Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21915

 1                           Tuesday, 7 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

12     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, Tatjana Savic, and Eugene O'Sullivan for the

15     Stanisic Defence.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

17     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             And if there are no housekeeping matters, may the witness be

20     escorted back to the stand, please.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Orasanin, good morning to you, sir.  Before

23     Mr. Cvijetic continues his examination-in-chief, I remind you you're

24     still on your oath.

25             Yes, Mr. Cvijetic, you may continue.

Page 21916

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           WITNESS: MILOMIR ORASANIN [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Mr. Cvijetic: [Continued]

 5        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, yesterday we began to discuss your visit to the

 6     Doboj CSB, do you remember?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   We'll deal with another topic that has to do with Doboj.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 1D356.

10             MS. KORNER:  Tab?

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That is tab 12.

12             I apologise, but could I ask the usher to hand the binder to the

13     witness.  Let me just check if we can see the document on the screen,

14     because I can't see it there.  Yes.

15        Q.   Please open the binder at tab 12.  Have you seen it, this

16     criminal report?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do read the report and then I'll ask you about it.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   While reviewing criminal reports at the Doboj CSB, did you see

24     this one?  Do you remember it?

25        A.   Now that I'm reading it and I see the date, the 1st of August,

Page 21917

 1     and the rest, then, yeah, I remember that this body was found in a

 2     freezer.  Yes, I remember this detail.  This criminal report was

 3     registered and submitted to the prosecutor's office.  The investigative

 4     magistrate was present at the on-site investigation.

 5        Q.   This report is dated 1 August.  As far as I remember, you were

 6     there after the criminal report had been submitted?

 7        A.   Yes.  Our visit was on the 25th of August.  That's when we

 8     visited the Doboj CSB.  And the offence was committed before and

 9     registered.  An on-site investigation was made, and the report was

10     submitted to the public prosecutor's office, as can be seen by the report

11     itself.  I remember.  This is one of the reports that we saw and

12     discussed.

13        Q.   Very well.  I'll show you another from the period before your

14     arrival.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D357.

16        Q.   Read the report, please, so it may jog your memory, and then I'll

17     ask you about it.  The tab number is 13.  I hope you found it.

18        A.   Yes, I did.  I'm reading the report.

19        Q.   Yes, try to refresh your memory.

20        A.   May I comment?

21        Q.   If you remember.  But very briefly tell us if you saw this

22     report.

23        A.   I've read it, and we discussed this report when we were in Doboj.

24     I remember since the tool used in the commission of the offence was a

25     knife, and I used -- I took a sheet of paper and put down the place and

Page 21918

 1     time of commission as well as the tool used.  That's why I remember.  An

 2     on-site investigation was made and the report was submitted to the

 3     prosecutor's office.  This is the second report of about a dozen.

 4             I'm not sure how many were against known and how many against

 5     unknown perpetrators, but I seem to remember the last name of the

 6     person -- last names of the persons mentioned here.  The criminal reports

 7     entered in the log also included this one.

 8        Q.   All right.  I only wanted to check whether these are the reports

 9     that you reviewed at the time.  They are already exhibits, so no need to

10     comment on them much.

11             You mentioned unknown perpetrators.  Was there a criminal report

12     against an unknown perpetrator where the victim was a Serb, do you

13     remember that?

14        A.   I spoke about it.  I don't remember how many reports were against

15     known perpetrators.  There was one criminal report against a Serb

16     perpetrator and the victim was also a Serb.  They were from the same

17     village and their names were similar.

18        Q.   No, but my question was whether there was a report where a Serb

19     was the victim and the perpetrator unknown.

20        A.   Yes, there were some such reports.  But the procedure was the

21     same whenever the perpetrator of a murder was unknown.  The offence was

22     registered --

23        Q.   Do explain what you said, the procedure was the same when there

24     was an unknown perpetrator; what exactly do you mean when you say that?

25        A.   When there was an unknown perpetrator, the procedure was the same

Page 21919

 1     regardless of the identity of the victim.  The identity or the ethnic

 2     affiliation of the victim didn't matter to us.

 3        Q.   All right.  I'll show you another criminal report.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's from the 65 ter list.  388D1.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Tab?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's tab 25.

 7        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, please read this and pay attention to the date the

 8     offence was committed.

 9        A.   May I comment?

10        Q.   My question is the same as about the previous two: Is this a case

11     of the type we discussed, an unknown perpetrator and a Serb victim?  Can

12     you draw that conclusion based on the names halfway through the text?

13     Take a look at the names of the victims.

14             MS. KORNER:  Just a moment.  Sorry.  I think we can all read this

15     and see what it says, but is it the case that the witness has seen this

16     before, at the time?

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he can't have seen

18     this criminal report when he was there.  But my question was the same

19     because I want to point out once more that the procedure was identical

20     regardless of who the victim was.  I'm not going to tender this criminal

21     report because he hasn't seen it, but --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please let me comment.  I wanted to

23     say with regard to the date, 10 November, we were there on 25 August and

24     clearly we couldn't have seen this, but the procedure and the way of

25     going about it were the same.  The reports that were registered before

Page 21920

 1     the 25th and -- which we analysed, it's the same as here.  The victims

 2     were Serbs but the procedure was the same regardless of who the victim

 3     was.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Well, that was the essence of my question.  Since you haven't

 6     seen this document before, I'm not going to tender it.

 7             Mr. Orasanin, do you know how long you stayed at Doboj?  When did

 8     your visit finish?

 9        A.   I think we spent the night at a hotel.  It may have been an old

10     people's home which was turned into a hotel.  On the following day we

11     visited the Banja Luka CSB, so it means that we stayed in Doboj two days.

12        Q.   This was going to be my next question, where did you move on to,

13     but you've already said that you moved on to Banja Luka.

14             Tell us, then, how long you stayed in Banja Luka or when you

15     actually arrived there?

16        A.   On the following day, having spent the night in Doboj, we set off

17     for Banja Luka.  As far as I remember, we went by way of Stanari.  That

18     was a route that we were able to take at the time, and we visited the

19     Banja Luka CSB.  That was our following visit to an organisational unit.

20     It was the Banja Luka CSB.

21        Q.   Very well.  Can you remember who came to meet you there?  Who did

22     you report to?

23        A.   I must be honest about it, when we arrived at the CSB in

24     Banja Luka, I called at a colleague, Vladimir Tutus, and I spoke to him.

25     And I believe that Nikola Milanovic and Ostoja went to see the deputy

Page 21921

 1     chief of the centre or possibly the chief himself.  I think the deputy

 2     chief was Bulic and they spoke to him.  But since I knew Vladimir Tutus,

 3     he was my generation at school, I called on him and I wanted to see the

 4     logs and hear what they were doing there.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Since you split, I'll ask you what you inspected in your

 6     line of work when you arrived in Banja Luka.

 7        A.   We did the same there as we had done pursuant to our

 8     instructions.  We reviewed the crimes log-book, what the SJBs do when

 9     they receive criminal complaints, whether they are submitted to the

10     prosecutor's office, whether the prosecutors get involved.  And as far as

11     I remember, the logs were in order.  They were kept in accordance with

12     the instructions.

13        Q.   What did you find there with regard to the processing of criminal

14     offences?  Did you inspect that, and what did you find out?

15        A.   As far as I remember, it was the same as in Doboj: criminal

16     reports were submitted to the prosecutor's office, they were registered,

17     and they engaged in some operative activities.  But I don't remember how

18     many they had.  They had a certain number of operatives.  I contacted one

19     inspector; his name was Jevic, Drago Jevic.  He was one of the inspectors

20     there at the station.

21        Q.   So what would be your assessment of the situation there with

22     regard to your line of work?

23        A.   We did the same thing as in Doboj.  We checked if criminal

24     reports were entered into the logs and whether they were acting in

25     accordance with the instructions about crime prevention and detection.  I

Page 21922

 1     remember that there was a lot of activity there.

 2        Q.   And what about your colleagues who went with you, did they do the

 3     same thing you did?

 4        A.   Yes, we had the same mission, the same task.  We were a team that

 5     was sent on behalf of the Crime Prevention Administration, so we shared

 6     the same task.  We were sent to see whether regulations were being

 7     applied, primarily the instruction on the prevention and detection of

 8     crimes.  That was our task and that was their task as well.

 9             I believe that Nikola Milanovic and I looked at some criminal

10     report that had been registered there.  However, if I were to look at the

11     reports, I might be able to remember them.  But anything that happened

12     before the 26th and 27th of August when we arrived, so I'm talking about

13     those reports, the reports that had been filed before those dates and

14     were processed by the crime prevention services in Banja Luka.

15        Q.   That would have been my next question.  When you arrived there,

16     had some of the cases already been processed and submitted to the

17     prosecutor's office?

18        A.   Yes, but I can't remember them.  If you were to show me some of

19     those reports, I would be able to remember them just as I did with those

20     from Doboj, when I remembered some three or four criminal reports that

21     were filed there.

22        Q.   Very well.  When you finished your visit to Banja Luka, where did

23     you go next?  Which route did you take, can you remember?

24        A.   We took the same way back, Stanari-Doboj-Modrica.  However, we

25     had received intelligence that the commander or the deputy commander of

Page 21923

 1     the police station in Doboj had been wounded at Samac and that's why we

 2     stopped to visit him, but just for a brief period, for half an hour.  We

 3     actually went to his house, visited him, and then we proceeded towards

 4     Brcko and Bijeljina.

 5             And I know that later on when we arrived in Bijeljina and when we

 6     looked at the situation there, some new activities were planned in order

 7     to prepare some other things and to find resources for the implementation

 8     of all the tasks that we had been engaged in Doboj and Samac and so on

 9     and so forth.  That was our plan for later.  And some people were engaged

10     after the 29th or 30th of August to implement that plan.

11        Q.   That would have been my next question precisely.  Maybe you can

12     tell us also whether what you had observed on the ground, should that

13     have been controlled, should some measures have been undertaken where you

14     noticed weaknesses?  You already said that there were plans, but if you

15     want to add something to that, go ahead.

16        A.   When we visited Doboj and Banja Luka, and since we were

17     affiliated with the same administration and we were very cautious when it

18     came to competences and authorities, at least I myself did not want to

19     interfere with other people's authorities, and we noticed that in Doboj

20     there were problems with manning the reserve police force and other

21     problems, so when we returned to Bijeljina, we had a proposal that there

22     should be a mixed team represented by the police administration, by

23     inspectors who would be more familiar with that part of the job.  And I

24     believe that later on a mixed team was indeed set up involving uniformed

25     police and police from the Administration for Crime Prevention.  We

Page 21924

 1     thought that it would be better if such a team was mixed.

 2        Q.   So did such a team indeed go to Doboj after you?

 3        A.   Yes, but I can't remember the date.  I don't remember whether

 4     that was perhaps 10 or 15 days later.  In any case, I remember that a

 5     person was sent on behalf of the police administration.  I believe that

 6     that was the assistant minister and Goran Macar on behalf of the crime

 7     prevention police, Radenko Vujicic perhaps, Cedo Tosic also, but I'm not

 8     sure.

 9        Q.   Well, if you can't remember any other details, never mind.  Let

10     me ask you this: During that subsequent visit, were they supposed to also

11     visit Samac?

12        A.   Yes, I believe that that was planned.  We were there only for

13     perhaps half an hour.  There were some problems there, and they were

14     supposed to go there and fix those problems.

15        Q.   Before I move on to your next visit, tell me something about your

16     method of work.  When you, for example, returned from a visit of that

17     kind, how did you report to your superior administration and your

18     superiors as to what you had seen?

19        A.   It was our obligation to file a report on our work, which

20     encompassed everything that we did pursuant to rules and regulations

21     dealing with such instructive visit.  And the terminology we used was

22     "visit" to police stations and crime prevention departments, the reason

23     being that there were no conditions in place in order to carry out a

24     complete supervision.  Pursuant to the prevalent laws, such a complete

25     supervision would have encompassed a lot more than we had time for.  We

Page 21925

 1     did not have time for a thorough inspection.  It would have taken at

 2     least five or six days to carry out such a thorough inspection, and

 3     that's why we filed a report on visits to police stations or tours of the

 4     police stations.

 5             As per rules, it should have been reports on the instructive

 6     supervision of the police stations.  The term itself implies a lot more

 7     obligations, a lot more things than we actually did, that's why we used a

 8     different terminology in our reports.

 9        Q.   And now this -- after your visits, were there supposed to be

10     instructive supervisions?

11        A.   Yes.  I know that this terminology was subsequently used once the

12     instruction on instructive supervision was drafted, but that was later.

13     In 1992, unfortunately regulations were lacking.  It was very early days,

14     so the administrations in the ministry were working on drafting proposals

15     for such future instructions, and it was the minister who was supposed to

16     issue such instructions pursuant to the Law on State Administration.  He

17     was the one who issued decisions, instructions, and regulations.

18             At that time, during the time, the period of transition, some of

19     the police stations were in the eastern part and were not encompassed by

20     the police administration and the ministry, and that's why there was a

21     gap, a shortage of regulations and rules.  I believe that rules and

22     regulations were finally issued in late 1992, or, rather, I think that

23     there was a rule on internal organisation that was in the pipeline.  I

24     don't know when it was actually issued.  Hence all the shortcomings.  And

25     that's why we called our visits "visit," although such things did not

Page 21926

 1     exist in the rules.  It was a huge responsibility.  It would have been a

 2     huge responsibility if we had called it an inspection supervision, since

 3     it was not.

 4        Q.   Since you touched upon the topic on regulations on internal

 5     organisation yesterday --

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, where are we going with this?

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm dealing with the

 8     things that the witness did on behalf of the Crime Prevention

 9     Administration.  I will be dealing with my -- with his next visit, and my

10     next question will pursue the team that he has just touched upon.  I want

11     to ask him whether before the regulations were issued did the minister

12     take any steps to remove all those who did not comply with the

13     regulations from the Ministry of the Interior; did he do that even before

14     regulations were issued.  And my next topic, the next thing that I'm

15     going to pursue, is his next visit, his next inspection.  That's how I've

16     planned it.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I believe the Chamber has been -- has been

18     receiving a lot of evidence about the rules and the procedures that

19     applied to these inspections, and I don't think that there's any

20     disagreement about it either from the Prosecution side.  So this seems to

21     be a very dry path to follow.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, we certainly accept, and we always

23     have, that the inspections took place.  What happened as a result of the

24     inspections is another matter.  But certainly inspections took place, and

25     we've got reports.

Page 21927

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So there you have it, Mr. Cvijetic.  Can I

 2     suggest that you proceed straight to the results of these inspections and

 3     the steps that the minister took in response to those reports.

 4             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, can I just make an observation.  In

 5     relation to the transcript on page 11, line 24, in that line you'll see a

 6     sentence begins with the words "all those such things," and I believe the

 7     interpreter said "although such things."

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Cvijetic.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the minister to

11     do something, he has to receive report from the ground.  For example, the

12     next visit by the team that went --

13             MS. KORNER:  No speeches, thank you.  Not while the witness is

14     listening.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I'm trying to answer

16     Judge Harhoff's remark and answer his question.  Please don't interrupt

17     me while I'm doing that.  I am explaining why I want to deal with the

18     next issue with the witness.

19             MS. KORNER:  That's fine.  But the witness, if he doesn't -- I

20     don't know whether he speaks English or not, should take his headphones

21     off while you explain, if he doesn't speak English.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Orasanin, are you -- do you speak English?

23     Do you understand English?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.

Page 21928

 1             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, he also needs

 2     to turn off the microphone because otherwise he gets the translations.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, we hope that you will be able to

 5     address us in this matter in English.  If that is not an option --

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, you know, it's not an

 7     option.

 8             JUDGE HARHOFF:  If this is not the case, then we should ask the

 9     witness to leave the courtroom for a short while.

10             JUDGE HALL:  But before we go on with this, returning to the

11     intervention that Judge Harhoff made earlier and Ms. Korner's response,

12     there is no issue, Mr. Cvijetic, as to whether these reports were done,

13     so I'm at a loss as to why you still consider it necessary to pursue the

14     fact of these reports having gone up.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there's a report

17     which hasn't been admitted and we want to tender it because it is in our

18     interest, and that report is about the last visit.  I don't know why I

19     should be prevented from tendering it.  And those visits that the witness

20     is talking about actually illustrate the method of work that was applied

21     by the Crime Prevention Administration and the ministry.  Even after such

22     short visits high-quality instructive inspections were prepared pursuant

23     to the minister's decisions and orders, and once the minister received

24     reports, the minister would react with documents that have already been

25     admitted.

Page 21929

 1             I'm just trying to lay the foundation as to what preceded and

 2     what the minister learned about what was going on on the ground, what was

 3     the organisation on the ground, what the weaknesses were, and how he

 4     reacted.  I'm just trying to give you the logical course of events in

 5     practical terms from the visit to the decisions by the minister.  In

 6     other words, this visit -- this witness participated in another visit.  I

 7     would like him to tell us something about it, and I would like to tender

 8     a report from that visit that has still not been admitted into evidence.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Cvijetic, for your account.  But

11     you see, if you look at the clock, it has taken you 45 minutes to get

12     here to the question of whether or not this witness filed a report after

13     his inspections and whether he submitted this report to the minister.  I

14     really don't find all the background that you have taken the witness to

15     explain to be very useful to the Chamber because we know that these

16     inspections took place and the Prosecution agrees and stipulates to the

17     fact that they did take place.  So this is an example, Mr. Cvijetic, of

18     the way we would like you to proceed when we continue, namely to get

19     straight to the point, and not seek to go through every piece of evidence

20     which we really don't need in the end.  Is that understood?

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] If the report of the visits to the

22     following four municipalities that Mr. Orasanin with his team of

23     inspectors went to isn't anything you need, then I can drop the remaining

24     examination on these matters.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I think you should actually drop them because

Page 21930

 1     what the Chamber needs in terms of evidence is proof of the information

 2     that was passed from this witness up to the ministry and to the minister.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] But that's what we've been

 4     discussing all the time, Your Honour.  This is the official way of

 5     receiving information on the part of the minister.  And so if that is not

 6     relevant, I don't know how to proceed.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Cvijetic, the criminal reports that you have

 8     brought to the witness this morning are of no significance in respect of

 9     what this witness reported up to the minister after his inspections.  We

10     know that the criminal reports were made in the CSBs and in the SJBs, and

11     the Prosecution agrees to it.  We know that the inspections took place,

12     and the Prosecution agrees to that as well.

13             Now, from this point on, the crucial element is:  What was the

14     results of these inspections, did the inspectors file reports up to the

15     minister, and what was the contents of these reports; and secondly, did

16     the minister ever receive the reports.

17             In terms of the charges in the indictment, this is really the

18     evidence that we're looking for.

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, all this you're

20     looking for you can hear from this witness and see in these documents.

21     This is the very thing.  What follows, and I can say for the sake of

22     reference, is 65 ter 33D1 in relation to which I want to discuss the

23     Visegrad municipality, which is covered by the indictment.  If do you not

24     care to hear that, we will not deal about it, but that was going to be

25     next.  It's a written report of the visit conducted.  This is what you

Page 21931

 1     are looking for, a written report about the situation in these stations.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] Mr. Cvijetic, 65 ter --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry.  65 ter 33D1 is a report of inspection to

 6     the minister, as I understand it; right?  Or to the ministry; right?  So

 7     that's the kind of evidence we are indeed looking for, and you should

 8     certainly not drop that one.  If it's related to municipalities in the

 9     indictment.

10             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] What is the tab number,

11     please?

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That would be tab number - where is it? - 32, if

13     I'm not wrong.

14             Is that right, Mr. Cvijetic, tab number 32?

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, it's tab 29.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's a criminal report once again.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  65 ter 33D1 is

18     under tab 29, and it's a report on the visit to Foca, Cajnice, Rudo, and

19     Visegrad.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm mixing up the tab numbers.

21     It's indeed 29 and it's indeed the report on inspection.  So that one, if

22     that's a report of this witness to go to the ministry, you should proceed

23     and ask the witness about it, indeed.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So, Mr. Cvijetic, now that you -- it's been -- now

25     that we understand where we're going, could the usher please escort the

Page 21932

 1     witness back in.

 2             Just a moment, please.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, can I just ask where this document comes

 4     from?  The one you're going to be showing the witness.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It is best to ask the witness

 6     that.  Oh, yes, and we got it from this witness.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.  I don't want to go through any more

 8     questions like with Mr. Bjelosevic.  If I could be given, please, a list

 9     of anything that is in this binder which comes from this witness, please,

10     just to save time asking each time.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Do I take it, Mr. Cvijetic, that your silence should

12     be interpreted as an affirmative response to Ms. Korner's request?

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We are checking, Your Honours.  I

14     know that we received this report from him.  We may have received some

15     other things.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm not expecting Mr. Cvijetic -- I'm

17     not expecting an immediate answer from Mr. Cvijetic.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Only two documents, that's not a

19     problem.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And they are announced already.

22     But the witness will explain, but I believe we only received two

23     documents from him.  That is not so much.

24        Q.   Mr. Orasanin - let us just wait for the English

25     translation - please open the binder at tab 29.  Take a look, sir.  Do

Page 21933

 1     you recognise this report?

 2        A.   Yes, I do.  It's our report.

 3        Q.   We have to explain yet how the Defence came by this document.  Or

 4     let me ask you straightaway: Did you give it to us?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.  I had this report on me, but I didn't have it when I

 6     was interviewed by the investigators.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Orasanin, during this inspection, you visited the

 8     SJBs of Foca, Cajnice, Rudo, and Visegrad, so just tell us to which CSB

 9     do these SJBs belong?

10        A.   In 1992 when we were there in early September, the SJBs of Foca,

11     Cajnice, Rudo, and Visegrad belonged to the Trebinje CSB.  And if

12     necessary, I can also say what the pre-war organisation was.  Foca

13     belonged to Gorazde and so did Cajnice.  I'm not sure about Rudo.

14        Q.   Is that a group of SJBs that were left without their CSB once the

15     war broke out?

16        A.   Yes.  It's the same case as with the SJBs along the Drina.  They

17     belonged to Gorazde.  And as far as the crime prevention service is

18     concerned, they were left hanging.  Later they were -- they were placed

19     under the authority of a CSB.

20        Q.   It wasn't recorded which CSB.

21        A.   The one of Trebinje in 1992.

22        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, please turn the page and find the Visegrad SJB.

23             Have you read it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

Page 21934

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Halfway through there is a statement that the prosecutor's office

 4     and the court have not started operating.  Can you see it?

 5        A.   Yes.  If I may explain, it was the same as in Rudo, Visegrad, and

 6     Foca.

 7        Q.   Please read the final section.  You also propose measures to be

 8     taken to improve the situation.  Please read that part.

 9        A.   Yes.  This is our proposal and a comment that more attention

10     should be given to these SJBs.  The Trebinje CSB visits these stations

11     rarely, that is, they aren't covered.  And there's also a statement about

12     the prosecutor's office and the court.  So our proposal was to provide

13     them technical assistance or professional assistance.

14        Q.   Did the ministry or your administration react to improve the

15     situation?  Did anybody go there later?

16        A.   As far as I remember, after our stay there was discussion in our

17     administration that Nikola Milanovic, I think, and Sinisa Karan should go

18     there after some time once the shortcomings are rectified.  The following

19     visit was planned and the ones to go there were Sinisa Karan and --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name of the

21     second person.

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Apart from Sinisa Karan, who was to go there?

24        A.   I think it was Nikola Milanovic to go there on behalf of the

25     Crime Prevention Administration.

Page 21935

 1        Q.   Very well.  I'll show you the following document --

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but first I seek to tender

 3     this document because this is a report signed by this witness.

 4             MS. KORNER:  No objections, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D571, Your Honours.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'm going to show you another document also dealing with

 9     Visegrad.  P633 is its number.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, tab 9.

12        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to the second page in the

13     Serbian version.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In English it could easily be

15     page 3.  In the English version it's the last paragraph on this page.

16     And in the Serbian version I've already told you it's on page 2,

17     paragraph 3, starting with the words "from the early days, the Visegrad

18     Public Security Station has functioned."

19        Q.   Do you see that?

20        A.   The third paragraph?

21        Q.   Yes, the third paragraph.  We can all read, can't we?

22        A.   Yes, this gives an overview of the situation in the public

23     security station, a lack of staff, and it says that there were only five

24     professional police officers there.  This is what the report is about.

25     It highlights the shortage of the professional police staff.

Page 21936

 1        Q.   Yes.  We could all read that, but I would like to ask you this --

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, "we could all read that," you say,

 3     but we can't.  It's probably the next page in English.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, yes, it does go on to

 7     the following page.  That's why you actually couldn't read it.  Very

 8     well.

 9        Q.   Now, what you have just told us, that there were only five active

10     police officers, but I'm interested in the introductory part where it

11     says that the leadership of that police station had the War Presidency of

12     Visegrad; this is something I wanted to ask you about: Did you know about

13     that when you arrived in Visegrad?

14        A.   Yes, all the police stations in the eastern part were appointed

15     by the War Presidency.  That was the case in Skelani and Visegrad.  The

16     local government, or, rather, the War Presidency appointed a commander

17     and a deputy commander, and that was not a problem only in Visegrad but

18     also in all the other police stations that I mentioned yesterday,

19     Zvornik, Visegrad, Skelani, and that was that the War Presidency

20     appointed the leadership staff in the police stations.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] In the English version we will see

24     that on the previous page where the War Presidency is mentioned.  Can we

25     go to the previous page for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.  We are

Page 21937

 1     looking for page 3 in English to be displayed in e-court.  The last

 2     paragraph, yes.

 3        Q.   You've already answered my question about the War Presidency.

 4     Could you please move on to the following page, page 3 in the Serbian

 5     version, and you will see a reference to the reserve police force in the

 6     third paragraph.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Obviously we will have to see what

 8     page this is on in the English version.  I believe it's on page 4 in

 9     e-court in the English version.  It will be the last paragraph.

10        Q.   Can you please take a moment to read the paragraph which in the

11     English version goes on to the following page.  It's a lengthy paragraph.

12             I will give you a moment to read that paragraph in the Serbian

13     version of the document and then I'll have questions for you.

14             Did you read it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Very well.  In the first part it says that there were 150 reserve

17     policemen to begin with.  I'm not interested in what it says, but what I

18     would like to know is whether you were instructed to reduce the number of

19     police officers, reserve policemen, where there were too many?

20        A.   Again, this was a prevalent problem in 1992.  This was an

21     instruction or an order which I remember, it was issued by the minister,

22     for the reserve police strength to be reduced in compliance with the

23     organisation and to remove those that did not comply with the

24     requirements.  And here you can see that the number was reduced from 150

25     to 40 reserve policemen.  There's reference to some crimes and

Page 21938

 1     difficulties in preventing crimes in the territory of the

 2     Visegrad Police Station.

 3        Q.   Wait, let's look at the last part where paramilitary formations

 4     are mentioned and also the problems that they were causing.  The question

 5     is -- the question is very specific: Were you informed about this problem

 6     once you inspected the police station in Visegrad?

 7        A.   I know that Nikola Milanovic spoke to Perisic.  I personally

 8     didn't.  That is why he planned a subsequent visit to the police station

 9     in Foca, because there was a problem with those groups that prevented the

10     police from doing their work.  They looted property, they broke in

11     apartments.  My colleague spoke to the chief, and my colleague also was

12     the one who planned a subsequent visit after our return.  I know all

13     that.

14        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Orasanin, could you please tell us which route

15     you took in order to visit those four police stations?  How many

16     kilometres did you do on your visit?

17        A.   I must say that it was a problem, the problem with regard to our

18     stay and the conditions of our stay.  The total distance was over

19     500 kilometres from the moment we departed from either Bijeljina or Pale.

20     In order to reach Visegrad and Foca, you have to do over 500 kilometres.

21     If you wanted to take a short cut via Sarajevo to Pale to Foca, it would

22     have been 80 kilometres.  We had to cross the territory of the present

23     three states.  We had to go to Serbia along the right bank of the

24     Drina River, across Tara Mountain, and then we had to go to the

25     Republic of Montenegro via Pljevlja along some scenic macadam roads

Page 21939

 1     barely passable.  We used such roads, and that's why we visited Cajnice

 2     and Rudo as well, because they were on our route.  We took some adjacent

 3     auxiliary routes to all those places.  We encountered some problems and

 4     difficulties on our way.  We even encountered some threats, but it's

 5     neither here nor there.

 6        Q.   Did you use the same route to go to the Security Services Centre

 7     in Trebinje?

 8        A.   Yes, the same, there's no other road.  You had to go from

 9     Bijeljina via Zvornik, then you have to cross to a different state, and

10     then along the left river bank, cross Bajina Basta, Tara, you have to

11     cross the border to Montenegro, and then arrive in the territory of

12     Pljevlja.  And then you take a right turn towards Foca or you go via

13     Trebinje; in other words, you could have continued through Montenegro via

14     Puzine to arrive in Trebinje.  You had to cross almost entire Montenegro

15     to get to Trebinje because that was the only safe road at the time.

16        Q.   Thank you.  When was it possible to take the shortest possible

17     way?  When did that road become passable?

18        A.   As far as I can remember, that was in 1993, but I'm not sure.

19     I'm talking about the road leading from Sarajevo to Trnovo and then on to

20     Karanovac and Foca and then Gacko, Bilice, Trebinje.  That is the road.

21     I believe that it became passable in mid-1993.

22        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Orasanin, we have seen that you took four

23     different routes for your visits.  I'm not sure that there were four.

24     Could you tell us how many such visits and trips did you take while you

25     worked in the Crime Prevention Administration?

Page 21940

 1        A.   There were four visits.  One was a visit to the area of Podrinje,

 2     including Skelani, Brcko, Zvornik, Bijeljina, Vogosca, and Ilijas.  And

 3     then another one to Doboj and Banja Luka.  And the fourth visit was along

 4     the route that I've just described.  The first visit was to Foca, and

 5     then on return we visited Visegrad, Rudo, Cajnice.  That was the fourth

 6     visit that we undertook.

 7        Q.   Did your colleagues from the administration cover any other areas

 8     that you yourself did not visit?

 9        A.   As far as I can remember, one team of inspectors did visit, or,

10     rather, revisit Samac and Doboj.  That was probably sometime in

11     September, October.  Maybe they even went twice.  They visited Brcko, and

12     I believe that a team was sent to the area of Trebinje as well.  And

13     there was also a plan in place to pay another visit to Visegrad.  One

14     team was to be sent to visit Visegrad and Foca, but I can't remember.  I

15     left the Crime Prevention Administration, so I'm not familiar with any of

16     the detail.

17             I'm sure that a team did go just as I have just said, that they

18     went to Doboj and Samac.

19        Q.   Slow down a little.  It is not clear from the transcript that

20     there were four visits.  It seems that all those stations were visited on

21     one visit.  Can you do it to make a clear separation between those

22     visits?

23        A.   The first visit was to Zvornik, Skelani, Foca, Brcko, and

24     Bijeljina.  That was the first visit.  The second visit was to Vogosca

25     and Ilijas.  The third visit was to Doboj and Banja Luka and stopping in

Page 21941

 1     Samac.  And the fourth and last visit was to Foca, Rudo, Cajnice, and

 2     Visegrad.

 3        Q.   Let me just ask you, you said that you visited Foca the first

 4     time around and you omitted Zvornik?

 5        A.   The first one was Zvornik, Skelani, Brcko, and Bijeljina.  That

 6     was the first visit.

 7        Q.   So no Foca?

 8        A.   No, no.  No Foca.  We visited Foca in September, not earlier.

 9        Q.   I just wanted to make that clear for the record.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I note the time.

11     I'm about to move on to the topic that I've already announced and that is

12     the drafting of some regulations by the Ministry of the Interior, and

13     this witness participated in the drafting of those proposals.  And this

14     is a completely separate topic from the topic of visits, that's why I

15     think it would be a good idea to take a break now and then after the

16     break I would be prepared to move on to that next topic.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Very well, so we would resume in 20 minutes.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, during any stage of the proceedings or the

25     procedure, did you participate in drafting some legal regulations that

Page 21942

 1     were later signed by the minister and passed by the minister?

 2        A.   Yes.  This had to do with the Administration for Crime Prevention

 3     and specifically about war crimes and deposits made, registrations and

 4     similar.

 5        Q.   That's exactly what I called it, because these documents are

 6     signed and adopted by the minister.  But what I wanted to know was how

 7     such a document would reach the minister and how that text of that

 8     document would be drafted.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to show you two

10     documents.  First the exhibit which is Exhibit 1D538, tab 33.

11        Q.   Have you read it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This dispatch -- we see in this dispatch the minister of the

14     interior is urging other people to take action pursuant to a document.

15        A.   Yes, I can see that.  I can see the dispatch.

16        Q.   And mention is made there that anyone who should fail to take the

17     measures as required would be called to duty.  Can you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Is this the area that you mentioned earlier that you were

20     involved in drafting?

21        A.   Yes.  The minister is requesting here that certain actions have

22     to be taken that relate to deposits made.

23        Q.   Very well.  Could you now tell us, please, what is the purpose of

24     registering deposits in a SJB, in a public security station?  And you

25     will tell us where that was done.

Page 21943

 1        A.   Well, according to the rules on registering deposits, each public

 2     security station has the duty to have a log-book of deposits, and the

 3     rules actually regulate this issue, how items are to be handled.  And

 4     specifically it describes the items that are involved or related to crime

 5     proceedings.  So once a criminal report is submitted to the prosecution,

 6     the competent prosecutor's office, then those items are deposited, but in

 7     fact those deposited items are now within the jurisdiction of the court.

 8     So the public security stations have to keep track and have a log-book of

 9     such deposits.  And here we see that the minister is requesting to be

10     informed on the deposits that had been made and whether they have been

11     done in a proper way as required by the rules.

12        Q.   Well, the reason I'm asking you about this is this:  Was there

13     any -- were there any reports that there were abuses of these items that

14     had been deposited?  Do you know anything about that?

15        A.   Well, I can't recall any specific case, but I assume that this

16     dispatch actually is the result of such possible reports that in some

17     public security stations there were some abuses or that the procedure for

18     registering deposited items was not properly enforced.  And that's quite

19     clear.  But then there are also other deposits that have to do with

20     reserve goods, and that would be guided and regulated by another set of

21     rules, and this specific dispatch is actually something that reflects

22     that procedure.

23        Q.   Very well.  I will show you another document that was sent by the

24     minister, 1D64, since you mentioned the reserves, strategic reserves.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's tab 31.

Page 21944

 1        Q.   Would you please read this order issued by the minister and then

 2     we will briefly comment on it.

 3             Have you read it?

 4        A.   Yes, it's very clear.

 5        Q.   Is it clear?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Could you please now just answer my question: Does this order

 8     relate to the other type of items and the other type of registered

 9     deposits?

10        A.   Well, yes, this has do with commodity reserves.  And as far as I

11     can recall, this was done at the level of the municipality by the

12     authorities.  There was a commission, I believe, that would compile such

13     items.  But here we see that those items that were subject to a criminal

14     investigation, that they should be handled by the public security

15     stations, whereas the items that were under the law within the competence

16     of the commodity reserves, that they should be handed over to the

17     commodity reserves organs.  So here it is also said that if anyone should

18     not abide by these instructions, that they would be punished.  In other

19     words, abuses would be punished.

20        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to show you the

22     instructions on keeping a log of reserves, and that would be -- or

23     rather, of keeping a log of all deposits, and that would be under

24     65 ter -- that's 65 ter 117D1.  Tab 32.  Let's just wait for the English

25     version to come up and then we'll proceed.

Page 21945

 1        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, we will just take a brief look at the first page.

 2     This is the cover letter sent by the chief of the

 3     Security Services Centre, Krsto Savic.  The Security Services Centre in

 4     Trebinje.  And he is forwarding and distributing this document within his

 5     Security Services Centre.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like us to see

 7     page 2, the next page.

 8        Q.   Would you please take a look at this.  Is this a document which

 9     was drafted among others by you, or, rather, you took part in the

10     drafting of this document, can you recognise it?

11        A.   Well, yes, these are instructions on how to store items, and we

12     actually prepared a draft version as the public security station but this

13     document was in fact done by the legal services.  However, the items in

14     these instructions are the ones that we proposed.  We had a typed-written

15     version because we didn't -- we just had a typewriter, we didn't have any

16     other type of device.  But the subject matter and the contents of these

17     instructions are the same, and this is -- these instructions were the

18     ones that were adopted and passed by the minister after they have been

19     given the proper legal form.

20        Q.   Very well.  I just wanted to show how such documents were sent to

21     the minister and how they were forwarded to the minister for signing, for

22     his signature.  Now, I do also have that typewritten form, but I would

23     just like it to show it briefly to you, that's 1D06, so that you can --

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] So 1D065505.

25        Q.   And I would like to show it to you so that you can just confirm

Page 21946

 1     for us whether that is the original document that you had typewritten.

 2     And that's under tab 37.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] We can keep the same English

 4     version because the documents are identical, and we do not actually have

 5     a translation of the typewritten document.  So can we just keep them as

 6     they are on the screen now.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Orasanin, please take a look at this document and tell

 8     us whether you recognise your own work, as it were, if I may put it that

 9     way.  And do you recognise the tripe writer that was used to type it up?

10     You can see it on the left-hand side, please take a look.  You also have

11     a hard copy, and that's under tab -- oh, my apologies.  I will give it to

12     you in the moment.  It's not in the binder.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could I have the assistance of the

14     usher.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well I can see it on the screen.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Very well, but you will also get the original document, the hard

18     copy.

19             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] ... what number is this?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it was announced.  It was

21     under number 37.

22        Q.   Now, please take a look at the hard copy.  Do you recognise it?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Please tell us whether that's the document in question.

25        A.   Yes, because I know that this typewriter would also sometimes go

Page 21947

 1     and type in a slanted way.  You can see it in the signature that it's not

 2     parallel to the other lines because it was a tiny little machine, a Bizer

 3     typewriter.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Now, you were the agency that proposed such a

 5     document.  Now, what was the next step?

 6        A.   Well, the next step was this would go to the legal administration

 7     and they would give it proper legal form and then it would be forwarded

 8     by them to the minister.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now, I will touch upon another document

10     where you were involved in its drafting, at least as far as the text was

11     concerned.  So could we see 1D63 now.

12             That's tab 35.  My apologies, I haven't said it?

13             Do you have it before you?  That's tab 35?  Yes, that's the one.

14     Now please take a look at the cover letter first before you look at the

15     form.  Here we see that the form or questionnaire is being forwarded, and

16     you can see from the first paragraph that it's a form which would be used

17     to enter information regarding war crimes.  Can you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And do you see there that it also says that it should be entered

20     regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrator against whom the report,

21     criminal reports, have been submitted?  Are you familiar with this?

22        A.   Well, yes, but this was also worked on and further expanded at

23     the minister's cabinet.

24        Q.   Could you please take a look at the next page.

25        A.   And as far as I can recall, we took this document with us when we

Page 21948

 1     went to the field.  We didn't wait for this to be officially forwarded.

 2     We took it with us when we went in the field, and it did have to do with

 3     war crimes.  And it's true that -- well, at that time no one even

 4     considered the aspect of ethnicity.  That was not something that was

 5     taken into account at all.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we just see page 2 so that we

 7     can take a look at that questionnaire, or form.  That's the next page in

 8     e-court.

 9        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, this form has a certain name.  It says, in the

10     title, "Form RZ."  Could you please tell us what "RZ" stands for in our

11     language?

12        A.   Well, this form was type written in the Cyrillic script, and RZ

13     stands for war crimes, "ratni zlocin."  In other words, victims of war

14     crimes, that's what RZ indicates.  In other words, regardless of the

15     ethnicity of the victim, all information was captured in this general

16     form.

17        Q.   Very well.  Now, was there another form -- was there a special

18     form that was to be used in the cases where Serbs were the victims?

19        A.   Well, yes, there was a different type of form.

20        Q.   What kind of designation did it have?

21        A.   R1.  So this is "ratni zlocin," war crimes, and general.  In

22     other words, of general aspect.

23        Q.   Well, but in your response you said "R1."  Would it be, in fact,

24     "RZ1"?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  RZ1.

Page 21949

 1        Q.   These forms and the instructions to register war crimes, did you

 2     carry them with you to the field?

 3        A.   Yes.  We were duty-bound to submit these forms and enter

 4     information in them, and they would be forwarded to the analyses

 5     department.

 6        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Orasanin, I'll show a document now, 1D065506 or

 7     920D1.  Tab 38, I apologise.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we were informed by

 9     the translation service that the English translation of this document is

10     due any minute.  It was only disclosed on Thursday.  Therefore, I suggest

11     that the witness read out the contents of this dispatch from

12     Minister Stanisic or that I move on to my last topic and then we can get

13     back to this document once the translation has arrived.  This dispatch is

14     very important.

15        Q.   I'll just ask the witness now whether he knows this dispatch.

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Since he knows this dispatch, we

18     would like to tender it.  But I ask the Trial Chamber how I should go

19     about it and have it done by the end of today?

20             MS. KORNER:  I'm really sorry, but I haven't the faintest idea

21     what it says.  So we can have the witness read it out and then I'll see,

22     but at the moment this is not something I know whether I can agree to or

23     not.

24             JUDGE HALL:  I, too, thought of having him read it out, but then

25     we would still have to return to it once we have the translation.

Page 21950

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So perhaps Mr. Cvijetic's alternative of moving on

 3     to something else then returning to that is the better course.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, I wanted to discuss this with you at the end, but

 6     we are still waiting for the English translation and then we'll see what

 7     we'll do next.

 8             When you spoke about the regulations on internal organisation,

 9     you said that a condition for somebody to be issued a final appointment

10     as a MUP employee was to meet the requirements of the regulations.  You

11     said that it was not in force in 1992 and that everybody only got

12     temporary appointments.

13             Did the minister intervene by issuing orders to alleviate the

14     situation in the ministry at least somewhat and remove those who did not

15     meet the legal conditions?

16             MS. KORNER:  Again, Your Honour, I've resisted this morning

17     objecting to leading questions, but that one is really atrocious.  The

18     proper question is, What did the minister do, if anything?

19             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I disagree that the question is as

20     leading as that, Your Honours.  And the question was, Did the minister

21     take any steps to alleviate the situation.  I believe -- well, this is

22     the proper question.

23             JUDGE HALL:  We agree with Ms. Korner here, Mr. Cvijetic.  The

24     question could have been differently put.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Then I'm going to rephrase.

Page 21951

 1        Q.   How did the minister alleviate the situation until the

 2     regulations entered into force?

 3        A.   As far as I know -- or, rather, I remember an order or a dispatch

 4     from 1992 which was sent out to the SJBs, or the CSBs and then forwarded

 5     to the SJBs, to review the staffing level of the organisational units,

 6     that the number of staff should be reduced and adapted to the

 7     organisational structure, and that the -- those members of the police

 8     should be removed who did not meet the conditions.  And those were both

 9     the general and the special conditions under both the labour law and the

10     Law on Internal Affairs which gives special powers to police staff based

11     on checks that are conducted to find out whether they are suitable for

12     police work, and those members were from public security.  They have

13     special powers and can exercise police powers.

14             Another group consists of those who do not belong to this sector,

15     that is, those who work in the administration and legal department.  The

16     latter should be removed and placed at the disposal of the military.

17     Those who are responsible for any wrong-doing should be subject to

18     disciplinary action but only if they are proper police staff, because

19     only as such are they liable to disciplinary proceedings.  It was also

20     proposed that they be given temporary appointments which entail what I've

21     just said.

22        Q.   Was the purpose of these orders achieved?

23        A.   Yes, certainly.  Except in some stations.  I don't remember

24     whether Doboj carried out what they were duty-bound to do.  As far as the

25     reserve police force is concerned, I said yesterday that they were --

Page 21952

 1     there were shortcomings or, rather, resistance to the minister's order

 2     which was very clear.  I remember Doboj.  I can't remember whether there

 3     was anything like that in other municipalities or SJBs.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Do you know anything about the operation against

 5     paramilitaries in Zvornik?

 6        A.   I'm familiar with these details because I was to be the duty

 7     officer in the crime prevention service of the MUP.  The operation was

 8     prepared earlier because there was intelligence about the presence of

 9     paramilitaries.  It was my duty to be on duty shift and follow the

10     activities of the Crime Prevention Department, whatever was happening in

11     the field.  But other people went out to implement it, to carry it out.

12     As far as I know, a special unit also took part.  But we had to wait a

13     bit for it all to be organised because we lacked some equipment.

14        Q.   I'm not going to ask you about that operation because you weren't

15     in the field to take part directly.  Let me just ask you what the role of

16     inspectors from the Crime Prevention Administration in such an operation

17     was?

18        A.   As I said, I didn't take direct part.  But the role of a crime

19     prevention inspector was to assist the local inspectors to carry it out.

20     I know that Nikola Milanovic, I think, took part, and so did

21     Ostoja Minic.  The administration was to draft an operative plan for the

22     implementation of the operation, but there was also the police

23     administration who had their plan, and they had their materiel and

24     technical equipment.

25             Our plan that we worked out at the

Page 21953

 1     Crime Prevention Administration became an annex.

 2        Q.   What exactly was envisaged by that plan?

 3        A.   The interviewing of persons, the arresting of persons, any

 4     investigative activities, given the approval of the investigative

 5     magistrate and the prosecutor, and anything else that the police has a

 6     right to do.

 7        Q.   Very well.  Were you personally to take part in this operation

 8     that we can call Foca now, and if so, in what capacity?

 9        A.   Well, it's been a long time.  I can't remember everything.  After

10     the operation, and it was all in August, all these planned activities of

11     the MUP, I was convinced that the operation had been carried out without

12     my participation because I was transferred to another position.  We were

13     drafting an operative plan for going to Foca.

14        Q.   But my question was only: Did you have the opportunity to see an

15     order about the execution of such an operation?

16        A.   Yes.  That's why I was convinced that it had indeed taken place.

17     I remember that I drafted the operative plan and the order was clear.

18     There was something in that order that I remember.  There was the order

19     to arrest those paramilitaries that were called terrorist groups.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt and

21     object.  At the moment Your Honours, as it were, adjourned your ruling on

22     this matter.  I think we need an explanation of how this is relevant, as

23     Foca is not within the indictment nor have Your Honours heard anything

24     about the events in Foca.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic --

Page 21954

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE HALL: -- when Ms. Korner adumbrated this matter yesterday,

 3     you indicated that you only intended to touch on Foca.  The Chamber, as

 4     Ms. Korner has rightly said, never ruled on her objection, and it seems

 5     that the time has come for you to formulate a response that would enable

 6     the Chamber to rule.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [No interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honours, I'm afraid it would have to be

 9     in the absence of the witness.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I'm sorry, that struck me as well.

11             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Orasanin, from time to time, these procedural

13     matters arise which are best taken out of the hearing of the witness, so

14     again I would ask the usher to escort you from the room for the time

15     being, while we resolve this matter.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I said yesterday,

18     I will not deal with the events in Foca.  I will deal with the events at

19     Pale and Minister Stanisic's order to carry out that operation.  Why?  I

20     will deal with the intention of Minister Stanisic, and it is relevant for

21     his responsibility under the indictment.  His intention to eradicate

22     negative occurrences in the RS.  We want to point out that this was not a

23     single operation or two sporadic operations but a sequence of continuous

24     operations as soon as the conditions were met, from Brcko to Bijeljina to

25     Zvornik to Foca.

Page 21955

 1             In other words, I am dealing with the mens rea of Mico Stanisic

 2     and his persistence in coping with these occurrences, and it can be seen

 3     in the order to launch the operation in Foca.  This witness was saying

 4     that he personally read the order and, based on that, drafted an

 5     operative plan of action for the crime prevention service to carry out

 6     the tasks that Mr. Stanisic had given them.  Tasks were also assigned to

 7     anybody else involved in that operation, that is, the special unit of the

 8     police, the police administration, and others.

 9             We are exclusively dealing with Pale and Minister Stanisic's

10     order as well as the operative plan for such an operation.  We will not

11     go to Foca.  And apart from that, the operation was never conducted.  I

12     wish to remind the Trial Chamber that Witness Dragan Andan gave evidence

13     about that operation and evidence was introduced through him about who

14     was meant to participate, with what, and so on, and it may be interesting

15     and relevant for the Trial Chamber to hear evidence about that.

16             We now have a witness who read the order, and I believe that it

17     is very relevant to see it because it shows to what extent

18     Minister Stanisic persevered in the carrying out of such operations.

19             This is what I would like to show.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, the difficulty is -- I'd have to check

21     on the evidence of Mr. Andan.  I don't know what, if anything, he was

22     asked about this.  But the -- there are two difficulties.  First is we

23     don't know the facts which led this apparent operation to be planned.  We

24     have absolutely no idea because it's not part of the indictment, no

25     evidence has been led by the Prosecution nor the Defence about that

Page 21956

 1     municipality, who these people were, or what they did, or why any

 2     operation was being planned.  Secondly, if an operation was planned and

 3     never carried out, how is that going to assist the Trial Chamber in

 4     assessing anything?

 5             So, Your Honours, I maintain my objection to this evidence being

 6     led.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, if I understand you correctly,

 8     wouldn't the point that you wish to make be sufficiently made by merely

 9     mentioning Foca as a fact and then -- I shouldn't say as a fact, as an

10     event, and without leading any details about it at all, especially having

11     regard to what Ms. Korner has just reminded us, that, as you yourself

12     have said, the operation planned for Foca was never carried out?

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, in the view of the Chamber, Mr. Cvijetic, the

15     witness may be permitted to mention it but without any details whatever

16     because it's totally irrelevant for our purposes.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will focus on the

18     relevant part, the part from the indictment.  I have to ask the witness

19     who the operation was supposed to target and why.

20             We know that the indictment contains the crimes committed also by

21     the paramilitaries against whom that operation would have been carried

22     out.  This is how I intend to lead the witness.  I'm going to ask him

23     what was supposed to be done against those people.  This is the gist of

24     the indictment against Mr. Stanisic, i.e., what he did against certain

25     persons and their actions.

Page 21957

 1             As for the reasons why the operation wasn't carried out, I

 2     believe that Mr. Andan explored that quite sufficiently, and I do not

 3     intend to ask this witness about that.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, we're still checking the Andan

 5     transcript.  At the moment, we can find nothing except a very brief thing

 6     saying the operation wasn't carried out and Mr. Orasanin knows about it.

 7     But in any event, Your Honour, the problem is this:  There is a real

 8     divergence between the Prosecution and Defence on the reason why

 9     Mr. Stanisic launched action against some paramilitaries but not others,

10     and it's our contention, and that's something we'll be dealing with in

11     the evidence, that the only times that action was launched was when the

12     paramilitaries in question, such as the Yellow Wasps or the Mice, carried

13     out attacks on members of the Serb population.

14             So it's, therefore, important to know, and Your Honours have

15     heard no evidence about this one way or another, who these people were,

16     what they were alleged to have done.  And that's the difficulty in

17     allowing the Defence to develop this through a man who knows simply that

18     an operation was planned and abandoned.  If that's what he wants to say,

19     he can say it, but no more than that.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, no more than that.  And I would think that what

21     Mr. Cvijetic has just said can be accomplished within the compass of two

22     or three questions at the most.

23             Ms. Korner, what the Chamber -- what I continually bear in mind

24     is that whereas of course we are bound by the fundamental rule of

25     relevance as determined by the indictment, the reality is that we -- the

Page 21958

 1     indictment is an artificial delineation of events which occurred in a

 2     certain historical time, and there comes a point in which some overlap is

 3     inevitable, and this was apparent throughout the case for the

 4     Prosecution.  So provided Mr. Cvijetic confines himself to, as I said,

 5     for what he said, three questions should do it and we move on.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I agree.  I mean, it's simply the

 7     amount of detail that can be gone into that is my objection.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  So, Mr. Cvijetic, when the witness returns, you

 9     understand what you're permitted to do.

10             So the usher could escort the witness back to the stand, please.

11     Thanks.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, I'll have some very short questions for you and I

15     will invite you short answers.  The first one is this:  Did you read, did

16     you peruse, Mr. Mico Stanisic's order?  Just briefly.

17        A.   Yes, I believe that it was an original order.  What I mean is

18     that it was handwritten.

19        Q.   Who's the operation supposed to be carried out against?

20        A.   It was supposed to be carried out in the territory of Foca

21     against criminal and terrorist groups.  I still remember the term used,

22     criminal and terrorist groups of paramilitaries in the territory of Foca.

23        Q.   In that order, did Mr. Stanisic also approve the use of

24     fire-arms?

25        A.   There was a specific reference as far as I can remember -- or,

Page 21959

 1     rather, there was one chapter dealing with the application of laws, which

 2     is one of the most difficult areas, the use of fire-arms to eliminate and

 3     apprehend those groups.

 4        Q.   More specifically, was that part of that order?

 5        A.   Yes, as I'm saying.

 6        Q.   Just briefly.

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  One paragraph dealt with the use of police authorities

 8     highlighting the use of fire-arms.

 9        Q.   Tell me, please, in that order were the tasks of your

10     administration also specified and what did they consist of?  Again, very

11     briefly.

12        A.   Yes, there were also tasks pertaining to Crime Prevention

13     Administration, the police administration, as well as the administration

14     dealing with logistics.  The three administrations were highlighted.

15        Q.   I'm specifically interested in the tasks given to your

16     administration and you personally.

17        A.   The first was to draft an operative plan, to implement that

18     operative plan, to apply authorities and investigative procedures,

19     apprehension, taking people in custody, and filing criminal reports.

20        Q.   Did your tasks also specify the processing of the crimes that

21     were committed by the paramilitaries in that area?

22        A.   Yes, that was a general application.

23        Q.   And my last question about this topic: The order and the tasks in

24     that order, were they either the same or similar as the order for

25     Zvornik?

Page 21960

 1        A.   Yes, there were similarities.  The only thing that differed was

 2     the use of terminology, specifically "terrorist groups."  The term

 3     "terrorist groups" was used for the first time because in terms of their

 4     activities, in terms of the fact that they were renegade armed groups,

 5     that meant that they were terrorists and they should be treated as

 6     terrorists.

 7        Q.   In keeping with the previously-given promise, we will not go on.

 8     Before we open a document which has just been translated, and it will

 9     take a few minutes to upload it, I will have just one more question.

10     After all your visits and after all your inspections --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, on this Foca operation, one

12     follow-up question, please.

13             Mr. Orasanin, do you remember the date or the approximate date of

14     that order, of Mr. Stanisic's order?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that it was issued in

16     mid-August 1992.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, if you were asked to summarise all your visits

20     across the Republika Srpska and across all the public security stations,

21     would you be able to highlight the main problems in the work of crime

22     prevention services that would be common to all of them, not just

23     individual problems?  If you were asked to highlight the most pressing

24     problems that hinder the work of those services, can you just give me a

25     list of the most prominent problems?

Page 21961

 1        A.   The first problem was the lack of professional staff, as we have

 2     already seen.  So the main problem was personnel.  When we inspected the

 3     area, we realised that another big problem was the fact that those

 4     paramilitary groups were not under anybody's control.  They were not

 5     under the control of either the military or the police.  And they were

 6     the main cause of the problems in Foca, Zvornik, and elsewhere.

 7        Q.   And what about the local bodies of authority, were there any

 8     hindrances on their part?

 9        A.   As I've already told you, the local authorities or, rather, the

10     Crisis Staffs at the beginning effectively controlled even the police.

11     In some towns they even appointed commanders and chiefs of their police

12     stations and that was also a very big problem.  Probably the local

13     authorities were in cahoots with some of those local renegade groups.

14     For example, in Brcko, I believe that we were chased away by their

15     snipers.  And that was one of the key problems.  The issue was how to

16     establish the work of the Ministry of the Interior or, rather, how to

17     establish control over those paramilitary groups in Foca and Zvornik

18     where the police stations were not in control of them.

19        Q.   And now I will ask you about the year 1992.  Do you perhaps know

20     or could you be able to assess the percentage of detected and resolved

21     crimes in the territory of the Republika Srpska?  You don't have to be

22     very precise but maybe you can give us an approximation.  Did your

23     service carry out any analysis in that sense?  This a very concrete

24     question.

25             MS. KORNER:  Let's start with that one, shall we, the basis for

Page 21962

 1     which he can give any such opinion.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So, you've heard Ms. Korner.  Start with last things first.  Did

 4     your service carry out an analysis of the crimes that were detected and

 5     resolved in 1992?

 6        A.   Yes.  This is within the purview of our analysis service and the

 7     Crime Prevention Administration.  All the reports that arrived at our

 8     desk were analysed.  I personally was not involved in that.  In any case,

 9     the analysis serves to monitor the work of the security services centres

10     and public security stations.  I know that the percentage was very high

11     in our view, especially in the Security Services Centres of Banja Luka

12     and Doboj.  The total percentage was over 45, up to 50 per cent of the

13     crimes that were resolved.  In peacetime, I know that a percentage of

14     over 40 to 50 per cent is considered a good performance.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have received the

17     translation of the document.  I would suggest that we take a short break

18     which will allow us to upload it.  And after I show the document to the

19     witness, I will have a few questions and that will be the end of my

20     examination.  I will have no other questions for the witness.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  So we would -- would the usual

22     20-minute break, or should I add an additional five minutes or so?

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I believe that a half an hour that

24     we normally take should suffice.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So we will return at the usual time of 12.25.

Page 21963

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

 4             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Your Honour, may I address you briefly before

 5     the witness comes in?

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

 7             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  Yes, before the break there was a discussion

 8     about the evidence on Foca and the witness Andan, and I understand

 9     Ms. Korner hadn't had time to check the transcript, but can I just for

10     the record state that on the 30th of May in relation to Exhibit 1D557,

11     that was Andan's personal diary, he was questioned about the Foca

12     operation at pages 21503, -504.  That was on direct.  Again on direct, in

13     relation to Exhibit 1D556 -- sorry, 1D566, that's a letter from

14     Prime Minister Djeric, he was questioned about Foca at pages 21545, -547.

15     Finally, on direct, Exhibit -- or not exhibit, it's 65 ter 179D1, an

16     Official Note, and there he's questioned at 21552, -555.  And finally, on

17     cross-examination by the Prosecutor on the 1st of June, Andan was

18     questioned about Foca at pages 21697 to -706.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.  And of course while

20     Ms. Korner had no personal recollection of this, the Chamber, certainly

21     one of the members, did recall that the witness Andan spoke specifically

22     to the matter of Foca.  Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

Page 21964

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, we will continue where we broke off, but do repeat

 3     once more, did you have an opportunity to see it while you were working

 4     there?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I suppose that in the mean time you were able to read it.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Here is my question:  Does this request, which is reiterated,

 9     refer to the -- to entering information in the forms about war crimes?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Let us look at paragraph 3, that the nationality of perpetrators

12     or victims need not be entered.  Is that in line with what we've

13     explained?

14        A.   Yes.  The ethnicity was not an issue.  It was the same for

15     everybody.

16        Q.   There's another statement in the introductory part.  Take a look

17     at the date of the minister's first dispatch.

18        A.   Yes, that's a reference to previous dispatches, dated 16 May and

19     19 July.  Those were earlier dispatches about the submission of the forms

20     mentioned here, RZ and RZ1.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness is

22     obviously acquainted with this document and he acted pursuant to the

23     orders of the minister, he even took part in the drafting of the forms, I

24     seek to tender this document into evidence.

25             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] No objection.

Page 21965

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D572, Your Honours.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, you don't know but I still owe something to the

 5     Prosecutor, namely whether or not you gave a document to the Defence, so

 6     that is made clear.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see 65 ter 143D1.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] 36.  Let us wait for the

10     technician to finish.

11        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, you said at the beginning that you were transferred

12     from the crime prevention unit to the uniformed police, more

13     specifically, the border police; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you give us this document that we see here?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Please tell us briefly why you considered it important for us to

18     receive this document.  In one sentence, please.

19        A.   I gave you this document because in the border department there

20     were also some problems with the jurisdiction of the MUP and the military

21     respectively or, more specifically, the military police.  The military

22     police assumed the jurisdiction over some things that were -- that should

23     properly have been in our jurisdiction, and there was a problem.  The MUP

24     was unable to carry out the assignments that it was legally bound to do.

25     We can see --

Page 21966

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the latter part

 2     of his answer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are offices of the border

 4     police whose superior I was.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Please repeat the end of your previous answer.  It was about the

 7     overlapping jurisdiction.

 8        A.   This document is about the interference of military bodies, that

 9     is, the military police, in the work of the border police of the MUP, and

10     this report was filed by officers at the border crossing of Zvornik whose

11     superior I was.

12        Q.   And do you know this document?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since the witness is

15     here and he brought this document, I will tender it into evidence.

16             MS. KORNER:  Well, if Your Honours think a document about the

17     border patrol on the 25th of January of 1993 is relevant, I'll leave it

18     up to Your Honours.  We would say it's not relevant to anything.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, relevance?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Then I will amend my question to

21     the witness.

22        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, the date here is indeed 25 January 1993, so let me

23     ask you if these problems with the clash of jurisdictions go back earlier

24     than this?

25        A.   Yes, certainly.  This was from January when the border police

Page 21967

 1     became operational, but in November and December of 1992 it was the same,

 2     only worse.  I found this report and I brought it here as an example, but

 3     there were more drastic cases back in August and September.  We had to

 4     work in accordance with laws and regulations because there was an embargo

 5     imposed in Serbia and there were UN observers there, and we insisted that

 6     everything should be in line with the regulations, that the military

 7     police do their job, and the MUP, their job.

 8        Q.   [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  To whom was this report sent?

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You heard the question, witness.

12        A.   The report was sent to the MUP, that is, to the chief of the

13     border department of the MUP of the RS, to have the ministry solve the

14     problem with the military.  It's about jurisdiction.  The minister should

15     have seen to it.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, insofar as the witness in your -- in

18     the last exchange, that is, the one before the -- to whom the report was

19     sent, he has explained, he has given viva voce testimony about events

20     prior to January of 1993, so that emphasizes the irrelevance of this

21     particular report.  What is -- what may be of assistance is the latter

22     part of his testimony about similar events having occurred in 1992, so

23     this report is of no assistance.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I appreciate the

25     position of the Trial Chamber, and I withdraw my motion to tender this

Page 21968

 1     document.  Now at least we know the provenance of the document, and I

 2     hereby conclude my examination-in-chief.

 3             Thank you, Mr. Orasanin.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Krgovic, I haven't forgotten the answer that you gave to us

 6     yesterday, but for the record at this point I just wish you to confirm

 7     that you decline cross-examination of this witness.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we don't have questions for this

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Ms. Korner.

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, when I spoke to Mr. Cvijetic this

13     morning, he assured me he'd take the rest of the day and tomorrow, or

14     part of it, so -- but I am actually in a position to start.

15             I should say, Your Honours, just so Your Honours know, I will

16     complete my cross-examination tomorrow and we'll be ready for the next

17     witness to start on Thursday.  I told Mr. Zecevic last week that I

18     wouldn't be very long, so ...

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Orasanin, let's deal with document, shall we.  You

21     produced for the Defence these two documents which you told the Court

22     that you didn't have at the time you were interviewed by the

23     Office of the Prosecutor; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And before you were seen in 2004, I believe it was, by an

Page 21969

 1     investigator from -- sorry, 2005, by an investigator, he presumably asked

 2     you when you were contacted to bring with you any documents you had that

 3     might assist; is that right?

 4        A.   No, he didn't ask me to bring any documents.  We only agreed

 5     about the time of our interview in Sarajevo.  That was in our telephone

 6     conversation.  In any case, I didn't have those documents at the time.

 7     Actually, I knew that those documents existed somewhere, but they were

 8     not accessible to me in 2004.  That is why my 2004 statement doesn't

 9     involve those documents which in my mind are authentic and valid.  I

10     found those documents only recently.

11        Q.   Right.  I'll come on to that.  Where did you find those documents

12     now some - what's the date? - 2011, nearly -- well, 18 years or

13     thereabouts after the event?  Where did you get the documents?

14        A.   I found the document in the house in the village where my mother

15     lived.  Already then in 2004 I knew that some papers, some notes, were

16     lying around somewhere.  They were in that house, but I only found them

17     later.  There are a lot of papers hanging around there.  It is our family

18     house and some of those papers belong to my brothers.

19             That document was produced in 1992.  It's an authentic document.

20        Q.   Yes.  Now, Mr. Orasanin, I'm going to emphasise:  If you answer

21     the questions shortly, and they're simple questions, you will be out of

22     here definitely by tomorrow.  If you give me long answers like that,

23     you'll be here until the next day.  Now, all that required you to say was

24     that you found it at your parents' or your brother's house.

25             That document, one of them at least, in fact both of them, are

Page 21970

 1     confidential MUP documents, aren't they?

 2        A.   Both are copies.  There were three copies of the same document,

 3     and that document was the typist's copy.

 4        Q.   Well, it purports -- let's go back -- I'm not interested in the

 5     last one.  It purports to bear your signature, that's what you told the

 6     Court.  I've forgotten what number it is.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I apologise, let's

 8     clarify one matter.  What is the basis for Ms. Korner's conclusion that

 9     the document is confidential?  She doesn't -- she hasn't laid sufficient

10     a ground to put this question to the witness.  How does she know that the

11     document is confidential?

12             MS. KORNER:  Well, actually, I rather thought it was self-evident

13     that a report on an inspection to the minister would not be something

14     that was for publication.  However, I will ask that.

15        Q.   The reports that you did after inspections, those were for the

16     eyes of the minister, were they not?

17        A.   We were duty-bound to submit that to our boss, the assistant

18     minister, or the head of the Department for Crime Prevention.  As for the

19     rest of the procedure, it was our immediate superior who was in charge of

20     that.  And this document is not confidential, and I have kept this copy.

21     The other two copies were sent for further proceedings.  They were sent

22     into the normal procedure.

23        Q.   Are you telling the Court, Mr. Orasanin, that when you prepared

24     these or signed these reports about inspections or any other documents,

25     that they -- you were entitled to give them, for example, to the press?

Page 21971

 1        A.   There was a special procedure in place for any contacts with the

 2     media, and one had to have authority in order to provide information to

 3     the media.

 4        Q.   All right.  Because you couldn't just give internal MUP documents

 5     to anybody, could you?

 6        A.   Well, this document never went to anybody outside of the MUP.

 7        Q.   Right.  But are you telling the Court that you were entitled to

 8     take home and keep for yourself copies of documents that you had given to

 9     the minister or the assistant minister, whoever it might have been?

10        A.   Well, every employee could keep any copies of any documents to

11     remind them what they did, and that's why I kept this document.  But this

12     is either a third or even a fourth copy, and I did not violate any rules.

13     This is not a confidential document.  There's no degree of

14     confidentiality attached to it.

15        Q.   By confidential, I mean it's internal MUP document.  You're not

16     allowed to hand it to anybody outside the MUP, are you?

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

18     check where this leads to.  The witness has already answered that this

19     document was not intended for anybody's eyes.  He just kept it for

20     himself because he was one of its authors.  I don't know how far

21     Ms. Korner is going to go with this line of questioning and what else can

22     be achieved with this line of questioning in addition to what this man

23     has already told us about the document.

24             MS. KORNER:  It was quite wrong for Mr. Cvijetic to try and give

25     the witness the answer that he wants.  Now --

Page 21972

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, I, too, was wondering how much farther

 2     you're going with this, and I'm wondering whether, to what extent, the

 3     short answer to your question is that Bosnia has no equivalent of what we

 4     would know as the Official Secrets Act.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I don't think that's correct, in fact.

 6     And we've had other evidence about it but I am pursuing this for a reason

 7     that you will, I hope, see in a minute.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Very well.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Can we have the document up on the screen, please.

10     I think it's 1D064320, or something like that, at tab 29.  Oh, 33D1.

11     Sorry.  I don't know what 1D064320 is then.

12             Sorry, can we have the third page in English and the third page

13     in B/C/S.

14        Q.   Is that your signature?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Why did you sign it if it's just a copy that you kept for your

17     own purposes?

18        A.   Because this is my copy.  I signed it because it's mine.  The

19     first and the second copies were signed by Nikola Milanovic, myself, and

20     Ostoja Minic.  I can confirm this.

21        Q.   Yes, all three of you signed the copy that went up to the

22     assistant minister.

23        A.   Yes, I'm sure of that.

24        Q.   Right.  Now, I just want to know why - this was simply your own

25     personal copy kept at home - you signed it.

Page 21973

 1        A.   This is my signature.  There is my name there.  It just signifies

 2     that this copy is mine, and I'm sure that each of the other two has kept

 3     their respective copies in their archives.

 4        Q.   And what else have you got at home?  I mean, firstly, I'm sorry,

 5     before we get on to that, what else did you give to the Defence?  What

 6     other documents?

 7        A.   Well, I've provided this one, the one that we have just commented

 8     upon.  It's at tab 36.

 9        Q.   I want to know, outside what's in this binder, how many other

10     documents did you give the Defence?  Outside what is in here, how many

11     other documents, when you first saw them, whoever you first saw, how many

12     documents did you give them?

13             MS. KORNER:  No.  He has to answer the question, not you,

14     Mr. Cvijetic.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, I was just going to say that

16     the witness has already answered.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first and the second report,

18     tab 29, and --

19             MS. KORNER:

20        Q.   I'll repeat the question.  Outside those two documents that are

21     in this binder, what other documents did you give the Defence?

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I have to object.  You should ask

23     the witness whether he gave anything.  Ms. Korner is leading the witness

24     and suggests that he indeed has given other documents.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, there is nothing wrong with the

Page 21974

 1     question.  Let the witness answer it.  Please take your seat.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Orasanin, for the third time, don't look at Mr. Cvijetic

 4     for help or assistance, how many documents outside these two did you give

 5     the Defence?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the answer.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   You sure?

10        A.   Two documents.  The first report and the second report dated the

11     1st of January, 1993.

12        Q.   And do you have other documents in your home or your parents'

13     home which relate to the events in 1992?

14        A.   No, I don't.  Possibly I have some handwritten notes, for

15     example, an operative plan related to a visit to Foca.  I had worked on

16     that personally, but I'm not sure.

17        Q.   May I ask why you kept that particular report or those two

18     particular reports on those two instances and nothing else?  What was so

19     particularly important about your inspection on Visegrad, and other

20     places?

21        A.   Nothing special, but that was on the 14th of September.  That was

22     my last visit, when I was already in the middle of the preparations for

23     transfer, I was about to be transferred into the border police

24     department, so those were the last events that I participated in before I

25     was transferred.

Page 21975

 1        Q.   As an inspector you were obliged to keep a notebook, weren't you?

 2        A.   No, that was not an obligation.  However, when we went on our

 3     visit, one would always take notes which were then served for our joint

 4     report, because all of our reports were joint reports, the one from

 5     Doboj, another one from Foca and Cajnice.  Those were our joint reports

 6     signed by the three of us because all the three of us had been there.

 7        Q.   Right.  You did a number of inspections with Mr. Ostoja Minic,

 8     didn't you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did he carry a notebook with him on those inspections?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, he did.  It was either him or Milanovic

12     actually.

13        Q.   If he carried one, how come you didn't carry one?

14        A.   Because we did the same things.  When we were there, we were

15     there all three of us at any of the meetings.

16        Q.   Yes, but you did some inspections without Mr. Minic.  On those

17     occasions did you get somebody else to keep notes of what was said?

18        A.   In all of those cases, there was myself, Milanovic, and Ostoja.

19     We made a team.  And we worked together in Banja Luka, Doboj, Brcko,

20     Foca.

21        Q.   You see --

22        A.   As well as Visegrad.  Well, in --

23        Q.   Where is the report that you did on the Doboj visit on the

24     15th of August, 1992?

25        A.   I'm sure it exists.  This is an earlier report, that's why I

Page 21976

 1     don't have it.  And this report reflects my thoughts before my transfer.

 2     There had already been discussions about me being transferred to another

 3     service, and I'm sure that it was submitted to the Crime Prevention

 4     Administration, this report from Doboj, and as far as I can remember it

 5     is similar to this one.  The method of work was the same.  And if

 6     somebody were to produce that report, you would see that the procedure

 7     described in that report is similar to this one, and that procedure

 8     relied on the instruction on how to do inspection visits.

 9        Q.   Well, we'll come to that in a minute.  All right, so you have no

10     idea where that report for the 15th of August visit might be?

11        A.   It must be with the Crime Prevention Administration of the

12     Republika Srpska MUP.

13        Q.   All right.  And in your getting hold of documents, it didn't

14     occur to you to go and try and find that one?

15        A.   This was just a coincidence.  It was September on the eve of my

16     transfer.  I kept this one for that reason.  But this is a copy bearing

17     my signature.  The first and the second copies were signed by the three

18     of us.  That was part of a regular procedure.  There's nothing unusual

19     about that.

20        Q.   I'm not going to pursue that, although, Mr. Orasanin, it's

21     somewhat curious.  Some people might think that you signed simply a copy

22     that you're keeping yourself.  However, let's go back to the beginning,

23     shall we.

24             You told the Court that you had been at the Novo Sarajevo

25     Police Station as the assistant commander until such time as the conflict

Page 21977

 1     started at the beginning of April; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Isn't it right that you hadn't actually been working since

 4     February of 1992, having declared yourself to be on sick leave from that

 5     time?

 6        A.   Yes, let me explain.  I was the chief of the Crime Prevention

 7     Department and as of the end of February I was on a sick leave.  The day

 8     before yesterday I explained that I did come to work every other day and

 9     I did because of my obligations and because of the people who were

10     working there.  They came from different ethnic backgrounds and I

11     couldn't leave them because we dealt with custody cases every day.  That

12     police station had 125 uniformed police officers, 15 inspectors.  There

13     was the commander of the police station who was in charge of the

14     uniformed police.  And at that time I was in charge of signing custody

15     decisions.  I was the only person authorised to do that.

16             I went on a sick leave for some reasons.  I can explain, but it

17     will take me two or three minutes to explain why I went on a six leave.

18     The reason was lack of professionalism, the service had been joined by

19     some new people who were in cahoots with criminals, and we all felt the

20     same, not just myself but also the Croatian and Bosniak inspectors.  But

21     I couldn't leave them.  I came back to work every day in order to deal

22     with the custody cases and also when there were some events taking place,

23     for example, cutting Sarajevo into different parts.  And I can even tell

24     you the reason why I went on a sick leave if you want me to do so.

25        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, in a moment you can if you want to, but the point

Page 21978

 1     that I'm making is you led the Court to believe in your evidence-in-chief

 2     that you had been working full time at this Novo Sarajevo Police Station

 3     before the events of early April, and that is not correct, is it?  You

 4     did not tell the Court anything about being on sick leave nor about you

 5     being -- coming every other day into the police station.

 6        A.   You can find it in my first statement in the audio recording.

 7     I've never been in this courtroom before, but I thought that there was no

 8     need for me to go over the same things that I already said in 1994.  It

 9     is true and correct that I was on sick leave.  I went on a sick leave

10     because of a commission, and it's a special story.

11             There was a commission at the level of the Ministry of the

12     Interior; it was a governmental commission in charge of investigating a

13     trail of some money and burning of some money and things like that.  I

14     wanted to avoid that because I thought it was a way to frame people up.

15     I didn't want to be a member of that commission.  That's why I went on

16     sick leave.  However, I continued working.  I continued co-operating with

17     the operatives who were there.  I had to be there.  Those operatives,

18     they were of different ethnic backgrounds.  Nobody could remand a person

19     in custody if a decision to that effect was not being signed.  We had

20     custody cases every day.  For example, the killing Petrovic, Pero.  And

21     that proves how hard people worked.

22             A criminal was apprehended who had broken into several vehicles,

23     and that person Pero Petrovic and his Bosniak

24     neighbourhood [as interpreted] brought them in, and that Bosniak

25     neighbourhood [as interpreted] was a policeman, and that's why he asked

Page 21979

 1     him to help him to get the person to the police station.  My operative

 2     who was on duty -- I was the one who actually assigned people on duty.

 3     That inspector was on duty, and when that event had taken place, he

 4     informed me by telephone about a crime that had taken place where the

 5     conditions were in place for remanding him in custody, and then I had to

 6     come, I had to be there, I had to be present.  That's why I had to be

 7     present, because I was the only one who had the authority to sign

 8     decisions on remanding people in custody.

 9             I would come to work every other day.  For example, there were

10     individuals whom we would remand in custody two or three times in one

11     month.  For example, we would remand them in custody, then we would refer

12     him to the court, and then the court would release him.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Line 63 -- page 63, line 8, the

14     year recorded is 1994.  Maybe Ms. Korner could come back to that.  Let's

15     clarify the period in question.  It must be a typo.  I'm sorry, I think

16     that the year has been wrongly recorded.

17             MS. KORNER:  I have no doubt at all it was 1992 that he's talking

18     about.

19        Q.   Now, look, Mr. Orasanin, as I said to you before, I'm asking

20     fairly simple questions.  If you disagree with my suggestion that you

21     were on sick leave and therefore were not working at the police station

22     during this period, all you have to say is "you're wrong," instead of

23     this long, long explanation.  Now, do you understand?

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Korner, my intervention was

25     only with regard to the year when he was interviewed by the OTP.  It says

Page 21980

 1     that it was in 1994, so I kindly asked you to correct that, the time of

 2     the interview.

 3             MS. KORNER:  I have already.  I've told -- I've said -- given

 4     that it's 2005 in fact.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Orasanin, you told -- as you say, you told the

 6     investigator in 2005, and I will read out what you actually said to him

 7     at page 4 of the transcript:

 8             "Starting from the beginning of February, I was on sick leave,

 9     and when the war erupted I was still on sick leave."

10             And my suggestion to you, Mr. Orasanin, is that having been on

11     sick leave, you're in no position to give the Court any description of

12     the events which led up to the beginning of the conflict, and that's

13     right, isn't it?

14        A.   I beg to disagree.  Although I was on sick leave, I still

15     performed my duties.  I worked.  I was present.  I was there.  So I know

16     about all those events.  When the police station was attacked, the day

17     before I had left my car there and then I left.  I worked.  I performed

18     all of my duties.

19        Q.   Let's deal with this attack on the police station in

20     Novo Sarajevo.  It's right, isn't it, that a gang of masked men that

21     evening attacked the police station?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And nobody knows whether those men were Serbs or non-Serbs,

24     because they were masked.

25        A.   May I answer?

Page 21981

 1        Q.   You may.  Sorry, I should have said it's a question.

 2        A.   That group had arrived from the area of Stari Grad, old town.

 3     They had arrived into vans.  They changed their clothes in the vicinity

 4     of the outpatient's clinic.  They attacked the police station.  They

 5     killed some people, and they kidnapped a duty officer.

 6        Q.   Right.  Have a look, please, at a report of this incident in

 7     Oslobodjenje.

 8             MS. KORNER:  It's 201 -- 65 ter 20157.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please?

10             MS. KORNER:  Tab 4, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  In the OTP binder?

12             MS. KORNER:  In the OTP binder, yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I've been

15     informed that this document has never been disclosed to the Defence.

16             MS. KORNER:  It doesn't have to be disclosed because it's a

17     public newspaper, open source, and in any event it would never have

18     become relevant had not the Defence decided to go down the road of the

19     attack on Novo Sarajevo Police Station, which I objected to originally.

20             If there's no further objection, I'm going to ask the witness

21     about it.

22        Q.   Did you read this account at the time?  It's a report of -- in

23     the newspaper on the -- it's the 8th of April.  Yes, 8th of April.

24        A.   I cannot remember now.

25        Q.   All right.  And if we come to the relevant part, which is on

Page 21982

 1     page 2 in English, attack on the SJB Novo Sarajevo:

 2             "A dramatic night followed between Saturday and Sunday after the

 3     split of the special task force," pausing there for a moment.

 4             Were you aware of the split in the Special Police that had taken

 5     place?

 6        A.   There was talk about it, that the Special Police had split.

 7        Q.   "50 masked men conducted an attack on the public security

 8     station, and on that occasion policeman Pero Petrovic was killed.  And

 9     the station was robbed and destroyed."

10             Is that correct?

11        A.   Correct.  But I don't know which number of members is correct,

12     30 or 50 or any other number.  I don't think that this information is not

13     correct.  I know that they had come in two vans from Stari Grad and that

14     they were headed by a certain Puska and that they were members of the

15     Green Berets.

16        Q.   Well, this -- oh, yes, quite.  This is what the Serbian MUP --

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I think that the

18     full name of the ring leader be recorded.  This witness mentioned it but

19     it wasn't recorded.

20             MS. KORNER:

21        Q.   I didn't hear it, but what's the full name of this certain Puska?

22        A.   Zakid or Zahir, I'm not sure.  This is our intelligence, that he

23     brought them, but whether he ...

24        Q.   As the report goes on to say:

25             "The Serbian MUP release an announcement.  Basic message - Putsch

Page 21983

 1     of Green Berets members of the Muslim part of the MUP state in an

 2     announcement that they occupy the building of the ministry and the base

 3     of the special task forces Green Berets are accused of attacking the

 4     public security station in Novo Sarajevo."

 5             And that's the fact, isn't it, that a statement was actually put

 6     out by Mico Stanisic to the effect that this attack had been carried out

 7     by what were described as Green Berets?  That's right, isn't it,

 8     Mr. Orasanin?

 9        A.   I spoke about this event with the man who was kidnapped,

10     Lazar Bojanic, immediately after the event.  And I said two days ago,

11     concerning the police station and their operations during the absence of

12     the commander, he takes responsibility.  And he was even an experienced

13     police officer.  They disarmed him when they entered the police station,

14     they took him to the basement, they lined up him and Pero Petrovic, since

15     Pero had processed this person.  They broke into the storage, and one of

16     these men pointed a pistol at him.  They -- actually, he leaned the

17     pistol against his back.  And they made him turn around and face the

18     wall.  And the -- he fired the pistol into the heart of Pero Petrovic.

19     He was taken to the Elektrodistribucija where --

20        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, stop, please.  I'm not asking you for a full

21     description of what you say happened.  I'm merely dealing with the people

22     involved.  These people were masked people, that's correct, isn't it?

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness answered

24     but it wasn't recorded.  If this is correct, page 68, line 4:  "He was

25     taken to the Elektrodistribucija," and then the witness said who was

Page 21984

 1     located there but it wasn't recorded.

 2             Why not let the witness say what was located there?  Because

 3     that's the question [as interpreted] to Ms. Korner's question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the headquarters of the

 5     Green Berets, a group was there even before this event.

 6             MS. KORNER:

 7        Q.   Two days after -- I'm sorry, two days after this event, it's

 8     right, isn't it, that the Serbs did attack, and there's no dispute about

 9     this, the station and seized it?

10        A.   I don't understand the question.  That the Serbs attacked the --

11        Q.   On the -- by the 6th of April, the Bosnian Serb MUP was in

12     possession of Novo Sarajevo Police Station, wasn't it?

13        A.   On the 6th of April?  No.

14        Q.   Do you know who Mr. Tintor is, please, Mr. Orasanin?

15     Jovan Tintor.

16        A.   I've heard of him, but he has nothing to do with Novo Sarajevo.

17     He had contacts in the Vogosca municipality.  This is probably a

18     misunderstanding.

19        Q.   No, no, no, it's not a misunderstanding.  You know who he is.  He

20     was the president -- he was a member of the SDS and president of the

21     Crisis Staff in Vogosca, wasn't he?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you also know a Mr. Danilo Veselinovic?

24     V-e-s-e-l-i-n-o-v-i-c.

25        A.   Yes, I know that he worked there.  I don't know him well.

Page 21985

 1        Q.   Well, if necessary we can play you this intercept, but I'm going

 2     to ask you to look at the transcript, please.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Which is at 10391.08, which is -- oh, sorry, it's

 4     Exhibit P1500.08 and tab 2.  And can we look, please, in English at

 5     page 3, and in B/C/S I think it's page 2.  Yes, bottom of page 2.

 6        Q.   Mr. Tintor is saying to Mr. Veselinovic:

 7             "Now we just need to take what is with the police station

 8     Novo Sarajevo."

 9             "Oh, that is already seized."

10             "Are you kidding me."

11             MS. KORNER:  And then over the page in English, and B/C/S as

12     well, I think.

13        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic says "aha."

14             "Has it been seized really?" says Mr. Tintor.  And he says, this

15     part:

16             "I mean, they've taken everything up to here, up to this one."

17             Right.  Now, do you accept it would appear from that,

18     Mr. Orasanin, that two days after this incident, Novo Sarajevo, the SJB,

19     was in the hands of the Bosnian Serb MUP?

20        A.   No, that is not correct.

21        Q.   How do you know that?

22        A.   Because people didn't work there.  The Serbs withdrew after the

23     attack, and it stayed in the hands of the Bosniaks.  I never entered the

24     office.

25        Q.   No, you didn't because you went off again.  You went off to the

Page 21986

 1     country somewhere, didn't you, and stayed there until you decided to join

 2     the Bosnian MUP in April or May, the beginning of May?

 3        A.   But the police station was not controlled by the Serbs.

 4     Zeljko Rakic was there who was supposed to conduct an on-site

 5     investigation after the murder, and they were unable to do so.

 6        Q.   Well, so --

 7        A.   I know that from him.  I have a report.

 8        Q.   So Mr. Veselinovic has got it all wrong, has he?

 9        A.   This is 1.000 per cent wrong.  This is the first time I see it

10     and hear it.  This is a disinformation.

11        Q.   Between two Serbs talking to each other on the telephone?  Two

12     members of the -- high members of the SDS?

13        A.   I cannot comment their conversation.  I took no interest in them.

14        Q.   Right.  Because you told the investigators that -- and indeed I

15     think you told the Court, you left Sarajevo between the 3rd and

16     4th of April, "the night when the attack occurred at our police station

17     in Sarajevo," and you went to your country -- you went to a village "with

18     my family and stayed there for about three or four weeks."  That's what

19     you told the investigator in 2005.  Is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So you wouldn't have known at all what, if anything, had happened

22     in the SJB in Novo Sarajevo, would you?

23        A.   But I was in charge of these things and the inspector to conduct

24     an on-site investigator had the task to do that.  And I said that this

25     person was -- if the person had been detained, we would have been

Page 21987

 1     duty-bound to process it and forward the file to the prosecutor's office.

 2     That's what I know.  I was active.  I did go to the countryside, but upon

 3     my return I spoke to Zeljko and the others and I'm familiar with the

 4     facts.

 5        Q.   How could you have been active if you were living in the country

 6     out of any sort of communication with your police station?

 7        A.   I wasn't active during that period, nor were they, because the

 8     police station had been taken and disarmed and they didn't work either.

 9     Nobody was active during that period.  But when I arrived, I spoke to

10     Inspector Rakic and I learned about all these facts and events.

11        Q.   Yes, so you say.  So before that you were on sick leave, after

12     the incident you left, and you didn't do anything until May of 1992; is

13     that right?

14        A.   I said before I went on sick leave I was permanently present at

15     the police station with the commander.  Alija Kazic was the commander,

16     and we had coffee every morning, and everybody else, until this event.

17        Q.   In that case, just as a matter of interest, how come your

18     superiors allowed you to stay on sick leave if you were actually there

19     the whole time?

20        A.   Well, I explained, because I was the only one authorised to sign

21     detention cases --

22        Q.   I'm not asking you that.  I'm asking you how come your superiors

23     at that stage, and this is before April 1992, allowed you allegedly to be

24     on sick leave, when in actual fact you were turning up every day?

25        A.   Because they couldn't do it otherwise.  The authorisation was

Page 21988

 1     linked to my name, and a change would have required a special procedure.

 2        Q.   How did you come to work for Mr. Planojevic?  You haven't

 3     explained that.  Who asked you to come and work?

 4        A.   No.  At some time in early May when I arrive at Pale, I went to

 5     the MUP.  And Dobro Planojevic was appointed to establish a Crime

 6     Prevention Administration.  That was after the 4th of April, 1992, at the

 7     beginning of the war.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, I --

 9        A.   If we are referring to the period before the war.

10        Q.   I'm asking how you came to potter along to Pale in the middle of

11     a conflict, according to you, and ended up working for Planojevic.  Did

12     somebody ask you to come there?  Were you appointed to come there?  What?

13        A.   No, no, no.  I stated all that in my first statement, but I see

14     that my first statement isn't here.  I explained that.  And I explained

15     to the investigators, too.  There were only two options: either to join

16     the army, that was a legal obligation, or join the MUP.  And since I'm a

17     professional police officer, that's the only thing I can do, I decided to

18     go there, and that's logical.  But there was no third option.

19             And I heard that Minister Stanisic was there and that he was

20     trying to set up an organisational structure, because it was all built

21     from scratch.  But it was logical for me to be here, because there was no

22     other option.  Or possibly I could have returned to the place where Pero

23     was killed and where my apartment was looted and searched.  And it was

24     immediately after the attack on the police station, my apartment was

25     searched twice.  Perhaps I should have returned there, but I opted for

Page 21989

 1     the other way.

 2        Q.   And, of course, you might have had to go and actually get

 3     involved in combat if you had gone to the military, mightn't you,

 4     Mr. Orasanin?

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, we must leave it there for the day.

 6             MS. KORNER:  I think so, yes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can I ask one thing.  It can be dealt with

 8     tomorrow, but, Ms. Korner, at page 67, starting line 19, it's about the

 9     attack on the Novo Sarajevo Police Station.  You asked a question,

10     particularly the part of it starting at page 21.  The witness started

11     giving an account of the event itself but didn't answer the question.

12     Could you put that question again to him and, if possible, get a brief

13     answer from him.  But tomorrow will be fine.  Thank you.

14             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honour, I will.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

16             MR. O'SULLIVAN:  With your indulgence, Mr. Zecevic has asked me

17     to convey a request to the Chamber.  He's not here, as you can see.  He

18     is arriving Thursday morning.  He would like to address the Chamber on

19     Thursday concerning scheduling matters for the remainder of our Defence

20     case and procedural matters which are connected to the scheduling.  So he

21     would like the opportunity to address you on the Thursday afternoon.

22     Even if we finish with this witness tomorrow, he would like to address

23     you on Thursday.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And while you're on your feet, I was

25     about to ask of the Stanisic team whether, having regard to Ms. Korner's

Page 21990

 1     indication that she would be completed by tomorrow, whether you have a

 2     witness available for Thursday and Friday, bearing in mind that Monday is

 3     a holiday, but you can answer that question tomorrow.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, can I say, as I say, I did make

 5     it clear to Mr. Zecevic that this witness would be finished fairly

 6     quickly.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  We take the adjournment to tomorrow.  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day

11                           of June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.