1 Tuesday, 19 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
6 everybody in and around the courtroom.
7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and
8 Stojan Zupljanin.
9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Good morning to everyone.
11 May we have the appearances, please.
12 MR. DOBBYN: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Office of the
13 Prosecutor, Gerard Dobbyn, with Senior Trial Attorney Joanna Korner,
14 Crispian Smith, and we have, today, an intern, Selma Sakic, assisting us.
15 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. For
16 Mico Stanisic's team, Slobodan Cvijetic and Tatjana Savic. And I forgot
17 to mention Ms. Jessica Lacey.
18 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,
19 Igor Pantelic, and Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.
20 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
21 Before we resume with the witness who is still on the stand,
22 there are a number of minor housekeeping matters of which to dispose.
23 Ms. Korner, we were advised that the witness who was excused
24 yesterday, that upon examination it was discovered that he would not have
25 been of assistance in terms of the present matter with which this trial
1 is concerned, and therefore there is the matter of formally releasing him
2 for the record.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's right. I'm grateful that
4 Your Honours were given the message.
5 After discussion with Mr. Zecevic and having looked at the
6 evidence of exhumations which he gave, as Your Honours put it, it really
7 wouldn't have assisted on this particular indictment. It relates to the
8 wider exhumations but not specifically to this indictment and, therefore,
9 with the agreement of Mr. Zecevic, we decided there was no point in
10 keeping the witness here unnecessarily. And I suppose it goes to show
11 that you shouldn't have bright ideas and act on them straight away when
12 in court. A little reflection always helps.
13 So -- but, Your Honour, I'm very grateful. And he was released,
14 I understand, kindly by Your Honours, and he has left the country.
15 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated] ... we note for the record
16 that he is released, formally released, as a witness.
17 The second matter is the -- there's a -- the Trial Chamber is
18 seized of the Prosecution motion seeking the admission of evidence of
19 ST-221, pursuant to Rule 92 ter, filed on the 15th of October, noting
20 that 221 is scheduled to give testimony in early November. The
21 Trial Chamber kindly requests the Defence to file any responses by
22 Friday, the 22nd of October.
23 The third matter is that -- and not having the details in front
24 of me, I rely on the Prosecution to direct us to the exhibit number.
25 There's a matter which was marked for identification pending translation,
1 was it?
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, yes, that's right. It was the witness
3 who is returning this morning. And I think the Registry organised a
4 translation. It was marked P1577, MFI, and we'd ask for the MFI to be
6 JUDGE HALL: Order as prayed.
7 And if there is nothing else, we revert to closed session.
8 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was told that there
9 would be no re-direct examination of this witness. The witness should be
10 released as well, since I have no more cross-examination. My learned
11 friend, Mr. Zecevic, only said that he would give submissions for the
12 record, but that did not mean that he would have questions for the
13 witness. So since there is no re-direct, I believe the witness should be
14 released as well.
15 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honours, we
16 were told that this morning. Sorry, it's Mr. Dobbyn's witness, so really
17 I suppose he ought to deal. But she's been brought -- the witness has
18 been brought back to court. It seemed to us that perhaps it was just
19 polite to tell her that there was no -- yep.
20 JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]
21 [Closed session]
11 Page 16163 redacted. Closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: And we are back in open session, Your Honours.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours will know that we have applied for a
4 number of witnesses from Prijedor to be -- to give evidence or evidence
5 to be admitted under the 92 bis Rule. The Defence have objected to each
6 and every one of the Prijedor witnesses giving evidence under that Rule.
7 But, Your Honour, we've just heard two witnesses from Prijedor where
8 there's been virtually no cross-examination and certainly no
9 cross-examination about the substance of what they've had to say in
10 relation to the adjudicated facts.
11 And so at this stage, in the interests of this trial proceeding
12 with expedition, I wonder whether the Defence might reconsider whether
13 they wish these witnesses to come to court to relive these events all
14 over again for virtually no challenge. If they don't want to do that,
15 Your Honour, I'm not asking for an -- obviously, an immediate decision.
16 Then certainly I'd ask Your Honours to take into account the fact that
17 there's been virtually no cross-examination, as I say, on any matter of
18 substance. And, indeed, the cross-examination estimates have all been
19 much more than actually took place.
20 So I merely mention that at this stage. As I say, this is in the
21 interests of this trial proceeding with proper expedition.
22 JUDGE HARHOFF: Ms. Korner, how many witnesses are still left
23 from Prijedor under 92 bis in relation to the adjudicated facts?
24 MS. KORNER: I believe it's five. We put in an application to
25 call five under the 92 bis procedure.
1 JUDGE HARHOFF: And we've heard two so far.
2 MS. KORNER: These have come as, effectively, viva voce, because
3 Your Honours decided not to.
4 But can I say this straight away. The ones we've applied for do
5 not directly either implicate either of the two -- well, certainly not
6 Mr. Stanisic. They do not implicate Mr. Zupljanin, nor any direct
7 subordinates. Otherwise, we wouldn't apply. Where they implicate by
8 their statements or previous testimony the police in the sense of direct
9 subordinates, then, of course, we call them. But none of these do. And
10 so, Your Honours, as I say, and in the end, of course, it's Your Honours'
11 decision, even if the Defence object.
12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, yes.
13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Ms. Korner has just
14 mentioned an issue that the Defence has been contemplating as we've been
15 having these witnesses appearing on these facts. The problem that the
16 Defence encounters on the issue of the adjudicated facts is that, for
17 instance, a witness was called to testify to five, six, or seven
18 adjudicated facts, of which four or five are something that the Defence
19 could stipulate to, but one or two they cannot because the adjudicated
20 facts and the evidence as reflected in the transcripts do not tally, are
21 not consistent.
22 You will have noticed that we have focussed on one or two of the
23 seven or eight adjudicated facts that the witness testified to. The
24 Defence has been analysing all these facts, and we will be filing a
25 proposal for the Prosecution to stipulate -- to make a stipulation on
1 some of these issues to expedite matters. For instance, the Prosecution
2 has recently filed a motion for another adjudicated fact, and the witness
3 is due to testify on Friday, so we will agree to make a stipulation on
4 this fact, so there will be no need for the witness to come.
5 Specifically, there was a motion for a 92 bis testimony in
6 relation to two adjudicated facts. However, in the transcript itself, or
7 in the witness's statement, this particular fact is not mentioned at all.
8 So we have to object to that. But we are reviewing all these adjudicated
9 facts, and next week we will be filing a formal motion for Their Honours
10 and the Prosecution where we will clearly say which are the non-contested
11 facts in respect of which the Defence can make a stipulation and which
12 facts need to be proven.
13 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... well,
14 Your Honour, I'm pleased to hear that, but it would have been nice to
15 have been told this a bit earlier because the witness who is coming on
16 Friday is almost certainly on their way today. And really I'm not sure
17 that next week -- I'd be grateful -- oh, you mean Friday week? Not this
18 Friday. Friday ... right. Well, that's more helpful.
19 Your Honours, I think it would be really more helpful if perhaps
20 the Defence could concentrate on this and let us know this week so that
21 we don't start bringing up witnesses unnecessarily.
22 JUDGE HALL: Anyway, counsel would have heard each other, and no
23 doubt we would be further informed as to where we stand.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, if I understand you well, out of
1 some five witnesses there are two that you will have to cross-examine; is
2 that right?
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of the witnesses
4 relating to adjudicated facts, we asked for some of their statements not
5 to be admitted at all because they are not consistent with the facts.
6 For the rest, we wanted to review their situation.
7 But even these witness who will be coming, not just the five
8 witnesses, but all the other witnesses who have to do with adjudicated
9 facts, we are currently reviewing each and every adjudicated fact to see
10 if we could make a stipulation and avoid the witnesses from being called.
11 I only said that where there are witnesses who testify to five or
12 six adjudicated facts, we may find perhaps that there is one or two --
13 there are one or two facts that we could make a stipulation on, but this
14 requires some work.
15 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... I just recall that --
16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's why we can't do it this
18 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... Friday week's
19 witness is the one where we are asking for a summons. So if that witness
20 isn't required, then we'd really like to know very quickly, and I think
21 Your Honours would as well.
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, who exactly are you
23 referring to? because I haven't looked at the schedule just now.
24 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... ST-220.
25 JUDGE HALL: Anyway, counsel would continue to talk, and we would
1 rise now to -- so that the provisions could be made for the next witness.
2 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, I suppose I
3 ought to ask this humbly.
4 I well exceeded, despite having said, as I said, it's foolish to
5 say things off the top of one's head in court, but I couldn't exceed the
6 time allowance -- I did exceed the time allowance last time, and I still
7 have two videos plus three documents to ask the witness about. I wonder
8 if I might ask, therefore, for extra time for examination-in-chief?
9 JUDGE HALL: How much?
10 MS. KORNER: An hour.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE HALL: Very well, Ms. Korner.
13 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Thank you very much.
14 --- Break taken at 9.31 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 9.50 a.m.
16 JUDGE HALL: Oh, yes, we need to move into closed witness to
17 escort the witness in, don't we?
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, are we -- I'm not sure whether -- I
22 know the shutters are down. I'm not sure we're in open or closed, but --
23 oh, we're in open. It doesn't matter.
24 JUDGE HALL: We're in open session, yes.
25 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honours, on the last occasion when this
1 witness was here, I listed the records of the meetings at which he was
2 present and asked whether the Defence could agree whether he was present
3 at all those meetings, and I don't believe - and I'm at as much fault as
4 anyone else, I forgot to recheck it - that we heard from the Defence
5 whether they were prepared to stipulate to those meetings.
6 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It says in the transcripts that he
7 was at these meetings. However, a problem of a different nature
8 occurred. Ms. Korner enumerated a number of transcripts of the
9 Crisis Staff meetings and suggested that we stipulate to these documents.
10 However, by reviewing these transcripts, we found that a part of them are
11 already in evidence as Defence exhibits.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And perhaps it would be a good
14 idea to get from the Prosecution a revised list of transcripts of
15 Crisis Staff meetings, and I think there will be no problem in agreeing
16 to the admission of these documents.
17 The only question is that we should admit those that haven't been
18 admitted already.
19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I'm content. We'll -- perhaps
20 the Defence could be kind enough, if they could send Mr. Smith a list of
21 the ones they say have been admitted as Defence exhibits, and then we'll
22 see what's left over.
23 MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I think we have sent a
24 communication to that effect.
25 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] All right.
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, good morning to you, sir. I trust that
2 can you hear me.
3 Welcome back to the Tribunal. Although your testimony today is a
4 continuation from when you were last here, before Ms. Korner continues,
5 could you make the solemn declaration again, please.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: ST-197 [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]
11 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. You may be seated.
12 Yes, Ms. Korner.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honours. Your Honours, we need to
14 go into private session for the next couple of questions, or few
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 16171-16186 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
8 (redacted) - are we in open session? So ... well, right.
9 Could we go into private session, and could I just ask that the -- the
10 last bit be redacted before this goes out - which is -- was on our 65 ter
11 list, 748, could that be made an exhibit, admitted and marked.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 16189-16209 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 [The witness stands down]
3 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.29 p.m.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, before the witness comes in, we've
6 noticed that he has with him not just handwritten notes but two, what
7 appear to be, bound bundles of documents.
8 Now, obviously, as we haven't spoken to him, we have no idea what
9 he's brought with him or what it is. Subject to Your Honours' leave, I
10 propose to ask him - I've just got this one short bit of video to play -
11 whether he has any objection to handing over those documents to us to see
12 what they are.
13 JUDGE HALL: When you say with him, you mean he brought them with
14 him to The Hague, or he has them in the courtroom?
15 MS. KORNER: He's got them in the courtroom, Your Honour.
16 They're sitting -- he's got handwritten notes with him, which is what he
17 said he had. And then Your Honours will recall that he said that he been
18 doing some research --
19 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... I remember.
20 MS. KORNER: -- and clearly it's not just handwritten notes he's
21 got. He's got two binders with him. Now, I have no idea what he's got
22 in there, but --
23 JUDGE HALL: I'd like to ask how that happened, but I wouldn't.
24 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honours, I don't think anybody's had any
25 contact with him from either side, obviously, while he was giving
1 evidence, so whatever he's decided to do, he's done off his own bat. But
2 clearly we would be interested in seeing what documents he's acquired
3 over the break.
4 I don't -- I've asked the Defence whether they have any interest.
5 I don't know whether they do.
6 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, we're not interested.
7 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... so if Your Honours
8 will allow me, when I finish my examination-in-chief, I'm going to ask
9 him if, once he's concluded his evidence today, with cross-examination
10 starting, he would be prepared to hand over these documents to us to look
12 JUDGE HALL: I suppose so.
13 Yes, Mr. Zecevic.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Just for the record, if it's -- if our learned
15 colleague Ms. Korner finds anything which is relevant for the case, of
16 course, we are interested to receive that.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE HALL: I suppose, strictly speaking, as a matter of
19 procedure, this having been brought to the attention of the Bench while
20 the witness is on the stand, this happened in the course of his
21 testimony, it is an inquiry which the Bench should pursue. But having
22 said that, I confess that I'm not sure as to how to begin, so I am going
23 to take Ms. Korner up on her offer to open it and see where we go from
25 Thank you.
1 MR. ZECEVIC: I understand, Your Honours.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm happy to say that the computer has
5 been unfrozen. So if we could just play a few bits from this video,
6 please, starting with 17 minutes, 10 seconds.
7 And the transcript, it's the first page in English.
8 JUDGE HALL: Ms. Korner, I'm reminded that we are in open
9 session. So should we -- are we to remain in open session?
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I don't see any reason at the -- for
11 the first -- for the first section, there's no reason why we shouldn't
12 stay in open session.
13 And we need to go to Sanction.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In a few minutes, we expect
16 General Talic to arrive, whom I will report to, and then we will have a
17 tour of inspection of the unit. And after a few words, we will be ready
18 to undertake the assignment."
19 MS. KORNER: Can we pause for a moment.
20 Q. Sir, can you tell us who that was?
21 A. The person speaking is Stojan Zupljanin, chief of the
22 Security Services Centre, Banja Luka.
23 Q. And are you able to tell us, sir, what occasion this -- this
24 footage is of -- shows?
25 A. This was filmed on the day when the police brigade, the one we
1 referred to a moment ago as being set up, was in fact set up and lined up
2 on the Borac stadium in Banja Luka.
3 I'm sorry, not the Borac stadium. It was the Borik sports
4 stadium. My apologies.
5 MS. KORNER: And then if we can carry on then playing, then,
6 until we see General Talic arriving.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MS. KORNER: Can we pause for a moment, please. And we need to
9 go into private session, Your Honours.
10 [Private session]
11 Pages 16214-16224 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: And we are back in open session, Your Honours.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, look at the map, please. These are the Red Berets forces
2 and HVO forces under the command of Muhamed Sadikovic, who covers the
3 other portion of Kotor Varos municipality.
4 We have here the disposition of Muslim and Croat forces; namely,
5 Green Berets and HVO. Is this consistent with what you knew back in 1992
6 of the disposition of their forces?
7 A. Let me state for the umpteenth time that this was not my zone.
8 However, according to the intelligence I had and which was subsequently
9 verified, Muhamed Sadikovic was not the commander of the light brigade.
10 The light brigade, as it's formulated in the B/C/S, Laka, is a Slovenian
11 name. Maybe they renamed it.
12 Muhamed Sadikovic was the commander of the TO staff in
13 Kotor Varos. His deputy -- or, rather, the commander of the municipal
14 staff of the TO in Kotor Varos. He had, under him, five detachments;
15 namely, 5th Detachment, 35th Detachment, 55th Detachment,
16 84th Detachment, and 105th Detachment.
17 According to all the establishment regulations, detachments
18 normally have up to 500 men. I don't know if Muhamed Sadikovic had as
19 many men. At any rate, they constituted a respectable force. These
20 detachments covered various areas. And I don't know if the disposition
21 as depicted in the map here is correct. I have a diagram which I am
22 ready to place at anyone's disposal, and this is something that
23 Mr. Sadikovic confirmed in his book, which he co-authored with
24 Muharem Krzic and others. The title of the book is, "Testifying to the
25 Crime and Love of Bosnia."
1 At page 439 of the book, there is a confirmation of what I've
2 just said, regardless of whether I'm happy with it or unhappy with it.
3 Now, coming out with a piece of information to the effect that
4 Muharem Sadikovic was indeed the commander of the light brigade would be
10 Now, whether this map is consistent with what I know of it is
11 something that I can't say at this moment. I can tell you that it refers
12 to the detachments which were under the command of Muhamed Sadikovic.
13 Q. You see these, let's call them five units, Muslim units, referred
14 to as the Green Berets; do you see them? There are five units on this
15 map, in fact, are there not?
16 A. Well, yes. But the map is upside down. Normally we have north
17 facing where it really is. The way we see it now, it's upended, in fact.
18 This piece of information is questionable, because the Croats had
19 a brigade of their own as well. The 1st Kotor Varos Battalion, which was
20 set up in the village of Dobratici, whose commander was Jozo Pokrajcic.
21 So it's questionable.
22 If anyone's interested and if this is a subject of investigation,
23 well, then he should look into the relation between Jozo Pokrajcic and
24 the Croatian policy in this area on the one hand, and Muhamed Sadikovic
25 and the Muslim policy with regard to this area on the other. Not long
1 after, there ensued a conflict between the two parties in the Lasva
2 valley and the divisions along all the various chains of command.
3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this document be
4 marked for identification, please.
5 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Krgovic, although the previous document I've
6 said could be marked for identification, I'm beginning to have
7 reservations about that, and similarly of your present -- your present
8 application for this reason: The witness has said that, first of all,
9 the map by itself can't establish the fact, or otherwise, of the
10 disposition of these forces.
11 Secondly, the witness has said that he is unable to be of much
12 assistance to us at this point in terms of explaining the map because it
13 doesn't deal with his area of responsibility.
14 So the usefulness of having them marked for identification, I'm
15 wondering about that, unless somehow or other, the -- in -- in the
16 progress of -- of your case, someone is going to establish the accuracy
17 of the information which these maps purportedly contain. And I'm not
18 losing sight of Ms. Korner's original query as to the time to which the
19 map relates, assuming the accuracy. So I'm saying all that to ask
20 whether, notwithstanding what we said earlier about marking it for
21 identification, isn't that, in fact, premature at this stage?
22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's precisely why I asked for an
23 MFI, Your Honour, unlike with the previous document, because I will have
24 to go through this with another witness. That's why I didn't asked for
25 admission, just MFI, because the witness did not confirm.
1 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... whether it's
2 even premature to mark if for identification.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I echo you. I was about to get to
4 my feet anyhow in order to make the point. On this map, the witness says
5 not only he doesn't recall this information, he doesn't know anything
6 about it. So I really don't see that we have any basis.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Agree, Your Honour. I withdraw my
8 request. I'll go through this with another witness.
9 Let me just show another map which could be useful to the
10 witness, and that will be the end of maps. 2D07-174 [sic].
11 Q. Sir, this is a map showing all these units, the Muslim, Croat,
12 and mixed units. And I agree when you say it was not in your area of
13 responsibility, but since it was the area of responsibility of the
14 brigade neighbouring yours, you should know, in view of the position you
15 occupied - and I'm not going to mention it in public session - you should
16 have been aware of the deployment -- the area of deployment of enemy
17 forces and the neighbouring forces.
18 A. I can only repeat what I said a moment ago. There were units,
19 more or less, in all settlements. Now, what was their strength, I can't
20 tell you, because whatever I said could be wrong.
21 We see here symbols for various battalions. If it says that a
22 200-strong HVO unit is in Bilice, 200 is a company; whereas this says it
23 is an HVO battalion.
24 I did have intelligence about their deployment, but I just gave
25 you the verified information we had about deployment of detachments.
1 Now, whether they changed location, they were in one village one day and
2 another village the next day, leaving just a small unit behind, and their
3 movements ...
4 Q. Could you perhaps draw on this map what your establishment was?
5 Just make these corrections so we have a real picture.
6 A. Well, I can't do that because I only know the strength of
7 detachments in numerical symbols and who was the commander and who was
8 deputy. Now, where they were at what moment, I don't know. It would be
9 a -- a very thankless task to try this. Maybe they were in one place in
10 the morning, in another place in the evening, carrying out an action.
11 Whatever I marked here would be under a question mark.
12 Q. Can you tell us then, briefly, instead of going through these
13 maps, what their deployment was, according to your intelligence and your
14 information? What was the strength of these forces, these detachments,
15 the structure of these units?
16 A. I repeat for the umpteenth time, at the level of Kotor Varos
17 municipality, a Territorial Defence Staff was established, some sort of
18 parallel TO staff, pursuant to a decision of Alija Izetbegovic as
19 president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, about the restructuring of the
20 forces, and Commander Muhamed Sadikovic, who used to be a member of the
21 police station in Kotor Varos, was named. The 5th Detachment was
22 commanded by Nermin Avdic, nicknamed Nera. His deputy was Stipe Maric,
23 nicknamed Sprzo. 35th Detachment, commander Mehmed Silnovic.
24 Deputy commander, Safet [as interpreted] Zulkic.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've noticed that the witness is
1 reading from something. Can we find out what he's reading from?
2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Excuse me, you heard Ms. Korner. You seem to be reading from
4 something. Are these your notes that you prepared for this evidence that
5 you spoke about?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May I continue?
8 JUDGE HALL: Well, these are notes of -- when -- when were these
9 notes prepared?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I made these notes as my own
11 preparation for giving evidence based on the information that I had and
12 when I finally got that book to read, and I gave these notes to
13 Mr. Grady, or Bradley, in Sarajevo at the interview. I think it was the
14 11th of March. All these notes were made available to the investigator
15 of the OTP.
16 JUDGE HALL: Yes. But you made the notes in March, but what --
17 on what did you base the notes?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Part on my memory, part on the
19 basis of talking to people who could be useful, and partly based on the
20 book called: "Loving Bosnia," by Sadikovic.
21 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the full name of
24 the book.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Witness, there are certain rules which the
2 Tribunal must apply to -- in order to be satisfied as to the accuracy of
3 the information which is a witness is given -- giving, and your
4 explanation of the notes that you -- to which you are referring indicates
5 that they're not the type of material from which a witness may refresh
6 his memory in -- in the box.
7 So that such questions as counsel puts to you, if you are unable
8 to give an answer based on your own recollection, and even if you would
9 have made notes before you came into the -- before you came into the
10 witness box to sort of go through events in your mind - because, after
11 all, we're dealing with events of 18 years ago - and we aren't concerned
12 with how good your memory is, but how accurate your testimony is. But
13 the -- so that the -- it isn't permissible for you to simply read out
14 these notes, which, from your own explanation, comes from a variety of
16 As I said, if you're able to answer counsel's question, but all
17 means, you would. If you're unable to, then you would so indicate.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept that, Your Honour. If I
19 had been told before, I wouldn't have read this. But these -- these
20 verified data are in the book.
21 JUDGE HALL: Of course, one of the difficulties is that it's a
22 book written by someone else, which creates its own set of problems, as
23 far as the Tribunal is concerned, because the Tribunal, being a court, is
24 constrained as to the methods by which it receives evidence.
25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Zecevic just told me that we
1 should perhaps release the witness a bit earlier because there are a few
2 procedural issues concerning the next witness.
3 Q. Now, about these notes, did you read a part of your answer when
4 you were responding to the Prosecutor?
5 A. No. I made these notes as a reminder for my interview with
6 Mr. Grady.
7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe we can
8 release the witness now so Mr. Zecevic can make his submission regarding
9 the next witness.
10 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
11 We are -- Mr. Witness, we are near the point at which we must
12 adjourn for the day in order to make the courtroom available for another
13 Court. We aren't going to rise immediately. Your testimony will be
14 continued in the morning at 9.00 in this courtroom. But the usher would
15 now escort you from the courtroom, and we will continue tomorrow.
16 And, of course, I would remind you of what I remind you of at the
17 first break when you were last here that you can't have any communication
18 with counsel from either side.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
20 appreciate it if you warn me in a timely manner about these things so
21 that I don't get entangled into something that is of no assistance to
22 you. Thank you.
23 JUDGE HALL: You're most welcome, sir.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, while the witness is leaving, can I
1 just ask that the document -- the video which was P1656 could be made
2 under seal. I forgot to ask.
3 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
4 MR. PANTELIC: And, Your Honours, before Mr. Zecevic will address
5 the Court, just for the record, we actually uploaded the translation
6 actually -- translation which is updated for the previous MFI exhibit and
7 translation is 2D03-1265, and it relates to the Exhibit 2D113, MFI'd. It
8 was admitted during the testimony of Mr. Murselovic. Page -- transcript
9 page 15755, lines 7 and 8. It was 11 of October, 2010. There was a
10 small discrepancy between English and B/C/S. Now everything is settled,
11 so I would like to ask that MFI is lifted.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE HALL: Yes.
14 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, with your leave, if I may address the
15 Court on an issue concerning the next witness.
16 Your Honours, the next witness, ST-220, the motion to -- to add
17 that witness by the Office of the Prosecutor was filed on the
18 28th of May this year, 2010. The decision by the
19 Honourable Trial Chamber was -- is dated 22nd of July, 2010, where the
20 motion by the Office of the Prosecutor was accepted and the witness was
21 added to 65 ter lest.
22 However, today at 11.00, we received a disk containing the
23 audio -- audio file about the testimony of this witness, of the coming
24 witness, made in the State Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina on
25 10th of September, 2009, in case Lalovic et al., Prosecutor versus
1 Lalovic et al.
2 I spoke to my friends -- to my friend Mr. Hannis from the
3 Office of the Prosecutor, and he explained to me that he was made only
4 aware of the fact that the witness testified in this case in a state
5 court only on Friday, and they immediately requested the document and
6 received it earlier yesterday -- late -- late night yesterday or earlier
7 this morning, and that is why we received it only now.
8 Now, that create ascertain problem, Your Honours. We have -- we
9 requested the interview. The witness agreed to -- to be interviewed by
10 the Defence. We are having an interview in precisely 20 minutes from
12 Now, the problem is, during that interview we cannot comment on
13 the -- on the contents of his testimony in this other case in the
14 State Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina because we didn't have simply the
15 opportunity to hear the audio file. Therefore, we will do our best to --
16 we don't know how big the audio file is and how long his testimony was in
17 the State Court and how relevant it is for the subject matter in this
18 case, but we'll do our best to review that documentation overnight. But
19 then it means that we will not be able to start this witness tomorrow
20 because it might turn out that we need to have an additional interview
21 with this witness tomorrow concerning the -- the material that was
22 disclosed to us today.
23 Therefore -- therefore, my suggestion as the only practical
24 solution is that after this witness finishes, we are adjourned and then
25 we start with the next witness, ST-220, on Thursday.
1 It might happen anyhow, but -- but I just wanted to raise this
2 issue with the Trial Chamber and put the Trial Chamber on notice about
3 the --
4 JUDGE HALL: Isn't an alternative that the examination-in-chief
5 precedes, and, if necessary, the cross-examination can be deferred to the
6 day following?
7 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, of course, Your Honours.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think that's -- [Overlapping
9 speakers] ...
10 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... yeah, but -- but the --
11 the problem is -- the problem -- I'm sorry. The problem with that is --
12 is we would then -- then the witness will be sworn and we will not be
13 able to talk -- to have an additional interview with him.
14 JUDGE HALL: Yes, I --
15 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry, I forgot -- I knew why I was suggesting
16 that -- that the witness would be -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 MR. ZECEVIC: No, no, but it's my fault entirely, Your Honours.
19 I'm sorry.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it seems to me that at the rate we're
21 going anyhow, and having discussed the cross-examination of the present
22 witness with both teams, he is likely to take all of tomorrow anyhow.
23 Mr. Krgovic said he had two sessions and Mr. Cvijetic has one session
24 plus re-examination. So I don't think it may be a problem. But it seems
25 to me that it, perhaps, would be more sensible that one of the Defence
1 teams, whoever is going to be cross-examining, can see him tomorrow
2 morning while we continue with the other witness, which will give them a
3 chance to listen to the interview before they see him.
4 If that's -- so that can he be seen tomorrow morning, rather than
5 this afternoon, by the Defence teams. Or, if necessary, can be seen
6 further tomorrow morning.
7 JUDGE HALL: So it will work itself out.
8 MS. KORNER: Yeah. But, as I say, I think it's likely this
9 witness is going take all of tomorrow.
10 JUDGE HALL: So we take the adjournment to tomorrow at 9.00.
11 MS. KORNER: I understand there was a problem - is that right? -
12 that the witness declined to hand over the documents after all of this.
13 All right. Okay. Thank you. Because if it needs an order from
14 Your Honours ...
15 Your Honours, did Your Honours make an order that he should hand
16 over the documents?
17 JUDGE HALL: No. Because the --
18 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... he agreed.
19 JUDGE HALL: [Overlapping speakers] ... after his prefatory
20 comment, I thought I understood him to say that he would do it.
21 MS. KORNER: I did too, but ...
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MS. KORNER: All right. Yes. Would Your Honour just rather and
25 wait -- can we just make order? Would Your Honours make the order that
1 he should hand us over the documents, and there'll be no problem.
2 JUDGE HALL: Order as prayed.
3 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day
6 of October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.