Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9381

 1                           Monday, 3 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused Stanisic entered court]

 4                           [The accused Zupljanin not present]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 7     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 8     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.  Before I call for the appearances

11     for today, I note for the record that, today, and for the duration of

12     this week, we'll be sitting under the provisions of Rule 15 bis;

13     Judge Delvoie being absent.

14             And speaking of the rest of this week, when we adjourned on

15     Thursday, I indicated that for this week we would be sitting in the

16     afternoons.  I suppose everyone now would have seen the updated calendar

17     and would appreciate that for the remainder of this week we are scheduled

18     to sit in the mornings in Courtroom III.

19             Yes, may have I the appearances, please.

20             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner,

21     Belinda Pidwell, assisted by case manager Crispian Smith for the

22     Prosecution.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

24     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing

25     for Stanisic Defence this afternoon.  Thank you.

Page 9382

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

 2     Erin Dunnavant, and Stephanie Cagnet for Zupljanin Defence.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4             Is the Prosecution ready to have its witness take the stand?

 5     There are any matters that --

 6             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I notified the usher and the Registrar that I have

 8     two preliminary matters, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I proceed --

11             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Please proceed.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I will -- I will make the -- the

13     first -- the first submission in Serbian, in order to be clearly on the

14     record.

15             [Interpretation] Your Honours, a while ago, we discussed the

16     issue and the topic that I would like to inform the Trial Chamber about,

17     and at that time you suggested that the parties in the proceedings should

18     try and seek a solution and agreement on the issue by themselves.  We had

19     expected this problem to have been overcome; however, on Thursday, we

20     received information from the Prosecution in a letter sent by Ms. Korner

21     that this problem is still outstanding.

22             The issue is the objection on the part of the Prosecution for the

23     Defence to be -- to interview the witnesses upon their arrival in

24     The Hague.  The Prosecution claims that this practice allegedly

25     contributes to the witness's being nervous and under pressure, and that

Page 9383

 1     for that reason they allegedly give answers and different evidence from

 2     those contained in their statement, and that thereby they are not

 3     assisting the Trial Chamber or, according to the Prosecution, is such

 4     practice in the interests of justice.

 5             The Defence, however, asserts that nothing of the above is true.

 6     That is to say that our interviews with the witnesses who agree to be

 7     interviewed by the Defence, does not create any nervousness with the

 8     witnesses.  Quite the contrary.  The witnesses do not feel to be under

 9     any pressure whatsoever.  Quite the contrary.  And their evidence is the

10     result of the fact that the Defence puts questions to them and show them

11     documents that the Prosecution, for some reason, had omitted to show them

12     or to ask them specific questions.

13             I'm not going to go now into the reasons why the Prosecution

14     omits to ask questions that pop up quite naturally or why the Prosecution

15     fails to show to the witnesses all the relevant documents that this

16     particular witness can provide a comment or an explanation.

17             We maintain firmly that these interviews conducted by the Defence

18     with the Prosecution witnesses will primarily be of assistance to the

19     Trial Chamber in that it will get a fuller picture about the facts and

20     ultimately about the witness himself, and that -- that is in the best

21     possible interests of justice because the objective is to elicit from a

22     witness full answers about relevant facts, not only about the selected

23     facts that suit or corroborate the views of one of the parties or their

24     case theory.  We also believe that the Defence has the right to interview

25     Prosecution witnesses at the time and in the place that is the most

Page 9384

 1     practical both for the witness and the Defence.  This attitude of ours

 2     has been supported by the case law of this Tribunal.  For reference, I am

 3     -- will take the ruling of the Appeals Chamber in the case against Sefer

 4     Halilovic, dated the 21st of June, 2004, paragraph 12, which reads and

 5     I'm quoting:

 6             [In English] "Where a witness is listed by one party as expected

 7     to testify on its behalf with respect to certain issues, it does not

 8     necessarily follow that this witness will have no information of value to

 9     the opposing party on other issues related to the case.  The opposing

10     party may have a legitimate expectation of interviewing such witness in

11     order to obtain this information and thereby better prepare a case for

12     its client.  To deprive this expecting party of such ability would hand

13     an unfair advantage to the opposing party which would be able to block

14     its opponent's ability to interview crucial witnesses simply by placing

15     them on its witness list."

16             [Interpretation] I think that this ruling of the Appeals Chamber

17     completely supports the views proffered here by the Defence, both in our

18     previous submission and our today's submission.

19             I have to say, Your Honours, admittedly the Prosecution does not

20     object to interviewing the witnesses in principle, but it denies or

21     objects to the right of the Defence to exercising this right in The Hague

22     upon the arrival of the witnesses and prior to their testimony.

23             We have serious issues with these objections, and we claim that

24     the views of the witness does not change, but is rather supplemented by

25     being asked the questions to the witness which obviously are essential,

Page 9385

 1     and by the fact that relevant documents are shown to the witness.  Our

 2     fact is that when the Defence is interviewing the witness, whether it be

 3     a month, a week, or three days before the testimony, bears no effect on a

 4     witness's evidence.

 5             You will recall, Your Honours, that the Defence did not interview

 6     the last five Prosecution witnesses.  Three of the five have changed

 7     their evidence, and they explained to the Chamber that in the course of

 8     their testimony, for the first time, they had an opportunity to see

 9     certain documents that hadn't been shown to them beforehand that it

10     helped them to refresh the memory about the events that they were giving

11     testimony about.

12             In conclusion, Your Honours, you are aware of our situation with

13     regard to the resources and manpower at the disposal of the Defence, and

14     I'm not going to repeat that.  The Prosecution also knows that we are

15     using every adjournment to travel to the field and interview the

16     witnesses.  But also the fact is that the adjournments often coincide

17     with holidays, and in such situations, the witnesses do not find it

18     suitable or other reasons quoted for them to meet with the Defence.

19             This case happened in January, for example, when, due to the fact

20     that the roads were impassable, I had to postpone my trip to Bosnia and

21     the interviews that I had agreed and arranged with three witnesses.  The

22     same happened during the Easter breaks, when, of the three witnesses that

23     hi arranged interviews with I managed to interview only one.

24             I would particularly like to underline that according to the

25     statistics of 55 witnesses, that today's witness is the 55th.  That is to

Page 9386

 1     say, of the 54 witnesses that appeared so far, the Defence interviewed

 2     only 18 of them, which is slightly below 30 per cent, which I believe is

 3     quite reasonable and justified.

 4             And now, Your Honours, we believe that it is in the best

 5     interest, from the aspect of time and cost-saving, that we continue with

 6     this practice.  That is to say that the Defence be allowed to conduct an

 7     interview of a couple of hours with the witnesses upon their arrival in

 8     The Hague because it will cut the costs.  Because, first of all, all

 9     witnesses are coming here just to testify.  They have no other

10     commitments.  Secondly, the Defence can present to them hard copies of

11     all documents available in The Hague, and thereby it will enable these

12     witnesses to read them in full and to analyse them completely.

13             Your Honours, this is the problem that we are facing at the

14     moment.  I apologise for taking some time, but I thought it was necessary

15     for me to shed light on this problem because we already have a problem

16     with regard to the next witness, because the Prosecution is opposed to

17     our interviewing him here in The Hague.

18             Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, the -- apart from the record in this

20     trial now having the benefit of your considered views on this subject

21     which we thought had been resolved to the extent that the Chamber is

22     capable of resolving it as a matter of basic principle, do I understand

23     when you say the next witness, the witness that is scheduled for this

24     week, that there is a particular problem that you have in respect of this

25     witness?

Page 9387

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, I'm sorry, Your Honours, I meant the

 2     witness after the witness that is to appear today.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4             Ms. Korner, I'm sure that you have no -- you don't resist any of

 5     the general principles articulated by Mr. Zecevic.  But in terms of what

 6     I understand his immediate complaint to be, that is, to the facilitation

 7     of the witness that is next on your list, I assume that as the Chamber

 8     has indicated previously that this is something that counsel could work

 9     out on the ground, in consultation with the Registry between themselves.

10             MS. KORNER:  No.  Your Honours, firstly, I'm glad that

11     Mr. Zecevic started -- well, he started by reading out the judgement in

12     Halilovic, did make it clear that there is no question of us saying that

13     you cannot interview the witnesses whom we are about do call; it's the

14     timing.  And I'm sorry that it has to come up again, Your Honours.

15     Your Honours, did -- I believe, Judge Delvoie invited to power water, not

16     oil, on it.  And we have tried to arrive at a solution, but it is just

17     not possible.

18             Our objection as summarised perfectly adequately by Mr. Zecevic

19     is that the witnesses are not seen until the day before or the same day,

20     as has happened today, the witness was seen again this morning by

21     Mr. Zecevic.  And then we were given an opportunity to deal with some

22     rather important matters that came up last time.  It is the timing that

23     we really think is not assisting Your Honours to see what the witnesses

24     might be saying if they weren't under what, I think anybody would agree,

25     is pressure.  And thereby, the -- we say the interests of justice are

Page 9388

 1     being affected.

 2             Can I say just briefly, in respect of this, to show that -- this

 3     is -- I don't want to say it's a deliberate ploy, but it is clearly

 4     something that may concern Your Honours.

 5             Mr. Zecevic - I'm not sure whether Mr. Pantelic - wrote to us in

 6     October of 2008 and said that he wished to interview some 33 witnesses

 7     who were then on the witness list.  That was before the joinder.  Indeed,

 8     before I came into the case at all.  He was given the details of those

 9     who were prepared to speak to him.  The majority of those witnesses were

10     on the list in October and have remained on the list.  No attempt, as we

11     understand it, because we weren't informed of it, was made to contact any

12     of those witnesses between October 2008 and October 2009.  When we were

13     asked for a much longer list, because the witnesses had changed because

14     of Zupljanin, and again we gave the details of those who were prepared to

15     speak to the Defence.  No attempt whatsoever was made by the

16     Stanisic Defence to get in touch with these witnesses as far as we know

17     because we have to be informed by the terms Your Honours' ruling.  In

18     each and every case, they wait until the witness is due to testify.

19             Your Honours, the explanation for that, and I accept, is that

20     they don't employ an investigator.  But they employ lawyers instead.  And

21     if that's their decision, well, then a lawyer can go and interview these

22     witnesses.

23             As far as the last five witnesses are concerned -- can I go into

24     private session for a moment.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we revert to private session.

Page 9389

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Page 9390

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 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'll simply repeat what I said a

 7     moment ago.

 8             It is -- as I say, it doesn't sake rocket science to see that

 9     these witnesses are making sometimes dramatic alterations from what they

10     have said originally either in interviews with the OTP or indeed in

11     testimony.  And today's witness is -- is one.  And Your Honours will have

12     to go through the three changes that he -- he's made to his original

13     testimony.

14             Your Honours, the other added matter is that it really is

15     pressure for witnesses to be sat down by the OTP and asked to go through

16     a number of documents and then either before or after to have to do the

17     same with the Defence.  We say the Defence can split their resources if

18     they want to, can send out Mr. Zupljanin's two or three investigators to

19     -- to see these people on behalf of both defendants.  But we say that it

20     is a proper thing for us to object to, is this bringing them up and then

21     turning them over to the Defence just before they testify.

22             And, Your Honours, the only reason we have raised it is we cannot

23     agree on this.  It is our view that it is contrary to the interests of

24     justice.  The Defence dispute that.  And it's a matter we are going to

25     ask Your Honours to rule on.  If Your Honours order us as far as -- I

Page 9391

 1     don't know that you can actually order us to do it.  But, nonetheless, if

 2     you make it clear that you expect us to continue with this practice of

 3     bringing witnesses up in advance sufficient for the Defence to see them,

 4     despite the submissions we have made, then we'll continue to do it.  Our

 5     view is that this can be down either by a lawyer or an investigator in

 6     advance of -- of testimony, at least a week in advance.  Because the

 7     Defence know well in advance who we will be calling, subject to changes.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  I think, Ms. Korner, that you put your finger on the

 9     problem that, as I perceive it to be, that is the -- what the Chamber is

10     empowered to order.  And like any court anywhere, we have no intention of

11     acting in vein.  And we aren't going to purport to do something that we

12     have no power to enforce.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, what I'm saying, even if you don't

14     actually have the power -- and under, I think it's Rule 54, you have the

15     power to regulate virtually everything that comes before the Court.  If

16     you make it clear that despite what we have said, that you think there is

17     merit in what Mr. Zecevic has argued, then regardless of our view that we

18     think that this is not a proper way of dealing with it, we will continue

19     to call the witnesses here in advance, subject to, you know, complaints

20     by VWS and all the rest of it.

21             JUDGE HALL:  My earlier reference to the Registry was, of course,

22     that portion of the Registry being VWS, which, of course, would have --

23     although it would -- acted the directions Trial Chamber, but the

24     budgetary implications of all this is something that the Chamber could

25     not -- could not not bear in mind.

Page 9392

 1             MS. KORNER:  So far --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  I use a double negative deliberately.

 3             MS. KORNER:  So far, Your Honours, VWS or nobody seems to have

 4     brought to the attention of the court that obviously bringing them up in

 5     time for the Defence to see them is costing a lot more because they are

 6     staying here longer, and therefore they get more daily subsistence

 7     allowance and the like.

 8             But, Your Honour, so leaving that aside for a moment, as I say,

 9     if Your Honours express the view that there is merit in what Mr. Zecevic

10     says and that any drawbacks do not outweigh what he says, well, then,

11     we'll continue to do it.  So it really is as simple as that.

12             But we thought it was important that Your Honours should be able

13     to consider whether this is -- this is your being helped by this

14     practice.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Well, counsel having raised the matter

16     again, we would, of course, first of all, remind ourselves of what this

17     Chamber would have said when this issue was last canvassed and also take

18     on board the views of the Tribunal -- what the jurisprudence of the

19     Tribunal is.  And, if necessary, we would speak to this matter again.

20             But I propose to leave it there for the time being.

21             MS. KORNER:  I think the reason Mr. Zecevic wanted it raised

22     today is the witness who is going do appear next week, if he is to be

23     interviewed by the Defence as they request, and he accedes to here, then

24     he will have to brought up at least a day earlier than he would otherwise

25     be brought up.

Page 9393

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, I should have been more clear when I said for

 2     the time being.  I didn't mean I would just leave the matter unresolved.

 3     But bearing in mind that the witness who was scheduled to testify today

 4     will be with us for the duration of the week, it is something that we

 5     will look at over the next day or two.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm thankful to Your Honours for that.  Now the

 7     second preliminary matter, I think it's going to be much shorter, and I

 8     think we have the agreement with the Office -- with our friend from the

 9     Prosecution side.  Namely, here is the problem:  We received the 92 ter

10     package list for the coming witness, and I note that in this 92 ter

11     package list, his statement given here in The Hague on the 25th of

12     March 2010, after the proofing session, if Your Honours remember, he gave

13     a statement where he changed his -- his position on certain -- three

14     questions, which -- which are part of his 92 ter package.

15             Now, if -- if I correctly understand, the practice of the

16     Trial Chamber is all that proofing notes are disclosed to the -- to the

17     Chamber, to the Bench.  Now, this is his statement, he gave this

18     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor.  It's a signed statement.  It

19     clearly contradicts some part of his testimony under 92 ter -- which is

20     contained in the 92 ter package, and therefore I -- I requested from --

21     from my friends from the Prosecution the explanation why this particular

22     statement is not part of the 92 ter package, because I think - and I hope

23     you will agree with me - that this is the only logical way how we can

24     proceed.  If we want to have him as 92 ter witness.

25             Thank you.

Page 9394

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Before I call on Ms. Korner, Mr. Zecevic, you, of

 2     course, have the statement.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Which you understand to contradict in part a portion

 5     of the 92 ter package.  And you were able to make such use of it in

 6     cross-examination as you choose.  But you go further than that.  You're

 7     saying that this has to be part of the -- because it modifies the --

 8     yeah.  Thank you.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, we have no objection.  I don't think

10     it occurred to us because we were just using the same 92 ter package from

11     before, and indeed it is absolutely clear that when I go through the --

12     the - I was going to say the song and dance routine - the routine of

13     asking about the 92 ter transcript, I'm going have deal with the fact

14     that he now says this is wrong.  And I think Your Honours are going to

15     have to see the actual parts.  So clearly I think it should go in, and we

16     just didn't think about that.

17             JUDGE HALL:  For my own edification, Ms. Korner, do I understand

18     your position, and inferentially I gather that to be Mr. Zecevic's

19     position, that the architecture of 92 ter includes, as in this case,

20     where a witness makes a subsequent statement modifying in part or in

21     whole what is in the 92 ter package, that that statement becomes part of

22     the package?

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

Page 9395

 1             Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Now are we ready to have the usher escort the

 3     witness to the stand.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, could you make the solemn declaration, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

12             What is your name, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Momcilo Mandic.

14             JUDGE HALL:  And could you tell us your date of birth, your

15     profession, and your ethnicity.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 1st of May, 1954.

17     I'm a Serb by ethnicity.  And I have a university degree in law.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             The -- you would have testified previously before this Tribunal,

20     and, therefore, I need only remind you of the procedure which - and,

21     again, you being a lawyer by profession - would not be unfamiliar with

22     the practice of courts generally, that the side calling you would begin,

23     in this case the Prosecution.  The Defence would have a right to

24     cross-examine, and then the Bench may have questions before you are

25     released as a witness.

Page 9396

 1             Having testified previously before this Tribunal, you are called

 2     under an expedited Rule, which means that the Prosecution would be

 3     permitted to rely substantially on your previous testimony and would

 4     bring such of that previous testimony, as is relevant to the present

 5     trial, home to these proceedings by the questions it has of you, and to

 6     that extent, they have requested and been granted by the Chamber

 7     six hours to cross-examine you -- sorry, to lead you in-chief.

 8             The Defence cumulatively have -- have been allowed ten hours in

 9     cross-examination, and under the present schedule we -- we expect --

10     sorry.  Ten plus two hours.  And under the present schedule, we expect

11     that you would be on the stand as a witness for most of this week.

12             The --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I address you

14     just with a few words?

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

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Page 9397











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Page 9398

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

20                           Examination by Ms. Korner:

21        Q.   Mr. Mandic, just so you are aware, the matter has been raised as

22     Their Honours said with the Registry here, and they are making inquiries

23     as to why the matters that you described to the Judges have happened.

24     So, for the moment, that's all we can tell you.

25             Mr. Mandic, I want to start, please, by dealing with your -- how

Page 9399

 1     you came to be at this Court or you come to be at this Court again.

 2             I think it's right that matters began when you were interviewed

 3     by the Office of the Prosecutor with your rights given to you as a

 4     suspect, first of all, in May 2003; then in March 2004; and then in

 5     October 2004.

 6             Is that right?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   You then testified in the case against Momcilo Krajisnik, between

 9     November of 2004, completing your testimony in December.  In fact, a

10     total of ten days in all.  Is that right?

11        A.   Right.

12        Q.   And I'm going to come back to some of the charges that you've

13     asked to make, or that you have made to your testimony in a moment.

14             You came back, as the Court knows, to The Hague in March of this

15     year, and then, for various reasons, you left after some five days here.

16             During that period, were you seen by Defence counsel for

17     Mico Stanisic, Mr. Zecevic, together with Mr. Cvijetic, and I think also

18     Mr. Krgovic at some stage.  And that was for a day, on Sunday, the 21st.

19        A.   Only once.  And that was with your consent or the consent of

20     someone from the Prosecution, I believe.

21        Q.   It's not a criticism.  I'm just setting the background.  But is

22     that right, you saw them on Sunday, the 21st?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And then you saw Mr. Zecevic again for some 30 minute this

25     morning, before you had a short interview with us.

Page 9400

 1             All right.  Did you -- before you left, on the last occasion on

 2     Thursday, the 25th of March, did you make a statement about some changes

 3     that you wanted to make to your previous testimony?

 4        A.   Yes, Madam Prosecutor.

 5        Q.   I just want to run through a sort of outline of the things you

 6     testified before about.  And this is not an exhaustive list by any means.

 7     But you testified obviously about your background and the positions you'd

 8     held.  You testified about the establishment of the Serbian state in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina; the national security council; the leadership of the

10     SDS; your knowledge, obviously, of Mico Stanisic; the division of the

11     MUP; the 11th of February meeting that was held in Banja Luka; the

12     dispatch that you sent on the 31st of March; arming; the attack on Vrace

13     school; dismissals; the autonomous regions; the camps, or detention

14     facilities; what sort of communication there was and what notice you were

15     receiving of what was happening; the council of ministers; Crisis Staffs;

16     obviously, the Ministry of Justice; prisons; courts; prisoner exchanges;

17     and paramilitary.

18             So you covered a very large range of topics.  Is that right,

19     Mr. Mandic, when you testified in the Krajisnik case?

20        A.   With only one exception, Madam Prosecutor.  I never said there

21     had been an attack by the Serbian police on Vrace.  It was not an attack.

22        Q.   Let me -- I agree.  I will change the word it was the occupation.

23        A.   The rest of the topics I did cover.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   If necessary, I can explain when the time comes.

Page 9401

 1        Q.   Well, I'm going to ask you now about the three matters that you

 2     wanted to make some changes to.  And this is the statement that you made

 3     -- short statement, which you signed.  The first thing that you wanted to

 4     alter was what you had said about the -- yes, we've got duplicate.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I think perhaps we have got it in Sanction so that

 6     Your Honours can see it and Mr. Mandic can see it as well.  And the first

 7     paragraph -- go to paragraph 1, yeah.

 8        Q.   Now, you can see there what you wanted to change, and I think we

 9     need to look, for a moment, at how this came about in your previous

10     testimony.

11             You were actually shown a document which is part of the --

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, part of the 92 ter package, and it's

13     1402 on the 65 ter list, tab 28, if you've got it.

14             So could we have up, please, 65 ter 1402.

15        Q.   This was a -- you were being shown this document which is the

16     central commission for the exchange of prisoners, and it was signed by a

17     captain who said at the bottom of the paragraph:

18             "According to rough estimates, about 10.000 Muslim civilians (of

19     all ages) passed through this facility during the war, spending between

20     several days and a few months in this facility."

21             That was what the document said.  And the question you were asked

22     by Mr. Tieger at page 8741 was -- really, 8742.  He said:

23             "I simply wanted to know if based on your own experience you had

24     any reason to doubt the accuracy of the figures in here or the accuracy

25     of the assertion that from the commencement of the war civilians were

Page 9402

 1     detained in Butmir."

 2             And you said:

 3             "This document was signed by Dragan Bulajic who was president of

 4     the commission for exchange, and I have no reason to doubt that the

 5     contents of this document ..."

 6             And it was written towards the end of 1994.

 7             Now, so it wasn't exactly that you said it; it was what was

 8     contained in this document.  And you've now said that you, to your

 9     knowledge among, those 10.000 people were locals who would hide there for

10     safety and to get food, and it was located next to a chicken farm.  And

11     then also:

12             "Since this prison was close to the airport where prisoner

13     exchanges were being carried out, the people being exchanged would all

14     pass through Butmir prison from all over the republic."

15             All right.  Is there anything that -- that you want to add to --

16     to that?

17        A.   I had forgotten that in my testimony in Krajisnik I explained

18     these things in this way.  Namely, that through the buildings of the farm

19     that was close to the airport civilians who were fleeing combat zones

20     were passing through, and there were also people who were coming there

21     for food, because there were food shortages at the time.  So it did not

22     refer to people detained on those premises.

23             In other cases, it was established exactly how many non-Serbs

24     were detained in Butmir at precisely what time.

25        Q.   All right.  I suppose the question is:  This was -- all can you

Page 9403

 1     say in respect of this document is that was a document that was sent up

 2     and signed by this gentleman.  Is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  It was two years after I left for Belgrade, and it was the

 4     President of the Central Commission for Exchanges of POWs,

 5     Ljubisa Bladosic [phoen] was at the time commissioner for refugees, and

 6     he requested food for those people from the government, the people who

 7     provisionally spent time on those premises, because the premises of that

 8     detention and correctional facility were in the immediate vicinity of the

 9     airport, of an area where exchanges between the warring parties took

10     place.  And before exchanges they had to spend a certain time in a -- in

11     some lotion, and this was the most suitable facility.

12        Q.   All right.  We'll leave that then and go to the second correction

13     you wanted to make, where you said:

14             "I was told that in my prior testimony the transcript reads that

15     I said that the police would detain people for 30 days."

16             Now, is this something that you were told by the Defence?

17        A.   I think I read it, or perhaps the Defence pointed it out.  I

18     can't remember.  But it's obviously a mistake, because the police could

19     not keep anyone in custody for 30 days.  Only up to three days under the

20     Law on Criminal Procedure.  Only a judge, an investigating judge, could

21     decide to prolong the remand.  So it must be a mistake that I made in my

22     language, or it's a typo.

23        Q.   All right.  Well I'll show you how this came about, you see.  I'm

24     not sure the Defence explained to you exactly how this came about.

25             You were actually been shown -- and this is at page 8948 of the

Page 9404

 1     transcript, although there's a lot of interruption by Mr. Stewart who was

 2     defending, so it is a bit truncated.  You were being shown a particular

 3     document, which was --

 4             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours, I'm just going to ...

 5             In fact, 65 ter 176, please.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  If we can have the tab number, please.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Mm-hm.  In the 92 ter -- it is 44 in the 92 ter

 8     package.  That's P427.8.

 9        Q.   And the document was first shown to you, just for the purposes of

10     everybody's note if they want to check it, at 8943.  It's day five of the

11     testimony.  And as I say, there's a lot of to-ing and fro-ing about the

12     translation.

13             MS. KORNER:  But then, can we go in the English, please, to --

14     this is a document called before -- a report on some aspects of the work

15     done to date and tasks ahead, and it's dated -- it's Sarajevo the 17th of

16     July.

17             And if we look, please, in the English - one, two, three, four -

18     fifth page and I hope in the B/C/S, because I don't have that with me,

19     unfortunately.  Sixth page, sorry.  Yes.  One more page.  That's it.  And

20     it's the paragraph beginning with:  "A view to resolving existing

21     problems ..."

22             And I can't even work this one out because it is in Cyrillic.

23        Q.   Is that the penultimate page in Cyrillic?

24             Mr. Mandic, do you see a paragraph that begins:  "With a view to

25     resolving existing problems ..."?

Page 9405

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  And four or five lines down, it says this:

 3             "With a view to resolving existing problems ... joint meeting to

 4     reach an agreement on initiating proceedings for changing the duration of

 5     pre-trial detention, the Presidency should uphold the provision according

 6     to which detention can last up to 31 days."

 7             Now I hope that's what it says in Serbian as well.  Is that what

 8     it says?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  It says 21, I believe.

10             MS. KORNER:  Oh, okay, 21.  Yeah, I think that was the decision

11     in the transcript.

12        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Mandic, it says 21?

13        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

14        Q.   So, what -- what was happening was that there was a discussion

15     about this particular document, and -- and you give your answer on

16     page 8948 of the transcript.

17             But anyhow you're saying, are you, that at no stage did the

18     length of time which the MUP could people -- could keep people in

19     detention for change to longer than three days?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And then the final one, perhaps this does need a little more

22     explanation from you, please.  Your final change:

23             "In my prior testimony and statement, I said that Mico Stanisic

24     instructed me to send the dispatch on the 31st of March, 1992, advising

25     of the split in the MUP.  I wrote the dispatch.  It was logical for the

Page 9406

 1     minister of the interior to instruct me to do this, but did he not.  I

 2     was in charge of the Serbs in the MUP at the time and did not write this

 3     dispatch on anyone's behalf.  I received information from Velibor Ostojic

 4     that the law had a had been passed in accordance with the Cutileiro Plan,

 5     and I wrote this on my own initiative in accordance with my own

 6     conscience and professionalism and in cooperation with the professionals

 7     in my cabinet."

 8             Now, Mr. Mandic, before you just expand on that, I think we had

 9     better just look at what you did say about this during your testimony.

10     The first part is at 8677, which is on day 2.

11             You had been shown the dispatch, and you were asked this -- there

12     was a legal argument again.  Mr. Tieger said:

13             "Mr. Mandic, at the time you sent the document, did you realise

14     or believe that the dissemination of this document would commence the

15     conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16             And you said:

17             "No, I only acted in accordance to the decisions of the Serbian

18     people, on 27th of March, 1992, passed such a decision and also the Law

19     on Interior.  Since I was a high-ranking administration official - or,

20     actually, in terms of rank the top official in the joint MUP - I was

21     instructed by the newly appointed minister of the interior,

22     Mico Stanisic, to send this kind of telegram, and that's what I did."

23             And then you were asked about this again, when you were

24     cross-examined by Mr. Stewart, who you probably remember, at page 9314.

25     Mr. Stewart said to you:

Page 9407

 1             "And you have given evidence that, as far as you were concerned,

 2     this was in accordance with decisions which had already been taken on

 3     behalf of the Serbian people.  But Mr. Krajisnik had no -- himself had no

 4     individual part in the preparation and dissemination of this particular

 5     document, did he?

 6             And you answered:

 7             "You're right.  At that moment, Mr. Krajisnik was in Lisbon

 8     together with Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and I believe

 9     Mate Boban, where they signed the so-called Cutileiro Plan.  This plan

10     verified" --

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm really sorry, Ms. Korner, I'm -- I'm reading

12     the page 9314, and I can't --

13             MS. KORNER:  Bottom answer.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, yeah, thank you very much.  I'm sorry.

15             MS. KORNER:

16        Q.   "This plan verified the creation of armies and police forces

17     based on ethnicity and Mr. Stanisic informed me about this.  He said that

18     in keeping with the decisions of the Assembly and the enactments stated

19     in the dispatch, I was supposed to circulate this across all the

20     territory to all police stations and all autonomous regions."

21             And you had said much the same in your interview, which is not --

22     your previous interview, which not part of the package.

23             Now, Mr. Mandic, when did you decide that you had made an error

24     in saying it was Mico Stanisic who instructed you to send the dispatch?

25        A.   Your Honours, when I spoke about this in the Krajisnik case, and

Page 9408

 1     following logic, I should have consulted the newly appointed minister of

 2     police.  However, after thinking it through, and looking at the

 3     documents, I recalled that I had been informed by this by

 4     Velibor Ostojic, the then information minister.  Then, on the 23rd of

 5     March, in the Official Gazette of the Serbian People the Law on Internal

 6     Affairs of Republika Srpska was published, and he told me that it came

 7     into force eight days after the publication.  Following the decision of

 8     the Assembly of the Serbian people, it was my duty to notify everyone

 9     from the very top to the last police station in whole territory of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina about the forming of the Serbian MUP.  Stanisic had

11     nothing to do with that, nor did he have anything to do with that.  And I

12     swear to this with my honour.  I made a mistake.  I didn't pay much

13     attention whether it was Stanisic or Velibor Ostojic, but now today I

14     want to say the truth, and this is the truth.  And I would take this

15     opportunity to apologise both to Mr. Stanisic and to you.

16        Q.   Was it after or before you spoke to the Defence on the Sunday

17     that you came to the conclusion that you'd made this mistake?

18        A.   The Defence raised some objections with me, and that prompted me

19     to think about the chain of events.  You know, in the Krajisnik case, I

20     think that I gave evidence for ten or 12 days in a row.  I was overtired,

21     exhausted, and I was focussed on other things, rather than in mentioning

22     in a context either the minister of information or the minister of

23     police.  But the fact is that this dispatch was sent from my office, that

24     I drafted it with my associate, the fact that the Law on Internal Affairs

25     came into effect, and the fact is that it was pursuant to the decision of

Page 9409

 1     the Assembly of the Serbian People.

 2             So, Madam Prosecutor, at this juncture, this was sanctioned by

 3     Dayton Accords, and currently this is the hierarchy existing in the MUP

 4     of the Republika Srpska, and this was also sanctioned at the moment by

 5     the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Nothing has changed.  Of course,

 6     you haven't received the supplement to my telegram, providing details

 7     about education, finances, health care, et cetera, which were agreed at

 8     the staff meeting in the ministry that all these costs relating to

 9     health, education, et cetera, be pooled until a political decision was

10     made about how to construct the police forces in the territory of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, I just have two further questions on this,

13     Mr. Mandic.

14             The first is:  Where was Mico Stanisic at the time that you sent

15     the telegram?  Dispatch, sorry.

16        A.   I think that he was on holiday, that he wasn't in any of the

17     police institutions at the time.  He had been a minor official in the

18     city of Sarajevo.  He was given a new post of an advisor to the minister,

19     and he went on holiday.  Therefore, he was not in touch with me

20     whatsoever.  It was only the minister of information and people who

21     worked in the joint MUP.  The Croats and the Muslims were the ones who

22     kept communication with me, including the Serbs.  I think that was the

23     situation.

24             Yes, he was on vacation.

25        Q.   Sorry, just two things.  By 31st of March 1992, he had been

Page 9410

 1     appointed the minister of the interior, hadn't he?  His appointment had

 2     come on the 27th of March.

 3        A.   I don't know when he was appointed.  I was informed that he had

 4     become the minister of police by necessity.  Vito Zepinic was the

 5     minister of police, and it was published in the Official Gazette.

 6             Since Mr. Zepinic was prone to corruption, the president of the

 7     council and the future prime minister, probably in agreement with the

 8     leadership of the Bosnian Serbs, that Mico Stanisic should become the

 9     minister.  He was an ad hoc minister.  Vitomir Zepinic was the Serbian --

10     proper Serbian minister of the police, and that was published in the

11     Official Gazette.  But, having found that he was a corrupt person, that

12     he had been given by the party of democratic action some offices and

13     something like that, it was decided, I don't know on what basis, that

14     Mico Stanisic should be appointed.  He was a member of the Ministerial

15     council without any portfolio.

16        Q.   Mr. Zepinic had been the -- the second in command, had he not,

17     deputy, to Mr. Delimustafic in the old undivided MUP?

18        A.   That's correct.  Yes, that's correct, Madam Prosecutor.

19        Q.   And when it was decided at the Assembly of the 27th of March to

20     split the MUP, enact the Serbian law on the MUP, weren't you aware -- are

21     you telling us you weren't aware that Mr. Stanisic was appointed as

22     minister?

23        A.   He was nominated as a candidate for the minister because

24     Vito Zepinic was found by the service to be corrupt, that he had taken

25     bribes from the Party of Democratic Action, or, rather, the political

Page 9411

 1     leadership of the Muslim people.  That was the only reason.  Because

 2     Vitomir Zepinic was appointed, number one, in the police by the

 3     ministerial council, and that was published in the Official Gazette of

 4     January 1992 [realtime transcript read in error "1993"].  And I believe

 5     that Mico Stanisic was a member of the council without any portfolio.  I

 6     think so; I'm not sure.

 7        Q.   I think we are getting slightly muddled, but I --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Is this a convenient point to take the break?

 9             Mr. Zecevic.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I just have one intervention in the transcript,

11     line 3, I believe the witness said January 1992, and I think it might be

12     important further on.

13             MS. KORNER:  I think he is talking about the ministerial council.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Ministerial council, that's correct, yes.

15             MS. KORNER:  Oh, it's December 1991, but I mean --

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yeah, yeah, but it was published in Official

17     Gazette of Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina in January 1992.  That is

18     correct.

19             MS. KORNER:  As I said, we're going slightly at cross-purposes

20     here, I think.

21             But, Your Honours, yes, it would be --

22             JUDGE HALL:  We will resume in 20 minutes.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

Page 9412

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, while the witness is ushered, may I

 2     just, for the purposes of transcript, announce that Kenneth Janesk has

 3     joined -- our associate has joined the Stanisic Defence.

 4             In another matter, Your Honour, I briefly discussed with my

 5     learned friends from the Prosecution, I believe -- your decision of today

 6     on page 16, line 9, until 18, line 1, is in a private session, that was

 7     the part when the witness was -- was giving his explanation or his

 8     complaint to the Trial Chamber.

 9             I don't think -- I don't think that this part should be -- should

10     be private, and I will request, kindly, the Trial Chamber to reconsider

11     that, and make that part of the transcript public.

12             There is no objection, as I understand, from the -- from the

13     Prosecution side.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's right, there's no objection.  I

16     mean, Your Honours decided to go into private session.  Nobody requested

17     it.  But we don't have any strong views, can we put it that way.  We're

18     neutral.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We thought when we moved into the private session

20     earlier on this afternoon that the witness was going to address issues

21     that would relate to a foreign government.  And for that reason we

22     thought it wise to go into private session, but we haven't had a chance

23     to review what was actually said during this --

24             MS. KORNER:  Well, he did mention a foreign government, there's

25     no doubt about that, Your Honours.

Page 9413

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We suggest we review the transcript and then get

 3     back with a decision on your --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand.  I'm grateful to Your Honours.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mandic, all right.  That's all that I want to ask you about

 8     the corrections that you made.  We can sort out the slight confusion over

 9     Mr. Zepinic and Mr. Stanisic and the Council of Ministers a little later.

10     As far as the remainder of the transcript of your previous testimony is

11     concerned, have you now reviewed either by listening or by reading what

12     you said?

13        A.   I have read it, and I fully comply with the statement that I gave

14     in the Krajisnik says.

15        Q.   So have you no other changes to make?

16        A.   No, I don't.

17        Q.   And the -- if you were asked the same questions again, which

18     you're not going to be, I can assure you, your answers would be the same?

19        A.   They would be the same.  But if I have forgotten something, I

20     would appreciate if you would remind me.

21        Q.   No, that's fine.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in those circumstances can I ask that

23     the 92 ter package be admitted.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit P1318.1 through .36,

Page 9414

 1     Your Honours.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Now, I'm afraid, as you appreciate, Mr. Mandic,

 3     we're going to have to take you through some other --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry.  I didn't object, but if

 5     Your Honours remember at the very beginning, I asked that his statement

 6     be part of the 92 ter package.  I don't know if it -- if it has been

 7     done.  Oh, I see that from the Registry that it has been done.

 8             Thank you very much, I'm sorry.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, the only one

11     that's been admitted -- his previous interviews were not part of the

12     package.  That's the interviews he had with the Office of the Prosecutor.

13     The only thing that has been added is the statement he made on the 25th

14     of March, corrections to the transcript.

15             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I just need to deal with few matters that you

18     personally brought up.  One is your acquittal at the State Court.  So if

19     we could just deal with that so that the Trial Chamber has the full

20     picture.

21             I think that you were arrested on 17th of August of 2005 in

22     Montenegro.  Is that right?

23        A.   No, Your Honours.  I was abducted from my flat, and within a

24     space of two hours, I was transferred to the Republic of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina without any documents whatsoever, without any right to

Page 9415

 1     extraditionary [as interpreted] detention, and at the time I was a

 2     citizen of the Montenegro.  So that was classic case of abduction by

 3     unknown individuals who abducted me in a brutal way and took me across

 4     the border between Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina.  After that, in a

 5     helicopter owned by international community, I was transferred to a

 6     prison in Sarajevo.  This was something totally different from the notion

 7     of arrest.  I was abducted.  It was an abduction.

 8        Q.   My fault.  I perhaps used the wrong word.  In any event, as you

 9     say, you were transferred, by means that you described, to Sarajevo.  You

10     were held in custody.  An indictment was filed on the 20th of January,

11     2006.  But not in relation to war crimes; it was in relation to your job

12     as a -- as the director of the Privredna Banka Srpska Sarajevo.  Is that

13     right?

14        A.   No, it isn't.  Among other things I was indicted at the time for

15     aiding The Hague fugitive, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  And I also accused of

16     extending loans to certain Serbian companies which then used this money

17     to provide a hideout for Mr. Karadzic and for him to evade justice.

18             I am an owner of that bank, although I was indicted for allegedly

19     hiding Mr. Karadzic, I was falsely accused of extending loans from my own

20     bank to the Serbian companies that were aiding and abetting Mr. Karadzic.

21     Unfortunately, that is how the judiciary worked at the time.  Although I

22     served part of my sentence, I am now free.  I don't feel that that was

23     justice done.  There was no precedent in any legal system, and that was

24     the reason for my dissatisfaction, because they wanted to put me in

25     prison as the main integrator of providing shelter to Mr. Karadzic, and I

Page 9416

 1     do not acknowledge that judgement and that conviction.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry.  I assume that is because the witness

 3     talks pretty fast that the interpreters are not able to cope with the

 4     pace.  So if Ms. Korner can instruct him to speak a bit slower so -- so

 5     the transcript will reflect exactly what he said.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Mandic, the -- what you -- you're speaking in B/C/S and what

 8     -- your testimony has to be interrupted for the purposes of the

 9     transcript, and to aid in the accuracy of that, if you would be so kind

10     as to slow down the pace a bit that you're speaking, that would be of

11     assistance to us all.  Thank you.

12             Yes, Ms. Korner.

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   You heard, Mr. Mandic --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  My

16     apologies.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   That's all right.  I was going to come on to that because, as you

19     say rightly, in fact you were also charged in relation to forgery of an

20     official document as -- in connection with a copy called

21     Autorad Trebinje, and as you say, roughly speaking, and we have the

22     indictment here, if the Court need to see it, with helping Karadzic.

23             Now, on the 27th of October 2006, they found you guilty, the

24     court, of abuse of your official authority and forgery of the document.

25     You were not found guilty of anything to do with Karadzic.  And at that

Page 9417

 1     stage they sentenced you to nine years imprisonment, but that was reduced

 2     on appeal to five years.

 3             Then in the middle of that trial, you were charged with war

 4     crimes and crimes against humanity.  The charges related there to the

 5     takeover of Vrace school - not going call it an attack - on the 6th of

 6     April, unlawful confinement and ill-treatment of civilians and

 7     conditions, and in respect of the treatment of people in the Butmir

 8     prison, Planja's House in Vogosca, and in Foca.  And as you told the

 9     Court, you were acquitted of those war crimes.  Is that right?

10        A.   If you permit me a couple of explanations.

11             I was a suspect in this court.  And on a couple of occasions, the

12     investigators from this Tribunal talked to me about this.  In the

13     meantime my case had been filed by this Prosecution office when

14     Carla Del Ponte was the Prosecutor.  It was filed with [as interpreted]

15     any markings whatsoever, which means that there were no elements for

16     criminal prosecution.  There was no A, B, or C.  In the meantime the rule

17     of the Rome road [as interpreted] ceased to exist, which provided for the

18     Prosecution in Bosnia and Herzegovina to ask this Prosecution, regarding

19     anyone, to re-open the case or to issue an indictment.

20             This took place on the 31st of December, 2004, when this

21     provision ceased to be in force.  Since I was there at the time, an

22     indictment was immediately issued against me.  I was transferred from the

23     cantonal Prosecutor's office to the Prosecution office of BH.  And

24     without a single shred of evidence, an indictment was issued.  All the

25     elements that the Prosecutor in Sarajevo had was provided from here, and

Page 9418

 1     they were marked as a source, the OTP of the The Hague Tribunal.  Of

 2     course, the intention was just to establish and just to bind me to help

 3     locate Dr. Karadzic, because, in the meantime, an associate of The Hague

 4     Tribunal appeared in court and talked to me about this subject.  They

 5     tried to persuade me to say where Karadzic was, what his health condition

 6     was, et cetera, and that that would result in the acquittal of my -- of

 7     the both indictment -- the indictments.  And I was eventually released,

 8     and I'm deeply convinced that this proceedings should never have taken

 9     place at all, because I was the only head of an administrative organ that

10     had been the subject of a criminal proceedings.

11        Q.   Right.  That -- well, Mr. Mandic, yeah, you've now explained what

12     happened from your point of view.

13             Can I, just very briefly for the purpose of the Court, cover the

14     positions you held for the period we are interested in.  I think you

15     attended the police school in Sarajevo.  Was that together with

16     Mico Stanisic, or one of people there was Mico Stanisic?

17        A.   Yes.  We were in the same class in the police academy.

18        Q.   All right.  I think you then worked for the SUP in Sarajevo, then

19     attended university where you read law.  And did you subsequently receive

20     an MA in 1989, the subject of your dissertation being the role of the

21     witness in criminal proceedings?

22        A.   Yes, the role of the witness in the criminal proceedings.

23        Q.   And I'm sure everybody in the court sees in the irony of that,

24     Mr. Mandic.

25             Then were you a judge in the basic court until 1991, did you

Page 9419

 1     become the assistant minister of the interior?

 2        A.   I was elected the judge of the cantonal court, which was then

 3     called the higher court.  But instead of that, I became assistant

 4     minister for the interior at the proposal and suggestion of Dr. Vitomir

 5     Zepinic.  But, as my side activity, I was involved in sports for many

 6     years.

 7        Q.   I was just going to come on to that.  I think you were in fact

 8     the Yugoslav champion for judo?

 9        A.   And I also won the European medal.

10        Q.   Right.  And then in April 1992, were you appointed

11     deputy minister of the interior, and then on 19th of May, the minister of

12     justice?

13        A.   I was never appointed Deputy Minister of the interior, nor did

14     this place exist or this position exist in the job classification of the

15     newly formed Serbian MUP.  But the then-minister Mico Stanisic agreed

16     with me that I would act as his stand-in and to assist him in the work of

17     the MUP.  That was an arrangement between the Serbian police minister and

18     me as an assistant, who had, at the moment, lost his job in the joint

19     MUP, because on 8th of April, I was dismissed at the session of the joint

20     government of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was chaired by Jure Pelivan.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, just an intervention in the transcript,

22     page 37, line 18, I believe the witness said that after he was judge of

23     the cantonal court, he was supposed to go to the higher court, but

24     instead of that he went to -- he became assistant minister for the

25     interior.

Page 9420

 1             Just for the clarity of the transcript.  Maybe you can check it

 2     out with him.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, wrong, Defence.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer from

 5     the beginning, slowly.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  The interpreters would wish you to repeat your

 7     answer from the beginning slowly, Mr. Mandic.

 8             MS. KORNER:  About your judicial appointment.

 9             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the end of 1990, I was a

11     judge with the lower court in Sarajevo.

12             At the time I was elected to the position in the higher court in

13     Sarajevo.  In the meantime this higher court changed name, and it was

14     called then and now the cantonal court.  It's a higher-instance.  The

15     court takes more serious crimes than the lower court.  And instead of

16     taking up that position, I -- I became assistant minister of the

17     interior.

18             MS. KORNER:  Right.  I think that is now clear.

19        Q.   And did you remain as minister of justice from the 19th of May,

20     1992, as part of the government headed by Mr. Djeric until that

21     government fell in November of 1992?

22        A.   Correct, Madam Prosecutor.

23        Q.   All right.  Then before we move to some of the documents I'd like

24     to ask you about, can I ask you just to look at some maps.  And I just

25     wanted to -- for the Trial Chamber to see an idea of what Pale and

Page 9421

 1     Jahorina were like.

 2             MS. KORNER:  First of all, can we have up 10346.  No, 10346,

 3     please.  Page 3, sorry.

 4        Q.   All right.  This is, as I think everyone can see, taken from

 5     Google maps, but it seems to be the simplest way of portraying this.  Can

 6     we see that Sarajevo, in the dip there -- and it's all marked.  Pale, you

 7     have to go up over the mountains.  And then Jahorina, even higher up.

 8             Is that right?

 9        A.   Right.

10        Q.   Exactly.

11             MS. KORNER:  Then can we look, please, at 10346, page 2.  Which

12     can only be said to be slightly better than the skiing map, but

13     anyhow ...

14        Q.   Can you put out to us, please -- we can see there the Bistrica

15     hotel.  Where is that?  You can draw on to the screen, if you can just

16     mark that.

17        A.   I think this is it.

18        Q.   Yeah.  And the Jahorina?

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Perhaps you could put 1 in the first circle you made, which is

21     the Bistrica; and 2 for the Jahorina.  Thanks.

22             Who or what was based in the Bistrica hotel?

23        A.   The government led by Professor Djeric was there.

24        Q.   And was that where your office was, as minister of justice?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9422

 1        Q.   And in the Jahorina hotel?

 2        A.   I think the refugees were put up in Hotel Jahorina.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Okay.  And finally, on the series of maps, could we

 4     look at 10346, page 1.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7             Can we have the first map showing the various locations of Pale,

 8     Sarajevo, and Jahorina admitted and marked.  I can't have them all three

 9     marked together.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I don't think that the 10346 is on your 65 ter

11     list.

12             MS. KORNER:  You're absolutely spot on.  But are you telling me

13     that there is an objection to a map from Google maps?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm not -- I'm not objecting to the -- to the

15     document itself.  I'm objecting as regarding the principle that we have,

16     how to -- how to admit the documents which are not on the 65 ter list.

17             MS. KORNER:  Could we have a sense of reality about this.  We

18     understand if it's a document where -- we've had our collections and it's

19     a -- but this is just a map.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, is this of any material assistance to

21     the Chamber to have this map?  I mean, regardless of the fact of whether

22     or not it was on the 65 ter list, are we learning something new here?

23             MS. KORNER:  Well, I don't think you've got any.  As far as I

24     remember, there aren't any maps of Pale, and Your Honours are going to

25     hear quite a lot of evidence and have heard quite a lot evidence about

Page 9423

 1     the relative where Jahorina is in relation to Pale and Sarajevo.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Don't we have geographical maps that show exactly

 3     where these cities are?

 4             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I don't think so.  No

 5     you've just got -- yes, Your Honours --

 6             It -- all you have got is this.  And if that gives you any

 7     assistance at all, I should be very surprised.  I'm afraid we did rather

 8     more research now than we did before the pre-trial brief.

 9             It's page -- map 25.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, the -- it seems to me that the --

12     inasmuch as Google has become ubiquitous, that this is -- falls into the

13     category of things of which judicial notice can be taken, so it's merely

14     a matter of the Prosecution moving something out of the public domain and

15     marking it for our purposes, so I see no reason not to give it an exhibit

16     number.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.

18             MS. KORNER:  Right.  In that case, could the first one, which was

19     the Google map, Sarajevo, pale, and whatever, be admitted and marked.

20             JUDGE HALL:  So admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1319, Your Honours.

22             MS. KORNER:  And could I have the plain unmarked map of the

23     Bistrik hotel and Jahorina, the one that was on the screen but has

24     disappeared suddenly, as the next exhibit; plus, as a separate exhibit,

25     the one that he marked.

Page 9424

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yeah, I gather that ... yes.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Okay, can we have the three pages, one as one

 4     exhibit; and the one that Mr. Mandic marked as the second.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Unmarked map, three pages of it, will become

 6     Exhibit P1319.  And the marked map with markings will become

 7     Exhibit P1320, Your Honours.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Thank you very much.

 9        Q.   All right.  And finally can I ask you to look at the street plan

10     of Pale.  Oh, page 1.  I'm not going to ask you because one needs to zoom

11     in, and I don't want to waste time on that.

12             In the Karadzic residence we can see there, the photograph at the

13     bottom left, who lived in that house?

14        A.   Is this the residence or a residential house?

15             This is an official residence, I think, where the office of

16     Mr. Karadzic was.

17        Q.   And did anybody else have offices there?

18        A.   If that's the building I mean, then Dr. Karadzic was on the

19     ground floor, and Momcilo Krajisnik was on the upper floor.  So the

20     Assembly was on the upper floor and the office of the president of the

21     Republika Srpska on the ground floor.

22        Q.   All right.  On the right-hand side, we can see Panorama and the

23     Mali Dom.  Can you just indicate again, can you just mark it, please,

24     where was the Hotel Panorama?

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 9425

 1        A.   This is the official residence, Mali Dom.

 2        Q.   Could you put down 1, please, where the Mali Dom; and 2 for the

 3     Panorama.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Thank you very much.  That's all I'm going trouble with you about

 6     maps and plans.  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Do you want to tender it?

 8             MS. KORNER:  Oh, yes, and could that be tendered, please,

 9     separately.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1321, Your Honours.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   I now need to ask you about some other documents that you had a

14     chance to have a look at least some of them.

15             MS. KORNER:  And can we start, please, with -- yes, 2401.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this doesn't seem to have a date on it, but I think

18     you were able, when you looked at it, to tell us what date this was, or

19     what date you thought it was.

20        A.   It's somewhere between mid-April to end April 1992.  Between the

21     10th and 19th, perhaps, 20th, of April.

22        Q.   And you are able to say that how?

23        A.   That's because I was standing in for the minister between the

24     10th and the 20th of April, when I was informed I would take over the

25     Ministry of Justice, because the minister, Ranko Nikolic, who had been

Page 9426

 1     elected minister of justice at the Ministerial Council failed to show up

 2     at his post.

 3        Q.   I'm sorry, who did you say the minister?  Which minister?

 4        A.   Ranko Nikolic.

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6             And is that your signature on -- by the side of the document?

 7        A.   I cannot identify it.  You mean the one below?  At the bottom?

 8     It's someone called Ninkovic.

 9        Q.   No, the one, I'm sorry, by the side where you are signing for you

10     salary.  Are you able to identify that number 9?  It's very squashed; I

11     agree.

12        A.   I'm sorry, I can't.  It probably is.  But I cannot identify it

13     because there's a -- a signature superimposed on mine.  But there's no

14     reason to doubt that it's mine.

15        Q.   All right.

16        A.   It's from the second half of April.

17        Q.   Yes.  Thank you very much.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted.

19     Admitted and marked.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1322, Your Honours.

22             MS. KORNER:  Yes, could we -- I just want to check something on

23     the next document.

24        Q.   Yes, the next thing I want to ask you -- no, that's been admitted

25     already.

Page 9427

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm so sorry.  I prepared this before

 2     I realised that some of these documents have already been admitted.

 3        Q.   Yes.  Now, can I ask you to look, please, at the transcript of a

 4     conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic, which is 33 --

 5     sorry.  Yes, it's 3397.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Because I don't believe, Your Honours, we've yet had

 7     -- or those haven't been admitted, the intercepts given exhibit numbers.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Which reminds me, the Chamber would have filed a

 9     decision today clarifying its earlier decision in terms of these exhibit

10     numbers.

11             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Right.  Now you listened to this one this morning.  We didn't

13     give you the transcript, Mr. Mandic, but I think you were able to

14     identify the voices of -- recognise the voices of Mr. Krajisnik and

15     Mr. Karadzic.  But it's some of the things that were said about you that

16     I want to ask you about.

17             Mr. Krajisnik is having a conversation, to begin with, to do with

18     an attack on the Serbian village of Kravica.  And then if we can go on to

19     the second page in both, Mr. Krajisnik says:

20             "I told Vito to make sure he goes there to put in an appearance

21     before the people.  There are people.  You know, they've become agitated.

22     They want an army."

23             Do you know from the context who the Vito was that Mr. Krajisnik

24     was referring to?

25        A.   Most probably Vitomir Zepinic, Deputy Minister of the joint MUP.

Page 9428

 1     We called him Vito.

 2        Q.   Right.  And then Mr. Karadzic says:

 3             "We'll make our point."  And he says:  "Can you see where this

 4     leads?  Do your realise you will disappear?"

 5             And then he goes on say:  "Many of us will also disappear, but

 6     you will be annihilated."

 7             And then Mr. Krajisnik says:

 8             "No we should say we'd all disappear."

 9             Now leaving all that aside, can we go down to where it says

10     Mr. Krajisnik says this:

11             "Not cunning, you know what happened last night.  You weren't

12     there.  You'd gone out when Momcilo Mandic said, Please you're not doing

13     things properly.  He said, no one's doing things properly.  And before

14     that I'd told him, you know, that none of them were doing things

15     properly."  And then there's a bit more to it.

16             And then Mr. Krajisnik says again:

17             "I didn't want to undermine their authority, you know, and they

18     said you're right.  And then Mandic started going on about how Draskovic

19     isn't doing anything, he's resolving staff problems and not working on

20     this."

21             Now Mr. Mandic, looking at this, can you us what it was that, if

22     you can remember - and this conversation is the 4th of September of 1991

23     - what Mr. Krajisnik is saying you were objecting to?

24        A.   I can't remember.  I don't know what it was about.  I really

25     can't.  It was September 1991.  There's a reference to Draskovic, who, at

Page 9429

 1     the time, was deputy chief of the police, deputy to Avdo Hebib.  No, I

 2     don't know.

 3             I don't know which line of work this refers to, which service.

 4     Is it personnel or crime police, regular uniformed police?  I really

 5     can't remember.

 6        Q.   Do you recall any time around this period, which is we know

 7     leading up to what happened in October when the Assembly effectively

 8     split, where you were saying to Mr. Krajisnik, Look, you're not doing any

 9     of this properly?

10             Do you remember any occasions saying that?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I don't think can I take this much

14     further.

15             All right.  Can we move then, please, next, to -- let me just

16     check ... yeah, this is another intercept, this time between Mr. --

17     sorry, the number is 1049.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             MS. KORNER:  Can we go, please, to the last page in English and

20     in B/C/S.  And this is Simovic saying:

21             "I asked for Momo Mandic to go" -- this is to Capljina.  "If

22     somebody from the SDS had to go, I was in favour of either Mico Stanisic

23     or Mandic; however, we could not get a hold of either of them.  And I

24     said that if they were not there, you would not go either."

25             Two things, please.  Were you ever a member of the SDS?

Page 9430

 1        A.   No, never.

 2        Q.   All right.  Is there any -- I was going to say is there any point

 3     in me asking.

 4             Can you recall anything about what this might refer to on the

 5     28th of September, 1991?

 6        A.   There was something going on in Capljina.  I believe Simovic

 7     confused Serbian personnel and the SDS.  He probably meant the Serbian

 8     personnel elected by the party in power, the Serbian Democratic Party,

 9     people from the SDS and senior executives elected by the party in power,

10     and Simovic was a member of the SDS.

11        Q.   All right.  Yes, thank you very much.

12             I'd like you to look, please, next, at a document you sent to

13     Mr. Karadzic on 16th of October, which is document 65 ter 2703.

14             Now, this is a report, and is that your signature on it,

15     Mr. Mandic, or is it somebody signing on your behalf?

16        A.   No, that's not my signature.

17        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember this report?

18        A.   No.  Nope.  Let me see inside the report.  But this is not my

19     signature.

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... but is it on your behalf

21     apparently?  Does it say "za"?

22             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to next page, please, in B/C/S.

23        Q.   Now this is apparently, we can see, on the 3rd of September 1991,

24     17 workers sent a memorandum to the Ministry of the Interior alleging

25     that a former director of the company, Mico Stanisic, had ruined the

Page 9431

 1     enterprise which his - I think it must be his unscrupulousness, but apart

 2     from that - and incompetence.

 3             Then there was petition, and so on.  Do you remember this now,

 4     because in fact --

 5        A.   Mico Stanisic was never the director of the trading company in

 6     Rajlovac.  He was a legal advisor, an administrative officer, while the

 7     director of that trading company was a Muslim.  I can't remember the

 8     name.  He is now a lawyer in Sarajevo.  I'm sure.

 9        Q.   Can I -- sorry, Mr. Mandic.  The ins and outs of what was

10     happening are not the purpose --

11        A.   This is the first time I'm seeing this.

12        Q.   This is what I wanted to ask you.  Are you saying this is not a

13     report that you did?

14        A.   I did not.  I'm seeing this for the first time in my life.  Or

15     I'm drawing a complete blank after 17 years.

16             Because I know when Mico left the police he was a legal advisor

17     in this company which held the commodity reserves of the city of

18     Sarajevo.  He was assistant or a deputy perhaps, but never the director.

19             I cannot recall the name of the real director, but it will come

20     to me.  He was, until the beginning of the war, the director of a

21     commodity reserves.  He was Muslim by ethnicity.

22        Q.   Yes, can I say -- Mr. Mandic, just let me finish for a moment.

23             First of all, as I say, the ins and outs of this allegation are

24     not relevant to this trial.  But what is relevant and why I'm asking you

25     this is why this report was sent to Mr. Karadzic.

Page 9432

 1        A.   I don't see why this would be addressed to Karadzic.  It's a

 2     report on crime.

 3        Q.   Well -- [overlapping speakers]

 4        A.   It's -- it doesn't make sense.  I would never do that.

 5        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

 6        A.   Karadzic was not in power at the time.  He was just a party boss

 7     at the time.  If this letter was to be sent anywhere, the right address

 8     would the Prosecutor's office.

 9        Q.   Thank you very much.

10             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back to the front page, please.

11        Q.   Now let's have a look at -- at the stamp.  What is that the

12     sampling of?

13        A.   I don't see it.  It's some secretariat.

14        Q.   Right.  What about -- does that -- is that somebody who says that

15     he is signing on your behalf?

16        A.   I find this rather illegible.

17             Something is written at the bottom.  Does it say:  "Za"?

18             No, this is not my signature.  That is certain.

19             Look at the all the documents.  I never signed it this way.

20        Q.   I'm not suggesting you did.  But somebody, whoever signed it,

21     says "za"?  Does that not?

22        A.   Possibly, but probably.

23        Q.   Now do you know anything about any allegations that were made

24     against Mico Stanisic?

25        A.   I can only give you my personal opinion.  It needn't be correct.

Page 9433

 1             Somebody wanted to prevent Stanisic from coming to the police so

 2     he was set up and accused of committing a crime.  I would say that was

 3     something typical in Bosnia or amongst Serbs.  To send such a report to

 4     the leader of the party just to -- to show how the structure of power in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina existed, I don't see anything in the then Law on the

 6     Criminal Procedure that this kind of report would be sent to the leader

 7     of the party about any fraudulent activities in any company.  And I think

 8     that already at the time Mico Stanisic was with the police.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner, I just -- I'm just not sure

10     where you see "for" on this document.

11             I see there assistant minister of the interior, and it says in

12     Serbian [B/C/S] spoken.

13             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, what is the last bit?

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  It says, MR. Momcilo Mandic.  I believe MR stands

15     for magistrate.  Magistrate of law.  That's academic -- I think that's --

16     maybe you can clarify that with the witness.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you have heard what Mr. Zecevic has said.  Do you

19     agree with that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   I mean, I agree, I had an MA at the time, but, believe me, this

23     is not my signature.  This is not my letter.  I would never have sent a

24     letter to the party, to a political party.  It doesn't make sense.  And

25     all my letters were drafted by my assistants -- assistants in charge of

Page 9434

 1     general crime, economic crime, et cetera.  I had different lines of

 2     works, and I had people who were responsible for those lines of work.

 3             You can see who signed the document itself.  This is just a

 4     covering letter.  Let's see who signed the main document.

 5             MS. KORNER:  If we go to the last page.

 6        Q.   Did you know somebody called Momcilo Janjetovic?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   And who was he?

 9        A.   Well, he was chased out of the police when --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters didn't hear the last part of the

11     answer.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was an inspector.  I don't know.

13     He ended up.  And he was never employed in the police administration.  He

14     used to work in some of the lower organs of the police administrations,

15     whether in the SUP of the city or the security centre.  But this person

16     never worked in my administration that was in the headquarters of the

17     ministry, never.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   No, but if there was a report -- and I don't want to spend too

20     much time on this.  But if there was report on an allegation of crime

21     involving a senior person in a company or a senior police officer, would

22     such a report have to be sent to you as the assistant minister?

23        A.   If it went out lawfully from my administration, I would be the

24     one to sign it.  But this person never worked in my administration.

25             You can check that.  Ask for the list of personnel of the

Page 9435

 1     criminal investigation department in the police headquarters in 1991.

 2     There was no Momcilo Janjetovic working in my administration.  He was a

 3     member of the police, though.  But he worked in some of the lower ranking

 4     centres, either in the centre of Sarajevo or Sarajevo SUP, or even a

 5     police station in Sarajevo.  But never in the administration where I was

 6     the chief and where I was directly overseeing the work.

 7        Q.   All right.  Anyhow, was he a Serb?

 8        A.   Yes he was.  At least I think so.  Momcilo is a Serbian first

 9     name.

10        Q.   Yes, all right.  Can you think of any reason why such a report

11     should be sent to Mr. Karadzic?  Any lawfully reason?

12        A.   There could be no lawful reason.  The only objective could be to

13     inform one of the leaders of the ruling parties about a person who was

14     supposed to join the police that he was not an honest man.  These were

15     just framing up people.  There was no criminal report, and Mico Stanisic

16     was never processed with regard to the commodity reserves.

17        Q.   Yes, as I said to you, I have no interest in whether this was a

18     genuine or false allegation.  My only query is why this should have gone

19     to Karadzic.

20             Did Mr. Karadzic, from your knowledge of him, take an interest in

21     Mr. Stanisic?

22        A.   Could you please be more specific.

23        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]... in other words, was Mr. Karadzic

24     particularly interested in Mr. Stanisic in -- in respect of having him in

25     the police?

Page 9436

 1        A.   I was in charge of the personnel policy, as far as the Serbs are

 2     concerned.  I had no suggestions from Mr. Karadzic.  I only had

 3     suggestions from the local people in powers, and both my colleagues,

 4     Muslims and Croats had problems with that.

 5             As far as Mr. Karadzic is concerned, he never called me and asked

 6     me to appoint anyone.

 7             Anyway, there was a totally different procedure of appointing

 8     lower-ranking officers in the police.  The leadership of any party,

 9     including the ruling party, decided only about the top positions in the

10     ministry.  The first five positions.  Everything else was nominated and

11     decided by regional political leaderships of the three ruling parties,

12     the SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ.  We in the MUP headquarters would decide

13     who would be appointed to each position.  I was never in my life asked

14     about Mico Stanisic by Dr. Karadzic.

15             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I don't think I can do much with

16     it at this stage except to ask to be marked for identification, even

17     though he has recognised the signature, or the -- sorry, one last

18     question before we leave the document.

19        Q.   Does the stamp look, to you, like the stamp that you used?

20        A.   Excuse me, Madam Prosecutor.  I can't recognise the signature,

21     but the name of Momcilo Janjetovic I know.  I know who this is.  I don't

22     know whether this is his signature or not.  I know that this man existed,

23     and I know that he was employed in lower-ranking bodies of the police,

24     but I have never seen his signature.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I don't believe there is enough

Page 9437

 1     grounds even for --

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can I finish?  I haven't finished.  I have not

 3     finished on the document.  I was interrupted.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry I thought you offered it for MFI.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, one last question.

 6             Can I go back to the stamp, please.  On the front page.  First

 7     page in each.

 8        Q.   Now, can you have another look at it and tell us whether that is

 9     in fact the stamp of your ministry.

10        A.   You see that it says the regional secretariat.

11        Q.   Mm-hm.  So is that your stamp?

12        A.   Just give me a moment.  Of course it's not.  My headquarters were

13     at the republican level, not regional.  And it says here the centre --

14     this secretariat -- well, this seal was not used by the Ministry of the

15     Interior.  This was the stamp of a lower-ranking organisational unit.  It

16     says here "centre," whereas, where I worked, it was called

17     "administration."

18             And I had no secretariat whatsoever.  You can see here on the

19     top, it says, "secretariat," Madam Prosecutor.  I didn't have any

20     secretariats.  I only had an administration within the ministry.  So this

21     is not the stamp that was used at the ministry headquarters.  This is a

22     security centre, probably the Sarajevo security centre.  It's a totally

23     different local organisational unit.  It is nothing to do with the

24     ministry.

25             You see, it says here, "secretariat," and then below, you see the

Page 9438

 1     word "centre."  I really don't know.  I can't say for sure.

 2        Q.   All right, Mr. Mandic, that's all I ask.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I don't have -- well, I do have

 4     a strong view.  I think it should be marked for identification.  I

 5     certainly can't have it admitted at this stage as an exhibit; I accept

 6     that.  But we have asked a lot of questions about, and he knows, at the

 7     very at least - just a moment Mr. Zecevic - the guy who compiled report.

 8             Now can you object.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.  I'm really sorry, I thought

10     you finished already.

11             Your Honours, my objection is that this document be MFI'd at all.

12     This document allegedly is signed by this witness.  The witness confirms

13     that it's not his signature.  He never saw the document.  The person who

14     -- who allegedly wrote the report was never employed in his

15     administration, and he -- he claims that the -- that the -- that the

16     stamp is -- is not of his administration.

17             Therefore, I don't see -- I don't see any -- any reason

18     whatsoever that we -- that we can -- that this document reaches the

19     threshold to be MFI'd, that's all, at this point at least.

20             Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             I agree with Mr. Zecevic.  This -- the Prosecution may have to

23     return to this document through another witness.  But as far as this

24     witness goes, it doesn't, as Mr. Zecevic has said, even reach a threshold

25     to be marked for identification.

Page 9439

 1             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Your Honours, then, can I just make sure

 2     it's on the record, so if we do decide to go back to it -- it's a

 3     document dated 16th October, 1991, and it has the ERN number SA023297.

 4     All right.

 5        Q.   Next, then, Mr. Mandic, can we ask you, please, to have a look at

 6     - yes - some Assembly minutes.

 7             Now, can I ask you, first of all, did you attend the Assemblies

 8     of the Serbian People during the course of 1992 as a minister?

 9        A.   Very frequently.  Quite often.  I may not have attended all of

10     the Assembly sessions, but I was there very frequently.

11        Q.   All right.  Well, then, can I ask you, please, to have a look at

12     part of the record of the Assembly of the 25th of February, 1992, which

13     is 914 -- sorry, P427.9.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, can we have the tab number, please.

15             MS. KORNER:  Mm-hm.  It's 25.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   I'd like to ask you, first of all, about something that

19     Savo Knezovic said.  You knew Savo Knezovic, do you?

20        A.   I don't remember that man.  Probably he was a deputy.  I knew

21     him.

22        Q.   The ex-Orthodox priest.  Does that help?

23        A.   I wasn't a very practicing religious person at that time, and I

24     didn't know any priests.

25        Q.   All right, well, can we look, please -- well, no, he wasn't a

Page 9440

 1     priest at the time.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, at page 48 in the English; and

 3     in the B/C/S, it's got 61 at the top.  And it is the second paragraph in

 4     B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Mr. Knezovic was saying that:

 6             "Until very recently we were saying that the Yugoslav Army which

 7     we consider almost a Serbian army, that that army would protect Serbian

 8     interests in all parts of Yugoslavia."

 9             Now was that something that you thought as well, that the

10     Yugoslav Army was -- was a Serb army?

11        A.   I didn't think that the Yugoslav Army was a Serb army.  Never.

12        Q.   Did -- did anyone -- well, here Mr. Knezovic saying:  "What about

13     others, Mr. Karadzic, for example?"

14        A.   I don't know about that.  I don't know what -- what either

15     Knezovic or Karadzic thought.  The Yugoslav Army was composed of members

16     of all ethnic groups.

17        Q.   All right.  So you don't know how Mr. Knezovic came to be saying

18     that, because he says:

19             "Until very recently, we were saying that the Yugoslav Army,

20     which we consider almost a Serbian army."

21        A.   I don't know who this person Knezovic is.  If he wasn't a deputy,

22     what was he?  I don't know the man.

23        Q.   All right.

24        A.   I don't know who Savo Knezovic is.

25        Q.   Let's move on to somebody who you did know.  Mr. Dukic.  You did

Page 9441

 1     know Mr. Dukic, didn't you?

 2        A.   You mean General Dukic.

 3        Q.   No.  Rajko Dukic.  If we can go to the next page --

 4        A.   That's Rajko Dukic.  Yes, I knew him.

 5        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... can we move, then, please, to the next

 6     page in English; and in B/C/S, it's on page 63.  It's two pages on.

 7             All right.  Mr. Dukic decides to give some figures.  In 1971, 37

 8     of the population was Serb; 39 per cent Muslim.  In 1981, Serbs made up

 9     32 per cent, and Muslim 39.  And you know the data, et cetera, for 1991.

10     Which means by the time the next census, Muslims will account for

11     51 per cent and Serbs for 27.  This means that in a state like that,

12     where it was possible to have this kind of demographic explosion, that we

13     would be put in a position where others would have an absolute majority

14     and where they could make decisions about all issues in their favour

15     without difficulty.

16             Now, Mr. Mandic, was that something that was discussed on a

17     number of occasions that it would appear that the Muslims were

18     demographically exploding, as, as it were?

19        A.   Can you please tell me the year that these minutes were taken?

20     Was that an Assembly session, or was it a meeting of the political

21     leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party?

22        Q.   No.  It was the Assembly on 25th of February, 1992.

23        A.   It was only in February that I met Rajko Dukic.  I saw him for

24     the first time then.  He was a mining engineer.  I don't know where he

25     came -- where he got this information.  Everybody was playing with

Page 9442

 1     statistics.  This man was in charge of the bauxite mine in Milici, and in

 2     early 1991 he was at the head of the personnel commission who interviewed

 3     me and who agreed with my appointment to the position of the assistant

 4     minister.  How come that he is talking about demographic issues, I really

 5     don't know.

 6        Q.   Right, now, Mr. Mandic, concentrate on the question.  I wasn't

 7     asking about Mr. Dukic, although I will come back to that in a moment.  I

 8     was asking whether at the Assembly sessions you were attending and other

 9     meetings, the so-called population explosion of the Muslims was

10     discussed?

11        A.   I don't remember that.

12        Q.   All right.  Now next, let's return to Mr. Dukic --

13             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, when you reach a convenient point, we'll

14     take the break.

15             MS. KORNER:  Certainly.  I'm more or less --

16        Q.   He in fact, did he not, and certainly at the time of the

17     barricades incident in March, was head of the SDS Crisis Staff?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.  And he was the president of the Executive

19     Board of the Serbian Democratic Party which is number two in the Serbian

20     party after Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  As far as the Serbian Democratic Party

21     was concerned.

22             MS. KORNER:  All right, well, I've just got -- Your Honours, if

23     can I just finish this document, and that's the last.

24        Q.   Just one other quote.  Could we move to Mr. Kupresanin.  Did you

25     know him, Vojo Kupresanin?

Page 9443

 1        A.   Not person.  I knew that he was from the Krajina, that he was

 2     some official from the SAO Krajina.  I personally didn't know him, but I

 3     knew who he was.

 4        Q.   All right.  Can we look, please, in English at page 59, and in

 5     B/C/S, at 74.

 6             Mr. Kupresanin says -- it's the -- yeah, fourth paragraph in

 7     B/C/S.  And this is all around the time of the plebescite:

 8             "I am against any kind of joint institution with Muslims and

 9     Croats.  I personally consider them to be our natural enemies.  You

10     already know what natural enemies are, and we can never again live

11     together.  We can never again do anything together."

12             Now, did you hear others apart from Mr. Kupresanin express these

13     kinds of sentiments?

14        A.   Are you referring to the period before the war, during the war,

15     or after the war?

16        Q.   I'm referring to the period before the conflict broke out in

17     April 1992.

18        A.   I've been listening to the same things from 1990 until 2010.

19        Q.   Yes.  At the moment, I'm concerned with whether these sort of

20     sentiments were expressed by others in the government or in the Assembly,

21     apart from Mr. Kupresanin?

22        A.   Believe me, Madam Prosecutor, that there were other people who

23     were playing on the Serbian card and trying to ingratiate themselves to

24     Karadzic and others.  After that, they would go with their Muslim and

25     Croat brothers and have coffee.

Page 9444

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That's all I'm going to

 3     ask on that document.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  We resume in 20 minutes.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 5.49 p.m.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, just -- there's one

 9     intervention in the transcript.  At the very end of -- of his answer, the

10     last answer that the witness gave, he gave -- he characterised the

11     behaviour of these people as "Srbovanje," and it wasn't -- it wasn't

12     translated.  It's a slang.  It is relatively hard word to translate, but

13     I was consulting with -- with the interpreters booth, and they say,

14     beating -- "beating the Serbian drum" might be the closest explanation of

15     that word, if that could be confirmed.

16             Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let's hear the interpreters on the matter.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Well, agreed, it was -- it was a suggestion,

19     "blowing the Serbian horn," or whatever.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Just for clarification, could we locate or

21     identify the word which we are discussing.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  It was Srbovanje, S-r-b-o-v-a-n-j-e.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  And in the English transcript where

24     do we find this word?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  That was the answer at page 61, line 17.  It

Page 9445

 1     currently says:  "Playing the Serbian card, trying to ingratiate

 2     themselves with Karadzic and others."

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  Before Ms. Korner starts, I just forgot to say that

 6     our client, Mr. Zupljanin, is not present today.  He sent the waiver.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, thank you, we were alerted to this last week.

 8     Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And before Ms. Korner takes the floor, could I

10     just address one little matter for the record.

11             I think, Mr. Mandic, that when you started your testimony, you

12     told us your birthday.  And your birthday was recorded in the transcript

13     as being the 1st of May.  But I noticed that on your statement, it's the

14     5th of January.

15             So I wonder if there's a mistake.  1/5, or 5/1.  So could we just

16     clarify for the record, when actually your birthday?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1st of May, the Labour Day.  It was

18     three days ago.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

20             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Can I now ask you, please, to have a look at 65 ter 10 -- oh, no,

22     it is P727.

23             It's a record of a -- of a recording of -- of one of your

24     telephone conversations, Mr. Mandic.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have a tab number, please.

Page 9446

 1             MS. KORNER:  Oh, tab number, yeah.  It's 123.

 2        Q.   Not the easiest to read because I'm afraid it's handwriting.

 3             You apparently rang up somebody called Samir on the 18th March,

 4     and there was a problem, and Samir then called you back.  Can we -- we

 5     can look at some of the content of this conversation, but can you tell us

 6     who Samir was?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   All right.  Well --

 9        A.   It's obvious that this is a Muslim.

10        Q.   Yes.  All right.  The first part of the conversation is all about

11     a Mr. Latic.  And then can we go, in the English, to the bottom of

12     page 3.  And, unfortunately, I don't appear to have marked the part I

13     want.

14             You say that the Vito Zepinic, the Assembly of the Serb People

15     have disowned him.  And this is the 18th of March.  I'm really sorry, I

16     should have marked this for you, but I haven't, which was a mistake.

17             And you go on to say:

18             "They do not count on him any longer and a procedure will be

19     initiated to disassociate them from him and to relieve him of his duty."

20             And Samir said that is the right thing to do.

21             And Samir asked you:

22             "Who is the candidate for his position?  It's Mico, isn't it?"

23             And you said:  "Yes, it is Mico."

24             Does that remind you of this conversation?  I'm not sure whether

25     we can find it in the handwritten part.

Page 9447

 1        A.   Vito Zepinic resigned on the 4th of April, I think, from his post

 2     of deputy minister of the interior.  He did that at the office of

 3     Momcilo Krajisnik, then Speaker of the Assembly.  I can't remember who

 4     Samir is.

 5        Q.   All right, but all I want to know is, were you aware on the 18th

 6     of March that Mico Stanisic was likely to be appointed minister of the

 7     interior?

 8        A.   Most probably.  Most probably.  I suppose somebody informed me.

 9     I can't be positive.

10        Q.   All right.  And why Mico Stanisic, rather than you?  Because you

11     were in the senior position.

12        A.   I can only use my common sense and logic to try to infer why I

13     was elected, not Mico Stanisic.  I think, as I said before the first

14     break, Mico Stanisic -- sorry.  Vitomir Zepinic had already become chief

15     of the Serbian police, but we found out he took bribes and was corrupt.

16     Djeric suggested that Mico Stanisic become minister of the police,

17     because he was probably -- most probably because he was already a member

18     of the Ministerial Council without portfolio or maybe because they hailed

19     from the same area, the mount of Romanija.  I can only guess.  Or perhaps

20     it was because there was no time to elect a new member of the

21     Ministerial Council or because Mico was the obvious choice because of his

22     qualities, or perhaps because Djeric hailed from the same area.  You have

23     to ask that question, either of Djeric or -- or the boss of the -- the

24     party boss, Karadzic.

25        Q.   All right.  But that's why I'm asking you, because we can go back

Page 9448

 1     to the Ministerial Council.  Stanisic was appointed to the

 2     Ministerial Council and not you.  So why was that?  Given, as I say, at

 3     that stage, you held the higher position.

 4        A.   I really can't answer.  I don't know.

 5        Q.   Were you aware of Mico Stanisic's political affiliations?

 6        A.   Well, as far as I know, Mico was not a member of the Serbian

 7     Democratic Party, but he was good Serb, born in an area populated mostly

 8     by Serbs.  And one possible reason is that, towards the end of 1991, at

 9     one meeting of the professional collegium at the minister of the police,

10     Delimustafic and I suggested that we arrest both Radovan Karadzic and

11     Izetbegovic, and these people of course ran to warn them, so people no

12     longer had any confidence in us.  And I was probably regarded as unsuited

13     to the post; likewise, Delimustafic among his own people.

14        Q.   Did you ever inquire of either Mr. Djeric or Mr. Karadzic why it

15     was that you had been, as it were, overlooked for Mico Stanisic?

16        A.   I got a very good position myself.  I had worked in the justice

17     department for seven or eight years before that, and I thought it was an

18     honour to become a minister of justice.  And the work suited me, although

19     I had been in the police for many years before that.

20             Mico was not even mentioned.  And there was no -- there were no

21     hard feelings between us on that account, certainly.

22        Q.   All right.  Well, I don't think I'm going to take that further.

23             Can we leave that, please, because it is already an exhibit, and

24     can we look --

25        A.   But I think, personally, that Djeric, the prime minister, decided

Page 9449

 1     that Mico Stanisic should be the minister of the police.  He made the

 2     decision and he said so at one meeting.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, next at document which is --

 4     yep.  It's 10312, please.

 5             Now, Your Honours, this is not on the 65 ter list, but I want to

 6     ask about the contents.  Oh, and it's tab 30 for Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, if I can be of any assistance, Ms. Korner,

 8     just the -- that you don't say that I always am objecting, I'm trying to

 9     assist you on this.  If -- in fact, this document has -- has had the

10     number 65 ter 1825, and it was proposed for withdrawal, although some

11     time ago.  So I don't know if I was of assistance.

12             The 65 ter -- the 1013 -- the document that you called right now,

13     10312 has already been on your 65 ter list as 1825.  But then it was

14     proposed for withdrawal.

15             MS. KORNER:  Put one way or another, is it on our 65 ter list or

16     isn't it?

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  You will have to figure that yourself.  Thank you.

18             MS. KORNER:  One way or another.

19        Q.   Anyhow, Mr. Mandic, I want to ask you about this -- no, I don't.

20     I don't want to ask about that document at all.  I want to ask you

21     about --

22             MS. KORNER:  It should be 10312 or -- no, it is 10312, and that's

23     definitely not it.  Should be a document dated the 18th of March with the

24     number 0063-7180.  Yep.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, is that -- is that your signature at the bottom?

Page 9450

 1        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

 2        Q.   And also you're described there as MR. Momcilo Mandic.

 3             I'd like to ask you, this is the 18th of March, so it is more or

 4     less -- in fact, I think it's the same day as that intercept we looked

 5     at.  Why were you sending to the CSBs and to the SUP a document saying:

 6             "I also wish to inform you may no longer submit to the MUP any

 7     information relating to the work of crime-investigation services ... that

 8     a dispatch signed by the assistant minister in charge of duties and tasks

 9     relating to crime prevention and detection or the minister himself"?

10        A.   I only asked for compliance with the rules of the service and the

11     Law on the Interior.

12        Q.   Well, you start off by -- by saying that Mr. Zepinic requested

13     information and had abused his authority in doing so.

14             Why had he abused his authority in doing so?

15        A.   Because he was not supposed to bypass the chief of administration

16     in asking for such information.  He was only deputy minister.  Only the

17     minister was allowed to ask for information without my consent and

18     without informing me.  So he abused his authority as deputy minister and

19     failed to comply with the Law on Internal Affairs and the rules of the

20     service.  In fact, by that time, he was already corrupt and bribed, and

21     he was working in circumvention of his own rights and powers.

22        Q.   So it wasn't anything to do with the fact that he wasn't trusted

23     as Serb.  It was thought he was too friendly with Muslims and Croats.

24        A.   We were all on good terms with one another and had respect for

25     each other, Serbs and Muslims.  But Zepinic had received a Mazda 626 and

Page 9451

 1     residence in a neighbourhood called Bosko Buha, and he received that from

 2     the SDS party, not from any physical person.  To be more precise, from

 3     the wing of the SDA [realtime transcript read in error "SDS"] that had

 4     begun already to set up a Muslim army within the ranks of the police.

 5     The vehicle was later found and -- and confiscated.

 6             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Well, Your Honours, at the moment I'm

 7     still not clear whether it's on our list or not.

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MS. KORNER:  Well, I don't think it is on our list.  It's a

10     document signed by Mr. Mandic, but if Mr. Zecevic wants to object, then

11     -- I don't imagine he does, actually.  He want it is in, yes.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, I don't want to object.  But I just want to

13     be of additional assistance.  It is already exhibited.  It is 1D119.

14             And Your Honours for the transcript, 68, page 21 [sic] it says in

15     the transcript SDS party and I believe the witness said SDA party.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Sorry, do I understand, Mr. Zecevic,

17     that this document is already exhibited?

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, that is correct, Your Honours, 1D119.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  You're welcome.

21             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  We are indeed grateful for the Defence assistance

23     to the Prosecution's case.

24             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 9452

 1             MS. KORNER:  I think the objections only come when it's documents

 2     they don't want in.  When they want them in, there is no objection.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  I was objecting as a matter of principle, and I was

 4     trying to assist you, Ms. Korner.  And -- it happens that it was already

 5     exhibited, so ...

 6             MS. KORNER:  Well, thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic.

 7        Q.   All right, Mr. Mandic, leaving aside all that.  Can we now look,

 8     please, again at a document around this period, which is -- which is ...

 9     yes, it's 65 -- no, sorry, it's P532.  And it's tab 124.

10             This is an interview you gave to "Javnost," is that right, on the

11     28th of March?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And if we look, please, at the second page in English, and I'm

14     afraid I cannot assist at all where it is in this article, there's

15     discussion about Mr. Latic who was referred to again in this conversation

16     with Samir.  And then you were asked about the conflict between you and

17     Dr. Zepinic.

18             And, finally, the reporter says to you:

19             "Dr. Zepinic was promoting undivided MUP at every public

20     appearance of his.  How do you comment on that?"

21             And you said:

22             "I am all for undivided MUP, as man of this profession who spent

23     all of his life dealing with this and similar affairs."

24             You had attend, hadn't you, Mr. Mandic, the 11th of

25     February meeting in Banja Luka?  You dealt with that in your previous

Page 9453

 1     testimony.

 2        A.   Well, if I may, Madam Prosecutor, I'd like to explain this

 3     interview and to add a few points.

 4             The executive staff in the police was appointed by ethnicity:

 5     The first man was a Muslim, the second a Serb, the third a Croat.  That

 6     was the principle.  And the staff consisted of people who knew each

 7     other, respected each other, respected their profession, and mutual

 8     tolerance.

 9             In the beginning of 1993 [as interpreted], Ilma Salimovic, a

10     Muslim, was replaced without any explanation at the initiative of the

11     Muslim SDA party which was then in power.  And he was replaced by

12     Mirsad Srebrenkovic who had worked in the Mesihat of one big mosque in

13     Croatia.  He was citizen of Croatia, not Bosnia.  Because by that time

14     Croatia was already an independent country.  This was a man who, among

15     other things, used to be a teacher at the Mesihat, and the man who was

16     replaced was well respected among his colleague.  He was replaced by a

17     hodza, practically, who became responsible for all the personnel in the

18     police.  And that then came the breakup of the municipal.  On top of

19     that, there was Vitomir Zepinic, prone to bribery and corruption, and

20     then things ripped at the seems completely.

21             Let me say one more thing.  The parties in power had very

22     unreasonable demands of us in places where no Muslim was the top man, a

23     Muslim had to be appointed at all costs at the demand of the SDA.  The

24     SDS did the same.  They insisted on appointments of their own people.

25             We, in the MUP, tried to accommodate this, and we took a unified

Page 9454

 1     stand towards the parties to keep the MUP united.  With the arrival of

 2     this man who came from a mosque into the police force, the united MUP

 3     started ripping at all seams, which I hated to see.  And to this day,

 4     that man is still working in the Mesihat of the Zagreb mosque in Croatia,

 5     Mirsad Srebrenkovic is his name.

 6             Now can you imagine me with 20 years of service in the police;

 7     Bruno Stojic, ten; and all the other people meeting this man, a Muslim,

 8     coming from a mosque, who is unable to speak Serbian [as interpreted].

 9     See those people in -- in short three-quarter trousers being appointed to

10     the police force as executives.  And that was the reason.  And that's --

11     that's the truth of my interview.

12             And let me just tell you one more thing.  When it all ended --

13             MS. KORNER:  Stop, Mr. Mandic.  You said all that in this

14     interview.  And the only question I asked you, the only question I asked

15     you is whether you attended the meeting on February the 11th.

16        A.   I attend all the meetings of the executive staff of the Serbian

17     ethnicity of in the common MUP.  Because this man arrived in the end of

18     1991, and the meeting in Banja Luka was in the beginning of

19     February 1992.  By that time, the joint MUP had already fallen apart

20     completely, and we had hundreds of people who arrived from other states,

21     Muslims, to work in the police, without any vetting, without any prior

22     information to us, and in numbers exceeding the job specification

23     arrangements.  And they were imposed by executives of Muslim ethnicity.

24     Bratunac, Zvornik, Srebrenica.  People would call and say, A man came to

25     us, he can't speak Serbian.

Page 9455

 1        Q.   Mr. Mandic --

 2        A.   He came to work in the police.

 3        Q.   Just wait --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, just intervention in the transcript.  On

 5     page -- I'm sorry, Your Honours, on page 71, line 1, says in the

 6     transcript in the beginning of 1993, and I believe witness said at the

 7     end of 1991, and he confirmed that on page 72, line 9.  And then 71,

 8     line 24, he said, Who is unable to speak Serbo-Croatian.  That is the --

 9     that is the -- actually, the language that we used in -- in the former

10     Yugoslavia, as -- as the official language.  Serbo-Croatian or

11     Croato-Serbian.  So -- and the same thing is for 72, 15.

12             Thank you.

13             MS. KORNER:  Right.

14        Q.   All, Mr. Mandic - thank you for that explanation - that I wanted

15     to know is, by the time you gave this interview to the "Javnost" in end

16     of March 1992, you had been involved, hadn't you, for some months in --

17     in the breakup of the old BiH MUP?

18        A.   No.  It was broken up by Mirsad Srebrenkovic and one wing of the

19     political leadership of the SDA party.  I spent my whole life living and

20     working together with Muslims, and it couldn't cross my mind to break up

21     the joint MUP.  All that I gained in my life and learned in my life, I

22     learned together with Muslims.  But I didn't want to have this man

23     charting personnel policy having come from the mosque into the police

24     force, and he broke five times a day to pray in the mosque.  What if I

25     wanted to leave work and pray in the church?  And criticism and

Page 9456

 1     expressions of dissatisfaction came in from all sides, and we had to

 2     respond.

 3        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I understand --

 4        A.   And Alija Delimustafic was totally unable to cope with this

 5     particular problem.

 6        Q.   Did you, yourself, make any attempts, together with Mr. Zepinic,

 7     who was not in favour of breaking up the MUP, to get rid of this person

 8     you say was no good?  And, really, I'd like a simple straightforward

 9     answer, please.

10        A.   Zepinic was an inconsequential figure.  He was bribed.  He didn't

11     dare do anything.  He didn't dare to even speak to this Srebrenkovic

12     because he had also paid him off.  And that's the worse thing in anywhere

13     in any trade, especially in the police.

14        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  That's all I want to ask you

15     about that article.

16             MS. KORNER:  Can we move now, please, to the next document, which

17     is ... just a moment.  I've just got to change my binders.

18        Q.   This is one questioning relating to an intercept, please.

19             MS. KORNER:  It's document 3224.

20        Q.   Between you and somebody called Kepes.

21             MS. KORNER:  Tab 38.

22        Q.   Can you tell us who Milenko Kepes was.

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Well, you were talking to him apparently.

25        A.   Could you be mistaken about the last name?

Page 9457

 1        Q.   If you have a look.  Could you have a look at the screen.

 2        A.   I am looking at the screen, Kepes.  Milenko Kepes.

 3        Q.   You don't know who that is, although you had a long conversation

 4     with him?

 5        A.   Let me -- let me see what we talked about.  If you could sort of

 6     leaf through this intercept.  How many pages are there?

 7        Q.   You appear to be discussing --

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I can be assistance, maybe it would be easier

 9     for the witness to shuffle through the pages.

10             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I see.  Yes.  Thank you very much.

11        Q.   Yes, if you just have a quick look.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Because it's in Serbian, so ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Milenko Karisik, commander

14     of the Serbian specials.  It is not Kepes.

15             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Thank you very much.

16        A.   That's why I was confused.  It was Milenko Karisik, not

17     Milenko Kepes.  He was Deputy Commander of the joint special force,

18     Dragan Minkic.

19        Q.   Right.  Is that -- Vukic, isn't it, who was commander of the

20     special forces?  Vikic.

21        A.   Vikic.  Dragan Vikic.

22        Q.   All right, thank you.  Well, that explains that.

23             Yes, can I ask you to look, please, at the transcript of another

24     intercept around this same time.  It's 1067.

25             This is you, Mr. Mandic, talking to somebody called Vukovic.

Page 9458

 1        A.   Yes.  I listened to this recording earlier today.  It was in

 2     April.  You see at the top 18th of April.  I was still on the police

 3     force.  We had received information that the Territorial Defence, that is

 4     members of the Territorial Defence of Muslim ethnicity, were about to

 5     make a raid on the factory in Vogosca to seize weapons, so I informed

 6     Vukota Vukovic whom I did not know, actually, and told him to take care

 7     of that to prevent this theft of weapons by Muslim members of the

 8     Territorial Defence, because we had received a report that they were

 9     about to raid the factory and take the weapons by force.

10        Q.   And all I want to know is, who was this gentleman, or who were

11     you speaking to?  Was he army or TO or ...

12        A.   He was a military man employed at that military factory producing

13     weapons.  I don't know the man personally, but he was a brother at work

14     colleague of mine.  But I had never met the man.

15        Q.   Ans this is the same Vikic who had been with Karisik, the

16     commander of the special brigade of the police; is that right?

17        A.   I don't know if this is the same person or someone else who was

18     leading those Muslim members of the Territorial Defence.  It is possible

19     that it's the same person, but I'm not sure.

20             The armed conflict in Sarajevo had already begun.

21        Q.   All right.  Your -- you're talking about Ustashas.  Was Vikic a

22     Croat?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   All right.

25        A.   Half Croat, half Serb.

Page 9459

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Next, can we look, please, at -- yeah.  Please,

 3     Exhibit 1162.  It's tab 44.

 4        Q.   Now I think you listened to this one - oh, sorry - today, the

 5     actual tape.  And it's Karadzic talking apparently to Stanisic.

 6             Were you able to recognise the voices?

 7        A.   I think I recognised the voices of Mico Stanisic and

 8     Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  But I don't know what they were talking about.

 9     But I definitely recognised their voices.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, I want to come on to what they were talking

11     about, because we just played enough for you --

12             It appears they are talking about you, because if we look at the

13     context, it says:

14             "There's a problem this morning.  They released them this

15     morning."

16             And they're asked -- Dr. Karadzic asked - this is the 18th of

17     April:  "Who released them?"

18             And Mico Stanisic said:  "It seems Momo did."

19             "Why?"

20             And then over the page -- go over the page in B/C/S as well.

21             "I don't know.  He didn't [sic] -- he released some ten guys this

22     morning (Mico is talking to Momo in the office).  Momo released them,

23     they were [sic] his neighbours over there because of the parents and

24     this ..."

25             And does that remind you what this was about?

Page 9460

 1        A.   Yes, Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   Who had you released and about which Dr. Karadzic was getting so

 3     annoyed?

 4        A.   I don't know what was conveyed to Dr. Karadzic, but I know it was

 5     about children, even minors, or young adults who were walking around the

 6     Mount Igman armed.  They were playing war, and they were arrested by the

 7     police.  They were brought to the school.  I gave them some sandwiches

 8     and then let them go home.  And I received calls from their parents who

 9     were acquaintances of mine.  I didn't believe it was proper for them to

10     be detained, and that's why I sent them back.  Probably somebody informed

11     Dr. Karadzic that this was some very serious army in question or even

12     territorials.  I think this is what it is all about.

13        Q.   I see.  So you're saying that the police had arrested children.

14     Was this up in the direction of Vrace?  You said Mount Igman.  But was

15     this anything to do with Vrace?

16        A.   Well, it is probably in the Serb-held territory.

17        Q.   All right.  Because it goes on to say later on --

18             MS. KORNER:  Can we look at the third page, please.  I think it

19     says there that:

20             "Momo should be transferred to the Ministry of Justice.  Do it

21     for Christ's sake."

22             And Mico replies:  "That what's I was saying.  That cannot be

23     done like that.  Ten terrorists were let go, man; we're going to lose the

24     war."

25        Q.   Now what would Mico Stanisic have to do with transferring you to

Page 9461

 1     the Ministry of Justice?

 2        A.   I have no idea, believe me.

 3        Q.   And you -- as far as you're concerned, you didn't let ten

 4     terrorists go; you let ten children go.

 5        A.   In my opinion, those were children who took arms and played war.

 6     Probably according to the rules of service, I should have handed them

 7     over to the military.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9        A.   And I was trying to justify my actions to Karadzic because he

10     received information that those were terrorists.  Because they -- they

11     were armed in the Serb-held terrorists.  And I knew those children.  They

12     were not terrorists.  I didn't agree then with the views of my bosses.

13        Q.   Later on, and I'm not going trouble you with you it, you said to

14     -- you actually took over the phone yourself and said that these were

15     young men -- you told Dr. Karadzic these were young men from Hrasnica

16     where your parents live.

17        A.   Yes, yes.  That was a Muslim-dominated place, but I knew those

18     children, and I knew I should let them go.  But who informed Mr. Karadzic

19     that these individuals were terrorist, I don't know.

20        Q.   And when you told us a minute ago that you didn't agree with the

21     views of your bosses, which views didn't you agree with?

22        A.   In this specific case, I believed that the persons involved were

23     not terrorist but, rather, children playing war.  They were playing with

24     fire.

25        Q.   And by your bosses, who did you mean?

Page 9462

 1        A.   I meant President Karadzic.  Because he had been informed that

 2     those were terrorists, and I believe the opposite, that they were not the

 3     terrorists.  I don't know who passed this information to him.  It was

 4     irrelevant to me.  Those were children who were hungry.  I ordered

 5     somebody to make them sandwiches, and I let them go home.

 6        Q.   All right.  And apparently Mico Stanisic didn't -- did

 7     Mico Stanisic know that these were children?

 8        A.   No.  Mico Stanisic was not in Vrace.  He was at Pale.  He was

 9     probably wrongly informed too.  You know, you have this kind of flanked

10     channels of information.  Everybody was informing the President of the

11     state about an imminent danger or something like that.  I believe that

12     Mico himself didn't know what this was all about either.

13        Q.   Just a moment.  You took over the telephone from Mico Stanisic so

14     the two of you were together.

15        A.   He came later, and we discussed this.  When this event happened,

16     I was on my own.  As far as executive of the Serbian police in Vrace were

17     concerned, Mico was at the MUP headquarters in Pale.  It was my own

18     decision and I carried it out.  Now, who informed the then president

19     Mr. Karadzic and the minister of the police that I let some people go, I

20     don't know.  It must have been someone from amongst my associates.  They

21     wanted to show off and alarm people about the danger threatening the

22     Serbian Republic.

23        Q.   All right.  That's all I want to ask but that document; thank you

24     very much.

25             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, please, now at a document which we

Page 9463

 1     haven't looked at before, which is 372.  Tab 46.

 2        Q.   Is that your -- is that a stamp and signature -- and your

 3     signature again?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, it is.

 5        Q.   All right.  It's an order dated the 19th of April to the public

 6     security stations in Sarajevo.  Talking about the organisational patrols,

 7     seizing vehicles, and seizing items for which the owner cannot not prove

 8     origin and hand them over to the nearest police station.

 9             You signed that order.  Where was Mico Stanisic at this point?

10        A.   I did in this coordination with the then minister, he knew about

11     this order of mine, which is in compliance with the rules of service to

12     present escalation of crime, everything that I listed here, violence,

13     terror, robberies, et cetera, and to try to protect the life and limb and

14     the property of citizens.

15        Q.   Yes, the last thing that you ordered under item 4 was, Urgently

16     order the -- organise the crime service and these activities in the field

17     including, amongst others, the execution of on-site investigations.

18             What was the necessity for this?

19        A.   Well, this is in accordance with the Law on the Interior, and

20     it's all in the line of the work of the CID, to detect crimes, to work in

21     the field, and possibly, if any crime, like robbery or murder was

22     detected, to carry out crime-scene investigation and to document the

23     event.  This is according to the Rules of Service and the Law on

24     Interior.  I had been working in that environment for 15 years.

25        Q.   Exactly.  That's what I want to ask you.  Why, as it was in the

Page 9464

 1     law, was it necessary for you to tell the police to carry out the law?

 2        A.   Well, you always have to give tasks to police and to try to push

 3     them to work.  That's how things work.  I'm talking about the local

 4     police and the lower-ranking police officers.  That's why you have

 5     executives and bosses who are going to push the people beneath them to

 6     perform their work.

 7        Q.   Yes.  But was it --

 8        A.   I mean, this is customary.  These kind of orders were a customary

 9     thing to be issued by executives in the police force, to protect the

10     property, individuals, public law and order and to prevent theft,

11     robberies, murders, et cetera, because we were witnessing escalation

12     because, on the 6th, the armed conflicts in Sarajevo started.  And groups

13     of people emerged on both sides.  And, of course, in coordination with

14     Mr. Stanisic, I attempted to reinstate peace and order as much as was

15     possible at the moment, and one of the ways to do that was to issue such

16     an order which is to force people out into the street to do their job and

17     to protect the people and their property.

18        Q.   Right.  That's what I'm asking.  Was the necessity for you to

19     issue such an order the fact that the police was simply not doing their

20     job?

21        A.   I wouldn't put it that way.  It was total chaos.  Everything was

22     in disarray.  You know, you work in a system all your life, and then the

23     system changes.  The organisation changes.  People were lost.  They --

24     they couldn't cope with switching from one system to another.  People had

25     total confusion in their heads, so they needed to be assisted in carrying

Page 9465

 1     out their duties.  That's how I perceived it.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1323, Your Honours.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Can we move, please, next, then, to -- yes,

 8     document 9249, please.  Tab 49.

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Mr. Mandic, just, I want to know about this one.  It's addressed

12     to the minister and the deputy minister, 21st of April.  And as it report

13     if you look at the signature, from the -- Mr. Jesuric, the Bijeljina CSB

14     chief.

15             Did you get that report?

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   Can we go to the second page, please, in the B/C/S?

18        A.   Predrag Jesuric.

19        Q.   Yeah.  Did you get this report?

20        A.   I don't recall that.

21        Q.   Would you, in the normal course of events, have received reports

22     as part of your job as deputy minister?

23        A.   Probably, under normal circumstances, I might have received it,

24     Madam Prosecutor, but I don't remember this document.  Because Jesuric

25     was chief of the Bijeljina centre, including Bijeljina and

Page 9466

 1     Klopere [phoen], and he submitted a report on the situation in those

 2     three towns.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I can't remember who it's been

 4     gone through with, but it has been gone through with somebody.  I can't

 5     remember why it was MFI'd, but I'm asking now that it be admitted.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm not sure I -- I remember why it was MFI'd

 7     myself, but -- I don't -- I don't think that the -- that the sufficient

 8     nexus between this witness and this document has been --

 9             MS. KORNER:  Sent addressed to this witness as a deputy minister,

10     which in the normal course of events he would have received, even if he

11     can't remember this.  I don't know what else one can do with a document

12     like that.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  No objection.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

16             Can I just go back, please, to the document before that, which I

17     missed out by mistake, and that's an intercept record between you and

18     your brother.  And it's P728.

19             Now Mladen Mandic, that's right, was your brother, wasn't he?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And where was he based?

22        A.   On the 21st of April, in Vrace.

23        Q.   All right.  And --

24        A.   Sorry, you can see here that he was in Pale, or I was in Pale.

25     But, in April, he was in Vrace with me; in the second half of April.

Page 9467

 1        Q.   Right.  Exactly.  Because you're in Pale.  Now all I want to ask

 2     you about is, at the second page, where he says to you:

 3             "I hear some of Seselj's Men and these from Vukovar have come,

 4     but they're not very good."

 5             Did you know that paramilitary had been sent there by Seselj?

 6             Sorry, it's the third page in B/C/S; I'm so sorry.

 7        A.   As far as I know, it was not the Seselj's Men.  It was

 8     Brne Gavrilovic, a man from Sarajevo.  He was a member of Seselj's party.

 9     He was born in Grbavica, and he lived on the edges of Sarajevo.  They

10     used to call themselves Seselj's Men, the radicals, et cetera.  But those

11     were Sarajevo people who were members of the Seselj's party, and they

12     were members of the Territorial Defence of Grbavica.

13             They had probably been on the front before, but I know for sure

14     that they lived on the edges of Sarajevo.

15        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  That's all I wanted to ask you.

16             MS. KORNER:  I think, finally, the last document for today,

17     please, then, can we look at document number 52 ... yes, 1338.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Could we have a tab number, please.

19             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, it's tab number 52.

20        Q.   Now, this is dated the 1st of May, so this was before you became

21     minister of justice, wasn't it, Mr. Mandic?

22             MS. KORNER:  If we look --

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   I'm just going to ask you about that.  Because if we go, then, to

25     the last page, which is page 3 in English and page 4 in B/C/S.

Page 9468

 1             It's going out -- under your signature, is that right, even

 2     though I think you didn't sign it?

 3        A.   No, no, no.  This is not my signature.  And it says "for."

 4        Q.   Yeah.  Do you know who signed it on your behalf?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   All right.  Let's go back to the content.

 7             What I want to know is why it's going out under your signature as

 8     minister of justice, as you hadn't been appointed yet.  That's the first

 9     thing I want to know.

10        A.   This should be explained by the person who signed it.  I know

11     that I started signing my documents from the date I was appointed.  That

12     was about two weeks afterwards.

13             Maybe somebody was too hasty.  I was informed towards the end of

14     April about my appointment to the position of the minister, and somebody

15     rushed to send out a kind of -- this kind of letter on behalf of myself

16     as the minister.  I don't know who that person could be.

17        Q.   All right.  Can we go back to the first page, please.

18             It's addressed to the President of the regional -- region's

19     Assemblies of Banja Luka, Sarajevo, Trebinje, Bijeljina, and Doboj, and

20     it refers to the decisions about the functioning of courts and

21     penal/correctional facilities.  And then it sets all of that out.

22             Now, even though you didn't sign this, were you aware that this

23     document was being sent?

24        A.   At the time I didn't know.  I -- I got hold of this document

25     later.  And the sequence of movement was wrong.  It was supposed to be

Page 9469

 1     decided by the Assembly on the forming of the judiciary and prosecutor's

 2     office, and only after that would the Ministry of Justice start working

 3     on that to pass enactments on forming penal and connect correctional

 4     facilities, lower and higher courts, supreme courts, prosecutor's

 5     offices, magistrate courts, et cetera.

 6             Somebody signed this document too early, before all these

 7     decisions were taken.  It must first be decided by the Assembly and the

 8     president of the republic who has constitutional powers during war to

 9     issue such decisions concerning judiciary, prosecutor's office, district

10     prisons attached to district courts, and such-like things.

11        Q.   All right.  But the only point that I want to make apart from the

12     fact that this is setting what has to be done is, were these addressed to

13     the Assemblies of the various autonomous regions, Krajina, Birac, all the

14     rest of it?

15        A.   Republika Srpska was divided into five regions:  Banja Luka,

16     Sarajevo, Herzegovina, Semberija, and Doboj.  It was identical to the

17     situation that prevailed before the war.  And at the level of regions you

18     had, first instance, lower courts, and then district courts for more

19     serious crimes.  And attached to district courts were prisons where

20     people who were under investigation were being kept.

21             So if you have time, I can explain to this.  That is how the

22     remand prison in Banja Luka and Sarajevo were established, as well as in

23     Trebinje, Bijeljina, and Doboj.  In all the five regional centres where

24     the seat of district courts were, those were second instance courts for

25     minor offences, and you have first instance courts for more serious

Page 9470

 1     crimes.  And they were under the jurisdiction of these courts, district

 2     courts, that the prisons were set up.

 3        Q.   Right.

 4             Thank you very much.  All I was trying to establish from this was

 5     whether these areas corresponded with the Serb Autonomous Regions that

 6     had been established.

 7        A.   I don't know whether they coincided with autonomous regions, but

 8     with the regions and the seat of district courts, they did coincide.  I'm

 9     not sure.  This was the scheme and the chart that originates from before

10     the war, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may that be marked and admitted,

13     please.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Is -- is there any objection to this?  Because

15     inasmuch as I understand the witness is saying the document is premature,

16     he speaks generally about it.  He agrees with you about it speaking to

17     these regions, but that's about it.  That's the only --

18             MS. KORNER:  He says he got hold of it after it went out.  He

19     said that -- I can't remember -- Your Honours, I'll find that --

20             JUDGE HALL:  I do remember that answer, and I -- I was waiting

21     for clarification as to how soon afterwards was -- whether it was -- was

22     it within the period that he would have been a minister, or are we

23     talking about something very recent?

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honour, I understood --

25        Q.   Can you tell -- when did you get a hold of this, Mr. Mandic?  Was

Page 9471

 1     it after you were formally appointed; or are you talking about much, much

 2     later?

 3        A.   Much later.  I believe it was one of the OTP investigators who

 4     showed me this document.  Although this document is essentially correct,

 5     it is premature and not really authentic.  Somebody was too much in a

 6     rush in organising the justice department.  There are documents from

 7     later on that follow up on this reorganisation of the whole justice

 8     system and the courts from misdemeanor courts to other courts.  They were

 9     signed by the President of the Republic and enacted by the parliament.

10        Q.   All right.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway, it is 7.00, Ms. Korner, could we return to

12     this tomorrow morning?

13             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, I mean, no.  Let's try and get it

14     out of the way.  Either it's admitted or it's not, you know.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, we object based on what the witness said.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Mandic.

17             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, I appreciate that it's

18     7.00, but, I mean, I don't want to return to this tomorrow morning again.

19        Q.   Mr. Mandic, do you mean to say that in the whole of the time

20     where you were minister of justice, from May until November, you never

21     knew this document had been sent out and never saw it?

22        A.   As can see from the signature, it's not mine.  If the minister

23     has not been appointed, nobody in the whole justice ministry has been

24     appointed.  I don't know who would have had the powers to do this if the

25     minister had not been appointed.  However, as a document, it is

Page 9472

 1     corroborated by later documents that confirm this decision and these

 2     later documents are laws properly signed by the President and adopted by

 3     the Assembly.

 4             Now, on the 1st May, who could have written this, I have no idea.

 5             MS. KORNER:  That's the answer, isn't it, it's corroborated by

 6     later documents?

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway we'll take the adjournment now and resume

 8     tomorrow morning.

 9             I so would prefer to think about this.  And we'll deal with this

10     first thing tomorrow morning.

11             Mr. Mandic, although you would have appeared as a witness

12     previously, I'm obliged to remind you that having been sworn as a

13     witness, you cannot talk with counsel on either side, and such

14     conversations you have outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss your

15     testimony.

16             So we will reconvene tomorrow morning in Courtroom III, at 9.00.

17     Thank you.

18                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of May,

20                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.