101201ED

Page 17955

1 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

2 And I apologise, Your Honours, the pseudonym sheet will be under

3 seal.

4 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you.

5 Q. Now, sir, moving to late 1991, early 1992, did you ever hear

6 about the existence of parallel Serbian government structures in Prijedor

7 municipality prior to the Serbian takeover of power in Prijedor?

8 A. Before the takeover of power, or, rather, earlier than that, I

9 did not have any premonition that something like that would happen.

10 However, later, in the spring of 1992, I heard on the radio and from some

11 other people that there was an announcement on Radio Prijedor that a

12 Serbian municipality or Serbian Municipal Assembly, Serbian Executive

13 Committees were formed, but I didn't know about that earlier. I heard

14 about that from others and on the radio. That was maybe a month before

15 the takeover of power.

16 Q. Turning to April 1992 - again, before the takeover - were you

17 aware of a meeting in Prijedor in which the staffing of police was

18 discussed?

19 A. Yes. I heard of that meeting, and I heard that the chief of

20 police from Banja Luka was present at the public security station in

21 Prijedor where the meeting was held, although I didn't attend. I heard

22 that there was discussion about regionalisation and of moving to -- the

23 police into the region of the Serbian Krajina, that uniforms would be

24 changed, et cetera.

25 Q. Now when you say that the chief of police from Banja Luka was

Page 17956

1 present, do you know that person's name?

2 A. As far as I remember, Stojan Zupljanin was chief of police of

3 Banja Luka at the time.

4 Q. Did you hear whether there was any specific discussion about

5 appointment of certain individuals to positions within the police in

6 Prijedor?

7 A. I know that at that meeting, although I wasn't present, I heard

8 of it, and I heard that there was discussion about annexing it to the

9 Serbian region. As far as the leadership of the police is concerned,

10 there were the commander of police and other high executive positions,

11 and this is the area where the SDS created the greatest problems with

12 respect to the appointments to these positions.

13 Q. Just very briefly, could you describe what sort of problems the

14 SDS were creating in this respect.

15 A. For example, the former president of SDS in Prijedor,

16 Srdjo Srdic, I happened to be at the meeting with the president of the

17 executive committee, the late Kovacevic, when Srdic was there, prior to

18 the appointment of the chief of police in Prijedor and the commander of

19 police. Srdic said as follows: If the things were not done according to

20 their proposal, a war will break out in Prijedor and that will serve as a

21 tool to serve all the issues and problems that hadn't been solved during

22 the Second World War as well.

23 Q. Now I'm going to move on and asking you some questions about what

24 you experienced during the Serb takeover of Prijedor at the end of

25 April 1992.

Page 17957

1 And, first of all, I'd like to ask you, did you go into work on

2 the day of the takeover?

3 A. Well, look, nobody expected us -- actually, none of us expected

4 that to happen. That was a normal and usual day for me. I was getting

5 ready to go to work, and at that point the then-chief of police Talundjic

6 called me by phone and asked me what I was doing. I said I was getting

7 ready to work. He said, There's no need for you to go because in

8 Prijedor the Serbian SDS had taken power and they posted guards in front

9 of the municipal building and all other important facilities, such as the

10 bank, the public auditing office, et cetera, so he said that there were

11 armed people everywhere. So on that day it was impossible to go to work.

12 Q. Did you see for yourself whether there were, in fact, armed

13 people on the streets in Prijedor?

14 A. Of course I was able to see them. I could see from my window

15 both armed men on the move but also some guards posted outside the SDS

16 headquarters. And, of course, I also saw from my window a large number

17 of armed people dressed in camouflage uniforms.

18 Q. Can you recall if there were any announcements over the radio at

19 that time regarding the employment of non-Serbs?

20 A. As far as I recall, this is how it happened: First of all, but

21 specifically later, each company or work organisation either dismissed

22 their workers or they simply refused the non-Serbs to continue working.

23 Then later, when they were unable to come and they wanted to see some

24 people in positions, there was an announcement on the radio that

25 everybody must come to their respective places of work. And I think that

Page 17958

1 was one of the ways to effect arrests of those who hadn't already been

2 arrested. They were invited to come to their workplace and then they

3 would conduct interviews there.

4 Q. Now just moving to the first few days after the takeover.

5 Do you know if any non-Serbs remained in any political positions

6 or any positions in the municipal government in Prijedor?

7 A. As far as I know, starting from the Executive Board of the

8 municipality, none of the elected people elected in the elections

9 remained in office.

10 As for the companies, I know that there were some such cases.

11 Some people reported for work. And I know that there were some people

12 who were at the head of the SIZ, the so-called SIZ for refugees and

13 things like that. And I know that the Executive Committee quickly

14 changed that. This new Executive Committee, which in my eyes was

15 illegal, decided to replace those individuals. For example, that applied

16 to the deputy or the public defender or the president of the Red Cross

17 organisation, et cetera.

18 Q. With the removal of non-Serbs from political positions and these

19 other positions you've referred to, who replaced them?

20 A. I couldn't find out that immediately because I had very scarce

21 information at the time. However, later, I heard that those were the

22 people thought to be suitable by the SDS, meaning the Serbs.

23 Q. Do you know, sir, whether non-Serbs who were being dismissed from

24 these positions were given any explanation for their dismissals?

25 A. As far as I know, these people who were dismissed, at least for

Page 17959

1 some of them, I know that they went to Omarska and they were -- they died

2 there.

3 Q. I'd just like to ask that particular question again.

4 When -- when people were dismissed or told not to come into work,

5 was any explanation given as to why they were not to come in to work?

6 A. No. For example, in my case, or anybody else in the

7 Executive Committee were not provided any explanation, nor did anybody

8 consider that they should give us an explanation, simply because we were

9 non-Serbs. We were Bosniaks. And I believe that those people who were

10 in responsible positions were not asked and were not told why they had

11 been replaced.

12 MR. DOBBYN: Now, at this point I'd like to call up 65 ter 3687.

13 And this is in tab 7 of the Prosecution's binder of documents.

14 Q. Now, sir, I can't see you. Do you have that document in front of

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You'll see that this is a decision of the Executive Committee of

18 the Serbian municipality of Prijedor. It's dated the 4th of May, 1992.

19 And it's signed and stamped for Dr. Milan Kovacevic as president of the

20 Executive Committee. And you can see also that this --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You'll see that this decision states that Esad Mehmedagic is

23 dismissed from the post of deputy municipal public attorney and that

24 Slobodan Radulj is appointed acting municipal public attorney.

25 Do you see that?

Page 17960

1 A. Yes, I see that.

2 Q. And, sir, do you know the ethnicity of these two people?

3 A. The man who is being dismissed is a Bosniak, and the person being

4 appointed is a Serb.

5 Q. Thank you. And this man, Mr. Mehmedagic, who was dismissed, do

6 you know what subsequently happened to him?

7 A. As far as I know, and this later became official, Mehmedagic

8 ended up at Omarska and unfortunately he died. He was unable to move on

9 his own because he was very, very, short-sighted.

10 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document.

11 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01738, Your Honours.

13 MR. DOBBYN: I'd now like to move on to another document. If we

14 could call up 65 ter 3684. And this is in tab 4 of the binder.

15 Q. Sir, do you have this document in front of you now?

16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dobbyn, just one little follow-up question to

17 the witness.

18 Mr. Witness, you said that Mr. Mehmedagic unfortunately died.

19 Did he died at Omarska or did he die -- when did he die and where did he

20 die; do you know?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, based on things I

22 heard and read, he died at Omarska in 1992.

23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

24 MR. DOBBYN:

25 Q. Now, sir, the document you have in front you now is another

Page 17961

1 decision of the Executive Committee of the Serbian municipality of

2 Prijedor. This one's dated 5th of May, 1992, and appears to be signed by

3 Dr. Kovacevic. This decision dismisses Vahid Ceric from the post of

4 assistant commander for the organisation of mobilisation and personnel

5 appears.

6 Sir, first of all, did you know Vahid Ceric; and, if so, what

7 ethnicity was he?

8 A. I didn't know him very well, but I was acquainted with him, and

9 he was a Bosniak.

10 Q. Under the second paragraph of this decision,

11 Major Radmilo Zeljaja is directed to implement this decision --

12 A. Yes, paragraph 2.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, and do you know what

14 Major Zeljaja's ethnicity was and what his position was?

15 A. First of all, we are dealing with two things here: Major Zeljaja

16 was a Serb. And the second thing is that he was a member of the army.

17 And I think it's rather unusual for the Executive Committee to get

18 involved with army issues and to appoint army personnel to positions.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I'd like to tender this document now.

21 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01739, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, this document last exhibited recites a

24 decision as made pursuant to Article 78 of the rules of procedure,

25 et cetera. I cannot now recall, but I assume that there was a similar

Page 17962

1 recital in terms of the last -- the previous document. Is -- are these

2 rules of procedure of the Executive Committee part, or will become part,

3 of the law library?

4 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, actually, I don't have that

5 question -- the answer to that off the top of my head, but I can

6 certainly check on that and give you the answer at the break.

7 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

8 MR. DOBBYN: Now I'd like to move on to another document. This

9 is 65 ter 3685.

10 Q. Which is in tab 5 of the binder.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, sir, this one is similar to the previous documents, and it's

13 a decision dismissing Iso Bucan from the post of commander for logistics

14 security. And can you tell us what was Mr. Bucan's ethnicity was?

15 A. Mr. Iso Bucan was a Bosniak.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. DOBBYN: Could I tender this document, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

19 Mr. Dobbyn, I --

20 MR. DOBBYN: Yes.

21 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. Please go ahead.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01740.

23 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, I assume that these are tendered as

24 examples of a pattern of what was going on at the time. The -- is there

25 anything -- how long is this list?

Page 17963

1 MR. DOBBYN: I have -- in total, I had six of these documents.

2 There are three left, Your Honours. I can go through them if you'd like,

3 or I could seek to tender them separately later on. There is the

4 following document where he's able to offer specific information about

5 what happened to the person named in that document afterwards.

6 JUDGE HALL: Yes. Please proceed.

7 MR. DOBBYN: The next document is 65 ter 3686.

8 Q. And that's at tab 6 in the binder.

9 And, sir, in this decision Idriz Jakupovic is dismissed from the

10 post of president of the Prijedor municipal staff for the reception of

11 refugees, and he's to be replaced by Jovan Vukoja. And, again, briefly,

12 could I ask you what the ethnicity of these two individuals was?

13 A. The gentleman being dismissed is a Bosniak, and the one being

14 appointed is a Serb.

15 Q. Now, sir, do you know whether Idriz Jakupovic survived the war?

16 A. As far as I know - I wanted to add this - Idriz Jakupovic also

17 ended up at Omarska and he died there.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. DOBBYN: I'd like to tender this document, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01741, Your Honours.

22 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, as you have noted, these are examples.

23 There were a further two documents. But looking at the time, the time I

24 have left for this witness, I'll move on to the next topic.

25 JUDGE HALL: I don't know how, and if you intend to approach this

Page 17964

1 and I expect that if you do, the relevant point would be at the time of

2 submissions, but I'm curious as to whether, in terms of the documents

3 that you have tendered, there is a, from the Prosecution's point of view

4 and in terms of the reason why it's relying on these, a difference

5 between the previous documents, which purported to have been done under

6 the provisions of a particular rule, and this which doesn't show any

7 linkage.

8 It's something that perhaps you can flag to return to at the

9 appropriate stage.

10 MR. DOBBYN: I will, Your Honours.

11 Q. Now, sir, moving on to a slightly different topic.

12 After the Serb takeover in Prijedor, did you become aware of any

13 arrests taking place?

14 A. By all means, the first thing that you hear about were the

15 arrests, the arrests of acquaintances and other people who I didn't know.

16 I heard about the arrests of some of my colleagues and so on. I know

17 that I talked on the telephone with the director of the public audit

18 service and I said that we were worried. We were worried. We wanted to

19 know whether he could hide anywhere. We thought that if we didn't do

20 anything, if we hadn't done anything, if we weren't guilty, we would be

21 safe. However, that wasn't the case.

22 I mentioned the president of town planning, and he was arrested

23 and he was in a camp. Later, when I talked to the director of the

24 revenue service, I could hear something in the background. He said, Hang

25 on a minute. Somebody is ringing the door bell. I'll be back. And he

Page 17965

1 never returned. His wife talked to me on the phone, and she said that

2 the police had been there and they took her husband away.

3 These arrests were really horrific.

4 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Zecevic, you have an intervention?

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours. Page 15, line 18, I believe the

6 witness said something in addition which wasn't recorded. Along the

7 lines that this person was not guilty of anything and he wasn't even the

8 member of the party.

9 So maybe this can be clarified with the witness.

10 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

11 Mr. Dobbyn, could you have the witness confirm that he added

12 this.

13 MR. DOBBYN:

14 Q. Sir, did you hear my learned colleague's comments? When talking,

15 I believe, about the president of town planning, did you also say that he

16 was not guilty of anything and wasn't even a member of the party?

17 A. Yes. What would you like me to explain?

18 Q. First of all, could you give us the name of the president of town

19 planning?

20 A. The president of town planning was Senad Mujkanovic. He was a

21 construction engineer.

22 Q. Now, you said he was arrested and he was in a camp. Do you know

23 which camp he was in and what happened to him there?

24 A. Yes. I heard that he was at Omarska and he died there.

25 Q. You also referred to the arrest of the director of revenue

Page 17966

1 service, who was arrested while you were on the phone with him. Could

2 you tell us his name. And do you know what happened to him; where he was

3 taken and what happened?

4 A. The director of the revenue service was Mehmed Tusic. He was

5 with an economist. He was taken to Omarska and killed there.

6 Q. And, sir, did you actually witness anyone you knew being

7 arrested?

8 A. Yes. I saw the president of the municipality Muhamed Alic get

9 arrested. I saw that the police took him away.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The last name is

11 Cehajic.

12 MR. DOBBYN:

13 Q. You say you saw police take him away. Could you tell us how

14 these police were dressed, what uniforms they were wearing?

15 A. They were uniformed policemen. They were wearing blue police

16 uniforms. Not camouflage ones, but regular police uniforms.

17 Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Cehajic after he was arrested?

18 A. As far as I know, after his arrest, either immediately - I don't

19 know that - but I know that he was taken to the Omarska camp. And I know

20 that he disappeared. He was at the mine as well.

21 Q. Sorry, could you just explain that last comment. You know he

22 disappeared and he was at the mine as well. What did you mean by that

23 exactly?

24 A. When I said the mine, I meant Omarska. I know that there was a

25 camp at Omarska. And according to some eye-witnesses, he disappeared.

Page 17967

1 A few years after the war I heard that his remains were found and

2 identified.

3 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you know a man named Enes Bajramovic?

4 A. Yes. He was a colleague of mine. He used to work at the mine,

5 and he was a mechanical engineer. He was killed.

6 Q. Can you tell us what were the circumstances of his killing?

7 A. He was looking for somebody whom he could trust and who could get

8 him out. I once called his parents later on and I talked to his mother,

9 who said that somebody had called him to go out and then he was killed.

10 But later I heard that it was exactly those people whom he had found to

11 get him out that killed him. He paid them money and then they killed

12 him.

13 Q. And, sir, how did -- how did you avoid being arrested at this

14 time?

15 A. First of all, I was arrested once, and I was taken to the SJB, to

16 the police station. However, at first, I couldn't notice a system saying

17 that this man had done such and such a thing so he needed to be taken

18 into custody. There was either information by a neighbour or somebody

19 wanted to know how a certain person could live freely.

20 For example, when I saw from the window Muhamed Cehajic being led

21 away, I spent the night at my neighbour's. And I tried to hide in an

22 apartment, in a building, because this apartment was empty. However, I

23 was arrested and taken away.

24 I wanted to remove the battery from my car to be able to listen

25 to the radio and somebody saw me and informed the police. So six

Page 17968

1 policemen came in the afternoon, knocked on my door, and they said that

2 somebody had reported having seen me in town.

3 So I understood this to mean that there needed to be a reason for

4 everybody to be accused. That was in June. I believe it might have been

5 the 11th of June. And when I was at the police station I realized that

6 they had no transportation to take me to Omarska because there was a

7 funeral that day. I believe somebody from the Serbian army had been

8 killed, Karlica or somebody. So somebody from the police came and told

9 me to go home but that I wasn't to leave Prijedor because they would come

10 and get me again. So I hid in another apartment. I wasn't at home. And

11 so many people thought that I had been taken away.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Again, a part of the witness's answer was not

13 recorded in the transcript.

14 It's page 18 - 11, 12, and 13 lines. I believe the witness said:

15 "I couldn't notice a system or," and then he mentioned something about

16 the list of -- non-existing list of the people that needed to be

17 arrested.

18 So maybe you can clarify that. I think it's important.

19 MR. DOBBYN: Yes.

20 Q. Sir, you probably heard my learned colleague. If I could just

21 ask you to go back to your answer earlier on. Did you make some mention

22 of a list or a non-existent list of people that needed to be arrested?

23 And, if so, could you repeat what you said about that list.

24 A. I'll repeat. What I meant was that there wasn't anything like

25 that. There was no evidence whatsoever, there was no reason whatsoever

Page 17969

1 for the people being taken away. For example, when my colleague from

2 town planning was taken away, they said he had done such and such a thing

3 so we're taking him away. And for the other man, again, they said he had

4 done such and such a thing so we're taking him away. The reason was that

5 they were not Serbs. And then indictments were filed later on.

6 That's what I wanted to say.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, you've described being arrested and taken to the

8 Prijedor police station by some police on one occasion and not being

9 taken to Omarska because there was no police vehicle available.

10 Was this -- during the period that you were in hiding, was this

11 the only time that police confronted you?

12 A. The police also came. Later it was difficult for me to tell the

13 police apart from other forces because the police started wearing

14 camouflage uniforms. However, the police came to my apartment one time

15 to look for weapons, to see if I had any weapons, so they searched the

16 whole apartment. Even my children, who were small, they were born in

17 1982 and 1987, and they took them into a room and interrogated them.

18 They asked them whether we had any weapons. And for me I considered that

19 to be an abuse of my children. But they didn't find any weapons in my

20 apartment.

21 Q. Was there any other occasion where you were confronted by the

22 police while you were in an apartment, either your own or the apartment

23 you were hiding in?

24 A. When I was in the second apartment, there were some uniformed

25 people. Whether they were police or not, I don't know. But they

Page 17970

1 searched the building, asking whether there were any weapons there. I

2 had very bad experiences at the time, because I was alone in an abandoned

3 apartment and I hid there. One morning I heard terrible banging on the

4 door so I had to open, and when I opened, I saw two uniformed men. I

5 took out my identity card, so they saw that I wasn't the owner of the

6 apartment. One of them wanted to take me downstairs, the other one said

7 to point the rifle at my head. And he left, so I stayed there kneeling

8 with the rifle pointed at my head. After a lot of banging and doors

9 being open, I could hear a sound that I couldn't identify. And after

10 this, the second policeman ran downstairs, grabbed the man who had me at

11 gunpoint, and said to him, Let's run.

12 I went into the apartment. I didn't know what had saved me. But

13 later on I found out that what saved me was that the man who had gone

14 upstairs went to an apartment that was opened by a man who was sick so he

15 lost his patience and he shot him. He had shot the man in the leg, so he

16 started bleeding. He screamed, How could you hit him? He was one of

17 ours; he was a Serb. So he got confused and left.

18 I think that was what saved me.

19 Q. How long were you in hiding for, sir?

20 A. And one more thing - I'm sorry - the policemen came for me one

21 more time. That might have been in late July or early August. An

22 American journalist called Guttman was looking for me. So the police

23 took me to the restaurant at the Ljubija mine, and after that I returned

24 to my own apartment. That was when I saw Kovacevic and Drljaca. And

25 Kovacevic's initial reaction was to say to me, I thought you were either

Page 17971

1 dead or at Omarska. That was his reaction.

2 Q. Thank you. And just to go back to my previous question. Could

3 you tell me how long you were in hiding for?

4 A. Look, I was in hiding the whole time. The whole time I was in

5 Prijedor. Because if somebody didn't know that you existed, that was a

6 good thing. I had to hide for a long time, and it's very difficult for

7 me to talk about this. From the takeover of power until I left in late

8 1992 -- [microphone not activated] ... every day was just waiting.

9 During a walk, one of my younger daughters asked, How can we keep

10 saying this? During that whole time, nobody could know about us. Until

11 we left Bosnia. I had back pain while I was walking around.

12 Q. Now, sir, I'm interested as to exactly why you felt the need to

13 go into hiding. Obviously you described people being arrested. At that

14 time, in 1992, while in Prijedor, did you hear anything about what was

15 happening to those non-Serbs who were arrested?

16 A. Well, of course, I heard from --

17 [French on English Channel]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- did -- many were killed in the

19 camps. Many were taken away, and many were killed in one way or another.

20 They were either beaten or shot to death.

21 At any rate, the camp was where they met their death. That's why

22 it was important to get out of Prijedor.

23 I even found out about some people who were queuing at the police

24 for their papers to be able to get out. They were taken away from the

25 police station to Keraterm, and there they were killed.

Page 17972

1 Q. I'd like to just quickly touch on something you referred to a

2 while back. You had said there was a proclamation on the radio calling

3 for non-Serbs to return to work. Do you know anyone personally who

4 responded to that call?

5 A. Well, look, we were so naive and we knew we were completely

6 innocent. We were so naive that my wife told me, Why don't you respond

7 and go to your work? At least we won't have to go on hiding in this

8 apartment. But there was this man I knew who did respond. Of course, he

9 was immediately arrested, taken to the camp, and killed there.

10 Q. Can you tell the Court what his name was and what camp he was

11 taken to.

12 A. The one I mentioned now was Camil Pezo. He was killed in

13 Omarska.

14 Q. I'd like to move on to another area.

15 And, sir, can you recall an attack on Stari Grad that took place

16 in late May 1992?

17 A. At that time, I was in the apartment which gave a view to a part

18 of the old town, and it was very close to the old town. One morning, it

19 was foggy, I was woken up by the sound of shooting, and it's hard to say

20 how long it lasted, but it was not that long. When I was able to see, I

21 saw a tank with its gun trained at the old town and firing at the old

22 town. I saw the movement of vehicles and uniformed people wearing all

23 sorts of caps, red and other colours. There were all sorts of troops,

24 police, army troops, paramilitaries.

25 When the fog lifted, I was able to see also vehicles carrying

Page 17973

1 dead bodies, like pick-up trucks or flat-bed trucks carrying bodies. But

2 all the people that I could see were civilians.

3 In the old town, on the other side, I couldn't see any shooting,

4 just this tank trained at the old town. Later that same day, on the side

5 where I had a worse view, I saw buses carrying people. And I heard from

6 my neighbours from Zvornik who recognised some of the people getting off

7 the buses, I heard from them they knew some of these people and they were

8 taken later to the camp.

9 Then there were these new buildings, newly opened shops selling

10 small cars and technical goods. I saw people coming with cars to loot.

11 They were so fully loaded after the looting they were no longer able to

12 see through their own back shields. They had to peer out of the window.

13 And when the looting finished, then they started burning houses one by

14 one in the old town. I saw people going into buildings, throwing a

15 grenade in, and then getting out. And then you would see the houses

16 start to burn.

17 In one neighbourhood, I saw them shoot at the house before

18 burning it down. Also, the town mosque faired the same way. They

19 destroyed it. And our main fear was that it might collapse onto the

20 building next door.

21 Later on, some sort of delegation came and was told that the town

22 was destroyed in combat operations, but I knew it was a dirty lie,

23 because I had seen them before, burning houses down one by one. And

24 whatever was not fully destroyed by fire, they destroyed by bringing

25 construction machinery to level them.

Page 17974

1 That's how they destroyed the entire old town.

2 Q. I'd like to just explore that in a little more detail some of the

3 points that you've described there.

4 First of all, you had said that you were woken by a sound of

5 gun-fire in the morning on that day. Are you able to recall what time of

6 the morning it was that you were woken by this gun-fire?

7 A. Well, you see, that was a long time ago, but it was in the

8 morning. I don't know what time in the morning, but it was a very foggy

9 morning. I was hardly able to see out of my window towards the

10 Sana river. It's hard to say what time it was in the morning.

11 Q. It has been a long time, so I certainly understand that.

12 Are you able to say how intense this shooting that you heard was?

13 A. Well, if I had to make an estimate, and it would be very rough,

14 it lasted for about ten minutes.

15 Q. Do you recall roughly what time it was that the fog lifted?

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I'm sorry to

17 disturb, but it seems we lost the B/C/S translation here.

18 And we are back, I guess, now.

19 I would kindly invite the counsel to repeat his question.

20 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, I'll repeat that question.

21 Q. Do you recall roughly what time it was that the fog lifted?

22 A. Well, the fog lifted and it became much clearer around 8.00. I

23 was able to see outside. I think it was around that time that the fog

24 lifted.

25 Q. Now, you also described a tank that was shelling the Stari Grad

Page 17975

1 area. At the time that the tank was shelling that area, was there any

2 gun-fire going on then?

3 A. Well, from what I was able to see, it was a tank that fired. As

4 for cannons, I did not see that. So I cannot say anything positive about

5 that.

6 I just saw the tower of the mosque was shot at. Maybe those were

7 guns or Howitzers, but I could see that some sort of artillery hit the

8 mosque tower. Whether it was a hand-operated cannon or a different

9 cannon, I don't know that. But there was this tank firing at the old

10 town and hitting targets very well.

11 Q. I'm sorry, sir --

12 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Dobbyn, you have about a minute left.

13 MR. DOBBYN: Sorry, Your Honours, I believe that we had started

14 the questioning at around about quarter past. But in any case, I

15 would -- I have just a few more questions, and I would ask for a maximum

16 of another 15 minutes to finish up this topic.

17 JUDGE HALL: Maximum.

18 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you.

19 JUDGE HALL: 15. Thanks.

20 MR. DOBBYN:

21 Q. Sir, I wasn't very clear with my question.

22 You said that you were woken by shooting outside. What I'm

23 asking is that when the shelling from the tank started, was the shooting

24 still going on, or had the shooting stopped at that time?

25 A. Well, that gun-fire that woke me up was a bit more intensive than

Page 17976

1 later. In fact, later, there was no shooting of the same kind. There

2 was gun-fire from some other place that I could not see, but it was not

3 intensive fire.

4 Q. Now, when the fog cleared, did you see any Green Berets or armed

5 Muslims fleeing the old town area?

6 A. No, I could certainly not see that. I did not see anyone in

7 uniform except the army troops, the police, and the paramilitaries of the

8 Serbian army. All the people I saw on trucks and in other vehicles. In

9 fact, the dead bodies I saw were all in civilian clothes.

10 Q. Did you see any civilians in the old town area putting up any

11 armed resistance to the attack?

12 A. I did not see a single armed civilian offering any resistance.

13 Q. You mentioned looting taking place. Was it uniformed people who

14 were -- who were doing this looting, or was this civilians?

15 A. That was done by uniformed people. They went into houses and

16 shops, emptied them, looting. I don't think civilians had access to

17 those places at all.

18 Q. Were you able to tell whether those looting were army,

19 paramilitary, or police?

20 A. Well, it was very difficult for me to discern who wore what kind

21 of uniform. I could just see that there were various uniforms and even a

22 variety of berets. There were some red berets worn by men who came from

23 Banija [Realtime transcript read in error "Banja"], then there were

24 greener uniforms, or at least not so blue as the police uniforms. But

25 which units, which branch they belonged to, I could not tell.

Page 17977

1 Q. Were you able to see police uniforms, police uniforms that you

2 recognised as police uniforms in the Stari Grad area?

3 MR. ZECEVIC: I -- I believe the witness clearly explained in his

4 previous answer that he was unable to distinguish whether this -- these

5 uniforms belongs to -- belonged to whichever branch of -- or unit.

6 So I don't see the basis for this question.

7 Thank you.

8 MR. DOBBYN: Well, Your Honours, earlier on he said very

9 specifically that he has seen police in the old town area during the time

10 of this attack. I'm simply trying to clarify this for the Trial Chamber.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, after -- after Mr. Dobbyn instructed the

12 witness, I don't see what is -- what will be the value of his answer now.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE HARHOFF: The witness did say that "there were greener

15 uniforms, or at least not so blue as the police uniforms." And that

16 would suggest that perhaps in some of those operations there might have

17 been people wearing blue uniforms. And that's what the question goes to.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, I would gladly ask that the -- this

19 audiotape be verified. Because the witness himself said, I couldn't

20 distinct to which unit these people belonged to. There were different

21 kinds of uniforms, and I couldn't distinct to which kind of unit they

22 belonged.

23 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, I think the fact that there seems to

24 be some lack of clarity between the people in the courtroom themselves is

25 all the more reason to try and clarify this with the witness. We want

Page 17978

1 this to be clear for the record, and so that's why I'm exploring it

2 further.

3 JUDGE HALL: The only objections that I think that could have

4 been made is that the way that the question which prompted Mr. Zecevic's

5 rising was that it was a leading question. But that apart, clearly it is

6 a matter which should be clarified.

7 Please proceed.

8 MR. DOBBYN:

9 Q. Sir, you've described several different groups of people who were

10 in the old town area during this attack, during the looting and the

11 burning of the houses. Were you able to positively tell that there were

12 people who were police in the old town area at that time; and, if so, how

13 were you able to recognise them as police?

14 A. That they were members of the police, I could tell about certain

15 people, certain units that were either driving in police cars or who wore

16 distinctly police uniforms. But at a later stage there were so many

17 camouflage uniforms, combat and military camouflage uniforms, that I

18 could not recognise which ones were army troops or paramilitaries. Some

19 were White Eagles; others wore red berets. The police I could

20 distinguish, especially on one side, looking on one side.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, one

22 correction: Page 27, line 16, the witness mentioned the Red Berets had

23 come from Banija. "Banija." The transcript says "Banja," and it should

24 be B-a-n-i-j-a.

25 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you.

Page 17979

1 Q. Finally, sir, if we could look at 65 ter 3683. And this is in

2 tab 16 of your binder.

3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Dobbyn, is this another topic?

4 MR. DOBBYN: No. This is on the same topic, Your Honours.

5 Q. Sir, what you see in front of you is a photograph that was taken

6 on 24 September 1995. Do you recognise the area shown in this

7 photograph?

8 A. Of course I recognise this area. But this image shows the

9 outcome of what the Serb forces did. This cleared forest is an area --

10 this clearing is a place where, in other times, there used to be many,

11 many houses. This is the bridge on the Sana river; facing it, the hotel;

12 and then the old town. The whole old town was cleared.

13 MR. DOBBYN: Now, I'd just like to check whether the witness is

14 able to mark the hard copy of the photograph he has in front of him. If

15 so, I'd like him to draw a circle around the area he has said is the --

16 where the old town stood.

17 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

18 MR. DOBBYN: Perhaps if we can hear from -- oh, I see that it is

19 being marked. I'm sorry, I can see now that it is being marked.

20 Q. If you can draw the number 1 in the centre of that circled area,

21 please.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Sir, you can see the area that I believe you described as

24 Stari Grad is completely bare. Can you give an estimate of how many

25 houses were standing in that area in Stari Grad before the attack in

Page 17980

1 1992?

2 A. It was very densely populated. The houses stood very close

3 together. There was certainly a couple of thousand, several thousand

4 population, but how many exactly, it's hard to say. But there were a lot

5 of people, and the houses stood very close to one another.

6 Q. Is the building that you are hiding in and from which you

7 observed the attack shown in this photograph?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And for our sake over here, can you describe which building

10 you're referring to?

11 A. Shall I mark it?

12 Q. Yes, please. If you could mark it with the number 2.

13 MR. ZECEVIC: We are not getting the markings, Your Honour. How

14 do we understand what is the -- the number 1, what is the number 2, if we

15 don't see it? How can we cross-examine the witness on that?

16 MR. DOBBYN: After he marks it, I'll be asking him to explain

17 which building it is.

18 JUDGE HALL: And to the extent that it works, perhaps he can hold

19 it up to the camera.

20 MR. DOBBYN: I'll have him do that once I've finished with the

21 markings which he performs, Your Honours.

22 Q. Sir, if you've marked that building with number 2, can you please

23 describe which building it is in the photo so that we here in The Hague

24 will be able to know which one you're referring to.

25 A. I don't know. Shall I turn it towards the camera? Perhaps that

Page 17981

1 would be best.

2 Q. Yes, thank you. If you could do that.

3 A. Old town. Old town.

4 MR. DOBBYN: Your Honours, is that coming up? We're not seeing

5 it on ours.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house, the building where I

7 was...

8 MR. DOBBYN: Is that coming up for anyone else?

9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can he show --

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MR. DOBBYN: Can we please -- sorry, Your Honours, we don't --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the area of the old town was

13 this, all of this.

14 MR. DOBBYN: [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation

15 continues] ... Your Honours, we're seeing the witness's face at the

16 moment. Is this going out? because -- no. Okay. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the area of the old town.

18 The building from which I watched this is here.

19 MR. DOBBYN: Thank you. Now --

20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would it be a suggestion to have that marked

21 on -- on the document we have now on the screen? I mean, we clearly saw

22 what the witness indicated, so ...

23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. So that's solved.

25 MR. DOBBYN:

Page 17982

1 Q. There is just one other marking I'd like you to make, sir. And

2 this is -- you described earlier that there was a -- you saw a tank

3 shelling Stari Grad. Could you mark with the number 3 where you saw that

4 tank?

5 And then when you've finished that, if you could hold it up to

6 the camera and point that out again.

7 A. The tank was standing here, roughly. Here.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to make sure, before I ask for this

9 photograph to be admitted, that can you confirm that you have clearly

10 marked, first of all, the Stari Grad area with the number 1; the

11 apartment you were observing the attack from with the number 2; and the

12 location of the tank with the number 3.

13 A. [No verbal response]

14 MR. DOBBYN: Then, Your Honours, I would like to tender this

15 photograph with its markings.

16 JUDGE HALL: Admitted and marked.

17 MR. DOBBYN: [Previous translation continues] ... and that

18 concludes -- sorry.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit P01742.

20 MR. DOBBYN: And that concludes my questions, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HALL: Which brings us to the break.

22 We will adjourn and resume in 20 minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 17983

1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I had a follow-up question already before

2 Mr. Krgovic addressed the issue.

3 Mr. Witness, you talked about the Red Berets.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE DELVOIE: You talked about the Red Berets from Banija.

6 What did you mean by that? Who were they, as far as you know?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, those were some

8 formations from the battle-grounds in Croatia in Banija. I don't know

9 where they had originally been formed, but those were the Serbs wearing

10 red berets, at least that's what some people told me, and that they were

11 the Serb formations that had come from the battle-fields in Croatia.

12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

14 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Aleksic, if I may, before you begin your

15 cross-examination.

16 The Chamber has received a motion filed yesterday from the

17 Prosecution in respect of a witness who is to testify on Monday, seeking

18 protective measures. And we would be grateful if, by tomorrow, we could

19 have responses from the Defence to this motion.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm already -- I'm ready to give my

21 response later today. When we finish with this witness, maybe that would

22 be an appropriate time.

23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE HALL: Yes, Mr. Aleksic, you may begin.

Page 17991

1 A. No, I'm not familiar with that name at all.

2 Q. Do you know that on that same day the Kozarac TO commander became

3 a certain Mr. Madunjanin by appointment?

4 A. Where was he appointed to?

5 Q. He was appointed commander of the TO Staff of the

6 Patriotic League for the Kozarac sector.

7 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

8 When you mentioned Puharska, I just know that the -- that the

9 mosque was mined there and the Catholic church in town. That's what I

10 know about it.

11 Q. Sir, are you familiar with Muharem Handanagic [phoen], a colonel

12 from Prijedor?

13 A. If you're referring to a municipal official, he might have been

14 in the reserve. I know the man. I'm acquainted with him. He was

15 murdered in his apartment or his house.

16 Q. And do you know that he was appointed commander of the TO Staff,

17 that is, of the Patriotic League, for the entire territory of Prijedor?

18 A. No, I don't know that. As for him, I just know that he was

19 murdered in his yard, as a civilian.

20 Q. Very well. My learned friend showed you two documents which you

21 commented on. Just a moment. Those were tabs 4 and 5. The first

22 document is 65 ter 3684. That's tab 4.

23 I apologise, I know it was given an exhibit number, but I was not

24 able to write it down.

25 Do you remember that you commented on this document earlier

Page 17992

1 today?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Among others, you said that it is interesting that Major Zeljaja,

4 as a military personnel, is mentioned here is -- is interesting.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sir, it's true, is it not, that the commander for the

7 organisation of mobilisation and personnel affairs is a part of the

8 National Defence sector in the municipality?

9 A. Let me say just this: That's more of a legal issue. I know that

10 some people - there might have been two people - who were on the

11 municipal budget. They were in the reserve forces.

12 Q. As vice-president of the Executive Committee of the municipality,

13 I'm certain that you knew that there is a municipal organ in charge of

14 National Defence. That's how it was laid down in the laws of the former

15 Yugoslavia.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the people who worked in the National Defence organs and the

18 whole National Defence system was under the JNA. At least it was a part

19 of the JNA. Isn't that correct?

20 A. The Secretariat for National Defence was a part of the

21 municipality, a part of the Executive Committee. Now, as for which part

22 was in the army, I'm not certain. For those things that we were

23 uncertain about, we called a secretary who was a lawyer and who was in

24 charge of the statute and then we would act in accordance with what he

25 said.

Page 17993

1 Q. You must know that the JNA, which was the basic defence force of

2 the former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, had to give its

3 consent for the appointment of any employee in the municipal sectors of

4 National Defence. You must know about that?

5 A. I don't know about that. The Secretariat for National Defence

6 and the chief, I don't think that the army had anything to do with that.

7 Q. Tell me, Major Radmilo Zeljaja was a member of the JNA, wasn't

8 he?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. He was in the Prijedor garrison; right?

11 A. Yes. As far as I know.

12 Q. Very well. On page 18 of today's transcript -- let me just

13 paraphrase exactly what you said. I intervened because your answer

14 wasn't recorded in its entirety. You said:

15 I was arrested once, detained, that is, and I was taken to the

16 public security station, the police station. As far as I could tell, I

17 didn't notice that there was a system?

18 And then you said, Nor that there was a list according to which

19 people were taken into custody.

20 Instead - and this is what the transcript says: A man would do

21 something and then he needed to be taken into custody.

22 Let's just clarify this, because your answer wasn't recorded. If

23 I understood you correctly, you said that your impression at the time was

24 that there wasn't a system and that there wasn't a list according to

25 which people were taken into custody, and that, instead, this was done

Page 17994

1 ad hoc, or this was because a neighbour would report somebody.

2 Is that what you said?

3 A. Yes, that's exactly what I said. I would just like to add that

4 we asked why people were being taken away, and nobody could give us an

5 indictment for a person who was taken away. Accusations were later

6 fabricated.

7 Q. And how do you know that, sir? How -- where did you get that

8 information, that accusations or indictments were later fabricated?

9 A. Because we heard later from some people that people were being

10 asked about things that they knew nothing about.

11 Q. Sir, it's a fact that the first time you were taken into custody

12 you were asked by the inspectors at the police station whether it was

13 true that on that day you were walking around town wearing a uniform.

14 Wasn't that the question they asked you?

15 A. Yes. I was accused of having been seen in town in a uniform.

16 And I didn't dare walk around town in any sort of clothing, let alone a

17 uniform. That was just a fabrication. Somebody had called in and said

18 that I was seen in a uniform. That was a fabrication; it was a lie.

19 Q. I agree that it's a lie. I'm not saying that you were walking

20 around Prijedor in a uniform. It would never cross my mind to say

21 something like that.

22 What I'm asking you is: Your testimony is that somebody called

23 the police station and said, Such and such a person - I don't want to

24 mention a name - was seen today walking around Prijedor wearing a

25 uniform. Is that what you're trying to say?

Page 17995

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The second time, when you had an incident with some uniformed

3 people and you don't know whether they were policemen but you assumed

4 that they were, was when you opened your front door. Do you remember you

5 talked about this? And then a weapon was pointed at your head.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And on that occasion, when you showed your identity card, they

8 were able to see that you were neither the owner of the apartment nor did

9 you have residence at that address. That's why they pointed the weapon

10 at you.

11 A. Yes. First of all, they could see that it wasn't a Serbian name;

12 and, second of all, they could see that my last name didn't match the

13 name on the door.

14 Q. Sir, this was in July and August, if I remember your testimony

15 correctly.

16 A. No. As for that second apartment, I don't know when that was. I

17 just know that it happened in that second apartment.

18 Q. I believe that earlier today you said that this was in July or

19 August.

20 A. No. Because in July or August I was taken away by the police,

21 when -- when Guttman wanted to see me. That was earlier.

22 Q. So this event was in June or July; is that correct?

23 A. It must -- it might have been June.

24 Q. Sir, you will agree with me that in both these cases - when you

25 were taken into custody to the police station and the second time, when