Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15225

 1                           Monday, 4 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             Good morning everybody in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances today, please.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Good morning, Your Honours.

13             Tom Hannis, Belinda Pidwell, and Crispian Smith for the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16             Slobodan Cvijetic and Deirdre Montgomery for the Stanisic Defence

17     team.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

19             Dragan Krgovic, Igor Pantelic, Aleksandar Aleksic, and

20     Daniella Sinobad appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             May we have the witness back to the stand, if there is nothing

23     that we need divert our attention to.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Miskovic, good morning to you.  I remind you,

Page 15226

 1     sir, that you're still on your oath.

 2             Yes, Ms. Pidwell.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4                           WITNESS:  SIMO MISKOVIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Examination by Ms. Pidwell: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 8        A.   It doesn't work.

 9        Q.   Good morning, sir.

10        A.   [In English] Morning.

11        Q.   Is it working now?

12        A.   [Interpretation] It's working.

13        Q.   Sir, on Friday, we -- we ended by looking at a document which

14     were the minutes of the Municipal Board meeting which was held on the

15     23rd of April, 1992.  Do you recall that?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   And there was a reference in that document to a meeting which was

18     scheduled to take place two days later at Cirkin Polje.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did you attend that meeting at Cirkin Polje on Saturday,

21     the 25th of April?

22        A.   I did.  I did.

23        Q.   Who was present at that meeting?

24        A.   Well, according to the agenda, there was the commander of the TO,

25     Kuruzovic; and the chief of the MUP, Simo Drljaca; as well as the

Page 15227

 1     representatives of the Serb authorities of the Serbian municipality of

 2     the Prijedor, that is, the -- the highest ranking people, Mico Kovacevic,

 3     Slavisa Dakic, and others.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, Mico Stakic.

 5             MS. PIDWELL:

 6        Q.   And do you recall the decisions that were made at that meeting?

 7        A.   I remember.  Since there was the danger of continued

 8     confrontation in Prijedor municipality, in order to prevent the

 9     conflicts, it was decided to seize power.  And it was agreed that this

10     would take place at 4.00 a.m., and it was done that way, indeed.

11        Q.   And how was it decided on which day this takeover would take

12     place?

13        A.   I spoke about that earlier.  On that day, the 29th, I was at a

14     meeting in Prijedor at the MUP.  The representatives of the SDA were

15     there, the political representatives, and the representatives of the

16     authorities.  Mujadzic and the president of the municipality, whose name

17     I always forget.  And there was the chief of the MUP, Telundzic.  And it

18     was a friendly conversation until the communications clerk brought a

19     dispatch and read it out to all of us and the dispatch said that the

20     Muslim forces were attacking barracks, intercepting our armoured

21     vehicles.  And then among the police officers present at the meeting,

22     there was a commotion, but we were able to calm them.

23             After the meeting, I was invited to come to the barracks, and I

24     did.  Everybody was sitting there, Kuruzovic and ... Kuruzovic, the

25     TO commander; then Simo, the chief of the MUP; and Jankovic.

Page 15228

 1             Furthermore, Cadzo; Arsic, the barracks commander of the

 2     43rd Brigade; and his deputy, Beljaja; as well as Radovan Arsic --

 3     Arsic's deputy were already there.  As far as I remember, these were the

 4     people who were already there when I arrived.

 5             The decision was taken then to take over power with regard to the

 6     events mentioned in the dispatch because they were what prompted us to do

 7     so.  And it was agreed to do it on the same evening.  That was Arsic's

 8     proposal.  But I was afraid that there could be a conflict, because it

 9     was a workday, and I was afraid that things might take a bad turn.  So my

10     idea was to do it on Saturday, and as they said to me, Simo -- but from

11     whom do you take power on Saturday, because it isn't a working day?

12             So the final decision was to do it in the evening, that is, the

13     night from the 29th through the 30th, and it was done that way.

14        Q.   Going back, sir, to the meeting that was held on the

15     25th of April, was a decision made at that meeting as to when the

16     takeover would take place?

17        A.   No.  That decision wasn't taken then.  If you followed the

18     development of events, in all documents and all contacts and

19     conversations there was always the language, if the Serb People in

20     Prijedor municipality should be threatened, then there would be takeover

21     of power, according to Variant B.  You can find that in the text,

22     Variant B.

23             And if you allow, and if it's of interest, let me explain that

24     the fear among the Serb People was not irrational.  So I could give you a

25     historic overview of events that triggered this apprehension and fear.

Page 15229

 1        Q.   Well, sir, we don't have the benefit of that much time.

 2             Let me --

 3        A.   It was just a question.

 4        Q.   Let me take you back.  Were there any additional meetings between

 5     the 25th of April and the 29th of April, when you attended this meeting

 6     at the MUP building in Prijedor?

 7        A.   Well, from today's vantage point, after 20 years, I couldn't be

 8     certain about either.

 9             I don't remember that, but I remember that meeting, so if you

10     could remind me, I will -- you'll probably jog my memory.

11        Q.   When you attended the meeting at the MUP building, what was the

12     purpose of the meeting?

13        A.   I can't really remember what the purpose of the meeting was

14     because I arrived late.  Everybody was already there.  Police officers

15     and these representatives and everybody.  Only later did my guys from the

16     municipality tell me to go to that meeting, and they had gone to that

17     other meeting which -- of which I wasn't aware then.  So I don't know

18     what the purpose of the meeting was.

19        Q.   Who chaired the meeting at the MUP building?

20        A.   The chief did, Telundzic.

21        Q.   And who was there representing the SDA?

22        A.   Mirza Mujadzic did, and the president of the Municipal Assembly

23     who was elected on behalf of the SDA.  I always forget his name.

24        Q.   And how were you informed about the subsequent meeting held by

25     the Serb municipal leaders?

Page 15230

 1        A.   When I came back from the meeting, they called me up and told me

 2     to go to the barracks, which I did.  And there, everybody was already

 3     there, as I have already explained.

 4        Q.   And you told us who was present at this -- the second meeting,

 5     and you mentioned Simo.  Who were you referring to when you used that --

 6        A.   Yes, I did.  Simo Drljaca.  Because that earlier meeting, I

 7     remember, there was the Committee for Internal Organisation when he was

 8     appointed to be chief of the MUP.

 9        Q.   And where did the second meeting take place exactly?

10        A.   You mean with the representatives of the Serb authorities to

11     which I came late?  Do you mean that one?

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... yes.

13        A.   In the JNA barracks in Prijedor.  At Urije.

14        Q.   And you've told us that a decision was made there and then to

15     take over the municipality that evening.  Were you -- what arrangements

16     were --

17        A.   Yes, the following day.  That is, the following night.

18        Q.   What actual arrangements were decided upon then to take over the

19     municipality?

20        A.   Nothing special was decided upon.  The TO, which was in existence

21     already, and the police, the Serb police, were supposed to prepare the

22     manpower to perform the takeover, to carry out -- to -- and the

23     institutions should be prepared, and there should be a certain number of

24     people available.

25        Q.   Did you decide to meet later on that evening?

Page 15231

 1        A.   Yes, at 2.00 a.m.  We -- we were supposed to consider -- or to

 2     assess whether everything was well-organised and whether we should carry

 3     out the operation.  So we were supposed to check whether everything was

 4     we well-prepared and likely to succeed.

 5        Q.   And did you, in fact, meet again at 2.00 a.m.?

 6        A.   Yes, we did.

 7        Q.   Where did that meeting take place?

 8        A.   It took place at Cirkin Polje on the premises of the local

 9     commune.

10             Kuruzovic, the commander of the TO, reported to us that

11     everything that was functioning well and that there shouldn't be any

12     problems.  Simo reported in respect of the police that everything was

13     well-organised and that there shouldn't be any problems.  And when all

14     that was said, the decision was taken that the takeover of power should

15     be carried out at 4.00 a.m.

16        Q.   So what happened between 2.00 a.m. and 4.00 a.m. on this night?

17        A.   Yes.  Well, from 4.00 a.m. till 6.00 a.m., all institutions in

18     the cities were taken over by these formations; that is, the MUP, the

19     municipality, the SDK, the post-office, and so on.  And I must point out

20     that there were no problems, no excessive events, and nobody got as much

21     as scratched in the operation, and -- which was a big relief for all of

22     us.

23        Q.   Sir, before -- before the actual takeover took place at

24     4.00 a.m., was -- was there a gathering of -- of people, of army and

25     police, at any particular point?

Page 15232

 1        A.   I explained already that there was no rally at the staff.  The

 2     Serb police was there, and there was the TO commander; and the chief of

 3     the police reported to us that they had mobilized the manpower and

 4     prepared everything to carry out the operation.  And once they had done

 5     that, the decision was taken at 2.00 that the operation should be

 6     launched at 4.00.

 7        Q.   During the -- this period of the takeover, where were you based?

 8        A.   I was on the premises of the local commune where the decision was

 9     taken.  I stayed there all the time on duty-service by the telephone,

10     because I had grown up there and my colleagues were involved and they

11     were all armed.  But once I heard that everything had gone smoothly, I

12     really was relieved.

13        Q.   So when you say you were on duty-service by the telephone, who

14     was reporting in to you at this time?

15        A.   Well, I wasn't the operative officer.  But I wanted to know.  I

16     was nervous and apprehensive.  That's why I sat by the telephone all the

17     time, to hear what -- what they had to say, if anybody would call.  I was

18     especially interested in the police because of my colleagues.  And those

19     who carried out the takeover of power were also my colleagues.

20        Q.   And how did you hear that the takeover had been successful?

21        A.   Well, reports were submitted.  Kuruzovic and Simo Drljaca

22     informed everybody, and they reported on what they had done.  They said

23     that they had problems with the guard at the SDK who was asleep.  They

24     had trouble waking him.  And that was the last facility that was taken

25     over.

Page 15233

 1        Q.   I'd like you to have a look at a document, sir.  It's 65 ter 411,

 2     tab 19.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  P652.

 4        Q.   You'll see, sir, this is a dispatch dated the 30th of April from

 5     Simo Drljaca to the Banja Luka CSB.  And it says:

 6             "Based on your dispatch of the above number and date, please be

 7     informed ... ten police stations and 1.587 policemen were mobilized."

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Does that -- does that figure seem correct to you?

10        A.   I believe it is correct.  But that was a dispatch that was sent

11     through police channels.  I wasn't familiar with it.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the volume in the witness's headphones

13     please be lowered.

14             THE WITNESS:  It's too high.

15             MS. PIDWELL:

16        Q.   Sir, do you remember giving an interview on the radio about the

17     takeover of the municipality in April 1995?

18        A.   Yes, I do remember.  There was an announcement.  I spoke for the

19     radio on behalf of the people who were taking over the power.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  Turn to 65 ter 587, please.  It's tab 60.

21        Q.   Do you recall listening to the audio version of this interview

22     last week?

23        A.   Yes.  And I also read this -- yes, these were my words, the words

24     I spoke on the Radio Prijedor broadcast.

25        Q.   So you recognised your voice; is that correct?

Page 15234

 1        A.   Yes.  And the context.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  If we turn to the second page, please, in both

 3     versions.

 4        Q.   At the end of your speech, sir, you'll see the reporter makes an

 5     announcement that that was Mr. Simo Drljaca.

 6        A.   I can see that.  That was a mistake.

 7        Q.   Was Mr. Simo Drljaca involved in this interview at all?

 8        A.   I think he was, but I really can't remember.  I can't remember

 9     Slobodan being there.  But having read here that he was, I remember.

10     That was 20 years ago.

11        Q.   In any event, the first speaker that we see on this transcript

12     was you?

13        A.   Yes, that was me; that's right.

14        Q.   And the next speaker, did you recognise the voice of

15     Slobodan Kuruzovic?

16        A.   Yes -- yes, yes.

17        Q.   And did you also recognise the voice of Mico Kovacevic?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And your account of the -- the takeover during that radio

20     broadcast, was that an accurate account?

21        A.   Well, 99 per cent of it was accurate.  One must take into account

22     that we were emotional at the time and the desire to show that the

23     operation was done well.

24             Am I too close?  Okay.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd ask for that transcript to be admitted and

Page 15235

 1     marked, please.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1617, Your Honours.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:

 5        Q.   After the takeover had occurred during the night, did you inform

 6     anyone of the events and the outcome?

 7        A.   There was no one to inform.  I didn't inform anyone.  Well, at

 8     least as far as I remember.

 9        Q.   And after the takeover, did you, in your capacity as SDS

10     president, visit the municipal buildings that day to see who was now in

11     power for yourself?

12        A.   Well, you see, that evening when the decision was made to take

13     over power, another decision was reached, namely, that representatives of

14     Serbs that were in charge of certain positions within the Municipal

15     Assembly, Stakic was the president of the Assembly, the secretary, the

16     Executive Committee president, that they should show up at their work at

17     6.00 a.m. so that by 7.00 a.m. they would already be there.  And the

18     entrance policeman, I think, was placed, who prevented the president of

19     the municipality to enter the building.  And someone else, I think, some

20     other officials who were members of the SDA.  Everyone else was at their

21     workplace, as usual.

22        Q.   And do you recall how it was announced to the people of Prijedor

23     that the takeover had, in fact, taken place?

24        A.   As I have mentioned a moment ago, before this interview and after

25     the takeover of power, an announcement was read over the radio to the

Page 15236

 1     citizens with explanations of why the takeover had taken place, and that

 2     the situation is calm, that there will be no repression or any problems,

 3     that president of municipality and some officials were replaced, others

 4     remained working.  That was the gist of the announcement.  It preceded

 5     the interview for the radio.  It was repeated on several occasions.

 6        Q.   And after the takeover, did the weekly meetings of the Municipal

 7     Assembly continue?

 8        A.   Well, the authorities worked within the building of the Municipal

 9     Assembly.  According to Variant B, they started working independently.

10     The activities within the party were frozen, and the government

11     functioned normally.  Of course, there were problems and fears, and

12     therefore there were regular meetings, contacts with the citizens, with

13     representatives of other ethnicities, and it went on for a month, until

14     the said events.  Check-points were set up that were organised in 1991 so

15     that, for instance, somebody wouldn't go into areas where there were a

16     majority of the other ethnicity group and caused some excessive events,

17     but there were no problems in that period.

18        Q.   Who manned these check-points?

19        A.   The police.  We had the police doing it, and they had their own

20     check-points in order to prevent somebody going to the other side and

21     causing some problems.  That was the main reason for setting up the

22     check-points, to prevent some individuals or groups from doing something

23     unforeseeable.  And we didn't have any problems, neither in the period

24     before the takeover, nor after it, all the way until this attack on

25     Prijedor and the said events that followed it.

Page 15237

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  Can we look at another document.  It's 65 ter 413.

 2     It's tab 21.

 3             We might need the B/C/S a little larger, please.

 4        Q.   You'll see, sir, a document in front of you which is the minutes

 5     of the 2nd Session of the National Defence Council of the Municipal

 6     Assembly of Prijedor held on the --

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   And you were present?

 9        A.   Yes.  Yeah, I can see.  I don't remember it, but I can see here

10     in the minutes that I was there.

11        Q.   Firstly, could you explain to us who this body is, the

12     National Defence Council?

13        A.   The National Defence Council, well, that was a type of

14     organisation that was taken over from the previous period, from the

15     period of socialist government.  It was a provisional organ, and it was

16     tasked with helping the Municipal Assembly and the president of the

17     Assembly in issues related to security.  This system existed in former

18     Yugoslavia, and we maintained it after the takeover.  As you can see,

19     there was discussion about mobilization here.  The decision was reached

20     first, and then there were discussions about how to implement them.

21             MS. PIDWELL:  And if we can turn to the next page, please.  I

22     think, actually, the B/C/S, if you can remain on the same page; and the

23     English, we turn to the next page.

24        Q.   Under number 6, we see that a curfew was to be introduced.

25        A.   Yes.  Yes, that took place.

Page 15238

 1        Q.   And under number 7, we see that it states:

 2             "All paramilitary units and individuals who possess weapons and

 3     ammunition illegally are called upon to surrender them immediately, and

 4     not later than 11 May ... to the public security station in Prijedor."

 5             Do you see that?

 6        A.   Yes, I can -- I see that.  I remember them, both of these.

 7        Q.   And why was it necessary to make a decision on the surrender of

 8     weapons by the 11th of May?

 9        A.   First of all, in relation to the curfew, it was introduced to

10     make sure that in the night hours when it was dark, would not - and I

11     mean either an individual or a group - would cause some kind of problems

12     on any of the sides.  That was the main motive for the curfew.

13             And this item about paramilitary units and individuals who

14     illegally possess weapons, they're being asked to surrendered them to the

15     legal authorities, the police.  Again, for the same purpose:  To make

16     sure that there will be no armed fighting or anything like that.

17             You have seen that throughout the period within the municipality

18     of Prijedor there were no paramilitary formations nor were there any

19     problematic events.

20        Q.   Well, sir, if there were no paramilitary formations or

21     problematic events, why was it necessary to issue a direction to

22     surrender weapons at this time?

23        A.   It is stated here.  If there were any.  If there are individuals

24     who are in possession of illegal arms.  This is what is stated here.

25     They should hand them over.  Those who had authorisation from the MUP to

Page 15239

 1     possess arms, they didn't have to surrender their arms.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender that document, those minutes, at

 3     this stage, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1618, Your Honours.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  If we can go to 65 ter 415, please.  It's tab 24.

 7        Q.   You'll see on your screen, sir, we have some minutes of the

 8     SDS Municipal Board on the 9th of May, 1992, with you presiding.

 9             Do you recall this meeting?

10        A.   Let me just read this.

11             Could you please enlarge it a little bit for me?

12        Q.   There's a reference there, sir, under the number 2, afterwards it

13     goes on and says:

14             "Go on with the talks observing all the properties [sic], but

15     always keep in mind the final goal.  The idea is to achieve everything

16     peacefully and without destruction."

17             What was it meant when it said "go on with the talks observing

18     all the properties [sic]"?

19             Sorry, "proprieties."

20        A.   I don't know.  Nothing special happened.  I don't know what the

21     idea was.  I cannot explain this.

22             MS. PIDWELL:  If we can turn to the next page where Simo Drljaca

23     is reporting.  Page 2 on each, please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just find him.  I can't find

25     him.  Oh, yes, there he is.

Page 15240

 1             MS. PIDWELL:

 2        Q.   And Mr. Drljaca is saying that there's a problem with the

 3     protection of the facilities and "it's imperative that the TO take over

 4     such details so that the police can go back to their duties."

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  Well, that's logical.  The question was who will be

 6     providing security for the already-present facilities in order to avoid

 7     any problems.  And that was something that Territorial Defence and police

 8     had to take care of.  And Simo is here suggesting that TO should be doing

 9     that because they have more manpower.  It says here that they were afraid

10     of crime.

11        Q.   And he goes on to discuss the negotiations with the Ljubija and

12     Kozarac stations and a deadline being extended.

13             What was that deadline for?

14        A.   Well, you see, after the takeover in Prijedor, the police

15     stations in Ljubija and Kozarac were not taken over.  They continued

16     functioning in their areas.  And then there were talks between them for

17     the purpose of resubordinating them to the new-formed MUP Prijedor, under

18     the new circumstances, and that's the context of this conversation.

19        Q.   So those -- those police stations and areas that they covered,

20     Ljubija and Kozarac, they were Muslim areas, weren't they?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.  Croats were also in Ljubija.  The majority of

22     Croats lived in the area of Ljubija.

23        Q.   Why was it necessary to carry out full mobilisation of the TO and

24     the reserve police force within that context?

25        A.   They had already been mobilized at the time of the takeover of

Page 15241

 1     power, both the Territorial Defence and the police.  This is just

 2     continuing -- continuation of their functioning.  There were no new

 3     mobilisations of the Territorial Defence and the police.  They were

 4     mobilized before the takeover of power, and then they continued

 5     functioning like that.

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd ask that that document be admitted and marked.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1619, Your Honours.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:

10        Q.   Now, sir, during the month of May, were you involved in

11     negotiations which took place with the inhabitants of Kozarac?

12        A.   In that one-month period, until the attack of Muslim forces

13     against Prijedor, many talks were held with representatives of Kozarac

14     and other local communes, individuals, and groups, with the goal of

15     finding the best solution that would exclude any problems taking place in

16     the municipality of Prijedor.  One can see that in every document.  One

17     can see that through everything conversation.

18        Q.   Besides you, who else was involved in these negotiations?

19        A.   Well, me, Stakic, Drljaca, Mico, one of us or several of us

20     together.  Kuruzovic was also involved a lot.

21        Q.   And who were you negotiating with?

22        A.   Savunovic [phoen] also.  All the people from the top levels of

23     government were involved in the talks, either individually or in groups

24     of two, three.  It depends.

25        Q.   And from the -- from the people of Kozarac, who were you

Page 15242

 1     negotiating with?

 2        A.   They had a delegation.  As far as I remember, it was a math

 3     teacher, Mujkanovic I think his name was.  I know where his house was in

 4     Krkici [phoen].  And there was a group of people with him.  They came for

 5     the talks on that occasion.

 6             In the period prior to the takeover, we were arranging the

 7     arrival of me and Mujadzic to Kozarac, and it almost took place; however,

 8     it didn't.  Later on I was told by some friends of mine from Kozarac that

 9     this arrival of ours was postponed because there was a chance that an

10     extremist group would make an attempt on our lives.  But that is only

11     something I heard after the take over of power.  Now whether that's true

12     or not, I don't know, but that's whey heard from the people of Kozarac.

13        Q.   And could you briefly summarize for the Trial Chamber what it was

14     exactly that you were negotiating?

15        A.   The basic negotiations were about security, on one hand; and on

16     the other hand, the issue of changing of emblems on people's uniforms.

17     The flags should have been placed.  And the third thing was disarmament.

18     Those were the three topics of the agenda, these three segments.

19        Q.   And at some point was a deadline imposed for the people of

20     Kozarac to surrender their weapons?

21        A.   Let me tell you.  I know that, like this:  I did not personally

22     set any deadlines on behalf of the party.  It was the government, the

23     police, and the army who were in charge of that.  Disarmament is part of

24     their domain.  The government functioned, and they took over all the

25     tasks of the government, as we have seen in the documents.

Page 15243

 1        Q.   Do you recall why it was that these negotiations came to an end?

 2        A.   What I know is that the negotiations just failed to produce a

 3     final resolution of issues related to these three segments, and I think

 4     that's why the negotiations didn't come through.

 5        Q.   And after the negotiations failed, what action was taken against

 6     Kozarac?

 7        A.   I cannot remember.  If you could remind me ...

 8        Q.   Did you -- were you aware that the town of Kozarac was shelled?

 9        A.   Well, I cannot remember.  I assume -- I do know that it was

10     shelled, but I think that took place only after the attack on Prijedor,

11     not in this 30-day period between the 30th of April and the 30th of May.

12     I don't think it took place then - the shelling, I mean - while the

13     negotiations were going on, because part of the negotiation was a

14     decision, joint decision, whereby the army was put in charge of security

15     on the roads.  That was a joint position taken by all the parties.

16        Q.   Did you actually go into -- or into the town of Kozarac during

17     the month of May?

18        A.   No.  No, no, I wasn't there.

19        Q.   Where did these negotiations take place?

20        A.   At the premises of Prijedor municipality.

21        Q.   And do you recall the last date of the negotiations or when they

22     failed --

23        A.   As far as I remember, at least.  No, that, I don't remember.

24     That was a long time ago, 20 years ago.

25        Q.   When did you go back to Kozarac?

Page 15244

 1        A.   For the first time?  For the first time, it was after the

 2     shelling.  I think I reached Dera.  And not again for a long time.

 3        Q.   And this was -- this was a town that you knew well.  What you did

 4     see when you arrived there, after the shelling?

 5        A.   Well, I saw some houses and buildings destroyed by the shelling.

 6        Q.   And were the people of Kozarac going about their daily business?

 7        A.   Well, I couldn't see that because I only passed through the main

 8     street.  I think it was called Mladen Stojanovic Street.  That's the only

 9     part of the town that I saw.  Whether people went about their daily

10     business elsewhere, I don't know.  I didn't go anywhere else.

11        Q.   I want you to have a look at the document, sir, which is

12     65 ter 422.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, just bear with me.  No, 420.

14        Q.   These are some minutes of another National Defence Council

15     meeting, this time on the 15th of May, with you being present and

16     Mr. -- Dr. Stakic presiding.

17        A.   I can see that.

18             MS. PIDWELL:  And if we turn to the next page, please, on both

19     versions.

20        Q.   Just before the heading "Conclusions," you'll see this.  It

21     states there, simply:  "Disarmament of Paramilitary Formations" as a

22     topic.  And then the persons who participated in the discussion about

23     that:  Drljaca, Zeljaja, a number of other people.

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   You mean item 4, disarming paramilitary formations, yes, I can

Page 15245

 1     see that.  Simo Drljaca, Radmilo Zeljaja, and others took part in the

 2     discussion.  Conclusions were adopted.  All these are members of the

 3     government.  Zeljaja represented the garrison.  There was somebody from

 4     the National Defence.  Bosko, Mandic, and Ranko Travar were members of

 5     the defence council.  The entire -- the entire set.

 6        Q.   Sir, you've told us previously that there were no paramilitary

 7     formations -- no Serb paramilitary formations in the municipality at this

 8     time?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So what did this relate -- what did this relate to, then?

11        A.   Most probably it related to the paramilitary units on the Muslim

12     and Croat side.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  I ask that that document be admitted and marked.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1620, Your Honours.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You will remember that ...

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Could we now have 65 ter 422 on the screen, please.

18        Q.   Here we have, sir, some minutes of the Municipal Board of the SDS

19     meeting held on the 18th of May, with you opening and chairing the

20     meeting.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if we go down to the bottom of the page, we'll see --

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24        Q.   -- some conclusions that were adopted, after some discussion.

25     And one of them was:

Page 15246

 1             "Disarm paramilitary units and citizens owning [sic] weapons by

 2     peaceful means until the end of May; after that time, force will be used

 3     to enforce the disarmament."

 4             Do you see that?

 5        A.   I can see that.  Item 2, to disarm paramilitary units and

 6     citizens who are in possession of weapons by peaceful means; later on,

 7     force will be used.  Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   And are you aware that all the paramilitary units and citizens

 9     owning weapons were in fact disarmed, or did it come to the position

10     where force was used?

11        A.   Well, when we're talking about paramilitary units, I'd like to

12     note - and we have already discussed this before the beginning of

13     trial - I had heard that in the area of Carakovo, which is a Muslim local

14     Muslim commune, there was a paramilitary unit of Green Berets headed by

15     Slavko Ecimovic.  I was surprised to hear that because I knew the man and

16     I could never picture him in that role.  And I asked Dr. Sadikovic, who

17     knew Ecimovic, to go and ask him to come for talks.  And he, indeed, did

18     that and came back to me and said, Simo, there's nothing doing.  He has

19     ammunition belts across his chest and automatic rifle and he's playing

20     Rambo.

21             I was very surprised to hear that because the man was an

22     acquaintance of mine; I knew him; he was a businessman; he liked good

23     living; and I was really shocked by the news of his transformation.  And

24     that means, any way, that there were paramilitary units on the other side

25     that needed to be disarmed.

Page 15247

 1             And later on, in Prijedor, this Slavko showed up with his unit.

 2     And you can see that all that's discussed here was indeed justified.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to admit that document at this stage,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1621, Your Honours.

 7             MS. PIDWELL:

 8        Q.   Sir, I want to now ask you some questions about your visit to the

 9     detention facility at Omarska.

10        A.   All right.

11        Q.   When were you first told that a delegation was coming from

12     Banja Luka to visit this detention facility?

13        A.   I was never told about that, and I didn't know about it.  I just

14     saw by chance on the pavement outside the municipal building when this

15     delegation came in a motorcade, and I think Mico Stakic was there, and

16     Drljaca went to accompany them, and they said to me, Come along.  And

17     that's how I came to go to Omarska with them.  I had no prior information

18     this visit would take place.

19             I, as the president of the party, did not take part in the

20     government after the takeover.  Party functions were frozen.  But I went

21     everywhere, I dropped by the town hall, the municipal building, other

22     institutions.  I just -- I was just passing time.

23        Q.   So who was part of the delegation?  You've said Stakic and

24     Drljaca accompanied them, but who was it that came from Banja Luka?

25        A.   Mico was there too, not only Drljaca.  I don't know who came from

Page 15248

 1     Banja Luka.  I only saw them when they came out of the cars in Omarska.

 2     There was president of the municipal, Radic; I believe there was

 3     Vojo Kupresanin, Stojan Zupljanin; I believe also Radoslav Brdjanin.

 4     That is it.  I may be mistaken about one of them.  Maybe not all of these

 5     were present.  Maybe I omitted someone.  But that's all I can tell you.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just to clarify, perhaps the

 7     witness should be asked:  When he says Mico, whom does he mean?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mico Kovacevic - I'm sorry I'm

 9     using his first name; we were on very good terms; we were next

10     door neighbours living on the same street - when I say Mico, I mean

11     Mico Kovacevic.  I know it's very important for the Court to use the

12     first and last name.

13             MS. PIDWELL:

14        Q.   Right.  So we -- you joined -- you joined this delegation, and --

15        A.   [No interpretation]

16        Q.   -- from Prijedor town hall or the municipal building --

17        A.   That's correct.  No, in fact, they were already on the way.  They

18     did not get out of the car to go into the municipal building.  They were

19     on the road already.  And these two were on the side of the road.  Maybe

20     they had already arranged it by telephone.

21        Q.   So you went into a vehicle with -- well, with who?

22        A.   I don't know.  With Mico and Stakic and Simo.  I think even that

23     there was -- that was a police vehicle, but I'm not sure.  I would not

24     like to make a mistake here.  Anyway, I went there.

25        Q.   And did they tell you what the purpose of the visit was?

Page 15249

 1        A.   Not really.  We just got into the car and went.  They said, We're

 2     going to Omarska, the investigating centre -- the investigation centre.

 3     That's what they told me.

 4        Q.   And were you aware at this point in time that Omarska was being

 5     used for what you call an investigation centre?

 6        A.   Well, that was the information I had; namely, that a rather large

 7     number of persons were held in Omarska, being subjected to operative

 8     investigation conducted by public and state security personnel.  And as a

 9     professional, following that logic, I believed, and I still believe, that

10     it was an investigation centre where people were supposed to be

11     investigated to establish their possible criminal liability, and those

12     who were not charged with anything were supposed to be released.  I'm

13     speaking as a professional.

14        Q.   Were you involved in the decision to use the premises of Omarska

15     as an investigation centre?

16        A.   No, no.  I don't even know when that decision was made.

17        Q.   When you arrived at Omarska with this delegation, what did you

18     see?

19        A.   Well, we came in -- this was the door, and then we passed by one

20     building, and then stopped within the compound, facing another building.

21     In the first building outside which we stopped, there is a staircase

22     leading upstairs.  We got out there, climbed the steps, and entered the

23     conference hall on the first floor.  In the building next to us that was

24     fenced in - the fence was there even before the war, before the

25     takeover - there were a number of citizens of Prijedor, rather a large

Page 15250

 1     number of citizens, whom I knew.  But since they had not shaven for a

 2     long time, I couldn't recognise them.  But they certainly could recognise

 3     me, so I was rather embarrassed.  I kept my head down.  And keeping my

 4     head down, I went into the building.

 5        Q.   And besides being unshaven, what was the -- what did the

 6     detainees generally look like, in terms of their state of health and

 7     appearance?

 8        A.   Well, you know what?  You -- you don't need explaining.  Of

 9     course, if they didn't shave for a long time, they had long beards.  If

10     they hadn't changed clothes for a long time and hadn't washed them, you

11     know what it's like.  I'm here only for a couple of days and I still had

12     to have my shirts washed.  And they were all crumpled because they slept

13     in the same clothes, they couldn't hang them properly for the night.

14     That's whey meant.

15             About the health, I don't know who was in what state of health

16     and who had what kind of health problems, whether those problems, if any

17     occurred there or whether they came with these same problems.  The

18     physicians who examined them know that.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... I apologise

20     because I think that there is one part of his response, on the

21     page 25 line 2 or 3, missing.  It was related to the -- some video

22     recordings.  He mentioned that.  It's not ...

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The witness did

24     say - he's speaking very fast:  I was keeping my head down coming into

25     the building, and that is how you see me on that video footage.

Page 15251

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   You've told us that you saw a large number of people at Omarska

 3     on this day and that you knew a lot of them.  What was their ethnicity?

 4        A.   Muslims and Croats, both.  Except there were more Muslims,

 5     because, generally, there is a larger percentage of Muslims in the

 6     municipality of Prijedor.

 7        Q.   And what -- what took place at the -- at the meeting room on the

 8     first floor?  You've told us you went in, you walked upstairs, and went

 9     into a meeting room.  What took place there?

10        A.   At that meeting, somebody representing this facility reported on

11     the situation within the facility, on the steps and measures they had

12     taken, on their intention to file charges possibly against individuals.

13     That's --

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... who was that -- sorry, who

15     was that person?

16        A.   I don't know.  I don't know the name.  But you can probably see

17     it on that video footage.  It must have been the director of that

18     investigation centre.  The warden.  The film shows the entire course of

19     that visit.

20        Q.   Yes, we'll have a look at that in a minute.

21             How long did this -- did this meeting take place?

22        A.   As best as I can remember, not more than an hour, an hour and a

23     half, perhaps.  Perhaps I could have given you a better answer in

24     1991 or 1992.

25        Q.   Was everyone who had arrived with you, in terms of the

Page 15252

 1     delegation, present at this meeting that took place?

 2        A.   Yes.  We were all there.  We came into the room together.

 3        Q.   And were questions asked of the -- the person who was convening

 4     this meeting?

 5        A.   I couldn't tell you that.  Not after all this time.  I don't

 6     remember.  I think it was just the briefing by that warden.  Or perhaps

 7     there were some questions asked, but I really can't remember.  Possibly.

 8     Possibly, but I'm not sure.

 9        Q.   And, sir, were you surprised at all by what you saw there on that

10     day?

11        A.   Well, I don't know in what sense you mean.  "Surprised."  I was

12     taken aback by the appearance of the people I saw there, because I had

13     seen them before looking differently.  That's one thing.  And another

14     thing is that I was unable to recognise them when they looked like that.

15             And I have already answered to you concerning my professional

16     point of view on -- on that investigation centre.  It all looked rather

17     legitimate and legal, the way it was done.

18        Q.   And after that meeting, did you go directly back to the vehicles,

19     or did you have a walk around the other buildings at Omarska?

20        A.   We got back into the vehicles immediately.  We did not even tour

21     that building.  It was just next to the building which we entered.  The

22     two buildings were not far apart, 10 metres perhaps.  And all these

23     people were standing up as we were passing.

24        Q.   Did you ask to -- to talk to any of the people who were being

25     detained there?

Page 15253

 1        A.   No.  It was a police investigation.  I did not interfere.

 2        Q.   Do you recall when this visit took place?

 3        A.   I can't remember that either.  It was a long time ago.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  Can we have a look at a document, please.  It's

 5     65 ter 1566.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, we're just near the break.  We may as

 7     well wait until we return.

 8             So we return in 20 minutes.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Pidwell, you were about to show a document

13     to the witness.

14             MS. PIDWELL:

15        Q.   Sir, while that document is being brought up on the screen, just

16     to clarify, did you go to Omarska at any other time during the summer of

17     1992 or just on one occasion?

18        A.   That was the one and only time.  I never went there either before

19     or afterward.

20        Q.   Are you familiar with this newspaper that you see on your screen?

21        A.   This is a local paper, "Kozarski Vjesnik."

22        Q.   And do you see the -- the heading on the left -- the main heading

23     on the left-hand side of your screen, which says new authorities --

24     sorry, which says:  "Krajina representatives in Prijedor"?

25        A.   Yes.  There's a heading above that which reads:  "Visits."  But

Page 15254

 1     the main heading is "Krajina representatives in Prijedor."

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  And perhaps if we could make a little bit -- yes,

 3     that portion, exactly, a little bit larger for the witness.

 4             And we see that this newspaper is reporting on a visit from

 5     representatives from the Autonomous Region of Krajina - Brdjanin, Vukic,

 6     Zupljanin, Radic - saying they had visited Prijedor on Wednesday.

 7             Do you recall whether this coincided with your visit with these

 8     men to Omarska or do you think this was a different visit?

 9        A.   I don't know of any other visit.  I know that when I was there,

10     there were the people whom I mentioned.  I don't know about anything

11     else.  But I know that I never went to Omarska or Keraterm before or

12     after that one occasion.

13             MS. PIDWELL:  If we could turn, please, to the fourth page in the

14     B/C/S and the second page in the English.  And in the B/C/S, if we could

15     perhaps go to the right-hand side; it's the article on the other side of

16     the page.  Thank you.  And if we could make it slightly bigger, if

17     possible.

18        Q.   Now, I'm not sure whether you can actually read that, sir.  It's

19     a little bit blurred.

20        A.   It's difficult, but I can see -- I can read the bold letters.

21     Radoslav Brdjanin, Radoslav Vukic, Prijedor Radic, Stojan Zupljanin;

22     these names are printed in bold letters.

23        Q.   And there's a portion there which says:

24             "After they," referring to those -- the part of the delegation

25     from Banja Luka, "had made a tour of the combat areas and collection

Page 15255

 1     centres, the visitors from Krajina thanked their hosts for their

 2     hospitality and efforts in creating a new Serbian state in that area."

 3             Do you -- do you agree that that's an accurate reflection of what

 4     happened during your visit, that the visitors thanked the hosts from

 5     Prijedor of their efforts after they visited the combat areas and

 6     collection centres?

 7        A.   I told you in the proofing, and I must repeat it now, that I

 8     don't know where they went earlier.  That information is not known to me.

 9     They may have come from Banja Luka and waited before we entered.  Or

10     maybe they went to the combat area and then went on.  That's something I

11     don't know.  I only know what I mentioned, what I spoke about.  But I can

12     see here that Ecimovic is mentioned also.

13        Q.   And do you recall being present when Radoslav Brdjanin said:

14             "What we have seen in Prijedor is an example of a job well done"?

15        A.   I tell you, I don't even remember who spoke up there, let alone

16     such details.  No, I really don't remember.

17        Q.   And you -- you told us earlier, sir, that you didn't know that

18     this delegation was coming before you actually joined them.  Why was it,

19     then, that you joined the delegation going to Omarska?

20        A.   Well, I told you, I was on the sidewalk.  And they -- the people

21     from the municipality, that is, Mico Stakic, and maybe there was also

22     Simo, I'm not sure, or perhaps he only drove up the car.  But they were

23     outside.  I knew nothing about that.  And they almost dragged me with

24     them because there was a delegation coming, and I had to come with them.

25     And that's how it was.  I was almost dragged there.  And I didn't know at

Page 15256

 1     all that they would come or where they would go because they arrived when

 2     I was on the pavement.

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  I'd ask that that newspaper article be admitted and

 4     marked, please.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object.  I believe

 6     that the Prosecutor failed to show a sufficient nexus between this

 7     witness and this document.  He is not familiar with the article, nor does

 8     he know anything about the statements.  And he even wrongly identified

 9     the persons who went to visit Omarska.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I support Mr. Krgovic's objection.

11     I believe that the witness's testimony is of much better quality than the

12     article itself, so that the journalist's interpretation of the events may

13     be superfluous at this point in time.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, I'm trying to remind myself as to where

15     we about a year ago on this matter of newspaper articles, and my

16     recollection is that the substance of the objections are well-founded

17     insofar as that what we have, taken at its highest, accounts by a -- I

18     was going to say a third person, but by somebody outside of the

19     principles involved here and which the witness on the stand doesn't

20     necessarily accept how -- and could -- could you assist me as to how, in

21     your view, this is admissible and -- and of assistant?

22             MS. PIDWELL:  Certainly, Your Honour.  This newspaper article is

23     dated 17th of July, 1992.  The witness couldn't recall the exact date

24     when the delegation came from Banja Luka.  He says in his view it was the

25     one and only time the delegation came and visited the collection centres

Page 15257

 1     in the municipality of Prijedor.  This newspaper article is corroborative

 2     of his evidence that a delegation did in fact come and did go to the --

 3     the collection centres, and --

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So --

 5             MS. PIDWELL: [Overlapping speakers] ... his term --

 6             JUDGE HALL:  He was there.  He has given viva voce testimony as

 7     to what happened.  What do we need an article for?

 8             MS. PIDWELL:  In my submission, sir, the article assists

 9     Your Honours in determining the date, the exact date of the visit.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is not possible

11     because the article was probably written after the visit, even a few days

12     later.  So based on the article we cannot establish the date of the

13     visit.  We can tell the date when it was published, but not when the

14     visit took place.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do you know from another source what the date is?

16     Because you can with this article.  If the article -- the article is from

17     17th of July and it says that the visit was on Wednesday.  Wednesday --

18     Wednesday before 17th of July was the 14th of July.

19             Is there any ... do we have the -- a date for this visit from

20     another source?

21             MS. PIDWELL:  No --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Or is this a convenient way to determine the

23     date?

24             MS. PIDWELL:  This is -- in my submission, Your Honour, this is

25     the most convenient way to determine the date of this visit, because the

Page 15258

 1     witness - and we have can't called all of the witnesses from Prijedor at

 2     this stage - however, 18 years later, it's very difficult for them to

 3     determine, exactly, a date.  They may be able to say summer; they may be

 4     able to June, July.  But it may come -- this is the date that the accused

 5     visited Omarska.  And, in my submission, it is -- it's important for

 6     Your Honours to know when that occurred.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may?

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have another problem,

12     Your Honours.

13             I believe that no date is stated on this article.  It was

14     admitted in the Brdjanin case, but I don't believe that there is a date

15     indication here.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Inferentially, I gather -- sorry.

17             Yes, from -- as Judge Delvoie has said, that the --

18     inferentially, that the -- the date would be the Wednesday preceding the

19     date of publication, which would make it the 14th of July.

20             And the Chamber would admit the document for the limited purpose

21     of establishing the date, not for the contents.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1622, Your Honours.

23             MS. PIDWELL:

24        Q.   I want to show you a video now, sir.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  It's 65 ter 2320, at tab 48.  It's in Sanction.

Page 15259

 1             Now, if I can just comment briefly.  There is background noise

 2     and so forth in this video.  It's an ITN video going to Omarska.  And in

 3     the next video is actually the visit at Omarska.  They're in two separate

 4     videos.

 5             I don't propose for the witness to comment on the -- the audio,

 6     which is a lot of background noise and so forth.  I'm going to ask him,

 7     really, just to identify some of the individuals.  So the interpreters

 8     don't need to interpret the sound as they go along.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. PIDWELL:

11        Q.   Sir, do you recognise any of those people in that photo frame?

12        A.   No, I don't.

13        Q.   Do you know what they're doing?

14        A.   No.  I can see them standing, and the fat one is moving.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's ...

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MS. PIDWELL:

18        Q.   Just while we're watching that, did you have to go through any

19     check-points when you visited Omarska?

20        A.   I really don't remember which way we travelled there.  Much time

21     has elapsed.  And check-points were nothing extraordinary, especially in

22     areas populated by several ethnic -- ethnicities.

23             That was the usual practice.  There were countless check-points

24     all the way to the border with Serbia.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  If we can move it up to 12:30.

Page 15260

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. PIDWELL:  Pause there.

 3        Q.   Do you recognise that building?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   What is it?

 6        A.   It's Keraterm, I think.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   I can tell by the chimney.  The chimney belongs to the

 9     brickworks.  This was the building next to the brickworks.  It was a

10     modern factory which had been built some five or six years, maybe ten,

11     before the war.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. PIDWELL:

14        Q.   Do you recognise that building?

15        A.   I do.  This is the building in which I earned my pension.

16        Q.   And which building is that?

17        A.   The MUP building in Prijedor.

18        Q.   And we see, there, a line of women.  Do you know why -- did you

19     see women lined up outside the MUP building in Prijedor in 1992?

20        A.   No, I don't remember.  I can see a line here, and the line is in

21     front of the MUP building.  They're probably waiting for some documents

22     issued by the MUP, because the MUP also had remit over civil affairs.

23        Q.   And what kind of documents would -- would they be waiting for?

24        A.   I don't know.  But I know what the SUP [as interpreted] did.

25     Apart of -- from operative work, there was also the civil work, such as

Page 15261

 1     personal identity cards, registering your domicile, registering motor

 2     cars, et cetera.  That was a department of all the MUPs, including the

 3     one in Prijedor.  Also driving tests to get your -- to get a driving

 4     licence.

 5        Q.   And in order to leave the municipality, did you need to obtain

 6     some kind of document or authorisation from the MUP at this time?

 7        A.   Yes, you needed some document so that the authorities know that

 8     somebody had left so that they needn't search for people and that there

 9     would be no suspicion of something else having happened.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This woman is holding a personal

12     identity card.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MS. PIDWELL:  All right.  I think we can fast-forward now.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that woman, but I can't

17     remember her name.  This one is Stakic.  The one behind him is Simo.

18        Q.   The one -- the one holding his arm out is ...

19        A.   That is Milomir Stakic, president of the municipality.

20             MS. PIDWELL:  That's at 15:45 of the tape.

21        Q.   And the person directly behind him in the camouflage uniform

22     is ...

23        A.   Simo Drljaca, looking toward us, standing in the door.

24             Yeah, he is shaking that woman's hand, the woman wearing red.

25             MS. PIDWELL:  Let's pause here.

Page 15262

 1        Q.   So we have Stakic, I think, on the very left.  Who's next to him,

 2     going from left to right across the table?

 3        A.   Mico Kovacevic, president of the Executive Committee.

 4        Q.   And next to him?

 5        A.   Arsic, the garrison commander.

 6        Q.   And next to him, beside the --

 7        A.   Simo Drljaca, MUP chief.

 8        Q.   And do you know who the woman is?

 9        A.   No.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MS. PIDWELL:

12        Q.   And having a look at this -- this meeting that was being taking

13     place with the ITN reporters, are you able to assist us in where this

14     meeting took place?

15        A.   Judging by the room I see, it was probably the large meeting

16     hall - that's what we called it - of the Municipal Assembly in Prijedor.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  Just fast-forward.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MS. PIDWELL:

20        Q.   Do you recognise the -- the route that's being taken by this

21     convoy of vehicles?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   We see there a blue APC.  Do you recognise that?

24        A.   Let me just have a look.  I can't see it yet.

25             I see it.

Page 15263

 1        Q.   Do you recognise that vehicle?

 2        A.   That's the armoured vehicle that the police used in Prijedor.  We

 3     received it from the army, and it was painted blue.  It was used for

 4     practical purposes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  That's almost at the end of the tape.  And we move on

 6     now to another tape which shows the actual visit into Omarska camp.

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  I seek to tender this video at this stage.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  If we could have the next video, it's already an

10     exhibit, P1358 -- sorry.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1623, Your Honours.

12             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, Your Honour, it's tab 48A, the next video.

13     The previous one was 48.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. PIDWELL:

16        Q.   Sir, you see on your screen a line of men in what looks like a

17     canteen.  Do you recognise that building?

18        A.   I don't recognise the building.  This is the inside of a building

19     I've never been inside.

20        Q.   Do you recognise any of the men?

21        A.   No, no.  Not for now.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MS. PIDWELL:

24        Q.   Looking at the -- the general state of condition of the men that

25     we see in this footage, can you comment on whether that -- the men that

Page 15264

 1     you saw at Omarska were in a similar state of health or condition to

 2     these men?

 3        A.   No, I cannot, because I don't know them personally.  If I had

 4     known some of them personally before they were brought here and now --

 5     the way I see them now, then I could comment.  But, as it is, I really

 6     cannot.

 7             This is Simo Drljaca in an office.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  I think that's all we need to do with that video.

10     It's already an exhibit, Your Honours.  He can't really comment.  He

11     wasn't present at the meeting, so he can't comment on the interactions.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm a bit confused.

14     I expected that we would see a video about which this witness would say

15     something and a video after the first one.  That's why I -- I didn't

16     object to the first video being admitted, but I don't know what the

17     position of the OTP is about the date of this video and why it is

18     relevant, apart from the fact that the witness identified Simo Drljaca

19     and a couple of people from Prijedor.

20             JUDGE HALL:  I'm -- Mr. Krgovic, with respect, I'm not sure I

21     follow you.  In terms of the second video, the question that was asked

22     was whether the condition of the persons as shown there was what he

23     recalled his own observations to be, and that is items already in

24     evidence.

25             In terms of the first video, it was -- apart from the individuals

Page 15265

 1     that he pointed out, it was the path that they -- scenes from the journey

 2     to get to the Omarska camp.  I'm not sure I follow your reservation.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when introducing the

 4     first video, the Prosecutor said, We'll now play the video that this

 5     witness discussed.  But we haven't seen anything that the witness talked

 6     about.  I don't understand what is the position of the Prosecutor here.

 7     We've seen a convoy of cars with some people in them going somewhere.

 8     What's the date of this?  Is this the visit that the witness talked

 9     about, are these the people?  We haven't seen or heard any of that.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, you would reserve these questions for

11     your cross-examination.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Because if that's the position of

14     the Prosecutor, namely, that this was shot when he was there visiting

15     Omarska, then he should be asked about it.  That's why I didn't object to

16     the video, the first video, because I expected to see the continuation of

17     the visit, including the witness.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Pidwell, do we have a date on which this

19     video has been taken, the first one?

20             MS. PIDWELL:  Sorry, Your Honours.  We have a date for the ITN

21     visit when it was first admitted into evidence approximately six months

22     ago, I think.  And --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's the second one you mean?

24             MS. PIDWELL:  That's the second one.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  And the first one?

Page 15266

 1             MS. PIDWELL:  The first one is the -- we don't have a specific

 2     date on it, but it was the -- the ITN only went into Omarska once, and

 3     that is a video that precedes the second one.

 4             It's the Prosecution's case that this video -- these two videos

 5     were taken on the same day.  One is the unofficial lead-up to Omarska,

 6     and the other is taken at Omarska and was part of the broadcast that was

 7     aired publicly later on in the year by IN news.  The first part of the

 8     video wasn't part of that public screening.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what is the date of the second one?

10             MS. PIDWELL:  Second one is early August.  Now, it's not the

11     Prosecution's case that this was footage of this man's visit to Omarska,

12     but the purpose of showing Your Honours the first video was the lead-up,

13     and he was able to identify the people who were at the municipal building

14     who were introducing the ITN crew.  And the second video was simply to

15     identify Simo Drljaca in that video.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Now that the matter has been opened, I'm wondering,

17     Ms. Pidwell, whether we can take your ipse dixit that the first video

18     was -- bears the same date as the second?

19             MS. PIDWELL:  If Your Honours would like, I can check through the

20     chain of custody for the videos and provide that information to you.  If

21     it's an issue.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway, we -- let's move on.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             JUDGE HALL:  I see the transcript records me as saying

Page 15267

 1     ipse dicta.  It's ipse dixit.

 2             MS. PIDWELL:

 3        Q.   Sir, I'd like to you show another document, please.

 4             MS. PIDWELL:  It's tab 45.  65 ter 2750.

 5        Q.   Sir, you will see on your screen a document dated the

 6     24th of July from the Autonomous Region of Krajina to the Prijedor

 7     municipality, confirming a number of decisions which were adopted by the

 8     Crisis Staff between 29 May and 24 July, 1992.

 9             Were you involved in -- were you involved in making -- or passing

10     these -- making these decisions, firstly, by the Crisis Staff, which were

11     then sent to the -- the Autonomous Region of Krajina to ratify, or were

12     you not involved with those?

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I may have an

14     objection to this document.  Based on the document, we can see it's a

15     document by the municipality of Prijedor, not by the Autonomous Region of

16     Krajina.  I don't see anywhere in the documents, at least in the version

17     that's before us, what decisions of -- no decisions of Autonomous Region

18     of Krajina are mentioned here.

19             MS. PIDWELL:  Perhaps I'll ask the witness, then, to explain the

20     document.

21        Q.   Sir, have you had the opportunity to look at this document?

22        A.   No, I haven't had the opportunity to see the document, until the

23     proofing for this trial.

24             Since ARK Krajina had already been formed, in the heading we can

25     see stated Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Autonomous

Page 15268

 1     Region of Krajina, and then Prijedor municipality.  All of those were

 2     then formed, established by then.  And all the municipalities were

 3     duty-bound to have all the decisions by their Crisis Staffs verified by

 4     the Assembly.  This document is related to that.  The Assembly verified

 5     the decisions of the Crisis Staff.

 6             But let me remind you here that presidents of parties and

 7     people's deputies were not members of Crisis Staffs, and therefore I'm

 8     not familiar with this document.  At least I don't have any knowledge of

 9     it that stems from that time.

10        Q.   All right.  We'll leave that.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  We would like to hear

12     the explanation by the witness:  Who issued the document?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I was clear.  It was the

14     Prijedor Municipal Assembly, but because in the memo it is stated that

15     the Republika Srpska will be established and ARK Krajina will be

16     established, the heading reflects that.  And then under that it says

17     municipality of Prijedor.  And all the decisions made by Crisis Staffs

18     had to be verified by the Assembly.  And it was done -- this document was

19     sent to the Assembly, the Assembly then made its decision and verified

20     it.

21             Crisis Staffs took over the role of Assembly because they could

22     not -- the Assemblies could not work during the conflict period, and the

23     idea was to have the Assembly either verify or reject decisions reached

24     by the Crisis Staffs.  And it's in this context that we see the subject

25     here, and it's very clear:  "Confirmation of decisions within the

Page 15269

 1     competence of the Municipal Assembly adopted by the Crisis Staff."

 2        Q.   Well, in light of that explanation, sir, I would ask that the

 3     document be admitted or at least MFI'd at this stage.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Marked for identification.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  The -- the document may be admitted as an exhibit at

 7     this stage.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1624, Your Honours.

 9             MS. PIDWELL:

10        Q.   Sir, I'd like to ask you some questions, finally, on the reasons

11     why you attempted to resign from your position in Prijedor in

12     October 1992.

13             Do you recall making -- attempting to resign at that time?

14        A.   Yes, on two occasions.  The first time it was in 1992, in the

15     second half of 1992; and the second time was in August 1993, when I stood

16     by this request I submitted.

17        Q.   And what prompted you to attempt to tender your resignation in

18     the second half of 1992?

19        A.   After the takeover of power, as I've already mentioned during my

20     testimony here and during our previous contacts, so in the period prior

21     to the takeover and during it and up until the attack against Prijedor,

22     there were no incidents in the municipality of Prijedor.  After the

23     incidents that did take place - and let me make this clear:  I was the

24     president of the party, but the party wasn't functioning at this time -

25     but as a private person I was walking about, and after the armed

Page 15270

 1     conflicts in the municipality of Prijedor, there were cases of wilful

 2     activity by certain individuals.  There were some negative events that

 3     took place.  And through public discussion, the party seemed to be

 4     accused of being behind it.  And because of that kind of portrayal of the

 5     party among the citizens, which was not correct, I, as the president of

 6     the party, for the purpose of defending my own dignity and the dignity of

 7     the party, I drafted a document where I explained that in relation to all

 8     the negative events that took place in the area of Prijedor that are

 9     being ascribed to the party, I submit resignation, unless this document

10     of mine was adopted.  And the document had the purpose of washing our

11     hands of all the actions by individuals and groups.  And then we also

12     made an appeal to relevant organs to take legal measures against all the

13     people who are involved in illegal activities.  But the platform was

14     adopted, and therefore I did not go through with my resignation.

15             Also, the mandate of the people that were part of the structure

16     believed that it's time for younger people to come in and take over.

17     However, since this younger generation also acted wilfully, I then

18     resigned for good.

19             Before that, I had talks with Radovan Karadzic in Mrkonjic Grad,

20     who agreed to my proposals.  But on my return, there were obstructions by

21     some people, and I just realized I cannot go on, because I saw that

22     people had same goals.  And then I resigned, although the Assembly wasn't

23     there in full complement.  On behalf of the Main Board,

24     Mr. Radomir Neskovic was present, and I said, Here you have the

25     representative of the Main Board, but as of today, the 16th of August, I

Page 15271

 1     am not the president of the party anymore, and can you formalise that.

 2     And that's how things happened.

 3        Q.   Sir, you used the phrase "wilful activity of certain individuals

 4     and groups."

 5             What do you mean by that, and who were you referring to?

 6        A.   Well, it's like this:  I can discuss only rumours that were

 7     present around Prijedor; namely, it was the party that was blamed for all

 8     the activities.  But I wanted to defend the party and myself to -- I

 9     wanted to prove that it's not correct, and that's why I came up with this

10     document, a platform, a political platform that I presented.  I asked for

11     relevant organs to take action.  It was their duty to make sure that

12     violations of the law are processed by the police, military police,

13     judiciary.  Everything that there were institutions to deal with such

14     issues.

15        Q.   Well, what activities are you talking about?

16        A.   I don't understand.

17        Q.   What activities was the party being blamed for at this time?

18        A.   There were talks that they were looting, killing, that they are

19     removing construction material from other people's houses.  All the

20     events that come with the war, everything was put on the party's account,

21     so to speak.

22             There were also certain conflicts.  But these things, through

23     rumours among the people, created a certain picture of the party.  Now, I

24     don't know who was behind that, but the public picture of the party was

25     created in such a manner, and, therefore, I had this published in

Page 15272

 1     "Kozarski Vjesnik" so that citizens would know what our position was.

 2     You can find it among the documents that are in the possession of the

 3     Prosecutor, these "Kozarski Vjesnik" articles.

 4        Q.   And when you say that you asked the relevant organs to take

 5     action, which organs are you referring to when you make that comment?

 6        A.   Can you -- is my microphone on?  Yes.

 7             As I've said, like in any other system, there are institutions

 8     such as judiciary, police, military, military police, because we were in

 9     a state of war, Military Prosecutor's Offices, all of them had some

10     segments that were in charge of relevant activities.  There were cases

11     where individuals were brought in for interrogation, finally even

12     sentenced, through the work of civilian and military police as well.  But

13     those who were involved would know better about it.

14        Q.   And was your complaint that the party was being blamed for the

15     inactions of these municipal organs, or was it something else?

16        A.   There was no one I could complain to.  Communications were

17     non-existent.  Both as the president of the party and as a human being,

18     since our policy was not what was presented, I wanted to show to the

19     citizens what the position really is, my position and the position of the

20     Serbian Democratic Party, so that every citizen would know what our

21     position is.

22        Q.   And which individuals in the municipality did you want replaced?

23        A.   It was the set that came to power before the war, Stakic,

24     Mico Kovacevic.  I can't remember who else was in the board.  And the

25     officials themselves, they were not such a problem, maybe initially; but

Page 15273

 1     the police and Simo Drljaca, those were the problems.  Simo Drljaca

 2     didn't want to step down as the chief.  It took some time for that.  And

 3     only through the assistance of the president of the Assembly,

 4     Momcilo Krajisnik, who came to visit to one of the meetings where we were

 5     trying to force Drljaca to step down, only then, through his authority,

 6     we succeeded in having them replaced.

 7        Q.   When was that?

 8        A.   I think it was in early 1993.  The new officials who came in, I

 9     remember everything functioned for three months properly with morning

10     briefings as a means of seeing what was done or what wasn't.  But then

11     after a while they started acting wilfully and in their own interests,

12     and we tried to replace them.  And, finally, I simply had to step down.

13     I think I'm the only one who stepped down.  Everybody else was trying to

14     fight to get some political position, but ... maybe I was stupid.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MS. PIDWELL:  If Your Honours will just bear with me for one

17     moment.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             MS. PIDWELL:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

20     questions.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Cross-examination -- yes, cross-examination.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Miskovic.

24        A.   Good day.

25        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic.  We've met already.

Page 15274

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I'll be putting questions to you on behalf of

 3     Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.  But since the two of us speak the same language,

 4     before you answer my question, please wait for a while in order to make

 5     it possible for the interpreters to interpret what we're saying.

 6        A.   Yes, I understand.

 7        Q.   I believe there was something that you wanted to add at the end

 8     of the Prosecutor's questions.

 9        A.   Well, no, nothing specific.  I wanted to say that after I've

10     submitted my request to resign, I also asked to be put back to the

11     position where I was before, but I never received a response.  It's just

12     something that got lost in the administration, I guess.  Nothing special.

13        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, in your direct examination on Friday, you were

14     asked by the Prosecutor about wartime police stations --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   -- and their organisation.  The existence of the wartime police

17     station was something that was pursuant to the Law on Internal Affairs of

18     the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19        A.   I did explain that.  That was all in keeping with the

20     documentations and laws that were in effect during the existence of the

21     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I also said that they were

22     formed in the 1970s than there was training conducted there, both oral

23     and practical.  I explained all that, because it involved people who were

24     doing something else, normally.  And it was only their wartime assignment

25     that they should have been doing through the police station.

Page 15275

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D159 on the

 2     screen.  It is under tab 6, Zupljanin Defence folder.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you zoom in a little, please?

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a document from 1991 dealing with recruitment and the

 6     organisation of the wartime functioning of the MUP.  It's a document from

 7     the Ministry of Interior, the Socialist Republic.

 8        A.   Yes, the joint authorities.

 9        Q.   It also mentions some sort of unit files that need to be filled

10     in.

11        A.   Yes.  I was engaged on the basis of this.  I was commander of the

12     reserve police station for three months, because my wartime assignment

13     was to be commander of the reserve police station, and the police force

14     was mixed at the time when I was engaged in 1991, and the police station

15     was called Prijedor 2.

16             So before I withdrew from the position of the commander of the

17     reserve police station to become the president of the party, Prijedor Dva

18     was a mixed police station, and it continued to operate that way.

19        Q.   The Prosecutor also asked you about the strength of the police

20     force in Prijedor.  You answered that question, and you mentioned the

21     presence of the army in the area of Prijedor.  Do you know how many

22     soldiers there were, including the Territorial Defence, in the beginning

23     of 1991 in the area of Prijedor municipality?

24        A.   No, I don't know the number of army troops or the police

25     personnel.

Page 15276

 1        Q.   The Prosecutor also asked you a series of questions about the

 2     operation of the municipality on the eve of the conflict.  I would like

 3     to ask you about the blockade of the work of the Assembly.  It was not a

 4     result of any SDS action, was it?

 5        A.   Yes, I explained that in detail to the Prosecutor.

 6             It was the SDA party that prevented the Assembly from operating,

 7     and that began even before I became president of the party.  When I

 8     became president of the party, I named myself head of the committee

 9     inquiring into that; and when I did that, within half an hour, we managed

10     to divide up 50 per cent of all the official posts, and the remaining

11     50 per cent of the posts remained for the next day.

12             However, the SDA leadership blocked the work of this committee,

13     so even this effort was prevented.  But I explained all that to the

14     Prosecutor when she asked me.

15             But that was the source of information that I had.  It was not

16     second-hand information.  I wanted to be briefly at the source to deal

17     with this issue.

18        Q.   The Prosecutor also asked you about Simo Drljaca and his

19     engagement, if I can call it that, in 1991.  You said that he was heading

20     the so-called interest community for education.

21             In 1991, he did not have any official position in the

22     municipality, apart from that, the education part?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   He did not have any entourage, any body-guards, service cars, or

25     anything?

Page 15277

 1        A.   He worked on the education board for secondary and primary

 2     education, and he worked together with Mr. Babic.  He was on very good

 3     terms with him.  And he was later recommended by Babic to become a member

 4     of the party, and he would be placed in charge of internal supervision

 5     within the party.  Until then, he had no other position.

 6        Q.   I'm talking about 1991.

 7        A.   No, no.  No, in 1991, no.

 8        Q.   Perhaps you didn't understand me.  I asked you if he had any

 9     body-guards, any security detail, in 1991.

10        A.   No.  In 1991, he was just a member of the education board.  Even

11     I did not have any other function until 11th September 1991, when I

12     became president of the party.

13        Q.   The Prosecutor also asked you a series of questions about those

14     meetings of the SDS, starting from the time when you became its

15     president, and you went through these meetings in great detail.

16             Now, in all these talks at these SDS meetings that you chaired,

17     there was no talk at any point, was there, about any violence against

18     Muslims, expelling them, or any discrimination about -- against other

19     ethnicities?

20        A.   From all I said and from all the documents, it is quite clear

21     that there was not a single statement, not a single action, that would

22     speak to a discriminatory attitude.  On the contrary, you will see that

23     through all these events the Serbs were only anxious about preventing the

24     sort of suffering that was inflicted on the Serbs in the past, and that's

25     why we acted to prevent that.  And we had constructive talks with all the

Page 15278

 1     parties.  And we kept repeating - and thank God there are many people

 2     still alive who can confirm this - that all our activities were geared at

 3     that, avoiding conflict.

 4             At one point, I said, Just give me any reason why we should do

 5     this.  We were afraid of opening old wounds.  Many generations by then

 6     had grown up together.  They were friends, they intermarried, they went

 7     to youth labour drives together in major construction projects.  And

 8     unlike the immediate post-war generation, which still felt those old

 9     wounds very bitterly - I don't know if the Trial Chamber knows this, but

10     only from the area of Kozara many civilians ended up in the concentration

11     camp of Jasenovac, and children were placed in a children's concentration

12     camp in Jastrebarsko - that is the old history of which I wanted to give

13     you an overview and you didn't let me.  And those were the fears and

14     reasons why we were trying to avoid a new confrontation, to -- we were

15     afraid that all the wounds would be opened and all the achievements in

16     the past 50 years would be ruined.

17             And if you only look at 1967, 1971, 1974, and 1991, you will see

18     that all these events are interconnected.  Everything has its cause an

19     effect.

20        Q.   I have to ask you to slow down a little.

21        A.   Well, you have to remind me all the time because I keep

22     forgetting.

23        Q.   One part was not recorded, when you said that the entire Serbian

24     population from Kozara was deported into --

25        A.   Yes, that was their wretched fate.  Apart from the people who

Page 15279

 1     formed the 1st Partisan Brigade, many civilians remained in their

 2     villages and hamlets from Gradiska to Kostajnica.  All these civilians

 3     ended up in the concentration camp of Jasenovac.  The children from

 4     Kozara ended up in the Jastrebarsko concentration camp also in Croatia,

 5     like Jasenovac.

 6        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, will you please slow down.  When you were about to

 7     tell us about this historical background and all the fears that the old

 8     sentiments might be awakened ...

 9        A.   Yes.  And that's why it was our policy to do everything possible

10     to prevent a new conflict, a new confrontation, knowing that it was

11     pregnant with consequences.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness

13     65 ter 687?  It has not been exhibited -- or it has been exhibited, but I

14     don't have the exhibit number.

15             Just a moment, Your Honours, the Prosecutor showed this exhibit

16     some time ago.

17             Sorry, 65 ter 587.  P1670, or 17.

18        Q.   You spoke about this a moment ago with the Prosecutor.

19        A.   Yes, it's from the radio.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page.

21     ERN number is 0100-8950.

22        Q.   See this paragraph, before the word "reporter," begins with the

23     word "thus."

24             "... that was yet another proof that the middle letter D in the

25     name of our party really means something and that we wanted to eliminate

Page 15280

 1     any surprises in this manner.  Our intention was to break the ongoing

 2     blockade around the division of power and the deliberate drawing of this

 3     region into chaos.  We had promised that we would not allow these people

 4     to be naive and outsmarted for the third time in a row ..."

 5             That's what you were saying, that your whole action was geared

 6     at --

 7        A.   Prevention.  And this reference to the middle letter D, since it

 8     was a democratic party, I want to emphasise that we acted in that spirit,

 9     in the spirit of democracy.

10        Q.   The Prosecutor also asked you about the Plan A and Plan B that

11     were part of this action?

12        A.   That was prepared and executed.

13        Q.   Now before the walkout of the Serbia deputies from the Assembly,

14     because they were outvoted, the SDS never planned or carried out any

15     actions.  Your eventual action was, in fact, a reaction to what was going

16     on in the Assembly?

17        A.   Everyone knows what happened in the Assembly of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We have already been through this.  There was a

19     referendum among the Serbian People concerning a referendum of the

20     Muslims and Croats.  No steps had been planned at that point.  Everything

21     followed its normal course until the moment when the real danger began to

22     loom that Bosnia-Herzegovina would separate itself from Yugoslavia, and

23     the Serbs were very much against that, very much against a cessation.

24     Than is the main reason why the leadership of the party prepared the

25     Plans A and Plan B, and each of them dealt with a specific scenario.

Page 15281

 1             And it says very clearly: In the event of danger, only then would

 2     these measures kick in.  Otherwise, we would follow a democratic course

 3     of action and work normally and take all the steps to achieve a peaceful

 4     solution.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure, perhaps

 6     now is the time for the break?

 7             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, this is,

 8     yes.  20 minutes.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Before Mr. Krgovic resumes, the Chamber is reminded

12     that it has not yet resolved the matter of the -- how much time is going

13     to be needed for the Witness Brown who is scheduled to appear within a

14     little more than a fortnight, and we are wondering whether the parties

15     are in a position at the -- say, within ten minutes, in the last ten

16     minutes of today, to further address us on that question so we know what

17     the -- what is likely to happen.

18             You would appreciate that if any adjustment is going to be made

19     to his appearance, an earlier decision has to be made.  In that sense, we

20     would appreciate if the parties are in a position to address us, as I

21     said, about ten minutes before we break today, or, failing that, first

22     thing in the morning.

23             Yes, Mr. Krgovic, please continue.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, let us continue.  Just let me, once more, remind

Page 15282

 1     you - and that goes for me as well, because I also speak fast - to remind

 2     you to slow down.

 3        A.   Yes, just you remind me occasionally.

 4        Q.   Before the break, we discussed the measures taken at the

 5     municipal level in Prijedor as a reaction to the events in the Assembly

 6     and the down-voting of the deputies of -- of Serb ethnicity in the

 7     Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 8             From the moment you became president of the party and later when

 9     you spoke to Mr. Karadzic at these meetings, and I see that you reported

10     to the Municipal Assembly about that, there was never any agreement to

11     take action until the moment when the existence of the Serb People in an

12     area should be endangered; right?

13        A.   At the meetings of the Main Board to which I was invited as

14     president of the party, I can say that there was never talk about

15     intolerance to any other people, and that can be corroborated by the

16     minutes.  Never.  At no point in time.

17             The reaction of the Serb deputies in the Assembly of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina was to the aspirations of the other two peoples to

19     bring about the cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Yugoslavia.  In that

20     context, the Serb representatives were afraid for the biological survival

21     of the Serb People.  And then, as a consequence, a Serb Assembly

22     separated from that Assembly, and then there was also the territorial

23     organisation of the Krajina.  That was a period of difficult

24     communication.

25             Later, the procedure was -- and I spoke about Variants A and B.

Page 15283

 1     They were the reaction to possible problems that could occur later with

 2     regard to the problems connected with the cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 3     and the non-acceptance of the Serb People of that cessation and their

 4     wish to remain within Yugoslavia.  The assessment was probably made in

 5     the top echelons of the party that to this could bring about conflict.

 6     Then two variants were worked out, and the presidents of the

 7     Municipal Boards were to act in accordance, when the survival of the

 8     Serb People in their municipality would be in danger.  And it was

 9     explained in that context.

10        Q.   You said, Mr. Miskovic, that one of the decisions of the

11     Serb People in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to carry out

12     a plebescite about remaining in Yugoslavia; right?

13        A.   Because of the decision of the Serb representatives to separate

14     from the work of the Assembly for the reasons stated, namely, the wish of

15     the other two peoples to bring about the cessation of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16     and that's why the decision was adopted -- or could you repeat the

17     question?

18        Q.   I asked you about the plebescite of the Serb People.

19        A.   Well, to check what the Serb People felt, whether they would back

20     it up, they -- there was a -- so there was a plebescite which was

21     conducted by means of which the opinion or the attitude of the Serb

22     People was checked, whether they wanted to secede or remain within

23     Yugoslavia.

24        Q.   Answering the Prosecutor's question with regard to the

25     intercepted conversation with Mr. Tadic [as interpreted], you said that

Page 15284

 1     in the territory of Prijedor municipality, 60 per cent of the population

 2     are Serbs and that this information differs from the information

 3     contained in the results of the census in 1991?

 4        A.   Yes, that's a fact.  But you must bear in mind that after the

 5     official census, the share of the ethnicities was inadequate, because

 6     8 per cent of the population stated that they were Yugoslavs.  And out of

 7     these 8 per cent, 80 to 90 per cent were actually Serbs.  Bearing in mind

 8     that fact, I said before that the actual situation was not as reflected

 9     in the census results.  But this new census which was carried out by

10     going from house to house actually confirmed these assumptions that

11     Prijedor had a Serb majority, and I informed the president of the party

12     accordingly, and I pointed out to them the newly -- the new situation,

13     based on the newly established state of affairs.  And I had my people

14     check whether the constitution allowed for additional steps.

15             So nothing was done rashly, if this is enough.

16             MS. PIDWELL:  Just one intervention in the transcript:  It

17     records Mr. Krgovic stating at line -- page 58 line 1:

18             "There was an intercepted conversation with Mr. Tadic."

19             And I'm just wondering if you could clarify that because I didn't

20     play him any conversations with Mr. Tadic.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, what I asked you about, I spoke about intercepted

23     conversations with Mr. Karadzic; correct?

24        A.   Yes, yes, I explained as much to the OTP.  And I explained once

25     more in detail.

Page 15285

 1        Q.   And further on in that intercepted conversation, Simovic is

 2     mentioned.  Do you remember the position of Mr. Simovic at that time, the

 3     vice-prime minister?

 4        A.   I don't remember.  But I know that he was a lawyer, and that's

 5     why I tasked him with these things, because he knows these things.  It is

 6     his field of expertise, and I wanted him to provide answers.

 7             So we wanted to check whether it was possible under the

 8     constitution and laws and regulations whether this was possible, and the

 9     right man to do that was Simovic.  And it will be clear to anybody who

10     reads through that.  Of course, I mean the one reading these texts must

11     be a -- an expert, not a layperson.  And I don't know which position he

12     held.

13        Q.   The Prosecutor asked you a series of questions about the shadow

14     cabinet which was established at one point.

15             As far as I understood your answer, this appointment of people,

16     the Crisis Staff and -- or to call it the shadow cabinet, was no secret.

17     There were even jokes among Muslims and Serbs because everybody knew who

18     was in witch position; right?

19        A.   Well, it was half-public and half-secret, but hardly anything was

20     hidden.  I can only speak about what I took part in.  We really wanted to

21     find adequate solutions.  But we also stated clearly:  Where we couldn't

22     come up with an adequate solution, we would have to provide a reserve

23     solution.  And that was Variant B, which was in force for Prijedor

24     municipality.  It was, again, in line with the instructions that were in

25     effect for all municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 15286

 1             And about jokes, yes, there were jokes around.  I like to -- I'm

 2     detached from everything.  That's my nature.

 3        Q.   And this shadow cabinet, was -- its existence was used in talks

 4     with the SDA.  You said to them that unless a solution is found that you

 5     will establish this shadow cabinet?

 6        A.   No, we didn't speak to them about that.  We only said that a

 7     solution to all the problems in and around Prijedor must be found.  We

 8     went into the relations that existed formally about all the traumas, and

 9     they knew all that.  But only -- I only reminded them of that, to have

10     everybody understand that things were serious so that the problems about

11     which I have already spoken today should not aggravate.  And I said that

12     people intermarried, they worked together, and so on and so forth.  So

13     there were friendships in place and very good relations, partly.  So in

14     order to avoid destroying all that, and for the young generation who

15     haven't lived through the Second World War and didn't have any blood on

16     their hands, should be spared of -- of chaos once more in history.

17        Q.   Do you know if the Muslim side, the SDA, had any plans of their

18     own, something like your Variants A and B?

19        A.   I cannot say that with certainty because I'm not acquainted with

20     their plans, but I know I heard from military circles that they have

21     units ready, that they are arming themselves, that they have weapons.

22     That's what I heard.  But I never heard as much from them.  It isn't

23     any -- it isn't the information that I received directly from the other

24     side.

25             At the time, I thought that military security knew everything,

Page 15287

 1     that they were on top of it all.  And, actually, they were, because they

 2     had their informants in all ethnic groups.

 3        Q.   As far as I understood you, you didn't hear from the Muslim side

 4     that they have all that, but you got all that information from the army,

 5     that there are such plans and such units and so on?

 6        A.   I said that I didn't receive information directly, through my

 7     contacts.  But I did hear it from military representatives that they are

 8     armed.  Actually, both sides.  And that they have snipers, both sides,

 9     actually.  And all citizens had heard of it.  And that some people would

10     be slaughtered, this day and other, on the following day.  But this isn't

11     anything that I was in a position to know even then, let alone today,

12     after 20 years.

13        Q.   Just a correction to the transcript:  When you said that they had

14     their structures and their weapons, you were referring to the Muslim and

15     the Croat side; right?

16        A.   Yes, yes.  But I did say that the man Slavko Ecimovic commanded

17     one of those units, the Green Berets.  He was a Croat, but he commanded a

18     Muslim unit.  I sent Dr. Sadikovic to inform him that I wanted to talk to

19     him so that nothing silly happens.  Afterward when he was taken prisoner

20     and I asked Zeljaja to talk to him, which was approved, and I asked him

21     what came into him and what he had done, he only answered, Well, I know

22     you, and I know what are you like.  Well, he should have listened to me

23     when I first spoke to him, but possibly my assumptions were not

24     altogether correct.

25        Q.   On page 63, line 16, it was entered in the transcript to -- that

Page 15288

 1     you're referring to two sides, and I just wanted to make clear that the

 2     two sides you meant were the Muslims and the Croats.

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, you mentioned in your testimony the date when you

 5     left to go to the meeting at the SJB of Prijedor on the 29th of April and

 6     that there was a problem with an order that arrived at the station.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 1D150.

 8     That is tab - let me just see - tab 5 of the Zupljanin Defence binder.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the microphone of the accused please be

10     switched off.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us enlarge ...

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a document issued by

14     Delimustafic.  And we can see here that the Presidency of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina made a decision - and then several paragraphs - that

16     complete and massive roadblocks shall be set up along all roads on which

17     JNA units are expected to pull out.

18             And then item 2:

19             "Block the wider surroundings of military facilities from which

20     materiel and equipment are likely to be taken out and -- and they shall

21     be guarded by the units of the TO of the Republic of BH and the MUP."

22             And 3:

23             "Unannounced convoys of former JNA units and convoys without MUP

24     escort shall not be allowed to leave the barracks or communicate within

25     the territory of the Republic BH."

Page 15289

 1             And under 4:

 2             "Accelerate planning and start combat activities on the entire

 3     territory of the Republic of BiH and coordinate these with the TO staff

 4     of the region, the district, and the Republic of BiH."

 5             And it goes on to speak about the protection of the population.

 6        Q.   This is what basically arrived at the SJB, something with this

 7     content, that MUP units shall be blocked and that preparations for

 8     fighting JNA units that were starting to pull out of BiH shall be

 9     launched?

10        A.   I read this order, and what I can say is that at the meeting that

11     I attended that took place within the premises of Prijedor MUP and where

12     Mirza Mujadzic, SDA president, was also present, and the president of the

13     municipality whose name I keep forgetting but it's Muhamed Cehajic, a man

14     who was the communicating officer -- a communications officer within MUP

15     Prijedor arrived with a dispatch and he stood there in the middle of the

16     room and read out the dispatch to all of us.

17             Present there were all police members, in other words, this was

18     mixed police complement, and we all suddenly gasped because there we are

19     discussing issues and then suddenly there is a very explicit, direct

20     order, with tasks specified.  And there were already experiences from

21     Slovenia and Croatia where soldiers were withdrawing from barracks, and

22     images, let's say, from Split, where a soldier who it later turned out

23     was a Macedonian was being strangled in a tank.  It was a shock for all

24     of us.  It took us a few seconds before things sort of settled down, and

25     then there was commotion among us officers there.  Discussions started

Page 15290

 1     breaking out.  But, in short, we managed to conclude this meeting.

 2             I, at the time, had no idea - nobody had who was present there -

 3     that something like this can be expected.  However, when we received the

 4     dispatch, it was a signal to us that something must be done in order to

 5     prevent escalation and to prevent uncontrolled behaviour of either

 6     individuals or groups.  And, fortunately, at least for that period of

 7     time, the takeover of power succeeded in stopping conflicts in Prijedor.

 8             The situation was calm until the 30th of May, when the Muslim

 9     forces attempted, again, to attack Prijedor, after crossing the

10     Sana River, and changing the situation there.  The shooting ensued,

11     Slavko Ecimovic was arrested, and, as I've mentioned, later on, I talked

12     with him in the barracks.  But that's how things started.

13             And, yes, this caused all the meetings and activation of

14     Variant B.  I already explained that while the OTP was putting questions

15     to me.

16        Q.   Let me show you another document, Mr. Miskovic.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D151.  That's

18     Zupljanin Defence binder, tab --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters failed to hear the tab number.

20     Apologies.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 8.  Can we please enlarge

22     this for the witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I forgot to add:  The signature in

24     the previous document, it said Delimustafic, but I was told at the time

25     it was Doko, Jerko Doko.  But the essence of the dispatch is not in

Page 15291

 1     question.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's see this enlarged, please,

 3     because I want to see -- oh, yes.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it has been enlarged.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   What I read to you and the document, the content, is it -- it's

 7     identical, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   There is a document in front of you, commander of BH army,

10     Colonel Hasan Efendic signed, where Mr. Doko was the minister.  It's the

11     identical content of this document and the document I had shown you

12     before by Delimustafic?

13        A.   Yes, yes, it's the same request.

14             Maybe it is the same because this was a decision by the

15     BH Presidency.  They were the authority.  At least they should have been

16     the authorities.

17        Q.   When you mean the Presidency, you mean the rump Presidency?

18        A.   Yes, that's why the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

19     established, that's why the plebescite was held, that's why the Variants

20     B and B were drafted, precisely in order to make sure that such

21     unpredictable things would not happen.

22        Q.   I apologise, my question is not on the record.

23             What I said was:  This was without Serb representatives.  It's

24     the rump Presidency without the Serb representatives?

25        A.   Yes, that's the situation at the time.

Page 15292

 1        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, after attending the meeting with the president --

 2     with the representatives of the police and the army, they also knew about

 3     the dispatch that there was order to enter the conflict against JNA; they

 4     knew about it, didn't they?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know.  I know that upon my arrival I was shown

 6     this, and during the conversations with the prosecutor's office in

 7     Sarajevo I was shown a dispatch that arrived one day prior about which I

 8     didn't know anything also --

 9        Q.   You didn't understand me.  When you received the information and

10     when you went to the meeting with Serb representatives up there in the

11     barracks, then you informed them about it, or did they already know about

12     it?

13        A.   They all knew about it.  I -- I was the only one who didn't know.

14     They knew about it.  They were all up there.  It was only me missing, and

15     then I came.  Everybody was already seated up there in the barracks.

16     Arsic, Zeljaja, Simo, Kuruzovic, all of them.  The leadership.  Stakic

17     also.

18        Q.   And it was at that meeting that the assessment was made that the

19     situation has reached a crucial moment, that something has to be done in

20     order to prevent conflicts, avoid conflicts with the other side?

21        A.   The main reason for the takeover of power was precisely that;

22     namely, the suggestions that one could see in this dispatch.  And that's

23     how it was explained at the time.  The decision was reached because of

24     that, to take over the power, deadlines made for final decisions,

25     assignments made for Territorial Defence and police for the takeover of

Page 15293

 1     power and for the purpose of preventing the activities that one can find

 2     enumerated in the dispatch.  That was the reason.  Up until that moment,

 3     it was only on paper.

 4        Q.   It was an autonomous decision reached by the representatives of

 5     the Serbian People in the municipality of Prijedor.  You didn't get any

 6     instructions from the leadership of the party or from the leadership

 7     otherwise.  It was a decision reached at the local level, and it was

 8     prompted by the said events?

 9        A.   Well, no.  Nothing was reached independently.  You knew -- you

10     know about the existence of Variants B and A.  So the Territorial Defence

11     had been formed.  We knew who was at the head of the Territorial Defence

12     and MUP.  We made sure that we can prevent any threat to the

13     Serbian People in the area.  It applied to all the municipalities, not

14     only to Prijedor.  Since these threats existed in the dispatch, we have

15     acted in accordance with Variant B, namely, doing anything that's

16     necessary to prevent violence.

17        Q.   But you -- you didn't get a specific instruction on the

18     30th or around that date:  You need to do such and such a thing.

19        A.   No, no, no.  We just activated what existed on paper already.

20     Because the conditions were fulfilled with the arrival of the dispatch,

21     showing that there was a threat in the municipality of Prijedor.

22             This is not a threat only to the Serbian People, according to my

23     reading.  We were the representative of the Serbian People, yes, but our

24     goal was to prevent any confrontation and to prevent tragedy for all the

25     ethnic groups in the area.  And it functioned for 30 days until the

Page 15294

 1     attack against Prijedor.  There were no incidents, no conflicts, nothing.

 2     Like in any town, there were Muslim and Croats' bars and other shops in

 3     Prijedor that were not touched.  One can prove that.  But later on, there

 4     was an escalation which had its consequences.  But that's a different

 5     story.

 6        Q.   Just one more question related to this:  Do you know that one of

 7     the results of this dispatch in the territory of the, let's say,

 8     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was ordered to mobilize the reserve

 9     police forces and putting them under combat readiness?

10        A.   By whom?

11        Q.   Well, on both sides.  Both parties ordered reserve police

12     stations to be mobilized.

13        A.   I didn't understand your question.

14        Q.   Do you know that, on the 29th of April --

15        A.   Yeah, yeah, the day before.

16        Q.   -- that it was ordered that the full police complement should be

17     mobilized, not only in the municipality of Prijedor but in all Krajina

18     municipalities?

19        A.   No.  I thought I explained it.  I may not have been clear enough.

20     We acted according to Variant B, to Plan B, which involves every

21     municipality in Bosnia.  And individual municipalities made assessments

22     according to their needs.  Everything was regulated on paper, but no

23     measures were taken before there was an obvious threat.  And once the

24     threat was obvious, measures were taken to prevent tragedy in the area,

25     in this specific case, in the municipality of Prijedor.  But it was --

Page 15295

 1     the same applied for all municipalities that were within the B Variant

 2     conditions as well as for the other, for the A Variant conditions.

 3        Q.   On that day, on the 29th of April, when you were in the

 4     Prijedor SJB, Hasan Telundzic, was still there?

 5        A.   Yes, he was still presiding the meeting there as the chief of

 6     MUP.  He was presiding the meeting.  The rest of us were guests; myself,

 7     Mirza Mujadzic as the SDA president, and president of the Municipal

 8     Assembly, Muhamed Cehajic.

 9        Q.   Prosecutor also showed you document P652.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please put that up on the

11     screen.

12        Q.   Mr. Drljaca, who, at the time, already took over as the chief, he

13     is here sending to the Banja Luka CSB a dispatch containing, let's say,

14     two information.  The first one is that ten police stations with

15     1.587 policemen were mobilized.

16        A.   Yes, 1.587.

17        Q.   And, second, no one failed to respond or avoided work duty.

18     That's the first part of the dispatch.

19             And in the second part it is stated that in accordance with the

20     conclusion of the Executive Board of the Serbian Assembly of Prijedor

21     municipality, control was seized over facilities.  And then there's an

22     explanation of how it took place.

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   We can see "in reference to," and your dispatch, and then there's

25     a number.  It's in reference to a dispatch issued on 29th of April.  But

Page 15296

 1     you haven't seen that?

 2        A.   Yes.  I didn't know anything about that, but it's related to the

 3     issue of the takeover of power and other problems.  But I didn't know.

 4     It was difficult for me to find this out, when I found out about that.

 5        Q.   There's another -- there's a dispatch that I'm going to show you.

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is document 2D-1943.  It's tab 7

 7     of the Zupljanin binder.

 8             I apologise, 2D02-1943.

 9             I apologise, 2D03-1943.

10        Q.   Sir --

11        A.   Could you please enlarge this for me?  It's rather illegible.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please enlarge this.

13        Q.   This is a dispatch sent to all the security stations, to all, to

14     the chief, on the 29th of April --

15             MS. PIDWELL: [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry, but

16     my -- the English version states that it is sent to the security stations

17     in Bosanski Petrovac, Bosansko Grahovo, Drvar, Kupres, Teslic.  It

18     doesn't necessarily say to all of the SJBs in the area of the Krajina.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It must be a language problem.  It

20     says SJB, that is, public security station, to all, to the chief, and

21     then it names other separate addressees in the second line.

22        Q.   Could you please look, Witness, tell us, whether it says:  SJB,

23     to all, to the chief, and then individual SJBs are named.

24        A.   It says clearly:

25             "... public security station - to all - to the chief."

Page 15297

 1             And then in the second line, it says, again:

 2             "Public security service, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosansko Grahovo,

 3     Drvar, Kupres, Teslic, to the chief."

 4             "To the president ..."

 5        Q.   I'm not interested in the presidents of these Serbian

 6     municipalities that are named.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, are you satisfied that we are looking

 8     at the same document?

 9             MS. PIDWELL:  I am satisfied that we're looking at the same

10     document.  I'm not satisfied that the meaning of the words is what is

11     being portrayed.  But it may be a matter of interpretation and the

12     wondering of the Serbian version as well as the English.  I can't really

13     assist because I don't understand the nuances between the languages.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I can make it clearer with the help

16     of the witness, although we've already heard evidence about this.

17             When it says "SJB - to all," it means that it's addressed to all

18     the public security stations in the area of -- of a CSB.

19        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, at the time when you were working as a policeman,

20     when you would receive a dispatch from the centre of security services

21     and when it's addressed "SJB - to all," does that mean to all the public

22     security stations under the supervision of that centre?

23        A.   Yes, to all those covered by the sender.

24        Q.   And these stations, Bosanski Petrovac, Bosansko Grahovo, Drvar,

25     Kupres, Teslic, at the time, they were not under the CSB Banja Luka.

Page 15298

 1     They only joined later, and that's why they are named separately?

 2        A.   I don't know about that.  I can't tell you anything.

 3        Q.   If you don't know, I won't insist.

 4             Mr. Zupljanin repeats here, although we can only see that the

 5     signature says "Chief" but we don't if he really signed it.  Anyway, this

 6     dispatch repeats the order sent by Delimustafic.  It says, in the

 7     introduction, the minister of the interior of the Republic of BH

 8     reference, et cetera, et cetera, and then Delimustafic's dispatch is

 9     literally rendered.

10        A.   Yes.  It begins, I think, on page 1, and then continues on

11     page 2.  Here it says:

12             "Speed up plan and begin combat activities."

13        Q.   Now, regarding this dispatch, on the following page you see the

14     measures recommended by the CSB, the Security Services Centre.  Look at

15     page 2.

16        A.   It's not here.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 2 in Serbian.

18             And could we zoom in on the first paragraph.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hardly see.

20             "Carry out a full and comprehensive mobilization of the

21     active-duty and reserve police force and all the other employees in

22     public security stations."

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So one of the measures ordered by the CSB is to carry out a full

25     and comprehensive mobilization of the active-duty and reserve police and

Page 15299

 1     all the other employees in public security stations.

 2             In item 2, it says:

 3             "Go for full combat readiness."

 4             Can we now go back to 5652.

 5        A.   You mean those provisional measures?

 6             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I meant P652.

 7        Q.   Mr. Drljaca says here ten police stations have been mobilized.

 8     He indicates their strength.  And there were no cases of non-response.

 9     So this is the request for mobilization, the order for mobilization that

10     arrived on Telundzic's desk?

11        A.   I can't be very sure.  I think so.

12        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I'm asking you these questions precisely because

13     you said you were confused when the Prosecutor showed you these

14     dispatches.  And since you hadn't seen the dispatch on which the reply of

15     Mr. Drljaca was based, I wanted to show you this dispatch to which

16     Drljaca was actually replying.  It concerns the full mobilization of all

17     the police complements of all public security stations in the territory

18     of the centre.  That's the dispatch from the 29th.

19        A.   Well, I don't know.  When I saw reference, dispatch dated

20     28th April, I was sorry I wasn't informed about it.  And I realized when

21     I came to that meeting in the barracks that everybody was already very

22     well informed.  I was the only one who was not privy to it.  And I still

23     feel left out after 13 years.

24        Q.   It's just missing from the record that when -- you meant when you

25     saw this dispatch from Delimustafic that the -- the contents is the same?

Page 15300

 1        A.   [No interpretation]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter does not understand the

 3     witness.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I will ask you a leading question to deal with this.

 6             When you are saying that you were not aware of these dispatches,

 7     you are talking about Doko's dispatch or, rather, Delimustafic's dispatch

 8     that was just shown to you?

 9        A.   As far as Doko's dispatch is concerned, I knew about it, I was

10     there when it was read out at the meeting at the police.  Now, who signed

11     it, I don't know.  I knew all the time that it was from Doko, and I

12     thought it was the dispatch related to the previous period.  And it was

13     very hard for me to feel that I am out of the loop.  Everyone else was

14     informed.  I was the only one who didn't know about it.  After so many

15     years, I still feel left out.

16        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, you described that the takeover was peaceful, and,

17     at that time, on the 30th of April and in the days that followed, there

18     were no skirmishes, there were no armed clashes until the moment of the

19     attack.

20        A.   Not only armed skirmishes.  There were no verbal clashes either,

21     as I explained here in the courtroom.  I met with Cehajic, who was

22     president of the municipality until then.  I talked to him.  He was

23     unhappy, but still, we had a normal conversation.  I tried to present my

24     arguments and reasons.  He was unable to accept them.  His vanity was

25     hurt.  And I can understand all that.  But, at any rate, I thought then

Page 15301

 1     that our solution was much more painless, and it really was, until the

 2     attack on Prijedor on the 30th of May.  There was no incident, no verbal

 3     clash, no armed incident.  Nothing.  Until the attack on Prijedor.  You

 4     can see that from the documents.  You can see that if you speak to people

 5     from the area of all ethnicities.  There was no conflict.

 6        Q.   Then continuing to reply to the Prosecutor's questions, you

 7     talked about the talks with the representatives of Kozarac, and you

 8     mentioned your involvement in those negotiations.  You mentioned some

 9     other participants.  Those were talks at the local level, in Prijedor;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.  These talks were held at the level of the municipality of

12     Prijedor, and the basic purpose was as I described:  To find jointly some

13     solutions to avoid confrontation, because, as I saw it, there was no

14     reason for confrontation in the municipality.  And I told them, Give me

15     one reason why we should have a conflict.

16        Q.   And there was nobody from the outside, outside Prijedor, at those

17     talks?

18        A.   No.  We dealt with it on our own.  It was our problem.  We were

19     looking for solutions.  We thought we would find solutions in contacts

20     with people, in talks.  Even before the takeover I had tried to establish

21     these contacts, because the Assembly was unable to meet, because it was

22     paralysed, because tensions were rising.  I asked my Muslim deputy to go

23     and talk to people, to defuse tensions, to avoid conflicts.  However, he

24     shirked from that all the time, and I asked him straightforwardly, How

25     come that I have the courage to go to Muslim communities and you don't

Page 15302

 1     have the courage to go to Serb communities?

 2             I can only assume that we were briefed differently.  We had been

 3     given different platforms.  My only aim was to avoid that -- that the

 4     fate of the Serbian People from 1914 and 1941 not repeat itself.  That

 5     was the main motivation of my generation, all the people who were born in

 6     1945, like me.

 7        Q.   Part of your answer does not seem to be on record.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   The last bit, when you said that the wounds were still fresh,

11     that you are the generation of 1945.  That part is missing.

12             Mr. Miskovic, you had a special interest in -- in keeping peace

13     in -- in those talks in Kozarac because you spent part of your youth in

14     Kozarac?

15        A.   My general commitment at that time and always is to have a

16     peaceful conversation with every individual, every group, anyone who

17     could contribute to a peaceful solution.  I know it's difficult from this

18     perspective to understand what kind of times these were, but by that time

19     we had seen wars in Croatia, in Slovenia, the psychology of killing, it

20     was a general psychoses that everyone lived in their own way.

21             And at that time, in order to avoid the repetition of 1941 and

22     the concentration camps and the concentration camps for children and the

23     massacres on Kozara Mountain, to avoid putting salt and reopening these

24     old wounds and to preserve all that has been achieved -- had been

25     achieved over the 50 years in terms of mutual peaceful co-existence with

Page 15303

 1     all the mixed marriages, the mixed friendships.  And a member of my

 2     family, one of my brothers-in-law, is a Muslim.  I spent my childhood

 3     there, of course, but I had also tried, through my commander, to do the

 4     same in his local area.  I brought their people through the check-points

 5     to talk together.  Kadinic [phoen] always said it's not the right time.

 6     Maybe now he can explain why it was not the right time.  To me, it was

 7     always the right time.  And you can see it from all of my actions and all

 8     my words.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see the witness is

10     very emotional at the moment.  I think he's crying.  Perhaps we should

11     adjourn now.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very difficult for me to talk

13     about these things.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I agree, Mr. Krgovic.  Thank you.

15             Mr. Miskovic, we -- your testimony obviously is not complete, but

16     we are near the time where we would adjourn for the day.  We have some

17     administrative matters with which to deal, so I'm going to excuse you at

18     this point, and we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19             The usher will escort you from the courtroom.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm really sorry I got

21     so emotional.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, are you or other counsel from the OTP

25     present in court able to assist us further with the timing question which

Page 15304

 1     was raised by Mr. Zecevic who, of course, is not with us today.  But

 2     you -- you were present in court, if memory serves, and you remember his

 3     concerns.  And we had invited a response from the OTP and, as I said, we

 4     had left the matter unresolved.

 5             Are you in a position - when I say you, I mean "you" plural - in

 6     a position to speak to this at this moment?

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes, indeed, Your Honours.  My understanding was --

 8     where it was left was to work out the length of time it would take for

 9     Mr. Brown to conclude his evidence in-chief and cross-examination.  He

10     is -- on the timings that I have, we have estimated four hours as

11     evidence in-chief and I have a total of seven and a half hours of

12     cross-examination estimates provided by the Defence.  So I've put him in

13     the schedule for three full days in the week commencing the

14     18th of October.

15             And as -- as previously discussed, I think when this was raised

16     last week, I advised that he -- he would start and finish within that

17     week and then -- and that was the only week that he was available, within

18     this calendar year.

19             The -- the issue that Mr. Zecevic raised about not being in a

20     position to cross-examine him because of the disclosure of the Mladic

21     audios, I think I addressed that fully last week, when I advised that the

22     disclosure had taken place, and the only portions of the disclosure which

23     fell within Rule 66 (B) were two audios and one video, which had been

24     identified from the masses of -- of material specifically asked for by

25     the Defence and provided by us, together with the summary of all of the

Page 15305

 1     contents of those materials.

 2             So that information was provided to them together with a summary

 3     and the identification of what audios and videos fell within the

 4     parameters of 66 (B), namely, those three individual items, and was --

 5     the summary was provided on the basis that they have asked for this

 6     information.  We didn't feel a need to disclose it under any of the Rules

 7     because in our view it wasn't relevant.  But in doing so, we would

 8     provide to them -- and we highlighted the fact that it should not be

 9     relied upon for the grounds for an adjournment, in order to review.

10     Because, as I've said, it doesn't fall within the ambit of the Rules, and

11     it is not a matter -- it is not material that is relevant to the

12     cross-examination of Mr. Brown.  The material that is relevant has been

13     specifically identified and, as I said, is only confined to three tapes.

14             So it's the Prosecution position that he should be called as

15     scheduled.  It will create immense problems in terms of the all other

16     witnesses which had been scheduled for the period of October and

17     November - and Your Honours are aware that we have really tightly

18     scheduled them in order to get through them by the end of November - if

19     he is unable to on that day.  Because from -- it's only two weeks away,

20     and we're unlikely to fill that position if we can't bring him, because

21     we're going to have to reshuffle all of the ones that are coming up

22     thereafter.  And, as I've said, they have been meticulously scheduled in

23     order that we don't have any breaks and that we can finish before the end

24     of November.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Worst case, Ms. Pidwell, we start with him on the

Page 15306

 1     18th and the counsel for Stanisic is in fact not able to complete his

 2     cross-examination within the time projected, where do we go from there?

 3             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, in that week, sir, if it's not able to be

 4     completed, we would be looking for extra sessions that week to conclude

 5     his testimony.  Because within that -- if they -- within the

 6     cross-examination estimates provided to us, we will be able to complete

 7     him.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Pidwell, was Ewan Brown supposed to begin his

11     testimony on the 18th or on the 20th?

12             MS. PIDWELL:  On the 20th I have it.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  On the 20th of October --

14             MS. PIDWELL:  That's right.  The Wednesday, Thursday, Friday of

15     that week.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Right.

17             MS. PIDWELL:  And we are sitting mornings that week.  And we had

18     anticipated that if it looked like we would go over, then we would ask

19     for extra sessions that week to conclude him at that time.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And am I right to also establish that the

21     Prosecution had asked for two hours' examination-in-chief and that the

22     cross-examination of Mr. Zecevic was scheduled to last five hours and by

23     Mr. Krgovic two and a half hours, all together nine and a half hours; is

24     that right?

25             MS. PIDWELL:  That was the original estimate provided when we had

Page 15307

 1     sought to have his evidence tendered pursuant to 92 ter.  You may --

 2     Your Honours may recall in August last year when we had [Overlapping

 3     speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, yes, but I'm

 5     referring to the batting order which was delivered to us on the

 6     1st of October --

 7             MS. PIDWELL:  [Overlapping speakers] ... and as I have been

 8     advised by Ms. Korner, who is --

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So what are the right figures?

10             MS. PIDWELL:  It's four hours for the Prosecution and the

11     Defence.  Those were the -- those were the estimates provided to us by

12     the Defence.  Five plus two and a half.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So this is all together 11 and a half hours?

14             MS. PIDWELL:  Yes.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Will we be able to realistically, even with

16     extended sittings on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, to complete this

17     testimony by the end of Friday?

18             MS. PIDWELL:  Well, we're hoping that he -- we may be able to

19     bring him up earlier, so -- I mean, he is here from the weekend.  So

20     whenever the previous witness finishes, he will start.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,

24     I believe that this assessment of the OTP is unrealistic, especially

25     considering who is scheduled to come and testify in that week.

Page 15308

 1             There is a protected witness who is a military professional and

 2     whose examination-in-chief is not completed.  It was Ms. Korner who

 3     examined him.  So that our assessments are much less conservative.

 4             And with regard to the testimony of Expert Witness Brown, I'm not

 5     sure that we will stay with our estimate of two and a half hours, at

 6     least as far as the Zupljanin Defence is concerned, because due to all

 7     the current issues still pending, we have not made our final estimate

 8     yet.  I agree that a possible solution would be to have the witness

 9     complete the examination-in-chief and then shift the cross-examination.

10             I believe that it's unrealistic to assess that the end of the

11     Prosecution case will be in November because we are well behind the

12     original estimate of the OTP even now.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, do you take issue with the

14     Prosecution's submission that what you have to deal with in relation to

15     the testimony by Dr. Brown is only three tapes?  I mean, if that is

16     correct, it doesn't seem to be insurmountable, does it?

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we haven't had the

18     chance to see the entire material.  What the OTP consider relevant for

19     them may not be relevant for us.  We cannot tell you.

20             But speaking about the expert witness, let me say that in that

21     huge bulk of material that was disclosed at the beginning of the trial,

22     right now we have now come as far as tab 147, and we believe that there

23     is sufficient material, apart from Mladic's diaries and cassettes, a huge

24     amount of material that was disclosed to us in the meantime.  And because

25     the trial is ongoing and we sit every day, we were also unable to review

Page 15309

 1     it all.

 2             And for -- also for the reasons mentioned by Mr. Zecevic, I

 3     believe that it is preferable to have the testimony of Mr. Brown shifted

 4     toward the end of the OTP case or, at least, enable us to conduct the

 5     cross-examination at that time.

 6             I would like to remind you of the testimony of

 7     Expert Witness Nielsen.  It was extended greatly, and all deadlines

 8     were -- all deadlines were crossed, were -- so I believe that the OTP's

 9     assessment or estimate is unrealistic.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, do you have anything to add briefly

11     before we take the adjournment?  Because we have past the 1.45 mark.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

13             The Stanisic Defence's position is unchanged.  My learned friend

14     has put forward valid arguments to further the extension of the deadline

15     to examine the expert witness, and the Defence position is unchanged in

16     this regard.

17             And as for Mr. Krgovic's submission, I would like to add that the

18     relevance and the scope of the material is for the Defence to assess.  So

19     it's for us to decide what's relevant for us and how much time we'll need

20     to deal with it.

21             I'm sure that you will agree with me when I say that the

22     testimony of this expert witness has aroused much interest, both on the

23     part of the OTP and on the part of the Defence.  So we stand by our

24     position that the examination of the expert witness be postponed until

25     the end of the OTP case.  Or, alternatively, to have the

Page 15310

 1     examination-in-chief as scheduled and then have the cross-examination

 2     shifted toward the end.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Pidwell, is there any chance of his returning

 5     for cross-examination in the new year?

 6             MS. PIDWELL:  Your Honours, the Prosecution -- if Your Honours

 7     rule that we can't schedule him for that week in October, we would prefer

 8     to have his entire evidence, examination-in-chief and cross-examination,

 9     conducted at one time.  And as I previously advised, if we finish, as

10     scheduled, towards the end of November, we would then have to break and

11     bring him in the new year because he is unavailable to travel at any

12     other time in this current calendar year, besides that week.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14             We take the adjournment to tomorrow at 9.00.

15                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

17                           October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.