101011ED

Page 15696

1 Monday, 11 October 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The Accused Zupljanin not present]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,

6 everybody in and around the courtroom.

7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

8 Stojan Zupljanin.

9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Good morning to everyone.

11 May we have the appearances today, please.

12 MR. OLMSTED: Good morning, Your Honours. Matthew Olmsted,

13 Joanna Korner, and Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,

15 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence

16 this morning. Thank you.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,

18 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19 Our client is not present. He will come after the first session.

20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

21 Yes, Ms. Korner.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, we do have a matter to raise before

23 the first witness today is called.

24 Although Mr. Olmsted is -- is going to be calling the witness,

25 Your Honours, it really raises a matter of principle, which is why I'm

Page 15697

1 here dealing with.

2 Your Honours will have seen that the next witness was in the

3 motion called to deal with some two adjudicated facts that were denied

4 or -- or in some way altered. I hope Your Honours had a chance to look

5 at the proofing note that was sent round last week, because Your Honours

6 will see that it is proposed that he give evidence on, in fact, a total

7 of seven adjudicated facts.

8 Your Honours, the fact is that's the evidence he can give. And

9 it's our submission that although originally we put him down only for the

10 three, he should be allowed to give evidence about all of them, for this

11 reason: Your Honours, effectively, if we call witnesses who can speak to

12 other adjudicated facts which were the subject of, as I say, either

13 rejection or alteration by the Trial Chamber, then they should be allowed

14 to do so.

15 Clearly it's in Your Honours' interest to have the best evidence

16 available when you come to render your decision in this case. And, of

17 course, the adjudicated facts which come from the trial or appeal

18 judgements are a distillation, quite often, of large numbers of witnesses

19 having given that evidence and/or documents.

20 In addition, Your Honour, the adjudicated facts, until a slight

21 change in the Defence position, which has been coming about very

22 recently, have not been agreed. In other words, they're the subject of

23 either putting the Prosecution to strict proof or direct challenge that

24 the events contained in the adjudicated facts ever happened. And so,

25 therefore, it's important that the Prosecution is able to prove those

Page 15698

1 matters to the best of its ability.

2 Your Honour, we submit the only, as it were, flaw would be the

3 question of notice, and we say it's not a flaw because we have given

4 65 ter summaries for each of these witnesses which show the matters that

5 they can speak about. And, in addition, they'll be shown in the proofing

6 note, which in this case I believe was delivered Thursday -- yes,

7 Thursday of last week.

8 So, Your Honours, in all the circumstances, we say that the

9 witness, particularly this witness -- because some of the adjudicated

10 facts relate to the context of how he comes to deal with the actual facts

11 for which he was originally notified, and Your Honours have said we can

12 lead evidence as to context.

13 So in all circumstances, Your Honour, we say, and we're raising

14 it now because it's going to happen with some other witnesses as well, so

15 that we can have a ruling from Your Honours whether we may be allowed to

16 do this.

17 So, Your Honour, that's the submission we make.

18 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

19 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, we do object to this, and I will give

20 our reasons right now.

21 The 16th of June motion -- the Prosecutor's motion says,

22 paragraph 4:

23 "The denied adjudicated fact in essence provides the summaries of

24 the facts on which the proposed witness will provide evidence."

25 So if that is a position -- that was the position of the

Page 15699

1 Office of the Prosecutor, at that point they should have stated all the

2 adjudicated facts that they intend to prove through that witness.

3 So if they failed to do that, there is really nothing we can do

4 about it. They are supposed to know their case, and they are supposed to

5 know what their witnesses are going to testify -- or are able to give

6 evidence about.

7 The Trial Chamber decision of 14th July says, paragraph 20:

8 "The Trial Chamber reiterates that the testimony of each selected

9 proposed witness will be admissible solely for the limited purpose of

10 seeking to establish the substance of the specified denied adjudicated

11 fact."

12 Your Honours, if what Ms. Korner just said, it's important that

13 the Prosecution is able to prove those matters to the best of its

14 ability - it's page 2; 24, 25, lines. Now, as I said, if this is

15 important for the Office of the Prosecutor, they should have, at the

16 point on the 16th of June, they should have proposed all these witnesses

17 and specified the exact adjudicated facts that they -- these witnesses

18 are going to give the evidence about.

19 In this -- doing it at this point is highly prejudicial for the

20 Defence, and the Defence had no notice about it, whether the -- if

21 the Office of the Prosecutor is going to raise additional adjudicated

22 facts with -- with these witnesses. This creates a problem for us, you

23 see, Your Honours, because some of the witnesses which came earlier we

24 could have challenged the adjudicated facts, have we been on notice that

25 the -- that the -- that the Office of the Prosecutor is willing to bring

Page 15700

1 the -- the evidence to that effect.

2 Therefore -- therefore, we take the -- the objection very

3 seriously, and we -- and we very serious object to this line of -- of

4 conducting the case by the Office of the Prosecutor.

5 Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

7 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, if I may, very shortly, adopting the position

9 of Stanisic Defence, I would like to outline the practice imposed by the

10 OTP in this case with amendments of 65 ter list, amendments of the -- in

11 terms of evidence, in terms of documents, in terms of witnesses, and now

12 we have another attempt to sort of say on the backdoor introduce certain

13 elements of the theory of their case.

14 Obviously so big confusion in presenting of OTP case is actually

15 on place, and the mere fact that they filed more than 50 motions in terms

16 of the amendment of the initial 65 ter list practical every -- every

17 week, the average is number -- every week, one motion, plus this approach

18 with adjudicated facts issue which is absolutely in contravention of the

19 rulings and the orders of this Trial Chamber.

20 Shortly, if this kind of request will be granted, that would be a

21 serious violation of the -- of the principles of the fairness of the

22 trial and the interests of the accused. That's the point. We have to --

23 to know, and we're asking -- kindly ask from this Trial Chamber to -- to

24 tell the OTP to stop. We have to know where is the line, where is the

25 moment to stop in this kind of practice.

Page 15701

1 Thank you.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. PANTELIC: And, for the record, this witness was called only

4 for -- for a -- one adjudicated fact, which is 470. And I don't see

5 really to -- the reason for expansion in terms of the -- the issue of --

6 of judicial economy, in terms of issue of the trial expedition in terms

7 of costs, in terms of the issue of repetitiveness, because we -- we see

8 that many of these witnesses will -- will tell the same story, so I think

9 all these facts should be -- should be -- have in mind before reaching

10 the decision.

11 Thank you so much for your attention, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: Could you indicate the seven new facts that you

15 are raising.

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours haven't got the proofing not with you?

17 Your Honour, the facts that this witness will be called for are 263, 470,

18 471, 860, 861, 875, 1082.

19 As I say, part of it is the -- is the actual context as well of

20 how this witness -- would Your Honours give me a moment.

21 [Prosecution counsel confer]

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this -- this witness is going to deal

23 with the killings outside of Manjaca, but he comes from Omarska. And

24 these -- some of these adjudicated facts deal with Omarska.

25 Now, Your Honours, can I just answer two matters raised by

Page 15702

1 Mr. Zecevic, which is this: First of all, notice. As I say, we argue

2 there is notice, originally in the 65 ter but in the proofing note which

3 was handed out on Thursday. And, Your Honour, these are

4 crime-based witnesses, all of them, and we would submit that that's --

5 you know, 48 -- sorry, 48 -- 72 hours' worth is sufficient notice.

6 Second matter, I don't quite understand what Mr. Zecevic means by

7 "some of the witnesses which came earlier we could have challenged the

8 adjudicated facts, have we been on notice that the Office of the

9 Prosecutor is willing to bring evidence" about them. Well, Your Honours

10 they have -- those adjudicated facts that they have taken issue with,

11 they have been challenging. And we've always made it clear that where an

12 adjudicated fact was challenged we would be calling the evidence which

13 related to that adjudicated fact. So I don't quite follow what

14 Mr. Zecevic means by that.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Would you like me to explain, Your Honours?

16 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please.

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, the Office of the Prosecutor

18 proposed some adjudicated facts. The Trial Chamber decided on the

19 adjudicated facts. After the decision on adjudicated facts, the

20 witness -- the Office of the Prosecutor asked by their motion to add

21 additional witnesses to deal with some of the adjudicated facts that have

22 been -- that have not been accepted by the Trial Chamber or accepted in

23 full.

24 Now, out of, let's say, hundred of the adjudicated facts which

25 originally were proposed, the Office of the Prosecutor calls witnesses

Page 15709

1 Sorry, Mr. Witness, I had interrupted the preliminary questions

2 that the Bench puts to you to get an estimate of the time that it

3 would -- is expected your testimony would take. And you would have heard

4 what has passed between the Bench and counsel and therefore I needn't

5 repeat it.

6 The only thing that I would add is that the sitting times of the

7 Court are from when we have a morning session we rise for the day at 1.45

8 but the -- each session is of no more than 90 minutes because the tapes

9 have to be changed in order to -- for the record-keeping of the Tribunal.

10 And the advantage of such breaks is that allows for the convenience of

11 the Bench, counsel, witnesses, and everyone else. But notwithstanding

12 those fixed periods when we would break in which the day's sitting is

13 divided, if for any time you feel discomfort and need to take a break,

14 you alert us and we will, of course, accommodate you.

15 And, Mr. Olmsted, you may begin your examination-in-chief.

16 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examination by Mr. Olmsted:

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Murselovic.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. Let me first start by apologising for holding you here over the

21 weekend. We know that you have a number of important matters to attend

22 to back at home, so we're going to try to get you on a plane as soon as

23 possible.

24 Can you tell us, where did you reside before the conflict in

25 1992?

Page 15710

1 A. Until the war, I lived in Prijedor. I lived in the town. And

2 the last address where I resided at was the main street of Prijedor,

3 before it was called Marshal Tito Street, number 43, after the war. And

4 when I came back in 1998, the name of the street is the King Peter I -

5 the liberator - Street, number 43.

6 Q. Prior to the conflict, did you own any businesses in Prijedor?

7 A. Yes. Until 1992. Actually, to be more precise, from 1978 until

8 1992 I was in private business. I had a restaurant which was called

9 Mursel. I also had a snack bar. And in those conditions, it was quite a

10 good business because this was still in time of socialism. One of the

11 restaurants was in my name, the other one was in my wife's name. Later I

12 formed a company, and this company employed up to 15 employees.

13 I was fairly successful in this kind of work, if I may say so.

14 Q. You mentioned a little bit while ago that you are currently

15 involved in politics. Were you also involved in politics prior to the

16 conflict?

17 A. At first multi-party elections in 1990, I was elected to the

18 local parliament. I was elected a deputy, representing a party, which we

19 called the Party of Private Initiative, which gathered private business

20 owners, businessmen, and then as -- from 1990 to 1992, until the

21 beginning of the conflict, I was a representative in the municipal body.

22 Let me just mention, this is from the multi-party elections in

23 1990. Before 1990, I was never involved in politics. I was not a member

24 of the League of Communists. So only after 1990 did I actively start

25 taking part in politics.

Page 15711

1 Q. And just to clarify a couple of matters, you mentioned you were a

2 representative in the municipality body. Would that be the

3 Prijedor Municipal Assembly?

4 A. Yes, yes. Prijedor Municipal Assembly, the local body of the

5 municipality of Prijedor, yes.

6 Q. And could tell us what ethnicities were represented by the party

7 you belonged to, this Party of Private Initiative?

8 A. All the businessmen were there in our party more or less. There

9 were people of different ethnic groups in the party. I was a Muslim. Of

10 course, there were other ethnic groups as members. The president of the

11 party -- I don't really remember exactly who it was, but I think it was a

12 man from Doboj. He was a Croat.

13 It was a small party which brought together private artisans,

14 businessmen, tradesmen, and it was of multi-ethnic composition.

15 Q. Were you arrested on 30 May 1992?

16 A. I was arrested on the 23rd of May for the first time. The

17 23rd of May, 1992. I spent the night in prison, in the

18 Prijedor Police Station, actually. There were six or seven other people

19 there with me. I was arrested a week later for the second time. This

20 was on the 30th of May, after which I was taken to the Omarska camp.

21 Q. And who arrested you on the 30th of May?

22 A. I was arrested on the 30th of May around maybe 1.00, something

23 like that. A neighbour knocked. His name was Ranko Vujasinovic. He was

24 a young man of maybe 25 at the time. I don't think he was 30 years old

25 yet. I knew his parents because his grandfather had the same name

Page 15712

1 Rajko [as interpreted] Vujasinovic. I know that well. He knocked on the

2 door, on the ground floor door. He asked me to come outside. I came

3 out. I was alone in the apartment, in the house. And he asked me to

4 bring weapons with me if I had any. I had a legal revolver with a

5 licence. I handed that to him, and then he asked me -- it was actually

6 quite insolent and arrogant. He was taking all the neighbours from the

7 neighbouring houses to a hotel across the street. It was called Hotel

8 Balkan. There were about 2- or 300 people there, men, women, children.

9 All of these people were there, and we spent two or three hours in that

10 hotel that afternoon. This is right across the street from my house on

11 the square in Prijedor, in the very centre of town. It's an old hotel, a

12 relatively old hotel, called Hotel Balkan. It was opened in 1961.

13 Q. You mentioned Ranko Vujasinovic. Do you know what organ he

14 worked for?

15 A. He was a reserve police officer, and he was wearing a police

16 uniform, as a reserve policeman. He wasn't an active policeman; I knew

17 that. His house is some 100 to 120 metres away from mine. So he was a

18 reserve policeman; I know that for sure. There was another reserve

19 police officer there, but I remember this one because he was my

20 neighbour.

21 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were taken to Omarska camp that day.

22 Can you tell us who actually transported you to Omarska? Who was in

23 charge of that transportation?

24 A. I must say that we were in quite an uncomfortable position in

25 this hotel. We didn't know where we were there, what we were doing

Page 15713

1 there, what reason. There were elderly women there, children also. At

2 one point, the policemen checked our IDs, but we all knew each other more

3 or less. But they said that Muslims should be separated and go to one

4 side, and the Croats and the Serbs should go to the other side. Of

5 course, I went and stood on the side where the Muslims were standing, and

6 the Croats. And then from our group, they separated people who looked

7 older. They were perhaps in their 70s or something like that. They told

8 us that we should go outside.

9 We went out in front of the hotel. There were buses there. I

10 could see three or four buses. We boarded the buses. The bus that I

11 boarded, there were quite a few people that I knew there. There was an

12 Asif Kapetanovic there, Sefik Terzic; these were all people from the

13 town, my neighbours practically. At the front entrance, there was a

14 policeman who was standing there. He was already retired. I didn't know

15 at the time whether he was retired already or not. He is a year or so

16 younger than me, or perhaps the same age as me. I know that his name is

17 Grahovac. I knew it then. Stevo Grahovac; I think that was his name.

18 He was standing at the front door. He had a machine-gun, a weapon, in

19 his hands.

20 We entered the bus -- I entered the buses. And then three or

21 four buses were filled, and then we set off from in front of the

22 Hotel Balkan, and we went to the right, along the Mose Pijade Street.

23 That's what it was called at the time. Now the name is

24 Akademika Raskovica, Academician Raskovic Street. We went -- we passed

25 the court-house, and then we stopped in front of the police station. The

Page 15714

1 bus stopped in front of the police station. This was our Prijedor police

2 station. It also stopped in front of the municipal building. We waited

3 for a bit there. And an unpleasant incident, as far as I was concerned,

4 occurred there.

5 I asked this policeman, I asked him, Where are we being taken?

6 Where are we going? Why are we being taken away? It was not clear to

7 us, first of all, why we were taken from our homes; and then, secondly

8 where they were being taken in these buses. I could see the people were

9 surprised, they were upset. This Grahovac just was shrugging his

10 shoulders as if he didn't know where we were going. Like that.

11 Q. Let me ask you some questions with regard to this so we can get

12 through this a little quicker.

13 I just want to go back. You said that you were at the hotel and

14 they separated people into two groups. And I want to clarify, for the

15 record, was one group to consist of the Muslims and Croats, while the

16 other group consisted of Serbs; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes, correct.

18 Q. And after -- you mentioned that you asked the police where they

19 were taking you. Did the police ever tell you where they were taking you

20 that day?

21 A. No. They were just shrugging their shoulders. They said they

22 didn't know where they were taking us. They were very insolent. This

23 Vujasinovic was quite insolent, and he said something that was not nice

24 to one of the neighbours and I think he kicked him. The situation was

25 quite unpleasant. I mean, this person could have been his grandfather,

Page 15715

1 not even his father.

2 Q. And, eventually, these buses that were on, they arrived at

3 Omarska camp; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And how long were you detained --

6 A. Excuse me. We didn't know where we were going. I had never been

7 to this Omarska camp before. We were not even taking the

8 Banja Luka-Prijedor road where you would usually go. We went by a

9 different route through some neighbourhood. At one point while we were

10 passing through town we were lying on the floor. We saw a few houses

11 that were set on fire. But, basically, we got to this camp. We didn't

12 know it was a camp. We came to this mine. There were some business or

13 administration buildings around, some work-shops. We didn't know where

14 we were, why we were there. But, in any case, this is where we arrived.

15 Later we found out that this was Omarska, the Omarska mine. I didn't

16 have the opportunity to see it before.

17 Q. And can you tell us how long you were at Omarska camp?

18 A. I was in the Omarska camp until August 6th, when we were -- our

19 names were called out again. There was a check. And then on the

20 6th of August, again we boarded some buses, and now we were in a more

21 difficult situation because we all had dysentery. We were all in a

22 terrible, exhausted state. We had all lost at least 25 to 30 kilos. And

23 then on the 6th of August - I think that was one of the most difficult

24 days of my life - we didn't know we were going. We were boarded on the

25 buses at 10.00 in the morning, and we were travelling by placing our head

Page 15716

1 forward. We were lying on the floor. And it was unbearably hot and the

2 heat was turned on.

3 Q. Sorry for interrupting you. We are going to get to that incident

4 in a little bit. I just want to lay a little more context so we

5 understand that event clearly.

6 During your time at Omarska, were you able to determine who was

7 the commander at the camp?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, point number one: We have this

9 adjudicated facts related to this question. I -- it slipped to my -- but

10 it's not in dispute. We have it. You already ruled that it's

11 adjudicated facts.

12 Point number 2: If my learned friend Mr. Olmsted will go with

13 these kinds of questioning relating to context, he will cover practically

14 all facts which was previously denied and limited not to do that.

15 What we have here, we have Mr. Murselovic, he was a victim, he

16 suffered a lot, he has his story to tell, but specifically related to the

17 incident out - I will not mention the name, the place - out of

18 Omarska camp.

19 So I think -- I didn't react before, but all these questions and

20 answers are really -- are going nowhere in terms of the judicial economy

21 and the efficiency of the trial. Thank you.

22 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I'm trying to lay some foundation.

23 Obviously the incident which occurred on the 6th of August, 1992, the

24 6th and 7th of August, 1992, we have to lay the foundation that he knew

25 who were -- was involved in it, who was there that morning, who from the

Page 15717

1 leadership at the camp was there. So I'm just laying foundation as to

2 whether he knows who was at the camp, who was in charge, and what was

3 happening that morning. And, of course, his time, for over two and a

4 half months, would give him some insight as to who these particular

5 individuals are. I'm not trying to expand into other adjudicated facts;

6 I'm really just laying the context so we can understand his evidence with

7 regard to the particular incident.

8 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Olmsted, we trust that we aren't going to have

9 to laboriously go through this each time one of the witnesses to testify

10 to adjudicated facts is called. To repeat what we have said on more

11 occasions than I would try to count, obviously some context is necessary

12 to make sense of the -- of what the witness is about to say. But only to

13 make sense of what the witness is about to say. And here the identified

14 adjudicated fact is one where the line of questions, we agree,

15 Mr. Pantelic, is totally unnecessary.

16 MR. OLMSTED: Very well.

17 Q. I want to turn to events on the 6th of August, 1992.

18 Do you recall where you were being detained at Omarska on the

19 6th of August, 1992?

20 A. Well, I was detained at different places. For a while I was in

21 the so-called Mujo's Room, that was a room behind the cafeteria. And

22 then for five or six days I was in garage which was next to that room.

23 And on 6 August -- well, actually, I believe the previous night I

24 slept -- or, rather, I didn't really sleep because in that garage the

25 width was about 22, 23, square metres large and there were about 150 and

Page 15718

1 170 of us, so we were all standing like sardines. Then there was a

2 roll-call. We were among the first, and we boarded the first two or

3 three buses, and we didn't know where we were going.

4 Q. You mentioned there was a roll-call. Who gave the roll-call?

5 A. The police officers who were taking us away. I'm not sure if it

6 was Meakic or one of the guards. There was one who we called Brki. They

7 made roll-calls the previous days. And on that morning, they called the

8 first group. That's what they called us. I don't know "the first

9 group." The first group of what? And then we boarded the first buses

10 that were lined up in the camp.

11 Q. When they were doing this roll-call, did they have lists with

12 them?

13 A. Yes, they did. They couldn't have called us without them. So

14 they had lists, and they told us that we were the first group. Again, I

15 don't know on which criteria they decided that they were the first group.

16 And there were rumours that we would be exchanged, and all sorts of

17 rumours. But it was clear that we would be taken somewhere but we had no

18 idea where.

19 So we were called as the first group, we boarded the buses. And

20 as far as I could tell, there was a number of buses, ten or 15. The

21 first three or four, maybe five, buses carried the first group. But

22 nobody had told us where we were going nor why. Actually, we were only

23 too glad and could hardly wait to leave that hell.

24 Q. I want to talk a little bit more about these lists.

25 Were you aware that the police at Omarska were placing people

Page 15719

1 into -- or detainees into categories?

2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, are we still in the context of

3 Manjaca camp?

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I really do object to

5 this -- that.

6 MR. OLMSTED: We are on the day that they're being taken to

7 Manjaca camp. And the witness has talked about there was a roll-call and

8 there were some lists, and I'm trying to clarify what information those

9 lists contained.

10 JUDGE DELVOIE: No, Mr. Olmsted. You're trying to determine

11 circumstances in Omarska.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, first of all, the witness said,

13 himself, he doesn't know about the lists at all. He said I assume they

14 had a list because they wouldn't know on -- by their memory of our names;

15 so therefore I don't see the basis for even asking this question, let

16 alone that it doesn't concern anything about the adjudicated fact this

17 witness is -- has come to give evidence about.

18 Thank you.

19 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise. I really think it's time for all

20 of us to travel to Manjaca. I mean, let's go to that -- let's go to this

21 particular event. Otherwise, we shall object on numerous bases here

22 because this particular fact you're not allowed. It's 861. And then

23 you're, through the backdoor, trying to get these answers. It's not

24 fair.

25 MR. OLMSTED: Well, I'm moving on, Your Honours, any way. But,

Page 15720

1 again, I think it's important to know who was there on the morning of the

2 6th August, 1992, and what was going on before they entered onto the

3 buses to go to Manjaca. And that's what I -- all I'm trying to do at

4 this stage. But I'll move on to another issue.

5 Q. You mentioned that you were -- you boarded buses. Were you

6 ordered to board those buses, and, if so, by whom?

7 A. Certainly. It was the guards who called us, who ordered us to do

8 so. And there were several guards and police officers.

9 Q. These guards that ordered you to enter the bus, what uniforms

10 were they wearing?

11 A. Police uniforms.

12 Q. Now, you mentioned that there were, I believe -- well, I'll ask

13 you again because I don't see it right here in front of me.

14 How many buses were at Omarska camp that morning?

15 A. My estimate would be about 15. Or more, maybe. 15-ish. Or,

16 rather, let me say, 15 at least. From 15 to 20. I didn't count them at

17 the time.

18 Q. And how many detainees do you estimate were on these

19 approximately 15 buses?

20 A. When we came to Manjaca, we learned that there were

21 1300 detainees. That was a known fact, that there were about 1300 of us

22 who were taken to Manjaca.

23 Q. Now, either that morning or afterwards, did the police guards

24 from the camp tell you where you were going that day?

25 A. No.

Page 15721

1 Q. And can you tell us how many detainees were on your particular

2 bus that morning?

3 A. Well, on that bus where I was, there were at least 80 or 90 of

4 us. That was a public transportation bus. It wasn't a long-distance bus

5 but one of those commuting buses. And we didn't sit there or stand. We

6 lay on the floor. One on the other, and that is on -- in two layers, as

7 it were.

8 Q. And why were you laying on the floor?

9 A. We were ordered to. They ordered us to lie down on the floor,

10 one over the others, as -- because we were supposed to pass through the

11 city of Banja Luka, and they wanted the bus to appear empty. We -- we

12 knew the route from Prijedor, and we concluded that we were moving toward

13 Banja Luka. And to anybody who would look -- who would see the buses,

14 the buses would seem empty.

15 Before that, we had all eaten something rotten. It may have been

16 beans or something. So but -- everybody had dysentery and we all stank

17 like animals. And the ones were lying on the others and the police

18 officers would step on our backs to go from -- from the front to the

19 rear, and commenting, Now these Balja guys really stink like hell. And

20 it was very hot. And our filth was usually running down our legs.

21 Q. You mentioned police officers on the buses. Can you tell us how

22 many police officers were on each bus or if -- to the extent you know, on

23 your bus?

24 A. On our bus, I think there was only one who was sitting in front.

25 So he was some two metres away from us, and we were all crammed in the

Page 15722

1 rear. And it really stank very badly. I suppose they may not have

2 smelled it. But we were able to make out that there was some sort of

3 escort, but we couldn't see much. Occasionally when one would raise his

4 head to cast a glance outside, then we would see something, but we

5 couldn't determine where we were going. And there was some escort. We

6 saw police vehicles, blue vehicles with police or milicija on them. They

7 seemed like armoured vehicles. But there were also regular cars that

8 escorted us. And it was a rather long drive.

9 Q. Other than the police escorts that escorted these 15 buses that

10 day, did you see any other organs escorting the buses that day?

11 A. No, I didn't see any other escort. I told you that there was a

12 police escort. It seemed like a police armoured vehicle. We saw it when

13 we arrived at Manjaca.

14 There was also some sort of escort, but we couldn't see much of

15 it. There was some regular passenger cars. But I told you, we lay on

16 the floors, underneath the seats, so we were not allowed to raise our

17 heads, and so we didn't really do that. And we were lying on the floor,

18 the ones on the others, like sardines.

19 Q. You mentioned it was hot inside the bus. Can you explain why it

20 was hot inside the bus?

21 A. Well, first of all, 6 August 1992 was a very hot day. And,

22 secondly, all the windows were closed. They didn't allow us to open them

23 even a little. And the heating was also turned on. So there must have

24 been at least 50 degrees inside. It was an inferno. We were all melting

25 away in that heat and in that stench.

Page 15723

1 Q. Sir, do you personally have any medical conditions that made it

2 particularly bad for you, this bus ride?

3 A. Yes. Even then, just like today, I'm a diabetic. They didn't

4 give us any water, and I got very thirsty. So it was very hard on me.

5 There wasn't any water. It was unbearably hot. My only desire was to

6 approach the window-panes and lick them because there was condensed water

7 on the window-panes. There was -- the steam condensed upon the

8 window-panes, and it was my wish to get to the window and lick it because

9 there was this small quantity of water there, and that may actually have

10 saved me. Although, then, my sugar level probably dropped considerably,

11 I had lost 30 kilograms, I was starved, and that also may have saved me.

12 And I licked that glass pane on which there was some condensed water, and

13 that's how I was able to ingest some fluid.

14 Q. Where did the buses end up that day?

15 A. During the ride, the buses stopped several times, but we didn't

16 go out. We were lying on the floor. They would open the doors, and they

17 stopped at roadside inns that we noticed as much. We didn't get up. But

18 the locals threw stones at us through the open doors and cursed us. And

19 around 8.00 or 9.00 in the evening it had already -- it was already dark.

20 We arrived at place, we didn't know where we were, but that was in front

21 of the Manjaca camp. And the buses parked there. The drivers had gotten

22 out. And the escort that was on the buses also went out. They again

23 checked whether everything was well closed and the heating was left on,

24 and that's how they left us on those buses.

25 Q. I don't think I see this question initially as to when the buses

Page 15724

1 took off, but can you -- from Omarska camp, but perhaps you could tell

2 us, how long did the trip take from Omarska until your arrival at

3 Manjaca? If could you give us an estimate.

4 A. The trip started at 10.00 a.m. until 8.00 or 9.00 p.m., so it was

5 about 11 hours. We didn't know what time it was though. We didn't know

6 where we were. We were only in that unbearable inferno on those buses.

7 This -- there was immense heat.

8 Q. And you mentioned that they left you on the buses that -- which

9 were sealed and had the heat on. And how long were you made to stay on

10 the buses that night?

11 A. All night. We stayed there all night, until about 6.00 a.m.,

12 when it started dawning. Then they opened the doors and ordered us to

13 get out. It was a rather cold at that hour. And from that terrible

14 heat, we suddenly were thrown into this cold morning air.

15 Q. I want to talk about events during that night of

16 6 August to 7 August 1992.

17 During that night, what were the police escorts doing?

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry. I have to object.

19 The witness just testified that the drivers of the buses -- the

20 drivers of the buses and the escorts left. I don't -- I don't see where

21 does Mr. Olmsted founds the foundation for posing this question. Not to

22 mention that everything we heard so far has nothing do with the

23 adjudicated facts which are about to hear, I guess.

24 MR. OLMSTED: This is exactly to deal with the denied adjudicated

25 facts. I'll clarify that matter. I appreciate the intervention from my

Page 15725

1 learned friend.

2 Q. Can you clarify for us. You mentioned that the police escorts

3 and drivers left, exited the buses that night. Did they leave the

4 vicinity or did they stay around the buses?

5 A. They stayed near the buses. We could hear voices, we could hear

6 sounds. Although the engines were running and we were sealed inside

7 those buses, but we could tell that there were others present outside the

8 buses. We didn't know where they were exactly, but we heard that they

9 were around. And they started calling the names of some people on my

10 bus. They started looking for people.

11 Q. And when you say "they were calling people from your bus," do you

12 know, were those the escorts, or were they someone else?

13 A. Yes, those were the people who escorted us. From my bus, they

14 took out an elderly man. He was called Dedo Crnalic. And they said,

15 Dedo Crnalic, come out. We heard them opening the door and calling Dedo

16 Crnalic. And they said, We'll make "cevapcici" of him.

17 At that moment he even grabbed my jacket because when we were

18 going to the guards, we were want to put our jackets on because it's less

19 painful when they beat you if you wear a jacket. And then they started

20 beating him immediately. We could hear him groan. And he groaned and

21 whined. And then the sounds died down. And then they threw him back in

22 the bus, and they asked two others to come out. And Dedo Crnalic died

23 there, lying with us in that bus. But we didn't know that until the

24 following morning.

25 Q. When he came back into the bus or he was brought back into the

Page 15726

1 bus, did you have a chance to observe what kind of condition he was in?

2 A. He was -- well, I saw him lying there in the front part of the

3 bus, but I didn't approach him. But I heard him making some sounds, so

4 he must still have been alive. But he -- I didn't pay much attention to

5 him anymore. I was licking the window-panes to -- and I was focussed on

6 my own survival. But he was lying in the front part of the bus. But

7 nobody could leave their place, you know. No one could go to him to see

8 whether he was all right.

9 In the morning, I told some younger guys, Take Dedo out. And

10 they replied, He's dead; he isn't showing any signs of life. And

11 eventually he was taken out, and we saw some other dead bodies lying

12 there.

13 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I'm going to move on to other victim

14 of this incident, so perhaps this is a good time for us to break.

15 JUDGE HALL: Yes. We return in 20 minutes.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.50 a.m.

19 [The witness takes the stand]

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. OLMSTED:

22 Q. Mr. Murselovic, do you recall any other detainees who were taken

23 off of the bus that night?

24 A. Yes, there were many of us, and all of these were people that

25 were familiar. I can't say -- I don't quite understand your question.

Page 15727

1 There were many of us. There were 1.300 detainees there.

2 Q. Yes, let me rephrase my question.

3 You already told us about what happened to Mr. Crnalic. And my

4 question to you is: Are you aware of any other detainees who were on the

5 bus that night, the night of 6 August 1992, who were taken off by police

6 guards?

7 A. The following morning, we saw some dead bodies, and we got

8 information that Nezir Krak, whom I also knew, and then a neighbour of

9 mine, Sead Babic, called Djuzin, and some other people from other bus

10 were killed. From my bus, Dedo Crnalic was the only one who was killed.

11 But we could see them taking out these other dead bodies from the buses.

12 Q. You mentioned Nezir Krak. During the night, did you hear him

13 being taken out of the buses?

14 A. Yes, he was taken out, and then we could see dead bodies there.

15 He never entered Manjaca with us, and we found out that he had been

16 killed. We saw the dead bodies. I didn't get close but there were some

17 seven or eight bodies that were lying there next to the buses, and it was

18 known. We heard when the commander of the camp said, I don't want the

19 dead; I am accepting only the live ones. Because the guards wanted to

20 leave the dead bodies there, and this man Bozidar Popovic said, We are

21 not interested in that. I'm not interested in the dead people; I'm only

22 admitting those who are alive.

23 And so we saw those seven or eight dead bodies. I didn't know

24 all of them. I knew some of them. I knew Nezir Krak well. He was a car

25 mechanic by profession. I would see him often. I would say hello, greet

Page 15728

1 him. We were not friends particularly, but we were not on bad terms

2 either. And I heard and I saw him as being among the dead there.

3 Q. Yes, and let me rephrase my question one more time, as I'm trying

4 to get to a particular issue. While you were on the buses on the night

5 of 6/7 August 1992, did you hear the police guards calling out Mr. Krak

6 to come off the bus?

7 A. We were not able to hear much because the buses were well-closed.

8 They took Dedo Crnalic off our bus. And I must say, truthfully, I didn't

9 hear. I mean, there was some people being called out, some people were

10 looking for some people. We heard that. But it's been 15 years or more

11 since then, so I really cannot say. They were calling out some people.

12 We heard scuffling and sound of voices. But we couldn't hear anything

13 distinctly.

14 But it's a fact that they were taking some people off the buses,

15 looking for some people. The buses were well-closed and we were lying on

16 the floor, so we really couldn't know who was actually being called out.

17 But we heard and then saw the next day some seven or eight dead bodies,

18 and we were told Nezir is there and this Sead Babic and some others that

19 I cannot recall right now were among them.

20 But many of them, seven or eight, were taken off the buses that

21 night and killed, just like Dedo Crnalic.

22 Q. You mentioned that saw the bodies, the corpses, when you got off

23 the bus. Who put the corpses -- who had taken the corpses off the buses?

24 A. The prisoners, the young men among us. They took the dead bodies

25 from the buses.

Page 15729

1 Q. Do you know, were they ordered to do that; and if so, by whom?

2 A. Yes. The guards, the policeman, ordered that they be taken out.

3 And that is why Bozidar Popovic reacted, the one who was admitting us to

4 the camp. I said, I don't need dead ones, take that away.

5 Q. That morning, the morning of the 7th of August, when you exited

6 the bus, did you recognise any of the police guards or escorts from the

7 day before?

8 A. I recognised some policemen. I noticed Bosko Grabez. He was an

9 older reserve policeman, retired. I knew a few others. One of them even

10 spoke to me and he asked me, Mursel is that you? I said, yes, it is, and

11 so on. And then I left quickly.

12 So I don't know if this was wise or not. I didn't really look at

13 the policemen that much. I knew they were policemen. Some of them

14 I [Realtime transcript read in error "you"] knew, some of them I didn't

15 know. The best thing was not to look at them, cross your -- meet their

16 gaze. The biggest problem was that I knew quite a few of those people.

17 Q. You mentioned, I believe, someone by the name of Sead --

18 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. Just for the accuracy of the

19 transcript, 33:6, I believe the witness said I -- I -- people knew me

20 much -- much more people knew me than I knew them. So ...

21 If can you clarify that with the witness.

22 MR. OLMSTED: Well, that's a fairly minor point.

23 Q. But can you confirm that's what you told us just a moment ago?

24 A. Yes. I said that these were people, policemen, in police

25 uniforms. I knew some of them. I didn't know all of them. Some were

Page 15730

1 from the surrounding villages. They were not from town itself. Prijedor

2 is a big town, a big municipality, that had 112.407 citizens before the

3 war, so it's logical I didn't know all of them, I didn't all of the

4 policemen. But I knew many of them, and many of them knew me.

5 I was a deputy, I was born in town, I was a well-known caterer,

6 and before that I worked in the school as a teacher, professor. So I

7 assume that many more people knew me. There was some of the pupils there

8 as well. So many more people knew me than I knew them. Some of them you

9 lose sight of. I knew some policemen. I knew that some of them were

10 policemen. I didn't know the names of some of those policemen, but did I

11 know that they were policemen.

12 Q. You mentioned a police officer by the name Bosko Grabez,

13 G-r-a-b-e-z. Can you tell us, what did you see him doing that morning of

14 the 7th of August?

15 A. I noticed about him -- I saw him. I did see him. I knew him

16 well. I knew where he lived. I knew -- he was a policeman, a traffic

17 policeman, even, when he was working as an active policeman. He was

18 older. When I say older, I mean that he was at least ten years older

19 than me. And allegedly he -- this Sead Babic got off the bus, called

20 Djuzin - that was his nickname - with whom this Grabez alledgedly --

21 well, this Sead would often make jokes at the expense of Bosko. And then

22 that morning there was this incident when this Grabez told some younger

23 policemen, indicating Sead Babic, he pointed him out to these younger

24 policemen, and they took him somewhere, and they killed him.

25 Q. Did you see Grabez interacting with these two police officers and

Page 15731

1 gesturing towards Mr. Babic?

2 A. Yes, I saw him talking and indicating that they should separate

3 him. There were many of us there. You know, it was difficult to follow.

4 But I noticed that he pointed with his finger at Babic and he asked this

5 younger policeman to take him a little bit further away. And he never

6 entered -- I didn't see Babic dead, even though he was my very close

7 neighbour, close to my house. But he never entered the Manjaca camp with

8 us. He wasn't in the Manjaca camp, which means that he didn't leave this

9 place alive. They took him away.

10 And then there was talk amongst us that Bosko paid him back for

11 some kind of earlier incident, because he would make fun of him. He

12 would joke at his expense when he retired. So this is how this other guy

13 paid him back for that.

14 Q. Did you -- you mentioned that you saw approximately eight corpses

15 near the buses that morning. Can you tell us, did you learn what

16 happened to those corpses?

17 A. Approximately -- well, the same thing happened to them as with

18 Dedo Crnalic.

19 Q. Were those corpses taken away that day?

20 A. [Microphone not activated] ... Bozidar Popovic, the camp

21 commander at Manjaca, to accept the dead bodies. The corpses were later

22 put back on the buses, and according to my information, these bodies were

23 exhumed in 1998, 1999, 2000. And specifically this Dedo Crnalic, whom I

24 knew well, he was an elderly gentleman. Those corpses were not accepted

25 at the Manjaca camp. They were taken back to the buses. This is a fact.

Page 15732

1 And we exhumed Dedo's body in Srbac, which is below Banja Luka. It's

2 about -- it's below Banja Luka, because these bodies were thrown into the

3 Vrbas River. As they were returning from Manjaca, they threw the corpses

4 into the river, and then down river they were buried somewhere, and then

5 we exhumed them. And then after 2000, the family asked for the bodies,

6 and he was exhumed, identified, and buried at the request of the family.

7 I attended the funeral.

8 Q. How long did you remain at Manjaca camp?

9 A. I was in Manjaca until the 14th or the 15th of November. From

10 the 6th of August, we entered on the 7th, in the morning, and I left

11 Manjaca - I was the oldest in my group, the first group that left - on

12 the 14th. The night between the 14th and the 15th of November.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the year.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we had spent some 100 days

15 there, until the 15th of November, when, through the mediation of the

16 Red Cross, we were transferred to Karlovac.

17 MR. OLMSTED:

18 Q. And just to clarify, that was the 14th or 15th of November, 1992?

19 A. Yes, yes, correct.

20 Q. Now during your time at the Manjaca camp, did any police

21 officers, civilian police officers, interview you about what had happened

22 to the detainees on the night of the 6th and 7th of August, 1992?

23 A. I didn't have the opportunity to speak about that. But there was

24 some policemen there, reserve policemen, who were from Sanski Most. I'm

25 not from Sanski Most, but I was with friends from Sanski Most, so one of

Page 15733

1 these policemen that they knew from Sana, we were sitting there in the

2 kitchen talking and he said that those dead bodies were returned also and

3 thrown into the Vrbas River. But I didn't have too many contacts nor did

4 I speak too much about these reserve policemen who were guarding us.

5 Because they were mines around, even one man lost a leg. So it was a

6 problem to stay in one place for too long or to move around, even though

7 I must say that the situation in Manjaca was much better than the

8 situation in Omarska, because the Red Cross came, they gave us blankets,

9 food, and so on.

10 Q. You mentioned these police officers from Sanski Most. Do you

11 know, while they were at the camp, were they investigating this

12 particular incident, this crime committed against Mr. Crnalic and the

13 other detainees who were killed outside of Manjaca camp, to your

14 knowledge?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour. It's beyond the issue of

16 the adjudicated facts.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody ever took anyone. Oh,

18 sorry, nobody ever investigated the matter, not why we were there, why

19 people were killed, or anything like that.

20 MR. OLMSTED: No further questions, Your Honours.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Murselovic. In view of all the

24 things that you have experienced and all the things that you have gone

25 through, I would like to express Mr. Zupljanin's sympathy. And now I

Page 15734

1 will have to ask you about some details about what you are testifying

2 about.

3 A. Very well.

4 Q. Just one question: You are still performing a duty in the

5 Prijedor municipality, I assume?

6 A. No. In this mandate which is running out, I was a deputy in the

7 People's Assembly of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. There were recent elections. Were you re-elected?

9 A. No, I did not run for that level. I was running for the post of

10 president or, rather, vice-president, of the Republika Srpska, and the

11 results have not been published yet.

12 Q. Well, we hope that you will be successful.

13 Mr. Murselovic, when you left Manjaca, you went to Croatia; is

14 that correct?

15 A. We were transferred to Karlovac; that's right.

16 Q. It's enough you can just say yes or no.

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. At a later period, you came to Sanski Most; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Which year was that in?

21 A. This was in 1995.

22 Q. You returned to Prijedor after the Dayton Agreement was signed;

23 is that right?

24 A. I came back to Prijedor after the first multi-party elections in

25 1997. The elections were held in November 1997, and already in October,

Page 15735

1 November, December I had come back to Prijedor in order to set up this

2 new multi-party authority.

3 Q. In 1997, you provided a statement to the OTP; is that correct?

4 A. Most probably, yes.

5 Q. After that, you testified in two cases here, as you said earlier.

6 If you can just say yes or no for the transcript.

7 A. Yes, yes. In the Stakic and Brdjanin cases.

8 Q. And in the period from this incident at Manjaca until 1997, did

9 you give a statement to authorised investigative organs of the

10 Federation, or some foreign services, relating to the incidents that you

11 witnessed in Manjaca; did you provide any such statements?

12 A. Yes, yes. Immediately when we were brought to Karlovac, all of

13 us inmates passed through an interview. We called it an interview.

14 During the first seven or eight days, we had to provide blood and urine

15 samples, go through an examination, and then representatives of

16 international organisations interviewed us. I don't know who those

17 people were, but all of us had to go through this process. And we spoke

18 about all the things that we had experienced. This was in Karlovac, in a

19 barracks somewhere in town. I don't remember exactly where it was. It

20 was somewhere in the centre of town.

21 Q. And did you sign the statement that provided at the time?

22 A. I don't remember in 1992 whether I signed it or not. They wanted

23 to have some facts from us, where we were, where did we go, what we

24 experienced, and so on and so forth. All of us who came from the Manjaca

25 camp had to give these statements. Well, we thought this was kind of

Page 15736

1 strange, funny. We were all traumatised, frustrated, so we did give a

2 statement, all of us. This was when we were released. This was sometime

3 in November or December 1992, and it took place in Karlovac. We probably

4 did sign something, but I really cannot remember that now.

5 Q. I know that it's been quite some time ago. At the time, did you

6 refer to the Manjaca incident when you gave this statement, if you

7 remember?

8 A. Most probably, yes. I probably did. Because all the things that

9 were important I did mention them. I mean, this interview took a whole

10 day. They asked everybody something.

11 Q. Upon your arrival to Sanski Most in 1995, did you give a

12 statement to the police, the investigators, to the AID, or anybody else

13 about your experience at Manjaca?

14 A. No. Nobody asked me about that.

15 Q. When you took over your new office in 1995, I think you were also

16 the -- a deputy in the Assembly of RS?

17 A. I was president of the municipality of Prijedor, or -- and

18 vice-president too. And then I also -- later on I also became a member

19 of parliament, and I was elected three times to the Assembly of the RS.

20 Q. I suppose that as a deputy, as a politician, to this day you

21 haven't officially initiated proceedings or taken part in proceedings

22 against the Serb perpetrators who, according to your knowledge, have

23 committed crimes. You haven't filed criminal complaints or contacted any

24 authority; right?

25 A. I didn't for the simple reason that I had actually faired well as

Page 15737

1 I have survived. So I didn't give it much thought. I thought that --

2 or, rather, I felt that my -- the mere fact that I was alive was a

3 reward.

4 Q. Mr. Murselovic, you certainly don't know, considering what you

5 went through, whether or not the police of the RS initiated criminal

6 proceedings regarding the incidents the Manjaca. You don't know, do you?

7 A. Not as far as I know. But let me tell you, two or three years

8 ago, I was summoned by the Banja Luka Public Prosecutor's Office to give

9 a statement in my capacity as a member of parliament due to the fact that

10 I was a participant of some events that happened at Manjaca. The

11 prosecutor, whose name I forget, examined me, and I related to him my

12 experiences regarding Dedo Crnalic and some others. So I did make a

13 statement, and I was examined fairly. So whatever I said here today, I

14 also said to that prosecutor. And that may have been two or three years

15 ago, roughly.

16 Q. You and I and everybody from the region know where Banja Luka is,

17 but let's state it for the record any way. You gave a statement to the

18 prosecutor of the RS whose seat is in Banja Luka; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Let us return to some details, Mr. Murselovic.

21 These details are not essential for the Defence of our client

22 because there is no direct relation between him and those individuals

23 down there. But since the Prosecutor asked you, let me ask you the

24 following: You left Banja Luka in that convoy to Manjaca on

25 6 August 1992, and you testified here today that you stopped several

Page 15738

1 times on the -- on the way there and that you witnessed some hatred and

2 intolerance on the part of some Serb families who had thrown stones at

3 you; right?

4 A. They stopped mostly by roadside inns, I suppose, yes, on our way

5 to Manjaca, and that's why.

6 Q. But the point is it was war, 1992. The front line is all around.

7 Everybody is dying, Serbs, Croats, Muslims; and there is tension among

8 the Serbs and an unfavorable attitude toward other ethnicities; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And there were provocations such as stones being thrown at the

11 convoy by the Serb population; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you allow for the logical possibility that the organiser of

14 the convoy and those who provided security to it in order to reduce the

15 risk and possibly avoid provocations ordered you to lie down so that your

16 heads may not be seen. Do you allow for that possibility for -- as being

17 the reason for your position during the transportation?

18 A. No.

19 Q. During the trip to Manjaca, you said it was stuffy and that

20 everything was closed and that the heating was on and that it was warm

21 outside; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And certainly the driver who was a Serb and the police officers

24 who provided security to you had to bear the same condition as you;

25 right?

Page 15739

1 A. Probably, yes. But the driver could open the window which was

2 next to him, and we were in no position to do so.

3 Q. Well, my -- I'm asking you logically whether those escorting you

4 would want to make life difficult for themselves by making it unbearable

5 for you. Isn't that illogical? You may have exaggerated some things?

6 A. No, I most certainly haven't. That was the most difficult day of

7 my life, this trip.

8 Q. Let us return to that convoy.

9 Did they demand any money or some valuables? I mean those who

10 escorted you in -- in that convoy.

11 A. No, not in the convoy. Because we had been robbed earlier in

12 Omarska, so there was no need to do so because we were left with nothing.

13 But upon arriving at Manjaca we got searched once more. And if anybody

14 had his personal ID on him or anything of the kind, they would take it

15 away at Manjaca, if it was left on somebody at Omarska. Because at

16 Omarska people came in at different hours and under different conditions.

17 But at Manjaca, we were once again searched. They took away all our

18 personal IDs, and that's how it was. And during the ride, there was no

19 need to demand money or valuables from us because at Omarska they had

20 stripped us of everything.

21 At the time, the Seiko 5 watch was very much in vogue, and I

22 found it funny that we were constantly asking whether anybody had a

23 Seiko 5 watch. Obviously to the guards this was something very valuable.

24 Q. Based on your experience as an eye-witness, you will agree with

25 me when I say that the basic motive of this blackmailing or the extortion

Page 15740

1 of prosperous citizens was robbery, to get something out of the people;

2 correct?

3 A. Right. But that possibility was provided them. Nobody prevented

4 them from doing so.

5 Q. When you came to Manjaca, you knew some people from your escort,

6 and there's evidence that -- showing that they were also -- they also

7 knew who they wanted from those buses; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So at that moment you were unaware of the motivation of the

10 perpetrator, why they wanted a certain individual from the bus; correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. You spoke about an episode, but you allow for the possibility

13 that there were some earlier incidents that may have resulted in acts of

14 revenge, as inappropriate as that revenge may be?

15 A. Well, yes. It's possible.

16 Q. At Manjaca, it was a POW camp commanded by the army; correct?

17 A. Yes. Because that man Bozidar Popovic was a lieutenant-colonel.

18 Q. You were at Manjaca earlier, taking part in military exercises;

19 right?

20 A. Yes. But not at the camp itself. It was a cattle farm. But I

21 was very near that place at Manjaca, as a reserve soldier.

22 Q. On the right of that compound, there's a road and then there's a

23 ditch and so on. But what -- and where were the buses located with

24 regard to the compound?

25 A. Now, there are these barns on the right side, and the buses were

Page 15741

1 parked on the right.

2 Q. Was there a -- a large, free space?

3 A. Well, yes, probably. Because there were many buses. But I was

4 so exhausted, and everybody else was, that we didn't have the nerve to

5 look around a lot. And we were eager to get away from those fellow

6 Prijedor people, to call them that, and even if it meant going to

7 Manjaca.

8 Q. It was night, and visibility was poor; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the windows were misted up; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So it was difficult to see, in such conditions, who did what

13 outside the buses, what kind of incidents went on; do you agree with me?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. So you can assume some details and possibly later under more

16 favourable conditions you may have learned more details. You didn't

17 eye-witness everything; right?

18 A. Yes. I said as much. But I saw the event with Dedo. I saw him

19 being taken away, and I saw him beaten up when he was brought back, and I

20 saw him dead.

21 Q. But you cannot be sure about the others; right?

22 A. Yes. But I did see dead bodies in the morning.

23 Q. And the late Mr. Crnalic died on the bus; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your subsequent humanitarian work and social activities or,

Page 15742

1 rather, socio-political activities, at Sanski Most, on several occasions

2 you approached the court, the municipal court at Sanski Most, to make

3 statements about some persons having died, to enable their families to

4 exercise their rights; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it's logical that if you make a statement five years after

7 the incident, that is, in 1997, that such a statement is much more

8 reliable than any statement that you are making now; correct?

9 A. Yes, probably.

10 Q. Mr. Murselovic, I'm not trying to vivisect you, certainly; I'm

11 merely saying that logically at that time your memory must have been

12 better and that your answers were more detailed. So I'm not trying to

13 trap you in any way, God forbid.

14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see document

15 2D03-1259, please. Uh-huh.

16 Q. Although the letters are very small, I'll take you through some

17 of the details mentioned here.

18 This is a court ruling dated 7 February 1997. We're talking

19 about the Sanski Most Municipal Court.

20 Can you see it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And it's a ruling to declare Dedo Crnalic dead. You can see

23 that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in paragraph 3 of the ruling --

Page 15743

1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] Could we ask the Registrar to zoom

2 in on paragraph 3.

3 Q. Can you see it better?

4 A. I can see it.

5 Q. We can see that the proceedings were presided by

6 Judge Edina Ridjesic; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in that paragraph, two witnesses are mentioned; you are one

9 of them. And you say that in front of Manjaca camp, Serb soldiers took

10 out the late Crnalic out of the bus and shot him before the eyes of the

11 other inmates.

12 A. That's what it says, but it didn't happen that way. They

13 probably knew that he was killed and identified, possibly exhumed

14 already; I'm not sure. But that he was shot before the eyes of the other

15 inmates, that's not true. It says here: With other -- with him and

16 other inmates from the Omarska camp to the Manjaca camp, and so on, but

17 Dedo and seven other inmates were taken off the bus and shot in plain

18 view of the other inmates, and so ...

19 I'm reading it.

20 Q. No, no. Please don't read it because we don't want it all on the

21 record. I'll help you.

22 A. [No interpretation]

23 Q. So before the court at Sanski Most as a witness under oath you

24 gave this statement; correct?

25 A. Well --

Page 15744

1 Q. And in this statement, 1997, five years after the incident, you

2 said that Serb soldiers had taken seven persons off the bus and shot this

3 man Dedo Crnalic. This is what it says.

4 A. Yes, that's what it says.

5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation] I see my learned friend on his

6 feet.

7 MR. OLMSTED: Yes, Your Honours, I'm a bit confused as to the

8 purpose of this line of questioning. I assumed from Mr. Pantelic's

9 questions, foundational questions, that he is trying to refresh this

10 witness's memory as to what happened on the 6th and 7th of August, 1992.

11 So it's unclear; is Mr. Pantelic claiming that the detainees who were

12 killed on that date were shot? Is that what he's claiming? Otherwise, I

13 don't see the purpose of this line of questioning.

14 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

15 MR. PANTELIC: Just be patient and we shall cover that issue.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: But, Mr. Pantelic, I was looking for the

17 reference that you had made to the fact that it was soldiers who took out

18 the prisoners from the bus and shot them.

19 Where do you find this reference?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, this is -- the paragraph stated --

21 it's in their statements, both proposed witnesses specified the date and

22 the time, et cetera, et cetera.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: If I may be of -- of assistance, Your Honours.

24 The Serbian text says the Serbian soldiers took out of the bus

25 and -- and shot, and the English translation omits the Serbian soldiers.

Page 15745

1 MR. PANTELIC: So, for the record, Your Honour, I think the best

2 solution is that witness just read out this particular portion, that we

3 have a clear record.

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Yes, obviously, because the English translation

5 does not reflect the information that this was done by soldiers.

6 MR. PANTELIC: And then later on we could ask, from translation

7 unit, to -- to rectify this particular part.

8 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, before we proceed, again, I mean,

9 this is not this witness's statement. This is a ruling by a municipal

10 court in 1997 on evidence we don't what the basis of it is. We just have

11 some kind of interpretation of events.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Olmsted, we are fully aware of what this is.

13 My question was only triggered by Mr. Pantelic's reference to the fact

14 that this had been done by soldiers. The matter is now clarified. We

15 can ask the witness to read it out, and let's move on.

16 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. I kindly ask you, Mr. Murselovic, to read the paragraph slowly

18 which begins with the words: "Both ..."

19 A. It says in the paragraph:

20 "In their statements, both proposed witnesses specified in detail

21 the time and place of death of Dedo Crnalic. Witness Muharem Murselovic

22 said that Dedo Crnalic was taken on the bus together with him and the

23 other inmates and was taken by bus to the Omarska camp. Arriving at the

24 Manjaca camp, Dedo and seven other inmates were taken off the bus by

25 Serbian soldiers and shot in place view of the other inmates. In his

Page 15746

1 statement, witness Atif," something, maybe Draganovic, "said that he was

2 at the Manjaca camp when the buses with the inmates from the Omarska camp

3 arrived, and he watched with other inmates as eight inmates from the

4 Omarska camp were taken off the bus and shot in front of the bus and

5 their bodies were thrown on a heap. Among the killed, the witness

6 recognised Dedo Crnalic whom he knew from before the war from sports

7 activities."

8 Q. Thank you. That is it.

9 And now, the point is this: In view of the circumstances that

10 you confirmed earlier here, in terms of the time and the physical

11 elements, and in view of these two pieces of information that you have,

12 you allow that there were Serb soldiers who took part in this, on the

13 basis of this statement; is that correct?

14 A. No. The fact that -- where it says that they were shot in plain

15 view, this did not happen. I never stated that. They declared them dead

16 probably on the basis of information that they were killed. In order to

17 declare someone dead, you need certain information. So I did that so

18 that they would be able to do it. I said that I had seen him dead. All

19 the things that I told you about, that he was taken off the bus, that the

20 guards took him off the bus and killed him, all of that stands, because

21 here, in this statement of reasons, it says that both witnesses said this

22 and that. I was with him. Our goal at the time was to declare him dead.

23 As for this, that he was shot, no. He was killed while wearing

24 my jacket. We had checked jackets, both, and he took mine by mistake

25 when we were going out, and I know this very well. I probably said, when

Page 15747

1 providing the statement: I saw him dead, he was killed in Manjaca, he

2 was killed while wearing my jacket, I saw him dead, I saw him when he was

3 being taken out; and this is sufficient. I don't know, though, how this

4 court put all of those facts together. I don't know that.

5 Since we're talking about certificates of death that were issued

6 en masse --

7 Q. I understand you completely. You're a witness before the court.

8 You stated this for the transcript. But the point was this: You allow

9 for the possibility that in that group there were different members,

10 guards, armed persons. What I'm saying is that there were all three

11 types of people. Do you agree with that option?

12 A. I agree that we were brought by reserve or active policemen.

13 They were policemen. They handed us over to Omarska, which was a

14 military camp. But all these guards in the camp as well, there were

15 plenty of policemen who came. But in structure, Manjaca was a military

16 camp. And we had a much better time in Omarska because there was more

17 order there. In Manjaca where all the supervision was done by the police

18 was much worse.

19 So I'm just stating that on the basis of all of the things that I

20 said, the paraphrasing in this statement of reasons or in there ruling

21 might have been slightly different. It might have been slightly

22 differently put together.

23 MR. OLMSTED: I'm not sure if this is an interpretation error or

24 perhaps the witness is a little bit confused. It seems like there's --

25 he's switching Omarska with Manjaca camp. They were taken to Manjaca

Page 15748

1 camp where they were handed over to the military commanders of that camp,

2 and the conditions were worse at Omarska than Manjaca.

3 But I'm not sure we have to go over all that. His evidence on

4 direct examination is clear on that.

5 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Murselovic, I think what the issue is really

6 about here is if can you testify to who exactly killed those seven or

7 eight detainees who were taken out of the buses that night on the

8 6th of August. So far, you have testified that, in your view, as far as

9 you recall, they were killed by the guards, that is to say, the

10 policemen, who escorted you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Policemen.

12 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ... yes. But now

13 Mr. Pantelic is suggesting to you that in fact they -- they could have

14 been killed by soldiers from Manjaca.

15 And so could you be more specific about your testimony, whether

16 it was one or the other group who --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, I can.

18 JUDGE HARHOFF: [Previous translation continues] ...

19 perpetrated --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those people were killed by the

21 escort, the police that were escorting us and that brought us in front of

22 the Manjaca camp. This is beyond any doubt.

23 The statement of the camp warden saying that he didn't want to

24 receive dead bodies meant that he was wanting to have nothing to do with

25 the killings. And the guards who guarded us that night who held us in

Page 15749

1 the buses that night, they took out those seven or eight people and

2 killed them. That is a fact. I know specifically about Dedo Crnalic,

3 when he was taken off from my bus, beaten, massacred, and that he was

4 carried in through the front door, and that he died in this bus where I

5 was.

6 JUDGE HARHOFF: And were you able to see this happening outside

7 the bus? Could you peak out through the window?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't see or peak through the

9 window. But as soon as he came out, they started beating Mr. Crnalic.

10 And he was saying, Children, please don't beat me. And they were saying,

11 We're going to make kebabs, we're going to make minced meat out of you;

12 that they would massacre him. And he said, Please, young ones, don't

13 kill me, don't beat me. And then you could hear moaning and shouting.

14 This took maybe some 20 minutes, half an hour or so, I don't

15 know. And then after 40 minutes or so, he was carried back inside

16 through the front door. They asked two people from the bus to carry him

17 inside the bus. It was dark, the lights were off, it was hot, we were

18 lying on the floor, but I was able to hear that. That's what I was able

19 to hear.

20 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Witness, can you tell us who called him out

22 and who asked other detainees on the bus to take him back in after the

23 beating?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those who brought us, the guards

25 who were escorting the convoy, they did it. The policemen who were in

Page 15750

1 our escort. They took him out. They called him out. They opened the

2 front doors and said can someone come out so that they can carry Dedo

3 back inside.

4 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... for MFI,

5 pending the translation, this particular part which is missing, if there

6 is no objection.

7 MR. OLMSTED: We object. I mean, what's the purpose? This

8 document has been read to the witness, the witness read it out loud.

9 It -- clearly he disagrees with what it states. It's not even a

10 judgement; it's a ruling on a certificate of death. So its evidence is

11 minimal with any value [sic].

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, we have -- this witness was also

13 witness, and he was a part of these proceedings before the court in

14 Sanski Most. He -- he confirmed that. So I don't see any particular --

15 particular reason not to have this document for the future moment where

16 we shall go to the interpretation and, you know, explanation of each

17 position. OTP will have possibility to give their position; and we,

18 ours.

19 MR. OLMSTED: Really, this creates this troubling, vicious circle

20 that we've encountered before. They're putting forth a ruling, signed by

21 someone who is not a witness here. Without calling the person who signed

22 this document, we have no idea where, really, this information came from.

23 We've heard from the witness that he denies this information as accurate.

24 So really it's opening the door to a whole bunch of evidence on a

25 document that really is of minimal value.

Page 15751

1 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm really sorry, but I would like the Office of

4 the Prosecution to clarify their position. If this document, which is a

5 certificate of death of one of the victims which are in our indictment,

6 is of minimal value, I don't know what is of greater value in this case.

7 MR. OLMSTED: It's not in dispute that this person was killed.

8 That is clear. The question is: What value does it have beyond that

9 particular fact?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: It is in dispute, Your Honours.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE HALL: Whereas an argument could be made along the lines

13 that Mr. Olmsted is formulating it, the relevance of this document is

14 patent. And it's now as good a time as any to admit it.

15 So --

16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm sorry. With respect, we're back

17 to -- and I'm sorry. I'm taking over from Mr. Olmsted at this stage.

18 This document which the witness says is wrong is being put in to

19 prove, the Defence say, that he is unreliable and not credible when he

20 says this man was suffocated. It's being put in to prove the truth of

21 what is contained in that document.

22 Your Honours, that is not a proper proceeding.

23 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, the -- there is a clearly a

24 contradiction, and it is obvious the purpose for which the Defence would

25 wish to rely on this document. At this point, they have clearly set out

Page 15752

1 what -- where they hope to be. I was saying -- I go back a few minutes

2 in the document. We -- our ruling is this document should be marked for

3 identification at this point.

4 But the -- it is inherent, in the process in which we are

5 engaged, that contradictions such as this would occur. And the -- it is

6 a resolution which, if the Chamber finds that the truth of the contents

7 of this document, as distinct from the document merely being a piece of

8 paper is something it should consider, is something that the Tribunal

9 would have to waive. That's the nature of evidence.

10 But what we have is what purports to be a ruling from a -- a - is

11 it a court? - from a -- from an official organ of state which, on the

12 face of it, contradicts the witness's evidence, so it's ...

13 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, that's -- that's the -- that's the

14 whole point. Whether Your Honours -- I'm perfectly happy, but we haven't

15 had this situation. If you say that official documents we don't have to

16 prove that they're the -- the truth or otherwise, then they're simply

17 going in provided they're relevant. But that is not what Your Honours

18 have not been ruling up so far. So far. We have had endless arguments

19 and discussion about this. And this particular document is being put in

20 not because it's an official organ but because it is suggested that

21 because this is contained in this document without hearing any witness as

22 to what happened Your Honours should accept that this witness is wrong.

23 Now, Your Honours --

24 JUDGE HALL: Don't -- that's the argument that we will be invited

25 to find at the end of the ... but for the moment, the -- the document is

Page 15753

1 clearly not irrelevant. And the use of the double negative by me is

2 deliberate.

3 MS. KORNER: Very well, Your Honours.

4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

5 JUDGE HALL: So it's marked for identification pending the

6 receipt of the certified translation.

7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D113, marked for identification,

8 Your Honours.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Murselovic, and can you please tell me, during your stay in

11 Manjaca, did you speak to the camp commander and say that it was

12 necessary to investigate this incident that you witnessed, you and your

13 colleagues? Did anyone ever approach the camp commander and ask him that

14 an investigation be conducted into this matter?

15 A. No. But I need to clarify something, please, about this document

16 and --

17 Q. No, no. No. Mr. Murselovic, you need to perhaps explain that to

18 the Prosecutor. There are different rules in force here now.

19 I asked you --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- whether you spoke to the security, military security organs,

22 in the Manjaca camp, to an investigator, or the camp commander to

23 initiate proceedings against the perpetrators of this crime. Yes or no?

24 A. No.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I don't have further

Page 15754

1 questions for this witness. Thank you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE HALL: The -- before -- sorry.

4 Mr. Pantelic, your cross-examination is concluded?

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I don't have --

6 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Before I invite counsel for Stanisic -- for

7 Mr. Stanisic to cross-examine, the witness wanted to -- whereas we're

8 reluctant for witnesses to volunteer testimony, there was some

9 clarification the witness wanted to make, and it appears to be pertinent.

10 So could you go ahead with the intervention that you wanted to

11 make, Mr. Murselovic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must first say that I was called

13 as a witness upon the request of the wife of Dedo Crnalic to confirm

14 whether or not he was killed at Omarska and whether I had seen him dead,

15 and I confirmed I did. I said I saw when he was called and I saw him

16 dead. And that's the first thing that I did.

17 I didn't read the minutes or sign it. I did that for her to take

18 care of some private business, supposedly, so I only stated that I saw

19 that he was killed.

20 That was number one.

21 And the second thing I want to say is the following: Do you

22 think that we were supposed to raise issues with the military commander

23 of Manjaca such as why these people were killed rather than some others?

24 Do you think that we were at liberty to address the camp commander with

25 such issues, why some people were killed? I mean, that's ridiculous.