101012ED

Page 15778

1 Tuesday, 12 October 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,

6 everybody in and around the courtroom.

7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

8 Stojan Zupljanin.

9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Good morning to everyone.

11 May we begin in the usual manner by taking the appearances,

12 please.

13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours. Alex Demirdjian for

14 the Prosecution, with Tom Hannis and Crispian Smith.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,

16 Slobodan Cvijetic, and Eugene O'Sullivan appearing for Stanisic Defence.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,

18 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

20 Is there anything that we need do in open session before we

21 revert --

22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes, Your Honour, just a small submission in

23 relation to the motion upon which you partially ruled yesterday prior to

24 the commencement of the testimony of this witness.

25 Having been reminded of this motion, I reviewed it yesterday

Page 15779

1 afternoon, and it is a motion that was filed on 8th of July seeking to

2 amend our witness list in response to challenges to adjudicated fact.

3 This motion was dealing with a number of witnesses, including witnesses

4 from Kljuc, Teslic, Kotor Varos, et cetera, and I've noticed a

5 typographical error. And considering that you may be ruling upon this

6 motion shortly, I just wanted to bring this to your attention.

7 At paragraphs 18 to 21, we deal with a witness from Teslic. And

8 what we say in here is that he was already planned to be called by our

9 motion of the 26th of May for adjudicated facts that were rejected by the

10 1st of April decision. However, what we requested in this motion is to

11 expand his testimony as well. This was Witness ST-253 for Teslic.

12 Requested to expand his testimony because the Zupljanin Defence were

13 challenging Adjudicated Facts 1214, 1215, 1216, and 1218. And we said

14 that this was an expansion upon the evidence that we sought to call which

15 originally was in relation to Adjudicated Fact 560. And this is where

16 the typographical error comes in.

17 Adjudicated Fact 560 is in relation to the current witness, and

18 there seems to have been an error in the motion at paragraph 21, so I

19 will seek to make that correction right now. Instead of

20 Adjudicated Fact 560, paragraph 21 of that motion should have

21 Adjudicated Facts 500 to 503, as well as 504 to 505. You will find these

22 in our original motion of the 26th of May in the annexes. In relation to

23 Teslic, we had announced this witness, ST-253, for these two sets of

24 adjudicated facts.

25 I hope I haven't confused anybody with all these numbers, but

Page 15780

1 these are the clarifications that I sought to make before we called the

2 witness this morning.

3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.

4 The -- on the assumption that the -- what you have just explained

5 clarifies everything, a close reading of the transcript should make it

6 obvious as to what the correction should be. Thank you.

7 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: That's correct.

8 So we can call the witness.

9 JUDGE HALL: Yes. So we go into closed session.

10 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Yes.

11 [Closed session]

12 (redacted)

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Page 15781

11 Pages 15781-15836 redacted. Closed session.

Page 15838

1 --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

2 [The witness takes the stand]

3 --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.

4 JUDGE HALL: Good afternoon to you again, sir.

5 Now that we have settled on the mode in which you would give your

6 testimony, there are a number of other preliminary questions which the

7 Chamber would put to you before counsel for the Prosecution begins.

8 The -- I assume that counsel for the Prosecution has a pseudonym

9 sheet which I would invite the usher to pass to you, and if you're

10 satisfied with the particulars on it, you would sign it and hand it back

11 to her, please.

12 So that is admitted under seal.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1642, under seal, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE HALL: And if we could go into private session, there are

15 two questions that I have to ask you.

16 [Private session]

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Page 15839

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE HALL: Have you -- well, we know from the earlier part of

9 your examination that you have not testified previously before this

10 Tribunal. And I would indicate to you, briefly, the procedure. That is,

11 that the side calling - in this case, the Prosecution - would begin by

12 asking you questions. And then the Defence would, for each of the

13 accused, would have a right to question you, arising out of what

14 you would have -- the answers you would have given in your questions

15 to -- put to you by the Prosecution. And then the Prosecution would have

16 a right to ask you questions arising out of their -- their questions.

17 And when counsel are through, the Chamber -- or indeed at any

18 earlier stage, the Chamber may have questions of you, and your -- that

19 would then conclude your testimony.

20 Ms. Pidwell, what I have before me, you have indicated four

21 hours. Is that -- does that still hold?

22 MS. PIDWELL: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

24 And counsel for the Defence, what is your estimate of the length

25 of time that your cross-examination would take?

Page 15840

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we estimate that we

2 need two sessions for this witness, maximum of three hours.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

4 continues] ... it is also our estimate, that we need two sessions to

5 examine this witness.

6 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

7 Well the -- you would have heard what has -- what counsel has

8 just -- the answers that counsel has just given in terms of the time that

9 they expect to spend with you, so that gives you an idea as to how long

10 you will be with us. But you needn't be alarmed that those would be

11 continuous periods because A, for technical reasons having to do with the

12 tapes by which the record is perpetuated and also to allow for the

13 comfort of a witness, counsel, and everybody else, we do not sit for

14 periods of longer than an hour and a half. And the -- and also, because

15 the courtrooms have to be shared with other trials, we only sit for -- a

16 morning session is either from 9.00 to 1.45; and if it's an afternoon

17 session, it's from 2.15 to 7.00 in the evening. But as I said, that --

18 those sitting days are divided into session of no more than 90 minutes.

19 You are beginning your testimony in the third and final session

20 for today, so that we would be rising at -- for the day in an hour --

21 in -- in an hour and three minutes. And when we resume tomorrow

22 afternoon, we are scheduled to begin in the afternoon at 2.15. So

23 when your testimony -- when we adjourn today, your testimony will be

24 continued at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.

25 And with that, I would invite counsel for the Prosecution to

Page 15841

1 begin.

2 Examination by Ms. Pidwell:

3 Q. Sir, firstly I want to deal with your -- with history of your

4 contact with the members of the Office of the Prosecution.

5 Is it correct that the only time you were interviewed by the

6 Office of the Prosecutor was in Belgrade on the 25th of May this year?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And during the course of that interview, you had your lawyer

9 present?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was your lawyer's name?

12 A. Jovo Dimitric.

13 Q. And since your arrival in The Hague, have you been given the

14 opportunity to read the transcript of that interview?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. And did you request any amendments or changes to be made to that

17 transcript?

18 A. No, I did not. It was not necessary.

19 MS. PIDWELL: Your Honour, I'm going deal with the witness's

20 background now, and I'd ask that we go into private session for that,

21 please.

22 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15842

11 Pages 15842-15843 redacted. Private session.

Page 15845

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14 Q. Was it your job to fill in this roster, or was it someone else's

15 job?

16 A. I did that. It was my job.

17 Q. And from these -- this duty roster, was it also part of your job

18 description to compile reports?

19 A. Yes. At that time, we made quarterly reports that were submitted

20 to the Centre of Security Services, and I believe also the Ministry of

21 Interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. What were the nature of the quarterly reports?

23 A. As far as I can remember, they would give reports for the past

24 three months for law enforcement, operative information collected,

25 traffic accidents. But we had on our desk an instruction, how to make

Page 15846

1 these reports. Sometimes they were written reports; sometimes they were

2 statistical.

3 Q. How were these reports then transmitted to the CSB?

4 A. I believe, at that time, by courier service. Part of the reports

5 were sent by teletype, through the communications centre. And these are

6 the two types of communication we had with the centre.

7 Q. Now, besides these rosters of duty that we've spoken about, what

8 other records were required to be kept by -- by you?

9 A. There were many different records at the time. I wouldn't be

10 able to remember them all, but we had that duty roster; then the record

11 of people brought in, people detained; a record of fines collected; a

12 record of crimes committed, including serious and less serious ones;

13 record of misdemeanours with a breakdown into public order disturbances

14 and traffic violations; and I think many other records.

15 Q. And in the same way, were reports then compiled from these

16 records for the CSB?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You spoke about a record of people being brought in, people

19 detained. What form did that take?

20 A. Those were standardised forms in which you wrote in the

21 information. You had just to write in the name and attach an

22 Official Note, in case of a detention. All these standardised forms were

23 filed in pursuant to the instruction, which said exactly how you fill in

24 that form, what you write in each box. That's how we did it.

25 Q. And in the case of someone being brought in, what information

Page 15847

1 would you input into this form?

2 A. If somebody was brought in, we had to indicate why, whether it

3 was for the purposes of an interview, or at the request of a court or

4 some other state authority. And therein lies the difference between

5 "brought in" and "detained." People could be brought in with a warrant

6 or without a warrant. A person can be brought in simply by exercising

7 the authorisations that police officers have vested in them, without any

8 warrant. Or they can be brought in on a warrant by the court or some

9 other authority.

10 Q. So if the person is brought in by a police officer without a

11 warrant, this form is filled in. And then what are the standard

12 procedures that then follow?

13 A. From those forms, the policemen on duty wrote a report addressed

14 to the commander and the chief; and from that daily report, you can see

15 all the work that was done by the police station for the past 24 hours.

16 Q. In such a situation, who would make the decision to conduct an

17 investigation or interview, rather, of the person who was brought in?

18 A. Concerning people who were brought in without a warrant, just

19 pursuant to basic police authority, the police officer who brought him in

20 would fill in the form, or the officer on duty. If somebody was brought

21 in on a court warrant, then the court would order specific policemen to

22 bring in a -- the person to the court or some other agency. And once

23 that is done, the police officer's job is -- is finished there.

24 Q. Yes. But on arrival at the police station, if someone's being

25 detained without a warrant, who makes the decision to interview them?

Page 15848

1 A. Well, it depends. He was brought in -- that person was brought

2 in perhaps for an interview by the Criminal Investigation Service, or

3 maybe the chief wanted him, or one of the deputies. It's always written

4 on paper why the person was brought in.

5 Q. Did -- so did the chief actually conduct investigation --

6 interviews himself in some circumstances, or was that left to the

7 Criminal Investigation Service?

8 A. Most often, interviews were conducted by the

9 Criminal Investigation Service.

10 Q. Where did those interviews take place?

11 A. All interviews with persons detained were conducted on the

12 official premises of the -- of the agency that had the person brought in.

13 If it was for the purposes of the Criminal Investigation Service, then in

14 their offices. If the person was brought in for the requirements of the

15 police, then in police stations. If the commander wanted that person to

16 be brought in, then in his office.

17 Q. And just to clarify, in your municipality, where were the offices

18 of the Criminal Investigation Service?

19 A. Upstairs. On the same floor as the office of the chief and the

20 office of the commander.

21 Q. So when you say "upstairs," you're meaning the SJB building

22 itself?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. On that note, could you explain the various departments which

25 made up the SJB in your municipality.

Page 15849

1 A. Well, the core service was the police; then there was a

2 Criminal Investigation Service; traffic regulation; and the service for

3 contacts with the citizenry.

4 Q. Who did the heads of each of those services report to?

5 A. To the chief and to the commander.

6 Q. What were the requirements to report? Was it monthly or daily

7 or ... are you able to provide us with any information on that?

8 A. Well, the policemen on duty - and I'm talking about the times

9 before the war - would report to the commander every morning. And after

10 that report, he would submit also a written daily report that the chief

11 would review. That was one way of reporting.

12 Q. How often was the head of the Criminal Investigation Service

13 obliged to report to the chief or the commander?

14 A. At the morning briefing, these reports would be made to the chief

15 over coffee.

16 Q. I'm assuming from your answer you mean these are oral reports.

17 A. Oral reports were made every morning; whereas written reports

18 were submitted every three months. There were reports written for the

19 requirements of the station and for the requirements of the centre, and

20 also the republic level, Secretariat for Internal Affairs.

21 MS. PIDWELL: Could we go back into private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 15850

11 Page 15850 redacted. Private session.

Page 15851

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

16 MS. PIDWELL:

17 Q. Without naming these people, what was the responsibility of

18 commanders in a substation to report to the overriding SJB under whose

19 authority they were?

20 A. Substation police department were practically police stations in

21 a micro area, and it was their duty to regularly, on a daily basis,

22 report to the commander of the police station. It was their duty, too,

23 to report on certain matters to the chief of the station. So they are

24 police stations in a micro location.

25 Q. You've said that there's an obligation to report, on a daily

Page 15852

1 basis, to the commander but also, on certain matters, to the chief of the

2 station.

3 What are the certain matters that would require a commander of a

4 substation to report to the chief, as opposed to the commander?

5 A. It was the practice that information of interest acquired from

6 operative work of interest for the work of the national or the state

7 security would be conveyed by the commanders to the chief. At least

8 that's how it was in my station.

9 Q. How would this be conveyed?

10 A. Person-to-person meetings, because they would usually meet every

11 seven days. Or by using special telephone communications, secure

12 telephones that operated from the station section to the police station,

13 and police station to the centre.

14 Q. Can you please explain a little bit about how these special

15 telephone communications worked?

16 A. Besides regular PTT lines, the public security station also had a

17 special telephone. We used to call it the "specijal," the special, which

18 was installed in the secretary's or the chief's office. And also in the

19 substations; they would also have the same phones there.

20 Q. And what made this telephone line special?

21 A. A lot of information was protected at that time, which was of

22 interest from the security point of view. So it was protected from being

23 wire-tapped, because the phones could be tapped. And it was also used

24 for urgent, quick information, if something needed to be reported

25 quickly.

Page 15853

1 Q. And you said this -- this secure line was based in the office of

2 the chief of the SJB. Do you know where, when he used it to call the

3 CSB, where it was located in the CSB building?

4 A. I don't know about that. But probably the CSB chief also had a

5 special phone. Also probably the chief of the criminal investigation's

6 police in Banja Luka did. These are special communications that existed

7 in the organs of internal affairs at the time.

8 As for who had them in Banja Luka, I don't know. I assume that

9 if it was at some lower level, it would be in the office of the chief in

10 the police station, and the chief of the centre too.

11 Q. Did you personally use this special line?

12 A. I don't remember, but probably. I spoke from time to time with

13 the chief of police in Banja Luka - not the chief of the centre, but the

14 chief of the police - before the war.

15 Q. Can you give us an example of something that was so urgent that

16 it justified the use of this telephone, this special telephone, to

17 Banja Luka?

18 A. I noted already at the beginning about some information acquired

19 throughout operations that was of interest for the work of the national

20 security. Perhaps some urgent interventions. If something happened, if

21 an employee was hurt while physical force or a rubber bat was used. So

22 some events in the field of criminal work or traffic operations. Also

23 some other confidential-type information too.

24 Q. So besides this special telephone line, what other means did you

25 have to report to the CSB in Banja Luka?

Page 15854

1 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Pidwell, before we leave the special line, I

2 would like to ask the witness how this special line was powered.

3 Do you know? Did it run by the ordinary power system, or was it

4 powered by a special generator?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the telephones were connected

6 through the PTT exchange, and some of the special lines -- actually, the

7 special lines were protected in the PTT exchange. The president of the

8 municipality, the president of the committee at that time, also had a

9 special line.

10 JUDGE HARHOFF: I understand. But my question was merely, What

11 would happen if there was a power cut and no electricity available?

12 Would the special line then still be operational?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a PTT connection. If we, in

14 the police station, didn't have electricity, the phones would still be

15 working.

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: And would the PTT lines sometimes be broken off?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I understand, we're still

18 talking about the period before the war. So I don't recall any

19 electricity cuts then. If there was, like, a regular power cut, we had a

20 generator in the police station.

21 JUDGE HARHOFF: Thank you so much.

22 MS. PIDWELL:

23 Q. Sir, besides this -- this special telephone line, what other

24 means did you have to report to the CSB in Banja Luka?

25 A. We could report through the communications system and through the

Page 15855

1 PTT dispatch communications, as well as by the traditional messenger

2 system, method.

3 Q. When you say "the communications system," what do you mean by

4 that?

5 A. I meant radio stations, fixed radio stations. And also via

6 teleprinter. Some information that had to be protected would be sent

7 through the teleprinter network, and they would be encrypted.

8 Q. And when you say "the PTT dispatch communications," what do you

9 mean by that?

10 A. On that matter, there was a specific instruction, a document,

11 about urgent, current, and periodical reporting, and I cannot remember

12 right now what was implied by urgent, what was implied by current, and

13 what by periodical type of reporting. But in any case, this instruction

14 existed, and this flow of information was going from the police station,

15 or the public security station, up to the Security Services Centre.

16 Q. And just further to clarify, when you say that this flow of

17 information is going up to the Security Services Centre by this

18 PTT dispatch, is that a -- is that a telex, is that a dispatch, is it

19 paper, is it -- can you please just clarify what that form of

20 communication was?

21 A. This was written communication on paper. There would be a

22 description of what was happening and then this would be typed into the

23 teleprinter, if it was confidential information that the station was

24 dispatching. And it was sent along the lines of operation. It would be

25 sent to the police, the police section in Banja Luka, the criminal

Page 15856

1 investigation police sector in Banja Luka, and then the relevant chiefs

2 would communicate with each other, chief to chief.

3 Q. Finally, you described the -- you used the phrase "a traditional

4 messenger system."

5 What do you mean by that?

6 A. By regular messenger post. There would be a courier with a

7 brief-case going to Banja Luka monthly, bringing in the mail which would

8 come from the republican SUP and also the mail that the centre was

9 sending to us. And he would, in turn, also be delivering the mail that

10 we were sending to the centre. This would be the messenger service.

11 Q. Was this service available on an urgent basis?

12 A. Not always. It depends. If it was urgent, then it would be sent

13 in the way I described. It would be done on the basis of the

14 instructions. It would be done by dispatch, by special communication,

15 the direct PTT line, and via personal contacts. If any of the superior

16 officers would go to Banja Luka, to the centre, they would meet with

17 their colleague over there. They would exchange information and agree on

18 the job.

19 Q. Were you required to go to Banja Luka for face-to-face meetings?

20 A. At that time, I would just go for the regular meetings of

21 commanders and their deputies, not otherwise.

22 Q. How often would these regular meetings take place?

23 A. I cannot remember. But it would be monthly, one meeting with

24 commanders and deputies. The meetings were organised by the chief of the

25 police department, when we're talking about the police. From time to

Page 15857

1 time, these meetings were attended by the chief of the centre and by the

2 police station chiefs. It all depended on the security assessment in the

3 field at the time and the various actions that were ongoing, events.

4 Q. Was the chief of the SJB obliged to attend similar meetings at

5 the CSB?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were these separate from the meetings that you attended?

8 A. The police meetings would usually deal with the lines of

9 operations, so I assume that the meetings would be held between chiefs,

10 chiefs would go to see the chiefs of, let's say, the investigation --

11 Criminal Investigation Service and so on. And then you would also have

12 meetings among the chiefs of stations and then the centres.

13 MS. PIDWELL: If we can go into private session, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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Page 15858

11 Page 15858 redacted. Private session.

Page 15859

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13 [Open session]

14 MS. PIDWELL: I just want to ask you --

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.

16 MS. PIDWELL:

17 Q. I just want to ask you very briefly about the disciplinary

18 measures that were available in your SJB.

19 Perhaps we can take an example. If a police officer commits a

20 crime during the course of his duty, could you explain the procedures

21 that were required when that came to your attention.

22 A. As far as I can recall, before the war, there were disciplinary

23 commissions of the first degree at each public security station. And if

24 what you referred to would happen, that authorised person would be

25 suspended immediately, until the regular court proceedings were