Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21832

 1                           Monday, 6 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we take the appearances today,

11     please.

12             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

13     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  For

15     the Stanisic Defence team, Slobodan Cvijetic, Tatjana Savic, and

16     Eugene O'Sullivan.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic for

18     Zupljanin Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Ms. Korner.

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, before the witness comes in, and in

22     order to save argument at a later stage, can I raise one matter relating

23     to the evidence that I understand that he's going to give.

24             Your Honours may have seen in the 65 ter statement for this

25     witness -- first of all, I understand the length of examination-in-chief

Page 21833

 1     has gone up, for which I believe the Defence need your leave, from eight

 2     to ten hours.  Second, according to the 65 ter summary, this witness is

 3     going to provide a detailed account, and I emphasise the word "detailed,"

 4     of the situation in the SJB Novo Sarajevo prior to April 1992 and the

 5     attack on that SJB in April 1992.  Your Honours, it is not within the

 6     realms of the indictment, this particular municipality or SJB, so at the

 7     moment we say it's objectionable to lead evidence on that because it

 8     isn't relevant.

 9             Your Honours, secondly, I've had a remarkable e-mail which

10     alleges that it is a proofing note.  It says that the witness will

11     explain his role in drafting some of the RS MUP regulations, that's fine,

12     and the planning of the Foca action.

13             Now, Your Honours, two matters.  Firstly, it is not good enough

14     to talk about saying "planning of the Foca action" without explaining

15     what on earth that means or what it is to cover.  And secondly, Foca is

16     also not a municipality in this indictment.  So, Your Honours, at the

17     moment, may I make it clear, I object to this evidence.  As I say, rather

18     than waiting for it to start, I thought it would be simpler to deal with

19     it now.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Cvijetic.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as far as the first

23     objection is concerned, you know that we dealt with this situation in

24     Sarajevo immediately before the outbreak of the war, and that is part of

25     the general context of the events.  The witness will link that with his

Page 21834

 1     departure from Sarajevo and the reasons for that departure.  We have

 2     heard evidence on that already, and this witness is possibly the most

 3     competent to speak about it because he was a member of the police station

 4     which was immediately attacked and he was actually a victim, which also

 5     triggered some subsequent events.  And these are also some reasons why

 6     the joint MUP stopped functioning.  This is also a topic we dealt with,

 7     and it is also a prominent topic in the indictment.

 8             As far as the second objection is concerned, and it pertains to

 9     the contents of the witness's evidence, we did state in a proofing note

10     that he would speak about his participation in the drafting of some

11     regulations in the MUP.

12             As for the planned Foca operation, it is part of the context of

13     his evidence about field trips in the capacity of an inspector of the

14     Crime Prevention and Combatting Administration, and the bulk of his

15     testimony is about that.  Among other field trips and visits, he will

16     also mention the plans to take part in that operation.  I also believe

17     that the previous witness introduced this element that this witness who

18     is about to testify was supposed to take part in the operation to arrest

19     some persons.  Among other SJBs, he visited Foca, Cajnice, and all the

20     others that are contained in the indictment.  In the context of these

21     visits and field trips, he will mention Foca, but no more than that.  You

22     needn't worry, we will not unduly waste time on that.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that is still -- firstly, my objection

24     still stands.  Secondly, he hasn't explained what he is talking about

25     with the Foca operation.  If this is what the witness is going to talk

Page 21835

 1     about and this is completely brand new evidence, we should have had a

 2     full account in the proofing note of what it was the witness was going to

 3     say.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber is labouring under a bit of a handicap

 7     in that we haven't yet seen the proofing note in respect of this witness.

 8     So in terms of the exchange between the Bench and counsel on each side,

 9     we aren't sure exactly to what extent Ms. Korner's complaint, for want of

10     a better word, about being handicapped is -- how the -- the strength of

11     that objection.

12             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honours, it was sent

13     to -- it's not a proofing note at all --

14             It's not a proofing note at all, it's an e-mail sent to

15     Ms. Featherstone; Mr. Dygeus, who I don't believe is here; myself;

16     Mr. Smith; Mr. Cvijetic, for some reason --

17             JUDGE HALL:  The same three-line summary or thereabouts?

18             MS. KORNER:  It says:  "Dear all, please be advised that MS-008

19     will also explain his role in drafting some of the RS MUP regulations,"

20     without explaining what that role was, which regulations.  "And," and I'm

21     reading, "planning of the 'Foca action.'"  That's it.

22             This --

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Now that we are all on the same page in

24     the same hymn-book, let me hear from Mr. Cvijetic.

25             MS. KORNER:  Right.  And should I -- I should add this,

Page 21836

 1     Mr. Cvijetic will ask for ten hours.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, having regard to the purpose that a

 3     proofing note serves, both as notice to the side opposite and in terms of

 4     assisting the Chamber, isn't there a serious deficiency here?

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I don't see a

 6     problem at all.  We announced what the witness would speak about, and we

 7     are not supposed to submit his complete statement or interview.  It is

 8     enough -- an outline is enough.  The Prosecution knows what the witness

 9     is familiar with and about what from their contacts with him.  We did

10     not -- our motion was not that the witness should be a witness under a

11     92 ter.  So he will speak about the same things that he spoke about to

12     the OTP and the topics that I mentioned in that note.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, really, Mr. Cvijetic knows that none of

14     this was covered.  His interview says, I did nothing except have cups of

15     coffee, effectively, all over the place.  None of what is contained in

16     this one line was ever dealt with in the interview.

17             Now, Mr. Cvijetic can explain verbally now, if he wants to, what

18     the Foca action is meant to cover, but it is to give us proper notice of

19     what the witness is to say.  That is the purpose of a proofing note.

20     That gives us no indication.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  And, if I may add, the Chamber has, at several

22     occasions, asked also to be given copies of the background information so

23     as to allow the Chambers to familiarise themselves with the evidence

24     before the witness appears in court.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm being informed

Page 21837

 1     that we submitted the witness interview and in that interview he speaks

 2     about the planned operation of the Special Police, and he also tried to

 3     locate it in time and state the reasons and so on.  I listened to a tape

 4     recording of his statement several times and we submitted the interview

 5     too, and that is what I'm talking about.  The relevant pages are 28, 29,

 6     and 30 of his interview.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's the reference to it again.  He

 8     was asked about war activities.  But as far as I can see, it's nothing to

 9     do with Foca.  In any event, Your Honours, my objection still stands, the

10     whole thing.  Foca has nothing to do with the indictment.  Novo Sarajevo

11     has nothing to do with the indictment.  Foca, certainly, as Your Honours

12     may know, there was a whole trial over what happened in Foca.  And to

13     start opening that up, Your Honours, you may think would not be of

14     assistance to anybody.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let us bring in the witness.  But before the

18     witness comes, the Chamber is mindful of the obligation of counsel to

19     limit himself within the scope of the indictment.

20             Now, Mr. Cvijetic, if you wish to embark upon anything that has

21     to do with Novo Sarajevo or Foca, then you have to be offering to us an

22     explanation as to just why you do so and what exactly it is that you wish

23     to raise in relation to these two locations.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the Prosecution

25     is willing to give up the topic of the causes and reasons for the

Page 21838

 1     break-up of the former Ministry of the Interior of the Socialist

 2     Republic of socialist [as interpreted] Herzegovina, I will not deal with

 3     that topic.  We are discussing the causes and reasons for the break-up of

 4     the MUP, and witnesses have been heard about that, and nobody has so far

 5     been prevented to testify about the events preceding that break-up.  This

 6     witness would be the first one to be prohibited to speak about it.

 7             As for Foca, we will not discuss Foca but with the role and task

 8     of the Crime Prevention Department in the processing and prosecution of

 9     paramilitaries, their detention, et cetera, which also was the goal of a

10     preceding action, the one in Zvornik, and that was also the goal of the

11     one that was planned for Foca.  His task was to lead the group of

12     inspectors who were to lead the -- or who were to be members of the group

13     for the processing of the perpetrators.

14             I will only ask him about the preparations, his preparations for

15     that operation, and that will be all because the operation never took

16     place.  We will never even enter Foca, as it were.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, allow me to say that all these

18     discussions could probably have been avoided if we would have been

19     provided with a proper proofing note.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Madam Usher, please bring in the witness.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Orasanin.  Do I pronounce that

23     correctly?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You do hear me in a language you understand,

Page 21839

 1     don't you?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your

 4     testimony.  You are about to read a solemn declaration by which witnesses

 5     commit themselves to tell the truth.  I need to point out that the solemn

 6     declaration that you are about to make does expose you to the penalties

 7     of perjury should you give misleading or untruthful evidence to this

 8     Tribunal.

 9             Now then, would you please be kind enough to read aloud the

10     solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS: MILOMIR ORASANIN

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, sir.  You may be seated.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could we begin by asking you to state your full

18     name and your date and place of birth, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Milomir Orasanin.  I was

20     born on 8 June, 1954, in Zljebovi, which is in the municipality of

21     Sokolac.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  And what is your ethnicity?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.  I'm a Serb by

24     ethnicity and an Orthodox Christian.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what is your profession today?

Page 21840

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a pensioner.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what was your occupation in 1992?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 I was a crime prevention

 4     inspector in the MUP of Republika Srpska.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Now, sir, is this your

 6     first testimony before this Tribunal or have you ever testified before

 7     this Tribunal or in a tribunal of your country about these matters, the

 8     matters relating to the 1992 war?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I'm giving

10     evidence in a trial about these matters.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay then.  Let me explain to you briefly how the

12     proceedings will unfold here.  You have been called as a witness by the

13     Defence for Mr. Stanisic.  Mr. Cvijetic, who is sitting to your left,

14     Mr. Cvijetic has asked for altogether eight or ten hours.  I don't know

15     whether the ten-hour request has already been made.

16             And after Mr. Cvijetic finishes his examination-in-chief,

17     Mr. Krgovic, who is Defence counsel for Stojan Zupljanin, will

18     cross-examine you.  And the OTP will cross-examine you.  Which will take,

19     in total, as we can estimate it for the moment, around five or six hours.

20     After that, we give the floor once again to Mr. Stanisic Defence.  And

21     after that, and during the course of all other examinations, the Judges

22     may have questions for you.

23             There is a practical matter.  The recordings of these proceedings

24     are such -- the technical conditions are such that we need to take breaks

25     every 90 minutes, and we'll take a break, a 20-minute break, after every

Page 21841

 1     90 minutes.  And we sit from 9.00 in the morning until a quarter to 2.00

 2     every day.

 3             So that's all I have to say to you.  And I give the floor to

 4     Mr. Cvijetic.

 5             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I don't know if

 6     Your Honours -- I'm sorry, I don't think Your Honours gave him a warning.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I certainly did.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Oh, did you?  Oh, I missed that, sorry.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I do it, Ms. Korner, before the witness reads the

10     solemn declaration.

11             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm sorry, I completely

12     missed that.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours?

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           Examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Orasanin.

18        A.   [No verbal response]

19        Q.   Have you replied?  I didn't hear you.

20        A.   I did.

21        Q.   Do speak up so we can hear you.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, in the introductory portion of the

24     examination-in-chief, it is common for a witness to tell us something

25     about his life and resume, and I would appreciate it if you could tell

Page 21842

 1     the Trial Chamber chronologically when and where it was that you started

 2     working, what your career path was.  And if you skip anything, then I

 3     will ask you about it, but please do try and speak in a paced manner.

 4        A.   Well, thank you.  After I completed elementary school in 1973, I

 5     completed the Police Academy at the intermediate level and I worked as a

 6     police officer at this city SUP.  In 1976 up until 1978, I went to a

 7     police academy at a college level and at that time I was appointed as

 8     junior inspector in the crime department.  From 1981 or 1982 up until

 9     1985, I went to university and I completed and received a university

10     degree in political science, and I was appointed as deputy commander at a

11     police station for public security in Novo Sarajevo, following which I

12     was appointed as the chief of the Crime Prevention Department in

13     Novo Sarajevo, and I remained in that post up until 1992, in other words,

14     until the beginning of the war.

15             In addition, I also worked, between is 1975 and 1976, as a clerk

16     for crime prevention.  Perhaps I skipped that portion, I don't know.  So

17     to just recap:  When the war broke out, I was the chief of the

18     Crime Prevention Department in Novo Sarajevo, and this

19     Public Security Station was part of the Centre for Public Security in

20     Sarajevo.

21             When the war broke out in 1992, I worked as an inspector, a crime

22     prevention inspector, in the newly-established administration of the

23     RS MUP, and I remained in that post until, as far as I can recall, the

24     20th of November, 1992, when I was appointed commander or chief of the

25     Department for Border Affairs, and I remained in that position up until

Page 21843

 1     the 11th of March, 1988 [as interpreted].  In 1988, I was the deputy of

 2     the chief of public security in Zvornik up until the 31st December,

 3     1990 -- 2001.  2001, apologies.

 4        Q.   I have to interrupt you here to clarify something in the

 5     transcript.  It says here that you were appointed to this post in 1988;

 6     is that an error?  Could you try and recall.

 7        A.   Well, in 1988 I was the chief of the Crime Prevention Department

 8     in the Public Security Station of Novo Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   Yes, but the question was when were you appointed to the Zvornik

10     duty where you remained up until 2001 as you said?

11        A.   Well, this came immediately after the election.  The election --

12     the general elections were in 1997.  And then in 1998, in March, I

13     believe the letter of appointment said the 11th of March, I'm not -- I

14     can't recall the exact date, but I think that's what it says there, and I

15     remained in that duty up in until the 31st of December, 2001.  That is my

16     precise answer.

17        Q.   Well, no, no, the reason I interfere was because we had in the

18     transcript "1988."

19        A.   Well, that's an error.

20        Q.   Very well.  Please go on.

21        A.   In 2001, from December 31st, I was appointed to the Intelligence

22     Security Service, and I remained there for three years, when a joint

23     service was established for the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I

24     retired in -- or, rather, I stopped working on 31st December, 2004, when

25     I prepared for retirement and I became a pensioner.  And I am no longer

Page 21844

 1     on active duty.  I am a retired person and no longer work.

 2        Q.   How old were you when you started working?

 3        A.   Well, we started working right after elementary school.  This was

 4     the first generation of the first class of the academy, the police

 5     academy, and I -- we were actually all accepted to work as junior police

 6     officers.  We were still under age, practically.  And when I turned 18, I

 7     began working in the full -- to the full extent.

 8        Q.   Well, as far as I can see, your entire career was in the

 9     Ministry of the Interior?

10        A.   That's correct.  My entire career was within the Ministry of the

11     Interior.

12        Q.   Can we please make sure that once I complete my question you just

13     pause briefly and then start answering.  Perhaps you can take a look at

14     the screen and that should help you.  If you can see, there's a cursor

15     there.

16        A.   I can't see anything.

17        Q.   Well, the usher will come and assist you in a moment.

18        A.   Yes, now I can -- I see the text before me.

19        Q.   Now, the police academy and your generation, your class, can you

20     remember any other people who would later on be on higher positions in

21     the Ministry of the Interior in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina?  Could you just mention a few names that you went to school

23     together?

24        A.   Yes, my apologies, but I just have to say that the text that I

25     see before me is in English.

Page 21845

 1        Q.   Well, you will be able to figure out when I have completed my

 2     question and that's all you need.  You don't need to see the text.

 3             So do you recall my question?

 4        A.   Yes.  The question was who was in the first generation of the

 5     police academy, the cadets there.  So I can name a few.  Now, this was

 6     the first class that was graduated from the Ministry of the Interior

 7     school.  It was multi-ethnic to reflect the national -- the ethnic

 8     structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And I know that, for instance,

 9     Leotar, Jozo was in my generation, or, rather, Jozo Leotar.  Ismet Dahic,

10     Mico Stanisic, Momo Mandic, Tomislav Planojevic, then a man by the name

11     of Stevanovic, Tomislav Vucic, Zivadin [as interpreted] Tutus,

12     Azim Hurtic, Ahmed Mijazomic [phoen], and others.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I just wanted to check whether Mr. Stanisic was in

14     that same class, that's all.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, you did the job that you mentioned here and you

17     remained in that job after the multi-ethnic elections.  Did you observe

18     any changes within the Ministry of the Interior after the multi-party

19     elections, and, if so, could you tell us what kind of changes?

20        A.   Thank you for asking that.  As I've already told you, I was the

21     chief for crime prevention in Novo Sarajevo at the time.  There were

22     14 to 15 inspectors who were my subordinates.  This was a multi-ethnic

23     group.  There were Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, and we all worked together as

24     a team.  It was a homogenous group.

25             After the multi-party elections, our job was far more difficult

Page 21846

 1     in terms of security because we did our job within the framework of the

 2     law and it was our job to prevent crime, and we dealt with general crime

 3     and crimes against property, and we had numerous cases.  We observed that

 4     in security terms the conditions of work were in jeopardy, so we were no

 5     longer able to work properly.  In other words, we were between a rock and

 6     a hard place, if I can put it that way.  There were criminals.  Criminals

 7     became very prominent in those days.  The courts and the prosecutors were

 8     inefficient.  I don't know the reasons for that.  And as for working

 9     conditions, we also did not have sufficient means to deal with the crime.

10     We didn't have enough fuel or other equipment, especially forensic

11     equipment, and all the other items that you need to use during an

12     investigation.

13             Later on, we observed that some criminal groups were acting

14     jointly and they were homogenous.  They were dominant at the time.  And

15     because of the difficulty in our work, we were actually unable to work

16     efficiently.  And as I've said a little earlier, and I can't recall all

17     the names, but we did conduct analysis of all this and it was always the

18     same groups that we arrested.  And the event that had to do with the

19     attack on the police station had -- was in that same vein.  So all I can

20     say is that we worked around the clock but the courts and the prosecutors

21     were inefficient, ineffective in their work, and we had no resources for

22     our work.

23             There were -- well, before the war we called these groups

24     organised criminal groups and they engaged both in crimes against

25     property, that was the term, the legal term that was used, but there were

Page 21847

 1     also groups that were a bit more hardcore.  They also engaged in

 2     robberies and aggravated crimes including violent conduct.  I know that

 3     they had ties to some of our men because we could see them, people who

 4     still worked in our service.

 5             What I'm trying to say is that after the multi-party elections,

 6     various parties liked to promote their own men so that in effect we had

 7     no support.  Alija Delimustafic became the head of the ministry.  And all

 8     these people were party people.  And I have to say, there were people

 9     from all ethnic groups.  They all tried to push their own men forward so

10     that we were left to our own resources and to our own devices in fighting

11     the criminal groups.  This was so on a daily basis.

12             I can mention here Juka Prazina, Ismet Bajramovic Celo, whom I

13     know personally because in 1982 I was an operative and I was in charge of

14     a criminal investigation that was completed some six or seven months

15     later, and this criminal group was indicted and they received very high

16     sentences, prison sentence, but -- and this was in the former Yugoslavia.

17     So that's why I know -- that's how I know these people.  And I know that

18     the minister, too, had ties to them because he used to be a police

19     officer and then he left the service.  So there were ties with Ismet

20     Bajramovic Celo.  But later on, perhaps, I can answer your questions,

21     because I don't want to be too long in my reply.

22        Q.   I have to interrupt you for a moment.  Please tell us just a few

23     words about the personnel policy within the ministry.  Who was in charge

24     for the personnel and human resources policy within the ministry after

25     the multi-party elections?

Page 21848

 1        A.   Well, as I've already mentioned, after the multi-party elections,

 2     in my assessment, but I don't know if I'm the competent person to speak

 3     about this, I'm just saying what I think, well, but in my view the

 4     personnel policy was bad.  Some new people came on board and everyone

 5     tried to bring their own stooges, so that the personnel policy in the

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP was conducted by Selmo -- by Hilmo Selimovic.

 7     Then there was Bruno Stojic who was chief of one of the administrations,

 8     I can't recall exactly which one.  And then there was a Mirsad person.

 9     He was the key man in the personnel department.  Hilmo Selimovic was in

10     charge of the administration; he was a deputy minister.  But his

11     immediate subordinate was Mirsad Srebrenkovic who was the key personnel

12     man, so that I know about some of their choices and some of the

13     activities that they engaged in.

14        Q.   Well, I would like to ask you about those decisions, personnel

15     appointments, that they actually made.  What did they reflect, and did

16     they in any way interfere with the personnel policy at the time?

17        A.   Yes, it was obvious and it was a general rule, they didn't adhere

18     to the criteria for the manning of the reserve police force.  Everybody

19     was taking on board their own people.  The reserve police force was

20     manned ad hoc.  The procedure wasn't respected.  I know that in the

21     territory covered by our SJB it was like that, and the same goes for

22     Stari Grad.  The ethnic composition was not reflected.  As far as I

23     remember, only one or two Serbs were active-duty officers there.  The

24     chief of the police station was Ismet Dahic.

25             In Novo Sarajevo, the commanders of the local communities were

Page 21849

 1     the most important people for security.  Eighty per cent of the

 2     information from public security went through these people, the

 3     commanders of local communities and sector chiefs.  In Novo Sarajevo

 4     there were only two Serbs and one Croat.  There were 18 commanders of

 5     local communities or sector chiefs.  And I noticed that the national --

 6     or ethnic balance was tipped.  It was very obvious.  It wasn't a secret

 7     at all.  We couldn't really operate in a homogenous manner as we did

 8     before.

 9        Q.   Very well.  And now, very briefly, did you have intelligence from

10     that period about people being sent to police training in Croatia by the

11     SDA party?

12        A.   Yes, there was such intelligence.  Actually, it was almost a

13     public thing because we spoke about it.  A group of officers was sent to

14     Croatia for training, and it went through Mirsad.  As far as I know, they

15     later worked in Sarajevo.

16        Q.   But there was a police training school at Vraca from which you

17     graduated, so how do you explain the fact that a political party was

18     sending candidates for police training?  Just briefly.

19             MS. KORNER:  Just a moment.  I didn't object to the first leading

20     question, "Did you have intelligence about that period about people being

21     sent to police training in -- by the SDA party?"  Now he asks: "How do

22     you explain the fact that a political party was sending candidates for

23     police training?"  He didn't actually say that a political party had sent

24     them for police training.  He said somebody called Mirsad, whoever Mirsad

25     may be, was sent to Croatia for training.  So these questions must be

Page 21850

 1     asked in non-leading form.  This is your witness.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Who organised this training and who drafted or compiled the lists

 4     of candidates for the training?

 5        A.   As far as I know, it was a parallel process that took place

 6     outside the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They were located somewhere on

 7     Bascarsija and they acted through Ismet Dahic, but Mirsad was a MUP

 8     member.  And it was upon their nomination that they were sent for

 9     training.  That's the information I have.  But Hilmo Selimovic was chief

10     of the personnel administration, whereas Mirsad was also a personnel

11     executive.  So without them it wouldn't have been possible.

12             That would be my answer.

13        Q.   You mentioned the name Mirsad several times.  Please tell us his

14     family name.

15        A.   Srebrenkovic.

16        Q.   Very well.  I will move on to the security situation.  Not after

17     the multi-party elections, but in 1992, immediately before, open war

18     broke out.  Did anything change with regard to security in 1992 in

19     Sarajevo?

20        A.   Yes.  When the security situation had been disrupted, we got

21     information that some criminal groups were armed.  I know that.  I know

22     some of them personally because I worked on [as interpreted] some of

23     them, and they had ties with Musan Topalovic, Caco.  He commanded one

24     unit.  I believe that they were 360 in all.  They also had ties with Juka

25     Prazina.  I know Juka Prazina personally because our inspectors processed

Page 21851

 1     him a number of times and I was their superior.  And as I said, one group

 2     had ties with Ismet Bajramovic, also known as Celo.

 3             Those groups were armed.  Under the law or laws and regulations

 4     and the constitution, they should have been considered terrorist groups

 5     since they were armed.  And our service was duty-bound to prevent their

 6     activities.  And not only the activities of those groups, but any armed

 7     individuals.  We were supposed to disarm them and process them.  That was

 8     the general attitude.

 9             But before the war, and our police station was attacked on the

10     night of the 4th, but before the war, or a day or two before, it was a

11     time when I had some 15 operatives, Juka Prazina and his unit entered the

12     police social centre, and on the following day the Novo Sarajevo

13     Police Station was attacked.  As far as I know, that group was led by one

14     "Puska."  I'm certain that they had come from Stari Grad in two vans and

15     they changed in the immediate vicinity by the paramedical facility.

16        Q.   Just tell us how that attack ended.

17        A.   One person was killed, and the duty police officer from the

18     station was kidnapped.

19        Q.   What's the name of the police officer who was killed?

20        A.   Pero Petrovic was killed, and Lazar Bojanic was on duty shift at

21     the police station.

22             Maybe I should clarify the role of the duty officer.  At a police

23     station, the duty officer is the most important person for monitoring the

24     security situation in the territory when the commander and the deputy are

25     absent, that is, after regular working hours.  All information, all

Page 21852

 1     reports go through that person.  He basically ran everything.  The

 2     commander gave him assignments and there were people out on the beat

 3     patrolling and everybody else who was on that particular shift.  In

 4     Novo Sarajevo, I think that there were 25 to 30 police officers in all.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's cut that short a bit.  After these events, was

 6     it possible to remain in a joint MUP, for you personally?

 7        A.   Well, I was assessing the situation.  And I have already said

 8     that there was -- we were a multi-ethnic organisation.  There was mutual

 9     trust among Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats.  Our ties never really broke,

10     the ties among us.  But we were all afraid of these criminal groups.  We

11     were supposed to process them.  They all had their police files.  There

12     were several reports against each one of them.  And no matter whether the

13     detective from our ranks was a Bosniak, a Serb, or a Croat, he was

14     afraid.

15             Our premises were broken into, everything had been taken out, and

16     we were afraid for our personal safety.

17        Q.   What is the immediate reason for your departure?  Did these

18     groups that you mentioned threaten you?

19        A.   Well, it was obvious.  On the eve of the war, it was a weekend.

20     I went to the country-side, that's what I usually did on weekends, and I

21     made or drafted a schedule of operative work, but then a group broke into

22     the station, and Zeljko Rakic was the duty officer at the time.  He saw

23     all that.  He was -- he wanted to cross the street but then he noticed a

24     man in the shadow by a bank.  That's the night when that murder happened.

25     And the offices were broken into.  All documents were taken out.  And

Page 21853

 1     then I understood that I wasn't safe and that there was no place for me

 2     anymore.  I didn't return.

 3             Later, somebody broke into my apartment in Dobrinja.  I don't

 4     know if I should speak about it now or later.

 5        Q.   This will do for the time.  After this burglar entered your

 6     apartment and these events, what ensued?  Did you stay in Sarajevo?  And

 7     when did you leave?

 8        A.   As I said, just before that event it so happened that I went to

 9     the country-side with my family and I stayed there for two or three

10     weeks.  My apartment was broken into some 10 or 15 days after that, so I

11     felt unsafe and I understood that there was no place for me there

12     anymore.  I understood that there was no reason for me to go back to my

13     office because whatever we had done before we were unable to continue

14     doing.  And it wouldn't have been logical for me to return to the office

15     where I used to work.  And that's what the others did, too.  I was afraid

16     for my safety.  Afraid for my life, actually.

17        Q.   Did you - and, if so, when - join the newly-established MUP of

18     the RS?

19        A.   Yes.  I spent three or four weeks in the country-side.  And

20     later, as time passed by, I learned that the RS MUP was being

21     established.  And it was a logical thing.  To my mind there were two

22     options: either you go for the MUP or for the army.  I opted for the MUP

23     because that's all I can do.  And I think I'm trained for that kind of

24     job.

25        Q.   When did you actually report to work at the RS MUP?

Page 21854

 1        A.   As far as I remember, it was in early May.  I don't remember the

 2     exact date, but it was in early May.  I'm sure of that.  It may have been

 3     on the 3rd or 4th.  I found Cedo Kljajic there and some others.  And the

 4     decision of my appointment was dated April, but I only reported for work

 5     in May.  That period was not covered.  It was still the organisational

 6     phase.

 7        Q.   Who did you find there, I mean, the personnel, and what were the

 8     working conditions like at the newly-established MUP?  Where did you go,

 9     who did you find there, what did you do, what kind of materiel and

10     equipment did you have and so on?

11        A.   Thank you for asking.  It was the very beginning.  And as for the

12     working conditions, well, there weren't really any working conditions at

13     all.  I found Cedo Kljajic there, Dobro Planojevic.  And Dobro said to me

14     that Mico Stanisic was minister, that a crime enforcement administration

15     was being set up, but there was a shortage of personnel.  We didn't have

16     any equipment there, no vehicles, no materiel.  We were told to sit in

17     the Kalovita Brda facility; that's at Pale.  It was some sort of a scouts

18     facility.  There were a couple of offices there, a telephone, and that's

19     about it.

20             Dobro said to me that the minister had ordered that we should

21     establish a professional crime enforcement administration and that we

22     should find personnel.  It was the very start.  And that was our task

23     that followed from the order of the minister and the laws and

24     regulations.  And I asked, Well, how do we go about it?  We don't even

25     have a typewriter.  And then he said, Well, we'll find a way.  And then

Page 21855

 1     he said that at Energoinvest in Lukavica there was something.  And I

 2     brought a typewriter from there.

 3             So we started from scratch actually.  And three services were to

 4     begin operating: the police administration headed by Vlastimir Kusmuk,

 5     then the crime enforcement service headed by Dobro Planojevic, and

 6     national security.  I think it was headed by Slobodan Skipina.  We had

 7     four men at the very beginning.  I, Dobro, we were later joined by

 8     Nikola Milanovic.  Later on I'll speak about personnel.  There was

 9     Ratko Kapetanovic and Milan Ostojic.  We were looking for people because

10     we were short of people.  And the orders were clear, and they were based

11     on the law and the minister's order.  But as I said, we started from

12     scratch.  So we had a problem.

13        Q.   Very well.  I'll show you a document.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I don't know where we're going with this, but I

15     would suggest that you focus.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

17        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, I will show you a document.  That's a

18     65 ter document.  10D1.  That's under tab 3.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And my apologies, if I could have

20     the assistance of the usher to provide this binder to the witness.

21             I don't think we have the right document.  We need 65 ter 10D1.

22        Q.   Mr. Orasanin.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Would you please take a look at this document.

25        A.   This document 120?

Page 21856

 1        Q.   Don't mind the numbers.  Just look at the document.

 2        A.   Is this under number 3?

 3        Q.   Yes, tab 3.

 4             So here we see a list of employees who worked in the

 5     Ministry of the Interior at the headquarters in May, in the month of May.

 6     And as we can see, there is a breakdown according to administration.  At

 7     the bottom of page 1, we see the Crime Prevention Administration; is that

 8     your administration?

 9        A.   Yes.  If you allow me to explain, this is the Crime Prevention

10     Administration.  We see that there's Dobrisav Planojevic.  It says here

11     that he's assistant minister.  And then we have Goran Macar,

12     co-ordinator; Nikola Milanovic, inspector; Milomir Orasanin, inspector.

13     This was in the month of May, in other words, in the early days of

14     establishing the Crime Administration, and this is a list of employees

15     for the month of May.  There is no need to comment on it.

16             Now, we also see the Police Administration; that's the other

17     administration or service that was at Kalovita Brda.  Then there's

18     Vladimir -- we see Vlastimir Kusmuk, Milos Zuban --

19        Q.   You don't need to read.

20             So we see there were only four men in your administration;

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Very well.  Can you recall what kind of work you did at that

24     time, in the month of May, your administration?

25        A.   Well, in the month of May our job was really just to orientate

Page 21857

 1     ourselves in -- during the process of establishing the Crime Prevention

 2     Administration.  That means that we were supposed to draw up a kind of

 3     blueprint in order to operate within the bounds of the law.  We were

 4     preparing the departments, employment, various regulations that we had to

 5     abide by that related to the Crime Prevention Department.  The legal --

 6     the regulations and the bylaws had not been drawn up yet.  They were

 7     still -- we were still in the process of preparing all those documents.

 8     They had to do with the work of the Crime Prevention Administration, but

 9     we were in the process of drawing up various documents, legal documents,

10     that actually guided the work of the Crime Police Administration.  But

11     because we had insufficient means and resources, our first task was to

12     try and get the right personnel.  So we were looking for people who could

13     work as inspectors in the field in public security stations and public

14     security centres; however, there were problems in that because we could

15     not really go out in the field.  And I will get back to this a little

16     later to explain what kind of difficulties were there.  But as far as I

17     can recall, this was pursuant to an order from the minister,

18     Minister Stanisic, who told him that we had a free hand, that we could

19     set up our administration in any way we wished, and that it should work

20     within legal provisions.

21        Q.   Very well.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if there are no

23     objections, I would tender this document into evidence.

24             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, it would be a bit otiose because

25     if Mr. Cvijetic looks at P867, you'll see the same document but with

Page 21858

 1     signatures, which seems to be slightly more appropriate than this one.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the document that I'm

 3     tendering is a seven-page document, and it contains and lists all

 4     administrations within the Ministry of Interior.  The document that

 5     Ms. Korner is referring to is a two-page document.  Now, if you look at

 6     this, you will see that there are listed all administrations at the

 7     headquarters of the Ministry of the Interior, and what is relevant here

 8     is that we see the structure of the ministry in those early days.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  And to what end is it being offered, Mr. Cvijetic?

10             MS. KORNER:  And, Your Honour, I should add, most of it's crossed

11     out of this document, so I don't know how much that's going to help.

12     There's actually crossings through - one, two, three - three of the seven

13     pages.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've already stated

15     that from these seven pages we can see the number of services and

16     administrations within the Ministry of the Interior at the headquarters,

17     and we also see what the personnel situation was.  So this is why I'm

18     tendering this document.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, we are inclined to let the document

21     in, but we are concerned about the crossed out pages to which Ms. Korner

22     has referred.  Is there someone who is in a position to enlighten us on

23     that?

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, would you please look at the pages where we see

Page 21859

 1     that some portions were crossed out.  Do you have any information, do you

 2     know anything about whether all of these services and administrations

 3     actually existed in the compositions as shown here?

 4             MS. KORNER:  No, no, first of all, it ought to come up on the

 5     screen.  Secondly, that's a leading question.  The simple question is, Do

 6     you have an explanation for the crossings-out?  Not your own ideas.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, please take a look at page 5.  You can see the

 9     "Crime Prevention Service" there.

10        A.   Is that under tab 4?

11        Q.   No, the same tab, tab 3, but just leaf through the pages.  Yes,

12     and it's crossed out.

13        A.   No, it isn't.

14        Q.   Well, find the page beginning with the name Goran Macar.

15        A.   Well, in my binder, that's page 3, F190897.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now, do you know why this was crossed out?  Was this

17     the composition, the personnel situation, and so on?

18        A.   Well, this is a list of workers who worked in the month of

19     May 1992 and received an advance on their pay salary for the month.

20        Q.   Well, just answer my question:  Do you know what the crossing out

21     refers to and whether this is an actual authentic list?

22        A.   Well, what I see here is a list of --

23        Q.   Well, take a look at the right-hand side of the page, where they

24     had come from.

25        A.   Well, I see here, for instance, Rajko Bujic was from Ilidza.

Page 21860

 1     Ljuboje, Mirko also he used to be -- he is a former -- Mirko Ljuboje is a

 2     former employee.

 3        Q.   So is this information correct?

 4        A.   Well, at the seat -- this information is correct.

 5     Zoran Mihajlovic, Novo Sarajevo.  Simo Tusevljak, Sasa Blagojevic, I know

 6     them.  Orasanin, Novo Sarajevo.  All of them.  Majstorovic, Luko;

 7     Zeljko Vasiljevic.  So this list is complete.  Dejan, yes.  All these

 8     were operatives who were employees before the war, and they were now

 9     listed here.

10        Q.   What about number 8?

11        A.   Well, that's correct, that's a MUP Novo Sarajevo, me,

12     Milomir Orasanin.

13        Q.   Wait a moment.  It says Mico Orasanin; is that you?

14        A.   Well, that's -- this is an error.

15        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] [no interpretation] ...

16        A.   This is me, but it's an error.  This Mico is the nickname that is

17     used for me.

18        Q.   Very well.  What about the right-hand column where it says where

19     you came from; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   On the right-hand side, in the right-hand column, is that where

22     all these men had come from, and it was entered by hand?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   Is the information correct?

25        A.   Well, if you allow me, there are some errors here.  For instance,

Page 21861

 1     Rajko Vukovic, that's an error.  It says Ilidza and it should be

 2     Novo Sarajevo.  So it was actually erroneously entered there.

 3        Q.   But did he work in Novo Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Yes.  Mirko Ljuboje, too, but not at the headquarters.  This is a

 5     list of employees who were in the crime service, but the list -- the

 6     list that we saw earlier was in the Crime Prevention Administration, a

 7     list of employees of the Crime Prevention Administration, and that is

 8     what explains the discrepancy.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is then the

10     explanation for the crossing out.

11        Q.   Now, could you tell us why this was done in this manner?

12        A.   Well, I don't really know.  For instance, Rajko Gluhovic, I see

13     there was -- it's indicated here that he came from Ilidza, but in fact it

14     should be Novo Sarajevo.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stand by my earlier

16     request to have this document tendered into evidence.  This is the

17     document that we have.  We don't have any other.  And it shows the full

18     staffing of the Ministry of the Interior at the headquarters.  So it's up

19     to you now.  I leave it to you, to your discretion.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D569, Your Honours.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see the time, and

24     perhaps we are already late for the break, so I propose that we take a

25     break now.

Page 21862

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 2             Mr. Orasanin, we will be taking our first break as indicated by

 3     Judge Delvoie, so we will resume in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, you may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, I will now focus on your administration from the

11     organisational aspect, and I'm going to show you a number of documents so

12     we may see how the manning of your administration went.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see document 8D1.

14     That's a 65 ter number.

15             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... tab, please.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Tab 4. [Microphone not activated]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for counsel, please.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, this is a list of employees of the crime

20     administration for the month of June.  Can you see it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Was there an increase in the number of inspectors, at least

23     according to this list?

24        A.   Yes.  Apart from Dobrislav Planojevic, Goran Macar,

25     Nikola Milanovic --

Page 21863

 1        Q.   Do read names more slowly, please.

 2        A.   Milomir Orasanin; Rade Miladinovic, who is under number 5;

 3     Petko Pekic; Borka Kovacevic, she's a typist; Milka Cosic; and

 4     Danilo Vukovic, who is also an inspector.  Which adds up to a total of

 5     nine new employees in the crime administration.  This is a list from

 6     June.

 7        Q.   Yes.  These are the employee, but I was interested in the

 8     inspectors.  But the only one who's called an inspector is Danilo Vukovic

 9     under 9?

10        A.   Yes, Danilo Vukovic.  He is an inspector with a college degree.

11        Q.   So you got a new inspector who -- under number 9, Danilo Vukovic?

12        A.   Yes.  And the others do other jobs.

13        Q.   So do you agree that this is a list of all employees of the crime

14     administration at that moment?

15        A.   Yes, this is the basic administration that was located at

16     Kalovita Brda.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

18     this document into evidence.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, do we not have this information

20     already?  I seem to recall the names of Dobrislav Planojevic and

21     Goran Macar from the previous document, and I'm not quite sure

22     what is ...

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a list for

24     the following month, for June.  And I wish to show how the manning

25     strength of that administration grew.  The one we have seen was for May,

Page 21864

 1     and this is for the following month.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D570, Your Honours.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please see document

 5     1D065476.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could we have a tab number, please.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 5, Your Honour.

 8             Your Honours, I just want to draw your attention to the fact that

 9     we wanted to add this document on a 65 ter list because it was only

10     disclosed to us recently, and its number was 900D1.  So if I may, I will

11     comment on it with the witness and then we'll see about the inclusion.

12        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, we'll move on to the following month, July.  We can

13     see some personnel changes again, or, rather, can you see any new

14     inspectors on the list?  I'm interested in inspectors only.  Can you see

15     any new names there?

16        A.   Thank you for this question.  Yes, I remember this list.  This

17     was in July.  I think that Dobro told me to type it up with the typist.

18     These are the same people only reinforced by Ljubomir Kovacevic and

19     Zeljko Vasiljevic.  It includes the existing inspectors and then other

20     personnel plus these two new arrivals.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Since you said that you personally compiled this

22     list, there's no need for me to ask you how you know it.

23        A.   Yes, I remember exactly.  Planojevic told me, Go ahead and do it.

24     And I did it with Borka, so I really remember this list for July.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] For the same reasons as the

Page 21865

 1     previous document, I seek to tender this one as well.  Or, rather, first

 2     to include it in our list according to our previous submission and then I

 3     would like to tender it.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, on the list that I have from you

 5     listing the documents that you're going to use with this witness, tab 5

 6     is already in evidence.  It's Exhibit P1437.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We will check, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm very sorry.  Thanks.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, we understand the pattern that you

10     have shown in terms of May, June; we are now up to July.  How much

11     farther are you going with this?

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Only two more months, Your Honour.

13     I'm just following the witness's presence in this administration and

14     simultaneously the manning of that administration and enabling it to go

15     about its work.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, in the Chamber's view, this document

18     ought not to be admitted because it's unnecessary for the reason that

19     the -- we have the -- what I would call the basic document which has

20     previously been admitted.  And the witness has explained, for instance in

21     relation to the document presently up on the screen, July, that you look

22     at the basic document and there are these changes.  We don't need the

23     document because we have the exhibit as qualified in respect of

24     subsequent months by the witness's oral testimony.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it does not explain

Page 21866

 1     what the purpose is for showing these documents.  The reason why I'm

 2     showing them is the development of the manning strength of a very

 3     important organisational unit as well as the level of manning throughout

 4     1992.  They started off with only four inspectors, but I want to show how

 5     that unit developed and by which time it became an organisational unit

 6     with the adequate number of personnel.  Not merely to point out the

 7     initial situation because we have seen that already.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Unless I'm missing something, Mr. Cvijetic, the

 9     witness's testimony on this point is how you have established that, and

10     we don't see how adding a piece of paper adds to what the witness has

11     positively testified to already.  We have that.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honours, I will

13     just show these lists, then, and have the witness comment on them without

14     tendering them after that.  That is not a problem.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In order not to waste any more

17     time, let us move on to document 1D065479.  It was -- it was to be

18     included in our 65 ter list as 901D1.

19        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, have you opened tab 6?  I omitted to state the

20     tab number.  Take a look at this list, please.  I will ask you the

21     question.  It's about inspectors again.  Are there any new inspectors as

22     compared to the previous list?  And if any, please tell us who they are.

23        A.   There is one additional staff and that is Ranko Vasiljevic,

24     but he's -- or, rather, Ranka Vasiljevic, who is not an inspector.  And

25     this document is important because there was a change in the

Page 21867

 1     Crime Prevention and Detection Administration.

 2        Q.   Just tell us whether there was a rise in the number of

 3     inspectors.

 4        A.   Yes, Ranka Vasiljevic.

 5        Q.   Since this document will not be admitted into evidence, please

 6     tell us the date, for the record.

 7        A.   This is a payroll for the month of August 1992.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, there is something wrong here.  The

10     witness testified that Ranka Vasiljevic is not an inspector.  That's line

11     16 on page 34.  And yet when you asked whether there was a rise in the

12     number of inspectors subsequently, the witness answers: "Yes,

13     Ranka Vasiljevic."

14             So is this person an inspector or not?

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, please answer the question of the Judge.  You have

17     created confusion.

18        A.   Yes, Ranka Vasiljevic was an administrator in the

19     Crime Prevention and Detection Administration.

20        Q.   Please focus on the question, sir.  Has there been a rise in the

21     number of inspectors, and, if so, who are the new inspectors as compared

22     to the previous month?  I believe the question is clear enough.

23        A.   No, there has been no rise in the number of inspectors in this

24     month as compared to the previous one.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 21868

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We will not tender this document.

 2     Instead we will move on to the month of September.  Could we please see

 3     65 ter 37D1.  That's tab 7, I apologise.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, please look at the list for September.  And my

 8     question is the same again:  Is there an increase in the number of

 9     inspectors?  And if so, tell us who the new arrivals are.

10        A.   In this document for September 1992, there is a rise in the

11     number of inspectors.

12        Q.   Please say the names slowly.

13        A.   Sinisa Karan, with a university degree; Dragomir Peric,

14     post-secondary education; Ostoja Minic, likewise; Savka Lazic, likewise;

15     Mitar Lukic --

16        Q.   Just tell us who the new inspectors are.

17        A.   Mitar Lukic, Radenko Milicevic.

18        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Orasanin, I see your name in third place.  I do

19     not have any later payrolls, so tell us, How long did you effectively

20     work in this administration?

21        A.   I was on their list up until 20 November 1992.  So this is

22     September 1992, while I was still on the list.

23        Q.   Can you remember if you were on the list in October and received

24     your salary as an employee of that administration?

25        A.   I cannot remember.

Page 21869

 1        Q.   Very well.

 2        A.   I probably was.  But if I really received my salary, I couldn't

 3     say.

 4        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, can you tell me briefly, just in a couple of

 5     sentences, what the basic role and the task of the -- of an

 6     Administration for Crime Prevention and Detection in the Ministry of the

 7     Interior is?  Just give us a brief outline of your basic tasks.  And now

 8     I'm referring to inspectors specifically.

 9        A.   The basic tasks of the Crime Prevention Administration are to

10     apply the regulations within their jurisdiction, regulations linked to

11     crime prevention.  This administration has an instructive jurisdiction

12     and it also monitors the work of other crime services at public security

13     centres and public security stations.  These are some legal obligations

14     which follow from legal regulations, primarily from the Law on the

15     Interior instructions on crime prevention and detection and certain other

16     instructions.  So our main goal is to prevent and detect crime, with the

17     assistance of other organs such as the prosecutor's office and the

18     courts.  And we assist these organs; this is the basic function.  And

19     that was the basis of our work in 1992 when we were contemplating the

20     formation of the Crime Prevention Administration.

21        Q.   Very well.  Among others, you mentioned some instructive duties.

22     What does that imply?

23        A.   Instructive tasks in this field -- and I must say that at the

24     time we just took over previous regulations, and in 1992 this was all in

25     a phase of legal regulations being created, because we simply took over

Page 21870

 1     some regulations that were valid previously in Bosnia-Herzegovina and our

 2     work simply followed from these.  These instructions are an auxiliary

 3     document, and they assist the work of the Crime Prevention

 4     Administration.  There are certain obligations listed in there which

 5     applied to all levels of this administration.

 6        Q.   Just a moment.  On page 37, line 10, you mention the prosecutor's

 7     office and the courts, and it didn't -- it wasn't recorded what you did

 8     in relation to the courts and the prosecutor's office.

 9        A.   Well, we assist them.

10        Q.   Nothing more, we just wanted to correct the transcript.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I will show you a document, and I

12     would like to have - this is an exhibit, I believe - P988.  P988, please.

13     It's tab 34.

14        Q.   Could you please take a look at this document, the title of which

15     is "Inspection Checklist," and please pay attention to what the

16     inspection checklist actually contains.  Please look at the bullet

17     points.

18        A.   This document --

19        Q.   Did you look at the document?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   I'll ask you some questions.  Sir, when you look at everything

22     that a complete inspection includes, could you tell us how many employees

23     and from which services of the ministry would be involved in such an

24     inspection?

25        A.   This document talks about the manner of work and inspection and

Page 21871

 1     crime services; namely, for such work you would need two or three

 2     inspectors who would be able to examine the entire situation in the crime

 3     prevention administration of a certain area or the centre.

 4        Q.   Could you please wait for the question.  Does this type of

 5     inspection -- is this type of inspection something that was also done in

 6     the previous system in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes, it was done in the same way.  And the regulations were taken

 8     over.  This was in 1992.

 9        Q.   My question was --

10        A.   It was the same before as in this inspection checklist.

11        Q.   As an inspector and as a member of a team, did you go to carry

12     out inspections in Republika Srpska?

13        A.   My answer is yes.  However, when we left the Crime Prevention

14     Centre, our main task would be to change the regulations [as

15     interpreted], to establish what the situation was.  However, when we

16     arrived in the field, we found that the situation was completely

17     different.  Crime services where I visited were either poorly organised

18     or not organised at all.

19        Q.   In line -- page 39, line 6, it says -- line 5 it says that you

20     were to change the regulations, but I believe you said to apply

21     regulations.

22        A.   Yes, to apply regulations.

23        Q.   Were you ever in a situation in 1992 to conduct such a full

24     inspection, as this document states, and to carry out everything that is

25     listed in this document?

Page 21872

 1        A.   Well, in 1992, when we visited some places such as Doboj, Foca,

 2     Skelani, and other places, in some places the situation that we found was

 3     according to the regulations.  There were records and so on.  But there

 4     were problems that differed from place to place.  It depended on the

 5     organisation and on staffing levels.  In some places there were some

 6     shortcomings, the situation differed.

 7        Q.   According to you, how much time would have been needed for such

 8     an inspection to be carried out in a certain SJB in accordance with this

 9     regulation?

10        A.   Well, the regulations are clear.  First you have to announce to

11     the SJB or to the CSB that MUP inspectors were arriving, and for that you

12     need technical abilities, so you need to have communications in order to

13     let them know that you were arriving.  That's what the regulations say.

14             However, in 1992 this wasn't possible.  The rule was for the

15     inspectors to announce their arrival.  They would be given tasks by their

16     supervisors.  And then these instructions would contain what needed to be

17     done.  However, you would need at least two or three days to carry out a

18     full inspection.  You would need two or three inspectors to be present.

19     However, I must also say that in 1992 this wasn't possible due to a lack

20     of means, et cetera.  There were some problems.

21        Q.   Very well.  I'll ask you specific questions.

22             What was your primary goal in 1992?

23        A.   Our primary goal was to record the situation, to see about

24     staffing levels.  In some places the conditions were not met.  In some

25     places there weren't enough employees.  And we wanted to see whether

Page 21873

 1     there were criminal records.  It was a primary obligation to have

 2     log-books in the crime service and to apply legal powers which were set

 3     down in the Law on the Interior and the rules of the SJB.  That was the

 4     primary goal.

 5        Q.   When you went to the field, so to speak, were you given

 6     instructions about what you were supposed to take to the SJBs that you

 7     were visiting?  And if so, please tell us what the basic instructions

 8     were that you had been given.

 9        A.   Well, as I said, the primary instructions were to record the

10     situation and to make sure that the SJB can function, to see about their

11     activities, and to see about whether they met the conditions, and whether

12     they operated in accordance with instructions.  That was the primary task

13     that we had been given by the assistant minister Dobrislav Planojevic,

14     who contacted Minister Stanisic and had been given this task.

15             In the field, the situation we found was somewhat different, and

16     there were problems.

17        Q.   Since you mentioned the field, I have to ask you: Were you

18     obliged to file a report on the situation that you found in the field?

19        A.   Yes, by all means.  That was our obligation after our departure.

20     It's a part of instructive inspection, to file a report.  It's an

21     obligation.  There was only one case when we didn't send a report, and I

22     will expand on that later, why we didn't file a report.

23        Q.   Before we move on to specific visits to SJBs, I'll ask you this:

24     Were you able to carry out a full inspection such as we can see in the

25     document in any of your visits to the field?

Page 21874

 1             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] That's already been asked.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, your objection wasn't

 3     interpreted to me.  Your microphone wasn't on.  I'm not sure whether

 4     there was an objection.

 5             MS. KORNER:  I've said that's already been asked and answered.

 6     And it was asked at page 39, line 13:

 7             "Were you ever in a situation in 1992 to conduct such a full

 8     inspection, as this document states, to carry out everything that is

 9     listed in this document?"

10             And the answer follows.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I repeated the question because

12     the witness didn't give a specific answer.  I want to hear a specific

13     answer from him.  If you look at the answer, you'll see that it's not

14     precise.

15        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, please give me a specific answer to my question.

16     And you heard the question.  Were you able to carry out a full inspection

17     in any of the stations that you visited, and, if so, where?

18        A.   In 1992 we were at the Doboj CSB and we recorded the situation,

19     and I believe that there some sort of instructive control was carried

20     out.  And then we went to Foca and Visegrad, where records were compiled.

21     As for the others, they were perfunctory.

22        Q.   So what would you call the visits that you made to other stations

23     where you didn't carry out a full inspection?

24        A.   I suggested, since the instructor function according to the rules

25     is obligatory, many activities follow from it, such as the reminder on

Page 21875

 1     inspection, and so we sent documents to various SJBs.  I'm talking about

 2     this because there was a shortage, shall we call it a visit to SJBs.  We

 3     didn't call it an instructive inspection because it implies lots of

 4     obligations, which relates to the places where this instructive

 5     inspection is carried out.

 6        Q.   Very well.  I will ask you whether you recall, and I will call it

 7     as you called it, this first visit, and I will ask you to describe what

 8     this visit actually looked like and what you did.

 9        A.   As for the visits, I can't recall some of the dates or I might

10     have got them mixed up because it was a long time ago.  And when I talked

11     to the investigator, I wasn't really prepared.  I didn't want to use

12     notes to remind myself, so I think I might have got some dates mixed up.

13     I believe that first we went -- I believe I said we went to Ilijas and

14     Vogosca, whereas first we went to Skelani, Zvornik, Brcko, and that area.

15     And it was later that we visited Ilijas and Vogosca.  And then after that

16     we visited Doboj and Visegrad and Foca.

17        Q.   During the first visit you mentioned Bijeljina along with Brcko;

18     can you confirm that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Very well.  So we'll deal with your first visit, then.  Can you

21     recall as of these first four locations, what was the first place that

22     you went to?

23        A.   I must tell you that as we were leaving the MUP there were always

24     problems with vehicles and with materiel.  I can't remember who finally

25     gave us a vehicle, but members of the team were Drago Borovcanin and

Page 21876

 1     Petko Pekic.  And we went --

 2        Q.   Could you please tell me, members of your team, as for the

 3     members of the team, who went on behalf of which service?

 4        A.   Drago Borovcanin represented the uniformed police, and Petko and

 5     I went on behalf of the Crime Prevention Administration.  There were two

 6     inspectors from the Crime Prevention Administration and one inspector

 7     from the Uniformed Police Administration.

 8        Q.   Now can you remember my first question: Can you remember what

 9     your first destination was?  Where did you go first?

10        A.   I must tell you that after so much time -- but I know that we

11     went from Sarajevo, that is, Pale, and then there is some 150 kilometres

12     to the Drina.  We crossed the Drina, we went to Zvornik, we spent two or

13     three hours there, then we went to Brcko and Bijeljina, because that was

14     the itinerary.  We spent one night with relatives because there were no

15     conditions for our work.  We didn't have daily allowances, so we had to

16     find accommodation.  We visited the police station in Skelani, which was

17     a newly-formed police station.  And on our way back, we had a traffic

18     accident.  I don't know how it happened.  I don't know whether it was

19     staged or not staged.  It's difficult for me to explain.

20        Q.   Very well.  Before I ask you what you found in the police

21     stations, tell me, Did you put together a report on this visit?

22        A.   We did go to those stations, only spent a couple of hours in

23     Zvornik.  It was an ad hoc visit.  In the territory where those stations

24     were, the ministry wasn't really up and running, and it wasn't

25     operational.  We didn't do our work because it wasn't possible.  Instead,

Page 21877

 1     we dealt with who was on the job, trying to staff the crime prevention

 2     and detection service, and so on.

 3        Q.   Just a minute.  The question was:  Did you write and submit a

 4     report after your visit?  Now you can answer.

 5        A.   No, we didn't because we had a traffic accident and the colleague

 6     had to be taken to hospital.  That's why we didn't write a report.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Then let's see what you saw there, what the situation

 8     was.  If you don't know the exact date, can you tell us roughly when you

 9     when on that visit?

10        A.   I'm certain that it was mid-May or late May 1992.

11        Q.   Very well.  My question is, Did you go to Zvornik at that period

12     and were you able to?

13        A.   When we went to Zvornik, not the town itself because it wasn't

14     safe, we stayed at Karakaj, it's a cross-roads.  That's where we stayed,

15     and we visited the police station.

16        Q.   Who did you find in Karakaj?

17        A.   Well, I can only tell you what I know.  We stayed there for an

18     hour or two.  In my opinion, they were totally disorganised.  They

19     weren't operational.  The police station didn't have executive personnel.

20     There was Marinko Vasilic and Petko Panic.  The people there were all

21     frightened.  As far as I know, the Crisis Staff appointed some people

22     there.  Those were the most important problems.

23             I personally spoke to Marinko Vasilic in front of the building

24     because there weren't any conditions really there.  They didn't have a

25     functioning police station.  It was only a couple of offices on the

Page 21878

 1     premises of a company.  I think it was called Standard.  And I suggested

 2     to him that he become the commander of the police station because there

 3     was a complete disorganisation and we wanted to include them into our

 4     structure legally.  And that's actually more what we focused on rather

 5     than dealing with crime prevention problems, because it wasn't possible.

 6             I tried to persuade him to start running the police station

 7     because it was better for him to do it as a professional than somebody

 8     else.

 9        Q.   Very well.  You mentioned the local Crisis Staff as the

10     institution that appointed people.  Do you know who was appointed by the

11     Crisis Staff?

12        A.   As far as I know, it was an elderly man at the time, Pantelic I

13     believe his name was, but I don't remember his first name.

14        Q.   Do you remember where he was from?

15        A.   I think that he hailed from Loznica.  He may have been a

16     pensioner already.  He was so old that at the time I thought that he was

17     no longer physically capable of doing the job.

18        Q.   Having mentioned Loznica, do tell us where that town is, the

19     place where he hailed from.

20        A.   Loznica is in Serbia, some 30 kilometres or so from Zvornik.

21        Q.   Very well.  Did you observe that the MUP had decided to appoint

22     chiefs of SJBs, and when and how did that come about?

23        A.   After that traffic accident, we didn't work for a while.  But I

24     know that it was some two or three months later, as far as I remember,

25     after the arrest of that paramilitary group, the Yellow Wasps.  All

Page 21879

 1     decisions on appointment at the time were temporary, but that's when the

 2     first --

 3        Q.   No, don't -- let's leave that issue aside now.  Just tell us the

 4     name of the first man in that position.

 5        A.   The first chief of the SJB there, and I think it was July, his

 6     name was Milorad Lokancevic, who was appointed pursuant to a decision of

 7     the ministry, and it was a temporary decision, as far as I remember.  I

 8     know the man.  I met him later.

 9        Q.   When you spoke about Mr. Pantelic, which position were you

10     discussing all the time?  That is, which position was he in?

11        A.   Well, I don't really remember all details, because when we stayed

12     there briefly, we couldn't even sit down at the office and talk.

13        Q.   Just briefly.

14        A.   He was chief of the SJB of Zvornik, so he was the number one man

15     for the -- for policing.

16        Q.   Apart from the organisational work and the staffing matters, you

17     weren't really in a position to do what you were supposed to do about the

18     crime prevention and detection service?

19        A.   Yes, I can answer that question.  We didn't even go to Zvornik.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I anticipate your objection.  I

21     know it's leading, but the witness actually said it.

22             MS. KORNER:  It doesn't make it any better.  And I don't think he

23     did say it.  You cannot really ask a question that says, You weren't

24     really in a position to do what you were supposed to do.

25             He gives the evidence, not you, Mr. Cvijetic.

Page 21880

 1             MR. CVIJETIC:  Okay.  Okay.  [Interpretation] All right.  I

 2     understand.  Let me phrase it this way:

 3        Q.   Were you able to do the work you had set out to do?

 4        A.   No.  And that's only logical because the police station wasn't

 5     really properly organised.  We only found five or six people there who

 6     weren't really organised.  They didn't even have a premises.  Their

 7     proper premises were in Zvornik, so we couldn't really do the job in that

 8     one hour that we were there.

 9        Q.   It was recorded that you said that the police station wasn't

10     properly organised, but you said that it didn't really exist?

11        A.   Well, it did exist in three offices, but it wasn't really

12     organised as a service to function in accordance with the laws and

13     regulations.

14             MS. KORNER:  Again, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm being pedantic

15     about this, but the rule that's being followed is that if something has

16     been mistranslated, then the witness is asked to repeat it, not that

17     Mr. Cvijetic, counsel, tells him what he said.

18             So that should be followed, please.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I accept your objection.  That's

20     how I'll proceed from now on.

21        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, what did you see in Skelani?

22        A.   The three of us visited Skelani.  Skelani was -- Skelani became a

23     municipality at the time.  Before the war, there was a police substation,

24     not really an SJB.  We went there and we knew the man who I think also

25     was chief of the Crisis Staff there.  He -- we talked to him and found

Page 21881

 1     out that the Crisis Staff had established a police station, because

 2     before the war there had only been a police substation or branch police

 3     station actually, so they had appointed some of their own people there.

 4             We discussed that and made it clear that it must be in line with

 5     the laws and regulations governing the work of the ministry.  There were

 6     about a dozen police officers or so.  I can't remember.  We spoke to the

 7     commander and said that it must be clear whether they are eligible or

 8     not, and then we got a list.

 9             It wasn't really our job.  We were crime prevention and detection

10     inspectors.  But on the other hand there was nothing else for us to do.

11     So we wanted to make sure that the police station is established in line

12     with the laws and regulations governing the work of the ministry.

13             There were always problems with staffing.  We would nominate some

14     people, but the local -- locals didn't like that, the powers that be, as

15     it were, and that's how it was in Skelani and everywhere else.  That was

16     the constant bone of contention between the local authorities and the

17     official structures.

18        Q.   You never said who -- what the name of the man was who ran that

19     branch police station.

20        A.   It was Marko Milanovic.

21        Q.   Please wait for my question.  Did he state the reasons for the

22     Crisis Staff establishing a branch police station or police station

23     proper?

24        A.   I must wait for the cursor, yes.

25             I was able to speak to him because I had known him from before.

Page 21882

 1     He was a police officer and had worked as such and then he retired.  I

 2     asked him, What is this all about? because I didn't understand the

 3     situation.  How do you select your personnel?  And then he replied, If we

 4     waited for you to do it, we would be in a position to have to flee across

 5     the Drina.  They -- his reply was -- or, rather, I said, But they must be

 6     employees of the ministry, responsible people, to live up to their

 7     duties.

 8        Q.   Just a bit of patience.  I'm interested in his explanation why

 9     the Crisis Staff had done it that way.  And what became of that man?  Did

10     he remain in his position?

11        A.   I don't really remember the dates.  But on one occasion when he

12     was fleeing Skelani, he was killed on the bridge over the Drina.

13             According to the information I got from some police officers, he

14     didn't want to withdraw in time, so he was killed while he was crossing

15     the bridge.

16        Q.   But tell us, just in one sentence, who attacked Skelani?  What

17     kind of operation was it?

18        A.   That was just one of about a dozen operations that are well

19     known.  It was an action conducted by Naser Oric, who attacked Skelani

20     with his unit.  I think that a village was torched in the process.  He

21     didn't want to leave among the first; he stayed there until the end and

22     then he got killed.

23        Q.   How many victims were there in that operation?

24             MS. KORNER:  Can we have a date, please, before we go on with

25     this.

Page 21883

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you remember when that action took place, when this man was

 3     killed?

 4        A.   Well, I can't really say.  It may have been in late 1992 or early

 5     1993.  I can't remember.

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Let's deal with something that you have just mentioned, that you

10     took a list of the employees who were there at the time.  And you said

11     that although it wasn't your job, you wanted to turn them into MUP

12     personnel.

13             And so explain to us what the procedure is, in essence; how are

14     such decisions issued?

15        A.   I must say that not only there in Skelani, but elsewhere too,

16     although now I can't remember the exact places, there were police

17     officers who were not under our command.  As far as I remember, we were

18     couriers and drivers rather than inspectors, really, because there was

19     total disorganisation.  That's what I witnessed.  We took those lists.

20     We considered that to be our duty.  But it was actually the work of

21     Drago Borovcanin, because he was a uniformed police inspector.  But it

22     was actually me who made that suggestion to take those lists and check

23     the procedures and see whether those police officers were eligible, and

24     if so, that they should be issued decisions on their appointment.  All

25     these being temporary.  I think I also had lists from Milici and Sekovici

Page 21884

 1     and some other stations.  But there were no communication lines, and

 2     there was no courier service either.  So that was actually the bulk of

 3     our work.

 4        Q.   Do explain why the decisions on appointment were temporary.

 5        A.   For the simple reason that it wasn't possible to vet all those

 6     people or actually apply the provisions of the labour law that sets out

 7     the general conditions for work in the police.  It wasn't even possible

 8     to check them, see if they have police files.  It was the minister's

 9     decision and the assistant minister's.  I wasn't at the collegium though.

10     But I know that it was decided that they should be given temporary

11     appointments before they become full professionals, because there was

12     special conditions in place for the MUP, for employment with the MUP.

13        Q.   Do wait for my question.  Which regulation of the MUP lays down

14     the conditions for a future employee of the ministry in order to become

15     appointed?  What regulation is that?

16        A.   As far as I know, as far as I recall, this document follows from

17     the Law on Internal Affairs.  Rules of procedure are passed of the

18     Ministry of the Interior, and these rules of procedure prescribe certain

19     special conditions for the employment of people in the ministry.  And

20     then it's on the basis of these special conditions that they have special

21     obligations.

22             Once an employee of the MUP receives a decision, then according

23     to the regulations and according to the rules of procedure on internal

24     structure, this person has certain rights but also has certain

25     obligations.  The rights are that he would get a salary, he would get

Page 21885

 1     annual leave, and other rights that follow from the labour law.  Whereas

 2     the obligations are to apply all the regulations, all police powers,

 3     which also follow from the Law on Internal Affairs and from the rules of

 4     procedure on public security.  These are obligations.  This is why the

 5     decisions were all temporary, because there's a lot of responsibility

 6     there.  And our leadership realised that they were taking on a large risk

 7     if they issued decisions without properly checking everybody.

 8             When we went on our visits - I can't call it an inspection - we

 9     noticed that there were some wild people, so to call them, who had our

10     identity cards.  At one check-point we showed our old identity cards and

11     there was somebody from the military police there.  He said, Never mind

12     about that, I have that as well.  And it was a blank official identity

13     card.  I was really astonished.  These were probably some of the reasons

14     why all the decisions were temporary.  There was a lot of responsibility

15     in giving a permanent decision to somebody for work in the MUP.

16        Q.   Could you please repeat the name of this internal document of the

17     MUP.  It wasn't recorded.  Could you please tell us slowly.

18        A.   It's the Rules of Procedure on Internal Organisation.

19        Q.   Please tell us, in 19 -- was it passed in 1992?

20        A.   These legal documents --

21        Q.   Or was it being worked on?

22        A.   All these legal documents, as far as I recall, in the field of

23     the crime service --

24        Q.   Could you please answer me.

25        A.   No, I didn't see it at the time.  I didn't see that we had it at

Page 21886

 1     the time.  If we had, we would have had some kinds of instructions.  It

 2     was -- it would have been drafted after I left the crime administration.

 3        Q.   I'm interested in the status of those who didn't have any

 4     decisions.  Formally, legally, were they members of the MUP?

 5        A.   No, they were not members of the MUP formally or legally, nor did

 6     they have any powers or obligations.  They could not apply any police

 7     powers.  They couldn't exercise any police powers.  That was the problem.

 8        Q.   Was there also a problem with the fact that if they didn't have

 9     these decisions -- actually, could any proceedings be instigated against

10     them if they didn't have these decisions?

11        A.   I said a moment ago that the decisions issued by the MUP implied

12     that you had duties and obligations.  However, if you weren't a member of

13     the MUP, then you didn't have these obligations.

14        Q.   Very well.  I believe that we're done as far as Skelani is

15     concerned.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We should move on to Brcko and

17     Bijeljina now, so, I don't know, Your Honours, whether we should start

18     with these two municipalities because they're rather large.

19        Q.   We could be shorter about Bijeljina, so maybe you could tell us

20     about how long you spent in Bijeljina and what you did there.

21        A.   Well, as for Bijeljina, we hadn't really planned to be there.  We

22     had planned to be in Brcko and see about things in Brcko.  The plan was

23     that to get -- on our way back, since you had to pass through Bijeljina

24     to go to Zvornik, we would drop by in Bijeljina.

25        Q.   Very well.  So before the break, can you tell us what you did

Page 21887

 1     specifically in Bijeljina, what you found there?

 2        A.   Well, I thought we should do it chronologically, since we first

 3     went to Brcko and this was on our way back and there was an unpleasant

 4     incident there.  But we went to the police station in Bijeljina.  None of

 5     the chiefs were there.  We found the chief of legal affairs who had

 6     nothing to do with the operatives.  There were no people there, so we had

 7     coffee with him.  His name was Grkinic.  He saw us, we had coffee with

 8     him.  However, as for the job that we had come to do, he couldn't help us

 9     with because he was dealing with legal and administrative affairs, so we

10     continued on our way.

11        Q.   Very well.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since I'm going to

13     move on to Brcko municipality and I believe I'll spend some more time

14     there because it's rather important, I would like to suggest that we take

15     a break a minute or two before and then we'll continue.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.  So we would resume in 20 minutes.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.

20             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is on his way back in,

21     Mr. Krgovic, we are reminded that we have yet to receive your estimates

22     for cross-examination of this witness.

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, that's because -- [microphone not

24     activated] ... Your Honours, it's because we don't have questions for

25     this witness.

Page 21888

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, you may continue, Mr. Cvijetic.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, if you remember, before the break we mentioned

 6     Brcko, so I would like to ask you to tell us briefly how long you stayed

 7     in Brcko, what you found there, and so on.

 8        A.   We passed through Bijeljina and we went to Brcko.  As far as I

 9     know, there were some combat operations around the town, so the town

10     itself looked like there had been a war.  That's what I could see on my

11     way into town.  We went to the police station.  As far as I know, the

12     chief wasn't there.  Instead an inspector was there whose name was

13     Gavrilovic.  His brother worked at the Crime Prevention Administration of

14     the Bosnian MUP, I believe.  And I think that his name was Pero or Petar.

15             We went there and we talked to him.  The crime service there

16     wasn't organised.  I believe that he was in charge of some tasks, whether

17     it was state security or something.  I didn't know him before the war.

18     So anyone who I didn't know before, I was a little bit careful with.  But

19     we didn't do anything special there.  When we arrived, we were quite

20     hungry because when we went to the field we didn't get any daily

21     allowance or anything, so this man took us out to lunch.

22             I can't remember exactly, I believe that we went on foot from the

23     police station to the hotel, which is some hundred metres away, I think.

24     There was a sniper that was shooting.  Drago Borovcanin was there, I was

25     there, and Gavrilovic.  I should tell you that I found it all a little

Page 21889

 1     suspicious because there were few ricochets some ten metres from us.  The

 2     ricochets went around, hits the asphalt, and then you, I found that a

 3     little suspicious.  You can't say that I was afraid, but I was afraid,

 4     and there were a few such shots.

 5             We went inside to have a bite to eat, and on our way back I

 6     believe that Pekic left the car there.  I can't remember the details.  I

 7     know that we walked from the police station and the car was in front of

 8     the hotel.  We noticed that we had a flat tire.  We thought that we had a

 9     flat tire, so we wanted to find assistance to get a new tire and we

10     replaced it.  We put the flat tire in the boot and we went back.  The

11     duty officer was there and Gavrilovic was at the police station.  As far

12     as I recall, nobody else was there.  That was the reason that we stayed a

13     short time.  Practically we gave up on any sort of work.

14             And when we returned and came to Bijeljina, I said this before

15     the break, that we spent some time in Bijeljina, however, our goal was to

16     continue on our way, because Brcko is some 200 kilometres or even more

17     away from Pale.  So as we went to a mechanic to check the tire and to

18     replace it, he told us that the tire didn't just burst but that somebody

19     released all the air from it through the vent.  That was our time in

20     Brcko, basically.

21        Q.   Could you tell us whether you received an explanation from

22     Mr. Gavrilovic as for why everything was empty and what was happening in

23     Brcko?

24        A.   As far as I recall, and I don't want to guess or I don't want to

25     make a mistake, but it seemed to me that this man was afraid.  He was

Page 21890

 1     afraid.  I knew that his brother had either already gone or was planning

 2     to go to Austria, to Vienna, and I think he was also contemplating

 3     leaving.  I think he was afraid of some people there who also prepared

 4     this sabotage for us.  It was later that some things turned out clearly.

 5     This is just my assumption.

 6        Q.   What kind of people are you talking about?

 7        A.   I'm talking about the time that I spent there, that hour, hour

 8     and a half.  I didn't know at the time.  I could tell that he was afraid.

 9     He said there were some people there but we didn't go into any detail.  I

10     assumed that he was afraid, that people were afraid there.  There might

11     have been about a dozen people there.

12        Q.   Very well.  I'll ask you about paramilitary -- was he referring

13     to paramilitary formations in Brcko?

14        A.   Well, he mentioned them, but we didn't go into any details

15     exactly because of the snipers.  We just went to the police station.  And

16     because we were hungry, as far as I recall he said, Let's go and grab a

17     bite and we'll talk about it there.  And then on the way, I told you what

18     happened.  And I believe I might have initiated that we pull back to

19     Bijeljina and have somebody else do the job later on.

20             That is, there was a second team that we ran into on our way, and

21     they were going from Sarajevo.  I believe Vukovic was among them.  And

22     Dragan Andan was with them.  I told Vukovic about these things and I told

23     him this so they wouldn't be afraid, but I was primarily concerned about

24     my own safety and I told this to Danilo Vukovic.  After three, four, or

25     five days, as far as recall, they went to Bijeljina and they visited the

Page 21891

 1     area.  This was five, six, or ten days later.  First they went to

 2     Bijeljina to get accommodated.  I know that we ran into them at a well,

 3     they were drinking some water, and that's the story.

 4        Q.   I'll just ask you shortly, Did you know that later on there was

 5     an operation carried out in Brcko, an operation of disarming the

 6     paramilitaries that you mentioned?  Did you know about that or not?

 7        A.   What I was talking about was around that time, around that date.

 8     I know that this was after our departure.  I know that when these people

 9     went there, they established that there were some paramilitary groups who

10     were terrorising the people, including the police, and that they were

11     helpless.  I believe that a different team went there to establish the

12     facts.  But I was telling you about the time that we were there.  All the

13     rest happened later on.

14        Q.   Very well.  As for this first visit to the four municipalities,

15     as we'll call it, let me ask you this: Where did the traffic accident

16     happen?  Can you just tell me the location where it is.  Don't tell me in

17     detail about the accident.

18        A.   It was in Serbia.  There's a cross-roads at the border.  This was

19     the only free road, the only passable road.

20        Q.   I'll ask you about that later.

21             Between these four municipalities, did you have to enter the

22     Republic of Serbia in order to get there?

23        A.   Yes, by all means.  There was no other way.

24             When we went to Foca, we went into two countries, practically.

25     We travelled through Serbia and Montenegro.  That was the only passable

Page 21892

 1     road.  And it was the same for Skelani.

 2        Q.   Between Bijeljina and Zvornik, did you have to pass through

 3     territory controlled by Muslim forces, that is, did you actually do this?

 4        A.   The road between Bijeljina and Zvornik was free.

 5        Q.   I mean when you're going towards Bratunac.

 6        A.   Yes, towards Bratunac, yes.  Let me just explain.  On the

 7     Zvornik-Bijeljina-Brcko road, you have -- it's practically one road;

 8     however, if you're going towards Skelani, you have to cross over to

 9     Serbia and travel along the other side of the Drina in order to finally

10     get to Skelani.

11        Q.   Specifically I want to know whether you at any point risked

12     travelling through territory controlled by the Muslim forces.

13        A.   That was when we were travelling from Sarajevo and Pale.  It was

14     on that road.  That's the road towards Vlasenica.

15        Q.   No, I meant --

16        A.   No, not between Brcko and Bijeljina.  That was on our way there.

17        Q.   Very well.  I thought that towards Bratunac there was a road that

18     you had to pass.

19        A.   That was on our way there.  We hadn't even arrived.  This was

20     around Sarajevo and Vlasenica.

21        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, if we're done with that visit, and we have already

22     explained that you didn't write a report, according to what you said by

23     way of introduction, the following visit, documented by a written report,

24     was the one covered by the report on the activities of the police

25     stations at Vogosca and Ilijas.  It's under tab 8.

Page 21893

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 00397, which is an exhibit,

 2     P989.  [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's turn to the last page of the

 5     report to see the signatures, and I'll come back to the front page.

 6        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, can you identify your signature down there?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And the other person who went with you?  It says here that it is

 9     Drago Borovcanin.

10        A.   I can comment on this.  Drago Borovcanin is mentioned under

11     number 1, and I'm mentioned under number 2.  When there are joint

12     inspections or audits, the Police Administration is mentioned first and

13     the Crime Prevention and Detection Department is mentioned second because

14     the regular police are more numerous.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Let us turn to the

16     first page, and I don't mean the cover page, and the section about the

17     Vogosca SJB.  Let us wait for the English translation.  Here it is.

18        Q.   Please take a look at this to jog your memory, and then I'll ask

19     you about the contents of this report.

20             Are you done?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Very well.  Unless you have anything special to say about

23     Vogosca, I would like to go to the fourth paragraph in Serbian, which

24     begins with "It is necessary to point out."

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It is on the same page in the

Page 21894

 1     English version, the last paragraph.

 2        Q.   Please read this paragraph.  You don't have to read it aloud.

 3     Please explain what this is about.  What personnel problems is Vogosca

 4     SJB faced with?

 5        A.   There were problems with the chief of the station, the commander

 6     of the station, and all the executive personnel.  This is more police

 7     business, but I know about it.  There too, as far as I know, because we

 8     stayed there for a couple of hours, there was no chief of SJB.  There was

 9     no commander either.  They didn't have appointments.  If I remember well

10     then, Boro Maksimovic was there at the time.  And Vlado Kelovic, I think.

11     I didn't remember when I first mentioned it, but, yes, they had some kind

12     of appointments.  But the latter part was done by Drago Borovcanin

13     because this had do with the uniform police, so it isn't my line of

14     business.

15             They had appointments -- or, rather, they didn't have

16     appointments from the MUP - but did they actually have appointments? - I

17     think there were appointments by the Crisis Staff, this Boro Maksimovic.

18     I think he was wounded at the time.  There may have been an attack on the

19     police station by some group.

20        Q.   Were there any problems with the staffing of this police station

21     bearing in mind what you've just said, that Maksimovic and the others

22     were appointed by the local authorities?

23        A.   Yes, I know about this, but actually more from a later period

24     because I worked for the Crime Prevention and Detection Administration.

25     There was resistance there, resistance to the appointment of people whom

Page 21895

 1     we wanted, we the ministry.  We wanted people from the service.  We

 2     always relied on the people who had worked in the service before rather

 3     than on these upstarts, this party personnel, because they didn't have

 4     the adequate experience and knowledge.

 5             And the same problem was in Vogosca.  And I know that this

 6     problem wasn't solved and it was transferred to the assistant minister.

 7     Dobro Planojevic told me about it.  There was a problem with the people

 8     whom we had nominated, but there was also a problem with the uniformed

 9     police, whether they would get appointments where the local authorities

10     had the say.  Actually, they had more of a say than we did.

11        Q.   Very well.  And did the ministry then appointment people to these

12     positions we're talking about, that is, chief and commander, and how was

13     it implemented in the field?  Were there any problems?

14        A.   I cannot remember all details, but I know that the inspectors

15     went there again after a month or so to solve the problem.  I think

16     Milanovic went there, maybe even Planojevic, to appoint our man.  As far

17     as crime is concerned, we nominated Zivko Lazarevic, who was a very good

18     inspector; and we nominated Brano Vlaco, who used to work at the CSB.

19     But I remember that we --

20        Q.   Just a minute.  The paragraph you are now talking about is on the

21     following page.  It's on this page in Serbian, but it's on the following

22     page in English.  That's why I interrupted you, to call up the following

23     page.  Here it is.

24             Here in this paragraph these two names are mentioned in the

25     centre of the page, Vlaco and the other.  Are these the people you

Page 21896

 1     nominated?

 2        A.   Yes, but when we were there and completed our job and returned,

 3     since we also had problems in getting there.  So I don't want this to

 4     sound as if I'm complaining all the time.

 5             There were also sniper shots on our way there, so we went back on

 6     a different route.  We nominated Zivko Lazarevic and Brano Vlaco, but it

 7     was upon the initiative of Milos Zuban maybe, I'm not sure, or

 8     Cedo Kljajic, or possibly Dobro was the one who suggested that we should

 9     nominate these people.

10        Q.   Do read your proposal with all the names.  Read them out but

11     slowly, please.  It's at the bottom of this page in Serbian.  Please read

12     it out aloud, just the names.

13        A.   "We suggest that the employee working there so far,

14     Zivko Lazarevic, be appointed head."

15        Q.   And then?

16        A.   "And that Branislav Vlaco, inspector in the former Sarajevo CSB,

17     be appointed crime prevention inspector."

18             He was an economist by training and he worked on white collar

19     crime, not general crime.  That's why I know this.

20        Q.   Was he a member of the Vogosca SJB?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You stated his nickname or shortened first name; please state it

23     again for the record.

24        A.   It is Brano.  I know the man personally.

25        Q.   Now, was your staffing proposal accepted or what was the outcome?

Page 21897

 1        A.   There were problems there.  I think that he left sometime -- at

 2     some point later and did something else.

 3        Q.   Do you know where he went and what he did?

 4        A.   Yes, I know that.  Now he's the manager of the Raiffeisen Bank in

 5     Bijeljina.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: Could the accused's

 7     microphone be switched off.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you know what happened with Boro Maksimovic and Vlado Kelovic?

10        A.   I think that Boro Maksimovic was wounded --

11        Q.   At the beginning.  But what happened finally?  Did he stay?

12        A.   They were removed, but it was after the arrival of the other

13     team.  They were removed from their positions.  They were people

14     nominated by the SDS.

15        Q.   Do you know why they were removed?  Just briefly.

16        A.   As far as I know, the reason was unprofessional conduct and the

17     failure to take adequate measures from their job description that were

18     necessary for the operation of the SJB, which is keeping up law and

19     order, combatting crime, and so on.

20        Q.   Let's move on to the last page of this document and focus on the

21     Ilijas SJB.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: The microphone of the

23     second accused is switched on again.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Have we found Ilijas in the

25     English translation?

Page 21898

 1        Q.   Please focus on this second paragraph, halfway through.  You were

 2     saying here that they have poor communications due to poor VHF channels.

 3     What was the communications system like at the stations you visited?  Was

 4     it operational?

 5        A.   At the beginning, in May, some lines were down at the local

 6     level.  I'm not a communications guy, but we didn't really understand why

 7     it was like that because Vogosca and Ilijas were only some 20 kilometres

 8     apart, but they couldn't communicate, nonetheless.  It may have been for

 9     reasons that have to do with the communications system.  Possibly there

10     was interference.  Zvornik and Sarajevo couldn't communicate, but I

11     understood that.  I didn't understand why these two couldn't.  The

12     communications system was disrupted.

13        Q.   I'll ask you now about the eastern part that you visited before

14     we move on to the west.  To which CSB did the SJBs from the eastern part

15     that you moved about in belong to before the war, organisationally

16     speaking, at the time of the previous MUP?  Do you remember?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  Before the war, the ministry had eight centres, I

18     believe:  Bihac, Banja Luka, Doboj, Tuzla, Sarajevo, Gorazde, Mostar.

19     Eight.  Is that eight?  Yes, eight.  And these public security services

20     or Security Services Centres had some SJBs under them that were organised

21     at the municipal level.  Tuzla included the following municipalities:

22     Brcko, Bijeljina, Ugljevik, Zvornik, Vlasenica, Sekovic, Milici,

23     Srebrenica, Gradacac.  I think there was Srebrenik.

24        Q.   Here is my question:  What about these municipalities that were

25     left without their superior centre; how did they function at the

Page 21899

 1     beginning and what situation did you find there?

 2        A.   After our arrival and once we made a snap-shot, we saw that they

 3     weren't functioning.  I'm talking about the management.  The other

 4     stations such as Ugljevik, Bijeljina, Brcko, Zvornik, Bratunac - how

 5     should I put it? - in early 1992 they were left hanging.  The

 6     organisation hadn't been up and running.  The MUP hadn't been established

 7     yet.  I know that later they were placed under Sarajevo CSB, such as

 8     Bratunac, Zvornik, Milici, Vlasenica, and at that time there were many

 9     problems until they were re-subordinated, as it were.  Only local

10     authorities had the say there, the Crisis Staffs and what have you.

11     That's why our intention was to include them in the functioning of the

12     ministry, legally speaking, and that they be included in our chain of

13     command.  There was a bigger rift because of that.  We had no influence

14     there, no influence on these stations.  I'm talking about May, June, and

15     July when I first went there.

16        Q.   Can you remember the Gorazde CSB of the once MUP and the stations

17     that remained a part of the MUP of Republika Srpska?

18        A.   As far as I recall, and I'm more familiar with the

19     Sarajevo Centre, I know about places in the Tuzla sector and after the

20     war and I know that the Tuzla Centre included Rogatica, Visegrad, Rudo,

21     Foca, and Cajnice.  It practically was this territorial organisation.

22        Q.   We'll have to correct something in the transcript.  It says that

23     the Tuzla Centre included these municipalities, but my question referred

24     to Gorazde.  You said that you were more familiar with the Tuzla region?

25        A.   Yes, yes, that's what I said.

Page 21900

 1        Q.   So what you just listed refers to the Gorazde CSB; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Very well.

 4             What you said a moment ago regarding the stations from the Tuzla

 5     area, did it also apply to the Gorazde area?  Can you tell us who

 6     controlled Gorazde throughout the war?

 7        A.   Yes, it was the same situation.  It's logical that it would be

 8     the same situation.  There were other problems.  This was my view of

 9     things, and this may not be my field of expertise.  There were problems

10     regarding the organisation of the prosecutor's office and the courts.

11     Nothing functioned properly in the areas that we visited.  That was our

12     understanding.  Wherever we went we saw that the prosecutor's office or

13     the courts were not functioning, so these stations and these

14     municipalities were left as I put it a moment ago, hanging.  They were

15     nobody's.  They were outside of our organisation, outside the area of

16     both the judiciary and the police.  The judiciary at the time was rather

17     slow and inefficient.  I believe that we were better than they were, in

18     the municipalities.

19        Q.   Very well.  From the police point of view, did you find processed

20     case files but they couldn't be handed over to anybody, they were just

21     filed in drawers because there was nobody to hand them over to?

22        A.   Yes.  There were such cases, and there is a report.  But it's

23     impossible to remember everything because it's been a long time.  I know

24     that there were problems, particularly relating to the organisation of

25     the judiciary and the prosecutor's office.  I know about this because

Page 21901

 1     when we left Sarajevo, when our supervisors told us to go and look into

 2     things, we asked, Well, what do we look at?  We were to look at the

 3     conditions.

 4             Somebody gave me a document that I carried with me, and it

 5     related to the organisation of the prosecutor's office and the judiciary.

 6     I believe this was some decisions.  I can't remember whether it was the

 7     Presidency that made a decision forming courts, the prosecutor's office,

 8     and prisons.  But since they were unable to send these to the field, it

 9     arrived to the administration, and then we were to carry this document

10     with us.  I remember that.

11             However, the places that we visited, like Visegrad and Foca,

12     Brcko, Rudo, Cajnice, the prosecuted's office wasn't functioning at all,

13     and neither was the court.  That was what we found.  So the case files

14     were just left there.

15             And as for the civilian prosecutor's office, while it was being

16     set up, the stations were supposed to keep functioning, and the case

17     files that belonged to the military prosecutor's office were to be sent

18     to Bileca.  That was -- those were our instructions, as far as I recall.

19     And it was a problem, I mean, as far as I remember, this wasn't organised

20     at all at the time that I left the crime service.

21        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Orasanin, I believe that based on the chronology

22     of things we are now at your arrival to the CSB in Doboj.  Do you agree

23     with me that that was the next place you visited chronologically, or am I

24     mistaken?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 21902

 1        Q.   So according to the chronology, Doboj follows; right?  Very well.

 2     I will first show you a document so we could establish when it was that

 3     you left.  Just a moment, let me find it.  There we go, it's tab 11.  And

 4     this is Exhibit P404.  Please take a look before I ask you a question.

 5             Mr. Orasanin, do you recall this authorisation?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember it now.  Initially I couldn't recall it.

 7        Q.   Can you remember where you were when this authorisation was

 8     drafted and who drafted it?

 9        A.   Having viewed this document, I remember that I was in Brcko.

10     This document was written by Nikola Milanovic and --

11        Q.   One moment.  Who is Nikola Milanovic?

12        A.   He is an inspector in the Crime Prevention Administration and he

13     was with us.

14        Q.   Please go on about the authorisation and its origins.  Who wrote

15     it?

16        A.   We had already set off.  I might have forgotten some things, but

17     there were some problems about our presence, about us checking identity

18     cards without any sort of authorisation.  We weren't authorised to work

19     there, and there were various checks along the way.  So this

20     authorisation was written in Brcko.  He had contacted Goran Macar on the

21     telephone and we laid down some tasks and obligations and also identity

22     cards so that we could go there.  That's why it has the stamp.  It was in

23     Brcko.

24        Q.   Very well.  The document says "Authorisation," so that's what

25     we'll call it.  Please tell me who signed this authorisation.

Page 21903

 1        A.   I believe it was signed by Milanovic, I think.  No.

 2        Q.   Did Mr. Milanovic ask authorisation from Goran Macar on the

 3     telephone to draft this authorisation and even to sign it?

 4        A.   He talked to him on the phone and he sought approval from

 5     Goran Macar.  He sought approval from Goran Macar.

 6        Q.   So you had this document with you when you set off for Doboj; is

 7     that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now that you've seen the date at the top --

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 21904

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, that seems to be the best course.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Milanovic -- Mr. Orasanin, I apologise, Mr. Orasanin, as you

11     can see the date that the document bears, can you tell us how many days

12     after that it was that you went to Doboj?  Can you remember that?

13        A.   We continued on our way the same day.

14        Q.   And who met you and where did you first report?

15        A.   The rule is that when you arrive, you report to the supervisor,

16     that is, the chief of the SJB, who at the time was Andrija Bjelosevic,

17     and he met us.

18        Q.   Did you have a chance to talk to the chief of the SJB?

19        A.   Yes.  We had a coffee with him and we discussed the situation in

20     his centre.  And later we had a meeting with the chief of the crime

21     service and continued with what our task was.

22        Q.   Very well.  Let me ask you something because of Ms. Korner's

23     objection.  We have a correction to make to the transcript.  I believe it

24     was line 12 on page 71.  Could you please repeat the function of

25     Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic?

Page 21905

 1        A.   He was the chief of the Doboj CSB.

 2        Q.   Now I can say that the mistake was that it was recorded that he

 3     was the chief of the SJB, but we've corrected it.

 4             And what did you discuss with Mr. Bjelosevic?  Did you explain to

 5     him the purposes of your visit?

 6        A.   We discussed the situation regarding crime because we were a team

 7     that was authorised for crime prevention.  Nikola Milanovic, myself, and

 8     Ostoja Minic were there from the Crime Service Administration.

 9        Q.   Just a moment.  Did Mr. Bjelosevic brief you about the situation

10     at the CSB in Doboj?  And if you can recall, can you tell us what it was

11     that he said?

12        A.   As far as I recall that short meeting with the chief, he told us

13     about the situation regarding crime, especially about some murders.  He

14     told us that he had some problems with the relationship between the SJB

15     and the CSB, the functions, and there was a similar problem in the

16     territory of other centres, where the problems might have been a little

17     milder than in the east.  The SJBs exercised more authority than they

18     should have.  And as for the reserve police and the SJB in Doboj, I know

19     that there were some later orders.  And I was told to look into what was

20     wrong about the reserve police, even though that wasn't our job, but

21     there were some problems there.  And I know that there were some requests

22     made by the ministry.  There was a problem, and the reserve police was to

23     be reduced, the numbers were to be reduced, because there were some

24     thousand reserve policemen, and Andrija told us about this.  He said that

25     Chief Petrovic, who was the chief of the SJB, wouldn't listen to him.

Page 21906

 1             So these were two problems: There were problems with crime and

 2     there were problems with the uniformed police, that is, with the reserve

 3     police.  I know that there was an order later for the numbers to be

 4     reduced, but these were requests from the army.  And as far as I recall,

 5     and I know that there were objections raised later on as well.

 6        Q.   Did Mr. Bjelosevic speak to you about the organisational problems

 7     of the CSB?  Did he speak about these problems?

 8        A.   Well, a man cannot remember everything.  But I know roughly what

 9     the problems were.  To my mind, he couldn't exert any influence on the

10     work of the SJBs that belonged to his centre.  He complained about - was

11     it Modrica or Samac or Derventa? - anyway, some stations belonging to his

12     centre.  The station chiefs, to my mind, had more power than he did.

13     That would be it.

14        Q.   Did he speak about military matters and how these things affected

15     the work of the centre?

16        A.   As for the relationship between the police and the military,

17     there were special problems, especially organisational problems, at the

18     centre.  I know the minister's orders.  And somebody told me when we set

19     off from the MUP - was it Goran Macar? I don't know - anyway, take a look

20     into that.  Apart from the crime and the murders and all that, take a

21     look at the relations between the SJBs and the CSB, and that was because

22     of the downsizing order.  And the military had objections against the

23     police organising itself in such a massive scale and due to combat

24     readiness, and this is the source of the conflict between the MUP and the

25     army.  They wanted some of these men to be re-subordinated to the

Page 21907

 1     military.  They were arguing that this was a brigade that wasn't

 2     really -- that the MUP didn't really need, or anybody else, so that they

 3     should be put at the disposal of the military.  It wasn't done then, but

 4     I know that other teams went there later.  And this man Petrovic, the

 5     station chief, didn't do it again, again failed to do it.

 6             So the stations were really very powerful.  But I cannot remember

 7     now if Petrovic was -- because we always contacted people from the

 8     service and not so much with those who were not from the service.  And as

 9     far as I know, we didn't really contact Petrovic at all.  Yes, we did,

10     actually, when it comes to the Crime Prevention Service.

11        Q.   When you say you contacted people from the service, who do you

12     mean?

13        A.   I mean the professionals who worked for the service before and

14     who were not newly appointed and for the simple reason that I didn't like

15     them, whoever had appointed them because they weren't professionals.

16        Q.   Did Mr. Petrovic belong to this second group of those who were

17     not professionals?

18        A.   Yes, that's how I saw him.

19        Q.   What happened after the meeting with Mr. Bjelosevic?  How did you

20     continue?

21        A.   We only had a short meeting with him.  And then, in line with our

22     instructions, we had a meeting with the chief of the

23     Crime Prevention Service, whose name is Vojo Blagojevic, I think.  And

24     then we inspected some files.  We were only interested in serious crimes

25     and whether they were registered, what the procedure -- what procedure

Page 21908

 1     was applied, were they entered in the relevant log-book, what activities

 2     were taken.  And we demanded that operative groups be set up, but they

 3     were also short of operatives and inspectors.  And we insisted that this

 4     be dealt with, that the prosecutor's office must receive all criminal

 5     reports, and that this should be tackled.  I know that there were some

 6     10 or 11 murders, and that was actually the subject of our meeting.

 7        Q.   Did you invite anybody from the judiciary to that meeting?

 8        A.   It was our initiative.  When the three of us arrived, it was some

 9     sort of a rule that first you go to the police and then you have a

10     meeting with them; then you go to the prosecutor's office, if there is

11     one, and the court.  And we are always careful to leave the initiative to

12     the prosecutor's office and the court first and then to the police,

13     because they should be the first to act, the prosecutors.

14             And then we had a meeting with the representative of the court

15     whose name was Sinisa Djordjevic.  He was a lawyer.  I don't know which

16     prosecutor was present.  And they especially pointed out the problem of

17     co-operation and, as far as I remember, the presence of the accused, that

18     is, providing security for him, and securing evidence or investigative

19     activities.  These are the problems that we discussed.  And with that

20     investigative activities, of course, there can be no results or a

21     criminal report.

22        Q.   Just tell us about the problem with the accused.  I think it

23     wasn't recorded properly.  What was the problem with the accused?  Could

24     you define it in one sentence.

25        A.   Well, I couldn't do it in one sentence because we in the police

Page 21909

 1     don't use the term "accused."  I said that it was the meeting with the

 2     court president.  We discussed it together, and they pointed out that

 3     they had problems, and these are their problems, with securing the

 4     accused for the court.

 5        Q.   When you say securing, you mean making sure that he's present?

 6        A.   Yes, that's exactly what I mean, making sure that he's present,

 7     that he's brought in, and all other investigative measures.

 8        Q.   I only intervened because it was recorded differently.

 9             Mr. Orasanin, let us focus on something else, if there's time.

10     You said that -- or, rather, you mentioned the files about this most

11     serious crimes.  What kind of crimes were those and what about those

12     files?

13        A.   Our first -- when we first went there, we spoke to the chief of

14     the Crime Prevention Service and he briefed us about some cases and crime

15     reports that were pending, and -- because we wanted to see whether they

16     were doing anything.  We insisted that these be submitted to the

17     prosecutor's office.  That was the basic thing.  And that something be

18     done to follow them up.  We only wanted that they should do what they

19     were supposed to, only what follows from our rules and instructions.  And

20     he briefed us on these murders.  And as far as I remember there was also

21     some white collar crime and there was also some violent crime, some 10 or

22     11 cases, I think.  There were a couple of murders with known

23     perpetrators, and these criminal reports were immediately submitted.  But

24     there were also cases with unknown perpetrators.  Then we wanted them to

25     draft operative plans and assign these tasks to some people.  That was

Page 21910

 1     our role.

 2        Q.   Just a moment.  Can you remember the structure of the victims

 3     from these most serious crimes, I mean violent crimes and murders?

 4        A.   I may be slightly off the mark but most victims were Bosniaks.

 5     Six, 7, there were a couple of Serbs maybe and one Croatia victim.  And

 6     when it comes to unknown perpetrators, there were some 9 or 10 or so.  I

 7     can't remember exactly.  And that was key because evidence had to be

 8     collected for those cases with unknown perpetrators and then for those

 9     files to be submitted to the prosecutor's office.

10        Q.   Were there any cases that had been submitted with prosecutor's

11     office before your arrival, and I mean the most serious crimes?

12        A.   As far as I remember, there may have been one criminal report

13     against a known perpetrator and maybe some criminal reports against

14     unknown perpetrators.

15        Q.   And about those that were pending, you mentioned the setting up

16     of some groups.  How did you assign the tasks?  That's what I would like

17     to know.

18        A.   I must say that we weren't duty-bound to do that.  We were just

19     inspecting.  It was up to the chief of the Crime Prevention Service

20     because he was the operative.  We didn't have our own operatives there;

21     we were from the centre.  And he was tasked to set up groups consisting

22     of operatives and forensic technicians to work on the detection of these

23     crimes and their perpetrators.  And of course it is a legal obligation

24     for the criminal report to be submitted to the prosecutor's office.

25        Q.   On page 77, I believe it's line 16, it was recorded

Page 21911

 1     74 operatives; did you mention any such number?

 2        A.   No, no, no.

 3        Q.   Let me ask you, did you have any own operatives that could have

 4     taken over that job?

 5        A.   No, no way.  74 operatives?  We didn't have as many in the whole

 6     administration, I think.  We have just seen how many operatives there

 7     were in the Crime Prevention and Detection Service.  But if we were to

 8     take all the operatives from the Banja Luka, Doboj, and Trebinje Centres

 9     and put them together, we wouldn't have more than 50, as far as I know.

10        Q.   Very well.  I just wanted to correct the transcript.  I didn't

11     want to dwell on this.

12             Mr. Orasanin, do you know whether these tasks that you assigned

13     to the chief of the administration with the centre were followed up after

14     your departure?

15        A.   As far as I know, another team went there later.  They visited

16     the Doboj Centre again.  And as far as I know, the criminal reports were

17     submitted to the prosecutor's office.  Of course, I wouldn't know how

18     much work had to be done to achieve that, but I know that the

19     prosecutor's office did receive criminal reports.  This has to do with

20     the instruction on the combatting of crime that we had taken over

21     earlier, so it was an obligation.  I'm not saying that we contrived

22     anything.  It was just a procedure.  And it's a fact that these criminal

23     reports were submitted to the prosecutor's office.

24        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, why is it important that a criminal report is

25     submitted to the prosecutor's office even against an unknown perpetrator?

Page 21912

 1        A.   According to the instructions.  And we are also duty-bound to do

 2     so.  I believe that any police in the world does it that way.  When a

 3     criminal offence is registered in the log-book, which is kept at the

 4     police station, then an on-site investigation is made by the

 5     investigative magistrate and a prosecutor, they conduct some activities,

 6     and the police and the crime enforcement service are there as assistants,

 7     and everybody does that part of the work.  In order to shed light on the

 8     offence, we must proceed in accordance with the Law on

 9     Criminal Procedure.  One of them is conducting an on-site investigation,

10     forensic activities, searches, interviews.  However, the law was

11     different at the time.

12             The Law on Criminal Procedure had a provision allowing the

13     investigative magistrate to transfer his work to the police, but that

14     only applied in case of lesser crimes.  In case of more serious crimes,

15     the investigative magistrate and the prosecutor had to be present.  And

16     the police only provided assistance as ordered by the person in charge of

17     the on-site investigation.  So the investigative magistrate and the

18     prosecutor play a much more important role than we.

19        Q.   I'll ask you one more question before the end.  Does this

20     anything have to do with the securing of evidence in relation to reports

21     against unknown perpetrators?  Why do you have to report to the

22     prosecutor?  Does that have to do with the securing of the evidence?

23        A.   Yes, of course.  If we know what the investigative actions are

24     and know what special investigative actions are, they cannot be

25     undertaken without an order.  That's how it was before.  As for how it is

Page 21913

 1     now, the prosecutor has more powers, as far as I know.  That's how things

 2     are at the moment.  So the organs of the interior do not do anything

 3     without the presence of the prosecutor.  And then we did things as we had

 4     before the war.  We were able to conduct things with verbal approval for

 5     minor crimes.  And that's why between 1992, and which is important, we

 6     were handicapped.  If the prosecutor's office or the court were not

 7     present, then the hands of the police were tied.  You could register a

 8     crime and keep the file in a drawer.  That was the case in Foca, for

 9     example.  We gave an order for an on-site investigation; however, there

10     was nobody present at the court.

11             I might have given a long explanation.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I note the time, and

13     I would like to move on to specific cases, which inspectors from the

14     administration looked at in Doboj.  That's a new topic, so it might be

15     good for us to break a little earlier today and continue tomorrow.

16             MS. KORNER:  Can I try one last time about leading questions.  A

17     question such as "does this have anything to do with securing of evidence

18     in relation to reports against unknown perpetrators, why do you have to

19     report to the prosecutor, does that have anything to do with the securing

20     of evidence?"  That is a leading question.  The proper question was the

21     one sentence in the middle, "why do you have to report to the

22     prosecutor?"  Anything else suggests the answer that you want.  And of

23     course, the upshot is that it devalues the evidence your own witness

24     gives.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So Mr. Cvijetic has again been reminded.  Thank you.

Page 21914

 1             Mr. Orasanin, we're about to take the adjournment for the day.  I

 2     am to remind you that having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any

 3     communication with counsel from either side until you are released by the

 4     Chamber.  Moreover, in such conversations as you may have with anybody

 5     else, you cannot discuss your testimony.  Do you understand what I've

 6     just said?

 7             So we take the adjournment to resume -- sorry.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I understood.

 9                           [The Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HALL:  We take the adjournment until tomorrow morning.

11     Thank you.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day

15                           of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.