Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13098

 1                           Wednesday, 21 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 11.20 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 9             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Belinda Pidwell,

11     Joanna Korner, Nathanael Burris, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing

14     for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

16     David O'Brien, and Mark Iaconelli for Zupljanin Defence.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, before we start, I would like just to

20     address the Trial Chamber on two issues, and I will speak in Serbian in

21     order to be fully and properly understood.

22             [Interpretation] Your Honours, following the instructions issued

23     by the Trial Chamber requesting us to take a position by Friday, this

24     week, with regard to the Prosecution request to introduce

25     General Mladic's journal into evidence in this case, we would like to

Page 13099

 1     inform the Chamber that today we are going to submit our joint motion.

 2     That is the joint motion of the two Defence teams of Stanisic -- teams of

 3     Stanisic and Zupljanin.

 4             What I would like to say at this point which is not mentioned in

 5     our motion is that, at this juncture, the Defence challenges the

 6     authenticity of the journal.  I do allow for a possibility, Your Honours,

 7     that our position regarding this can be altered but only once we have

 8     received the complete set of documents from the Prosecution.  Since, at

 9     this point, we, indeed, have only a few written documents, plus the

10     documents that were submitted and disclosed of late, whereas, the entire

11     video and audio material has still not been disclosed to us by the

12     Prosecution and we know that that has been done in some other cases.

13             Therefore, once we have received this material we shall be able

14     to give our exact position concerning this issue.  This is all I wanted

15     to explain to the Trial Chamber.

16             The second issue, Your Honours, relates to the testimony of

17     Mrs. Ewa Tabeau.  Of course, you are aware that the Defence has expressed

18     their position with regard to her testimony in our motion dated the

19     31st of August, 2009.  Then, in March of this year, 2010, we received an

20     additional report to which we also objected.  There's no ruling

21     concerning on these two motion yet; but, nevertheless, I would like just

22     to briefly express the views of the Defence team of Mr. Stanisic

23     pertaining to this matter.

24             The summary pursuant to 65 ter relating to witness Mrs. Tabeau

25     submitted along with the pre-trial brief of the Prosecution quotes that

Page 13100

 1     Mrs. Tabeau is a demographic expert that was going to testify about the

 2     internally displaced persons and refugees in the territory of

 3     47 municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina of which some are relevant for

 4     this particular indictment.

 5             Our position, Your Honours, is that Mrs. Tabeau's report, both in

 6     the Milosevic and the Krajisnik cases, was by and large not helpful for

 7     the Trial Chamber, nor to the parties in the proceedings either, because

 8     Mrs. Tabeau was unable to provide responses to some of the key issues.

 9     However, despite this position of ours, we agree, in principle, that a

10     demographic expert can discuss issues relating to displaced persons and

11     refugees in view of her specialised expertise.

12             What has arisen as a problem at this point is her supplementary

13     report, in which Mrs. Tabeau is dealing with the victims of war.  That's

14     the report disclosed to us in March of this year.  However, she speaks

15     about the victims and divides them into the civilian and military

16     victims, that is to say, the people who were killed.  That means that

17     Mrs. Tabeau has been tackling now an entirely new topic for which I

18     personally believe that she doesn't have the required qualification and

19     expertise.

20             Secondly, this topic that she is dealing with now had not been

21     announced to us pursuant to 65 ter as an issue that was going to be

22     testified on by this witness, which is completely contrary to the

23     Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  Besides, this report on the victims of

24     war is based, as much as I could gather, on certain databases which are

25     of dubious credibility, or at least any information about this kind of

Page 13101

 1     organisations or databases are something that is totally unknown to us.

 2             Just as an example.  She makes reference to the data provided by

 3     some associations of Muslims against genocide.  Then she refers to the

 4     data relating to the consensus of household in free territories in the

 5     city of Sarajevo in 1994.  And, finally, she refers to a document

 6     entitled "The Book of the Missing," from 1998.

 7             Your Honours, in this case, we still haven't raised the issue,

 8     although we discussed it once a few months ago, of forensics and the --

 9     the mechanisms of causing death of the victims, time of their death and

10     other questions that have to be established in a clear and solid manner.

11     We are dealing here with a criminal procedure, and it is quite clear and

12     everybody knows what the Prosecution must prove in any such proceedings.

13     Our position is that on the basis of the supplementary report, for which

14     Mrs. Tabeau does not have the required qualification and expertise the

15     Prosecution is trying to overcome the problem of proving what is

16     essential in every criminal trial.

17             In addition to that, I have to say, that the supplementary report

18     of Mrs. Tabeau is so difficult for me to understand that I absolutely

19     cannot grasp a large number of sentences, neither in my mother tongue nor

20     in English.  I do concede that this is my personal problem and probably

21     due to my low IQ.  But, at any rate, I believe, Your Honours, that, at

22     this point, the Defence will not be in the position before the

23     Trial Chamber decides whether this supplementary report can be added to

24     the expert report of Mrs. Tabeau as well as of her testimony.  I think

25     that it is inappropriate to call Mrs. Tabeau to testify in-chief because,

Page 13102

 1     at least as far as the Stanisic Defence team is concerned, we must say

 2     that we are not able to follow this testimony in an appropriate way.

 3             I am sorry for being so long.  I thought I could have spent less

 4     time on this, but this is basically what I wanted to say.

 5             Thank you.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

 7             Is there a response from the Prosecution?

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, yes.  I'm just waiting to see if

 9     Mr. Krgovic wants to add anything.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we support whatever

11     Mr. Zecevic says, because this is the joint position of the two Defence

12     teams.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14             MS. KORNER:  At least Mr. Krgovic didn't say his IQ couldn't

15     follow what Mr. Zecevic was saying.

16             Your Honours, firstly can I deal with the question of the Mladic

17     diaries.  Sorry, notebooks properly.

18             Your Honours, we would, therefore, in the light of the Defence

19     indication, although it is somewhat unfortunate that they still haven't

20     really made up their minds as to whether they want to contest the

21     authenticity or not, we would simply ask, as we did in the motion, that

22     we be allowed to add the two witnesses to our 65 ter witness list and we

23     will either tender them under 92 bis or call them hopefully under 92 ter.

24     But that's the situation.

25             As regards the other material, Your Honours, we utterly fail to

Page 13103

 1     see how can this can affect the Defences' position toward the

 2     authenticity of the notebooks.

 3             The other material which we do not propose to use, I hear

 4     Mr. Zecevic saying that they're still waiting for disclosure, I think

 5     that is probably right.  There may have been limited disclosure in some

 6     other cases where the matter is perhaps more urgent.  But the material,

 7     the videos, the SIM cards and the like was being forensically dealt with

 8     and that's why there's been the delay in disclosure.  They've also got to

 9     be downloaded, so it's quite a lengthy procedure.

10             But as I say, we are not proposing -- there's a list being

11     provided to the Defence and to Your Honours with Ms. Gallagher's

12     statement of what the material consists of.  We are not proposing to put

13     it in.  And so, Your Honours, we would simply ask that Your Honours deal

14     now -- I don't know what the motion is that the Defence are filing

15     because they have already responded to our motion to add and indeed I

16     believe Your Honours were going to rule.  We would ask Your Honours

17     merely to make a ruling.  Firstly can we add the diaries and the excerpts

18     therefrom to our 65 ter exhibit list, that's not to say admitted into

19     evidence, and can we also add the witnesses.  And that's all I think we

20     can say on Mladic.

21             Now, as regards Ms. Tabeau, Your Honours clearly ruled last week.

22     You said she was an expert and you said that both reports could be used

23     for the purpose of her testimony.  Mr. Zecevic spent most of the time

24     going behind or attempting to go behind Your Honours ruling, asking

25     effectively Your Honours to reconsider the matter.  And, Your Honours, we

Page 13104

 1     would say that you have considered the matter carefully over a number of

 2     months, have ruled, and therefore Ms. Tabeau is to be treated as an

 3     expert and her reports are admissible.

 4             The final matter he comes to is that, well, if he is wrong on

 5     asking you to reconsider, in any event we shouldn't be allowed to call

 6     her tomorrow because he doesn't understand her evidence.  Well,

 7     Your Honours, that's the whole point of Ms. Tabeau being called.  She is

 8     going to explain in, we anticipate, simple terms that even someone with

 9     Mr. Zecevic's IQ can understand what that evidence is about and how it

10     will assist the Trial Chamber.

11             We have clearly said we do not expect there to be

12     cross-examination.  The Defence will have ample time to consider her

13     evidence and to consider their cross-examination with or without the

14     assistance of their own expert.  But, Your Honours, we do say she -- the

15     Defence have been notified for some time now that she was going to

16     testify in-chief tomorrow.  We have been not using the court time

17     properly over the last few weeks for a number of reasons, one is the

18     inability to get the witness here who was supposed to come the week that

19     we had to have off.  The fact that Defence cross-examination estimates

20     have been somewhat overestimates of how long they were going to take, so

21     we had insufficient witnesses here.  We say, particularly in the light of

22     the information we received from the Senior Legal Officer yesterday of

23     the estimated length of this trial now, that we should use the time when

24     we can in court.

25             As I say, she is expecting to give evidence tomorrow in-chief and

Page 13105

 1     we should be allowed to call her.

 2             So, Your Honour, that's the application that we make.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Zecevic, to the extent that I understand -- dealing with the

 5     witness, the expert witness, the -- as Ms. Korner has responded, have you

 6     forgotten, for want of a better word, that the decision was that she

 7     would only be examined in-chief tomorrow and that you have the -- that

 8     cross-examination has been deferred.

 9             Doesn't that answer the concerns that you have expressed?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I didn't forgot, Your Honours, of course.

11     But the -- what I -- what I was trying to brought to the attention of the

12     Trial Chamber and the Judges is that -- that we still believe that it

13     would be very hard for us to follow her direct examination on the basis

14     of the documents which have been disclosed to us.  I know that -- I know

15     that -- that Ms. Korner and the -- and you, yourself, have the -- have

16     decided on this, and Ms. Korner's argument is valid, I must say.  But,

17     still, I just wanted to raise this as an observation with the -- with the

18     Trial Chamber that -- which is creating a relatively big problem for the

19     Defence.

20             That is my answer.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the Chamber doesn't intend to make any further

24     comments at this point.  It would return to this later in the day, after

25     we would have had a chance to discuss it during a break.

Page 13106

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So the Prosecution is ready with its witness?

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, Your Honours.  There are a couple of

 4     preliminary matters in regard this witness which perhaps I can deal with

 5     first before he is brought in.

 6             The first one, Your Honours, is that he previously testified in

 7     2001 with protective measures of a pseudonym and voice -- facial

 8     distortion.  He has now -- and those protective measures were confirmed

 9     in these proceedings last year.  However, upon arrival at the Tribunal,

10     he has asked for those protective measures to be rescinded and now wants

11     to testify openly, so I'm making that application now so that -- so that

12     he can testify in open court.

13             I think a ruling has to be made to overturn the protective

14     measures previously granted --

15             JUDGE HALL:  I suppose we should hear from him before we purport

16     to rule.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Certainly, Your Honour.

18             The second matter is, this morning the witness handed me a

19     document which he brought with him from the region.  It's a -- it's a

20     certificate from the Red Cross showing his release from Trnopolje camp in

21     August 1992.  It hasn't been processed through our evidence unit because

22     it was only handed to me about half an hour ago.  I have shown it to the

23     Defence and we're having copies made, but I would be seeking to add it to

24     our 65 ter list and use it.  I don't believe there will be an objection

25     from the Defence because it's a procedural matter and they will be

Page 13107

 1     provided copies as soon as we are able to get them to them.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So noted, Ms. Pidwell.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  And the third matter, Your Honours, is the

 4     allocated time for this witness is 20 minutes.  Given that he has now

 5     chosen to testify openly and the fact that he has -- it's been ten years

 6     or nine years since he testified previously, I would ask that -- for some

 7     leniency and to be given a few extra minutes, perhaps 40 minutes in

 8     total.  We have some photographs to show him and some matters to clarify

 9     from his previous testimony.  I anticipate it will be approximately half

10     an hour but I'm asking for 40 minutes to be overly cautious.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I understand your application for further

12     time.  I don't understand how this has anything to do with the manner in

13     which he is now testifying.  But there may be a connection which is lost

14     on me.

15             At the -- we will begin and see where we go.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I have a short summary as

17     well of his prior testimony, which I would ask to -- to read out.  It's

18     very short.  But I can do it now or I can do it after the witness comes

19     in.  I'm in your hands in that regard.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE HALL:  So we, logically, must go into closed session, in

23     order to deal with the mode of testimony of the witness.

24                           [Closed session]

25   (redacted)

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE HALL:  When you entered the chamber, you were invited to

25     make the solemn declaration and the first thing I must do is to alert you

Page 13109

 1     that the effect of that is that you are exposed to the penalties which

 2     this Chamber is empowered to impose for perjury should your testimony be

 3     inaccurate or incomplete.

 4             Could you begin by telling us your name, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Mensur Islamovic.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your date of birth?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 20th of August, 1958.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  What is your ethnicity, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Bosniak.

10             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your profession?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a BA in law.

12             JUDGE HALL:  And did you practice as a lawyer?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

14             JUDGE HALL:  What -- what -- what work did you do?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mostly worked in the economy in

16     iron ore mines.  I was employed there as a lawyer, later on as a

17     secretary of one part of the organisation, and now I work in the

18     forestry.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Now you would have testified previously

20     before this Tribunal, and therefore, I need only remind you as to the

21     pattern that the -- is followed in terms of the examination of witnesses.

22             The side calling you begins - in this case, the Prosecution - and

23     after that, the Defence would have an opportunity to cross-examine.  And

24     the Prosecution could then re-examine you in the -- on matters arising

25     out of what has come in cross-examination.  And the Chamber may at the

Page 13110

 1     end of that or, indeed, at any point during the -- the examination of

 2     counsel themselves have questions of you.

 3             The Prosecution has requested a little more than 20 minutes for

 4     their examination of you, and counsel for the first accused,

 5     Mr. Stanisic, has indicated that they would be an hour; and counsel for

 6     Mr. Zupljanin has indicated that their cross-examination would last for

 7     three hours.

 8             The ordinary times of sitting of the Court are intended to -- in

 9     addition to the comfort of the witness, to facilitate the changing of the

10     tapes which are used to record the proceedings, and sessions do not

11     exceed 90 minutes in length.  Today, for certain other reasons, we sit at

12     slightly irregular times and we will taking a break at 12.25 in your

13     testimony.  And the -- then there will be an hour's break between 1.45

14     and 2.45 and we expect to rise for the day at 4.00.

15             If, for any reason, you are in distress or otherwise need a break

16     other -- at times other than when the Court would ordinary rise, if will

17     indicate that to us, we would, of course, accommodate you.

18             And I would now invite Ms. Pidwell to begin her

19     examination-in-chief.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21                           WITNESS:  MENSUR ISLAMOVIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Examination by Ms. Pidwell:

24        Q.   Mr. Islamovic, before I start ask you some questions, I'm just

25     going to read out a short summary of the testimony you provided in a

Page 13111

 1     previous case because that evidence will not be heard in court today.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, this witness is the first witness you

 3     are hearing from the municipality of Prijedor.  He has testified once

 4     before here in the Keraterm case, Prosecutor versus Sikirica, Dosen and

 5     Kolundzija, in 2001.  These men were camp commanders and guards of the

 6     Keraterm detention facility.

 7             Mr. Islamovic lived in the Puharska section of Prijedor, and in

 8     May 1992 he saw his elder brother being arrested.  He himself was

 9     arrested some two weeks later, on the 12th of June, by soldiers and a

10     policeman that he recognised.  He, together with another brother, was

11     taken to the police station in Prijedor.  He was not interrogated there

12     himself.  He was forced to wait outside while his brother was

13     interrogated in the police building and then they were both taken to the

14     Keraterm detention camp in a police van.  He spent 55 days at Keraterm.

15             He has testified previously about the location and the layout of

16     the Keraterm camp and the terrible conditions and beatings that occurred

17     there.  He described the frequent callouts at night when guards would

18     select a number of detainees and beat them, sometimes to death.

19             He was an eye-witness to the murder of one camp inmate by the

20     camp commander Sikirica, and was in room 1 when a massacre of the

21     detainees in room 3 occurred.  He heard the events of that night in

22     July 1992 when a large number of men, possibly up to 200, were shot by

23     soldiers who were let into the camp by the reserve policeman who was the

24     shift commander on duty.  The witness saw the clean-up the next day which

25     was conducted under the authority of a different shift commander, another

Page 13112

 1     reserve policeman.  There were more killings that evening.

 2             The witness remained in Keraterm until he was transferred,

 3     together with the other inmates, to Trnopolje camp in August 1992 and he

 4     was released from there a few days later.

 5        Q.   Mr. Islamovic, do you recall testifying in the case against

 6     Dusko Sikirica, Damir Dosen and Dragan Kolundzija, in this Tribunal, on

 7     the 22nd of March and the 26th of March, 2001?

 8        A.   Yes.  I remember quite well.

 9        Q.   And have you listened to that testimony you gave, the

10     examination-in-chief and the cross-examination, since your arrival in

11     The Hague this week?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   If you were asked the same questions again that you were asked

14     during the course of that testimony, would your evidence be the same

15     again today?

16        A.   I completely stand by the statement and the testimony which I

17     gave to this Tribunal.

18        Q.   Sir, as you know, I don't need to ask you questions that you were

19     asked previously in your testimony because you have listened to it and

20     confirmed its accuracy, so I will just take a few minutes to ask you

21     additional questions at this juncture.

22             In -- in late 1991, you were employed at one of the iron ore

23     mines in Prijedor.  What was your role there?

24        A.   I was appointed as a secretary of the OUR, as part of the

25     organisation iron ore mines Ljubija.

Page 13113

 1        Q.   And approximately how many employees worked at the mine?

 2        A.   Around 5.000 employees were employed at this mine.

 3        Q.   What was the -- the ethnicity of the employees of the mine,

 4     generally?

 5        A.   Well, approximately I think that the ethnic makeup of the

 6     employees, the Muslims and the Serbs, was such that their numbers were

 7     almost identical.  And the number of Croats was significantly lower.

 8     They may have accounted for about 10 to 15 per cent of employees, at the

 9     most.

10        Q.   And can you please explain how it came about that you stopped

11     working there in early 1992?

12        A.   As early as in late 1991 and early 1992, there was an unwritten

13     rule at the mine, that is to say, in the organisation which employed me

14     and also in the municipality of Prijedor in general, that all the

15     employees who had not reported themselves to the army or the reserve

16     police forces were not welcome to the company.

17        Q.   And how was it made known to you that you were not welcome at the

18     company?

19        A.   We were officially sacked in May.  All the Muslims and the Croats

20     who were fired from work, who, in inverted commas, were disloyal,

21     received written decisions.  That meant that these people did not want to

22     go to war in Croatia, that is to say, they didn't want to put on

23     uniforms, were deemed as people undesirable to come to work in that

24     organisation.  To put it simply, the guards at the gate refused entrance

25     to those employees who were not wearing uniforms.

Page 13114

 1        Q.   Were you, at that time, a member of an armed force?  Were you

 2     asked to -- were you -- did you receive a call-up?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Were you involved in any operations to -- to guard your area of

 5     Prijedor?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Were you a member of a political party at that time?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Sir, I want to ask you a couple of questions about the day your

10     older brother was arrested on the 31st of May, 1992.

11             You said in your prior testimony that you were able to see him

12     being taken away, as he lived in a house not far from yours.  Could you

13     tell the Tribunal who it was that took him away and describe that,

14     please.

15        A.   From the window of my house, I was able to see my eldest brother

16     being taken away.  Actually, an hour before that took place, I was

17     personally warned by some of my friends living across Puharska, to the

18     effect that the army was surrounding this particular neighbourhood and

19     that from the direction of Cejreci, they were carrying out a mopping-up

20     operation towards the city.  I was told not to try to escape because

21     opposite my house there was a railway track and the army took up

22     positions behind the railway tracks.  For that reason, they told me not

23     to try to escape because I would probably be shot dead.

24             Only for a moment, and occasionally, I peeked through the window

25     while my brother was being taken away by one soldier carrying a rifle;

Page 13115

 1     whereas, the other soldier started the car that was in the garage and

 2     drove away.  Since my brother and I had two attached houses, they

 3     probably did not come to my part of the house, thinking that this must

 4     have been one and the same household.

 5        Q.   Did you personally recognise any of the -- the men who were

 6     taking your brother away?

 7        A.   Not at the time.  Only later I learned from my brother and some

 8     other inmates the identity of the people who were there.

 9        Q.   When did you next see your brother?

10        A.   The only group of inmates from Keraterm that, after seven days

11     and following interrogation at Keraterm, was released, that group,

12     including my brother, consisted of some 15 to 20 detainees.

13        Q.   What did you do from the time your brother was arrested until the

14     time you were arrested, some 12 days later?

15        A.   During that time, I and the other brother of mine were in hiding.

16     We didn't dare to venture out.  I may have tried to get to the city on

17     two occasions at the most, just to see what was happening and why my

18     brother was taken away.  I wanted to see what the situation in the town

19     was.

20             As I said, we went out very seldom and, for the most time, we

21     remained in hiding.

22        Q.   So how did it come about that you were then arrested on the

23     12th of June?

24        A.   Unfortunately, we couldn't stay indoors all the time.  We had to

25     go out of the house, and a neighbour of mine, the second house from me,

Page 13116

 1     could not -- said he could not keep looking at us.  And then some 12 days

 2     later, about -- a number of policemen came, surrounded our house, and

 3     arrested my brother and myself.

 4        Q.   What was the occupation of this neighbour?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, there is a -- some missing in

 6     translation.

 7             Can you ask witness to repeat the answer who arrest him.

 8             MS. PIDWELL:

 9        Q.   Sir, it appears that the interpreters didn't catch your full

10     answer last time.  Can you please repeat.

11             My question was how did it come about that you were arrested on

12     the 12th of June.  Could you repeat your answer to that question, please.

13        A.   At around 1500 hours, after lunch, my brother knocked on my door,

14     in my part of the house, and asked me to come out.  I didn't understand

15     what this was all about.  When I opened the door, I saw about 10 to

16     12 policemen and soldiers who had come to arrest me and my brother.

17     Among those soldiers and policemen was the neighbour that I mentioned

18     earlier.

19        Q.   Thank you, sir.  What -- what was the occupation of this

20     neighbour?

21        A.   Before the war, he was an active-duty police officer.  But I

22     think that on the eve of the war, he was pensioned off, but then he was

23     reactivated and engaged as a reserve police officer.

24        Q.   Do you recall what uniform he was wearing on this day?

25        A.   He wore the blue police uniform.

Page 13117

 1        Q.   Was that a camouflage uniform or a regular uniform?

 2        A.   No, I don't think it was a camouflage uniform.  It was the

 3     regular uniform.

 4        Q.   You said you saw about 10 to 12 -- sorry, 10 to 15, sorry,

 5     policemen and soldiers who came to arrest you and your brother.  Were you

 6     able to decipher who was in charge of this group?

 7        A.   Well, not exactly.  But I think that this neighbour of mine, the

 8     policeman, was in charge.  Because judging by his demeanour, from the

 9     moment we were arrested until we were taken to the police station, I

10     concluded that he was the man in charge.

11        Q.   And of the 10 to 15 policemen and soldiers, are you able to tell

12     the Tribunal which were policemen -- or how many police and how many were

13     soldiers, or guess the proportion?

14        A.   I can't give you a decisive answer.  Because, really, at that

15     point and later on, that was something the least relevant to me.  But

16     let's say, in percentage, that there was equal number of policemen and

17     officers -- and police officers, but I really can't remember.

18        Q.   Was your house searched on that day?

19        A.   Yes.  A number of policemen and soldiers entered my part of the

20     house and the brother's part of the house.  After they had conducted the

21     search, it turns out that they found nothing because there was nothing to

22     find.  And after that, they drove us to the police station.

23        Q.   When you were taken to the police station, who was driving the

24     vehicle?

25        A.   It was a van, a civilian van, windowless, kind of a heavy goods

Page 13118

 1     van that had no windows in the rear.  But while we were being driven, the

 2     back doors were open.

 3             I cannot remember exactly who was in the driving seat.  I

 4     really -- I really can't remember.

 5        Q.   You said in your prior testimony, sir, that your brother was

 6     taken into the police building but you were made to wait outside.  Do you

 7     know why you were not taken inside the building at that time?

 8        A.   It wasn't clear to me at the time why that was the case.  When we

 9     were brought there, we all had to kneel and lean three fingers against

10     the building of the MUP.  There was a total of four of us who were

11     arrested.  They were taken upstairs, but while I was kneeling there, a

12     police officer approached me from behind and asked me my name.  When I

13     told him my name, he said, Get up.  Whether that was because, at the

14     time, I spoke to him, I really don't know.

15             So the other three men were interrogated but I, myself, was not

16     interrogated at the police station at that time.

17        Q.   I'm going ask to you look at a photograph now, sir.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  It's 65 ter 3419.44.  It's in tab 1.

19             Is it possible to have it a little bigger?  That's better.  Thank

20     you.

21        Q.   Sir, do you recognise that photograph?

22        A.   Yes, I recognised it.

23        Q.   I wonder -- you have the pen, I see.

24             I wonder if you can mark on there the police building with the

25     letter 1 -- the letter A.

Page 13119

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And do you recognise the court, the court-house?  And

 3     if you do, mark it with the letter B.

 4        A.   Hmm, yes.

 5        Q.   And if you see your place of work on that photograph, could you

 6     mark it with the letter C.

 7        A.   This is the administration building of my company.

 8        Q.   Now we see some cars parked right up close to the police

 9     building.  Can you perhaps indicate with an arrow where your -- the van

10     that you were travelling in came in and parked on the day of your arrest?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  And if could you mark the arrow with the letter D,

13     please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Now, this photograph was only taken last year.  Were there any

16     changes to the -- the building or the surrounds that you have noticed

17     since your detention there in 1992?

18        A.   Yes.  I think that next to the court-house, between the MUP

19     building and these garages here, there used to be a high metal fence.  So

20     when this vehicle driving us came in, all of that was from the front of

21     the MUP.  However, this is the back entrance to the MUP where our van was

22     parked and where the garages were, and this is where this high metal

23     fence was.

24        Q.   That's where you've drawn the line next to the letter D; is that

25     correct?

Page 13120

 1        A.   Yes.  I put it a little bit bolder.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And perhaps just to clarify for the record, you

 3     mentioned some garages.  If you could mark those with the letter E.

 4        A.   The length of the garages is identical to that of the MUP

 5     building, so I would mark it in this way.  So these are the garages I'm

 6     talking about.  The garages -- or, rather, the premises where also people

 7     were being interrogated before they were taken to Keraterm or Omarska.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And when you were waiting outside the building while

 9     your brother was inside, are you able to indicate on the map - if there's

10     room - where you were?

11        A.   Can you please repeat the question?

12        Q.   If you could mark on the photograph where you were waiting

13     outside the MUP building while your brother was inside.

14        A.   Mm-hm.  Next to the very entrance to the building.  That is where

15     we were.  Leaning against the wall, next to the door, the main door.

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  And, for the record, the witness has marked a small

18     red dot -- just one moment.

19             Your Honours, it appears that the markings have not been saved.

20     We're going to have to do it again.

21             Perhaps I can lead him through this.

22        Q.   Sir, the markings that you so kindly provided to us on the

23     photograph were not saved through a technical problem and we're go to

24     have to go through the process again.  Perhaps I can lead you through it.

25             Could you mark with the letter A, the MUP building, please.

Page 13121

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And B is the court-house; C is your work.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MS. PIDWELL:

 6        Q.   Could you mark with the letter D where you were travelling when

 7     you came in the van on the day of your arrest.  There was an arrow and

 8     the letter D.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And E were the garages.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   You've marked the fence.  And lastly, the red dot where you were

13     waiting outside the MUP building for your brother.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that as an exhibit, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1520, Your Honours.

19             MS. PIDWELL:

20        Q.   Sir, we know from your prior testimony that you were then driven

21     to Keraterm camp.  Do you recall the driver of the vehicle that

22     transported you there?

23        A.   Yes, I remember him quite well.  He was a policeman.  If

24     necessary, I can tell you his name.

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 13122

 1        A.   Strika.  A big man with moustache, a strong man.  He was driving

 2     the police van.

 3        Q.   Did you see him on more than one occasion?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.  I personally saw him when he brought inmates in, in

 5     his vehicle.  And I also heard from other inmates that his main task was

 6     to bring in Muslims and Croats to Keraterm and Omarska.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, I can't believe that we're at the point

 8     for the break already.  So if this is a convenient point, we would break

 9     now and resume in 20 minutes.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             MS. PIDWELL:

16        Q.   Sir, could you tell us, upon your arrival at Keraterm camp, who

17     the camp commander was?

18        A.   I think that at the time the commander of the camp was Knezevic.

19     Zivko Knezevic.

20        Q.   And had you known this man before your arrival at the camp?

21        A.   Yes.  I think that before the war, he was the police commander in

22     Prijedor.

23        Q.   Did he remain the police commander during your detention at

24     Keraterm?

25        A.   No.  I think that he was very soon replaced by Dusko Sikirica.

Page 13123

 1        Q.   And was -- did he remain as the commander during the entire

 2     period of your detention, or was he also replaced?

 3        A.   He was also replaced, I think just before the end, and that an

 4     elderly man came to his position, but I don't remember his name.

 5        Q.   In your testimony, you described the uniforms of the guards as

 6     being SNB colour uniforms.

 7             Could you please give an actual description of what they were.

 8        A.   Not all the guards who had the olive-drab uniforms had uniform

 9     uniforms.  Some were from the JNA, and they were solid.  Others wore

10     camouflage, that is to say, multi-coloured uniforms.

11        Q.   And when you say "multi-coloured," is that multi-coloured green

12     or multi-coloured blue?

13        A.   As you asked me about the soldiers, they wore the green and beige

14     multi-coloured uniforms.

15        Q.   Were there any other uniforms worn by other guards?

16        A.   Yes.  The policemen wore dark blue and light blue uniforms.

17     These were the police uniforms.

18        Q.   I want to show you a document now, sir.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  It's tab 5, Your Honours.  It's 65 ter 463.  It has

20     already been tendered as an exhibit, as P662.

21        Q.   Sir, you will see that document is headed:  "List of police

22     employees to be given special access passes to the Keraterm reception

23     centre."

24             There's a list of some 54 names.  It's a one-page document in the

25     B/C/S but it goes to two pages in the English.

Page 13124

 1             Just looking perhaps at the first 20 names in the B/C/S, do you

 2     recognise any of the names as being people that you saw guarding or in a

 3     command position at Keraterm while you were there?

 4        A.   Yes.  Zivko Knezevic, as I already said.  At the beginning, he

 5     was the commander of the camp.  Then Dusko Sikirica, who is under

 6     number 4, replaced him after that.  Tomo Prodan was one of the shift

 7     leaders or he used to replace one of the shift leaders.  Predrag Banovic

 8     was also there, as well as Dragan Coric, numbers 16 and 17.  They were

 9     guards.  I know them personally.

10             MS. PIDWELL:  If we can go to page 2 of the English, please,

11     which are numbers 21 through 46.

12        Q.   If you look at numbers 21 through 46, please, sir.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  If we could pull up the B/C/S a little bit.  And do

14     the same exercise.

15        A.   Number 21, Dusan Fustar, he was one of the shift leaders.

16     Number 23, Lazo Gavrilovic, a guard.  Damir Dosen, a shift leader.

17     Drasko Dosen, a guard.  Milan Pilipovic, another guard.

18     Dragan Kolundzija, shift leader.  Zurnic, a guard.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  And if we could go to the last page of the English,

20     please, and just the bottom of the document in B/C/S.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Slobodan Gnjatic, a guard.

22     Goran Grujic, a guard.  Vukasin Vujcic, also a guard.

23             MS. PIDWELL:

24        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I'm going to ask you now look at another aerial

25     photograph.

Page 13125

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  It's 65 ter 3419.45.

 2             That's tab 2 for Your Honours.

 3        Q.   Sir, do you recognise any of the buildings in that photograph?

 4        A.   Yes.  We can see here the building of the Keraterm camp.  That

 5     was the former Keraterm factory.

 6        Q.   Would you mark the building perhaps slightly above it with the

 7     letter A, please.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And can you indicate on the map [sic] where the

10     vehicle came in that dropped you off for the first time at Keraterm,

11     which direction it came on the road and where it stopped.  Perhaps with

12     an arrow.

13        A.   It came from the direction of the town.  It was here.  Then it

14     turned here.  This is where the gate was.  And then it passed through

15     here to the reception office, which was just next to the industrial

16     scales.  And then it passed to somewhere about here, in front of -- in

17     front of the dormitories, 1 and 2.  This is where we got out.

18        Q.   Could you mark the gate with the letter B, please.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Thank you.  And we know that Keraterm had four rooms where people

21     were detained.  Could you perhaps show on the rooftop of the building the

22     layout of the rooms, and mark them with 1, 2, 3, and 4.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Thank you.

25        A.   I have marked immediately -- I have placed the numbers

Page 13126

 1     immediately above the doors that led into the particular dormitories.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that as an exhibit, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1521, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  May I ask the -- does that mean that only a portion

 7     of the building was dedicated for use as a camp?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Behind the numbers that I

 9     marked was a section that was not used as a detention facility for

10     inmates, and also the part of the building that is to the extreme right.

11     So this part, let me mark them with a B and a C.  So approximately it's

12     just this section which I marked with 1, 2, 3, and 4.  That was the part

13     of the building that was used to detain the inmates.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You have answered the second question I

15     was about to ask as well.  Thank you, sir.

16             Yes, Ms. Pidwell.

17             MS. PIDWELL: [Microphone not activated]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1522, Your Honours.

20             MS. PIDWELL:

21        Q.   I'd like to show you one last photograph.  It's in tab 3,

22     65 ter 3419.46.

23             Sir, if you are able to look at this photograph and mark on it

24     where the MUP building is, if you can see.  And mark it with a letter A.

25        A.   It's a bit more difficult because it's small, but you can

Page 13127

 1     recognise it.

 2        Q.   Yes, thank you, sir.  And I know you can't see the Keraterm

 3     facility on that map, but can you indicate whereabouts it is in relation

 4     to that?

 5        A.   All the way to the right.  So from the direction of

 6     Bosanski Novi; that is to say, from my house towards Keraterm and

 7     Banja Luka.  That's the road and this is the direction.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know the distance between -- the approximate

 9     distance between the MUP building and Keraterm?

10        A.   Well, it's approximately a kilometre and a half, or 2 kilometres,

11     at the most.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that as an exhibit as well.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1523, Your Honours.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, you had asked for a little leeway in

18     terms of time.  I would point out to you that you have now spent

19     48 minutes.

20             MS. PIDWELL: [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I only have a few more

23     questions.

24        Q.   Sir, from your prior testimony, we know that you were

25     interrogated during your detention at Keraterm.  Do you recall how long

Page 13128

 1     after your arrival at the detention facility that interrogation took

 2     place?

 3        A.   Approximately 20 days to about one month after I initially

 4     arrived to the camp, that was the time when I was interrogated.

 5        Q.   And what were the nature of the questions?

 6        A.   It was a farce.  It was a circus and not an interrogation.  They

 7     were mainly interested in learning what my brother and I had been doing,

 8     whether we had been politically active, whether we were members of the

 9     SDA party, whether we had obtained any weapons and so on.  Something that

10     made no sense, as far as I was concerned, at the time.

11        Q.   Were you ever told why you were detained there by the

12     authorities?

13        A.   No, unfortunately, never.  But I did suppose.

14        Q.   And how did it come about, sir, that you were later transferred

15     to Trnopolje?

16        A.   Around the 1st of August, there were some unusual activities

17     going on at the Keraterm camp.  They used to count us more often or place

18     us into groups and make lists, all kinds of things.  In any case, I

19     learned from the guards that the camp would be dismantled and that we

20     would be transferred to Trnopolje.  Some people would be sent to Omarska;

21     some to Trnopolje; and some inmates would be exchanged.

22        Q.   How were you transported to Trnopolje?

23        A.   In buses.  The army and the police escorted us, and we were

24     transported there in civilian buses.

25        Q.   How many days did you spend in Trnopolje?

Page 13129

 1        A.   Between the 4th and the 7th of August.  Then a friend of mine

 2     came there and signed that he would guarantee for me, and that was when I

 3     was released.

 4        Q.   This morning, sir, you handed me a document which you'll now see

 5     transformed onto your screen.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  In Sanction.

 7        Q.   Could you please tell the Tribunal what this document is.

 8        A.   Mm-hm.  That is the certificate which I received from the

 9     municipal Red Cross organisation of Prijedor at the Trnopolje camp.  It

10     reads that I arrived there on the 4th of August.  And page 2 includes the

11     name of the friend of mine who guaranteed for me, as well as the date

12     when I was released.  That was the 7th of August, 1992.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. PIDWELL:  This is the document I mentioned at the beginning

15     of his testimony which he handed me this morning, Your Honours, and a

16     copy has been given to the Defence.  I would seek your leave to add it to

17     our 65 ter list and exhibit it at this juncture.

18             JUDGE HALL:  What is the Defence --

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  No objection, Your Honour.  We understand the

20     circumstances.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic.

22             MR. KRGOVIC:  No objection, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1524, Your Honours.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.  It's not in e-court yet, but we will --

Page 13130

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  It should be MFI'd because -- pending translation,

 2     yes.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Therefore, Exhibit P1524, marked for

 5     identification, Your Honours.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.  I have no further questions for this

 7     witness.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I, Your Honours?

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

12             Today on page 15 you said - and let me quote - that you

13     completely stand by your statement and the testimony before this

14     Tribunal.

15        A.   I said that I fully stand by everything that I stated before this

16     Tribunal.  That's correct.

17        Q.   When you mentioned statements, you meant the three statements

18     which you gave to the investigators of this Tribunal; correct?  Did you

19     have that in mind?

20        A.   Statements stated before this Court are one thing.  This is what

21     the Prosecutor asked me.  And the statements which I gave to the OTP

22     before my testimony in court are another thing.

23        Q.   Let me just clarify this.

24             We have your testimony in the case in which you testified, and

25     there is no doubt about that, because you already accepted that and it's

Page 13131

 1     already a part of the package, as we informally call it here, in

 2     accordance with Rule 92 ter.  That is one thing.

 3             Do you agree with that?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   Another thing are the statements which you gave before you came

 6     to testify in 2000 and 2001, and you gave them to the investigators of

 7     this court.

 8        A.   That's right.  I apologise, let me clarify.  We have to make a

 9     digression here.  The first statement from 2000, which I gave at the MUP

10     in Sanski Most, is very short.  It was given ad hoc, and it is very

11     imprecise.

12             The statement which I gave to the investigators of ICTY was given

13     over the period of three days.  It is much clearer, and it could happen

14     that certain details given in the statement to the Prosecutor's office in

15     Sanski Most are somewhat different to the details from the other

16     statement, which is quite normal.

17        Q.   I absolutely agree with you, that this is normal, that the

18     statements are not identical, and that a context in which they are given

19     and the time should be taken into account.

20             But the essence of what I understood is that you stand by what

21     you said in the statements and you basically repeated that in your

22     testimony before this Court.

23        A.   99.9 per cent.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, I read the transcript as the witness

25     being asked have you listened to -- do you recall testifying in the case

Page 13132

 1     against Sikirica with three dates.  Have you listened to that testimony?

 2     And if you were asked the same questions and so on and so forth.

 3             So it's -- if I understand it well, the answer was not about all

 4     the statements, was about this testimony.

 5             Am I wrong?

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, page 15, line 8 and 9, the

 7     question is:  "If you were asked the same questions again that you were

 8     asked during the course of that testimony, would your evidence be the

 9     same again today?"

10             "I completely stand by the statement and the testimony which I

11     gave to this Tribunal."

12             That is the basis of my cross-examination, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry, but that's not -- that's not a question

14     and that's not the answer.

15             Well, you go ahead.  You understand it differently.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I will read to you -- I do not wish to

18     tender your statements.  I will just read to you a part of your statement

19     to see if you remember that part and whether you stand by that.

20             It is your statement given on the 24th of August, 2001, to an

21     investigator of this court.

22             Do you remember that?

23        A.   The 24th, the 25th, and the 26th of August, yes.

24        Q.   Fine.  On page 3 of that statement you said the following:

25             "Serb began to arrest people who were of Bosniak and Croatian

Page 13133

 1     ethnicity around the 20th of May, 1992.  The collection centres were the

 2     places where these people were taken and where they were detained for

 3     just a few days.  The collection centres, between the 20th of May 1992,

 4     were operational for about ten days.  All the arrested men, women,

 5     children and elderly people were brought to these collection centres.

 6     The women, children and elderly would be sent to the Trnopolje camp after

 7     a day or two.  Other prisoners spent three to five days, on average, in

 8     these centres.  As for per cents, about 95 of those arrested were

 9     Bosniaks or Muslims and 5 per cent were Croats.  All the people

10     imprisoned in the collection centres were civilians.

11             "These centres were mainly run by members of the Serbian army.

12     However, in each of the collection centres, several policemen were

13     present as well.  I have to note that the majority of the staff were the

14     local Serbs who wore military uniforms.  In the first two days, no food

15     or water was distributed.  If anybody stayed for more than two days at a

16     collection centre, he would be given a piece of bread and a little

17     water."

18             Do you remember that you stated that?

19        A.   Absolutely, yes.

20        Q.   Do you stand by what you said at the time?

21        A.   I absolutely and fully stay by that.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             On page 16 of your testimony today, answering to a question of my

24     learned friend, you talked about mobilisation in late 1991.  Do you

25     remember that?

Page 13134

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   You said -- you noted a fact or provided an explanation by saying

 3     that beginning in late 1998 [as interpreted] the guards at the entrance

 4     of the mine where you were employed did not wish to allow employees who

 5     were not wearing uniforms to come and work, if I understood you properly?

 6        A.   I said that the unwritten rule was that all people who were not

 7     wearing military or police uniforms were undesirable.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] On page 36, line 15, I said towards

 9     the end of 1991 not 1998 as the record shows.

10        Q.   Sir, if I understood you correctly, you worked at the mine as the

11     secretary of an OUR.

12        A.   Yes, that's one part of that work organisation.

13        Q.   Since we understand each other but for the benefit of the

14     interpreters, please let's make pause between questions and answers so

15     that everything can be translated.

16             Sir, you, as part of the management of that company, were not

17     expected to come to work in uniform, weren't you?

18        A.   Well, let's say that that was the case.

19        Q.   The employees who worked in the mine itself did -- did they have

20     certain equipment, but first let me ask you whether it was an open-pit

21     mine or a --

22        A.   Yes, that was an open-pit mine.  And extracted from there was

23     ore -- iron ore.

24        Q.   But, at any rate, the people working in the mine have to have

25     certain safety equipment, so to speak.

Page 13135

 1        A.   Yes.  Proper working clothes.

 2        Q.   Can you tell me how these working clothes looked like in the mine

 3     where you worked.

 4        A.   I first have to explain the following.  You put it rightly when

 5     you said that I was part of the management team.  Unlike workers who were

 6     working in the pit, we were dressed in civilian clothes, in nice clothes,

 7     as usual.  That applied to people working in the administration, unlike

 8     those who were working in pits or in the factory who wore working

 9     clothes; that is to say, for as long as the mine and the factory was in

10     operation.  But already at the beginning of 2002 --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, this is the year that

12     witness said.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I think that nobody at that time

14     thought about the work process.  The only thing that everybody thought

15     about was war, and I would like to emphasise this.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you said 2002.  I suppose that you meant

18     1992.

19        A.   Yes, I apologise.  I was talking about early 1992.

20        Q.   Very well.  So, if the employees working in the management

21     section and in the administration service came to work in their normal

22     clothes appropriate for the job that they carried out, and the workers

23     who were working in pits were coming in proper clothes and carrying

24     equipment required for their jobs, I don't understand how come that you

25     ascertained that those who were not dressed in uniforms were denied

Page 13136

 1     access to the premises, to the workplace.

 2             Did you mean that figuratively, or did you mean it as a fact?

 3        A.   It is very simple.  All the mine employees who were subject to

 4     work obligation had to wear uniforms.  For the most part, and I can give

 5     you some percentages, that involved over 90 per cent of the Serb

 6     employees who already in the -- early 1992 came to work, unlike the

 7     Muslims and the Croats who did not have uniforms and who, at the time,

 8     already were not coming to work.

 9        Q.   Sir, I will drop this subject because it is not too important.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, just one little question.

11             Mr. Witness, does that -- do you mean to say that the Serbs did

12     come in uniform?  The 90 per cent of the Serbs, you say, did they come in

13     uniform to the workplace?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, for the most part.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you said, and we need to clarify this for

18     the Trial Chamber, you said that they came because they had work

19     obligation; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.  A number of them was probably subject to work obligation.

21     As for the others, I don't know.

22        Q.   Sir, in the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

23     mobilisation, once it is declared, was carried out in such a manner that

24     it was mandatory for those who were called up to respond; is that right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13137

 1        Q.   And those who failed to respond were even accused of committing a

 2     criminal offence by doing so; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And this criminal offence was stipulated by the Criminal Code.

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   Those who were not called up to join military units were called

 7     up to perform work obligation, which, essentially, was equal to

 8     mobilisation.  The only difference was that, instead of carry fire-arms

 9     and taking part in military operations, they were working in production

10     and in the industrial sector.

11        A.   Yes.  That should have been the case, but it wasn't.

12        Q.   I asked you theoretically and what the law said?

13        A.   Yes that's what the law said.  But the fact was that neither I

14     nor my brothers ever received any military or -- or mobilisation summons,

15     either for the military service or for the war -- work obligation.  And

16     that apply to the majority of Muslims and Croats.

17        Q.   Sir, you are aware that mobilisation and work obligation were

18     something that was publicly announced; do you remember that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Once mobilisation is publicly declared, then the summons are not

21     served personally but that meant that all those falling into this

22     category were obliged to report to the unit according to their

23     assignment.  And you also had an assignment; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Sir, although you knew that mobilisation was publicly declared,

Page 13138

 1     neither you nor your brothers reported to your units.

 2        A.   That's correct.  And that also meant the majority, the vast

 3     majority of Croats or Muslims because tacitly nobody accused us of that

 4     because we were undesirables.

 5             When you said that according to the criminal law sanctions were

 6     stipulated for such violations, but we never suffered such sanctions.  I

 7     assume that that was the case because already at that time they knew how

 8     we would end up.  We were simply persona non grata at our workplace, but

 9     probably we were desired as inmates in camps.

10        Q.   Sir, it is a fact, isn't it, that the Party of Democratic Action

11     and its president, Izetbegovic, on several occasions during 1991, called

12     upon the Muslims, the Bosniaks, not to respond to the publicly declared

13     mobilisation by the Yugoslav People's Army; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So it is true that you, members of the Muslim community,

16     Bosniaks, and that applied to Croats as well, did not wish to respond to

17     the mobilisation.  That is the truth.  It is not true that it was the JNA

18     who did not wish to have you among their ranks.

19        A.   But I can explain that to you from my point of view.

20             When the Muslims and the Croats saw towards the end of 1991, when

21     they were mobilised and they went to fight in Pakrac and other places

22     there, and when they saw what was being done there, then they themselves,

23     in addition to this appeal that you mention coming from Sarajevo to

24     Prijedor, they themselves decided not to go to the front.

25        Q.   The fact is, isn't it, that such a huge number of Muslims and

Page 13139

 1     Croats refused mobilisation in 1991 and that it was practically

 2     impossible to have all these people prosecuted; isn't that right?

 3        A.   That could not have been the reason for what happened to us

 4     afterwards.

 5        Q.   Sir, in your testimony on page 879 and 880 of 21st of March,

 6     2001, while you gave evidence in the Keraterm case, you confirmed that

 7     from the window of your house you were watching your brother being taken

 8     away on the 31st of May; do you remember that?

 9        A.   Yes, I remember that very well.

10        Q.   And on that occasion, when asked who took him away, you said that

11     it was done by the JNA soldiers.

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Further on, on that same page, you described an event when you

14     and your other brother, on the 12th of June at around 3.00 p.m., if I

15     remember correctly, were taken away; do you remember that?

16        A.   Yes, I remember it clearly.

17        Q.   And this is what you said:

18             "When I opened the door, I saw some 10 to 12 soldiers with their

19     rifles pointed at me.  I was confused.  The only one I recognised was a

20     neighbour of mine who was a reserve policeman and he also had his rifle

21     pointed at me.  I asked him, 'What is this?  What is this all about?'"

22             Do you remember that?

23        A.   Yes, I remember that very well.

24        Q.   During cross-examination conducted by my learned friend Petrovic

25     on the 26th of March, 2001, on page 968 of the transcript, he asked you

Page 13140

 1     the name of the neighbour.

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   And he [as interpreted] said that his name was Brane Bosnjak?

 4        A.   That's correct.  But that was the neighbour who had a house that

 5     was not next to mine but the second next to mine.

 6        Q.   On page 42 I said that you said that his name was Brane Bosnjak.

 7     And this is just for record.

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.  And he was a reserve policeman.

 9        Q.   And then my learned friend asked you about his ethnicity.  You

10     said, "I think that he was a Serb."  And then he asked you about this

11     armed group, to which military structure they belonged, whether they were

12     police, army, White Eagles, paramilitary, et cetera, to which you

13     responded that all of them were soldiers or at least one could say that

14     based on their uniforms.  After they had taken us to the MUP building, I

15     suppose that those were regular JNA soldiers.

16             Do you remember that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  And I stand by that.

18        Q.   Very well.  It is a fact, sir, isn't it, that this neighbour of

19     yours named Brane Bosnjak, and I think you said the same thing today as

20     well, retired sometime before the war.

21        A.   I believe so.  Yes, but before that, he was an active-duty

22     policeman.

23        Q.   So, he worked as an active-duty policeman before the war, then he

24     retired.  And when you saw him in 1992 --

25        A.   Yeah, he was reactivated as a policeman again.

Page 13141

 1        Q.   But, actually, you don't know that, that he was reactivated as a

 2     police officer.

 3        A.   Look, at that point and even in my statement, I said that it was

 4     totally irrelevant to me and that I cannot remember all those

 5     12 soldiers, how many among them were actually policemen, how many were

 6     soldiers.  But for him, I know for sure that he had a police uniform on.

 7             As for the others, I don't remember.  Whether I was terrified or

 8     there was some other reason, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Sir, I read a portion of your statement given in 2001, which is

10     nearly ten years ago.  You also testified here in another case that all

11     of them were soldiers, judging by their uniforms, and that Brane Bosnjak

12     was a reserve police officer.

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, when you reach a convenient point, we

15     would take the lunch break.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just one question, and we can -- and I will move to

17     something else.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, I am reiterating that you don't know for

19     sure whether Mr. Bosnjak was indeed a reserve police officer or if he was

20     perhaps mobilised for Territorial Defence.

21        A.   No.  I know definitely that he was a reserve police officer

22     because he was the only one dressed in blue police officer -- police

23     uniform.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, we can -- we can have a break at this

25     point.  Thank you.

Page 13142

 1             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise, to resume in an hour.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.47 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 2.51 p.m.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Before the witness comes in, can I revert to the

 6     matter of Ms. Tabeau which I raised this morning and what I'm about to

 7     say may obviate the need for you to make any decision.

 8             Ms. Tabeau has been going through, obviously, her tables in

 9     preparation for giving evidence.  In particular in the victims of war

10     report, although the main body and her main tables will remain completely

11     unaffected and indeed her conclusions, in re-checking -- and I apologise

12     for the fact that the re-checking wasn't done earlier but, in fact,

13     because she has always been a stand-by witness and was away, she only

14     started this week.  She has noticed there are some figures in the tables

15     in the annex, annexes, to had report, which need slight correction.  It

16     involves, however, five different tables, as I understand it.

17             It does not affect the tables in her main report and the main

18     part of the report nor her conclusions.

19             However, it's clear, I had hoped that the corrections, I was told

20     about this just before the break, would be -- could be done very quickly

21     simply and only affected one table.  I'm told it's five.  So therefore,

22     really, in order to get it to the Defence but the end of this afternoon

23     even though it doesn't affect, as I say, her testimony, that's not

24     possible.  So the -- there are two possible courses.  One is that we

25     don't call her at all.  Alternatively we call her tomorrow without the

Page 13143

 1     corrections to the tables in her annexes.  And certainly her report, her

 2     original report is wholly unaffected.  It has got nothing to do with

 3     that.  It's only her new one, and she can deal with that.

 4             So, Your Honours, to that extent we're in Your Honours' hands and

 5     obviously what the Defence feel about it.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Well, of course, one of the factors is when would

 7     the present -- when the witness who is at present on the stand, when

 8     would his testimony be completed.  But dealing specifically with

 9     Ms. Tabeau, the -- what the Chamber would have been reminding counsel,

10     particularly Mr. Zecevic who would have raised this this morning, is

11     that, in addition to what we had already said about reminding him about

12     her cross-examination being deferred, was the fact that, as is the

13     practice that we have adopted, the application that the -- the -- the

14     Chamber defers its decision on the application to tender the relevant

15     reports until after cross-examination is completed.

16             So the tidying up, for want of a better expression, which you

17     have indicated would occur, would, I suppose, underline the desirability

18     of deferring the admission into evidence of the accompanying material in

19     any event.  But we'll see where we go.

20             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, that's -- that's -- I -- I take

21     that point in entirely.  As I say, Ms. Tabeau can explain when she gives

22     evidence why she wants to alter those tables slightly.

23             So in that event, Your Honours, we're happy for her to start

24     evidence tomorrow.

25             There's only one thing.  She's going to be adjourned without

Page 13144

 1     cross-examination and, of course, we therefore can't speak to her.  But

 2     it may well be that we do need to speak to her about the corrections even

 3     while she's giving evidence, so that is the only thing we'd ask for

 4     leave.  Otherwise she'll be, as I say, part heard, as it is giving

 5     evidence, so that we can't talk to her normally.  That's the only problem

 6     that arises.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] The -- in addition to

 9     inviting your response on the present question, it may also be useful,

10     while you and especially Mr. Krgovic who had indicated three hours

11     with -- with the present witness, to indicate when we are likely to be

12     finished with this witness.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I indicated one hour, and I

14     believe I used some 35, 40 minutes and I have additional 15 minutes, so I

15     will stick to one hour, what I -- what I anticipated for the

16     cross-examination of this witness.

17             As regards to Ms. Ewa Tabeau, I understand the position -- we

18     take no position on this application.  We stated -- I stated basically my

19     position earlier today.

20             Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, after the

23     examination-in-chief and after Mr. Zecevic has finished, my

24     cross-examination will substantially be curtailed, so I don't think I

25     would use more than half an hour.  So I believe that we can finish with

Page 13145

 1     this witness today.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So we will work on the assumption that

 3     Ms. Tabeau will be available for testimony tomorrow.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, certainly.

 5             Your Honour, can I just mention in passing, though, just for

 6     perhaps after the break, that maybe the cross-examination estimates could

 7     be a little bit more realistic than they have been for the last few

 8     weeks.  I mean, we really have, I mean, you know, from three hours down

 9     to 15 minutes is a really massive drop.  And we can only organise for the

10     witnesses to come on the basis of what we're told what will be

11     cross-examination.  So we have been running out of witnesses the last few

12     weeks.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the Chamber shares that concern and I trust

14     that when we return after the summer break that the estimates with which

15     we are provided would -- would be more in keeping with what is likely to

16     happen, because everyone shares the concern about wasted court days.

17             Yes, the usher can escort the witness back to the stand.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue, Your Honours?

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please, Mr. Zecevic.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, on the 12th of June, you were taken from

24     your home at around 3.00 p.m., and if I understood you correctly, on that

25     same day, you were brought to Keraterm.

Page 13146

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Zecevic, please proceed continue.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Since I interrupted you, I will share with counsel

 6     what I was just consulting with Judge Delvoie and then later with the

 7     legal officer sotto voce about, and that is the matter raised by

 8     Ms. Korner as to the rule about not being able to consult a witness who

 9     is part heard during an adjournment, and I was comparing the -- the

10     general exception, as I understand it, to this rule in common law

11     practice to a person who was an expert witness.  And I appreciate that in

12     this case, there is controversy as to whether she is an expert but the

13     Chamber has nevertheless ruled, so I appreciate that the Defence is not

14     ad idem with the Prosecution on this.  So perhaps by tomorrow, if it is

15     necessary for us to revisit this, we may have to look at the question as

16     to whether this absolute prohibition would apply to a witness such as

17     Ms. Tabeau.  Because, of course, rules always have to be applied in a way

18     that they make sense and that they facilitate rather than frustrate the

19     process.

20             So, as I said, we may return to this tomorrow.  Thank you.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, when on the 12th you arrived there, I think

23     that you confirmed today again that at that point the commander of

24     Keraterm was a certain Zivko Knezevic; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 13147

 1        Q.   And if I understood your evidence correctly today and your

 2     testimony on page 897 of 21st of March, 2001, only after two or three

 3     days was the running of Keraterm taken over by Sikirica.

 4        A.   Roughly speaking.  Well, let's say five to six days.  But it was

 5     a relatively short period.

 6        Q.   This person, Zivko Knezevic, was also a retired policeman, and he

 7     retired before the war.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Very well.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

11     P662.

12        Q.   It's a document that has been shown to you by the Prosecution.

13             A while ago you had a look at this document, right?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the document please be pulled

16     up a little bit because I need to show the witness the heading of the

17     document in B/C/S.

18        Q.   In the upper left-hand corner it says "RSM Prijedor II."  This is

19     the War Police Station Prijedor II.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Probably.

21        Q.   And this document is entitled:  "The list of police employees to

22     be given special access passes to the Keraterm reception centre."

23             And down at the bottom - if we can now pull it down, please - it

24     is signed by this Zivko Knezevic, the station commander.  Can you see

25     that?

Page 13148

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Please tell me, it is handwritten here that, I think, took over

 3     54 passes on the 25th of June, 1992.  Milenko Popovic and his signature

 4     is below.  Can you see that that is written there?

 5        A.   I can see that perfectly, yes.

 6        Q.   Tell me, there are really 54 persons on this list; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you know who this Milenko Popovic is?  Are you familiar with

 9     that name?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   I mean, he is not on the list.  I reviewed the list.  So you're

12     not familiar with the name?

13        A.   No.  Neither the first or the last name, they don't mean anything

14     to me.

15        Q.   Do you know from whom this person had taken over these 54 passes?

16     Do you have any idea who could -- who could they have been taken over

17     from?  Who issued them to him?

18        A.   I suppose the person who signed this document, and that is

19     Zivko Knezevic.

20        Q.   I know.  But, sir, it says here the list of police employees to

21     be given special access passes, and under number 1, Zivko Knezevic is

22     listed.  So he made the list and he placed himself under number 1 on it.

23     And somebody else, a third person who is not in the list and neither you

24     nor I know who is he, and that is the person by the name of

25     Milenko Popovic, took over 54 passes on the 25th of June.  It's not

Page 13149

 1     logical that he would take over the passes from Zivko Knezevic, right?

 2        A.   I don't know if it's logical or not.  But if there were a

 3     typed-up date on the list that would state when it was made, then I would

 4     tell you that if I had been brought to the camp on the 12th of June, and

 5     if we take this period of five days, it's possible that Zivko Knezevic,

 6     as early as on the 15th, or on the 17th, was no longer the camp commander

 7     but was holding some other position.  That is the logic of the questions

 8     that you have asked me, as far as I see it.

 9        Q.   Sir, I agree with you.  He signs himself here and says that he's

10     the station commander.  And we saw in the heading of the document that it

11     says, "War Police Station Prijedor II."  So, at the moment when he was

12     making this list, Zivko Knezevic was the commander of that station.

13     Correct?

14        A.   For me, Zivko Knezevic was a policeman whom I knew.  I can

15     describe how he looked physically.  And, at the time, when I got to the

16     Keraterm camp, he was the camp commander.  At least three or four times

17     during these several days, five or six days, I used to see him in the

18     Keraterm camp.  I really don't know.  There could be three different

19     Zivko Knezevics, but I know this one whom I used to see at the Keraterm

20     camp.

21        Q.   Sir, your testimony in the Sikirica case was that Dusko Sikirica,

22     it is on page 897 on the 22nd of March, 2001, you said the following:

23             "Sikirica came later, maybe 15 days after the day on which the

24     camp was established.  Before him, the retired -- a retired policeman was

25     the commander and I think that his name was Zivko Knezevic."

Page 13150

 1             That was your testimony in the Sikirica case.

 2        A.   Excellent.  The camp was established on the 31st of May.  15 days

 3     after the 31st of May is the 15th of June.  Would two or three days mean

 4     anything in all this?

 5        Q.   Sir, please.  I'm not trying to do anything.  I was just

 6     interested in one thing, and you had an impression that it was something

 7     else.  It's not the way I wish to question you.  I agree that lots of

 8     time has passed and I take into account the stress that you were under.

 9     There is no doubt that you got there on the 12th, and that three, four,

10     or five days after that, Sikirica became the commander.

11             I'm only interested, in connection with this document, as to

12     whether you have any idea or knowledge from whom this Milenko Popovic

13     could have taken over the 54 passes on the 25th of June, 1992.

14        A.   I really don't.  I'm sorry, but, no.  I didn't know it; I

15     couldn't know it; nor do I know it now.  And even if I tried, I couldn't

16     conclude anything about that.

17        Q.   Sir, it is a fact, and you testified about that on page 977 on

18     the 26th of March, 2001, that you had heard that behind the dormitories

19     in Keraterm a unit of military police had stayed.  Is that correct?  Do

20     you remember that?

21        A.   We had some knowledge of that.  Even that there was some sort of

22     detention or, I don't know ...

23        Q.   Thank you, sir.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no more

25     questions for this witness.  Thank you.

Page 13151

 1        Q.   Thank you for your testimony.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Islamovic.  My name is

 5     Dragan Krgovic.  On behalf of the Defence of Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, I will

 6     continue to question you and my questioning will last shorter than I

 7     announced, considering your testimony up until now, so maybe 20 minutes

 8     or half an hour, and I hope that we will finish your testimony today.

 9             Mr. Islamovic, when the Prosecutor asked you at the very

10     beginning after reading the summary of your statement about Keraterm,

11     there was something that remained unclear to me so I will ask you now

12     whether I understood properly the essence of your testimony and what the

13     Prosecutor read out.

14             It has to do with the incident in Keraterm, the murder of

15     prisoners, in front of dormitory number 3.  As far as I understood your

16     testimony and what the Prosecutor read out to you, a group of soldiers

17     came to the camp, that is to say, Keraterm, and killed these men in

18     dormitory number 3.  Is that correct?

19        A.   You could put it that way.  A group, that's a relative notion, a

20     group.

21        Q.   In your testimony you said that you heard that these were

22     100 soldiers.

23        A.   There were many of them.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

25        Q.   You said that they were soldiers who had come there from outside

Page 13152

 1     the camp.  They were not in charge of guarding you but they came from

 2     someplace else.  That was how I understood it.  Correct?

 3        A.   In addition to the guards who were standing guard, they came to

 4     the camp from outside, yes.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my question had to do

 6     with the adjudicated fact 1089 from the Krajisnik case.

 7        Q.   Further, as far as I understood your testimony and the statement

 8     you gave earlier, at the Keraterm camp, at the time when you were

 9     detained there, all the inmates were men; correct?

10        A.   Yes.  Perhaps on one day, as far as I remember, two or three

11     women passed through it, but either on that very day, or the next day,

12     they were transferred to Omarska.  So it was generally just men.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my question had to do

14     with the adjudicated fact 893 and also 898.

15        Q.   Mr. Islamovic, my colleague Mr. Zecevic also asked you whether,

16     in addition to your testimony in the Sikirica case, and your today's

17     testimony before this Court, whether you gave several statements to the

18     OTP.

19             Generally speaking, I'm not interested in the statement, which I

20     won't mention.  Let me just ask you about the statements which you gave

21     to the OTP.

22             While reading your statements, I could see that some of the

23     information that you provided to the OTP was your direct experience;

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 13153

 1        Q.   And one part of your statement was based on the information which

 2     you collected or heard from other people while you were the president of

 3     the Association of Camp Inmates of Bosnia and Herzegovina; correct?

 4        A.   President of the Camp Inmates Association of the Prijedor

 5     municipality.

 6        Q.   My colleague Mr. Zecevic read out to you what you stated on the

 7     24th of January, 2001, and you had the occasion to review it before

 8     coming to court today.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, the 24th of March.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] When you described the camp of Omarska -- I will

12     read out to you how you described it.  You said:

13             "This camp was in full capacity, beginning on the 24th May until

14     5th of August, 1992.  Most of the survivors were then transferred to the

15     Trnopolje or Manjaca camps."

16             Do you remember that that was what you said?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   And you stand by that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   When you described how the camp was run, in the last sentence you

21     said this camp was run by the military even though there were some

22     policemen who seemingly worked under the command of the army.  Do you

23     stand by that statement?

24        A.   Well, let me say I do stand by that, though, at the moment, I

25     really didn't think about this at all and I didn't find this important.

Page 13154

 1     In some of my statements when I said "the army," I also had in mind the

 2     police and the army and all the uniformed men who were on the other side,

 3     who were not inmates but were at the camp.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:  The date of the statement is incorrect.  There was

 6     a -- Mr. Krgovic I think said the 24th of March.  Then there was an

 7     interpretation -- which said it was the 24th of -- that it was in

 8     January and then it was in March.  In fact it's the 24th of August, 2001,

 9     that you're referring to.  Just to clarify that for the record.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

11             MR. KRGOVIC:  I said the 24th of August.  Maybe it was a slip of

12     the tongue but I think I did say the 24th of August, 2001.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date is unimportant.  I

14     remember the contents, so ...

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Islamovic, I'm sure you distinguish between the army and the

17     police.

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   You made that clear during the examination-in-chief.  So taking

20     into account your statements and testimonies, I just wanted to ask you if

21     you stand by that and I wanted to read out a couple of sentences to you.

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   As you said during your testimony in the Sikirica case and in the

24     statement, as for Keraterm, you said that the camp was in full capacity

25     from the 30th of May until another date --

Page 13155

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could --

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Until the 5th of August and that it was under the control of the

 4     Serbian army.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   I think so.

 6        Q.   When you talked about Trnopolje, which was open for a longer

 7     time, as you said, it was also under the control of the Serbian army, but

 8     of the three said camps, this one was the least notorious; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  Though some guards there also carried -- also wore all

10     kinds of uniforms.

11        Q.   Just another question that has to do with the certificate issued

12     by the Red Cross.

13             When you came to Trnopolje, the Red Cross -- that is to say, the

14     address Andje Knezevic 18, is that the address where you would be staying

15     after Trnopolje or was that the address of Trnopolje?  I didn't

16     understand that.

17        A.   That's my home address.

18        Q.   And as I understood the certificate issued by the Red Cross, even

19     though the copy is not very good, the Red Cross would accommodate you in

20     your own house?

21        A.   No.  According to the certificate, I spent the time between the

22     4th and the 7th of August at the Trnopolje camp, when we were received by

23     the Red Cross after Keraterm, at the Trnopolje camp.

24        Q.   So at the Trnopolje camp you were received by the Red Cross.  And

25     then on the 7th of August, you went home.  Correct?

Page 13156

 1        A.   Well, according to the certificate, it seems that the Red Cross

 2     received us but it wasn't like that.  And it is correct that some

 3     inmates, if they had a Serb who could guarantee for them, as you can see

 4     on the back side of the certificate, then such an inmate could leave and

 5     return to his home in Prijedor.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Islamovic.  I have no further questions for you.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination.

 8                           Re-examination by Ms. Pidwell:

 9        Q.   Sir, you were asked some questions by my learned friend a little

10     while ago about the statement you made to this Tribunal dated the

11     24th of August.  I'm now referring to the questions posed by Mr. Zecevic

12     earlier today.  And he read out a portion of that statement to you.

13             Do you recall that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And the portion he read out said that -- it started by saying:

16             "The Serbs had starting arresting the people of Bosniak and Croat

17     ethnicity around 20th of May."

18             Then it carried on and said:

19             "The collection centres were the places where the arrested people

20     were taken."

21             Now do you recall in your statement directly before that

22     paragraph you had listed the 41 detention facilities in the Prijedor

23     area?

24        A.   I do remember that well.  I wanted to react on that occasion.

25     Maybe this is a good opportunity.

Page 13157

 1             One must make a distinction here between collection centres where

 2     people were kept for a period of two to five days and camps, death camps,

 3     such as Keraterm, Omarska, and Trnopolje.

 4        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.

 5             You were later asked about your -- some questions about whether

 6     you were -- had received a call-up before you were arrested.  And I'm

 7     referring to page 40, where you said that you had received an assignment.

 8             Could you tell the Tribunal what your assignment was?

 9        A.   Could you please just help me?  I'm not sure whether I understand

10     what you're referring to by "assignment."

11        Q.   Certainly.  You were asked a question by my learned friend which

12     had a couple of issues in it, and I wanted you -- your answer was yes and

13     that's why I wanted to clarify.

14             I'll -- the portion of the question was -- the first part of the

15     question was:

16             "Once mobilisation is publicly declared, then the summons are not

17     served personally but that meant that all those falling into this

18     category were obliged to report to the unit, according to their

19     assignment?

20             "And you also had an assignment; is that correct?"

21             And your answer was:  "Yes."

22             I just wanted to clarify whether your answer was -- your answer

23     in the affirmative was to the first part or the second part of that

24     question.

25        A.   Your -- your statement is correct.  The first part of the

Page 13158

 1     question, it was prescribed by the law, that all able-bodied men upon

 2     hearing of mobilisation must report to their military departments where

 3     their papers were kept.

 4        Q.   Did you personally receive an assignment?

 5        A.   No.  Neither myself nor my brothers, for that fact, none of my

 6     neighbours, Muslims or Croats that I knew of, or that I knew at the time,

 7     did not get any such personal assignments.

 8        Q.   Thank you for clarifying that.  You were also asked some

 9     questions about the document with the list of names by my learned friend

10     and about the passes that were given to the individuals in relation to

11     Keraterm camp.

12             Did you actually see any guards carrying passes while you were

13     there?

14        A.   No, I did not.  I either didn't have a chance of seeing the

15     passes in question, or -- but in any case, the passes for us camp inmates

16     were of no relevance.  Anyone could have entered Keraterm camp at any

17     point and do whatever they wanted.

18        Q.   Sir, you were also asked some questions about the women at

19     Keraterm camp.  Where were they housed?

20        A.   As far as I know, they weren't housed at Keraterm.  But I

21     remember the name of a neighbour of mine who spent one night, only one

22     night, either in dormitory number 1 or dormitory number 2.  I think there

23     must have been only two or three of them that spent just one night in

24     Keraterm and then left to Omarska, together with the other -- with other

25     inmates in -- I think it was in number 2.

Page 13159

 1        Q.   And just to clarify, this neighbour that you're speaking of is a

 2     woman?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And, finally, sir, you were asked some questions by Mr. Krgovic

 5     just a few minutes ago about Trnopolje.  And you said that the guards at

 6     Trnopolje while you were there wore all kinds of uniforms.

 7             Could you elaborate on that for us, please.

 8        A.   In my previous statements one can often see mention of either

 9     soldiers or people in uniform.  Not even the soldiers wore uniforms that

10     were all the same.  Some wore JNA uniforms, olive-drab, in other words.

11     Then others wore camouflage uniforms, grey-green uniforms with patches.

12     And then there was a third type, blue police uniforms with light blue

13     shirts.  Police shirts, very conspicuous.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.

15             MS. PIDWELL:  I have no further questions for this witness, and

16     unless Your Honours have any questions, I seek to tender his 92 ter

17     package.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.  The --

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 10400 -- 10401 will

20     become Exhibit P1525.1; and 65 ter number 10402 will become

21     Exhibit P1525.2.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  I was reminding myself about the --

23     about that extra -- but, of course, that's not a part of the 92 ter

24     package, the one that was marked for identification, the Red Cross

25     document.

Page 13160

 1                           Questioned by the Court:

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Islamovic, you told us that the prison

 3     warden, Knezevic, was before the war a retired police officer and that he

 4     came back during these events as a reserve police officer, right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  How about Mr. Sikirica?  What was he -- what was

 7     his position before the war, if you know; and what was he -- was he a

 8     police officer, a reserve police officer, while the prison warden?

 9        A.   I can answer your question because I know it.

10             My friend worked in Celpak factory.  I believe he was not a

11     policeman.  Whether he was a reserve policeman, I don't know that, but he

12     was an employee of Celpak factory.  And I know that for sure that he was

13     not an active policeman before.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             Then do you know of any rape cases of female detainees in

16     Keraterm camp?

17        A.   I don't know of any rape cases in -- for Keraterm camp, but at a

18     later stage, I heard that in Omarska there was quite a few rapes, that

19     about 20 women were arrested and kept there, and I talked to them later

20     on in Trnopolje, and later.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Islamovic, for your testimony before

23     the Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness and we wish you a safe

24     journey back to your home.

25             And we --

Page 13161

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  And we would resume this trial tomorrow morning.

 3     We're back in Courtroom III.  Now, you had something before we --

 4             MS. KORNER:  Just simply this, Your Honours.  The question

 5     obviously of whether we can speak to Ms. Tabeau, or anybody from the OTP,

 6     perhaps could we have the ruling on that before she begins her evidence

 7     so that we all know where we are.

 8             She's obviously -- she is a witness in other cases and

 9     therefore --

10             JUDGE HALL:  Just a moment.  Since we aren't rising

11     immediately --

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

13             JUDGE HALL:  -- I will ask the usher to escort the witness from

14     the courtroom.  Thank you.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, going back to the point that you

17     raised, my recollection or understanding is -- even in the common law

18     system is even with an expert, once he has started to testify, he is not

19     allowed to discuss matters with counsel from the side that's calling him

20     or, indeed, from the other side.  Of course, exceptions can always be

21     made in the interests of -- of keeping things moving smoothly.

22             With Ms. Tabeau, as with other witnesses who Your Honours have

23     heard who work here, I know she's certainly testifying in other cases and

24     it may be that during the adjournment - I don't know - some of the other

25     cases may want to speak to her about -- about matters.  Now, again,

Page 13162

 1     that's a matter Your Honours may want to consider.

 2             But from this case, I think the only point is this:  That if

 3     she's going to correct any of her figures once she's started, it may well

 4     be that - can I put it this way? - this is out of pure caution.  She can

 5     simply put it down into -- into a statement.  I just raise it as a matter

 6     of interest.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I was wondering, Ms. Korner, if any corrections

 8     have to be made, as you described it, why would you have to discuss it

 9     with Ms. Tabeau out of court?

10             MS. KORNER:  As I say, I have no idea.  This is an abundance of

11     caution.  But I do know -- or it may be Your Honour wants to ask

12     questions, but, in fact, I think she is going to be able to explain

13     tomorrow why she wants to make the corrections, so that should in any

14     event deal with it.

15             And, secondly, Your Honours, in hopes -- in hopes, because

16     there's a lot of work that needs to be done, we'll be filing probably

17     tomorrow, so two days earlier -- no, one day earlier, a corrected list of

18     witnesses.  But we wondered if we can have an exchange, perhaps the

19     decision on the other witnesses because of the work that needs to be

20     done.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Which one --

22             MS. KORNER:  The one where we said we would like to drop eight

23     but replace it with five, and if that was possible before the adjournment

24     we would be most grateful.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We are trying that one as well, Ms. Korner.

Page 13163

 1             JUDGE HALL:  When I mentioned earlier about the professional

 2     witnesses -- and I was thinking out loud so my thoughts may not have been

 3     as clearly developed as they should have been, but I was thinking of the

 4     practical reality that the basis for the rule would -- must necessarily

 5     have been different historically from a witness as to the facts who could

 6     be influenced to -- by discussions with counsel to change his or her

 7     testimony than a pure -- let's take a person who is a fire-arms expert

 8     whose report would be his report, regardless of which side called him or

 9     whether he is called by the Bench and therefore there would be no -- the

10     likelihood of being influenced would be remote.

11             But as I said, we would have to devise a -- we'd come with a

12     practical solution to the problem that you've identified.

13             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours.  As I said, it's pure -- I think

14     it was just to safe-guard the potential position.  Not so, indeed, so

15     much for our case, but the question of whether counsel from other cases

16     need to talk to her.

17             We are hoping to have her back for cross-examination -

18     Ms. Pidwell did it - but I think it's the second week after the recess.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway, counsel, we can think about it overnight and

20     if counsel have further views, we would -- as you said, if we would -- if

21     we have to formally rule on this to do so before the witness is sworn --

22             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

23             JUDGE HALL:  -- and we do so tomorrow morning.

24             Yes, thank you.

25             MS. KORNER:  Absolutely.  And, Your Honours, I'm told that the

Page 13164

 1     second week after we're back she should be returning for

 2     cross-examination, on our estimates.

 3             That will give Mr. Zecevic lots of time.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.47 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of July,

 7                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.