Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13511

 1                           Monday, 23 August 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances for today,

10     please.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I'm Tom Hannis, along

12     with Alex Demirdjian and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing

15     for Stanisic Defence.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic for

17     Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             If there is nothing that need delay us, may we -- should the

20     usher escort the witness in?

21             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Our first witness is

22     Mico Davidovic.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 13512

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, sir.  I trust you can hear me in a

 2     language that you understand?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, good morning.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Would you please make the solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  MILORAD DAVIDOVIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.  You may be seated.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  The solemn declaration that you have just made,

12     exposes you to the pain of the penalties for perjury should you give

13     false or misleading testimony to this Tribunal which is a lawfully

14     constituted criminal Tribunal under international law.  I would, first of

15     all, ask you to state for the record your name, your date of birth, and

16     your ethnicity.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milorad Davidovic is my name.  I

18     was born on 13th of February, 1951 in Opre, Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I

19     permanently reside in Belgrade, in Vospovra Jevremova [phoen] Street,

20     number 31.

21             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your ethnicity?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your profession?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a degree there political

25     science and another degree in speech therapy.  I worked as a policeman

Page 13513

 1     and I spent my entire career working for the police.  I'm a retiree now.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Have you testified previously before

 3     this Tribunal or before any of the courts in countries that comprise the

 4     former Yugoslavia?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I was already before

 6     this Tribunal in the proceedings against Mr. Krajisnik.  Also, I was a

 7     witness in the court in Belgrade, the special court for war crimes, that

 8     is, in the case against the Yellow Wasps.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you sir.  In which case I need only remind you

10     of our procedure which is that the side calling you will begin by asking

11     you questions - in this case it is the Prosecution.  After which the side

12     opposite, the Defence respectively of Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Zupljanin

13     would have a right to ask you questions.  The Prosecution could have

14     questions you in re-examination and at any point the Benches may have

15     questions of you.

16             The pattern of sitting that we follow and your testimony is

17     scheduled for mornings this week so it means that at the end of the day,

18     the sitting day would be at 1.45.  But there are two scheduled breaks in

19     between that, both for the comfort of the witness and counsel and

20     everybody else involved but also for technical reasons having to do with

21     changing the tapes which can only run for 90 minutes before they have to

22     be changed.

23             So the -- at approximately 90-minute intervals, actually, it's a

24     little shorter than that there would be a 20-minute break and we would

25     resume until we rise for the day, as I said at 1.45.

Page 13514

 1             Notwithstanding those scheduled break that I have indicated, if

 2     for any reason you need to request a break before the scheduled time, if

 3     you indicate that to us, we will certainly accommodate you.

 4             And with that, I would ask Mr. Hannis to begin his

 5     examination-in-chief.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:

 8        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   I want to begin by addressing some of your prior evidence that is

11     being offered in this trial pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

12             You told the Judge that you previously testified in the case

13     against Mr. Krajisnik.  Before coming to court today, did you have a

14     chance to review your testimony that you gave in that case by listening

15     to it?

16        A.   Yes, I read it, and I listened to it in its entirety.

17        Q.   And after having done that, are you able to tell us that you were

18     satisfied that it was -- it was an accurate account of your evidence, and

19     would you give the same answers today if you were asked the same

20     questions?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I will be moving to tender that

24     evidence at the end of his testimony, and those transcripts for the dates

25     he testified in Krajisnik are 65 ter numbers 10474 through 10478.

Page 13515

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Davidovic, in addition, the Prosecution is proposing to

 2     offer evidence that you gave in a written statement and some additional

 3     information.  That written statement reflects interviews that were

 4     conducted with you in November 2004 and January 2005.  And I think you

 5     have a hard copy of that document in front of you; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And before coming to court today, did you have a chance to review

 8     it?

 9        A.   I've already read it over the course of the past few days.  So,

10     yes.

11        Q.   And during proofing, I just wanted to go through with you, there

12     were a few -- there were a few items where in our conversations you made

13     some -- some minor correction.  If you could look at paragraph 39, first

14     of all.  And paragraph 39 talks about --

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm -- I'm sorry, Mr. Hannis, is the document in

16     the courtroom.  I mean, for the benefit of the accused, if you can call

17     it up on the screen, please.

18             MR. HANNIS:  It is.  And this is 65 ter number 10472.

19        Q.   Paragraph 39 is where you talk delivering some equipment from

20     Belgrade to Pale.  And you previously said February or March of 1992.

21     And during proofing, you indicated that it may have been April, as you

22     remember the trees were green at that time of year; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  I have to clarify that, if I may just briefly.

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

25        A.   Before making this written statement I had said to you that I

Page 13516

 1     cannot remember exactly which time-period it was.  Will it be a month

 2     sooner or later, I'm simply not in a position to say because it's been a

 3     long time.  I was very busy, I did lots of work, so I can't remember the

 4     exact dates and the names of people.  It is hard for me to remember that

 5     now with a high degree of precision.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm truly sorry.  Can we have the paragraph 39

 7     which Mr. Hannis is referring to, and the witness, please?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  What is it you're requesting?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  The -- on the monitor we have paragraphs from 32 to

10     34.  Now it's changed.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Oh.  It's page 11 in both of English and the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  Yes I recall you do -- do telling us

13     that.  I think you also testified about that in Krajisnik.

14             At the time of these events in 1992, is it correct that you --

15     you made a number of notes and reports contemporaneously with those

16     events?

17        A.   Yes.  Of course, I had to report to my superiors and those who

18     had sent me out on certain missions.  So I wrote up notes on all the

19     tasks I carried out.  There were several of them.

20        Q.   And -- and had you a personal collection of -- of your notes and

21     copies of those reports in -- in your personal possession for a number of

22     years after those events?

23        A.   Yes.  Quite a few of them.

24        Q.   But you no longer have them.

25        A.   I no longer have them.  When my apartment was searched by the MUP

Page 13517

 1     of the Republic of Serbia, that documentation was found.  Everything was

 2     seized.  And I have submitted to you a copy, certifying that all of this

 3     material had been seized.  There was quite a bit of that.

 4        Q.   And it's never been returned to you since that time?

 5        A.   Never.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             And Your Honours that's reflected in his written statement and I

 8     won't go into any more detail about it at that time.

 9             One other change.  At paragraph 43, this is about assistance to

10     the new RS MUP in April 1992.  It's at page 12 of both the B/C/S and

11     English.  And you talked about a meeting with Mr. Kertes and

12     Mr. Gracanin.  You say it was about the 6th of April.  However, at -- the

13     proofing note indicates that after you had a reviewed a couple of

14     intercepted telephone conversations it became clear to you that that

15     meeting must have been later because those telephone conversations in

16     May, early May, 1992, are in your memory, ones that took place just a few

17     days after your meeting with Gracanin and Kertes; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I clarified all of that for you, in detail.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Having noted those corrections, can you tell us that

20     you're satisfied that your written statement is an accurate account to

21     your -- to the best of your knowledge and memory of the events and

22     they're described in that written statement; and would you give the same

23     answers, if asked the same questions?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 13518

 1             MR. HANNIS:  And, Your Honours, that's 65 ter 10472 and 10473

 2     which we'll move to tender at the end of his evidence.

 3        Q.   Now, with those clarifications, I would like to move on and just

 4     ask you about some specific events that perhaps you can elaborate or

 5     clarify or expand on a little bit.

 6             We have in your -- your prior testimony and your statement some

 7     of your background.  You began working in the police in 1974.  In 1982,

 8     you went to Sarajevo to help with the security for the 1984 Olympics; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   By my math, you were aged 31 at the time.  That's -- that seem's

12     pretty young for such a big job.

13        A.   Well, we were recruited young and we started working at a very

14     young age, so they gave us this opportunity to prove ourselves.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And in 1988, you say you were nominated for a

16     management position with the federal SUP but you didn't take up that job

17     until 1991.  I'd like to show you a document.  It's Exhibit P516.  This

18     will be up on your screen in a moment, Mr. Davidovic.

19             Prior to going to work for the federal SUP, what was your job at

20     that time in the police?

21        A.   First of all, let me answer the question from the monitor.  What

22     was written here by Momo Mandic, that he gave his consent, I have to

23     explain that.  It wasn't that Momo Mandic gave me his consent to go to

24     the federal SUP.  Two years before this document was written, I had the

25     consent or, rather, the decision of the republican MUP collegium to be

Page 13519

 1     sent to the federal MUP.  However, I delayed that because of certain

 2     things that happened in the SUP.  There was some changes of personnel.

 3     These important changes took place, and so on, and then when I was

 4     replaced, then I offered my services to Petar Gracanin and he said that

 5     that decision was valid and that I could come there and that is how I

 6     transferred to the federal SUP and started working there.  And then I was

 7     sent from the federal SUP from the personnel department to Sarajevo to

 8     get all my personal documents and that is when Momo Mandic wrote up this

 9     accompanying document, although he is not the one who made the decision.

10     It was Muhamed, the former minister of the interior who did.

11             So I would like to do away with any possible suspicion that it

12     was Momo Mandic who sent me.  Actually when I went, they complained

13     because I and Sredoje Novic, who was under-secretary for state security

14     Yugoslavia at the time, were being sent there.  Then

15     Minister Delimustafic, Avdo Hebib, and I don't know who else, complained

16     from Bosnia-Herzegovina and therefore he was no longer under-secretary

17     for state security in the former Yugoslavia although that had been made

18     public in the "Official Gazette" but still the appointment did not come

19     through.  However they accepted that my appointment go through and that I

20     remain there.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, when the witness is

22     speaking could all other microphones be switched off.  We with barely

23     understand what the witness is saying.  Thank you.

24             MR. HANNIS:

25        Q.   Before you left to go work for the federal --

Page 13520

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Excuse me, Mr. Hannis.  I note the interpreter's

 2     note.  And I was having actually problems following what the witness was

 3     saying.  If you can please instruct the witness to -- to speak slowly

 4     and -- and clearly into the microphone so we can have actually what he

 5     said.  Because a part of his testimony has not been recorded.

 6             MR. HANNIS:

 7        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, the interpreters indicated that it would be

 8     helpful if you could speak more slowly and it looks like one of your

 9     microphones is off.  I'm not sure if that's part of the problem.

10        A.   Exactly.  It's on now.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

12             So try to speak a bit more slowly if you can.

13             After --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Zecevic, you indicate that a portion of

15     the witness's testimony was not recorded.  Is it sufficiently significant

16     that Mr. Hannis should perhaps be asked to have the witness repeat his

17     answer in its entirety?

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, either that or we can address it in

19     cross-examination.  Whatever is Mr. Hannis's preference.

20             MR. HANNIS:  I'll leave it to the Defence to follow up, if there

21     is something additional that they want in that regard.

22        Q.   Immediately before you went to take up work with the federal SUP,

23     what had been your job in the police?

24        A.   I was commander of the police station Ugljevik, then the chief of

25     the crime prevention service in the security service in Tuzla.  Then I

Page 13521

 1     was commander of the traffic police station in Bijeljina.  Then I was

 2     appointed commander of the general police station in Bijeljina.  Then I

 3     was appointed co-ordinator of both stations, and during the last six

 4     months I was chief of the public security in Bijeljina.

 5        Q.   And could you explain for us briefly what the federal SUP was and

 6     what its relationship was with the republican MUPs in the various

 7     republics of the former Yugoslavia.

 8             And I see your other microphone has gone off again.  Oh.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  [Microphone not activated]

11             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear that conversation but --

12     okay, I see it's off again and I guess that's the way we want it to work.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We're advised that the technicians have

14     switched off one of the microphone because the witness's proximity to the

15     microphone means there is a distortion.

16             MR. HANNIS:

17        Q.   Sorry, Mr.  Davidovic, we will work with one microphone with you

18     then.  Do you need to hear my question again or can you answer?

19        A.   You need not repeat.

20             I'll explain briefly.  The federal SUP was federal agency of the

21     former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  One of its purposes was to

22     provide security to federal institutions and to embassies and consular

23     offices abroad to provide security to public officials and to perform

24     other work in institutions of special importance to former Yugoslavia,

25     that was part of the public security and within the area of state

Page 13522

 1     security, it was the main centre that co-ordinated and guided the work of

 2     these services.  That is to put it very briefly.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And we see from your written statement that once you

 4     got to the federal SUP and began working there, one of the tasks that you

 5     took up was work on a commission, a federal commission, that was

 6     established to visit Security Services Centres and SJBs in Bosnia.  And

 7     what was the purpose of that commission?

 8        A.   There was more than one such commission.  The first one was

 9     established with a view to preventing war conflicts that's arose in

10     Croatia.  After that commission returned from Croatia, another one was

11     formed to go to Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to establish, together

12     with the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina, whether or not there were

13     any violations of the Law on Internal Affairs regarding the security of

14     citizens whether there were any [indiscernible] conflicts and whether the

15     police was involved in them or preventing them, whether there was any

16     increase or decrease in the reserve force of the police, and if so, in

17     which authorities and which agencies and to co-ordinate the work between

18     the police and the army with a view to establishing joint check-points,

19     to check on the passage of motor vehicles, military or otherwise, and to

20     defuse the tensions between the members of the army and the members of

21     the police, primarily those of Muslim ethnicity, and commission carried

22     out that work in all centres, some of them were stationed in -- in -- one

23     range of centres and the others in -- in others.

24        Q.   In your -- in your statement at paragraph 30, you're talking

25     about an example of some of the changes in reserve police numbers seen in

Page 13523

 1     the Tuzla region.  The question I have, near the end of that paragraph,

 2     you make references to the new SDS Bijeljina chief refused to surrender

 3     certain weapons.

 4             Who was that chief of the Bijeljina SUP at that time?  Can you

 5     give us the name of that person?

 6        A.   That was Predrag Jesuric, appointed by the SDS, the Serbian

 7     Democratic Party, and by a decision by Minister Delimustafic.

 8        Q.   And that's the man who replaced you as police chief in Bijeljina?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Was he a professional policeman before receiving that

11     appointment?

12        A.   No.  He was never involved with the police.  For a while he

13     worked as a judge later as lawyer, although he had never been a lawyer

14     until then.  He was mostly involved in smuggling and worked as a foreign

15     currency dealer.  He had his own network of dealers, and, that's what he

16     did.

17        Q.   Thank you.  At paragraph 34 you refer to the federal SUP Special

18     Brigade.  Can you tell us briefly what that brigade was?

19        A.   Within the brigade which had 1100 -- sorry, 1.000 or 1200 men

20     depending on the moment, they provided security for all federal

21     institutions and institutions of special importance to Yugoslavia, all

22     representative offices such embassies abroad, et cetera, security at

23     workplaces for public officials at home and at work, et cetera.  Within

24     the brigade, there was also a battalion for special operations and that

25     was a units for special purposes.

Page 13524

 1        Q.   And what did the term "special purposes" cover?  What kind of

 2     activities were those?

 3        A.   Well, a special unit had been established long before.  It was

 4     only the only special unit in Yugoslavia.  They were trained to react to

 5     terrorist incursions into the territory of Yugoslavia in open or closed

 6     spaces to prevent kidnaps and hijackings by terrorists again.  They were

 7     trained for special tasks involving persons who would try to endanger the

 8     safety of other citizens and that's what they were trained for.  That

 9     unit had around 100 mean.  It had state-of-the-art equipment.  The latest

10     equipment and the people who worked there were 25 to 30 years old,

11     extremely fit and extremely well trained.

12        Q.   Did the federal brigade consist of men from all the various

13     republics of the former Yugoslavia?

14        A.   Yes.  It included a regular segment that was replenished from the

15     centre in Kamenica.  Some men were provided by republics which

16     contributed a number of men.  The number varied from republic to republic

17     but they all provided a certain complement.

18        Q.   Now, after the -- the conflict in Bosnia started in early April,

19     did you have occasion to be directed to have some participation in Bosnia

20     by your bosses?

21        A.   It was not suggested to me.  I had been to the newly established

22     MUP of Republika Srpska on visits to offer assistance, in terms of

23     materiel and equipment, and later I was officially sent by the official

24     authorities there, and I had a clear assignment.  And I did two tours

25     there with part of the unit from the federal SUP in Bosnia and

Page 13525

 1     Herzegovina, that is, the territory of Republika Srpska more

 2     specifically.

 3        Q.   Before -- before going to the RS with -- with other members from

 4     your -- from your federal SUP brigade, had -- I think you have just told

 5     me you had made trips to the -- to the new RS MUP and helped with

 6     delivery of certain equipment; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What kind of equipment did -- did you take?

 9        A.   Uniforms, helmets, shields, flak jackets, certain weapons and

10     ammunition.  Everything that the police needs.

11        Q.   Any communication equipment?

12        A.   I think there was some, but I don't know exactly.  I know about

13     the part that was taken from the brigade, such as uniforms and some

14     additional equipment, such as armour helmet, et cetera.

15             I suppose there were also communication systems but I think it

16     was hand-held radios.  I can't remember anything else, although I'm

17     pretty sure there was more than that.

18        Q.   In paragraph 43 of your statement, you talk about meeting you had

19     with Kertes and Gracanin.  And you say at this meeting this was where you

20     were instructed to -- to go to -- to the RS.  First of all, can you tell

21     the Court who Mr. Kertes was and what position he held at the time?

22        A.   In the statement that I have before me, I don't see the

23     paragraph 43.  It must have been omitted in the typing but I can answer

24     the question regardless of whether I see it before me or not.

25             Mr. Kertes used to be member of the Presidency of the Republic of

Page 13526

 1     Serbia, and after finishing his term of office there, he was appointed to

 2     the federal SUP as assistant of the federal minister then federal

 3     [as interpreted] Gracanin, and he was in charge of public security and he

 4     was in charge of co-ordinating the work of security services within the

 5     federal SUP.

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, at page 12 I think, paragraph 43 is on page 12, both

 7     the -- of the English and the B/C/S.  I think it's the bottom of your

 8     page 12, Mr. Davidovic.

 9        A.   No, I don't have page 12.  It's missing.

10        Q.   Well --

11        A.   Or maybe it is somewhere else in the batch of pages --

12        Q.   Yeah, you may be able to see it --

13        A.   Not in its right place.

14        Q.   You may be able to see it on the screen if you don't have a hard

15     copy.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  That is exactly why I'm up, because we don't have

17     it on the screen.  Maybe if you can --

18             MR. HANNIS:  It's -- it's 65 ter 10472.

19             I don't know if the usher can have a look to see if he can help

20     to locate it.  I ...

21             Thank you.

22        Q.   And Mr. Gracanin, what was his position?

23        A.   Mr. Gracanin was the federal minister of the interior.  The most

24     responsible person, the most highly placed person in the federal SUP.

25        Q.   And were you told why it was necessary for you to volunteer for

Page 13527

 1     this assignment?

 2        A.   Well, Kertes believed that we who came from Bosnia to the federal

 3     authorities should not be sitting there in the federal authorities.  He

 4     thought instead it was our duty, our moral duty, to go to our native

 5     territory.  So by the nature of things I was supposed to go to Bosnia to

 6     place myself at the disposal of the Bosnian authorities and assume

 7     responsibilities that fall within the purview of the Bosnian SUP.  It was

 8     not a voluntarily departure, and I must confess that the way I was sent

 9     was something I didn't find very appropriate, but I could do nothing

10     about it.  I don't have the right to refuse an order by my superior

11     command.

12        Q.   And in terms of your -- your service with the federal SUP for

13     this assignment, you were told to go on vacation but while you were in

14     Bosnia, or in the RS, you were -- you continued to be paid by the federal

15     SUP and that counted toward your retirement in the federal SUP?

16        A.   Well, I was an employee of the federal SUP and that was never in

17     question.  But to make things look more authentic, we were not going

18     there as members of the federal SUP.  They were sending us there as

19     volunteers and we received formal decisions on annual leave, whereas, we

20     were in fact officially sent to Bosnia and Herzegovina and I had all the

21     authorisations and papers and everything as a member of the federal SUP.

22     And an according to the legislation prevailing then, we had powers on the

23     territory of every republic, if we were on official mission there.  But

24     we were sent there as volunteers and we were represented as volunteers

25     because we left our federal IDs behind and we received new IDs upon

Page 13528

 1     arrival there and we became officially policemen of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   In -- in terms of trying to narrow down the date when this

 3     occurred, I'd like to show you an exhibit.  This is Exhibit P1144.

 4             Mr. Davidovic, in preparing for your testimony today, did you

 5     have occasion to listen to a number of intercepted telephone

 6     conversations?

 7        A.   Yes.  Several conversations were played to me, listening to some

 8     of them I was alone.  When I listened to others, there were some other

 9     people present, and I reviewed all of that.

10        Q.   This first one is one dated the 6th of May, 1992, with

11     Pero Mihajlovic and he is talking to a person he calls Comrade Secretary.

12     Do you know who the other speaker in that conversation was?

13        A.   That's the federal minister; that is the federal secretary --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who is informing him of our arrival

16     in Republika Srpska.  That's the date when we got there.  And after that

17     date came the conversation marked 43 here.  It says it was the 6th of

18     April but it could only have been later because only after that

19     conversation, when our federal secretary was informed did this other

20     conversation with Kertes occur.  I think I explained this to you during

21     proofing.

22        Q.   You did, thank you.  I think the interpreter didn't catch the

23     name of the federal secretary.  Could you repeat that, please.

24        A.   Pero Mihajlovic was talking to the federal secretary of the

25     interior, Petar Gracanin, who was a colonel-general and that's how we

Page 13529

 1     addressed him, comrade general.  He was one of the veterans of the

 2     national liberation war, a member of the partisan movement and decorated

 3     as such.

 4        Q.   This telephone call, Mr. Mihajlovic says he is in Vrace and that

 5     you Mico Davidovic, Deputy Commander of the brigade, were with him.

 6             If I understand what you are saying correctly, this is a visit

 7     you made to the RS before the meeting with Kertes and Gracanin when you

 8     were ordered to volunteer and take a group to go help the RS; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's what I just clarified.

10        Q.   Now, if you could take a look at another one.  This is

11     Exhibit P1125.

12             This is another telephone -- intercepted telephone conversation

13     in which you are listed as one of the speakers.  And the date indicated

14     is 17 May 1992.  Did you have a -- is this one of the ones you listened

15     to?

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Could you give us

17     a reference to the tab number?

18             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry, this is tab 11.

19        A.   Yes, I listened to that conversation.  It's a conversation

20     between me and Mr. Stanisic when I had already arrived in Sarajevo and

21     when I called to say that I was there, that I am settled in my

22     accommodation and that I was located in Vrace.

23        Q.   Would this phone call have been after your conversation and the

24     instruction from Kertes and Gracanin to volunteer and go to the RS?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13530

 1        Q.   Thank you.  One more.  Tab 12; Exhibit P1127.

 2             This is a phone conversation from -- from May but there's no --

 3     no precise date indicated.  Do you recall having listened to this

 4     conversation?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did you recognise the speakers listed, Mr. Gracanin and

 7     Mico Stanisic?  Did you recognise their voices?

 8        A.   Yes, yes, that's what they told me.  That's the conversation

 9     between Petar Gracanin and the minister of the interior of

10     Republika Srpska, Mico Stanisic.

11        Q.   And in their conversation one of the things that Gracanin talks

12     about is having you go and report to General Mladic.  Is that something

13     you did when you were in the RS on that first trip, after you had been

14     directed to go by Gracanin and Kertes?

15        A.   Yes.  Well this conversation was about informing Mico Stanisic by

16     Petar Gracanin that I was there, that I should go to General Ratko Mladic

17     to report to him and to provide assistance if needed to him, because

18     Petar Gracanin had spoken directly with General Mladic to say that I was

19     coming, and I was directed to go to him with a request from Mico

20     Stanisic, and this was also arranged between Petar Gracanin and

21     Ratko Mladic in a previous conversation.

22        Q.   While we're looking at intercepts, let me do one last one and

23     we'll be done with those.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Could we have a look at tab 73.  This is 65 ter

25     number -- oh, I'm sorry, it's Exhibit P1131.

Page 13531

 1        Q.   Do you recall having listened to this one during your proofing?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did you recognise the voice of Mr. Stanisic on that conversation?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you see that the -- the other speaker is listed as

 6     Nedjelko Zugic.  Do you know who he was?

 7        A.   I clarified that straight away.  I don't know who this

 8     Nedeljko Zugic is.  As far as I remember, if that's the one, there was

 9     one Zugic who was from Olivo.  I think he was Crisis Staff commander or

10     something like that.  I'm not quite sure, if that's the Zugic you mean.

11     And I know that he was involved later in a scandal with shipments of

12     cigarettes and liquor to areas inhabited by Muslims and there was some

13     trade going on, something like that.  If that is that man.  I'm not even

14     sure who -- which Zugic it is.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now return to your statement.  And after you

16     got the direction to go on vacation and take yourself to the

17     Republika Srpska, you tell us in your statement that you and your

18     colleagues flew to Belgrade -- from Belgrade to Pale by a helicopter.

19     And then from Pale you went in five Pinzgauers to Vrace when and where

20     did you meet Mico Stanisic when you went on this first trip?

21        A.   When we were sent to Republika Srpska, we flew out from

22     Batajinica by helicopter to Pale.  There was sports centre with a large

23     field belonging to some local club.  And then we went down to the base

24     which was the station, the base of the local MUP and that's where

25     Mico Stanisic was based and that was in fact the training centre at

Page 13532

 1     Vrace.  That was the headquarters of the Ministry of Interior.  And upon

 2     arriving there, I did not immediately meet with Mico.  I think it was

 3     only into my third day there that we met very late at night around 11

 4     p.m.  I told him I was settled there, and after that, Petar Gracanin was

 5     given a telephone call to be told that I was there.  That was my first

 6     encounter with Mico Stanisic in the locality of Vrace.

 7        Q.   Had you known Mico Stanisic before this occasion?

 8        A.   Yes.  I knew Mico from earlier on.  He worked for the Ministry of

 9     Interior, but I personally met him when I was on that commission of the

10     federal SUP, and we visited the Security Services Centres, inter alia,

11     Sarajevo, and that's when I met Mico.  I cannot confirm exactly what his

12     position was, whether he was the deputy head of the Sarajevo centre or

13     the chief of the service.  I know that we came across him in the office

14     and he told us about the problems in the area covered by the centre of

15     Sarajevo.  That's when I met him for the first time.

16             I think that we saw each other again after that, but that was our

17     first official meeting and the first time we met, and that is what I

18     remember.

19             At that time, there was still a single SUP of the BH and

20     Minister Delimustafic held that position.

21        Q.   When you met Mr. Stanisic in Vrace, what conversation, if any,

22     did you have with him about why you were there and what you were supposed

23     to do?

24        A.   It was a brief conversation, by way of information, in terms of

25     whether we had found accommodation.  We briefly inquired how many people

Page 13533

 1     there were and what should be done.  And then I was briefly told that my

 2     role and function would be to help constitute their special unit that was

 3     then partly put up in Vrace and it consisted in part from the former

 4     special unit that was stationed in the area of the school in Vrace and we

 5     were supposed to try to establish a special unit and train it for special

 6     tasks that would be put before it.

 7        Q.   Were you actually able to do that?  And tell us about that.

 8        A.   It was hard to do anything at the time, and that quickly at that.

 9             When we arrived there, I think that 12 people were singled out

10     from the special unit that had existed until then.  It was either nine or

11     12.  I don't know why I confuse the two figure but I keep confusing them

12     all the time.  Then these people came and we reached agreement in

13     principle with the commander of that unit.  At that time, it was Karisik

14     down there.  Repija had been wounded and he was transferred to Belgrade

15     and he was hospitalised at the VMA.  We had agreed that those members of

16     the special unit who were down there and who had undergone this training

17     would take ten members of the reserve force, and then with one of our men

18     and with one of their former members of the special forces, I mean, very

19     often this term is being used for people who have nothing to do with the

20     special forces and who are not trained adequately, or whatever, but they

21     say that they are.  And they tried to work with these people on a

22     day-to-day basis to make sure that they can protect themselves, that they

23     know how to use weapons, that they know how to take up certain premises.

24     Well, this is how I speak.  I cannot speak fast -- I cannot speak slower

25     and I cannot speak more loudly.

Page 13534

 1        Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry, I was giving you a signal to slow down because

 2     it looked like the interpreters were requesting that.

 3             All right.  We saw earlier in the intercept between Mico Stanisic

 4     and Mr. Gracanin, there was a -- talk about you reporting to

 5     General Mladic.  In paragraph 54 of your statement - that's page 14 of

 6     the English - I'm not sure which page of the B/C/S paragraph 54 is.  You

 7     talk about going to Lukavica Barracks and a meeting you had there with

 8     General Mladic and Radovan Karadzic.

 9             Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes.  I did not go to report to Ratko Mladic.  That wasn't my

11     duty to report to Ratko Mladic.  He was not my superior officer.  I was

12     actually sent by my own minister, the federal minister, Petar Gracanin to

13     report to Ratko Mladic.  Now why was I supposed to call on Ratko Mladic?

14             First of all, if I need more equipment, arms, ammunition, any

15     kind of equipment because at the time it was still the federal army just

16     like the federal SUP was still in existence.  Whatever I needed I should

17     ask General Ratko Mladic for.  And in that way, I could get the equipment

18     I needed and that was the main reason why I came to pay this visit to

19     General Ratko Mladic.

20             When I actually came to General Ratko Mladic, there was another

21     general in his office.  I think he was a Montenegrin.  I know later on

22     that he was commander of the Drina Corps in the area in Bajina Basta,

23     towards Skelani, Bratunac, Srebrenica, but I don't know exactly what his

24     name is.  I couldn't remember.

25             A few minutes later, after about 10 or 15 minutes,

Page 13535

 1     Mr. Radovan Karadzic walked into this room where General Mladic was.  As

 2     he walked in I took advantage of that to inform General Ratko Mladic and

 3     Radovan Karadzic at the same time with a particular occurrence, namely

 4     that there was a great deal of looting that was being carried out by

 5     members of the reserve force and some informal groups that were milling

 6     about Vrace.  They barged into other people's apartments, took away

 7     things from these apartments and then probably sold them somewhere, took

 8     them away.  I asked for measures to be taken and for protection to be

 9     ensured and then when things were being seized by the polices they should

10     be handed over at a particular place.  And then I brought this up with

11     General Mladic and at the same time, thereby, Karadzic as well.

12        Q.   And in your statement you indicated that in this discussion

13     Mr. Karadzic said that while you should try to prevent looting, there

14     should be no arrest of Serbs or conflicts between Serbs.  Did

15     General Mladic respond to that?

16        A.   General Ratko Mladic spoke then as well.  He said that some kind

17     of central warehouses should be established and whatever was taken from

18     persons, I mean, if something had been looted, if it was the result of a

19     crime, that then all of these things should be given to families of

20     fallen veterans.  Radovan Karadzic also said that such looting should be

21     prevented and that should disallowed.  However, what we should pay

22     attention to is that Serb should not take Serb, that a Serb should not

23     draw weapon against a Serb, as it were, heaven forbid.  So that there

24     would not be a conflict between people of Serb ethnicity because that

25     would be terrible and what would happen would be like what happened in

Page 13536

 1     the Second World War, that's exactly what he said.  And that thesis went

 2     on --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not understand the last

 4     part of the sentence.

 5             MR. HANNIS:

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Davidovic, the interpreter indicates that they

 7     weren't able to hear the last part of your sentence of what you just

 8     said.  Could you repeat that, if you recall what it was?  It's after your

 9     reference to the Second World War.

10        A.   I was saying that Radovan Karadzic insisted that a Serb should

11     not shoot at a Serb or kill a Serb and that we should not go back to the

12     Second World War when there was a clash between the partisans and the

13     Chetnik.  It was a conflict between the Serbs, actually the conflict

14     between the partisans and the Chetniks.  He meant that this should not

15     happen again during this war, that war and that this should be prevented

16     even if it were done at the expense of not punishing perpetrators of

17     crimes.  I have more to say about that, but I'll do it later.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, then let me move to paragraph 58 of your statement.

19     It's page 16 of the B/C/S and page 15 of the English.

20             You say there that after this meeting at Lukavica Barracks with

21     Mladic and Karadzic that Mr. Stanisic, Mico Stanisic, called you into his

22     office at the Hotel Kikinkda at Pale and there were just the two of you,

23     and you explained to him the situation as you saw it.

24             What was the situation as you saw it?  What did you explain to

25     him at this meeting?

Page 13537

 1        A.   The two of us talked and I said then to Minister Stanisic that I

 2     had seen that I had witnessed the organised looting of property,

 3     especially belonging to persons of Muslim ethnicity, that apartments were

 4     being broken into and that things were being carried out of these

 5     apartments.  Also I asked him what these people were doing, these people

 6     who were driving around some Golf cars, part of the members of the

 7     Dusko Malovic's units.  Where do these Golfs come from?  What were they

 8     doing with them?  Mico told me in respect of the first part and since

 9     there was a war going on things happened as they happened, and it was

10     only natural that certain crimes were being committed and that we should

11     work on preventing them.

12             As for the Golfs and their driving them, they had the concent,

13     or, rather, President Karadzic gave his concent to the Ministry of

14     Interior that they could get the equipment that was indispensable for the

15     Ministry of Interior at the time by selling these Golfs.  I don't know.

16     I have to repeated that, I don't remember whether it happened at that

17     particular meeting but I think that it happened later.  At another

18     meeting, Mico offered me a Golf but I don't think it was that first time.

19     I think it was around the second time when we were talking after the new

20     developments that took place at the time.  He asked me, Do you need a

21     car?  Is there any need for that, and I said there was no need and that

22     ended that particular conversation so we didn't discuss it any further.

23             I mean, I think there's a difference there.  It wasn't during

24     that first conversation that the Golfs were brought up.  It was after a

25     while.

Page 13538

 1        Q.   Paragraph 62 you mention that you -- after this meeting --

 2     paragraph 59, I'm sorry, after this meeting you and your staff were sent

 3     by Mr. Stanisic to Mount Jahorina to help secure the government officials

 4     and facilities.  And in paragraph 62 you say that you stayed there for

 5     about ten days before you returned to Belgrade.  Paragraph 62 is at page

 6     16 of the English and page 17 of the B/C/S.

 7             You say that:

 8             "Prior to leaving, we were instructed to leave behind our weapons

 9     and equipment, including the five Pinzgauer and leave that with the new

10     RS MUP special purposes units headed by Milenko Karisik."

11             Who gave you that instruction to leave behind that equipment and

12     weapons and vehicles?

13        A.   I'll go back to that other paragraph, 59.

14             You mentioned something in relation to the meeting I had with

15     Stanisic.  And when Stanisic went to the Bistrica Hotel, when we went to

16     provide security for the government.

17             After staying at this school in Pale for about ten days we were

18     sent to the lines at the Jewish cemetery.  We spent two or three days

19     there, I think, at that line, and then I established contact with Petar

20     Gracanin, the federal minister, and I familiarised him with these

21     details, and I was saying, What are we doing here?  We were not sent here

22     to go to the front line.  We came with a certain duty and task to carry

23     it out.  And he agreed and he probably talked to Mico Stanisic, and after

24     that we, as a unit, were sent to Jahorina to provide security for the

25     government that was staying there in two or three hotels.  I cannot

Page 13539

 1     remember exactly.  It was hotel Jahorina and hotel Bistrica.

 2             And that's where the members of the government were, that's where

 3     they slept or where they were as an institution of Republika Srpska.

 4             When we stayed in the territory up at there at Jahorina, we had

 5     the opportunity of being right there where the government was and the

 6     government members were.  And on several occasions I had contacts with

 7     Minister Gracanin and I received an order from him because I was only

 8     answerable to him, and he issued me the following order:  That when we

 9     withdraw, we leave all the weapons and ammunition and equipment that we

10     have with them, even the vehicles, the Pinzgauers, and that we hand all

11     that over to their special unit, newly formed, and its commander

12     Milenko Karisik.  I think that Mico Stanisic knew about that as well.  He

13     wasn't there at the time that we were leaving, but I think that he knew

14     we left our equipment to them because our Pinzgauers had licence plates

15     and documents that indicated that they had belonged to the federal SUP.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now at paragraph -- beginning at paragraph 64 to

17     paragraph 101 of your statement, you talk a lot about the situation in

18     Bijeljina.  And after you returned to Belgrade, after this first visit,

19     when you left behind your equipment and the Pinzgauers, how long did you

20     stay in Belgrade before you were asked to return again to the RS,

21     approximately, if you remember?

22        A.   Well, I think about a month, but please don't take my word for

23     it.  I know that we came again in the second half of July to Bijeljina

24     and the difference was -- well, May, June, it could have been a month,

25     and then in the second half of July I arrived Bijeljina.

Page 13540

 1        Q.   Before you had returned to Belgrade on that first occasion, had

 2     you made a trip to Bijeljina during your first stay?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And who did you go with on that trip?

 5        A.   The first time I went from Pale to Bijeljina, I went with a group

 6     of members of my unit.  At the time, from Njegus, from the Ministry of

 7     the Interior, I got some passports.  I think -- well, I can't remember

 8     exactly.  There could have been about up to 2.000 passports.  I took them

 9     over and I handed them over to the Ministry of the Interior in Bijeljina,

10     and they issued me a certificate.  When I arrived Bijeljina, I found Pajo

11     -- I mean Pejo not Pajo, some kind of a self-styled general, whatever he

12     was, belonging to Arkan.  And then I found Sasa and some other persons

13     and they were staying there at the SUP, but they came considerably

14     earlier, the beginning of the war.

15        Q.   Let me stop you.  There I think it's almost time for our first

16     break.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, I have a question here.

18             I was wondering, on your witness list -- on your list of

19     documents, there 's indication that you would take 20 minutes for your

20     examination-in-chief.  On your list for witnesses for the week of

21     23 August, for this week, it says two hours.  Where did it go from 20

22     minutes to two hours?

23             I have a decision -- the Trial Chamber decision of 19 March,

24     2010, saying 20 minutes.  Did that change in the meantime?

25             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour, I think it changed and we were

Page 13541

 1     allowed an additional 2 hours and 40 minutes for a total of 3 hours.

 2     And I'm sorry that it says 20 minutes on there, but I was advised, and

 3     when checking, we had made a request to change his status from viva voce

 4     to 92 ter.  The initial decision was 20 minutes and we'd asked fro

 5     additional time in the subsequent filing.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Shall we check that on both sides during the

 7     break?

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, yes.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But can I just add before we adjourn that the

11     idea behind granting additional time beyond the 20 minutes for 92 ter

12     witnesses was to allow for the calling party to introduce new evidence

13     over and above what was already contained in his statement, and so far it

14     looks to me as if we have been systematically going through the witness's

15     92 ter statement and so nothing new has come up so far.

16             MR. HANNIS:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So where did the additional time -- what is the

18     basis for the additional time.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Two things in regard, Your Honour.

20             I'm trying -- I have to repeat some of what is said there just to

21     locate him in the point where I'm asking the question.  Then I am trying

22     to ask for elaboration or clarification about what is actually said in

23     the statement.

24             In addition, the portions of his statement where he speaks

25     directly about his contacts with Mico Stanisic I think need to be

Page 13542

 1     addressed live somewhat.  Because I know this has been raised in other

 2     cases that even though he is here for cross-examination, to the extent it

 3     goes directly to the acts and the conduct of the accused, there's a

 4     preference that that be lead life.  But if Your Honours are satisfied

 5     with what is in there, I can shortcut a lot of this, and I sense that is

 6     where you are.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, indeed.  And that's where the Rules are.

 8     Because the purpose of 92 ter is to save time by just admitting the

 9     92 ter statement and then allowing for the Defence to cross-examine

10     directly on the basis of that so we don't need to go through the earlier

11     statements.  It is really a waste of time.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I hear you, Judge.  I -- acting on my experience in

13     another case with another Judge.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE HALL:  So we will take the break now and resume in 20

15     minutes.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, while the witness is being escorted back

21     in, we have, during the break, been able to be reminded of our decision

22     of the 8th of June, on the application of the Office of the Prosecution

23     to be allowed additional time to introduce new material, and the result

24     of that decision was, as I said, for the reasons advanced by its motion

25     at the time, was to allow the Prosecution a total of two-hours to deal

Page 13543

 1     with this new material.  The -- yes, so a total of two hours.  And we

 2     are -- in other words so it is two hours, not three hours.  And as I

 3     said, the purpose of that decision was for the admission of material that

 4     was outside of what would have been in the witness's previous statements.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  So we are holding you to that decision of two hours,

 7     and we expect that in the remaining 48 minutes, I believe it is, that you

 8     would -- yes, the Registrar has confirmed that.  That in the remaining 48

 9     minutes that you would use it as it was intended to introduce new

10     material, and not, as Judge Harhoff said before the break, to spend the

11     time just emphasising or highlighting portions of the previous testimony.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I understand, Your Honour.  I researched it as well

13     and found the June 8 decision.  My mistake was I think the Prosecution's

14     application had been to ask for three.  We were awarded an additional

15     1:40 for a total of two.  I made a mistake when I asked someone to check

16     and I was informed it was three instead of two.  I will proceed and try

17     to finish well within my remaining 48 minutes.  I will, on occasion, be

18     going to a couple of things in the statement where I am trying to get a

19     little further answer to something that is in there and I may ask

20     something that is there just to put him in context.

21             JUDGE HALL:  we understand that.  But, of course, within your 48

22     minutes.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Understood.  Thank you.

24        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I want to -- I want to move now a little faster

25     than I've been going.  We are well covered because your prior testimony

Page 13544

 1     and your prior statement, I anticipate, will be in evidence.

 2             Paragraph 125, which is at page 131 of the English in your B/C/S

 3     statement, you talk about Arkan being controlled by the Serbian MUP, and

 4     you mentioned that Mico Stanisic went to that training camp, had been

 5     amazed to see how well it was run and the respect Arkan received from his

 6     men.

 7             I wanted to ask you, how did you know that Mico Stanisic went to

 8     Erdut?  What was your source of information about that?

 9        A.   I heard about that from Mico Stanisic because I saw him a day

10     before that.  He said that he would go to Erdut on the next day to visit

11     Arkan's camp and that I would see him the next day after he comes back

12     from the camp.  And when I did see him, when he saw how all that had been

13     equipped he was pleased and thrilled by everything that he seen there.

14        Q.   And did you have any conversation with Mr. Stanisic about the

15     presence of Arkan and his men and what they were doing in Bijeljina,

16     Brcko, and the other territories where they had been seen in action in --

17     in the RS?

18        A.   I did not elaborate on that with him.  There was no need.  From

19     day one, even before the outbreak of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

20     people knew about it.  Arkan came to Bijeljina.  He did what he did

21     there.  He committed a series of crime, murders, robberies, that was

22     repeated several times already.  I don't see there's any need to discuss

23     it any further.  Anything he did, he did with the consents and control of

24     the people from the MUP of Serbia.  Primarily, Frenki and

25     Jovica Stanisic.

Page 13545

 1        Q.   To your knowledge, was Mico Stanisic aware of that?

 2        A.   I assume he was.  He could not have not known, especially because

 3     he received information from several sources.  General Mladic himself was

 4     against these members.  There were quite a few complaints in respect of

 5     their behaviour and it was well-known what they were doing.  He was

 6     appointed minister later and he probably had had insight into everything

 7     that was going on.  He had the media there as well and had every

 8     opportunity to learn about all of that a lot earlier.

 9             Also, he occasion to encounter those people of his there.  They

10     moved about freely without any restraints.  They had full freedom.

11        Q.   And did you ever ask him why he wasn't taking any action against

12     Arkan and his men?

13        A.   Well, when we talked when I came with the intention of disarming

14     the paramilitaries, I was told then that quite simply they could not have

15     opposed them.  After all, they came under the guise of some kind of

16     patriots to take part in this defence war as they called.  However, very

17     soon, they turned into their very contradiction, first when Arkan's Men

18     came and then these others who introduced themselves as some kind of free

19     fighters or some kind of patriot, usually they would first report to the

20     Crisis Staffs.  They provided all the necessary logistics to them, food,

21     accommodation, et cetera, however usually these paramilitary formations,

22     after a certain period of time, once they got to know the terrain, they

23     would refuse to go to the front line and would be located in the urban

24     areas.  They killed and looted.  They, in this way, mistreated legal

25     citizens, Muslims.  They liquidated some of them and other they

Page 13546

 1     transferred across the Drina River, whatever they did they robbed them of

 2     their property, they sold it further on and accumulated certain material

 3     goods in Serbia and that was so wide spread.  There was practicality no

 4     place where they were not staying.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I want to -- I want to turn to paragraph 150 of your

 6     statement, which is at page 37 of the English.  And I'll have the B/C/S

 7     reference in a moment.

 8             From paragraphs 151 to 165 you talk about the situation in

 9     Bijeljina after August 1992.  And you make a reference to some killings

10     of Muslim families in Bijeljina, which you say was part of a plan to

11     intimidate and drive most of the rest of the remaining Muslims out.

12             The B/C/S page is page 39 for paragraph 150.

13             And I want to show you tab 65.  This is an exhibit in evidence,

14     P1543.

15             With the usher's help, I would like to hand you a hard copy

16     because I want to direct you to a page that's sort in the middle.  It's

17     page 67 of the B/C/S and page 65 of the English.

18             I put a sticky on the page there for you.  Yes.  On the

19     right-hand page.  This exhibit is part of a file from the regional

20     prosecutor's office in Bijeljina, dated the 14th of April, 2005.  The

21     particular page I referred you to is a statement from Mico Stanisic that

22     was provided in response to that investigation.  And in the paragraph --

23     it's the fourth or the third paragraph of his statement, he's talking

24     about the special detachment of Dusko Malovic's --

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a moment, if I

Page 13547

 1     may.

 2             Your Honours, part of this documentation that the Prosecutor is

 3     now trying to show to the witness relates to events that are not covered

 4     by the indictment, and a statement by Mr. Stanisic is being used,

 5     although we don't know whether Mr. Stanisic is going to testify in his

 6     own case, so I think it is inadmissible to use his statements for any --

 7     from any other proceedings until he decides whether he will testify in

 8     this trial.  And there is also his interview given to the OTP, so we

 9     should look into whether there are legal possibilities for using such

10     documents that haven't yet seen their epilogue in trials in Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina.  So perhaps it might be inappropriate to use them before

12     this court.

13             And I believe we've made a similar objection in a previous case,

14     or my colleague made it.  And the Trial Chamber instructed that such

15     documents may be used only very cautiously unless they touch upon the

16     subjects of the indictment.

17             MR. HANNIS:  That's an interesting proposition of the law.  I

18     would like to see some citation for that proposition.  Your Honour,

19     Mr. Stanisic made this statement the last part of it says:

20             "I've written this statement with my own hand.  I accept every

21     word as my own and I signed it with my own hand.  Signed Mico Stanisic."

22             The original is a hand-written document.  Now if the Defence want

23     to challenge authenticity and say, That is not his, well that is one

24     thing.  But otherwise any of the arguments just made should go to the

25     weight of this.  This incident, I know, is not one of the scheduled

Page 13548

 1     killings in our indictment, it is one that the Prosecution sought to add

 2     at the time we did the amended indictment.  That was denied, but I think

 3     in the decision it was indicated that the Prosecution could lead evidence

 4     about that for other purposes, such as showing a pattern, et cetera.

 5             Part of what I'm trying to do now is this particular statement

 6     has to do with some issues of credibility and identification of people

 7     holding certain positions at certain times, and I think it's entirely

 8     proper for me to go into it.  It was noticed on the list and I don't

 9     think there's any issue that this is Mr. Stanisic's statement that he

10     provided to the authorities in -- in -- in Bosnia during an

11     investigation.

12             JUDGE HALL:  In terms of separating the two issues, I suspected

13     that the first part of Mr. Cvijetic's objection to which was the second

14     part of your response, the answer would -- as you have indicated been the

15     rule about similar fact evidence.  But may we have a moment to deal with

16     the other part of Mr. Cvijetic's objection.

17             MR. HANNIS:  May I raise one other point in connection with that.

18             You know last week we had an issue come up with an objection sort

19     at the end of the Prosecution's presentation of evidence about something

20     that was in the 92 ter package.  Here this is a document that was listed

21     in our exhibits to be used.  There was no objection raised, even though I

22     sent an e-mail to Defence last week and said, Please advise me if you

23     have any objections to any of these so we can discuss it beforehand.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 13549

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, we would, of course, consider any

 3     authority that you have to put before the Chamber in support of your

 4     proposition that the -- as we understand your proposition to be, that the

 5     Prosecution could not put into evidence a statement made by the accused

 6     out of court prior to the commencement of these proceedings.

 7             But until such time as we have had a chance to consider whatever

 8     authorities you would wish to rely on to support that proposition, and,

 9     of course, until we are persuaded that we should accept such authority,

10     we would permit Mr. Hannis to continue the -- along the course that he is

11     pursuing.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, you see that paragraph --

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I -- I would like to

15     respond.  May I refer to your decision in which you refused the expansion

16     of the indictment to include the events which Mr. Stanisic writes about

17     in this statement.  So I believe it is in your own decision that we may

18     not deal with these incidents that are not the subject of the indictment.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the -- the separate issue as I understand it,

20     apart from the statement having been made by Mr. Stanisic about this --

21     facts outside of the indictment, the -- you may have been present last

22     week when I confessed my own difficulty with the -- what is known in

23     the -- in other systems as similar fact evidence.  Nevertheless, it is a

24     well-settled rule that such evidence is admissible although they touch on

25     matters not specified in the indictment.  The ordinary rule in criminal

Page 13550

 1     proceedings, of course, being that relevance is determined by the

 2     indictment.

 3             But similar fact -- the admissibility of similar fact is so well

 4     settled, that I don't know that we need trouble ourselves with -- with

 5     explaining the rules for it.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just one more thing, Your Honours.

 7     Of course we will comply with any decision you make, but I'm afraid we

 8     are going into the sphere of the rights of the accused to decide how he

 9     will defend himself and we are prejudging his decision.

10             You said that the Statute guarantees his right that he remains

11     silent and I believe we are introducing something through a back door

12     even before he decided whether he will testify in his own case or not.

13             JUDGE HALL:  You may have observed, Mr. Cvijetic, that I tried to

14     phrase the response to your objection about the statement made by

15     Mr. Stanisic in such a manner as to not close the door to your seeking to

16     persuade the Chamber that it should wholly disregard it at a later stage.

17     And should it turn out that we are so persuaded by the authorities that

18     you produce to support your proposition, we would, as trained Judges have

19     the ability to expunge from our considerations any impressions that we

20     may have formed, as a result of receiving the evidence.  But, at this

21     stage, it strikes us that it is such a novel proposition that we think

22     the proper course is to allow Mr. Hannis to continue.  As I said, it is

23     open to you to return to the matter at the appropriate stage.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, returning again to that document, and what

Page 13551

 1     Mr. Stanisic says about how Dusko Malovic's unit came to be sent to

 2     Bijeljina, which he said was in order to protect the security of the

 3     citizens of Bijeljina, especially non-Serbs:

 4             "I issued an order to have a platoon led by Dusko Malovic sent to

 5     Bijeljina and put at the disposal and further use of the head of the

 6     public security station, Mico Davidovic and under the full control of the

 7     MUP senior staff [sic] Tomo Kovac and Cedo Kljajic who were staying in

 8     Bijeljina at the time ..."

 9             My first question to you is:  Were you head of the public

10     security station in Bijeljina in September 1992, or at any time in 1992?

11        A.   No, I wasn't, and I believe the allegations in this statement are

12     not correct.  Although let's take it in order.

13             I was never the head of the police station, especially not in the

14     period when the unit of Dusko Malovic arrived, nor was Tomo Kovac in the

15     SUP there, nor did he come to call or was appointed, nor was Cedo Kljajic

16     appointed there.  So I can't really understand what this is about.

17        Q.   Do you recall who was --

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, it might be important later.  40:8, I

19     believe, the witness said the -- different about Cedo Kljajic being only

20     appointed.

21             Maybe can you clarify this with the witness, Mr. Hannis.

22             MR. HANNIS:

23        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, could you tell us what you were saying about

24     Cedo Kljajic and being in Bijeljina in September 1992; if you know?

25        A.   Well, the questions you're asking are out of context, so I can't

Page 13552

 1     get to all the details.

 2             To give you a complete answer I would have to go into a much

 3     broader explanation, but I'll try.

 4             When the decision was made for the MUP of Republika Srpska to be

 5     moved to Bijeljina, in this building of the MUP of Bijeljina, the first

 6     to come was Cedo Kljajic as an assistant or deputy to Mico Stanisic, and

 7     I believe Devedlaka also came.  He was under-secretary for state

 8     security, that is the secret police.  And they were the one who set up

 9     the interior authorities in Bijeljina.  They were based in the building

10     of the MUP and they started to work.  And on one occasion when I came, if

11     you want to hear this, together with Dragan Adnan, I found Cedo Kljajic

12     typing on a typewriters filling in a driving licence with the reference

13     to a motor vehicle that was seized from some people in Brcko, and I asked

14     him, What are you doing?  What kind of driving licence is this?  And then

15     he told me that he had received approval from the minister to do this, to

16     support his family, to be able to work and live, that he had no other

17     sources of income and that it was his legal right that he received, in

18     order to be able to work, if that's what you wanted to know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Concerning this statement Mr. Stanisic made about the

20     killings of three families in Bijeljina in September 1992, allegedly by

21     the Dusko Malovic group, did you ever have any conversation with

22     Mico Stanisic about that and his connection, if any, to those events?

23        A.   I will inform you briefly.  On one occasion I met with

24     Mr. Stanisic in Sremska Mitrovica and Stanisic had some questions about

25     why I talked to the investigators of the Tribunal, whether he was also

Page 13553

 1     interesting to them, whether I had given any statements and I said, Yes,

 2     I talked to them, they also asked about him and in that context, his

 3     activities concerning the disarming of paramilitaries in Zvornik and

 4     other places was also discussed.  And as far as this family from

 5     Bijeljina is concerned, I said that question had not been asked and then

 6     he said, Please, don't place me in that context, because he doesn't want

 7     to get involved and he doesn't want me to place him in any context

 8     related to that.  And that's the first time this families with mentioned

 9     with him.

10             The name begins with an S; I can't remember the name of the

11     family.  That's the conversation that took place.  And otherwise, since,

12     in the first half of August I was in Bijeljina, we were disarming these

13     paramilitaries, after that I went to Montenegro where I stayed in Plevlje

14     to arrest the group led by Ceko Dacovic [phoen], and when I returned from

15     Montenegro three months later I found Dusko Malovic in Belgrade, in the

16     so-called Bosnian villa, and when I asked him, Dusko what happened, who

17     killed those people there?  Dusko said Drago Vukovic ordered it at that

18     time.  Drago Vukovic was the under-secretary of the secret police in

19     Bijeljina, in the Bijeljina centre.  And he led all the activities

20     related to that, and that conversation that I had with Dusko Malovic

21     happened without Mico Stanisic.  He arrived later.  He arrived with

22     Frenki Simatovic to this Bosnian villa.  They wanted to talk to me about

23     something.  However, when Frenki came, he asked me, Who gave you the

24     right to arrest Red Berets in Bijeljina and we had -- we locked horns

25     there.  We almost -- it almost came to a fist fight.  I left.  After

Page 13554

 1     that, Mico Stanisic stayed behind and not a word was said about this

 2     family that is mentioned in his statement.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I will stop there and see what I need

 5     to deal with on re-direct.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Cross-examination.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning Witness.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Once you have answered this question to Mr. Hannis, I don't think

12     you gave a complete answer, and the question was:  Were you able to place

13     Mr. Stanisic in any context related to these events?

14        A.   I said I didn't and I couldn't.  I thought I was going answer

15     Mr. Hannis to this question in paragraph 150.  He asked me about the

16     implementation of the policies of the Crisis Staffs in Bijeljina related

17     to the ethnic cleansing in Bijeljina and the killing of Muslims but I

18     didn't give that answer because Mr. Hannis moved to another question.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Davidovic, in addition to the caution that

20     Mr. Hannis would have given you about slowing down your replies to allow

21     interpretation, this is especially important during cross-examination by

22     Mr. Cvijetic, and in turn counsel for Mr. Zupljanin.  Because you speak

23     the same language, you have to remember to allow a gap between the

24     question, an interval, between the question and your response so the

25     interpretation may flow smoothly.  Thank you.

Page 13555

 1             Mr. Cvijetic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'll try.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I hope you don't mind I'll have to ask you to

 5     repeat your answer and I will repeat the question, just in case.

 6             So the question was: Then or now or at any time were you able to

 7     associate Mr. Stanisic in any way with this crime, the killing of the

 8     Sarajlic family, and please repeat your answer?

 9        A.   I was not able to associate Mr. Stanisic with that killing in any

10     way, because, as far as this killing is concerned and the other killings

11     in Bijeljina are concerned, that took place before Mico Stanisic became

12     head of that ministry and I also believe that Mico Stanisic didn't even

13     know about that killing, because in this local part of the ministry it

14     was being covered up because when this family was found murdered,

15     somebody from the municipal authorities ordered that these corpses be

16     thrown into the water so that the river may carry them away.  That's what

17     I heard.

18             So there is no statement or interview where I was able to mention

19     Mico Stanisic as in any way associated with this crime this Bijeljina.  I

20     think that's clear.

21        Q.   I already objected to Mr. Hannis's dealing with this topic but I

22     want to finish this.  Are you able to associate Mr. Stanisic with this

23     local policy or local politics and the people who conducted that policy?

24        A.   I can't, because that all happened and all started before

25     Mr. Stanisic came to be the head of the police.  It started when the SDS

Page 13556

 1     came into power in Bijeljina and started to establish themselves and

 2     their government in terms of ethnic cleansing.

 3        Q.   Give me just a yes-or-no answer.  Are you able to associate him

 4     with that kind of policy at the local level?

 5        A.   Well, he wasn't there at the time.  He couldn't be associated

 6     with that in any way.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Let's finish with this topic.

 8             Let's then go back to your early days.

 9             I'll follow your statement in parallel with your testimony in the

10     Krajisnik case and compare, but don't hold it against me if I look at the

11     papers too much, but I hope I'll finish within the allocated time.

12             You claimed and you continue to assert that after the multi-party

13     elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina you personally did not accept the offer

14     to join the Serbian Democratic Party; correct?

15        A.   Yes, that's correct.

16        Q.   You stated as the main reason that you did not accept the idea

17     that political parties should be organised as national parties.

18        A.   That's absolutely correct.

19        Q.   You will agree with me that there existed also a legal reason why

20     you, as a policeman, could not be a member of a political party or

21     involved in politics.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   These regulations, I believe, still do not permit policemen to be

24     involved in politics because the two activities are incompatible.

25        A.   That was so then, and it is so now.

Page 13557

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, just to be totally clear on this,

 3     in your first question, at that time, you asked about a policeman -- you

 4     said, "... a policeman could not be a member of a political party or be

 5     involved in politics."

 6             And the witness answers, "yes."

 7             And then still for the -- for the -- at this moment, it is not

 8     permitted for policemen to be involved in politics.

 9             Answer: Yes.

10             Does that also mean still at this time that policemen cannot be

11     member of a political party, Mr. Witness?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Policemen could never be members of

13     political parties or be involved in politics.  That was the case before

14     the war and it is still law.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. CVIJETIC:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic, I looked at the Law on Internal

18     Affairs of the then Socialist Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I found

19     that there existed a legal possibility, and that was followed in

20     practice, in fact, that members of the ministry, which was not called

21     ministry at the time, it was scald the Secretariat for Internal Affairs,

22     they could be transferred to the Federal Secretariat for Internal

23     Affairs.  I don't want to show that piece of legislation to the

24     Trial Chamber.

25             Just confirm that it is so.

Page 13558

 1        A.   Yes, absolutely correct.  The federal SUP was in fact constituted

 2     from staff from various republics.

 3        Q.   I'm more interested in another thing which I believe is more

 4     relevant to your testimony here.  There is an reverse option also, as a

 5     member of the Federal Secretariat for Internal Affairs could be

 6     transferred on a legal, profession mission to the territory of another

 7     republic and to legally carry out your work for which you are authorised.

 8     And not to waste time, I will immediately show you that you piece of

 9     legislation to see if I found the right article which enabled you to be

10     transferred to Republika Srpska Bosnia-Herzegovina as you said.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I call up P530.

12        Q.   I cannot tell you exactly which page it is, but Article ought to

13     help.  I'll give you the number of the Article.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just let me see ...

15             A correction, please.  It's P530.  And we need Article 64, 65,

16     and 66.  In the B/C/S version it is most probably page 10; and in the

17     English version it is page 11.  Or the other way around.  English page

18     10; Serbian, 11.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the English version, it's page

21     10.  In the Serbian version, it's page 9; I'm sorry.

22             We see in the English version the appropriate page.  We still

23     don't have the Serbian version.  Yes, there it is.

24        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I would like to ask you to look at the Articles.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can they please enlarge Articles

Page 13559

 1     64, 65, and 66 in the B/C/S version for you, please.  Yes, that's it.

 2     Thanks.

 3        Q.   Let me just add that this is the Law on Internal Affairs adopted

 4     by Republika Srpska.  And let me just add that I have compared it with

 5     the Law on Internal Affairs by the Socialist Republic of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina and they are completely identical.  So would you

 7     please --

 8             MR. HANNIS:  [Previous translation continues] ... object to

 9     Mr. Cvijetic testifying about what some document that he hasn't shown the

10     witness says.  That's something that he can submit to Your Honours at the

11     end of the case, but that is not something that he should present to the

12     witness without showing it to the witness.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have presented the

14     documents, the relevant provisions.  I just want to ask the witness about

15     it.

16        Q.   Let me just put this question to you, sir.  On the basis of these

17     precisions, can you understand it in the sense that you were authorised

18     to Republika Srpska or Bosnia and Herzegovina and to carry out the

19     assignments that are mentioned here, even though you were part of the

20     federal ministry?

21        A.   Yes, I do agree.  But I would like to add an explanation.

22             MR. HANNIS:  I'll let the witness finish his answer, but I would

23     like to object because this witness was not a member of the police in the

24     Republika Srpska.  He was a member of the police in the Federal Republic

25     of Yugoslavia.  This law applies to not his country, and Republika Srpska

Page 13560

 1     was not part of the FRY at the time.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is not my

 3     intention to elaborate a lot about the elements mentioned by Mr. Hannis

 4     because it's not relevant for this witness.  But I can say in response to

 5     the comment of Mr. Hannis, and it's not my intention to testify, the

 6     answer can be found in the constitution of Republika Srpska.  But I would

 7     just like to ask the witness to read the Article 66 where it is stated

 8     that upon arrival in the territory of Republika Srpska he would have all

 9     the authorities of police members of Republika Srpska.

10             MR. HANNIS:  The Article speaks for itself.  We don't need the

11     witness to read it.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the witness can read the Article and

13     Mr. Cvijetic can frame a question.

14             Let's move on.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   I'll put a direct question to you.

17             Could you please answer with yes or no.

18             As a member of the Federal Secretariat of the Interior, could you

19     come to Republika Srpska or Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and carry out

20     certain assignments, yes or no?  There is no need for explanation.

21        A.   No.  I cannot give you a yes-or-no answer.  This is an answer

22     that requires a proper answer.  Since you're asking me, I did have the

23     rights and authorities as you put to me, but according to earlier

24     constitution and the Law on Internal Affairs, the federal SUP had the

25     instructional overview rights and they were then transferred to

Page 13561

 1     republics.  We did not have rights or authorities except the State

 2     Security Service, of course, but if there was general interest or common

 3     interest in carrying out joint actions that needed to be done jointly,

 4     and to work together, then a mixed or joint team would be sent, and, for

 5     instance, we would come there to see if there were any violations of laws

 6     before the war.  That was the right of the relevant federal SUP.  It's

 7     not like in the federal police of the United States where they could --

 8     where they can come at any -- to any area and do whatever they want.  We

 9     could not do that.  That was not part of the federal authority, because

10     republics were autonomous in carrying out their internal affairs.

11        Q.   Thank you for the explanation.  I will not put any further

12     questions in relation to that topic.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, may I ask one clarification.

14             When you put -- put the question to the witness:

15             "As a member of the Federal Secretariat of the Interior, could

16     you come to the Republika Srpska or the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

17     and carry out certain assignments, yes or no?"

18             When you asked "certain assignments," do you mean assignments by

19     the Federal Secretariat of the Interior, or do you mean assignments by

20     the Republika Srpska?

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was precisely

22     what I had asked the witness to explain, what kind of assignments he

23     could come and assist with, and I think we did receive an answer from

24     him.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, no, we didn't receive a clear answer to

Page 13562

 1     that.  So my question would be:  Are we talking about assignments given

 2     by the -- the federal authorities or are we talking about assignments

 3     given to a federal -- member of the Federal Secretariat of the Interior

 4     given by the Republika Srpska?

 5             Mr. Witness?  In fact, I should put the question to -- to

 6     Mr. Zecevic [sic] because I want to know, what he is looking for, what

 7     his question is.  The question isn't clear to me.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It -- I would only -- the only

 9     thing I could do is put the question again to the witness and maybe

10     assist him by saying: To what kind of tasks were you sent or arrived to

11     carry out?  Were it those of common interest where one could find link

12     between federal and republic level.

13        A.   Well, this is a better question although it still requires a

14     longer answer.

15             I did not come in accordance to this Article that you've produced

16     to me.  In testimony in Krajisnik case, I explained this.  I came based

17     on a request issued by the organs of Republika Srpska, most probably the

18     ministry, although Karadzic in his conversations with Mr. Panic who was

19     president of the federal government and they had these talks in, I think,

20     Geneva, and Karadzic then explained that he is not able to fight against

21     paramilitary formations that had come from Serbia, and then Mr. Panic,

22     who was the prime minister of Serbia and Montenegro, offered some of the

23     federal SUP forces to help with the disarmament of these paramilitary

24     formations.  It was a political agreement between Republika Srpska and

25     the prime minister at the time, Mr. Panic.  And on the basis of this, I

Page 13563

 1     received a legal order.  I reported to the Ministry of the Interior, told

 2     Mr. Stanisic I was at his disposal.  I had the authority to disarm the

 3     paramilitary formations.

 4             I hope my answer was clear now.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Is it clear now, Your Honours?

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It is clear now.  I would have hoped it would

 7     have been clear with your question, but the witness's answer is clear

 8     now.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Since, in your answer to the Honourable Judge, you spoke about

11     paramilitary formations.  Let me show you document P591.

12             Mr. Davidovic, as you can see, this is a report on paramilitary

13     formations in the territory of the Serbian Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The author of this report, as can you see, is the

15     Main Staff department for intelligence and security affairs.

16             Can you see that?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Please look at this first page.  I'm not going to ask you about

19     too many details.  There's only one segment of this report that I'm

20     interested in.

21             Have you looked at it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  You've seen what the purpose of this report is, what are

24     the main elements related to paramilitary formations.  And what I'm

25     interested in can be found on the third page of this document in the

Page 13564

 1     B/C/S version.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see the third page

 3     of the B/C/S.  I'm interested in the second and the third

 4     paragraph there.  Let me just see where's the appropriate page in the

 5     English version.

 6        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, as can you see, the report deals with individual

 7     groups.  There's mention of Yellow Wasps, Zute Ose.  Apparently there is

 8     170 of them.  Furthermore, we have the further mention --

 9        A.   Red Berets and so on, yes.

10        Q.   According to your estimate, is this a realistic number of people

11     in these units?

12        A.   Yes, this is the factual situation.

13        Q.   Thank you.  So let's discuss this just in principle instead of

14     going into details.

15             This shows the actual situation in Republika Srpska at the time;

16     is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Davidovic, you will agree with me that the

19     Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska, in order to deal with such

20     numerous paramilitary formations needed support of all structures and

21     communities of Republika Srpska; am I right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In your statement, and also during the testimony, you stated that

24     Mr. Stanisic, indeed, had a special unit but that they didn't have

25     sufficient number of troops, nor were they trained well enough to

Page 13565

 1     properly, without assistance, deal with paramilitary formations and their

 2     crimes.

 3             Am I right in saying that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And that was one of the reasons why you arrived in

 6     Republika Srpska?

 7        A.   Yes.  My first arrival was in order to train the special units;

 8     and my second time, my second visit, was for the purpose of arresting

 9     these paramilitary formations.

10        Q.   You stated that you assisted with organisational formation of the

11     special unit, however that did you not have time to provide a detailed

12     training; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, yes, of course.  They were not trained at all.  That was

14     obvious.

15        Q.   Was that the reason why you had certain reserves concerning their

16     involvement in the operation aimed at Yellow Wasps?

17        A.   I didn't see them as a unit that fit to do a task such as this.

18        Q.   However, you do say that they managed to do their part of the

19     task and reach the seat of the Yellow Wasps, together with your units and

20     that, in a way, they did do their job; am I right?

21        A.   Yes, you are right.  But what they did was a marginal part of the

22     assignment.  I didn't give them an assignment that was of any great

23     importance.  That was my purpose.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Davidovic, the order and the authorisation for

25     this operation was issued by Mr. Mico Stanisic?

Page 13566

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This was a very secret action.  It was conducted secretly?

 3        A.   Yes, completely secretly.

 4        Q.   You received full authority to plan and carry out this operation

 5     in operative sense; am I right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   At the time of the preparations for this operation, you had also

 8     information that the members of the said unit, in addition to being

 9     involved in classical, typical, regular crime, were also involved in

10     crimes against civilian population.

11        A.   Yes, I have seen that personally.

12        Q.   The operation received its approval without any restrictions.

13     The task of the operation was to uncover any kind of criminal acts, no

14     matter what they may be.

15        A.   Yes.  Well, I told you about it.

16        Q.   As for the prosecution of war crimes, it was the military

17     prosecution organs and the military organs of the judiciary that were in

18     charge, right?

19        A.   Yes.  An explanation is required, isn't it?

20        Q.   Was that the reason why the unit of the military police took part

21     in it, if I'm not mistaken.  You may clarify that now, if you wish.

22        A.   I think that this answer needs to be explained a bit more.

23             During the planning of the action, I found out that, in addition

24     to grave crimes, robbery, murder, et cetera, I found out that in Celopak,

25     the Muslims were taken and detained at the community centre and some of

Page 13567

 1     them were even killed.  I came about this information when I went out to

 2     reconnoitre, to see how I could go to Zvornik and how I could overcome

 3     this paramilitary formation and deal with everything that they had done.

 4     Then I went to Han Pijesak with the intention of meeting with Tolimir,

 5     the chief of security of the Army of Republika Srpska.  When I talked to

 6     him, he told me that he knew what was going on in Zvornik, and for that

 7     reason he said that within the activity of my unit the military security

 8     should take part as well.  So Petar Salapura, a high-ranking security

 9     officer from the ranks of the Republika Srpska, was involved, together

10     with me, in the planning of this action that we carried out together,

11     with his security officer, yet another one who later on took over the

12     entire situation of the war crimes, the entire case of war crimes, he

13     actually took statements and was involved in the prosecution of war

14     crimes, in addition to those grave crimes that I had already referred to,

15     robbery, murder, and so on.

16        Q.   I think that we have come to a point when I should show you a

17     document.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D7 it is.  And I would like to

19     have that document on the screen.

20        Q.   We will deal with this document briefly.

21             As I followed your testimony in the Krajisnik case, I realised

22     that you had been shown this document.  You are aware of this

23     information, this document.  You saw it right?

24        A.   Sorry, the second page, Macar signed it, right?

25        Q.   Yes.  Yes, he did.

Page 13568

 1        A.   This is very brief and this information is very brief and only

 2     the very basic details have been written up here.  Yes.

 3        Q.   You said then, and I'm just going to repeat the question, does it

 4     actually faithfully reflect how the action developed, although it is

 5     rather brief and --

 6        A.   Yes, very briefly, it does reflect the situation.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we just move to the last

 8     page of this document.

 9        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Davidovic, what you stated is actually written here,

10     and it says that there is one person who is a war crime suspect and that

11     he was handed over to the military organs for further prosecution.

12     That's what you know and that is what is written here.  Is what is

13     written here correct?

14        A.   Yes.  He was transferred to the military garrison, to the

15     military police in Bijeljina.

16             Actually, I saw a document somewhere.  Now I don't know whether

17     it was a document that came from you or from the OTP.  I think that it

18     was a military security captain who took a statement from him, but now I

19     cannot recall who it was that showed me this document.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure what

21     the right time for a break would be.  I have just prepared this document

22     for the witness so that we could deal with it.

23             So would that be all right?  Oh, it is all right.  Okay.  Then we

24     are going to deal with 1D39 -- actually, it's been given a new number.

25     It received a new number the other day.  It is actually P, P1539.  It's a

Page 13569

 1     Prosecution Exhibit.

 2        Q.   The print is very small, so can he just have a look at it?  Can

 3     it be zoomed in so that he would see whether that is the statement that

 4     he referred to?

 5        A.   Yes, that is the statement that I had referred to.  It's from the

 6     military police and that's the statement that was given to them.

 7        Q.   All right.  You said what you worked on.  You worked on general

 8     crime.  You wrote up the criminal report.  And you started the relevant

 9     proceedings before the court in Bijeljina.

10        A.   Yes.  We arrested the person.  We submitted criminal report

11     concerning grave crimes that were committed in Zvornik, and the military

12     security dealt with the evidence concerning war crimes.  Now, I know that

13     proceedings were started, but I cannot be sure about the rest.

14        Q.   All right.  I will complete this by dealing with an unfinished

15     topic from the Krajisnik case.  You do remember that this was accompanied

16     by rumours that the police had been involved in some kind of abuse and

17     that more gold had been taken than had been registered.  You explained

18     what happened.  Remind me.  You said it was locked in a safe or

19     something?  In the Bijeljina Security Services Centre when you were

20     leaving after that action; am I right?

21        A.   Yes.  The Ministry of Interior had left everything there.  There

22     were vehicles that had been seized and there was gold.  I cannot

23     remember, it was like a kilogram and a half or so.  I cannot remember.

24     Also, there was also some gold jewellery there.  We seized that and

25     stored it with the Ministry of Interior, and I had an Official Note

Page 13570

 1     stating that and who received all of these goods at the Bijeljina MUP.

 2        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, according to the Law on Criminal Procedure and

 3     according to the rules provided by the minister concerning such deposits,

 4     if the seized goods were not the object of a crime, then, according to

 5     the law, they have to be returned to the rightful owners; right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's what the law says.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Now, if I have enough time, I would like to show you

 8     a document, but I believe that it may be a good idea to take the break

 9     now, Your Honours, because I would like to show him a document that has

10     to do exactly with this topic that I have just dealt with now.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Is it going to take you longer than five minutes?

12     Because we're five minutes away from the break.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It won't.  I'm going to finish

14     with this document within five minutes.  P317, item 20.

15             I have to repeat, P317, item 20.

16             I give the 65 ter number, 2729, just in case.  So whatever is

17     easier for you, in order to be able to find it.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE HALL:  The -- you are aware this is a confidential

20     document, Mr. Cvijetic.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I do know.  Then

22     we'd have to move into private session so that the witness could give his

23     comments with regard to what he sees.  That would be all.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So we move into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 13571











11 Page 13571 redacted. Private session.















Page 13572

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25                           [Open session]

Page 13573

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  And we take the break, to resume in 20 minutes.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  You may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, before we continue, I said I had to follow in

10     parallel your statement in the Krajisnik case.

11             You said a moment ago, and it's your statement as well.  Let me

12     give a reference.  It's paragraph 65 of your statement.  You can open it

13     to see that, on one occasion, you walked in on Cedo Kljajic when he was

14     filling in a vehicle permit form for his own needs.  Do you remember

15     saying that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Before I ask you the actual question.  Can you please confirm

18     that during our interview, I showed you a binder full of orders,

19     instructions, and measures taken by the ministry to elucidate the

20     Volkswagen Golf affairs and scandals.

21             Can you just confirm you saw these documents?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now in the light of what you've seen, do you allow for the

24     possibility that Mr. Cedo Kljajic, when he referred to Mr. Stanisic, just

25     covered himself.  In fact, he was lying?

Page 13574

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the answer because

 2     it overlapped with the question.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry before we --

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I allowed the possibility, everyone

 8     has the right to lie.  Certainly he seemed surprised when I walked in on

 9     him.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

11             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, I would appreciate if counsel would stop

12     when he sees me rising to raise an objection.

13             Secondly, Your Honour, I have an objection because it is my

14     understanding that when Defence counsel saw the witness yesterday it was

15     just the two of them.  Now he is asking about all these documents I

16     showed you, did that change your mind or cause to you allow for the

17     possibility that what you say about Mr. Kljajic here is a result of

18     Mr. Kljajic lying.  We don't know what documents he showed the witness.

19     I don't have them, I don't know how many there are.  I don't know if they

20     are authentic.  I don't know anything about them and neither do you.

21             And we -- it is not an appropriate way to proceed.  He should

22     have another witness [sic] present when he is cross-examined and when he

23     is interviewing a witness like that, in case the witness contradicts him,

24     otherwise he puts himself in the position of making himself a witness in

25     the case in which he's an advocate; and secondly, we don't know what

Page 13575

 1     those documents are and whether I can't cross-examine the witness now

 2     about whether that is a legitimate basis for you to change their mind.

 3     Because I don't know what they are, how many, or if they are authentic.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, the bundle of objections which

 5     Mr. Hannis has just articulated, the -- what is your response?  Because

 6     the reason why I refer is to a bundle of objections is there are a number

 7     of issues which your question and the manner in which you phrase your

 8     question have raised, even -- certainly in my mind even before Mr. Hannis

 9     would have articulated his objection, and my concern is that the set-up,

10     as it were, for the question, is such that I don't know what use we could

11     make of the answer when all of this is -- at the end of the exercise.

12             What is your response?

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my response is very

14     simple.  That issue was raised both in direct examination, and it is

15     dealt with in the witness statement.  And the documents I've shown him

16     regarding all the operations of the Ministry of Interior to elucidate

17     this Golf scandal is already part of the evidence.  I did not find it

18     necessary to bring the entire binder and show the documents one by one

19     here.  Some of these were unfamiliar to the witness, and he didn't even

20     know that such orders were made.  That's how I set the legal groundwork

21     for my question.  If I made a mistake when asking this last question,

22     whether he allowed for the possibility that Mr. Kljajic was lying, I'm

23     sorry.  If I had brought the binder to deal with it here it would take an

24     hour at least, and we've seen it, and we've gone through it at least ten

25     times in this courtroom.

Page 13576

 1             JUDGE HALL:  That is not the point, as I appreciate it.

 2     Certainly you are able, Mr. Cvijetic, to phrase a question that the

 3     witness can readily answer, albeit that the background would have been

 4     this bundle of documents without putting the documents in.

 5             But I have a problem with questions such as do you allow for the

 6     possibility that somebody is lying.  You know, what assistance, what

 7     possible assistance to the Chamber could there be from any answer that

 8     such a question elicits?

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, and I

10     will try not to use this method any further in this witness's

11     examination.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed.

13             MR. CVIJETIC:

14        Q.   [Interpretation], Mr. Davidovic, let us look at paragraph 58 of

15     your statement.

16             Earlier today, responding to a question from Mr. Hannis, you said

17     Mr. Stanisic offer add vehicle to you and I'm not going make any more

18     introductions.  I was already wrapped on the knuckles for that.  I will

19     just say that he offered you -- that's what you say in the statement, he

20     offered you and your men one Volkswagen Golf.  Did that actually mean you

21     could have a car issued to you officially?

22        A.   I didn't mention and I cannot qualify whether it was offered on a

23     private or an official basis.  When he mentioned this Volkswagen Golf

24     vehicle, I said without any further adieu that we don't need it, we have

25     our own vehicles and equipment.  And that was the end of the

Page 13577

 1     conversation.  In my mind, there was no need to go on about it.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I will seek no further clarification.

 3             Let us move to paragraphs -- to paragraph 114.

 4             Look at the bottom of that paragraph.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 10472; that's the witness

 6     statement.  Paragraph 114.

 7             Page 30 in Serbian -- no.  It's page 30 in English and page 31 in

 8     Serbian.  Fine.  I expect the other version will also be displayed.

 9        Q.   Look at the bottom of that paragraph 114 where you said that

10     Mr. Andan quarreled with Mico Stanisic and that Mr. Stanisic criticised

11     Mr. Andan, because, I quoted:  "He was too kindly disposed towards

12     Muslims."

13             Now does this phrasing in your statement reflect exactly what you

14     said?  Could you explain a little.

15        A.   I think I owe you an explanation.

16             When I went to Sarajevo, and when it was agreed that he should

17     come with his unit to Bijeljina to disarm -- that we should come to

18     Bijeljina to disarm paramilitaries, the issue arose who would be the

19     co-ordinator between me, the unit and the Ministry of Interior of

20     Republika Srpska, and that's when Cedo Kljajic said that Dragomir Andan

21     should be co-opted or seconded to us.

22             Until then, I had never heard of the man.  I just heard of him as

23     an employee of the Ministry of Interior.  I heard -- I was told that he

24     was in Brcko.  He wasn't busy with anything special and that he was

25     available to us.  That's when Mr. Stanisic said, Who is this

Page 13578

 1     Dragomir Andan, why he is in Brcko?  Then the other one said I invited

 2     him and then he said in rather brutal terms, I don't need a man like that

 3     here.  Where are those Muslims now?  Where is that Macar?  I can't

 4     remember the name, was it Mujo or something.  But anyway it was mentioned

 5     that Dragan Andan was also a football referee in his private life and

 6     that's how they knew him and that's probably the reason why Mico Stanisic

 7     said what he said.  And he said, Don't worry, he will be able to do that

 8     work and that's how this whole conversation between me, Cedo and Mico

 9     ended.

10        Q.   You explained that, as a football referee he received meat from a

11     butcher as a bribe and that's the point?

12        A.   I don't know what exactly it was about but some butcher was

13     mentioned and this sort of corruption.

14        Q.   Could you just finish your answer.  You said -- or he said, I

15     don't need that kind of man?

16        A.   Yes, he said, I don't need that kind of man.  He was opposed to

17     his coming, and I even thought he issued an order to that effect; but,

18     later, the man did come, at the insistence of Cedo Kljajic.

19        Q.   So how did he turn out to be in carrying out this work with you

20     in Zvornik, Bijeljina, Brcko?

21        A.   He turned out to be quite good.  He was very energetic,

22     professional, qualified policeman.  I was able to rely on him completely,

23     whatever assignment I gave him he performed it impeccably, and I must say

24     that I have a very high opinion of him as a police officer.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, could we just clarify the meaning of

Page 13579

 1     your testimony here?

 2             Did you understand Mr. Stanisic's comment on Dragan Andan to be

 3     that Andan would not be a qualified person because he was just a football

 4     referee.  Was that the reason why Stanisic didn't want him in this

 5     operation, according to your memory?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I don't -- that's not what

 7     I meant.

 8             I don't think he thought that disqualified him, that he was a

 9     football referee in his private life.  He wasn't thinking of Dragan Andan

10     as a referee.  I think it was all about something else.  Mico Stanisic

11     thought Dragan Andan to be a corrupted man, who was a corrupted referee

12     with his own corrupted dealings in this football activity together with

13     some other people, including that butcher.  I think it was all about his

14     opinion of Dragan Andan as a corrupt man.  That's what I meant and that's

15     what I understood Mico Stanisic to think of him.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So it had nothing to do with his being

17     prejudiced -- his being too lenient with the Muslims, as your statement

18     seems to suggest.

19             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honours.  I thought I

20     heard one of the few B/C/S words I know spoken by the witness and not

21     showing up in the English translation, which was "Muslimani," and I don't

22     see anything about Muslims.  I don't know if my B/C/S friends across the

23     way heard the same thing, but if we could ask him about that.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe the witness should first

25     answer your question because that was going to be my question, my next

Page 13580

 1     question.

 2        A.   I can quote, I remember it in detail and he said the following:

 3     Where are those Muslims to help Dragan Andan now?  Where is that butcher?

 4     Where are his pork carcasses now, pork legs?  I think he meant his

 5     character as a corrupt man, knowing about him from before, and I don't

 6     think that he thought he would be a welcome addition in that operation of

 7     disarming paramilitaries.  I believe that it had to do with -- with his

 8     taking bribes, not his activity in sports and activity as a referee.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise for dwelling into this question.

10             But, you see, in your statement, the implication that you seem to

11     have raised was that Mr. Stanisic didn't like Mr. Andan because he

12     thought that Mr. Andan was to well inclined towards Muslims.  And so,

13     therefore, the question is, directly to you here and now, was that your

14     impression, or are we to understand your statement so as to mean that

15     what Stanisic may have had against Mr. Andan had nothing to do with Mr.

16      Andan's relations with the Muslims?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally believe that the

18     opinion of Mico Stanisic had to do only with the qualities of this person

19     as a person.  My view of Mico Stanisic is that he wasn't making any

20     distinctions between Serbs and Muslims --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, of Dragan Andan that

22     he wasn't making any distinctions between Serbs and Muslims.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him as a very responsible,

24     professional person, that was my view of him.  I don't know what the

25     opinion of Mico Stanisic of this man was because of their previous

Page 13581

 1     experience.  I think they had worked together earlier and maybe had some

 2     experiences between them.  I had only heard about Dragan Andan, I hadn't

 3     met that person before.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  This solves the issue, and you may

 5     move on.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic, let us complete this topic.

 8             Are you saying, then, that the position of Mr. Stanisic is not in

 9     any way related to the views Mr. Andan had in relation to Muslims in

10     general, that Mr. Stanisic was speaking about a specific incident

11     involving some Muslims and that he believed that he was not fit to carry

12     out police tasks because of that?

13        A.   I just repeated what I heard from Mico Stanisic.  I don't know

14     what his views were.  You must accept that.  But let me add something.

15     In later contacts with Mico Stanisic, I never made an impression that he

16     has any specific position in relation to Muslims.  I saw him as a man who

17     is at high position, who insists on legality, and I don't believe he had

18     any views about Muslims.  And now if we're talking about the relationship

19     between Andan and Stanisic, it was not an issue for me.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I think everything is clear now.

21             Let us go on.  During your interview with the OTP, you gave them

22     a document.  They put this document at our disposal.  It's D103-4841.

23             I was told that it wasn't translated.

24             Let me just clarify.  Since we received this document last night

25     we don't have a translation of it.

Page 13582

 1             And I would just like to ask the witness whether he can

 2     recognises the document he had handed over and then maybe explain what

 3     the document is and once we have the translation, we will ask for this

 4     document to be introduced.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 1D03-4841.

 6             I'm being told that the number is correct and that the document

 7     is in the e-court.

 8        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, since we brought the document to the Prosecutor,

 9     there's no need for you to read it.  Can you just tell us what it is.

10             Could you just tell us what we can see in the heading?

11        A.   Let me just explain briefly.

12             I got my hands on the document from the Ministry of Interior of

13     Republika Srpska in relation to forming a commission that was ordered by

14     Mico Stanisic.  This commission was headed by Goran Macar and the task of

15     the commission was to determine what has been taken out from the deposit

16     of the Ministry of Interior who received what, what was done with these

17     items and so forth.  Having read the report, I found in the last or in

18     the penultimate item, it's on the following page, I saw that Dragan Andan

19     had seized a gambling machine.  It's specified which precise gambling

20     machine, that it was taken out of the safe.

21        Q.   It's on the last page of the document.  Page 4.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please find the last page

23     of the document and show it on the screen?

24        Q.   Yes.  It's item number 4 -- or, rather, page 4, second paragraph.

25     It says here --

Page 13583

 1        A.   On the 4th of July, 1992, this gambling machine was seized.  You

 2     can see the name of it and it is stated also that the document

 3     [as interpreted] was allegedly not working, and it was taken out for some

 4     professional purpose.  This is what I've read here and let me now explain

 5     why I handed over the document and why I find it of particular interest.

 6        Q.   Let us be more specific.  Since we're dealing with Dragan Andan,

 7     if you allow me?

 8        A.   No, but this is also related to Dragan Andan, so after having

 9     completed the arrest of the Yellow Wasps, there was a big cry-out among

10     the political structures.  People wanted me to be withdrawn from there

11     and sent back.  Since, in the meantime Pavle Bulatovic replaced

12     Petar Gracanin as the federal minister, I was told to take my unit first

13     to Belgrade and then to Montenegro, the area of Plevlje because there

14     were also cases of violations by paramilitary formations, Ceko Dacovic

15     and such.  And then about 15 days after that, Dragan informed me that

16     Mico Stanisic relieved him of duty, that he doesn't have a position at

17     the time, that he is, in other words, without a job.  And I wondered what

18     had happened, why was he fired.

19             And then, after so many year, I see this document where I can see

20     that he has taken out this gambling machine which was a violation, was

21     not justified, and Stanisic removed him for that reason, not because

22     Dragan was involved in disarming or arrest of paramilitary formations

23     which was the belief, I think, at the time; namely, since Mico Davidovic

24     left, Dragan was kicked out.  And this is the explanation that I believe

25     I needed to offer to you.

Page 13584

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

 2     for this document to be marked for identification and we will inform the

 3     Chamber when we have the translation ready.  It was -- it is a document

 4     that was brought here by the witness himself and we just need it to be

 5     translated into English.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, before we take any position on your

 7     request, I would like you to explain to us what significance you attach

 8     to the document.

 9             The document seems to show that Mr. Andan was finally moved out

10     of his position because he had appropriated a gambling machine from the

11     deposit, and so Mr. Stanisic's suspicion that this person, Mr. Andan,

12     was, after all, not a reliable man may have been confirmed.

13             But, in my view, nothing turns on this, in relation to the

14     indictment, so I'm just wondering what is the relevance of this document,

15     because I don't see it.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Harhoff, the

17     witness explained it in precisely the same way I would have explained it.

18     The firing of Mr. Andan was previously explained by what the witness

19     said.  Namely, that he was involved in disarmament of paramilitary

20     formations.  But turns out he was not fired for that reason, which was

21     the reason one could infer from what was stated in the statement of this

22     witness but, instead, he was relieved of duty or fired for the purposes

23     explained by this document.

24             In other words, the witness confirmed that this is something that

25     has shown that the earlier rumours were not correct, that he was relieved

Page 13585

 1     of duty in accordance with the rules of the Ministry of Interior.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  The document be marked for identification.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D348, marked for identification,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic, I'll show you now the next

 8     document, number --

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Maybe Tanja can help me, if this

10     is P239.  It's number 10 in the binder; tab 10 in the binder.  65 ter

11     number 239.  And P number -- I apologise, P number is 1269.

12        Q.   These are the minutes of the extended session of the board of

13     Serbian Republic, minister of the interior, held in the Kosuta facility

14     on Mount Jahorina on 9 September.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we please put up page 3 in the

16     B/C/S on the screen.

17             I'm interested in the last paragraph, which bears number 1.  It's

18     item number 1 on the last page.  I don't know where it is in the English

19     version.  It's the sixth page in the English version.

20        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I think you have had an opportunity to read this.

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please move to the next

23     page, item number 2 in the B/C/S version.  It's the next item, next

24     person.  In the English version we should stay on the same page.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Davidovic, you also know what was the position of

Page 13586

 1     Mr. Danilo Vukovic.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber who he was.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the function of

 3     Mr. Vukovic.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we were making reports against

 5     Yellow Wasps and others, he was the one -- one of the operatives who was

 6     writing these reports.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you just tell us what was the function of

 9     Mr. Vukovic.

10        A.   He was the chief of the crime department in the CSB, Bijeljina.

11     So he was chief of the crime department in CSB, Bijeljina.

12        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I have a short question for you.  Disciplinary

13     violations by both of these persons, Dragan Andan and Danilo Vukovic

14     describe imposition of the most severe disciplinary measures; am I

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You will agree with me that -- that the disciplinary procedure

18     that was instigated at the time at this meeting that it was founded a

19     well-founded and it had its base both in the rules and the laws.  Do you

20     agree with me?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, let us complete this topic, and I believe I will

23     even complete the entire cross-examination today.

24             You told us that almost all paramilitary formations entered

25     Republika Srpska, claiming they were volunteers, patriots coming to fight

Page 13587

 1     on behalf of the Serbian People; am I right?

 2        A.   Yes, you are.

 3        Q.   That's how they managed to fool some people, into believing that

 4     that was the real purpose.  Do you agree with me?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Some of them took part in the patriotic struggle of the Serbian

 7     People and proven to actually be patriots.

 8        A.   Just a small number of them.

 9        Q.   The fact remains, actually what you just said now, that quite a

10     few of them showed their true face very soon and that they started

11     engaging in illegal activity, right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   That was the reason why, when Mico Stanisic visited you in

14     Belgrade and when he said to you that he had observed precisely that and

15     said that such individuals and groups should be fought against?

16        A.   It wasn't in Belgrade.  It was in Bijeljina.  I don't know who

17     else he talked to, but in Bijeljina he said that there were paramilitary

18     formations that should be disarmed.

19        Q.   All right.  Tell me just briefly, I think you testified about

20     that.  Basically where was the main problem?  You talked about local

21     organs of authority, Crisis Staffs.  Is that where the crux of the

22     problem was with regard to the struggle against such units?

23        A.   You know what, you put questions and you offer a yes-or-no

24     answer, as if this were a TV quiz show.  I cannot give that kind of an

25     answer.  It is a complex question and it requires a serious broad answer.

Page 13588

 1     I cannot just say yes or no.  If you allow me I will explain but that

 2     does require time.

 3        Q.   I do allow you to do that.

 4        A.   In the beginning of the war, in Republika Srpska, there was a

 5     transformation of the system as whole.  Crisis Staffs were established.

 6     Some kind of SAOs were established.  And there was total lawlessness, in

 7     terms of the official organs of government that had functioned until

 8     then.  Then there was a general call on the part of the high leadership -

 9     Karadzic, Krajisnik, Biljana Plavsic - calling volunteers to come to

10     Republika Srpska to defend the Serb people from alleged threats to them,

11     coming from the Muslims.  A great deal of people responded to that.  They

12     came to Republika Srpska and they went to different municipalities.  Some

13     went to Herzegovina, Trebinje, Nevesinje, others went to Bijeljina, third

14     groups went to Banja Luka, and so on.  One of the first person who

15     organised such arrivals was Arkan, Grey Wolfs, et cetera, different units

16     who came to take part, allegedly, in the struggle, in terms of defending

17     the Serb people.  However, these were people who came with the sole

18     intention of looting, killing, attaining some kind of material benefit.

19     Then for the local authorities that had been organised in the meantime

20     they did some things that were wrong, especially for normal people who

21     lived at the time in Republika Srpska and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22     Members of other ethnic groups, like Croats and Muslims were being taken

23     away, beaten up and killed even during the course of the night.  Their

24     property was looted and no one was held accountable for all of that.

25             Throughout that time, the local authorities, the Crisis Staffs,

Page 13589

 1     the police, the reserve police and the active-duty police, made it

 2     possible for such paramilitary formations to operate, and they operated

 3     unhindered.  When they carried out this kind of dirty work, when they

 4     created this feeling of fear and lawlessness, and when they were no

 5     longer in a position to loot those unfortunate Muslims because there was

 6     no property left, then they even started looking for Serbs who were well

 7     off and then they started taking away their property.  It is it

 8     interesting that then they opposed -- then they imposed themselves on the

 9     local authorities.  They started doing whatever they wanted to do.  So

10     then the problem was how to get rid of such persons.  Then people started

11     moaning, saying, Save us, help us, we cannot defend ourselves from these

12     paramilitaries any longer.  We don't have the force to oppose them.

13             The Ministry of Interior, until then, had been linked with them,

14     Bijeljina, Arkan is a classical example of that, that even happened in

15     Zvornik where the Yellow Wasps were and then I was there as well.  Then

16     Brcko, the Berets and the Bozic brothers and all the rest, when they

17     started killing and looting.  And even when they started disobeying the

18     local authorities then someone finally came to realise that they need to

19     be expelled from there.  When they turned into the very opposite, when

20     they actually started harming them and when they did not share the booty

21     as they did until then, then they wanted to get rid of them, Brcko, and

22     to a large extent, Bijeljina was a case in point.  It is only now that

23     the question was put:  How did it happen that these people managed to do

24     that kind of thing when there were organs of government there?  That is a

25     consequence of such relations that existed.  It's the local leadership

Page 13590

 1     that is responsible for that.  However, I repeat once again this local

 2     leadership was not independent.  It pursued the policy of the SDS, the

 3     political party that was in power in Republika Srpska.  The SDS had a

 4     planned conceived policy of cleansing all areas where Muslims lived of

 5     those same Muslims.  Whoever says that that is not the case, I claim with

 6     good arguments that they did that consciously, in an organised way, and

 7     it wasn't only the question of Bijeljina, Zvornik, Brcko, it was

 8     throughout Republika Srpska.

 9             The leadership of the SDS had planned, organised activities in

10     terms of ethnically cleansing the Muslims.  Whoever helped them -- well,

11     that was the entire -- that was the core of the matter.  That is what I

12     have claim, that is what I have said at every point in time and I can say

13     again.

14        Q.   Now I'm going to explain to you -- I mean, you already explained

15     that in the Krajisnik trial, so I didn't want you to repeat it, but now

16     you explained, so thank you.

17             I would just be interested in the following:  As for

18     Mr. Mico Stanisic, did you get absolute authority from him to fight

19     against paramilitaries and all types of criminals, irrespective?

20        A.   I did not have any reason not to have that kind of full powers

21     given to me, and I must say that he did not hinder me in any way.  He did

22     not call me and ask what I was doing.  He never called me and said,

23     Release this person or that person.  That is a fact and that is what I

24     have to say.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could Mr. Cvijetic please

Page 13591

 1     keep his microphone off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC:  [Interpretation] When some local communities even

 3     claimed you to be an unwanted a person, a persona non grata, did you

 4     still receive the report of Mr. Stanisic and did he allow you to do

 5     everything that you were supposed to do.

 6        A.   Yes.  That was the case.  I must say that he did not prevent me

 7     from carrying out the work I was doing in any way.

 8        Q.   Did Mr. Stanisic say to you that you should carry out a selection

 9     in terms of the types of crimes committed or the perpetrators of some

10     kinds; for example, were you supposed to deal with some crimes others not

11     or to arrest some perpetrates and others not?

12        A.   No.  Please, I said at the very outset, when I talked to him, he

13     gave me full powers without any limits.  He said, Please arrest all

14     paramilitaries wherever possible, wherever you can, irrespective of what

15     was going on.  You should act within the law, you should file criminal

16     reports and so son.  There was no dilemma involved whatsoever.  I did not

17     leave Bijeljina because I was expelled.  I have to say that.  Quite a few

18     stories have been bandied about so I need to say something because I left

19     during the course of the night.  Because the federal minister, I was

20     called in, I was ordered to return to Belgrade and to urgently go to

21     Montenegro, and when I returned to Belgrade I was supposed to go back to

22     Bijeljina yet again to continue doing what I had been doing.  That had

23     been the agreement, but everything changed.  I went to Montenegro and

24     after that I went to Kosovo, and so on.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I think that you were talking about this special

Page 13592

 1     unit of the MUP of Republika Srpska and certain violations.

 2             Let us try to spell out the exact time involved.  You are talking

 3     about the time when Mr. Stanisic was no longer minister of the interior;

 4     am I right?

 5        A.   Wait a minute.  I cannot speak exactly in terms of time now.  I

 6     just know that Mico Stanisic insisted that the special unit from Sarajevo

 7     be included.  I have to admit that I was against having them involved

 8     together with me in this action.  However, since I knew that this unit

 9     was absolutely incapable of doing that that they had only 12 or 13 people

10     who were professionally trained to carry that kind of thing out.

11     However, Mico Stanisic insisted to involve them in the action to see how

12     they would perform and that they should be one of the participants in

13     this action.  They did take part in this action.  They carried this job

14     out and that was it.

15             I have to say another thing --

16        Q.   Just one more question.

17        A.   Wait a moment, let me finish what I was saying.  Don't interrupt

18     me.

19             Later on I pointed that out in my statement, namely that this

20     unit turned into its very opposite.  In Zvornik, they did things that

21     were even worse than what the Yellow Wasps had been doing.  They turned

22     into renegades, 150 men came and they were put up at the Drina Hotel and

23     at Vidikovac after a while, now that is correct.  I don't know how long

24     Mico was minister.  He did leave that job truth to tell, but I know that

25     in 2003 or it was the end of the year, the citizens of Zvornik protested

Page 13593

 1     because of the problems they had with that special unit because out of

 2     the 150 men who had arrived, 100 of them were expelling Muslims they

 3     lived in their houses, their apartments, and in that way they practically

 4     continued doing what the Yellow Wasps had been doing.  I cannot tell you

 5     which period this was, before or later.  But it is a fact that this unit

 6     also turned into something that was contrary to what their original task

 7     had been.

 8        Q.   You said and the transcript says that too.  Towards the end of

 9     2003.  I assume that it's an obvious mistake, you meant -- tell me what

10     year did you mean?

11        A.   Yes, of course, I meant 1993.  I really do apologise.  Sorry, I

12     got carried away.

13        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, thank you for your testimony.  I have no further

14     questions.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  We don't have questions for this witness,

16     Your Honour.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I would like to make a request.  I saw

18     recently there was a request by the stenographer to ask the witness to

19     slow down.  I notice some parts of the transcript appear to have been

20     having a difficult time following.  I know that will be cleared up when

21     someone has had a chance to listen to the tapes.  What I'm asking is if

22     can we recess early and I can start my cross-exam in the morning.  We are

23     way ahead of schedule in this witness now, and it will be easier,

24     certainly for me, if I have the transcript, once it has had a chance to

25     be checked and put in proper order.  That will make me more efficient.

Page 13594

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MR. HANNIS:  I'm also informed that our next witness can't start

 3     before Wednesday, at any rate.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The Chamber was just considering this situation

 5     in which we, once again, find ourselves.  And we're not exactly sure how

 6     to go about it.  But, obviously, this is a result of an estimation of the

 7     length of the cross-examination that was obviously very far from -- from

 8     what the Defence actually took.  And it's obvious that this makes it very

 9     difficult for the Chamber to plan the proceedings if -- if the

10     estimations are so grossly erroneous.

11             So I think the best way ahead is for the Chamber to remind the

12     parties once again to be more accurate in their estimations of how much

13     time they will need for examination-in-chief and for cross.  Because the

14     other way around, of course, when we get to the Defence cases ...

15                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I would respectfully disagree that

17     this is an result of our estimations.  The estimations are only

18     estimations.  Because, Your Honours, we are bound to give our estimates

19     way before the witness comes.

20             Now, there are two aspects of it which definitely has a certain

21     impact on the length of our cross-examination.  It is it, first, the

22     direct examination of the -- of the Office of the Prosecutor; and the

23     second thing is the -- the interview of the witness that we conduct

24     before -- if the witness, of course, accepts to be subject to interview

25     of the Defence.

Page 13595

 1             Therefore, Your Honour, we gave the estimate maybe a couple of

 2     months ago, estimating that it is going to take far longer than --

 3     than -- than it did.  But we notified our friends from the Prosecutor.

 4     As soon as we were able to give a better estimate, we notified them that

 5     our cross-examination is going to be shortened.  That is -- that is

 6     absolutely the best what we can do.  I'm really sorry that we cannot be

 7     of more help, but ...

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis -- may I?

 9             I would -- I would like to add perhaps --

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There is a perhaps a third element, Mr. Hannis.

12     That is the extent of the witness statement and the witness -- and the

13     transcripts you are -- you are offering.  And I noted that in this case

14     there was no highlighting done.  Is that for us to conclude that

15     everything is --

16             MR. HANNIS:  That was our specific decision in this case to

17     include it all because we thought it was necessary for you to see it all

18     to evaluate his evidence.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay, thanks.

20             MR. HANNIS:  I would indicate, Your Honour, I guess I just wanted

21     to remind the Defence about Rule 90(H) in the obligation to put to a

22     witness in cross-examination their case, and there are some portions in

23     this witness's statement where he talks directly about some things that

24     Mr. Stanisic said to him or happened with them, and some of those didn't

25     appear to be addressed, so I assume that is going to be addressed in the

Page 13596

 1     Defence case somehow, but it wasn't raised or challenged with this

 2     witness.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  In this vein, Mr. Hannis, I alert you to the

 4     possibility, and I put it no higher than that, as you may be aware --

 5     well, the background to what I'm about to say is the general concern

 6     about lost court time, and you would be aware that there is a division of

 7     views among individual Judges and, indeed, among Chambers as to whether

 8     the side whose case is being presented.  At our stage, it's the

 9     Prosecution and at a later stage, it would be the other side, should have

10     backup witnesses so that when these gaps occur, we are not sitting down

11     counting the tiles on the ceiling.  The -- we would have, in this

12     Chamber, been invited to address the question some months ago when we

13     deferred it indefinitely because as I said, it is something that is not

14     yet settled throughout the Tribunal, and I appreciate the argument that

15     the Prosecution has made in this vein about the inconvenience and

16     impracticality of having witnesses sitting around in The Hague, who may

17     then have to return and not go back but, of course, that has to be set

18     off against the expense of simply running this Tribunal each day.

19             It is a problem not peculiar to the -- to this Tribunal, not

20     peculiar to this system, and it is certainly in my own country, I'm well

21     aware of it, and heretofore I have been disinclined, bearing in mind the

22     preference for the convenience of witnesses to have backup witnesses, but

23     I alert you that circumstances may force me to go to the other side of

24     that -- that argument.

25             We may have to return to that.

Page 13597

 1             MR. HANNIS:  I am well familiar with that, Your Honour.  In a

 2     previous case, I had a judge who at the beginning of the case, was

 3     penalising the Prosecution and subtracting time from their case allowed

 4     for -- or case in chief when we had some gaps because we finish -- later

 5     on, he withdrew that yellow card or red card and gave us the time back

 6     because he understood the difficulties and we have to engage victim

 7     witness in this discussion as well, because they are the ones that have

 8     the rule about five days, et cetera, but I just want to respond to what

 9     Mr. Zecevic said concerning the time estimates.

10             I think if we went back through all the witnesses and counted up

11     all the time estimates, I think you would find that there is more room

12     for judgement on that side.  I understand here, I think the original

13     estimate was six hours.  Now that original estimate of six hours had be

14     based in part on the fact that this was a 92 ter witness and we were

15     going to put in transcripts from five days of testimony and a written

16     statement that was 50-some pages.  And I don't know what the witness said

17     during his one-on-one interview with Mr. Cvijetic on Sunday that made him

18     change his mind and go from six hours to what turned out to be one and a

19     half, but it didn't appear to be that he went through and said,

20     Everything I said in my statement is not true, I withdraw it.  So I think

21     it could have been a better estimate, and we could have known sooner

22     than -- than yesterday.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway we accept we're in the realm of art not

24     science.

25             One other matter, Mr. Hannis.  Looking at the week's schedule,

Page 13598

 1     we -- we were scheduled to deal with this matter of exhumations on

 2     Friday.  We were wondering, whether you, and I say you plural, would be

 3     prepared, inasmuch as we will have some time tomorrow to deal with it

 4     then.  I'm merely throwing that out now.  I don't expect either side to

 5     be in a position to respond definitively but think about it overnight and

 6     it may very well be that it is something that the time could usefully be

 7     used for tomorrow.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There is perhaps something else to take into

 9     account, that is the testimony of ST-210, which I don't think will take

10     the two days scheduled now.  So if we can perhaps re-plan the arguments

11     on exhumations and perhaps advance a little bit ST-210, we can win a day,

12     day and a half, for perhaps another witness, if it can be organised.

13             MR. HANNIS:  I will discuss that with the assigned attorney and

14     with my learned friends across the way, and we'll see what we can do.

15     Thank you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

17             So we take the adjournment until 9.00, tomorrow in this

18     courtroom.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day of

22                           August, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.