Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16076

 1                           Monday, 18 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.

11             May we have the appearances, please.

12             MR. RINDI:  For the Office of the Prosecutor, Francesco Rindi,

13     Joanna Korner, and Crispian Smith.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Eugene O'Sullivan, Ms. Tatjana Savic, and Ms. Jessica Lacey appearing for

16     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

18     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And if there are no preliminary or other

20     housekeeping matters, could the next witness be escorted in, please.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  I trust that you can hear

23     me in a language that you understand?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I can hear you very

25     well.

Page 16077

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Please make the solemn declaration that the

 2     usher has now passed to you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  IVO ATLIJA

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  You may be seated.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  The solemn declaration that you have just made

10     obliges you under penalty of being dealt with for perjury, under the

11     Statutes which -- under which this Tribunal sits, should you give false

12     or misleading testimony.

13             Could you give us your name, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ivo Atlija.

15             JUDGE HALL:  And what is your date of birth, your profession, and

16     your ethnicity?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on the 19th of May, 1963.  I

18     am a civil engineer, technician.  And, by ethnicity, I'm Croat.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And have you given evidence previously

20     before this Tribunal or before any of the courts in one of the countries

21     that comprise the former Yugoslavia?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified before this Tribunal in

23     two cases, I believe.

24             JUDGE HALL:  In which case I need only remind you of the

25     Tribunal's procedure.  That is, that the side calling - in this case, the

Page 16078

 1     Prosecution - begins, after which the side opposite.  That is, the

 2     Defence for each of the two accused would have a right to ask questions

 3     of you, and the Prosecution can then re-examine.  And at that stage, or

 4     indeed at any earlier stage, the Bench may have questions of you.

 5             The -- it is expected that your testimony would be completed in

 6     the course of the first part of this day.  We sit for no longer than an

 7     hour and a half at a stretch, because -- for two reasons:  One is that

 8     the tapes that comprise the record of this Tribunal have to be changed at

 9     90-minute intervals and that also allows for the convenience of

10     witnesses, the Bench, counsel, and everyone else.  But notwithstanding

11     those settled breaks, if at any time you have the need to take a break,

12     if you indicate that to us, we would, of course, accommodate you.

13             It is expected that the Prosecution would spend a total of an

14     hour and a half in their questions, and each of the accused -- counsel

15     for each of the accused have indicated that they would spend 30 minutes.

16             So with that, I would invite Mr. Rindi to begin.

17                           Examination by Mr. Rindi:

18        Q.   Mr. Atlija, I would like to ask you a few more questions on your

19     background.

20             Did you do your military service in 1982 [Realtime transcript

21     read in error "1992"] in Skopje, Macedonia?

22        A.   Yes, that's true.  I served in Skopje in Macedonia.  In 1982, not

23     1992.

24        Q.   And in 1983, did you take up a job as a technician at the Central

25     Repair Shop for Ljubija Mines in Prijedor?

Page 16079

 1        A.   Yes, that's true.

 2        Q.   And did you leave Bosnia and Herzegovina on the

 3     17th of November, 1992?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Atlija, I would like to focus your attention on the

 6     events of the 30th of April, 1992.

 7             First of all, where were you living on the 30th of April, 1992?

 8        A.   On the 30th of April, 1992, I was living in Prijedor in an

 9     apartment that belonged to my father, and it's in a part of town called

10     Pecani.  The street was Akif Seremet Street.  I forget the number.

11        Q.   Did you go to work that day?

12        A.   That morning I went to work like any other day.

13        Q.   And when you left home to go to work that day, did you notice

14     anything unusual in the streets of Prijedor?

15        A.   The first thing I noticed, crossing the small canal from Pecani

16     to the stadium in Rudar, there's a small bridge, and next to that bridge

17     there was the first check-point or bunker manned by five or six soldiers.

18     And further on, as I was going towards the central work-shop, there were

19     more and more check-points there, especially around the municipal

20     building.  At that time, it was also the police station and the court.

21     There were several of those check-point bunkers, and you could see

22     soldiers with all kinds of insignia all the way up to the building of the

23     central work-shop in Prijedor.

24        Q.   On who was manning these check-points?

25        A.   At those check-points, there were uniformed men wearing the

Page 16080

 1     uniforms of the former Yugoslav People's Army with the insignia of the

 2     former JNA but also wearing all kinds of other insignia, the Serbian

 3     tricolour, the white eagle, the Chetnik kokades from the Second World

 4     War.  There were people who wore part uniform part civilian clothes but

 5     also carrying weapons.

 6        Q.   What was the ethnicity of the individuals manning the

 7     check-points?

 8        A.   Some of them I knew.  They were Serbs.  But I didn't know most of

 9     the people I saw.  However, they were all Serbs.

10        Q.   You told us that you saw people wearing all kinds of other

11     insignia, among which the Serbian tricolour.  Do you know who those

12     individuals were?  Do you know if they belonged to any particular armed

13     formation?

14        A.   At that time, the town of Prijedor and that whole area belonged,

15     in terms of establishment, to the 5th Kozara Brigade.  In other words,

16     the 5th Kozara Brigade covered that area.

17        Q.   After seeing these barricades, did you then go to work?

18        A.   Yes.  I went all the way to the central work-shop without being

19     stopped by anyone, without being asked anything by anyone, and I got

20     there around 7.00 a.m.

21        Q.   Who was the director of the repair shop for which you worked?

22        A.   The name of the director was Crnkic, I think Ekrem Crnkic.  He

23     gathered us all that morning and said that the night before, the members

24     of the Serbian Democratic Party, held by certain units, took over power

25     in the municipality of Prijedor.  And they ordered us all to go back

Page 16081

 1     home, that companies are closing down, that there is no more work for us

 2     to do.

 3        Q.   Once you received this news from your director where did you go?

 4        A.   From the central work-shop I went to the bus terminal in Prijedor

 5     because I wanted to go to Ljubija by bus, and then to go to Brisevo to

 6     see how my parents were doing and what the situation was like in Brisevo.

 7        Q.   After having had this conversation with the director of your

 8     office, did you understand what the purpose of the barricades that you

 9     had seen in Prijedor was?

10        A.   I understood, in part.  But when I got to the bus terminal in

11     Prijedor, I found there people I knew who worked in the town hall and in

12     the court and who told me that the members of these Serb units who set up

13     the check-points forced them to go back.  They did not allow them to go

14     to their workplaces in the court, in the police, in the town hall.  And

15     then I understood that it was the purpose not to allow non-Serbs to go to

16     their work and that the Serbs can therefore take over all the important

17     positions in the municipality of Prijedor.

18        Q.   You told us that you went to Brisevo that day.  How long did you

19     stay in Brisevo?

20        A.   On that day, I did go to Brisevo, and I stayed there until the

21     17th of November, 1992.

22        Q.   What was the ethnic composition of Brisevo?

23        A.   Brisevo village was a purely Croat village.

24        Q.   And whilst you were in Brisevo, the period going between May to

25     July 1992, did you ever go back to Prijedor?

Page 16082

 1        A.   No.  At that time I -- I wasn't going to Prijedor at all.

 2        Q.   Did you hear of any of your fellow villagers going to Prijedor

 3     from Brisevo?

 4        A.   Not that I heard.  But I heard that a special permit from the

 5     Serbian authorities in Ljubija was necessary to go to Prijedor.  Later

 6     on, however, one villager, Pero Dimac, managed to get that permit, went

 7     to Prijedor, but he was turned back.  Unfortunately, he was later killed

 8     in Brisevo.

 9        Q.   Did members of all three ethnicity need this permit to travel to

10     Prijedor?

11        A.   No.  The Serbs did not.

12        Q.   And do you know who was the authority who was entitled to give

13     this permit to travel?

14        A.   That permit was issued by the Serbian Crisis Staff in Ljubija.

15     And it was headed by Taranjac brothers Bosko and Djoko.  Now what

16     position exactly they occupied, I don't know.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, Slobodan and Djoko.

18             MR. RINDI:

19        Q.   Mr. Atlija, you told us that from -- the day after, from the 30th

20     of -- from the day after the 30th of April, 1992, you resided in Brisevo.

21     I would like to know if you knew whether the non-Serb inhabitants who

22     stayed in Prijedor were able to move freely around Prijedor, in Prijedor?

23        A.   In those days, I did not know.  However, later on, from talking

24     to those who had stayed in Prijedor, I learned they were not able to move

25     freely.  They had to display on their windows white flags.  And some said

Page 16083

 1     they had to wear bands on their sleeves, distinguishing them as

 2     non-Serbs.

 3        Q.   Were they able to get out of their houses at night and move at

 4     night in Prijedor?

 5        A.   I heard from them that a curfew had been imposed on non-Serbs in

 6     Prijedor.

 7        Q.   Mr. Atlija, I would now like to move forward a little bit in time

 8     and bring your attention to the early hours of the morning of the

 9     27 May 1992.

10             Where were you that day?

11        A.   In my parents' house, in Brisevo.

12        Q.   What happened that day?

13        A.   Exactly at 4.30 in the morning, the first explosions were heard.

14     We were attacked by artillery.

15        Q.   Who conducted this attack?

16        A.   The shooting came from Serbian villages Rasavci and Ostra Luka.

17        Q.   Do you know which forces conducted the attack?

18        A.   From what I know, at that time Ostra Luka belonged to or was

19     under the control of the 6th Krajina Brigade.  And Rasavci, I think, were

20     covered by the 5th Kozara brigade, but I'm not sure exactly where the

21     border, the boundary, between these two brigades lay.

22        Q.   How long did the attack last?

23        A.   Almost all day.

24        Q.   Now, from the period going from the 28th of May, so immediately

25     after the attack against Brisevo, until approximately the

Page 16084

 1     24th of July, 1992, were you and inhabitants of Brisevo able to travel

 2     freely in the municipality of Prijedor?

 3        A.   We were able to move around only in a very restricted manner.  We

 4     could go to Brisevo and Stara Lika; but towards Rasavci, Ljubija,

 5     Ostra Luka, Carakovo, Hambarine, Biscani, that area was already occupied

 6     by Serbian forces.  They had set up check-points or bunkers, armed

 7     Serbian patrols were going around.  It was not possible to move freely.

 8             MR. RINDI:  Could the Court Usher please display on the screen

 9     Exhibit P01526.  And could the court usher also give a marker to the

10     witness.

11        Q.   Mr. Atlija, can you -- could you please take a look at the map

12     which is in front of you.  Can you identify, can you see Brisevo?

13        A.   Yes, it's marked on the map.  Can you see it clearly.

14        Q.   You just told us about check-points.  Could you please mark where

15     those check-points were, in the map?

16        A.   Yes.  For instance, this road that goes from Brisevo to Ljubija,

17     at the entrance to Ljubija there were check-points.  I believe there were

18     two bunkers.  Also, if you wanted to go from Brisevo towards the Muslim

19     villages Zecovi, Carakovo, Hambarine, there is a hill there called

20     Kurevo.  It's a wooded hill.  In the area of that hill, Serb forces had

21     set up patrols and check-points, because in the forest in Kurevo a large

22     number of Muslims who had fled from these Muslim villages were hiding.

23     Also, if you wanted to go towards Ostra Luka and Rasavci which are not

24     marked here but they are here close to the Sana River, if you wanted to

25     go towards thesis villages from Brisevo you would come up against several

Page 16085

 1     check-points.  And at the entrance to Rasavci, at one place, there was

 2     even a recoilless gun.

 3        Q.   Do you know when these check-points were established?

 4        A.   I can't tell you the exact date, but all this was happening in

 5     May and June 1992.

 6        Q.   And do you know which forces manned these check-points?

 7        A.   Serb armed soldiers.  Now, which exactly units held which

 8     check-points, I don't know how they divided it between them.  But this

 9     whole area, Prijedor and Sanski Most, were covered by these two brigades

10     I mentioned, the 5th Kozara Brigade from Prijedor and the

11     6th Krajina Brigade of Sanski Most.

12        Q.   You told us there were a number of villages in which you were

13     able to travel to.  What was the ethnic composition of those villages?

14        A.   We were able to move south towards Stara Rijeka.  Stara Rijeka is

15     a majority Croat village.  And for a while we were able to go towards

16     Gornja Ravska, which is to the left of the Ljubija, which is also a

17     majority Croat village.  However, in the end of May, I believe, a

18     check-point was set up on the road which forks from Redka [phoen] towards

19     Gornja Ravska, so we were no longer able to go up to Gornja Ravska.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I would like to suggest to my learned

21     friend if he wants to tender this document, maybe we should --

22             MS. KORNER:  It's tendered.  It's an exhibit.

23             MR. RINDI:  It's already an exhibit.  It's already into evidence.

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just a second.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Well, well, if you --

Page 16086

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  If you're willing to tender the -- this exhibit

 2     with the markings as a new exhibit, then on this markings we should put

 3     some numbers or letters.  Otherwise we won't be able to -- to use this

 4     document at all.

 5             MR. RINDI:  Well, Your Honours, the markings that he did are the

 6     check-points.  There's nothing else that he has marked.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  First of all, that's -- that's not correct.  First

 8     of all, one of the markings shows the village of Brisevo.  The other

 9     markings show the -- the road that they could take towards the Sana

10     municipality village.  He just talked about that.  Therefore, and -- he

11     was -- he marked a certain hill also, so ...

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Rindi, I agree with Mr. Zecevic.  It would

13     be more helpful if the -- if a legend of some sort were inserted into

14     the -- into the map by the witness before it's exhibited.

15             MR. RINDI:  Okay.

16        Q.   Mr. Atlija, could you please mark with a -- with a C the

17     check-points that you just marked?  If you could just write a small C

18     next to the check-points that you marked in the -- in the map.

19        A.   Right.  I understand.

20        Q.   And could you mark with an M the villages that you were able to

21     reach without going through check-points?

22        A.   This is a bit unclear, I'm sorry.

23             My apologies.  It's a bit unclear.  But I can't really control

24     the pen to write where I want it to write.

25        Q.   I think -- I think this is fine for our purposes.

Page 16087

 1             Mr. Atlija, I would like to move on to another topic.

 2             Do you know what the distance from Brisevo to Hambarine is,

 3     approximately?

 4        A.   As the crow flies, some six to seven kilometres.  If you take the

 5     road, the distance is perhaps as many as 12 or 13 kilometres.

 6        Q.   Could you see Hambarine from Brisevo?

 7        A.   One could see Hambarine from the Brisevo hills.

 8        Q.   Are the two villages located at the same altitude?

 9        A.   I think that Brisevo is on higher ground than Hambarine.  It is

10     up to 500 metres above sea level, I think.

11        Q.   Do you know what happened on or about the 22nd of May, 1992, in

12     Hambarine?

13        A.   About that date, there was an incident in Hambarine.  I think

14     that there were four Serb soldiers in a car who tried to go from Prijedor

15     via Hambarine to Ljubija.  The Muslims had also erected a control -- a

16     check-point or a bunker, whatever you want to call it, at Hambarine.

17     They stopped them or tried stopping them, and there was an exchange of

18     fire.  I know that there were wounded.  I don't know if there were any

19     dead among them.

20             Following the incident, the Serb authorities --

21             JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Rindi, if I

22     may interrupt briefly.  I'm not sure from the questions you're now asking

23     whether you're through with this map.  Because if are you moving on to

24     something else, it should be exhibited.

25             MR. RINDI:  Yes, Your Honours, and I meant to do that.  And I

Page 16088

 1     would like to ask to tender the map into evidence.  I'm through with this

 2     map.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked version of document

 5     P01526 shall be given Exhibit P01659, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 6             MR. RINDI:

 7        Q.   Do you know what happened after the incident that you just

 8     described in Hambarine?

 9        A.   After the incident, the Serb authorities in Prijedor issued the

10     inhabitants of Hambarine with an ultimatum.  They were supposed to

11     surrender Alisic Aliskovic, who was a policeman before the war, as well

12     as other individuals responsible for the incident.  Otherwise they would

13     be exposed to an attack from the Serb forces.  This is something that was

14     repeatedly broadcast over Radio Prijedor.

15             What the deadline was, as part of the ultimatum, I don't know.

16     Maybe a day or two.  I know that the inhabitants of Hambarine did not

17     agree to the ultimatum and did not surrender the individual.  When the

18     deadline expired, a Serb attack on Hambarine followed.

19        Q.   Did you see -- did you see the Serb attack, this attack from

20     Brisevo?

21        A.   Together with Milan Buzuk, I went to -- I went on a hill on that

22     day, which afforded a relatively good view of the situation at Hambarine.

23     So we were able to see the attack unfolding from Prijedor and the

24     Prijedore field on Hambarine.

25        Q.   Do you know how long the attack lasted, approximately?

Page 16089

 1        A.   I think that it lasted one day.

 2        Q.   Do you know what happened to the non-Serbs living in Hambarine

 3     after the attack?

 4        A.   Quite a few women and children from Hambarine arrived in Brisevo.

 5     They simply fled their homes.  It was from them that we heard what had

 6     happened at Hambarine.  We were able to see for ourselves were houses on

 7     fire, and we could hear fire.  Women and children were in a poor state.

 8     They were panic-stricken and kept repeating the same words:  "They have

 9     torched everything, killed everyone, raped us," and such-like.

10        Q.   Do you know if the non-Serbs who were living in Hambarine after

11     the attack continued to live in Hambarine.

12        A.   Most of those who fled and reached us in Brisevo tried to go to

13     Stari Majdan in the Sanski Most municipality.  However, a couple of days

14     later, two Serb soldiers came, together with a Croat called Stipo from

15     Stara Rijeka.  They tried to persuade these refugees, women, children,

16     and elderly men, to return to Hambarine.  However, only a handful of them

17     agreed and went in the direction of Hambarine.  Later on, we heard that,

18     unfortunately, most of those who had returned to Hambarine were killed.

19        Q.   Do you know who killed -- did you hear who killed those who

20     returned to Hambarine?

21        A.   I don't know their names, unfortunately.  The only thing that we

22     were able to hear from those who were lucky enough to survive and flee in

23     the direction of Stari Majdan and Sanski Most was that they were members

24     of Serbian formations, military and paramilitary.

25        Q.   Mr. Atlija, I would like to ask you another question with regard

Page 16090

 1     to the attack.  Did you hear what happened to the properties of the

 2     inhabitants of Hambarine during the -- during and after the attack?

 3        A.   Based on what the survivors from Hambarine told us, property was

 4     plundered.  In the course of the attack and after the attack, smaller

 5     groups of armed Serb soldiers went there and plundered properties.  And

 6     once a home would be plundered, it would be set on fire.

 7        Q.   Who -- who controlled Hambarine after the attack?

 8        A.   After the attack, it was the Serb forces who controlled it.

 9        Q.   Mr. Atlija, from your village, was it also possible to see

10     Kozarac?

11        A.   One can see Kozarac from Brisevo like it's on the palm of your

12     hand, especially when the weather conditions are good.

13        Q.   Do you know what is the approximately -- approximate distance

14     between these two villages?

15        A.   The distance is greater than to Hambarine.  I think it's between

16     12 and 15 kilometres as the crow flies.

17        Q.   And, again, were Brisevo and Kozarac located at the same

18     altitude?

19        A.   I don't know the altitude at which Kozarac is, but it's at the

20     foot of the Kozara Mount, so I guess that Brisevo is on higher ground.

21        Q.   Do you know what was the ethnic composition of Kozarac in

22     May 1992?

23        A.   Kozarac was a majority Muslim place which had a number of other

24     ethnicities, Serbs, Croats, Ruthinians, Krajinians [as interpreted], and

25     other minorities.  But the majority population was Muslim.

Page 16091

 1        Q.   I would like to focus your attention on the 24th of May, 1992.

 2     The last part of May 1992.

 3             You just told us that you could see Kozarac from Brisevo.  Do you

 4     remember noticing anything unusual on or about that day?

 5        A.   At the time, from the vantage point in Brisevo, we were able to

 6     see houses on fire in Kozarac, individual houses and groups of houses.

 7     But it did not last over only one day.  It lasted several days.  One

 8     could hear shooting.  But the distance was too far for us to be able to

 9     see any soldiers.

10        Q.   Could you see this with your naked eyes?

11        A.   Yes, I saw that with my own eyes.

12        Q.   And you told us that you also heard the sounds of weapons.  Do

13     you know if they were like -- did they sounded like small-calibre weapons

14     or big-calibre weapons?

15        A.   Fire could be heard from all manner of weapons, from automatic

16     weapons, infantry weapons, as well as explosions of shells, though I

17     can't tell you what the calibre was.  Experts might be able to do that.

18        Q.   Did you learn what occurred in Kozarac that day?

19        A.   Later on, from the stories of the survivors, we learned that

20     Kozarac had been attacked by the Serb forces.  Likewise, we were told

21     that the inhabitants of Kozarac tried to put up resistance, but the

22     situation was hopeless.

23        Q.   And from whom did you hear this?

24        A.   From the survivors in Kozarac.

25        Q.   And --

Page 16092

 1        A.   However, the then-Radio Prijedor also reported on the successful

 2     actions of the Serb army in the liberation of Kozarac and so on.

 3        Q.   Do you know, after having spoken to the survivors, what happened

 4     to the local residents during the attack?  And I mean to those who were

 5     not directly participating to the hostilities?

 6        A.   The story was for the most part identical to that from other

 7     places, like Hambarine.  They said that they were attacked by the Serb

 8     force, that most of the men were killed, others were taken to camps.

 9     That women were tortured, raped, that their property had been plundered.

10     However, I was not able to see what exactly was going on from Brisevo.

11        Q.   Do you know what happened after -- you know, after having talked

12     with survivors, what happened to the houses in Kozarac during and after

13     the attack?

14        A.   As I said, they themselves said that their houses were first

15     looted and then set on fire.  As for the houses burning, I was able to

16     see that for myself from Brisevo.  I didn't need anyone to tell me about

17     it.

18        Q.   Do you know what occurred to the inhabitants of Kozarac?  Do you

19     know if they continued to life in the village after the attack?

20        A.   Most of them tried to leave the area.  According to what we

21     learnt later, most of them managed to pull out through -- across the

22     Kozara Mount.  Some of them reached Croatia.  Other civilians managed to

23     reach Stari Majdan.  According to what the survivors said, quite a few of

24     them were killed or captured and taken to various camps so that there

25     were no Muslims left in Kozarac.

Page 16093

 1             Subsequently, I heard that quite a few of them were transported

 2     to Central Bosnia and exchanged for captured Serb soldiers or civilians.

 3     I can't be more specific about it.  At any rate, this took place around

 4     Travnik.

 5        Q.   I'd like to move on to a different topic.

 6             You told us about listening to Radio Prijedor.  During these

 7     attacks that you just described, did you often listen to the radio or

 8     follow the news?

 9        A.   We continued listening every day, as far as we were able to.  We

10     didn't have electricity so we used car batteries, but we had to use them

11     sparingly.

12        Q.   And did the media report about the conflict in the Prijedor

13     municipality?

14        A.   Yes, there were media reports, but always after the same pattern,

15     that the Serb forces had at last managed to liberate a fundamentalist

16     stronghold of Kozarac or Hambarine.  They also reported that a large

17     number of fundamentalists had been killed.  This was the way that they

18     referred to the local residents, local Muslim residents there.  So it was

19     along those lines.  It was more of a propaganda than a news report.

20        Q.   How -- how -- how was the -- how were the non-Serbs portrayed in

21     the media?

22        A.   As I said, the Muslims were fundamentalists and the Croats were

23     and remained to them, I suppose, the Ustashas.  They referred to us as

24     the Ustashas, a genocidal people.  The Muslims were fundamentalists.

25     They would also specifically say that the Muslim forces were the

Page 16094

 1     Green Berets, then we were the Ustasha forces.  It would happen only

 2     rarely in that period of time that one would hear the term "Croat"

 3     broadcast over the radio.  We were either referred to as fundamentalists

 4     or as Ustashas.

 5        Q.   Did they say who bore -- I mean, did the media, did the radio,

 6     talk about who bored the responsibility for these event, which party, you

 7     know, bore the responsibility for -- for the -- for the conflict?

 8        A.   They kept saying, before an attack on a Croat or Muslim village,

 9     that the fundamentalist forces were provoking in direction of Kozarac or

10     at Hambarine, or that fundamentalists helped the Ustashas in sabotage

11     actions in the direction of Bihac.  Shortly afterwards, we would hear

12     reports that the Serb forces were successful in liberating the

13     fundamentalist stronghold of Hambarine, Biscani, Kozarac, Kozarusa, and

14     all the other villages in Prijedor municipality.

15        Q.   Was this a true account of what was happening?

16        A.   To my knowledge, it was not an accurate account of what happened.

17     We didn't have the capabilities of provoking anyone because we didn't

18     know -- we knew that we didn't stand a chance.  And I'm talking about us

19     from Brisevo.  And I believe that the inhabitants of the Muslim villages

20     around Prijedor thought along the same lines, because they didn't stand a

21     chance in a confrontation with the Serb forces.  They didn't have

22     weapons, logistics, the necessary men or skills to confront the forces of

23     what was, by then, the former JNA.

24        Q.   You talked about listening to Radio Prijedor.  Did non-Serbs,

25     meaning Muslims and Croats, have a voice in this radio?  Was their view

Page 16095

 1     represented?

 2        A.   I don't know about that.  I didn't hear once that any of the

 3     members of the -- of the Muslim or Croat ethnicity could give any

 4     comments or say anything about these events.

 5        Q.   Mr. Atlija, I would like to move to another -- to another topic.

 6             I would like to focus your attention on the early hours of the

 7     24th of July, 1992, the early hours of the morning.  Do you remember

 8     where you were that day?

 9        A.   I was in my parents' house, in Brisevo.

10        Q.   And do you remember what occurred that morning?

11        A.   Yes.  Early in the morning, at around 4.30, the artillery attack

12     on Brisevo commenced.

13        Q.   Do you know -- well, first of all, how long did the attack last?

14        A.   The attack lasted on the 24th and 25th of July, 1992, up until

15     the early -- the late evening hours on the 25th of July.

16        Q.   And which forces conducted the attack against Brisevo?

17        A.   From Ljubija and Prijedor, it was the 5th Kozarac Brigade; and

18     from Sanski Most, it was the 6th Krajina Brigade.

19        Q.   Mr. Atlija, I'm not going to ask you to go through all the

20     dramatic events of that day because we already have adjudicated facts

21     which are covering these particular facts and this is already into

22     evidence.

23             I would like to focus your attention on what happened to the

24     houses of the inhabitants in Brisevo during and after the attack.

25        A.   Houses were systematically looted and then set on fire.  During

Page 16096

 1     the two days of the attack, 68 homes were plundered and set on fire.  We

 2     counted them specifically.

 3             After the attack, smaller groups came and looted and burnt the

 4     houses that were still intact.  And these were smaller groups of armed

 5     Serb soldiers who would take down doors, window-frames.  All the fittings

 6     and furnishings that could be taken away were looted.

 7        Q.   What kind of loots -- what kind of goods were looted?

 8        A.   TV sets, video recorders, refrigerators.  So household

 9     appliances.  But as well as pieces of furniture, electrical fittings,

10     even clothing.  It may sound ridiculous, but they especially focussed on

11     underwear and socks.

12        Q.   Mr. Atlija, I would like to move on to another topic.

13             At the beginning of your testimony, we established that you left

14     Bosnia on 17 November 1992, and you told us that you were living in an

15     apartment owned by your father.  What happened to your property when you

16     left?

17        A.   When I left Prijedor - it was the 30th of April, 1992 - I went to

18     Brisevo.  I left the apartment locked.  I was told a couple of days later

19     that Milan Mutic, a Serb from Donja Ljubija, had moved into my

20     participant and that it would be better if I didn't attempt to go back or

21     even close to the apartment because I would be killed if I do so.

22        Q.   And you're referring to your apartment in Prijedor, are you?

23        A.   Yes, that's right.

24        Q.   And when you left, did you keep your property -- did you keep the

25     property of this apartment when you left Bosnia?

Page 16097

 1        A.   Officially, yes.  However, the condition for getting a permit to

 2     leave Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Serb authorities in Prijedor was that we

 3     would to sign a declaration that we were leaving all our movable and

 4     immovable property of our own free will to the local authorities.  And I

 5     signed it voluntarily, quote/unquote.  Because if I didn't sign it, it

 6     meant that I would not get a permit allowing me to get out of that hell.

 7        Q.   And so that include your apartment in Prijedor?  You had to sign

 8     a document on this as well, on that apartment as well?

 9        A.   No.  The document -- document stated all the movable and

10     immovable properties.  So it included everything that an individual had,

11     no matter if it was a house, a car ...

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. RINDI:  Your Honours, this concludes my examination-in-chief.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             Cross-examination?

16             Yes, Mr. Aleksic.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Atlija.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   I am Aleksandar Aleksic, one Mr. Zupljanin's lawyers, and I have

21     just a few questions for you.

22             As you said to my learned friend, you had given a statement to

23     the investigators of this Tribunal from the 18th to the

24     20th October, 2000; correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 16098

 1        Q.   And after that, you testified twice before this Tribunal in the

 2     Stakic and Brdjanin cases?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, for the events in your village, Brisevo, that you just

 5     described, in your statement and in the Brdjanin trial you said that on

 6     that day, or, rather, during those days, you did not see a single

 7     policeman taking part in the attack on your village.

 8        A.   I did not see anyone in police uniform.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, for the attack on Hambarine and on Kozarac, you

10     gave us a lot of information about that today.  Some of it first-hand,

11     some of it heard from others.

12        A.   I always make a distinction between what I saw with my own eyes

13     and what I heard from others.

14        Q.   I agree completely.  Now, from your own place, from Brisevo, you

15     said that Hambarine was rather far away but you were able to see in the

16     distance some people moving during the attack but you were not able to

17     make out which units they were.

18        A.   No, it was too far away.

19        Q.   As far as Kozarac is concerned, you said that Kozarac is even

20     farther away on the other side.  You were not able to see, but you heard

21     explosions.

22        A.   You could see houses burning.  That was visible.

23        Q.   Several times today you used the term "unit" in Croat, and I know

24     what that means.  When you say "unit," you mean a military unit?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 16099

 1        Q.   You also spoke about the distance to other places, Carakovo and

 2     Rizvanovici, and you said it was similar as with Kozarac.  You were not

 3     able to see, or you were able to see very little but you were able to

 4     see -- sorry, to hear explosions.

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   The Prosecutor questioned you about what Prijedor was doing and

 7     what the reports were.  Do you know that the Muslim forces had attacked

 8     Prijedor from several directions on the 30th of May, 1992?

 9        A.   I know from what I heard later that there was a conflict in the

10     end of May 1992.  Now, how many people participated in the attack and who

11     exactly they were, I can't say.  I know that this attack failed, this

12     Muslim attack failed.  Most of them were caught or liquidated.  I don't

13     know exactly what happened to them.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Just one more question.

15             The last point you discussed with the Prosecutor, that you left

16     behind all your movable and immovable property, this document you signed,

17     you did not sign:  I leave apartment such and such, in such and such a

18     street, which is my property.  No specific data was in that document.

19        A.   No.  It was just as I said:  All my movable and immovable

20     property.

21        Q.   It was generally phrased, without any specifics about that

22     property.

23        A.   Yes.  Only in general terms.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Atlija.  I have no further questions.

25        A.   Welcome.

Page 16100

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Aleksic.

 2             Counsel for Stanisic, is there any ...

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  We have no question.  We agreed with the Defence of

 4     Zupljanin that they will lead in cross-examining this -- these witnesses,

 5     the crime-base witnesses, and in order not to use the -- the Court time.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  We will not question -- or cross-examine this

 8     witness.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Rindi, do you have any re-examination?

10             MR. RINDI:  I just have one quick question, Your Honours.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Rindi:

12        Q.   Mr. Atlija, talking about what you told us about signing a

13     document leaving the properties, movable and immovable, to which

14     authority did you have to sign this document?

15        A.   Signed that document and submitted it at the police station in

16     Prijedor.  Along with that document, we had to submit so-called

17     certificates that we had paid our electricity, water, and telephone

18     bills.  And I have to emphasise we did not have any telephones in

19     Brisevo, but we had to pay the bills and such.

20             After filing these documents and signing them in the police

21     station in Brisevo, I got a paper saying that I was allowed to move out

22     from the area of Prijedor.

23        Q.   Do you know -- so those were documents through which you had

24     transferred your property; is this correct?

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Rindi, hasn't this already been covered?  I

Page 16101

 1     mean, the effect of --

 2             MR. RINDI:  Okay, I'll --

 3             JUDGE HALL:  If an argument is going to be made about the effect

 4     of this -- these documents, and it is a matter Mr. Aleksic opened, how

 5     helpful it is, I confess, is lost on me.  But is there any point in

 6     pursuing this, Mr. Rindi?

 7             MR. RINDI:  Okay, I'll conclude my examination-in-chief -- yeah,

 8     my re-direct examination.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, is it right that there were two

10     attacks on the village of Brisevo?  One the 27th of May; and the other

11     one, the 24th and 25th of July?  Two separate attacks?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  There were two separate

13     an attacks.  After the first attack when we got into contact with the

14     Serbian army in Rasavci and Ostra Luka, they told us that the first

15     attack was just a warning to show us what would happen to us if we are

16     not loyal to the Serbian authorities.  They said they would search our

17     houses and if they find any kind of weapon in a house, the owner of the

18     house would be killed and the house torched.  However, that search never

19     occurred.  Instead, there was a second tragedy attack in July 1992.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, there is one matter that I ought to

22     raise, which is this:

23             Your Honour will recall some weeks ago we had a legal argument

24     about the question of exhumations.  We've not had a ruling from the

25     Trial Chamber yet on it, and we don't appear to have got much further.

Page 16102

 1     But I feel I ought to say this:  This witness can actually deal with

 2     exhumations in some detail because he attended a number of them in 1998

 3     and can give evidence of who was there.

 4             Now if there is an real, live dispute from the Defence on the

 5     question of these exhumations, then this witness is able to deal with

 6     them, although that's not the purpose for which he was brought.  And I

 7     mention it now, as he's gone a great deal faster than anybody could have

 8     anticipated.

 9             So, Your Honours, I think it may be worth, perhaps, if

10     Your Honours were to adjourn slightly early, so that I can speak to

11     Mr. Zecevic and find out what the situation is.  Because, as I say, this

12     witness is in a position to deal with exhumations personally.

13             JUDGE HALL:  I suppose there is a practical aspect to your

14     intention, Ms. Korner, but I foresee certain procedural hurdles, and --

15     but, nevertheless, taking it one step at a time, I would accede to your

16     suggestion that we rise now without releasing the witness and -- to allow

17     counsel to consult.  And see where we go from there.

18             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour, that would be very helpful.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Atlija, you're not yet released as a witness.

20     You would have -- you may have gathered, from what has just passed

21     between counsel and the Bench, that there may be other issues on which

22     you could be of assistance to the Chamber, but we're unable to determine

23     that at the moment.

24             So we're going to take the break now and resume at, I suppose,

25     the ordinary resumption time of 10.45.

Page 16103

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, yes, that would be very helpful.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, thank you very much for the extra time

 7     that you gave us.

 8             Can I just mention the purpose of the transcript that Mr. Dobbyn

 9     has now joined the OTP's team for this morning.

10             Your Honours, I've spoken to Mr. Zecevic, and, effectively,

11     because there are many things still needing resolution in the question of

12     exhumations, in particular, as I say, Your Honours' ruling on the legal

13     argument we had some weeks ago, the best thing or the most sensible

14     thing, we both agree, is that we merely note that Mr. Atlija can give

15     relevant evidence on exhumations.  And we would seek leave to re-call him

16     if -- if it becomes necessary.  And, really, I don't think there's much

17     further -- must more we can do today, in the light of still many

18     outstanding issues.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honours, then -- once Your Honours have

21     thanked Mr. Atlija, if I could just raise two other connected

22     administrative matters.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

25             We are wondering, though, and if I sound tentative it is only

Page 16104

 1     because of a natural judicial reluctance to stick our finger into an area

 2     which counsel is still working out among themselves, but for purely

 3     practical reasons - and let me say, parenthetically, that the -- we

 4     haven't forgotten the ruling that we are to deliver; it's a matter that

 5     we have under more or less active conversation - but the oral submissions

 6     that we would have received on the -- I think it was the

 7     18th of September, highlight the -- certain troubling areas in this whole

 8     question of exhumations.  But that exercise also illuminated that the

 9     parties pretty well know where they stand.

10             That having been said, and you, Ms. Korner, in your report, when

11     we resumed, about the results of the consultation that counsel would have

12     had, as to the possibility of the witness being re-called to deal with

13     this, we're wondering whether, before the witness is released, whether

14     the parties could not make use of his presence here, both for reasons of

15     economy and also to minimise inconvenience to the witness, of exploring

16     with him the areas of concern from an evidential point of view so we

17     would have that on the record and so that if the eventual disposition of

18     the Chamber on the motion about the exhumation is such that further

19     evidence has to be led, at least we wouldn't have to go back over what

20     this -- over the assistance that this witness could give.

21             MS. KORNER:  Funnily enough, Your Honour, that had occurred --

22     that was what my suggestion was to Mr. Zecevic, that as he was here, I

23     could simply take him through.  I don't know whether Your Honours have

24     got a copy of his statement, but it is should be -- it's probably

25     uploaded in e-court.  This is the statement he made in 2000 -- in fact,

Page 16105

 1     October 2000, so ten years ago, almost exactly, and he dealt with persons

 2     that he, himself, had personally buried, and then a number of exhumations

 3     that took place during 1998, which run from page 14 of his statement

 4     onwards.

 5             Now, Your Honour, I -- I had thought maybe it would be better

 6     just to run through that with him very quickly.  But, of course, and it's

 7     my fault entirely, because I regret to say that it only occurred too me

 8     whilst I was listening to his evidence this morning and checking his

 9     statement that this was a matter he could deal with.  And I gave

10     Mr. Zecevic no notice of what I was going raise until I raised it.

11             So I don't know whether he's in a position to deal with anything

12     this morning.

13             Additionally, he asked for the underlying material for some of

14     the entries in the database, and that's -- he asked for that quite a long

15     time ago, and it's taken some time to put that together, together with a

16     spreadsheet which is hyper-linked, unfortunately.  That is going to be

17     disclosed to him today.

18             So it really is a question of whether Mr. Zecevic would feel in a

19     position to ask any meaningful questions of this witness while he is

20     here.  And as far as I'm concerned, I would simply deal with it by two or

21     three sentences, namely, that you were present at a number of exhumations

22     in 1998, all of which -- the details of which are contained in your

23     statement.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Zecevic, why can't we proceed in the proposed manner?

Page 16106

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, it is correct what Ms. Korner just

 2     said.  We asked for the underlying material to be disclosed to us.  The

 3     underlying material has not been disclosed up to this point in time.  We

 4     were notified that it would happen probably today.

 5             Now, without the consultation of the -- or our analysis of this

 6     underlying material, there is -- there might -- if we -- if we are able

 7     to analyse the underlying material, we might not be even challenging

 8     the -- the -- the certain victims from -- from the area or from the

 9     incidents which this witness can -- can talk about.  Therefore, on the

10     other hand, without analysing that material and without being put on

11     notice that this is going to be the -- the matter which -- which we will

12     cross-examine the witness about, we are not prepared at this point - and

13     I'm sure my friends from the Zupljanin Defence will agree with me - we

14     are not prepared at this point to cross-examine the witness on these

15     points.

16             Now, that being the situation, it might be just, so to speak, a

17     waste of Court time that we go into this -- this process with Ms. Korner

18     leading evidence about the -- these facts where, in fact, we will have to

19     re-call the witness for cross-examination.  Or it might be the case that

20     we don't challenge that particular exhumations.

21             Therefore, that is -- that is unfortunately our position where we

22     are at this point, and I'm -- I understand that the Trial Chamber is

23     anxious to -- to deal with that the most efficient way, but,

24     unfortunately, I don't see that it -- that this -- that this would make

25     that much sense at -- under these circumstances.

Page 16107

 1             Thank you very much.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Is there any -- I'm phrasing this question to

 3     Ms. Korner, but the -- I'm inviting the Court Officer to -- to indicate

 4     the practicality of the question that I'm asking, and that is, the -- if

 5     the -- Mr. Zecevic is able to analyse this material today, whether it is

 6     a possibility, is juggling the witnesses for the remainder of this week,

 7     and coming back to this with the present witness, say, tomorrow, or the

 8     day after?

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, there is, because the witness who is --

10     the third one is today, the one that Your Honours ordered to come back

11     for cross-examination, in fact it appears there was a misunderstanding by

12     VWS, so he's only arriving tonight.  So we have the witness that

13     Mr. Dobbyn is about to call, and then we have a series of witnesses, but

14     there's no reason why we can't juggle to that extent, if Your Honours

15     would like to deal with it that way.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Atlija, you may have gathered, from what you've

18     heard pass between the Bench and counsel, that instead of you're being

19     released immediately, we're looking at a number of possibilities, among

20     them is your -- delaying your departure from The Hague for a few days to

21     avoid your -- the possibility of your coming back in -- sometime in

22     January.

23             Could you tell us what your personal arrangements and personal

24     convenience is in that regard, if your present departure is delayed by a

25     day or two?

Page 16108

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind.  If it suits the

 2     Court, I don't mind staying on.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Well, what we would do at this stage is

 4     to excuse you while we explore, between the Victims and Witness Unit, on

 5     the one hand, and counsel on the other, as to whether we would take your

 6     testimony later in the week.  So you're not released at this point for

 7     the reasons that we have discussed but you're excused, and you be

 8     informed, certainly in the course of today, as to where we're going in

 9     terms of your possible continued testimony.  Thank you.

10             MS. KORNER:  Would Your Honours just explain that because he's --

11     he may be coming back to give evidence Mr. Rindi can't speak to him until

12     that's been decided.  He probably got that translated.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Atlija, inasmuch as you are still sworn as a witness, counsel

16     from neither side can have any communication with you.  And in such

17     conversations as you have, you are -- should not discuss your testimony.

18     And -- I -- I could say, before the witness is excused, that VWU has

19     confirmed that they have no difficulty with his present stay being

20     extended.  So we see where we go from there.

21             So if the usher would -- the usher may escort you from the

22     courtroom for the time being.  Thank you.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             MR. ZECEVIC:  I would just like, for the record, Mr. Cvijetic

25     joined us in the Defence team.

Page 16109

 1             Also, Your Honours, just a practical matter.  It is my

 2     understanding that the disclosure about the exhumations is roughly 3.000

 3     pages.  If -- if Your Honours expect us to -- to cross-examine -- to be

 4     prepared to cross-examine this witness, then perhaps you could order

 5     the -- the Office of the Prosecutor that they -- that they sort of

 6     specify the portions of the documents which are -- which are in

 7     connection with the testimony of this witness so we can -- so we can

 8     concentrate on that and be prepared to cross exam him in 48 hours or so.

 9     Otherwise, it -- I don't think we will be able to even find the relevant

10     portions of the material by the time the witness is re-called.

11             Thank you very much.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's not an unreasonable request, and

13     we'll do that.  The reason it's been delayed is because we've have to

14     check that the hyperlinking was actually to the right documents.  And we

15     certainly intend to disclose today, and that will be -- will indicate

16     which of the documents relate to this witness.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So could we expect a report from counsel

18     tomorrow morning as to where we are with this witness?

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, if we do -- if we do receive

20     the disclosure today, we will be able to give our opinion on it tomorrow.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I -- as I said, can I just use

23     this opportunity - because, in fact, we've gone more speedily, if there's

24     such a word, than we anticipated, although the next witness is ready - to

25     raise two matters concerned with outstanding decisions.

Page 16110

 1             Your Honours, we did apply for a summonses for two of our

 2     witnesses to -- who are reluctant to testify.  I think one was ex parte

 3     and one was open.  It's gotten a bit confused at the moment, and I think

 4     it's really ex parte only, because the Defence have no right of a reply.

 5     And we always tell the Defence if we're issuing summonses.  But we do

 6     need -- I know there's been correspondence about this.  We do need to

 7     have a decision particularly on ST-250 who's due to testify Friday week.

 8             Can I say that the suggestions that were made, namely, videolink

 9     and/or protective measures, are not going to work.  The witnesses are not

10     interested.  They just don't want to come, full stop, or testify.  Both

11     have been canvassed with them.  So we would ask, in order to get ST-250

12     by -- here for Friday week, could we have the witness summons, please, as

13     soon as possible.  And the same with ST-252.

14             And, Your Honours, lastly --

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner, before we leave this matter, could

16     you just confirm that the issue of a possible video-conference combined

17     with protective measures had been raised with both of the witnesses,

18     because it slipped out of the transcript, I think.

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I understand it has.  I understand

20     contact was made with them and their response was the same.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And there's also an issue about the whereabouts

23     of one of -- one of the witnesses.  Do you have the -- the place of

24     residence of one of them?

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'll -- I did see the exchange of

Page 16111

 1     e-mails, and I'll check.  I was told verbally, but I'll double-check

 2     that, that we do have places of residence for both.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'll check that and revert to you

 5     perhaps after the next break.

 6             And, Your Honours, finally, on administrative matters, we are -

 7     and I know this is my, as it were, theme song - but we are a little

 8     concerned about some of the outstanding matters, some of which date back

 9     quite a long time.  Can I just raise a couple of them.

10             At the pre-trial conference on the 4th of September of last year,

11     the Trial Chamber issued an oral decision on our motion of the

12     29th of February, 2008, saying that all of the witnesses we had applied

13     to submit pursuant to Rule 92 bis in that motion had been accepted

14     because they fulfilled the requirements, but we still haven't had a

15     written decision.  And we need that because of the documents that are

16     associated with them.

17             We still await matters relating to the Rule 66 (C) motion, which

18     was filed, I believe, on the 8th -- yes, the 8th of May, 2009.  We've had

19     some decisions on it but not complete.  And the same with the

20     26th of May, 2009.

21             And, finally, Your Honours, may I just raise this:  We did file,

22     in February, I believe it was this year, a -- no, March, a motion

23     relating to documents which had been MFI'd and whether they could be

24     submitted as part of a small bar table motion.  We would be very grateful

25     if we could have a decision on that because we're now in the process of

Page 16112

 1     putting together the bar table motion for documents which we have not

 2     been able to put in through witnesses.  And it would be very helpful, I

 3     think to all sides, although it really affects us rather than the

 4     Defence, to see how Your Honours rule on that MFI one.

 5             Your Honours, there are a number of outstanding -- other

 6     outstanding ones relating to witnesses which I think I've mentioned

 7     before, but, I think, Your Honour, we really are hopeful, or hoping, that

 8     we could get decisions on some of the ones, the earlier ones from last

 9     year.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.

12             Is the OTP ready for its next witness listed?

13             MR. DOBBYN:  Yes, Your Honours.  The OTP is ready to call

14     Witness ST-024, and this witness has protective measures in the form of

15     pseudonym and closed session testimony.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  This witness, having previously been granted

17     protective measures as Mr. Dobbyn says, we will -- of pseudonym and

18     testimony in closed session, we would now revert to closed session.

19                           [Closed session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 16113











11 Pages 16113-16158 redacted. Closed session.















Page 16159

 1   (redacted)

 2                           Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day

 4                           of October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.