Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22149

 1                           Friday, 10 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 6             This is Case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 7     Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone.

10             May we have the appearances today, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

12     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

14             For Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Tatjana Savic, and

15     Eugene O'Sullivan.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

17             Dragan Krgovic and Aleksandar Aleksic for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             While the witness is on his way in, I understand that there are

20     no preliminary matters, but the Chamber wishes to confirm - and this, we

21     think, would have already been communicated to Mr. Cvijetic - that we

22     must take the break at 10.00 because the three of us are involved in a

23     meeting.  At that time we will reconvene at 10.30 and rise for the day at

24     11.15, so that if, heaven forbid, the witness, Mr. Cvijetic, is not

25     finished at that time, then the rest of his -- the remainder of his

Page 22150

 1     cross-examination will have to abide the return next week.

 2             MS. KORNER:  I think you meant re-examination, Your Honour.  I

 3     really have finished cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Ms. Korner.  Yes, re-examination.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           WITNESS:  MILOMIR ORASANIN [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Orasanin, good morning to you.

 9             Before I invite Mr. Cvijetic to begin his re-examination, I give

10     you the usual reminder about your solemn declaration.

11             Yes, Mr. Cvijetic.

12             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

13     the Usher to give our binder to the witness, in case we need it.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Orasanin.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, during cross-examination by Ms. Korner regarding

18     information in the Ilijas and Vogosca SJBs, and that's P989 for your

19     reference, in this report you said that communications were down - that's

20     on the last page of this report - and that's communications between the

21     Vogosca and Ilijas SJBs, even though they were quite close,

22     geographically.  Ms. Korner showed you a document that was a bulletin of

23     daily events, and it was marked as Exhibit P1437.

24             I would like to have this exhibit on the screens for a moment,

25     please.

Page 22151

 1             In paragraph 2, you were told that there is a report of events

 2     from Vogosca municipality and from the front in Ilijas, and this contests

 3     your claim that communications were down.  Mr. Milanovic -- Orasanin,

 4     could this information in this bulletin have arrived from the

 5     Yugoslav People's Army as well?  Please look at paragraph 1; which

 6     says -- please look at paragraph 1.  So could this information have

 7     arrived from these organs?  Only yes or no, because we don't have a lot

 8     of time.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   My second question regarding this information:  Could it have

11     arrived personally?  Could it have been given verbally by somebody who

12     participated in combat, just as you once went and reported verbally?

13        A.   Yes, I wanted to comment on it.

14        Q.   You can't comment on it.  Just tell me yes or no.

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. KORNER:  I'll say this once just:  Re-examination doesn't

17     mean you can ask leading questions.  The proper way of asking the

18     question, if you wanted to, is, Are you aware of any other method by

19     which they could have got this information?  Not by asking those sort of

20     leading questions.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe these

22     questions are not very leading, but I will try to adjust them.

23        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, when you were doing this visit, could you call the

24     centre of the MUP?

25        A.   Not at that time.  But there were two communications towards

Page 22152

 1     Vogosca which were safe at different times.

 2        Q.   No, but were you able to call them?

 3        A.   No.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well, we'll move on.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before we do that, could we have paragraph 4 on

 6     the screen?  That is the next page in English, please.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Have you read paragraph 4?

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Which begins with what, Mr. Cvijetic?  Do you

12     read the beginning of it in Serbian so that we see what it is about?

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the paragraph

14     that goes:

15             "The Serbian forces are successfully advancing while fighting in

16     down-town Sarajevo"?

17             Is that the paragraph you mean?

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that's the paragraph you showed the witness,

19     that's okay.  We've seen it now.

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That's not the one.  It was

21     paragraph 1, paragraph 1 that mentions the Yugoslav People's Army.

22     That's why I asked him whether they could have got that information

23     through the Yugoslav People's Army.  And then the second paragraph

24     related to Vogosca that he visited.  Then paragraph 3 mentions Ilijas,

25     which he also visited.  So it was paragraphs 1, 2 and 3, Your Honours.

Page 22153

 1     Can you see that?

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry, Mr. Cvijetic, my mistake.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

 4        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, here you talked about the communications system,

 5     and I would like to know whether you knew that there was an instruction

 6     on the urgent and current information being provided in the Ministry of

 7     the Interior.

 8        A.   Yes, there was such an information to report urgently and on

 9     time.  That was taken over from the previous times.

10        Q.   Very well.  Please just answer yes or no, because we don't have a

11     lot of time.  That's why I'm trying to get you to hurry up.

12             Did you need an appropriate communications system for such

13     reporting?  Can you please just tell me whether you needed a

14     communications system in order to meet this obligation of informing?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Very well, you've answered my question.  When did that

17     communications system start functioning in 1992?  In your opinion, when

18     did it start functioning in the entire territory of Republika Srpska?

19        A.   As far as I recall, it was in late 1992.  I was talking about

20     official communications, cryptographic data protection.

21        Q.   Now listen to this:  This system of reporting, after the system

22     was established in all of Republika Srpska, or beforehand, in those areas

23     where some communications existed, were local public security stations

24     able to send information that you later established, after you arrived in

25     the field, that they weren't realistic?  Were there any such situations?

Page 22154

 1        A.   No.  Reports weren't arriving.  You could send reports in person,

 2     by courier.

 3        Q.   You didn't understand my question.  The question was clear.

 4     During your visits, did you establish that the situation in the field was

 5     different to what you thought before you had set out?

 6        A.   Yes.  I talked about that before.

 7        Q.   Very well.  That's what I'm asking you.

 8             My next question:  As far as your visits and instructive

 9     inspections are concerned, among others, were they also to inform the

10     Ministry of the Interior about what was happening in the field?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You put these visits into two categories:  There were blitz

13     visits, as you call them, and there were instructive inspections.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Which is the best way for the ministry to get accurate

16     information about what was happening in the field, of all of the types

17     that we've mentioned now?

18        A.   Only based on instructive inspections, which were based on the

19     instructions for such inspections of the SJBs, if a high-quality

20     instructive inspection was carried out.

21        Q.   Very well.  We'll go back to your visits and instructive

22     inspections.  Now I'll move on to the next topic.

23             During cross-examination, you were shown a document that was a

24     payroll from the Ministry of the Interior at the centre.  Do you recall

25     this document?

Page 22155

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just for the reference, I'll say

 3     it's 1D569.  Could we please have that on the screen.  I would like to

 4     ask the witness some questions.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The tab number, please?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It's tab 3 in the Defence binder.

 7     And to be honest, I can't find it in the Prosecution binder, but I

 8     believe Ms. Korner used it as well.

 9             There it is.

10        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, I would just like to illustrate something with

11     this.  Tell me, please, when did you practically start working in the

12     MUP?

13        A.   As I said --

14        Q.   Just shortly.  When did you start working?

15        A.   In early May, on the 4th of May, 1992.

16        Q.   Very well.  Hold on, I'll ask you.  And when were you appointed?

17        A.   I was appointed on the 6th of May; not only I, but quite a few

18     other employees.

19        Q.   Let us correct this in the record.  Could you please tell us when

20     you were appointed, because the transcript says something else?

21        A.   The 6th of April.

22        Q.   Could you please just answer my question, and don't rush until

23     I'm finished with my question.  Now I would like to know why this was

24     done.

25        A.   I said it before.

Page 22156

 1        Q.   Just briefly, please.

 2        A.   In most cases, this was done just to link up years of service.

 3     The salary was so low, so insignificant, but the entitlement to

 4     retirement and to years of pensionable service was significant, and so

 5     this employment of the first one to three months was linked up in order

 6     to be entitled to years of pensionable service.

 7        Q.   Very well.  That was the essence of my question.  My next

 8     question is this:  Then the payroll of the employees in the centre and in

 9     public security stations, did they show realistically the number of

10     employees in the first two or three months, as employees were still

11     arriving?  Please just answer me.

12        A.   They are not realistic indicators, because this is a separate

13     service.

14        Q.   I just want to know whether they're realistic or not.

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Very well, we're done with that question.  I will not use

17     Ms. Korner's methods and say that you won't go home tomorrow if you don't

18     answer quickly, but --

19        A.   I know quite a lot of employees.

20        Q.   Do you know whether this was done in the MUP at the centre, at

21     the CSBs and at the SJBs, that years of pensionable service were linked

22     up?  Do you know that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Very well, you've answered my question.  Let's move on.

25             You were shown a payroll list for the Skelani SJB, so I would

Page 22157

 1     like to have Exhibit 8D1 on the screen.

 2             You don't have it there.  It's a Prosecution exhibit.  Please

 3     take a look at the screen.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The number, please.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] It was tab 18 in the Prosecution

 6     binder.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Please take a look at that list.  Oh, it's not on the screen yet.

10             This is 65 ter 8D1.

11             It's still not the one.  I apologise, Your Honours.  No, I gave

12     you the wrong number.  It's 65 ter 20163.  It's earlier tab 16A in the

13     Prosecution binder.  I apologise.

14             There we go.  Can you see it?  We'll just wait.

15             Mr. Orasanin, when discussing this list, on transcript pages of

16     the 8th of June, and these are pages 22064, 22065 and 22066, you were

17     told that during your testimony you said that while visiting Skelani, you

18     only saw Mr. Milanovic, and that you had the impression that this station

19     wasn't functioning.  And then you were shown this document, and you were

20     asked whether this document actually showed that in this small town, in

21     May, there was, indeed, a police station that worked with 10 policemen,

22     and you replied:

23             "Yes, this list proves that."

24             Do you remember replying that?

25        A.   That it functioned?

Page 22158

 1        Q.   I'm asking you merely whether you remember the answer that you

 2     gave, and then I'm going to ask you something else about it.  So do you

 3     remember or do you not remember that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Ms. Korner then said, at 22065, that this shows that

 6     the Public Security Station -- that Skelani had a proper public security

 7     station.  Later on, you spoke about this commentary of hers.

 8             After it had been concluded that you gave a wrong impression to

 9     the Trial Chamber, when you said that there was nobody in Skelani during

10     your visit, later, on 22066, it was said that this was a fully functional

11     station that had a commander, a chief, and eight working policemen.  Do

12     you remember that that's what Ms. Korner said, that that was a fully

13     functional police station?  This is what it says in our transcript.

14             Mr. Orasanin, this list, is it a sufficient and reliable proof

15     that the policemen listed here actually worked during the time when you

16     were visiting there?

17        A.   No.  This is a payroll.  The situation in the field was not like

18     this.

19        Q.   All right, all right.  Let me ask you another question.  What is

20     the proper way --

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I actually -- I'll leave aside the

22     summary and the propriety of trying to contradict your own witness, but I

23     applied to make this an exhibit and Your Honours said, no, because it was

24     outside the area.  But in the light of the fact that it's been gone back

25     over in re-examination, I think it would probably be more helpful if it

Page 22159

 1     could now be exhibited.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Do you have a view on that, Mr. Cvijetic?  You're

 3     using it?

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this document was

 5     presented here, accompanied by a claim that it establishes the lack of

 6     credibility --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I know the argument -- [Overlapping speakers]

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] And now I want to establish that

 9     his statements about the work of this station and the number of employees

10     in the station were accurate.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Ms. Korner is asking that this document now be

12     exhibited because you're using it again in redirect.  What is your

13     position on that?  Do you agree or do you object?

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it was

15     admitted.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, it wasn't.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  It was my conviction

18     that this was shown to the witness and admitted.  So this is related to

19     Skelani, and that's why we concluded that this municipality is not

20     covered by the indictment, and that's why it actually wasn't admitted,

21     but it was used for this other particular limited purpose, and I'm also

22     using it for this other purpose.  I simply want to establish whether the

23     witness spoke the truth or not.

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Let me ask you again.  Can we admit it or do you

25     object?

Page 22160

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, I don't want it to be

 2     admitted.  I'm using it merely to illustrate a topic that I'm currently

 3     discussing with the witness, and that's the issue of his credibility.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  The document is admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2354, Your Honours.

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, can we conclude from this document whether the

 8     police station functioned properly in all its elements?  Is it possible

 9     to arrive at such a conclusion based on this document alone?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   All right.  Then I'm going to show you another document, P993.

12     It's tab 40.  I think it's a Prosecution document.

13             Mr. Orasanin --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   -- when you said that that payroll was not sufficient, could you

16     now tell me:  What is a proper way to establish whether a police station

17     is functioning?

18        A.   Only through instructive inspection.

19             That is the only way stipulated by the law.

20        Q.   All right.  Could you take a look at this report on the

21     supervisory inspection, among other stations, in Skelani police station

22     as well.  Is that the document?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Wait, wait.  Can we have the last

25     page so that the witness could see who signed the document.

Page 22161

 1        Q.   Do you see it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you know who the signature is?

 4        A.   Yes.  It's Drago Borovcanin.  He was there.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2 of this

 6     document.  In Serbian - let me count the paragraphs - the fifth

 7     paragraph, beginning with the words:

 8             "So far, this public security station has not achieved any

 9     significant results in its work."

10             Take a look at that paragraph.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   The following paragraph, Mr. Borovcanin finds that there was a

13     dual appointment of the key executives.  Two were appointed by the MUP,

14     and another two were appointed by the local authorities.  Can you see

15     that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you confirm that that was the actual situation at some point?

18     Did Mr. Borovcanin tell you about it?

19        A.   Later, I know that there were problems.  I was in charge of

20     border police, and I knew about this.

21        Q.   Take a look at the last paragraph, where it says -- wait, listen

22     to me.  Of all the employees, only four were appointed?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The following paragraph, please.

25     It's on the next page in Serbian.  It's the same page in English.

Page 22162

 1        Q.   Would you read the first paragraph in Serbian, and then I'm going

 2     to ask you a question.  Can you see it, where it says:

 3             "It was not possible to organise --"

 4             Well, exactly, that's your purview, your service?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Then let us take a look at the last paragraph on this page.  Yes,

 7     on the same page, the last paragraph.  Read it, please.  In English, it's

 8     the following page.

 9             So read the conclusions of Mr. Borovcanin.  He says that there is

10     no service that you were in charge, that there was no national security

11     service, no judicial and other service, and that the problems are too

12     dogged.  Can you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And he's of the opinion that the current personnel is not in the

15     position to independently solve all these problems?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Take a look at his proposal: that a mixed working group

18     consisting of officers from the department for fighting crime, and other

19     departments, should be sent there.  Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Continue listening to me.

22             Can we have the last page in Serbian.

23             At the very beginning of the page, Mr. Borovcanin proposes that

24     if the working group assesses, a part of the special unit of the ministry

25     should be sent there.  Can you see that?

Page 22163

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now, the question:  Was there a functioning public

 3     security station in Skelani?

 4        A.   No.  That's what we saw while we performed the first inspection.

 5     I already said it.

 6        Q.   Does this report confirm your first impression that you conveyed

 7     to the Trial Chamber during the beginning of your testimony?

 8        A.   Yes.  The police station there did not function within the

 9     MUP Administration.

10        Q.   All right.  So much for Skelani.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Cvijetic, did we or will we hear from the man

12     who drafted this report, Mr. Borovcanin?

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] He already testified.

14             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, can we --

15             MR. CVIJETIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

16             MS. KORNER:  Just hold on, please.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let me answer the Judge.

18             MS. KORNER:  I'm not quite clear on the status.

19             Could we go into private session, and then Mr. - what's his

20     name? - Cvijetic can answer the question.

21                           [Private session]

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 22164

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Let us move to the questions that you were asked related to the

 7     situation in Zvornik.

 8             You were shown another payroll in relation to Zvornik.  It was

 9     65 ter 20159.

10             Can we have it on the screens, please.

11             Yes.  We need to see the contents of the document.  If this is

12     the first page, then perhaps we should see the third page.

13             Please read this document, Mr. Orasanin.  You do not need to read

14     it aloud.

15             Mr. Orasanin, do you see the date in the upper left-hand corner?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Can we have, just for a moment,

18     the following page, and then we are going to back to the first page.

19             So this is now the list of the employees that are listed on the

20     payroll for the previous month.

21             Now, can we have the first page again.  Excuse me, I meant the

22     page just before this one.  Yes, this one?

23        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, Milos Pantelic, the chief, requests the funds for

24     the salaries for the month of May.  My question is:  The people listed

25     here, were they and could they have been, objectively speaking, employed

Page 22165

 1     in the month of May, or can we arrive at this conclusion based on the

 2     payroll sheet?  Is this a reliable proof?

 3        A.   No.  This confirms what I said earlier, that they were not the

 4     members of the MUP of Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   Take a look at the addressee.

 6        A.   It's to the Serbian Temporary Municipal Government in Zvornik.

 7        Q.   At 20879, you said that the Public Security Station in Zvornik

 8     was covered by the overall MUP control only after the Yellow Wasps were

 9     eliminated, and then it was Djokanovic [as interpreted] who was

10     appointed, after the position of the chief, and he was the first person

11     appointed by the ministry.  Do you remember that's what you told me?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Let me just check the

14     transcript.  Not "Djokanovic."  What was the name?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lokancevic, Milorad.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   No.  Tell us that once again slowly, loudly.

18        A.   The chief was appointed by the MUP, and his name was

19     Milorad Bokancevic [as interpreted].  It was sometime in mid-July.

20        Q.   Slowly.  All right.  The first letter is "L", Lokancevic, but we

21     have the name in the documents.

22             My question is:  The document on the screen, does it confirm that

23     the Public Security Station was controlled by the local authorities?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] That was all.  We can continue.

Page 22166

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but it has got top.

 2             Although Your Honours will take into account that what's on the

 3     transcript is adduced from leading questions, sometimes later it may be

 4     difficult to remember this.  Mr. Cvijetic really cannot say to his own

 5     witness, Does it confirm that the Public Security Station was controlled

 6     by the local authorities, particularly when that whole matter of the

 7     relationship between the police and the crisis staffs is a subject which

 8     is at issue between the Prosecution and Defence.  The questions must be

 9     asked in non-leading form.  That is, what, where, how, where, when, is

10     how the questions start, not by presenting a fact and asking the witness

11     to confirm it.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, put another way, Mr. Cvijetic, what

13     counsel for both sides are doing is highlighting certain documents with a

14     view to, when we come to the stage of submissions, inviting the Chamber

15     to draw certain inferences from those documents.  So at this stage,

16     having regard to the ground that has been covered, especially in

17     cross-examination, I suppose the utility of this witness is really

18     highlighting, for the benefit of the record, for the benefit of the

19     Chamber, the relevant documents on which you would be relying to draw the

20     inferences contrary to those invited by the OTP.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will explain why

22     I'm following this line of questioning.

23             Well, first of all, I just reminded the witness of his own

24     evidence, and he confirmed, so that should not be in contest.

25             Now, on page --

Page 22167

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the transcript

 2     page.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] ... the witness spoke about the

 4     fact that the local stations were frequently under Crisis Staff control

 5     and local authorities.  He said that when speaking about Zvornik, and I

 6     made a reference to that, so that I don't think my question was

 7     inappropriate.

 8             The second reason, Your Honours, why I'm dealing with this, is

 9     that when this evidence was adduced during cross-examination, it was done

10     so in order to show that this witness is not reliable, when he described

11     that his evidence was not reliable about the time when he described the

12     situation at the Public Security Station in Karakaj.

13             I just would like to intervene for the transcript.  The page of

14     transcript was 20049 [as interpreted], line 12.  22049, 22049, line 12.

15        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, it remains for us -- and again this is to shed some

16     light on the issue of your reliability, because that was questioned in

17     reference to your evidence about Bijeljina.  Now, in yesterday's

18     transcript, page number -- just bear with me for a moment, please.

19     Page 16, lines 1 and 2, in response to Ms. Korner's question, where she

20     asked you to state clearly whether Mr. Jesuric, Predrag, at some point in

21     time was the chief of the CSB in Bijeljina, to which you replied:

22             "It is, of course, logical that he was a chief."

23             And you explained why, and you made a reference to the competent

24     courts.  And you said that where there was a court seat, there were CSBs

25     as well.  Do you remember replying to that question in this manner?

Page 22168

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Ms. Korner also put to you some provisions of the Law of Internal

 3     Affairs, which clearly showed that there were five centres of security

 4     services established in the republic.  Do you remember that you were

 5     shown that part of the law?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   We will not go into all the five of them, but one of them was the

 8     Bijeljina CSB; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, we do not contest that Bijeljina had a CSB, and this is in

11     reply to Ms. Korner's argument yesterday, and that Mr. Jesuric was the

12     chief of that centre.  Would you agree with that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now I'd like to show you the documents that led to some doubts

15     about your reliability, and I would like to show you the first document

16     that you were shown by Ms. Korner yesterday.  That's P2352.

17             P2352, please.

18             Now, please take a look at this document, Mr. Orasanin.

19             Could we just blow up the upper part of the document so that we

20     can see the agency in question.  That's in the left upper-hand corner.

21             Can you see that the heading shows that this document was sent

22     from the Public Security Station in Bijeljina?  Can you see that part?

23        A.   Yes.  It says:  "Public Security Station, Bijeljina."

24        Q.   Very well.  Now, please take a look below, where we see the

25     signature and the stamp.

Page 22169

 1             Can we blow that portion up, please.

 2             Here, we clearly see that Mr. Jesuric signed this document as the

 3     chief of the CSB.  Can you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you also determine where this stamp comes from or who it

 6     belongs to?

 7        A.   Well, it says the Centre of the Security Services, Bijeljina.

 8        Q.   Could you see the next line?

 9        A.   Yes, it says "Public Security Station, Bijeljina."  So both the

10     heading and the stamp are those of the security station.

11        Q.   Well, sir, I'm just trying to point out why there was some

12     confusion regarding your reliability and your answers.

13             I would like to show you another document --

14             MS. KORNER:  Before we move on, I'm sorry, you can't mislead the

15     Court.  What the document says and what he's read out is it says, the

16     "CSB and the SJB," and so does the stamp, apparently.  It doesn't say

17     just the "SJB Bijeljina."

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps I should explain

19     this.

20             All public security stations have -- as part of their name, they

21     have the "Centre of Security Services" -- well, let me put this question

22     to the witness.

23        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, whose stamp is this that we see here?

24        A.   Well, both the stamp and the heading of the Public Security

25     Station are according to procedure.  In other words, if a public security

Page 22170

 1     station belongs to a centre, for instance, Bijeljina Centre or Banja Luka

 2     Centre, it has to put both of those in the heading.  So it would say

 3     "Public Security Station," and above that it would say "Centre of

 4     Security Services."

 5        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, could you please tell us, according to this

 6     procedure, whose stamp is this?

 7        A.   Well, according to the rules and the law and the regulations,

 8     this is the Public Security Station stamp.

 9             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well, that's sufficient.

10             Could we now see document P1409, P1409.

11        Q.   Please take a look at this document.

12             My apologies, Your Honours.  The tab number is -- perhaps Tanja

13     can find it for us.  I believe Ms. Korner used this document, but that

14     they hadn't been listed, so I don't really have that information.

15     Unfortunately, we can only use it as shown on the screen.  My apologies.

16     That's on transcript page, and I can say when this was used.  That's

17     23056, 23056 -- 22056.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, as you'll recall, it came up because

19     Mr. Cvijetic was disputing when I was putting to him there was chief of

20     the CSB.  And, indeed, as they're not disputing it, I'm at a loss to

21     understand the line of re-examination.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] No, I just wanted to explain why

24     this may have led to confusion and to doubts about the reliability of

25     this witness's evidence.

Page 22171

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Orasanin, from this letter of appointment, we can see

 2     that Mr. Jesuric was, indeed, appointed as chief of the station.

 3        A.   Well, yes, this is the only document that can confirm that.

 4        Q.   Would you please take a look at the upper left-hand corner.

 5             We need to scroll down the Serbian version.  We need to see

 6     what's above this heading.

 7             You can see there that there is something handwritten.  Could you

 8     please read it out for us?  I don't want to give testimony myself.

 9        A.   Well, it says:

10             "Sent on the 19th of April, 1992, to Bijeljina."

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] There we go.  In other words, 19

12     days after the letter of appointment was issued.

13             I see that Mr. Harhoff is warning me that it's time to go on

14     break, so we will break now.

15             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise and resume at 10.30.

16                           --- Recess taken at 9.59 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.37 a.m.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Cvijetic, whereas we would have taken 10

19     minutes, nearly, of the time promised to you, we must plead force majeure

20     in this case.

21             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before the witness

22     comes in:  At one point, there was a mistake in the transcript, saying

23     that I called His Honour Judge Harhoff "Mr. Harhoff," and I didn't.  I

24     would just like to correct that for the transcript.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I'm fine with both, Mr. Cvijetic.  Don't worry.

Page 22172

 1             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Either way, I do believe that

 2     you're a gentleman.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  You may call me "sir," then.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Just a small joke, Your Honour.  I

 5     just wanted to correct this.

 6        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, could we shortly move on to document P2017.

 7             You see this, Mr. Orasanin?  Let's just see the English version

 8     as well.  This is the appointment of Predrag Jesuric on the 1st of April,

 9     and it arrived in Bijeljina on the 19th of April.  And now, on the 19th

10     of April, Mr. Jesuric receives a new appointment.  Please take a look to

11     what position he was appointed.  Can you tell us?

12        A.   He is appointed chief -- head of Personnel Section of the BH MUP.

13     And the date is the 19th of April, 1992, when a previous decision to

14     appoint him arrived in Bijeljina.

15        Q.   I just wanted to make it clear, why there might have been some

16     confusion about his function while you were there.

17             I will show you a next decision, and I would like to ask you to

18     answer briefly, because we have very little time.

19             Could we look at document 1D065615, please.  I'll repeat, if

20     necessary.  1D065615.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do we have a tab number?

22             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Tab 39.  But to be honest, it's

23     from the Defence binder, tab 39 in the Defence binder.

24        Q.   Please take a look, Mr. Orasanin.  We'll take a quick look.

25             On the 25th of May, 1992, Mr. Stanisic appoints can you see whom?

Page 22173

 1     Dragan Devedlaka?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, head of the Bijeljina CSB?

 5        Q.   Instead of Mr. Jesuric?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And based on that previous appointment, he was already an

 8     employee of the MUP in the Personnel Service.  Do you see a small

 9     confusion there?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at page 2, please.

12     I'll apologise, there is no page 2 in the English.

13        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, let me ask you, briefly:  Do you know how long

14     Mr. Devedlaka stayed in that function?  Just tell me briefly whether you

15     know or you don't know.

16        A.   I don't know exactly.

17        Q.   Very well.

18             Did you know that Mr. Dragan Andan came into that function after

19     him?  Did you know that?  Tell me that.  Did you know that Dragan Andan

20     also came to Bijeljina?

21        A.   Yes, and Sinisa Karan.

22        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, I have you recorded on the transcript, on pages

23     21887, saying that there was nobody at the centre and that you talked to

24     the head of the Legal Affairs.  In your opinion, did the Bijeljina CSB

25     function immediately on the 1st of April, when the MUP was established?

Page 22174

 1     Did it have all the services, et cetera?  Was that your impression during

 2     your quick visit?  Could you tell me, briefly, yes or no?

 3        A.   Not in the functional sense.  There was some confusion about

 4     that.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Also, let me ask you this:  Did you know that

 6     Mr. Stanisic made a decision in which the Zvornik SJB was made a part of

 7     the Sarajevo CSB?  Did you know that it went to the centre; yes or no?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Did this resolve the status of the station in the sense that you

10     mentioned, whether it was Bijeljina or whether it was part of Zvornik?

11        A.   As far as I recall, it later became a part of Bijeljina, but I

12     can't be precise about the period.

13        Q.   And was it a part of the Sarajevo CSB?

14        A.   Yes, in the beginning.

15             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  That was my question.

16             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.  I just wanted to help, because the question,

17     as translated and as typed, says:

18             "Did this resolve the status of the station in the sense that it

19     was mentioned, whether it was Bijeljina or whether it was part of

20     Zvornik?"

21             Is that what you meant to say?  I don't think so.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was part of the Sarajevo centre

23     when we were there, just as the other stations were.

24             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, I have to show you the following document:  It's

Page 22175

 1     65 ter, Defence list, 33D1, and now it's 1D571, tab 29.

 2             Could we have immediately page 2 in Serbian.

 3             Mr. Orasanin, do you remember that you were shown this document

 4     by Ms. Korner yesterday in relation to Visegrad?

 5             Excuse me, we also need the following page in English, or, more

 6     precisely, the page pertaining to Visegrad.  Yes.

 7             And she was talking about your statement, that war crimes

 8     committed against the Serbian population were investigated, and then you

 9     said you were referring to just one single crime that had been committed.

10             Now, I don't know where this is in English.  We have to go to

11     "Foca."  Can we find "Foca" in English, and I would like the same page in

12     Serbian to remain.  In Serbian, it's the same page.

13             Mr. Orasanin, you are talking here about record of war criminals.

14     However, you mention "no ethnicity"?

15        A.   Yes.  This had to do with the forms, RZ-1.

16             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right, that's all.  That's all

17     I needed to show you.

18             The following document is 65 ter 323, or, rather, it's P623

19     [as interpreted].  P633.

20             And can we have the following page in Serbian, page 2.  It's

21     tab 9.

22        Q.   Take a look at the last paragraph, sir.  I showed you this

23     document, showing that the War Presidency appointed people in the

24     station.  Do you see that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22176

 1        Q.   However, at the bottom of the page, the fourth line from the

 2     bottom, it says that there are only five active policemen in the station.

 3     Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we have the

 6     following page in Serbian.  That's page 3.

 7        Q.   At the bottom of the third paragraph, the big one -- I need the

 8     bottom of the third paragraph.  We also have to find this in English.

 9        A.   "Robbery" and other stuff?

10        Q.   No, no.  I want you to read the part beginning about:

11             "Paramilitary formations are a particularly pronounced problem."

12             Can you find this sentence, where it says:

13             "In these circumstances, the police found itself completely

14     paralysed"?

15             So this is information dating from July.  It comes from Visegrad.

16     Does this reflect the realistic picture of the situation in Visegrad?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The following document is --

19     yesterday, you were shown a report on the work of the Ministry of the

20     Interior.  P6625 [as interpreted] -- P625.  Ms. Korner showed you page 17

21     in Serbian.

22             In Serbian, can we have page 17.  Page 17 in Serbian.

23             Don't zoom in.  This is page 30, and we need page 17.  In

24     e-court, it's page 21.  Right.

25        Q.   Now, while they're looking for this part in English, you just

Page 22177

 1     read it to yourself in Serbian.  The last paragraph on the page:

 2             "In this period, crime inspectors ..."

 3             In English, it's page 15 in e-court.

 4             Do you remember that Ms. Korner showed you this document and

 5     asserted that you had the priority in documenting war crimes committed

 6     against Serbs?  Do you remember that this was mentioned yesterday?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask you just this:  Did you have any intelligence

 9     that in the territory controlled by the Muslim forces, war crimes against

10     Serbian population were committed?  Merely yes or no will suffice.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   The Serbs who had been expelled and fled from this area, were

13     they the ones who informed you about this?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you document their statements?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Right.  Let us go back to the

18     previous page in Serbian.  It's page 14 in e-court in English.

19             Let me see.  One more page in Serbian.  Yes.

20        Q.   Take a look at the last paragraph on this page.  Let's see if we

21     have it in English.  Yes.  So take a look at this paragraph.

22        A.   Yes, I can see it.

23        Q.   Here, we can find the statement about crimes against humanity and

24     international law.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22178

 1        Q.   No ethnicity is mentioned here.  It doesn't say anything against

 2     whom proceedings should be instituted.  It merely says that the

 3     proceedings are underway.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, does this comport to your instructions and the

 6     forms that you brought into the field?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'll ask you just once more.  All data that you collected about

 9     victims of war crimes, regardless of the ethnicity, are they now being

10     used by the War Crimes Court in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, let us recapitulate.

13             You divided your visits in two categories, visits and instructive

14     supervisions?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   There were four rounds of visits.  I don't remember the number of

17     stations that you visited, but I do remember that you visited three

18     centres and a number of stations.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did you ever visit a public security centre in Trebinje?

21        A.   No, never.

22        Q.   Why?

23        A.   Because there were no communications.

24        Q.   What was the purpose of the blitz visits?  And could you give us

25     a "blitz" answer?

Page 22179

 1        A.   Yes, that's what I already stated.  We simply had to go into the

 2     field and get a picture of the situation there.  We had to get acquainted

 3     with the personnel.  They had to inform us about their problems.  And

 4     later on, we had to find out a solution.  So that was the blitz visit.

 5     It wasn't an actual inspection.

 6        Q.   All right.  Were you the first physical contact between the

 7     Ministry of the Interior and some of these stations?

 8        A.   Yes, it was I and Drago Borovcanin.  And I'm talking about the

 9     places with which we could communicate, where we could actually

10     physically arrive.

11        Q.   While you were there, did you also perform some tasks that were

12     not necessarily from your jurisdiction?  Be brief.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Did you also take mail?  Did you also perform a messenger duty?

15        A.   Yes, we did, also personnel duties.

16        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, after those visits, you should have carried out

17     instructive inspections?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, objectively speaking about 1992 and the situation in which

20     Republika Srpska found itself at the time, was it possible, with the

21     personnel and equipment that you had, to visit every single public

22     security station and find out what the situation there was?

23        A.   No, absolutely not.

24        Q.   My following question should be:  Was it sometimes the case that

25     you thought that everything was functioning perfectly in a particular

Page 22180

 1     station, and when you arrived there, you found out that nothing was

 2     functioning there?

 3        A.   Yes, that was our duty, that was the initial assumption.

 4        Q.   But did you find out a completely different situation from what

 5     you thought you would find there?

 6        A.   Yes.  I already spoke about it.  Things were very often quite

 7     different from what we thought they were.

 8        Q.   All right.  Did you also visit the towns in and around which

 9     battles were fought?

10        A.   Yes.  We were in Foca.

11        Q.   Did you mention some other town?

12        A.   At the beginning, it was also Zvornik.

13        Q.   And Brcko?

14        A.   Brcko, Foca, Visegrad, Zvornik.  All these towns were in the

15     areas where fighting was going on.  The roads were not clear.  We

16     couldn't arrive to other places.

17        Q.   My next question:  Were you sometimes in a situation where you

18     would enter a city which was completely deserted?

19        A.   Yes.  That was the case both in Foca and in Brcko.  It was --

20     they were ghost towns, as we say.

21        Q.   Did you have any contacts with paramilitary units, any encounters

22     with them?

23             MS. KORNER:  Can I ask how this arises from the

24     cross-examination, please?

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness gave

Page 22181

 1     evidence about the situation in Foca, and specifically in Brcko, where he

 2     was actually driven away by members of paramilitary units.

 3             MS. KORNER:  I did not challenge any of that.  Sorry.  I did not

 4     challenge any of that, nor did I ask any questions.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Well, let's move on.

 6        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, did they threaten you, when you had these

 7     encounters with them, or were you provoked by them?

 8        A.   Well, that was when --

 9        Q.   No.  Just tell us yes or no.

10        A.   Yes, in Foca.

11        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, do you have an official ID and a pistol?  Have you

12     been issued a pistol, as an authorised officer?

13        A.   Well, yes, at the time I did have an old official ID.

14        Q.   Well, all I wanted to know was:  Were you in a position, you and

15     your colleagues, to actually arrest these men who provoked you?

16        A.   No.  If I may add a short comment.

17        Q.   Well, please go ahead.  I only have 10 minutes left.

18        A.   I didn't even have a pistol with me, although that was my duty.

19     But had I had it, it would have actually just provoked them to perhaps

20     shoot us.  So we had these situations where we felt like that, and that's

21     the reason why I didn't have the pistol with me, although it is the duty

22     of policemen -- a police officer to carry his weapon.

23        Q.   Very well.  Did any of your colleagues get killed on duty

24     precisely when they had these encounters with paramilitary units?

25        A.   Well, yes, there were such cases.  It was -- it happened,

Page 22182

 1     actually, on this same route which we inspected.  There were four police

 2     officers who had been killed in Podrinje.

 3        Q.   Very well, that's sufficient.

 4        A.   Well, that's why we were cautious.

 5             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Please, I just have two more

 6     questions.

 7             MS. KORNER:  I'm just going to help you out, Mr. Cvijetic.

 8             We do not suggest that the three inspectors should have gone

 9     around arresting people.  That was not their duty.

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11        Q.   Mr. Orasanin, since you gave evidence about these actions in

12     Zvornik, Foca and so on:  Was it possible to actually handle these units

13     in such a way without the special support that you requested, special

14     units and so on?

15        A.   Well, it was impossible without the special police and some other

16     services.  And, of course, we also needed technical equipment for that

17     purpose.

18        Q.   Very well, thank you.  That's sufficient.  Just one last

19     question.  Are you aware that Mr. Stanisic had actually ordered that such

20     an operation be conducted in the Trebinje area, in other words, the area

21     where you did not get a chance to go and inspect it; yes or no?

22        A.   Well, yes, I said that I took part in preparing the operational

23     plan for that operation.

24        Q.   Yes, but you were referring to Foca.  What I am asking you about

25     is the CSB in Trebinje, and the south-eastern portion.  Did you know that

Page 22183

 1     there was an operation planned for that area as well?

 2        A.   Well, that would have happened after I had already left.

 3             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Well, Your Honours, I have no further questions for this witness.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Orasanin, we thank you for your attendance

 6     before the Tribunal.  Your examination is now at an end, and you are now

 7     released.  And we wish you a safe journey back to your home.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  My recollection is that according to the schedule,

10     we're sitting in afternoons next week.  So we take the --

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Ms. Korner.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, just one matter on scheduling.

14             After Your Honours told us yesterday that we would restart the

15     case after the recess on the 29th, it's been brought to our attention

16     that, in fact, the 30th happens to be another UN holiday.  I don't know

17     if Your Honours had noticed that one, fixing this, and we simply raise it

18     to see if it would be more sensible to sit on the Wednesday, rather than

19     the Monday.  But, I mean, as I say, it's a matter for Your Honours when

20     dealing with the scheduling.

21             JUDGE HALL:  I suppose when the calling side would have realised

22     that, we probably could have expected such an application.

23             MS. KORNER:  But, Your Honours -- again --

24             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you for bringing that to our attention.  No

25     doubt, they would take that on board.

Page 22184

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 2             Your Honours, the only other matter is if we could perhaps know

 3     early next week, once we know from Mr. Zecevic about the witnesses,

 4     what's going to happen about the Zupljanin case, when it will start,

 5     because I think that would help all parties.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  So we reconvene on Wednesday afternoon.

 7             I wish everyone a safe weekend.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.07 a.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

10                           June, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.