Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14384

 1                           Wednesday, 8 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             Good morning, everybody in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning everyone.

11             May we have the appearances, please.

12             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

13     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

15     Appearing for Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic and

16     Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.

17             MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... good morning,

18     Your Honours.  For Zupljanin Defence, Igor Pantelic and Miroslav Cuskic.

19     Thank you.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             And if there is nothing that we need give our attention to, could

22     the shutters be lowered so that the witness may take the stand -- may be

23     escorted to the stand.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, while the witness is coming in, can I

25     just raise with you the question asked by Judge Harhoff yesterday about a

Page 14385

 1     plan showing the River Vrbas and the cliffs -- sorry.

 2             In fact, the River Vrbas doesn't run around the cliff area.  I

 3     think there was a slight confusion.  Your Honour may be thinking that

 4     there were two incidents.  One is the killings at Koricanske Stijene; and

 5     the other is the bodies that were floated into the River Vrbas which came

 6     from the Manjaca.  So that it's not -- we've just been checking.

 7             We've actually got a plan to show the cliffs, an ordinance survey

 8     one and some Google photographs.  But we were looking for the River Vrbas

 9     and suddenly realized, of course, that it didn't run through that bit of

10     the terrain.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.  My interests, of course,

12     was to discover whether the place where the bodies were found was within

13     the area of responsibility of the 122nd Light Brigade so as to ensure

14     that it would come under the -- the jurisdiction of -- of the brigade.

15             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  The -- Your Honour, we'll show that later on

16     when I come to the incident.  But, yes, I think Your Honours will hear

17     that the bodies were found within the area because they're found at the

18     bottom of the cliff.  The Vrbas bodies are different.  They're from the

19     Manjaca killings.  And they floated into Banja Luka.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Well, I take it, then, that you will explore with

21     the witness, whether the place where the bodies were found in the Vrbas

22     River was within or without -- outside the area of responsibility.

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I will.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 14386

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, could we go into private session just

 2     for a moment while I just explain -- say something to the witness.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14387











11 Page 14387 redacted. Private session.















Page 14388

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Yeah.

 4        Q.   I want to ask you about another aspect about which this

 5     Trial Chamber has heard, namely, that of town commands.

 6             Can you tell the Court, please, what your understanding was of

 7     what a town command is, or was.

 8        A.   Town command is a concept dating back to the times of the

 9     Yugoslav People's Army, but it was in those times called garrison

10     command.  Sometimes the term "garrison command" was used, and in other

11     places, like in Slavonia, where I was, the term "town command" was used.

12             However, with the outbreak of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13     the term "town command" was unknown to me because it was not used.  In

14     Banja Luka, there was a garrison command, but it dealt with

15     military/civilian affairs.  Perhaps there was a garrison command in some

16     other towns where JNA units were formally stationed, such as Doboj,

17     Bijeljina.  I don't know whether they were transformed with the outbreak

18     of the conflict into town commands or they remained garrison commands.

19     In Banja Luka, there was a garrison command operating.

20        Q.   Yes.  Sir, can -- leaving aside the terminology for a moment,

21     whether it's a town command or a garrison command, what was a garrison

22     command?

23        A.   A garrison command was a military territorial organ that dealt

24     with residential issues, organising festivities, ceremonies, some

25     functions of the garrison command -- contact with civilian authorities.

Page 14389

 1     The spectre of issues that the garrison command dealt with was rather

 2     broad.

 3        Q.   All right.  So that's -- you say -- you've just said that it

 4     was -- a town command was unknown to you.

 5             Can we have a look, please, on the screen at the document --

 6     because you talked about this in your statement which you made only a

 7     month or so ago -- sorry, where's my ...

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm so sorry, I've just remembered

 9     I've lost my list.

10        Q.   Yes, could you have a look, please, at document 10501.

11             MS. KORNER:  Tab 13.

12        Q.   Now, this is a document dated the 25th of November, 1991, from

13     the Civilian Defence Sector.  And it's signed by Dr. Pujic.

14             MS. KORNER:  And if we go, please, to the second page --

15        Q.   Does that -- is that headed: Tasks of the organs for civilian

16     affairs in the JNA commands and the town commands.  And:  We hereby

17     attach the tasks for the organs for civilian affairs in the commands of

18     JNA units and town commands.

19             Now, are you sure that you hadn't heard about this before the

20     outbreak of hostilities?

21        A.   I never saw this document before, nor have I ever heard of it.

22             During proofing, it was shown to me, and I then gave my answer,

23     which I can repeat.  Namely, this document, referring to crisis areas,

24     was written at the time when, in the former Socialist Federal Republic of

25     Yugoslavia, two republics no longer formed part of it.  I do not know

Page 14390

 1     what crisis areas are referred to when these two former republics had

 2     already been internationally recognised.

 3             I think this document is more of wishful thinking than anything

 4     that could be applicable in practice.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... first of all, sir, you

 6     weren't shown this -- or you were, as well, but you had a look at this

 7     document when you made your statement.  Do you recollect the contents of

 8     your statement that you made, which you signed in August this year?

 9        A.   Yes, of course, I remember my statement.

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... and do you remember you were

11     asked specifically about town commands and shown that document then.

12             Sir?  Did you hear the question?

13        A.   That -- this document was not shown to me.  Another document was

14     shown to me.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... all right.

16        A.   With a stamp of the 19th Partisan Brigade, and it referred to

17     Gornji Vakuf, I think.  The investigator asked me then whether it was

18     possible for zones of responsibility of units to overlap, because that

19     document about the town command concerned Gornji Vakuf, whereas my

20     command was in Skender Vakuf.  And I explained that it was an essential

21     difference.  Donji Vakuf, Gornji Vakuf, and Skender Vakuf --

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

23        A.   Are three different things.  I think this is a mistake in

24     terminology.

25        Q.   All right.  I think it may help you to refresh your memory from

Page 14391

 1     your statement.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Could we have up on the screen, please, 9083.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to the

 4     statement being shown to the witness.  He should be simply asked whatever

 5     questions Ms. Korner has.

 6             MS. KORNER:  He is clearly totally in error about this, if

 7     Your Honours have a look at the statement, and I would invite

 8     Your Honours to allow him to refresh his memory from his statement.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  This is merely for purposes of refreshing his

11     memory, I take it.  Yes.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, you'll see he's gone right -- it's --

13     given the -- the number of documents he went through, which was numerous,

14     as Your Honours will see, we suggest this is purely an error of

15     recollection on his behalf.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17             MS. KORNER:  So it would help, I think, if he can refresh his

18     memory.

19             JUDGE HALL:  So he can look at the document and then you may ask

20     your question.

21             MS. KORNER:  Exactly.  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

22             We need the fourth page in both English and B/C/S.

23        Q.   Sir, can I invite you, please, to just read the paragraphs 15,

24     16, and 17.  I see you've got a copy with as well of that statement just

25     to remind yourself.

Page 14392

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can this not go out on the screen,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   And do you recognise, there, your signature at the bottom and the

 4     date, the 6th of August?

 5        A.   Yes.  I have the original of my statement in my hands now, and

 6     it's the same as what I see on the screen.  That's precisely my

 7     statement, and I stand by it.

 8        Q.   All right.  So -- you stand by your statement, sir, that you made

 9     about town commands, that the JNA combat regulations covered the issue,

10     that they were limited to the defence of large towns --

11             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, yesterday when we were engaged in a

12     similar exercise, because it was not a matter in controversy, I was

13     minded to observe that I trust that none of the more junior attorneys in

14     the Office of the Prosecutor was thinking that in the case of a document

15     which is, in fact, not being admitted into evidence, a question may be

16     phrased in such a manner that the contents are, at the end of the day,

17     read into the record.

18             I would make that observation now and point out that inasmuch as

19     this is a matter in controversy, you should phrase your question in such

20     a way that you are not putting into the record, reading into the record,

21     something which is not admissible at this point.

22             MS. KORNER:  But, Your Honours, he's just said "I stand by my

23     statement."  I can, of course, ask a series of questions, but isn't it

24     simpler -- there's no other way.  I'm not asking for it to be exhibited

25     because it contains other matters, but the only way to get the actual

Page 14393

 1     matters that he stands by into the record are to put them to him.  That's

 2     the difficulty.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  I appreciate that it is not without difficulty.

 4     But, nevertheless, you should phrase the question in such a way to avoid

 5     this problem that I've identified.  Because the vices, I would have

 6     thought obvious.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, certainly.

 8        Q.   All right, sir.  Can we just deal with this, this way.

 9             You told us a minute ago you had not heard of town commands.  Was

10     that an error on your part, now that you see the statement that you made?

11        A.   Commands of town defences is a term that existed back in

12     peacetime in the former Yugoslavia.  Commands of town defence.  In some

13     places, they were called garrison commands; and in other places, they

14     were called town defence commands.  And when I was giving this statement,

15     I also spoke about the defence of towns against an aggression already

16     taking place, when a town is being included into the defence system of a

17     unit, town defence as a combat, tactical act.

18             There could be a confusion between two types of defence.  In

19     peacetime there was also a town defence command, but it was in that time

20     not a combat tactical operation.  My answer here is directed at defence

21     in situations when a town was included into a unit's defence system.

22             In any case, I did give this statement, and I stand by it.

23        Q.   All right.  In a time where there was a conflict going on, was

24     the town command under the control of the civilian authorities or the

25     military authorities?

Page 14394

 1        A.   Well, a town command was under the jurisdiction of military

 2     authorities.  And that goes for garrison commands as well.

 3             The garrison command of Banja Luka was a military organ, and it

 4     was under the jurisdiction of military authorities.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... please leave garrison

 6     commands, which appears to be different, as we've looked at the document,

 7     and deal with town commands.

 8             You've just said that they were under the jurisdiction of

 9     military authorities.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber, therefore,

10     how you came to tell the investigator that:

11             "Town commands were under the control of civilian authorities and

12     only in rare cases in which a town lacked a functioning civilian

13     authority did the military take control over a town command."

14        A.   Well, perhaps there was a misunderstanding of terms.  I said that

15     I knew only about two defence commands in the town of Brod and in the

16     town of Derventa, where organs of the command had been installed to

17     defend those towns, pending the functioning of civilian authorities.  As

18     for the other towns, I don't know.

19             In my zone of operations of the 122nd Brigade, there were no town

20     defence commands, not in a single town located in the zone.

21        Q.   Sir, I'm sorry, can I just stick, for a moment, to the statement.

22             You actually were given a copy of the statement in your own

23     language, weren't you, before you signed it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And presumably, in the position that you held when you were

Page 14395

 1     working, you read through any document before you signed it to make sure

 2     it was accurate?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Well, we've just gone through paragraph -- the beginning of

 5     paragraph 16 of that statement, and you say now that's total wrong.  Can

 6     you just explain to the Trial Chamber how you came to sign a statement

 7     that contained matters that you say now are wrong?

 8        A.   I'm only trying to clarify the notion of town defence, in terms

 9     of combat operations, in which a town, during combat operations, is

10     included in the defence system of a unit.  I'm also trying to

11     differentiate between this document signed by General Pujic as an

12     instruction for establishing organs for civilian affairs.  That's the

13     essence of it.

14             I think that there was just a misunderstanding.  I'm constantly

15     talking about including a town into the defence systems whilst defence

16     operations are being conducted in an assigned area.

17        Q.   Can we just look, please, at the next sentence that you signed

18     after you'd explained that only in rare cases did the military take

19     control over a town command.

20             "In such cases, the military unit in control of the town command

21     would only perform civilian duties aimed at restoring civilian

22     infrastructure and re-establishing civilian authorities as soon as

23     possible."

24             Is that correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  There is no dispute about that.

Page 14396

 1        Q.   If a town command had been established, and you tell us you

 2     personally had no such dealings, did the police come under the control -

 3     civilian police - come under the control of the military?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   And why was that?

 6        A.   Because the civilian police, as I already said, was subordinated

 7     within the control and command system under its superior organs and not

 8     to the army.

 9        Q.   If there was a functioning Crisis Staff, as we will see shortly

10     in respect of Kotor Varos, was there any necessity for a town command to

11     be established?

12        A.   No, there wasn't.

13        Q.   If a town command had been established somewhere and the military

14     had taken charge because there was no functioning civilian authority,

15     would the military continue to be in charge once civilian authority was

16     re-established?

17        A.   I know only about two towns in which this occurred as -- but, as

18     soon as the civilian authorities were established, they assumed their

19     duties and continued to work.  This is what I said in my statement as

20     well, and those were the towns of Derventa and Brod.  I don't know about

21     other towns.  But as for the towns in the area of responsibility of the

22     unit under my command, there were no military commands of towns and

23     things like that.

24        Q.   Yes.  Well, then, I think that's as far as I need take it.  Thank

25     you, sir.

Page 14397

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can we now go into private session for

 2     the next few series of questions.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14398











11 Pages 14398-14402 redacted. Private session.















Page 14403

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, this is a document which is actually headed:  "The

 7     1st Krajina Corps," and it's the 21st of May of 1992.  And it talks about

 8     a general mobilisation of the Serbian Republic of BH Army.  And he

 9     orders -- or the decision of the 20th of May has initiated a general

10     mobilisation.  And then General Talic says at the bottom:

11             "I hereby order ..."

12             And then:

13             "1.  Immediately establish direct contact with the municipal and

14     military and territorial organs on the ground, offering expert and

15     materiel support for the mobilisation process."

16             Was that something, sir, that you followed, that order?

17        A.   In this order, one should distinguish between orders issued by a

18     commander to his subordinate commanders, and that applies to the corps

19     command as well.

20             In order words, when he says "establish contacts with municipal

21     and military and territorial organs on the ground and offer expert and

22     materiel support for the mobilisation process," this task referred to the

23     organ for personnel and mobilisation recruitment of a corps.

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14404

 1             I submitted my request for providing troops through regular or

 2     interim combat reports, stating the exact number of men that I needed.

 3     And I resolved all these issues through the corps command.

 4             There is an organ for personnel and mobilisation issues within a

 5     corps command, which acted upon my request by granting it fully or

 6     partially or not at all.  They made their own requests; send it to the

 7     ministry; and then the ministry, within their responsibilities, would

 8     pass on these decisions to the lower organs at the level of municipality.

 9     That was the regular procedure.  It was not up to me to go directly to

10     the municipality and ask for my unit to be manned.

11        Q.   All right.  Did -- did you have any say, then, in the recruitment

12     process that took place?  Very simple:  Yes or no?

13        A.   No.

14             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, can I -- I think line -- yes,

15     page 19, line 24, just needs to be redacted.

16             JUDGE HALL:  We're in the process of dealing with that.

17             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19        Q.   Sir, we've just looked at the minutes of the National Defence

20     Council for Kotor Varos.  Kotor Varos was then, was it not, a

21     municipality with mixed ethnic groups who were in charge of civilian

22     affairs?

23             Sir?

24        A.   As far as I know, and I submitted those papers to you as well,

25     Kotor Varos had a mix of population in which all the ethnic groups were

Page 14405

 1     approximately equally represented.  There were 29 per cent Croats;

 2     31.5 per cent Serbs; and 30 per cent Bosniaks, or Muslims, as they were

 3     known then.  It's official data from the Institute for Statistics.  And

 4     there was also equal representation of the ethnic communities in the

 5     municipal authorities, I think.  I don't have official statistics for

 6     that.

 7        Q.   Sir, all that I'm saying is this couldn't be in any way described

 8     as a -- a municipality in which the Serbs had a majority, could it?

 9        A.   As for the civilian authorities, I don't know.  I know that at

10     the time of that meeting, the 7th of April, the president of the

11     municipality was Ante Mandic, a Croat.

12        Q.   Sir, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but as I've already explained,

13     we have got limited time.  Sir, all I'm saying is that as far as you were

14     concerned it could not be described as a municipality where the Serbs had

15     a absolute majority; they were not the biggest section of the population?

16        A.   Statistics say so.  I don't need to say anything.  The Serbs were

17     38.1 per cent.  I did not write that percentage.  That's from the

18     Institute of Statistics.

19        Q.   As you said, sir, it rather speaks for itself?

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, this is an adjudicated fact, so --

21             MS. KORNER:  Yes -- [microphone not activated] -- I'm trying to

22     get to the witness's own state of mind about it, as opposed to what the

23     actual statistics are.

24        Q.   Sir, your aware, aren't you, however, that on 11th of June there

25     was a takeover in Kotor Varos by the Serbs?  And can you just please

Page 14406

 1     answer that question yes or no.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, two days before that takeover, did you attend a meeting at

 4     the CSB in Banja Luka, on the 9th of June?

 5        A.   Whether it was the 8th or the 9th, I really can't be sure, but I

 6     attended a meeting in Banja Luka on the orders of General Talic, who

 7     informed me that at the Security Services Centre there would be a meeting

 8     attended by the representatives of Kotor Varos municipality and the

 9     chief [as interpreted] with his associates, that I should go to that

10     meeting, see what it was about, and report back, as I did, at the

11     municipality of Kotor Varos.

12             I don't remember the date when it happened, but it could be --

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... first, even if you can't

14     remember the date, was it shortly before the takeover of Kotor Varos?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You said that you were ordered to go to this meeting which was

17     attended by the representatives of Kotor Varos municipality and the chief

18     with his associates.

19             Who do you mean by "the chief"?

20        A.   I didn't say "chief."  I said "organs."  From Kotor Varos, there

21     was Nedeljko Djekanovic, Momcilo Komljenovic; those two men represented

22     Kotor Varos.

23        Q.   Yes, sorry, I think there's a misunderstanding.  What you

24     actually said, as recorded or translated, was that "... there would be a

25     meeting attended by the represents [sic] of Kotor Varos

Page 14407

 1     municipality" comma "and the chief with his associates ..."

 2             Now, as it was at the CSB in Banja Luka, who was there from the

 3     CSB?

 4        A.   From the CSB, there was Mr. Zupljanin, Stojan Zupljanin, and

 5     whether there was anyone else coming and going from that meeting, I

 6     believe at some stages other people were there too.  But Stojan Zupljanin

 7     was there for sure.

 8        Q.   Had you met Stojan Zupljanin before that meeting, or was that the

 9     first time?

10        A.   I had informal encounters before, but this was our first official

11     meeting together.  But we had met before, unofficially.

12        Q.   And when you say you met unofficially, where had you met

13     unofficially?

14        A.   Well, I probably ran into him in town.  Whether he had visited

15     the corps command or not, I can't remember.  But we did meet before.

16     That was, however, the first official meeting.

17        Q.   You say that he had visited -- whether he had visited the corps

18     command or not, I can't remember.  Were you aware that he was in the

19     habit of visiting the corps command?

20        A.   I can't tell that you.  I don't know.  Because when I met him,

21     that was by chance, in passing.  Whether he came to the corps command, I

22     don't know.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... well, you say you met him by

24     chance, in passing.  At some stage somebody must have introduced you to

25     him or the other way around; how did that happen, and where did that

Page 14408

 1     happen?

 2        A.   Well, he introduced himself the first time he met me.  I had not

 3     met him before I returned from service in Slavonia, where I had been

 4     stationed before.  Until that time, I did not know Stojan Zupljanin or

 5     anyone else there.

 6        Q.   Well, let's go back to the meeting, please, and let's look at

 7     some of the other people who you say were there.  Mr. Djekanovic, you

 8     say, was there from Kotor Varos.  Mr. Komljenovic.  What about the chief

 9     of police, Mr. Tepic?  Was he there?

10        A.   There was a number of people, quite a few people there.  I don't

11     have the list here, but there were 15, perhaps even 20 people there.

12     There was the chief of the secretariat.  In fact, commander of the

13     TO staff, Mane Tepic, if I remember correctly.  Whether Savo Tepic was

14     there as well, I'm not sure, but possibly.  There was commander of the

15     police station whom I didn't know.

16        Q.   Did you know Ljuban Ecim?

17        A.   I met Ljuban Ecim by chance in Kotor Varos.  I didn't know him

18     before that.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I appreciate that you met

20     him in Kotor Varos.  But -- did -- was he at that meeting?

21        A.   No.  At that meeting, the 7th of April, he wasn't there.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... not the 7th of April.  The

23     8th or 9th of June, this meeting at the CSB.

24        A.   He may have been for a shorter or longer while, but while I was

25     speaking, I don't remember him being present.

Page 14409

 1             There were those two men from Kotor Varos Djekanovic and

 2     Komljenovic.  There was Stojan Zupljanin, as the chief --

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you've already mentioned,

 4     but I'm just asking about certain people.  What about Zdravko Samardzija?

 5        A.   I don't remember he was there.

 6        Q.   Or Slobodan Dubocanin?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I don't think so.  I don't know because I didn't

 8     know these people at all.  I believe at the beginning of the meeting none

 9     of those people were there.

10        Q.   Yes.  I appreciate you may not have known them then.  But later,

11     the three men that I've just mentioned, Ecim, Samardzija, and Dubocanin,

12     you did know, didn't you?

13        A.   I got to know them only in Kotor Varos, not earlier.

14        Q.   You say -- you said on a number of occasions that there was,

15     effectively, certain people there at the beginning of the meeting and

16     certain people who came later.  Was Stojan Zupljanin there from the

17     beginning of the meeting?

18        A.   Yes.  While I was there, he was present.  I don't know if he

19     stayed till the end, because after I finished my contribution, I left.  I

20     don't know if he stayed on.

21        Q.   You told us you were ordered to go to the meeting by

22     General Talic.  Did he explain to you what the meeting was about and why

23     you should attend?

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14410

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3        Q.   And what was discussed at the meeting?

 4        A.   I don't have a single document from that meeting anymore.  I

 5     don't even have my own notebook.  But the discussion was about the

 6     deteriorated military/political situation in the municipality.  I believe

 7     Nedeljko Djekanovic spoke about that.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, go on, sir.

 9        A.   He mentioned, I remember, that inter-ethnic tensions are rising;

10     that people were arming themselves; that there were Bosniaks and Croats

11     going about town wearing uniforms of the Muslim and the Croat army, and

12     that was disturbing for the citizens; that the road

13     Banja Luka-Kotor Varos had already been cut off at a place called

14     Vrbanjci by Bosniak forces.  I think, at that time, the change in

15     authorities had not yet taken place because the set of people in power

16     then had been defeated at the elections but they were reluctant to

17     relinquish power.  I think there was some discussion about that.  And

18     that everything was coming close to a culmination and that inter-ethnic

19     conflict was quite possible.

20             There were reports that both Muslims and Croats - able-bodied men

21     of military age, I mean - who were arming themselves, procuring weapons

22     in various ways from Croatia and from Herceg-Bosna.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... stop, please, sir.

24             Did anybody mention the Serbs arming themselves?

25        A.   When it was said that everybody was arming themselves, that must

Page 14411

 1     have meant Serbs too, because it's very difficult to control such popular

 2     arming because it seems to follow its own course.  There were loads of

 3     weapons among the civilian population.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, you said that at that time the change in authorities

 5     had not yet taken place.

 6             Do you mean by that the takeover that took place, two days later,

 7     or three days later, whatever it may have been?

 8        A.   Precisely.  I don't know who won in Kotor Varos, really.

 9        Q.   Sorry.  Sorry, sir.  You've told us you remember the takeover of

10     Kotor Varos on the 11th of June.  You've told this meeting was a few days

11     before that.  You've just said:  "I think at that time the change in

12     authorities" -- that is to say, at the meeting "had not yet taken place."

13             Do you mean, by that, the takeover of power which happened three

14     days later?

15        A.   That's precisely what I meant.  I -- I have to say again I don't

16     know who won at the elections, and nor was I interested which party got

17     the most votes, won the second or the third.  But there was a change in

18     government on the 11th of June when Nedeljko Djekanovic replaced

19     Ante Mandic as president of the municipality.  Now, who won, I really

20     don't know; whether one of them was right and the other was wrong and

21     which one, I don't know.  I didn't go into that.

22        Q.   I'm sorry, sir, we're not talking about a democratic election,

23     are we, here; we're talking about a takeover of power done forcibly.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness is being

25     lead as to how the government changed.  He already said how the

Page 14412

 1     government changed.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Forgive me, Mr. Cvijetic, but I don't think he did.

 3        Q.   All right.  Just explain to us, sir, how was the government

 4     changed on the 11th of June?

 5        A.   All I can tell you is that the duties of the president of the

 6     municipality were taken over by Nedeljko Djekanovic instead of

 7     Ante Mandic.  And how and for what reason, Nedeljko Djekanovic is the

 8     best placed to say.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I want to know your own

10     knowledge of that.  What was the decision made at the end of this meeting

11     that took place in CSB -- in the CSB?

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15             I don't know the details of that meeting because it's outside my

16     field of competence.

17        Q.   Sir, again, this is something you discussed in your interview in

18     March of this year.  Would it help you to refresh your memory from that

19     interview, which I know you didn't have an opportunity to listen to

20     before you testified?

21             MR. PANTELIC:  Your Honours, where we are going with this

22     refreshing process?  Where -- where it will end?  It seems that we are

23     going in wrong direction, Your Honours, if we shall have this refreshing

24     process every time, every minute.  Is it a viva voce testimony or what?

25             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway, we will take the break now and resume in

Page 14413

 1     20 minutes.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Notwithstanding Mr. Pantelic's intervention, I

 9     should have, in respect of the application the -- or suggestion put by

10     Ms. Korner, permitted the witness to refresh his memory during the break.

11     Perhaps he can take a minute or two now to do that before you rephrase

12     your question, Mr. -- before you re-put your question, Ms. Korner.

13             MS. KORNER:  Yes, of course, I suddenly remember that although

14     his statement had been translated, his interview hasn't.  So he can't

15     read his interview, so he'd have to listen to it.  Or else I'd have to

16     read it to him.  But I think I may be able to get at what I need another

17     way, Your Honours, rather than trying it that way.

18             JUDGE HALL:  As you wish.

19             MS. KORNER:

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14414

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12        Q.   All right.  I think I'm going to have to remind you, then, sir.

13     This is at page 20 of the interview.  But can I just remind you of what

14     you said and see if that refreshes your memory.

15             "The decision was made that within two days an operation led by

16     the Banja Luka CSB police, more specifically by a detachment that they

17     would establish as reinforcements for the Kotor Varos police.  The idea

18     was disarm paramilitary formations in town, preventing inter-ethnic

19     clashes, arrests within the limits of the law of the criminals.  There

20     was a whole series of tasks that Zupljanin listed out."

21             Now, does that refresh your memory, sir, about what you told us;

22     and is that right?

23        A.   Well, this is not my statement, probably.  But there was mention

24     of the need for reinforcing the police station in Kotor Varos.

25             As for the details, how that would be done, I don't know about

Page 14415

 1     that, nor can I remember, because that was 19 years ago.  I didn't take

 2     any notes relating to this particular portion of the discussion.

 3     Therefore, I don't know.

 4        Q.   I'm sorry, sir.  When you say "that's not my statement" - and

 5     you'll have an opportunity, if necessary, to listen to it over the

 6     break - that's what you told us in March of this year.  Now, are you

 7     saying you no longer recollect this part of the discussion, or are you

 8     asserting that you never told us that?

 9        A.   Well, I assert that I did attend the meeting.  There's no doubt

10     about that, and I remember what I said.

11             As for other things that I said, I can't recollect, concerning

12     this particular meeting.

13        Q.   Well, let's try and get a final answer from you, sir.

14             Was there a discussion, when you were present, with

15     Stojan Zupljanin saying that there would be an operation led by the

16     Banja Luka CSB police, more specifically by a detachment that they would

17     establish as reinforcements for the Kotor Varos police, with a list of

18     tasks that they were to carry out?

19        A.   Whether this was said by Stojan Zupljanin or whether he used the

20     word "operation," I don't remember.

21             There was discussion about the necessity of providing assistance

22     to the police in Kotor Varos in carrying out their regular duties;

23     however, how that was done was out of the scope of my competence, and I

24     didn't go into that.  That was a matter for the police.

25        Q.   I perfectly understand it was outside your competence, sir.  All

Page 14416

 1     I'm asking is that -- whether you now remember that you heard that being

 2     said by Stojan Zupljanin, that the police in Kotor Varos would be

 3     reinforced by a special police unit that would come from the Banja Luka

 4     CSB.  Leave aside whether that was of any interest to you or not.

 5        A.   There was mention of reinforcing the police force in Kotor Varos.

 6     However, in what way, with which forces, and when, I didn't hear that.

 7     It was said that the Kotor Varos police needed assistance in carrying out

 8     their regular tasks.

 9        Q.   And did anybody else at that meeting, other than

10     Stojan Zupljanin, have the authority or the manpower to assist the

11     Kotor Varos police?

12        A.   I don't know that.  That was up to the police, or milicija.  And

13     it was up to Stojan Zupljanin to take care of the organisation at the

14     Banja Luka CSB.  And I don't know anything about that.

15        Q.   Later on, did you become aware, in Kotor Varos, of a detachment

16     of special police?

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             As for the contents of this meeting, I informed my superior,

21     General Talic, because he was the one who ordered me to attend that

22     meeting; that was the proper thing to do.

23             On the 11th of June, there was change of power.  And on that day,

24     I noticed, only towards the evening when I was passing through

25     Kotor Varos, I noticed men in special uniforms carrying out certain

Page 14417

 1     police tasks in the town of Kotor Varos.  So that was on the

 2     11th of June.

 3             On that same date, the forming of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade

 4     of Kotor Varos began, pursuant to an order that came probably from the

 5     corps command.  I don't see who else could have issued such an order.

 6     And this is what I know, and that is to say that there was presence on

 7     that day of members in special uniforms in the town of Kotor Varos.

 8        Q.   And what were these men in special uniforms doing?

 9        A.   Well, what they exactly did, I don't know.  But I did see them on

10     the streets.  I saw that they walked around in patrols.  But what else

11     they did, I don't know.

12        Q.   I'll come on to what you knew later about their activities in a

13     moment.

14             MS. KORNER:  But can I ask that we go into private session just

15     for the next question and answer.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14418











11 Pages 14418-14423 redacted. Private session.















Page 14424

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  And we're back in open session, Your Honours.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   Sir, all I want to ask you about this --

18             JUDGE HALL:  Perhaps the document shouldn't be displayed on the

19     screen.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   I want to ask you about two matters, sir, in this meeting.

24             Mr. Tepic informed the Crisis Staff that -- and you've told us

25     Mr. Tepic was the TO commander, was he not?

Page 14425

 1        A.   Mr. Mane Tepic, at the time, was already the commander of

 2     Kotor Varos Light Brigade formed on the 11th.  Before that, he was the

 3     commander the Kotor Varos TO staff.

 4             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back into private session, please.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

24             MS. KORNER:

25        Q.   It says there that a village - I think there's a misspelling

Page 14426

 1     there; it should be Rujevica - had been cleaned out.

 2             What did you understand by that?  What did "cleaning out" mean?

 3        A.   I don't know what Mr. Tepic meant when he said that Rujika was

 4     cleaned out, and Rujika encompassed lot.  I won't go into that at the

 5     moment.  But I think he was talking about Rujevica hill.  It's a small

 6     hill at the exit point of Kotor Varos.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8        A.   However, what he meant - I mean, Mr. Tepic - but it being cleaned

 9     out, whether rubbish was cleaned out, litter, I don't know.

10        Q.   Please, sir, you're not trying to suggest that the commander of

11     the Kotor Varos Light Brigade at the Kotor Varos Crisis Staff meeting was

12     talking about clearing litter?

13        A.   I didn't mean litter in the ordinary sense.  I thought some

14     wrecked vehicles, perhaps, were removed or something.  But I really don't

15     know what Mr. Tepic had in mind.

16             Mr. Tepic had a university degree in All People's Defence and

17     social self-protection from Sarajevo university and was well-versed in

18     using terminology.

19        Q.   Did you understand it had anything to do with removing non-Serbs

20     from the area?

21        A.   From what I know, there are no Serbs or Croats or Muslims on that

22     hill.  It's a hill.  It wasn't populated.  It's just an elevation.

23        Q.   It doesn't actually say Rovica.  It talks about Rujika.

24        A.   I repeat:  I don't know what Rujika is or what it could be.  I

25     know only about Rujevica.  I don't know what Mr. Tepic said when he

Page 14427

 1     said -- if he said Rujika.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you also attended, did you

 3     not, a meeting the following day, the 20th of June.  And can we just

 4     look, quickly, just to identify you as being present, on the

 5     26th [sic] -- at document 10106.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Again, not to go on the screen, please.

 7        Q.   That states, under item 1, that you were giving them a briefing,

 8     does it not?

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15        Q.   Yes.

16             MS. KORNER:  Can we look, then, please, at the meeting on the

17     22nd of June, which is 10507.

18        Q.   Again, you were there.  And it's stated at -- that -- at the

19     bottom of item 1:

20             "A solution to the problems," which are described above, "had to

21     be found and that better coordination had to be established urgently

22     between the army, the special police units, and our police."

23             What was the problem between - because you told us that the whole

24     idea was that there should be this cooperation - what was the problem

25     between the cooperation, or coordination?

Page 14428

 1        A.   Well, from time to time, certain problems cropped up.

 2        Q.   Give us an example, please.

 3        A.   But they were not so frequent, and they were not problems between

 4     the army and the special police.  They were not grave, but they needed to

 5     be dealt with.

 6             For instance:  Through the check-point controlled by my unit,

 7     somebody from that special police would pass without stopping.  The

 8     problem was that the HVO forces became more massively engaged coming from

 9     Central Bosnia, and it was quite possible that HVO could also come to --

10     to reach that check-point.  If somebody doesn't stop, the military police

11     don't know whether it was a member of the special police or perhaps a

12     member of the HVO.  So these minor problems and other problems I warned

13     other people about so that we shouldn't clash in -- in our work.

14        Q.   Yes.  The -- the interpretation for the -- your -- the beginning

15     of your answer was that "they were not problems between the army and the

16     special police."  But from what you've just said, you're describing

17     problems that existed between the army and the special police; is that

18     right?

19        A.   Well, that was one case, when a member of the special police came

20     by in his car, but we resolved that then and it didn't happen anymore.

21             It was not -- not just about the special police but anyone in

22     uniform passing through the check-point controlled by the military

23     police.

24        Q.   What about the actions which the special police were taking in

25     Kotor Varos, in respect of dealing with the non-Serbs?  Was that ever a

Page 14429

 1     problem, as far as the army was concerned?

 2        A.   Well, all the actions carried out by the police, special or

 3     otherwise, were not a problem to the army because the army was doing its

 4     job, and the police was carrying on their work, within their

 5     competencies.  And if any problem occurred, that problem was to be

 6     resolved by the police or in contacts between the police and the civilian

 7     authorities.  If the police had a problem, that was within their purview.

 8     They were responsible for their own force and their own actions, just

 9     like army units are responsible to their commander for their actions.

10        Q.   You see, originally, you told us that when you had said at the

11     meeting of the National Defence Council on the 7th of April that you

12     would protect all nationalities, you meant that.  Did it ever occur to

13     you that non-Serbs in the Kotor Varos area needed protection from the

14     special police?

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   Well, you see, let's look, please, at a meeting on the

20     26th of June, a couple of days later.

21             MS. KORNER:  Which is document - it's already an exhibit - P81,

22     please.

23        Q.   You're there, and you brief the Crisis Staff, as we can see.  And

24     then there's a long discussion, isn't there, about what had happened at

25     the health centre and the killings by the special police?

Page 14430

 1             Do you remember that, sir?

 2        A.   I remember there was talk at that meeting and some other meetings

 3     about this, but I don't recall the details because I didn't keep the

 4     minutes, although I did take some notes.  I don't know where that

 5     notebook is now.

 6             I don't remember all the details anymore, but I remember this was

 7     discussed.  There were certain irregularities committed by that unit.

 8             But I'm sure that it is exactly as the minutes read, but I can't

 9     remember what it was about.  I -- I had never been there, it wasn't my

10     responsibility, and I don't know about it.

11        Q.   Yes.  Well, this is what I want to deal with, sir:  As far as you

12     were concerned, anything that was done by the special police, or any

13     other form of police in Kotor Varos, was none of your business; is that

14     what you're saying?

15        A.   It couldn't have concerned me because it was not my

16     responsibility.  Maybe it could have concerned me as a citizen, but my

17     area of competence was quite different from the area of competence of the

18     police.  And what they were doing, I don't know.  It was not my duty, nor

19     was I able to deal with something that I did not know outside my own

20     zone, and this was the area of the 1st Kotor Varos Light Brigade.  It was

21     not my area.  I can't know about that.

22        Q.   Yes, all right.  But you were attending all of these - and we can

23     count up -- I think it's at least a dozen or so meetings that you were

24     present at of the Crisis Staff during this period - in order to ensure

25     cooperation.  You've told us that.

Page 14431

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        Q.   I want to go back for a moment.  There's one matter I should have

15     asked you about in an earlier meeting on the 25th of June, which is at --

16             MS. KORNER:  It's 10508.

17             And, Your Honours, I think we better go back into private for

18     this bit -- one -- for this one.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14432











11 Pages 14432-14438 redacted. Private session.















Page 14439

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, while the shutters are going up, I'm

 7     going to play the witness the video, which is already exhibited, P45,

 8     which is at tab 34A, the transcript.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. KORNER:  Sound.  Anybody?  Could we have sound, please.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam Korner, it appears that the matter is in

13     your hands.  The Registrar is no longer running this tape.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'd move on to deal with something

16     else, but I really do need to play this video, and I need to have sound.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, we're informed that the AV booth may

19     be of assistance and they may add the sound to your video, but, in that

20     case, it appears that the sound will be available to the public.  Is that

21     a problem?

22             MS. KORNER:  Oh, yes.  No, there's absolutely no problem with

23     that at all.  This can all go out publicly.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  In that case, we thank the AV booth for the

25     assistance, and kindly ask them to add the sound to this video.

Page 14440

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 3             "... security of Banja Luka and the army ... with Muslim

 4     extremists.

 5             "The mopping-up operations in the area around Kotor Varos

 6     continue today.  In a lightening operation, members of a special

 7     detachment of the Banja Luka Security Services Centre and the Army of the

 8     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina took Bilice, one of the best

 9     fortified strongholds of the Croat extremists.  The specials and the army

10     had only one person injured in this operation, whereas the enemy had some

11     50 fatalities and a large number of wounded.  The mopping-up continues,

12     and there are only three entrenched strongholds of the

13     Croat-Muslim outlaws left.  In the town itself, the situation is

14     gradually returning to normal.  Although movement is still allowed only

15     from 9.00 to 11.00, life is slowly returning to the streets of

16     Kotor Varos.

17             "Yesterday, Muslim and Croat forces allegedly wanted to negotiate

18     with the Serb side about the cessation of war and establishing peace in

19     these parts.  The Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

20     the police accepted this invitation and set off for the meeting,

21     believing that an understanding was possible.  Only a few kilometres from

22     Kotor Varos, our concealed hosts, Muslim extremists, waited hidden in

23     ambushes, and treacherously and perfidiously opened fire on the army and

24     police troops.

25             "In this perfidious attack, one person was killed and a number of

Page 14441

 1     specials and soldiers wounded.  Today, Captain Slobodan Zupljanin is also

 2     in the Banja Luka hospital.  We first went to visit Captain Zupljanin who

 3     is currently recovering here.

 4             "Captain Slobodan Zupljanin:  To be quite frank, I suppose that

 5     it could happen and we could be waylaid, but we never expected it at that

 6     place because the place we were to go to ... is much better for an ambush

 7     so that it came as a surprise.  I am aware, though, after all the

 8     situations in the West Slavonian theatre of war, from which I had come,

 9     that the enemy will resort to any method, any means, any way to destroy

10     and liquidate us, systematically, step by step.

11             "Nenad Stevandic:  I repeat, it is not all that important either

12     for Europe or the world, but for ourselves" --

13             MS. KORNER:  Just pause there.

14        Q.   Sir, looking at that clip of Captain Stevandic, are you able to

15     give us a rough date of when this video must have been shot?

16        A.   I will have to look at the document.  The fact is that

17     Captain Slobodan Zupljanin was wounded on the road between Kotor Varos

18     and Vrbanjci village; however, I honestly can't tell you the exact date.

19     I will have to consult some of my documents, so let's not waste time

20     about it.  But he was ambushed, and on that occasion his driver was

21     killed; whereas, Captain Zupljanin sustained serious injuries.

22             MS. KORNER:  Let's carry on then, please.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

25             "... know who we are dealing with, to know who is wagging war

Page 14442

 1     against us, and how he wages that war because in this war all we can do

 2     is either win or vanish.  Anyone else's victory would unquestionably mean

 3     that we would vanish and become extinct as a people.

 4             "Reporter: Goran Tunic, a member of the special police detachment

 5     from Banja Luka, was also seriously wounded yesterday.

 6             "Tunic: There can be no more negotiations with them.  They seem

 7     to recognise only the language of arms, and that is how we should respond

 8     to them.

 9             "Reporter: Try to [as interpreted] do it to their own, and what

10     they are prepared to do to others, they show us day in and out.

11             "Announcer: It is high time for you finally to part company with

12     the extremists who endanger your lives by sowing terror, and we call on

13     you to immediately drive out any extreme individuals who have come to

14     your village, as your villages could go up in flames because of them.  In

15     particular, we call upon the Muslim people not to be duped by Croat

16     extremists who push Muslims in front of them to kill Serbs.  You must

17     realize that Croatian policy uses the Muslims in pursuit of their goals.

18     Citizens, go back to your homes, hand over your weapons, and once and for

19     all leave the extremists, who wish neither you nor your children well.

20     To all those who return their weapons, we guarantee absolute safety of

21     their property and persons, says the appeal of the Kotor Varos Crisis

22     Staff."

23             MS. KORNER:  Okay.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

Page 14443

 1             "Reporter: ... under the control of Muslim and Croat extremists

 2     the chief organisers of resistance in these villages are the notorious

 3     criminals Muhamed Berbic" --

 4             MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... pause here, and

 5     can we just go back slightly.

 6             No.  So just one shot before.

 7             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 8             "... are under the control of Muslim and Croat extremists."

 9             MS. KORNER:

10        Q.   Sir, first of all, can you tell us what that weapon is?

11        A.   This is an artillery piece, an anti-armour rocket --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters didn't hear the designation

13     number.

14             MS. KORNER:

15        Q.   Yeah, sorry, can you repeat what the number of the rocket is,

16     please?

17        A.   I'm repeating the name of the rocket:  It has a serial number,

18     but this is 9K11 rocket.  This is its official name.

19        Q.   And the people in uniform, what sort of uniform is that?

20        A.   As far as I can see, they're wearing the uniforms left behind by

21     the JNA.

22             Now, let me add one thing:  Slobodan Zupljanin was wounded on the

23     25th of June at around 10.00 next to Rujevica hill.

24        Q.   Yes.  Can we carry on, please?

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 14444

 1             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 2             "... notorious criminals Muhamed Berbic and Mehmed Sadikovic.

 3     They have many wounded in their ranks, and they're running out of food.

 4     Vrbanjci, a recent Ustasha stronghold, is now firmly in the hands of the

 5     army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 6             "Lieutenant-Colonel Bosko Peulic:  On this occasion, I want to

 7     point out that we have met with outstanding cooperation, even among those

 8     people, but unfortunately, our experience in two villages where we

 9     managed to reach an understanding, was that units of the

10     Interior Ministry of the Serbian Republic of Krajina and members of my

11     unit were fired on from those villages so that we had to respond

12     appropriately.

13             "Reporter: Mr. Brdjanin, tell us, why did you come, and how do

14     you see the latest developments in the Kotor Varos municipality?

15             "Radoslav Brdjanin:  Let me tell you ..."

16             MS. KORNER:  I want to pause for a moment.

17             Can we go into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14445











11 Pages 14445-14447 redacted. Private session.















Page 14448

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

 8             "... the reason for my coming here is that every Monday I must

 9     inform the president of Crisis Staff about the political situation in the

10     area.  We must clean up our area which unquestionably includes

11     Kotor Varos and Jajce.  And the most important battle which is underway

12     and which I attended yesterday is the breakthrough to Serbia.  Simply, we

13     can see ourselves that there can be no more negotiations with those who

14     are waging war against us.  Those who took up arms must be defeated, hand

15     them over, and total Serb authority must rule here.

16             "Stojan Zupljanin:  We requested the political structures to do

17     whatever is necessary to avoid possible conflicts when facilities could

18     be destroyed, when people could get killed and so on, but I must say that

19     the other side has accepted this activity of ours, at least in part.  A

20     number of extremists, however, have taken to the woods and do not want to

21     place themselves under control or to return weapons.

22             "Reporter:  The purpose -- this surprise visit by the Krajina

23     leadership to the Serbian soldier testifies to synchronised cooperations.

24     The officers and men of the Serbian armed formations, in addition to

25     activities for the liberation of the Serb territories, are also directly

Page 14449

 1     included in the establishment of a corridor to Serbia as one of the

 2     greatest operations in the history of the Serbian People.

 3             "Announcer: ... a special police detachment and three in the Army

 4     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and seven police members

 5     were lightly wounded.  No sooner were their wounds dressed then they

 6     returned, of their own accord, to their positions in order to help their

 7     comrades break down the last enemy stronghold in the Kotor Varos

 8     municipality.  In fighting at Becici today, the Muslim-Croat extremists

 9     had 30 dead and several dozen wounded.  Incidentally, Becici is

10     surrounded by Serb forces.  And among the rocks and caves are die-hard

11     extremists from this municipality who are refusing to surrender, although

12     it quite clear to them that there is no escape for any of them.

13             "Reporter: ... in ambushes, hiding in cliffs, the Ustasha opened

14     fire on members of the special detachment and Serbian troops.  It was

15     then that fiercer fighting started.

16             "Soldier: We found ourselves in a gorge about two kilometres

17     long, under cross-fire, in a ready-made slaughter house.

18             "Reporter: After being wounded and given aid on the spot, the

19     wounded specials returned to their combat positions of their own accord

20     and resumed fighting whilst other wounded transferred from Kotor Varos to

21     Banja Luka hospital yesterday.

22             "Goran Sladojevic:  It was difficult ... they were all

23     camouflaged, they fired on us so that it was simply ... [inaudible]

24             "Reporter: Where were you at the time, Goran?

25             "Goran Sladojevic: I was in the gorge leading to that village --

Page 14450

 1     Becici.

 2             "Reporter:  You were fired at with a dum-dum bullet?

 3             "Goran Sladojevic: Yes, luckily it hit me from the side, into a

 4     rock, actually, so the rest of it ..."

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   Sir, over -- in this video - and I can't remember where it is

 7     now, unfortunately, and I don't want to waste time - there's shots of an

 8     air force -- a plane bombing, did the Serb -- the VRS have air support?

 9        A.   I didn't see that footage here.  The Army of Republika Srpska

10     could get air support but exclusively following rules.  Now, the plan for

11     the approval and use of aviation envisages that the army command issues

12     an order granting air sorties, and requests for air support have to be

13     made like in any other context.

14             MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... could you we

15     have up, please, now, and we don't need -- there's no transcript

16     necessary for the part I want to show, the next vide.  It's 105 -- sorry.

17     It's 3623, and it -- this is one -- a new one that you admitted,

18     Your Honours.

19             And can we start, please, there - because it's just

20     identification I want from this video - at 5:40.

21             Yes, if we can just start there, please.  Thank you.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MS. KORNER:

24        Q.   And, sir, can you tell us when can you see on that video

25     Slobodan Dubocanin.

Page 14451

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Is that Kotor Varos Police Station?

 4        A.   I can't see clearly in this footage.  I cannot tell either way.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is outside the police station.

 7     I see the garages, that is, the parking space outside the police station.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

11        Q.   Can you tell us whether you see Slobodan Dubocanin?

12                           [Video-clip played]

13        A.   I think this man wearing glasses who just passed by the camera

14     is -- is him.

15        Q.   And what sort of uniform are these people wearing?

16        A.   I don't know whose uniforms these are.  I cannot tell.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

18        A.   They are camouflage uniforms but not military camouflage.

19             MS. KORNER:  Can we go then, please, very quickly to 9:18.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21        Q.   All right.  Are you able to identify these people?

22        A.   No.  Because I really don't know these people.  Apart from that

23     third man in the background.  I believe I met him a couple of times, and

24     I think he said his name was Kajkut.  The third one who just turned his

25     back.  That -- that's ...

Page 14452

 1        Q.   Okay.  What about -- are you able to identify Ljuban Ecim in any

 2     of these three men?

 3        A.   I think I saw him earlier in close-up.  I think that's the one

 4     whose right arm is raised now.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6        A.   The other one in the background is Kajkut.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 8        A.   Yes.  That's Ljuban Ecim, as far as I can tell.

 9        Q.   All right.  The weapon he's carrying, are you able to say whether

10     that's a military or police weapon?

11        A.   As far as I can see, he's carrying something like a Heckler, an

12     automatic weapon.  Or it's an automatic pistol.  But it's a sawn-off

13     weapon.  It's a short one.  A Heckler is not an army weapon.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... all right.  That's all I

15     want to ask about this video.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I ask that it now be admitted and

17     marked.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1579, Your Honours.

20             MS. KORNER:  All right.

21        Q.   I now want to leave the Kotor Varos matters and move to the

22     incident at Koricanske Stijene on the 22nd of August.

23             Sorry, just before I do that, I should have asked you this:  What

24     did you understand that Dubocanin's position was?  Was he a member of the

25     army or the police?

Page 14453

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22        Q.   Now, I do, as I say, want to move to the events of the

23     21st of August.

24             MS. KORNER:  I think we better go into private session,

25     Your Honours.  And, indeed, I think -- can we -- lines -- page 66,

Page 14454

 1     lines 19 through to 25 needs to be redacted.

 2             Can we go into private session, please.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 14455











11 Pages 14445-14466 redacted. Private session.















Page 14467

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 14468

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we take the adjournment for today.  You would

 3     be notified as to the agreed date when you would return, and, of course,

 4     the necessary arrangements would be made to facilitate your return.

 5             And this hearing is adjourned to -- I can't remember which

 6     courtroom we're in on ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  We resume at 2.15 on Monday, in Courtroom III.  I

 9     trust everyone has a safe weekend.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of

13                           September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.