Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14017

 1                           Wednesday, 1 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.36 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 6             Good afternoon, everybody in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good afternoon to everyone.

11             May we begin as usual by taking the appearances for today,

12     please.

13             MR. DOBBYN:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For the Office of the

14     Prosecutor, Gerard Dobbyn with Crispian Smith.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

16     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

17     this afternoon.  Thank you.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

19     Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Is the Prosecution ready to proceed with

21     its next witness, unless there are some other matters that would delay.

22             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I announced that I have a preliminary

24     matter which concerns the motion that we received yesterday by the

25     Prosecution concerning the 65 ter amendment, and three -- those are

Page 14018

 1     basically three related issues, and I would like Your Honours'

 2     indulgence to ...

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, Mr. Zecevic.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.  I will proceed in Serbian,

 5     please.

 6             [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I said, these are three related

 7     matters.  We received, yesterday, a new submission of the Prosecution to

 8     change the 65 ter list, suggesting the introduction of a new document

 9     related to the testimony of Witness ST-128, who is expected to appear

10     tomorrow or even later today.  I suppose that the Trial Chamber will ask

11     us to make our position clear about this submission very soon, and I will

12     do it now.  And in the same context, I would like to briefly invoke a

13     couple of facts that we encounter daily in this case and that pose a very

14     serious problem for the Defence.

15             The OTP justifies its motion to change the 65 ter list by the

16     fact that the Defence has presented a criminal complaint concerning a

17     crime covered by the indictment and by the evidence of some witnesses in

18     this case.  If that crime is indeed covered by the indictment, and it is,

19     and the indictment, among other things, charges that the police

20     authorities had discriminated in cases when the victims were non-Serbs

21     and conducted less than serious investigations, it is then quite logical

22     to expect, and I have believe even necessary, that the OTP investigating

23     the crime in question reviews the relevant documents in order to

24     establish whether the original investigation had been conducted and what

25     its result was.  It is inexplicable, and there is absolutely no

Page 14019

 1     justification for the fact that the OTP has still not done it since the

 2     beginning of investigations in this case or at least since 2005 when the

 3     initial indictment was brought.

 4             Some say that this is because the Office of the Prosecutor first

 5     issues an indictment and then investigates the case, which our case and

 6     similar cases seem to indicate.

 7             Your Honours, exactly one year ago, since the beginning of this

 8     trial, the OTP has modified or added to its 65 ter list exactly

 9     56 witnesses, which amounts to about 50 per cent of the total number of

10     witnesses in the original 65 ter list.  Furthermore, the OTP has -- had

11     made over 50 oral and written submissions to modify the 65 ter list

12     regarding documents and tendered almost 500 new documents, which is about

13     20 per cent of addition compared to the original number.

14             From the 1st of September, 2009, when the batch 78 was disclosed

15     to us as the last in the pre-trial stage, to date practically an

16     identical amount of documents has been disclosed to us as in the entire

17     pre-trial stage, which lasted almost five years.  The amount is

18     approximately 500 gigabytes of documents, and we are currently at

19     batch 137.  That means that the increase in documents is 100 per cent,

20     and this continues during the trial.

21             I really believe that this practice on this scale of modifying

22     the Prosecution case in trial has not been recorded so far in any of the

23     other cases before this Court.  The very volume of this material makes it

24     impossible for the Defence to do its job well or to perform its duty

25     under the statute and under the professional code of conduct for Defence

Page 14020

 1     counsel appearing before the ICTY, let alone the detriment to the

 2     guaranteed rights of the accused under the statute, primarily the right

 3     to a fair trial.

 4             Another thing seems to be typical, namely even on top of this

 5     unbelievable amount of material that the OTP is disclosing in trial, for

 6     some reason they failed to disclose key documents such as in the case of

 7     Witness ST-147, when a very important document was disclosed 90 minutes

 8     before his testimony.  The same applies to the witness who is about to

 9     enter the courtroom and the witness after him.

10             Their evidence and their statements in criminal cases heard

11     before courts in Bosnia and Herzegovina concerning the same crime, and

12     are therefore more than relevant, were disclosed to us just before the

13     beginning of their evidence, plus they were incomplete.  I will not even

14     begin to describe how much that documentation is influential on the

15     evidence of the witness who testified yesterday and the

16     cross-examination, because from these documents we can see what the other

17     accused say about the same event and to what extent their stories differ

18     considerably on very relevant points.  After receiving and analysing

19     these documents, we will probably be forced to ask these witnesses to

20     return for additional examination.

21             The situation is similar with Witness ST-191.  A day after the

22     completion of his testimony, a document was disclosed that relates to the

23     meeting where the witness participated, and the document relates his

24     words, whereas we did not have the opportunity to show him the document

25     and elicit his comments.  Instead, the OTP introduced it through Witness

Page 14021

 1     ST-182, who has knowledge about that meeting from an unknown and indirect

 2     source.  So we will also have to ask additional examination for Witness

 3     ST-191.

 4             Such cases slow down the course of this trial, expose the

 5     Tribunal to huge additional costs and inconvenience for the witnesses,

 6     and this practice must therefore be stopped.

 7             In view of the fact, Your Honours, that this situation is

 8     becoming -- is assuming alarming proportions, I thought it my duty to

 9     bring these facts to the notice of the Trial Chamber because I believe

10     that they already have and will continue to have a great impact on the

11     further costs of this trial.  I therefore ask the Trial Chamber most

12     kindly to take the necessary steps to protect the integrity of these

13     proceedings.

14             Thank you.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

16             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, I'd just like to make a couple of

17     comments about some of the points that have been raised by my learned

18     colleague.  With -- regarding the addition of documents over time, we

19     seek to add new documents to the 65 ter list when circumstances require

20     it.  It's not a plan that's undertaken by the Prosecution to do this on

21     an ongoing basis, but as circumstances require and arise, we seek to do

22     that.  And, Your Honours, each application is looked at individually by

23     the Trial Chamber and is ruled upon according to its merits.  We can't

24     take that any further.  This is another individual application that has

25     been made, Defence have responded, and we would just be seeking that the

Page 14022

 1     Trial Chamber Judge it on its merits.

 2             With regards to some of the other points that have come up,

 3     the -- the large amount of disclosure recently that has been raised by my

 4     learned colleague, I can only assume that much of that is in relation to

 5     the new witnesses that we were granted leave to add to the witness list

 6     recently, the 44 witnesses relating to adjudicated facts.  And the

 7     disclosure that comes out of those witnesses has to be disclosed

 8     according to the Rules.  And as Your Honours are well aware, the Defence

 9     has strongly been insisting upon its disclosure as soon as possible.  And

10     we are simply trying to do what we can that's required under the Rules

11     and that the Defence wants.

12             Now, with regards -- my learned colleague made a comment about

13     the upcoming witnesses and testimony from the state court which has just

14     been disclosed.  And what I would point out, Your Honours, is that the

15     Prosecution found out that the witnesses had testified in the state court

16     in those cases at precisely the same moment that the Defence did, and we

17     sought out those transcripts at the requests of the Defence.  It was at

18     their request --

19             JUDGE HALL:  We needn't hear you on that particular point.  We're

20     aware of the history there.

21             MR. DOBBYN:  With regards to the present application,

22     Your Honours, I'm not leading that particular witness.  The attorney who

23     is handling that case is not in court at the moment, so I don't know all

24     the specific details.  But what I do understand is that it is important

25     to note that the proposed exhibit that the Prosecution is seeking to add

Page 14023

 1     was sought and obtained as a result of the Defence tendering into

 2     evidence part of the BiH case file through ST-125 on April 2010, and it

 3     was after receiving this exhibit that the Prosecution then sought and

 4     obtained the entire case file.  And I believe that's the subject of this

 5     most recent application, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Dobbyn.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Dobbyn, could I just ask, in clarification of

 8     your last intervention, why you didn't seek to have this document added

 9     to the 65 ter list much earlier?

10             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, I'm sorry, that's not a matter that I

11     have knowledge of.  What I can perhaps request is that the lawyer who

12     drafted that motion and who is leading the next witness could perhaps

13     come to court at the start of the following session.  And if Your Honours

14     have any questions, he would know this matter in much more detail and

15     could respond much more adequately than I could at this time.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  This might be a good idea to call the person

17     down.  But in any case, Mr. Dobbyn, the thing that worries the Chamber is

18     that this seems to have become a systematic pattern of last-minute

19     motions for addition of documents to the 65 ter list, and I think we've

20     been through this a number of times before.  The Chamber has repeatedly

21     requested the Prosecution to seek addition of documents to its

22     65 ter lists well in advance of the witness's arrival and to come and

23     testify about these documents, not only so as to put the Defence on

24     notice that this is something that they need to take into consideration

25     in their preparation for cross-examination of those witnesses, but also

Page 14024

 1     for the Chamber's possibilities of following the evidence in the case and

 2     managing the evidence.

 3             So it is, to be frank, Mr. Dobbyn, it's intolerable that we keep

 4     receiving these requests in the last minute.  It puts the Defence and it

 5     puts the Chamber in a lot of distress, and I don't know what other

 6     measure we can take than to simply reject your motions.  But let's hear

 7     from your officer and see if he or she can explain.

 8             MR. DOBBYN:  Actually, Your Honours, we have received an e-mail

 9     communication regarding that, and with regards to the timing, what I

10     understand, Your Honours, is that, as we say, the case file was received

11     in April -- sorry.  Just give me one minute, Your Honours.

12             Sorry.  It was requested in April of this year.  When it was

13     received, it was immediately reviewed for its relevance, and then upon

14     analysing it, it was found that the file in its entirety was relevant.

15     So at that point it had to be sent for translation.  As soon as this

16     translation was completed, which was on the 25th of August, it was

17     then -- sorry, one second.  So, Your Honours, that was just six days

18     before the filing of this motion.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Dobbyn.

20             The -- are you ready with your witness, Mr. --

21             Well, obviously we are not going to rule on this immediately, but

22     we expect to do so in the course of today.

23             Are you ready with your witness, Mr. Dobbyn?

24             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, we are, Your Honours.  The Prosecution calls

25     Witness ST-195, Nenad Krejic.

Page 14025

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Dobbyn, while we're waiting for the witness

 2     to come in, could you inform us of the date on which this case file was

 3     disclosed to the Defence?  Because I suppose that it was all in Serbian,

 4     so they could be notified of the documents before translation.

 5             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honour, and Mr. Smith is just checking

 6     that at the moment.

 7             It was disclosed on the 17th of August.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10                           WITNESS:  NENAD KREJIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, sir -- good afternoon, sir.  Sorry.

13     May I -- can I ask you to make the solemn declaration, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You may sit down.

17             I need to point out to you that the solemn declaration that you

18     just made does expose you to the penalties for perjury should you give

19     misleading or untruthful evidence to this Tribunal.

20             Could you please state your full name and date and place of

21     birth.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Nenad Krejic, born on

23     the 2nd November, 1963, in Radici, Knezevo municipality.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What is your ethnicity, please?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.

Page 14026

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And your profession today?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a teacher of national

 3     defence, and I currently work in a security organisation.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And a teacher of national defence,

 5     was that your occupation in 1992?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Now, sir, is this your first testimony before

 8     this Tribunal?  Have you ever given testimony before tribunals or courts

 9     in your country?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm here for the first time, and I

11     testified twice before the BH court.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  On matters concerning the conflict in 1992?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Now, then, let me explain you how --

15     briefly how the proceedings will unfold here.  You've been called a

16     witness by the Prosecution, who is sitting to your right, and the

17     Prosecution has asked for two hours for your examination-in-chief.  After

18     that, the counsel for Mr. Stanisic, sitting to your left, and the counsel

19     for Mr. Zupljanin, sitting for your left -- on your left as well, will

20     cross-examine you.  After that, there is the possibility of redirect by

21     the OTP, by the Prosecutor, and the Judges can always put questions to

22     you as well.

23             There is one other practical matter.  For technical reasons, we

24     need to take a pause every 90 minutes.  And our hearings take more or

25     less four hours, from quarter past 2.00 to 7.00 in the evening or from

Page 14027

 1     9.00 to quarter to 2.00 in the morning.  If for any reason you need a

 2     little break in between, please tell us and we will accommodate you.

 3             That's all I have to say.  Thank you very much.  And I'll give

 4     the floor to Mr. Dobbyn of the Prosecution.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Dobbyn:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Krejic.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   Now, I'd like to start off by briefly going through some of your

 9     background in relation to your position in 1992, and I know in response

10     to His Honour Judge Delvoie's question you said you were a teacher of

11     national defence.  Just to clarify that a little, were you appointed head

12     of SJB Skender Vakuf on 7th of June, 1991?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So at that time you were, in fact, police chief of that police

15     station.

16             Now, is it also correct that the municipality of Skender Vakuf,

17     the name was changed to Knezevo sometime in 1992?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So just to be clear, when we refer to Knezevo or Skender Vakuf,

20     those names do refer to the same municipality, don't they?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you tell me which security service centre or CSB

23     SJB Skender Vakuf was subordinate to?

24        A.   The security services centre in Banja Luka.

25        Q.   And did you hold your position as chief of SJB Skender Vakuf

Page 14028

 1     until September 1st, 1992, when you were then transferred to

 2     CSB Banja Luka?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   When you were transferred, what position did you hold at

 5     CSB Banja Luka?

 6        A.   I was a police inspector, and I performed various duties.

 7        Q.   Were you also an instructor on the police officer training course

 8     in Banja Luka?

 9        A.   No, I was not an instructor.  I was a platoon commander at the

10     first police training course organised in Banja Luka.

11        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  And did you remain in

12     CSB Banja Luka for the remainder of 1992?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Mr. Krejic, in 1992, were you a member of the SDS political

15     party?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Were you ever a member of the SDS Municipal Board in

18     Skender Vakuf?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And can you explain when you became a member and when you stopped

21     being a member, if at all?

22        A.   I was one of the founders of the SDS in Knezevo, and I was a

23     member of the steering committee and later on of the Municipal Board.  At

24     the first multi-party elections, I was elected councilman in the

25     Municipal Assembly of Knezevo.  And later on the Assembly sent me to the

Page 14029

 1     Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.  When I was appointed the

 2     chief of the public security station in Knezevo, I resigned all those

 3     three posts.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I'll move on from your background now.

 5             MR. DOBBYN:  And I would ask that we show 65 ter number 10236.13,

 6     and this is a map showing the ethnic composition and distribution in

 7     Skender Vakuf municipality in 1991, and it's from page 16 of the court

 8     binder.

 9        Q.   And this will be coming up on the screen in front of you,

10     Mr. Krejic.

11             Now, Mr. Krejic, you'll see that on this map Serbs are denoted by

12     blue, Croats by red, and Muslims by green.  And in the table at the top

13     right-hand corner - if we could zoom in on that, please - you'll see that

14     for 1991 this map shows that approximately 70 per cent of the population

15     of Skender Vakuf was Serb, approximately 20 per cent was Croat, and about

16     5 per cent Muslim.

17             Now, from your knowledge are these figures correct?

18        A.   Approximately.

19             MR. DOBBYN:  Now, if we could move down and see the map as a

20     whole, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Krejic, you'll see that on the map it shows that the Croat

22     population of Skender Vakuf was basically clustered in the south-west of

23     the municipality, with one Croat pocket to the north-east of

24     Skender Vakuf, the town named Pavlovici.  Otherwise, the rest of the

25     municipality was predominantly Serb, and there are no Muslim-majority

Page 14030

 1     areas shown.  Is this distribution an accurate reflection of the

 2     situation in 1991?

 3        A.   This is quite accurate, in fact.  There's just one error here.

 4     North-east of Knezevo, it's the village of Pavlovici, purportedly with a

 5     Croat population.  And that's an error because it never existed.  All the

 6     rest is correct.  But in Skender Vakuf, as it was called at the time,

 7     there were Muslims and there are none marked here.

 8        Q.   So is it correct that the majority of Muslims in the municipality

 9     lived in the town of Knezevo or Skender Vakuf itself?

10        A.   They all lived in Knezevo.

11        Q.   And I'd just like to briefly clarify this point about the village

12     of Pavlovici.  Are you saying that this village never existed?

13        A.   It's not a town at all.  Approximately in this area it's the

14     village of Bastaja, and there's a hamlet which is part of Bastaja called

15     Pavlovici, but only Serbs lived there.  Croats never lived there.  It

16     must be just a technical mistake.

17             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, with that one correction pointed out

18     by the witness, I would seek the admission of this document.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry, Your Honours.  I basically

20     agree with what Mr. Dobbyn is suggesting, but it came to my attention

21     actually right now, and I'm really sorry that I missed that, that these

22     maps were created by the Republic of Croatia in 1991, and they -- they

23     actually are aimed in showing the -- the Croatian -- the Croatian

24     population movement between 1948 and 1981.

25             So I don't -- I honestly don't think that these kind of documents

Page 14031

 1     can be used in a serious trial because at 1991 this was used as a

 2     propaganda, as you can imagine, because it's -- it's only well known that

 3     each of the sides were producing maps like this and that.

 4             So I would kindly invite our friends from the Prosecutor's side

 5     to give us some more reliable maps.  I mean, maps as such are -- should

 6     be geographically okay, and we might use them for the geography, but we

 7     cannot use them for the population numbers because I have a really

 8     serious doubt about their accuracy.

 9             Thank you very much.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, save for maps which are confined to

11     showing geographical features, all maps could probably be criticised as

12     being politically biased in some way or other, and it seems to me that

13     the -- save for counsel giving evidence, which at one point I thought you

14     were in danger of doing, the problem, which the OTP probably accepts, is

15     cured, if cured it could be, by the oral testimony they just elicited

16     from the witness.

17             So in other words, the Chamber would have the map.  And to the

18     extent that there are any flaws, the Chamber would then have to look at

19     it alongside the explanation given by this witness or any other witness.

20             But returning to the application to return it, Mr. Dobbyn, I

21     thought we had this.

22             MR. DOBBYN:  Not as far as I'm aware, Your Honours.  I believe

23     it's -- it hasn't been shown before.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is it -- it is 65 ter 10236.13?  Right?

25             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 14032

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1570, Your Honours.

 4             MR. DOBBYN:

 5        Q.   Mr. Krejic, I'd now like to turn to another topic and ask you

 6     some questions about convoys passing through your municipality in 1992.

 7     And while you were chief of the SJB in 1992, do you recall any convoys

 8     passing through Skender Vakuf or Knezevo municipality?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   Who was being transported in these convoys?

11        A.   For the most part, non-Serbs.

12        Q.   Can you estimate how many convoys you were aware of passing

13     through your municipality in 1992 while you were there?

14        A.   I don't know the exact number, but a relatively high number.

15        Q.   Do you know where these convoys came from?

16        A.   They came from the areas covered by the security services centre

17     in Banja Luka for the most part.

18        Q.   And do you know where these convoys were heading to?

19        A.   They came from the direction of Banja Luka, and they were heading

20     for Travnik.

21        Q.   And Travnik, that was Muslim-held territory, wasn't it?

22        A.   Yes.  And at the beginning and in the course of the 1990s, there

23     were also Croat forces there.

24        Q.   Were you aware of any convoys passing in --

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry.  Page 16, 10, I believe the

Page 14033

 1     witness said during the course of 1992.  If you can clarify that.

 2             MR. DOBBYN:  I will.

 3        Q.   Mr. Krejic, I'd like to go back to the answer you just gave.  Did

 4     you say that "... at the beginning and in the course of 1992, there were

 5     also Croat forces there," or did you say during -- at the beginning of

 6     the 1990s, "in the course of the 1990s"?

 7        A.   1992.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the question I was asking, were you aware of any

 9     convoys passing in the opposite direction carrying Serb civilians from

10     Muslim-held territory through Skender Vakuf?

11        A.   The arrival and transfer of Serb civilians in the opposite

12     direction did occur, but they were not in convoys.  It was done in a

13     different way.  The convoys, well, that was a difficult situation, too,

14     but the Serbs had it much harder, in fact.

15        Q.   Now, with regards to the convoys moving through to Travnik, do

16     you know who guarded or escorted these convoys?

17        A.   As far as I knew, they were for the most part escorted by the

18     police from whatever public security station covered the area from which

19     the people hailed, from which they were being moved out.

20             MR. DOBBYN:  Could I now show 65 ter 3132.  This is another map.

21     It's in tab 2 of the Prosecution's documents.

22        Q.   And what we're going to be looking at, Mr. Krejic, is another map

23     of the municipality of Skender Vakuf.  What I would like is, with the

24     help of the usher, if you could on that map indicate the route that these

25     convoys took when they were passing through Skender Vakuf towards

Page 14034

 1     Travnik.

 2        A.   So they came in from the direction of Banja Luka, they took this

 3     it route to Knezevo, and then they took the old road to Travnik.  That's

 4     the one.  That's the road.

 5        Q.   And on that map, could you indicate the location of

 6     Koricanske Stijene.

 7        A.   Well, approximately here.

 8        Q.   Perhaps if you could just put the number 1 beside that, please.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10             MR. DOBBYN:  I'd like to tender the map at this time,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1571, Your Honours.

14             MR. DOBBYN:

15        Q.   Mr. Krejic, now I'd like to turn to a specific convoy from the

16     21st of August, 1992.  And around that time, the 21st of August or

17     shortly thereafter, did you receive some information that some people

18     from a convoy had been killed?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How did you first hear about this incident?

21        A.   The date was most probably the 23rd of August, 1992.  In the

22     early morning, my duty officer, policeman, notified me that he had

23     received a report from the duty officer at the operations desk of the

24     Banja Luka Security Services Centre to the effect that in the

25     Koricanske Stijene area around 150 people had been killed.  Those people

Page 14035

 1     had been in a convoy.

 2        Q.   Now, the information you received from your duty officer, did

 3     that also include who the perpetrators of these killings were believed to

 4     be?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Did the information that you received from your duty officer

 7     contain anything about the role of the police escorting that convoy?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Were you aware at that time where the police escorting that

10     convoy came from?

11        A.   No, but quite soon after that I learned that this had been the

12     last convoy to leave Prijedor.

13        Q.   Did there come a time where you received information about who

14     the perpetrators of this killing was?

15        A.   No, never.

16        Q.   Do you recall the full detail that you received from the duty

17     officer?

18        A.   It was a very brief report, a single sentence, in fact.

19        Q.   And do you recall what the content of that sentence was?

20        A.   Well, as I've already told you a moment ago to the effect that in

21     the area of Koricanske Stijene about 150 people who were on a convoy were

22     killed.

23        Q.   Did you find out the specific date, either during this

24     communication or any subsequent time, that these killings took place?

25        A.   When I went to the scene, I learnt when the incident had actually

Page 14036

 1     happened.

 2        Q.   And what did you learn about when the incident had happened?

 3        A.   I learnt that it happened on the 21st of August.

 4        Q.   After getting this call from your duty officer, do you recall if

 5     you then contacted anyone yourself?

 6        A.   Yes.  I contacted the chief of the security services centre in

 7     Banja Luka, Stojan Zupljanin.

 8        Q.   And what did you tell Mr. Zupljanin?

 9        A.   I told him that I had received information, the information that

10     I've just shared with you.

11        Q.   What instructions, if any, did you receive from Mr. Zupljanin in

12     that conversation?

13        A.   Yes.  He told me verbatim that I should take the chief of the

14     crime police with me -- or, rather, instruct him to go to the scene

15     immediately.  I was to check what was going on and report to him

16     forthwith.

17        Q.   Did you follow Mr. Zupljanin's instructions and go to the crime

18     scene?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And did --

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm sorry.  There is some error in the transcript.

22     Can the witness repeat the last answer on the line 19, 20 -- 25.

23     Page 19, line 95 [sic].

24             MR. DOBBYN:  I'm sorry, page 19, which lines?

25             MR. KRGOVIC:  Page 19, line 95 [sic].

Page 14037

 1             MR. DOBBYN:  I have differing numbering here on mine, so is this

 2     the question:

 3             "What instructions, if any, did you receive from

 4     Mr. Zupljanin ..."?

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Microphone not activated].

 6             MR. DOBBYN:

 7        Q.   Yes.  I'll ask that question again, Mr. Krejic.  When you called

 8     Mr. Zupljanin, what instructions, if any, did you receive from him?

 9        A.   Yes.  That was an order to take the chief of the crime service

10     with me, that we go to the scene together to check the initial report, to

11     gather as much additional information as possible, and to inform him as

12     soon as we returned.

13        Q.   You've already said, following that, that you did, in fact, go to

14     the crime scene.  Did you take someone else with you?

15        A.   Yes.  Milorad Veleusic came with me, and he was the chief of the

16     criminal investigation service, but he was also, at that time, acting

17     commander of the police station.

18        Q.   When you arrived at the crime scene at Koricanske Stijene, could

19     you see whether or not the location had been secured?

20        A.   No, it was not secured.

21        Q.   And what did you see when you got to the location?

22        A.   Well, at first we didn't know the exact place where it happened.

23     Milorad was driving, and I was looking through the open window at the

24     side of the road.  And just on the right-hand side of the road, at the

25     beginning of a very deep canyon, behind some shrubs I noticed down the

Page 14038

 1     cliff about a dozen human bodies.  That was the first thing I noticed.

 2        Q.   Did you subsequently see some more bodies?

 3        A.   We got out of the car at that spot where I had seen those dozen

 4     bodies or so.  We looked around and we looked in front of us, and some

 5     30 or 50 metres in front of us it turned out that there were many more

 6     bodies.  And then we got back into the car, drove to that spot, got out

 7     of the car again, and we saw, in our rough estimate, between 150 and

 8     200 bodies.

 9        Q.   I'd like you now to have a look at a photograph.

10             MR. DOBBYN:  If we could show 65 ter 2266.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And while we wait for the photograph to come up,

12     Mr. Witness, did you also notice if there were any ammunition shells on

13     the road where you parked the car or in -- in that area?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we couldn't see anything like

15     that.  But even if there had been any ammunition shells, that was not our

16     priority at the time.  We were looking at the dead bodies.

17             MR. DOBBYN:

18        Q.   Mr. Krejic, the photograph that's in front of you, do you

19     recognise this location as Koricanske Stijene?

20        A.   Well, I cannot be 100 per cent sure, but I believe that's it.

21        Q.   And could you take the pen again and mark where you believe the

22     location is that you saw the first grouping of about a dozen bodies.  If

23     you could put an X there.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   And next to that could you put the number 1, please.

Page 14039

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Mr. Krejic, could you then mark where you believe you saw the

 3     remainder, the 150 to 200 bodies, again with an X.  Or perhaps with a --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, could we suggest that this is done with the

 5     red pen?  I think it would be better seen in the photograph.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I agree, Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. DOBBYN:  Certainly, yes.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 9             MR. DOBBYN:

10        Q.   And could you then draw perhaps a circle around the area where

11     you saw the 150 to 200 bodies.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And just a number 2 next to that.  Thank you.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. DOBBYN:  I'd seek to tender this photograph now,

17     Your Honours, with its markings.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1572, Your Honours.

20             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, are we taking the break at the usual

21     time?  I'd be happy to do so now.

22             JUDGE HALL:  If this is convenient, yes.

23             MR. DOBBYN:  It is a convenient time, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

Page 14040

 1                           --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

 2             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, for the record --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Just a moment.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the Court Usher please switch off his

 6     microphone.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.

 8             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honours.  I just wanted to add for the

 9     record that we have been joined by Ms. Pidwell on the Prosecution side.

10             JUDGE HALL:  The -- you indicated you're joined by Ms. Pidwell.

11     Is she going to respond to the query which the Chamber had on this file

12     as to when it was that the -- in terms of the sequence of events which we

13     have been alerted to when the -- when precisely the Defence would have

14     been -- it would have been disclosed to the Defence and when the

15     Prosecution received it?

16             MR. DOBBYN:  No, Your Honours.  And I'm sorry, I didn't realise

17     that that had been left unclear.  Again, I don't have those full details.

18     The lawyer who is handling that witness does have those details.  It was

19     my understanding it's included in the Prosecution's motion.  But if not,

20     again, he can come in at the start of the next session.  I believe it's

21     in the motion and the information I provided before.  I didn't realise

22     there had been any uncertainty left there.

23             JUDGE HALL:  I'm sorry I misunderstood you, because I thought

24     that is what Ms. Pidwell was here to answer.

25             MR. DOBBYN:  No, Your Honour.  That's ...

Page 14041

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Dobbyn, for the Chamber to address the

 4     objection raised by the Defence, the Chamber would wish to know exactly

 5     when the Prosecution received the case file in question.  You told us

 6     this morning [sic] that you had submitted it to the Defence on

 7     17th of August, yet the challenge was raised in April.  So I assume that

 8     somewhere between April and August you actually received the file, unless

 9     you had already taken possession of it prior to -- to April, I don't

10     know.  But the Chamber would wish to have this piece of information as

11     soon as possible.

12             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honour.  We're looking for that

13     information now.  And as soon as it becomes available, I'll let the

14     Trial Chamber know.

15             JUDGE HALL:  So could we have the witness back on the stand,

16     please.

17             Mr. Zecevic, the -- on the application related to 197, we would

18     wish -- we're requesting an expedited response from the Defence by

19     tomorrow.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, the request which I have just addressed

23     to Mr. Zecevic, out of an abundance of caution, I say the same thing to

24     you, although I'm not sure that it immediately affects your client.  But

25     if you do have an interest in this matter, we would expect your response

Page 14042

 1     by tomorrow.  Thanks.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once the Prosecution

 3     has given us an explanation as to why this motion had to be filed just a

 4     few days ago and not earlier, I would kindly ask you to grant me some

 5     time to respond to the motion.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  When you say "some time," are you saying that you

 7     could not be ready by tomorrow?

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No.  I would -- well, the way I

 9     understand the Prosecution, I would like the Prosecution to explain why

10     once the Manjaca file from the Prosecution was received we received

11     notice on the 17th of August.  It was disclosed then.  So why did they

12     wait from the 17th of August until the 26th for the disclosure?  I would

13     like to get an explanation for that.  I have a very important reason why

14     I'm asking for this explanation.

15             JUDGE HALL:  So that's back on the matter of the file that --

16     yes.  Thank you.  Thank you.

17             Yes, Mr. Dobbyn, you may continue.

18             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Krejic, when we left off, you had just described arriving at

20     the scene of Koricanske Stijene and seeing the various bodies in that

21     area.  Now, at this time, around the 22nd, 23rd of August, did you have a

22     police unit that was stationed in the Koricani area?

23        A.   My police unit was not stationed at Koricanske Stijene but some

24     4 to 5 kilometres away from it in the direction of Travnik, above the

25     Ugar River canyon to be more specific.  And at that time it was part of

Page 14043

 1     the Republika Srpska army.  It had been reattached, resubordinated, to

 2     the Republika Srpska army and was taking part in combat.  It did not

 3     perform regular police work.

 4        Q.   Now, this unit, where it was stationed, was this along the route

 5     that convoys travelling through your municipality on their way to Travnik

 6     would take?

 7        A.   Yes.  It was stationed by this route, and its task was precisely

 8     to protect this road.

 9        Q.   After viewing the crime site, did you go and speak to members of

10     this unit to gather more information?

11        A.   Yes.  This convoy had to pass by my unit twice because of the

12     situation, how it was, and I assumed that the personnel in that unit

13     might have some information.

14        Q.   And, in fact, did some members of that unit speak to -- to police

15     who had been escorting that particular convoy?

16        A.   Yes.  When I arrived in the unit, it turned out that the police

17     from Prijedor did stop by at the command post of my unit on their way

18     back.  They took a short break there.  And on that occasion they spoke

19     with the personnel from my unit.

20        Q.   When you refer to the police from Prijedor, just to be clear, are

21     these the police who are escorting that convoy on the 21st of August?

22        A.   Yes.  Based on the statements elicited from the personnel from my

23     unit, it was clear that they were able to identify those people as

24     members of the public security station in Prijedor who had been escorting

25     the convoy.

Page 14044

 1        Q.   And what -- you said that the police from Prijedor stopped --

 2     stopped and spoke with the personnel from your unit.  Did you get any

 3     information as to what they had told the members of your unit about what

 4     had happened to the convoy?

 5        A.   Yes.  The gist of the conversation was this:  They admitted that

 6     they had killed those people at Koricanske Stijene.

 7        Q.   Did they show members of your unit any property that had belonged

 8     to people who were on that convoy?

 9        A.   Well, based on what one of the members of my police unit said,

10     the men from Prijedor allegedly showed them money and golden items.  But

11     because I know this police officer of mine well, I think it's 50/50

12     whether it's really true are or not.

13        Q.   When you say it's 50/50 as to whether this is really true, are

14     you talking about whether they had been shown money and gold items?

15        A.   Yes.  I had doubts about the veracity of his account that money

16     and gold had been shown to him.

17        Q.   Okay.  After visiting the crime site and speaking to the members

18     of this unit of yours, did you report back to Mr. Zupljanin?

19        A.   Yes.  Immediately upon my return, I reported to Chief Zupljanin.

20     I told him about everything I had learnt at the scene and also from the

21     personnel from my unit.

22        Q.   Did that include telling him that the perpetrators were police

23     from Prijedor?

24        A.   I told him that I had heard from the personnel from my unit, from

25     my police unit, that the perpetrators were from the public security

Page 14045

 1     station in Prijedor.

 2        Q.   And did you also pass on to Mr. Zupljanin the number of bodies

 3     you had seen at the crime site?

 4        A.   I did not even attempt to establish the number of bodies because

 5     it was impossible to do that from where I stood, but my estimate and the

 6     estimate of my escort was anywhere between 150 and 200 bodies.

 7        Q.   Did you tell Mr. Zupljanin that that was your estimate as to how

 8     many bodies were down there?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, what was Mr. Zupljanin's response to this information that

11     he received from you?

12        A.   He said that early in the morning I should come to the security

13     services centre headquarters in Banja Luka, together with two highest

14     ranking people in the Knezevo municipality, the president of the

15     Assembly, Municipal Assembly, and the President of the Executive Board.

16        Q.   And who was the president of the Municipal Assembly?

17        A.   The president of the Municipal Assembly was Milan Komljenovic.

18        Q.   And who was the president of the Executive Board?

19        A.   Vladimir Glamocic.

20        Q.   Now, just to go back, when you reported to Mr. Zupljanin about

21     what you had found at the crime scene, how did you report to him?  Was it

22     in person or by -- by phone or some other means?

23        A.   I'm not sure, but I think it was by phone.

24        Q.   Now, did you go to meet with Mr. Zupljanin as requested with

25     Mr. Komljenovic and Mr. Glamocic the following day?

Page 14046

 1        A.   Yes.  I considered all demands made by Chief Zupljanin as orders,

 2     and I obeyed my orders.

 3        Q.   When you got to Banja Luka, did you have an opportunity to speak

 4     with Mr. Zupljanin privately?

 5        A.   Yes.  Before the meeting itself, maybe some five minutes or so.

 6        Q.   And what did you tell Mr. Zupljanin when you spoke with him

 7     before the meeting?

 8        A.   I shared with him everything that I had learnt in the field, and

 9     I also told him what the position was taken by the key people in the

10     Knezevo municipality, the people in the leadership.

11        Q.   And what position was taken by the key people in the Knezevo

12     municipality?

13        A.   The key people in the leadership, and, in fact, the whole

14     population - the members of the police force, of the army in the

15     municipality of Knezevo - condemned vigorously that act, and they were

16     appalled by what had happened, particularly because in our municipality

17     there had been no war crimes, no mass or multiple murders, and the public

18     saw this incident as something that is going to besmirch our

19     municipality.

20        Q.   Now, after speaking to Mr. Zupljanin privately, you said you

21     attended a meeting.  Could you tell us who was present at that meeting?

22        A.   Chief Stojan Zupljanin, who chaired the meeting, chief of the

23     public security department in the security services centre in Banja Luka;

24     Djuro Bulic; myself; the president of the Knezevo Municipal Assembly; the

25     president of the Executive Board of the Knezevo Municipal Assembly; the

Page 14047

 1     president of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly; the chief of the public

 2     security station in Prijedor, Simo Drljaca; and I think that there was

 3     another person from Prijedor, but I'm not sure about that.  I think it

 4     may have been the president of the Executive Board of the Prijedor

 5     municipality.  He is, in fact, the only person I didn't know.

 6        Q.   The president of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly, was that

 7     Milomir Stakic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Could you tell us what was discussed at this meeting.

10        A.   Well, it didn't really look like your normal meeting because

11     right at the very beginning there was a quarrel between on one side the

12     Knezevo people, the president of the Municipal Assembly and the

13     Executive Board, and on the other side the leadership from Prijedor.  And

14     at one point or several times, in fact, it almost came to blows.

15        Q.   At this meeting was there any open acknowledgement that these

16     killings at Koricanske Stijene had been committed by policemen from

17     Prijedor?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did -- sorry.  Were you going to say something further then?

20        A.   Yes.  That was quite uncontroversial, and the people from

21     Prijedor admitted that it had been done.

22        Q.   You say they admitted that it had been done.  What was their

23     attitude towards what had been done?  Were they opposed to it?  Were they

24     in favour of it?

25        A.   They thought it was normal, and Simo Drljaca was the most vocal

Page 14048

 1     about it, bragging, in a way, of the fact.

 2        Q.   What was Mr. Zupljanin's response to this?

 3        A.   When I met with Chief Zupljanin in private at -- in the morning

 4     before the meeting, I noticed that he appeared to be shaken.  He was

 5     visibly shaken.  He condemned the incident strenuously.  He called a

 6     spade a spade.  He said it was a crime.  And he took more or less the

 7     same position as we from Knezevo did.  And Chief Bulic was closer to the

 8     people from Prijedor in his views.

 9        Q.   What was the conclusion or how did this -- this meeting end?

10     What conclusions were reached as to what should happen next?

11        A.   After a lot of quarreling and bickering, Chief Zupljanin insisted

12     on recovering the bodies of the victims.  He insisted that those bodies

13     should be identified and, finally, buried.  At one point he reacted very

14     harshly to what Simo Drljaca was saying.  He told him in no uncertain

15     terms that he would insist on prosecuting the perpetrators of that crime.

16        Q.   Well, did Mr. Zupljanin at that meeting give any specific orders

17     as to any investigatory steps that should be taken, as opposed to steps

18     to remove the bodies from the location?

19        A.   As far as I know, he could not issue orders to the presidents of

20     the Municipal Assemblies and the presidents of the Executive Boards.

21        Q.   Was he --

22        A.   But --

23        Q.   Sorry.  Was he in a position to issue orders to you, to

24     Djuro Bulic, and Simo Drljaca?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 14049

 1        Q.   Now, was there a point during the meeting where Mr. Zupljanin

 2     read a dispatch or letter to those who were present?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you remember the content of that dispatch or letter?

 5        A.   That dispatch was allegedly sent by the President of

 6     Republika Srpska, Mr. Karadzic.  He was purportedly at a peace conference

 7     abroad.

 8             As for the contents, the president from the plains and the

 9     president from the mountain should assist the chief of the security

10     services centre to deal with this issue.

11        Q.   What was meant or who was meant by the president from the plain

12     and the president from the mountain?

13        A.   The plain was probably a reference to Prijedor; and the mountain,

14     given our altitude, is -- it was Knezevo.

15        Q.   Now, you said that Mr. Zupljanin insisted that the bodies be

16     removed.  Who was put in charge of removing the bodies?

17        A.   I don't know if "removing" is the most fortunate choice of term

18     in this case.  If any case, it was meant that these bodies should be

19     extracted from there and buried in a dignified manner, because if we use

20     the word "remove," that could have a negative connotation.

21        Q.   I'm sorry for the poor choice of words, but could you tell us who

22     was to be responsible for recovering the bodies.

23        A.   This task befell the municipality of Prijedor.  This municipality

24     was more developed.  They also had the necessary machinery that was used

25     in their municipality in various mines, and they were tasked with the

Page 14050

 1     recovery, the transport, and the burial of the bodies.

 2        Q.   Did the fact that police from Prijedor had allegedly committed

 3     the crimes have anything to do with those from Prijedor being given

 4     responsibility for the clear-up?

 5        A.   Precisely.  That is what the presidents from Knezevo insisted

 6     upon.  It was their position and their conclusion that if you were up to

 7     commit such a horrendous crime, then at least do what you can to recover

 8     these bodies and bury them in a dignified manner, exculpating at least a

 9     part of your guilt.

10        Q.   Was Simo Drljaca given any specific role in relation to this

11     task?

12        A.   Yes.  He was supposed to co-ordinate in Prijedor between the

13     municipal authorities and the enterprises that owned such machinery, and

14     also to provide the personnel for recovering the bodies and burying them.

15        Q.   As far as -- as far as you're aware, did Mr. Drljaca ever take

16     care of this?

17        A.   None of these things were done in the seven or eight days that

18     followed.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  If the witness had been

20     told to speak slowly for the benefit of the interpreters, we really don't

21     need him to speak this slowly.

22             MR. DOBBYN:

23        Q.   Mr. Krejic, I've received a message from the interpreters that

24     you can actually speed up in your speech.  You don't need to talk as

25     slow.  The interpreters will be able to keep up with you.  If you just

Page 14051

 1     talk naturally.  Thank you.

 2             Now, sometime after this first meeting in Banja Luka, did you

 3     actually meet a survivor of the killings?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What were the circumstances of you meeting this person?

 6        A.   The members of the 22nd Brigade of the Army of Republika Srpska

 7     brought into the public security station of Knezevo one person whom they

 8     thought to be a survivor of the massacre at Koricanske Stijene.

 9        Q.   How long after the incident was this?

10        A.   Four or five days.

11        Q.   When this man was brought to you, did you contact Mr. Zupljanin?

12        A.   Yes.  I contacted him and informed him.

13        Q.   What instructions, if any, did Mr. Zupljanin give to you?

14        A.   Yes.  He ordered me again, very strictly, that I am personally

15     responsible for the security and safety of that person and that I should

16     bring him as soon as possible to the security services centre in

17     Banja Luka and turn him over to the service in charge.

18        Q.   Did you do as instructed and deliver this man to Banja Luka?

19        A.   Yes.  Immediately the next morning, as soon as he was brought

20     into my station, sometime around 11.00 p.m.

21        Q.   Did you discuss -- once you arrived at Banja Luka, did you

22     discuss with Mr. Zupljanin what would be done with this man?

23        A.   Yes, and he told me that he would be turned over to the

24     Swiss Red Cross.

25        Q.   Now, did you later attend a second meeting in Banja Luka CSB to

Page 14052

 1     discuss the issue of the killings?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you recall the date of the second meeting?

 4        A.   I think it was the 30th of August.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us who attended this particular meeting?  Actually,

 6     sorry, before you answer that question, I would ask you, Do you recall

 7     who called this meeting?

 8        A.   I don't recall exactly who gave me that information about the

 9     meeting.  And as for who attended, all those from that first meeting were

10     in attendance, except Chief Zupljanin.

11        Q.   Was this meeting again held at Banja Luka CSB?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, you've said Mr. Zupljanin didn't attend, but everyone else

14     from the first meeting did attend.  Were there also some other people

15     attending the second meeting who had not been at the first meeting?

16        A.   Yes.  The meeting was chaired by Minister of Defence

17     Bogdan Subotic; and there was also the commander of the 22nd Brigade,

18     Bosko Peulic; and if I remember well, there was also the investigating

19     judge and the prosecutor; then Brane Buhavac, who is chief of the

20     scene-of-crime officers; and two inspectors, one from the police section,

21     that means uniformed police, Dusan Kos, and the other one from the crime

22     investigation police.  The last name is Markovic, and his nickname was

23     Muric.  And there was also my deputy, my successor, in fact, because I

24     had already received a letter of new appointment transferring me,

25     beginning with September, to the CSB Banja Luka.

Page 14053

 1        Q.   Now, you mentioned that Brane Buhavac was in attendance and he

 2     was the chief of crime-scene officers.  Did he inform the meeting as to

 3     whether an on-site investigation had yet been conducted between the first

 4     and second meeting?

 5        A.   No.  He did not brief the meeting on that subject because we all

 6     knew that it hadn't been done.  Instead, he made a proposal how to go

 7     about it.

 8        Q.   What was the -- the topic of conversation at this second meeting?

 9        A.   The topic was the recovery of the remains of these people,

10     identification, after which the forensic pathologists would do their job,

11     followed by transport to the place where they would be buried.

12        Q.   You mentioned that at the first meeting there'd been a lot of

13     tension, arguments between the people from Knezevo and those from

14     Prijedor.  Was the tone at the second meeting similar or was it

15     different?

16        A.   The tone was completely different, either because the meeting was

17     chaired by the minister of defence, member of the cabinet of

18     Republika Srpska, or because as time passed there were more and more

19     people condemning the event, and those who thought it was a normal thing,

20     a matter of course, were fewer and fewer.

21        Q.   You mentioned that the topic of this meeting was, again, the

22     recovery of the remains and identification.  Can you recall if there were

23     any conclusions reached or orders given at the second meeting concerning

24     investigation of the killings?

25        A.   Since the hardest part of the work, in view of the layout of the

Page 14054

 1     terrain, was to recover the bodies, most of the discussion and

 2     conclusions focused on that issue, how to get them out.  And then

 3     Mr. Subotic, that is to say the minister, mentioned that after that or in

 4     parallel with that the security services centre and the competent

 5     judicial and prosecutorial authorities would normally conduct an

 6     investigation.

 7        Q.   Well, apart from removing the bodies, were there any specific

 8     steps that were decided with regards to identifying or arresting the

 9     perpetrators or otherwise investigating the crime, any specific steps

10     that were decided at the second meeting?

11        A.   I've already said that in the course of their discussion,

12     primarily the contributions by Mr. Subotic, it was implied that there

13     would be prosecution of the perpetrators, that they needed to be found

14     and prosecuted, but it was left to the technical services whose job it

15     was to do it.

16        Q.   After the meeting, what did you do at that point?

17        A.   We went to the scene.

18        Q.   Was it everyone that went -- everyone from the second meeting who

19     went to the scene?

20        A.   I think so.

21        Q.   Did Mr. Zupljanin accompany you to the crime scene on this visit?

22        A.   No, I did not see him that day.  He was not there.

23        Q.   When you arrived at the crime scene - this is the second time

24     you'd been there - did you see anything to indicate that the scene had

25     been secured since your last visit?

Page 14055

 1        A.   It was not secured.

 2        Q.   On the second visit, were the bodies, down in the gorge, were

 3     they as exposed to the elements as they had been on your first visit?

 4        A.   I knew before and I could see then that a segment of the civilian

 5     protection from Knezevo had been to the scene in the interval between the

 6     two meetings and cut down the shrubbery and the underbrush and used it to

 7     cover the bodies because the inhabitants of the nearby village Koricani,

 8     who were using rainwater to drink, complained that the birds and animals

 9     were dragging bits of the bodies and carrying them to rooftops, and they

10     had protested in Knezevo why nothing was being done to deal with it, and

11     that's why the civilian protection covered the bodies, so as to make them

12     inaccessible to animals.  And that is why when we came to the scene we

13     were unable to see the bodies or find out any more about them.

14        Q.   And where did you hear this, that it had been people from

15     Knezevo, civil protection, who had covered the bodies like this?

16        A.   I learned that already when I was back in Knezevo, because these

17     people had also been to the public security station to report these

18     incidents.  And apart from that, there was an unbearable stench.

19        Q.   Did you accompany the people from Knezevo Civil Protection when

20     they performed this task?

21        A.   No.  No.  That was not within the jurisdiction of the public

22     security station.

23        Q.   Now, on this -- this site visit after the second meeting, was

24     anything other than ways of recovering the bodies discussed?

25        A.   I'm afraid I didn't understand your question.

Page 14056

 1        Q.   Sorry.  I could have phrased that better.  The -- during this

 2     visit to the crime scene, what was the topic of discussion once you were

 3     there?

 4        A.   Well, people talked about how these conclusions made back in the

 5     office could be applied in the field.

 6        Q.   And these conclusions related to recovery of the bodies; correct?

 7        A.   The conclusion was crystal clear:  All the bodies, down to the

 8     last one, must be recovered, identified, and buried.

 9        Q.   Was there any discussion at the crime site of securing the crime

10     site for evidentiary purposes, for looking for evidence related to the

11     killings that would help you to identify the perpetrators?

12        A.   Quite possibly.  But by the nature of things -- or, rather,

13     specifically, I have stomach trouble, and I was about to move to a new

14     job within two days, and my successor was there, the man who would become

15     the next chief of public security Knezevo.  I was standing a bit away

16     from the others.  It's quite possible I didn't hear any conversation

17     about that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'll move on now.

19             MR. DOBBYN:  I'd like to look, if we could, at Exhibit P1567.

20     This is from tab 7 of the Prosecution's documents.  And what we're going

21     to be looking at is the amalgamated Vlasic Mountain case file.  And if we

22     could go to page 9 in the English, page 8 in the B/C/S.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Dobbyn, the Chamber just wishes to alert you

24     that you have 15 minutes left of your examination-in-chief.

25             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And I would ask, if at all

Page 14057

 1     possible, that I could have perhaps an extra 20 minutes.  I have simply a

 2     couple of videos after this that I would like to show.  I just want to

 3     make sure we get enough time to do those.  They are quite important to

 4     this whole issue relating to the investigation.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because much of what you have covered with this

 7     witness, we believe, is already included in the adjudicated facts, so if

 8     you have videos to show, I suggest you move on to that right away.

 9             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you, Your Honours, I will.  Before the videos,

10     actually, I'll show one more document, and I'll ...

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, I also see that it's time for the

13     break.  Shall we take that now?

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

15             Before we rise, Mr. Krgovic, just as a matter of clarification,

16     the -- what we were seeking to remind you of earlier was your response to

17     the motion regarding 197 that was filed today.  You've already responded

18     to your -- what you intend to do in respect of 1 -- with 128.

19             So we take the break now.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.

24             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honours.  We are joined now by

25     Matthew Olmsted, who is available to speak about the issue that has been

Page 14058

 1     raised with the motion.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just before Mr. Olmsted starts, I would like to

 4     announce for the record that Ms. Batista, Ivana, has joined the

 5     Stanisic Defence team.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honours.  First we should

 8     apologise.  We did not anticipate that this disclosure issue would be

 9     such a big matter, otherwise we would have gone into more details in our

10     motion itself.  We didn't anticipate a strong objection from the Defence,

11     given that this proposed exhibit is really more or less a continuation of

12     the case file they've already admitted into evidence.  So really it's

13     being tendered for this -- the reason of completeness so that the whole

14     file can be viewed in its entirety.

15             I cannot say for certainty exactly when we received this file;

16     that requires some investigation.  But looking at our system, I believe

17     it's been entered in sometime in late May of this year, and usually it's

18     entered within a couple weeks of receiving it.  So in a best possible

19     world, it should have been disclosed probably sometime in June of this

20     year.

21             Now, during the summer recess, as I began preparing for the

22     testimony of ST-128, it was at that time that I came to review this

23     particular document, at least the analysis of it, and when I found out

24     that it was relevant to ST-128, I at that stage ran a check to see

25     whether it had been disclosed, and it turned out that it hadn't, and at

Page 14059

 1     that stage I asked that it be disclosed as soon as possible.  And then I

 2     sent it for translation because without a translated copy of it, I can't

 3     review it to determine whether it's something we actually want to add to

 4     our 65 ter exhibit list.  And I received that translation last week, and

 5     then, talking with my colleagues, I determined that it was something we

 6     do want to add to our 65 ter list, and that's when we filed the motion.

 7             I hope that clarifies matters at least a little bit with regard

 8     to this particular document.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Olmsted.  Do I understand you

10     correctly that you do not intend to seek admission into evidence of this

11     case file, that you just wanted to include it in the 65 ter list as part

12     of the total case file in that incident for completeness, as you said?

13             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, perhaps I don't understand, Your Honour, but

14     what we intended to do is add it to our 65 ter list at this stage, then I

15     do have some questions with regard to it with ST-128, and at that stage,

16     after he's answered those questions, to tender it into evidence but as --

17     really part and parcel of the entire file, which is -- part of it which

18     has been admitted into evidence already.  So that the Trial Chamber, when

19     it sits down and evaluates this issue, can have both files there and look

20     at the whole thing.

21             The purpose of tendering it is to put into context the

22     prosecution's -- the office of the prosecutor's side of things, and by

23     that I mean the Banja Luka Basic Prosecutor's Office that was functioning

24     in 1992 and how they were processing this case through their system up

25     until -- well, the date of the case file, I think, ends sometime in 2007.

Page 14060

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted, in order to avoid misunderstandings

 3     in the future, I think you should always anticipate strong objections,

 4     not only by the Defence but also by the Trial Chamber, for this kind of

 5     late-minute -- last-minute motions.  Thank you.

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours.  We appreciate that.  And this

 7     was certainly something that we didn't want to happen.  We never want

 8     this to happen, and -- but sometimes it does, and we will, of course,

 9     be -- do our best to be more diligent with regard to this issue in the

10     future.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Olmsted.

12             Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when it comes to

14     those documents, and more specifically the documents that the Prosecution

15     has just discussed, I would like to make an observation.  This document

16     was submitted to us, disclosed to us, on 16th of August, together with

17     some 16 other batches of thousands of pages, and that's clearly Rule 68

18     material pertaining to the protected witness we completed examining

19     yesterday.  And it is indicative that the Prosecution filed a motion to

20     tender this document yesterday.  If I had had this document, I would have

21     used it in my cross-examination, and especially in the latter part when

22     we discussed Manjaca.  And I did ask some questions of the witness in the

23     course of my cross-examination yesterday, and it was clear to the

24     Prosecution when it received this document as early as in June that this

25     is Rule 68 material.

Page 14061

 1             If you look at my line of questioning yesterday and if you look

 2     at this document if you admit it, you will see the correlation.  It

 3     speaks about the role, the place, the chain of command for

 4     Witness ST-023.  And this is why I have a problem with this kind of

 5     disclosure of this kind of material.  And if I had had this material, I

 6     would have used it yesterday.  I would have tendered it yesterday.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, if I may just address that briefly.

 8     Ms. Korner's not here, but it's my understanding from my conversation

 9     with her last week is that the Defence was alerted to this particular

10     document and even received representations that it might be used during

11     cross-examination of the last witness.  Now, I can't confirm that for a

12     certainty without talking to Ms. Korner.  Perhaps Mr. Zecevic can confirm

13     that for us.  But I believe they did have it and they were aware of it

14     for purposes of cross-examination of the last witness.

15             I know that doesn't touch on this particular motion because this

16     is with regard to a witness who is going to testify tomorrow or Friday,

17     but I just want to make sure that it's clear that - and I'll have to

18     check on this - that the Defence did have notice of this particular

19     document for the purposes of the last witness.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, we had a

21     different document.  It was an interview of another witness.  I don't

22     want to mention his name because he might be a protected witness.  We

23     couldn't use this interview and put it to the witness, and we were not

24     allowed to put any materials from other witnesses to this witness.  So

25     this material was not disclosed to us as Rule 68 material.

Page 14062

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, I heard you say that you would have

 3     tendered it yesterday, but do I have to conclude from that that you're

 4     not opposed to the addition of this material to the 65 ter list?  Or did

 5     I misunderstand you?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are two

 7     different matters.  This is precisely the reason why I opposed to the

 8     tendering of documents in this manner.  And as my learned friend

 9     Mr. Zecevic has said, the Prosecution is throwing tonnes of documents at

10     us, burying us in material.  And we get this kind of material at a very

11     late stage, we don't have enough time to go through it, and this is the

12     final result.

13             I would have used it in my cross-examination if I had had it.

14     Now, the question is whether the Prosecution would have allowed me to

15     tender it to that purpose, and this is why I think that the Prosecution

16     opted -- this might be a coincidence, I don't want to claim it, but they

17     decided to disclose to us in this way after the cross-examination was

18     already completed, and this is why I have this concern and why we wanted

19     to share this concern with the Trial Chamber.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I can represent absolutely that that

21     was not the intention of the Prosecutor -- the Prosecution in this

22     matter.  And, again, I need to talk to Ms. Korner about this, but I

23     believe that the Defence were aware of this particular document or the

24     statements contained within it for purposes of the last witness's

25     testimony because we were under the impression that they were going to

Page 14063

 1     use it for cross-examination and they chose not to.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Before we bring this discussion to a

 3     close - obviously it isn't something on which we're going to rule

 4     today - Mr. Krgovic, unless I missed it, I didn't hear you answer

 5     Judge Delvoie's question as to whether you -- I understand that you would

 6     have liked to have been in a position to use this yesterday, but what is

 7     your position now in terms of the reception of this document?

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, our position at this

 9     point is the same as the one presented by Mr. Zecevic.  So we fully

10     support his position.

11             JUDGE HALL:  I see.  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.

13             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, before I continue with my

14     questioning ...

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE HALL:  The -- I'm reminded, as this witness is coming

17     tomorrow, that we should give our ruling now.  And our ruling is that we

18     refuse the Prosecution's request to admit the document on the basis that

19     the Prosecution, in the Chamber's view, has failed to show due diligence.

20             Yes, Mr. Dobbyn.  Please continue.

21             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honours.  And before I do continue with my

22     examination, I'm going to renew my application for an extra 20 minutes.

23     And I'd like to address His Honour Judge Harhoff's comment that the last

24     hour and a half or so of testimony has been covered by adjudicated facts.

25     Over the course of the break, I've reviewed the adjudicated facts that we

Page 14064

 1     have on Vlasic Mountain, and what we have in the adjudicated facts simply

 2     relates to the progress of the convoy and what actually happened on the

 3     mountain when they were killed.

 4             We have no adjudicated facts that cover these two meetings in CSB

 5     Banja Luka, one of which was attended by Mr. Zupljanin; we have no

 6     adjudicated facts showing what Mr. Zupljanin was aware of and when he

 7     became aware of it.  There's nothing along those lines as far as

 8     reporting and the dates.  And also there's nothing in the adjudicated

 9     facts addressing what steps, if any, were taken to investigate the

10     matter, and that has been the thrust of this witness's testimony.  And

11     that's why I'm seeking an extra 20 minutes.

12             So I would respectfully ask that you reconsider that decision.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  You have an additional 15 minutes, Mr. Dobbyn.

15             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I'll make sure to use that

16     properly.

17             At this point I'd like to call up Exhibit P1567.  This is the

18     amalgamated Vlasic Mountain case file.  And I had asked earlier that we

19     go to pages 9 in the English and 8 in the B/C/S.

20        Q.   And while we're waiting for that come up, Mr. Krejic, you had

21     mentioned earlier that a survivor of the massacre had been brought to you

22     and that you had personally delivered him to CSB Banja Luka and spoken to

23     Mr. Zupljanin about that, about that survivor.  And if you look on the

24     screen in front of you, what you'll see is an Official Note from

25     CSB Banja Luka dated the 8th of September, 1992, and you can see that

Page 14065

 1     it's in relation to an interview with a survivor of the killings.  You'll

 2     also see that the document states that the interview took place on the

 3     23rd of August at SJB Skender Vakuf and that it's signed by

 4     Dragomir Markovic.

 5             Now, Mr. Krejic, this Dragomir Markovic, is this the same

 6     Markovic you referred to as having attended the second meeting at

 7     CSB Banja Luka?

 8        A.   If I may, I would like to say first of all that this is probably

 9     not the same person - now I'm talking about the survivor - because the

10     person that I brought to Banja Luka was 40 to 45 years old, and I can see

11     that this person was born in 1969.  So that's one thing.  And secondly --

12        Q.   Sorry, if I can just address that.  I'm not trying to say that

13     this is the same person.  I'm simply asking you to see that this is a

14     statement that was taken from a survivor with the one you delivered or a

15     different survivor, and I'm asking if Mr. Markovic is the same one who

16     attended that meeting at CSB Banja Luka.

17        A.   I think so, although I don't know his name, but I think it's

18     that -- the same person, Dragomir Markovic.

19        Q.   Now, looking at the -- at the body of the document and the

20     content of it, we can see that this survivor corroborates the information

21     that you had received, correct, that the killings had been committed by

22     police escorting a convoy?  Isn't that right?  Do you see that there?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, in this amalgamated Vlasic Mountain case file, there are

25     several other such statements that were taken.  And if you recall,

Page 14066

 1     Mr. Krejic, you had the opportunity to look at them during proofing.  But

 2     in the interests of saving time, I won't look at those individually and

 3     will move on.

 4             MR. DOBBYN:  I'd like now to look at 65 ter number 543.

 5        Q.   And what you see in front of you now, Mr. Krejic, is a dispatch

 6     from CSB Banja Luka to the chief of SJB Prijedor, dated

 7     11 September 1992, and at the bottom you'll see Stojan Zupljanin's name

 8     there.  Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, have you seen this document before, Mr. Krejic?

11        A.   When I spoke with the Prosecution.  That was the only time.

12        Q.   Is there anything about this document that would suggest to you

13     that it's not an authentic communication, an authentic document, from

14     CSB Banja Luka?

15        A.   I think it's an authentic document.

16        Q.   You see in this document that in the body it includes an order

17     from the minister, Mico Stanisic, to conduct a full investigation.  And

18     further under that it states, and this is from Mr. Zupljanin:

19              "In connection with this order, it is necessary to immediately

20     take written statements about the events at Skender Vakuf ... from the

21     policemen that escorted the convoy from Prijedor to the border with

22     Travnik on 21 August 1992."

23             Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Krejic, this is dated the 11th of September,

Page 14067

 1     approximately three weeks after the killings, and as an SJB chief

 2     yourself and experienced policeman, considering the information that was

 3     available about the involvement of the Prijedor police in these killings

 4     and the fact that this had been confirmed by survivors of the killings,

 5     would you have expected that such steps, that is, taking interviews from

 6     the policemen who escorted that convoy, would have been ordered much

 7     sooner?

 8        A.   In my opinion, this order was issued too late, but that was

 9     because of the situation on the ground, and by that I mean the situation

10     in the Banja Luka Security Services Centre.  So that if I hark back to

11     that area, the delay sounds like business as usual, given the situation

12     that existed there at the time.

13        Q.   Well, what exactly do you mean by "the situation that existed

14     there at the time"?

15        A.   Some of the public security stations, and I mean in particular

16     Prijedor and Simo Drljaca, were disobedient, to put it mildly,

17     undisciplined.  They did what they wanted in performing their everyday

18     law enforcement tasks.  And they had a strong political backing of the

19     entire region, the Podkozarje region, and Prijedor is the centre of that

20     region.  And they also enjoyed a great deal of support from a part of the

21     leadership of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, so that Chief Stojan

22     Zupljanin found it really hard to deal primarily with the Prijedor Public

23     Security Station.

24             And I would like to note that because of this power that they

25     had, Prijedor, later on in the course of the war, became the security

Page 14068

 1     services centre itself.

 2             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, just at this moment I just ask that

 3     Mr. Olmsted be given permission to leave the courtroom.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, he may withdraw.

 5             MR. DOBBYN:

 6        Q.   Now, be that as it may, the situation you've just described, that

 7     wouldn't have prevented Mr. Zupljanin from actually issuing an order,

 8     would it?  There may be issues as to whether it was obey, but that would

 9     not have stopped him from issuing this order earlier.  Is that correct?

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, I think it's calling for speculation,

11     and ...

12             JUDGE HALL:  I was waiting for that objection, Mr. Krgovic.

13             Mr. Dobbyn, isn't the -- whereas it's obvious what you are trying

14     to elicit from the witness, but isn't the problem that you're asking the

15     witness to look at a document and to express an opinion on the motive of

16     the maker of the document at the time that he made it?  Isn't that a bit

17     of a stretch?

18             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, this witness was an SJB chief who has

19     experience in investigating crimes himself.  I'm simply -- he also knows

20     the hierarchy within his own area.  And I'm simply asking whether he

21     could have issued -- Mr. Zupljanin could have issued this order earlier.

22     That's -- that's the basis of my question.

23             JUDGE HALL:  May I suggest that perhaps -- it would -- may be

24     useful for you to ask the witness what he would have done and then leave

25     the rest for argument.

Page 14069

 1             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you for that suggestion, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Krejic, if you had been in this position, would you have

 3     issued such an order earlier rather than waiting three weeks to do so?

 4        A.   Well, quite frankly, I would have resigned from the post of the

 5     chief of the security services centre in Banja Luka.

 6             MR. DOBBYN:  I won't pursue that any further.  But, Your Honours,

 7     I will seek admission of this document.  He has identified it as

 8     authentic.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1573, Your Honours.

11             MR. DOBBYN:  Next I would like to show a video, and this is

12     Exhibit P1563 [sic].  And I'm going to show a short clip from this.  Oh,

13     sorry.  My mistake.  It's P1359.  I will show a short clip starting at

14     7 minutes and 48 into this particular video.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "Voiceover:  The two men eventually were captured and questioned

17     by investigators from the Bosnian Serbian army.

18             "Regional Commander General Momir Talic:

19             "Momir Talic:  Our investigation showed that no soldiers

20     participated.

21             "Voiceover:  Having cleared themselves, General Talic's men

22     turned over both survivors to the police in Banja Luka.  But police

23     Chief Stojan Zupljanin told me ...

24             "Stojan Zupljanin:  We have no living witnesses who can confirm

25     or deny the incident.

Page 14070

 1             "Voiceover:  At least Zupljanin admits that the incident

 2     occurred.  He says it's under investigation, and he showed us files of

 3     evidence.  He even let us watch his ballistics expert examine bullets

 4     that were found at the scene.  He promises ...

 5             "Stojan Zupljanin:  The Serbian people will see to it that all

 6     the guilty parties are tried in a court of law."

 7             MR. DOBBYN:

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Krejic, at the end of that clip, we saw Mr. Zupljanin

 9     speaking at a press conference of some sort.  Did you see or know about

10     this press conference at the time?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Well, in this clip, Mr. Zupljanin is quoted as saying that there

13     were no living witnesses who could confirm or deny the incident, but

14     you've testified that you personally took a survivor to CSB Banja Luka,

15     and you've seen statements that have been taken by other survivors.  So,

16     Mr. Krejic, this statement is simply untrue, isn't it?

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  I object to that, first of all; and second, when

18     was the date of this video?

19             MR. DOBBYN:  The video was shown in November 1992.  I'll rephrase

20     the question in that case, if it will happen matters.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  When was it recorded, not when it was published.

22     That's the different thing.

23             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Krejic, unless this interview was recorded sometime in

25     August of 1992, isn't it true that Mr. Zupljanin's statement about not

Page 14071

 1     knowing of any living survivors was simply untrue?

 2        A.   I don't know when this interview was recorded, but I know that I

 3     had turned over that survivor and that Chief Zupljanin was aware the man

 4     was a survivor.

 5             MR. DOBBYN:  Now I would like to show a video which is

 6     Exhibit P1563, and I'd like to start at 1:28:10 into this video.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 9             "BB:  How are you?  We've been waiting here.  The show is running

10     half an hour late because of you.  It was scheduled for exactly 12.00,

11     and you're 40 minutes late.

12             "ZT:  We just came back.  We had some combat activities ...

13             "BB:  Where were you?

14             "ZT:  In the village of Donji Koricani -- actually Gornji.

15             "BB:  Really?

16             "ZT:  Yes, we fired from our positions.

17             "BB:  I see that you're kitted out with photographic equipment.

18     Is that -- what's your role here?

19             "ZT:  Well, I'm a war correspondent --

20             "BB:  War correspondent?

21             "ZT:  -- for this news agency --

22             "BB:  Do you have information for us?

23             "ZT:  -- Associated Press.  Yes, well we do.  What are you

24     interested in specifically?

25             "BB:  Well, we're not, the programme is not related to wartime

Page 14072

 1     events but to the events it Skender Vakuf.  These two colleagues of yours

 2     preceded you on the show, and there is quite a lot of interest in the

 3     show.  It's a bit warm for these floodlights, isn't it?"

 4             MR. DOBBYN:

 5        Q.   Mr. Krejic, the man that you see on the screen in front you with

 6     the blue uniform and the glasses, do you recognise this man?

 7        A.   Yes.  That's Brane Buhavac, chief of the scene-of-crime officers

 8     in the CSB Banja Luka.

 9        Q.   And you named him earlier as one of the people attending the

10     30 August meeting at CSB Banja Luka; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. DOBBYN:  Now, if we could now fast forward to 1 hour and

13     30 minutes and start from there.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

16             "BB:  What exactly happened?

17             "ZT:  These events began about four days ago, on Monday, when we

18     arrived.

19             "SO:  Not four, today is the fifth day.

20             "BB:  Really, he has no --

21             "ZT:  -- when we arrived in Skender --

22             "BB:  Let me help you a bit.  You can start either with

23     Mr. Pavicic or Mr. Oljaca.

24             "ZT:  You mean Jelenko?

25             "BB:  Let's start with Jelenko.

Page 14073

 1             "ZT:  This is what happened:  When we arrived in Skender four

 2     days ago, or more precisely on Monday, the 31st of August.  Some minor

 3     complications occurred, and Mr. Oljaca is to blame for all of that.

 4     Oljaca created a little incident.

 5             "BB:  Was there a fuck-up?

 6             "ZT:  Okay.  You could call it that, but I accuse Mr. Oljaca.

 7             "BB:  Okay.  Then?  What about Jelenko?

 8             "ZT:  You mean Jelenko's role?

 9             "ZT:  Well, the role of Jelenko's in all this --

10             "BB:  Are we talking about the real Jelenko or this new Jelenko?

11             "ZT:  Well, that is the problem.  No one knows which one."

12             MR. DOBBYN:

13        Q.   Now, the man that you see in front you now, do you recognise that

14     person, Mr. Krejic?

15        A.   Yes.  His last name is Oljaca.  I used to know his first name,

16     but I forgot it.  He's a scenes-of-crime officer in the forensic

17     scenes-of-crime service of the CSB Banja Luka.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. DOBBYN:  If we could now go to 1:38:07, which I believe is

20     the third clip.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

23             "8.30 or something we were sitting on the wall chatting when this

24     woman appeared, and since it was 200 metres away, this cameraman here

25     from the television, so-called Jelenko ..."

Page 14074

 1             MR. DOBBYN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Krejic, the man sitting in the van with the moustache and the

 3     glasses, do you recognise this man?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's an inspector from the department where I worked,

 5     Dusan Kos.

 6        Q.   And is he someone that you'd also named earlier as attending the

 7     30 August meeting at CSB Banja Luka?

 8        A.   Yes.  He was supposed to be some sort of coordinator for the

 9     tasks of the uniformed police, to put it that way.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now I've finished this video now.

11             I'd like to move on beyond the Vlasic Mountain killings and look

12     at another topic.

13             Now, you said earlier that when you transferred to CSB Banja Luka

14     on the 1st of September you were a class commander in the police officer

15     course.  Now, Mr. Krejic, from your time in CSB Banja Luka, were you

16     aware of the existence of the CSB Banja Luka Special Police Detachment

17     that was commanded by Ljuban Ecim?

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  Objection.  It's leading.  First of all, existence

19     of the unit and the command.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Please proceed, Mr. Dobbyn.

21             MR. DOBBYN:

22        Q.   Did you hear my question, Mr. Krejic?  Are you able to answer

23     that?

24        A.   I think perhaps there was a problem with the interpretation, so I

25     didn't understand anything.  Could you please repeat.

Page 14075

 1        Q.   Certainly.  I'm asking if you were aware of the existence of the

 2     CSB Banja Luka Special Police Detachment.

 3        A.   Yes.  That special police detachment existed, but I believe it

 4     ceased to exist right at the time when I moved to that job in Banja Luka

 5     or just before.

 6        Q.   Did any of the members of that unit participate in the police

 7     officers' course when you were a commander there?

 8        A.   I was a platoon commander there, not class commander, because one

 9     class contains several platoons.  And the answer is yes.  In every

10     platoon there were perhaps five or six members of that special police

11     detachment.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. DOBBYN:  Now I'd like to show Exhibit P1092.  And I'd like to

14     go to page 8 in both the English and the B/C/S.

15        Q.   Now, you see at number 16 on the page in front you the name

16     Predrag Bodiroza, and next to his name we see the note "SJB Banja Luka

17     training-course graduate."  Is this referring to the officer training

18     course of which you were a platoon commander?

19        A.   I think so.

20             MR. DOBBYN:  I'd like to now go to page 12 in the English and

21     page 11 until the B/C/S.

22        Q.   Now, at number 116, you will see the name Danko Kajkut, and next

23     to his name is says "candidate for the course."  Do you know if this is

24     also referring to the same officer training course of which you were a

25     platoon commander?

Page 14076

 1        A.   I think so.

 2             MR. DOBBYN:  Thank you.  And I have no more questions,

 3     Your Honours.  I see I've used my time.  Thank you very much.

 4             And thank you, Mr. Krejic.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Krejic.

 7        A.   Good morning [as interpreted].

 8        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic, and on behalf of Stojan Zupljanin's

 9     Defence I will be asking you some questions until the end of this day and

10     probably tomorrow as well.  Unlike you, I'm a fast speaker, so please,

11     for the record, just in case, leave a second or two after my questions

12     before you start answering so the interpreters can keep up and so we

13     don't overlap speaking the same language.  I will try to be mindful

14     myself.

15             I will pick up with the same line of questioning that the

16     Prosecutor finished off with.

17             When one of these men attends a course such as the course where

18     you were a platoon commander, it's a course that only prepares men to

19     become police officers or reserve police officers.  In other words, it

20     prepares people for police work?

21        A.   They would become active-duty policemen, not reserve policemen.

22     After completing this course, they would become active-duty police

23     officers.

24        Q.   So that is the purpose of the course.  Some of these men may even

25     have been reserve policemen, plus additional candidates.  All of them are

Page 14077

 1     prepared by this course, and following triage and a screen and a

 2     selection, they would be admitted into the active-duty police personnel?

 3        A.   Yes.  These courses exist even today, only the school is called

 4     differently.  It's called police academy or something like that.

 5        Q.   Mr. Krejic, you began your evidence today with a knowledge about

 6     this incident at Koricanske Stijene on the 21st of August, 1992, and you

 7     said approximately when you learned about it for the first time.  You

 8     said it was the 23rd of August.

 9             Now, from talking with Stojan Zupljanin, although you have

10     already spoken about this before the court in Sarajevo, did you have the

11     impression that he learnt about this incident on the same day as you did?

12        A.   Yes.  That was my impression.

13        Q.   And the first information about the number of people killed and

14     possible perpetrators was received by him from you; right?

15        A.   I think so, but I'm not sure.

16        Q.   If I understood well, it was a soldier who happened to go by and

17     saw it and went to report it to the duty operations centre, and then the

18     duty officer from that centre in the CSB Banja Luka sent it on to you

19     eventually.

20        A.   Yes, and I believe he probably wasn't aware of that report until

21     I called him up and told him that we had that report.

22        Q.   And when you went out to the scene, was there a military security

23     vehicle there?  Was anyone from the military security there or perhaps a

24     medical vehicle?  When you got there.

25        A.   No.  We were alone.  Mr. Veleusic and I were alone.

Page 14078

 1        Q.   When you saw that scene, that location, was it simple to just

 2     climb down to where the bodies were, or did you need ropes and special

 3     equipment and a certain skill to get down there?

 4        A.   The latter.  You needed full equipment.  And perhaps very young,

 5     fit men could have tried to venture an excursion down there without it,

 6     but for the most part you needed full equipment.

 7        Q.   Do you know that at the time when this first information arrived,

 8     stories were circulating already that people from Prijedor and

 9     Sanski Most both were involved?

10        A.   This is the first time I hear about Sanski Most.

11        Q.   When you got to that meeting at the CSB the next day, you said

12     Mr. Zupljanin opened the meeting that was very shortly interrupted by the

13     quarrel between the representatives of Prijedor and Knezevo.  Can you

14     tell us what Mr. Zupljanin said on that occasion?  Did he say openly at

15     that meeting, not only in your private encounter before the meeting, that

16     it was a horrible crime, that it was awful?

17        A.   After the discussion by Simo Drljaca who said that what had been

18     done was normal, that the victims were Muslims, and that we were Serbs,

19     and other horrible things he said, also proposing that the best way to

20     deal with it was to conceal it and keep it quiet like nothing had

21     happened, because according to him nothing very awful had happened,

22     chief -- Chief Zupljanin was stunned, and he said loud and clear:  Are

23     you aware that one murder, one crime, cannot be concealed, let alone a

24     crime on this massive scale?  Forget about it.  We have to be serious and

25     get our act together and deal with it in the proper way.  This is a

Page 14079

 1     crime.

 2        Q.   And then you said earlier he said at that point that there would

 3     be an investigation and the perpetrators would be punished.

 4        A.   Yes, because as I remember, Simo Drljaca again reacted with

 5     contempt towards what Stojan Zupljanin said.  And I must say I had never

 6     seen Stojan Zupljanin lose his calm.  This time he was really wagging his

 7     finger and saying that somebody will answer for that crime, that the

 8     perpetrators would be tried.

 9        Q.   The Prosecutor asked you a series of questions, seeking to find

10     out whether specific investigation measures were discussed at that

11     meeting.  I would say that it is highly unusual that a chief would, under

12     those circumstances, speak about the specifics of an investigation which

13     might concern the people present.  An investigation would be left to

14     professionals.

15        A.   Yes.  You could say that the discussion went along those lines.

16             MR. DOBBYN:  Your Honours, I just have a small intervention

17     regarding the formation of the question.  It sounds like it's not a

18     question at all but, rather, counsel giving evidence.  So I just ask my

19     learned colleague to perhaps be careful about that in the future, unless

20     there's some issue with interpretation there.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't know what this refers to.

22     I'll look at the transcript.  But I'll try to rephrase in any way and

23     make it perfectly clear.

24        Q.   Mr. Krejic, you identified in the video two people.  One of them

25     is Kos, Mr. Kos, who you said was in charge of the uniformed police.  He

Page 14080

 1     was to join this effort if policemen were needed to secure the site or do

 2     any other job that falls within the purview of the uniformed police.

 3     That would not be technical work.  The other Markovic was in charge of

 4     the forensic examination of the scene.  His job was different, whereas

 5     the uniformed police had a completely different job.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, you're right.

 7        Q.   And the way I understood the presence of these people,

 8     Mr. Buhavac was working on the scene, doing the forensic part of the work

 9     and the identification, all the forensic aspects of the investigation;

10     whereas Mr. Kos was supposed to provide all the conditions for that?

11        A.   I don't know that.  That's the way it was supposed to be.  But

12     how it really worked, I don't know.

13        Q.   That was precisely my question.  The very fact that this set of

14     people was present indicates that that is how the investigation was

15     supposed to run.  Mr. Buhavac was to deal with the technical aspects of

16     the job, and Mr. Kos to provide the logistics.

17        A.   I can only repeat that's the way it was supposed to be.  But how

18     it actually happened, I don't know, because I moved to a new job in

19     Banja Luka already on the 1st of September.

20        Q.   Mr. Krejic, the Prosecutor also asked you, when you were talking

21     about that second meeting after which all the attendees went to the

22     scene, he asked you whether Zupljanin was there the second time.  You

23     said no.  I'd like to ask you about this period between the

24     23rd of August and the second meeting.  Since you were chief of the --

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, if you're about to move on to a new

Page 14081

 1     area, perhaps we should take the adjournment at this time.  It's 7.00.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC:  I agree, Your Honour.  It's a convenient time.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  The -- I would remind the witness that inasmuch as

 4     he has been sworn and is giving evidence, you cannot communicate with

 5     counsel from other side until you're released.  And in such conversations

 6     you may have with persons outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss

 7     your testimony.

 8             So we take the adjournment, to resume in this courtroom at 2.15

 9     tomorrow afternoon.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day

13                           of September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.