Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12477

 1                           Thursday, 1 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.13 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             Good morning, everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             After days of sitting in Courtroom III, you tend to forget how

12     intimate this particular courtroom is.

13             May we have the appearances, please.

14             MR. DI FAZIO:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Gramsci Di Fazio,

15     Joanna Korner, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

17     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

18     this morning.  Thank you.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic

20     appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Ms. Korner.

23             MS. KORNER:  I suppose the sight of me here, Your Honours, must

24     have alerted you, if nothing else, to I have a couple of matters to

25     raise, shortly, before the witness comes.

Page 12478

 1             The witness on any showing is to finish today because, as I

 2     understand it, there's only an hour's cross-examination to be engaged in.

 3             Your Honours, can I mention the question of the application that

 4     we've made to call the witnesses in respect of the disallowed or rejected

 5     adjudicated facts because the Defence responded yesterday on the

 6     30th of June and there's just a couple of matters arising from that

 7     response that I wanted to mention.

 8             Your Honours, firstly, they say, in paragraph 5 of the response,

 9     that contrary to the provisions of Rule of 66(A)(ii) and the order

10     pronounced orally by the Trial Chamber on the 11th of June, 2010, the

11     Prosecution still failed to provide full disclosure in relation to any of

12     the proposed witnesses.

13             Now, the first matter, Your Honours, is that you -- your order of

14     the 11th of June was that we should -- which I had here a moment ago,

15     yes.  It's in the transcript at page 11675 at the bottom and going over

16     to the next page:  For these reasons, the Chamber now orders the

17     Prosecution to file an addendum with the summaries of the anticipated

18     evidence of the proposed 57 - we counted some of them twice, so it's 53

19     now - by Wednesday, the 16th of June, and orders the Prosecution to

20     provide status reports on the disclosure of material.

21             And, Your Honours, that we did.

22             So we would respectfully suggest we're not in breach of any

23     orders made by Your Honours.

24             The second matter is that the statement that the Prosecution has

25     still failed to provide full disclosure in relation to any of the

Page 12479

 1     proposed witnesses is also erroneous in that as we said in our motion for

 2     18 -- Your Honours, I need to find that.  Yes.  Your Honours, this is

 3     the -- our filing of the 17th of June to comply with the order.  Under

 4     paragraph 5, Rule 66(A)(ii), disclosure, for each of the 50 witnesses

 5     identified, Prosecution has disclosed the Defence all prior witness

 6     statements and/or testimony found in the Prosecution's internal database.

 7     According to the Prosecution disclosure record, it's disclosed 66(A)(ii)

 8     material for 18 of the proposed witnesses, prior to the commencement of

 9     trial, because they were originally on our list.

10             Your Honours, the reason I'm raising it today is that the

11     Defence, apart from, we say, erroneously suggesting we're in breach of

12     any order made by Your Honours, complain again that we should be doing

13     full searches on all our proposed witnesses now.  Your Honours, as a

14     matter of policy, we do do these full searches, but they involve not only

15     the lawyers in going through a massive material but involve a number of

16     other sections within the OTP doing what are called these full ISU

17     searches.  I think Your Honours have heard the term before.

18             Your Honours, we do say that that is a total waste of resources,

19     and indeed an unnecessary burden on the Defence to receive such material

20     is -- as we may give -- may discover if the -- if Your Honours are not

21     going to allow us to call either all or some of the proposed witnesses.

22     And so, Your Honours, the reason I'm raising it now is we really need to

23     know fairly urgently what is to happen; whether Your Honours think that

24     the Defence suggestions have merit or not, whether we're going to be

25     allowed to call the witnesses or not.  We've got three weeks left before

Page 12480

 1     the break.  And so if Your Honours are going to order us in accordance

 2     with the Defence wishes to do these full searches, well, then -- before

 3     you make any ruling, then we need to know, as usually I suppose, asap.

 4             Your Honours, we would suggest, as I say, that it's a total waste

 5     of resources and is no assistance to the Defence, but we would ask

 6     either, if that is to be the situation, that you make that ruling today

 7     or tomorrow -- or not tomorrow; we're not sitting.  Or, alternatively, we

 8     could have a decision on the witnesses.

 9             So that's the first matter that I want to raise.

10             Your Honours, the second matter is allied, but I don't know if

11     you want to hear from the Defence before I go on to that.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

13             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning.  I'll ask

14     for your indulgence for me to address one preliminary matter and that is

15     that we acknowledge and we empathise with Ms. Korner this morning, and

16     perhaps the proper word is we sympathise with her, given the fact that

17     today's a very special day.  This is the -- this day's the anniversary of

18     the day in which -- on which Ms. Korner came into the world.  And so we

19     understand how big an event it must be and it to be seen and reflected in

20     her submissions.  We will not, however, pursue the point of asking which

21     anniversary it is; after all, we are in open session.  But from our side

22     of the room, we all wish her a very happy birthday.

23             Thank you for your indulgence, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE HALL:  And the Chamber joins in congratulating her on her

25     natal anniversary.

Page 12481

 1             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much to everybody.

 2             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Shared with Canada Day I will add.

 3             On the merits, we say two things in response:  First, it should

 4     not be the Prosecution's internal policy which dictates disclosure and

 5     these matters; it's the law.  And in footnote 6 of our response which you

 6     have already, we cite the decision, the pre-trial decision of the

 7     Pre-Trial Chamber on the 8th of February, 2008, which makes it clear that

 8     we are entitled to full disclosure.

 9             Now, the Prosecution's addendum itself says that we should be

10     wading through other trials to make sure that disclosure is complete.

11     It's too much effort on their part to provide disclosure, and there's a

12     jig-saw or some system of that sort that they rely on.  But we say it's

13     their burden to satisfy you that we have received full disclosure, and

14     their addendum indicates that that has -- burden has not been met.

15             So, therefore, that's one of the reasons that we ask you to -- we

16     urge you to oppose the motion.  We do set out our other reasons as well.

17     But that's all I wish to say in response the disclosure issue.  It's not

18     policy of -- internal policy of the Prosecution which dictates what is

19     full disclosure; it's the law.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. O'Sullivan, I hadn't had the benefit of

22     reading thoroughly your written submission which was filed, I think, only

23     yesterday.  But am I right to understand that the issue that is raised

24     is -- at least one of the issues that are raised, is that reference to

25     the cases to which your team has been given access and where you would be

Page 12482

 1     able to find the statements of the new witnesses that that reference in

 2     your view is insufficient and does not qualify as disclosure according to

 3     Rule 66(A)?

 4             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Thank you.

 5             What we're told is that somewhere in the disclosure to perhaps

 6     four other trials, somewhere in that disclosure, the material exists.

 7     Now, our submission is we shouldn't be expected to have to go wading

 8     through that material to identify it.  And particularly now that we're in

 9     the trial, we're sitting on a regular basis, and it should be for the

10     Prosecution to indicate to us where it is and whether we've received it.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.  I understand.  But, I mean, if you're

12     given the name of the witnesses and the dates of which they testified in

13     those other trials, wouldn't that be sufficient?

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think we're slightly at cross

15     purposes at the moment.  I think we mentioned that.  But my understanding

16     is, and I've just checked that, we've actually physically put onto a disc

17     either the statement or the previous testimony on which we're relying.

18     So we're not saying, Go and look for it.  If you want anything else,

19     we're saying, Go look for it, because you've got it all, or a lot of it.

20     But I just confirmed that.  We've actually physically handed over - not

21     in paper but on disc - statement or transcript on which we've relied for

22     the purposes of this.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  The problem is that the -- the addendum

25     indicates -- seems to indicate -- the Prosecution addendum seems to

Page 12483

 1     indicate that there is more to be done.  That there's more coming our

 2     way.  That there's more information that we have not had made available

 3     to us.  And or response was based on that.  That's our understanding.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Yes, there is.  In a sense that -- Mr. O'Sullivan is

 5     quite right, and that's what we referred to.  We don't simply say, Here's

 6     the statement, here's the previous testimony; we do full searches to see

 7     if they testified somewhere else, if they have made another statement.

 8     The thing that normally causes the problem, which is what we referred to

 9     in our motion, is that this database, which regrettably we gave the name

10     of and has caused must hilarity amongst the Defence, isn't 100 per cent

11     sure.  Sometimes when witnesses have made earlier statements to the

12     Bosnian authorities or to the Serbian authorities, it may not have got

13     into that database, which is why we have to ask for this complete wider

14     search of every possible, conceivable database that's available.  This

15     one contains the -- allegedly all the statements, but experience has

16     shown us that occasionally it doesn't.  So that's why we do the bigger

17     search.

18             But what I'm saying is the Defence are in a position to know now

19     because they have been provided with the statement or the previous

20     testimony of the witness on which we rely to cover the adjudicated fact.

21     And our only caveat, our only problem at the moment, if you like, and I

22     accept entirely that our internal problems are not to concern the Court,

23     but only in so far as if Your Honours don't allow us to call the

24     witnesses, and that's the difference.

25             When we pick our witnesses for the 65 ter, subject to

Page 12484

 1     Your Honour's discretion, of course, we expect to be able to call them.

 2     So, of course, we provide everything; we do all the searches.  Here, we

 3     don't know.

 4             So that's -- that's the reason that I'm saying this.  But, as I

 5     say, it -- it's not right to say that they haven't been given the

 6     statements.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  To the extent that is it necessary for us to give a

 8     formal ruling or response, we will endeavor to do so in advance of --

 9     well, as you point out, we aren't sitting tomorrow, but we would consider

10     what has been said here.  But having heard counsel, it appears that the

11     differences are not as wide as they first appeared.  And it's more a

12     practical matter, working out what is -- what has, practically speaking,

13     if that's not redundant, been disclosed to the Defence without having

14     them to go on an safari to find whatever it is the Prosecution may be

15     interested in.  Thanks.

16             MS. KORNER:  But, Your Honours, it boils down to a very simple,

17     actually, issue, if I can sum it up this way:

18             Are Your Honours going to order us, before making a ruling on

19     which witnesses we can call, to make -- to do all the full searches and

20     produce full disclosure?  It's as simple as that.  And that's -- that's

21     what we'd ask for a ruling on.  Because if Your Honours accede to what

22     the Defence want, then we have to start straight away.

23             Your Honour, the second matter is, I'm afraid, back -- it's

24     allied because it's back to this business of challenging adjudicated

25     facts.  Yesterday, as His Honour Judge Delvoie asked Mr. Zecevic whether

Page 12485

 1     they were challenging the adjudicated fact in relation to a village

 2     called - and I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly - Davob -- I'll ask for

 3     assistance.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Dabovci.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Dabovci.  Thank you.  Thank you very much,

 6     Mr. Zecevic.

 7             Your Honours, we did a research through the -- I'm very grateful

 8     to the intern who did this research actually, as opposed to me, in which

 9     we found ten instances where specific adjudicated facts have been

10     challenged through cross-examination, what's been put to witnesses since

11     the trial began.  And since virtually pre-trial, we have been discussing

12     what happens when the Defence specifically challenge adjudicated facts,

13     or the procedure.  We argued this at some length on the 12th of May as to

14     whether the Defence should be obliged to let us know now which

15     adjudicated facts were the subject of specific challenge to witnesses.

16     And Mr. Zecevic and I discussed the fact that the law says that it's for

17     the Defence to raise the issue through calling reliable -- I've forgotten

18     what the phrase is now - reliable and something-or-other evidence.

19     Sorry, yes, we bring credible evidence - that's the word, thank you - to

20     counter it.

21             We got -- we discussed this in the Pre-Trial Conference, we've

22     discussed this at various stages throughout the case, and Mr. Zecevic

23     and, much earlier on, Mr. Pantelic said we challenge, blanket challenge,

24     every single adjudicated fact.  Mr. Krgovic was rather more

25     circumstance -- and said, no, they would make it clear through

Page 12486

 1     cross-examination.  And by and large that's right, and it's clear, as I

 2     said on the last occasion, that the Defence in fact do not challenge, or

 3     at least as far as one can gather, each and every adjudicated fact.

 4     There are certain specific ones that they challenge.

 5             But, Your Honour, I'm repeating my request that Your Honours make

 6     an order.  We've got something like 27, we worked out, further witnesses

 7     to call, leaving out the other witnesses, to cover the adjudicated facts.

 8     We say -- we will have to apply, because of the ruling in Lukic and

 9     because we've put on notice, to add further witnesses.  For example,

10     Mr. Zecevic challenge's yesterday:  We have a witness, that I personally

11     happen to know about because I called him in Brdjanin, who can deal with

12     that.  We will now have to apply to call him.  But the longer that they

13     leave these challenges, the later our application is to call the

14     witnesses.

15             And so, Your Honour, I'm repeating my request that Your Honours

16     order the Defence by the break - if possible, earlier - but by the break

17     to tell us now, in terms, which adjudicated facts they are going to be

18     putting specific challenges to witnesses about so that we can then apply,

19     I'm afraid, but that's the -- the inevitable consequence, to call the

20     witness who deals with it.

21             Your Honour, I don't want to repeat everything we said on

22     previous occasions, but that's the situation.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I will briefly state that I entirely

25     disagree with the position of Ms. Korner, despite being her birthday and

Page 12487

 1     I join the congratulations.

 2             The fact is, Your Honours, we -- I didn't know that I was going

 3     to challenge that fact with the witness that came yesterday until the day

 4     before yesterday, because in his proofing note or a document, I found

 5     that the -- that the Prosecution asked him about that particular -- that

 6     particular incident or that particular village.  And then he says, My

 7     family comes from that village, and I know it's a Serbian village, it's

 8     not a Muslim village.  Before that point, it never crossed my mind that I

 9     would challenge that fact or that I would have a witness, the credible

10     evidence, with which I will challenge that fact.

11             We have the viva voce witnesses.  The viva voce -- he might have

12     said yesterday -- he comes to the Court, and while taking the general

13     introduction -- during the general introduction he says, I come from the

14     village of Dabovci.  That would be -- that would trigger my interest in

15     challenging that fact because how would I know that?  I don't have the --

16     the opportunity to -- to interview all of them; or, if we do, we

17     concentrate on the most important things.  We don't -- we don't go all

18     around the place and interview witnesses for days and days.

19             Therefore, it is -- it is virtually impossible to -- to accept

20     Ms. Korner's suggestion.

21             Thank you very much.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, without going into the matter, I can

23     tell you that your intern did a good job.  Indeed, there are ten

24     adjudicated facts challenged until now.

25             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much,

Page 12488

 1     Your Honour.  I'll pass on Your Honours' congratulations.

 2             I repeat then.  I'll pass on Your Honours' congratulations.

 3             I don't think there's anything I can add.  I understand the

 4     position where, as Mr. Zecevic says, this was something they didn't

 5     think -- realise, but they must, in other cases - and it's clear in other

 6     cases because they have put specific documents or specific challenges -

 7     know which specific adjudicated facts they are challenging.

 8             You know, I accept, if something comes up, improvise, and you

 9     can't do anything about it.  But if you have a clear instructions, the

10     Defence know which witnesses are still left and what they're going to be

11     challenging, then, Your Honours, I suggest that this is one of the times

12     you really cannot sit on your powder and keep it dry, to mix my metaphors

13     all over the place.

14             Anyhow, Your Honours, I raise that.  I mean, it may be something

15     else that Your Honours might like to think about.  But, Your Honours, can

16     I make it absolutely clear:  It is clear to us now that we will have to

17     apply to call that witness.  So, Your Honours, I don't expect to have

18     complaints from the Defence if we apply only after we know to -- to call

19     witnesses to cover challenged adjudicated facts.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  We'll have to discuss this in some

22     detail among the Judges.  But as far as the question put to us by the

23     Prosecution as to whether we will require the Prosecution, at this point,

24     to start its full investigation, I think that would be a waste of

25     resources.  So we will hand down our decision shortly about which

Page 12489

 1     witnesses to call.  And, as of that moment, you will know which witnesses

 2     to -- to do the continued search on.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, thank you very much, indeed.  I'm very

 4     grateful.  And if Your Honours would excuse me then, before the witness

 5     comes in.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Could you please take the formal declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is off.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, sir.  Could you make the solemn declaration

13     again, please.  There seems to be some slight technical problem.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

15     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  ST-155

17                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

18             JUDGE HALL:  You may be seated.

19             May the witness be handed the pseudonym sheet.

20             If you're satisfied that that -- the contents of that document

21     accurately discloses the particulars about yourself, you may sign it and

22     hand it back to the usher, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's all right.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted under seal and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1487, under seal,

Page 12490

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Again, good morning to you, sir, and we thank you

 3     for coming to assist the Tribunal in your testimony.

 4             The piece of paper that you would have just signed is a part of

 5     the protective measures, -- is a feature of the protective measures which

 6     the Tribunal has granted in your case so that are you testifying under

 7     pseudonym and that your voice and features are distorted so that no one

 8     outside of the courtroom would be made aware of the fact that you have

 9     testified.  That is one of the exceptional measures which the Chamber is

10     authorised to allow in the case of certain witnesses where, for good and

11     valid reasons, the Chamber is satisfied that such protective measures

12     should be allowed.  And it is exceptionally, because ordinarily the

13     proceedings of this Tribunal are held in public in order to -- as a part

14     of the -- as one of the components of a fair hearing to which the accused

15     are entitled, and, beyond the interests of the accused, to satisfy the

16     members of the public, particularly persons resident in the countries

17     with which the proceedings of the Tribunal are concerned of the

18     integrity -- of the proceedings.

19             The pseudonym sheet that you would have signed has indicated your

20     name and date of birth, so I needn't ask you about those.  But I would

21     ask your ethnicity and your profession.

22             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, can I just raise one very

23     brief matter.  Can we deal with the issue of this witness's profession in

24     privates session rather than with the -- the three protective measures.

25     I think that would be safer.  And there's another matter that I want to

Page 12491

 1     raise with you concerning private session with this particular witness.

 2     So I just think, as far as that second aspect of the question, it would

 3     be safer to do that in private.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Well, what I would do, Mr. Di Fazio, is to leave

 5     that part of the question unanswered, and you can open with that when --

 6     when you begin your -- your examination-in-chief.

 7             So would you tell us what your ethnicity is, sir?  You may ignore

 8     the second part of the question I had asked about your profession.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Bosniak.  I'm of Bosniak

10     ethnicity.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Have you testified previously in these proceedings

12     or in proceedings in any of the countries that made up the former

13     Yugoslavia?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified before this Tribunal.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I would -- in that case, I need only remind

16     you of the procedure of the Tribunal in that you have been called as a

17     witness by one side - in this case, the Prosecution - and the other side,

18     counsel for each of the two accused, would have a right to cross-examine

19     you.  And the Defence would -- the Prosecution would have a right to

20     re-examine you, after which the Defence -- the Bench may have questions

21     of you.

22             Your testimony here is expected to be completed within today's

23     sitting, which would end by 1.45.  There are break that the -- that we

24     have during that time to allow for the tapes to be changed and whatnot.

25     The Prosecution has asked for an hour and a half to examine you; counsel

Page 12492

1     for the accused Stanisic, one hour; and counsel for the accused

 2     Zupljanin, 15 minutes.

 3             Coming back to the matter of the breaks that we take, if, for any

 4     reason, you need a break other than that, if you would indicate to the

 5     Chamber, we would accommodate you.

 6             And I would invite Mr. Di Fazio to begin his

 7     examination-in-chief.  And from what he's intimated already, we would

 8     move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

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Page 12493











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Page 12506

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22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE HALL:  So we may as well break now and resume at 11.00.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 12507

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is being escorted in, we would

 5     just say briefly, because we had indicated that we would use the break to

 6     consider the two matters raised by Ms. Korner on behalf of the

 7     Prosecution, that the -- in terms of the first issue, the Chamber has, in

 8     effect, ruled, as articulated by Judge Harhoff this morning.

 9             And in respect of the second matter, the problem about

10     adjudicated facts is going to be an ongoing problem, and we do not

11     appreciate that we can usefully say anything beyond what we would have

12     said previously.  And the -- we're in the process of researching the --

13     of searching the transcript to remind counsel of how we would have spoken

14     to this when it was last raised.

15             Thank you.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:  Do Your Honours want any further submissions on

17     that matter?  Should I speak to Ms. Korner about the matter?  Thank you.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE HALL:  As I recall, Mr. Di Fazio, you had indicated we

20     could move into open session.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             MR. DI FAZIO:  Okay.  Thank you.  Good.

24             Can the witness please be shown 65 ter 3419.42.

25        Q.   Witness, do you recognise that place, that structure?

Page 12508

 1        A.   I recognise it.  It is Planina Kuca in the Semizovac settlement.

 2        Q.   And -- yes, thank you.

 3             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, I tender that image.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1488, Your Honours.

 6             MR. DI FAZIO:  Now could we have 3419.36 on the screen, please.

 7     Yes, thanks.

 8        Q.   Now I'm going to ask to you look at that aerial shot and see if

 9     you can identify Planina Kuca or Planina's house on that particular

10     aerial shot.  And if you can, there's a pen that can you mark the screen.

11             MR. DI FAZIO:  I would be grateful if the usher could oversee

12     that process.  If the witness can just simply circle the screen, if he

13     finds Planjo's house.

14        A.   Yes, of course, this is Planjo's house.  In this settlement.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. DI FAZIO:  If Your Honours please, I tender that photograph.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             MR. DI FAZIO:  And one more aerial photograph --

19             THE REGISTRAR:  I do apologise to the counsel.  This is

20     Exhibit P1489, Your Honours.

21             MR. DI FAZIO:  I apologise to the Court.

22             One more image, please, 65 ter 3419.38.

23             If there's a problem, I can move on.  If not, then ... thank you.

24             Can the witness be shown 65 ter 3419.41.

25        Q.   Okay.  Do you recognise that place?

Page 12509

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   What is it?

 3        A.   This is the restaurant Sonja's Place in Vogosca.

 4        Q.   Is it close to a railway -- is it close to a railway line?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.  It is above the railway line, close to the Vogosca

 6     overpass.

 7        Q.   Did it also have another name, Kontiki [phoen]?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  It was called Kontiki, but it was better known and

 9     more popular as the Sonja's Place.

10             MR. DI FAZIO:  Now, I seek to tender that into evidence, if

11     Your Honours please.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1490, Your Honours.

14             MR. DI FAZIO:

15        Q.   Along that railway line that you're talking about, were there

16     wartime structures at various intervals, built, I think, by the Germans

17     during the Second World War, known as bunkers?

18        A.   Yes, there were such structures.  These were bunkers from the

19     Second World War which had been built by the Wehrmacht soldiers, German

20     soldiers.  And from Ploce to Bosanski Samac there are such bunkers in the

21     intervals at each -- 10 to 15 kilometres.  And they were meant to secure

22     the railway line.

23        Q.   Was there such a bunker close Sonja's place or Kontiki?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  There is one very close to this restaurant.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 12510

 1             MR. DI FAZIO:  Can the witness be shown 65 ter 3419.43.

 2        Q.   Okay.  This is an aerial shot.  Having -- looking at that aerial

 3     shot, can you tell us if Sonja's Place and the bunker are visible.  And

 4     if they, if they are, could you indicate them with two circles around

 5     their structures?

 6        A.   Yes, you can see them.  I can recognise them.

 7        Q.   Can you put a circle around Sonja's place?

 8        A.   It's this.

 9        Q.   And if you can see the bunker, can you indicate where that is?

10        A.   It is this structure.

11        Q.   Okay.  So the small -- the larger circle on that image is Sonja's

12     and the smaller image is the bunker.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  And I tender that image.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1491, Your Honours.

17             MR. DI FAZIO:  Thanks.

18             65 ter 3419.39, please.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             MR. DI FAZIO:  Okay.

21        Q.   Can you indicate, if you can see in that photograph, the SJB

22     building in Vogosca?

23        A.   I can see it, and I can do it.  And the building of the public

24     security station is located in the building of the Municipal Assembly in

25     Vogosca.  And this is the building.  Can I circle it?

Page 12511

 1        Q.   Yes, please.

 2        A.   It's this building over here.  On the right hand is the entrance

 3     to the Municipal Assembly; and on the left side is the entrance to the

 4     public security station.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. DI FAZIO:  And I tender that.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1492, Your Honours.

 9             MR. DI FAZIO:  Your Honours, I think that at this point we should

10     go back into private session, just because of the nature of the questions

11     that I'm going to now ask.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

13             MR. DI FAZIO:  And can we keep that image.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 12512











11 Pages 12512-12550 redacted. Private session.















Page 12551

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16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, we -- as would have been previously

19     indicated to you, we now rise for the day.  And, indeed, this concludes

20     our sittings for the rest of the week.  We would resume in this courtroom

21     on Monday morning -- sorry, in Courtroom III on Monday morning at 9.00.

22     And I'm obliged to point out to you that, having been sworn as a witness,

23     you cannot communicate with counsel from either side; or in -- and in

24     such conversations as you have with persons outside of the courtroom, you

25     cannot discuss your testimony.

Page 12552

 1             So we adjourn until Monday morning, and I wish everyone a safe

 2     weekend.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day

 6                           of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.