Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21634

 1                           Wednesday, 1 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

10     everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  For the Prosecution, I'm

12     Tom Hannis, along with Gerry Dobbyn, Marina Vilova, and Crispian Smith.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for Stanisic Defence

15     this morning.  Thank you.

16             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

17     Aleksandar Aleksic representing Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             And if there are no preliminary matters, could the usher please

20     escort the witness to the stand.

21             Mr. Hannis, while the witness is on his way in, now that you have

22     made a start, what do you expect -- how much longer do you expect that

23     you would be?

24             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, taking into account that I feel

25     like I need to impose at lease a half-hour sanction on myself for the

Page 21635

 1     delay while the witness read a document yesterday and therefore reducing

 2     my time from 20 to 19 and a half hours, I'm hoping that I can be finished

 3     on Thursday.  But I'll have a better idea at the end of the day.  But I

 4     was hoping I could be done on Thursday near the end of the day, if not

 5     the end of the day.  Yes, tomorrow.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             And if that happens, Mr. Zecevic, do you have a witness who would

 8     be available for Friday?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, depending on what time will Mr. Hannis finish

10     his cross-examination, I will have some re-direct.  At this point I can't

11     say how much.  But, Your Honours, we will not have another witness for

12     Friday.  Our next witness is scheduled for Monday next week.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  If the record can show that Mr. Cvijetic joined the

16     Stanisic Defence.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Andan, good morning to you.  I remind you,

18     before Mr. Hannis continues his cross-examination, that you're still on

19     your oath.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             I'd like to resume by showing the witness Exhibit 1D547.  We were

22     looking at this yesterday.  I think it's Prosecution tab 83.

23                           WITNESS: DRAGOMIR ANDAN [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

Page 21636

 1        Q.   While that's coming up, Mr. Andan, I just wanted to ask you,

 2     before I forgot, about certain persons that you will have known.

 3     Cedo Kljajic, Dragan Kijac, and Tomo Kovac, do you know, are all three of

 4     those men still alive?

 5        A.   First of all, good morning.

 6             As far as I know, they are alive.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we were looking at this document dated

 8     2nd of June.  This was a collegium meeting in the SJB in Brcko.  In

 9     regard to this meeting, did you send any written report about this to

10     Mr. Jesuric [Realtime transcript read in error "Jasarevic"] or to MUP

11     headquarters or anyone?

12        A.   There is a mistake again.  It's not "Jasarevic."  You probably

13     meant "Jesuric."

14        Q.   Yes, I did.  And that's what I tried to say, but maybe my English

15     pronunciation of it is not coming across very well for the interpreters.

16     Predrag Jesuric is who I was referring to.

17             And my question is:  Did you send a report to him or to anyone

18     else at the CSB or MUP headquarters about this meeting in Brcko?

19        A.   Of course.  Normally, the procedure for such a meeting or

20     supervisory inspection is to send a copy of the report to the

21     Ministry of the Interior.  Another copy goes to the chief of the security

22     services centre in Bijeljina.

23        Q.   Who organised this meeting?

24        A.   On behalf of the minister of the interior, I received

25     instructions from Pale to carry out the supervisory inspection and

Page 21637

 1     provide all indispensable assistance in order to improve the situation in

 2     the police station in Brcko, which means that I organised this meeting in

 3     order to discuss some elementary topics.  And it was necessary to inform

 4     everybody with their rights and duties and tasks.  I believe that this

 5     memo contains a brief outline of all the tasks of the crime prevention

 6     service, of the deputy, of the assistants, and everybody else in the

 7     police station.

 8        Q.   I think you told us yesterday that there were sort of two sorts

 9     of inspections.  One would be what I would describe as a surprise or a

10     spot inspection where you showed up unannounced, and the other was an

11     inspection where you gave notice ahead of time that, We're coming to your

12     station for an inspection; is that correct?  Were those two kinds of

13     inspections that were done?

14        A.   Yes, that's how it was before the war.

15        Q.   And this inspection, was this a surprise inspection or is this

16     one where Mr. Veselic in Brcko knew you were coming ahead of time?

17        A.   I think he knew that I was going to come, so it was an announced

18     inspection.

19        Q.   And in regards to the meeting, who set the agenda and who made

20     the assignments that we see here?  Was that the chief or was that you or

21     was that done in co-ordination between the two of you?

22        A.   We had a preparatory meeting before this one.  I don't have the

23     power to appoint managers, not even to nominate them.  This is within the

24     power of the chief of the public security station.  So we had a

25     preparatory meeting.  Since I already knew the structure of the personnel

Page 21638

 1     in that police station, I made some suggestions.  And I have to say that

 2     the chief, Mr. Veselic, accepted everything that I suggested to him.  So

 3     I did not have any legal authority to choose his associates.  It was

 4     within his powers.  But I made suggestions that he accepted.

 5        Q.   When you were talking about the situation in Brcko, I think on

 6     Friday at page 21416, you he mentioned that one of the problems that

 7     related to Brcko was that it was a rich area, it was a port area, and so

 8     the paramilitaries who were interested in looting saw that as a good

 9     target.  And you mentioned, for example, 150 trucks of

10     Marlboro cigarettes were taken away from the harbour.

11             Do you know what or which paramilitary group was involved in

12     that?

13        A.   It is true that I stated this.  That's what I heard at the time.

14     Two formations were dominant in the area, Arkan's forces and the forces

15     of Major Mauzer.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Who or what was the municipal authority in Brcko at

17     the time?  I mean, was it the Municipal Assembly or was it functioning as

18     a Crisis Staff or a War Presidency?  Do you recall what it was when you

19     were there that first time?

20        A.   I can't quite decide between the Crisis Staff and the

21     War Presidency, but, all right, I'm going to choose the second option; it

22     was the Crisis Staff.  I remember that the president of the Crisis Staff

23     was a physician.  I can't remember his name.  And then there was also

24     Mr. Ristanovic, I think he was mentioned here already, and he performed

25     the function of the president of the Executive Board.  And I think that

Page 21639

 1     that was the way that the authorities functioned.

 2             However, during that time, I and Mr. Veselic had more contacts

 3     with Mr. Ristanovic.

 4        Q.   I want to ask you, I believe the individual you're talking about

 5     is probably Djordje Ristanic.  Does that name ring a bell?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Djordje Ristanic.

 7        Q.   Did you -- did you have a chance to meet with him personally and

 8     talk to him about the situation in Brcko and what had gone on in Brcko

 9     after the bridges were blown up?

10        A.   Yes.  As I have already stated, I had the opportunity to speak to

11     Mr. Djordje two or three times.  The topic of our conversation was not

12     the destruction of the bridges in Brcko.  The basic purpose of the

13     conversation was to return the police forces from the front line, to

14     reinforce the town with those forces, and to establish public order in

15     town.  We also needed to adapt the functioning of the police station to

16     the prevailing situation in Brcko.

17             Mr. Veselic informed him about the situation.  He introduced me

18     as a man who had arrived on behalf of the Secretariat of the Interior in

19     order to provide assistance with regard to the establishment of the

20     organs of the police station.  I think at that first meeting I did not

21     say anything.  Later on we spoke, I made my suggestions about what needed

22     to be done to consolidate the situation.

23        Q.   You mentioned at page 21420 that one of the first things that you

24     did was request from the municipal authorities to introduce a curfew, so

25     was that the Crisis Staff or the War Presidency through whom you

Page 21640

 1     requested and got a curfew set up in Brcko?

 2        A.   I believe that we first agreed that the members of the police

 3     should be withdrawn from the front line.  The local authorities supported

 4     this request before the military.  And at that meeting with the

 5     representatives of the military authorities, we managed to agree that

 6     about 170 people should be withdrawn from the front line.  That's when we

 7     began to divide the area of the station in sub-areas and patrol sectors,

 8     and we also formed an intervention platoon.  So those were all

 9     preparatory measures.  And after that we requested the introduction of a

10     curfew.  I think that was the sequence of events.

11             We could not request the curfew immediately, before we had the

12     forces at our disposal who would then control the area during the curfew.

13     We also requested -- to be honest, I'm not sure whether we requested this

14     from the War Presidency or the Crisis Staff, but we sent a formal request

15     asking for their support and their approval so that we could advertise in

16     the media that a curfew would be introduced with the appropriate hours.

17        Q.   I want to confirm with you, then:  It's your view that the

18     municipal authority, whether that's the Assembly or the Crisis Staff or

19     the War Presidency, was the body that had the authority to establish a

20     curfew and not you in the police; is that right?  That was something

21     within their purview?

22        A.   You see, we made a proposal and that proposal was accepted.  We

23     wanted to obtain the approval of the political authorities for

24     introduction of this particular measure.  We received the approval and

25     introduced the measure, and then we announced it in the media.

Page 21641

 1        Q.   And the police were the ones who implemented it; right?  The

 2     curfew?

 3        A.   That is correct.  Maybe I skipped a detail.  We also had to agree

 4     on this particular measure with the representatives of the military

 5     authorities.  We had to inform them that everybody would be checked

 6     except ambulances, police cars, military police; in other words, persons

 7     and institutions who could be legally found in breach of the curfew

 8     without any consequences.

 9        Q.   And to your knowledge, nothing wrong or improper or illegal or in

10     violation of the Law on Internal Affairs for you as the police to enforce

11     that curfew established by the municipal authorities?

12        A.   As far as I can remember, the regulations that were in force at

13     the time, I think there was nothing unlawful.

14        Q.   You mentioned that in Brcko at the SJB at the time there was just

15     one person basically doing the job of both heading national security and

16     the crime service.  Did I understand your answer right about that?

17        A.   Yes, you understood me correctly.  Mr. Gavrilovic is brother of a

18     colleague of mine from Sarajevo, Mr. Velavic [phoen].  I can't remember

19     his first name, but I know that he is brother of Vojo Gavrilovic.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you also talk with him about the situation in

21     Brcko in the preceding weeks or month before you got there at the

22     beginning of June?

23        A.   If I understood you correctly, you're asking me whether I spoke

24     to him when I was there, in the field?  Yes, I spoke to him.  He was

25     member of the collegium of the chief of the police station, so it was

Page 21642

 1     quite logical that I would speak to the person who heads the crime

 2     prevention service.  It's a fact.  He was also at the head of the

 3     national security.

 4        Q.   At page 21428, Mr. Zecevic asked you if the name Goran Jelisic

 5     rang a bell, and you said you never met this person but you knew the name

 6     of Goran Jelisic, nicknamed Adolf, and that's what the top personnel at

 7     the Brcko police station said to me.

 8             The top personnel, you're referring to Mr. Veselic and who else,

 9     if you remember, that you might have heard about Jelisic from?  Did

10     Mr. Gavrilovic tell you about him?

11        A.   I think that you misspoke.  It's not that I knew of the name of

12     Goran Jelisic.  In Brcko it was the first time that I heard about

13     Goran Jelisic, nicknamed Adolf.  Mr. Gavrilovic mentioned the name, and

14     he said that this person is somebody who sows the fear among the

15     employees of the police because he is unable to say good morning without

16     drawing a gun.  He wasn't of sound mind.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe part of the witness's answer was not

18     recorded.  Namely, Mr. -- when he was talking what Mr. Gavrilovic told to

19     him, he was mentioning the state of mind of this person.  Perhaps you can

20     clarify.

21             MR. HANNIS:

22        Q.   Witness, you heard what Mr. Zecevic said, can you amplify

23     anything about that?

24        A.   Yes.  Mr. Gavrilovic told me that he was mentally incompetent.

25     Or, to put it simple, he was crazy and everybody was afraid of him.  He

Page 21643

 1     cannot say good morning without shooting.  It was enough for somebody to

 2     look askance at him and he would shoot at that person.  Everybody was

 3     afraid of him in Brcko.  Even policemen avoid him.

 4        Q.   And did you also hear about Mr. Jelisic from chief Veselic and/or

 5     from Djordje Ristanic?

 6        A.   I believe I did not speak to them about this particular topic.

 7     Especially not with Djordje Ristanic.

 8        Q.   Whoever you spoke to, were you not told that Mr. Jelisic had

 9     committed dozens of murders in Brcko right in front of the police

10     station, some of them, some in the town park, some on the road down to

11     the river, and many at Luka?  Did you not hear about that?

12        A.   Whether they were not quite prepared to tell me something like

13     that, whether I did not gain their confidence, I wouldn't know.  I was

14     simply told that he committed some murders in the area of the Brcko

15     municipality, but I was not told any details about where or how it

16     happened.  Yes, it was said that he committed some murders of Muslims.

17             As I have already stated, they told me that he was mentally

18     incompetent and that the policemen were afraid of him as well.  So I knew

19     no details.  You have to bear in mind the fact that I had just arrived

20     there, so I assume that they did not want to entrust me with some of the

21     things that they may have known.

22        Q.   But one of the purposes of your visit is to help them get the

23     police station up and functioning like a police station should; right?

24        A.   I don't think you're right in the first part of your question.  I

25     went there to set up some structures in the police station, to

Page 21644

 1     consolidate the situation, to see to it that executives are appointed and

 2     that they be briefly instructed as to their duties, and that they were to

 3     do all the work that they were duty-bound to do, to process whatever

 4     hadn't been processed and put to practical use all the information and

 5     intelligence that they had gathered.  I wasn't there to tell them, You'll

 6     do this or that; I was just there to enable them to do what they were

 7     duty-bound to do.  I pointed out some problems that were very obvious and

 8     just told them how to deal with them.

 9        Q.   But wouldn't you agree with me one of the primary functions or

10     one of the primary duties of the police in a municipality is to ensure

11     public peace and order and protect the lives of the citizens; right?

12        A.   Yes, that is why I nominated Petar Djokic for the position of

13     commander of the police station, because I knew that he was a police

14     officer who had graduated from a secondary police school in Sarajevo and

15     from a law school in Belgrade.  I insisted and knew that the dispatcher

16     did not empower me to stay there and take up a position at the police

17     station but, rather, to give expert assistance.  I nominated some

18     professionals to Mr. Veselic, and as you said law and order had it been

19     disrupted so it was necessary to stand up against crime and other

20     negative occurrences in the municipality.

21        Q.   Had anyone at that time told you that Mr. Jelisic was looking and

22     acting like a policeman, wearing a uniform and telling people he was a

23     policeman?  Did you know that at the time?

24        A.   No, I did not know that.

25        Q.   Have you never seen the photographs published of Mr. Jelisic in a

Page 21645

 1     police uniform executing a man on the street in Brcko?  Did you ever see

 2     any of those photos that were internationally published?

 3        A.   Yes, I was able to see those.  I can't deny that.

 4        Q.   Do you recall when you first saw them?  What year?

 5        A.   At sometime after the war I saw the pictures in the media.  It

 6     may have been media that are published in the Federation of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I suppose that's where I saw them.

 8        Q.   Did you give the newly-appointed commander Mr. Djokic any advice

 9     or suggestions on what he might do to deal with this serious public peace

10     problem named Mr. Jelisic?

11        A.   It's probably a mistaken interpretation again; Mr. Djokic was not

12     the komandant but the commander of the police station.

13             But I'm sure that I told him in general terms that all criminal

14     activities of persons that were rampaging in Brcko must be -- must be --

15     we must put an end to them, to that.  I told Mr. Djokic as much in the

16     preparatory meeting.

17        Q.   You were a professional policeman.  You told us earlier that you

18     were an operative by nature.  These dozens or scores of murders done by

19     Mr. Jelisic, it all happened within the preceding three or four weeks

20     before you arrived.  Did no one bring this to your attention in any more

21     detail than you've described so far?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, if Mr. Hannis can provide the reference

23     or the basis for the question that the murders happened between last

24     three or four weeks.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Well, that would be in the judgement, Mr. Jelisic's

Page 21646

 1     conviction here in this building, or the testimony of Mr. Gasi, or other

 2     witnesses from Brcko that testified in this case.  I don't have the page

 3     cite at the moment, but I can indicate the sources.

 4        Q.   Do you remember my question, sir?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.  But given my previous answer, I can repeat that I

 6     still did not enjoy the trust of the executives there and couldn't speak

 7     more concretely about that topic.  And I must point out the following:

 8     In spite of the good intentions of Mr. Djokic who was the commander of

 9     the police station and undoubtedly at the time was the right man for the

10     position, and in my opinion he would have resolved many things in Brcko,

11     he was replaced following an attack on the police station because the

12     persons who had attacked the station demanded that he be replaced because

13     he was one of those who had fled the police station when the bridges were

14     blown up and did not return for a while.

15             So with all due respect, I cannot give -- cannot provide an

16     answer to your question that would satisfy you.

17        Q.   No, if that's what you know, I'm satisfied with your answer.

18             Did any of these people, Mr. Ristanic or Mr. Veselic or

19     Mr. Gavrilovic or anybody you talked to during your first visit to Brcko,

20     tell you about the non-Serb civilians who were being detained down in the

21     warehouses in the area called Luka, down by the river just a short

22     distance from the police station?  Did you know about that?

23        A.   Even your previous question and this question here, in a reply to

24     both I can say that it would be logical to expect that the chief of the

25     crime enforcement service knows or has the most information.  He should

Page 21647

 1     have known much more than I who had just parachuted in, as it were.

 2             There was a reception centre, as they called it at the time, for

 3     Muslims, and I was told that the army controlled that centre.  I didn't

 4     have a chance to speak to the military authorities.  Now, I don't want

 5     you to think that I'm now defending myself, because there's no reason.

 6     The only reason is the fact that I was going to stay in Brcko very

 7     briefly.

 8        Q.   But I'm not sure you answered my question.  Did anyone tell you

 9     about that, that non-Serb civilians were being kept in the warehouses in

10     Luka down by the river?  Did you know about that at the time?

11        A.   I don't know if I received adequate interpretation or whether my

12     answer was interpreted correctly, but I said that Mr. Gavrilovic informed

13     me of that case, that Muslims were being held in the harbour, that there

14     was this reception centre there, and that the army had control over that.

15     And I said that I didn't have an opportunity to speak to the military

16     authorities about that.

17        Q.   And I take it that you never personally went down to Luka in

18     June 1992 when you were there on this first visit to Brcko?

19        A.   No, not in June.  And as far as I remember, not later on during

20     the war either.

21        Q.   Did you hear about or did anybody among the people we've talked

22     about before mention to you another individual in Brcko who had committed

23     some murders of civilians, and this person was named Ranko Cesic?  Did

24     you ever hear the name Ranko Cesic?

25        A.   No, I didn't.

Page 21648

 1        Q.   Ranko Cesic at the beginning of the war was a member of the

 2     Territorial Defence, but by a decision on the 15th of May, 1992, he

 3     became a member of the reserve police of the MUP.  And according to

 4     witness Isak Gasi, who's testified here, he shot and killed two persons

 5     down at Luka between the 1st and 6th of June.  Did you not hear about

 6     that?

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm terribly sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt the

 8     answer of the witness, I'm just unclear about which decision of the

 9     15th of May, 1992, Mr. Hannis is talking about.

10             MR. HANNIS:  It's not a document I have in evidence in this case.

11     It's a document that was part of the court file in the Ranko Cesic case.

12     It was a document submitted by Defence counsel in their brief --

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  But with all due respect --

14             MR. HANNIS:  It's a finding -- it's a finding by Judge Orie and

15     the Trial Chamber that Mr. Cesic was a member of the police from the

16     15th of May, 1992.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  But with all due respect, Mr. Hannis, isn't it a

18     fact that you had the opportunity to offer the adjudicated facts from the

19     other trials?  If that adjudicated fact was not offered, I don't think

20     that you should be allowed to pursue this kind of questions and then and

21     actually making submissions in a court about the facts that we don't know

22     anything about.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'm entitled to ask any question of

24     this witness I want if I have a good-faith basis for asking the question

25     and it pertains to something relevant in this case.  And it's my position

Page 21649

 1     that this is something that this witness may or may not have known about

 2     but it's certainly something that should have come to the attention of

 3     the police, and I don't think that's a reason to bar me from asking the

 4     question because we didn't offer it as an adjudicated fact.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  I would have thought, though, Mr. Hannis, that the

 6     rationale behind the Rule permitting the reception of adjudicated facts

 7     meant that if, as Mr. Zecevic has said, a fact on which you rely was not

 8     so admitted, then the -- whereas you wouldn't be barred from asking the

 9     question, that the -- you would have to, as a preliminary matter, find

10     out whether the witness accepts the premise on the basis of which you

11     frame the question.  Is there any alternative approach?

12             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, I guess I disagree with you.  I

13     think I'm permitted to ask the question.  I have to live with his answer.

14     And if his answer is he doesn't know or he disagrees or he says that's

15     not true, then I'm faced with the dilemma of, okay, that's what the

16     evidence is and I have to live with it, or I make an application to the

17     Court to either seek to call additional evidence or propose an

18     adjudicated fact, et cetera.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, but if you pose the question without laying a

20     foundation, aren't you caught by the Rule that your question assumes fact

21     not in evidence in this case?

22             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I think we're entitled to ask questions

23     that may assume facts not in the case yet because when we start out on

24     day one, we have no facts in the case.  And, I'm sorry, maybe I'm

25     misunderstanding your question, but I think it's entirely proper for me

Page 21650

 1     to ask a question for which I have a foundation and good faith to believe

 2     that there's support for and see what this witness knows about it.

 3             You can't find that Ranko Cesic was a member of the police in

 4     May 1992 based on my question, and I'm not asking you to do that at this

 5     point.  I would have to offer some further proof of it, but I'm entitled

 6     to ask the witness the question.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, you may proceed.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Andan, do you recall my question?

11        A.   I kindly ask you to repeat.

12        Q.   Did you know or did you hear about Ranko Cesic, who was at the

13     time a member of the reserve police of the MUP, allegedly shot and killed

14     two persons down at Luka camp between the 1st and 6th of June?  Did you

15     know about that or hear about it?

16        A.   I didn't know that he was a reserve police member, nor did I find

17     out during my stay or did I ever come across that name.  But I must tell

18     you something else.  In one of my reports from Brcko, I wrote that we

19     must get rid of self-styled inspectors, investigators, commanders, and

20     such as soon as possible.  That is, in other words, persons who had given

21     themselves titles by breaking into the police station in Brcko and taking

22     uniforms so that individuals put some rank insignia on these uniforms and

23     called themselves commanders and what have you.  That's what I mentioned

24     in one of my reports to the MUP.

25             I did not see a list of the reserve police force nor was I

Page 21651

 1     familiar with the name of Ranko Cesic.  Actually, I think I only heard it

 2     for the first time today from you.

 3        Q.   I guess you've partially answered that.  As an inspector doing

 4     one of these inspections, would it be in the normal course for you to

 5     look at a list of the employees, both active duty and reserve, of the

 6     station that you're inspecting, not only to see who's working there, but

 7     how many?  Is that something you normally do, and did you do that in this

 8     case?

 9        A.   Yes, that is usual practice.  But I had a common list of the

10     reserve police members who were Serbs, Muslims or Bosniaks, and Croats.

11     I don't think that at the time there was an integrated list.  I explained

12     how we screened these people, but at that moment I had no such list.  It

13     is logical for a police inspector to take a look at the list of employees

14     and the list of the reserve force respectively.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that when the curfew was established

16     that you had consulted with the military about that; correct?  Is that

17     right?

18        A.   I had to reach some kind of agreement with them because otherwise

19     there would be an overlapping of jurisdiction.

20        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall who you dealt with from the military, by

21     rank and name?

22        A.   I remember that the man's first name was Pavle but I for get his

23     last name.  He was a lieutenant-colonel.  And I remember major or captain

24     1st class or possibly Captain Sehovac.  We went to the military command

25     on several occasions and spoke to them about the situation in the town of

Page 21652

 1     Brcko.

 2        Q.   Did you ever have any conversation with any of them about the

 3     so-called reception centre at Luka?

 4        A.   No, I didn't speak about that.  I spoke about security,

 5     establishing police structures at the station, and the authority that

 6     originated from that.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let's leave Brcko for a bit and go to Bijeljina.  At

 8     page 21436 on Friday, you talked about the situation in Bijeljina and the

 9     two paramilitary formations that were causing a lot of the problems, that

10     being Mauzer's Group.  I think they were called the Panthers; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   Now, help me with this:  I've heard references and seen in

14     documents references to a group called the Serb Volunteer Guard in

15     Bijeljina.  Who were they?

16        A.   Yes, there's mention of them, and I also made a note of that.

17     Those guys, those persons, were inhabitants of Bijeljina municipality.

18     They were led by Chetnik Vojvoda Blagojevic, but we didn't have as many

19     problems with that group as with the Panthers.  It's a unit of the

20     Serb Radical Party which was led by Mirko Blagojevic, and all members of

21     that unit hailed from Bijeljina municipality.

22        Q.   Now, we've heard evidence about Arkan's Men coming to Bijeljina

23     at the very beginning of April 1992.  Were they ever referred to by any

24     term other than Arkan's Tigers or Arkan's Men?  Were they ever referred

25     to as this Serb Guard or the Volunteer Guard, do you know?

Page 21653

 1        A.   I think that at that time they called themselves the

 2     Serb Volunteer Guard.  And I'm speaking about Arkan's forces that were

 3     present in Bijeljina at the beginning of the war.

 4        Q.   And what was the relationship, if any, that you know about

 5     between Mauzer's Group and Arkan's Men?  Were they in competition with

 6     each other, were they co-operating with each other?  What do you know

 7     about that?

 8        A.   I'll begin with a short introduction, so I hope you won't mind a

 9     longer answer.

10             At that time the Bijeljina Police Station was exposed to strong

11     influence by Arkan's Group.  Through operative work we learned that they

12     had unlawfully taken a large quantity of weapons, both long-barrelled and

13     short-barrelled weapons, that had been confiscated from Muslims.  They

14     were registering these weapons at the Bijeljina Police Station without

15     anybody interfering.  They were taking driving licences, traffic permits,

16     weapons permits from the police station, even blank forms for such

17     licences and permits.

18             I think that there was a link between the Serb Volunteer Guard

19     commanded by Arkan and the Panthers commanded by Ljubisa Savic, also

20     known as Mauzer.  It was my conclusion that I drew from various

21     conversations and interviews that they were in direct communication.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Could we show the witness Exhibit 1D549.  It's a

24     Defence tab, 31 I believe.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  The usher please hand over to the witness the

Page 21654

 1     binder.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, which tab number?

 4             MR. HANNIS:

 5        Q.   It's tab 31, I believe.

 6             Do you recall seeing this one before, when you testified on

 7     Friday?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Could we go to the next page in both English and

10     B/C/S.  All right.  I think I need to see the last page.  I apologise.

11     Yes.

12        Q.   When you spoke about this on Friday, you said, "We are stating

13     here we will continue the processing of these suspects and submit

14     criminal reports ..."  I didn't see any place in the document where it

15     said you were going to submit criminal reports.  Do you see that

16     anywhere, and if so, can you point it out to me?

17        A.   Yes, I think that the last sentence says that.  If you wish, I

18     will read it out to you.  "The service will intensify its work on this

19     subject matter and will consistently enforce all the regulations issued

20     by the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian Republic of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina."  This is information stating what had been done

22     previously.  This went to the crime service, the crime service

23     interviewed the persons involved, collected the evidence, and, along with

24     a criminal report, handed all of this over to the Prosecutor's Office.

25        Q.   Okay.  I see that what you're referring to.  I didn't know if

Page 21655

 1     that was meant to include submitting criminal reports, as you stated.

 2             I have a question.  Some of the individuals that were arrested

 3     here are identified as being members of what's translated in the English

 4     copy as members of the National Guard or the Serb National Guard.  Now,

 5     is that the Territorial Defence or is that the Serb Volunteer Guard or is

 6     this yet some third entity?

 7        A.   Perhaps the formulation in this document was not quite right, but

 8     I'll explain it to you in the following way:  These were members of the

 9     Volunteer Guard of Mauzer, Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, that is, and I know

10     that after bringing these persons in, we also had some protestors in

11     front of the police station, Mr. Mauzer demonstrated force, and I know

12     that at some session in the Municipal Assembly the representatives of the

13     authorities were asked to disallow myself and Mr. Kljajic to stay in the

14     territory of Bijeljina.  Mr. Mauzer asked for that.  He said that we were

15     allegedly searching innocent Serb civilians and taking away their goods.

16             So these were members of the Serb Volunteer Guard or, rather, the

17     Panthers of Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer.

18        Q.   Thank you for that.

19             You told us on Friday about when you and Mico Davidovic and

20     others had gone to the Mauzer's warehouse and found the three Muslim

21     brothers that were being kept there.  Do you recall Judge Harhoff asked

22     you whether you had arrested Mauzer and you kind of laughed and gave an

23     explanation.  I have one question: Did you ever call the military and

24     report to them about Mr. Mauzer, because, to the extent that he or his

25     unit may have been under the control of the army, it might have been a

Page 21656

 1     matter for the military or the military police?  Did you ever contact

 2     them about doing something on their own or jointly with you about

 3     Mr. Mauzer and his Panthers?

 4        A.   Yes, of course.  I don't want to put myself in the forefront of

 5     everything that was happening, but Mr. Mico Davidovic several times at

 6     our meetings that were usually held in the evening hours at the command

 7     of the Eastern Bosnia Corps that was in the territory of Obrijez, I think

 8     that's the name of the place where they were stationed, well,

 9     Mr. Davidovic asked Colonel Ilic several times that Mauzer's formation or

10     unit be placed under the control of the military.

11             We kept receiving promises that they would do that quickly, that

12     we should be patient a bit, and that they would come to the barracks.  As

13     a matter of fact, we asked for them to be relocated.  I think that they

14     were also staying at Obrijez, opposite the gasoline station that is on

15     the road to Ugljevik.  We asked that they be relocated from there, from

16     that building, that is, that they be transferred to the Bijeljina

17     barracks, and by virtue of that, by transferring to the Bijeljina

18     barracks or any other barracks, they would be under the control of the

19     military.  We received several promises to that effect; however, they

20     were not honoured all the way up to the end of the war.

21             So our mission was accomplished in Bijeljina in August, when

22     Mr. Davidovic was withdrawn to the federal SUP and when I was removed,

23     but Mauzer stayed on the very same unit with the same insignia all the

24     way up until the end of the war.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Andan.  You told us on Friday, at page 21445, in

Page 21657

 1     answering Judge Harhoff's question, about that, that there was an

 2     occasion where you actually had detained Mauzer briefly in custody and

 3     then his unit set up outside the police station with tanks and weapons,

 4     that there was sort of a stand off until the municipal authorities

 5     arrived and spoke with Mr. Kljajic, Mr. Davidovic, and you.  And you

 6     said: "... found a Solomonic solution to release Mauzer."

 7             Who were the municipal authorities who came and spoke with you

 8     before this release took place?  Do you remember the names, how many?

 9        A.   Yes, I remember a particular last name, again I don't know the

10     first name.  It's a certain Mr. Micic.  I don't know what his position

11     was in Bijeljina, but he did come to the police station and he talked to

12     Mr. Kljajic, Davidovic, and myself.  And he told us what his views were

13     and also, most probably, well, yes, the opinion of the municipal

14     authorities in Bijeljina.

15             According to the rules, Mr. Mauzer was supposed to be handed over

16     to the office of the prosecutor along with a criminal report, and we

17     could have resolved the issue in that way; however, a joint solution was

18     found, I mean, in terms of the hierarchy involved, Mr. Kljajic and

19     Mr. Micic.  We decided that Mauzer then be released from custody.  If you

20     remember, I said then that we had taken away his fire-arms or, rather, a

21     Heckler Koch with a silencer.  We did not return that to him on that

22     occasion.  When I was removed, I returned that.  I think that is

23     contained in the documentation.  But Mr. Micic was the one who mediated

24     with regard to this release of Mauzer's.

25        Q.   Okay.  Was he the only one or was there anyone else from the

Page 21658

 1     civilian authorities?

 2        A.   There was another man.  I'm trying to remember his name.  I know

 3     he's a doctor, and right now I do not seem to be able to recall his last

 4     name.  He was a specialist, a psychiatrist.  I think that the two of them

 5     then came to the police station, Mr. Micic and this doctor.  I think that

 6     at the time his standing was pretty good in the top echelons of the SDS.

 7     According to some unverified information, he was even a member of the

 8     Main Board of the SDS.  I'm referring to that doctor, but I cannot recall

 9     right now.  I can even remember his face, and I know what the man did,

10     but I simply cannot remember his last name.

11             It's Dr. Novakovic, I think.  Dr. Novakovic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And as you say, as far as you know, no criminal

13     charges were filed, no -- Prosecution had no conviction of Mr. Mauzer or

14     any of his Panthers for crimes committed in 1992; is that right?

15        A.   At the time when we were there, I don't know -- well, please,

16     bear in mind that there were two possibilities.  Filing a criminal report

17     or criminal charges, or sending a report to the prosecutor.  That meant

18     that the prosecutor on the basis of our report could start an

19     investigation or redact all of this altogether.  I do not rule out that

20     possibility that it was this milder form of a report being sent to the

21     prosecutor.  But please don't take my word for any of this.  I think that

22     what I have already told you is exactly as things happened at that point

23     in time, although we most sincerely, particularly both Mr. Davidovic and

24     I, were against that measure, that is to say, against releasing Mauzer

25     from custody.

Page 21659

 1             Perhaps the wisest solution was found, perhaps the best

 2     compromise would have been found, or, rather, if our option had been

 3     opted for, then perhaps fire-arms would have been used and that would

 4     have caused additional problems.

 5        Q.   But if there is no entry in the appropriate log-book from

 6     Bijeljina about Mauzer or the Panthers, then that would mean no criminal

 7     report was filed; right?  Otherwise it would appear; there would be some

 8     entry in the appropriate log-book.  And I can't remember what the

 9     abbreviation or the acronym is for that log-book.  I think it's K

10     something.

11        A.   Did you have an opportunity to see that?  I don't know.  I

12     didn't.  So I cannot tell you anything.  But when mail was being sent

13     out, it had to be filed in a register and then it would -- and then it

14     would have to say that a criminal report under such and such a number was

15     sent to the prosecutor's office.  I don't know.  If you have those

16     records, then it's easy to establish whether a criminal report was filed

17     against Mauzer or not.

18        Q.   But isn't it correct that at the police station there is a

19     log-book where criminal reports are logged, whether they're sent to the

20     prosecutor or not.  If they're written in the police station, aren't they

21     entered in the log-book?

22        A.   If a criminal report was written up, then it has to be sent to

23     the prosecutor.  It cannot stay at the police station.  Also in the

24     records of the prosecutor's office in Bijeljina, one could have checked

25     whether the police station had filed a criminal report against a

Page 21660

 1     particular person.  So there are two possibilities of checks: in police

 2     records and the records of the prosecutor's office.

 3        Q.   And if there's no record in the prosecutor's office of having

 4     received a criminal report about Mauzer and/or his men and there's no

 5     record in the police department about a criminal report having been

 6     written up about Mauzer and his men, would you then assume that no such

 7     report was ever written?

 8        A.   If all of these records were accessible to you and if you

 9     established these facts, then I cannot deny that.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, but again, Mr. Hannis, I would

11     appreciate if you can clarify.  I thought so far that you were talking

12     about one Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer.  And now your last question was Mauzer

13     and/or his men.

14             MR. HANNIS:  I'm particularly interested in Mauzer.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Because we don't know; there might be a number of

16     Mauzer's men who are in the -- in these documents.

17             MR. HANNIS:  I'm focused on Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, himself.

18        Q.   Now, not only does it appear that he wasn't charged or

19     prosecuted, did you know that the Panthers guard unit from Bijeljina

20     received the order of Nemanjici at the ceremonial session of the

21     Republika Srpska National Assembly in January 1994?  Did you hear about

22     that?

23             Did you hear my question?

24        A.   No, I didn't hear it.  And I don't understand the question about

25     the Nemanjics.  Are you talking about a Nemanjic street or some

Page 21661

 1     declaration from the times of the Nemanjic Dynasty or something like

 2     that?  I don't know.

 3        Q.   I'm talking about the name of an award that was made by the

 4     National Assembly, the Assembly of the Republika Srpska.  The order of

 5     Nemanjici is the name of the award, and it was given to the Panther unit

 6     on the 9th of January, 1994.  Did you hear about that, did you know about

 7     that?

 8        A.   No, I haven't heard of that.

 9        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Mauzer obtained a high position, Mr. Savic,

10     also known as Mauzer, obtained a very high position in the RS MUP?  In

11     January 1998 I believe he was appointed head of the public security

12     branch of the RS MUP, when Mr. Dodik was president of the government and

13     Mrs. Plavsic was president of the RS.  Did you know about that?

14        A.   Excuse me, but then it couldn't have been 1992, as the

15     interpretation I received said.

16        Q.   No, it's 1998.  January 1998.

17        A.   Yes, unfortunately, I did know.  I'm saying again: Unfortunately,

18     yes, I did know that he was appointed assistant for police affairs and he

19     carried out these duties for a while.  And after the killing of

20     Srdjan Knezevic, the head of the CSB in Pale, he carried out his own

21     investigation.

22             I would like to point that out: his own investigation.  Without

23     any kind of legal authority involved.  And it was established beyond any

24     doubt that during this investigation he used all sorts of methods that

25     were strictly prohibited, including using 220 volt currents against

Page 21662

 1     persons.  Therefore, he had to be replaced due to pressure that came from

 2     the public and all of these facts that were established beyond any doubt.

 3     I think that because of all of this a criminal report was even filed

 4     against Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, at the time.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  We're about to take the break, but before we

 6     do, Your Honours, I would like to save time and give the witness two

 7     documents to look over during the break, if he is willing to do that.

 8     One is from tab 318, which is 65 ter 20145.  It's not the entire

 9     document.  It's only the pages containing photographs of individuals.

10     And tab 308, 65 ter 01967, which is a newspaper interview with

11     Predrag Jesuric.

12             If I may, and could I indicate to the witness what I'd like him

13     to do.  One is to read the interview of Mr. Jesuric, and the other is to

14     look through the photographs.  And if he recognizes any of those

15     individuals, if he could put one of these red stickies on the page of

16     each person he recognizes.  And with that I think it's time for the

17     break.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Andan, did you understand Mr. Hannis's request?

19     Is there anything you would need him to clarify before we adjourn?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see, so you will be taking a

21     break and getting some rest and yet again I will have to ...

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Again, Your Honours, I'm wondering, how can the

23     witness answer the questions that are going to be based on the interview

24     of another person given to the press?  I'm really wondering where --

25             JUDGE HALL:  Don't anticipate, Mr. Zecevic.  Let's deal with

Page 21663

 1     the -- he would have the -- he would be able to review the documents, and

 2     we see what the question is at the appropriate time.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it was obvious to me what the intention was,

 4     I'm sorry.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             MR. HANNIS:

11        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'm sorry I made you work during the break.  I promise

12     you that this afternoon and tonight while you're on a break I'll be

13     working.  And the documents that you looked at, I'll come to those later,

14     so if you'll just keep them there with you until they come up.

15             We were talking -- go ahead.

16        A.   Just one thing.  I looked at the photos but the usher came and I

17     didn't have a chance to mark them.  That's what I wanted to say.  And I

18     read also the documents, but I made no markings on the photos.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  We can deal with that later.

20             You had mentioned about the occasion where you detained Mauzer.

21     I just wanted to confirm something I believe is correct.  The police have

22     the authority to make an initial decision about detention of a suspect in

23     a criminal case for up to three days; is that correct?  You don't need to

24     go to a judge to get that done; that's done on your own authority as a

25     policeman.  Right?

Page 21664

 1        A.   Yes, I think so.

 2        Q.   At page 21456 on Friday, you told us about how you were trying to

 3     deal with the problem of what I would call a bloated, b-l-o-a-t-e-d,

 4     reserve police force and how you were going to try to reduce that number

 5     down.  And you described for us the operation that you did where you had

 6     everyone called in and then ask who was willing to volunteer and go

 7     defend the front line.  I thought that was a very clever solution to a

 8     difficult problem.  But you said that the remainder of the reserve police

 9     force, the ones who weren't immediately taken off to the army barracks,

10     you checked against the crime files.  I just want to confirm what crime

11     files means in that context.  Does that mean you checked to see if they

12     had any prior convictions or if they had outstanding unresolved criminal

13     cases or charges pending or all of that?  Is that what you checked?

14        A.   Yes.  The individuals that remained in the reserve police force

15     were checked against our operative files as well as their criminal

16     records.  I think there was a dispatch from the ministry that all

17     individuals against whom criminal proceedings were underway may not be

18     members of the reserve police force.

19        Q.   And in your answer you said there were some people who had crime

20     files and, "we simply told them to go away."  Is that correct, you just

21     told those upon whom you found criminal files to go away?  You didn't

22     arrest them or detain them?

23        A.   I think it's a misunderstanding.  If somebody is registered as a

24     person with a prior conviction, it doesn't mean that that individual

25     should be arrested on the spot.  It simply means that that particular

Page 21665

 1     individual is registered as a person who had committed an offence.

 2             Another thing:  All those persons that we checked against our

 3     operative files, of course we summoned them, and we forwarded the list of

 4     such persons to the Secretariat for National Defence, and to them we said

 5     that their war assignment from that point on was within the Secretariat

 6     for National Defence of the Bijeljina municipality, so that's how we

 7     dealt with the persons for whom we found that they were registered in our

 8     operative registers.  At the time, we did not find anybody who had

 9     committed a crime and had to be processed.  There were only persons who

10     had committed offences in earlier periods.

11        Q.   Okay.  I understand.  Did you in the police then do anything to

12     physically remove them from your rolls, your list of members of the

13     reserve police, or did you have such a thing?  Maybe I'm not

14     understanding how it worked.  But wouldn't you have to do something to

15     indicate that, you know, Dragan Draganovic is removed from the reserve

16     police as of this date?  Who did that, and where and how was that noted?

17        A.   Of course.  The list went to the Secretariat for National Defence

18     along with the explanation stating that in line with the current

19     legislation we did not have the duty to state the offences for which they

20     had been convicted.  However, we did have the duty that according to the

21     then legislation we had to inform them that they were unfit to be members

22     of the reserve police forces and were thereby put at the disposal of the

23     Secretariat for National Defence.  That's the memo that went to the

24     Secretariat for National Defence of the Bijeljina municipality.

25        Q.   I understand that.  I'm trying to find out if internally, within

Page 21666

 1     the police department, the SJB at Bijeljina or the CSB at Bijeljina, or

 2     wherever, were talking about a reserve police contingent.  Is there not a

 3     list written down somewhere inside the police station of the reserve

 4     police, and if so, would this person's name be physically removed from

 5     the list at the Bijeljina SJB when you notified the Secretariat of

 6     National Defence about this person no longer being a member of the

 7     reserve police?  Do you follow me?

 8        A.   Yes, I follow you.  I think that at the time in the police

 9     administration there was a department in charge of the reserve police

10     forces.  I don't know how many people worked in that department at the

11     time.  So the same memo went also to the police administration, with the

12     same explanation that I already mentioned.  And the police administration

13     could ask a more detailed explanation for us -- from us.

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Could we show the witness Exhibit 1D554.  I believe

16     that was at Defence tab 57.

17        Q.   I think that's at number 57 in your binder, Mr. Andan.

18             This is a memo with your typed name at the bottom.  It's dated

19     the 20th of July, talking about the action in Brcko.  And the

20     next-to-the-last paragraph makes reference to what in my English

21     translation says "the special unit of the MUP of the Serbian Republic of

22     BH intervened and the Chief of Staff, the president of the

23     Municipal Assembly, chairman of the Executive Committee, and others were

24     released."  Specifically who were you referring to there?  Was that

25     Mico Davidovic and his men, or was that Milenko Karisik, or somebody

Page 21667

 1     else?  The special unit referenced in that paragraph.

 2        A.   I believe I already answered this question.  That was the unit of

 3     Mico Davidovic to whom the unit of Dusko Malovic was re-subordinated.

 4        Q.   Well, why doesn't it say the federal SUP special unit, if you're

 5     talking about Mico Davidovic?

 6        A.   Because they came to provide assistance to Republika Srpska.

 7     They were re-subordinated to the Command of Republika Srpska, and we

 8     treated it as a Republika Srpska unit, regardless of the fact that they

 9     had originated from the federal MUP.  So they were re-subordinated to the

10     Command of the Republika Srpska MUP.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Do you know, were they issued any RS MUP

12     identity cards during this phase of their presence in the RS, that is,

13     June and July, August of 1992?

14        A.   I don't understand the question.  Who was supposed to issue them

15     identity cards?

16        Q.   No, my question was:  Did Mico Davidovic and his men who came

17     from the federal SUP during the time that they were assisting in July and

18     August in the Bijeljina Brcko Zvornik area get some sort of RS MUP

19     identification to carry, or were they simply carrying their federal SUP

20     identifications, if you know?

21        A.   As for personal documents of Mr. Davidovic, he had a Bijeljina ID

22     because that was his permanent residence.  As for other IDs, I believe

23     that this unit had official IDs issued by the federal SUP.  However, I

24     did not see them using those IDs anywhere.  One more thing, they also had

25     had the accreditations issued by our MUP without a photograph.  It was a

Page 21668

 1     simple accreditation bearing number 1 or number 2 without any further

 2     identifying data.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that.  Here you're talking about the Red Berets.

 4     Are these Red Berets associated with Captain Dragan whom we talked about

 5     before?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yesterday you asked me whether I knew his name, and I

 7     remembered; I think his name is Dragan Vasiljkovic.  That is an

 8     individual who had arrived from Australia in Serbia at the beginning of

 9     war, and I think that after the war he returned to Australia and he is

10     currently being tried down there for some offences or maybe war crimes.

11     Anyway, those individuals were related to Dragan Vasiljkovic.

12        Q.   And even though they had kidnapped the persons described here,

13     basically, they -- it was worked out that they agreed to lay down their

14     arms and leave the territory.  Do you know, were all of these Red Berets

15     involved in this incident from Serbia or were some of them locals from

16     the RS?

17        A.   As far as I can remember, all the members were from Serbia.

18     Maybe two or three of them were from Brcko or elsewhere, but I would say,

19     percentage-wise, that more than 90 per cent of them were from Serbia.

20        Q.   And my question is:  Why weren't any of them arrested and charged

21     with some sort of crime, rather than simply taking away their guns and

22     shipping them across the border?

23        A.   I'm not quite sure whether you followed my earlier testimony.  I

24     hope you did.  There was an armed conflict.  This armed conflict, which

25     included the kidnapping of the leadership of the Brcko municipality, as

Page 21669

 1     well as Major Sehovac, could escalate into something far worse.  And if

 2     blood had been shed, that would have been the gravest possible outcome.

 3             I think that our actions at the time were wise and correct.  We

 4     managed to find a middle ground.  We sent the list of their names to the

 5     Serbian MUP along with the request to ban their entry into

 6     Republika Srpska.  The leadership had to be released.  Later on,

 7     Major Sehovac had to be released as well, and we managed to neutralise

 8     their presence by what we did.

 9             We also had to consider a group that had defected with an

10     anti-aircraft cannon and some other weapons in the direction of Ugljevik.

11     In other words, there was a constant possibility for another attack with

12     far worse consequences.  Had we brought them to the police station, we

13     would have been saddled with another problem, and that is the possibility

14     of an armed attack on the police station.  So we had to balance all the

15     time between war, in this case war with them, and a solution that could

16     bring peace.  We endeavoured to find a peaceful avenue towards a peaceful

17     outcome.  It was our joint decision, that's what we did at the moment.

18             Of course, you have to bear in mind that it was war time, that at

19     some times you have to make decisions on your own.  In peacetime, if I'm

20     not quite sure about a course of action, I would call up my superior or

21     undersecretary or the minister himself and I would consult them about

22     their opinion on the situation.  But in this particular situation, it is

23     you or I who have to make a decision on our own.  And even now after all

24     these years I maintain that we managed to find the best possible solution

25     for that situation.

Page 21670

 1        Q.   Okay.  And don't think that I'm passing judgement on you.  I was

 2     not in your shoes or in your situation.  I'm just inquiring.

 3             And I want to know if after this happened did any of those Red

 4     Berets or anyone on their behalf contact you or Mico Davidovic about what

 5     had happened, to raise a complaint or make any kind of comment, if you

 6     know?

 7        A.   I'm not quite sure what you mean.  After the action or much

 8     later?

 9        Q.   Any point in time.  Immediately after or weeks or months later.

10        A.   Except the negotiations that we had with them, I don't think that

11     Mico told me anything like that.  Nobody spoke to me, that I can tell

12     you.  Whether anybody spoke to Mr. Davidovic, I don't know, but I think

13     that Mico would have told me.

14        Q.   Do you recall Mico telling you that Frenki Simatovic had

15     contacted him to complain about these Red Berets being kicked out?

16        A.   Maybe.  When Mico left the area of Semberija and Majevica, it is

17     possible that he met Mr. Simatovic up there in Belgrade, but he didn't

18     tell me anything about that.

19        Q.   And you know who I mean when I'm referring to Frenki Simatovic

20     from -- he was from the MUP of Serbia; correct?

21        A.   Yes, yes, I know him.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, I do want to ask you about Dusko Malovic and his

23     unit.  The first thing I'd like to ask you is, When did you first meet

24     him?  Did you know him before the war?

25        A.   I did not know Dusko Malovic before the war.  I saw him for the

Page 21671

 1     first time when he arrived in the police station in Bijeljina.  I think

 2     he was in Mr. Kljajic's office.  Mr. Davidovic and I were invited to

 3     introduce ourself to Mr. Malovic, and we were told the same thing that we

 4     had said earlier, that we could not work on our own, that we needed

 5     reinforcement.  That's when Mr. Kljajic agreed with the minister of the

 6     interior that we should receive reinforcements in Bijeljina, and that's

 7     when we met Dusko Malovic.  He arrived with a unit numbering 20 or

 8     25 people, not more than 30, and that's when I met him for the first

 9     time.

10        Q.   Do you recall approximately when that was?  Was that late

11     July 1992?

12        A.   I said that I cannot remember dates; that's maybe one of my

13     problems.  I assume it was in July 1992.  But as for the date, I cannot

14     remember that.  You shouldn't ask me about dates.  I simply know that he

15     came there and I found him there.

16        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall if that was after the event we've been

17     talking about when the Red Berets were kicked out of Brcko?  Was it after

18     that event?

19        A.   We intervened in Brcko on two occasions, and I know for sure that

20     Dusko Malovic's unit took part in one of those actions.  I know that he

21     was re-subordinated to us.  So he was in Brcko at least once.  I know

22     that for sure.  But about the rest, I'm not quite sure.

23        Q.   And during your time in the area of Bijeljina and Brcko, Zvornik

24     in June and July of 1992 up until the time you left in late August, how

25     much contact did you have with Malovic and his unit?  I think you told us

Page 21672

 1     about three actions that they participated in.  Did you have occasion to

 2     meet and get to recognise and know some of the members of his group?

 3        A.   There was no need for me to communicate with his people.  Of

 4     course, Mr. Malovic was present at the meeting when the action was

 5     organised and later when it was carried out.  At this briefing, we

 6     instructed him what to do and how do to it.  Mr. Davidovic, of course,

 7     led the operation.  And all the orders during operations went through

 8     him.  In other words, I met a few of his people, as I have already

 9     stated, during the curfew, during night, when we went around Bijeljina

10     town and municipality checking whether people were observing the curfew.

11             I know some of the people, but there was no need for me to talk

12     to all of them.  If a need arose, they had their immediate superior who

13     contacted us in the command and agreed -- and reached an agreement about

14     the tasks that should be carried out.

15        Q.   During the break I asked you to look through some photos.  Did

16     you recognise any of the people in those photos that you looked at?

17        A.   Well, I did not have time to look at all of them.  As I told you,

18     I wanted to mark some of them.  Now I have a dilemma.  My wife hails from

19     Sokolac.  Some of the people on the photos I saw after the war in

20     Sokolac, and I think that I recognised among them some of the people who

21     were members of the unit.  When it comes to those that were definitely

22     members of Dusko Malovic's unit, I will mark them.  But now there are

23     some people that are familiar to me but I'm not quite sure whether they

24     were in the unit or not.

25        Q.   Okay.  I think maybe the best way to deal with it then, is I'll

Page 21673

 1     ask you, sorry, once more during the break to work, and next time when we

 2     take a break if you could take out the photos and mark the ones that

 3     you're sure were members of Dusko Malovic's unit.  And I'll work twice as

 4     long tonight to make up for imposing this task on you.  Is that

 5     agreeable?

 6        A.   Sure.  That's not a problem.  But if you're planning on working

 7     all night, I'm afraid you may not be able to come to work tomorrow.

 8        Q.   Well, we'll have to live with that risk.  Thanks for your

 9     concern.

10             Dusko Malovic's unit, what kind of uniforms were they wearing

11     when you saw them in July of 1992, do you recall?

12        A.   Yes, that was actually their distinctive mark.  They had some

13     specific uniforms that were not used by the police at the time.  They

14     were greyish in colour.  The shades were from dark grey through light

15     grey to white.

16        Q.   In a camouflage pattern?

17        A.   Yes, it was a camouflage pattern.

18        Q.   Did you ever hear of this unit that -- you've told us already

19     that this unit sometimes were referred to as Mico Stanisic's men or I

20     think you also referred to them as Malovic unit, and we've seen in

21     payroll documents Special Platoon Sokolac.  Did you ever hear them

22     referred to by any nickname that you recall?

23        A.   I said that in Bijeljina they were called Mico's Specials.  All

24     the natives of Bijeljina called them that because the entire unit or most

25     of them anyway were from the Sokolac municipality and that's where

Page 21674

 1     Mr. Stanisic was born.  We at the Bijeljina MUP called them Malovic's

 2     unit or Malovic's men.  I don't know of any other names or nicknames.

 3        Q.   Did you ever hear of them referred to as "snowflakes," I think

 4     because of their uniforms?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And I don't know if you told us or not, they arrived in

 7     Bijeljina, do you know where they had come from?  Had they come from Pale

 8     or somewhere else?

 9        A.   Well, it is logical for them to have come from Pale.

10        Q.   Had they been sent by Mr. Stanisic; is that your understanding?

11        A.   What I understood was that Mr. Cedo Kljajic, because we insisted

12     on getting reinforcements, sent a unit out to come to assist us.

13        Q.   Was Cedo Kljajic already in Bijeljina?

14        A.   Yes.  I don't know if I said as much, but I came from Brcko

15     because Cedo Kljajic summoned me there.  He was at the police station or

16     the CSB of Bijeljina at the time already.

17        Q.   Do you remember Mr. Malovic ever telling you that Mico Stanisic

18     was the only person that he took orders from?

19        A.   Well, how could he have said that? because he was taking orders

20     from us, too.  We didn't go into operations in Bijeljina, Zvornik, and so

21     on and every time call Mico and ask him, Do tell Kljajic [as interpreted]

22     to do this or that.  No.  We -- they executed orders that we gave them.

23        Q.   You mentioned --

24             Oh, I'm sorry.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, page 40, line 19, I believe he said --

Page 21675

 1     [Microphone not activated]

 2             Sorry, page 40, line 19:  "Do tell --" and it's written here

 3     "Kljajic."  I think the witness said, "Do tell Malovic."

 4             MR. HANNIS:

 5        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Andan, is that what you said or meant to

 6     say?

 7        A.   I don't know the context.  I don't speak English.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  It was recorded as - page 40, line 18:

 9             "We didn't go into operations in Bijeljina, Zvornik, and so on

10     and every time call Mico and ask him, Do tell Kljajic to do this or that.

11     No.  We -- they executed orders that we gave them."

12             And I think that the witness didn't say Kljajic but he said

13     Malovic.  That is the only intervention that I have.

14             MR. HANNIS:

15        Q.   Having heard that, Mr. Andan, can you confirm if what Mr. Zecevic

16     said is correct?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Zecevic is right.  He is right.

18        Q.   All right, Mr. Andan, I think what I want to do is give you an

19     opportunity to mark some of those photos before I ask some further

20     questions on that.  And let me move to something else.

21             At page 21466 on Friday, you were talking about the event where

22     you guys had detained Jovan Micic and some active-duty VRS personnel when

23     they had a truck-load of what turned out to be stolen household goods of

24     all kinds.  I just want to confirm:  So I understand that basically in

25     this situation, this time and this place, the police didn't have the

Page 21676

 1     authority to arrest active-duty military personnel by law; is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   I think that there's a mistake in interpretation again.  In the

 4     first part of your question, at least that's how it was interpreted to

 5     me, you said that he was an active-duty police officer, but he wasn't.

 6     He was an officer, an active-duty military officer in the VRS, and he had

 7     the rank of major.

 8             And it is correct, we had an agreement with the representatives

 9     of the military police of the East Bosnia Corps to detain such persons

10     until handing them over to the military police.  We brought the

11     suspicious goods and persons to the police station and detained them

12     until hand-over to the military police.

13        Q.   Okay.  That seems to me a very practical solution.  So in real

14     life it did happen sometimes that police were able to detain active-duty

15     army members suspected of being involved in a crime; right?  This is just

16     one example.

17        A.   Yes, you're right, although the commander of the

18     East Bosnia Corps also insisted, to put it that way, that we should carry

19     out all activities provided by the law in areas where there was no

20     military police presence with regard to such persons, because the

21     military police in such cases had to come from another place, and we were

22     expected to make a list of the goods and specify what the persons were

23     suspected of.  And that's what we were able to do on such occasions.

24        Q.   The commander of the East Bosnia Corps you referred to here, was

25     that Colonel Ilic?

Page 21677

 1        A.   Yes.  At the time, it was Colonel Ilic.  And a bit later, as far

 2     as I know, he was replaced, possibly by General Simic.  But while we were

 3     there, I'm certain that it was Colonel Ilic.

 4        Q.   During the time you were in Bijeljina in the general area from

 5     mid-June until the second half of August, can you tell us, was the

 6     SJB Bijeljina located in the same building as the CSB or were they in

 7     separate buildings?

 8        A.   The centre and the duty officers were on the ground floor, as

 9     well as the legal department.  Possibly some parts of these

10     organisational units were also on the first floor.  But basically the

11     centre was located on the ground floor.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  The answer as recorded obviously doesn't make

13     sense, and it is precisely because it wasn't -- his answer was not

14     recorded properly.  Now, I can say, but I don't know -- I think that it

15     is not such a big issue of dispute.  The witness said that the police

16     station of Bijeljina occupied the ground floor and the parts of the first

17     floor, and the first floor and the second floor was occupied by the CSB.

18     Thank you.

19             MR. HANNIS:

20        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Andan?  It sounds like both the SJB and the

21     CSB were in the same building.

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   And I think you told us before that when Malovic's unit was in

24     town they stayed in the attic of that building; right?

25             I'm sorry, did you answer?

Page 21678

 1        A.   No, not yet.  But that's right.  It's a modern building that was

 2     opened before the war began.  And in the attic there was a suite and two

 3     rooms and there were also some offices.  The offices were turned into

 4     bedrooms and Mr. Malovic and his unit found accommodation there.  And

 5     Mr. Cedo Kljajic, with his driver, was on the same floor.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I now want to go to a different topic, page

 7     201472 and -473, you mentioned that there was a dilemma at that time

 8     about which CSB Zvornik belonged to, whether it was Bijeljina or

 9     Sarajevo.  And you said that "in Bijeljina we believed Zvornik was ours."

10     And you mentioned that the minister sent a dispatch saying it belonged to

11     Sarajevo, "however, in spite of that we did plan to carry out a major

12     operation neutralising the Yellow Wasps in Zvornik."

13             Do you remember testifying to that on Friday?

14        A.   Yes, Zvornik certainly was ours.  But the contentious issue was

15     under which CSB it should be, Bijeljina or the Sarajevo-Romanija CSB, I

16     believe that's its name or that was its name.  But we needed the

17     minister's approval for launching the operation.  We were closer to

18     Zvornik, and the Bijeljina CSB was less far than the CSB of the

19     Sarajevo-Romanija region.  As far as I remember, they were -- their

20     headquarters was in Lukavica, which is a neighbourhood of Sarajevo,

21     basically.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Could we show the witness Exhibit P336.  It's tab

24     212.

25        Q.   You mentioned a dispatch from the minister about this issue.

Page 21679

 1     Have a look at that and tell me if you think that's the dispatch you were

 2     talking about.

 3        A.   Yes, I believe that this is the dispatch.

 4        Q.   Now, I see this one is dated the 16th of August, which would have

 5     been a couple of weeks after your operation in Zvornik against the

 6     Yellow Wasp, so I'm wondering, if the dispatch didn't come until then,

 7     how can you say, In spite of that dispatch we went ahead and planned the

 8     operation in Zvornik?  Are you just getting the dates mixed up about when

 9     this came out?

10        A.   Well, dates are obviously my weakness.  I have been repeating

11     that over and over.

12             It's coming to my mind now because there has been some reaction

13     from the CSB of Eastern Sarajevo or Serbian Sarajevo, as it was called,

14     because we were making some organisational changes.  And the person in

15     charge in Sarajevo probably was wondering what we were doing, and we

16     replied that this was within our jurisdiction.  And there was a

17     disagreement about that because a chief had to be appointed and that's

18     why this dispatch was sent out by the minister of the interior.  But

19     obviously somebody else signed instead of him.  And I apologise again for

20     the dates because it's likely that they will remain a problem while

21     you're dealing with me.

22        Q.   Okay.  If Zvornik had been considered to be under Sarajevo CSB

23     and you were planning to conduct this kind of operation, would it have

24     been standard procedure to consult or co-ordinate or inform, at least,

25     Mr. Zoran Cvijetic, head of the CSB in Sarajevo, because it involved

Page 21680

 1     something technically under his domain, if you know?

 2        A.   The agreement about launching the action was reached in

 3     Bijeljina.  I know that Mr. Kljajic informed minister Stanisic of all its

 4     details, and I know that without Mr. Stanisic's approval, who was

 5     minister of the interior then, the use of the special unit of the MUP of

 6     the RS commanded by Milenko Karisik would not have been possible.

 7             I also know that certain forces of the VRS were used in the

 8     course of this action.  It was the military police or possibly the

 9     protection regiment.  I'm not sure.  But Mico Davidovic or I could not

10     co-ordinate this with the other bodies.  This was done by Mr. Kljajic as

11     undersecretary of public security, and it was his legal obligation to get

12     an approval from the minister of the interior both for the operation

13     itself and for the use of the special unit of the RS MUP commanded by

14     Mr. Milenko Karisik.

15        Q.   Can I take it from that answer that neither -- that you, at

16     least, didn't have any conversation with Zoran Cvijetic about this

17     operation before it took place?

18        A.   Neither with Zoran Cvijetic nor with the representatives of the

19     military or Mr. Karisik.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let me move to a different topic.

21             MR. HANNIS:  If we could show the witness Exhibit 1D557, and I

22     think this is -- this is your diary, Mr. Andan.  It's Defence tab 59.  I

23     think that's in your binder.  And I'd like to begin with page 1 of the

24     English, and I think it's page 5 -- or, I'm sorry, page 7 of the B/C/S

25     that I want.

Page 21681

 1        Q.   Mr. Andan, I don't know if you have a hard copy of it or not.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Is that part of his binder?

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, it should be in his binder, tab 59.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know which page it

 5     is.  If it's the same that I see on the screen ...

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... it's page 4 in

 7     Serbian.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Yeah, it's the page that you see on the screen.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  The page has number 22 in the --

10             MR. HANNIS: -- upper left?

11             MR. ZECEVIC: -- upper left corner.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

13             MR. HANNIS:

14        Q.   The only question I have on this concerns to the writing in the

15     box.  It's information provided by Jovo Mijatovic.  Is this

16     Jovo Mijatovic the Jovo Mijatovic who was a -- from Zvornik and was a

17     member of the National Assembly of the RS, do you know?

18        A.   I cannot remember now, but I seem to have added a note that he

19     works at Glinica.  I'm not certain, but I think that he was an executive

20     at Glinica, maybe even the director.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, for clarity maybe the witness can read this

22     because I don't think that the English translation is appropriate of this

23     entry in his diary.

24             MR. HANNIS:

25        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Andan, can you read what it says inside that sort of

Page 21682

 1     rectangle on the right side near the middle of the page, where we see the

 2     name Mijatovic, Jovo.

 3        A.   "Information from Jovo Mijatovic, Glinica" -- probably works at

 4     Glinica.  According to my interpretation, some of the information or most

 5     of the information about the facility where they were making an armoured

 6     train and the other combat hardware was received from Jovo Mijatovic.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Next I want to go to page 6 in the English.  In

 9     e-court I think it's B/C/S page 25.

10        Q.   In your binder, Mr. Andan, it's the entry for the 25th of July,

11     and it has printed page numbers 44 and 45 at the top of the diary pages.

12     Did you find that one?

13        A.   Yes, I found it.

14        Q.   And there's a reference that says "Stevo Radic, a member of the

15     municipal authorities, recommended that he, Zuco, come."  Do you know who

16     Stevo Radic was, was his job was in the municipality of Zvornik at that

17     time?

18        A.   No, I don't.

19        Q.   Do you know who the source of this information was at the 25 July

20     meeting?

21        A.   Give me a second.  I think that this is operational intelligence

22     that I entered in my diary, and I entered that Stevo Radic approved

23     Zuco's arrival to Bijeljina municipality, if I'm reading this correctly.

24     I think that's the way it was.

25        Q.   You said Bijeljina, but I think you meant Zvornik.

Page 21683

 1        A.   Right, Zvornik.  Right.

 2        Q.   Okay.  If you could go -- we're on the same page in English, but

 3     could you go to your pages 46 and 47.  There's an entry that -- I think

 4     it's near the bottom of 46, printed page number 46 in the upper left,

 5     that says "Zuco's brother Repic is in Celopek.  Killed 200 people.  Cut

 6     off ears and other body parts.  150 - 200 people."  Wasn't that referring

 7     to Muslims who had been detained in Celopek?  Did you know that?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, this is some intelligence that we had received from

 9     operatives.  It has to do with ethnic Muslims.

10        Q.   And what operatives were the source of this information?  Was

11     that civilians, was that state security, police, military, or do you

12     recall who the source was?

13        A.   I do not recall the source, but I think that the service of

14     national security also had this information.

15        Q.   That sounds like rather alarming news.  Did it cause you to have

16     some sense of urgency to get this operation underway?

17        A.   No, even without that, without this particular piece of

18     information, because this is just one of the many, this did not exert any

19     pressure on us.  As we worked and as we collected information, we needed

20     as much information as we could get, and one particular information that

21     we had received was this.  So within our overall activities we had this

22     kind of information available as well.

23             I remember that Mr. Davidovic particularly emphasised, before

24     carrying out this operation, that Repic was highly deranged.  I think

25     that he also appointed a special team to deal with him.  If I remember

Page 21684

 1     correctly, there was a special building that the team entered.  And to be

 2     quite sincere, there were some orders to the effect that we respond if he

 3     puts up armed assistance [as interpreted].  So all the legal requirements

 4     have been met, so even if he had to be physically liquidated, we could do

 5     it, or, rather, they could do it.  Fortunately that was not done.  He was

 6     arrested, he was prosecuted, and handed over to the appropriate

 7     prosecutor's office and further on.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  If we can go to page 7 of the English and page 29 in

10     e-court for the B/C/S.

11        Q.   Mr. Andan, I think it's your pages 48 and 49, the printed numbers

12     on the diary.  Do you find -- I hope I'm in the right place.  Do you find

13     an entry that says "disarm and expel paramilitary formations; see with

14     Serbia about certain groups."  Do you find that one?  I think it's at the

15     bottom of the right-hand page, page 49 for you.

16        A.   It says here:

17             "War profiteers document, disarm paramilitary formations, expel

18     and ask for individual groups, see with Serbia."

19             If I've read it correctly, is that what you mean?

20        Q.   Yes, that's the one.  Do you recall what you meant when you were

21     writing "see with Serbia"?  Were you supposed to co-ordinate with Serbia

22     about expelling particular groups or particular individuals?  What is

23     that about?

24        A.   Obviously there was an ongoing problem in that area where we

25     were, namely the paramilitaries that were coming in from the territory of

Page 21685

 1     Serbia.  I think that it was necessary to go to the Ministry of the

 2     Interior of Serbia with all the appropriate documentation, information,

 3     that we had available at that point in time, requesting that at the

 4     border crossing between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina they forbid or try

 5     to forbid the crossing of the border by paramilitaries, of course

 6     paramilitaries from Serbia into Bosnia.  Naturally it was difficult to

 7     carry that through because the border was open.  They could only forbid

 8     armed persons to enter the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9             As for those who crossed the border in civilian clothing, they

10     could get both weapons and uniforms at certain locations.  So it had to

11     do with that, to present this problem quite simply to the appropriate

12     organs of the MUP of Serbia and to ask for their assistance with regard

13     to further bans on the crossing of the border between Serbia and Bosnia

14     by paramilitaries.

15             MR. HANNIS:  All right.  If we could go -- stay on page 7 of the

16     English and --

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could I just put a question to the witness here.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Because the obvious possibility would have been

20     for the Republika Srpska authorities to arrest and prosecute these people

21     rather than trying to expel them and send them back to Serbia.  Why

22     didn't you do that or why didn't the RS authorities just take them into

23     their own custody and handle them as they would have handled any other

24     criminal?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know, we did deal with

Page 21686

 1     individuals and groups, but if in legal and formal terms what you

 2     referred to had been applied, then we would have needed lots and lots of

 3     prisons in the territory of Republika Srpska.  So what we tried to do at

 4     that point in time was to hand such individuals over at the border to the

 5     Serbian authorities.  If they were to prosecute it in Republika Srpska,

 6     we needed to have more prisons than barracks.  And, quite simply, that

 7     was a solution, to get rid of them in that way and to get them out of the

 8     territory of Republika Srpska.

 9             However, I am not denying that we did detain groups and

10     individuals and file criminal reports against them.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you for this clarification.  But could I,

12     then, ask you, What happened to the paramilitaries that you sent back to

13     Serbia?  Was there any condition that they be detained and prosecuted in

14     Serbia, or did they just return over the border a few weeks later?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, with appropriate

16     documentation we handed that over at the Serbian border.  It was up to

17     them as to what they would do with these individuals afterwards.  But you

18     are quite right when you ask whether such persons returned.  Some did,

19     individuals did, some extremists as a matter of fact, and then they would

20     bring along sometimes even those who had not been at the front line

21     before.  So for a while this was going round and round in circles.

22             What we insisted upon was that they should be placed under the

23     Army of Republika Srpska if they were coming anyway, but they didn't want

24     to do that.  And then, let me put it this way: Official state structures

25     did not tolerate that, but some municipal authorities exerted pressure

Page 21687

 1     even against us, saying, These people are coming here to fight for their

 2     own people and you are trying to get rid of them.  That was Mr. Savic's

 3     thesis as well, at an official meeting.  And I really am pleased to be

 4     able to read this for the very first time today, what the Prosecutor has

 5     shown me just now.  I see that it was Mr. Mauzer who basically held all

 6     power in his hands in the municipality and that even Mr. Jesuric was

 7     saying that he as chief of the centre was under Mauzer.

 8             I remember when I left from Pale to carry out the supervisory

 9     inspection we were not interested in politics; we were supposed to do

10     this job professionally.  And it is with that frame of mind that I went

11     to Brcko and Bijeljina and everywhere else, because I did not want to

12     listen to political factors.  I'm saying this on a personal note now; I

13     lived through all the things that I lived through and experienced

14     everything I experienced.  The official position of the ministry was not

15     to allow politics to interfere in our own work, and I accepted that.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And of course we do respect the work and the

17     intensions that you had in doing -- in carrying out these inspections.

18     But still, my question would be:  When you arrested and disarmed these

19     paramilitary groups and when you then sent them back to Serbia and handed

20     them over to the Serbian authorities at the border between Bosnia and

21     Serbia, did you hand over these detainees with any request that they be

22     prosecuted for the crimes that they had committed in Bosnia, prosecuted

23     by the Serbian authorities?  Was that a condition for your passing them

24     back to the Serbian authorities?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether that was a

Page 21688

 1     request made, but it is certain that along with the list that we

 2     compiled, we did include a brief description of the crimes they had

 3     committed.  So this brief description of the crimes they had committed

 4     and their names were something that we handed over at the Serbian border.

 5             There's another thing I would like to tell you.  I hope I'm not

 6     taking up too much time.  From the existing documentation, you have seen

 7     that we did prosecute Zuco and his group.  Everything was done in

 8     accordance with the law.  It was handed over to the prosecutor's office.

 9     Three, five, seven days after that, all of them were released.  So it

10     wasn't the problem of the Ministry of the Interior any longer.  The

11     ministry made every effort to work in accordance with the laws that were

12     in force.  But you had another problem:  The problem of the prosecutor,

13     the prosecutor's offices, the courts that didn't dare to bring that

14     process to an end or didn't have the capacity to do so.  But I claim with

15     full responsibility that the Ministry of the Interior had carried out its

16     work in accordance with the law.

17             Now, whether that happened in each and every case or not, that

18     can be discussed, as we've already said.  There were some individuals

19     that we sent to the border without having prosecuted them in

20     Republika Srpska, but there are others that we did.  After all, there was

21     a war going on.  We were not in the same kind of position as one is in

22     peacetime, to do things peacefully, in a cool-headed manner.  It was like

23     a fast-moving film, and problems had to be dealt with all the time.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I understand.  Thank you very much.

25             MR. HANNIS:  I note the time, Your Honours.

Page 21689

 1             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the break now, to resume in 20 minutes.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, while the witness is coming in,

 6     Ms. Korner had asked me to make an oral application for an increase in

 7     the word count, from the normal 3.000 to 3500 words for a motion applying

 8     for admission of the MFI'd documents for Mr. Bjelosevic.  We have to set

 9     out the law and put in reasons applying for each particular document, and

10     we think we'll need the additional words.  And that's my oral

11     application.  I don't know what the Defence position is.  But I'm

12     bringing it to your attention now.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, we do not oppose.  It is

14     obviously for the Trial Chamber to decide on that.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Order as prayed.

18             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Andan, I'd like to just follow up on an couple things that

20     were said during --

21             JUDGE HALL:  I note the transcript -- ah, it now has it correct.

22     Thanks.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

24        Q.   I just wanted to follow up on a couple of things that were said

25     during your discussion with Judge Harhoff at the end of last session.

Page 21690

 1     And at page 53, line 10, you mentioned that you would have a list of

 2     names compiled and you would include a brief description of the crimes

 3     they'd allegedly committed and that was handed over at the Serbian border

 4     when these paramilitaries were kicked out.

 5             Did you keep a copy of that information about the individuals and

 6     the alleged crimes they might have committed, did you keep a copy of that

 7     information as a record in your police stations somewhere so that if or

 8     when any of these individuals returned and perhaps started doing similar

 9     kinds of things, that maybe they could be prosecuted then, not only for

10     the new crimes they might have committed but for the ones that had led to

11     them being kicked out before?

12        A.   Yes.  In my own documentation, I actually had such a list

13     somewhere of the Red Berets that we had expelled from the area of Brcko.

14     I tried to find it; however, I moved three or four times and I seem to

15     have misplaced this somewhere.  However, this documentation did remain at

16     the police station in the -- from the territory of which we expelled such

17     persons.

18        Q.   And if -- if we were going to go look for that documentation now

19     in the police station, could you tell us where specifically we might find

20     it?  Was there a particular kind of log-book it would be contained in?

21     Can you give us a description of the file or the archives area to search

22     if we wanted to find those particular kinds of documents?

23        A.   Well, I cannot give you an answer now as to whether that can be

24     found and whether it exists, but it did exist at the police station or in

25     the crime service.  Such a document did exist.  Now, whether it exists to

Page 21691

 1     this day, I don't know.  But I told you that as a matter of fact I myself

 2     had such a list somewhere.  I've misplaced it and I wish I could have

 3     found it and given it to the lawyer.

 4        Q.   I understand that you had a list, but you can see my point that

 5     your personal list wouldn't have been much use in Bijeljina or Brcko or

 6     Zvornik after mid-August 1992 because you had been removed from the

 7     service and you weren't working as a policeman anymore.  So if one of

 8     these or more of these paramilitaries came back and started committing

 9     new crimes, how would anybody in Bijeljina or Brcko or Zvornik know that

10     this was a repeat customer who maybe deserved to be prosecuted this

11     second time?

12        A.   That is correct.  I was removed.  But as far as I know, soon

13     after that Mr. Stanisic was moved, too, and Mr. Kljajic left and some new

14     people arrived and had a different policy at the MUP.  And I suggest that

15     you ask this question to Mr. Kovac, if you haven't already done so, who

16     was in charge of the MUP after Mr. Stanisic.  I'm sure that such

17     documents were kept at the MUP with regard to the policy of running the

18     ministry.  Certainly there was documentation available.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you for that.  I guess this is a follow-on, one

20     further follow-on, to Judge Harhoff's inquiries.  It was a problem with

21     simply kicking these people out because as long as there was property to

22     be looted or plundered, some of them would and did come back; right?

23             If I can use a crude analogy:  It's like in a cheap apartment;

24     you turn on the lights, the cockroaches run behind the refrigerator and

25     under the door, but when you leave, they come back again, as long as

Page 21692

 1     there's something to eat.  Is that a fair description in this situation?

 2        A.   Conditionally speaking, we were a disinfection team in that area.

 3     At any rate, I agree that we were unable to remove all of them.  We drove

 4     them out, and some individuals never returned.  But then new groups would

 5     be formed.  There would be these stories of heroism in the theatre of

 6     war.  And then people brought things back with them and then the

 7     neighbours saw that and then thought to himself, Okay, I might as well

 8     try to bring back something as well.  We tried to switch off the lights

 9     and kill all the roaches, but we haven't achieved our goal.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Andan.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Let's return to your diary and English page 7.  I

12     think that's still on the screen.  And for the B/C/S, it's page 31 in

13     e-court.  I think that's your pages 50 -- well, something strange has

14     happened with the numbering.  It's page 50 on the left-hand side, and the

15     right-hand side is page 91.

16        Q.   And it's an entry -- there's an entry dated 31.7.92 on the

17     right-hand page, number 91.  You find that?

18        A.   I found it.  31 July 1992.

19        Q.   Right above that, I want to ask you about the entry that in my

20     English translation says "Mico, introduction on the execution of

21     operation Zvornik."

22             Who is that referring to?  Is that Mico Davidovic?

23        A.   Yes, Mico Davidovic.

24        Q.   And was this a meeting where the plan was discussed on how it was

25     going to be done and who was going to do which particular task?

Page 21693

 1        A.   Yes, it was one of the meetings at Mr. Cedo Kljajic's premises.

 2     He was undersecretary of public security.  And the introductory

 3     presentation was made by Mico Davidovic at this meeting.

 4        Q.   Did Mico Davidovic do the introduction because he was partly

 5     responsible for heading up the operation and making assignments, or was

 6     it somebody else's job?

 7        A.   Mico did the introduction from his field of work, and the two of

 8     us usually worked as a pair on the same kind of jobs.  And I may have

 9     added some remarks or comments.  But as I have explained, I was sent to

10     Zvornik municipality with some operatives, where I collected information

11     about the composition and the numerical strength and so on of the unit

12     commanded by Vojin Vuckovic, also known as Zuco.

13        Q.   Who gave you the task?  We know one of your tasks was to actually

14     make the arrest of Zuco.  Who assigned you that task?

15        A.   It was something that crystallised during the action itself.  We

16     completed the action, and there was no Zuco.  So Mico Davidovic and I

17     quickly decided that I should take that responsibility and that I should

18     execute the arrest of Zuco.  I have already described it.

19        Q.   Yes, you have.  And I'll come back to that in a minute.

20             I do want to ask you a question about your diary.

21             MR. HANNIS:  If we could zoom out to have both pages of the

22     B/C/S.

23        Q.   We see the printed numbers in the diary.  On the left-hand page

24     it says number 50; and on the right-hand it's at 91.  Now, up to now we

25     see that the even number is usually on the left-hand page and the odd

Page 21694

 1     number's on the right.  Just looking at this, this looks like we're

 2     missing about 40 pages between 51 and 90.  Can you tell us if that's

 3     correct and, if so, how those pages came to be missing and what they

 4     might contain?

 5        A.   I cannot explain exactly what this is and whether anything is

 6     missing here.  As I told you, I handed over my diary to Mr. Gregorian on

 7     his request.  I never got it back.  And I think that the logical course

 8     of action would be to ask him what happened to my diary and my other

 9     documents.

10        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Page 50 on the screen, there, seems to be

11     the end of a continuous entry regarding July 25th.  So if that's the

12     case, then the days that would be missing would be between July 26 and

13     July 30.  Do you recall writing 40 pages' worth of stuff on those four

14     days?

15        A.   I don't remember.  Believe me, I don't think that I wrote that

16     much in such a short period of time.  I made my notes on my knees, not in

17     an office.  It was simply an aide-memoire.  Normally when I would go

18     somewhere I would take this diary with me and then I would go into the

19     field.  Normally my handwriting is much, much nicer than what you can see

20     here.  I have to justify myself somehow.  Look at this writing.

21        Q.   I can understand that under the circumstances your writing

22     wouldn't be the prettiest.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Let's go to page 11 of the English, and I think it's

24     page 57 in e-court for the B/C/S.

25        Q.   And for you, Mr. Andan, in your hard copy it's pages, printed

Page 21695

 1     numbers, 118 and 119.  On the left there's an entry for 13.8.1992.  13

 2     August.  Find that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   It's a reference to Ostoja Minic for chief of the crime service

 5     in Zvornik.  Did you know Mr. Minic before the Yellow Wasp operation?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Do you remember him being present as an inspector who

 8     participated in doing some of the interviews of the detained Yellow Wasp?

 9        A.   I believe he imposed himself simply by being a very responsible

10     member of the crime service, and then my suggestion or our suggestion was

11     to appoint him for the chief of the crime service.  I allow for the

12     possibility that there were some discussions between him and others, but

13     I think that he showed a high level of professionalism and that that's

14     the reason for his name appearing here.  However, if he appeared now on

15     the door, I would not recognise him.

16        Q.   When you say "our suggestion," did that mean you and

17     Mico Davidovic or somebody else made the suggestion or recommendation

18     that Minic get this job?

19        A.   The two of us.  We observed his behaviour and his work, so I'm

20     sure that it was the two of us who proposed him to be appointed to the

21     chief of crime service position.

22        Q.   Am I correct that that didn't come through, he did not get that

23     position?  Or do you know?

24        A.   I don't know.  We nominated him.  It was then up to the SJB chief

25     to accept that or not accept it.  Looking back now, I cannot tell you

Page 21696

 1     whether he was appointed or not.  If he was, then he would have received

 2     a formal decision on his appointment.  But I really don't know about

 3     that.

 4        Q.   And at that time on the 13th of August, do you know who was the

 5     SJB chief who would have made the decision about appointing him?

 6        A.   I don't know the names.  Maybe if I were to see some documents, I

 7     could refresh my memory.  I know that we suggested to Mr. Kljajic that

 8     all the personnel, all the top personnel, in the public security station

 9     should be replaced, chief and the commander and others, and as I

10     mentioned before, also the chief of legal affairs against whom they filed

11     a criminal report.  I don't know exactly who was then appointed in the

12     end to that position.

13        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I think two more entries and then we'll be

14     done with your diary.

15             MR. HANNIS:  The next one is page 12 in the English, page 59 in

16     e-court for the B/C/S.

17        Q.   And for you, Mr. Andan, it's pages 120 and 121 in your hard copy.

18     And on the left-hand page there's an entry that says:

19             "The reserve police force - criminals in Zvornik.  There are

20     still unresolved issues in Zvornik - Stevo Radic, former chief Marinko

21     and former police station commander Maric."

22             Can you tell us any further detail about what that was about and

23     what the situation was?

24        A.   Well, obviously during our stay we received information about

25     problems with the reserve police force.  The same problem existed in

Page 21697

 1     Brcko.  And here in Zvornik, we simply wrote down that in the following

 2     phase the reserve police force should be combed, so to put it, so that

 3     appropriate checks are made for the whole reserve police force.

 4             The unresolved issues were issues of the chief and the commander,

 5     Stevo Radic, for instance.  I assume that Mr. Kljajic had not received

 6     appropriate approvals for them to be replaced at that moment, but what I

 7     do know is that they were replaced later on.  So maybe at this point of

 8     time he was in some sort of consultations with Mr. Stanisic.  Later on we

 9     received the approval to replace them and to appoint other individuals to

10     these positions.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. HANNIS:  And the last one, page 14 of the English, and

13     page 71 in e-court in the B/C/S.

14        Q.   Pages 132 and 133 in the hard copy for you, Mr. Andan.  And the

15     right-hand page in e-court of the B/C/S is what I want to ask about.

16     There's something here that appears to be in handwriting other than

17     yours, and my English translation says it says:

18             "Boss.  Pursuant to an agreement with your director Rajko Dukic,

19     please give this unit 500 litres of petrol and oil each, and fill up

20     their combat vehicles.  Minister of the Interior of the Serbian Republic,

21     Mico Stanisic."

22             What can you tell us about that note in your diary?

23        A.   I was present at the meeting in Belgrade with Mr. Stanisic.  It

24     related to my departure for the Foca area.  At that meeting the problem

25     of fuel was highlighted, and that is when Mr. Stanisic wrote this into my

Page 21698

 1     diary.  I was supposed to show this to the manager of the gas station in

 2     Zvornik.  That would be a way for me to receive that fuel and enable this

 3     fuel to be given over to people who were dealing with the vehicles,

 4     combat vehicles, in question.  And this is the signature of Mr. Stanisic.

 5        Q.   And I take it this was in conjunction with the planned operation

 6     in Foca that Mr. Stanisic wanted you to go on; right?

 7        A.   Yes.  He wanted me to lead that operation.  I already stated

 8     other people who were supposed to go to Foca together with me, and I also

 9     mentioned the dispatches sent to the Serbian MUP and the Montenegrin MUP.

10     As I said, we did not receive approval from the Serbian MUP to cross

11     their territory.  We didn't have combat vehicles.  We didn't have any

12     policemen with long barrels.  I would not entirely exclude the

13     possibility that we had some hand-held rocket-launchers.

14             So we had some of the dry food and some of the equipment that we

15     were supposed to take with us.  Mr. Stanisic spoke to me and because of

16     the problems that had accumulated in Foca, he told me that I should take

17     this into my own hands and that they had agreed with Cedo Kljajic that

18     something should have been done about it.  The problem of fuel was a

19     problem that was very much present in Republika Srpska.  This is an

20     attempt of Mr. Stanisic to ensure fuel for us so that we could travel to

21     Foca.

22        Q.   So this was written in your diary on the 18th of August when you

23     were at that meeting at Bosanska Vila in Belgrade with Mr. Stanisic; is

24     that right?

25        A.   I think so.

Page 21699

 1        Q.   Was anybody else present at that meeting or was it just the two

 2     of you?

 3        A.   As far as I can remember, I was on my own.  Cedo Kljajic sent me

 4     to Belgrade alone.

 5        Q.   Do you remember now what day you were actually supposed to set

 6     out for Foca?  Was it the next day or a week later?  What do you

 7     remember?

 8        A.   I already stated that I cannot remember the exact dates.  I

 9     assume that we were supposed to depart during the next few days.  We had

10     to establish the unit first, because the unit of Mico Davidovic had been

11     returned to the federal SUP.  So from the existing complement of police

12     forces in Bijeljina, I was supposed to establish a unit.  I think I

13     already had the core of the unit.  And with the additional manpower, I

14     was supposed to depart for Foca within a week or so.  But you have to

15     excuse me, I'm not very good with dates.

16        Q.   All right.  We may return to that a little further on just for a

17     couple of items.  But let me go back now with just one or two questions

18     about the paramilitaries being removed.  You told us, I think, that the

19     first time in Brcko, that you said 90-some per cent of those were Serbs

20     from Serbia who were kicked out, but you said two or three of them were

21     probably locals from Brcko.  Were the locals kicked out to Serbia or were

22     they simply released? because it doesn't appear that they were prosecuted

23     locally either.  What happened to them?

24        A.   I don't know precisely.  I think that that part of the fugitive

25     group that went towards Ugljevik, I think that they were mostly from

Page 21700

 1     Republika Srpska.  I don't know whether later on there was a search made

 2     to find those individuals.  I can only tell you that those people that we

 3     arrested and disarmed, we sent them to Serbia.  Others allegedly went

 4     towards Ugljevik.  And whether they went on to some other theatre of war,

 5     I wouldn't know.  And I also don't know whether there was any operative

 6     work later on to try to find them.  I simply don't know.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Can we show the witness Exhibit P591 -- [Microphone

 8     not activated].  I'm sorry.

 9             Can we show the witness Exhibit P591.  It's tab 143 in the

10     Prosecution list.

11        Q.   Mr. Andan, I don't know if you will have seen this document

12     before or not.  It's dated the 28th of July, 1992.  It comes from

13     General -- or I guess at the time Colonel Tolimir in the VRS, and it's a

14     report on paramilitary formations in the territory of the RS.  Do you

15     recall ever seeing that document before?

16        A.   No, I haven't seen it.

17        Q.   Okay.  Then I'm going to pass on that for now.

18             At page 21488 on Monday, you told to Mr. Zecevic that you were

19     trying to underline the responsibility of all those who had committed a

20     crime had to be identified, that had to be established, and they needed

21     to be removed as soon as possible, not just kicking paramilitaries out

22     but also if there were police who had engaged in criminal conduct, that

23     they needed to be removed from the police force.  It seems what you've

24     been testifying to, that you and Mico Davidovic were working hard at

25     trying to deal with that issue, but to your knowledge were similar

Page 21701

 1     efforts being made elsewhere in Republika Srpska with as much, if I may

 2     say, as much eagerness and efficiency as displayed by you and

 3     Mr. Davidovic in Bijeljina and Brcko and Zvornik?  Did you hear about

 4     anybody else doing the same kind of work you were doing?

 5        A.   I don't know to what degree this happened.  I know that there

 6     were two dispatches orders.  One was signed by Dobrivoje Planojevic and

 7     another by Minister Stanisic.  So it meant that they had the force of

 8     order.  And all the officers were ordered to work in the same way that we

 9     worked in Bijeljina.  So the top of the pyramid observed the existence of

10     problems in public security centres.  Now, how much did the security

11     services from Trebinje to Prijedor do about it, I don't know.  But I do

12     know that the dispatches were sent to everybody.

13        Q.   Okay.  At page 21493, you told us that after the Yellow Wasp

14     operation in Zvornik, that Mr. Stanisic came to town, you had a meeting

15     and -- you all had a meeting and discussion with him telling him about

16     what happened.  You described how he was interested in certain colourful

17     details:  At the end of this two-hour meeting, the minister said that

18     there were problems that other municipalities were facing which called

19     for such units as those that had performed in Zvornik and that perhaps we

20     could quite specifically be in the focus, and perhaps we would have to

21     count on that, dealing with paramilitaries and criminals not only locally

22     but throughout the republic.

23             Did I understand your answer to mean that you felt like

24     Mr. Stanisic was telling you that you and Davidovic might be involved in

25     doing more of this same kind of thing in other places in the RS?

Page 21702

 1        A.   Yes.  Specifically that is true for me.  You have to bear in mind

 2     that the period that Mr. Davidovic spent there was a limited period.  He

 3     could have been withdrawn on the 13th of August or he could have stayed

 4     until the new year, so I think that the words of Mr. Stanisic pertain

 5     more to me.  I'm a soldier of the Republika Srpska MUP, and I consider

 6     that if it was necessary to do it, and I think that his intention was

 7     that I should do it, that it was I who should have taken on this task on

 8     my shoulders and that I should be a sort of fireman who would go to

 9     distinguish fires wherever it was necessary to do it.

10        Q.   Or spray the insecticide or turn on the light or whatever was

11     needed; right?  But that didn't happen, did it?  You and Mico didn't get

12     an opportunity to do any more of that kind of work?  First of all, he

13     got -- Mico was returned to Serbia, and you, shortly after, were removed

14     from the MUP; correct?

15        A.   That's correct.  Although there was a very concrete agreement.  I

16     don't know what would have happened had the Serbian MUP allowed that we

17     cross their territory.  And from Montenegro we received no reply at all.

18     And if we hadn't received the reply from the Serbian MUP, we would have

19     understood it to mean that we were free to go.  And we would very

20     probably have gone towards Cajnic; however, we were not permitted to

21     cross that territory with long barrels.  And after that you know what

22     happened to me.  I was chased away from the MUP and I did not have any

23     opportunity to take part in similar activities.

24        Q.   I think it's fair to say, or would you agree with me, that there

25     was a fairly significant back-lash against you and Mr. Davidovic coming

Page 21703

 1     from certain elements of the Serb authorities because you had arrested

 2     Serbs?

 3        A.   Listen, I wouldn't describe it this way, generally speaking, but

 4     I do have to say that this situation arose in the territory of the

 5     Bijeljina municipality mostly because of the reaction of

 6     Mr. Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, to what we were doing there.  Of course,

 7     criminals also have their ethnicity, regardless of who they are.  They

 8     were Serbs but they were also criminals, so we arrested them and expelled

 9     them.  I think that the greatest opponent to the reintroduction of peace

10     and order was Mr. Mauzer.

11             Now that I've read the article that you gave me, I most

12     definitely think so.  I think he was the one who influenced our stay in

13     the area of Semberija and Majevica, and especially my stay in that area.

14     In some of the documents, you could see that the efforts were made to

15     overcome the conflict that constantly hovered in the air between

16     Mr. Savic and the ministry, more precisely the security centre.

17             Once he sent the invitation to the ministry, inviting somebody to

18     attend the baptism of his unit, and in the office Mr. Cedo Kljajic said

19     that it would be best if some of the police members would attend this

20     baptism celebration.  We agreed that Mr. Sinisa Karan, I, and somebody

21     else should go and attend this baptism.  And even there, at this

22     celebration, there was something unpleasant for us.  I reported about it,

23     and I think that Sinisa Karan also reported about it.  In front of a full

24     hall, Mr. Mauzer highlighted me and Mico Davidovic, calling us communists

25     who came to the area of Semberija to prevent them from defending

Page 21704

 1     themselves.  So we found a way to leave the premises in order not to be

 2     confronted with much greater problems.

 3             Also on one other occasion when we went to the East Bosnia Corps

 4     command, we were intercepted by part of Mauzer's armed force.  We had to

 5     flee through some side roads and also return through some side roads.  I

 6     think that documents were compiled about that, too, and that you can

 7     still find them.  The members of the Panthers went after us with an

 8     anti-aircraft cannon, but it overturned and one of them was even killed

 9     in that incident.  In short, he was an absolute ruler of the Bijeljina

10     municipality at the time, so there was no political support for us.

11             Awhile later, I learned that before the war there were also

12     certain tensions between Mr. Davidovic and Mr. Savic.  You have to bear

13     in mind that the two of them attended the same university in Sarajevo and

14     their friendship dates from that period.  And I think that all this

15     contributed to my haste in a departure.

16             I'll be quite open.  To this very day, I'm angry at Mr. Stanisic.

17     I never forgave him and I will not forgive him what he did to me.  I did

18     not request him to return me to my job, I simply wanted to see him and I

19     requested that through his secretary, because at the time secretaries

20     were far more powerful than centre chiefs.  I wanted to speak about the

21     problems and what happened.  I looked for him in Belgrade, I looked for

22     him at Pale.  He was never there.  He was always in the field.  And I

23     never had the opportunity to sit down to him and to speak to his face and

24     to tell him, Mr. Minister, or Mico, the situation is not what you've been

25     told.  Mr. Kovac and other people told you something that is not true,

Page 21705

 1     under influence and pressure from Mr. Mauzer and others.

 2             I told you yesterday what I did.  I told you that I did

 3     everything to the highest professional level.  So I'm going to repeat it

 4     once again quite openly here in the courtroom:  I never forgave

 5     Mr. Stanisic that he never received me and the fact that he did not

 6     listen to me.  I wanted a formal, official commission by the MUP to be

 7     established to find out what happened and what did not happen.  I'm

 8     telling you again very openly:  I hope that some day I will have an

 9     opportunity to sit down with Mr. Stanisic and to discuss some of those

10     things.

11        Q.   When you told us Mr. Stanisic was in Zvornik right after the

12     Yellow Wasp operation and you were in a two-hour meeting where he was

13     present, when was the next time after that that you saw him to speak with

14     him, after early August 1992?  Do you remember?

15        A.   This is about dates again, but I'll skip the date.  You check it

16     in the documents.  I said that Mr. Stanisic, while we were briefing him

17     on our work and everything that we did, that he announced to us that

18     there were similar or identical problems in other municipalities too.

19     And in a way this was an announcement that the issue of

20     paramilitarisation must be tackled elsewhere too.

21             I don't know whether it was three or five or seven days later

22     that Mr. Kljajic told me that Mr. Stanisic wanted to talk to me, and

23     that's, I think, when Kljajic told me for the first time, in a friendly

24     manner, Brother, you should establish a unit and go to Foca, but talk

25     about these details with the minister who's waiting for you at the

Page 21706

 1     Bosanska Vila in Belgrade.

 2             The period between the first and the second meeting is one that I

 3     cannot accurately limit, because I'm bad when it comes to dates.

 4        Q.   I think you were shown the document that your meeting with

 5     Mr. Stanisic at the Bosanska Vila in Belgrade took place on the

 6     18th of August.  If you accept that, can you tell me, when was the next

 7     time you saw and spoke with Mico Stanisic after that meeting in Belgrade

 8     when you talked about Foca?  Did you see him or talk with him again in

 9     1992?

10        A.   No, sir.  As I've just said, I was removed.  And I tried to reach

11     the minister through his secretary.  I first observed the procedure, the

12     procedure that was in place earlier, because you couldn't reach the

13     minister directly.  You had to go through the chief of the

14     administration, and then he would check when the minister had time, and

15     so on, but I skipped all that.  I called up his office immediately, but

16     he wasn't there.  Leave a message, we'll get back to you; he is in the

17     field; he's in Belgrade; he's not in Belgrade.  And that's how it went.

18             So I never met Stanisic again in 1992.  I think that I didn't see

19     him again until 1994, when he invited me to the Kikinda facility at Pale

20     which I have mentioned already.

21        Q.   You told us before about your meeting with Tomo Kovac where he

22     told you that you had served your purpose and that they didn't want you

23     anymore.  Was that the only notice you got about your termination?  Did

24     you not get any paperwork from anyone indicating that you were being

25     suspended or disciplined?

Page 21707

 1        A.   Yes, it is true that I spoke to Mr. Kovac, as I have already

 2     described, and it is correct that I had done my job excellently.  But I

 3     don't need to repeat the rest.

 4             He told me that I was suspended and that there was no need for me

 5     to come to work anymore.  Then I insisted, because I know how much

 6     materiel was left behind in the gym.  Those were items that were

 7     confiscated and certificates issued for that, and there were 150 motor

 8     cars that we confiscated and stored at the Radio Yugoslavia facility.  I

 9     wanted to conduct a hand-over and make a record of it, and I believe that

10     he accepted, and he initiated the setting up of a commission consisting

11     of three persons.  So I handed all this over and I was told that I

12     needn't come to the MUP anymore and that I would be informed of any

13     subsequent measures or activities.

14             It is true, sir, that I never received a decision on my

15     suspension.  And I never received a decision on the institution of

16     disciplinary proceedings.  If you have anything to show to the contrary,

17     I would like to see it.  But I maintain that what I said is true.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll return to that a little later on.  I want to

19     ask you, What did Mr. Kovac tell you about the reason you were being

20     suspended?  Did he mention the poker machine or did he just say that you

21     weren't needed anymore?

22        A.   Well, I've described the scene, and it's engraved in my memory

23     for the rest of my life.  He was surrounded by body-guards when I

24     approached him.  And although he was my superior, I didn't address him as

25     Mr. Assistant or Comrade Assistant; I simply asked him, Tomo what is this

Page 21708

 1     supposed to mean?  He simply said, You did a professional job,

 2     excellently, but we used you as a condom for -- as a disposable condom.

 3     That's all that Mr. Kovac said to me.  I apologise for the language, but

 4     I simply quoted his words.  And he didn't state any reasons.

 5        Q.   What was his position at that time, do you know?

 6        A.   I think that at the time he was assistant minister for the

 7     police.

 8             And let me try to clarify one more thing for you and the

 9     Trial Chamber.  I wasn't necessary for Mr. Stanisic to suspend me or to

10     institute disciplinary proceedings against me.  I never received a

11     decision in Bijeljina appointing me to the position of chief of the SJB

12     or the CSB.  I always had the status of police inspector at the police

13     administration.  I'll explain how it came about that I was treated as a

14     SJB chief or CSB chief, but let me say this first:  He planted a

15     cuckoo's egg on Mr. Stanisic, like, have Mico bear the responsibility for

16     me.  But, in fact, legally speaking, if a suspension should have been

17     imposed or disciplinary proceedings launched, it should have been him.

18     He should have been the one to do that.

19             And I owe you one more clarification about my appointments at the

20     CSB and the SJB.  As you know, pursuant to a decision of the minister and

21     a dispatch, I arrived to Semberija and Majevica as an inspector, to

22     conduct audits and provide professional help and other assistance.  When

23     I came to Bijeljina, the SJB was left without a chief, and we had coffee

24     together every morning, whenever it was possible, and discussed

25     work-related matters.  I presented the problem to Mr. Kljajic.  And I

Page 21709

 1     said, Cedo, the SJB cannot operate without a chief.  And a Solomonic

 2     solution was found:  All right, you do the work until we find somebody.

 3             That's how it was done.  When we appointed the SJB chief and when

 4     that problem was solved, then we had the same kind of discussion again

 5     and I -- Mijic Davidovic said to Mr. Kljajic, Do appoint Dragan chief, at

 6     least temporarily; let him act as chief of the centre just as he acted as

 7     chief of the SJB until we find a new chief.

 8             So a decision of the minister was not required for my suspension

 9     or for disciplinary proceedings against me.  That was the duty of

10     Mr. Kovac as my superior at the police administration.  I've already said

11     that he had pulled out of it insidiously and put the blame on the

12     minister.  And then he said, Well, the -- it was the minister's orders.

13             I tried -- I have tried to explain all aspects of these events to

14     you.  I may have used too many words in the process.

15        Q.   Or for me not enough, because I'm still lacking some

16     understanding.  You -- who had the authority to initiate disciplinary

17     proceedings against you?  Was it Mr. Kovac because he was assistant

18     minister for police administration and you as an inspector were

19     subordinate to him?  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes, that is correct.  He was my superior officer.  I never got

21     an official decision about any appointment to an executive position,

22     except for the position of police inspector.  I was a member of the

23     police administration and my superior officer was Mr. Kovac.

24        Q.   And the time that you were serving as acting head of CSB in

25     Bijeljina and head of SJB in Bijeljina, that was only on the oral say-so

Page 21710

 1     of Cedo Kljajic, right, the undersecretary for public security?

 2        A.   I do not know if he requested approval from the minister, but

 3     I've already described how it went.  Do take over the job until we find

 4     another solution.  Yes, Mr. Undersecretary.  I believe it was "Mr."

 5     already; it was no longer comrade.  And then I accepted it.

 6        Q.   Did you get any kind of pay raise for being acting chief?

 7     Doesn't look like it.

 8        A.   Of course not.  And I'm not sure that the salary I was getting at

 9     the time was enough to pay for two boxes of cigarettes.  It was

10     ridiculous.

11        Q.   Okay.  So for all the hard work you did in Bijeljina and Brcko

12     and Zvornik in trying to clean up the paramilitaries and get those

13     stations running, your reward was you got suspended over a poker machine;

14     is that a short summary of what happened?

15        A.   Yes, sir.  And I would just like to add a remark; I would like to

16     have it on the record once more:  I did not take that poker machine

17     without the approval of Undersecretary Cedo Kljajic, and the

18     Official Note that you have says that pursuant to the approval of the

19     undersecretary, the poker machine was taken from the storage.  And I've

20     already explained why I took it.  When I was removed from my position, I

21     also returned that poker machine.  You never asked me about it, but I do

22     want to add that.

23             I and some five or six people who had come took some household

24     appliances from the storage to use in the houses that were allotted to

25     us.  I also returned those household appliances that I had taken out of

Page 21711

 1     the storage, and I even went to buy 5 kilograms of washing soap because

 2     that was the quantity that I had taken out of our storage for my wife to

 3     be able to do the laundry for me and our kids.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I just want to note that the page 75,

 5     line 15, when it starts after "a short summary what happened," and then

 6     "yes, sir" should be recorded as answer, and it was recorded as a

 7     question of you, Mr. Hannis.  Thank you.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  That's correct.  And then the rest of it, following

 9     "yes, sir" is a continuation of his answer.  I agree.

10        Q.   I know that's important to you, Mr. Andan, and perhaps tomorrow

11     before I finish I will return to ask you a couple of questions about it

12     or documents related to that, but I want to go back to the Yellow Wasp

13     operation for a moment.

14             You're generally aware of the information that was obtained as a

15     result of taking statements from all those Yellow Wasps who were arrested

16     and detained; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.  That requires clarification too.  I've already said that we

18     didn't have enough professionals to process those individuals adequately.

19     Mr. Kljajic requested assistance from the minister to deploy some

20     professionals, and that's when Mr. Goran Macar arrived in Bijeljina, who

21     was chief of the crime police, and he was accompanied by half a dozen or

22     maybe as many as ten inspectors who processed those individuals.

23             I see that it isn't recorded anywhere, but the

24     National Security Service also got involved.  And apart from the crime

25     aspect, the national security members from Zvornik interviewed Zuco and,

Page 21712

 1     I think, one or two more persons, but I don't know what they were

 2     interested in.

 3        Q.   Do you recall that some of the information that came out of these

 4     interviews indicated that Malko Koroman had been stopped at the

 5     check-point run by the Yellow Wasp at some point in time, I think

 6     transporting some Golf vehicles, and that subsequent to that Zuco and

 7     some of his men had gone to Pale and received weapons from the SJB in

 8     Pale and met with Mrs. Plavsic or Minister Subotic?  Did you know about

 9     that information that came out?

10        A.   There has been a slight interpretation mistake again.  The name

11     is not "Marko" Koroman, it's "Malko" Koroman.

12             But yes, I do have some information.  I believe that

13     Malko Koroman came to Zvornik from Pale with a very definite idea in his

14     mind, that he and his friends be returned some cars that Zuco had earlier

15     taken away at a check-point.  As far as I remember the information, and

16     to the extent it was available to me, the agreement was that the vehicles

17     should be taken over and Zuco would get some quantity of weapons in

18     return.  I don't believe that the weapons that he needed could be found

19     at the police station, so it had to go through a TO staff or it had to be

20     taken from a military unit.  I know, based on the information that was

21     available to me then, that Zuco had set up contact with Ms. Plavsic, but,

22     frankly speaking, I do not remember Mr. Subotic.

23        Q.   And did the information indicate that Zuco and his men had

24     received weapons in Pale through the auspices of Mr. Koroman?

25        A.   They did get the weapons that he had requested, as far as I

Page 21713

 1     remember.

 2        Q.   Do you know if Mr. Koroman was subject to any disciplinary or

 3     criminal process related to this activity on his part?

 4        A.   I don't know because upon the completion of that operation, I

 5     left the ministry.  I've already described the circumstances, or maybe

 6     we'll discuss it additionally, but that period to me is a black hole.  I

 7     would prefer forgetting all about it, but I seem unable to.  I don't know

 8     what happened to Malko Koroman later.

 9        Q.   I think you told us the other day, though, that you were aware

10     that the minister had attempted to remove Malko Koroman.  And I want to

11     ask you, first of all, which minister are you referring to?  Was that

12     Mico Stanisic that tried to remove him?

13        A.   I have a request - I have digestive problems - I can answer this

14     question, but if I could be excused later on, I would be grateful.

15             Yes, I was referring to Mico Stanisic.  I have already described

16     that.  He issued an order, written or oral, to replace Mr. Koroman.  When

17     the officials who were authorised to hand over that decision arrived at

18     the Pale SJB, armed people gathered.  I stated the number of 3.000.

19     Well, that may be an exaggeration, but it was a large number of people.

20     And they didn't allow that.  They even chased out those people from the

21     police station.  They didn't allow Mr. Koroman to be removed.

22             Immediately after that, Mr. Karadzic also got involved.  And

23     that's how Malko Koroman remained in his position.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.  Let me stop you there and ask that we take

25     the break a minute or two early.  And we'll resume tomorrow.  Thank you.

Page 21714

 1             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.43 p.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day

 5                           of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.