101126ED

Page 17858

1 people who were detained at the camp?

2 A. I saw people of all ages - from babies that were two to three

3 months old, children of all ages, pre-school children, school children,

4 young girls, grown women, men, and also elderly people who were as old

5 as 80.

6 Q. What was the ethnicity of the majority of detainees -- of the

7 detainees?

8 A. Most detainees were Muslims from Kozarac.

9 Q. Sir, in the period going approximately from the 26th of May until

10 the first week of August 1992, were the detainees allowed to permanently

11 leave the camp?

12 A. The prisoners were not allowed to leave the camp. We were

13 imprisoned there and the guards did not let us leave the camp. There

14 were some exceptions at the time, though, but these were individual

15 cases.

16 Q. From August until October, were the detainees allowed to

17 permanently leave the camp?

18 A. After the arrival of the camp inmates from Keraterm and Omarska,

19 the Serb authorities wanted to reduce the number of prisoners and conceal

20 their state so that the representatives of western countries and the

21 International Red Cross don't see the state they were in. And that's why

22 individuals were allowed to leave the camp under certain conditions.

23 Q. Could you please describe to us what these conditions were.

24 A. There was a doctor, a Serb, at the camp, who was charged by the

25 Crisis Staff to issue certificates for people to be allowed to return to

Page 17859

1 Prijedor, especially those whose medical condition was serious. A

2 condition was that the person in question own a house or have family in

3 Prijedor, and one of the conditions was that they have a family member

4 fighting in the ranks of the Serb army at the front line and have a -- an

5 affidavit signed by a Serb.

6 One possible condition was also that the person in question

7 was -- had voluntarily given blood, and then they could be issued the

8 documents allowing them to go to Prijedor.

9 Q. You described that -- that certificates were issued. Who -- who

10 was signing these certificates?

11 A. The certificates or the permits, or, rather, the medical

12 documentation, was signed by Dr. Ivic. Then there was the president of

13 the Red Cross, Pero Curguz, and the Trnoplje camp commander,

14 Major Slobodan Kuruzovic.

15 Q. Thank you. You just mentioned that the camp commander was

16 Major Slobodan Kuruzovic. How did you understand that he was the camp

17 commander?

18 A. The first day we arrived in the camp, we were separated from the

19 other deported women and children on the bus and we were taken to see

20 Mr. Kuruzovic, who introduced himself and said that he was in charge of

21 the camp. Afterwards, he ordered the soldiers to take us to the medical

22 centre.

23 Q. Had you ever met him before?

24 A. I did not know Mr. Kuruzovic before these events.

25 Q. And can you tell us to which armed formation he belonged?

Page 17860

1 A. Considering the uniform that he wore, he was a member of the

2 infantry.

3 Q. Sir, you told us about your arrest and that the majority of the

4 detainees held in the camp were Muslims. Do you know where these

5 detainees were coming from? Where were they living before being

6 arrested?

7 A. Before the war, the detainees had lived in the area of Kozarac.

8 That's where they had their houses.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to those Muslims living in the Kozarac

10 area who were not arrested and brought to the -- to Trnopolje camp?

11 A. Could you please repeat your question?

12 Q. Certainly. You told us that the detainees that were with you in

13 the camp came from the Kozarac area. You also told us that the majority

14 of the population in Kozarac was of -- were -- were Muslims. I would

15 like to know, were all the Muslims arrested, or was -- was a part of the

16 Muslim population which -- that was not arrested and brought to the camp?

17 And I'm referring to the Muslim population living in the Kozarac area.

18 A. The combat units of the Serbian army primarily shelled the

19 northern part of Kozarac. If we divide the area into two halves, then it

20 was the northern part. And some of the people were expelled towards

21 Prijedor, the women and the children. And the men were separated and

22 taken to the Trnopolje, Omarska, or Keraterm camps. The other half of

23 the area, the southern part called Trnopolje, was shelled less. So the

24 local population managed to hide in the area, and they stayed at home.

25 Some of them probably fled to Prijedor, a smaller part.

Page 17861

1 Q. As a result of the attack that you just described, was the Muslim

2 population living in the Kozarac area reduced in numbers?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you were hand -- when you were held in Trnopolje camp, did

5 you ever overhear any camp official talking about the Muslims living in

6 the Prijedor area?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us exactly what you heard in this regard.

9 A. One time, I entered the building of the Red Cross where the camp

10 administration was also located. I talked to members of the Red Cross,

11 whom I had met previously, and Major Kuruzovic was sitting not far from

12 me, together with his associates. There were some civilians there. They

13 were in a heated discussion. And at one point I heard that

14 Major Kuruzovic was asked several questions and he said that those people

15 whose houses had been destroyed would be sent outside, away from this

16 area, and that only ten per cent would be allowed to remain in the area.

17 Q. [Microphone not activated] Thank you.

18 Thank you. Do you remember approximately when you overheard this

19 conversation?

20 A. That conversation was sometime in early June of 1992.

21 Q. How far were you from Major Kuruzovic and the other persons

22 participating to this conversation when you overheard it? Approximately,

23 of course.

24 A. I was about three to four metres away from them.

25 Q. And you told us that there were some civilians who participated

Page 17862

1 to this conversation. Do you know who they were? Have you ever seen

2 them before in the camp?

3 A. I remember that after I left the building of the Red Cross I saw

4 these civilians who had been sitting with the major in the yard in front

5 of the building. And a colleague of mine at the time who was with me

6 told me this civilian was the president of the Trnopolje local commune,

7 that -- of the local administration of the area.

8 Q. You told us that you were -- that this conversation took place in

9 the building belonging to the Red Cross, to the Serbian Red Cross. Can

10 you tell us why you were there at that time. Why did you go there?

11 A. I went there to buy some bread for our medical team at the

12 medical centre.

13 Q. Sir, you told us that present to this conversation were

14 Major Kuruzovic, and the civilians that you specified were, you

15 understood later, were members of the Trnopolje local commune, actually

16 the president of the local commune. Do you remember if there was anybody

17 else present to this conversation?

18 A. I believe that Pero Curguz was there as well. He had his back to

19 me. And several soldiers, but I didn't pay any attention to them.

20 Q. And who was Pero Curguz?

21 A. Mr. Pero Curguz was the president of the Serbian Red Cross in

22 Prijedor.

23 Q. You told us what Kuruzovic said about reducing the number of

24 Muslims in Prijedor to ten per cent. While you were detained in

25 Trnopolje, did you hear anyone else talking about the number of Muslims

Page 17863

1 in Prijedor?

2 A. A few months later, sometime in September of 1992, I talked to a

3 Serbian soldier who was an exception, unlike the others, and we had had

4 closer contacts for a while. In that conversation, that soldier told me,

5 as we were discussing the situation in Prijedor, he said that certain

6 political structures in Prijedor are against even two per cent of Muslims

7 remaining in Prijedor.

8 Q. You -- you told us that this guard referred to certain political

9 structures. Did you understand what he was referring to? What were

10 these political structures?

11 A. The only political structure, after the takeover of power in

12 Prijedor in April of 1992, was the SDS, which is the

13 Serbian Democratic Party, and their executive organ, the Crisis Staff.

14 There were basically no other political parties or political structures

15 there at the time.

16 Q. And to your knowledge for what reasons they wanted to reduce the

17 number of Muslims living in Prijedor to two per cent?

18 A. The politics of the SDS before the conflict was clear. The

19 Serbian politicians, starting with Mr. Karadzic, Ms. Plavsic, and others,

20 clearly said that they did not want the Serbs to live together with the

21 Muslims and said that the Serbs and Muslims could only live next to each

22 other. All the events that happened in Prijedor and in other parts of

23 Bosnia meant the implementation of the politics that was advocated by the

24 SDS. The politics was to implement the plans to expel the Muslims from

25 certain areas which they considered to be Serbian areas.

Page 17864

1 Q. And to your knowledge was this -- you talked about this plan.

2 Was this plan implemented in the Prijedor area?

3 A. The plan of so-called ethnic cleansing in the Prijedor area was

4 completely achieved. Their wish was fully realized.

5 Q. And by what means did -- was this plan implemented?

6 A. The plan was implemented through combat, that is, with the attack

7 of combat units, against the unarmed Bosnian Muslims. Then by locking

8 them up during the combat operations in the camps, by causing fear, by

9 committing rape, by beating, by locking people in camps, and by deporting

10 the local population to parts of Bosnia which were under the control of

11 the Bosnian army.

12 Q. And do you know which forces implemented this plan that you just

13 described?

14 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, at this point I must object. It's so

15 broad. This witness should testify about the specific adjudicated fact.

16 He's not military analyst or some sort of this -- some expert to explain

17 the plans. I think it's too broad.

18 MR. RINDI: Your Honour, if I may reply.

19 It is the submission of the Prosecution that this line of

20 questioning should be allowed because it's directly relevant to the

21 rejected adjudicated facts to which the witness -- about which the

22 witness is testifying.

23 As Your Honours know, these conversations that he overheard are

24 extremely important because they fit into the Prosecution's theory of the

25 case that there was indeed a plan to expel the non-Serbs from the

Page 17865

1 Prijedor area. So it is very important for the witness -- for

2 Your Honours to -- I mean, it is very important to establish the veracity

3 of the conversations that he overheard. Were they just veiled threats;

4 were they just the ideas expressed by the persons making the speeches; or

5 were they actually makes reference to an actual plan.

6 And the witness is competent and can talk about that. I'm not

7 asking him any details, any military details.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: Not in his summary. It's not what the witness is

9 supposed to testify. He's supposed to tell about a specific adjudicated

10 fact. This not -- what was prior to the war, what the member of the SDS

11 said, or some sort of this. I mean, it's not part of adjudicated fact.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE HALL: Please proceed, Mr. Rindi.

14 MR. RINDI:

15 Q. You just --

16 JUDGE HARHOFF: Mr. Krgovic, just to explain a bit. The

17 reasoning of the Chamber is that the questions put by the Prosecutor do,

18 in fact, go directly to the denied adjudicated facts. So it is within

19 the realm of that particular fact. Thanks.

20 MR. RINDI:

21 Q. Mr. Witness, you were -- you just told us about the

22 implementation of this plan. Do you know what forces implemented this

23 plan, to ethnically cleanse the Prijedor area?

24 A. Army and police forces from the area of Prijedor municipality.

25 Q. You told us that you were -- that you were held in Trnopolje camp

Page 17866

1 together with men, women, children, and then the elderly people. You

2 also told us that most of the detainees were non-Serbs. When you were

3 detained in Trnopolje camp, did any camp official officially explain to

4 you why you -- you had been -- you were detained there, had you been

5 arrested and detained there? Was there any official explanation?

6 A. There was no official explanation, of course. But from talking

7 to them, their story was that they were keeping us Muslims in Trnopolje

8 from attacks by Muslim extremists which might come from the woods. That

9 was what they said.

10 Q. To your knowledge, were the Muslims in Trnopolje -- were the

11 detainees in Trnopolje in danger of an attack by Muslim extremists?

12 A. Such a danger, of course, is absurd. There was no such danger.

13 Nobody would ever attack their own people.

14 Q. While you were at the camp, was the camp ever attacked by Muslim

15 extremists?

16 A. It was not.

17 Q. Were detainees interrogated while held at the camp?

18 A. Some of them were.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... this specific

20 adjudicated fact.

21 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Rindi, you have wondered outside of the

22 adjudicated fact.

23 MR. RINDI:

24 Q. Mr. Witness, you told us about what the -- the explanation that

25 you had been given as to why you were detained was. Did you understand

Page 17867

1 what the real purpose of Trnopolje camp was?

2 A. Of course. The real purpose of the Trnopolje camp was to expel

3 the local population from their homes and to then expel them based on a

4 plan which the Serbian leading structures in the area had.

5 If we follow the sequence of events, and which I was

6 unfortunately able to follow, they weren't working at random. There was

7 a clear plan which they followed. It was a clear plan.

8 Q. Mr. Witness, while you were detained at Trnopolje camp, did you

9 ever hear any detainee talking about Stojan Zupljanin?

10 MR. KRGOVIC: Your Honour, I object to that. It's not

11 [indiscernible] to the specified adjudicated fact.

12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Rindi.

13 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, this is a matter which arose during the

14 proofing of the witness, and I believe I should be allowed to lead this

15 evidence because is -- it's extremely relevant, as it shows the direct

16 involvement of the accused in Trnopolje. And also it shows that the

17 detainees were not free to move out of the camp. This is a matter which

18 arose in -- during proofing.

19 JUDGE HALL: Well, you've led evidence about their not -- their

20 movements being restricted. That -- and you needn't return to that. But

21 this ...

22 No, Mr. Rindi, you must confine yourself to the adjudicated

23 facts.

24 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, I have one last question -- a few last

25 questions. I would need to move to a private session.

Page 17876

1 resulting in the death of several soldiers who were on their way back

2 from Knin and that a number of them were taken prisoner.

3 A. I know that in the village of Hambarine, an armed conflict took

4 place, but there is no connection between Hambarine and Kozarac

5 whatsoever, because they are 15 kilometres apart, as you may know.

6 Q. Do you know that a number of people from Hambarine withdrew to

7 Kozarac and that some of them who sustained injuries during the attack by

8 the Muslim TO were accommodated in the medical centre in Kozarac?

9 A. I can ascertain that this is a fabrication.

10 Q. And you also don't know that on the main road between Prijedor

11 and Banja Luka, in the area of Kozarac, an incident occurred in which a

12 Serb soldier was killed?

13 A. No. The Serbs sent a tank to the intersection in Kozarac. There

14 were no incidents.

15 Q. Do you know that before the attack on Kozarac, fire was opened

16 from a Zolja wounding one soldier?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. And after that the tank was withdrawn from that intersection.

19 A. I don't know about any attack. There was no attack at all, sir.

20 Q. Sir, you will agree with me that before this conflict in

21 Hambarine and the incident in Kozarac, in the area of Prijedor

22 municipality there were no armed conflicts; is that right?

23 A. Not that I'm aware of.

24 Q. Do you know that in Kozarac the Territorial Defence units were

25 set up which, alongside the Kozarac police, established the so-called

Page 17877

1 unit for the defence of Kozarac?

2 A. The Kozarac TO unit, as well as that of the entire Prijedor

3 municipality, as far as I know, had been activated months before the

4 attack. That was an official defence of Prijedor, due to the prevailing

5 political situation. That was officially done because our lads, who were

6 members of the TO, were engaged, keeping guard in Prijedor itself.

7 So it was related to proper orders that were being issued. It

8 has nothing to do with the defence of Kozarac.

9 Q. Therefore, you don't know that in May of 1992, when you returned

10 to Kozarac from Banja Luka, a special TO unit was set up there?

11 A. As I said, I am not familiar with proper details, given that I

12 was not in the area at the time.

13 Q. Do you know that immediately after these incidents, on the

14 22nd and 24th - I'm talking about Hambarine and Kozarac

15 respectively - the Muslim and Croat TO unit led by Slavko Ecimovic

16 attacked Prijedor in an attempt to take over the town of Prijedor, on the

17 30th of May?

18 A. I heard of that event, but I'm not familiar with the details. As

19 far as I can remember, that happened, yes, on the 30th of May.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17878

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And I'm sure you know that a number of residents of Puharska,

3 Trnopolje, and Kamicani who had come to Trnopolje returned home after

4 certain period of time?

5 A. Women and children were moved from Trnopolje to Prijedor, those

6 who had originally come to Prijedor; and at the request of the medical

7 centre, a number of women and children, with the approval of

8 Mr. Kuruzovic, left the camp itself and found shelter in the houses

9 surrounding the camp and in the village of Sivci. That was an attempt to

10 help these women and children.

11 Q. Now, apart from the reason given by the leadership in Trnopolje,

12 they also said that it was unsafe for the Muslims and Croats to live in

13 the surrounding villages because there was a danger from the Serbian

14 extremists who were attacking and robbing the Muslims and the Croats.

15 A. The Serbs extremists launched attacks, there is no doubt about

16 that, and that posed a significant danger to the local population.

17 Q. And you certainly know that a number of people who were at

18 Trnopolje in June and were sent home requested to be admitted to

19 Trnopolje again.

20 A. No, I don't know anything about that. Why would they do that?

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show 2D03-1431 to

22 the witness, please.

23 Q. Sir, this is a list, and the date you see here is the

24 9th of June, a list of persons who would return to Trnopolje. Please

25 look where these people are from. Trnopolje, Kamicani, Suhi Brod.

Page 17879

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May -- we can turn to the next

2 page.

3 Q. On this page we see a number of people from Kozarac.

4 Do you know Halid Grozdanic from Kozarac, sir?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Or somebody from his family Dildana [phoen], Zinajda, and Emina?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know a Nura Mujkanovic from Kozarac?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Look at these people from Kozarac: Fazlic, Hodzic, Paratusic,

11 Murcehajic, Kenjar, Denic. Do you know of any of these people?

12 A. Well, some of the names are familiar. I believe that they are

13 from Kozarac, judging by their family names. Many of them certainly.

14 Q. Did you see them at Trnopolje?

15 A. I may have seen some. I can't remember the names of all persons

16 I saw. Could we ...

17 Q. Should we enlarge?

18 A. No, not necessary.

19 Q. Would you like us to go to private session?

20 A. No, no.

21 Thousands of people went through those camps, so I can't remember

22 whom I saw what -- at what time. That's the problem.

23 Q. But judging by their names, these people are from Kozarac?

24 A. Well, judging by the names, it is possible that most of them are

25 from Kozarac or the surrounding area.

Page 17880

1 Q. There are also people from Kevljani and Kozarusa. Where are

2 these places with respect to Kozarac?

3 A. If we look from the centre of Kozarac, Kevljani is to the

4 south-east, whereas Kozarusa is in the west, toward Prijedor.

5 Q. Are Kevljani and Kozarusa part of the wider area of Kozarac?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You remember that this document was shown to you in the

8 Sikirica case?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You commented on it then.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender this

12 document.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But, for the sake of truth, can I

14 explain this document?

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Yes, go ahead.

17 A. At the beginning of the document, there was a name: Cela. That

18 was on page 1. That's a Muslim settlement between Hambarine and

19 Rinjak [phoen], or Kozarac, you see here. Well, the crucial question

20 that arises from this document is not whether they were -- wanted to

21 return to Trnopolje but, rather, it is how these people ever came to

22 Cela. That's the problem.

23 These people, on the first day after the surrender, were first

24 expelled from their houses, or Kozarac, in an organised fashion. They

25 were expelled in the direction of Prijedor, and from Prijedor they were

Page 17881

1 expelled to Cela. And Cela was a Muslim village, and the Muslim

2 population accepted them and took care of them. These inhabitants on

3 this list did not know what was happening in Kozarac in the meantime.

4 They didn't know how people lived there. And that -- they probably

5 expressed the wish to return to their homes. They were not in a position

6 to know that their homes had been largely destroyed. This is the real

7 truth that is -- of which this document is proof.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it is time

9 for the break, and I can return to this document later. But in the

10 meantime I seek to tender it.

11 JUDGE HALL: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, Mr. -- and

12 we would rule on that application after the break.

13 We would return in 20 minutes.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 [The witness takes the stand]

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. We were dealing with this document. And as far as I understood

21 your testimony, this is about persons from the area of Kozarac who, after

22 the attack on Kozarac, fled and found themselves in the village of Cela

23 at that moment; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you know that a number of people in June were staying at

Page 17882

1 Cela?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said that after the attack on Kozarac some of these people

4 came to Prijedor and were transferred to Cela from there; right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the person, the contact person, is Mehmed Solo. Do you know

7 that he was the president of the local commune at Cela?

8 A. No, I don't know that.

9 Q. And among these people there were some who, before that, were at

10 Trnopolje; right?

11 A. I cannot be sure. I know that from Trnopolje camp, in the early

12 days, two buses with women and little children left Trnopolje because of

13 the disastrous conditions prevailing at the time. But whether or not

14 somebody from this list was there, I really cannot say.

15 Q. And this document is titled: List of persons who would return to

16 Trnopolje. Which means that these are people who would like to return

17 there. That's what follows from this document. Correct?

18 A. These expelled persons were not aware of the current situation at

19 Kozarac. I suppose that they wanted to go to their homes, rather than to

20 the camp.

21 Q. But it follows from this document that these people want to

22 return to Trnopolje.

23 A. That's what the document states.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that now

25 the document can be admitted. And this document was admitted through

Page 17883

1 this witness in the Sikirica case.

2 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, I object to the admission of this

3 document. We don't know who authored this document and where it came

4 from. And the fact that it was previously admitted through him does not

5 necessarily mean that it has to be admitted in this case.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE HALL: Before the Chamber rules, Mr. Krgovic, we appreciate

8 that the witness has accepted your -- has inferentially accepted your

9 interpretation that the document which -- the English translation of

10 which, on the screen, the caption is, "List of persons who would return

11 to Trnopolje," that it is intended to convey persons who wanted to return

12 to Trnopolje. But couldn't -- we wonder if we could have the benefit of

13 the interpreters who, if they have the -- if you could read the original

14 B/C/S and see what the interpreters make of -- of the caption, please.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I can read this out, Your Honours.

16 "List of persons who would, or would like to, return to

17 Trnopolje."

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: It can be interpreted

19 either way.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In Serbo-Croatian this is pretty

21 clear. This is something in between "would" and "would like." So I

22 understand the interpreter's difficulty in interpreting this. In the

23 Serbo-Croatian language as it was, this is clear. But when it's

24 translated into English, it's more tricky. But it's a part of a set of

25 documents from Trnopolje.

Page 17884

1 I will show the witness another document, which is also stamped,

2 and it is another document from this set from Trnopolje itself and it

3 speaks about the persons detained there. I owe this explanation to the

4 Trial Chamber about the author as far as I was able to find out, but I

5 don't want to testify now. That's why I asked the witness about the

6 person who drafted this list and whose phone number can be found on this

7 list.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In the Serbian version we can see

10 it, but it hasn't been translated, so it will have to be translated.

11 There's a phone number up there, 28-964. And below that we read

12 "Solo Mehmed" in the upper right-hand corner. He's the contact person.

13 JUDGE HALL: Yes, but even so, the appearance of that name on the

14 original of the document, does it - without there being some evidence

15 from somewhere or other as to who that is - in terms of dealing the

16 problem Mr. Rindi raised about provenance, we still are no clearer as to

17 the authorship, Mr. Krgovic.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I received this

19 document as admitted in a previous case, the Sikirica case, where it was

20 an exhibit, and it is part of the disclosure that we got from the OTP

21 before the testimony of this witness. It's a number of documents from

22 Trnopolje that were admitted through this witness in the Sikirica case.

23 I can offer the Trial Chamber no more than that and the

24 transcript of that case. But the document is certainly relevant; It's

25 part of a set of documents. But I can show the witness another document

Page 17885

1 and then we may be able to see the link better, and perhaps then you can

2 decide.

3 JUDGE HALL: Yes, please proceed.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us show the witness

5 Exhibit 2D03-1439.

6 Q. If you remember, before the break I asked you about the

7 inhabitants of Puharska, and you may know that some of them were at

8 Trnopolje and that they returned from Trnopolje.

9 So some people from Puharska were at Trnopolje; did you know

10 that?

11 A. I know that many people from Kozarac were at the village of

12 Puharska and in other areas populated by Muslims. Whether or not anybody

13 from Puharska was supposed to return to Kozarac and then to Trnopolje,

14 well, I suppose that this is about people who were also from Kozarac who

15 were also expelled in the early days and found temporary refuge in

16 Prijedor and at Puharska. And, certainly, the desire of all these people

17 was always to return to their homes. That's how I interpret this

18 document.

19 Q. And based on the last names you conclude that these are people

20 from the Kozarac area; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And can you see that there's a stamp of the Red Cross and a

23 signature of the Staff for Refugees; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The title is: List of persons who are returning to Trnopolje.

Page 17886

1 It is clear from this document that these people want to return to

2 Trnopolje; right? That's what this document says?

3 A. Yes, to go to Trnopolje. It says to return --

4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Krgovic, I have -- I have a hesitation here.

5 Are we talking about Trnopolje as a village, a hamlet; or are we talking

6 about Trnopolje as a camp, as the camp site?

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. It's the camp.

8 Underneath, you can see the signature of another person and you see that

9 is Slobodan Kuruzovic who is the camp commander in Trnopolje. On the

10 left-hand side can you see his name.

11 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... because if I

12 remember well, the witness, in the beginning of his statement, talked

13 about Trnopolje as part of whatever village or hamlet it was.

14 So is this a list of persons, if -- if we -- we had -- we had to

15 accept that it was a list of persons who would like to return to

16 Trnopolje, is that a list of persons who would like to return to the camp

17 of Trnopolje or who would like to return to the hamlet or village of

18 Trnopolje? Did they live there?

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness answered

20 and said that these people were from Kozarac, accommodated in Puharska,

21 and they were now returning to Trnopolje, but not to the village. You

22 can see from this form there is the Staff for Refugees on one side and on

23 the other side there is the type-signed name of Slobodan Kuruzovic, who

24 was the commander of the centre at Trnopolje. And you can see at the

25 end: "It is required to confirm the identity of persons while entering

Page 17887

1 the buses."

2 So it was an organised transport.

3 Q. And just one question to the witness. Please tell us:

4 Slobodan Kuruzovic, is that the Major Kuruzovic that you talked about as

5 commander in Trnopolje?

6 A. Yes. But one remark: Mr. Slobodan Kuruzovic was a member of the

7 Prijedor Crisis Staff, so he decided about all the issues and the

8 measures, or actions, which were necessary to pass decisions in relation

9 to the return of people or any other events in the area.

10 And if I might add, to clarify the situation, I'm a

11 hundred per cent certain that these people wanted to return to their

12 homes in the Kozarac area. However, since Kozarac was destroyed at the

13 time, they knew this; they knew they couldn't return there. So they

14 wanted to return to Trnopolje village; not the camp but to the village,

15 to the neighbouring houses, which were still inhabited by Muslims at the

16 time. We can see the date: 7 June, 8 June. At that time, those villages

17 were still inhabited and they were around the camp.

18 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Rindi wanted to make an intervention.

19 MR. RINDI: I also would like to notice that the document is not

20 signed by Slobodan Kuruzovic. It was just a type-signed -- the typed

21 name, but it's not signed by him.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] That's what I said. I believe that

23 there's only a typed signature.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE HALL: Do I understand, Mr. Krgovic, that the document that

Page 17888

1 is presently on the screen is a companion document to the earlier

2 document?

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE HALL: And your application is to have both admitted?

5 MR. KRGOVIC: Both admitted as one document.

6 JUDGE HALL: As one document.

7 The Chamber agrees. Admitted and marked.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, document IDs 2D03-1431 and 2D03-1439

9 are both admitted as Exhibit 2D00130. Thank you, Your Honours.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Sir, another question related to this: Do you know that, apart

12 from these people from the Red Cross and the soldiers who were in

13 Trnopolje, there were other Muslims who worked to supply food, to assist

14 during cleaning or the accommodation of prisoners, that there were people

15 who came to Trnopolje?

16 A. As far as I recall, when the Serbian Red Cross first came to

17 Trnopolje, during those first days, there was a Muslim woman - she said

18 she was a Muslim woman - and all the others were Serbs.

19 Q. And do you know that the 4th, "Cetvrti Juli," or

20 4th July Company, and the Trnopolje local commune, some people from there

21 assisted people from Trnopolje?

22 A. Could you please be more specific, sir?

23 Q. I'll show you a document.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

25 2D03-1441.

Page 17889

1 Q. Did you know that the local Red Cross from Trnopolje was assisted

2 by these people and that they went to Trnopolje? For example,

3 Mustafa Galmocanin.

4 A. This document is actually proof of the fact that the people who

5 were on this list were employed in the local municipal organisation

6 called 4 July and that before the conflict they had earned their salary,

7 which they were unable to take out in the bank because Kozarac was

8 surrounded and we were unable to leave the area of Kozarac and go to

9 Prijedor to the bank, because the bank was there. As a comprise,

10 somebody picked up this money, picked up their salary, as it says in the

11 header: Payment of salary. The abbreviation is for salary. For the

12 work. And then the municipal was given to these people in the camp.

13 These people were detainees.

14 Q. So if we understand the document correctly, these are people from

15 Kozarac; right?

16 A. Yes, these are people from Kozarac.

17 Q. And they worked in the municipal company, 4 July. And they were

18 in Trnopolje in late July 1992; right?

19 A. Probably.

20 Q. And did these people work on maintenance, municipal maintenance,

21 in Trnopolje?

22 A. No. They were regular detainees.

23 Q. But they received salary for their work while they were in

24 Trnopolje?

25 A. They received their salary for work they had done before the

Page 17890

1 conflict. And the money was in the bank, and they were unable to take it

2 out.

3 Q. So somebody took the money in the bank and then brought it there,

4 probably somebody from the administration or somebody else who was

5 authorised, and then that person brought the money to Trnopolje, and

6 based on the signatures, they received the money?

7 A. Yes, that's how it probably was.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

9 tender this document.

10 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, as Exhibit 2D00131. Thank you.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Sir, let's go back to a specific issue.

14 In answering the question of the Prosecutor regarding the

15 conversation in which Major Kuruzovic participated, you said that you saw

16 the representative of the local commune in front of the office of the

17 Red Cross. The office of the Red Cross was across the road from the

18 cultural centre, so to speak, which was in Trnopolje; it was there when

19 you crossed the road. Right?

20 A. The building of the Red Cross at the time was located in a former

21 cafe, inside the complex that also housed the cinema hall.

22 Q. Wasn't the building of the Red Cross across the road?

23 A. They later moved to that building that was across the road, after

24 the camp had been in existence for a while.

25 Q. Do you know when?

Page 17891

1 A. I don't recall the exact date, but it was sometime in

2 July of 1992.

3 Q. And the person who you described as being from the Trnopolje

4 local commune was sitting with Kuruzovic in front of the cultural centre

5 or in front of the other building?

6 A. He was sitting in this cafe which housed the administration and

7 the Red Cross. They were inside.

8 Q. And when you talked about this conversation that he had, he was

9 inside or outside?

10 A. He was outside. And he was talking there with some other people.

11 Q. And when you heard this commentary made by Major Kuruzovic, apart

12 from the people who were there, Pero Curguz, whom you mentioned, for

13 example, were there other people there, in that room, from the Red Cross?

14 A. Other members of the Red Cross were in that room. Some young

15 girls who were selling bread to the camp inmates.

16 Q. Was a woman called Ljubica, who was working for the Red Cross,

17 there at the time?

18 A. I know the person. She did work for the Red Cross. But I can't

19 recall whether she was there at that moment.

20 Q. You remember that you gave a statement to the Prosecution at --

21 at the beginning of these events. That was sometime in 1998. If you

22 want me to read out the part where you talk about who was present, I can

23 do that, just to refresh your memory, and can you confirm whether you

24 remember that.

25 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, if I may, this was not a statement that

Page 17892

1 the witness subscribed, if I'm not mistaken. It was never adopted by the

2 witness. So it was just an internal compilation. It was not a signed

3 statement by the witness.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no intention of tendering

5 it. I merely want to refresh the witness's memory to see whether he

6 remembers this. That was all I wanted to do, to read out this part.

7 JUDGE HALL: I'm wondering whether, instead of it being read out,

8 the witness - assuming it's in a language that he understands - shouldn't

9 just be handed the statement and then you can ask your question.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I can do that.

11 Your Honours, it's page 9 in the Serbian version. If I could

12 just give it to the witness to read the underlined bits.

13 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Rindi.

14 MR. RINDI: Your Honours, the witness never gave this statement.

15 It was never subscribed by the witness. And I think he should just be

16 asked questions without showing him the statement, because it was never

17 really adopted by the statement -- adopted by the witness, nor it was

18 re-read. It is not a proper statement in the sense of the word.

19 JUDGE HALL: I haven't lost your objection along that line. But

20 although the -- as an historical fact, it may not have been adopted by

21 him by way of being signed, if the -- it was but for the absence of his

22 signature an account of what he would have reported, it is something

23 which I see no reason why it can't be - it isn't being put in evidence -

24 why he can't be shown it. Because one of the factors in this trial is

25 that we're dealing with testimony of events that would have occurred a

Page 17893

1 fairly long time ago.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, please read the part which is underlined, those two

4 passages.

5 MR. RINDI: Can counsel please indicate where in the English

6 version that is, please.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I received from the

8 Prosecution what's page 9 in the B/C/S, and it's not in e-court. I

9 believe it's page 8 in English, as far as I can see. It's the

10 paragraph that the witness talked about. It relates to the conversation

11 Kuruzovic had.

12 Q. Sir, have you read this portion?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. Do you recall talking to the Prosecutor back then, in 1998?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And here you mention a certain Ljubica who was there. Do you

17 remember now that she was in the room when this conversation took place?

18 A. When I gave this statement, I said that she was in the room but

19 she was not in the group who conducted conversation.

20 Q. How big is the room?

21 A. It was a former restaurant or a cafe. 25 to 30 square metres.

22 Q. And where were you standing in regard to where Ljubica was

23 standing?

24 A. When I entered the room, on my left were the girls from the

25 Red Cross who were selling bread. And on the right-hand side were

Page 17894

1 sitting the group, including the major, and they were talking.

2 Q. And you were close to the table where the girls were.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And they were able of hearing the same thing that you heard.

5 A. Yes. Provided that they listened.

6 Q. And at that time there was no mention of Prijedor. The only

7 topic of the conversation was Kozarac. Is that right?

8 A. As I said, I entered the room. I don't know what they had been

9 talking about before that. All I heard was just one segment of the

10 conversation. That's the situation that prevailed on the ground at the

11 time. Nobody knew what was going to happen with the people who were in

12 the camp and in the surrounding area.

13 The representative of the local commune -- and I must impart this

14 information to this Tribunal. Before and during the conflict, agreement

15 was reached between the local Serb and Muslim populations in Trnopolje

16 not to attack each other and to hand in the weapons. The Serbs promised

17 their neighbours that they would not attack them and that they would

18 guarantee their safety. My assumption is that this particular member of

19 the local commune, alongside Major Kuruzovic, wanted to continue the

20 discussion about further actions regarding the local population.

21 Q. If you look at the last sentence concerning what Kuruzovic said,

22 you say that he didn't mention any specific area; therefore, the

23 ten per cent that he mentioned did not refer to any specific area,

24 according to him?

25 A. Yes, that's correct. Mr. Kuruzovic did not say specifically

Page 17895

1 whether he was talking about the area of Kozarac or Prijedor

2 municipality.

3 Q. Or perhaps the entire territory of Republika Srpska.

4 A. I don't know that.

5 Q. Sir, are you aware that after a certain period of time

6 representatives of the Red Cross came to Trnopolje sometime in the month

7 of August?

8 A. Yes. Representatives of the International Red Cross came to

9 Trnopolje in August.

10 Q. And do you know that there was a proposal made by the ECMM for

11 the residents of Trnopolje to be evacuated to third countries through

12 mediation of the Red Cross, and they reached this conclusion on the basis

13 of what they saw in Trnopolje?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And eventually you yourself left under the auspices of the

16 Red Cross; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

20 questions for this witness.

21 I just apologise. I forgot one topic, and I've just been

22 reminded of that. One question only.

23 Q. If you can, you said that after this meeting a soldier told you

24 that some political structures in Prijedor were stating that this

25 percentage of the Muslim population could even be smaller, up to