Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15615

 1                           Friday, 8 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at of 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everybody in and around the courtroom.  This is case IT-08-91-T, the

 7     Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Good morning to everyone.

10     May we have the appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

12     Crispian Smith and Selma Sakic for the Prosecution.  Sorry.  Sorry about

13     that.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  On

15     behalf of the Stanisic Defence team, Slobodan Cvijetic, Tatjana Savic,

16     and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

18     Daniella Sinobad appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  I remind witness, before Ms. Korner resumes her

20     examination-in-chief, that he's still on his oath.

21             Yes, Ms. Korner.

22                           THE WITNESS:  SLOBODAN AVLIJAS [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Examination by Ms. Korner:  [Continued]

Page 15616

 1        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, I regret that I want to go back and read the

 2     transcript over night to ask you about just one matter in respect again

 3     of the bunker that you spoke about yesterday that was in Vogosca.

 4             You told the Court that you saw -- you realised that people were

 5     being held there apart from being told that, because you saw people

 6     walking round the bunker coming out.  "They told us they were living in

 7     the bunker."  That's at page 15590.

 8             What people?

 9        A.   I didn't know those people.  I just saw a group of people in

10     front of the entrance to the bunker.  It was a nice day, and this was

11     very close to this building where we were meeting.  And also, nobody was

12     trying to hide this.  They told us these people were prisoners.

13        Q.   Right.  So the people you saw outside the bunker were prisoners.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And did you discover what ethnicity the prisoners were?

16        A.   No, I did not discover, but we were told that these were

17     Muslims -- or, rather, Bosniaks from the settlements around Vogosca.

18        Q.   Right.  Thank you.  And second matter, the people that you saw in

19     the warehouse in -- in Ilijas, were they in uniform or were they in

20     civilian clothes?

21        A.   I haven't seen anyone wearing a uniform.  I cannot tell you

22     things that are not true.  They were all in civilian clothes.

23        Q.   Right.  I want to move very quickly through, please, the rest of

24     the matters I want to ask you about because we have a limited amount of

25     time.  If I could stop misplacing my note, we might get on a bit quicker.

Page 15617

 1     Ah.  Right.

 2             Generally speaking, is this correct as you told us yesterday,

 3     that the MO -- the Ministry of Justice, the ministry, took over detention

 4     facilities from the end of July or beginning of August?

 5        A.   Penal and correctional institution.  That's part of the Ministry

 6     of Justice was the institution that took over.  And by the decision of

 7     the Presidency there was a reorganisation of the penal and correctional

 8     facilities, and Butmir where these people were inmates was also placed

 9     under this institution.

10        Q.   Yes.  I'm talking about the date, please.  Was that about the end

11     of July, beginning of August?

12        A.   In late July.  You can see from the notebook.  The moment the

13     police left Kula the security was taken over by the employees of the KP

14     Dom Kula.

15        Q.   I'm not just talking about Kula.  I'm talking about all the other

16     facilities, detention facilities, that you inspected or dealt with.  Were

17     they taken over by the ministry of justice at the end of July, beginning

18     of August?

19        A.   In this case we're discussing only Kula.  Only Kula was involved.

20        Q.   Right.  We're going to look at some of the documents that you

21     dealt with.  We've already looked at some.  Who was providing security

22     for all the places in which people were being kept until July/August?

23     Was it the Ministry of Justice or was it some other organisation?

24        A.   Workers of the Ministry of Justice were not securing anyone in

25     any penal or correctional facility.  I don't know about Foca, whether

Page 15618

 1     there was the army or the former employees of this facility.  I cannot

 2     tell you that.

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, let's -- perhaps we'll get at this quicker

 4     through some of the documents.  Can you have a look, please, at document

 5     number P165 at tab 22.

 6             Right.  Is that a report that you and a gentleman named Goran

 7     Saric made on yet another inspection of detention facilities?

 8        A.   Yes.  This is a report from Bileca that we drafted on the basis

 9     of a decision reached by the government to tour the area.  We went to the

10     barracks in Bileca, Trebinje, Gacko, and a pupils' home in Bileca and

11     Gacko.  We were told that there were no camps.  Colonel Cigarac [phoen]

12     in the barracks in Bileca -- should I slow down?

13        Q.   No.  I'd like you to deal, please, just with my questions rather

14     than volunteering information, because we've got, as I say, limited time.

15             All I want to ask you about this report is to whom did you

16     deliver that report?

17        A.   Thank you.

18        Q.   Who did you deliver the report to?

19        A.   To the minister.

20        Q.   In Bileca, you spoke to Mr. Vujovic, the head of the SJB there,

21     and he told you that 140 Muslims were accommodated in their premises.  Do

22     you mean the SJB?  By "their premises."

23        A.   It was in the students dorm and these people who were isolated

24     were secured by the police employees.

25        Q.   Right.  These people apparently had committed, from your report,

Page 15619

 1     no crime but were being kept there for their own safety.  That's what you

 2     recorded.  That's what the police told you.

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct.  If I may provide a broader explanation in

 4     two sentences.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6        A.   At the time, the Neretva River valley, Mostar area, people were

 7     leaving that area.  When I say "people," I mean the reserve of forces,

 8     paramilitaries and so on, and they all came to Bileca.  Mr. Vujovic, who

 9     was the chief of the municipality, believed that many problems can come

10     out of this situation, so they isolated the people and kept them in this

11     students dorm.  Women were being food for these people.  And after I

12     came -- it was the police that was providing security for them.

13        Q.   Right.  Okay.  All I'm concerned about is this:  If as you

14     reported the SJB was telling you these people were there for their own

15     safety, why did you recommend that the people who were over 60 should be

16     released?  If you look at the end of the second paragraph -- third

17     paragraph?

18        A.   When we went out, we received instructions that once we came to a

19     camp, and we didn't know that we were going to find such a situation,

20     people who were detained, prisoners of war who were detained, that there

21     shouldn't be in detention people over 60 years of age, children, and

22     women.  That was the instruction I received then.  That's how I acted.

23        Q.   Yes, but these, according to your report as to what this SJB

24     chief told you, these weren't prisoners at all.  These were people being

25     kept for their own safety.  So why should you, in that case, recommend

Page 15620

 1     that the people over 60 should be released into the dangers of this

 2     particular area?

 3        A.   It is possible that I drafted this just basing it according to

 4     the instruction and that maybe I haven't found any people who were over

 5     60 or women or children.  I didn't mean to suggest that anyone should be

 6     released, especially when I was told that -- what kind of threats they're

 7     facing, that the mosque in the town was destroyed, and that was done by

 8     the paramilitaries.  I believe that what they did was a smart move.

 9        Q.   Right.  Just read, would you, please, to yourself the last

10     sentence of paragraph 3 in your report.  Bottom of the page.

11             Now, does that or does not that say --

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  I can see.  It is possible that I said this.  I

13     don't know why.  Probably just keeping to what I was given in the

14     instruction.  And you're right.  Why would they be released in a

15     situation like this?

16        Q.   Because can I put this to you, Mr. Avlijas, that you knew and the

17     police knew that these people were being illegally held simply because

18     they were Muslims.  Isn't that why you made the recommendation at the

19     end?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was a leading

21     question.  The witness is being told what to answer.

22             JUDGE HALL:  I wouldn't have thought it was a leading question,

23     Mr. Cvijetic, but did I think that it is -- struck me as something that

24     should be reserved for submissions at the end.  The report is there.  The

25     witness has been invited on three occasions to comment on it, and we have

Page 15621

 1     his answer.  The rest is for inference and argument.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour's right to that extent, except I thought

 3     perhaps maybe just once the witness might like to tell us really what

 4     happened.  All right.  I'll move on.

 5        Q.   So can we move now, please, to the next, which is a report, again

 6     I think from you -- sorry, it's document, please -- oh, sorry, before I

 7     leave that last document, can I just check something.

 8             No.  Yes.  Let's move to the next report, please, then.  It's

 9     document 65 ter 2825, tab 25.

10             If we go to the second page, just so we can see the signature.

11             Is that your signature?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   To whom did you give this report?  If we go back to the first

14     page.

15        A.   To the Ministry of justice, the minister.

16        Q.   Yes.  I see.  I think it's rather an odd translation of the

17     ministry of justice for some reason.

18             Right.  Was this a further inspection of various detention

19     facilities, this time in the area of the autonomous region?

20        A.   No.  This is about a meeting of the representatives of the

21     Banja Luka region from all various structures.  Milan Trbojevic,

22     Mr. Milan Trbojevic, vice-president or -- of the government, Dragan

23     Kalinic who was minister of health, and I also think although I didn't

24     mention in the report minister of defence Mr. Subotic attended.  When we

25     look at the attendees it would have been logical for Mr. Mandic, the

Page 15622

 1     minister to be present, but he sent me instead.  I attended the meeting,

 2     and the topics listed here were discussed at this meeting.

 3        Q.   Right.  You -- you -- what you say in this, that there were

 4     representatives of the army.  Was that General Gvero?

 5        A.   No.  General Gvero was not in attendance.  I think it was one of

 6     the generals from the Krajina Corps who attended, or some of the

 7     high-ranking officer.  I can't remember.  It was a long time ago.  I

 8     didn't write it down.

 9        Q.   All right.  Representatives of the internal affairs bodies.

10     That's the police.  Was Stojan Zupljanin there?

11        A.   Yes.  Mr. Zupljanin was there.  Simo Drljaca as well.  Basic and

12     District prosecutors, president of the District and Basic Court, mayor of

13     Banja Luka, the late Dr. Predrag Radic, Vukic, as far as I remember, and

14     some other people attended.  The hall was packed.

15        Q.   Right.  During the course of this meeting did the topic of the

16     killings which had taken place in the area of Koricanske Stijene come up?

17        A.   Yes, and that resulted in a troublesome discussion initiated by

18     late Mayor Radic who was very angry, who said that this throws bad light

19     on the area of Banja Luka, and the army joined in.  There was also

20     present the chief of the SJB of Prijedor whose policemen committed the

21     terrible crime.  Then the members of the army told us about what the

22     location looked like, that it was a cliff.  They said also that they went

23     to the site.  Mr. Zupljanin said that he had formed a team, that the

24     on-site investigation had been carried out, that a criminal report had

25     been submitted, and if I'm not mistaken, I think Mr. Puvacic who was the

Page 15623

 1     Basic prosecutor was asked to speak.  He was asked how far have they come

 2     with the investigation, but the conclusion was that this whole situation

 3     had to be fully cleared up.

 4        Q.   Right.  You say that --

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm sorry, Ms. Korner.  There's something which is

 6     wrongly translated.  It's at page 9, line 24.  Can the witness be asked

 7     to repeat last sentence.  It was recorded.  Mr. Puvacic who was the Basic

 8     prosecutor was asked to it speak.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Would Your Honours give me one minute.

10                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

11             MS. KORNER:  Right.  I'm told there's agreement about this,

12     Your Honours.

13        Q.   Sir, could you repeat your sentence in respect of what you said

14     about Mr. Puvacic, the prosecutor, because we think there's a wrong

15     translation.

16        A.   Mr. Stojan Zupljanin informed those present that the on-site

17     investigation had been carried out at Koricanske Stijene, that CSB

18     Banja Luka team went there, that they drafted a criminal report.  Now, I

19     cannot remember whether it included the names of the perpetrators or

20     whether it was an unknown perpetrator report, and that this report was

21     submitted to Mr. Puvacic, the Basic prosecutor.  So they turned to

22     Mr. Puvacic and asked him what has been done until that moment about this

23     case.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, you -- you said that -- well, actually, I

25     suppose I ought to stick to that for a moment.  What did Mr. Puvacic say

Page 15624

 1     in reply?

 2        A.   That investigation was ongoing.  A standard reply that the

 3     procedure is underway, and that allegedly they had problems because the

 4     perpetrators were at large somewhere.  To the best of my recollection.  I

 5     do have some recollection of it, because this was a rather heavy case.

 6        Q.   Was it Mr. Puvacic who said that the perpetrators were at large?

 7     Did Mr. Drljaca say anything about the perpetrators?

 8        A.   It was a difficult situation, because these were employees of the

 9     Prijedor SJB.  I -- this is not my field of expertise, and I can't

10     discuss this much, but I had this feeling that the whole meeting was

11     looking at Mr. Drljaca.  He was supposed to tell why.  I think Drljaca

12     may have said that he had tried to arrest the perpetrators and that one

13     or two of them were at large, that they fled.

14        Q.   Right.  But nobody at that meeting, from what you say, was in any

15     doubt that the people who had committed this crime were police officers?

16        A.   No, there was no doubt about that.  That was clearly stated.  Not

17     at any time there was any doubt about someone else being involved and not

18     the policemen.

19        Q.   Right.  Did Mr. Zupljanin say anything to Mr. Drljaca?

20        A.   I can't remember, but I do think there was some conflict between

21     the two of them on one occasion during the meeting, because one was

22     saying, "These are your policemen.  It's impossible that they've just

23     fled."

24             I know that Simo Drljaca wasn't really humble at the time.  I

25     can't remember his response, but the whole situation was very charged.

Page 15625

 1        Q.   Right.  Yes.  Thank you.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may this document be admitted and

 3     marked, please.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit -- as Exhibit P1635, Your Honours.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Right.

 7        Q.   Could we now move, please, to your major report, which is already

 8     an exhibit.  It's at tab 29.  P393.  Thank you.

 9             Right.  I know that you're very familiar with this report,

10     Mr. Avlijas, as indeed I think are the Chamber now.  27th of October.

11     Whose signature is that on the front page of the letter to the Presidency

12     and the various officials?

13        A.   Of Minister Mandic.

14        Q.   This was your report, though, to Mr. Mandic.  Was it Mr. Mandic

15     who had instructed you to carry out this inspection?

16        A.   Yes.  At a meeting one day prior to the time I went out to do a

17     tour, I think it was based on some instruction by the government, I was

18     told to tour all the locations around Prijedor.  You cannot find it

19     written in there, but I think there was some pressure after a meeting in

20     Geneva where representative I think maybe of the Red Cross, Sadako Ogata,

21     who at that meeting in Geneva had said that there was some terrible

22     things happening on the ground, that Trnopolje camp was re-established,

23     and I was tasked to tour a number of places and draft a report about my

24     tour.

25        Q.   All right.  Now, I just want to deal with a few matters in this

Page 15626

 1     report.  When you went to Vlasenica, you started -- can we go, sorry, to

 2     the next page in both English and B/C/S.

 3             You started your report by saying:

 4             "According to information from the IRC, there is allegedly a

 5     collection camp at this location, in the immediate vicinity of the town,

 6     in a place called Luke."

 7             Do you now know what that camp was actually called?

 8        A.   I later found out it was called Susica, but I wasn't sure then

 9     whether I've confused the terms Luke and Susica.  And during the proofing

10     and also during the interviews, I asked to be shown air photos, and, yes,

11     that's the camp.  I toured this camp, and what you can see here, I could

12     say that, yes, that was Susica based on the lay out of the terrain and

13     the facilities there.

14        Q.   Yes.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, if there's any dispute about this I'll

16     show the witness the photographs but it takes up time to look at.  Is

17     there any dispute about what he actually saw was Susica, because if so,

18     I'll get him to identify the photographs.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It is not a contentious issue.

20             MS. KORNER:  Mr. Krgovic?

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  No.

22             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  And in the context of time, you have ten minutes

24     remaining, Ms. Korner.

25             MS. KORNER:  I know.  That's why I'm speeding up.

Page 15627

 1        Q.   Now, you also -- can I just deal with one matter.  Yes.  You

 2     talked about Prijedor in item 4.  That's in the -- sorry, the one, two --

 3     fourth page in English and the third page in B/C/S.

 4             And -- actually, I think we need to go, sorry, to the next page

 5     in the B/C/S, because the part I want to refer to ...  There.

 6             You talk about in the second paragraph of your report on Prijedor

 7     that there was a meeting at Prijedor during the course of your inspection

 8     with the representatives of the International Red Cross and other people.

 9     I just want to put to you and see if you can remember this.  Was one of

10     the other people there Dr. Stakic?

11        A.   Yes.  Dr. Stakic was, then the late Dr. Kovacevic, the late

12     Simo Drljaca.  Simo Srdac [phoen] who was the president of the Red Cross

13     and a deputy in the RS Assembly, and I believe the SDS president there --

14     was there.  On our behalf there was a Dr. Aleksic who was assistant

15     minister of health, and Mr. Beat or Beat, I believe, who was also in

16     attendance from the ICRC.

17        Q.   Yes, well, I think we'll discover that's Dr. Beat Schweizer.  And

18     was there, in fact, also present a representative of the -- the local

19     newspaper "Kozarski Vjesnik"?

20        A.   I think there was a journalist there.  Later on I found out that

21     an article was published.

22        Q.   Yes.  Did you read the article at the time?

23        A.   I did not.  It was shown it me later, and I don't think it

24     accurately reflects the truth of the matter, but that's my personal view.

25        Q.   Right.  Next can we quickly move to Sanski Most, please.

Page 15628

 1             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  Next page in English.  Same page in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   What you record in your report was "the information there is a

 3     camp in Sanski Most is not correct.  In that area only four people were

 4     taken prisoner and transferred to the Manjaca camp ..."  Who gave you the

 5     information that only four people had been taken prisoner during the

 6     course of that?

 7        A.   A security officer.  I contacted them for the most part whenever

 8     there was a danger in terms of access due to combat.  They provided me

 9     such information, for example, for Sanski Most and Kotor Varos, I

10     believe, because I don't go there myself.

11        Q.   Who do you mean by a security officer?

12        A.   From the Banja Luka Corps.  Those who were in charge of that

13     particular area.  The Krajina Corps, that is.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, are you saying that you never met anybody in Sanski

15     Most?

16        A.   No, I never met anybody in Sanski Most or in Kotor Varos, because

17     I think there is a reference to Kotor Varos as well.

18        Q.   Right.  So you never made any attempt to -- to query or see

19     whether the security officer was telling you the truth?

20        A.   There was no reason for me to disbelieve him.  I had no time, and

21     I really couldn't move about.  Hence, I couldn't go out on my own in

22     those areas where there were -- there was combat.  I took his word for

23     it, especially because he said that all of those taken prisoner were

24     transferred to Manjaca.  Later on we had a meeting in Banja Luka in

25     August where it was said that all persons from the area of Krajina were

Page 15629

 1     located at Manjaca, and this is what I based my conclusion on and I

 2     trusted what I was told.

 3        Q.   This report was after the Banja Luka meeting in August, but

 4     anyhow can we move very quickly finally to Ilidza and Hadzici.  That's in

 5     the --

 6             MR. KRGOVIC:  Ms. Korner, Ms. Korner, there is -- again it is

 7     problem with this translation.  The word "later" starts with -- doesn't

 8     appear from his answer.

 9             MS. KORNER:  All right.

10        Q.   You did go, however, to Ilidza, didn't you, and Hadzici?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you saw -- and you described in your report that there was a

13     makeshift prison for prisoners of war Ilidza, which is organised,

14     supervised by the public security station.  It's in the secondary school

15     in Ilidza.  And also there was a sports facility at Hadzici, also with

16     security being provided by the SJB there.

17             Were you allowed by the police to inspect either of those two

18     premises?

19        A.   Let's start with Hadzici.  In Hadzici, there were Bosniak

20     prisoners who had been taken prisoner back in May 1992 by the army.  They

21     were transferred to Kula where they stayed until September or October

22     1992, when an all-for-all exchange was exchanged between -- for the camps

23     at Tarcin and Kula.

24        Q.   No, no, no, no, no.  Can we -- I'm sorry, I don't think we've got

25     it up on the screen, actually, which may be why you're going off like

Page 15630

 1     this.  Can we have the next page, I think, in English.  No.  Ten is on

 2     the screen.  No.  All right.  Go back, please.  Yes -- no, that's it.

 3     Hadzici.

 4             Look, you said in your report that 90 people are accommodated in

 5     the Hadzici sports centre.  So --

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe the witness should be

 7     allowed to complete his sentence, and I believe he may even provide an

 8     answer to the question Ms. Korner was about to put.

 9             MS. KORNER:  The witness is talking about people who were

10     transferred to Kula until September.  I'm asking him about the 90

11     prisoners of war that he records in his -- in his report.

12        Q.   Now, are you saying these are one and the same people, sir?

13        A.   That is precisely what I wanted to say.  These were the same

14     people, because the exchange failed, because they couldn't be transferred

15     elsewhere.  The easiest thing was to move them to Hadzici.  The group

16     who -- that was in charge of it didn't do their job properly.  They

17     returned them to Hadzici, and they wanted to basically use these people

18     as leverage to secure an exchange with Tarcin.  They were secured by the

19     workers of the police.  The conditions were very bad, and those in charge

20     of guarding them could hardly wait for the people to leave.  Those people

21     had been viciously mistreated back in June in Hadzici by paramilitaries.

22     A lot of my friends were arrested who told me about all of that that had

23     taken place at Kula.  That is the same group.

24        Q.   All right.  You're -- you're saying this is the same group that

25     were arrested in May, transferred to Kula, whenever it was.  When did

Page 15631

 1     they get beaten up by paramilitaries in June then?

 2        A.   Not in June, in May.  In May.  Before they were transferred to

 3     Kula they had gone through horrific torture by paramilitaries in Hadzici.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So you saw these people in October in Hadzici.

 5        A.   No.  Those same people who were returned to Hadzici are the

 6     people I saw when they were in June and July at Kula.  They could move

 7     freely about.  Since I had lived in Hadzici for 17 years, I had a lot of

 8     really good friends who were detained there.  I --

 9        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

10        A.   -- asked the people who stood guard there to it allow me to see

11     some of my friends and then those friends told me all about the

12     mistreatment and torture.

13        Q.   They told you all about their mistreatment and torture where?

14        A.   In the gym when they were arrested in May, before their transfer

15     to Kula.

16        Q.   And these are totally different from the -- the people from

17     Hadzici that you spoke to when you were in Ilijas all those months ago --

18     or, rather, the same people.

19        A.   Ilijas is a separate story.  I was there on official business,

20     and that's why people knew me there.  As for Hadzici, I had lived there

21     for 17 years.  I was the court president there for eight years, and I was

22     the secretary of the health centre there for a number of years.  I had

23     lots of friends there who found themselves in this misfortunate

24     situation.

25        Q.   Can we now try and get some order into this.  The people from

Page 15632

 1     Hadzici that you spoke to when you were there in Ilijas in June are --

 2        A.   Not in Ilijas.

 3        Q.   You told us yesterday, sir, you spoke to people from Hadzici who

 4     you knew when you were there in June.  Now, are these people, the 90

 5     prisoners of war described in your report, a different group?  That's all

 6     I want.  Yes or no?

 7        A.   No.  Ilijas is a separate group of people, and in Hadzici there

 8     was a different group of people.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Were you on this occasion in October allowed by the

10     police to see these people in Hadzici?  Yes or no?

11        A.   The regular policemen couldn't stand me, and the police commander

12     had to intervene for me to be allowed to visit those people and see what

13     the situation was, and the conditions were not met.  They did not meet

14     the standards required by the Geneva Conventions.

15        Q.   Right.  Were you allowed in Ilidza to enter the secondary school

16     which was being guarded by the police?

17        A.   At Ilidza, I was not lucky enough to enter.  They were guarded by

18     some policemen who did not grant me access.  And I asked to see those

19     senior to them, but none of them were to be found in the police station.

20     I only knew that there was a high school there, that there was a single

21     toilet and a number of classrooms, and that these were not the conditions

22     in which prisoners should be held.  I used that as the basis of my

23     report.

24        Q.   Right.  And finally in the conclusion to your report, you said:

25             "In the cases --"

Page 15633

 1             Can we look at the -- yes, the last page in B/C/S, please.

 2             "In the cases of Zvornik, Hadzici, and Ilidza, we see that the

 3     Public Security Stations keep people in custody without any authorisation

 4     or justification in law because they have the authority to keep people in

 5     custody for no longer than three days."

 6             That was your opinion, was it?

 7        A.   Yes, it was.  I followed common sense and the law.  If the

 8     minister of the interior is included or a police station, the Law on

 9     Criminal Procedure prescribes the authority of the police and limits it

10     to being able to hold someone in custody for three days.  Whether there

11     were any other conditions in place, that is something I didn't go into,

12     but I'm simply sharing my view with you as a legal professional.

13        Q.   As a result of that -- actually, I think this is already an

14     exhibit, so I don't need to show you that.  Yes.

15             Finally -- all right.  Now, finally, Mr. Avlijas, in the places

16     that you visited of detention during this period between the end of May

17     and October 1992, who was providing the security for the detainees?

18        A.   It depended on the location.  Somewhere it was the army, and

19     elsewhere it was the police.  In Zvornik, when I visited, by sheer

20     circumstance it was the police who had to secure some 40-plus prisoners,

21     because they had simply been given these people by the army.  They came

22     from a number of different reception centres and held together.  In

23     Hadzici it was the police, in Ilidza the police, in Bileca the police,

24     because it's all in my report.  I can't deny that.  As for the reasons

25     for it, that is something I cannot provide you with an answer to.

Page 15634

 1        Q.   No.  And even before the place -- the other places that you

 2     visited and described to the Court, namely in Ilidza, in Ilija -- sorry,

 3     in Ilijas, in Vogosca, and other places, on each occasion was it the

 4     police who were providing the security?

 5        A.   I think there was a combination of the police and army.  In

 6     Vogosca it was Brano Vlaco who had been a policeman before the war.

 7     Everyone knew that.  And it was logical for me to conclude that the

 8     police stood guard there.  In Ilijas I think it was the army, although

 9     I'm not certain.  In Vogosca it was Brano Vlaco.  That is certain.  He

10     was at the meeting, and we already ascertained that he was a member of

11     the police and that he used his reserve force to provide guard duty

12     there.

13        Q.   And finally, I'm sorry to say that's the second finally, you told

14     us that you were refused access by the police in Ilidza to the facility.

15     Did you complain?  This doesn't appear in your report.  Did you tell

16     anybody you had been refused access?

17        A.   Well, in the report and when I submitted it to the minister I

18     told him that I couldn't enter and that the chief of the police Mr. Kovac

19     wasn't there.  I was certain he would have allowed me to.  I told him,

20     minister, you know what the school in Hadzici is like, and I think -- you

21     have a letter of Mr. Mandic to the municipalities in evidence.  I

22     suggested to him that it would be a wise thing to do to have those people

23     removed for danger of retaliation by paramilitaries or revenge, and

24     indeed it was followed through later on.

25        Q.   Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Avlijas.

Page 15635

 1        A.   You're welcome.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes Mr. Cvijetic.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Avlijas.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   What you said at the end about Vogosca and Brano Vlaco what

 7     period did you have in mind when you say you think he had been a

 8     policeman?

 9        A.   Before the war he had been a policeman, and at the beginning of

10     the war he was an employee of the police station in Vogosca.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note:  Could the counsel and

12     witness pause between questions and answers.  Thank you.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did you know that he was -- we are being asked to pause.  Let me

15     check what's in the transcript.

16             I asked you whether you knew he had been pensioned off before the

17     war.

18        A.   I hear that for the first time now.

19        Q.   Did you know that the local Crisis Staff decided to engage him on

20     these tasks?  And I believe we have been discussing the issue of the

21     bunker.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you know that the local Crisis Staff engaged him?

24        A.   I didn't discuss it, but I believe so, because nothing could be

25     done without the Crisis Staff.

Page 15636

 1        Q.   Very well.  I will show you only two documents then.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document --

 3     please bear with me.  1D04-3059, tab 12.

 4             Your Honours, we are still awaiting translation of this document,

 5     but since it mainly consists of first and last names it won't be

 6     difficult to draw inferences.  Perhaps the interpreters can follow, and

 7     the witness may read out the title of the document.  I will do it:

 8             "A list of professional employees of the Serb station -- police

 9     station in Vogosca," and this is a payroll for May 1992.

10        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, have a close look at the list.  When you are done

11     with this page, we can move on.

12        A.   I have read it.

13        Q.   Let us go to the last page of the document then.  Have you had

14     occasion to read it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   On this list of employees of the Vogosca police station we do not

17     find Brano Vlaco; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

20     this document, but it should be MFI'd pending its translation.

21             MS. KORNER:  Okay.  There are -- I thought that Mr. Cvijetic

22     might be trying to do this when I saw the documents yesterday.  There are

23     two things.  Firstly, he never asked the witness, for obvious reasons,

24     whether he'd seen it before because I think the answer would have been

25     no.

Page 15637

 1             Secondly, and I'm sure this is inadvertent and that Mr. Cvijetic

 2     doesn't intend to mislead either the witness or the Court, but tendered

 3     as an exhibit, Exhibit P1506, not so long ago by another witness who

 4     dealt with the events in Vogosca is a list of the police in Vogosca,

 5     active and reserve police, dated the 28th of May, and shown at number 63

 6     of that list is Brano Vlaco, which is why I said yesterday I have not

 7     appreciated that there was any dispute, because it went in without

 8     objection and without cross-examination that Mr. Vlaco was, in fact, a

 9     police officer.  So for the -- I don't see how it can go in through that

10     witness, let alone without a translation.  But I don't see the purpose

11     either at the moment.

12             JUDGE HALL:  The other thing that occurs to me is that apart from

13     the -- what I would call positive document to which Ms. Korner has -- has

14     referred us, I'm not sure what -- even if it had been translated and all

15     of that, the usefulness of this document would be, which is a -- which

16     merely shows the absence of a name.  So I suppose an argument could be

17     constructed on that, but on the face of it, I wouldn't have thought it

18     was it relevant or certainly of very much assistance, the mere absence of

19     something on a document.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the document speaks

21     for itself, and to me it's useful as a reference for -- frame of

22     reference for the questions I'm about to ask the witness.

23             We had a witness --

24             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, I really need to know what the position

25     is.  Is the suggestion that's going to be made now, and it's not been

Page 15638

 1     made when a witness was here who could have dealt with it, that Mr. Brano

 2     Vlaco was not a member of the Vogosca police in May of 1992, and if so,

 3     that should be made absolutely clear and should have been made

 4     originally.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, we agree with the position taken by

 6     Ms. Korner on this.  Could we have your response to that.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this was used with

 8     the witness who had testified before this Trial Chamber, and based on

 9     two -- on another two documents, we established -- well, I cannot say it

10     in front of the witness before I show him a document.

11             Three documents have been used from which we concluded what the

12     witness has just said.  To my question whether the Crisis Staff was in a

13     position to install him in that position, he answered affirmatively, and

14     I want to show that using three documents which have already been used

15     with witnesses.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, before we wander too far -- too far

17     afield from the very narrow issue, the point that Ms. Korner has raised

18     and has asked for an answer, and we agree that she is entitled to press

19     you on this, is that having regard to the evidence that has been led, is

20     it the position of the Defence of Stanisic that Brano Vlaco was not a

21     member of the police at the relevant time?  Because as Ms. Korner has

22     said, having regard to the position heretofore taken, they were entitled

23     to continue on the line that this was not in dispute, and we're merely

24     calling on -- on you to -- to answer Ms. Korner's question so we all know

25     where we're going in respect of that narrow issue.

Page 15639

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just been

 2     informed that the document I referred to is also on the 65 ter list.  So

 3     I'm not talking about a new document, and it has been used with previous

 4     witnesses, only it has been marked differently.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, that is not the question.  I'll try

 6     again.  Is it the position of the Defence of Stanisic that Brano Vlaco

 7     was not a police officer in May of 1992 in Vogosca?  Yes or no?

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.  And it

 9     follows from everything I have said, and I want to show that using three

10     documents, but I'm not being allowed to.  It would be easiest for me to

11     say yes or no.  The Crisis Staff appointed him because he retired before

12     the war, and he wasn't an employee of the police station.  We even have

13     an exhibit which you admitted.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, you're not being prevented from

15     challenging this if it is, in fact, your case.  All we are saying is that

16     for the sake of clarity, having regard to what appeared to be your

17     position, and when I say "appeared," appeared to the Chamber and would

18     have appeared to the Prosecution, before you opened this line of question

19     that you were not making this challenge.  Is it your position that you

20     are?  Yes or no?

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I don't understand why it appeared

22     to you that I do not challenge it.  Of course I do challenge it.  I think

23     it is clear from what has been established through this witness so far --

24             JUDGE HALL:  Now we know where you're headed.  Please proceed

25     Mr. Cvijetic.

Page 15640

 1             MS. KORNER:  Can I just make one point.  Firstly, Your Honour,

 2     Mr. Cvijetic must stop giving evidence.  We've been saying this over and

 3     over again saying that the Crisis Staff appointed him.

 4             Secondly, if it is their case, as it was, as it now is they say,

 5     for obvious reasons that he was not a member of the police, then may I

 6     make it clear there should have been cross-examination of the witness who

 7     actually dealt with the document which, as I say, shows Mr. Brano Vlaco,

 8     number 63, on the list of active and reserve of police officers.  And

 9     obviously now that we know, and it's been a thing we've been saying all

10     along, it is important that when the Defence have a positive case to put,

11     it should be put properly.

12             JUDGE HALL:  And we believe we've already ruled on this.  Their

13     failure to do so would have -- the consequences would be inevitable.  So

14     I don't know with respect, Ms. Korner, that you need exercise yourself

15     about this.

16             MR. CVIJETIC:  [Microphone not activated]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone is not activated.

18             JUDGE HALL:  So now that we -- now that we understand what your

19     position is, the document would be marked for identification pending

20     its -- sorry.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have clarified

23     the situation.  The list that I have just shown the witness has been

24     admitted as a Prosecution exhibit on the occasion of the examination of a

25     protected witness.  I can give the reference numbers.  P1504, and there's

Page 15641

 1     also P1519.  And this is where the situation was clarified.

 2             Mr. Brano Vlaco was employed by the police station Vogosca only

 3     in November once he was --

 4             MS. KORNER:  This is complete nonsense.  At the moment when

 5     Mr. Cvijetic stopped giving evidence, as far as this document is

 6     concerned, it's -- if he wants it in, once he's got his translation,

 7     although this witness can say absolutely nothing about it, we're not

 8     raising an objection.

 9             This -- this stream-of-consciousness giving of evidence should

10     stop.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the ruling of the Chamber is -- by majority is

12     the document may not be admitted even marked for identification through

13     this witness.  I am the dissentient in this case.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  I will show the next

15     document, 1D04-3601.  We're also waiting for a translation to be made.

16     Here.  It's titled "List of Reserve Police Officers Who Worked for the

17     SJB of Vogosca in May 1992."

18        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, you can read it, and if you have read the first

19     page, let us turn to the second one.

20        A.   I have.

21        Q.   Mr. Avlijas --

22        A.   I'm still reading it.  Go ahead.

23        Q.   I will put the position of the Defence to you.  Mr. Brano Vlaco

24     was not a member of the police station of Vogosca in May 1992.  If you

25     remember you said yesterday that he was introduced to you by people of

Page 15642

 1     the Crisis Staff and that he was appointed by the Crisis Staff to do

 2     these jobs, and you repeated as much today, if I remember well.

 3             After what you have seen now, can you confirm your position and

 4     the conclusion you drew?

 5             MS. KORNER:  Look, I'm sorry.  Please -- I'm sorry, Mr. Avlijas.

 6             You cannot mislead the Court, Mr. Cvijetic.  If you want to put

 7     that to him -- sorry.  I shouldn't be addressing him directly,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             Mr. Cvijetic should, if he wants to put this proposition, is

10     obliged to put before him other documents which contradict the position,

11     but he cannot say, "On what you have seen so far, do you change your

12     position that Mr. Vlaco was a police officer," because it's misleading.

13     He must show him document already as I point out Exhibit 1506, dated the

14     28th of May, Vogosca police station, role of active and reserve police

15     officers.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let us show both the

17     Prosecution's and the Defence Exhibit P1504.

18             JUDGE HALL:  It seems to me, Mr. Cvijetic, that you're faced

19     with a -- I don't know if it's an impossible task, but how useful is it

20     going to be to show two contradictory documents to a witness and ask the

21     witness his conclusion?  His conclusion's neither here nor there.  It's a

22     matter for the Trial Chamber at the end of the day.  So is there any

23     point in persisting down this path that you have -- that you are taking?

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There is no contradiction.  The

25     document which was admitted is identical to the one I have just -- I have

Page 15643

 1     just shown.  They are identical.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Is it -- is it documents P1504 or P1506 that we

 3     need to look at?  I'm unsure about it.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I did say to Mr. Cvijetic 1504.  It's

 5     1506, dated the 28th of May.  And if one goes to the third page in

 6     English, number 63.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all unused microphones please be switched

 9     off.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So then if -- if we have 1504 without that name

11     on it and a 1506 with that name on it, there is the contradiction

12     Judge Hall was referring to, Mr. Cvijetic, not a contradiction between

13     1504 and the one you failed to tender.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we're in possession

15     of the payrolls for this police station for all months, May, June, July,

16     August, up until November.  We are in possession of all those rolls.  Of

17     course, this witness -- or they cannot be tendered through this witness.

18     And Mr. Vlaco cannot be found on those rolls.

19             We have settled this with the protected witness, and he said to

20     us when Mr. Brano Vlaco started working at the police station.

21     Therefore, I will limit myself to a specific question with this witness.

22        Q.   How was Mr. Brano Vlaco introduced to you on that day,

23     Mr. Avlijas, as being who and in which position, and who introduced him?

24        A.   At that meeting where we were, which we attended, Brano Vlaco was

25     one of those present, and it was said that he -- he was in charge of

Page 15644

 1     providing security to prisoners of war, and he was wearing a camouflage

 2     uniform from which I concluded that he was a police officer.  Later on I

 3     found out privately that he was a police officer, and I never heard until

 4     now that he was -- he retired before the war.

 5        Q.   So that camouflage uniform was a police uniform rather than

 6     military uniform?

 7        A.   Well, I couldn't be sure at the time.  People wore all sorts of

 8     uniforms.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

10     sentence, and Defence counsel and the witness really should not overlap.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  Hold on a minute, Mr. Cvijetic, because the

12     transcript reads that the witness's testimony goes as follows:   "Later

13     on I found out privately that he was a police officer," and I just wonder

14     if that was what the witness said.

15             Secondly, my question to the witness would be if the witness

16     understood at the time that Mr. Vlaco was representing the SJB in

17     Vogosca.  Was that your understanding of -- of the situation when you

18     actually met Mr. Vlaco?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I may have been mistaken, but

20     that's how I understood it.  I must be honest about it.  I found out only

21     today that Brano Vlaco retired before the war, but I know that he was

22     saying that he was a police officer at the time.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, did you -- how did you find out

24     today that Mr. Vlaco was -- was retired before the war?  Where did you

25     get that information from today?

Page 15645

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, the -- from Defence counsel,

 2     Mr. Cvijetic.  He asked me whether I knew that he had retired.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  But that's the first time I heard

 5     of it.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's the exact reason why my

 7     complaint about the form of questions that are put.  It's counsel giving

 8     evidence which the witness is accepting when he doesn't know one way or

 9     the other.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's time for a

11     break.  May I continue after the break then?

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Whenever you're ready you may continue,

16     Mr. Cvijetic.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, yesterday when you spoke about -- about the way

19     Mr. Vlaco was received as a ministry employee, you said that it was all

20     done between the minister and Mr. Vlaco; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So it wasn't between the Ministry of Interior and Ministry of

23     Justice?

24        A.   You're right.  There were no memos between them.  It was based on

25     the communications between the Vogosca Crisis Staff and the Ministry of

Page 15646

 1     Justice.

 2        Q.   Yesterday, on page 15587, when you were asked who attended this

 3     meeting in Vogosca and when you were asked who was there representing

 4     Vogosca SJB, you said:

 5             "I don't remember, but I think there was a young man, blonde,

 6     Blagovcanin."

 7             Do you remember saying that?

 8        A.   Yes, Blagovcanin, maybe Maksimovic.  Maybe there were two of them

 9     but I do remember the blonde man, Blagovcanin, but Maksimovic may have

10     been there as well.

11        Q.   So you spoke about those two persons being at the meeting on

12     behalf of the Vogosca SJB.  Am I right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Later on you were asked in what capacity Mr. Vlaco was there, and

15     you said that he introduced himself as chief of security, or head of

16     security, and that's on pages 15588 and 89.  You were asked what uniform

17     he wore.  You said he had a uniform, and then you said, "I don't remember

18     whether it was a police or military uniform."

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Do you stand by your answer?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Fine.  Do you know, since you do live in Bijeljina, that the

23     Vogosca Public Security Station included another Mr. Vlaco who has a

24     moustache and who is now an employee of Bijeljina bank who had you --

25     used to work in the crime prevention department at the SJB?

Page 15647

 1        A.   Yes, yeah I know him.  He's now Raiffeisen general manager for

 2     the branch office in Bijeljina.  He was in the police.  I don't know

 3     that.  I cannot respond to that question.  I'm not sure whether he had

 4     worked in the police or not.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  There is no need.  We cleared this through the

 6     witness we discussed before the break.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could we -- could we perhaps ask the witness what

 8     the first name of this Mr. Vlaco was, if he knows?

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You said -- you heard the Judge.  Was it the name who had the

11     same name and surname?

12        A.   Yes.  Both of them were called Brano.  Now, I don't know whether

13     one was Branko or something else, but because this is a diminutive form

14     of this name, Branislav, Branko, everybody gets to be called Brano.

15        Q.   We will not go into that any further, but -- because we discussed

16     this through a witness who -- I won't say his name because he was a

17     protected witness, but who was better familiar with the situation, and

18     also, we will ask for this Brano Vlaco to come as a witness here and we

19     will clarify it once and for all.

20             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honour.  All that I want to ask to be

21     clarified, please, is that we appear to have contradictory answers.  It

22     was put to him at line 9 that the Vogosca SJB included another Mr. Vlaco

23     who is now an employee of Bijeljina bank, and the answer was:

24             "I know him.  He's now a general manager for the Raiffeisen," I

25     think he said, "branch office in Bijeljina.  He was in the police.  I

Page 15648

 1     don't know that.  I cannot respond to the question.  I'm not sure whether

 2     he worked in the police or not."

 3             So I'm not clear at the moment.  Was the witness saying he

 4     doesn't know one way or the other and is merely accepting what

 5     Mr. Cvijetic says to him?  So perhaps that ought to be clarified.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  Excellent.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could you please clarify this.

 9        A.   I know both of these Brano Vlacos.  The guy with a moustache, a

10     sort of stocky guy, he's the general manager of the branch office of

11     Raiffeisen bank in Bijeljina.  Before that he used to work in the customs

12     administration.  Now, whether he had worked for the Vogosca police, that

13     I don't know.

14        Q.   May I continue, Your Honours?

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, we'll now discuss the role of the Vogosca Crisis

18     Staff at the meeting.  Yesterday, you told us -- at least it was your

19     impression that Mr. Vlaco carried out his tasks according to an order by

20     the Crisis Staff.

21        A.   That was my impression.  I cannot tell you that for certain, but

22     I could see that in discussions everyone was looking at the president of

23     the Crisis Staff who was presiding the meeting.  His name was

24     Mr. Koprivica.

25        Q.   Did he act in such a manner that one could tell he was under the

Page 15649

 1     jurisdiction of the Crisis Staff, that he was responsible to them and so

 2     on?

 3        A.   From this point in time I cannot tell you anything more precise.

 4     I just told you what I believe it was.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to have this

 6     verified or corrected in the transcript.  It's Rajko Koprivica.

 7        Q.   Let me show you another document.  1D384, please.

 8             Have you had time to read the document?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You haven't seen this document before, have you?

11        A.   I see it for the first time.

12        Q.   As you can see here, the local organs of the municipality of

13     Zvornik are establishing a prison for more than one municipality.  There

14     is mention of Bratunac and Skelani.

15             This document, they're basing on their own decision proclaiming

16     the state of war as you can see in the heading, but they also make

17     reference to regulations that can be found in Article 5, the same

18     regulation that you use in decisions establishing prisons.

19             When you came there to visit the prison, did you know who had

20     formed it?

21        A.   No, I didn't.  I'm seeing this decision for the first time here.

22     From the point of view how it's drafted, it's a nice decision, but at the

23     time in August of 1992 to make such decisions when the Assembly had

24     already ratified the decision on establishment of prisons, I just cannot

25     believe that someone decided to this.  This is a completely wilful act.

Page 15650

 1     It does not fit into any system.  Was it because of the lack of

 2     communication or was it just that acted on their own accord?  From this

 3     vantage point, I can just say that I'm amazed at this.

 4        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, you told us that you can also view this -- these

 5     issues from the point of view of a legalist, but viewing the situation

 6     realistically, bearing in mind the conditions at the time there, let me

 7     put a specific question to you:  When we look at the fate of the

 8     civilians who went from Ilidza, then to Kula, back to Ilidza and then

 9     waited for an exchange, and then also the persons who were waiting for

10     exchange in Kula or in Zvornik, you will agree with me that the three

11     days that you spoke about does not apply to them, and it's impossible to

12     regulate the situation through laws and regulations?

13        A.   I agree.  I was speaking for the last three days, and conditions

14     in place, that's something else, but this decision, although it's

15     ridiculous and was contrary to the laws of Republika Srpska, still if

16     this decision saved anyone's life, then it was a good decision.  I'm

17     speaking as a human being.  I don't want to enter into discussing the

18     legality, the constitutionality of this decision, but if this decision

19     saved lives, I can only say I welcome such decisions.  I have no other


21        Q.   In your report you had stated that the chief of the local police

22     station, Mr. Lokancevic said that they don't know what to do with the

23     people because the other side does not want to have them exchanged.  It

24     was not for the first time that you came across such a problem.

25        A.   I do remember this very professional man, Milorad Lokancevic whom

Page 15651

 1     I mentioned very often after the war, I found him in a very difficult

 2     situation in Zvornik then, who told me that by taking over the police

 3     station -- when he was taking over the police station, he got as

 4     heritage, so to speak, or responsibility of 46 or 48 -- 48 or 60 people,

 5     maybe, who were grouped according to certain categories, that they are a

 6     burden for him because they are in his prison, that he was trying to

 7     exchange them, and that he informed also Minister Kalinic, who was the

 8     minister of health, who naturally human treatment is something that would

 9     fall under the mandate of the ministry of health.  So this man was

10     sending lists everywhere to deal with this situation, and then I told

11     him, "Well, give me the list, and I will include that in my report.

12     Let's hope that we can save the people."  And I do hope that these people

13     were saved eventually.

14        Q.   You said you believed that they were saved.

15        A.   Yes, because I didn't get any feedback.

16        Q.   All right.  If we link this up with what you've been told at

17     Ilidza, and let me remind you, you said that they'd also told you they

18     don't know what to do, that they find it a problem and that it's not

19     their jurisdiction and so on, that they don't know what to do.

20        A.   Well, I wasn't told that at Ilidza.  I was hold that in Hadzici

21     because the same group of people were then returned to the same location,

22     I think, in September after a failed exchange, to the same place where

23     they had been tortured and humiliated by members of the paramilitaries in

24     the municipality of Hadzici.  The police commander was saying, "God,

25     please help me get rid of this burden."  I was tasked with providing

Page 15652

 1     security for them.  Everybody else is on the front line.  Somebody has to

 2     take care of these people and secure them.  There was one detail if you

 3     want me to tell you something about it.

 4        Q.   Yes, please.

 5        A.   It would be interesting to all the participants.  After the

 6     exchange failed, Amir Masovic was the president of the commission who was

 7     with the Muslim population.  It was late at night.  They could not come

 8     back, and the police commander from Hadzici by the name of

 9     Brano Mijatovic took Mr. Masovic by the hand, and he took him from

10     Kobiljaca to his apartment in Hadzici which is 15 kilometres away.  The

11     Muslims had been tortured and he told him, listen, you can sleep in my

12     apartment.  I guarantee for your life.  Here's my gun.  If something

13     starts happening you can kill me first.  And on the next day he returned

14     him to Sarajevo.

15        Q.   Mr. Amor Masovic later on became rather famous, and I think you

16     were in contact with him.

17        A.   And so we co-operated.  I was a member of the Republika Srpska

18     Commission for Cooperation, and according to me Mr. Masovic is a highly

19     professional official.

20        Q.   Could you please repeat what was the name of the commission that

21     you and Mr. Masovic worked in?

22        A.   We co-operated during the war and after the war.  I was a member

23     of the commission of the Republika Srpska for missing civilians and

24     fighters of Republika Srpska in the period between 1999 and 2001, and in

25     the course of the war since April 1993, up until 1996, or even 1997, I

Page 15653

 1     was a member of the central commission of Republika Srpska for exchange

 2     of prisoners of war and the bodies of those killed.

 3        Q.   Let me just say -- or ask you whether it was your impression that

 4     in the police stations where you had found these people, whether people

 5     were aware that it's not part of their authority to keep -- or

 6     jurisdiction to keep these people but that they don't have any other

 7     solution.

 8        A.   I can only speak about Hadzici and Zvornik, but there people were

 9     saying, "We don't have any solution.  We would like to get rid of this

10     burden.  We don't need it, but there's nothing we can do."

11        Q.   Thank you for answering my questions.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

13     questions for this witness.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Avlijas.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic.  I appear on behalf of Stojan

19     Zupljanin.  I will have some questions of you in regard to your

20     testimony.  The same as with Mr. Cvijetic, since we share the same

21     language, I would kindly ask you to pause, especially in view of the fact

22     that I speak fast.  Do break between questions and answers so that we

23     wouldn't have any problems with interpretation.

24             Mr. Avlijas, I wanted to go back to a topic touched upon by

25     Mr. Cvijetic which had to do with the authority of the Crisis Staffs in

Page 15654

 1     the territory you visited.  When you answered to Mr. Cvijetic's

 2     questions, you said, among other things, if I understood correctly, that

 3     you could notice that the Crisis Staffs were basically the main and sole

 4     authority in those areas, and they expanded their authority so as to

 5     include things within their remit which they ordinarily were not supposed

 6     to.

 7        A.   Well, I can't go into the framework of their authority, but I

 8     know that nothing could be done without them.  For example, in Ilidza,

 9     nothing could be done without the Crisis Staff president Mr. Stojicevic's

10     knowledge.

11        Q.   You were also asked a number of questions about remand prisons or

12     whatever they call them, collection centres for prisoners, depending on

13     what names were used by either of the sides, the Muslim and the Serb.

14             I wanted show you Exhibit P391.  You surely know that besides

15     your commission there were -- there was a number of other commissions in

16     the RS which dealt with the situation in individual collection centres.

17     Let me call them that way.  This is a report of that kind for Sanski

18     Most, of the SJB in Sanski Most, for the CSB commission.

19             Have a look at paragraph 2 whereby it says:

20             "The Crisis Staff of the municipality ordered the investigation

21     centres to be set up.  It made the decision that a prison should be set

22     up in the Betonirka company facilities.  It appointed the warden and

23     assistant warden of the prison, who were given personnel for physical

24     security.  The personnel consisted of members of the former TO and four

25     or five members of the reserve police force."

Page 15655

 1             Mr. Avlijas, it is clear from this that they basically

 2     established a prison and organised prison guards following a decision of

 3     the Ministry of Justice.  Is it not the case?

 4        A.   Well, they basically assumed the authority of the Assembly,

 5     because legislation is not used to establish prisons.  Hence, I have no

 6     comment.  This is the first time I see this document, and there's nothing

 7     I can say.

 8        Q.   And they also organised the prison guards.  They established an

 9     entire prison, including the security staff.

10        A.   Yes.  They organised the whole thing.  Let me have a look

11     further.  Formation of collection investigation centre -- centres was

12     ordered by the Crisis Staff.  They basically had it all in one,

13     collection centre, investigation prison or remand prison, and a gaol.

14     And they also secured security staff from the TO and the reserve police

15     force without the knowledge of the district court which otherwise, under

16     the law, is duty-bound to supervise remand prisons and other such

17     facilities under the Law on Criminal Procedure.  This was in

18     contravention with the instruction of the organisation of prisons under

19     the law, and they basically bypassed any and all decisions of the

20     Assembly.

21        Q.   You are also familiar with the fact that certain representatives

22     of Crisis Staffs even assumed the right to pardon prisoners.

23        A.   Yes, I had such an example in Foca.  I went there in December

24     1992.  Since I was in charge of misdemeanour courts, I went to the court

25     and it was presided over by a female judge, Mandic.  What she told me was

Page 15656

 1     this:  "Just imagine, learned friend, we had the Crisis Staff president

 2     pardoning convicts."  I immediately advised the minister.  And it was a

 3     terrible thing.

 4        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, you were shown an exhibit by the Prosecutor, which

 5     is P1635.

 6        A.   I have already commented upon this report.  Actually, I testified

 7     in full about it.

 8        Q.   Let me ask you this, it has to do with a meeting:  Mr. Milan

 9     Trbojevic who was deputy prime minister was in charge of control and

10     co-ordination between the two ministries, the ministry of the interior

11     and of justice; correct?

12        A.   He was the deputy prime minister in charge of internal policy,

13     and we all know what that encompasses.

14        Q.   If you look closely at the report, especially the last sentence

15     of the first paragraph when those in attendance are mentioned, it is

16     stated they held a meeting on the topic of situation and problems of

17     prisoners camps in this area.

18             That was the point of the meeting, was it not?

19        A.   Yes, but it also touched upon the organisation of military

20     courts, co-operation with the ICRC, and other topical issues.

21        Q.   Mr. Radic informed those in attendance of the number of prisoner

22     centres and the problems they had with such facilities, and we can also

23     find it in your report.

24        A.   That is correct.

25        Q.   As far as I can see in your report, and as far as I can

Page 15657

 1     understand your testimony, you were then told that such prisoners centres

 2     in Omarska and Keraterm were disbanded, and as far as I can see here,

 3     there was still a collection centre in Trnopolje which was not a full

 4     camp.

 5        A.   Yes.  It was commented upon.  We were informed of it at the

 6     meeting.  We were told that it was a town hall and a school where those

 7     people gathered by themselves.  They cooked there, and some of them

 8     awaited their departure to leave for some other country or to simply

 9     leave the territory of Prijedor.

10        Q.   And you say as much in your report by saying:  "Muslims are

11     accommodated in those facilities, who took shelter there in fear of

12     revenge by paramilitaries."

13             Those facilities have a free entry and exit policy.  What you

14     were basically told is that people came there voluntarily, that no one

15     was forced to be there.

16        A.   Well, that's the extent of the information I received at the

17     meeting.  So it was indirect information.  I did not personally go to

18     these locations.

19        Q.   Let's go to page 2 of the document.  The last paragraph.  It has

20     to do with what you have just said.  It says:

21              "Following this joint meeting, a meeting was held especially

22     with presidents of the courts and prosecutors, as well as representatives

23     of the Ministry of Defence.  The topic of the meeting was the

24     organisation and functioning of the Military Court and military

25     prosecutor's offices, which do not function at all in the Krajina."

Page 15658

 1             One of the problems, we did not touch upon your remit directly,

 2     was that the military judiciary as well as parts of the civilian

 3     judiciary did not function properly; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  It is.  The number of crimes under the then law committed

 5     by soldiers was great.  They were all seen as soldiers.  Under the law if

 6     a member of the armed forces commits a crime, it falls under the

 7     jurisdiction of the Military Prosecutor's Office and the military court,

 8     and there were -- this was a cause of frequent conflicts and

 9     misunderstandings between the civilian and military authorities.

10        Q.   Well, the gist of it is that the perpetrators were not adequately

11     prosecuted, which caused a lot of problems in terms of public law and

12     order.

13        A.   Well, yes.  It had an impact on the environment as a whole in

14     those area.

15        Q.   You discussed this with the Prosecutor already.  At the meeting,

16     a question of the murder of several people at Koricanske Stijene was

17     raised.

18        A.   Yes.  The late Dr. Radic, Banja Luka mayor, insisted on receiving

19     some sort of explanation for that.

20        Q.   When Mr. Zupljanin addressed the issue, you said that when he

21     referred to the work of the police he said that the Banja Luka police

22     that they're part of the work and it was up to the prosecution now, the

23     prosecutor's office, and that they should be asked about the fate of the

24     case and why there was nothing being done about it.

25        A.   Yes.  There was arguments exchanged.  People mentioned how many

Page 15659

 1     innocent people were killed for no reason.  This was a rampage, and this

 2     was -- that's how the Banja Luka mayor characterised it.  He insisted on

 3     clearing up the situation.

 4             I saw Stojan Zupljanin for the first time then when he said that

 5     he had established a team which visited this scene to gather information.

 6     I cannot recall everything exactly, but I think the army offered rescue

 7     teams to go down the gorge in order to reach the bodies, which was

 8     otherwise impossible to do.  He said he could do his utmost and submitted

 9     a criminal report to the prosecutor's office, and then he put a question

10     to Mr. Puvacic who was the basic prosecutor as to what he intended to do,

11     because he said that the ball was in his court.

12        Q.   Regarding the suspects or potential perpetrators of the crime, it

13     was said that the crime was committed by those who were escorting the

14     convoy.

15        A.   Well, let's not reinvent the wheel here.  The entire RS knows

16     that it was done by members of the SJB in Prijedor, commanded by

17     Simo Drljaca.  That was no secret.  I believe even some names of those in

18     the escort were circulated, and Mr. Simo Drljaca said that some of the

19     policemen were on the run because he was directly asked about that.

20        Q.   Did you know those suspected of having committed that crime were

21     transferred to Han Pijesak in order to prevent them -- their arrest?

22        A.   Yes, but I'm not familiar with this fact.  I hear of it for the

23     first time.

24        Q.   A part of my question is missing.  I said that in the meantime,

25     they had joined the army of the of the VRS.

Page 15660

 1        A.   This is the first time I hear of it.  I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   And that was when Mr. Zupljanin also said to all those present

 3     about the identification and the apprehension of the suspected

 4     perpetrators, that Mr. Drljaca or -- or, rather, he singled out

 5     Mr. Drljaca and said that they were on the run.

 6        A.   Not only Mr. Zupljanin.  Everybody mentioned Simo Drljaca,

 7     because they were supposed to go to Travnik, and there was an escort,

 8     there was a convoy of buses, and it was within the remit of the public

 9     security at Prijedor.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

11     of his answer, and slow down.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, the interpreters ask that you repeat

13     the last part of your answer and that you attempt to speak more slowly in

14     your answers.  It is hard to interpreter correctly when the speakers are

15     speaking too fast.  Thank you very much, sir.  Please repeat.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It is no secret at all, and it was

17     known on that day at the meeting.  The entire Krajina and all of the RS

18     knew that the police station, or SJB, I'm not sure of the exact name at

19     the time, was in charge of escorting a civilian convoy, a convoy of

20     civilian population, I think predominantly of Muslim ethnicity, I don't

21     know whether there were any Croats among them, from Prijedor, because

22     they were inhabitants of Prijedor, to Travnik, which was under the

23     control of the opposite side.  And everybody present at the meeting knew

24     that the massacre, the crime, had been committed by members of the

25     Prijedor Police Station, the chief of which was Simo Drljaca.  Only it

Page 15661

 1     wasn't known whether it was active-duty police officers or reserve police

 2     officers who had done it.  There was no doubt about whether or not the

 3     crime had been committed or not.  Everything was known.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   It was at that meeting that Mr. Drljaca said that they were on

 6     the run, that they were impossible to find, and that he could do nothing

 7     about it.

 8        A.   It was an ugly story, but there was no normal reaction to such

 9     criticism.

10        Q.   I would like to correct the transcript.  You actually said that

11     it's not appropriate to speak about dead people.

12        A.   Yes, that's what I said.  I apologise.

13             If I may comment.  Imagine an official meeting in Banja Luka, the

14     most high-ranking officials of the entire Krajina, and everybody speaks

15     about a terrible crime without any self-criticism and with -- and there's

16     no responsibility.  That's what I wanted to say.

17        Q.   And not only from the Krajina but also the prime minister and the

18     minister of justice and generals.  Obviously, nobody had enough authority

19     over Simo Drljaca; right?

20        A.   Yes.  That's my conclusion, because if it had been a

21     well-functioning state, Simo Drljaca should have been locked up.  If

22     there is command responsibility in a well-functioning state, then there

23     can be no discussion about it.  A hundred and fifty or 200 people were

24     killed.  The chief of police is at -- at a meeting, and the police

25     officers who had committed a crime were on the run.  I mean, what can you

Page 15662

 1     say about that?

 2        Q.   Mr. Avlijas, you said that after that you attended another

 3     meeting at Prijedor, and it had to do with Trnopolje also.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show the witness

 5     Exhibit P393.

 6        Q.   This is your report from October 1992.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's show the witness item 4.

 8     That's on page 3 of the Serbian.  Actually, the pagination shows 2, but

 9     it's item 4.

10        Q.   Here you speak about the situation in Prijedor, and you mention

11     Trnopolje are, and it says:

12              "The former collection centre at Trnopolje was closed down

13     following the agreement.  However, because of irresponsible people in

14     Prijedor who launched the false information among the Muslim

15     population --"

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn the page in Serbian.

17     The page in English should stay.

18        Q.    "-- that the only way to leave this town is to gather at the

19     Trnopolje collection centre and that the organisation will be by the

20     International Red Cross exclusively."

21             And you go on to speak about the meeting in Prijedor where a

22     representative of the ICRC appear -- appeared.  Do you remember his name?

23        A.   Dr. Beat.  I co-operated very well with him, and it was with him

24     that I visited Doboj.

25        Q.   You said that there was no collection centre in Trnopolje where

Page 15663

 1     people gathered spontaneously.  It was also confirmed by Dr. Beat.

 2        A.   It was stated at the meeting, because when we went to Trnopolje,

 3     there was nothing left.  If I may comment.

 4        Q.   Go ahead.

 5        A.   At that meeting, we were informed that somebody had placed that

 6     story on purpose.  I cannot prove that, however, who was -- who was

 7     behind that, only to have the people gather at the collection centre to

 8     enable others to loot their homes.  That was the basic reason.  That's

 9     what was said to us at the meeting.

10        Q.   Let us display page 4 of this document.  You were saying earlier,

11     answering the Prosecutor's question, from whom you had got that

12     information, from officers of military security regarding Sanski Most,

13     but you also mentioned Kotor Varos.  I believe that you made a mistake

14     there.

15        A.   Teslic, yes.  It was Teslic, actually.

16        Q.   So this part that you wrote in the report refers to Teslic rather

17     than Kotor Varos; right?

18        A.   Yes.  We couldn't access the area to the right of Banja Luka.

19        Q.   And you learned from the officers that there was a POW camp

20     controlled by the Serb military.

21        A.   Yes.  Yes, they told me so.

22        Q.   Does the name Pribinic mean anything to you?  Does it sound

23     familiar, speaking about Teslic?

24        A.   No, it doesn't.  I hear it for the first time now.

25        Q.   Speaking about Manjaca which was discussed here, there is no

Page 15664

 1     doubt that it was a POW camp controlled and commanded by the army; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  It was under the exclusive authority of the army.  They

 3     provided security.  It so happened that I was involved in the exchange

 4     that I conducted with the late Ivo Rosic and Dr.  Branko Dokic with the

 5     Croatian side from Mostar for Croatian and Serb civilians at Pakovo near

 6     Sibenik.  And when I visited Manjaca, a major was the commander of the

 7     camp.  I forget his name.  It was only the army that had authority over

 8     that camp.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Avlijas.  I have no further questions.

10        A.   You're welcome.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner.

12                           Re-examination by Ms. Korner:

13        Q.   You were -- sorry.  You were asked a moment ago by Mr. Krgovic

14     about Mr. Drljaca.  It was put to you that nobody had enough authority

15     over Mr. Drljaca, and you said:

16             "Yes, that's your conclusion, because had it been a

17     well-functioning state, Simo Drljaca should have been locked up."

18             At that meeting there was a representative of the Banja Luka

19     Corps you told us.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Stojan Zupljanin was there?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Mr. Subotic, the minister of defence was there?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Trbojevic, the deputy prime minister was there.

Page 15665

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Any one of those people had the authority, did they not, had they

 3     wished to exercise it, to ensure that Mr. Drljaca was arrested?

 4        A.   I phrased it correctly, "in a well-functioning state," but nobody

 5     could harm Simo Drljaca.  He was the sheriff of Prijedor.  And I can say

 6     openly I believe that I told the investigators when they asked me about

 7     staffing and dealing with personnel issues, it was the SDS that was

 8     consulted about everything, and I asked whether -- or, rather, I was

 9     asked whether a minister could appoint anyone, and I answered that he

10     could when he got approval to do so.  And I know that everybody was --

11     had a hard time replacing Simo Drljaca.  Well, from the perspective of a

12     well-functioning state this may seem odd, but -- and I agree that he

13     shouldn't have been at the meeting at all, that he should have been in

14     gaol if he was responsible for the death of 200 people.

15        Q.   Yes.  Do you know how large the Banja Luka Corps was, which was

16     then the 1st Krajina Corps?  How many people it had.

17        A.   I don't know, believe me.  I know that it was a large unit, the

18     biggest corps, bearing in mind the area of responsibility of the corps.

19        Q.   Were you aware that there were Special Police available to

20     Mr. Zupljanin in Banja Luka, a group of Special Police?

21        A.   Believe me, I don't know about that.  I'm not competent to speak

22     about the power of individual MUP officials.  I don't know what was

23     within whose authority.

24        Q.   All right.  But from what you're saying, there was sufficient

25     manpower to arrest Simo Drljaca had anybody wanted to do it?

Page 15666

 1        A.   I cannot comment that.  Every Crisis Staff and every region was

 2     actually a state within a state, and what I'm about to say is my opinion,

 3     so for what it's worth:  Simo Drljaca was the untouchable boss of

 4     Prijedor and its surroundings.  In the eyes of some shady people, he was

 5     their idol, and it was carefully considered what to do when it came to

 6     replacing people, and I believe it was the SDS's fault that they didn't

 7     allow the professionals to do their work.

 8        Q.   You say that he was the untouchable boss.  Is that because nobody

 9     wanted to touch him?

10        A.   Believe me, I cannot answer this question.  I told you that those

11     were my opinions and my observations from going to the field every day.

12     I wasn't in the political structures.  I didn't decide about anything.  I

13     never joined any party, and that's why I was left without a job.  I was

14     fired from my job in 1992.

15        Q.   You told, I think it was Mr. Cvijetic, that you were appointed to

16     the Commission of Exchange in 1993.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Was Simo Drljaca appointed to that commission as well?

19        A.   Unfortunately, yes.  One of the members of the commission was

20     Simo Drljaca as representative of the MUP, because they tried to get rid

21     of him and appointed him to such a commission dealing with these

22     humanitarian issues, which is -- which I cannot understand.  And he had

23     in the meantime been relieved of his position in Prijedor.

24        Q.   So he could be relieved of his position in Prijedor.  He could be

25     removed from Prijedor and sent to the commission, but he couldn't be

Page 15667

 1     arrested.

 2        A.   I cannot answer this comment of yours.  What I'm saying is had

 3     the state been functioning properly, he should have been arrested.  Why

 4     wasn't he arrested?  I don't know.  I'm answering you in such a way as to

 5     explain what I would have done had I been in power, for instance.

 6        Q.   He was appointed to the commission as the representative of the

 7     MUP.  Do you know who was responsible in the MUP for making that

 8     appointment?

 9        A.   The minister, Ratko Adzic.

10        Q.   You also were shown the document from Sanski Most, the report of

11     the SJB in August, which showed that instead of the four prisoners that

12     you had been told about, there were some 1.655 prisoners in Sanski Most.

13     Did anybody every say -- tell you that before you saw that report today?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Who was that?  And when?

16        A.   In.  No, I said yes, yes I can answer.  This is an information

17     that was made in August, this information from Sanski Most, and I was

18     there in October.  I know that all the prisoners from that part of

19     Krajina were driven away, that they were at Manjaca.  So if there was

20     more than a thousand of them, that they were transferred to Manjaca.  One

21     can find documentation confirming that.

22        Q.   Yes, but I'm sorry, what you put into the report that you

23     delivered to Mr. Mandic -- and perhaps we'd better have it up again.

24     It's document -- so sorry.

25        A.   In October 1992.

Page 15668

 1        Q.   Yes.  I'm sorry.  I've lost the exhibit number again.

 2             MS. KORNER:  It's P393.  Can we go, please, to the part of Sanski

 3     Most, which is on the fifth page in English and the fourth in B/C/S.

 4        Q.   What you wrote down was:

 5             "The information that there is a camp in Sanski Most is not

 6     correct.  In that area, only four people were taken prisoner and

 7     transferred to Manjaca during combat activities."

 8             Now, had you been given information before, and that's why you

 9     were asking about Sanski Most, that considerably more people had been

10     captured and taken prisoner?

11        A.   Well, the people who were detained in Sanski Most in August, who

12     were in Keraterm, who were in other camps such as Omarska, and this whole

13     stretch between Banja Luka and Prijedor, they were all transferred, three

14     or 4.000 of them were transferred to Manjaca.  At the time of drafting of

15     this report of mine which was in October, the officer from the corps

16     informed me that there were additional four persons who had been captured

17     and transferred to Manjaca.  This is what this is about.

18        Q.   I see.  So what you intended to convey by this, do I understand

19     this correctly, was that since August, there were only four other people

20     who had been taken prisoner.

21        A.   Between the drafting of my report -- or during the time while I

22     was drafting my report, he told me that during that period four other

23     prisoners were captured because there may have been fighting there, and

24     that all four of them were transferred in the meantime to Manjaca in

25     addition to all the others that had been transferred earlier.  Of course,

Page 15669

 1     those who were still alive.

 2        Q.   You see, would you -- if you read that report, it sounds as

 3     though throughout the whole period only four people had been taken

 4     prisoner.  Would you -- would you accept that?

 5        A.   No, I cannot accept that.  I was drafting a report about the

 6     situation at the time and not about how many people were captured

 7     throughout the war.  I was told to go and check how many people were

 8     there captured.  I went to Vlasenica, Zvornik, and all the other

 9     locations that are mentioned here in the report.

10        Q.   Right.  Thank you very much, Mr. Avlijas.  That's all I ask.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Avlijas, thank you very much for your assistance

12     to the Tribunal.  You are now released, and we wish you a safe journey

13     back to your home.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you for understanding.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, where are you in terms of witnesses?

17             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, never have I seen a more

18     topsy-turvy set of days, because the estimate for this witness was

19     something in the region of four hours cross-examination, which is why we

20     were so anxious to conclude him.  In fact, we can, if Your Honours rise,

21     we can start the next witness at 12.15, which witness is -- ST-251.  And

22     he has protective measures.

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE HALL:  We are advised that he won't be available until

25     12 --

Page 15670

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  He wouldn't be in the room until 12.15 so we're

 3     probably looking at 12.30.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Do we -- once we start him, where do we go?  Do we

 6     still need the reserved session this afternoon?

 7             MS. KORNER:  Obviously, Your Honours, it would help, because he's

 8     supposed to be a short -- Your Honour, this witness is short, and if

 9     Your Honours were to sit a little bit into the afternoon, we could

10     probably complete him today.  In fact, we may be able to complete him.  I

11     don't think Mr. Hannis, who is calling the witness, intends to be more

12     than about 30 minutes with him.  I'm told 45 minutes.

13             JUDGE HALL:  So we reconvene at 12.30.

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just add something.  We only

15     now received the documents concerning the coming witness.  He was

16     scheduled to testify on Monday.  We certainly cannot cross-examine the

17     witness at the moment regardless of the fact it's going to be a short

18     witness and he's going to be discussing very limited set of facts in

19     relation to adjudicated facts.  If we could cross-examine this witness on

20     Monday maybe.  The Prosecution can do their direct now and then we would

21     like to do the cross-examination on Monday.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] After all the topsy-turviness

23     concerning the previous witness, we believed that this following witness

24     would start on Monday.  I don't even have the documentation necessary to

25     go through, but maybe we could compensate for the time we've spent

Page 15671

 1     yesterday by doing this on Monday.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, we've also --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  I've heard what Mr. Krgovic and Mr. Cvijetic have

 4     said, but I thought the switching this witness on Monday only occurred in

 5     the very latest schedule that came out this morning, so I'm surprised

 6     that each of them has indicated that they're embarrassed by having to

 7     cross-examine him today.

 8             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours, also I don't -- I'm told that we

10     applied for protective measures which I don't think have been objected

11     to, but I don't think we've had a formal decision granting them.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What are you asking?

13             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, the --

14                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

15             MS. KORNER:  The documents are only photographs and maps, no

16     other documents.

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this witness wasn't

18     scheduled after of Mr. Avlijas.  It was Mr. ST-227.  That's the problem

19     that we're facing.  We received the proofing notes and other documents

20     only ten minutes ago.

21                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, in the plan that I have for this

23     week, clearly Witness ST-251 was scheduled to begin his testimony today.

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm told we'll offer them either.

25     They can have 227 or 251.  Both of them are here and both are ready to

Page 15672

 1     go.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So with which of them would you prefer to --

 3             MS. KORNER:  We would prefer to call 251 because he is the one

 4     who has problems with his job and would like to get back if at all

 5     possible.  And is also shorter than the other witness.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Counsels, I think Witness 251 is -- is one of the

 7     adjudicated fact witnesses.

 8             Is that correct, Mrs. Korner?

 9             MS. KORNER:  It is, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And so the testimony that he is going to offer is

11     going to be very, very limited, and I wonder if we postpone him until,

12     say, 1.00 or even 1.30, if that would give you enough time to -- to just

13     flip through his -- his documents and then be ready for his

14     cross-examination.  I think it would be helpful if we could finish him

15     off by the end of this day's session.

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.

17     Cross-examination of the witnesses that are here for adjudicated facts

18     should be very short providing the Prosecutor's Office keeps to that

19     topic, maybe five or so minutes.

20             What Judge Harhoff suggested would be fine.  If we start at 1.30,

21     by quarter to 2.00 we would all be finished.  Mr. Cvijetic I believe will

22     not have any questions in cross-examination for this witness.

23             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, I don't follow that.  Your Honours, that

24     can't be right.  If we adjourn until 1.30 and there's

25     examination-in-chief, cross-examination will not be completed by quarter

Page 15673

 1     to 2.00.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  I was saying I was in

 3     favour of this first version that was presented by Judge Harhoff, namely

 4     that we start at 1.00.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  So the -- so before we adjourn, I just want the --

 7     to be clear as to what we're doing, and I invite the court officer to

 8     correct me if I get it wrong.  We rise now.  We resume at 1.00, and we

 9     sit until, at the very latest, 2.30.

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.  So the -- again, we appreciate the

12     co-operation of the accused in this regard and those who have the custody

13     of them would have noted what I would have said in terms of time.  So we

14     resume at 1.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Firstly, for the record, please note that we

19     reconvene for this final session of today under Rule 15 bis.

20             Secondly, the Trial Chamber affirms in accordance with the Rules

21     the protective measures that have previously been afforded to this

22     witness.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  In conjunction with that,

24     his -- his pseudonym that he had from the previous case was a case

25     specific number, and our request was that he assigned the number ST-251

Page 15674

 1     for our purposes in this trial.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So could the witness be invited to make the

 3     solemn declaration first of all, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare I will speak the

 5     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, sir.  You may be seated.

 7             The -- I remind you that the solemn declaration that you have

 8     made imposes a new obligation to give truthful testimony subject to the

 9     penalties that the Tribunal is empowered to impose for giving false or

10     misleading testimony.

11             The first thing I would invite the Prosecution to do is to -- you

12     have the pseudonym sheet, I suppose.

13             You're going to be handed a sheet of paper.  If you would confirm

14     that that correctly indicates your name and other relevant particulars.

15                           WITNESS:  ST-251

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE HALL:  And if you're so satisfied, we would invite you to

18     sign that.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It is correct.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So it's admitted as an exhibit under

21     seal.

22             And I would remind you that the purpose of that is because

23     exceptionally, the Chamber has afforded you certain protective measures

24     of a pseudonym, and therefore in the course of your testimony you would

25     be referred to either by that pseudonym or by -- just referred to as

Page 15675

 1     "Mr. Witness" to facilitate your testimony.  I needn't explain to you.

 2     As I said, this is an exceptional measure, because as far as possible the

 3     proceedings of the Tribunal are held entirely in public, but for reasons

 4     which would have been fully canvassed when you last appeared before the

 5     Tribunal, the -- you have been granted the modified protection --

 6     protective measures of a pseudonym and --

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Facial distortion, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And facial distortion.

 9             Thank you, Mr. Hannis.

10             The -- yes, please.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, I would like to

12     mention that the pseudonym sheet for Witness ST-251 shall be given

13     Exhibit P01636.  Thank you, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             The -- you have been called to give testimony within a very

16     limited scope today, and therefore we fully expect that you -- your

17     testimony would be completed before we rise for the day in a little over

18     an hour.  So the -- with that I would invite Mr. Hannis to begin.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  This witness has been

20     called particularly to address adjudicated fact 1145.  However, he -- I

21     do need to reference another adjudicated fact connected with him, which

22     is 1138.  That was accepted by the Trial Chamber in its entirety, but

23     just in setting the background for this witness, I will make reference to

24     it so you know who he is and where he's from.

25                           Examination by Mr. Hannis:

Page 15676

 1        Q.   Sir, could you tell us where you were living in early 1992.

 2        A.   In Sanski Most, in the village of Hrustovo.

 3        Q.   And do you recall when the war broke out in the vicinity of your

 4     village, approximately?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you recall what month that was?

 7        A.   It was end of May 1992, I think.

 8        Q.   And what did you do when the fighting began in your village in

 9     May 1992?

10        A.   I was not employed.  I wasn't doing anything special.  I was at

11     home.

12        Q.   And did you -- did you remain in the village throughout the

13     fighting or did you leave the area?

14        A.   The village of Hrustovo I left before the fighting that took

15     place in Hrustovo.

16        Q.   Where did you go?

17        A.   To the neighbouring village, Klijevci, where my grandmother

18     lived, and my uncle as well.

19        Q.   That's also the municipality of Sanski Most?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I want to tell you about an adjudicated fact that we have in this

22     case and ask you just a couple of questions about this.  Around -- this

23     is adjudicated fact 1138, for the record, which says on or around 27 June

24     1992, local Serb reservists in olive-grey uniforms arrived at the Muslim

25     hamlet of Kenjari.  It goes on to say that 20 Muslim men were arrested

Page 15677

 1     and interrogated, that Vlado Vrkes, president of the Sanski Most SDS

 2     assured them they had nothing to fear.  They were led by Serb soldiers to

 3     a house in the hamlet of Blazevici, pardon my pronunciation.  Soldiers

 4     threw explosives into the house and then opened fire with rifles on those

 5     trying to escape.  The bodies of the dead were taken back into the house

 6     and the house was set on fire.

 7             Do you know who those 20 men were?  I'm not asking you to name

 8     them right now, just did you know those men?

 9        A.   Yes, I knew those men.  They were inhabitants of hamlets of

10     Kenjari and Zukici, and one or two men whose houses were a bit remote,

11     but all of them were part of Klijevci.

12        Q.   Were you one of that group of 20 men?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What happened to the other 19?

15        A.   They were killed.

16        Q.   How did you -- well, what did you do when you apparently survived

17     and managed to get away?  Where did you go?

18        A.   From the house in Blazevici I went to Hrustovo to my hamlet where

19     I lived.  I decided to go home and see what the situation was there.

20        Q.   I'm sorry, I don't think we asked you before, but your ethnicity

21     is?

22        A.   I am a Bosniak, a Muslim.

23        Q.   How long did you -- well, that was -- I'm sorry.  That event was

24     on or about the 27th of June.  How long --

25        A.   Yes.  That was a month after Hrustovo was taken by the Serbian

Page 15678

 1     forces and after they'd done what they'd done there.

 2        Q.   Did you have occasion to go to the village of Tomina in Sanski

 3     Most municipality?

 4        A.   Yes.  After I reached my home and saw what it looked like, that

 5     there were no inhabitants there, I headed towards the village of Tomina.

 6     While I was still in Zukici or Kenjari, I knew that inhabitants of

 7     Hrustovo and Vrhpolje were driven away to a place called Tominska

 8     Palanka, which is part of Tomina where exclusively Muslims resided.

 9        Q.   And how long did you remain at Tomina before you went or were

10     taken somewhere else, approximately?

11        A.   I think four days.

12        Q.   What happened at the end of those four days?

13        A.   So on the fourth day, in the morning, we heard a police car.

14     Through a bullhorn they were calling all the inhabitants of Hrustovo,

15     Vrhpolje and Kamicak to come out to the main road between Sanski Most and

16     Kljuc.  So they asked us to appear there.

17        Q.   Did you do that, and, if so, what happened then?

18        A.   Yes.  We all came out, all of us, from Hrustovo, Vrhpolje, and

19     Kamicak.  We all went to the main road and there we were put into buses

20     and then we headed towards Sanski Most.

21        Q.   And who was -- who was doing that?  Who was gathering you

22     together and putting you on the buses and sending you to Sanski Most?

23     What people were doing that?

24        A.   The police and the Serbian Army.  I remember well that the driver

25     of this Golf vehicle was a teacher at high school in Sanski Most.  His

Page 15679

 1     surname was Banjac, but I don't remember or don't know his first name.

 2        Q.   And the police -- you said the Serbian Army.  Were the police

 3     also Serbian?

 4        A.   Yes.  I said both the police and the army.

 5        Q.   And where were you taken?

 6        A.   The buses brought us to a -- a hole in Sanski Most.  Actually, it

 7     was located on the road between Sanski Most and Bosanska Krupa, not far

 8     from Sanski Most.  It was an industrial area, and there was this large

 9     hole there, and that's where they got us out of the buses.

10        Q.   Do you remember the name of this hall in the industrial area?

11        A.   I later found out it was called Krings, most probably a company

12     from Austria making cables was located there.

13        Q.   What happened when you arrived at Krings in Sanski Most?

14        A.   We had to enter it and wait.  We simply didn't know what was

15     going on.

16        Q.   Had you been told why you were taken to this location?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Who at that end in Sanski Most at Krings was taking you off the

19     bus and placing you inside the building?

20        A.   The escort was provided by the Serbian Army.

21        Q.   And from that point how long did you stay at Krings before you

22     were eventually released?

23        A.   I think it was a month, give or take a day.

24        Q.   I'd like to show you first a -- a map that is exhibit P411.37.

25     This is a -- this is a document that's already in evidence, sir, and it

Page 15680

 1     will be up on your screen in a moment.  I just want to ask you if you can

 2     confirm something for me.

 3             While it's coming up, I can tell you it's a map of Sanski Most

 4     town area with some photographs on the side.  And on the map, on the left

 5     side, near the middle you'll see the number 4 and the word "Krings" under

 6     it.  Does that accurately show the relative location of where Krings was

 7     in Sanski Most town?

 8        A.   I think so.

 9        Q.   And the road we see running above Krings, do you know where that

10     road went to?  The one that runs from left to right above Krings.

11        A.   The road goes from Sanski Most, Lucica Palanka, towards Bosanska

12     Krupa.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like next to show you Exhibit P414.  Can you tell

14     us what that's a picture of?

15        A.   Am I allowed to stand up, because I have a reflection on the

16     screen.

17        Q.   Yes, you may.

18        A.   Yes.  That's the industrial hall where we were held.  But it's

19     been refurbished and there seem to be some -- there seems to be some

20     machinery there which wasn't there before.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And one more photo.  If I could show you P415.  And

22     again if you need to stand up or you need a hard copy of the photo, let

23     me know.

24        A.   I can see much better from here.  This is most likely the hall,

25     but there were no trucks or material inside when we were there.

Page 15681

 1        Q.   Thank you.  At the time you were placed in the Krings Hall, what

 2     was inside, if anything?

 3        A.   The hall was almost empty.  You could see old pallets and parts

 4     of machinery that had been left behind.

 5        Q.   How many of you were taken to Krings Hall when you first went

 6     there?  Approximately.

 7        A.   The first day when we arrived there?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   The hall was quite full, so I think between 6 and 700 people.

10     There were children and women there as well as the elderly and

11     middle-aged men.

12        Q.   When you first arrived there was there anybody already there or

13     was it empty?

14        A.   When we arrived, the hall was empty, but the buses kept coming,

15     as well as trucks.

16        Q.   And the 6 to 700 people that you mentioned, what was -- the 600

17     to 700 people you mentioned, what was the ethnicity of all of you?

18        A.   Muslim.  Bosniaks.

19        Q.   And where were those people from?  I know you were brought from

20     Tomina, but were all these people from Tomina or other villages in Sanski

21     Most municipality?

22        A.   The people who were there were from the villages of Hrustovo,

23     Vrhpolje, and Kamicak who had been driven out from places such as Tomina,

24     Caplje, et cetera.  We were all put together in the hall.

25        Q.   Now, you told us before that I think you remained there for a

Page 15682

 1     month.  What about the women and children that were first detained with

 2     you?  How long did they stay?

 3        A.   We spent the first night there together, and early the next

 4     morning some soldiers arrived who said that the women, children, and

 5     those over 60, as well as the handicapped, were to leave on board buses

 6     and trucks.  They were taken elsewhere.

 7        Q.   Approximately how many of you men, then, of I guess ages between

 8     16 and 60 remained behind?

 9        A.   I can't say precisely.  I think between a hundred and a hundred

10     and fifty.  I don't know exactly.

11        Q.   And who was guarding you while you were there at Krings?

12        A.   We were locked inside the hall, and outside there were Serb

13     soldiers.

14        Q.   Did anyone tell you why you were being detained during your month

15     there?

16        A.   No.  Nobody told us anything.

17        Q.   And how long did the Serb soldiers continue to guard you during

18     your month there?

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, an objection to this

20     line of questioning.  Any further questions go beyond the testimony of

21     this witness and the purpose of his testimony, which is the adjudicated

22     fact regarding the humanitarian conditions and the location where the

23     witness was held.  If one bears in mind this Trial Chamber's decision by

24     which it is stated that testimony of this time needs -- of this kind

25     needs to be focused exclusively on the adjudicated fact for which the

Page 15683

 1     witness is being called and possibly to testify to a certain extent on

 2     the background.  In any case, this line of questioning goes well beyond

 3     the context itself and the adjudicated fact.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, if I -- if I may.  I disagree.  I'm

 5     laying the foundation to get to precisely the portion of the adjudicated

 6     fact that was stricken by the Trial Chamber in its decision, the last

 7     sentence in fact 1145, and I have to lay some foundation before I can ask

 8     him the specific questions related to that.  If I may continue.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, but bear in mind what Mr. Krgovic has correctly

10     stated about the circumscription concerning your questions and come

11     rapidly to the adjudicated fact.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I am, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Did you -- did you recall my last question?  How long did Serb

14     soldiers continue to guard you from your first day there?  Were they

15     guarding you for the entire month?

16        A.   No they were there for a week perhaps.  After that I believe the

17     reserve police from Sanski Most came, although I'm not certain whether

18     they were reserve policemen or active-duty policemen.

19             MR. KRGOVIC:  It was not mentioned in the summary of this witness

20     or in adjudicated fact the role of the police in the specific adjudicated

21     fact.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, this witness was listed as the witness

23     to call to address the adjudicated fact 1145 and that portion which was

24     stricken out.  I see no way the Defence could not see that he was going

25     to testify about police involvement.

Page 15684

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The Chamber agrees.  Please move on, Mr. Hannis.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  I would indicate that the 65 ter summary indicates

 3     that about 15 days -- after about 15 days, the police took over guard

 4     duties.

 5        Q.   Was there a difference in how you were treated after the police

 6     began guarding you as compared to how you were treated by the soldiers?

 7        A.   Yes.  During the time when we were guarded by the soldiers, our

 8     relatives, parents, or our wives could bring food to us, to the hall, and

 9     we could talk to them.  However, when the police arrived, our relatives

10     could no longer enter, and they started beating us.

11        Q.   Who started beating you?

12        A.   The policemen who stood guard.

13        Q.   Of the police who were guarding you during those last couple of

14     weeks that you were at Krings, did you know or recognise any of them?

15        A.   Yes.  I knew a young guy of my age.  We attended school together.

16     We weren't in the same class, but we frequently ran into each other.

17        Q.   Do you recall his name or nickname?

18        A.   I think his first name is Srecko, and I'm not sure whether that's

19     actually his first name or his nickname.  In any case, he lived in the

20     building across the street from the high school centre in Sanski Most.

21        Q.   And anyone else that you recognised among the policemen?

22        A.   I was only 20 then, and I didn't know many people in Sanski Most.

23        Q.   While you were detained there, were you interrogated?

24        A.   Towards the end of the month I spent there, we were interrogated

25     for a day by the policemen.

Page 15685

 1        Q.   Did you recognise any of the policemen that interrogated you?

 2        A.   During the interrogation, some other policemen came who I believe

 3     were more senior to those reserve of policemen.  I knew one of them from

 4     before since my uncle had been a policeman in Sanski Most.  Occasionally

 5     would I see that particular policeman whose wife was a secretary in the

 6     high school.  I think he was -- his name was Drago Macura, although I

 7     believe Macura is only his nickname.  In any case, he was strongly built

 8     and had a moustache.  I remember him well.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mentioned while the police were guarding you

10     that there were some beatings.  How were these beatings carried out?

11     What were they done with, if you know.  Was it feet and hands, or were

12     any instruments used?

13        A.   Yes.  I remember they used batons a lot, rifle butts, fists,

14     feet, a rod that is otherwise used to clean a rifle.  They also used that

15     to hit us with.

16        Q.   Did you know a man named Ejub Masic?

17        A.   Ejub Masic.  I didn't know that man.  In any case, he was brought

18     in front of the hall one evening where he was beaten up.  Later on, they

19     threw him inside.  The next day, the next morning, when we awoke he was

20     dead.

21        Q.   And when you say they threw him inside, who -- who was guarding

22     you at the time this event occurred?

23        A.   Well, he was brought in front of the hall, beaten up and then

24     thrown inside the hall, and at that point in time we were guarded by the

25     policemen.  The army had already gone.

Page 15686

 1        Q.   Did you see who did the actual beating in front of the hall?

 2        A.   I couldn't see that since the hall was closed and it was dark

 3     outside.  Even when he was thrown inside, I couldn't make out who threw

 4     him in.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, after your month of being detained at Krings,

 6     what happened to you?  Where did you go?

 7        A.   Before my release, I had been interrogated by those

 8     higher-ranking policemen, as I said.  They wanted to know where I had

 9     been, where I had weapons, what I did.  And after that, all those 40 men

10     who had been there since day one were released.  I think everyone was

11     released, because I was among the last ones to be released.

12        Q.   Had you had any weapons or engaged in any fighting?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I don't have any further questions for you.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Before the Defence begins its

16     cross-examination, I just have one question for the witness relating to

17     the interrogations that you mentioned, and my question is if any beatings

18     or maltreatment took place during the interrogations.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I believe so.  When I was being

20     interrogated, the policeman I mentioned, Drago Macura, kept moving from

21     one room to the next.  There were several policemen interrogating us at

22     the same time.  He entered our room and asked the policeman interrogating

23     me whether he needed help when interrogating.  But whoever -- it implied

24     beating me up, because he was holding a bat.  The policeman responded

25     negatively, and at that time he didn't hit me.

Page 15687

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But did you hear any beatings going on in the

 2     adjacent rooms where other interrogations were made or were going on?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  When I returned to the hall after

 4     the interrogation, we talked about it, and some people told me that they

 5     were well beaten up.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Krgovic.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   My name is Dragan Krgovic and I appear on behalf of Stojan

12     Zupljanin.  I will have some questions of you regarding your testimony.

13     Just one or two words of warning.  Since we understand each other and use

14     the same language, please wait for a moment or two before answering so as

15     to avoid any overlap.

16             Another thing, when I'm done putting my questions, please look at

17     the red light on my microphone, because you enjoy certain protective

18     measures.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Do we have voice and face

20     distortion?  Very well then.

21        Q.   I just didn't want anyone else to hear your voice, but you can

22     disregard this remark.

23             I would start from the end of the Prosecutor's questions.  If I

24     understood well, in the hall at Krings itself, there were no

25     interrogations.  You were taken outside to be interrogated; is that

Page 15688

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  It took place in a small building in front of the hall

 3     where there used to be offices of those who were in charge of the

 4     company.  On the photographs I was shown, that building is no more.

 5        Q.   That is how I understood it.  So in the hall itself there was no

 6     interrogation.  You were taken outside into that building where the

 7     policeman interrogated you, following which you were returned into the

 8     hall; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   They wanted to know about your movements in the past few months

11     and whether you had any weapons, as well as whether you took part in

12     combat or in any way assisted or abetted this organisation of support

13     offered by the Muslim population in that area.

14        A.   Yes.  They wanted to know if I knew who had weapons and who fired

15     them.  Since I had learned earlier on that some people from my village

16     had been killed, I simply told them that those were the people who had

17     weapons.

18        Q.   I looked at your statement where I believe you mention your

19     personal weapons.  I believe you said that you had a handgun which you

20     handed over to your neighbour when there was a request to hand over

21     weapons.  Do you recall that?

22        A.   I don't.

23        Q.   That is actually your testimony --

24             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, can I have a precise reference, because

25     I think his testimony was that his relative had a gun and he passed that

Page 15689

 1     gun to someone else.  So can we have a page number?

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It is 8054.

 3        Q.   I believe you said that it was your father, if I understand the

 4     testimony well, had a weapon that was given to a neighbour who in turn

 5     handed it over to the Serbs.

 6        A.   Are you referring to my previous testimony?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   The weapon was given to him, and the man took it to Klijevci, the

 9     neighbouring village where the Serb army was, and that man never

10     returned.

11        Q.   Were you also asked about that particular piece?  I suppose your

12     father had a licence for it?

13        A.   It was not a licensed gun.  I don't know whether they aimed for

14     that or whether they wanted to know whether I had been in the armed

15     forces or something else.  I don't know.

16        Q.   In response to my learned friend's question about when you

17     arrived in the Krings Hall, I -- you said something that I wanted to link

18     to a certain document.  I would like to show you the document indicating

19     the date as of which the centre existed.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P391 shown to

21     the witness.

22        Q.   I don't believe you have had occasion to see this document

23     before, not even in proofing.  In any case, this was an SJB Sanski Most

24     report on the existence of such centres following a request of the CSB in

25     Banja Luka.  It is stated therein that there had been a centre in the gym

Page 15690

 1     which was then emptied and that as of the 1st of August, 1992, the gym is

 2     empty, and another collection centre was established in the hall of the

 3     Krings factory.  So my question to you is whether before arriving at

 4     Krings you had been in this gym, or did you come to Krings from your

 5     place of residence?

 6        A.   Do you mean whether I was in the gym?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Do you recall the date when you were released from Krings?

10        A.   I think it's in my statement.  I can't recall the date now, but I

11     think I left Sanski Most on the 18th of August, and before leaving Sanski

12     Most I spent some two weeks with a relative there.  So I'd say it was in

13     early August.

14        Q.   Another question.  If you look at the next paragraph of this

15     document, it is stated that the prison was established as well as a

16     warden appointed, and that the staff came from the reserve police force

17     and the TO.  Do you know of any such warden at the Krings?

18        A.   Yes.  It was a young policeman.  When the police arrived as

19     opposed to the other policeman, he had a full police uniform, a fatigue,

20     a camouflage police uniform, actually.  I think he mentioned his first

21     and last name, but it escapes me now.  He was a handsome guy, dark

22     haired, and I believe he said he had worked in the prison in Bosanska

23     Gradiska or in Bosanska Gradiska itself.

24        Q.   In the prison there?

25        A.   Well, I don't know whether he worked in the prison, but I think

Page 15691

 1     by occupation he was a policeman.

 2        Q.   Regarding the facility where you were held, please look at the

 3     next page of this document.  Have a look at the fourth paragraph from the

 4     top.  The report describes the conditions at Krings.

 5        A.   The fourth paragraph?  Can you please be more specific?

 6        Q.   The fourth paragraph from the top.  It begins with "The

 7     accommodation of all persons -- all persons were quartered in the solidly

 8     built facilities of the sports hall."

 9             Yes.  There is a mention made of the conditions.  It is said that

10     the prisoners were given blankets and something to lie on, as well as

11     other things brought by their families.

12        A.   At the beginning when we arrived there, there was nothing in the

13     hall.  There were only pallets which we put on the floor so as not to

14     sleep on the concrete floor.  Later on our mothers and families brought

15     some blankets or Styrofoam sheets, but in any case, there were no

16     amenities that could be used for sleeping.

17        Q.   And it goes on in the following paragraph where we see about the

18     gymnasium and Krings, that food was provided by the relatives of the

19     detained.

20        A.   While I was there, my mother fed me.  I didn't receive anything

21     from the Red Cross.  However, there were many more people, and I don't

22     know whether they got anything from the Red Cross.

23        Q.   The last paragraph says:

24              "During their stay, persons in the collection and investigation

25     centre received adequate medical care from the Sanski Most health centre,

Page 15692

 1     the personnel of which visited the prisoners and offered essential health

 2     care services."

 3             Where you seen by a doctor or a nurse from those facilities?

 4        A.   Let me give you an example.  There was a Muslim detained with us.

 5     I believe his name was Enes Karabeg.  He was a doctor by profession.  He

 6     still works there as a doctor today.  There was a man who was in great

 7     pain, because while he was asleep some bug entered his ear, and then he

 8     banged on the door to call the guards because he wanted somebody to

 9     remove that bug because he was in great pain.  They took him away, and

10     later on it was all right.  But we weren't visited inside by any medical

11     personnel.

12        Q.   And my last question:  Answering the question of the Prosecutor,

13     you mentioned that man who was brought to your hall and died on the next

14     day.  You said to the Prosecutor that you didn't see him being beaten up

15     or who beat him.  You only saw him when he was brought inside.

16        A.   He was beaten just outside the hall.  We could hear the beating

17     and those who mistreated him swearing and him giving cries of pain.

18     However, I didn't see who brought him in because it was dark.

19        Q.   But he was not one of those who were detained with you in that

20     same hall?

21        A.   From before, no.  He was brought on that evening, and he died

22     before the morning.

23        Q.   And finally, after the interrogation, when you said that you had

24     nothing to do with any military activity you were released; right?

25        A.   Yes.  After the interrogation, I received a letter of release

Page 15693

 1     from that facility, and that made it possible for me to leave and go to

 2     Sanski Most.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

 5     questions.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No questions for this witness,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Anything in redirect, Mr. Hannis?

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Just a few if I may.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Hannis:

11        Q.   Regarding the man who was beaten outside and who later died, did

12     the entire beating take place outside the hall?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you mentioned the interrogations.  How many times or days

15     were you interrogated during your 30 days of detention in Krings?

16        A.   I was interrogated on one day for about 10 to 15 minutes.

17        Q.   And who -- who took you to and from Krings when you were taken to

18     the interrogation office?

19        A.   Then they were all police officers.  There was no more army

20     around.  They were the guards and also the ones who came.  They must have

21     been inspectors or I don't know what.  They also interrogated us.

22        Q.   And how far were those offices where the interrogations were done

23     from where you were detained?  Were those offices on the same grounds or

24     premises as the big building we saw in the picture?

25        A.   The small building was some 10 to 15 metres away from the hall,

Page 15694

 1     but it was part of the overall facility of the whole compound.  There

 2     were offices in there, so I suppose it was used for the administration,

 3     but it was only some 10 to 15 metres away, as I said.

 4        Q.   And lastly, the man who was beaten and thrown in and then dead

 5     the next morning, did anyone ask for medical treatment for him during the

 6     night, do you know?

 7        A.   No one of us did because we didn't dare.

 8        Q.   Why not?

 9        A.   Because everybody was afraid for themselves.  Nobody expected him

10     to die.  We thought that he would recover.

11        Q.   I have no more questions for you.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Well, Mr. Witness, this is the end of your

13     testimony.  You're now released.  We wish you a safe journey home, and

14     the Chamber records its appreciation for your coming to give evidence and

15     notes the suffering that -- that you experienced at the time, and we

16     empathise with you.  Thank you, sir.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I would like to thank everybody.

18             JUDGE HALL:  So, Mr. Hannis, that is it for today?

19             MR. HANNIS:  It is, Your Honour.  I think we have another

20     witness, but I don't know that it makes sense to try and start him and do

21     20 minutes.  I think it would be better just to start first thing Monday

22     morning.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Okay.  So we'll -- the witness may be escorted

24     from the room, and then we'll properly take the adjournment in open

25     court.

Page 15695

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.  If you could assist in raising the

 3     shutters.  Thank you.

 4             So we take the adjournment and resume at 9.00 on Monday morning.

 5     I trust everyone has a safe weekend.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.09 p.m.

 7                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day

 8                           of October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.