Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22185

 1                           Wednesday, 15 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good afternoon to

 9     everyone.  May we take the appearances for today, please.

10             MS. KORNER:  Good afternoon Your Honours, Joanna Korner and

11     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

14     Stanisic Defence this afternoon.  Thank you.

15             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For

16     Stojan Zupljanin, it's Aleksandar Aleksic.

17             JUDGE HALL:  We have been alerted by the Court Officer that there

18     are a number of housekeeping matters which Mr. Zecevic wishes to raise.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, thank you very much.

20     Your Honours, the Defence of Stanisic appreciates the position of the

21     Trial Chamber where the Trial Chamber is involved in a number of cases at

22     the moment.  However, I must raise our grave concern on the following

23     situation.  There is seven pending motions filed by the Stanisic Defence.

24     Now, two of the motions deal with our request to admit evidence based on

25     Rule 92 quater.  Three motions are motions to amend our 65 ter list.

Page 22186

 1     There is one motion for binding order to government of Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina dated 19th of May.  And there is a motion to admit

 3     documents and selected footnote documents from our Expert Bajagic report.

 4             Now, Your Honours, this is our penultimate witness.  We have one

 5     more witness to go, and before all seven of these motions are decided

 6     upon, we will not be able to file our bar table motion.  Now, that will

 7     of course make our position on the closing of our case very -- will keep

 8     it somewhere in vein, you see, because the moment when we file our bar

 9     table motion, then we will be in a position, perhaps, to rest our case.

10             The second thing -- the second thing, Your Honours, our last

11     witness would be our last opportunity before the bar table motion to

12     introduce some important evidence.  Now, this situation will actually

13     impair our ability to present important evidence to the Trial Chamber.

14     Because in case Your Honours would not accept our motions as stated, we

15     would -- we could use the opportunity to lead the evidence with the last

16     witness on a number of these documents.  Now, I can do that in any case

17     but then it will just prolong the time and it might be the fact that

18     Your Honours will admit these documents based on our motions, so then I

19     would be repeating and using the court time and resources.

20             Now, this is a very grave concern that we are having concerning

21     this issue, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE HALL:  If I might interrupt briefly, Mr. Zecevic, how many

23     of the outstanding motions are awaiting responses from the Prosecution?

24             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I can assist with that.  I'm not aware

25     of three motions to add to the 65 ter list.  I am aware of one which was

Page 22187

 1     served, I was going to say, filed on the 3rd of June and we are going to

 2     respond.  We've got to Friday and we are going to respond to it.  One

 3     which was produced yesterday which appears to relate to documents which

 4     the Defence wish to show this witness.  There was a great deal of

 5     confusion about that.  And so in respect of that, we are really waiting

 6     to see how the Defence deal with these documents with the witness.  I

 7     mean, that's what they say in the motion and it may well be we don't feel

 8     the necessity to respond.  But certainly we will be responding to the one

 9     of 3rd of June.  And one on the 6th of May, I must admit I have

10     absolutely no recollection whether we responded or decide we were not

11     going to respond.  Mr. Smith, helpfully, thinks we did respond already.

12     Clearly we must have, it's the 6th of May and we were going to respond.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  So if I can summarise, Your Honours, it appears

15     that there are two motions that the Office of the Prosecutor needs to

16     responds to, or depends if they want, of course.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm told we did respond to the 6th of

20     May motion on the 18th of May.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  The -- we will consider the implications

22     of these motions as Mr. Zecevic has articulated the affect of any -- not

23     merely any delay, but the affect of the progress of the resolution of

24     these outstanding matters, and we fully appreciate how an early answer is

25     required.  It's something that we would have to give consideration to, of

Page 22188

 1     course, as judges outside of court.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, there's just two other matters which

 3     really arise out of that.  The first is:  The Defence filed a response to

 4     our application to have documents put to Mr. Bjelosevic de-MFI'd.  I

 5     mean, it's not the right expression, but we are going to be seeking leave

 6     to respond to a response because we say it contains some inaccuracies,

 7     and we are hoping to file that application for leave to respond to their

 8     response tomorrow, just so that Your Honours know.  But the second matter

 9     is this, of course:  We are obviously moving fairly speedily into

10     Mr. Zupljanin's Defence case, and I appreciate this has not been

11     mentioned by Mr. Aleksic, but he has made an application for a number of

12     witnesses to be called under the Rule 92 bis, which we've objected to.

13     And, clearly, I think from all sides, we'd like to know about that too

14     and Mr. Zecevic in particular, I imagine.  Not Mr. Zecevic, sorry,

15     Mr. Krgovic.

16             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I can only add that

17     my learned friend Mr. Krgovic spoke about this last week and we await the

18     decision of the Trial Chamber on this after they rule on our submission

19     based on Rule 92 ter.  We have one witness based on Rule 92 quater and

20     then we'll decide whether we will call all these witnesses.  I can't give

21     you an opinion on this right now until we've had the ruling of the

22     Trial Chamber.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24             One other matter.  Mr. Zecevic, we have seen your e-mail

25     communication about the two witnesses whom you no longer intend to call

Page 22189

 1     and may we have that confirmed for the record, please.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I advised -- as promised, I

 3     advised yesterday morning the Trial Chamber and the other party -- I

 4     mean, all the parties to this trial that the Stanisic Defence will not be

 5     calling witnesses Nikola Milanovic and witness Branko Vlac [phoen].

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             So --

 8             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the last thing was I don't know

 9     whether Your Honours reached a decision on Mr. Krgovic's application that

10     there should be a week's break between the end of the Stanisic's case and

11     the beginning of his case.

12             JUDGE HALL:  The short answer is no, but the -- that is in a

13     sense tied up with the matters which Mr. Zecevic raised, so it is

14     unfortunate that we can't give a more clearer or more tidy indication as

15     to what is going to happen, but by -- certainly by next week, we must,

16     for the sake of efficiency, have sorted out these matters.  Thanks

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE HALL:  I am reminded by my brother Judge Delvoie that when

19     I said the short answer is no, what I meant is that we hadn't made a

20     decision, so unless the parties --

21             MS. KORNER:  I understood that.  I didn't read into it that

22     there's not going to be a break.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 22190

 1             JUDGE HALL:  So, Mr. Zecevic, could you call your next witness,

 2     please.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Our next witness is MS-003,

 4     Mr. Simo Tusevljak.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good afternoon, sir, and welcome to the Tribunal

 7     and thank you for coming to The Hague to give your testimony.  May I

 8     first of all ask you if you can hear me in a language that you

 9     understand?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could I then please ask you to read the solemn

12     declaration which is being put to you by the usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  SIMO TUSEVLJAK

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very well, sir.  You may be seated.

18             Could you please state your name and your date and place of

19     birth, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Simo Tusevljak.  I was

21     born on the 12th of February, 1965, in Sarajevo.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Tusevljak, have you

23     ever testified before this Court?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have, as a Defence witness

25     in the case against General Milosevic.

Page 22191

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  And by the way, have you testified in

 2     other domestic courts in your country of residence about the matters

 3     relating to the war in the former Yugoslavia?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I have never testified at home

 5     on these issues.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  Since you have been here as a witness

 7     and have given some testimony already, you are familiar with the

 8     proceedings that apply to this Court, but maybe I should just resume for

 9     the matter of clarity that you are being called as a witness by the

10     Defence for Mr. Stanisic, and Mr. Stanisic's counsel has asked for six

11     hours to examine you in chief.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Your Honours, 12 hours.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I apologise, 12 hours to examine you in chief.

14     And Mr. Krgovic --

15             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will say an hour

16     just as a matter of precaution but I don't really expect to have any

17     questions for this witness.  Out of caution, I will say an hour.

18             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  And this was the Defence

19     counsel for Mr. Zupljanin speaking.  So counsel for Mr. Stanisic has

20     asked for 12 hours; counsel for Mr. Zupljanin, possibly one hour; and

21     counsel for the Prosecution in cross-examination has asked for?

22             MS. KORNER:  I've met Mr. Tusevljak before.  If Mr. Tusevljak can

23     be persuaded to keep his answers short, I would hope that 10 hours would

24     suffice.  But as a matter of caution, as I say, having met Mr. Tusevljak,

25     12 hours.

Page 22192

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much, Ms. Korner.

 2             So there we have it.  This means that you will certainly be kept

 3     to testify for all of this week and possibly most of next week also.

 4             You also know already, Mr. Tusevljak, that we run the sessions in

 5     90 minutes, after which we have to change the tapes and while we change

 6     the tapes, we normally take 20 minutes break.  I should also advise you

 7     to make sure that you do not respond too quickly to the questions put to

 8     you because we have interpreters who interpret what you say into English

 9     and French.  And if counsel and the witness are overlapping, it is

10     impossible for the interpreters to catch what you are saying, in which

11     case nothing comes out of it.  So in your own interest and certainly in

12     the interests of the Judges, we kindly ask you to follow the cursor on

13     the screen, I think to your left, where you will see that it moves.  So

14     as long as text is still rolling on the monitor, please withhold your

15     answer and do not answer before you see the cursor has stopped.

16             So as I said, please observe to hold a small pause between

17     question and answer, and, also, as Ms. Korner has suggested, do keep your

18     answers short and to the point, listen carefully to what is being asked

19     and try to respond to the question as shortly as you can.  And finally,

20     Mr. Tusevljak, I need to remind you that the solemn declaration that you

21     have just made to us does oblige you to tell the truth and nothing but

22     truth and the whole truth, and if you don't do that, you risk to be

23     prosecuted for perjury, and I should remind you that there is a severe

24     penalty for providing false or incomplete information to the Chamber.

25             With these words, I give the floor to Mr. Zecevic.  Thank you.

Page 22193

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  If the usher could assist

 2     me, this is a binder for the witness.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Tusevljak.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, when you were born -- please tell us where you

 7     were born?

 8        A.   I was born in Sarajevo, in Nedzarici.

 9        Q.   Have you completed university education?

10        A.   Yes, I completed the police academy in Skopje.

11        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, I would like to ask you to be slow in your answers

12     because first my question has it to be interpreted into English and then

13     your reply needs to be interpreted as well.

14             Tell me, it says here that you completed the police academy in

15     Skopje, can you explain to me what kind of university that is that you

16     completed in Skopje and what year that was?

17        A.   I enrolled in 1984 and completed the university of security in

18     1988 [Realtime transcript read in error "1998"] in Skopje.  That was the

19     only university of the interior in the former Yugoslavia.  Apart from

20     studying the law, we also studied police affairs, criminology, forensics,

21     methodology, the operative and everything else that the police deals with

22     and that the organs of the interior deal with.  That's where I learned my

23     expertise at that university.  And after completing my studies, I started

24     working at the SJB in Novi Grad, Sarajevo.

25        Q.   What year did you start working in the Novi Grad police station

Page 22194

 1     in Sarajevo, and at what position?

 2        A.   I started working in 1989 on the 1st of March as crime prevention

 3     inspector.  We dealt with regular crimes, theft, and we also dealt with

 4     serious crimes.

 5        Q.   For the transcript, it was recorded on page 9, line 22, that you

 6     completed the university in 1998.  What year did you complete the

 7     university in Skopje?

 8        A.   In 1988.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Tusevljak, until when did you work in the

10     Novi Grad SJB?

11        A.   I worked in the Novi Grad SJB until the 1st of September, 1990,

12     and then I became an inspector in the SUP in Sarajevo.  I was a

13     co-ordinator.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the end of the

15     answer.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tusevljak, could you repeat the last part of

17     your answer, which was missed by the interpreters.  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked as an inspector in the

19     Sarajevo SUP on property theft and I was co-ordinator for property theft

20     for all of the city of Sarajevo.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And what was the relationship between the town SUP and the SJB,

23     the Novi Grad SJB, I mean in terms of hierarchy, in terms of the

24     hierarchy that was valid in the structure of the MUP of the then

25     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 22195

 1        A.   The town SUP existed only in Sarajevo, and there were ten

 2     Sarajevo municipalities which were a part of it.  We were above the

 3     Novi Grad SJB.  However, since there was also a CSB in Sarajevo which

 4     was -- which also contained all the police stations in Sarajevo, the role

 5     was that of a co-ordination role and a monitoring the situation of crime

 6     in these ten Sarajevo municipalities.

 7             Apart from this, the town SUP contained departments, forensic

 8     departments which the SJBs didn't have, so the town SUP provided

 9     services, forensic services to all the SJBs in the city of Sarajevo in

10     relation to general crimes.  There was also fire prevention department,

11     there were inspectors, there was a department that dealt with foreigners,

12     and there was a department for white-collar crime which the SJBs also

13     didn't have.  It was the town SUP was the only one that had this.  And

14     they dealt with minor crimes.  The CSB had a similar department that

15     dealt with more serious crimes of that type.

16        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, the town SUP of Sarajevo, as for this

17     co-ordination role that it had, with regard to the crime prevention

18     police, did they have this kind of co-ordination role in view of the

19     other segments that existed in these ten public security stations in the

20     territory of the town of Sarajevo?

21        A.   Well, for the most part, this was a role of co-ordination,

22     although there were services there.  There was the chief of police for

23     the town of Sarajevo, that's for the uniform police, and they had their

24     own departments and then there was the police station for traffic safety

25     within the town police station.  I worked there only for three years.  I

Page 22196

 1     don't really know all of that, but basically my work focused on crime.

 2        Q.   Tell me, when you came to the town SUP of Sarajevo, who was your

 3     immediate superior?

 4        A.   My immediate superior, or rather, the chief of the general crime

 5     department was Goran Macar.  The head of sector was Idriz Hodzic, and

 6     very soon after that he was replaced by Jozo Leotar.

 7        Q.   Could you please repeat Mr. Leotar's first name?

 8        A.   Jozo Leotar.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, in the summer of 1991 was a

10     group established at the level of the town SUP of Sarajevo, and if so,

11     what did they do and what was your role within that context?

12        A.   As co-ordinator in terms of property-related crime, in the town

13     SUP we received information about all crimes committed in the territory

14     of the town of Sarajevo.  Our role was to follow the crime situation, and

15     when we would notice certain trends or a large number of unresolved cases

16     from a particular field, then we established operative groups consisting

17     of operatives from public security stations and then these groups

18     resolved those crimes.

19             Throughout 1991, there was a major escalation in the commission

20     of crime in the territory of the town of Sarajevo, and on certain days

21     even up to 500 crimes would be committed by unknown perpetrators.  For

22     the most part, this was break and entry related to apartments, cars,

23     department stores, kiosks, theft of vehicles.  And in the general crime

24     department in the town SUP, our assessment was that operative groups that

25     can operate in the territory of the entire town would be far more

Page 22197

 1     efficient in combatting groups of criminals.

 2             Already in the summer of 1991 from all public security stations

 3     that were in the territory of the town provided their best policemen or

 4     inspectors and we set out, all of this with a view to solving as many

 5     cases as possible and to make it possible for citizens to live the most

 6     normal life possible.

 7        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, just tell us something, you mentioned this general

 8     crime service, as you call it.  What does that mean actually?  What

 9     crimes do they work on, or at least did they work on in 1991?

10        A.   The general crime service dealt with investigating and

11     documenting crimes of a classical nature, as it were.  That is to say,

12     robbery, aggravated robbery; at any rate, crimes that belonged to the

13     field of property-related crime.  At this point -- at this point, I would

14     like to clarify something.  Public security stations that were within the

15     town SUP worked only on resolving crimes that were dealt with by basic

16     courts.

17        Q.   When you say basic courts and their jurisdiction, does that mean

18     that public security stations dealt with less serious crimes, if I can

19     put it that way, or not?

20        A.   Yes, precisely.  That's what it means.  Public security stations

21     dealt with crimes that were less serious, although if a more serious

22     crime were committed in the territory of a particular police station,

23     then members of the crime police of that station provided all possible

24     assistance to the members of the centre for public security services of

25     Sarajevo.

Page 22198

 1        Q.   Does that mean, Mr. Tusevljak, in order to clarify the matter, if

 2     a more serious crime is committed, the investigation of that particular

 3     crime would fall under the CSB, the Security Services Centre; is that

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   However, since that serious crime was committed in that

 7     particular territory, then members of the public security station would

 8     provide all a possible support, logistical support, and any other support

 9     to the members of the CSB who were in charge of these more serious

10     crimes; right?

11        A.   Yes, absolutely.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Tusevljak, in your view, what was the key problem

13     in 1991 in terms of so many crimes not being solved?

14        A.   I think that the basic problem was the fact that in 1992 there

15     was already a disruption --

16        Q.   Sorry, I asked you about 1991.

17        A.   In 1991, there were already certain upheavals in the territory of

18     the former Yugoslavia.  The war in Croatia was well underway, and in the

19     Ministry of the Interior, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also in

20     the CSB Sarajevo there were more and more people who did not really have

21     anything to do with police work up until then.  There were more and more

22     people coming in who were employed in the police, but were not involved

23     in police work at all, or were totally unfamiliar with the town of

24     Sarajevo.

25        Q.   Was that one of the reasons why this group was established, the

Page 22199

 1     one that you co-ordinated at the level of the town SUP of Sarajevo?

 2        A.   One of the main reasons was our wish to show all public security

 3     stations that they could work on solving crimes.  And through this

 4     operative group, we tried to force them, as well, to work more in their

 5     respective areas.

 6        Q.   What kind of results were achieved by this operative group of

 7     yours during the course of 1991?

 8        A.   Well, I think we had excellent results, above average at that,

 9     because I remember that it was only in November 1991 that we had 100

10     cases that involved detention.

11        Q.   When you say cases that involved detention, what do you mean?  Do

12     you mean that the perpetrators of the crime involved had been apprehended

13     and that they were remanded in custody?

14        A.   Yes, precisely.  We discovered the perpetrators and we filed a

15     report with the prosecutor's office and we handed him over.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, you mentioned a number of policemen who were

17     from elsewhere, who were not from Sarajevo and who were not familiar with

18     Sarajevo, where did most of these policemen come from, to the best of

19     your knowledge or in your view?

20        A.   To the best of my knowledge, 90 per cent of these persons came

21     from the territory of Sandzak in Serbia, or the north of Montenegro.

22        Q.   Since I'm not sure that the Trial Chamber is familiar with this,

23     as well as the rest, tell me, the territory of Sandzak is partly in

24     Serbia and partly in Montenegro; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 22200

 1        Q.   Tell me, what is the predominant ethnicity in Sandzak?

 2        A.   Muslim.  Bosniak nowadays, they've changed their name.

 3        Q.   These persons that you spoke about that were employed in the

 4     police force and were not familiar with the town of Sarajevo, were they

 5     ethnic Muslims, or rather, ethnic Bosniaks?

 6        A.   One hundred per cent Bosniak ethnicity.

 7        Q.   Tell me, sir, in your opinion, did politics and policymakers

 8     interfere in the work of the Ministry of the Interior in Bosnia in 1991?

 9        A.   Well, I can speak about that from the point of view of a

10     policeman who literally worked in the street at the time.  Our problems

11     were manifested in the following:  When it was evident that certain

12     persons had committed a crime, and if we established that during the

13     course of our own work, we could not prosecute them further.

14     Unfortunately, these were ordinary criminals, but it was the very first

15     time that that kind of thing happened then.  If a person had any kind of

16     ties to a political party, a national one, if we were to bring that

17     person before the public prosecutor, very often we were not allowed to

18     take the measures that we had requested, measures that had been standard

19     procedure up until then.

20        Q.   Tell me, what measures do you have in mind?

21        A.   Well, custody, searching apartments, qualifying the crime

22     involved and so on.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, do you have any knowledge

24     regarding illegal arming in 1991 or the latter part of 1991?

25        A.   Once again, I can speak of two particular cases from my very own

Page 22201

 1     experience.

 2        Q.   Please go ahead.

 3        A.   The first question was when the traffic police stopped a vehicle

 4     which was a minivan owned by the Islamic religious community in Sarajevo.

 5     In that vehicle they found 400 sniper rifles which were travelling --

 6     which were being transported from the Zrak factory in Sarajevo which was

 7     the factory producing optical material, and they were allegedly headed to

 8     the hunting association in Citluk.

 9             Since we had an ability to monitor radio communications of our

10     police on the ground in the field, we knew right away about this.  We

11     requested that this vehicle be set aside and taken to the special unit

12     base where we wanted to check their documents.  However, by the time we

13     reached that base, the vehicle had already been released; that is to say,

14     it had been allowed to continue moving.  This had been approved by

15     somebody from the top echelons of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina; whereas

16     we were not allowed to do our work.

17        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, tell me, was it customary for weapons to be

18     transported in this way; that is to say, in a minivan owned by the

19     Islamic religious community?

20        A.   Absolutely not.  It was not possible for somebody to transport

21     400 sniper rifles allegedly intended for the hunting association.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, tell us about this second case?

23        A.   Well, the second case was about the police stopping a truck,

24     trailer truck, or rather, two trailer trucks, transporting weapons and

25     military equipment.  And this happened in Hadzici.  By the time the

Page 22202

 1     policemen of the town SUP had reached the area, one of the trailer trucks

 2     had managed to flee the location; whereas the other one, pursuant to the

 3     order of the chief of that police station, had been released because

 4     allegedly its papers were in order.

 5             I would like to tell you that the standard procedure up to 1991,

 6     as well as today, was such that all transport of weapons and ammunition

 7     had to have a proper police permit.  And the police was duty-bound in

 8     such cases to escort the vehicles with this kind of goods via its

 9     territory, precisely to prevent any possible abuse.

10        Q.   In both of these cases that you described to us, was this

11     procedure followed?

12        A.   No, because had it been followed, we wouldn't have reacted

13     because we would have had the decision of the relevant body, the body in

14     charge of these matters.  In Bosnia-Herzegovina, this is referred as

15     so-called B materiel.  The police escorted on a daily basis transport

16     carrying explosives or weapons.

17        Q.   Are you now referring to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19        A.   Yes, I'm now referring to the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

20     BH.

21        Q.   Tell me, please, was this procedure observed when, say,

22     explosives were transported for the needs of some mines in the territory

23     of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

24        A.   Yes, all transport of explosives required that this procedure be

25     observed.

Page 22203

 1        Q.   Sir, Mr. Tusevljak, was this procedure observed also when hunting

 2     weapons were transported intended for the shops selling such goods to

 3     citizens?

 4        A.   I do not really study these matters in depth.  However, in all

 5     cases involving large quantities of weapons, that is to say, not one

 6     rifle or five rifles, permits were needed and there needed to be police

 7     escort for such transport.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Tusevljak.  Now, let us move to another topic.  In

 9     the night before the 3rd and 4th of April in 1992 in Sarajevo, where were

10     you and what was your position at the time?

11        A.   At that time I was -- I still occupied my position in the town

12     SUP of Sarajevo performing the same type of work.  However, at that point

13     in time we received an order from the chief of sector Jozo Leotar that we

14     had to have our own separate duty service.  And this duty service of

15     operatives was supposed to convey to us all information about the events

16     taking place in the territory of the ten Sarajevo municipalities.

17        Q.   Just a question:  What was the ethnicity of Mr. Jozo Leotar, your

18     immediate superior?

19        A.   He was an ethnic Croat.

20        Q.   Can you tell us what did you observe -- or, rather, were you on

21     duty that night?

22        A.   In addition to this duty service, we also had a mandatory task to

23     tour, to patrol the town in our vehicles, as did the police stations in

24     our -- under our jurisdiction, in our territory.  This was already April,

25     and as is well known, on the 30th of March a member of the Serbian

Page 22204

 1     wedding party was killed in Bascarsija.  Barricades had already been

 2     erected around Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   I apologise, but this murder took place on the 29th of February

 4     or the 1st of March.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm just trying to refresh the memory of the

 6     witness.  I mean, this is not disputed.

 7             MS. KORNER:  No, it's not disputed, but if he wrongly links

 8     things, that may be relevant and he oughtn't be told when things

 9     happened.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Please go ahead, sir, and answer the question.

12        A.   Since it's been so many years and I'm still in the police

13     business and I was involved in many events, as I still am today, I

14     apologise for occasionally making a mistake when it comes to certain

15     dates or days in the week.  However, the killing of the member of the

16     wedding party and the barricades is something that indeed took place in

17     Sarajevo.  Following these events, and once the law and order were

18     seriously disturbed and various crimes committed, from murder to

19     robberies and burglaries, the state of alert was raised in the town SUP

20     and it required us to do this kind of work.

21        Q.   Perhaps it was my mistake since I pin-pointed the date.  Please

22     tell us what you saw that night when you were on duty service and

23     patrolled the town of Sarajevo?

24        A.   What we saw was that around all police stations there were armed

25     civilians and that they literally controlled -- had the ability to

Page 22205

 1     prevent anyone from going in or coming out of the police station.  They

 2     controlled access.

 3        Q.   Did you inform your immediate superiors in the MUP about this?

 4        A.   Yes, absolutely.  Everything we observed on that night or any

 5     other night was conveyed to our immediate superiors.

 6        Q.   Do you know who Enes Bezdrob and Ismet Dahic were?

 7        A.   Enes Bezdrob was chief of the Stari Grad SJB, whereas Ismet Dahic

 8     was the police commander in that police station.

 9        Q.   As you patrolled the town on that night, did you also go to the

10     Stari Grad SJB to see Mr. Bezdrob and Mr. Dahic?  And what did you find

11     there, if so?

12        A.   When I -- the night when I went to the Stari Grad SJB was the

13     night after the killing of the member of the wedding party in Bascarsija.

14     As I have told you, whenever grave crimes were committed, our colleagues

15     from the Sarajevo SJB, or rather, from the Sarajevo CSB would engage us,

16     would involve us in resolving these crimes together with them.  They did

17     so because the town SUP -- in our department, we also had the search and

18     tracing department.

19             So that same night, some two hours after the killing, together

20     with several of police officers, whom I managed to reach because I think

21     it was a Sunday, I started working on resolving this crime.  Very

22     quickly, we managed to find out who the perpetrators were, and we also

23     received intelligence to the effect of where they were hiding.  I think

24     that from today's point of view -- I mean, looking at it now, I think our

25     only mistake was that we informed about this the people who were above

Page 22206

 1     us, who were our superiors, and had already been deeply involved in some

 2     other business in addition to their regular police duties.

 3        Q.   Sir, just a minute, please.  My specific question was:  Did you

 4     go to see Mr. Bezdrob and Mr. Dahic that night, and what did you find

 5     upon going there?  Would you please answer that question.

 6        A.   When we got to the Stari Grad police station, it had been blocked

 7     by a taxi vehicle, so we were unable to approach it.  We asked why the

 8     police station had been blocked, and two or three minutes later, the

 9     vehicles dispersed.  When we went into the office of these gentlemen, it

10     was the first time that I saw a radio -- a radio station that didn't

11     belong to members of the Ministry of the Interior, and there was intense

12     communication on this radio between members of the Patriotic League and

13     the Green Berets.  We realised that they were the ones who were

14     practically co-ordinating all these activities.

15        Q.   Tell me, when you say it was a radio station, what sort of radio

16     station was used by the MUP of the Socialist Republic of BH, and what was

17     the radio station that you saw in that evening in the office of

18     Enes Bezdrob and Ismet Dahic?

19        A.   The MUP of Republika Srpska had Motorolas.

20        Q.   I didn't ask you about the MUP of Republika Srpska.  I asked you

21     about the MUP of the Socialist Republic of B&H.

22        A.   I apologise, it was a slip of the tongue.  The MUP of the

23     Socialist Republic of B&H had standard Motorolas and this was an

24     Alinco-make radio station.  I remember that because sometime after that

25     I, myself, had such a radio station.

Page 22207

 1        Q.   When you say "after that," was that during your employment in the

 2     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or after that?

 3        A.   After that when I was employed in the RS MUP.

 4        Q.   Sir, do you remember when the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina split up?

 6        A.   The MUP split up sometime in early April of 1992.

 7        Q.   Who informed you that the MUP had been divided?

 8        A.   As far as I can recall, I believe that it was my direct superior,

 9     Goran Macar, who informed me.

10        Q.   What instructions did you receive from your immediate superior,

11     Goran Macar?

12        A.   We were told to continue going to work at the Sarajevo town SUP,

13     to continue working, and that we would later see -- it would later turn

14     out what this split would eventually look like.

15             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Tusevljak, I was waiting for your explanation

16     to something that you said a while ago in response to a question put to

17     you by Counsel Zecevic.  Namely, that you thought that the only mistake

18     that you had made was to report the events after the killing in

19     Bascarsija to your superiors.  Do you recall saying that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Could you explain what you mean by this?  Why was

22     it a mistake to report this to your superiors?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time in the CSB, the

24     department chiefs in the CSB were my superiors at the time.  Had we, the

25     operatives who found out where these people were, gone and arrested them,

Page 22208

 1     some things might have evolved differently in Sarajevo.  However, when I

 2     got to the Stari Grad police station, from the CSB to the police station,

 3     I could see that all the streets had been blocked.  I went into the

 4     police station and then I realised - this was a multi-ethnic group that I

 5     was with -- I realised that we would never get to these perpetrators and

 6     that all the waiting that we had to endure before we actually went into

 7     action was just in order to hide the perpetrators.

 8             I know I was right then because I saw a television programme and

 9     I saw it Ramiz Delalic, Celo, who talked about this in 1993, and he

10     bragged about the fact that it was the police who let him and his

11     co-perpetrators out of Sarajevo.  Unfortunately, already then, some of us

12     were doing the police work professionally and some other people were

13     engaged in other things.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  May I remind you again to be as brief

15     as you can in your responses.

16             Just for clarification, do you mean to say that some of your

17     superiors tipped off the perpetrators after you had informed them of what

18     had happened and thus the perpetrators were able to disappear?  Is that

19     what you said?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about this one specific

21     case, and it's obvious that somebody in the chain of command failed.

22             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

23             Back to you, Mr. Zecevic.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, just a few questions.  On page 24, you said, "At

Page 22209

 1     that time in the CSB, my superiors in the CSB," as far as I understood

 2     you at that time in 1992, in early 1992, you worked in the town SUP.  So

 3     tell us, please, whether this was the town SUP or the CSB?

 4        A.   If we operatives from the town SUP assisted in discovering

 5     crimes, if we assisted operatives from the CSB and if they were

 6     hierarchically above us, then they were the ones who managed both me or

 7     my operatives and not somebody from the town SUP.

 8        Q.   Does that mean that when you say that there was some problems

 9     with command and that information regarding the perpetrators leaked out,

10     that this went along this line of hierarchy according to which you were

11     involved in these tasks?

12        A.   Yes, absolutely.

13        Q.   Sir, in early April where was your office located, in which

14     building?

15        A.   In the building of the Sarajevo town SUP on the fourth floor.  In

16     August Cesarac Street, I don't know what the name of the street is today.

17     This now houses the cantonal SUP of Sarajevo.

18        Q.   After your immediate superior Mr. Goran Macar informed you that

19     MUP had been divided and that you were to continue working until the

20     split is finalised structurally, did you continue with your work and your

21     duties as you would normally?

22        A.   Yes, as long as that was possible.

23        Q.   [No interpretation]

24             JUDGE HALL:  If you are moving on to something else, this would

25     be --

Page 22210

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  I just have one question, Your Honour, then I would

 2     be moving to something else, if I may.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, which was the last day that you spent in that

 6     building of the town SUP?

 7        A.   I believe it was a Friday or a Saturday.  I can't recall

 8     precisely, but it was in early April.  3rd -- the night between the

 9     3rd -- the night between the 3rd and the 4th or the 4th and the 5th, I'm

10     not really sure, but I know it was the end of the week.

11             JUDGE HALL:  So we take our first break for the day.  We would

12     resume in 20 minutes.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, Your Honours, while the witness is

17     ushered in, I'm afraid I'm not going to make things easier.  When I was

18     citing the pending motion, I forgot one, and that is our motion for

19     adjudicated fact, which -- adjudicated facts, which is also, I think,

20     important for us to have before the last witness.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

22             And we appreciate counsel's indulgence for the extended break but

23     we communicated the reasons through our Legal Officer.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We, while the witness is ushered in, ask OTP and

25     the Zupljanin Defence about their estimates on the witness Macar, is that

Page 22211

 1     the name, Zecevic, your last one?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Macar.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Goran Macar.  Can you assist us with that,

 4     Ms. Korner?

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             MS. KORNER:  Yes, Your Honours, it's difficult with all these

 7     witnesses because what is on the 65 ter is never what comes out.  Twenty

 8     hours is the estimate for the Defence.  I would estimate probably not at

 9     much, but it's difficult to say how long, as I say, until we have a clear

10     idea, particularly of documents that he is going to be taken through.

11     But I'd say roughly in the region of between three and 4 days, so about

12     16 hours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Aleksic?

14             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again, for the take

15     sake of caution, I will say no more than three hours.  We may not need

16     any time at all, but just for the sake of caution.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  May I continue, Your Honours?  Thank you very much.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, before we continue discussing the

20     details of what happened later, you mentioned that the chief of the

21     sector at the town SUP was Mr. Goran Macar, how many operatives, how many

22     inspectors were in that sector in 1991?

23        A.   I am sorry, Goran Macar was the chief of the department, not the

24     chief of the sector.  Mr. Jozo Leotar was the chief of the sector.  As

25     for our department, I'll just need a minute to think about it.  I think

Page 22212

 1     about eight inspectors.

 2        Q.   What was the ethnic composition of these inspectors, was it

 3     mixed?

 4        A.   Yes, there were all ethnicities.

 5        Q.   When the chief of the department, Mr. Goran Macar, informed you

 6     about the division of the MUP and, as you said, he instructed you to

 7     continue working as you had before, did Mr. Macar inform only you or all

 8     the employees in the department?

 9        A.   Everybody in the department knew that the MUP would be divided

10     and we even joked about that.  We joked about who would get which table

11     and how we would cut up the tables.  There was no bad feelings among us

12     who were working there.

13        Q.   Another small digression before we get back to the events of

14     April 1992, tell me, in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of B&H,

15     technical equipment and materiel needed for the work of the MUP, was this

16     equipment and materiel stored in a central location?

17        A.   I believe -- I believe that this was because I knew about one

18     such warehouse.  The police stations had only what they needed for their

19     day-to-day work in the police stations themselves.

20        Q.   Which warehouse did you know about, which central warehouse of

21     the MUP did you know about?

22        A.   This is a warehouse that I never visited.  It was somewhere

23     towards Rakovica in a place called Duboki Potok or something like that,

24     and that's where most of the equipment of the Republican MUP was located.

25        Q.   Do you know about a MUP facility called Zlatiste, and what do you

Page 22213

 1     know about it?

 2        A.   I do know about the facility.  I know where it was located, but I

 3     think it was a facility of the state security service, and we from public

 4     security station didn't have access to that a facility and to similar

 5     ones.

 6        Q.   Please have a look at document 140, that is 65 ter 757D1.  Sir,

 7     the date of this document is the 3rd of July, 1991.  It says the

 8     Ministry of the Interior, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 9     Sarajevo.  It is addressed to the administration for financial matters

10     and tasks.  The subject is "order to relocate weapons and ammunition,"

11     and it is signed by Mesud Omerspahic.  Tell me, did you know

12     Mr. Omerspahic or have you heard of him, Mr. Mesud Omerspahic?

13        A.   I did not know him personally except for the fact that through

14     all this paperwork we knew that he was the head of office, the Chef de

15     Cabinet, of Alija Delimustafic, the then minister of the interior.

16        Q.   In this document, it is stated that upon an order of the minister

17     MUP weapons and ammunition stored at the Rakovica facility has to be

18     relocated forthwith to the Zlatiste facility, and protection and secrecy

19     must be ensured in the implementation of this task.  Did you know about

20     that in 1991, that ammunition and weapons from the Rakovica facility was

21     relocated to the Zlatiste facility?

22        A.   No, I didn't know about that.

23        Q.   Tell me, the Rakovica facility, did it belong to the public

24     security service or the state security?

25        A.   To the best of my knowledge, it belonged to the public security

Page 22214

 1     service.  It was our property.

 2        Q.   And what about this facility Zlatiste, was that a facility with

 3     limited access?

 4        A.   Yes, it was a facility that was completely sealed off and, as

 5     I've already said, we had no access.

 6        Q.   What service did it belong to, this facility?

 7        A.   The state security service.

 8        Q.   Do you remember who was the chief of service of the state

 9     security service at that time in 1991?

10        A.   I cannot recall exactly.  I think it was Vesic or someone, I

11     don't know.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, for the sake of clarity, I would like

14     to ask this document to be MFI'd.

15             MS. KORNER:  On what basis?  The witness says nothing about it.

16     I am assuming he hasn't been asked, but he hasn't seen the document

17     before.  We don't know where the document comes from.  I'm not at all

18     clear on the basis on which it can be MFI'd.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner has asked the question I was just about

20     to ask, Mr. Zecevic.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, perhaps the witness can take

22     the -- his headphones off.

23             Your Honours, the witness testified that he had knowledge of

24     these two facilities.  The provenance of the document is RS MUP, and we

25     provided the Office of the Prosecutor with the list of all the documents

Page 22215

 1     we received from them.  Now, the -- I agree that the witness does not

 2     know about the document and haven't seen it before, and he is not aware

 3     of the fact.  But I would like to -- that is precisely why I ask that

 4     this document be MFI'd because the witness was talking about it -- was

 5     talking about these two facilities, and that's the main point which I'm

 6     trying to establish; namely, that on the order of the Ministry of the

 7     Interior, the ammunition and the arms have been moved from the official

 8     storage into secret other place owned by the state security and that this

 9     was a secret operation.  And that is precisely why I think it's important

10     for the context of the events that unfolded in the beginning of 1992.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no

12     evidence at all of this movement, nor the relevance to anything.  And we

13     say at the moment there's no basis at all for this document even being

14     marked MFI.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, MFI pending what?

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, just because I've shown this

17     document to the witness and he commented on it --

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But what would allow us to lift, at any

19     point, the --

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, perhaps I will show it to another witness who

21     might be able to recognise the document, so just for the sake of the

22     transcript that these two documents -- that the comments of this witness

23     and, perhaps, another witness will be brought in connection.  That is the

24     only reason I --

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So pending the showing -- pending the testimony

Page 22216

 1     of --

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Pending showing it to another witness or bar table

 3     motion, yes.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  On the expectation, Mr. Zecevic, that you are able

 6     to show a nexus between this document and another witness, it will be

 7     marked for identification.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D573, marked for identification,

10     Your Honours.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, you told us that your last day was Friday or

13     Saturday, sometime in the beginning of April.  Tell me, at the time were

14     you carrying out any preparations for transferring to the MUP of

15     Republika Srpska?

16        A.   No, no.  We were not carrying out any kind of preparations.  I

17     lived in Nedzarici.  The population is mostly ethnic Serbs.  And, as I

18     said, I went home from work.  I can support that with the following:  All

19     my personal belongings, my graduate records from university, all my other

20     personal belongings, all of that remained in my office.

21        Q.   You said that you went home to Nedzarici.  Tell me, where is

22     Nedzarici, is that part of Sarajevo?

23        A.   Yes, that is part of Sarajevo and it's between the airport of

24     Sarajevo and Dobrinja and Alipasino Polje.

25        Q.   Tell me, which public security station does Nedzarici belong to

Page 22217

 1     from a territorial point of view, at that time that is?

 2        A.   To the public security station of Novi Grad in Sarajevo,

 3     territorially speaking.

 4        Q.   All right.  Tell us what happened after you returned home from

 5     work on that Friday or Saturday.

 6        A.   That evening, when I came home from work, attacks had already

 7     started against all police stations in Sarajevo.  These attacks were

 8     being carried out by the Green Berets and the Patriotic League.  I and a

 9     colleague of mine were assigned to tour those police stations that

10     evening, and as I've already said, they were -- there were many members

11     of the Green Berets and Patriotic League around at the time, for the time

12     being -- I mean, at that time, they were still considered to be

13     civilians, armed civilians, who surrounded the police stations.  And very

14     soon we found out that a policeman had been killed at the police station

15     of Novo Sarajevo.

16        Q.   Tell me, which policeman was killed?

17        A.   Pero Petrovic was the policeman killed.  He was a member of the

18     police station for training dogs and horses.  That police station was

19     also under the SUP of Sarajevo, the town SUP of Sarajevo.  According to

20     what we knew then - and now I can speak about what I learned subsequently

21     as well because in my work we did investigate that particular crime -

22     this policeman caught a person who was breaking into the privately-owned

23     vehicle of a neighbour of his who was a Bosniak, and they went together

24     to hand that person over to the police station of Novo Sarajevo, because

25     this policeman had lived in the territory of the municipality of

Page 22218

 1     Novo Sarajevo.  And he acted in accordance with regulations.

 2             However, what happened was that once they arrived at that police

 3     station, a colleague of his who was the duty policeman stopped him and

 4     asked him to have a cup of coffee together with him.  He stayed for that

 5     cup of coffee.  However, at that moment, the Green Berets barged into

 6     that police station, or members of the Patriotic League.  They took the

 7     shift leader prisoner and also this policeman who was wearing civilian

 8     clothes.  They took him to the basement.  And when they asked him what

 9     his name was, he said Pero Petrovic - otherwise, Pero Petrovic is a

10     symbolic name for Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina - and one of these

11     Green Berets simply shot him dead.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, on the next day, did you go to work?  Did you

13     manage to go to work?

14        A.   No.  That had already turned into mission impossible because the

15     town of Sarajevo was blockaded, there were roadblocks in the streets yet

16     again, and, quite simply, I could not leave my neighbourhood anymore.  I

17     could not enter the territory that was under the control of the

18     Green Berets and the Patriotic League.

19        Q.   Could you please have a look at document P986, which is tab 148.

20     I don't know if you have it, but it is going to show up on the screen.

21     That is a map of the town of Sarajevo.  I'm sure that you are going to

22     get a clearer picture on the screen.

23             Sir, I don't know whether you will be able to but I would kindly

24     ask you to mark the headquarters of the town SUP where your office was at

25     the time.  The usher will give you a pen.  He will assist us kindly.  And

Page 22219

 1     could you please put a circle around Nedzarici.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Your Honours, I didn't hear your suggestion.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  My suggestion was to have the Registrar enlarge

 4     the map a bit, otherwise the witness will be unable to find the exact

 5     spot on the map.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please wait, Mr. Tusevljak, we need to zoom in.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] The middle area of the map, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's fine.

10             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is this all right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] No, no need for that.  The previous

14     one was fine. [In English] Can we have the map enlarged again, just once.

15     Okay.  That's enough.  Thank you very much.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Tusevljak, would you please mark with

17     an X the headquarters of the town MUP and put number 1 next to it.

18        A.   I apologise, I first marked Nedzarici.

19        Q.   All right.  Then put number 1 there.  Now, would you please mark

20     roughly where the town SUP was?

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Put a 2 there.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Now that we are dealing with this map, would you please show

25     us -- or, rather, tell us, did you, and if so when, go to the school in

Page 22220

 1     Vrace after these events?

 2        A.   Since I found out that the headquarters of the Serbian Ministry

 3     of the Interior was in Vrace, I went perhaps on the 7th or 8th of April,

 4     1992, to see what was happening and what was going on with us.

 5        Q.   Would you please mark with an X the school in Vrace and put a 3

 6     there.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Sir, what was the situation like when you arrived in the school

 9     at Vrace?

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I need the witness to mark another

11     location.  So we can keep it like this until he marks another location

12     and then we'll save it, or maybe we save it now and then ... okay.  Thank

13     you very much.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak, tell me, please, when you arrived

15     in Vrace, what did you find there?  What was the situation like?  What

16     was the general situation like at that moment?

17        A.   It was chaotic for the simple reason that on that occasion at the

18     school I met only one operative whom I knew who worked at the SJB

19     Novo Sarajevo, and who basically was lost himself.  He didn't know what

20     we needed to do.  I think that in passing I also saw

21     Mr. Dobro Planojevic, who at the time was the commander of the Centar

22     police station, who had come with some of his policemen.

23             I returned to Nedzarici and reported to the reserve police

24     station, which was located in that neighbourhood, and I put myself at

25     their disposal there.

Page 22221

 1        Q.   Was there a conflict on at the time in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Yes, there had already been clashes, both in Vrace and elsewhere

 3     in town.  There were clashes between the Territorial Defence of

 4     Republika Srpska and the Territorial Defence of the then Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Tell me, please, when did you return to Vrace again, if you can

 7     remember?

 8        A.   Some two or three days later, perhaps.  I came again because it

 9     was still possible to pass by the Sarajevo airport, so I could reach the

10     area, but I also wanted to see what needed to be done, where would I

11     work, what would I do, and so on.

12        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Could you please mark on this document the airport and put an X

17     and number 4 there.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.  What happened upon your second return it to Vrace?

20     Were you given an assignment?

21        A.   No, somebody from the then leadership told me to stay in

22     Nedzarici.  I think that I also received an appointment letter or

23     something to that effect appointing me head of police in Nedzarici.  That

24     police station in Nedzarici never had the crime police before.

25        Q.   And what did you do then?

Page 22222

 1        A.   In the following month, or perhaps a bit after that, I stayed in

 2     Nedzarici.  I would occasionally come to Vrace whenever it was possible

 3     to pass through the Sarajevo airport.  The Ministry of the Interior of

 4     Republika Srpska was already being established.  Dobro Planojevic became

 5     chief of the crime police administration, and I was again given the role

 6     of a co-ordinator for the town of Sarajevo within the crime police.

 7     However, that role mostly involved me trying to find out where the

 8     operatives who had already left the town of Sarajevo were.  Many of them

 9     were blocked, basically, blocked somewhere in town.  And in the territory

10     of Republika Srpska, there were mostly operatives who had their houses

11     there and we also had available to us those who had managed to flee to

12     Pale and to some other areas that were under the control of

13     Republika Srpska.

14             We started drawing up lists of those people --

15        Q.   Just a minute, please.

16             MR. ZECEVIC [Interpretation] Unless there are objections, I would

17     tender this document marked by the witness.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D574, Your Honours.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let me show you tab 149 which is 65 ter 7D1.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's 65 ter 7D1.  0007D1.  If we

23     can get the Serbian version as well, please.

24        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, this document is dated 15th of May, 1992.  It says

25     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior,

Page 22223

 1     Sarajevo.  And it's entitled "List of the Operatives in the Territory of

 2     Sarajevo."  And underneath that we see Tusevljak, Simo, co-ordinator for

 3     the town of Sarajevo.  Can you please explain to us what this document

 4     means, what it is about, and what does it mean that you were the

 5     co-ordinator for the town of Sarajevo?

 6        A.   That's precisely what I told you.  My task was to locate these

 7     operatives who had left the town.  And based on the location where we

 8     found them, we were coming up with tasks and duties for them in that

 9     area.  That was one task that needed to be done.  The other thing was

10     that these people had literally fled the town in their slippers.  I had

11     to inform Dobro Planojevic about how many operatives had left the

12     territory of Sarajevo and were now in the territory of Republika Srpska.

13        Q.   What kind of operatives are we talking about here?

14        A.   These are the operatives of the crime police who used to work in

15     the territory of Sarajevo.  They worked on general crime, white-collar

16     crime cases, forensics, and counter-sabotage protection.  You can also

17     see here that out of ten police stations that used to exist in town, we

18     have only five represented on this list.

19        Q.   Does this list pertain to all operatives of the crime police

20     whose whereabouts you knew -- rather, you knew that they had left the

21     town of Sarajevo and these were the people that you could count on to

22     become the members of the MUP of Republika Srpska?

23        A.   Well, this list was drawn up based on the locations from which

24     these operatives reported.

25        Q.   To clarify this - did I understand you well - these are the

Page 22224

 1     persons who left the town of Sarajevo, they reported to some SJBs, and

 2     then these SJBs, in turn, informed you that these persons had reported

 3     that they had left Sarajevo.  Did I understand you well?

 4        A.   Yes, but at the time the phones were not working so we, as

 5     operatives, communicated among ourselves.

 6        Q.   Sir, you have to be -- you have to make a break between my

 7     question and your answer because a large portion of your answer was not

 8     recorded.  This is why I had to go back and ask you again.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, obviously Mr. Zecevic heard me

10     say, Where did he say that?  Because it wasn't apparent.  But I really

11     think the proper way of dealing with this is if a part of the answer is

12     being -- not Mr. Zecevic to clarify, but to do as he has normally done,

13     which is to ask him to repeat the answer.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I wasn't aware that it wasn't recorded.

15     Ms. Korner, only when you made a comment it became apparent to me that it

16     wasn't recorded.  Because I tried to stop the witness before giving an

17     answer so he doesn't -- so he doesn't speed up.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, could you please explain to us what this

19     list is about again, please?

20        A.   This is the list of operatives who used to work in the territory

21     of Sarajevo who had left the area which was under the control of the

22     Territorial Defence of Republika Srpska and then reported to some police

23     stations or reserve police stations and placed themselves at their

24     disposal; that is to say, they wanted to become members of the MUP of

25     Republika Srpska.  Among these persons, there were also people with whom

Page 22225

 1     I spoke on the phone, explaining to them that they could sign up to be

 2     placed at the disposal of the MUP of Republika Srpska.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Since there are no objections, I

 4     would like to tender this document.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  What is the relevance, Mr. Zecevic?

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  The relevance, is, Your Honours, the number of

 8     policemen available at that point in the MUP of Republika Srpska.  The

 9     criminal police inspectors.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But it doesn't really say that, does it?

11             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, we don't object.  We don't agree

12     that's a proper reading, and I'm going to re-examine -- re-examine,

13     cross-examine on it.  So we don't object to it being marked.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  As far as I have understood the witness, this

15     list shows the names of some of the policemen who fled the city of

16     Sarajevo after the attacks, and so the witness tried to get hold of them

17     again, and so what?

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well perhaps the witness can take his phones off

19     again so I will explain.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Witness, could you take off your headphones.

21     Thank you.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the point is the following:  The

23     witness came to Vrace.  He was given a task to be a co-ordinator for the

24     city of Sarajevo concerning the criminal police.  Now, he is trying to

25     gather all operatives from the criminal police available at the moment,

Page 22226

 1     which is mid-May, and that is the list of all the people who were

 2     operatives of the criminal police which were available to the MUP of

 3     Republika Srpska in Sarajevo at that point.  I think that's very

 4     relevant.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D575, Your Honours.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, apart from the people listed on this document,

 9     were there other operatives from the crime police who were available to

10     you for work in the RS MUP in the territory of Sarajevo?

11        A.   No.  This is the list that we made at the time for the town of

12     Sarajevo.  There were many more operatives in the town of Sarajevo who

13     were unable to leave the town or who didn't report to the RS MUP.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, how long were you a co-ordinator for the town of

15     Sarajevo, for the crime police?

16        A.   I believe until I became chief of the crime police department of

17     the then Romanija-Birac Security Services Centre because the town SUP no

18     longer existed in the RS MUP.

19        Q.   Tell me, when you say Romanija-Birac CSB, are you referring to

20     the CSB that was sometimes also called the Sarajevo CSB?

21        A.   Well, when the Serbian autonomous regions were created, the

22     Romanija-Birac centre was sometimes called the Sarajevo centre.

23        Q.   Sir, when were you appointed, if you remember, chief of the crime

24     police department in the Sarajevo CSB, Romanija-Birac, that is?

25        A.   I believe that was in June.  I don't have that letter of

Page 22227

 1     appointment so I can't be precise.

 2        Q.   Was anybody in that function before you, and if so, who was it?

 3        A.   I believe that Nikola Milanovic was in that function for a while

 4     but I don't know whether he had an actual letter of appointment.

 5        Q.   And where was the seat of the Romanija-Birac Sarajevo CSB at the

 6     time?

 7        A.   Initially, it was housed in the school in Vrace for a very short

 8     time, and then later on, sometime in July, it was Energoinvest in

 9     Lukavica.

10        Q.   Is that the building --

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D574

12     again, please.

13        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone.

16             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's tab 148.  And the original

17     document is 5986, but could we get 574, that's the map that the witness

18     marked.  He marked certain locations in Sarajevo.

19        Q.   Sir, could you mark for us on this map, with a cross and the

20     number 5, the building of Energoinvest in Lukavica where the CSB was

21     located from July of 1992, please?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure whether

25     we can record this exhibit under the same number or under an additional

Page 22228

 1     number.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  So it has the same number.  I understand technically

 3     there's no difficulty.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 5             I see the time, Your Honours, I don't know whether we are taking

 6     the break now.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  [Microphone not activated] ... If this is a

 8     convenient point, Mr. Zecevic.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, it is.  Yes.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

13             JUDGE HALL:  While the witness is on his way back in, returning

14     to a matter that was raised at the beginning of today's sitting, and that

15     is the Stanisic motion to add 41 documents to the 65 ter list.  Bearing

16     in mind the distinction between the addition of documents to the 65 ter

17     list and their admission, we would wish the Prosecution to respond to the

18     question of addition by tomorrow afternoon, and, of course, admission

19     would fall to be decided as and when the applications arise.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I appreciate that, but I would

22     say that it's somewhat unequal in arms.  If Your Honour will recall the

23     number of times we had to apply formally to add documents to our 65 ter

24     list, and were given -- and the Defence was given the time to respond.

25     There are 41 documents.  As far as I can tell, most of the documents on

Page 22229

 1     the recent one are to do with this -- or their attempt is to get them in

 2     with this witness, as I said, we'll see where we are at the end of the

 3     day.  I would respectfully ask that that matter be left until such time

 4     as we've seen where we go with this witness.  I mean, tomorrow afternoon

 5     when it was filed yesterday afternoon is, with the greatest of respect,

 6     we would suggest, slightly unfair.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  We are losing sight of the fact that the admission

 8     of these documents would still have to be decided.  It's the --

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes, but they haven't even got -- sorry.

10             JUDGE HALL:  It's the preliminary, if I may call it that,

11     question of their being added to the 65 ter list at this stage, and it is

12     only that first step that we are asking for this expedited response.

13             MS. KORNER:  Yes, but, Your Honour, the fact is they have gone

14     half, 50 per cent, of the way through to getting them in by getting them

15     on the 65 ter list.  Most of these documents, I must say really fairly

16     quickly, have been available to the Defence forever and ever.  They say

17     they've only just dug them out of EDS recently, which I am not going to

18     go into at the moment.  But we say it's unfair to only give us only

19     effectively 48 hours to respond when we are entitled to 14 days and -

20     just a moment, please, Mr. Zecevic - some of them are not even

21     translated, so we have no idea what is in them.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours, the documents which we offered

24     by the motion are not the documents we found on the EDS exclusively.

25     There is -- if Your Honours will remember, there has been 130 documents

Page 22230

 1     which have been disclosed to us for the very first time signed by our

 2     client by the Office of the Prosecutor, and some of them are in the --

 3     this motion.  Therefore, it is not entirely our fault.  And first and

 4     foremost, we have heard a number of times that Office of the Prosecutor

 5     was saying that there has been problems with the search engines.  Well,

 6     as they have problems with the search engines, so do we.  And this is the

 7     EDS and there's nothing we can do about it.  Once the document will

 8     appear; on the other occasion, they will not appear.  That is just beyond

 9     either of the parties.  That's one thing.

10             The second thing:  Your Honour will remember that at least on 15

11     occasions during the Prosecutor's case, there has been a request for the

12     expedited response by the Trial Chamber, and in all of these -- on each

13     and every one of these occasions we accepted and gave our expedited

14     response because we understood the reasons why it was requested from us.

15     Therefore, I think there has been no inequality of arms in this case.

16     Thank you.

17             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm not saying we want the 14 days.

18     I'm simply saying that tomorrow afternoon is just too short a period for

19     us to -- and particularly, as I say, as we don't have translations for

20     some of these documents.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, the ones that are not translated, that's

22     then a wholly different category, and we take your point there.

23             MS. KORNER:  I'm told - Mr. Smith is going to give me

24     information - of the 41 documents, 19 have no translations.

25             JUDGE HALL:  So could we expect your response in respect of the

Page 22231

 1     41 minus 19?

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, can I -- at the moment,

 3     obviously, I'm here.  And can I come back to you tomorrow if we have a

 4     problem?  Otherwise we'll obviously see what we can do.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  We would be grateful for your co-operation,

 6     Ms. Korner.

 7             Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may be of assistance, Your Honours, we are

 9     notified by VWS that 14 of these documents will be -- CLSS, I'm sorry.

10     CLSS.  That 14 of these documents have been translated and will be

11     uploaded in the morning.  So that means that only five are still pending

12     translation.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Zecevic, as you continue, I would need five minutes before we

15     rise for the day, so if the witness can be excused at that point because

16     there's a ruling which has to be given in private session.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  May I continue now,

18     Your Honours?

19             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please.

20             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, I've been informed by the Registrar that you will

22     have to mark the seat of the CSB Romanija-Birac Sarajevo with the X and

23     the number 5 once again on the map because last time it wasn't recorded

24     due to electronic problems.  So if you could do that again.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 22232

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Registrar

 3     to save this document under the number that we already had, 1D574.

 4        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, when talking about the general crime department,

 5     could you explain to us what this department contains in accordance with

 6     the regulations, as a structure?

 7        A.   When talking about the general crime department only, it contains

 8     operative groups that investigate crimes in the field of classical

 9     crimes, as it were.  That means there can be a department for

10     property-related crimes, for sexual crimes, and a department for other

11     types of crimes such as organised crime, drugs.  That is mainly what the

12     general crime department deals with.

13        Q.   Page 48, line 9, says sexual crimes.  Sexual crimes.  I believe

14     you said something else?

15        A.   For murders and sexual crimes.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Sexual and violent

17     crimes.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   As for the sector of the crime prevention administration, what is

20     in its purview?  What was in its purview according to the law and the

21     valid regulations at the time, that is in the MUP of the

22     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23        A.   Apart from the general crime department, there's also

24     white-collar crime department, forensics department, fire prevention

25     department, and counter-terrorism and counter-sabotage department.  These

Page 22233

 1     are the five basic departments.  However, the administration at the level

 2     of the ministry also had an operative department.

 3        Q.   Let us explain that.  At the level of the Security Services

 4     Centre, the sector for crime prevention, the crime prevention sector, if

 5     I calculate it correctly, it contained five different departments; is

 6     that correct?  Did I understand you correctly?

 7        A.   Yes, it should contain five different departments.

 8        Q.   And at the level of the administration or the ministry, there is

 9     an additional sixth department, and its called the operative department?

10        A.   I believe this was the case because the MUP of Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Interpreter didn't catch

13     the end of the answer.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Zecevic.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE HARHOFF:  The interpreters didn't get the last part of the

17     witness's answer.  Could you ask him to repeat.

18             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Please repeat the end of your last answer.

20        A.   At the Ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there was also a chief

21     of the operatives, so there was a department -- an operative department

22     as well.

23        Q.   Now, since we've seen that the sector of the crime prevention

24     administration at the level of the CSB and the MUP, and I'm talking about

25     the MUP of the Socialist Republic of B&H, what was the situation like at

Page 22234

 1     the level of the SJB in the crime prevention sector?

 2        A.   At the SJBs there were crime departments but there were no

 3     forensics departments.  They dealt with general crimes.

 4        Q.   So did I understand you correctly, can you confirm, at the level

 5     of the SJB in the crime prevention sector there was only one department

 6     and that was the general crime department; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   At the level of the Security Services Centre in the crime

 9     prevention administration there are five departments:  The general crime

10     department, the white-collar crime department, the forensics department,

11     the fire prevention department, and the counter-terrorism and

12     counter-sabotage department; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And at the level of the MUP, the MUP at the seat in the

15     Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, apart from these five, there

16     was an additional sixth department which was the operative department; is

17     that correct?

18        A.   Yes, I believe that was the case.

19        Q.   Very well.  Sir, when in July you were appointed chief of the

20     crime prevention administration at the Sarajevo CSB, that is

21     Romanija-Birac CSB in the Republika Srpska MUP, was the structure or the

22     internal organisation of that sector identical to the organisation that

23     existed in the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24        A.   Yes, it was a mirror image of it.

25        Q.   Does that mean that at the level of the Security Services Centre

Page 22235

 1     Sarajevo Romanija-Birac in the crime prevention sector you had these five

 2     departments that had existed previously in CSBs in the MUP of the

 3     Socialist Republic of B&H?

 4        A.   We had them at the planning level but none of them existed in the

 5     field.

 6        Q.   What is the reason for that?

 7        A.   We didn't have operatives.  We didn't have people who had the

 8     expert knowledge in order to be able to do these jobs.

 9        Q.   Sir, when you were chief of the crime prevention sector

10     administration at the level of the CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac in the RS

11     MUP, what was the total number of inspectors that you had in that sector,

12     the total number of inspectors that you had at your disposal?

13        A.   Those to whom I was immediate supervisor, well, there were only

14     three of them.

15        Q.   Can you tell us their names, if you remember?

16        A.   I think Zeljko Rakic was among them, Sasa Blagojevic and a man

17     called Pekic, I think.

18        Q.   I'll show you 1D331.  That's tab 14.  Could you take a look at

19     that document.  It's in your binder, it's tab number 14.  It says here

20     "crime prevention department" and then there are four names including

21     yours.  Are these the people who you talked about a moment ago?

22        A.   Yes, this is a payroll list.

23        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, in the crime prevention administration at the

24     Sarajevo Romanija-Birac CSB, did you have a forensics department?

25        A.   At the time I believe we had one forensics technician who had not

Page 22236

 1     done that work for a long time, Seko Niksic [phoen].

 2        Q.   So you had only one man, but what period was that?  You said at

 3     that time we had one, what period are you referring to, if you can

 4     remember?

 5        A.   I believe this was June.

 6        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, what about material required for

 7     forensics?

 8        A.   At that point in time, that is to say in May and June, we had

 9     nothing.  We tried to make due with what we had.

10        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, I understand that you are a professional

11     policeman, but you have to understand that some of us here do not know

12     what this would be, what you can make due with in terms of forensics.

13     Can you be more specific and tell us what you did have and what you did

14     not have and in which period of time and until when?

15        A.   In fact, there was a lack of all the material required for

16     forensics at the time.  There was only a photo camera that the technician

17     had, and that was absolutely insufficient.  In addition to that camera,

18     we did not have even film, and we didn't even have a lab where we could

19     develop any film.

20        Q.   And how long did that situation go on in the

21     CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac?

22        A.   All the way until the end of the summer of 1992.

23        Q.   Did the situation get any better then?

24        A.   The situation did get somewhat better but not significantly so.

25        Q.   Sir, during your interview with the Prosecution last month, I

Page 22237

 1     believe, you drew a map, and I would like to show it to you so that you

 2     can give us your comments.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It is tab 209 and the document is

 4     962D1.

 5        Q.   While we are waiting for the document, Mr. Tusevljak, tell me,

 6     please, if you can remember how many public security stations were

 7     subordinated to the CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac after it was established

 8     within the MUP of Republika Srpska?

 9        A.   There were 22 public security stations and police stations, as

10     far as I can remember.

11        Q.   Sir, do you remember this map?  The one that you see in front of

12     you now?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Tell me, the colours that we see on the map, red and green, are

15     these your inscriptions?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Tell me, what does this denote?  What is marked in red on this

18     map?  Pink.

19        A.   That's the territory that was under the control of the Army of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, rather the then Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21        Q.   What about these lines?  The ones that are marked in pink or red?

22        A.   These are the lines of separation between the Territorial Defence

23     of Republika Srpska and the Territorial Defence of the Republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina which remained more or less the same all the way up

25     until the end of the war in 1995.

Page 22238

 1        Q.   In order to make things clear for us, I would like to ask you to

 2     mark on this map some toponyms, if I can put it that way.  Can you use

 3     the letter A to mark Nedzarici?

 4        A.   Nedzarici is in this small circle here in the middle.

 5        Q.   Could you please place the letter A there.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, maybe it's better if we

 7     have the bigger -- or rather, this map but enlarged once.  Very well.

 8        Q.   Could you please mark the airport with the letter B.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   The letter C for the centre of the security services.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Now, letter D for Ilidza.  Could you mark that, please.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Now the letter E, please.  Could you mark Vogosca with the letter

15     E for me.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Sir, the airport that you marked with the letter B on this map,

18     under whose control was it in 1992?

19        A.   At the very beginning of the war, it was handed over to the

20     international force UNPROFOR, and it was under the control of

21     international forces throughout the war.  Both sides of the airport were

22     under the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as you can see here.

23        Q.   You from the CSB, or rather, from the place where the CSB

24     Sarajevo Romanija-Birac was, did you have any physical contact with

25     Nedzarici?

Page 22239

 1        A.   No, no, there was an interruption because the

 2     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina held about 3 kilometres.

 3        Q.   What about Ilidza?

 4        A.   Likewise.  It was not possible to reach it along the shortest

 5     route because --

 6        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Please answer my question.  Did you have

 7     any physical contact with Ilidza?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Did you have any physical contact?  I mean, when I say physical

10     contact, I mean direct physical contact with Vogosca?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   How far away is Ilidza, approximately, under normal conditions

13     from the place where the CSB was at that moment?

14        A.   Six to 7 kilometres.

15        Q.   What about Vogosca?

16        A.   About 15 to 20.

17        Q.   Now, sir, when you would leave the CSB in order to go to Vogosca

18     or Ilidza, how long did you have to travel?  How long was the route that

19     you had to take?

20        A.   About 150 or 160 kilometres.

21        Q.   Could you draw the route for us on this map, the route that you

22     took to Vogosca and Ilidza?

23        A.   I can do it approximately.

24        Q.   Approximately.

25        A.   Those roads are not even marked on this map.  That would be it

Page 22240

 1     roughly, the route that led to Ilidza.

 2        Q.   Tell me, why did you have to go all the way around in order to

 3     get to Ilidza and Vogosca?

 4        A.   These other roads that were closer were either under the control

 5     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or others were constantly under sniper

 6     or artillery fire from Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

 9     like to tender this document, this map.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1D576, Your Honours.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

13             JUDGE HALL:  The -- this document, I'm advised, is on -- a part

14     of the motion yesterday, so it's marked for identification at this stage.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I can say about this one we don't

16     object.  He did -- he drew this in the interview which we had with him.

17             JUDGE HALL:  So it's admitted.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, it is not yet on your list of

19     documents, is it?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I have a list of 205 tabs, and this is 209;

22     right?

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  That's correct, yes.  But I thought that --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We can handle that, Mr. Zecevic.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

Page 22241

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Tusevljak -- I am sorry.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, Your Honours, I was advised that we

 3     provided the updated list of documents yesterday or early today -- last

 4     night, yes.  And it has all 209 tabs.  I will instruct that it be again

 5     forwarded to --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll find it.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  -- the Trial Chamber.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, did you have any communication with Ilidza,

11     Vogosca, and Nedzarici?

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, [Previous translation continued] ...

13     because it's not clear from the earlier transcript.  If by "you,"

14     Mr. Zecevic really means the witness personally, or that -- the MUP at

15     the CSB because it isn't clear from the earlier answers.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, I accept that.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question for you.

18             The CSB Sarajevo Romanija-Birac, did it have any communication

19     with the public security station of Ilidza?

20        A.   No, there was that communication that I drew for you.

21        Q.   That means that the only communication -- if I understand what

22     you are saying, the only communication you had was if someone from the

23     CSB traverses 160 kilometres in order to get to Ilidza, or someone from

24     Ilidza takes the same road in order to get to the CSB.  Did I understand

25     you properly?

Page 22242

 1        A.   Yes, precisely.

 2        Q.   What was the situation with Vogosca?

 3        A.   The same, perhaps it was about 30 odd kilometres closer though.

 4        Q.   Ilijas?

 5        A.   Absolutely the same.  It's in the same area.

 6        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Tusevljak, during 1992 what was CSB Sarajevo

 7     Romanija-Birac surrounded by?  I mean the building where the CSB was.

 8        A.   Throughout 1992, and for as long as it was in Lukavica, it was

 9     under incessant artillery fire of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the

10     Territorial Defence, or it was shelled.

11        Q.   Was your office in that building?

12        A.   Yes.  It wasn't a proper police office.  It used to be the

13     cafeteria or something, so it wasn't a proper police office.

14        Q.   You did -- or, rather, did you work from that office?

15        A.   Yes, that was the only office I had.

16        Q.   We heard your earlier testimony to the effect that your home was

17     in Nedzarici, the apartment where you lived.  And, also, a moment ago,

18     you told us that there was no communication between the CSB building and

19     Nedzarici.  Tell me, where did you live, sleep, et cetera, in 1992?

20        A.   In the office where I worked.

21        Q.   Did any other senior personnel from the CSB live in a similar

22     way, if I can put it that way?

23        A.   Yes, all senior personnel were refugees except for the chief of

24     the centre.  We all slept in our offices.

25        Q.   Here it says "except for the chief of the centre," where did he

Page 22243

 1     sleep?

 2        A.   He slept with us in the office, too.  But the man was from

 3     Sokolac, so he could go to his home every now and then; whereas the rest

 4     of us could not go home at all.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, 1D106, that is tab number 1 in your binder.

 6     That is the document I'd like to show you now.  Just a question before we

 7     move on to this document.  Sir, in the beginning of your testimony today

 8     you were saying that public security stations dealt with less serious

 9     crime, if I can put it that way, whereas CSBs dealt with more serious

10     crimes.  I am talking about the MUP of the Socialist Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Did the same principle apply in the MUP of

12     Republika Srpska?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   As the CSB and specifically the crime prevention department, were

15     you involved in operative work in the territory of the CSB, at least

16     during this first period of time up until the end of the summer of 1992?

17        A.   Well, if you saw that payroll, who could be involved in operative

18     work?  There was no operative work.

19        Q.   Mr. Tusevljak, according to the job description schematic, how

20     many workers of the crime prevention department at the CSB of

21     Sarajevo Birac Romanija should there have been?

22        A.   I think that they envisaged about 100 workers, 100 members in

23     these five departments who were well qualified.  That many were supposed

24     to work at the CSB.

25        Q.   When you say "workers," you are referring to inspectors mainly;

Page 22244

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Let me repeat.  When you say "workers," who do you have in mind?

 4     What profile of employees do you have in mind?

 5        A.   I'm referring to inspectors who would be in charge of crime

 6     prevention dealing with regular general crime, with white-collar crime,

 7     fire prevention department, and so on.

 8        Q.   How many inspectors did you have?

 9        A.   The profile of inspectors changed.

10        Q.   Tell us about the period up until the end of the summer of 1992,

11     how many inspectors did you have?

12        A.   Four to five, sometimes three depending on the period of time.

13        Q.   And later?

14        A.   At the end of 1992, when the Ministry of the Interior announced

15     job vacancies, the number increased.

16        Q.   Let us go back to the document before us.  Sir, this is a report

17     dated the 12th of July, 1992, signed by Milenko Karisik and

18     Ljubinko Mitrovic on page 3.  Do you know these two men?

19        A.   Yes.  Ljubinko Mitrovic was an operative at the centre, and

20     Karisik, Milenko, I think, was an operative in Novo Sarajevo.

21        Q.   This report pertains to early July when the chief of the CSB sent

22     these two men to Vogosca.  It says here that their task was to review the

23     crime situation in the Serbian municipality of Vogosca.  Tell me, please,

24     did you know about this report at the time in 1992?

25        A.   Yes, I did.  These operatives were sent by the chief of the

Page 22245

 1     centre, and I think that it was at the insistence of somebody from

 2     political circles, or perhaps from the government of Republika Srpska.

 3        Q.   Tell me, please, before this period of time and before this

 4     report, did you know what the situation was regarding crime in the

 5     Serbian municipality of Vogosca?

 6        A.   No, not until this date.  Nobody from the CSB went to Vogosca,

 7     nor did we receive any official dispatch from that police station.

 8        Q.   Before this report, did you know that in Vogosca SJB they did not

 9     have the crime police at all?

10        A.   I did not know about crime police existing there at all.

11        Q.   Was an instruction issued to the Vogosca SJB regarding that, and

12     if so, what kind of an instruction?  Was something of the sort done when

13     they inspected this place?

14        A.   Based on this official report of these operatives, one can see

15     that they only spoke to the chief and to the assistant.  It can also be

16     seen here that the offices of the crime police were locked.  The Vogosca

17     public security station before the war had its own crime police

18     department, and it was clear that none of the pre-war workers worked at

19     the police station on the 9th of July.

20        Q.   Following this report, was the crime police department founded in

21     the Vogosca SJB?

22        A.   It was agreed to set up the crime police but it wasn't done

23     immediately because the operatives from the centre who had gone down

24     there encountered problems, both with the chief of the station and with

25     some other individuals.

Page 22246

 1        Q.   Sir, on page 2 of this document, the penultimate paragraph, last

 2     sentence of that paragraph reads:

 3             "Upon arrival of the Assistant Minister Dobro Planojevic to

 4     Vogosca, we spoke to him and told him about our observations regarding

 5     the situation, and we agreed that the crime service should be set up and

 6     that it should be made up of the following persons:  Brane Vlaco, head of

 7     the service, current employee of the service and the Sarajevo CSB;

 8     Stanko Blagovcanin, and then" -- I apologise, I was rushing.

 9             So the following people would make up that service:  Brane Vlaco,

10     as the head of the service, hereto employee of the service and the

11     Sarajevo CSB; the next person, Stanko Blagovcanin, employee of the

12     Vogosca SJB dealing with crime; and then additional two persons.  Tell

13     me, please, this name, Vlaco, Brane, do you know this person?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Who is it and what do you know about this person?

16        A.   Brane Vlaco was an employee of the white-collar crime of the

17     Sarajevo CSB.  He may have been in some kind of a management position.

18     He was there when the war broke out because he was originally from

19     Vogosca.  He signed up to work in this police station.  So he was an

20     inspector in our centre before the war.

21        Q.   And you know him personally?

22        A.   Yes, I know him personally.

23        Q.   Did he have some kind of a specific feature?  Did he have

24     mustache, beard?

25        A.   At the time, he had mustache, I think.  To this day that's true,

Page 22247

 1     but I haven't seen him for a number of years.

 2        Q.   What happened after this, did Brane Vlaco become the chief of the

 3     crime prevention service at the Vogosca SJB?

 4        A.   I don't think he did, and if he did by any chance, then he held

 5     that position for a very short period of time because soon thereafter he

 6     left the area.

 7        Q.   Do you know where he went and what he did?

 8        A.   I think that for awhile he was an inspector at the crime police

 9     administration in Bijeljina in the RS MUP, and then after that, he moved

10     to some other positions that were not within the MUP.

11        Q.   Do you know what he does today?

12        A.   I think he is a banker nowadays.  I am not sure.  I think that he

13     is in the banking industry.

14        Q.   Following this report, Mr. Tusevljak, was there another visit

15     made to the Vogosca SJB?

16        A.   Yes, following the problems that the operatives encountered

17     there, I, too, was sent by the chief of the centre to Vogosca.

18        Q.   Do you remember when that was, roughly?

19        A.   Also in July.

20        Q.   Could we look at tab 2, 1D182.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, you haven't forgotten the --

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, I did, Your Honours.  I apologise.

23     Perhaps this is a good place to stop for the day.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Thank you.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you.  I'm sorry.

Page 22248

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Tusevljak, we are about to take the first

 2     adjournment for the day in the course of your testimony, and I remind you

 3     that having been sworn as a witness, you cannot have any communication

 4     with counsel from either side.  Moreover, in such conversations as you

 5     have with anybody else, you cannot discuss your testimony.  So we will

 6     continue tomorrow morning.  The Court is not going to rise immediately,

 7     as we have other matters with which to deal.  The usher will escort you

 8     from the courtroom, and we'll reconvene in this courtroom tomorrow

 9     morning.  Thank you.  Sorry, tomorrow afternoon.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Could we go into private session, please.

12                           [Private session]

13     (redacted)

14     (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted)

18     (redacted)

19     (redacted)

20     (redacted)

21     (redacted)

22     (redacted)

23     (redacted)

24     (redacted)

25     (redacted)

Page 22249











11     Page 22249 redacted. Private session.















Page 22250

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise to resume tomorrow at 2.30.  I assume

13     that counsel would have seen the -- today's change to the calendar where

14     on Friday we are sitting in the -- sorry, 2.15 tomorrow.  And I assume

15     the counsel has seen the change whereby on Friday we are sitting in the

16     morning, not in the afternoon.  Thank you.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.

18                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of June,

19                           2011, at 2.15 p.m.