line 25, I was quoting from

12 P1310, paragraph 3. At line 25, it reads 11 were in chain of custody.

13 It was 11 were in custody. That's a typo in the transcript. We can see

14 it from the document.

15 At this stage could we display on the screen 65 ter 3079. And,

16 Your Honours, in your binders this is tab 3. And if I could have the

17 assistance of the usher, I have a binder for the witness as well. And if

18 we could turn -- change to tab 3 for the witness, please.

19 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell the Court what the document is?

22 A. This is a register of detainees.

23 Q. And on the cover page, it's a little bit erased, but it appears

24 that we start with the year 1989 until 1994; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9334

1 Q. If you turn to the next page --

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Now, Your Honours you will notice that because

3 the ERN numbers do not appear properly on this document, we paginated

4 them by hand. So we will follow the numbers.

5 And another comment is that, to save resources, the interpreters,

6 translators, translated only the names that were in Cyrillic. They

7 didn't re-type the names that were in Latin letters, and we will have to

8 do with what we have to go back and forth between the B/C/S and the

9 English.

10 Q. Mr. Vidic, I will ask you to turn to the detainee number 77,

11 which is on page 16. In English, the pages are off by one page, so that

12 would be page 17. Actually, it is page 16, I'm sorry. It is correct.

13 Now, we see that this individual by the name of

14 Rajko Kostasinovic [phoen] was detained on the 18th of April, 1992; is

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And next detainee, number 78, is detained on the 21st of May,

18 1992; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, first of all, who enters the details in this log-book?

21 A. Chief of the guard service.

22 Q. And, as you said, this is the log-book for - I apologise - the

23 detainees.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Yes. If you go to the next page, page 18, and as you go around

Page 9335

1 these pages, do you recognise the handwritings? Because now we are in

2 the month of 1992.

3 A. From number 87 on, is my handwriting.

4 Q. And if you turn the pages, can you tell us until when do we see

5 your handwriting?

6 A. Up to and inclusive with number 122.

7 Q. Now, this was not your -- this was not part of your regular

8 functions; is that right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Could you explain to the Court how it came that you had to enter

11 those names in the log-book?

12 A. Mr. Slavuljica was already gone. The colleague who was supposed

13 to stand in for the head of the guard service was away as well, and I

14 think he returned only in August, and when he returned, he continued to

15 make entries. And we, in the prison, employed only professionals. There

16 were very few of us, and that's how it happened, that I also made entries

17 in the book.

18 Q. Very well. Could you go to page 20 and look at detainees as of

19 number 96.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you see the name of Mr. Senad Mesic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, if you -- the row continues on page 21 for this individual's

24 detention. Does it indicate which organ issued the order for

25 imprisonment?

Page 9336

1 A. It says: "Lower court."

2 Q. In Doboj.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, this is one of those situations where I will ask to juggle

5 between the screen and the log-book.

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If Your Honours have the page open at page 20,

7 21, I would ask at the meantime to display on the screen, 65 ter 3524.

8 Q. Now, sir, this is a report we will see on the second page. On

9 the first page is says, Case against Senad Mesic, Esad Hidic et al.

10 If we can go to the second page, please, we see that this is

11 issued by the public security station in Doboj on 18th of May. This is a

12 criminal report, and the first individual there is Senad Mesic. Does the

13 details in this report, his date of birth, and place of birth, connect

14 with what is in the log-book as detainee number 96?

15 Is this the same person?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, in the log-book, we see that the date for the detention is

18 in parentheses, 17th of May, 1992. In the log-book at page 21. Do you

19 see the date in parentheses?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And above that we see a few entries where we have a date, and

22 below the date, we have another date in parentheses. Could you explain

23 to the Court why do we have these two dates in some situations and what

24 the parentheses mean?

25 A. That's because in this -- in these provisional records we were

Page 9337

1 keeping, when a person would be first brought in, we would note it down

2 this way. Although in the documents of the prosecutor's office and the

3 court, this date in brackets did not feature, but we noted it down just

4 to have a rough estimate before we find out the exact information,

5 because it's obvious that the court did not cover this time in which we

6 knew, from our records, that the person was detained.

7 Q. Now, the document from the public security station, Doboj, is the

8 18th of May, and the detention begins on the 17th of May.

9 Could you explain to the Court how it is that the individual

10 appears to be first detained and then this report comes the next day?

11 A. I cannot explain that.

12 Q. That's fine. We will have another witness to deal with this

13 document.

14 I will not go through all the names in this criminal report.

15 But, for example, if you look at number 3, under the number of

16 Murat Husakovic, do you see him also being included in your log-book at

17 number 97?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Your Honours, we will have another witness to authenticate this

20 document. But for this time, can we just mark it for identification?

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: What's the purpose if I may ask of -- what is it

22 that you wish to show with the -- with these log-books?

23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: At this time -- well, perhaps if we can ask the

24 witness -- not the log-book, Your Honour, I was just --

25 JUDGE HARHOFF: No, the register.

Page 9338

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The criminal report, yes.

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] The 65 ter 3524?

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, that's the one that I wish to MFI at this

4 time.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Which, if I'm not

6 wrong, is not on your list.

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: It is.

8 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] is it?

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Where is my list?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may be heard on the subject.

11 The Defence does not object if my learned friend wants to

12 introduce this document through this witness. So it doesn't need to be

13 MFI'd. It's a criminal complaint, and we don't see any problem with that

14 being tendered as evidence.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, just to answer Judge Delvoie's

16 question, you are quite right; this document is in Doboj package to be

17 tendered through the next witness. So I don't wish for it to be

18 tendered, I apologise. I just wanted to display it to the witness. But

19 you're quite right; it should have been on my list as a document to been

20 shown to the witness.

21 But, in any case, we have the person who drafted this criminal

22 report who will be able to -- yes. So just for reference purposes, if it

23 could be marked for identification for now.

24 JUDGE HALL: So marked.

25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1311, marked for identification,

Page 9339

1 Your Honours.

2 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, in response to Judge Harhoff's

3 question as to the purpose of this criminal report, that is the reason

4 why I wanted the witness to remove his headphones, it was to show the

5 ethnicity of the people against who measures were taken in May 1992.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: May I move on?

8 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please proceed.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, if we go back to the log-book to the detainee at

11 number 96, does it show that this detainee was released on the 9th of

12 March, 1993?

13 A. Yes. It says here in the log that he was transferred to the

14 military investigative prison in Banja Luka, military remand prison.

15 Q. Very well. I will ask you to turn now to page 30 of the log-book

16 and to look at detainees number 144 to 156.

17 Do you see that page?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you read the name of the first individual in detention.

20 A. Miroslav Pijunovic.

21 Q. And if go to the next page, page 32, so if you just flip the

22 page, all the way down to number 156, the first name on that at page 151

23 do you see as Dario Slavuljica?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I'm being told that it's not on the screen. If

Page 9340

1 we can go back to 65 -- 3079 on the screen, please.

2 Mr. Pantelic, you should have a log-book as well.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, but Mr. Pantelic was intervening on behalf of

4 our clients because they don't see it.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

6 I'm waiting for it to be displayed on the screen.

7 Q. Yes. The name at number 156, is it Zoran Sljuka?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, this group seems to have been detained as of the 17th of

10 July, 1992. Do you remember the circumstances of the detention of this

11 group?

12 A. A bit. It was rather guess-work, from what I remember about the

13 circumstances. And later there was media reporting about this group, and

14 I simply don't want to make a mistake, if I tell you anything specific

15 about what was happening at what time.

16 Q. And you said that these were reported in the media. How was this

17 group known? Were they known by a certain name?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you provide that name?

20 A. The Mice.

21 Q. While you have that page open, can we display on the screen

22 65 ter 859.

23 Sir, do you see the document on the screen?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It is a document issued by the Teslic Lower Court. Do you see

Page 9341

1 the reference number? And can you tell us the reference number, please.

2 A. KI33/92.

3 Q. It reads 33 in the transcript. Is that what you said?

4 A. 33 or 35. It's a bit fudged.

5 Q. I understand. And if you look at the log-book, back at the

6 log-book, for entry number 144, Miroslav Pijunovic, do you see the number

7 appear in your log-book?

8 A. Yes, 35.

9 Q. And in order for you to detain these individuals in the prison,

10 did you have to receive the decision from the Teslic Lower Court?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And do you remember receiving the document at that time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in relation to the person detained as number 151,

15 Dario Slavuljica, did you remember seeing him later in that year?

16 A. He later worked with us as a medical technician, but I can't tell

17 you as of which date.

18 Q. And -- very well.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could I ask for the Teslic Lower Court's

20 decision to be admitted.

21 Again it is on the other list, Mr. Demirdjian.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I have it on this list as 859. It is pretty

23 much the last document -- one of the last documents. You should see it

24 as tab 62, perhaps, 65 ter 859.

25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Tab 62.

Page 9342

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: If the tab numbers were sent, were they as well?

2 Yes.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're right. Sorry, my mistake.

4 JUDGE HALL: Sorry, could you assist me with where we are going

5 with this process. Like, for instance, the last document, the order of

6 court by which the particular person was -- was taken into the prison.

7 Does it -- we have testimony of the process already from the witness who

8 was on the stand --

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

10 JUDGE HALL: -- that ordinarily a person would only be received

11 into the prison on a warrant from the Court. I'm not sure about the

12 utility of, for example, exhibiting the particular court order in respect

13 of a particular witness. Is there a reason for that?

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour.

15 This document will be used with subsequent witnesses who can talk

16 about the procedure that took place in relation to the document, the way

17 it was drafted, the interviews with the detainees, and their subsequent

18 release. At this stage the only evidence that this witness can provide

19 is his angle, was that he received the court order and he detained the

20 individual. That's as far as we can take it with this witness.

21 JUDGE HALL: Even accepting that, to what end?

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. The issue in this case with relation to

23 this group was that in relation to their activities in the municipality

24 of Teslic, their arrest, their detention, and their release, and

25 ultimately the lack of measures taken against this group.

Page 9343

1 JUDGE HALL: And you -- you require for your case the documentary

2 support for the evidence that you are going to be leading orally from the

3 witnesses.

4 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, to corroborate what he is saying.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, with we not object that this document

7 be admitted on the record.

8 JUDGE HALL: Apart from that, what we're trying to understand is

9 whether this procedure is in dispute.

10 MR. ZECEVIC: No, it's not, as far as we are concerned. The only

11 thing is, if I may be of assistance to Your Honours, this decision is not

12 about the detention. This decision is initiation of the investigation

13 against this group.

14 So these people were already in detention. And by this decision

15 the -- the court initiates the investigating proceedings to establish

16 whether there is a foundation to -- to file the -- to proceed in the

17 criminal trial with these people.

18 So it is -- it is not disputed by us. It is just the completely

19 different aspect that we are -- that we are saying it shows, not what --

20 what my learned friend is stating.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, this is clearly a matter in

23 dispute between the parties. This is a -- the crimes committed by this

24 group is charged -- they are charged in the indictment. This goes to

25 prove the procedure that took place once this group was arrested, and,

Page 9344

1 obviously in our indictment, we are claiming that there was a lack of

2 measures taken against this group.

3 And this is why we need to show what was the procedure that was

4 actually taken and to show that we think that this is not the appropriate

5 measures.

6 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1312, Your Honours.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I am finished with the log-book that we have in

9 front of us, which was 65 ter 3079.

10 Q. I do have one question, Mr. Vidic. Apart from this group, the

11 Mice Group that we saw, apart from this group would it be fair to say

12 that as of the month of May 1992, the majority of the detainees were

13 non-Serb.

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honour, since the witness recognises the

16 log-book as belonging to the Doboj Central Prison, I would ask this

17 document to be admitted.

18 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: This log-book.

20 JUDGE HALL: Yes, admitted and marked.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1314 [sic], Your Honours.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: No objection, Your Honour.

23 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we display on the screen 65 ter 3570.

24 Q. Mr. Vidic, do you recognise this document?

25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 9345

1 A. Well, I saw it when shown by the investigator. I remember it

2 from that time.

3 Q. Very well. And this document is dated the 17th of July and

4 drafted by the Doboj High Court. It is again in relation to the

5 Mice Group that we were discussing earlier.

6 I would like, in the English version, to turn to page 2.

7 And in your language, sir, if you go to paragraph 4 which begins

8 with:

9 "Since the Doboj High Court has jurisdiction over the Serbian

10 municipality of Teslic ..."

11 Are you able to provide us any comments about this issue, the

12 issue of jurisdiction over Teslic?

13 A. District court had jurisdiction over the lower court in Teslic.

14 Q. And in this letter, the high court is proposing for the transfer

15 of the detainees to the Doboj prison. And the next paragraph reads:

16 "We shall transfer the said individuals at 1200 hours on the

17 18th of July, 1992, by our prison bus."

18 Can you provide the Trial Chamber with your views on what

19 happened?

20 A. I can't remember who told me and who asked us to provide one of

21 our buses, but I know that a bus went to Banja Luka and that these

22 detainees had arrived in Doboj before and the bus went back empty.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry to interrupt, but there is --

24 there might be a problem. Maybe I'm missing. I believe the log-book,

25 the previous document, was admitted and marked as P1314. But it should

Page 9346

1 be 1313, I believe. Because the previous document was 1312 so ...

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] Thank you. The

3 document is, indeed, 1313. I was intending to correct the transcript

4 next time.

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

6 Q. Mr. Vidic, can you see the signature block of this document at

7 the bottom? Perhaps if it could be zoomed on that.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, the last name is a little bit smudged, but what is the title

10 that will we see for the person who signs?

11 A. It says here the President of the Higher Court.

12 Q. We can see the first name. Are you able to tell us who was the

13 president of the high court at the time?

14 A. In the earlier days, there was commissioner, Miroslav Lazarevic.

15 And after that, for a while Goran Neskovic was president of the high

16 court. Followed by Sava Lejkovic [phoen]. Which one occupied the

17 position at what time, I couldn't say exactly.

18 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions on this document.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could it be admitted, please.

20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1314, Your Honours.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Could we now turn to tab 6 in your binders,

23 Your Honours, and that's 65 ter 3076. And if the witness could --

24 Q. Mr. Vidic, if could you can go to tab 6 in your binder, please.

25 A. Which tab?

Page 9347

1 Q. Number 6. Do you recognise this book?

2 A. It should be in this book. These records should be in this book.

3 Q. Yes, I'm sorry. I was just asking you if you recognise the book?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. What was the purpose of recording names in this book?

6 A. The purpose was for us to know who went out and who is supposed

7 to come back to prison.

8 Q. Now, this is a book that was kept in the prison?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And who was entering the data in this log-book?

11 A. The duty officer at the prison.

12 Q. If you look at the first page, after you turn the cover, and you

13 look at detainee number 2, what does this log-book tell us about his

14 movements?

15 A. It says that he had been taken to the MUP.

16 Q. Who would take the detainee to the MUP?

17 A. A MUP employee would come with an order for escorting this

18 person, and, on the basis of that order, he would take him out.

19 Q. Do you see his name repeated at number 6?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At number 13?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. On the following page, do you see it repeated at 33 and 44?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is it correct that each time, he is taken to the MUP?

Page 9348

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On -- on the page that starts with detainee number 31, we see

3 next to detainee number 37, the name Lugonjic. Who -- do you know who

4 Lugonjic is?

5 A. I can't see the name of Lugonjic. I don't know who that person

6 is anyway.

7 Q. Very well. I will ask you to -- well, first of all, do you see

8 the name? It's number 37, Hasan Omerasevic and if you continue along the

9 line, you see under the comments, "Taken to work to the MUP." And you

10 see "Lugonjic."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But you're telling us you don't know that person.

14 A. No, I don't.

15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

17 Q. Sir, could you go to page 5, which starts with detainee

18 number 118 -- I apologise, page 3. Page 3 which begins with detainee

19 number 60. And go down to detainee number 82.

20 Do you see the name at number 82?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who was the person by the name of Karlo Grgic?

23 A. He was the police station deputy commander.

24 Q. And this was prior to the war?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9349

1 Q. Does this log-book show that he was taken out on the 12th of

2 May and returned on the 15th of May?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And does it say that he was taken to the MUP for interview?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now I will ask you to go to page 6, entry number 147.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Mr. Demirdjian.

8 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: I don't think you are right. I don't think you are

10 right. I believe the -- the entry at 81 says, At 9.15. And then that

11 "at" was copied afterwards.

12 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: The "at" for the date, 15th of May, which is

13 copied --

14 MR. ZECEVIC: No, I don't think so. I think it's the 12th of

15 May, and it says "at 9.15."

16 And there's no date.

17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I was talking about, first of all, number 82.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: [Microphone not activated] I know, but if it is --

19 if -- if this sign in 82, it copies the previous entry. And the previous

20 entry, as I can see, says "at 9.15."

21 So it might be the 12th of May he was taken at 9.00, the

22 number 81, and returned at 9.15.

23 That's -- that's what I -- what I noted.

24 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Let's clarify this with the witness.

25 Q. Mr. Vidic, detainee number 80, Nadja Seric, on what date was that

Page 9350

1 person returned to the prison?

2 A. It says here the 15th of May.

3 Q. Detainee number 81, Fadil Ahmic. On what date was he returned to

4 the prison?

5 A. Apparently one cannot say precisely by looking at this. It is

6 clear that he came back at quarter past 9.00.

7 Q. Now, what does little sign mean? Or the date? Those quotation

8 marks, or those little lines.

9 A. That's why I'm saying, that one cannot say precisely. This sign,

10 ditto, means that it is identical to the previous one. I think that

11 Fadil was taken at 9.15, only the date was not recorded here.

12 Q. And the ditto, is it a ditto for the date that is above? What

13 was the ditto used for?

14 A. It's the handwriting of one and the same person. And I can only

15 suppose that Fadil Ahmic was taken out on the 12th of May at 9.00 and

16 that he was returned on the same day at quarter past 9.00.

17 Q. Now, at what time was he taken out on the 12th of May?

18 A. At 9.00.

19 Q. And if you look at Karlo Grgic just below, on what day was he

20 taken out?

21 A. The 12th of May.

22 Q. Isn't there a ditto right there?

23 A. Yes, there is.

24 Q. And doesn't the ditto repeat the date above?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9351

1 Q. Wouldn't the same be replicated in the next column?

2 JUDGE HALL: But this is still open to interpretation, isn't it?

3 Because if you go over the page, the column which seems to suggest date

4 on which they returned are dates earlier than the 15th.

5 So notwithstanding the dittos that appear from 81 going down, it

6 appears, and perhaps this is something that the witness could explain,

7 that the date 15/5 where it first appears seems sort of out of sync with

8 the dates that follow it over the page.

9 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.

10 Q. Mr. Vidic, how would the ditto be used generally? What is it

11 referring to?

12 A. To put it simply there was no strict rule and there was no

13 obligation to put the full date always or to use this sign ditto. It was

14 left to the discretion of every person who kept these records. So I

15 believe that you will find plenty of examples like this, both in this

16 document and in other documents.

17 MR. PANTELIC: And, I mean, in order to clarify as much as

18 possible now in-chief, I just suggest to go through other entries, which

19 is above, and there is a pattern, there is a logic. For example, the

20 same day and only the changes in the time, so maybe it's a typo there, or

21 I don't know. I don't want to speculate, really. But we have a much

22 stronger pattern above all these entries, which -- which is logical. I

23 really don't want to -- to waste time, and I'm, again, sorry to interrupt

24 my learned friend.

25 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.

Page 9352

1 Q. Just to clarify the matter, Mr. Vidic, it appears that, if we

2 look at the chronological order, the dates above are the 10th, the 11th,

3 and then there is a skip to the 15th.

4 Could that be an error?

5 A. It's possible.

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Overlapping speakers]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, a mistake is possible.

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 JUDGE HARHOFF: I guess, the issue --

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Sorry.

11 There is -- there could be some logic now if you are -- if you

12 are getting somebody out in the first column on the 12th, and all these

13 dates in this column are sequential, if it doesn't come back but on the

14 15th and you have people going out on the 12th and on the 13th - next

15 page --

16 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

17 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- then it is quite normal that the 15 comes

18 before the -- the date of re-entry from the man who goes out on the 12th

19 or on the 13th.

20 So the fact that the 15th is here not sequentially in -- in this

21 column, doesn't mean it's an error.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE HARHOFF: I guess the issue it whether the ditto signs

24 refer to the information above or refer to the horizontal information

25 that -- in the other column.

Page 9353

1 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Vidic, you have something to add.

5 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Vidic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe this is obviously a

7 mistake. Nadja was taken out on the 12th of May and was taken back on

8 the 15th.

9 If we look that the whole column beneath her name is identical.

10 If you look at number 81 to 88, they all were taken out on the 12th. But

11 it seems from here that they were all brought back on the 15th. But the

12 next column, you see different purposes, loading goods, going to MUP,

13 et cetera. To me, it tells me that this is a mistake in the date.

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Very well.

15 Q. Mr. Vidic, can you turn to page 6 of the log-book and look at

16 entry number 147.

17 Do you see the name?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it the same name, Mr. Karlo Grgic?

20 Now on this occasion --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I apologise. On this occasion, where was he taken?

23 A. To hospital.

24 Q. From which day to which day?

25 A. From the 16th to the 19th of May.

Page 9354

1 Q. Do you recall Mr. -- at the time, in 1992, these events when

2 Mr. Grgic was taken to the hospital?

3 A. I remember that period, but who can possibly remember so many

4 people, where they were taken to, and on what date. I only remember that

5 there were people who were taken to hospital in that period.

6 Q. And do you remember for what reason they were taken to the

7 hospital?

8 A. They were taken because of the injuries that they had sustained.

9 Q. Do you know where they sustained those injuries?

10 A. Well, I cannot say anything about that. Probably in prison.

11 Q. The last entry I want to refer to is on page 12. Detainees as of

12 number 312. And 312 to 321.

13 You see as of Bajro Huditi, all the way down to 321, Karlo Grgic,

14 what is the first comment in the next column, 24th of May? What does it

15 say?

16 A. Taken to work.

17 Q. And right next to that in big letters what is written there?

18 A. Released.

19 Q. Do you remember the circumstances of the release of this group?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Your Honours, there are many other entries, but

22 at this time, I will seek to tender this document.

23 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1315, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE HALL: And I would remind counsel that the three hours that

Page 9355

1 were granted for this witness would be exhausted by 1.30 which is in

2 13 minutes.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I plan on finishing by that time, Your Honours.

4 Q. Sir, can we now go to --

5 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Well, Your Honours, before I continue, this was

6 the document that was shown to the witness yesterday, if you remember we

7 marked it for identification. The witness marked names with a red, with

8 a cross. This is the same document. Now if we can have both versions

9 admitted now that the witness has authenticated this document. The

10 version marked by the previous witness and this unmarked version, as

11 well.

12 It was P1299, MFI.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I apologise. That -- I retract what I just

16 said. It's another log-book. I will get to that one now. I apologise.

17 It is it tab number 5. This is the one that I'm talking about

18 now. 65 ter 3075. This is the one that was shown to the witness

19 yesterday, but I will show him now the unmarked version.

20 Q. Sir, this is another log-book. Do you recognise it?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Was this kept in the prison?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And who was in charge of entering names in this book?

25 A. If it is a book, then that would be the head of the guard

Page 9356

1 service.

2 Q. And if you look through the pages of this book, what was the

3 purpose of keeping this book, in comparison to the others?

4 A. These are records that we established on our own. It is not

5 statutory. So, if this was a book, this was taken by the head of the

6 guard service. However, since I see that this is a makeshift book, this

7 was being kept by the prison duty officer.

8 Q. And does this book show the date when a detainee was detained and

9 released?

10 A. Yes, it does.

11 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No more questions for this document. Could it

12 be admitted, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

14 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Sir, could we go to tab 4, please. And that is

15 65 ter --

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Could we have the exhibit number, please, first.

17 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. And Mr. Smith.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1316, I apologise.

19 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: And Mr. Smith has reminded me that now would be

20 the time to admit the MFI from yesterday, 1299.

21 JUDGE HALL: We lift the MFI.

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Right. 65 ter 2798, tab 4.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: I would, just for the clarity of the record, and I

24 will it assist everybody, if my learned friend can read the 65 ter number

25 of 1299, which was MFI'd, and the -- and the document which was admitted

Page 9357

1 as P1316, so we can have a clear distinction between the two.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes. Yesterday, the document which was marked

4 as P1299 was 65 ter 10345. And today, it was 65 ter 3075. That was

5 admitted as P1316.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Vidic, do you recognise this book?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us what this book is.

9 A. This is another log-book that we established. It was not

10 prescribed by the rules and regulations. I would prefer to call it an

11 index book.

12 We tried to list all these names according to the alphabetical

13 order. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think that this book was

14 being kept until the end, so ...

15 Q. Just to clarify one matter that was raised yesterday, Mr. Vidic,

16 can you go to page 25 in the B/C/S version, which is page 20 in the

17 English version.

18 Now, detainee number 12. Do you see his name?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. What is the -- what is the name, please?

21 A. Ilija Tipura.

22 Q. Does it say that he was detained from the 4th of May until the

23 9th of September, 1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And just very quickly, what was the ethnic background of

Page 9358

1 Mr. Tipura?

2 A. He was a Croat.

3 Q. And what was the ethnic background of Mr. Grgic? I didn't ask

4 you -- I didn't ask you earlier.

5 A. A Croat.

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Can I ask for this document to be admitted,

7 Your Honours.

8 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1317, Your Honours.

10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Right. I have two topics to cover, and I will

11 be finished, Your Honours.

12 Q. Mr. Vidic, you told us that you had established some contact with

13 members of the MUP in Doboj. Can you tell us who were your contacts at

14 the MUP?

15 A. That was Obren who was the chief of the police station. He was

16 at the head of the criminal investigation department, or at least I think

17 so.

18 In the State Security Service, it was a man called Zivkovic,

19 first name Dusan or Dusko. And finally, Marko Mihajlcic.

20 Q. Did you interact with them during the months of May, June, July

21 1992?

22 A. Yes. Not often, but we did meet.

23 Q. What was the gist of your conversations with -- first of all, you

24 mentioned Obren, but his last name is not recorded. Can you give us his

25 full name, please.

Page 9359

1 A. His last name was Petrovic.

2 Q. And what was the gist of your conversation? What was the gist of

3 your conversation with Mr. Petrovic?

4 A. We had conversations that were identical, there was no difference

5 between our conversations. With all of them, I discussed these orders

6 for placing people into detention, and I insisted on this being done

7 according to the proper procedure. Because sometimes it happened that

8 these orders contained only the name, the signature, and the stamp.

9 There were quite a few cases where, in addition to the full name, there

10 was the date of birth. But, actually, it should also contain such

11 details as the father's name and date of birth, the place of birth, and

12 residential address.

13 So these are the topics that we discussed, but nothing

14 materialised as a result.

15 Q. And did you have the same sort of conversations with

16 Mr. Zivkovic?

17 A. As I said, I talked about these things with all of them.

18 Q. Did you discuss the conditions in the prison?

19 A. Well, certainly I did mention that in passing. But they were not

20 in a position to accommodate any of my requests.

21 Q. And what I mean by the conditions in the prison, I'm referring to

22 what you said earlier, in relation to people coming at night and beating

23 prisoners.

24 A. Oh, yes, that was common knowledge.

25 Q. And my last question, Mr. Vidic. We've seen all these log-books.

Page 9360

1 We've seen people taken to the hospital, and you've explained to us what

2 these were. Were any of these crimes, to your knowledge, ever processed

3 and tried criminally before a court? Except for the case that you

4 mentioned of the prison guard.

5 A. I know nothing about that.

6 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

7 questions.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vidic.

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: In regard to the -- the exhibit numbers,

10 Madam Registrar, could it that be we just gave two exhibit numbers to the

11 same document 1316 and 1317 to -- to 65 ter 3075?

12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Thank you.

14 JUDGE HALL: We have another 15 minutes before the ordinary time

15 for the -- for the adjournment. But I'm wondering whether, on the one

16 hand, counsel may think that little practical use can be made of that.

17 In any event, perhaps the witness could be -- the witness's endurance

18 need not be taxed to squeeze the additional 15 minutes of court time out

19 of today.

20 So perhaps we should take the adjournment to --

21 Pardon me?

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE HALL: Provided, of course, we can finish tomorrow, which

24 is --

25 I see that counsel requested five hours. Is that still your