100616ED

Page 11834

1 bear in mind for the future.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the reason we've been producing all

3 these maps, even though we've got adjudicated facts, is, although we all

4 say the majority is Serb in the adjudicated fact, as indeed, I think, for

5 most municipalities, it is going to become important in, I think, all

6 municipalities that some of the areas had Muslim villages or the like,

7 and that is shown on these maps which doesn't appear from the adjudicated

8 fact. So that's at reason I'm asking for each of these maps.

9 And, indeed, it's one of the things that has gone to the back of

10 our minds. But, Your Honours, we will provide, as I say, a booklet of

11 all of these maps for Your Honours.

12 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Please proceed.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

14 Could I have up, please, on the screens, 65 ter 3419.30.

15 It needs to be turned the other way around. Yup. Thank you.

16 Q. Sir, could you indicate - and you're able to draw on the screen -

17 the SJB in Pale?

18 The usher will give you -- oh, you've got something there.

19 No, maybe the usher is going give you a pen.

20 Just indicate it with an arrow.

21 The usher will give you a pen.

22 A. I think it's this building here.

23 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... sorry, sir. You -- have you

24 marked anything? I don't think you have. I don't think you've been

25 given a pen to mark.

Page 11835

1 I'm told you can't mark it because we have a defective pen.

2 All right. Perhaps I can deal with it this way. We can see in

3 the middle of the picture a building with a red roof, a very bright red

4 roof. These photographs were taken last year. Can you tell us what the

5 building with the bright red roof is?

6 A. That's here, where you can see some kind of opening in the middle

7 of the building. In front of it we can see a building with a blue roof.

8 I think -- that's a bakery. At least it was during the war. And then

9 under that we see residential building. So, yes, that's the building.

10 Q. Thank you. There's some confusion.

11 I think you're indicating and will do when you get the working

12 pen that it's the building behind the red -- the really bright red roof

13 building, the one where we can see with a hole in the middle of it - a

14 gap in the middle of it, as opposed to a hole - is that right?

15 A. Yes, yes, yes. That building.

16 Q. And do you happen to know or remember what the building --

17 buildings with the really disgustingly bright red roof is?

18 [Microphone not activated] ... if not, don't guess.

19 A. Could you repeat your question, please?

20 Q. Don't worry. That's all I want.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think it's fairly clear, even though

22 it's not marked, what he's indicating is the SJB. So could I ask that

23 that photograph be admitted and marked.

24 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

Page 11836

1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1450, Your Honours.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, for the next document, can I ask that

3 it not go up on the screen for -- for the public. It's document 0 --

4 65 ter 2449. And it's at tab 53 of the documents. And there's an

5 English translation. Yes. All right.

6 Q. Sir, is that a plan that you -- that you prepared of the

7 Pale Police Station?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. KORNER: We can't see the -- we need to -- if we could have

10 the second page -- well, it's all on one page on mine, but we only seem

11 to have part of the English translation.

12 Go -- yeah, go to the -- no, I don't know what you're showing

13 there. No. It should have numbers. It's on the right-hand side of it.

14 Can we go to the -- all right. I -- it may become relevant and it may

15 not. That's -- that's yours --

16 Can -- Your Honours, can that be marked and admitted, under seal.

17 JUDGE HALL: Admitted --

18 MS. KORNER: Admitted and marked, under seal.

19 [Trial Chamber confer]

20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked, under seal.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1451, under seal, Your Honours.

22 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

23 Q. All right. And, sir, I should have asked you this before. I

24 think you were interviewed way back in 2005 by investigators from the

25 Office of the Prosecutor, and the evidence that you're giving here today

Page 11837

1 arises from what you told the investigators then; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And had you a -- you had an opportunity to read through that

4 interview yesterday, and are you satisfied that, with one exception,

5 which we'll come to, what you said there you do not wish to alter?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, I was asking you about the split in the MUP. And I want you

8 to have a look, please, at a document.

9 MS. KORNER: Which is 3 -- 65 ter 39 -- no, I'm sorry, it's

10 already an exhibit. P650. And it's at tab 2C. And can we go, please,

11 to the second page in both B/C/S and English.

12 Q. Now, were you aware of the events which are described here, which

13 apparently took place in March, so before the formal separation of the

14 two MUPs? And the incident described in this, effectively, complaint

15 made by Muslim officers who had been removed from Pale and Sokolac

16 Public Security Stations, in particular, that Malko Koroman, the chief,

17 had informed the Muslim officers - and this is in the second paragraph -

18 that there had been a decision by the Crisis Staff of Pale that all

19 policemen of Muslim nationality must hand in their weapons and equipment.

20 And he explained this was a counter-measure against the move made by the

21 Stari Grad Public Security Station.

22 So did you hear about this incident which involved the chief,

23 Mr. Koroman, and the dismissal of the Muslim officers?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can I ask you, next, about Mr. Koroman, who, it looks like, was

Page 11838

1 also appointed on the 1st of April. And I needn't bother show you

2 the document by Mico Stanisic.

3 Had he been head before the split in the MUP of the SJB in Pale?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was he a career police officer, or had he done something else

6 before being appointed?

7 A. He was not a career police officer, no.

8 Q. Was he appointed during the course of 1991?

9 A. Yes. On the same day, we were received by the secretary of the

10 city SUP. That's when I saw him for the first time. And on that day, we

11 were both assigned to work in Pale.

12 Q. What had he done before he was appointed?

13 A. I don't understand your question. What did you mean when you

14 asked what he did before? Did you mean what his job was?

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Job. I did.

16 A. As far as I know, he was a bank employee in Sarajevo. He has a

17 degree in political sciences, where he majored with a defence studies or

18 defence preparation studies, and I believe that in the bank he was in

19 charge of putting things in place for the defence; something to that

20 effect.

21 Q. How do -- did you understand how he came to be appointed chief?

22 A. I didn't know how that transpired, but I suppose that he was

23 delegated by the SDS party.

24 Q. And why do you suppose that?

25 A. Because at the time, no appointment could be carried out without

Page 11840

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

3 MS. KORNER:

4 Q. That shows that in April of 1992 there were some 29 police --

5 sorry, 39, because they go over to the next page, members of the MUP in

6 April. I want to ask you about some of them.

7 First of all, could you tell us about Mr. Furtula, the deputy

8 commander. What sort of police officer was he?

9 A. Milomir is his name. Mr. Furtula was a good policeman, very

10 conscientious, of high integrity, very well read, very literate, and

11 that's why he remained working in the station. I don't know if he had

12 any problems; he probably didn't because he was very good at what he did.

13 If he hadn't been good, he would not have been kept on. He was good. He

14 did everything that was necessary in terms of the paperwork, the

15 administration. He was a true professional.

16 Q. All right. Next, can I ask you about number 3, Jovan Skobo. Can

17 you describe him, please?

18 A. Jovan Skobo was a traffic policeman in Sarajevo first, and then

19 he was transferred to Pale. I didn't know him before I came to Pale

20 myself. I can see here that at the time he was an assistant commander.

21 Soon thereafter, perhaps in May, he was appointed commander. I'm not

22 sure about the time-frame. I had a lot of negative experiences with that

23 guy, Skobo. I didn't think much of him. I thought he was a bad man.

24 That's as much as I can tell.

25 Q. Did he have any affiliation with any political party, as far as

Page 11841

1 you knew?

2 A. I'm not sure. However, judging from my experience, from the time

3 that I spent there, I would say that he belonged to the circles moving

4 around Mr. Krajisnik, that he was on very good terms with those people.

5 Q. You've described him as a bad man. In what way?

6 A. You know what? His attitude towards the Serbs was very arrogant.

7 He was very arrogant too. He was not a professional in dealing with the

8 Serbs. For example, in my case, and then in the case of a policeman whom

9 he arrested, tied him against the radiator, and kept him there without

10 any reason whatsoever. And he didn't even have the right to deprive him

11 of his freedom. And he kept him there for three days. What else can one

12 say about a man like that, if you know all those things? That person

13 whom he arrested and he wanted to charge with some crimes or something,

14 that policeman was never found guilty of any crimes, so ...

15 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be of -- if I may of assistance. I don't

16 think that his answer was properly recorded. So maybe he -- he should be

17 asked to slowly repeat his answer because he explained this situation in

18 more detail than is entered. Maybe it wasn't clear for the interpreters,

19 but ...

20 MS. KORNER: All right.

21 Q. Sir, can I ask you speak reasonably slowly, because as you know

22 it's being interpreted.

23 You were describing that he was a very -- his attitude towards

24 the Serbs was very arrogant. He was not a professional. And you

25 described about a policeman who was arrested, tied to a radiator,

Page 11842

1 although that doesn't appear on the transcript. That's what I heard you

2 say.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was there something else you wanted to add or did add about it?

5 Mr. Zecevic thinks you said something else.

6 A. Yes. Well, no, actually. That will be all I said.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry, I believe the witness -- because

8 witness doesn't understand that his answer has not been recorded in the

9 transcript. And probably that's why. He was saying about something that

10 this person was taken in custody two times without proper foundation or

11 something along these line.

12 MS. KORNER: All right.

13 Q. And you -- sir, you describe that he arrested somebody who

14 hadn't -- who was never charged with a criminal offence.

15 A. Yes. The man's name was Ivanovic; he was a policeman. And

16 nobody was entitled to place an authorised official under arrest without

17 the consent of the commander of the centre. That person was arrested

18 twice. Nothing was every proven against him. No decision was ever

19 issued to the effect of remanding him in custody. And after the second

20 instance, after the second arrest, he lost his job without any

21 explanation whatsoever.

22 And -- I apologise, and another thing that I would like to say:

23 I heard that vehicles belonging to non-Serbs that had been seized -- it

24 took only the testimony of two witnesses to prove that those vehicles

25 were his ownership, his property. Then he would sell those vehicles

Page 11843

1 and -- and keep the proceeds, which all tells you about the character of

2 that person, about the kind of man he was.

3 Q. All right. You've mentioned non-Serbs and his selling of

4 vehicles belonging to them. Were those non-Serbs who had left Pale?

5 A. Yes, there were such instances. But there were also Serb

6 vehicles that were parked in front of the Serb weekend cottages while

7 their owners remained living in Sarajevo, for example.

8 Q. You've described him as effecting illegal arrest, tying people up

9 to radiators. What his attitude towards the non-Serbs, the Muslims, in

10 particular in Pale?

11 A. I can't tell you. I never had an occasion to witness such

12 instances. If any of those people came to the public station to discuss

13 an issue or to report something, if non-Serbs arrived at the station to

14 issue -- to discuss an issue and if they turned to the police, they did

15 that in a different part. I wasn't there. I --

16 Q. Yes. But you described Mr. Skobo being arrogant with Serbs. Did

17 you never see him at any stage dealing with non-Serbs?

18 A. No, I didn't see that at the public security station. I don't

19 know if any -- anything of the kind happened while he was in the field.

20 I did not have much dealings with him.

21 Q. You say that non-Serbs came -- they came to the SJB, they would

22 come to a different part. Do you mean a different part of the station

23 from where you were based?

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 11847

1 Q. Can you tell her what the name -- tell her -- tell us what the

2 name of this woman was?

3 A. Ana Simic. But she's not on the list that I'm looking at.

4 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... but we'll see

5 her name if we go over the page in number 33 in both English and B/C/S.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Anka. Yes, that's her. I'm sorry.

7 MS. KORNER: Yep.

8 Q. All right. I want to move, now, please, to the question of the

9 moving out from Pale of the non-Serb population.

10 Could have you a look, please, at 2454.

11 MS. KORNER: Which is tab 7.

12 Q. Now, this is a list -- this is apparently a proposal made by the

13 Muslim citizens of Pale. And the date, we can see, on the second page in

14 each, English and in B/C/S, was the 9th of April.

15 MS. KORNER: And can we go back, then, to the first page.

16 Q. The first proposal they wanted was that joint patrols be

17 organised in predominantly Muslim populated settlements, composed of

18 members of the Pale SJB and Muslim citizens.

19 Did that happen? Were there joint patrols?

20 A. I don't think so. I don't remember.

21 Q. And, secondly:

22 "That the public security service, on the territory of the Pale

23 municipality, be carried out exclusively by members of the Pale SJB until

24 the situation in the BH MUP is resolved."

25 And [indiscernible] clear what that means, but were there other

Page 11848

1 people patrolling Pale at that stage or taking part in -- in

2 law-and-order activities?

3 A. With regard to the fact that only Serb policemen had remained in

4 the station at the time this document was drafted, it was only them who

5 patrolled and protected people.

6 Q. Were barricades removed in Pale? That's item number 3.

7 A. I don't remember barricades. I know that there was some

8 check-points at the exit from Pale, but that was 5 or 6 kilometres away.

9 In Pale itself, I don't remember any barricades.

10 Q. All right. It's -- but then number -- item number 10, says that:

11 "Persons and families who do not feel safe on the territory of

12 Pale municipality be allowed to leave the area without hindrance and in

13 an organised manner."

14 MS. KORNER: And then if we go, please, over the page in -- we

15 need to go over the page for that one. And then -- the bit that's added

16 in brackets, over the page in both B/C/S and English.

17 Q. And the reason for that -- that request, made at number 10, is

18 added in brackets:

19 "(Due to reasons such as abuse, unlawful arrests of only Muslims,

20 break-ins into apartments, disarming Muslim police officers, seizing

21 personal weapons with permits, and similar)."

22 Now, you've described about the -- or you've agreed that the

23 description of the removal of the Muslim police officers happened.

24 Were you aware that there were unlawful arrests taking place of

25 Muslims and that apartments were being broken into?

Page 11849

1 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. And I wasn't aware of this request

2 to leave and move to another place. I only saw it here.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

4 A. As for instances of breaking into the apartments, I don't know.

5 But the weekend cottages of people who had their primary residence in

6 Sarajevo, yes, I knew about that. I don't know, however, whether the

7 perpetrators were police officers. Somebody broke into them.

8 Q. So you knew that there were break-ins to the weekend cottages,

9 but the perpetrators or the people who were breaking in were -- were

10 unknown; is that what you're saying?

11 A. Not that they are unknown, but we could -- didn't have access to

12 them because they lived in Sarajevo. So we mostly drafted

13 Official Notes.

14 Q. I'm sorry, I think there may have been a mistranslation there.

15 You knew who owned the apartments, obviously. But are you saying that

16 whoever broke into them were not identified, so that's why you say you

17 can't say whether they were police officers or not?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. The last complaint is the seizing of personal weapons with

20 permits and similar. By the 9th of April, had operations to disarm

21 non-Serbs started?

22 A. I'm not sure it was then. There was disarming, but it seems to

23 me that it was a bit later. Possibly it was at this time, however; I'm

24 not sure. They were called upon to surrender their weapons, and I

25 believe they did. I know that people were coming in to surrender their

Page 11850

1 weapons, but I had nothing to do with that. It was done -- it was done

2 by the police, but not me personally.

3 Q. All right.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, notwithstanding that he hadn't seen

5 the document before, he is obviously familiar with the events, may I ask

6 that it be admitted and marked.

7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1453, Your Honours.

9 MS. KORNER: Can we look, please, very briefly, on the same topic

10 at the next document, which is 2455, 65 ter 2455.

11 Q. This looks like it's a response to that document issued by the --

12 the Muslims of Pale, the proposals made. And the Crisis Staff of the

13 Serbian municipality came to the following conclusions: There is no

14 reason for anybody to move out -- any Muslim to move out; the population

15 will be -- continue to be supplied; and there should be an agreement.

16 Now, can I first ask you this: First, had you ever seen this

17 document before, and was it a public document?

18 A. I have not seen this document, but I think that it was said

19 publicly on television that people should not be afraid, that they could

20 remained where they were. And I believe that that was the information

21 broadcast on TV.

22 Q. [Microphone not activated]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.

24 MS. KORNER: Oh, God.

25 Q. Did you know Mr. Zdravko Cvoro, who apparently was the president

Page 11851

1 of the Crisis Staff?

2 A. Yes, but I didn't know him well.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't know whether Your Honours

4 consider that -- that the fact that this was broadcast on -- on the radio

5 or television would be sufficient. He hasn't seen the document before.

6 But I would ask that it be admitted and marked.

7 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1454, Your Honour.

9 MS. KORNER: Thank you.

10 JUDGE HALL: Which conveniently brings us to the point that we

11 would break.

12 [The witness stands down]

13 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

15 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 MS. KORNER:

18 Q. Sir, I want to move now to the question of detention facilities

19 in Pale.

20 First of all, did you have facilities to detain prisoners within

21 the SJB in Pale?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During this period of 1992, were there prisoners kept in other

24 facilities; and, if so, where?

25 A. Later I found out that at the cinema house, which was close to

Page 11852

1 the police station, some people were detained, although I don't know what

2 the grounds for detention was.

3 Q. And when you say later on you discovered this, how much later?

4 A. I found out about that when a suicide took place, when a barber

5 from Korane, which is a settlement - I don't remember the man's name, but

6 I knew him - when he committed suicide and when we were called to do an

7 on-site investigation. On that occasion, I informed the investigating

8 judge and the prosecutor. It was then that I found out that people were

9 detained in the cinema house. I cannot remember precisely when this

10 incident took place.

11 Q. And you say that -- well, first of all, who was guarding the

12 facility at the cinema house?

13 A. For a while, I believed it was the Territorial Defence that was

14 guarding that facility. Later on, I found out it was the police.

15 Q. And this is one of the corrections that you made to what you

16 originally said in interview.

17 Who told you that it was, in fact, the police who were guarding

18 this facility?

19 A. Mr. Furtula Milomir told me that. I asked him, because I

20 believed it was the Territorial Defence guarding the facility.

21 Q. And he told you it was the police?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. And what sort of people were being detained there

24 in -- in the cinema house?

25 A. I don't know. But I believe that these were non-Serbs.

Page 11853

1 Q. Where you aware of any kind of ill-treatment that was taking

2 place of the non-Serbs who were being detained in this cinema house?

3 A. I don't know what was going on in there. I never went there. I

4 simply don't or didn't know what was going on with the -- with the people

5 there.

6 Q. Who was responsible for making sure that people who were detained

7 by police officers were being detained for proper, lawful reasons, and

8 who were not being ill-treated whilst in detention in? Who was overall

9 responsible for that?

10 A. Well, the chief of the public security station, Mr. Koroman,

11 would be the person most responsible for such type of issues. However,

12 if there was a need to detain anyone, then prior to that the person

13 should be processed in order to determine whether there are grounds for

14 detention.

15 However, I didn't know anything about it. I was never informed

16 by anyone how these people got detained, who detained them, or anything

17 else.

18 Q. Is this, what you call the cinema house, the same as the

19 Dom Kulture?

20 A. No, no, I don't think that was Dom Kulture; that was a place

21 where they were showing movies, earlier. It may have been Dom Kulture at

22 some earlier stage.

23 Q. Apart from that place, were you aware of any other facilities in

24 which non-Serbs were being detained by the police?

25 A. No.

Page 11854

1 Q. Did you personally ever receive any complaints from non-Serbs

2 whom you knew about either their places being robbed or their lawful

3 weapons being taken or being, in any way, assaulted or ill-treated by

4 police officers?

5 A. No one addressed me about that, so that I wouldn't know. Except

6 that on several occasions I had a conversation with a friend of mine who

7 used to work as a doctor in the -- in the health centre. Senaid Dubu

8 [phoen] was his name. And on one occasion he complained, saying that he

9 would have to go to Sarajevo. Prior to that, he had wanted to go to

10 Serbia -- or, rather, Montenegro, because his wife -- or, rather, his

11 wife's mother was originally from Montenegro.

12 I tried to see whether I can arrange something for the departure

13 of this man through Koroman, Malko, although the man didn't have any

14 problems. He still worked at the time in the health centre. However, I

15 didn't meet with any support -- or not that, it's -- it was impossible to

16 do anything about it. He could go to Serbia using his normal ID;

17 however, in the area around Zvornik, there were so-called Yellow Wasps

18 who controlled a portion of the road. Not even the Serbs could pass

19 though. Some of the ministers who tried to go there had problems as

20 well.

21 And on one occasion, as I way saying, this man complained, saying

22 he has to go. And I asked him, How do you dare go to Sarajevo because

23 your guys will kill you now if you're afraid to stay here? And he

24 responded by saying, Well, if I don't leave with this group - because

25 there was a group getting ready to go away - he said, If I don't go with

Page 11855

1 this group, I will be killed before the next group leaves.

2 He didn't tell me about any threats he received -- he had

3 received, but I heard that after Serbian army had some casualties around

4 Han Pijesak and members of the Serb army were from the Pale area, that

5 after that a driver that worked for the health centre came in armed and

6 forced him to get out of the building.

7 That was, I think, in early June or around about that time.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, but there are a couple of interventions

9 in the transcript.

10 41, line 8, I believe the witness said he still worked at the

11 time in the health centre.

12 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

13 MR. ZECEVIC: And --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: In line 18, he -- I don't think it was recorded

16 as -- as he said. But I don't want to mention it. Maybe you would

17 consider that I suggest the answer to the witness. But please clarify

18 that.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes.

20 Q. When this doctor said -- told you that he -- he was going have to

21 leave with this group, because -- did he say to you, as is recorded:

22 "If I don't go with this group, I will be killed before the next

23 group leaves"?

24 Or did he say something different?

25 A. No. What he said was the following:

Page 11856

1 I -- I was afraid for his life, should he go to Sarajevo. And

2 then he responded, If I don't go to Sarajevo now, if I go with the next

3 group, then I'll be certainly killed. And he meant and I meant that he

4 was afraid of the Muslims because he stayed working in the

5 Serb-controlled area. And he was saying basically that he is not trusted

6 either by the Serbs and will not be trusted by the Muslims but that he

7 had to leave.

8 Q. All right. So you're saying that -- that he wasn't afraid -- are

9 you saying he wasn't afraid of what might happen to him from Serbs but

10 was afraid of what might happen to him from the Muslims?

11 A. That -- those were my fears in relation to him. But he said if

12 he would not go with the first group, he would be in more trouble. If he

13 would go with the second group, then the Muslims might detain him, even

14 torture him.

15 Q. I want to ask you, then, please, about something that you didn't

16 know about.

17 Could you have a look, please, in respect of prisoners, at a

18 document which is already exhibited as P179.17.

19 MS. KORNER: Tab 15A.

20 Q. This is a list of people - and you had a chance to look at it

21 yesterday - of, as it's headed, a total of 400 persons who were driven

22 from Bratunac to Pale.

23 Do you remember 400 Muslim prisoners arriving from Bratunac in --

24 in the middle of Pale?

25 A. I saw on one occasion, from the other side of the building where

Page 11857

1 the cinema is located, it's a blind alley, and I saw a big truck that

2 didn't have a tarpaulin on. In that truck, well, it was full of men. I

3 think all of them had their hair cut really short. And that at one point

4 someone told them that they are not supposed to look around, that they

5 should bow their heads. It didn't last long. Very soon, they were

6 driven towards the exit from Pale. I later found out they were sent for

7 exchange. I've seen only one truck, and I don't know whether all these

8 people could have been on that one truck.

9 Q. The person --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MS. KORNER:

12 Q. The person who told them that they're not supposed to look around

13 and should bow their heads, was he is uniform?

14 A. It wasn't anyone from the police. It was someone from the

15 Territorial Defence who was there, because the Territorial Defence

16 escorted them. They even had a vehicle of theirs, people from the Pale

17 Territorial Defence. And they had their uniforms at the time, of course.

18 Q. But it was people from Pale, was it, who were with these

19 prisoners?

20 A. They were escorting them, as far as I know, as far as I've seen.

21 Now, whether there was anyone else - that, I don't know.

22 Q. All right. Next can I ask you, please, to have a look at the

23 document - oh, dear - sorry. Can I just get this ...

24 MS. KORNER: Yes. It's the document 2459, 65 ter, and it's

25 tab 19.

Page 11858

1 Q. These are the minutes of the Assembly, the Municipal Assembly,

2 held on the 18th of June, 1992.

3 MS. KORNER: And if we go to page 3 in English, and it's also the

4 same in B/C/S.

5 Q. There's a paragraph that begins:

6 "Since the public security station was mentioned on several

7 occasions during the discussion and many objections were raised about its

8 work, Chief Malko Koroman asked for the floor."

9 MS. KORNER: I think it's the top of the page in B/C/S, and it's

10 the middle of the English.

11 Q. "He informed the Assembly about the situation in the SJB. Four

12 stations being formed. Three branches; the main one in Pale. And that a

13 hundred men covered the central territory of Pale."

14 And then he went on to say:

15 "... as the operation in Renovica caused a lot of discontent due

16 to the unjustified death of two men."

17 Now, pausing there, sir, you described in some detail - and

18 because of the limited time, I'm not asking you to go through that - that

19 operation. Perhaps I could summarise it. Was this an operation that was

20 conducted in order to disarm the non-Muslim -- the non-Serb population in

21 Renovica which ran into resistance, and two police officers were killed

22 during that operation?

23 A. It's like this: These were non-Serbs, or Muslims, and their

24 lawful weapons were supposed to be seized from them. And, then, in

25 relation to that, allegedly, the chief, Malko Koroman, and the SDA

Page 11859

1 president, Mr. Alija Prazina [phoen], made an arrangement --

2 Q. Sir, I don't want to interrupt you. As I say, if anybody wants

3 to ask you further details -- you've described the operation at length,

4 but I'm more interested in what happened at the Assembly, I'm afraid.

5 So is my summary correct, that you went on this operation, as you

6 say, it was to disarm the Muslims, and in the course of that you ran into

7 resistance and two police officers were killed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. All right.

10 Now, here, at the Assembly, the -- Mr. Koroman is saying that --

11 or he was denying that:

12 "The operation had been carried out at his initiative and claimed

13 that the operation had been carried out in cooperation with the army

14 command, which can be verified."

15 Now are you able to confirm, because you were present during this

16 operation, that there were members of the army present in the disarmament

17 operation?

18 A. No, I don't remember if there was -- that there were any

19 soldiers, apart from a couple of people from the Pale TO.

20 Q. Just very briefly, do you know what happened to the village of

21 Renovica after the two police officers had killed? If you don't, say so.

22 A. As far as I know, on that day, that population withdrew. After

23 we had been attacked, they withdrew toward Gorazde and Foca; those are

24 Muslim-inhibited areas. And they withdrew in that direction.

25 So some villages and hamlets surely were left unpopulated at the

Page 11860

1 time, after withdrawal.

2 Q. Do you know of any attack by armed forces, by Serb armed forces,

3 on Renovica or any of the surrounding hamlets?

4 A. No. I don't know that the Serbs were attacking anybody at the

5 time.

6 Q. All right. Mr. Koroman, at the Assembly, then goes on to say

7 this:

8 "As far as the police going from Pale to Vrace in early May is

9 concerned, the order for this operation came from the minister of the

10 interior which is his right as defined by the Law on Internal Affairs."

11 Can you explain what Mr. Koroman was talking about there?

12 Explain briefly, please.

13 A. I think it was in May. Maybe in early may or thereabouts, but

14 I'm not sure.

15 Anyway, a number of police officers was sent to Vrace. The

16 street was called Ozrenska Street. And they were supposed to prevent

17 Muslim units from taking the secondary school at Vrace, which was held by

18 the Serbs. That was the MUP school.

19 I know that there was some fighting there. I don't know if it

20 was daily though. However, at that time, Mr. Jovan Skobo was wounded and

21 that he was treated at the military medical academy in Belgrade, the VMA.

22 Q. And why was -- why was Mr. Koroman having to explain that it was

23 the minister of the interior who had given that order? What was the

24 complaint?

25 A. Well, I really don't know. I wasn't involved in these

Page 11861

1 discussions. I didn't go -- I don't know when he went to those meetings.

2 And we didn't have meetings at which he would brief us. I'm -- rarely

3 saw him actually.

4 Q. And finally, on this, he -- he is asked by, obviously, a deputy

5 to the Assembly why it was necessary to engage so many members of the MUP

6 at Jahorina. And the chief replied that the number of men engaged in the

7 area was not as large as claimed. That, in fact, there were 40 special

8 police officers in an intervention group and 22 special police officers

9 controlling the road at the place which is shown on the document - which

10 I'm not going attempt to pronounce.

11 Where did this special -- or this intervention group and special

12 police officers, where did they came from?

13 A. I suppose, since the government and all the ministries had their

14 premises at Jahorina at the time, I suppose that these were people from

15 the special unit who secured the ways there to fend off any possible

16 attack or prevent any possible attack on those institutions at Jahorina.

17 Q. I understand that. What I'm asking is, did this intervention

18 group, was that made up of officers from Pale, or was it a completely

19 separate group of special police officers who came from elsewhere?

20 A. I don't know whether they were police officers from Pale helping

21 out. But I'm sure that they were police officers from the special unit.

22 It isn't logical for a government to be put up in a mountainous area out

23 of town and close to the demarcation line without such a unit being

24 present. Whether there were police from Pale there, I don't know.

25 Q. All right.

Page 11862

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may that be admitted and marked,

2 please.

3 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1455.

5 MS. KORNER: Right.

6 Q. Next, could you have a look at the next document, dated the 19th

7 of June, the day after.

8 MS. KORNER: Which is document at tab 20; 2460.

9 Q. This is a Municipal Assembly decision, as I say, the following

10 day, but it arises from it, that session, saying that citizens of Muslim

11 and Croatian ethnicity who wish to change their residence can exercise

12 that right with the agreement of and permission of the Pale Public

13 Security Station.

14 "Changes of residence will be done in an organised manner, and

15 the public security station is hereby put in charge of compiling a list

16 of all persons wishing to change their place of residence, certifying the

17 list in the Pale Municipal Assembly and compiling a list of all property

18 owned by persons wishing to change their place of residence. And the

19 public security station will guarantee safety of passage."

20 Now, it may not have come directly within your competence, but

21 were you aware of Muslims and Croats coming to the police station with a

22 list of their goods and -- in order to move out?

23 A. No, I didn't know that, and I haven't seen this document before I

24 came here.

25 Q. So you were wholly -- sorry.

Page 11863

1 You were wholly unaware of this order by the President of the

2 Pale Municipal Assembly?

3 A. Well, no, but it may have been exhibited in town as a flyer or a

4 poster. But I don't remember seeing it anywhere.

5 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... we can ask

6 another witness to deal with that.

7 Q. Now, I want to deal, please, with the problems that occurred at

8 the Pale Police Station. And the simplest way of dealing with that is to

9 look, please, at your report.

10 MS. KORNER: So, Your Honours, can I ask that -- well, let's put

11 up -- it's not put up on the screen for the public, and it's -- it is

12 document - sorry, I just need to ... - number -- tab 48, and it's 317.

13 Q. And can we identify, sir, that's you're signature that we can

14 see, as compiling this report.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this report that you sent a truthful and accurate summary of

17 what had been happening in the period of this report between the

18 1st of April and December, 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Let go to the first -- sorry, thank you.

21 MS. KORNER: Let's go to the first page in English and in

22 B/C/S -- or second page, rather.

23 Q. It begins by saying that in that period which is covered in this:

24 "The Pale Public Security Station investigation service

25 operatives were engaged in many activities and tasks, which, by their

Page 11864

1 nature, did not fall under their basic job title and scope of work."

2 Can we pause there for a moment.

3 What were those activities and tasks which didn't fall under

4 their -- their -- normally under their title and scope of work?

5 A. Well, let's say, murder. That didn't fall within our purview.

6 And there were many murders at the time. People had to be detained, and

7 we didn't have appropriate facilities. The prosecutor's office never got

8 off the ground, so we had to feed the people, provide for their hygienic

9 needs, et cetera. So that was one reason. But there were several

10 reasons. I'm referring now to the first three months since the outbreak

11 of the conflict.

12 Q. It may that be this will become clear when we go through your

13 report.

14 Paragraph 2:

15 "In this period, the conditions of war and ... poorly organised

16 activities at these levels resulted in the mass occurrence of all types

17 of criminal activities committed by many people and the so-called war

18 profiteers.

19 "Due this, on this territory, we had many cases of motor

20 vehicles stolen from other territories and driven around Pale. Their

21 papers were arranged. Vehicles then taken to Serbia. A large number of

22 forcible entries and robbing of weekend houses from which many things

23 were stolen. Stealing of cattle."

24 Now, it says "by" in the English translation, but I think in the

25 Serbian it should be -- it says "from."

Page 11865

1 Could you just read out, so we get the translation, from the

2 words "the stealing of cattle." Could you read out what it says there.

3 A. "The stealing of cattle from persons of Muslim ethnicity who had

4 fled into the forest or moved to Sarajevo, as well as other criminal

5 offences."

6 Q. Yes, thank you, sir. I think that was a matter when you were

7 asked in interview about this.

8 Then you go on to say:

9 "All municipal departments and everybody else, especially the

10 Pale Public Security Station and its management, were caught off guard by

11 these phenomena. At the time, they did very little for the protection of

12 property. They even participated in the execution of certain crimes

13 because they thought, as they still do today, that they would never be

14 held responsible for criminal activities."

15 So are you referring there to employees, authorised employees, of

16 Pale SJB?

17 A. This certainly refers to a number of them, because it -- this

18 couldn't all have happened without our involvement.

19 The police was the most responsible for the protection of

20 property such as weekend cottages, automobiles, and everything else.

21 But, at the beginning, there were instances of all sorts of activities.

22 Q. Then, continuing in the next paragraph --

23 MS. KORNER: So we need to go into the third page in English. If

24 we stay on the same page in the B/C/S.

25 Q. And you talk about refugees arriving, municipal authorities

Page 11869

1 MS. KORNER: It's page 6 in English; and, in B/C/S, it's on the

2 third page. Third page in B/C/S. Fourth page, sorry. My fault.

3 Q. You mention in the paragraph that begins:

4 "During the report period, the criminal investigation service's

5 operatives performed 66 on-site investigations ... and in the majority of

6 cases, drafted reports or Official Notes. In two cases, however ... on

7 the on-site investigation of forcible entry and theft, Mr. Dumovic failed

8 to write a report and collect the photographic documentation for the

9 murder of Muharem Kujovic and Koviljka Stankovic."

10 Now, Mr. Kujovic, as you go on to talk about it, I think, there

11 was a Muharem Kujovic and was his wife Hasna - we can see further on in

12 the paragraph - also murdered?

13 A. I believe that they were married, that they were a couple.

14 Q. And when we come to the book, we'll see there's no entry in the

15 crime register for this incident. Is that because Mr. Hrsum - that

16 should be -- I think, we saw his name earlier on the list: H-r-s-u-m,

17 not N, as typed up - failed to write the appropriate report for the

18 purposes of the prosecutor?

19 A. In those cases, both an investigating judge and a prosecutor were

20 part of the on-site investigation. A record was compiled and sent to the

21 public security station. However, the officials at the crime department

22 did not compile any official reports about those murders. No photos were

23 taken. No pathology report was ever requested or compiled.

24 So the file was never completed and was never sent to the Sokolac

25 court. And that's why these cases were never recorded in the KU. They

Page 11870

1 couldn't be recorded because they were never finalised.

2 Q. And then you go on in the next paragraph - and I'm not going to

3 go through the whole thing --

4 MS. KORNER: But could we go to the next page in English.

5 Q. You say:

6 "Apart from the above mentioned, the criminal investigation

7 service employees did not carry out any other work and failed to enter

8 a ... number of events into the on-site investigation log-book."

9 And you describe those. And you go on - and I don't propose to

10 read out everything because it will take too long. But the next

11 paragraphs, you describe the stealing of the Golf motor car ...

12 MS. KORNER: Can we go down, please, to the next page in English.

13 At the bottom of the page in English. And I believe it is the next page

14 in B/C/S as well. Top of the -- I'm not sure about that actually.

15 Q. Can you see, there, a paragraph that begins:

16 "In the same vein, Tomo Hrsum interrogated several persons who

17 participated in the crime of forcible entry ..."

18 Does that appear there?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. "... and theft into a shop in Praca."

21 Do you know whether that was -- was Praca an area that contained

22 Muslim shops and houses?

23 A. I believe that there were more Serbs than Muslims. There were

24 Muslims, however. I'm not sure. I would say that the Serbs prevailed.

25 Q. Do you know whether this crime of forcible entry and there was a

Page 11871

1 shop that was owned -- one by -- owned by Serbs or non-Serbs? If you

2 don't, say so.

3 A. I believe that there were more Serbs than Muslims residing in the

4 Praca area.

5 Q. Let's go, then, please, to the next page in English, the

6 paragraph beginning: "In addition to this ..."

7 Because you go on describing the various matters.

8 MS. KORNER: I think it's the same page in B/C/S.

9 Q. "Having named all these police officers who were not performing

10 their jobs, in addition to the above named individuals, probably

11 completed some of their tasks but did not inform me of that. This was

12 their usual practice (maybe even per somebody's instructions) ... these

13 cases were never completed and forwarded to the competent services for

14 further action. I always opposed such working methods, so I would tell

15 them several times to finish a case. They would often take various items

16 and things from the citizens, of which I was not informed ... they did it

17 illegally because nothing was entered into the seized items log-book. On

18 several occasions in their offices, I accidentally saw the seized items

19 and immediately asked where they had come from ..." et cetera.

20 And then you give more descriptions of that.

21 Was that something -- this illegal seizure of property, was that

22 something that was common or rare amongst the -- the officers in your

23 station?

24 A. That was a common occurrence, I would say.

25 MS. KORNER: And then can we go, please, to the paragraph which

Page 11872

1 at the next page in both the English and in B/C/S, beginning:

2 "Also revealing is the example of Veljko Teletina ..."

3 Q. This was a case where Mr. Teletina had been brought in, in

4 connection with a murder of someone called Veselin Sarenac?

5 What ethnicity was Veselin Sarenac?

6 A. Serb.

7 Q. And Mr. Koroman you actually approached, did you, to -- to help

8 you bring in the person who was alleged to have committed the murder,

9 Mr. Teletina; is that right?

10 A. Yes. That was after the murder. Things were not done properly

11 immediately. People were afraid to go there because he was allegedly a

12 dangerous person. And then I approached Koroman and asked him to do

13 something about that, but nothing came out of that until the moment he

14 was brought in during the night and then released again.

15 Q. And then you accused Mr. Koroman, there, of abusing his official

16 authority and, indeed, extending help to an officially prosecuted

17 perpetrator of a crime.

18 MS. KORNER: And can we go to the next page in English, and I

19 believe -- I'm trying -- sorry I'm just trying to find the paragraph.

20 Q. Do you see on the page there:

21 "Negligence and idleness started at this beginning of 1992 ..."

22 Do you see that paragraph? Is that on that page?

23 MR. ZECEVIC: It is page 6, if I may -- if I can be of

24 assistance.

25 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic.

Page 11873

1 Can we go to page 6 in B/C/S.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: 7 of the e-court.

3 MS. KORNER: Oh, 7. All right. Yup.

4 Q. And you say:

5 "I warned Malko Koroman about that on several occasions, asking

6 to tell the people not to behave like that, because I knew they were

7 under his influence, that he spent all his time at work and outside of

8 work with them. Since he never did anything in June, I informed Koroman

9 in writing, asking him to take steps in order to prevent Mr. Kovac,

10 Mr. Hrsum from continually being absent, et cetera, to warn them about

11 idleness and negligence and impossible to working on -- that it was

12 impossible to go on working with people in that manner. And I warned

13 Koroman that if he did not take any steps, I would inform the MUP, but he

14 told me not to do that."

15 Was that an accurate description of -- of what happened?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then a couple more paragraphs in this report.

18 MS. KORNER: Could we go to page 13 in English. And it's page --

19 the ninth page in the B/C/S, I believe. Ninth page; is that it? No --

20 yeah. Just a moment. Just let me check that.

21 Is there a -- is there -- yes. I believe it's -- it's on that

22 page.

23 Q. There's a paragraph that begins:

24 "On the 6th of April, 1992, the criminal investigation service

25 employees took 18 carpets from a group of people travelling from Istanbul

Page 11874

1 to Sarajevo. Mr. Koroman gave four carpets, together with Mr. Juvicic,

2 that gave four carpets to Romanijaprevoz."

3 And then you go on:

4 "However, just before I wrote this report, I found out that

5 Koroman and Skobo divided the kilims amongst themselves."

6 Then you talk in the next paragraph about weapons, and you allege

7 that Malko Koroman distributed the seized weapons to a certain number of

8 people from the service and outside of it.

9 Again, was that, as you understood it, a truthful and accurate

10 description of what had happened?

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, again, if I can be of assistance. I

12 don't think that's the right page, from what you were reading. It's

13 page 8 of the transcript in Serbian.

14 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, that's the one.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. Do you see that paragraph, sir?

18 MS. KORNER: Sorry, I thought I had marked it.

19 Q. That begins: "On the 6th of April ..."

20 A. Yes, yes, I do. Yes, now I can see it.

21 Q. I'm sorry, yes.

22 Were those two paragraphs that you put there accurate?

23 A. They were, yes.

24 Q. All right.

25 MS. KORNER: And, finally, on this report, please, can we go to

Page 11875

1 page 16 in English; and tenth page, I hope, in B/C/S. I hope that's

2 right.

3 Perhaps Mr. Zecevic can help me. I thought I had this marked

4 properly. Does that show the paragraph: "In addition to the above and

5 in spite of having been informed of this ..."?

6 "In addition to the above and in spite of having been informed of

7 this," does that appear on that page?

8 Q. Sir, perhaps can you help.

9 "Have you ever done anything in order to establish Jovan Skobo's

10 disciplinary and criminal responsibility?"

11 Is that on that page? [Microphone not activated]

12 A. I don't see it in front of me. Oh -- at the beginning? The

13 thing at the beginning, perhaps? No, no.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: I think -- I'm sorry, I believe it's page 11.

15 That's the very last paragraph of the document? Is that what you're

16 reading?

17 MS. KORNER: No. No, it's not the last paragraph of the

18 document. I'm reading -- if you look at the English, Mr. Zecevic, you

19 will see:

20 "In addition to the --" it comes after the last long equally --

21 side of the paragraph. It should -- I thought it was on the top, the

22 second paragraph in B/C/S, at the top of page 3588589.

23 Does that begin: "In addition to the above and in spite of

24 having been informed of all this ..."?

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I found it Ms. Korner. It's page 10 of the Serbian

Page 11876

1 version. In e-court, the second paragraph. Page 10.

2 MS. KORNER: I don't see how that can be -- unless there's a

3 very -- a complete difference between the English and the -- yes. That's

4 the bit. Well, that's the bit I was looking at. So why are we doing

5 that? It was there.

6 Q. Right. Do you see that paragraph, sir, after all of that faffing

7 around the place?

8 A. I don't have that.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. The only references to Skobo in front of me is with regard to

11 blank drivers licences, that's all.

12 Q. All right. Does the next paragraph start:

13 "Other organs were sent 86 regular mail items"?

14 A. Yes. I can see that. Yes.

15 Q. Does the paragraph before that not say, in the Serbian language:

16 "In addition to the above and in spite of having been informed

17 of this ..." you're going -- you've gotten -- you've given a long list of

18 Skobo's misdemeanours "... neither the CSB nor the MUP have ever done

19 anything in order to establish Jovan Skobo's disciplinary and criminal

20 responsibility."?

21 A. Yes, I can see that.

22 Q. And was that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The paragraph that follows says:

25 "Other organs were sent 86 regular mail items, and the CSB was

Page 11877

1 sent eight Official Notes, one on-site investigation report, one written

2 statement about the circumstances of war crimes and genocide against the

3 Serbian population ..."

4 Had there been a request for investigation into potential war

5 crimes and genocide against the Serbian population?

6 A. At the time, I used the word "genocide." The word was misplaced

7 because you have to believe me when I tell you that we didn't know what

8 genocide was until recently. But that word did come up in various

9 conversations. What I meant -- what I had in mind were murders, war

10 crimes, but you certainly cannot talk about genocide, can you?

11 Q. Don't worry about -- yes. Don't worry about the technical legal

12 definition of genocide.

13 But what I want to know is: You specifically mentioned that.

14 Had there been a request that you provide information to the CSB about

15 any war crimes, whether called war crimes or genocide, against the Serbs?

16 A. We submitted all our investigation materials, all documents which

17 concerned war crimes, but not only in reference to Serbs but also to

18 other ethnic group. We followed a regular procedure in that respect.

19 But when it came to war crimes, I believe there was a request for those

20 to be well-documented, accompanied by photos ...

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The point is, sir, what you don't mention in this report, war

24 crimes, generally, against whoever, you specifically mention war crimes,

25 leave out genocide, against the Serbian population. And I'm asking you

Page 11878

1 if you can recall whether had you been specifically requested by the CSB

2 in respect of war crimes committed against the Serbian population.

3 If you can't remember whether that was a specific request, then

4 say so.

5 A. No, no. This here applies to some of the villages in the

6 direction of Gorazde, on the border with Pale. Those were Serb hamlets,

7 hamlets inhabited by Serbs. And I remember that in that part a

8 grandfather was killed, together with his 13-year-old grandson. That

9 grandson had his ears, nose, and three fingers on the right hand cut off.

10 There was somebody else there. His mother was also killed, I think. And

11 I believe that that this refers to that incident.

12 But this also applies -- or at least some of it applies to the

13 village of Sainovic, in the same area where some Serbs had been killed,

14 some of them by rifles and others were slaughtered just like in the first

15 case, because that young boy was -- had his throat slit.

16 Those are the cases that are described herein.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... for the last time, I

18 understand that. But were you being specifically requested by the CSB to

19 give them information - that's the question - otherwise why is it --

20 there's no mention of war crimes committed against Muslims or, indeed,

21 Croats for that mention -- for that matter.

22 A. I don't remember whether that was an express request. But I know

23 that those documents were being collected, all those photos were being

24 put together. I don't know why. I suppose that it was some -- to serve

25 some future needs, the purposes of some future trial, should it ever take

Page 11879

1 place.

2 Q. Well, thank you, sir. That's all that I ask about this document.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, may it be admitted and marked, under

4 seal.

5 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked, under seal.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1456, under seal, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE HALL: That's as far as we can go for today.

8 Mr. Witness, we're about to take the adjournment for today. And

9 I'm obliged to point out to you that, having been sworn as a witness, you

10 cannot have any communication with the lawyers from either side until you

11 are released by the Chamber. And should you have any conversations with

12 anybody outside the courtroom, you can't discuss your testimony before

13 the Chamber.

14 So we adjourn, to reconvene in this courtroom, tomorrow morning

15 at 9.00.

16 Thank you.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day

20 of June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.