Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9734

 1                           Friday, 7 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T.  The

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Good morning to everyone.

 9     May we have the appearances for the record, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slightly addled brain

11     after the election but it's Joanna Korner, Belinda Pidwell again, and

12     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence

15     this morning.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours, Dragan Krgovic and

17     Miroslav Cuskic appearing for the Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, you have something to add.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  He is present this morning.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Oh, he is present this morning.  I'm sorry, I didn't

21     notice.  Yes, could the usher please escort the witness back to the

22     stand.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, while the witness is ushered,

24     yesterday Ms. Korner made an objection, and I was reviewing the

25     transcript and she is absolutely right.  This was an improper question

Page 9735

 1     from my side, and I withdraw that question.  Yeah, actually comment.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So noted, Mr. Zecevic.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Zecevic.  Mr. Mandic, you

 6     are still on your oath.

 7                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:  [Continued]

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic.  We have to go through

11     yesterday's transcript to deal with a number of things.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 9653

13     [Realtime transcript read in error "963"], line 4.

14        Q.   It was said that in the fall of 1991 Denkovic arrived at the MUP,

15     and I think you said Srebrenkovic?

16        A.   Srebrenikovic.

17        Q.   Srebrenikovic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Then page 9671, line 5 to 7.  Let me remind you, my question had

20     to do with that particular governmental session, and you said that among

21     others in attendance, there was also Professor Simovic who was there?

22        A.   Yes, he was deputy minster.

23        Q.   Yes, but we also see in the transcript that Mr. Simovic, who was

24     the deputy prime minister, was in charge of internal policy and that

25     later on he was the chief of police and the minister of justice; is this

Page 9736

 1     a mistake?

 2        A.   Well, it may have been a slip of the tongue.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. KORNER:  So, sorry, Your Honour, can I just ask, I am not

 5     clear.  What does he say was a mistake?  Or your question.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You heard the question.  Can you explain what was that slip of

 8     the tongue?

 9        A.   Dr. Simovic was never the minister of justice and chief of

10     police.  This is obviously a mistake.  However, it is in the transcript.

11     I don't think I said that though.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Madam Korner, does this suffice by

13     way of an explanation?  In today's transcript the page number is

14     incorrect.  I said 9653.  That is page 2, line 11 of today's transcript.

15     9653, line 4.

16        Q.   The next correction is on page 9681, line 25.  Mr. Mandic, it is

17     stated that members of the Special Police force who were Serbs were

18     transferred to Vrace.  In the transcript it also says that the Croats,

19     that is to say, the Croat Special Police, those of Croatian ethnic

20     background to Bjelave I think you said that the rest of the units, that

21     is to say, Croats and Muslims went to Bjelavu -- to Bjelava?

22        A.   To the police hall in the settlement called Bjelave which is a

23     settlement in Sarajevo.  It is close to the building where the seat of

24     the MUP is.

25        Q.   Bjelave.  The same mistake occurs on page 9690, line 23 and 9692,

Page 9737

 1     line 4.  In the transcript we have Bjelavar and instead it should be

 2     Bjelava?

 3        A.   No, Bjelave.

 4        Q.   And one more intervention, at page 9690, line 17 something

 5     remains unclear.  We discussed the meeting in Krtelji or, rather,

 6     meetings in Krtelji.  If I recall your testimony correctly, concerning

 7     the first meeting in Krtelji with the members of the special unit, you

 8     went there and it was arranged there that any orders coming their way

 9     must come from the tripartite body, that is to say, from the

10     representatives of all three ethnic communities; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12        Q.   Very well.  The second meeting at Krtelji attended by Mr. Vitomir

13     Zepinic on orders of the minister, you said that Jusuf Pusina was there

14     as well as and Bruno Stojic at that meeting at Krtelji where you were not

15     in attendance, that was the second meeting in early April, that was when

16     this Special Police Unit was divided?

17        A.   Yes, it was on the 4th of April, and I did not attend that

18     meeting.

19        Q.   Very well.  The last intervention in the transcript, page 9695,

20     line 17.  We discussed the barricades.  In line 17 it says that you were

21     able to deal with that problem quickly because all of the party leaders

22     were elsewhere outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina attending some meetings.

23     Instead it should say that this is precisely why you were unable to deal

24     with the problem; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9738

 1        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let's go back to the 4th of April and the resignation

 2     of Mr. Zepinic.  You said that he offered his resignation to

 3     Mr. Krajisnik in Krajisnik's office on the 4th of April, which is in the

 4     Presidency building of the socialist republic -- sorry, in the Assembly

 5     building?

 6        A.   Yes, it was in Krajisnik's office in the Assembly building of the

 7     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandic, we heard testimony here that that meeting was

 9     attended by Mr. Karadzic, Koljevic, Ms. Plavsic, Mr. Djeric, Koljevic [as

10     interpreted] and yourself as well as some others.  Do you recall

11     Mr. Karadzic being there?

12        A.   He definitely was not, and Koljevic wasn't there.  Ms. Plavsic

13     wasn't there.  I think Mr. Simovic was as well as Mr. Zepinic, myself,

14     Mico Stanisic, Mr. Krajisnik, but I don't recall any senior governmental

15     officials as far as I recall, that is.

16        Q.   Let me try to jog your memory then.  We heard evidence that Dr.

17     Koljevic was quite aggressive towards Mr. Zepinic?

18        A.   I truly don't recall that.

19        Q.   And you say he wasn't even there?

20        A.   Well, Koljevic is an elderly man, rather short.  I don't recall

21     Professor Koljevic being there at all.

22        Q.   You say that Mr. Karadzic was not there and that you are positive

23     of that?

24        A.   I don't recall him being there either.  I think that meeting was

25     chaired by Dr. Simovic and Mr. Krajisnik.  They hosted it.

Page 9739

 1        Q.   We heard evidence here that Mr. Karadzic said that it was easier

 2     to replace or remove Tito than it would be with Mr. Zepinic?

 3        A.   No, I don't think that is correct, whoever said that.  This is

 4     simply not true.

 5        Q.   Mr. Mandic, we also heard evidence that on that occasion several

 6     members of the special unit, Mr. Repija and Mr. Maric entered the office

 7     in full combat gear with hand-grenades, handguns, and knives?

 8        A.   No one was armed and those people did not come in at all.  It was

 9     a senior police meeting and the meeting with certain members of the

10     government at the Assembly speakers office.  What hand-grenades, please?

11     To get inside the Assembly building with hand-grenades, that's not true.

12        Q.   We also heard evidence that in front of the office or inside it,

13     there were some armed people in paramilitary uniforms?

14        A.   Paramilitary uniforms?  I don't understand.  What are

15     paramilitary uniforms?

16        Q.   Well, I suppose these were not official military or police

17     uniforms, but some rather specific uniforms?

18        A.   This is the first I hear of any paramilitary uniforms.  In that

19     building, the Assembly building, there was security at the entrance.  To

20     repeat, the meeting was only attended by Mr. Krajisnik, some

21     governmental -- some members of the government and senior police

22     personnel.  What other people?  What you are telling me is simply not

23     true.  There is a camouflage uniform and there's a regular police

24     uniform.  What is this notion of paramilitary uniform?  This seems to be

25     a brand new doctrine.

Page 9740

 1        Q.   The gist of it is whether you recall anyone on the 4th of April

 2     in the Assembly building in the office or in front of it was -- whether

 3     there was anyone who was armed?

 4        A.   In full responsibility I claim that there was no one with any

 5     weapons.  All weapons were supposed to be left at the entrance.  The same

 6     policy applies to all governmental and Presidency buildings.

 7        Q.   The last thing, Mr. Mandic.  Did you know a certain Zoran who is

 8     Mr. Zepinic's driver?

 9        A.   I don't recall him.  If he was his driver, I may have known him

10     but I can't recall him off the cuff.

11        Q.   We heard evidence here that you asked this Zoran, Zepinic's

12     driver, to liquidate Zepinic, that you ordered him to do this?

13        A.   When was this allegedly?

14        Q.   Then on the 4th of April.

15        A.   That's nonsense.  I'm becoming slightly irritated.  Me ordering a

16     driver to kill someone?

17        Q.   So your answer is no, certainly.  Just a few questions left,

18     Mr. Mandic.  Briefly tell me this, the Ministry of the Interior is part

19     of state administrations, state bodies, and it is organised as such?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And as all other parts it is organised in keeping with the Law on

22     State Administration?

23        A.   Yes, that law and the law on the ministries and the law on the

24     government.  In these specific segments, these three pieces of

25     legislation have to be completely harmonised.  The regulation is rather

Page 9741

 1     broad in legal terms concerning any state administration bodies.  It is

 2     quite voluminous as well.

 3        Q.   I'm being reminded to ask you of another thing concerning the

 4     meeting of the 4th of April.  Do you recall Mr. Stanisic threatening

 5     Mr. Zepinic that he would kill him at that meeting?

 6        A.   Well, let me explain something about that meeting.  I'm rather

 7     agitated by the questions this morning, and I don't think I understand

 8     them fully.  That meeting was called, that is to say, Mr. Krajisnik

 9     summoned Mr. Zepinic and us because the joint police Special Police Unit

10     was split up.  There were words exchanged and arguments between Zepinic

11     and Stanisic at that meeting.  It was only verbal.  No one wanted to kill

12     anyone.  It was rather unpleasant because Mr. Zepinic was faced with the

13     arguments of what he had done concerning him receiving bribes, and he

14     resigned.  He was offered to stay with certain services, but he signed

15     his resignation and left.  There was no fighting, arguing, guns, or

16     rifles.  Nothing of that.  These people were intellectuals.  Out of the

17     five or six of them, there were three people with PhDs there.  I don't

18     know who testified about this, but that's rubbish.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mandic.  It is not my goal to agitate you

20     whatsoever, but I do have to put these questions to you because this is

21     the evidence we heard.

22             Let us conclude then briefly and you can answer it with a yes or

23     a no.  You claim that at that meeting there were no serious threats

24     issued against Mr. Zepinic?

25        A.   There were definitely none.

Page 9742

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Mandic --

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic, before you move on to something

 3     else, could you briefly just take us through once again the positions at

 4     the meeting on the 4th of April between Zepinic and Stanisic in relation

 5     to the issue of splitting up the Special Police.  What was the argument,

 6     and who took which position in this matter?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, I can

 8     explain.  I was witness to that.  Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Zepinic did not

 9     discuss the division of the Special Police Unit.  Mr. Zepinic came to the

10     office of President Krajisnik from another meeting where he took place in

11     the disassociation of the special MUP unit of the Socialist Republic of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That meeting was held in Krtelji which is 2 to 3

13     kilometres from the Assembly and government building of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15             Zepinic took part in that meeting and he came directly to

16     Mr. Krajisnik's office who had summoned me, Simovic, and Stanisic before

17     that.  He called Simovic because he was deputy prime minister in charge

18     of internal policy of the joint government of the Socialist Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina who was also the boss to the minister of the interior

20     and of justice in that joint government.  Mr. Stanisic was there as the

21     newly-appointed minister of the Serb police.  And I was there because I

22     was person number one from among the Serbs in the joint MUP.

23             Veto Zepinic submitted his report on his participation in the

24     meeting where the special unit was divided.  That is when the argument

25     ensued.  All those in attendance were then informed of some of Zepinic's

Page 9743

 1     money, business premises, and vehicle.  Some words were exchanged, and

 2     then Zepinic in his own way resigned from the position of the deputy

 3     minister in the joint MUP.  And he left.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But I thought that the argument that took place

 5     in Mr. Krajisnik's office was an argument about the policies.  So what

 6     was the matter that was discussed?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The subject was the division of the

 8     special unit which had already taken place and Zepinic was reporting and

 9     informing us that he had done that together with Jusuf Pusina and Bruno

10     Stojic.  Also at that meeting facts were presented about Vito Zepinic,

11     the things I explained a few days ago and then this verbal conflict

12     ensued between Zepinic and Stanisic about that.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mandic, what I just want to clarify is

14     whether Mr. Zepinic and Mr. Stanisic were in agreement about the division

15     of the Special Police?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were.  Zepinic, in fact, just

17     informed us that he had already done it.  And nobody among those in

18     attendance had any argument with that.  Even I agreed, but the conflict

19     ensued when we started talking about Zepinic's -- I'm sorry, thank you.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  That's all I wanted to clarify.  Thanks.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue, Your Honours?

22        Q.   [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The other microphone please for Mr. --

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... Mandic, just a few more

Page 9744

 1     points on this subject.  I understood your evidence yesterday and the day

 2     before yesterday and also your evidence given to Ms. Korner as saying

 3     that Vitomir Zepinic, Jusuf Pusina, and Bruno Stojic had gone to Krtelji

 4     to a meeting to divide up the special unit on the orders of Alija

 5     Delimustafic then minister of the interior, the Socialist Republic of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  The minister had ordered that to prevent a conflict

 8     inside the special unit which consisted of people from different ethnic

 9     groups, and they were members of the special unit under arms.

10        Q.   We have to repeat this for the record.  Zepinic, Pusina, and

11     Stojic went to Krtelji to a meeting in order to divide the special unit

12     on the orders of minister Alija Delimustafic, minister of the interior of

13     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Your answer was yes?

14        A.   It was not a division.  Members of the Serb ethnicity of the

15     special unit went to the TEF facility, and the others were sent to

16     Bjelave to the police hall.  Delimustafic said let them split until the

17     politicians decide how it will be organised in the future and how the

18     future police force will be formed.

19        Q.   And after that meeting, Zepinic came to Krajisnik's office, and

20     all of you were invited, and that's when he reported that the meeting in

21     Krtelji had been finished, and that the members of the special unit were

22     divided?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And if I understood your answer to Judge Harhoff, Zepinic was

25     then confronted with evidence that was made public about his wrong-doings

Page 9745

 1     and then there was a quarrel between him and Stanisic about that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Just one more question, Mr. Mandic.  In your evidence

 4     in the examination-in-chief and when you were answering my questions as

 5     well, you said that Planja's house was primarily a military prison?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And that military prison, by the nature of things, was guarded by

 8     the army troops?

 9        A.   Yes, Lieutenant-Colonel Trivunovic was commander in that area.

10        Q.   And his units guarded the prison?

11        A.   Yes, he was the military commander there.

12        Q.   My very last question.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P400,

14     page 19 in B/C/S and page 23 in English.

15        Q.   You were talking yesterday about the clash between Mr. Stanisic

16     and Ms. Plavsic at the Assembly meeting of the 28th November 1992?

17        A.   This conflict between them had lasted for awhile and only

18     culminated in that Assembly meeting.

19        Q.   And you told us that your lawyer in Belgrade has a videotape of

20     that Assembly meeting?

21        A.   Mr. Milan Vujin has that videotape, and I believe Ms. Korner has

22     it on the transcript from that session that when Mr. Stanisic said

23     criminals have been allowed to come to Bosnia to wage war, she said --

24        Q.   That's what I want to read out to you, for you to confirm.  Let's

25     just find the English page.  It's in front of you, it's the last

Page 9746

 1     paragraph on this page where Ms. Plavsic speaks.  She says:

 2             "First I want say something that concerns me personally:  Mico

 3     Stanisic mentioned me, and to avoid confusion and meaningless talk,

 4     mostly about the crime that is destroying our country and our people,

 5     just to make sure that you don't believe it's that kind of story, I would

 6     like to say to minister Stanisic that it is not just a rumour but it is

 7     the truth that after hearing the statement of the president of the

 8     republic, his call to all volunteers from the Serbian and orthodox

 9     countries, I sent letters to all addresses.  Let me tell you, I tried to

10     gather, to rally together all those who wanted to fight for Serbdom, so

11     these letters were sent out.  You talk about these paramilitary units and

12     non-paramilitary units, but, excuse me, that is none of my concern.  I

13     was looking for men who wanted to fight for Serbdom, who want to fight on

14     the territory of Republika Srpska.  Those letters were sent also to the

15     Soviet Union and they were sent out to Seselj, Arkan, and Jovic.  Do

16     whatever you like, you can accuse me on that account, but I want to make

17     it clear that it is not a rumour.  I really did that, and you condemn me

18     if you will."

19        A.   That's precisely what I was talking about yesterday, Mr. Zecevic.

20     The conflict arose about that because these people, these weekend

21     warriors, were coming in and when there were no non-Serb houses

22     available, they looted Serb houses, and Mr. Stanisic expelled them.  One

23     of those units was the Yellow Wasps in the area of Zvornik and then these

24     people were released on -- thanks to the efforts of Biljana Plavsic.

25             So it was like fighting windmills.  It was not a conflict just

Page 9747

 1     between Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Stanisic, but also between me and

 2     Mr. Djeric.  We were trying to point out to this member of the Presidency

 3     that it simply can't be done, you can't let paramilitary units come in

 4     and do whatever they like.  And then Biljana Plavsic put a condition that

 5     she and Koljevic would stay in the Presidency if Stanisic and I stay in

 6     the government, and we were then expelled to Belgrade at the insistence

 7     of Mrs. Plavsic.  It's on the record of one of the Assembly sessions and

 8     finally it suited me.

 9        Q.   Let's just clear up one thing.  You will agree with me, won't

10     you, that the reason why you and Mr. Stanisic opposed these paramilitary

11     units was not that they had begun to attack Serbian houses as well.  It

12     was that you were in principle opposed to their conduct even when they

13     were attacking non-Serbs?

14        A.   There were hoards of criminals who were wreaking havoc.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I have finished.  Thank you,

16     witness.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

20        A.   Good morning, counsel.

21        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic.  We met about a month ago, if you

22     remember.  On behalf of the Zupljanin Defence, I'll ask you a number of

23     questions on a limited number of topics arising from the

24     examination-in-chief regarding my client.

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation] Can we call up P738.  It's the

Page 9748

 1     record from that Assembly meeting where deputy Andjelko Grahovac

 2     mentioned my client.  It's page 52 in Serbian in e-court and page 53 in

 3     English.  Let's just wait for the page.

 4        Q.   Look at the last sentence.  I will read what Mr. Grahovac said

 5     verbatim.  Let's just wait for the English.  There it is.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic -- yes.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   "I know that in the department of Mr. Zupljanin, stolen cars from

10     Banja have been registered.  I have to say that and I have information.

11     A white Suzuki with licence plates 132 490 registered by the chief in

12     Banja Luka, former cadres took part in that, communists amongst whom

13     Stojan Zupljanin.  I was accused of some abuse and things like that."

14             Now, Mr. Mandic, as a professional policeman, a man who was part

15     of those agencies were faced with accusations that you were part of the

16     former communist system when you were trying to do your job and act

17     against people like this Grahovac man.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And there is something behind this attack against you.  I'll show

20     you later a document that served as a reason for this attack on

21     Zupljanin, but registration of vehicles is not done by the police -- by

22     the centre?

23        A.   Stojan Zupljanin was head of the centre supervising 32 units

24     which dealt with the registration of vehicles.

25        Q.   So this claim that vehicles were registered at the office of the

Page 9749

 1     chief, that was not true?

 2        A.   That's not true.

 3        Q.   I have prepared a set of documents I want to show you, and I have

 4     them in hard copy for you.  The background of the charges against my

 5     client will be clearer from these documents.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we call document 2D030402.

 7     It's your tab 5.

 8        Q.   It's a decision from 1991.  Let's just wait for it to be

 9     displayed.  Mr. Mandic, do you remember an action in 1991 when Veljko

10     Milankovic and his paramilitary unit, the Wolves from Vucjak were

11     arrested?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This is a decision to remand him in custody signed by

14     Stojan Zupljanin.  And this decision says that this man, Veljko

15     Milankovic was remanded in custody, and these are only some charges

16     against him, including forgery of documents, the registration papers for

17     the vehicles, et cetera?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   He was actually forging registration papers for vehicles, that

20     was the accusation levelled against Zupljanin, right, by Grahovac?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You know that this Milankovic was arrested?

23        A.   Yes, and then some MPs raised an outcry that Zupljanin was

24     arresting Serbian volunteers and Serbian warrior, but finally all of us

25     came from the former communist system.  None of us originated in a

Page 9750

 1     democracy or capitalist ...

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document

 3     please be admitted into evidence and given an exhibit number.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 2D73, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The next document is tab 6.

 7             Can I please call up Exhibit 2D040154.

 8        Q.   This is an intercept of a conversation between Radovan Karadzic

 9     and Andjelko Grahovac.  If you look at page 2.

10             Page 2 of this document, you can see that Grahovac was

11     intervening with Karadzic to have these men released.  The first decision

12     was dated the 15th and then immediately on the 17th Grahovac said that

13     these men with whom ammunition was found and Karadzic asking what does

14     Stojan think about this, referring to Stojan Zupljanin, and Grahovac

15     replies that those were criminals and crooks because he had received from

16     chief Savic in Prnjavor this kind of information.  And then it goes on

17     like this.  He -- Grahovac is intervening with [indiscernible] to have

18     these men released.  And if we look at page 3, Karadzic is asking him who

19     had arrested them, and he responded that it was done by the police.

20     There was some exchange of fire.  Karadzic asked whether it was military

21     police and the answer was no, regular police.  Then Karadzic says upon

22     whose orders, and the response is either on Zupljanin's order or this

23     Savic from Prnjavor.  So basically the whole point of this conversation

24     is that Grahovac is asking Karadzic to intervene to have these men

25     released?

Page 9751

 1        A.   I was familiar with this event.  Stojan Zupljanin consulted me

 2     about this, and I supported his idea that all those men who were involved

 3     in vehicle thefts be incarcerated and handed over to an investigating

 4     judge.  And that is when Grahovac called Mr. Karadzic and asked for this

 5     intervention.

 6        Q.   But it didn't stop there.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the next

 8     document, that's 2D07112.  That is a tab number 7.

 9             Unfortunately, Your Honours, since Ms. Korner raised this issue

10     later in the day, we are still waiting for translation.  It's a short

11     document.  It's a telegram, and the witness can read it in its entirety

12     pending the translation thereof.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, you are speeding up again.  Remember

14     the interpretation.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Could the counsel please repeat the number.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] 2D071112.  111 -- 2D07 -- yes, it's

17     all right.  If we can enlarge this document.

18        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this is a cable dated 28th November, 1991.  I'm going

19     to read it out to you.  It is addressed to the command of the Banja Luka

20     corps, attention of General Uzelac, and it was sent by Andjelko Grahovac,

21     right?

22        A.   Yes, but I'm not familiar with this.

23        Q.   What I'm interested in is for you to read it.

24        A.   I have read it.

25        Q.   I want to know what he is demanding here and what threats he is

Page 9752

 1     make.  He says here:

 2             "I demand that you urgently intervene along with Stojan Zupljanin

 3     to have Veljko Milankovic released because you have no grounds for

 4     further prosecution.  I also demand that the military police return the

 5     seised camouflage winter uniforms confiscated from the fighters, 80

 6     pieces.  I also demand that Lieutenant Ratic returns 20.000 dinars, 2.000

 7     German marks, and 2.000 Swiss francs that were confiscated from

 8     Milankovic without any receipt.  Unless you do that promptly, I shall do

 9     everything I can for these and other things to be published on television

10     and in the press."  Signed by Andjelko Grahovac.

11             So basically he is making threats, and he has demanded these

12     things having failed to intervene with Karadzic and Zupljanin.  He is

13     sending this telegram to the army and he threatens to publicise the whole

14     affair and that he was going to do everything in order to effect the

15     release of this person.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, I have to show you another document in order to

18     wrap up this topic.  It's Exhibit -- just a second.  2D41, tab 8 in your

19     binder.  It's a report on criminal and other illegal activities of Veljko

20     Milankovic and other members of the paramilitary formation from Prnjavor.

21     It was compiled by the Security Services Centre of Banja Luka.

22             Now, Mr. Mandic, you said that you were familiar with this

23     affair.  This is not only to do about vehicle theft.  You can see, and

24     I'm sure that you are familiar, is that there was a series of crimes

25     committed by these groups.  They intimidated people from other ethnic

Page 9753

 1     communities, they stopped vehicles and behaved in a very arrogant manner

 2     and which all effected the security situation in the entire region.  You

 3     are familiar with the activities of this group?

 4        A.   Yes.  Actually, they behaved violently in the region or district

 5     of Banja Luka.  This group had come from the Croatian front and started

 6     behaving violently, especially against non-Serbian population.

 7        Q.   If you look at page 4 where it says in the second passage that

 8     months of illegal activity of this group from Prnjavor caused anxiety and

 9     fear and is causing problems among members of the police due to numerous

10     provocations and attacks on policemen.  And their activities also

11     contributed to deteriorating of inter-ethnic tensions.  And basically

12     this is a correct assessment of chief Zupljanin?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   If you look at the last page which is page 8.  I'm going to read

15     the last paragraph above the signature of Stojan Zupljanin.  That's on

16     page 8:

17             "The legal measures taken against Veljko Milankovic and other

18     members of the paramilitary formation from Prnjavor were very

19     tendentiously portrayed and highly politicised in certain media with the

20     obvious and well thought through intentions of raising suspicion and

21     doubt among the members of the public, particularly among the Serbs, with

22     regard to the legality of measures taken and eventually ending in threats

23     to senior officers.  The facts themselves presented by themselves refute

24     any such attempt to discredit the services security organs and their

25     personnel and show that this was not a staged arrest or a show-down with

Page 9754

 1     Serbian volunteers."

 2        A.   As I said, I'm familiar with this affair and this report was sent

 3     to me towards the end of 1991 by I think Stojan Zupljanin or his chief of

 4     the CID.

 5        Q.   It was precisely Grahovac who threatened to go to the media and

 6     smear the people who were involved in these actions?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandic, in conclusion, it is obvious what was the agenda that

 9     Grahovac had for the attacks against Zupljanin because he accused him of

10     some problems that he was involved in?

11        A.   Well, he was a communist.  The man was just doing his job.  I

12     received this report when I was the head of the administration for crime

13     prevention, and as chief of the CID enjoyed my support because he carried

14     out these operative actions.  I don't know who he was among those chiefs.

15     I think it was Jahic or a Muslim.  I cannot remember exactly.

16        Q.   Mr. Mandic, since I have finished with this subject, just one

17     more question.  In your testimony, you mentioned that when you elected

18     the judges the Muslim judges with a view to -- in view of the opposition

19     in the Assembly, Mr. Karadzic tried to circumvent the Assembly, and he

20     used his constitutional powers and pursuant to his decision as president

21     of the Presidency elected and imported certain judges?

22        A.   Yes, pursuant to Article 83 of the constitution of B&H, during

23     the state of imminent threat of war had powers to decide on certain

24     issues instead of the Assembly.  He exercised this right and on many

25     occasions we appointed people to the post of prosecutors, judges,

Page 9755

 1     magistrate, people in the administration of judiciary, according to the

 2     ethnic composition of a given region.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the counsel and the

 4     witness please slow down.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, the interpreters remind you once

 6     again to slow down.  Thanks.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Exhibit 2D021664.  The English

 8     version has Exhibit number 2D021668.  I suppose that's due to the fact

 9     that the translation was belated.  Tab number 3.

10        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this is one such decision taken by President

11     Karadzic, and it refers to the courts in Banja Luka.  If you look at page

12     2, you can see that there are judges that you mentioned.  Roman numeral

13     XII, XIII, XIV, all these were Muslims?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Number XVI is Stanislav Jakl, I think he was a Slovene?

16        A.   Yes, I think he was.

17        Q.   Then you have number XX Medic, Adem, he was a Muslim?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Then Ruzica Topic, a Croat.  Then on the last page there's

20     Zinaida Kadic - please turn the page - she was a Muslim?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So this basically confirms what you had been saying all the time

23     that you were trying, actually, the president was trying to circumvent

24     the Assembly due to this composition?

25        A.   Let me just explain.  That took place in certain Assemblies,

Page 9756

 1     however, in some of the Assemblies we managed to impose our proposals

 2     reflecting the composition of all ethnicities, so it wasn't always that

 3     Dr. Karadzic used his powers in that sense.  Some Assemblies did vote for

 4     the proposals of the minister of justice and regional prosecutor's

 5     offices and competent institutions that nominated people to be appointed

 6     to the Prosecutor offices and judiciary.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mandic, concerning the election of judges in mid-May, you

 8     became the minister of justice and when you took up this position, you

 9     found a rather messy situation.  Some courts were not functioning at all,

10     and in some towns that were in the war zone, there were no judges at all?

11        A.   There were no courts at all and that applied to a large number of

12     places because the war broke out in a large area, particularly in Eastern

13     Herzegovina --

14             THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:  Bosnia.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And these institutions didn't exist

16     at all.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   And in some of the municipalities in Krajina such as Skender

19     Vakuf and Teslic, Kljuc, and some other towns where there was fierce

20     fighting at the time when you took over your duties, there were no judges

21     at all, they had all virtually left?

22        A.   Yes, you're right.

23        Q.   And the system needed time to be set up?

24        A.   I've already answered that to Mr. Zecevic.  I think it sufficed.

25     I told him how we worked and how we went about it.

Page 9757

 1        Q.   And in a way this also impacted the work of the police.  Even

 2     when the police arrested someone, there was no one there to hand that

 3     person over to to detain that person and to have any proceedings

 4     instituted, in particular in some of the municipalities; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And then there was an additional problem, as you said, which was

 7     that 95 per cent of crimes were committed by military conscripts and

 8     uniformed personnel in the Republika Srpska.  The problem was how to

 9     prosecute them?

10        A.   In the state of an imminent threat of war, all people between 16

11     and 65 were military conscripts, and they fell under the remit of the

12     military judiciary.

13        Q.   What about the civilian Prosecutor's Offices and judiciary, they

14     held no sway over them, they could not prosecute them, perhaps if among

15     the perpetrators there were civilians, perhaps that link could be made

16     and then arrest a whole group?

17        A.   Well, yes, but they could only do an on-site investigation and

18     then transfer the case to the military Prosecutor in question.  It was

19     all regulated by law.

20        Q.   I wanted to show you a document which will confirm what you say,

21     which is tab 9.  It is Exhibit 1D198.  Your tab 9.

22             Mr. Mandic, this is an operational work-plan created by the

23     Security Services Centre in Banja Luka in May 1992.  As an experienced

24     policeman, you know that whenever there is a complex event involving a

25     number of perpetrators of a crime, there needs to be a plan in order to

Page 9758

 1     detain the number of people concerned?

 2        A.   Well, such an operative plan can be drafted in cases of simple

 3     crimes up to terrorist attacks.

 4        Q.   Well, there was a crime committed by these members of the SOS and

 5     Eagles as well as the Berets and TO members.  There was any number of

 6     units with different names there.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC:  [Interpretation] Let's look at the last page which

 8     is page 5.  In the attachments we have some other events in question, but

 9     I would like to see page 5 in the Serbian for now.  In e-court, I think

10     it's page 6.  The previous page, please.

11        Q.   Look at the last paragraph.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the English

13     reference be provided.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 6 in the English.

15        Q.   The last paragraph, Mr. Mandic.  It says:

16             "As long as the Military Prosecution Office and the military

17     court are in the process of being established, a plan cannot be

18     implemented because most of the offenders are conscripts and members of

19     the former TO, which is why civilian courts and prosecutors refuse to

20     conduct these proceedings."

21             In essence, this is what you have been saying.  This confirms

22     what you said about the situation on the ground.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I just wanted to tell you that this plan indeed was implemented

25     later on and people arrested but that's already a different topic.

Page 9759

 1             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I mean, it's really the

 2     objection yesterday to Mr. Krgovic.  It's counsel giving evidence.  I

 3     mean, occasionally the witness is asked to agree with what counsel say in

 4     evidence, but it is still counsel giving evidence.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 6     questions of this witness.  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, Mr. Krgovic showed an intercept, 2D04

 9     dot, slash, whatever, 0160.  Now he is clearly relying on it for the

10     truth of the contents.  He is relying on it as an accurate record.  He

11     hasn't applied to make it an exhibit presumably because the Defence are

12     objecting to Your Honour's ruling on intercepts, but in our view, this

13     should be admitted as an exhibit.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Where it was referred to in evidence, I thought that

15     there would have been a question of it being -- whether it should be

16     exhibited, and the questions I was going to ask is whether it had been

17     earlier exhibited because, of course, I confess, that the list of

18     intercepts I wouldn't --

19             MS. KORNER:  I agree.  I asked the same question of Mr. Smith,

20     and I'm told no, it's not one of the ones that we put in because it

21     didn't directly impact on the face of it on this case.  Now it does, and

22     it clearly should be an exhibit, otherwise, as I say, Mr. Krgovic is

23     relying on it for its accuracy and the truth of its contents.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Let me revert to Mr. Krgovic on this point, first of

25     all.  Mr. Krgovic, you --

Page 9760

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are familiar with

 2     our position when the intercepts are concerned.  It is our belief that

 3     for the most part such intercepts are taken out of the context,

 4     especially in the context of what Mr. Mandic was saying, and they do not

 5     meet the threshold to be admitted.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Before you answer, could I ask the question I was

 7     about to ask, which is that you showed it to the witness, notwithstanding

 8     the basic position which we all remember the Defence takes about these

 9     intercepts.  Here is a situation where you actually showed it to the

10     witness and invited a comment on it.  What was the -- what is your

11     position as to how the Chamber should, therefore, treat this particular

12     intercept which you are still insisting should not be admitted having

13     yourself opened the issue on the particular intercept with the witness?

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I showed two documents

15     to the witness, and I did not seek to tender them.  The first one was the

16     cable sent by Mr. Grahovac and the second was the intercept.  I just

17     wanted the witness to be reminded of that event to provide some context

18     to Mr. Grahovac's address in the Assembly.  This is what I was striving

19     to do.  I didn't ask for either of the documents to be admitted.  I just

20     wanted to show them to the witness to see whether he can recollect the

21     event which caused Mr. Grahovac's intervention in the Assembly.  I didn't

22     ask the witness to confirm the context or the participants in the

23     intercept.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, I think we understand your position.  Of

25     course, you anticipate, Mr. Krgovic, that when Ms. Korner re-examines, no

Page 9761

 1     doubt she could return to this.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I don't think I need to return to this

 3     at all.  It's a specious argument that Mr. Krgovic is attempting to put

 4     forward.  It's rather like newspaper articles.  When it suits the Defence

 5     they are perfectly prepared to use it despite their so-called objections

 6     to the authenticity, and the like, of these intercepts.  Mr. Krgovic has

 7     used this intercept as evidence of the truth of what was being said and

 8     the accuracy.  He cannot, therefore, escape, one, the -- as I say, the

 9     specious argument that intercepts should all be excluded and then use

10     them; and second, if that is the purpose for which it is being used and

11     it is accepted then the document should become an exhibit.  It clearly

12     relates --

13             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, it appears to me that you are

14     unnecessarily complicating this because the simple solution would be for

15     you to apply in the course of re-examination.

16             MS. KORNER:  I mean, I didn't even have to apply in

17     re-examination.  I say that it should have been ask for by the Defence,

18     they cannot avoid it, and it should be made an exhibit.

19             JUDGE HALL:  As Mr. Krgovic as articulated his position, no doubt

20     he feels the need to be consistent with his general position which is

21     perfectly understandable.

22             MS. KORNER:  But it's not being consistent, Your Honour, that's

23     the point.  He may try and say that, but it's being inconsistent, and

24     it's no different from any other document that had it been any other

25     document we would have been asked to make this an exhibit because he says

Page 9762

 1     it undermines the allegation that was made by Mr. Grahovac against Mr.

 2     Zupljanin in the Assembly, and we say it's an important exhibit as well.

 3     I mean, it may not have been one we particularly chose to put in, but it

 4     should go in.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Is that your application because in as much as the

 6     Defence hasn't sought to do so, I don't know that the Chamber can presume

 7     to make it an exhibit particularly having regard to the reasons, which,

 8     and again I use the word consistency, that the Defence has advanced.

 9             MS. KORNER:  But, Your Honour, this is the real problem.  If the

10     Defence position as maintained in their appeal or application for leave

11     to appeal against Your Honour's decision on intercepts is that these

12     intercepts are all in some way corrupted, inaccurate, or as was put to

13     Mr. Mandic, that somebody in some case in BiH in the state court in

14     Bosnia gave evidence that Mr. Munir Alibabic was in the habit of

15     corrupting these tapes in some way, then they cannot use them.  Once they

16     are departed from that, then they are stuck with the consequences.

17             JUDGE HALL:  We agree with everything you've said, Ms. Korner,

18     but unless I'm missing something, why don't you simply make the

19     application.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm quite happy.  I ask in the light

21     of the Defence's, as I say, somewhat inconsistent position, that this

22     intercept be made an exhibit.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And I don't know that I need to call on the Defence

24     again in response to your application.  The document is admitted and

25     marked.

Page 9763

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1336, Your Honours.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I would like just that our objection be recorded,

 3     Your Honours.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So noted, Mr. Zecevic.  And this is a convenient

 5     point to take the break.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is being escorted back to the

 9     stand, the Registry has informed the Chamber of an error in the written

10     reasons issued on the 26th of March for the oral decision of the 1st of

11     March whereby the Chamber admitted into evidence intercept evidence

12     through witness ST-108.  The reasons erroneously state that Exhibit P719

13     in the Martic cause was tendered by the Prosecution in the present case,

14     and that this Martic exhibit was admitted into evidence.  However, this

15     piece of evidence was not tendered by the Prosecution, and is, therefore,

16     not admitted into evidence in this present case.  In other words,

17     Registry need not seek to assign a number to that particular exhibit.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner, you may continue.

20             MS. KORNER:  I hope you'll forgive, me, this is slightly jerky

21     because --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MS. KORNER:  It's on.  I said, I hope you'll forgive me, but I'm

24     going in between a number of different volumes so there may be a slight

25     pause while I do that.

Page 9764

 1                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner.

 2        Q.   Mr. Mandic, the first matter I want to ask you about was

 3     something that was put to you by Mr. Zecevic on Wednesday the 5th, which

 4     the transcript number is, I don't know.  Anyhow, he was putting to you

 5     that you were unable to speak in parliamentary debates because you were a

 6     member of the government.  Do you remember, and you agreed with that?

 7        A.   I don't know what we were discussing.  If there was something

 8     concerning the Ministry of Justice, something that concerned me, I was

 9     able to.  As for parliamentary debates in general, I couldn't

10     participate.  What was it about specifically?

11        Q.   Wait a minute.  First of all, why do you say that you couldn't

12     participate in parliamentary debates?  What was it that you said

13     prevented you under the legislation?

14        A.   I didn't say I was unable to participate.  As far as Assembly

15     debates are concerned on topics that do not concern the government or the

16     Ministry of Justice, I did not participate.  But when there were topics

17     regarding justice and government work on the agenda, then I participated

18     and even proposed topics.

19        Q.   Yes.  Sorry, Mr. Mandic.  It was put to you, and I'm really

20     sorry, I marked down the original number from -- on the LiveNote of that

21     day, and I'm still trying to find it.  It's some -- yes.  It came up

22     because you were being asked -- this is, sorry -- it starts at page 9586

23     and continues over to 9587.  Mr. Zecevic put to you:

24             "The Assembly has its own rules including discipline measures,

25     and these rules are written in the Rules of Procedure of the Assembly and

Page 9765

 1     various other regulatory provisions applying to the Assembly?

 2             "Yes.

 3             "You participated in those Assembly sessions as a member of the

 4     cabinet?"

 5             And you said "yes."

 6             And then it arose from a question I asked you:

 7             "Mr. Mandic, the Prosecution asked you why you had failed to

 8     react when you did not agree with the arguments of various MPs.  Isn't it

 9     a fact that you, as a member of the government, were unable to speak at

10     Assembly sessions even if you wished to unless a question is directed to

11     you by MPs concerning items on the agenda that concern your ministry?

12     Isn't it a fact that you were unable to take part in parliamentary

13     debates?"

14             And you said:

15             "When the issue of the election of these judiciary officials was

16     discussed, it is a fact that I had no right to speak.  Thank you, and

17     this particular limitation applies to all members of the government and

18     ministers, doesn't it?"

19             Answer:  "Yes, it does."

20             Now, I don't want to have to show you all the provisions that

21     relate to the conduct of the Assembly and who could speak, but are you

22     saying, Mr. Mandic, that there is a provision that prevented you on

23     taking part in discussions in the Assembly on matters other than those

24     that affected your ministry?

25        A.   I think there is a rule that members of the executive authority

Page 9766

 1     may only participate in discussion of matters concerning their area of

 2     work or matters within their purview and the purview of their ministry,

 3     and that's my conviction to date.

 4        Q.   All right.  Are you able to -- I can put up the rules for you

 5     right now, Mr. Mandic, but are you able to -- from your own recollection

 6     as a long-standing minister, able to tell us under what provision you say

 7     you were prohibited?

 8        Q.   Ms. Korner, I did not serve very long as minister, only eight

 9     months, and I attended only two or three Assembly sessions when there was

10     discussion of staffing policy in the Ministry of Justice, so I did not

11     read the Rules of Procedure of the Assembly and statutory decisions.  I

12     wasn't interested.  It was not within my field of work.  I was not a

13     member of parliament or a person participating in the work of the

14     Assembly in another capacity.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, rather than -- because this is

16     something that can be seen itself.  Rather than going through a rather

17     tedious exercise, the regulations governing the conduct of the Assembly

18     are set out in the constitutional law for the implementation of the

19     constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina printed in

20     the "Official Gazette" of the Serbian people for Monday the 16th of

21     March.  And the relevant provisions one can find in Articles -- it's

22     headed -- it's part 5, "Sessions of the Assembly."

23        Q.   Mr. Mandic, it couldn't be that you didn't intervene because you

24     didn't want to intervene as opposed to not being allowed to intervening?

25        A.   I think I didn't have the right to intervene.  I think it was out

Page 9767

 1     of place for me to speak and to start to debate with members of

 2     parliament.  They elect me, not the other way around.  I was not a member

 3     of the Assembly.

 4        Q.   Are you aware of other members of the government speaking when

 5     the topics were not ones that particularly concerned their ministries?

 6        A.   Most of the time in the government where the prime minister was

 7     Mr. Djeric, he was the one who represented and spoke for the government,

 8     but if a topic on the agenda concerned a particular ministry, then that

 9     member of the government would take the floor.  And that was the general

10     rule, people would take the floor as members of the executive authority

11     of the government when something concerned their line of work.  In my

12     case, that was preparation of amendments concerning the Ministry of

13     Justice proposing drafts, topics that related to the ministry, but that

14     was always along our professional line of work.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's put it this way:  Supposing we looked at

16     Mr. Prstojevic's various remarks, and that is how this all arose, and

17     effectively what he was talking about was the unlawful expulsion of

18     non-Serbs.  Do you remember we -- I don't want to go back over it, but we

19     looked at that speech by him?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And is that something that the minister of the interior should

22     have intervened on?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Right.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm sorry, I should have added, it

Page 9768

 1     will be part of the law library, so I don't think I need to ...

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I'm not

 3     disputing the quotation given by Ms. Korner from the document, but I

 4     believe the gist of the document, which is called the Rules of Procedure

 5     of the Assembly, is that it governs the work of the Assembly, and it's

 6     also part of the law library.

 7             MS. KORNER:  I agree, Your Honour.  Yes, I agree.  As I say, I

 8     don't want to go through a lot of the sections because it will take a

 9     long time.

10        Q.   Next, Mr. Mandic --

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner.

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I just want to be sure that we got the witness's

14     answer correctly in response to your question of whether the minister of

15     interior should have intervened on the issue of the unlawful expulsion of

16     non-Serbs.

17             MS. KORNER:  He said, I don't know.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because -- well, yes, but I guess the issue is if

19     he could have.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And what would the witness's -- Mr. Mandic,

22     regardless of the fact of whether Mr. Stanisic should have intervened,

23     the issue is could he have intervened in the Assembly when the discussion

24     was held on the expulsion of non-Serbs?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not sure whether

Page 9769

 1     the minister of defence or the minister of police should have taken the

 2     floor, whether it should have been an MP or the president of the

 3     municipality or a member of the Presidency who was in charge of that

 4     topic of that area of work.  I am not sure who should have responded.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Are you unable to tell us under whose authority

 6     this issue fell?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, that would have been

 8     an issue for the army, the Ministry of Defence, but you'll have to allow

 9     that I wasn't really knowledgeable about these things.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

11             MS. KORNER:

12        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Mandic, just to pick up on that, who could be more

13     knowledgeable?  You were an ex-member of the MUP having been a member of

14     the MUP for many years, you were at the time the minister of justice,

15     surely you are able to assist His Honour with who was responsible for

16     dealing with this.

17        A.   As regards Mr. Prstojevic and Ilidza municipality, the military

18     commander in that area and chief of police, Tomo Kovac, were the most

19     qualified, and when I was talking to him, I gave him certain instructions

20     at the very beginning of the war.  I don't know about later.

21        Q.   Mr. Kovac reported directly to Mr. Stanisic, didn't he?

22        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   And Mr. Kovac later became, in fact, minister of the interior?

24        A.   Not awhile later but a long time afterwards, three or -- two or

25     three years later.

Page 9770

 1        Q.   All right.  So can we move then to another matter that you were

 2     asked about, and that's this question of information and communication.

 3     At page 9589 it was put to you by Mr. Zecevic:

 4             "It's also a fact, isn't it, Mr. Mandic, that for a certain

 5     period of time until the corridor was opened, neither the government nor

 6     the ministries had almost no information about what was happening in

 7     north-west Bosnia, which is the territory of the Krajina, as well as

 8     central Bosnia, that is to say, Doboj, Brcko, and Samac; is that

 9     correct?"

10             And you said:  "Yes, I explained that all telecommunications and

11     road communications were severed."

12             And then I'll come on to the next bit in a moment.

13             Now can we just examine that a little more closely, if we may.

14     The MUP published, did it not, for the purposes of the government and the

15     Presidency daily bulletins on what was happening?

16        A.   At what time, Ms. Korner?

17        Q.   Effectively almost from the moment that the MUP was set up,

18     beginning of April, end of March, beginning of April?

19        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't working in the MUP.

20        Q.   I know you weren't, but this is -- just let me finish,

21     Mr. Mandic.  In fact, you were working in the MUP until the 19th of May?

22        A.   No, I worked until the 24th of April until that session at Pale

23     when the so-called Security Council informed me that I would be taking

24     over the Ministry of Justice.  From the 10th of April until the 24th.

25     After that I started preparations for the establishment of the ministry

Page 9771

 1     and waited for my appointment.

 2             MS. KORNER:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have documentation on that

 4     session of that 24th of April when the decision was made that I would be

 5     minister of justice because Nikolic, the minister, failed to show up for

 6     work.  And that's when I was informed.  I attended that meeting, and from

 7     that moment on I started preparations for the establishment of the

 8     Ministry of Justice.  The day was the 24th of April.  I was exactly 14

 9     days in the Serbian police.  On the 8th, I was relieved of my duty, on

10     the 10th I arrive at Vrace, and between the 10th until the 24th of April,

11     I was deputy chief of the Serb -- deputy minister of police.

12             MS. KORNER:

13        Q.   By and large, the MUP of the Serbian republic carried on the

14     traditions, the procedures of the old MUP of BiH; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   All right.  Can I just show you some documents please for a

17     moment, Mr. Mandic.  I'm going to go back as you say you weren't there

18     after the 24th, unfortunately I've started on the 25th, but we'll check.

19             MS. KORNER:  Can we have a look, please at 65 ter 939, please.

20        Q.   The Serbian republic, minister of the interior, 25th of April,

21     and it's number 6, so I hope we can assume there were five before it.  We

22     are checking to see whether we've got them.  Daily report of the MUP.

23     Can you look, please -- well, I mean, let's just go through the areas

24     that it reports on very quickly.  First of all, it talks about what is

25     happening in Gacko.  Then paragraph 2.

Page 9772

 1        A.   Gacko.

 2        Q.   Gacko, thank you.  Paragraph 2, talks about what is happening in

 3     Prijedor, minute information about robbery.  And Prijedor, of course, is

 4     in the Krajina.  Sorry, perhaps you better confirm that.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Can we go over the page in English, it's still the

 7     same page in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Two army reservists open fire in front of the Tartuf restaurant

 9     in Novi.  That's also in the Krajina; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Then a long report from Banja Luka.  Also in the Krajina?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. KORNER:  I think we need to go to the next page in Serbian.

14     Can we go to the next page in English.  That's Tuzla at the bottom.

15     Sorry, can we go to the next page in English again.  Sorry, can we go

16     back one.  Yes.

17        Q.   We see reports from Bratunac, Brcko.  The entire population of

18     Brcko has left the town.  Allegedly there's an agreement to divide the

19     town.  SJB Brcko remains undivided as yet, and Lukavac, whatever, and

20     then the last page we'll see essentially goes out under Mico Stanisic's

21     signature.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm hopefully -- and we can pull them

23     up if necessary -- we've got all of these bulletins which start on the

24     19th of April, number 1.

25        Q.   So even before you left the MUP, Mr. Mandic, these reports were

Page 9773

 1     being put out.  Are you saying you were unaware of them?

 2        A.   I was not aware of them.  For 14 days, I was at the school at

 3     Vrace in Sarajevo while the seat of the MUP was in Pale, a neighbourhood,

 4     I can't even recall its name.  And those 14 days, I stood in for

 5     Mr. Stanisic in the area of Sarajevo, I was there at the school in Vrace

 6     and I never saw these dispatches.  Whether the dispatch communication was

 7     through the telecommunications of the former JNA army, I don't know, and

 8     I cannot answer that question.

 9             As for the fact that telephones and communications were not

10     working, that is true.  These are dispatches.

11        Q.   Yes, but you can only send dispatch -- sorry, Mr. Mandic, I'm

12     going to go on with this, but the point that you were trying to make or

13     you leapt to agree with Mr. Zecevic, is that you weren't getting any

14     communications at all until the corridor was opened, that neither the

15     government nor the ministries, it was put to you, had information

16     north-west Bosnia, which is the territory of the Krajina and central

17     Bosnia, Doboj, Brcko, and Samac, and I'm merely trying to show you that

18     possibly your memory is playing you tricks, if I can put it that way.

19             MS. KORNER:  All right.  Can we quickly have a look, please, at

20     the next one, P1254.

21             30th of April.  And the information there -- and Samac was one of

22     the particular municipalities you mentioned.  According to reports in

23     paragraph 2, received from the public security station of the Serbian

24     Bosanski Samac, the town is now free and the situation is gradually

25     becoming normal.  Members of the Croatian paramilitary have been

Page 9774

 1     disarmed, some of them surrendered their weapons voluntarily.  There are

 2     quite a few relatives of Alija Izetbegovic in the prison and some

 3     information about Mr. Delimustafic trying to negotiate the exchange.  And

 4     I think that's all we need to know about that.  And again, it's signed on

 5     behalf of Mr. Stanisic apparently.

 6             Can we go, please, to 65 ter 960.  This is described as daily

 7     incident bulletin number 106.  If we look at the second -- can we go to

 8     the bottom.  We need to go to the next page to look at the date.  It's

 9     the 22nd of May.  If we go back to the first page, starts with, Sarajevo

10     CSB, then Ilidza, and then in the area of Banja Luka CSB in Kljuc, two

11     people were arrested.  Then it goes on to other security incidents

12     dealing with Prijedor, murders, and then over the page in English,

13     please.  Again Bosanski Novi, Banja Luka, Celinac, Gradiska, and then

14     Bijeljina.  And certainly at this stage there is Doboj and Trebinje

15     security service centres did not submit daily incident bulletins.

16             Can we look, please, at the 25th of -- sorry, P1266.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I would just like to note that Ms. Korner is again

18     now she is giving evidence, and she is not posing a question to the

19     witness.

20             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I'm doing an exercise, which

21     at the end I'm going to ask the witness whether he stands by his answer.

22     That's all.  So I'm going to have to take him through the documentation.

23     But that will be the question.

24             Can we -- yes.  This is -- again we need to look, please, at the

25     last page in English and the second page in B/C/S.  Not a very good copy

Page 9775

 1     but it looks like it's the 25th of May.

 2        Q.   Now, by that stage, you are clearly a member of the government,

 3     Mr. Mandic; is that right?  As minister of justice?

 4        A.   What time-frame are we talking about, Ms. Korner?

 5        Q.   25th of May.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   And if you look, this report actually says that it's submitted to

 8     the government, the Pale staff, the office of the minister, the minister,

 9     and three under-secretaries, and it comes from the analysis and

10     information service of the MUP; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And while we are on that page, we can see that Bijeljina, Doboj,

13     and Trebinje CSBs did not file their reports on security-related issues,

14     and the telephone and other lines within Sarajevo and between Doboj and

15     Trebinje have been down for a long period.  So certainly there were

16     problems with communications, but ...

17             MS. KORNER:  Can we look then, please, at the first page in B/C/S

18     and the second page in English.

19        Q.   There's a long report from Banja Luka CSB, and, in fact, it gives

20     this report about what was happening at the Mejdan police station.  Was

21     that an incident you were aware of, the SOS so-called Serbian defence

22     forces attacking the Mejdan police station?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Okay.  And then we see at the bottom of the English page, the

25     explosions set off in Sanski Most by unidentified individuals caused

Page 9776

 1     alarm amongst town residents.  Right.

 2             MS. KORNER:  And then can we look next, please, at 65 ter 951.

 3     Going back in time actually.

 4        Q.   It's a daily report --

 5             MS. KORNER:  You have to bring it down a bit, the English, maybe

 6     the B/C/S.  Down.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Number 19, 12th of May, 1992, and all I want to point out here,

 8     Mr. Mandic, is in the third paragraph it talks about information coming

 9     out of Bosanski Samac.  15th of May -- sorry --

10             MS. KORNER:  P1013.

11        Q.   I want now to look at the other side to show that Banja Luka was

12     clearly receiving communications from Sarajevo or Pale.  This is

13     Mr. Zupljanin on the 15th of May, somebody I think received it on the

14     18th, saying we have received the communication number and date as above,

15     from the Serbian Republic of BiH, or BH MUP, and hereby convey it in its

16     entirety.

17             Then on the -- I can leave that one.

18             MS. KORNER:  And, yes, can we look, please, at 1265.  P1265.

19     Sorry, I'm so sorry, not 65 ter, P1265.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I must -- I would just like to note one thing.  We

21     haven't been notified that any of these documents will be used.

22             MS. KORNER:  This is re-examination.  All of these are on our 65

23     ter.  Sorry, Your Honours, I shouldn't talk across to Mr. Zecevic.  Your

24     Honours, we notified all the documents we are going to use, this is

25     cross-examination -- this is re-examination.  As far as I know, there's

Page 9777

 1     no obligation to send a list in advance of re-examination.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  These are documents on your 65 ter list.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Absolutely.  Some of them are exhibits already.  I

 4     mean, can I say, Mr. Zecevic thinks I'm taking unfair advantage, I'm

 5     simply using the documents, which are 65 ter, which have been in

 6     evidence, and, of course, he can always apply to Your Honours to re-cross

 7     examine if that's what he wants to do.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, it was just my opinion that it would be only

 9     fair that we were notified at least last night about the documents for

10     cross-examination [sic] if they are coming from somewhere different.

11     Those are not the documents that you used in your direct or we used in

12     our cross-examination.  That is the only thing.  I mean, I just noted

13     this, I'm not raising any problems with it.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could you please

15     supplement the rules applicable in this Tribunal.  I think it is the

16     obligation of the Prosecution to disclose to the Defence the documents

17     that they are going to use in redirect, so what is the purpose then for

18     our giving our documents to the Prosecution for cross-examination whilst

19     they do not do the same for redirect.  I don't think it's fair and,

20     therefore, I think you should rule that it is incumbent on the

21     Prosecution to supply us with a list of documents that they are going to

22     use in the redirect.  Therefore, that is a prejudice to the equality of

23     arms in these proceedings, even if it refers to 65 ter list.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I see the logic in the position taken by Mr. Krgovic

25     and Mr. Zecevic.  However, in as much as the Tribunal in its history to

Page 9778

 1     date has not seen the need to formulate such a rule, I would have thought

 2     that the answer is that the ordinary rule about re-examination being

 3     based on what has arisen in cross-examination necessarily implies that

 4     any documents which implicitly fall within that -- within that box, as it

 5     were, would be allowed to be used, and for myself, I don't see the need

 6     to formulate a new rule to specifically deal with this.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour said exactly what I was going to say.

 8     It arises from cross-examination which counsel decided to pursue.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] All I can say, Your Honours, is

10     that this position regarding the obligation of the Prosecution was raised

11     in the Popovic case and that there was a guide-line issued governing the

12     acting of the parties to the proceedings.  So it became the jurisprudence

13     of this Tribunal.

14             MS. KORNER:  May I continue, because I've got a lot to get

15     through with Mr. Mandic?

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

17             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  Right.  We've now got the right

18     document.  This is the daily report, and can we go in page 2 in English,

19     I think it's maybe at the bottom of the B/C/S.  We need to go to the

20     second page in B/C/S as well.

21        Q.   1st of June, so while the corridor operation, Mr. Mandic, is that

22     right, are in full blast, as it were?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And this is the analysis and information service again sending it

25     to the MUP, the Serbian government and handwritten delivered to the

Page 9779

 1     government, under-secretaries, and office of the minister, and all we

 2     need to note is that it's got a long paragraph about what is happening in

 3     Banja Luka.

 4             That's just a set of examples, but there are a number of these

 5     documents.  Now in addition to SJBs reporting to the MUP, there were

 6     also, obviously, reports that the army produced.  Were you aware of that?

 7        A.   Ms. Korner, I'm testifying about what I know my information was,

 8     that at the beginning of the war, the Krajina was cut off in terms of

 9     telecommunications and roads.  In what way the police communicated

10     amongst themselves, I know nothing about.  I think that someone who

11     worked at the police at the time should provide information about that to

12     you.  All I know is that all telecommunications and road communications

13     were severed with Herzegovina, and Semberija, and other parts.  It was

14     very difficult to establish contacts with various parts of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This is what I know, and I'm talking only about what

16     I know.  How the police communicated is not up to me to explain to you.

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, sorry, can I explain.  You agreed with an assertion

18     made by Mr. Zecevic that you were not -- you, the government, were not

19     receiving any information from the areas that you mentioned, in

20     particular, the Krajina.  I'm simply asking you whether in the light of

21     these documents, which were clearly being sent to the government, you'd

22     like to reconsider that answer?

23        A.   I'm reiterating, Ms. Korner, what I said, and that is that

24     communications with certain parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina were cut off.  We

25     didn't have information about what was happening there.  I'm talking

Page 9780

 1     about what was said at official meetings of the government.  However, in

 2     what way the police and the army communicated is something that I cannot

 3     tell you about.  I also don't know whether Mr. Djeric, the prime

 4     minister, received any information.  We started receiving information

 5     from the army and the reports about events in certain areas where the

 6     Crisis Staffs started setting up camps, prisons, and things like that.

 7     That is when these commissions were set up to go into the field in order

 8     to restore the rule of law.

 9        Q.   Sorry, it may be a mistake in the translation.  You said, I also

10     don't know whether Mr. Djeric, the prime minister, received any

11     information about the army and reports about events and camps.  Do you

12     mean you do know?  Because you've just said that's when these commissions

13     were set up.

14        A.   Mr. Djeric was a member of the Supreme Command or rather, the

15     Security Council, as a representative of the government, which included

16     the army commander, the president of the republic, two members of the

17     Presidency, and the minister of defence.  What reports and information

18     reach these people is something that I know nothing.

19        Q.   Well, all right, you say you know nothing, but just so that we

20     could look at one example, can we have please up exhibit -- just a

21     minute.

22             MS. KORNER:  P260, please.  Exhibit P260.

23        Q.   This is the minutes of the fourth expanded meeting of the War

24     Presidency, dated the 9th of June.  Present, Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Plavsic,

25     Dr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Djeric, misspelled, General Mladic,

Page 9781

 1     General Gvero, and Colonel Tolimir.  And General Mladic briefed the

 2     Presidency in detail about the overall situation of the Serbian army and

 3     gave figures on the quantities of weapon, ammunition, spare parts,

 4     et cetera.  And then under -- after a detailed discussion the following

 5     was concluded:  Instruct members of the Serbian army to abide by the

 6     Geneva Conventions in their treatment of prisoners of war.

 7             So are you saying, Mr. Mandic, that after he attended this

 8     meeting, Mr. Djeric never said to anybody else in the government, there

 9     are serious problems going on with these camps and what is happening in

10     these areas?

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, I don't see the connection with this

12     document and what you have just said, Ms. Korner.  I don't see in this

13     document mentioning of any camps, any atrocities committed in the area.

14             MS. KORNER:  Instruct members of the Serbian army to abide by the

15     Geneva Conventions in their treatment of prisoners of war.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  It might suggest, Mr. Zecevic --

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it might suggest.  I agree.  It might suggest

19     anything.  It might suggest that they were not informed before about the

20     Geneva Conventions or whatever.  It doesn't suggest that there was

21     information that anything of a kind was -- I'm really just trying to keep

22     it within the context of the document.

23             MS. KORNER:  Okay.  All right, Mr. Zecevic.  Can we look,

24     please -- can we have up 65 ter 1460, please.

25        Q.   Which is two days later, in fact.  It's dated the 11th of June,

Page 9782

 1     to the Main Staff of the army.  And can we have a look, please, at -- I'm

 2     not sure where it's going to be in B/C/S.  One, two, three, four, fifth

 3     page in English.  Yes, probably on that page, thank you very much.

 4        Q.   This talks about the collection centre for the members of the

 5     paramilitary formation formed in Bileca by the order of the 2nd Operative

 6     Group Command, grew into the war in the prisoner accommodation centre

 7     operating under very difficult circumstances due to the large number of

 8     people it must accommodate, 244 of whom 16 are women and several minors.

 9     Occasional threats by pro-Chetnik forces will be attacked and liquidated

10     along with a corps command, and we propose that persons for the centre be

11     urgently exchanged, and the centre, if possible, relocated.

12             Now, were these matters, matters that Mr. Djeric, when he came

13     back from meetings of the expanded War Presidency, would discuss with

14     other members of the government, particularly the minister of justice?

15        A.   Ms. Korner, this was a strictly confidential dispatch sent by the

16     Herzegovina command to their staff.  What does that have to do with the

17     government, Mr. Djeric, or the Ministry of Justice?  Look at the first

18     page where it says strictly confidential, it's a military secret.  How

19     can a military secret be discussed in the government?

20        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Mandic, you said that --

21        A.   What does that have to do with the government.  I don't

22     understand.  I don't understand what you are saying.

23        Q.   Mr. Mandic, the part I've just read is, and what you spent

24     sometime explaining both here and in the Krajisnik case, was this

25     question of the exchange of prisoners.  And this is what this is

Page 9783

 1     suggesting, isn't it, and the exchange of prisoners was a matter for the

 2     government?

 3        A.   We said that the army had their own commission for exchange until

 4     a central state commission was set up at the level of the government.

 5     And this is what this strictly confidential document speaks about, but

 6     since this was a military secret, I don't think that anyone from the

 7     government could have an insight into it and be informed of it.  It was

 8     sent by the Herzegovina Corps to the Supreme Command, and I see this

 9     document or something like this for the first time in my life.

10        Q.   Yes, Mr. Mandic, please understand this, all that I am dealing

11     with at the moment is the suggestion that you agreed with it that you

12     were not getting any information during the period of the corridor

13     operation in particular from Krajina, Bosnia, Samac.

14             Now, in the light of what I've just shown you, do you still want

15     to stick to that answer?

16        A.   Ms. Korner, you have in front of you the documents and all the

17     minutes of the meetings of the government, what was decided and what

18     conclusions were reached.  All these documents and information presented

19     at the government sessions were something that was acted upon, and

20     relevant conclusions were reached.  I'm saying again that regular

21     telecommunications and road communications were severed.  Whether the

22     army, however, or the police had their own means of communications is

23     something that I know nothing about, and I'm telling you the truth.

24        Q.   Look, Mr. Mandic, just concentrate, please, for a moment.  It is

25     not your position, is it -- or is it your position that no member of the

Page 9784

 1     government, no minister, leaving aside yourself for the moment,

 2     Mr. Stanisic, or Mr. Djeric was getting information during the course

 3     between April and the end of June, 1992 from the areas that were within

 4     the vicinity of the corridor?

 5        A.   I'm telling you, Ms. Korner, about what was discussed at

 6     government session, what the agendas were.  But who had what information

 7     and what kind of information, it's not up to me to guess.

 8        Q.   All right.  Let's have a look at another matter that you agreed

 9     with Mr. Zecevic about.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The obvious question to put to the witness would

13     then be, well, Mr. Mandic, what information did you have?  If you you

14     can't tell anything about what other members of the government might have

15     had, then what information did you receive either formally or informally?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all the information

17     that I received were presented to the government.  There are minutes and

18     conclusions and debates to that effect.  And that was the only

19     information that I could receive at the government sessions, either from

20     the prime minister or from other ministers.  And all that is contained in

21     the documents whether in this case file or some place else.  You can find

22     the agendas, the proposals, and the conclusions.  This is the information

23     that I had.  Whether someone in the government knew more or less is

24     something that I know nothing about.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 9785

 1        Q.   Yes.  But Judge Harhoff asked you formally or informally.  You

 2     dealt with this in the Krajisnik days.  Did you have informal information

 3     about camps and ill-treatment?

 4        A.   I was focused more on Sarajevo, Ms. Korner.  And I spoke about

 5     that in the Krajisnik case.

 6             MS. KORNER:  I'll find -- I'll ask Ms. Pidwell if she can find

 7     it.  You said rather more than that, but I don't want to waste time.

 8     Would Your Honours give me for one moment.

 9             Can we move, while that's being done, to what you said to

10     Mr. Zecevic about Manjaca.  He was putting to you that, in answer to

11     questions that I was asking, you confirmed in response to my question

12     that you had no information about Manjaca and Sanski Most.  Do you

13     remember that?  And your answer was this:  "Yes, that is correct.  I had

14     no information whatsoever" -- sorry, this is page 9591.

15             "We simply couldn't obtain any information because the Krajina

16     was completely severed.  Only after the corridor had been opened, we

17     could use the roads and telecommunications.

18             "Q. Although your ministry had certain institutions on the ground

19     that were under your jurisdictions, like, for example, the prison in

20     Doboj, the district prison in Doboj, you had no contact with that

21     institution all the way until the corridor was open; is that correct.

22             "A. Yes.  Due to this and similar problems I think that Doboj was

23     set up only towards the end of 1992 in December after we had completed

24     the re-organisation."

25             First of all, can I deal with what you said about Manjaca.

Page 9786

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes, this is part of the 92 ter package, Your

 2     Honours.  At the moment it's got the number -- I think it was given

 3     exhibit numbers, but I don't know what they are.  Anyhow, it's 10302.19.

 4     Tab 58.  Exhibit P1318.37.

 5        Q.   And you were asked about this intercept in the Krajisnik case.

 6     And by the way, while we were on the subject of intercepts, you've

 7     listened to a large number of them, haven't you, Mr. Mandic, both for the

 8     purposes of the Krajisnik case, also for this case.  In any of the ones

 9     that you have listened to, have you seen any or heard any evidence that

10     these are not your conversations as you had them with the various people?

11        A.   I only said that we knew we were being listened to by

12     [indiscernible] and we made fun of it.  He seem to have meddled with

13     those conversations in order to create his own archives.  In this

14     conversation, you can see that I was aware of being wire-tapped.  All the

15     intercepts you presented to me as well as those that were presented to me

16     by the Prosecution in the Krajisnik case were publicised a number of time

17     on federal TV during the war in different versions.

18        Q.   I agree.  I agree entirely, Mr. Mandic.  The only thing I'm

19     asking you is, you've listened to these.  Are these conversations,

20     conversations that you had?

21        A.   Yes, for the most part.

22        Q.   All right.  Well, this one, this is between you -- somebody

23     called Ivo Rezo.  Who was he?

24        A.   It is a work-mate of mine from the police.  A Croat.

25        Q.   Right.  And then between yourself and Mr. -- it should be -- is

Page 9787

 1     that Branko Kvesic, the ex-head of the SNB in the old BiH MUP?

 2        A.   He was the chief of the state security.

 3        Q.   And it's right, isn't it, that you conducted -- sorry, you and

 4     indeed Mr. Stojic and Mr. Kvesic and Mr. Rezo all remained, despite the

 5     conflict, on good terms?

 6        A.   Throughout the war I was on good terms with all of my colleagues,

 7     whether they were Muslim or Croat.

 8        Q.   All right.  This is the 10th of July, and the only part of the

 9     conversation I want to ask you about is --

10             MS. KORNER: It's on page 11 of 23 in English.  I'm going to have

11     trouble finding it, I think, in B/C/S.  Your Honours, could we try

12     looking -- usually it's less.  Could we try looking at about page 9 in

13     the B/C/S.

14        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you can read English, can't you, while somebody tries

15     to find it in the B/C/S.  This is you and Mr. Kvesic talking, and you

16     say -- or he says to you, this is the 10th of July:

17             "There are some of our men in Manjaca, man."  And he says, and

18     you say, I'm so sorry, "in the Krajina, right?"  And over the page in

19     English, please.  He says:  "Yes."  You say:  "We can do it."

20             "Q. What can you do about it?  A lot."  And then naturally -- and

21     you say:  "All right, I'll tell it to my main boss."

22             Stopping there for a moment, who was your main boss, Mr. Mandic?

23        A.   The prime minister Djeric and the president of the republic,

24     Mr. Karadzic.

25        Q.   And then Mr. Kvesic asked you to check it, please.  You ask:

Page 9788

 1     "Where are they placed?"  And he says:  "You know where I am."  And you

 2     say:  "I know it, but where are they placed over there."  You say:  "They

 3     are placed somewhere on Manjaca" -- he says, sorry.  And you say:  "Over

 4     there in the military camp in Manjaca."

 5             So stopping there, and I'm sorry that we couldn't find it in the

 6     B/C/S, but what effectively Mr. Kvesic was asking you to do was what so

 7     many other people had asked you to do was to get somebody released, that

 8     right, or to find some of his men?

 9        A.   Branko Kvesic didn't know at all ... First of all, he informed me

10     of the existence of Manjaca and Krajina.  I didn't know where it was, as

11     you can see.  And he asked me as a friend and work-mate whether something

12     could be done so that those people would be found.  He had no idea what

13     my powers were and who was in charge of those prisons, et cetera.  I

14     asked him whether this was in the Krajina, whether Manjaca was in the

15     Krajina.

16        Q.   Exactly.  That's what I mean, you knew in July because you say in

17     the Krajina, right, checking that it's not him who says in the Krajina,

18     it's you.  So you knew where Manjaca was.

19        A.   I asked him if it was in the Krajina, and he confirmed this.  I

20     was completely unfamiliar with where Manjaca was let alone knowing

21     anything about what was going on there.  You can see that in this

22     conversation.  I did try to assist Branko in order to get to those people

23     by whatever means, and this is where the conversation ended.

24        Q.   I'm sorry, do you mean it was an inspired guess when you said

25     Krajina as opposed to anywhere else in Serbian Bosnia?

Page 9789

 1        A.   You can see the question mark, is it in the Krajina?  I asked him

 2     if Manjaca was in the Krajina.  You can see it in the Serbian clearly.

 3     And Branko told me it was.  I had no idea where Manjaca was.  You can see

 4     the question mark.  And he explains that the army or rather, the TO, were

 5     in charge of that camp.  I had no idea.

 6        Q.   Just a moment, Mr. Mandic.  First of all, it's page a 7 in the

 7     B/C/S.  I see it's up there.

 8             He says to you there are some of our men in Manjaca.  I'm asking

 9     you how you happened to hit upon the Krajina, as opposed to, for example,

10     I don't know, Vlasenica I heard somebody else say?

11        A.   Manjaca is a hill or a mountain in the Krajina, Ms. Korner.

12     There is a large monument there to the victims of World War II.  I was

13     taught that in my history class, and I went to visit it.  Manjaca is not

14     a camp alone, it's a mountain.  It is likely that the military camp was

15     named after the mountain.  It's a large mountain, and there were many

16     civilians shot there in World War II.  It's history.

17        Q.   Are you saying you didn't know that Manjaca was a military

18     training-ground before this and had been opened originally in 1991 to

19     hold prisoners from Croatia?

20        A.   I didn't know that.  I hear of this for the first time from you.

21        Q.   All right.

22             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back then, please, can we go to the next

23     page, because you say he was telling you it was a military camp.  No,

24     sorry.  Where are we?  The page before that.  Thank you.  Page before

25     that, please.

Page 9790

 1        Q.   "You know where I am.

 2             "I know it.  But where are they placed over there?

 3             "They are placed somewhere on Manjaca.

 4             "Over there in the military camp on Manjaca?"

 5             It's you, not Mr. Kvesic who calls it a camp.

 6        A.   Could I have it in the Serbian, please.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  At the top of the page, is it not?

 8        A.   Let's see the previous page where he explained to me that they

 9     were at Manjaca in the military camp, Branko Kvesic said so, and then I

10     repeat, is it in the military camp?

11        Q.   All right.  I don't want to -- I think we've spent enough time on

12     this, and as you are anxious to finish today and so am I, Mr. Mandic,

13     we'll leave that.  Are you still saying you didn't know about Manjaca

14     until -- when do you say you first heard of Manjaca?  When you got the

15     report?

16        A.   I can't say with any certainty when I heard of it but as soon as

17     we did ... I think once the corridor was created, Manjaca was disbanded.

18     That was my information.  It was a strictly military camp which was

19     disbanded by presidential decree in the summer of 1992.  I think my

20     information is correct, and believe me when I say I know nothing of the

21     camp.  It was a military camp which lasted for only a short period of

22     time as far as I know.

23        Q.   Well, I'm not going to say whether your information is correct or

24     not.  Did you hear of a camp called Batkovic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9791

 1        Q.   And did you know that prisoners from Omarska and other places

 2     including Manjaca were transferred from there -- from Omarska and Manjaca

 3     to Batkovic?

 4        A.   Ms. Korner, these were all military camps, military prisons.  I

 5     can generalise about what I did or did not hear, but I have no official

 6     information.  I didn't even know of Batkovic in Semberija.  It's

 7     somewhere in the environs of Bijeljina in the barracks, is it?

 8        Q.   While we are dealing with that, it is your assertion that

 9     Omarska, the camp that was in Omarska was a military camp?

10        A.   I'm not certain of that.  I don't know.

11        Q.   If it was a police camp, was that something that the minister

12     should have been informed of?

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  I would just like to get the reference in my

14     cross-examination where this comes from, Omarska.

15             MS. KORNER:  The cross-examination as put -- would you like to

16     sit down, Mr. Zecevic, while I stand up.  Thank you.

17             The cross-examination adduced from Mr. Mandic or put to

18     Mr. Mandic, that all the camps and, indeed, the majority of the prisons

19     were run by the military.  I'm now dealing with camps that he knew about

20     that were not run by the military.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, it's time for the break, Ms. Korner.

22             MS. KORNER:  Oh right.

23             JUDGE HALL:  20 minutes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

Page 9792

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             MS. KORNER:

 4        Q.   I just, Mr. Mandic, want to finish this question of the

 5     information that you had, and I want to remind you of what you said in

 6     Krajisnik, which you confirmed a few days ago you didn't dispute, but

 7     still dealing with information, if Mr. Zupljanin was aware that there was

 8     a camp under the control of the police for holding prisoners, would that

 9     be something that Mr. Zupljanin would be expected to report to

10     Mr. Stanisic?  And I'm drawing on your long years as a police officer.

11        A.   According to the rules of service, he should have.  I don't know

12     whether he did though.

13        Q.   Just quickly to remind you of what you were asked and answered in

14     Krajisnik, this is at page 8917.  It's day 5.  You were asked:

15             "What was the situation in respect of conditions and

16     accommodation detention facilities and were guarded by or held by

17     police," something went wrong there, I think, but anyhow, with the

18     English recording.  And your answer was:

19             "The government, as an executive branch, was not capable to

20     supervise directly the facilities that were safeguarded mainly by the

21     army and to a lesser extent by the police.  Various reports and

22     information came from the ground about irregularities and inhumane

23     treatment in these facilities and certain parts of the Republika Srpska

24     and Bosnia and Herzegovina," which is to deal with the question you were

25     asked by ... do you stand by that answer?

Page 9793

 1        A.   Yes, I do.  I said the same thing in the Krajisnik case and here.

 2        Q.   Well, I'm not sure about here, that's why I was asking you about

 3     it.  And just for the purpose of the record, you said at page 8926:

 4             "We" -- and when I -- well, the question was from Mr. Tieger:

 5     "Did the poor function of the judiciary have an impact on the issue that

 6     was concerning the government, that is, the retention of people in

 7     detention facilities and camps and the ill treatment in those

 8     facilities?"

 9             And you say:  "We, and when say I say 'we,' I mean the

10     government, we received a lot of information from the ground, negative

11     information concerning camps, the emergence of camp, closing of camps,

12     and the difficulty in the practice of the judiciary, and we made great

13     efforts in order for the state commission for exchange to be equipped

14     with [indiscernible]" and so on and so forth.  And agreed, do you stand

15     by that answer?

16        A.   I think I said the same thing here when we were discussing the

17     establishment of state-level commissions by the government.  That was the

18     information that gradually poured in, and we reacted to it.  I think the

19     answers were identical in both cases.

20        Q.   And finally on this whole topic, and I want to move to something

21     else, the question of when Doboj was opened.  Could you have a look,

22     please, at the document which, I think was -- it's P1306.  It was tab 82

23     in our documents.

24             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I've made an error.

25        Q.   Because I do want to finish today, so do you remember appointing

Page 9794

 1     Mr. Vidic in July as the warden of Doboj prison?  I can show you the

 2     document, if you like, if I can find it.  That's the wrong one.

 3        A.   Please, I probably did.

 4        Q.   Doboj prison was operating from June, July; is that right?  Not

 5     from December, as you said?

 6        A.   I think it came into function towards the end of the year,

 7     although I'm not sure.  I know that we formed one in Sarajevo first, then

 8     in Banja Luka, Foca, and Doboj next.  The way we established county court

 9     is the way we followed with the prisons.  I think you can all find it in

10     the "Official Gazette".  There's nothing in dispute there.

11        Q.   As I say, Mr. Mandic, because I've made a wrong -- don't worry.

12     The Court has seen the document, in any event.

13             Can we now move, please, to a different topic, please.  You were

14     asked at 9627 of the transcript, yeah, about -- this was put to you:

15             "Let us get back to Hasan Cengic and the Party of Democratic

16     Action.  You were certainly aware that in the course of 1991 the SDA

17     party secretly sent Muslim trainees for training to the MUP of the

18     Republika Srpska without informing the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina?"

20             And I think somewhere else you talked about arming.  Do you

21     remember saying that?

22        A.   No.  I said that the information I had was that through Hasan

23     Cengic, the SDA, as a party, sent Muslim representatives for training to

24     Croatia.

25        Q.   Yes.  And you were asked also about the question of the police,

Page 9795

 1     the Muslim police receiving arms; do you remember that?  I can't lay my

 2     hand on the reference.  But I want to ask you about the other side of

 3     this.

 4        A.   Yes, the reserve police force.

 5        Q.   And you were asked about document 25.  I just want to ask you

 6     about -- sorry, Mr. Mandic, could you have a look, please ...

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm so sorry, as I say, every now and

 8     again my noting goes completely haywire over a matter of days.  Your

 9     Honours, hopefully I can come back to it at another stage.

10        Q.   Now, yesterday, that was on the first day when you were

11     cross-examined, you were asked and dealt with the Cutileiro plan, and you

12     as everyone else says that the split of the MUP took place because of the

13     Cutileiro plan, which you say was signed; right?

14        A.   No, no.  It wasn't because of the Cutileiro Plan.  It was one of

15     the reasons only because the plan foresaw the local police forces be

16     split along ethnic lines, or to reflect the ethnic makeup of the

17     particular region.

18        Q.   Absolutely, that's it, Mr. Mandic.  You say it was one of the

19     reasons, and certainly that's what was proposed, but you know, don't you,

20     that it was never actually --

21        A.   That is the basis.  It is clearly stated in the dispatch that it

22     was pursuant to the constitution of the RS, the Law on Internal Affairs,

23     and the Cutileiro Plan, i.e., the Lisbon Agreement.  You have in the

24     dispatch all of the elements spelled out which resulted in this.  It's

25     all clear there.

Page 9796

 1        Q.   Yes, but, Mr. Mandic, you are aware, aren't you, that on the 18th

 2     of March, 1992, so well after the discussions in the Assembly, the three

 3     sides had agreed purely to a statement of principles?

 4        A.   I had the complete Cutileiro Plan and the Lisbon agreement where

 5     you clearly have provisions about the functioning of the police.  It's

 6     somewhere among the documents.

 7        Q.   Yes.  Mr. Mandic, just listen carefully to the question.  I am

 8     not disputing for one moment that one of the elements of the statement of

 9     principles was that there would be a divided police force.  But in actual

10     fact, the agreement was never actually signed by anyone?  It never came

11     into the statement of principles, that was all.

12        A.   It's not true that he didn't sign it.  It wasn't ratified because

13     Mr. Izetbegovic dropped the agreement upon his return to Sarajevo.  When

14     he said that he thought one thing before lunch and another after lunch,

15     that's what he said when they asked him why he gave up on the agreement.

16     The agreement was never ratified.

17        Q.   Well, it isn't, is it, Mr. Mandic, that's what I want to know,

18     simply it wasn't a convenient, if you like, principle on which you could

19     hang what you intended to do in any event, which was split the MUP?  When

20     I say you, I mean the Serbian government.

21        A.   Sorry, I did not understand you.

22        Q.   Sorry, I was distracted, Mr. Mandic.

23             Mr. Mandic, you had already - we are going to look at the

24     February 11th meeting in a moment - you had already, hadn't you, decided

25     long before even the statement of principles was decided, that was agreed

Page 9797

 1     upon, that you were going to split the MUP?

 2        A.   Not that we were going to split the MUP, but we were going to

 3     create the Serbian MUP once the problem began with the joint MUP and one

 4     of the grounds for that was the Cutileiro Plan.  With the appearance of

 5     Mirsad Srebrenkovic and the relationships within the police force growing

 6     more complicated, that's how it all started.

 7             Already in February, Mico Stanisic was nominated, and we were

 8     informed that he would become the minister.  And it was officialised with

 9     my dispatch, if that's what you mean.

10        Q.   This is the point, isn't it, once you had declared the Serbian

11     Republic in Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was inevitable, wasn't it, that there

12     would be a split in the MUP?  So again, back to January of 1992.

13        A.   What is the question?

14        Q.   The question is, Mr. Mandic, the declaration of the Serbian

15     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in January, didn't that mean inevitably

16     there would have to be a separate Serbian MUP?

17        A.   That was a response to the self-proclamation of one part of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina and one at the community as independent.  The Serbian

19     people did not want to leave the common state, but once one of the

20     nations proclaimed their independence, then we said we have to make our

21     own state now.  Our hand was forced.  You know that the referendum was

22     carried out without the participation of the Serbian people.  None of the

23     Serbs turned out.

24        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I'm not -- can I say straightaway, I understand your

25     position and that of many others, but this was all caused by what

Page 9798

 1     happened in October.  All I want to know is, is it right that once you

 2     declared the Serbian Republic a separate Serbian MUP was, as far as you

 3     were concerned, inevitable?  Either yes or no, please.

 4        A.   No, no, but just let me just explain, please, I'm your witness,

 5     let me explain this.  We in the executive arm just carried out what the

 6     Assembly of the Serbian people decided.  On the 23rd when the Law on

 7     Internal Affairs was published in the "Official Gazette," within eight

 8     days under that law, we created the Serbian MUP, and that's when the

 9     dispatch was sent out.

10             It was not up to us to chart policies but to carry out the

11     decisions of the Assembly.  If the Assembly had said let's create a

12     unitarian Bosnia-Herzegovina where voting will be conducted in proportion

13     to the numbers of population, we would have done that.

14        Q.   That's fine, I want to move on to the 11th of February meeting.

15     Now, what you said about that was that it was organised by you; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you personally invited Mr. Delimustafic?

18        A.   I informed Mr. Delimustafic about that meeting.  I had gone to

19     see him and I told him minister, if you can come and attend yourself or

20     send someone because we need to discuss these problems that had

21     accumulated already, and we were going to discuss them at the

22     headquarters of the police.

23        Q.   And he refused to come, that's what you are saying, is it?

24        A.   He didn't dare to come.  He didn't want to come.  He would have

25     been replaced immediately.

Page 9799

 1        Q.   Did he refuse to come?  Did he tell you, I cannot possibly come?

 2        A.   Yes, he said, I can't come.

 3        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... no intention to have a secret meeting

 4     at all?

 5        A.   In a public building in the restaurant on the first floor of the

 6     Bosna hotel there was no intention to hold a secret meeting.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you want to finish today, don't you?  So please,

 8     please just answer the question very quietly.  Right.  Did you ask any of

 9     the other senior staff of BiH MUP, for example, your friend Mr. Kvesic,

10     who was in charge of the I suppose it was then the SNB but the DRB or

11     whatever?

12        A.   No, I didn't ask him.

13        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... not meant to be a secret meeting?

14        A.   It was a meeting to discuss the problems of the Serbian part of

15     the MUP, 2.000 police officers who were supposed to be dismissed from the

16     service and all other problems concerning Srebrenkovic and the operation

17     of the Serbian MUP that did not concern the Croats.

18        Q.   See, you didn't ask anybody who wasn't a Serb to this meeting,

19     did you, other than, as you say, Mr. Alija Delimustafic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And why in that case, as you clearly were discussing important

22     and, let's put it this way confidential matters, why didn't you hold it

23     in the premises of the CSB in Banja Luka?

24        A.   It was more comfortable in the Bosna hotel.  We had waiters there

25     and s cafeteria nearby.  It was an open room.  It was not a secret

Page 9800

 1     meeting.  A secret meeting would have been held in a closed conference

 2     room.  It was just an opportunity to exchange views on a problem and to

 3     find some common ground on the problems that could not be resolved.

 4        Q.   But, Mr. Mandic, what you were discussing on any showing were

 5     matters really that shouldn't be known to the general public; isn't that

 6     right?  These were internal police matters?

 7        A.   That's not true.  We wanted the public to know about these

 8     problems, and we informed the public, Ms. Korner.  We discussed it also

 9     at the headquarters of the MUP without any success.  We didn't want to

10     keep these secret.

11        Q.   And so the fact that Mr. Zupljanin's deputy was a Muslim,

12     Mr. Jahic, had nothing to do with -- that's not why you didn't hold the

13     meeting in the CSB?

14        A.   No.  Really not.  I swear to you.  It had nothing to do with any

15     intention of secrecy.

16        Q.   And the minute-taker, Mr. Vilasovic [phoen] had been selected by

17     you, had he, because you knew him?

18        A.   I think he was a driver.  I can't remember what he was.  He was

19     some sort of lower-level employee.  He was not an official.

20        Q.   You talked about him in the Krajisnik trial briefly.

21        A.   I can't remember that name.  I really don't know what position he

22     occupied.

23        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... the minutes ...

24        A.   I don't know.  Whether it was I who picked him or someone else, I

25     can't even remember who chaired the meeting.

Page 9801

 1        Q.   All right.  And the final thing that I want to ask you about the

 2     actual meeting is, were the minutes sent to Mr. Delimustafic or given to

 3     him by you once they had been typed up?

 4        A.   Yes.  I took them to him.

 5        Q.   You personally gave him the minutes?

 6        A.   And Mr. Delimustafic was made aware of all of that.  He knew in

 7     advance what the problem was.  We presented it all to him several times.

 8     Srebrenkovic, the arrival of these police officers without vetting, the

 9     problems with official IDs.  All these were well known problems in the

10     functioning of the joint MUP.

11        Q.   And did Mr. Delimustafic do anything about, go and talk to

12     anybody about what was clearly being discussed as a split in the MUP on

13     the 11th of February?

14        A.   Not that I know.

15        Q.   And you didn't ask Mr. Zepinic to this meeting, did you?

16        A.   No, I did not.

17        Q.   Because Mr. Zepinic, as you knew, was, in fact, totally against

18     the idea of splitting up the MUP, wasn't he?

19        A.   I really don't know what his views were.  I can't speak about

20     that.

21        Q.   Well, you were asked to look again at the dispatch that you sent

22     out immediately after that, which is -- it was Defence document tab 28.

23        A.   I know that dispatch by heart.

24             MS. KORNER:  I know.  I just want to have it up again for a

25     moment.  P527.  Thank you.

Page 9802

 1        Q.   And you were asked about it and said it was a public and open

 2     dispatch and you had -- and it was received by those on duty in the

 3     respective police stations and centres.  Now, you agree, it's -- it

 4     doesn't set out what the conclusions were, or indeed, what the meeting

 5     was about.  You simply say:

 6             "Following the conclusions reached at the meeting held in Banja

 7     Luka, please set up and have a meeting with all senior executives."

 8             So anybody reading that wouldn't have the faintest idea of what

 9     had been discussed, would they, on the 11th of February?

10        A.   I don't know how you interpret this.  It says:  "Following the

11     conclusions" --

12        Q.   Stop.  Does that tell anybody who might read this open dispatch

13     what the meeting was about or what the conclusions reached were?  Simple

14     yes or no.

15        A.   Could you repeat the question, I wasn't focused.

16        Q.   It's fairly obvious.  Right, you sent it to Zupljanin, Banja Luka

17     CSB, a Serb?

18        A.   It was sent to all those police officials who attending the

19     meeting.

20        Q.   Yes, but this is what I want to know.  You say it was an open

21     meeting and you were sending it to everybody.  Why didn't you send it to

22     the Bihac CSB?

23        A.   Because that man would not have forwarded it to all the police

24     agencies on the ground.  I asked these people to inform all the agencies

25     in their territory, including, of course, Muslims and Croats, because I

Page 9803

 1     said in the area the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP because

 2     some of these parts interfered -- sort of were involved in our problems.

 3        Q.   You didn't send it to the Livno CSB, and there were Serbs working

 4     there as well, weren't there?

 5        A.   Where the majority were Croats, these problems discussed at the

 6     meeting were not relevant.

 7        Q.   Didn't go to Tuzla or Zenica?

 8        A.   No, I did not send it to areas where the leaders were Muslims who

 9     advocated the unlawful expansion of the MUP.  That's Bihac, Zenica,

10     Tuzla, these three centres.

11        Q.   Right.  Now, you said at one point to Mr. Zepinic, after a long

12     explanation at page 9676 when you were talking about the Cutileiro Plan

13     and all the rest of it, and you explained that now the Dayton Accords

14     effectively implemented the Cutileiro Plan, and you said:

15             "And what did we have in the meantime?  A bloody war for four

16     years, and who is responsible for that, I ask you?"

17             Now, could you have a look, please, at one of the documents that

18     was part of the 92 ter package.  And it is, I don't know what the exhibit

19     number is, but it was 1489 on the 65 ter list.  P739.  Thank you.

20             I'm sure you remember this, Mr. Mandic.  This was an interview

21     conducted with you in a magazine called "Ekstra."  It's not clear, I

22     don't think it was ever discovered when it was published.  And you were

23     asked, page 2 in English, and it's on that page, the whole thing is one

24     page:

25             "How did you personally take the political conflict and severance

Page 9804

 1     of relations between the Republika Srpska and the FRY, Federal Republic

 2     of Yugoslavia?

 3             As a man I'm very devoted to both Slobodan Milosevic, Radovan

 4     Karadzic.  With Karadzic and Krajisnik, I began the war in Sarajevo and

 5     now when I'm sitting here and watching what happened, I find

 6     justification for the Serbian leadership of Yugoslavia.  I justify it by

 7     the fact there was an objective threat of putting twelve million people

 8     in total isolation, which would have disastrous consequences, and in

 9     order to avoid that, Slobodan Milosevic and his associates had to do what

10     they did, in my opinion."

11             And then further on you were asked this, you were dealing with

12     people who had left, and it said -- sorry, next page, please, in English.

13     Karadzic's family is at Pale, as is the family of Momo Krajisnik.  And

14     then the question, it says:

15             "Biljana Plavsic is not the only person who got her relatives

16     out.  Many delegates have sent their families to Belgrade and places in

17     Yugoslavia."  And you said:  "As for state leadership, Karadzic's family

18     is at Pale, as is the family of Krajisnik.  Koljevic's at Belgrade, as is

19     Biljana's family.  We differed in respect to this issue Mico Stanisic and

20     I started the war in Bosnia.  We separated the Serbian part of the MUP

21     and set out to Vrace.  We were supposed to be shot."  And then you go on

22     talking.  Can we go to the next page in English.  He's talking about

23     Ostojic a swindler.  Stanisic was dismissed from office.  "The fact that

24     some see me as Slobodan's man is a result of the fact that Mico Stanisic

25     and I are friends.  Mico Stanisic and I started the war in Bosnia."

Page 9805

 1             That's what you said, wasn't it, then Mr. Mandic, some time ago

 2     now, looking at the photograph?

 3        A.   Ms. Korner, I don't know what this newspaper is, but this

 4     interview was given probably several years after the fact, for propaganda

 5     purposes during the conflict between me and Biljana Plavsic.  I was

 6     telling the truth here, whereas this interview is unauthorised.  It's not

 7     true, and it has nothing to do with what actually happened in 1991 and

 8     1992.

 9        Q.   Are you saying, Mr. Mandic, that what you said -- first of all,

10     do you agree that's what you said, leaving aside whether it's true or

11     not?

12        A.   Never.  Never in my life.  I never said I started the war in

13     Bosnia.  That's nonsense.  I'm not the kind of man who would have said

14     something like that.  I have rather a high opinion of myself, but still,

15     I would not have been able to overestimate my role to such a degree.

16        Q.   When you saw this article when it came out, did you ask them to

17     print a retraction?

18        A.   The first time I saw this article was when it was given to me --

19     shown to me by Mr. Tieger when I was interviewed as a suspect.  I don't

20     even know in which city this newspaper is published.  And it's obvious

21     that this was in the 1990s, after the war, I believe.

22        Q.   Yes, I'm sure it was after the war.

23             MS. KORNER:  Can you look now please at the interview, the one

24     that you gave to "Slobodna Bosna" on the 10th of April 1998 which is 1389

25     -- 65 ter 1389.  Sorry.  P735.  Thank you.

Page 9806

 1        Q.   Now before we go into this, do you agree that you gave this

 2     interview to "Slobodna Bosna?"

 3        A.   Could you just show me the date and the year?  I can't remember

 4     this.

 5        Q.   I think you can see the date if we enlarge the B/C/S.  It's 10th

 6     of April, 1998.  Can you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   You were shown that in the Krajisnik case.  This is part of

 9     your ... so did you give that interview?

10        A.   I can't remember.

11        Q.   1998 is a long time ago now, but when you saw it in the Krajisnik

12     case, did you remember it?  Or before the Krajisnik case?

13        A.   It was probably presented there.  I don't recall if I was able to

14     to recall it at that trial or not.  This was 12 or more years ago.

15        Q.   Let's just look at what you apparently said there.  It's

16     headlined:  "It wasn't just Serbs and Croats negotiating, we've offered

17     the place of the president to the Yugoslav government to Izetbegovic

18     too."  And then this is said to be a quote from you, "there would be no

19     war if Ramiz Delalic was arrested in time.  Dragan Kijac, Mico Stanisic,

20     and myself organised the barricades in March.  Now you have been telling

21     the Court that this was a spontaneous outbreak.  Did you say that --

22     first of all, did you say that to this magazine?

23        A.   I don't remember.  I really don't remember.  1998, some Sarajevo

24     newspaper.  And how could I talk about Mr. Izetbegovic as the prime

25     minister of Yugoslavia?

Page 9807

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MS. KORNER: Can we just move on in the English to the fourth

 3     page, please.

 4        Q.   The March barricades -- was the question:  "The March barricades

 5     in Sarajevo were organised by the SDS.  Did you take part in their

 6     organisation, and what did the SDS want to achieve with them?"  And then

 7     you dealt with the bridegrooms, the killing of the Serb wedding.  And you

 8     said:  "Quite a few municipal leaders from the SDS demanded that

 9     something be done in protest since they knew the perpetrator had been

10     identified but not arrested.  Had Delalic then been arrested, even if he

11     stayed in prison for just ten days, tensions would have calmed down.

12     Then the people on their initiative took out to the streets and erected

13     barricades.  In order to avoid chaos and as a sign of our Serbian

14     strength, Rajko Djukic headed the committee for the organisation of

15     barricades.  I do not wish to hide anything, Dragan Kijac, Mico Stanisic,

16     myself, and some others from the MUP took part in this, and we organised

17     everything so as to avoid blood shed and show the public and Izetbegovic

18     that they could not act like that."

19             Now, was that correct?

20        A.   Well, Ms. Korner, this is what I said in this trial, we organised

21     and supervised the check-points in order to avoid bloodshed.  It was not

22     us who erected the barricades.  What it says here is that the municipal

23     leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party took to the streets on their own

24     initiative.  Not only I, Stanisic, and the rest controlled these people,

25     as did everybody in the Ministry of the Interior.  We wanted to stop the

Page 9808

 1     bloodshed.  Of course you couldn't expect the Muslim police officers to

 2     go to the barricades and try to calm the tensions and the people, and not

 3     a single incident happened within the span of 48 hours thanks to the

 4     Serbian part of the police in the joint MUP.  We didn't organise the

 5     barricades.  I and the other Serbs instead took care that no incidents

 6     took place in the MUP.  Whereas, the ordinary people took to the streets

 7     on their own initiative.  This is what you read.  Although I don't

 8     remember every detail.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry, Rajko Djukic headed the committee for the organisation

10     of the barricades?

11        A.   That's correct, since the political leadership of the SDS was

12     abroad.  The remaining representatives of the people in Bosnia, Rajko

13     Djukic, and Muhamed Cengic, the vice-prime minister, organised this and

14     tried to overcome the situation in a calm way, and in that they were held

15     by the Serbian police officers.  As I said, you can't expect Muslim

16     police officers to go to the barricades.  That would result in bloodshed.

17     It was not us who organised the barricades.  We took care and we made

18     effort to avoid bloodshed, and this is what I said before this Trial

19     Chamber.  It is true that Muhamed Cengic and the vice-prime minister and

20     Rajko Djukic negotiated about the ways of overcoming the situation.

21        Q.   And in the same interview, you dealt with, didn't you, what had

22     happened at the school at Vraca?  We can show it to you, if you like,

23     Mr. Mandic.

24             MS. KORNER:  Page 5 in English.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary, just ask me a

Page 9809

 1     question.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Well, what you saw -- what you said there about this was that

 4     there was mistrust within the special unit, a difference of opinion

 5     between the special unit members of Serbian nationality and the others.

 6     You then discussed the split of the building.

 7             "That's what we agreed on.  I invited Karisik and 35 special unit

 8     members on Saturday, the 5th of April to enter the building.  They had

 9     barricaded the school, arrested my brother, along with two or three men.

10     170 men had come to Croatia for a training course.  We knew about it, but

11     we decided to go to the school -- into the school nevertheless.  If the

12     members" -- over the page, please.  "If the unit had not gone in, we

13     would have been driven out of Sarajevo.  We would have lost both legality

14     and legitimacy?"

15             It was for that matter, wasn't it, Mr. Mandic, one of the matters

16     that you stood trial at the state court, of which charge you were

17     acquitted?

18        A.   Yes, the Vraca, yes, that's true.

19        Q.   And it was -- I think I'll leave it at that.  Thank you very

20     much.

21             Now, I've nearly completed what I want to ask you about,

22     Mr. Mandic, but you say that the paramilitaries, and you've been shown

23     the speech made by Plavsic, were entirely the fault, really, of Biljana

24     Plavsic for bringing in Arkan?

25        A.   No, no, no.  I don't think it was her fault solely.  But it was

Page 9810

 1     her who invited these paramilitary formations to come over, and she said

 2     at the Assembly meeting that she had sent a letter to various addresses

 3     to Serb patriots inviting them including Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, who

 4     was a leader of the White Eagles, and I don't know which other

 5     paramilitary formation, to come over whilst Mico Stanisic put them to

 6     prison.  There were Yellow Wasps and others, and she felt offended by

 7     that.  That was a conflict between the chief of police and a member of

 8     the Presidency, and it culminated at this Assembly session.  And, you

 9     know, just one sentence more and then you can proceed.  You know what

10     Biljana Plavsic said and I quote, that:  "It will take 6 million Serbs to

11     die for another 6 million of Serbs to live in freedom."

12        Q.   You've said that before.  Did Biljana Plavsic ever accuse you and

13     Mico Stanisic of involvement or knowledge of a man called Batko who was

14     operating in the Grabovica area?

15        A.   Not me.  I don't know.

16        Q.   Have you read her book?

17        A.   No.  No, I wouldn't do that.  Let me tell you, Ms. Korner,

18     Biljana Plavsic accused me of a variety of things.  Some that were

19     appropriate and some that were completely inappropriate, and she did this

20     not only to me but to other people that she disliked for various reasons,

21     and all those things were untrue, and I don't have any intention of

22     reading the book written by Biljana Plavsic.

23        Q.   So there was never an incident where she came in, you two were

24     with Dr. Karadzic, you and Mr. Stanisic, and she accused you of allowing

25     a paramilitary called Batko to commit killings in Sarajevo in Grabovica?

Page 9811

 1        A.   We were just talking about her bringing in the major -- the

 2     paramilitary formations and about Stanisic putting them into prison.  If

 3     she did that, that would make us her opponents.  She cannot accuse us of

 4     the same thing that she did.  She should make up her mind.  I don't know

 5     what you are talking exactly.  You are talking about some paramilitary

 6     formations.  This woman was very personal, but I don't want to discuss

 7     this.

 8        Q.   Right.  I'm not going to discuss it further, given your answer,

 9     Mr. Mandic.  I just want to ask you this:  You talked about the Yellow

10     Wasps.  Did you ever attend a meeting in Sekovici, which is I think in

11     Zvornik municipality, together with Mico Stanisic where the

12     paramilitaries who were in Zvornik came up for discussion?

13        A.   No, I don't remember.  Sekovici is a separate municipality.  It's

14     not part of Zvornik.

15        Q.   Right.  It's next to Zvornik then, is it, or near Zvornik?

16        A.   Yes, between Vlasenica and Zvornik.  I don't know, I don't

17     remember.

18        Q.   Did you know somebody called Jovo Mijatovic?

19        A.   Jovo Mijatovic, no, I don't recall.  And who was he, what was his

20     position?  Can you please help me refresh my memory.

21        Q.   If you say you don't know him, then -- I think he was the SJB in

22     Zvornik.  Ring any bells with you?

23        A.   No.  Mr. Spasovic was chief of police in Zvornik.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  I must say that I don't recall Mr. Jovo Mijatovic

25     being --

Page 9812

 1             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, I'm just - I'm correcting myself on this.

 2        Q.   In any event, the point that I want to make is this:  Were you

 3     ever before you moved on to be minister of justice at any meetings where

 4     the problems in Zvornik of the paramilitaries were raised with you and

 5     Mr. Stanisic?

 6        A.   No, I don't remember ever being in Zvornik to attend a meeting.

 7        Q.   Were you aware at any stage from any information you received

 8     from Mr. Stanisic or anyone else that arms were being given to members of

 9     the Yellow Wasps by the SJB in Pale?

10        A.   Which period are we talking about, Ms. Korner?

11        Q.   In July of 1992.

12        A.   No, no, no.  On what basis?  On what grounds?

13        Q.   I'm just asking if Mr. Stanisic ever said to you that there was a

14     report that the Yellow Wasps had been supplied with arms by the SJB?

15        A.   No, no, I don't remember that.

16        Q.   I correct myself.  Mr. Mijatovic was the head of the SDS, not the

17     SJB chief.  Does that ring any bells with you now?

18        A.   No, I don't remember that man at all.  I don't know who he is.

19     That was 18 years ago.  Whether he was an MP or was he simply the mayor.

20     He probably must have been someone totally unimportant.

21        Q.   All right.  And, finally, Mr. Mandic, on this, you talked

22     about -- at length about Mr. Zepinic and the manner of his resignation

23     and who was there.  And you say that his resignation had nothing to do

24     with his opposition to the split in the MUP?

25        A.   He took part in this meeting when the special unit was divided.

Page 9813

 1     That's what Zepinic told me.  He was part of that.

 2        Q.   So as far as you say, he agreed to this?  He agreed to the

 3     division?

 4        A.   Well, at the time he was an unfortunate man who didn't know what

 5     to do.  We all knew what he had done, and on the other hand, he couldn't

 6     do anything out of his own volition.  He didn't have his own will at all.

 7        Q.   Please, Mr. Mandic, concentrate on the question.  Is it your

 8     assertion, I just want to make sure we all understand this, that he

 9     agreed to the division of the special unit and of the MUP generally?

10        A.   I claim that he agreed to the division of the special unit and

11     that he voluntarily accepted to be the first minister of the police in

12     December 1991 and member of the Security Council.  If he didn't agree

13     with that, why didn't he resign in January 1992?

14        Q.   Mr. Mandic, please, I'm asking you, you told us you were present

15     at this meeting.  Please, first, is it your contention, it is your

16     evidence, as you said to Mr. Zecevic and others, that he agreed to the

17     split in the Special Police?

18        A.   Well, he went there in order to split it pursuant to an order of

19     Delimustafic, the minister of police.

20        Q.   Right.  And he did not oppose the split in the MUP, is that what

21     you are saying, please, Mr. Mandic?  Yes or no.  It's is a simple

22     question.

23        A.   No, no, he wasn't opposed to that.

24        Q.   So what went on the argument at the meeting before he put his

25     resignation letter in had nothing to do with the split of the MUP?

Page 9814

 1        A.   It had to do only with Vitomir Zepinic.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, I want you, if you would be kind enough to watch

 3     this time so there's no discussion about what you may or may not have

 4     said, part of an interview that you gave to television in 1994.

 5             MS. KORNER:  And the number of that is 1318.15.  And it's part of

 6     the 92 ter package.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can we stop.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the interpreters have the indication of

10     where this part begins, please.  Thank you.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes, it starts at 036.40 in the transcript in

12     English at page 6.  I think we need to go back.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There were great interruptions of

15     relations among people.  You know, we are, and I consider myself like

16     that too, children of the system, who were learning about the brotherhood

17     and unity and life together since we were seven years old.  I must say

18     that at the time, special unit was used to carry out searches in Serbian

19     villages, Serbian houses, Serbian settlements.  I remember well, they

20     were in Pofalici, in that house from here, to search for weapons.  They

21     also went to Bileca and Gacko, and that provoked great negative reaction

22     by all of us, officials of Serbian nationality in MUP, as well as Serbian

23     people.  I couldn't watch anymore that my Karisik, and other members of

24     Special Forces go and search Serbian houses.  We demanded ... we insisted

25     several times ... there was one meeting that Jusuf Pusina, Bruno Stojic

Page 9815

 1     and me, participated in.  It lasted for six hours and we had it with

 2     members of special unit.  I must say that Drazen Vikic, commander of

 3     special unit, for whom I must say he is a very correct person, expert and

 4     professional ... he even demanded that there is an order, signed by three

 5     parties, in order to put special unit in movement.  That means the right

 6     of veto, meaning consensus that, if the special unit is sent somewhere,

 7     it can't do anything without the agreement of all three officials of the

 8     three nationalities.  That was Bruno Stojic at that moment, Jusuf Pusina

 9     and me, as the chiefs of administration.  I remember well that, after

10     that big, tiring meeting, Jusuf Pusina told me: 'There's nowhere to go

11     ... Mandic, you succeeded in dividing the MUP, there is no more unified

12     MUP.'  Because, that was in fact the way it was.  If Jusuf Pusina, as the

13     head of police, I mean that department, can't put special unit in motion,

14     meaning Delimustafic, that means that unified MUP doesn't exist anymore.

15     And somehow, we carried it out.  Unfortunately, however, Vito Zepinic,

16     meaning Alija Delimustafic, used all methods and lobbying people, called

17     on our best special unit members, Miodrag Repija, Maric, and Jevtic, I

18     believe, those are our best men, and promised them apartments, this and

19     that, and it came to slight dilemma in the psychic of those people.  You

20     know, it is very hard to leave the system of one country.  But, at that

21     moment, Milenko Karisik played a very important role, because he notified

22     me, the presidents Krajisnik and Karadzic, and with the great wisdom of

23     Krajisnik, we called Vito back to the Presidency, I mean, Assembly.  We

24     took the special unit out, Karisik took them to Blazuj, and it came to

25     significant division of special unit, and it is often that after the

Page 9816

 1     division of special unit everything else divides too."

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, how much time do you need?  I have a

 3     few questions to put to the witness as well.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour -- the transcript is in anyhow.  Your

 5     Honour, I can stop now.

 6        Q.   Mr. Mandic, what you said there, in fact, is not what you told

 7     the Court, is it?  It was clear, wasn't it, that there was no agreement

 8     and you were being accused of being responsible for the split in the MUP?

 9        A.   Ms. Korner, what you heard me say now is the truth.  This is the

10     confirmation that a three-party meeting took place and -- that a

11     tripartite meeting took place and the executives talked about the special

12     unit.  I did somehow attribute in this interview more importance to

13     myself than was due credit to me, but the fact is that the special unit

14     was separated based on a political decision, and this is what I spoke

15     about in this interview and that was also confirmed in my trial by

16     Delimustafic.

17        Q.   But what you say here -- leave aside your trial and what may or

18     may not have been said by Mr. Delimustafic for whatever reason, but what

19     you say here was, isn't it clearly, is that Mr. Zepinic was opposed to

20     all of this?

21        A.   That's not true.  This was an interview, and I tried to

22     over-emphasise my role.  That is what I wanted to do, to over-emphasise

23     my role in the whole affair.  What I'm telling you today is the truth.

24        Q.   And the same interview, and we haven't got time to play it, you

25     gave also yourself a full account of what happened at Vraca, didn't you?

Page 9817

 1     Which can be seen further on in the transcript.

 2        A.   That was a version to be presented to the press and to the

 3     public.  That is how I thought at the moment.

 4        Q.   When you say it was a version, do you mean you weren't telling

 5     the truth?

 6        A.   No, these were my thoughts about everything that was happening at

 7     the time.

 8        Q.   All right.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes, well, thank you, Mr. Mandic.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Mandic, I realise that you must be confused

12     and tired by being pulled around, but I hope you can maintain your

13     concentration for another seven minutes before we adjourn.

14             I have three small questions to you.  The first is in relation to

15     the intercept that Mr. Krgovic showed to you where you spoke with Branko

16     Kvesic, and about you --

17             MS. KORNER:  I showed it to him, Your Honours.  Mr. Krgovic

18     showed him the Grahovac one, I showed him the Kvesic one.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise.  Ms. Korner showed you that

20     intercept.  And what struck me when I was reading through it, was the

21     fact that here you have Kvesic asking you for assistance to help out a

22     few Serbs who, for some reason, had been maintained in Manjaca; do you

23     recall that?

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour.  Branko Kvesic was in Mostar, and I was the

25     only one whom he knew.

Page 9818

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But my question would be, if these camps were

 2     under the jurisdiction of the army, why wouldn't he call the minister of

 3     defence, and why did you agree to help him out rather than just referring

 4     him to the competent authority?

 5        A.   Branko Kvesic worked in the police alongside with me, and I was

 6     the only one he knew among the people he believed could help him.  Of

 7     course, I didn't refuse my friend this help that he was looking for.  Of

 8     course I went to inquire about these people.  It is only natural the

 9     minister of defence didn't know who he was and he would be reluctant to

10     communicate with him at all.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  My next question to you relates to

12     the information that you gave us a couple of days ago, I think, now,

13     about the jurisdiction of the military courts as opposed to the

14     jurisdiction of the civilian courts over crimes committed in the

15     Republika Srpska in the summer of 1992.  And the evidence you gave was

16     that the military courts had total jurisdiction over all of these camps

17     and indeed over all of the offences that could somehow be related to the

18     conflict.  You also said that in that same period because of the fact

19     that the military court had taken over virtually everything, the civilian

20     courts had very little to do.  I think you told us that in one of the

21     municipalities, only two cases were heard in eight months by the civilian

22     courts.

23             My question to you now in relation to this information is.

24        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  How long did that situation last really, because

Page 9819

 1     I think we have evidence, either by yourself, I can't remember, or by

 2     someone else, to suggest that at a certain point some of the jurisdiction

 3     was handed back to the civilian court in order to help out the situation

 4     of an overloaded military judiciary, while the civilian judiciary had

 5     nothing to do, so at one point there was a transfer of cases or another

 6     distribution of the crimes that were heard by the courts.

 7             So, first of all, is it correct that at some point the many cases

 8     or some of the cases were transferred from the military courts to the

 9     civilian courts, and secondly, when did that happen, if it happened?

10        A.   Your Honours, the jurisdiction of the military court was never

11     transferred to the civilian courts.  Although, only a month after my

12     appointment to the ministerial position, first in June, then in August, I

13     asked for that to happen.  However, the ultimate refusal to transfer

14     jurisdiction from the military courts to the civilian courts happened at

15     the Assembly meeting when General Gver o said that that would be

16     unconstitutional.  And in September I resigned as the minister of justice

17     and one of the reasons was precisely that, meaning that the civilian

18     judiciary was unable to perform its duties, whereas the military

19     judiciary didn't do their job.

20             So the army never allowed any transfer of competencies from the

21     military judiciary to the civilian one, although, I insisted on it a

22     number of times.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  My last question relates to the

24     scenarios that you had described throughout your testimony here before

25     us.  Namely, that there was disagreement between the Presidency and at

Page 9820

 1     least some members of the government about how to deal with the war

 2     crimes and crimes against humanity.  I'm particularly here referring to

 3     the crimes that were committed in the camps.  I'm referring to these

 4     camps because at several other trials before this Tribunal, the fact has

 5     been established that crimes were consistently committed throughout 1992,

 6     and this Chamber has taken judicial notice of those -- of the facts that

 7     those crimes were committed in the camps.

 8             So my question to you now is, what you considered to do at the

 9     time when you were given information that these things happened, you took

10     measures to try and stop them, and these measures failed.  What did you

11     think yourself actually about whether or not you wanted to be a part of

12     this?  I realised you resigned as a minister in September, but did you

13     discuss this with the others?

14        A.   Your Honour, in the summer of 1992 we began receiving information

15     from the field about the camps and inhumane treatment inside those camps

16     concerning civilian non-Serb population.  I testified here before saying

17     that there were commissions formed immediately on the request of the

18     government which toured throughout Republika Srpska in an attempt to

19     ascertain what was indeed happening.  And they proposed measures in that

20     regard.  Those measures were forwarded to the Supreme Command of the

21     army, to the Presidency, to the Assembly speaker, and the prime minister.

22     I think those documents make part of this case file as well.  The

23     Ministry of Justice as a civilian body we could only propose measures.

24     In a state of an imminent threat of war, one could not meddle with the

25     competencies of the army, which I assert, was the sole body responsible

Page 9821

 1     for the camps where non-Serbs were detained, whether civilians or

 2     military conscripts and able-bodied men.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What was the -- I realise we have to stop now, so

 4     maybe I should just leave it at that then.  Thank you for your testimony.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic, for your attendance over the

 6     past week and your assistance to this Tribunal.  You are now released as

 7     a witness, and we wish you a safe journey back to your home, and more

 8     especially, we trust that there's no repeat of the unfortunate incident

 9     that affected your travel to the Tribunal.

10             We now take the adjournment until 9.00 on Monday morning in this

11     courtroom where we are scheduled to reconvene.  I wish everyone a safe

12     weekend.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.

16                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of May,

17                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.