Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23142

 1                           Tuesday, 12 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     The Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone.  May we take the appearances today, please.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Good morning, all.  I'm Tom Hannis,

11     along with Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

13     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan and Ms. Tatjana Savic appearing for

14     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

16     Aleksandar Aleksic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

18             And if there are no preliminary -- yes, Mr. Zecevic.

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23143

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23144











11 Page 23144 redacted. Private session.















Page 23145

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE HALL:  So could the witness please be escorted back to the

15     stand.  Thank you.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Macar, good morning to you, sir.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Of course the Chamber and counsel would have

20     indicated yesterday we are alive to your concerns, and we would, as the

21     day progresses, accommodate you, as we sought to do yesterday.  We were

22     wondering whether you would prefer to have another chair than the one

23     that you are now in?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This chair is quite comfortable and

25     I have asked for a higher chair in the witness room with a different kind

Page 23146

 1     of a seat, with a higher seat, and I think that the lady I was talking to

 2     actually understood what I meant.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4             So before I invite Mr. Hannis to resume his cross-examination, I

 5     give you the usual warning as to your solemn -- reminder as to your

 6     solemn declaration.

 7                           WITNESS:  GORAN MACAR [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Hannis.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis:  [Continued]

12        Q.   Mr. Macar, I'd like to start this morning by having a look at the

13     video from the police parade on 30 March 1992, and I believe this is

14     Exhibit 1D633.  And I ask not to start at the beginning, but start at the

15     point where the presenter introduces Mr. Cvijetic, who is going to

16     administer the solemn declaration.

17             And, first of all, can you tell me, if you know, who is that

18     person who is doing the presenting at this moment?  We'll start the video

19     now.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. HANNIS:  Can we pause.

22        Q.   Do you recognise that gentleman?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. HANNIS:  If we can go forward then and play the portion where

Page 23147

 1     the solemn declaration is read out.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The solemn declaration will be read

 4     by the minister of the interior of the Serbian Autonomous Region of

 5     Romanija, Zoran Cvijetic.

 6             "I declare that I will perform the duty of authorised official

 7     conscientiously and responsibly, that I will abide by the constitution of

 8     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia and the

 9     law, and that I will protect the constitutionally-established order of

10     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia, rights,

11     freedoms, and security, and that I will carry out these and other tasks

12     and assignments of authorised official even in cases when carrying out

13     these tasks and assignments would bring my life into jeopardy."

14             MR. HANNIS:  We can pause there.

15        Q.   I want to ask you some questions about the solemn declaration.

16             MR. HANNIS:  I don't know if we can put up on the screen for the

17     witness now the transcript which has the solemn declaration.  I

18     understood that the video and the transcript were both marked with this

19     exhibit number, so I'm not sure how it appears in e-court.

20        Q.   Yes, at 1503, Mr. Macar, can you see the text of the solemn

21     declaration that we just heard read out?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, I think I recall from your OTP interview that you said you,

24     yourself, did not take a solemn declaration for the new Serbian ministry;

25     is that correct?

Page 23148

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   No one told you that you you needed to do that?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   You are aware, aren't you, that some members of the former joint

 5     MUP of Bosnia, particularly non-Serbs, were released from work in various

 6     SJBs around Bosnia when they refused to take this new solemn declaration?

 7     You knew about that, didn't you?

 8        A.   The pre-war amendments to the Law on Internal Affairs envisaged

 9     that a solemn declaration had to be made.  When I started work way back

10     in 1977, the solemn declaration was made only by cadets who graduated

11     from the police high school at Vrace.  Even when the OTP investigators

12     spoke with me, they asked me about that.  They asked me whether I was

13     aware of the fact that a solemn declaration had to be made, and I said

14     that I was not aware of that.  And I was a bit taken aback by the

15     question.  I couldn't tell whether it was provocative or not.  And then I

16     checked through some of my colleagues, in the meantime.  They showed me

17     some amendments to the Law on the Ministry of the Interior which

18     envisaged that a solemn declaration had to be made.

19        Q.   Well, let's have a look at the Law on Internal Affairs.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Could we see Exhibit P530.  And I need to see

21     Article 41, which is at the English 6.  And I think it's the B/C/S

22     page 6.  It's tab 3 of our list.

23        Q.   And this is a Law on Internal Affairs that was promulgated in

24     March of 1992.  I think the Official Gazette date is the 23rd of March,

25     1992.  You see Article 41 talks about authorised officials.  And in the

Page 23149

 1     English, if we could go on a little further to the top of the right-hand

 2     column.  It says:

 3             "The authorised official shall make a solemn declaration before

 4     the minister or an official ..."

 5             And if we can go further down in the English, you'll see the

 6     text.  And can you see the text of the solemn declaration in your B/C/S

 7     version, Mr. Macar?

 8        A.   Yes, I'm reading it now.  Yes, I can see the text.

 9        Q.   One difference from what is in the law and what was read out on

10     the 30th of March, 1992, is in Sokolac.  The language used was the

11     constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

12     established order of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina;

13     whereas, in the law itself, it just says the constitution and the

14     republic.  But other than that, would you agree with me that the text

15     appears to be the same?

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, I have to object.  The quoting of the

17     transcript of the video is not entirely right.

18             MR. HANNIS:  If it's not entirely right, then it's up to the

19     Defence.  They put this document in.  And if they put in the transcript

20     that's incorrect, they should advise me before I'm relying on it.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, no, no.  The transcript is perfectly all

22     right, and it reflects what was said on that particular date.  However,

23     when you are reading the differences, you are not reading it all, that's

24     the point.  That's the point I'm trying to make.

25             MR. HANNIS:  Well, we can all see both transcripts.  Can you

Page 23150

 1     point out to me where I read something that's not correct?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  If my memory serves me well, it mentions Yugoslavia

 3     as well.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.  Additionally, Yugoslavia is in what was read

 5     out in Sokolac, and that's not in the law.

 6        Q.   Would you agree, Mr. Macar, that those are the differences

 7     between what is in the law and what was said in Sokolac?

 8        A.   Yes, this is the partial difference.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'd like to show you another solemn declaration.

10             MR. HANNIS:  If we could look at Exhibit P510.  This is the

11     previous Law on Internal Affairs.  This is tab 75 on the Prosecution's

12     list.  This was the Law on Internal Affairs from 29 January 1990, that

13     was in effect up until this time.  If we could look English page 12 and

14     the B/C/S at page 5, Article 41, same article.

15        Q.   Now, we've heard evidence during this trial with some people

16     saying that they didn't understand what all the fuss was about the solemn

17     declaration because it was identical to the old one.  And, as far as I

18     can understand, this 1990 version of the Law on Internal Affairs is the

19     old solemn declaration.  And I want to point out to you in the English

20     upper right-hand column --

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  And also in Serbian upper right-hand column because

22     it's showing the part which is not ...

23             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

24        Q.   I'll begin with the part that says:

25             "That I will protect the constitutional order and the rights,

Page 23151

 1     freedoms, and security of working people and citizens with all my

 2     strength..."

 3             And I would indicate to you that this language of working people

 4     and citizens has been omitted from the new solemn declaration that's in

 5     the Law on Internal Affairs from March 23rd, 1992.

 6             Do you agree, or do you need me to take you back to the old law

 7     or the transcript from Sokolac?  In neither place, I tell you, is that

 8     language about working people and citizens included, would you agree?

 9        A.   First of all, I would like to say that where it says here

10     security of working people and citizens, this is communist terminology,

11     communist language that was used, not only in this law but in many other

12     laws.  And here, you speak about citizens because I can't see why this

13     difference should be made between the workers or working people and

14     citizens because they are both citizens.  So this is communist

15     terminology that was just copied from one act to the other, from one

16     legal instrument to the other, year in, year out.  And it is very

17     striking because people are divided into two categories, and then you

18     have to ask yourself who are citizens, as opposed to the working people.

19     If you look at this legal instrument and many other pre-war legal

20     instruments in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you can see that in subsequent laws,

21     this kind of terminology was deleted.

22        Q.   Nothing new is put in place in the new law.  There's no reference

23     to working people or to citizens or to anyone; right?

24        A.   I would like to check, but I think that the language is the

25     security of citizens or something like that, but I'd have to see it

Page 23152

 1     again.

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Could we put back up the transcript from the Sokolac

 3     video.  It's 1D633.

 4        Q.   Do you see it there?  My English says:

 5             "Rights, freedom, and security, and that I will carry out these

 6     and other tasks."

 7             There's no reference to anybody in terms of who those rights and

 8     freedoms apply to; right?

 9        A.   If we were to launch a theoretical debate then --

10        Q.   No, no, I don't want to launch a theoretical debate.  Can you

11     just answer my question.  There's no reference to citizens or working

12     persons or anybody; right?

13        A.   But rights, freedoms and security cannot belong to objects --

14        Q.   No, no, Mr. Macar, I have to ask the question.  You have to

15     answer.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, no, Mr. Hannis, with all due respect --

17             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I would request that counsel direct the

18     Trial Chamber and not direct his remarks to he me, personally.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the witness precisely answered

20     Mr. Hannis' question.  I don't understand why Mr. Hannis is protesting

21     because the witness started answering his question, precisely what the

22     question was, his answer was aimed at that.  That is why I intervened.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, apart from that, we can all read.  It

24     isn't there, but, I mean, we can all read.  And, eventually, I would like

25     the witness to take his headphones off and ask you what turns on it,

Page 23153

 1     because I'm --

 2             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honours -- Your Honours, I have a

 3     follow-up question to ask relating to the possible reasons that some

 4     people declined to take the new oath.  And I'm going to suggest that one

 5     of the possibilities is because of the change in language.  Now, my

 6     question --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The absence of the citizens and the working

 8     class?

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Yes and the addition of the Republic of Serbia ...

10     [Overlapping speakers]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The new republic ... [Overlapping speakers]

12             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, the addition and the omission.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the omission.

14             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, both.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That would have been hard-line communist, then.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, possibly, or someone who is just

17     not comfortable with the change that he doesn't understand.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And what is the relevance to this case?  I mean,

19     the absence of the citizens and the working class?

20             MR. HANNIS:  Well, partly, Your Honour, it's because the Defence

21     and certain Defence witnesses -- I think Mr. Zupljanin is quoted in a

22     newspaper article that's in evidence somewhere as having saying there is

23     absolutely no difference between the new solemn declaration and the old.

24     That's not correct.  There are differences.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Relevant differences?  I mean, except for the

Page 23154

 1     fact that it's a new republic, and the republic now is called

 2     Republika Srpska.  But is the omission relevant to this case?

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honour, I think it can be, because the

 4     new -- the change in the oath may have been the reasons that some people

 5     did not want to remain in a Serbian MUP.  I don't know.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  But the point I'm trying to make, Your Honour, is I

 8     ask a question whether it was in there or not.  The response I got was

 9     something about having a theoretical discussion.  And I disagree with my

10     learned friend that the witness was answering my question.  He was not.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do you need the witness to answer the question to

12     tell us what we can read?

13             MR. HANNIS:  No, Your Honour, but if he could take his headphones

14     off for a second, I have a comment about that.

15             Your Honour, the way a witness answers questions to one party,

16     compared to the way he answers it to another party, is sometimes a factor

17     the Trial Chamber can consider in deciding the credibility of that

18     witness, the reliability of the witness, bias, motive, prejudice, and

19     what weight to give his evidence.  That's the point I'm trying to make

20     there.  Thank you.  That's all I had to say before he puts his headphones

21     back on.

22        Q.   All right.  Mr. Macar, let's move on to something else.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Could we look again at Exhibit P353.  This is tab 6.

24        Q.   This is one day after the Sokolac police parade.  It's the

25     31st of March, 1992.  And this is the dispatch sent by Mr. Mandic.

Page 23155

 1             Now, in the speech that Mr. Stanisic made in Sokolac, he claimed

 2     that the legality of the new Serbian MUP was based on the result of the

 3     negotiations of three ethnic communities under the auspices of the

 4     European community, and he says, provided by the constitution of the

 5     Serbian Republic and the Law on Internal Affairs recently adopted.

 6             Mr. Macar, you are aware, aren't you, that sometime between the

 7     18th of March, 1992, and the 31st of March, 1992, Mr. Izetbegovic had

 8     withdrawn his signature to the so-called Sarajevo agreement, and as of at

 9     least 27 March, everyone knew that that agreement was not in effect?  You

10     knew about that, didn't you?

11        A.   I don't know when exactly Mr. Izetbegovic withdrew his signature.

12     I do remember his famous statement, though, that he holds one opinion in

13     the morning and another in the afternoon.  I'm not sure when he withdrew

14     his signature and how.

15        Q.   You are aware that on the 27th of March, there was a session of

16     the Assembly of the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in which

17     Mr. Krajisnik informed the deputies that Mr. Izetbegovic, or at least the

18     Muslims, were no longer going to follow the Sarajevo agreement, did you

19     know that?

20        A.   What could be read or heard in the Sarajevo media is my only

21     source of information.

22        Q.   All right.  In Sokolac, you mentioned that you spoke with

23     Mr. Stanisic after his remarks.  Who else was with him that day, that you

24     recall?

25        A.   There were a lot of people from Sokolac who were looking on.  I

Page 23156

 1     had an opportunity to speak to Mr. Stanisic at the stadium.  I don't

 2     exactly remember who was around him.  I may be able to do so if I could

 3     look at the video once more.  I was interested in this new MUP of the

 4     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the political implications

 5     of that.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Yes, I had thought about showing you the video and asking

 7     you if you could identify some people in there, but I think it will be

 8     better if I can do that later, because when we were trying to stop the

 9     video, the persons in the background were somewhat blurred.  I'm going to

10     see if we can get some better images to do that later on, perhaps

11     tomorrow.

12             Did you speak to anybody else who might have been travelling with

13     Mr. Stanisic on that date, if you remember?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And you said that after that you went back to work in Sarajevo.

16     What time did you leave Sokolac and arrive in Sarajevo on that Monday?

17        A.   It took me about an hour of slow driving.  And there were

18     check-points of the Green Berets at the points of entry to Sarajevo, and

19     there were also active duty and reserve police officers of the Stari Grad

20     police station, so I took a roundabout route.  I went directly to the

21     city SUP, to Mr. Leutar's office.  Because of the security-relevant

22     events throughout March, we had this practice of meeting and discussing

23     all the current problems.

24        Q.   Yes.  And you mentioned, I think, that on the 31st of March, the

25     day that Mr. Mandic sent out his dispatch, that there was a meeting in

Page 23157

 1     Mr. Leutar's office where he told you a little bit about what was

 2     happening in the MUP.  Mr. Leutar is no longer alive; right?

 3        A.   Unfortunately.  He was a true professional.  And, probably, even

 4     in the post-war period, he would have been able to make a great

 5     contribution to the work of the security authorities.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Do you know when and how he died?

 7        A.   He was brutally killed in Sarajevo.  An explosive device was

 8     planted under his vehicle.

 9        Q.   What year was that?

10        A.   If I remember well, it was after 1996, but I don't remember when

11     it was exactly.

12        Q.   Okay.  You said that during these discussions, I think that

13     Mr. Leutar told you that the headquarters of the Serbian ministry would

14     be in the building of the former BH ministry.  Does that mean the

15     building where you were working in the beginning of 1992, the very same

16     building?

17        A.   No, I said that the headquarters of the MUP of the Serb Republic

18     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the best of my knowledge, would be in the

19     building of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that there would be

20     something like a joint headquarters, that is, in the building of the

21     Ministry of the Interior of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   Well, what building was it that you worked in, in January of

23     1992?  What building was that?

24        A.   I worked at the city Secretariat of the Interior on

25     Augusta Cesarca Street.

Page 23158

 1        Q.   And I think you mentioned that Jozo had told you that there was

 2     going to be a new Croatian MUP, but that was going to be in Mostar;

 3     right?

 4        A.   He didn't say that it would be established but that the

 5     preparations to establish a Croatian MUP had been completed, that those

 6     preparations had been made in Mostar for a MUP of the Croats, and that

 7     the equipping of that ministry with materiel and everything had been

 8     finished.  He didn't say, however, where the headquarters of the ministry

 9     would be, because it was my understanding that the headquarters of all

10     these ministries would be in the building of the MUP of the former Bosnia

11     and Herzegovina.  I think it was on Berise Kovacevica Street.

12        Q.   So all three ethnic MUPs in one building in Sarajevo?

13        A.   Yes.  The headquarters.

14        Q.   So you continued to go to work through the rest of that week, I

15     think, until Friday, April 3rd; right?  And you actually worked on

16     April 3rd and then left about 4.00 that afternoon; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I'd like to show you a document, sir.

19             MR. HANNIS:  This is Exhibit P29.  It's tab 8 of the

20     Prosecution's list.

21        Q.   This is an article from the newspaper "Oslobodjenje" for the

22     1st of April, 1992.  I see the photograph there, that's Mr. Stanisic

23     apparently in Sokolac.  And that looks like the event that we saw on

24     video that you attended on the 30th of March; correct?

25        A.   The photograph is too blurred for me to be able to tell.  I can't

Page 23159

 1     really make out the faces.

 2        Q.   Can you not recognise that that is Mico Stanisic in the

 3     photograph, in a raincoat?

 4        A.   Yes, although he was much younger then.

 5        Q.   Weren't we all.

 6             You'll see the article below that, my English translation

 7     translates that as "April fool reality."  And the bold entries, right

 8     below the big headline, says:

 9             "Serbian members of the service already invited to join 'Serbian

10     MUP' Delimustafic sends his appeal for unity.  The ones who leave - will

11     be fired."

12             You were there in Sarajevo, you must have known about all this

13     going on; correct?

14        A.   Believe me that there were so many security problems in the city

15     of Sarajevo that I didn't have the opportunity to read this.  You could

16     read a lot of stuff in the papers those days, so I don't know whose

17     comments these are.

18        Q.   Well, just a few minutes ago, you told me you got all your

19     information from the media; is that not correct?

20        A.   No, I may have said that about something in particular, but I

21     didn't receive all information from the media.  Probably you asked me a

22     specific question, and I answered that I was able to get some information

23     from the media, most probably from television.

24        Q.   The invitation to join the Serbian MUP is a reference to

25     Mr. Mandic's dispatch sent out on the 31st of March; right?

Page 23160

 1        A.   I didn't read the dispatch itself.  It was addressed to the

 2     secretary.  Mr. Leutar was present at the meeting who retold us the

 3     contents of the dispatch.  Let me remind you that Mr. Stanisic informed

 4     me that structural talks about the co-ordination of the future ministry

 5     in that building that I mentioned were to follow.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you about something that's in my English translation

 7     of the last paragraph of this article.  It says:

 8             "The report of the commission for the abuse of the authority

 9     within MUP was announced yesterday.  It says that the illegal burning of

10     the confiscated money caused damage of 27.702.000 BiH dinars and that

11     there were illegalities in the handling of temporary confiscated weapons

12     and vehicles."

13             Were you aware that there was some suspicion in circles that

14     Momo Mandic had been involved in some of that?  Did you know about that?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Let me show you Exhibit P2320.

17             MR. HANNIS:  This is at tab 79 of the Prosecution's list.

18        Q.   Who was Mr. Leutar's immediate superior, your boss's boss?

19        A.   The secretary of the city Secretariat of the Interior of

20     Sarajevo.

21        Q.   Okay.  And along the line of work in headquarters, who would have

22     been his boss?

23        A.   The deputy and the minister, eventually.

24        Q.   And who was the deputy, by name?

25        A.   As it says here, it was Mr. Zepinic.

Page 23161

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Have you ever seen this document before?  This is

 2     dated the 1st of April, 1992, and it appears to be from the full

 3     collegium of the ministry to the CSBs and the SUP Sarajevo and to all

 4     SJBs.  Did you ever see it?

 5        A.   No.  I was able to read it now.  Bearing in mind the situation in

 6     the MUP and the functioning of the ministry, especially in 1991 and part

 7     of 1992, this dispatch seems ironic, or, well, let's put it another way,

 8     unprofessional.

 9        Q.   Unprofessional in what way?  It's from the collegium.  It's

10     signed by the minister.  It's signed by the deputy minister.  It's signed

11     by all the heads of administration.  The only one it's not signed by is

12     Mico Stanisic who is listed as an advisor.  In what way does this

13     dispatch seem unprofessional?

14        A.   Let me tone down my assessment.  Possibly somebody finally

15     remembered that the ministry should start operating and doing its work

16     because a year or so earlier, the functional system of that ministry was

17     disrupted, and the ministry actually lost most of its remit.

18        Q.   In fact, this is a rapid response to the situation that has been

19     created because of the memo sent by Mr. Mandic the day before, and I can

20     show you if you need to, but I will tell you dispatch number 02-2482 of

21     31 March, 1992, as referred to in the document here, is Mr. Mandic's

22     dispatch announcing the new Serbian MUP.  So would you agree that

23     Mr. Delimustafic and the collegium is trying to stop that process and

24     calling upon all MUP employees to return to work and carry out their

25     regular task no later than by tomorrow, the 2nd of April?

Page 23162

 1        A.   I don't know what the deepest intent was.  I'm reading this at

 2     face value.  But I would like to tell you, Your Honours, that sometime in

 3     mid-March, I had an opportunity to spend some time with Mr. Delimustafic

 4     and --

 5        Q.   Well, I am sorry, let me stop you there.  That's not an answer to

 6     my question.  That was not something that was informed in your 65 ter or

 7     the proofing note, as far as I know.  It's not something that I want to

 8     go into at the moment.  Perhaps Mr. Zecevic or the Judges may ask you

 9     about it.

10             So you did not see this, but you see Mr. Mandic's signature is on

11     this document as well; right?

12        A.   Yes, I can see it.

13        Q.   And as we noted, there is no signature from Mr. Stanisic on this

14     first 1st of April document.  Let me show you something that may provide

15     an explanation for that.

16             MR. HANNIS:  If we could look at P171 --

17             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, is this a convenient point before you go

18     on to another document?

19             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honours.  I'm sorry, I missed the clock.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so we take the break and return in 15 minutes.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.22 a.m.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             MR. HANNIS:  If we could put up Exhibit P171, please.  And top

Page 23163

 1     middle, I want to focus on in the B/C/S.  If we can enlarge the upper

 2     half of the page, those two middle columns.  Yes.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Macar, this is from a publication called "Glas," dated the

 4     1st of April, 1992.  And the particular article is one that my English

 5     translation reads as "Inspection of Units in Trebinje."  It's from the

 6     Tanjug agency, reporting that on this date Mico Stanisic, minister of the

 7     interior of the Serbian Republic, was in Trebinje where the SAO

 8     Herzegovina police and Special Police Units were established on that

 9     date.  Did you know about Mr. Stanisic being in Trebinje on the 1st of

10     April for what looks like a similar event to the one you saw in Sokolac

11     on the 30th of March?

12        A.   No, I did not know that.

13        Q.   Were you aware of him visiting any other SAOs for similar events

14     in late March or early April 1992, or is the Sokolac one the only one you

15     have any knowledge of?

16        A.   I only am aware of Sokolac.

17        Q.   If, indeed, as this article indicates, he was in Trebinje on the

18     1st of April, that would be a reason why his signature was not on that

19     1 April dispatch from the collegium that we looked at just before the

20     break; right?

21        A.   Well, the first question is whether he was invited to the

22     meeting.  Well, I can't really speculate on the basis of this article.

23        Q.   All right.  Let's go to your testimony last week, at page 22.848

24     in the transcript.  You were talking about the events of Friday,

25     April 3rd.  And you said that at about 1400 hours that day you went to

Page 23164

 1     Mr. Leutar's office, and that he took you aside and spoke with you, and

 2     told you that there had been a meeting of the leading Muslims in the MUP

 3     at headquarters and that they had decided at that meeting to arrest a

 4     total of 14 ethnic Serbs in leading positions in the MUP; is that

 5     correct?  Is that how you remember it?

 6        A.   No, I did not say senior Muslim officers, but senior officers in

 7     the MUP headquarters who were of Muslim ethnicity, and the rest is

 8     correct.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Did he tell you the names of the 14 Serbs who were

10     proposed to be arrested?

11        A.   He gave me the names.  I remember some of them.

12        Q.   Yes.  I think last week you mentioned Tomo Kovac, Kukobat; is

13     that correct?  That's a name I'm not familiar with.  Who was that?

14        A.   Kukobat - you probably have it in your materials - was the chief

15     of the crime service in the public Security Services Centre in Sarajevo.

16        Q.   You also mentioned last week, yourself and Mr. Planojevic.  But I

17     think in your e-mail from March of this year, you also mentioned

18     Mico Stanisic and Mr. Kijac; is that right?  Do you remember them being

19     among the 14?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   What about Momo Mandic?  He seems like a likely candidate.  Do

22     you remember if his name was mentioned?

23        A.   I don't remember him mentioning the name of Mr. Mandic, out of

24     the 14 names that I remember.  Well, it's been 20 years.

25        Q.   Did he tell you all 14 names or only some?

Page 23165

 1        A.   I don't really remember, because when I heard my own name, quite

 2     naturally this would come as a surprise for anyone, and then he -- I

 3     can't really tell you whether he mentioned all 14 names.

 4        Q.   Fair enough.  Now, from what I read in your testimony earlier

 5     last week and in your e-mail about these events, it seems like this was a

 6     meeting that happened that very day, and Mr. Leutar has the information

 7     almost simultaneously, or within an hour of it actually happening; is

 8     that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.

10        Q.   He didn't attend the meeting himself; right?  He is a Croat.  He

11     wouldn't have been at that meeting?

12        A.   No.  No, he was not.

13        Q.   Okay.  Do you know how he came by the information?  Was there

14     some eaves-dropping equipment in the office where the meeting was held?

15     How did he know so quickly?

16        A.   Mr. Jozo Leutar was very well informed as a senior officer, and

17     he also had some friends among the Muslim personnel.  Now, as to what

18     channels he used to gain this information, I can't really speculate, but

19     I do know that he was quite concerned and that the comment that he made

20     after I sought some additional explanations from him, he said, well, he

21     didn't know what to give me as a reason.  He said something along the

22     lines of, Look at those fools, what are they doing?  And this is

23     something that's really is etched in my memory.

24        Q.   You never saw any document about this meeting or the 14 of you

25     who were supposed to be arrested; right?

Page 23166

 1        A.   Well, as I've already explained, on that day, the 3rd of April,

 2     sometime around 1400 hours, I went to Sokolac with my late wife to visit

 3     my children and my parents.  And after that, I could not go back to

 4     Sarajevo.  I wasn't in Sarajevo anymore in order to be able to learn

 5     anything more about this information.

 6        Q.   And as I understand your testimony from last week, you --

 7     although they attempted to stop you at the check-point, you did not stop;

 8     right?

 9        A.   That's correct, because my policeman's honour did not allow me to

10     be checked by the Green Berets, paramilitaries.  I actually was able to

11     recognise a small-time criminal from Bascarsija in their ranks, together

12     with the active and reserve police from the Stari Grad police station.

13     They were all together.

14        Q.   Were you concerned that you might actually be arrested if you had

15     stopped?

16        A.   It's not that I was concerned, and it's not that I was concerned

17     only about possible arrest.  The way they held their automatic rifles,

18     the people who manned the check-point, this could have resulted in some

19     undesirable consequences.  But at the same time, I assumed because there

20     were many civilians there passing through, I thought that they would not

21     use their weapons.  My wife was panicked and quite upset, and she even

22     told me to stop because she could not believe what was going on.  She was

23     able to see that they were removing clothes, pillows, bed covers from the

24     trunks of the cars of those people, whatever it was that those people

25     were carrying in their cars.

Page 23167

 1        Q.   Did you take it seriously at the time that there was a plan to

 2     arrest you and 13 other Serbs?  Did you actually think that somebody was

 3     going to arrest you?

 4        A.   Well, the information that I received at that level from this

 5     kind of senior officer is definitely something that should concern you,

 6     but I think that I was more focused on trying to find out what was behind

 7     all that.  Unfortunately, it turn out that this information was, indeed,

 8     correct.

 9        Q.   Did you talk to any of the other Serbs who were supposedly on the

10     list that Friday or that weekend, to see what they knew about it,

11     Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Kijac, Mr. Planojevic?  Talk to any of them to see what

12     they knew about this?

13        A.   Well, as I've already said, Mr. Leutar, knowing that Secretary

14     Kijac was not in his office, took me to his office in order to share this

15     information with me because there were some other people in Leutar's

16     office.  Now, private telephone numbers that belonged to Mr. Kijac or

17     Mr. Stanisic, I did not have those numbers in order to be able to

18     communicate with them and my rule of thumb was always to socialise less

19     with the police officers.  And there were very few of those people whose

20     home phone numbers I knew and whom I socialised with, because in the

21     official communication, we had the duty centre where we could leave

22     messages and try to contact people for official business.  And I did plan

23     for Sunday evening because I had some -- or, rather, my wife had some

24     obligations in the Ministry of Finance where she worked, and I also had

25     my own job, and I planned to go back to Sarajevo on Sunday evening.  And

Page 23168

 1     our usual practice was that whenever we went to visit our children, to

 2     leave on Friday, unless there were some emergencies, and to go back on

 3     Sunday evening.

 4        Q.   Yes, I recall you testified about that last week.  And that's a

 5     little puzzling to me.  If you took it seriously that there was a plan to

 6     arrest you, why would you go back to work on Monday?

 7        A.   I did not feel any kind of guilt on any grounds, and I thought

 8     that I would be able to face all those problems.  I knew that there was

 9     no legal basis for any kind of treatment of this kind.

10        Q.   Did you hear while you were in Sokolac about the attack or

11     take-over of the Vrace police school by Mr. Mandic, Momo Mandic, and

12     others from the Serb police force?

13        A.   I received information about that from TV.  I don't know what day

14     it was.  I think it may have been Sunday.

15        Q.   Is that one of the reasons you didn't go back to Sarajevo on

16     Monday?

17        A.   Since I received a report that traffic was disrupted on the roads

18     leading into and out of Sarajevo on the Sokolac-Sarajevo route, and also

19     after I received some additional information from Mr. Nujic, I did not

20     go.  My wife called her ministry, I think the minister at that time was

21     Mr. Pajic, and he advised us not to travel to Sarajevo.

22        Q.   If there had been an active warrant for your arrest or an

23     all-points bulletin, don't you think that Sokolac would have been one of

24     the first places the police would have looked for you, knowing that you

25     were from there and your parents were from there?  That kind of

Page 23169

 1     information must have been in your personnel file in the MUP; right?

 2        A.   If you are now talking about the time when the Ministry of the

 3     Interior functioned normally, then the answer to your question is yes;

 4     but if you are now talking about the ministry as it functioned in this

 5     time-period, where the ministry, in fact, operated in contravention of

 6     the Law on Internal Affairs and other legal frameworks, then the measures

 7     could have been ordered by a smaller circle within the Ministry of the

 8     Interior and taken also in that smaller circle.

 9        Q.   And someone knew how to contact you by phone in Sokolac because

10     Mr. Nujic called you that Monday morning; right?

11        A.   Well, in line with the procedure, all senior officers, including

12     myself, had their numbers on their files.  And, usually, I would say to

13     the duty officer, I'm going to visit my parents, and my parents' number

14     was there on the file, and they were able to contact me.  And this is how

15     Mr. Nujic, because, after all, I did not make it a secret that I was

16     going to visit my parents and my children, that's how he knew it.

17        Q.   You mentioned at page 22.856 from last week that starting from

18     Monday and Tuesday, I guess that would be April 6th and 7th:

19             "Many people came to Sokolac, a couple thousand.  They had all

20     fled.  Among them were also my relatives."

21             Where had these people come from that were fleeing to Sokolac?

22     Had they come from Sarajevo?

23        A.   For the most part, from Gorazde.  Especially my mother's family

24     lived in the Gorazde area.

25        Q.   And so they had managed to get to --

Page 23170

 1        A.   And some of the family members were from Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   And they managed to get through the roadblocks, out of Sarajevo,

 3     on Monday and Tuesday?

 4        A.   On the Sokolac-Sarajevo route, they could not.  I know that a

 5     family past through Olovo, bypassing the main road, and managed to reach

 6     Sokolac.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, you, some time after this, went to --

 8     well, where did you go first?  Did you go to Vrace or Pale when you began

 9     to work with the RS MUP?

10        A.   To Pale, and then a day or two later, I went to Vrace.

11        Q.   And you mentioned in Pale you went to a facility whose name I

12     have a hard time pronouncing, Buducnost, Buducnost.  Can you help me with

13     that?

14        A.   It seems to me that this is what it was called.  It was a scout's

15     hall, a small building.

16        Q.   Sometime I've heard reference to a Kalovita Brda, is that the

17     same facility, or is that something else?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked some questions about the inspectors

20     who were working for you when you began with the RS MUP.  You mentioned

21     Mr. Kovac, Ljubomir; Mr. Orasanin; a Kapetanovic.  Do you recall when

22     Ostoja Minic was hired and began working as an inspector?  I think you

23     said in August 1992.  But we've seen from the documents that he

24     participated in the interviews of some of the Yellow Wasps who had been

25     arrested at the very end of July, so do you know if he started before the

Page 23171

 1     Yellow Wasps had been arrested, or was it only at that very same time?

 2        A.   I was quite specific.  Mr. Ostoja Minic was tasked with assisting

 3     in the prosecution of the Yellow Wasp cases in Bijeljina.  And if my

 4     memory serves me right, Ostoja Minic used to work in the CSB in Tuzla,

 5     but then he fled to Bijeljina.  I think for awhile he was in the military

 6     police and then he was transferred to the public security station in

 7     Bijeljina.  And once a team was set up that would deal with the

 8     Yellow Wasps case, Mr. Minic was in that team.  And that's how he

 9     actually became part of that group and he went on working in the crime

10     enforcement division from August 1992 onwards.

11        Q.   Okay.  And I think you said that there were four or five

12     inspectors working for you in the time-period from April to the end of

13     July.  I want to ask about that, starting, first of all, by looking at

14     one of the payroll documents.

15             MR. HANNIS:  This is Exhibit 1D570.

16        Q.   And that will be up on the screen in a moment, Mr. Macar.

17             MR. HANNIS:  It's tab 18 of the Prosecution list.

18        Q.   You see this appears to be a payroll for the crime

19     administration.  Mr. Planojevic is listed as the assistant minister, and

20     you are the co-ordinator.  Inspectors include Mr. Milanovic,

21     Mr. Orasanin.  Petko Pekic's name is on here, but it says he was on sick

22     leave.  Do you recall that?  Did he work any part of that time, or was he

23     sick the whole time?  Do you recall?

24        A.   No, he wasn't working.

25        Q.   Further down, we see Danilo Vukovic listed as an inspector.  And

Page 23172

 1     Sinisa Karan, I don't see a designation for him, was he working as an

 2     inspector at that time?  Do you recall?

 3        A.   Mr. Sinisa Karan was an inspector.  I don't remember the exact

 4     date when he joined the MUP.  What Mr. Vukovic and Mr. Andan, I think --

 5     he was sent to Bijeljina to help out the SJB and to assist in the efforts

 6     to set up a Bijeljina CSB.

 7        Q.   Yes.  And the bottom right, we see what appears to be the name

 8     and a signature, the name of Dragan Andan.  What was his position at the

 9     time?  Was he inspector working in your administration, or was he in some

10     kind of independent position?  Do you know?

11        A.   No, he didn't work in my administration, and I wouldn't speculate

12     now in which administration he did work.  This signature means that he

13     received the salary of Mr. Vukovic who was in Bijeljina.  And I believe

14     that these salaries were paid out retroactively when the budget was set

15     up.

16        Q.   Yes.  We see some dates by some of these salaries, seems they

17     paid on the 28th of July for Mr. Karan.  And then there's a note about

18     travel orders for Mr. Planojevic, and you, Orasanin, Pekic, and Vukovic.

19     What was that about?  Is that extra pay you get when you travel out on

20     your inspection tours or work-related duties?

21        A.   When the budget was set up, and I can see that it was in July or

22     so, there were these symbolic fees.  If you were to convert that into

23     euros, it would be a negligible amount.  So we did get some money when we

24     were out in the field, but it was very little converted into German marks

25     at the time, or euros nowadays.

Page 23173

 1        Q.   But I understand the higher the number, the more travel you were

 2     doing; right?  So, for example, we see you got 10.000 which was more than

 3     your entire regular monthly amount of 8.500.  Mr. Orasanin got 2.000,

 4     does that mean that you travelled five times as many places or as many

 5     miles as he did?  What does that mean?

 6        A.   No, it doesn't mean that.  If there were other inspectors with

 7     me, I also received the money to cover some of their expenses.

 8        Q.   And do you recall what travel you personally did in June 1992,

 9     where you went?

10        A.   It's been 20 years, so, really, if you could remind me of a

11     particular event, that would jog my memory, but otherwise.  And,

12     generally speaking, in the crime enforcement administration - I apologise

13     if I interrupted you - there were orderly records of travel orders for

14     vehicles and persons.  We were very precise about it, as if it were

15     peacetime.  We did so because at some check-points, especially military

16     check-points, there were problems with passing through.  We had to show

17     our IDs and prove who we were, and so on.  Most of us at the time didn't

18     wear uniform, especially crime enforcement inspectors.  We also used our

19     old official IDs until new ones were made.  And if you had a travel

20     order, you could show very accurately where you were and when.

21             And let me add the following:  We mostly travelled through

22     war-affected areas or areas where there had been incidents involving

23     weapons, so we needed some sort of evidence for where we were in case of

24     possible consequences.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And that's fair enough, Mr. Macar, I'm not sure where

Page 23174

 1     I travelled in June of 2011 much less June of 1992.

 2             I want to show you another document.  This is tab 25 of the

 3     Prosecution's list.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  It's 65 ter 20149.

 5        Q.   This is another payroll document.  It appears to be for

 6     July 1992.  Yeah, the first name on the list as assistant minister is

 7     Mr. Planojevic, but then I see there's a line drawn through his name.

 8     We've heard evidence, and I understand, that sometime around the 22nd,

 9     23rd of July, Mr. Planojevic was relieved of his position as assistant

10     minister.  Do you recall that?

11        A.   I think that this mistake was corrected and that Mr. Planojevic

12     received his due for the period when he was in his position.

13        Q.   I agree, it seemed like he was entitled for payment for at least

14     three-quarters of the month, but do you recall that he was replaced or

15     removed from that position toward the end of July?

16        A.   Whether he was replaced or transferred to another position in

17     agreement with the minister is something I don't know.  I think that

18     there was some sort of agreement under which he voluntarily left the

19     position of assistant minister and immediately was transferred to the

20     State Security Service or national security.

21        Q.   Did you ever hear about it?  Did Mr. Planojevic, himself, ever

22     tell you about any disagreement he had with Mico Stanisic that led up to

23     his leaving his position as assistant minister for the crime

24     administration?  What do you know about that, if anything?

25        A.   Mr. Planojevic and I had good relations.  Initially, we planned

Page 23175

 1     together and made some pioneer arrangements for the setting up of the

 2     ministry.  During this period -- but I don't know if this is fit for open

 3     session because it has do with Mr. Planojevic's private life.  After ten

 4     years, he got a child.  His wife was at Herceg Novi which is in

 5     Montenegro, and I believe that she gave birth there.  At the same time --

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Should we go into private session.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, we can.  I know the witness has

 8     testified about it, but I don't remember if it was in open session when

 9     we heard about this before.  Out of an abundance of caution, we can and

10     then we can open it up later.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we would do that.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23176

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. HANNIS:

25        Q.   Mr. Macar, returning to the document, we see your name and the

Page 23177

 1     title is "co-ordinator," but co-ordinator has been scratched out.  Is

 2     that to reflect the fact that when Mr. Planojevic has left his position

 3     you now are the assistant or acting assistant?  What happened there?

 4        A.   No.  I was still co-ordinator.  This is late July or thereabouts.

 5     That is -- or, rather, why the word co-ordinator was struck out, I don't

 6     know.  It may have been out of revolt or any other reason.

 7        Q.   But who took over Mr. Planojevic's position when he left?

 8        A.   After August, that is, in early September, when the decision was

 9     made to move the ministry to Bijeljina, upon the request of the minister,

10     I worked as a co-ordinator, and I was tasked to organise a crime

11     enforcement administration.

12        Q.   Well, you had been working as co-ordinator up to this point, was

13     that a change, then, in your position or not?

14        A.   No.  No, my appointment was still in force, appointment to the

15     position of co-ordinator.  But I got an oral order from the minister to

16     set up the ministry, and I actually acted as chief, too, but there was no

17     decision on my appointment to the position of chief.  So you can check

18     that in the documents.  It never says that I was chief.

19        Q.   Okay.  I understand that you didn't get an official written

20     appointment, but there was nobody else doing that job, de facto you were

21     the one acting in that position; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And it looks like everyone's salaries have gone up since the last

24     month.  Now instead of 8.500, you are getting 20.000, correct, at least

25     on paper?

Page 23178

 1        A.   Both in 1991 and in 1992, there was high inflation.  So in order

 2     to compare, you would have to convert the respective amounts to

 3     German marks, and then you would find that the salaries were

 4     approximately the same.  You probably know that inflation was such that

 5     the exchange rate was set almost hourly.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  The number of inspectors -- we see some new

 7     names here that weren't seen on the previous list.  I don't believe

 8     Tadija Cvoro was an inspector previously.  Is that a new one?

 9        A.   Yes, Mr. Tadija Cvoro was an experienced police officer from

10     before the war, and I believe that he was a reserve police officer

11     because he had retired before that.  We employed him for certain tasks.

12        Q.   And Radivoje Stanisic, Zeljko Vasiljevic, those were new ones as

13     well from the last pay period?

14        A.   Vasiljevic was wounded in combat in the early days of the war,

15     and he was treated in military hospital.  His leg was badly injured, and

16     he was on sick leave.  And then we had consultations and decided that he

17     should remain on the list until the final outcome that would take into

18     consideration his medical -- or his state of health.  And

19     Ranka Vasiljevic, if you want me to explain, was a very good

20     administrator, court administrator in Sarajevo.  That's why we hired him

21     in the administration as an administrator because we needed his profile,

22     especially from September 1992 onwards.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And Mr. Stanisic's condition of being sick, I suppose

24     that salary of only 6.000 is a reflection that he is not working full

25     time; is that right?

Page 23179

 1        A.   Vasiljevic?

 2        Q.   No, Radivoje Stanisic.

 3        A.   Radivoje Stanisic is an economist who worked in one of the audit

 4     services.  We had no inspectors who had experience with white-collar

 5     crime, and by hiring Mr. Stanisic, we tried to make up for that.  He may

 6     have been hired on the 15th or the 10th or the 20th, and that's -- that

 7     explains his salary.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender that document, and

10     I note it's time for the next break.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2384, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE HALL:  And we would resume in 15 minutes.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Recess taken at 11.16 a.m.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17                           --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may, just before we start, with

19     the leave of the Trial Chamber, may I respond on the question posed at

20     the beginning, tomorrow, concerning the 54 bis?  Thank you very much.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Macar, I see you've got a new chair.  Let us know if that

23     causes you any problems.  I want to show you one more payroll document

24     before moving on to another topic.

25             MR. HANNIS:  It's 65 ter 20150 at our tab 44.  I think the same

Page 23180

 1     document was on the Defence list as 65 ter 901D1 at their tab 68.

 2        Q.   You see there one, Mr. Macar, it appears -- it has a date

 3     14 September at the top, but it appears to relate to salary for the month

 4     of August.  Am I reading that correctly?

 5        A.   That's what it says.

 6        Q.   Now, I have a question:  I know that at the beginning of August,

 7     you and several inspectors were doing a lot of work on the Yellow Wasp

 8     case, and Ostoja Minic, an inspector, worked on that case, and I don't

 9     see his name on that list, is that because he was an inspector working

10     out of the CSB in Bijeljina; is that right?

11        A.   I've already stated, Ostoja Minic worked in the Bijeljina SJB

12     because the Bijeljina CSB was not yet operational.  The organisation was

13     not yet in place.

14        Q.   We have seen documents in April of 1992, and certainly prior to

15     August 1992, purporting to come from the Bijeljina CSB, including input

16     into the daily bulletin or daily report that was put out by the RS MUP.

17     Did you not know about that?

18        A.   When I'm talking about the establishment of functions and

19     organisational units in the Security Services Centre, I'm talking about

20     it working at full capacity with all the sections from the crime police,

21     the regular police, the financial affairs and personnel, and so on.

22     That's what I'm talking about.  And then you have to appoint people to

23     the appropriate posts.  Once you have done that, your centre is fully

24     established in organisational terms.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 23181

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, there's an intervention in the transcript.

 2     I don't think that it was properly recorded what the witness has just

 3     answered.  The last sentence.

 4             MR. HANNIS:

 5        Q.   Mr. Macar, your answer, the last sentence in English says:

 6             "Once you have done that, your centre is fully established in

 7     organisational terms."

 8             If you said something different, can you tell us what you meant

 9     it to say?

10        A.   Well, that is not even an approximation.

11        Q.   Well, then please repeat what you said, and we'll see if we get

12     it correctly this time.

13        A.   I'll try to be as brief and as simple as possible.  Once you

14     appoint a person to the post of the centre chief, that does not mean that

15     the centre is established in organisational terms.  When I said that the

16     centre was established much later, in late 1992, that means that the

17     organisational units that are part of a Security Services Centre were

18     established.  All the auxiliary services, all the units, the crime

19     enforcement section, the uniform police section, the analysis section,

20     the financial affairs section, and at the time when I came to Bijeljina,

21     this did not exist.  And it was only when the ministry headquarters was

22     set up there and when some personnel was re-assigned, it was possible to

23     start building the CSB in Bijeljina, to set up some bare bones.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In terms of Mr. Minic working on the Yellow Wasp

25     case, how was that done in real life?  He was not a member of your

Page 23182

 1     administration at headquarters.  Did you draft him to do the work?  Did

 2     you assign him?  Did you request permission from the Bijeljina SJB chief?

 3     How did that work?

 4        A.   I think that I was quite specific in my previous answers.  I, and

 5     my colleagues from the crime enforcement section, did not assume the

 6     tasks of the SJB.  We were in Bijeljina to assist the SJB in the Yellow

 7     Wasp case, and the SJB itself had its own crime service, and Mr. Ostoja

 8     Minic was part of that service.  I don't know how long he had worked in

 9     that public security station because I have some information, according

10     to which, he first served in the military and then transferred to the

11     SJB.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But was it the minister who sent you to Bijeljina to

13     assist with the Yellow Wasp investigation?

14        A.   Yes, and he made me responsible in that area which was within the

15     purview of the crime police service.

16        Q.   Okay.  So Ostoja Minic, and whoever else from the local SJB was

17     working on the investigation, would have been working under your

18     direction for that task; is that right?  Ostoja Minic wasn't going to be

19     telling you what to do; right?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   I caused a problem for myself by asking two questions, and when

22     you gave me a short answer, it's not clear.  So, was Ostoja Minic working

23     under you for this task?

24        A.   Yes, because I co-ordinated work on the Yellow Wasp case.  In

25     that particular sphere, that was assigned to the Ministry of the

Page 23183

 1     Interior.

 2        Q.   And before I forget the document that's on the screen, the

 3     September 14th payroll regarding August 1992, is that accurate, as far as

 4     you remember, as far as the inspectors that were working for you at the

 5     time?

 6        A.   First of all, I would like to correct you.  They did not work for

 7     me, they worked in the Ministry of the Interior.  Now, whether some of

 8     the names are missing or not, I can't really recall, but this would be,

 9     more or less, an accurate list.

10        Q.   Well, I don't want to quibble with you, but you are the number

11     one on the list.  If they weren't working for you, who were they working

12     for?  Weren't you the one that co-ordinated their work, assigned their

13     task, sent them on inspection tours to wherever they got sent?

14        A.   Yes, but I was not privately in the MUP.  Well, I'm not going to

15     insist on that.

16             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.  Your Honours, I'd like to tender that

17     document.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2385, Your Honours.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Now, if we can take a look at Exhibit P1252.  This was shown to

22     you by Mr. Zecevic last week.  It's a document dated the 17th of April,

23     1992.

24        A.   My apologies, it's not very legible.  Could I get a hard copy?

25             MR. HANNIS:  It's tab 10 of the Defence binder.  Let me see, I've

Page 23184

 1     got a hard copy that may be easier for you to read.  I'll hand it to the

 2     usher.

 3        Q.   You were able to help us a little bit when talking about this

 4     document in terms of how documents were numbered within the RS MUP.  And

 5     on this document, at the top above the date, above the heading, we have

 6     the number 10-18/92.  Are you able to see that on your copy?  It's above

 7     the typewritten date of 17 April.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And I think you told us the number 10 referred to the

10     administration for analysis; is that correct?

11        A.   I think that's what I said.

12        Q.   And that's right, isn't it?

13        A.   That's what I assume, and I would be able to be even clearer if

14     my memory could be jogged.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, it's my understanding that in these kind of numbers

16     on the document, the first number does refer to the office or the

17     administration from which it comes.  And, for example, there will be a

18     number for the administration for uniform police, and a different number

19     for the administration for crime police, and a different number for

20     communications and cryptographic protection; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And I think you told us before that the number 01 would refer to

23     the minister's office?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And the second number, the dash 18 before the slash

Page 23185

 1     92, as I understand it, the 92 refers to the year in which this

 2     communication came from the analytical administration, and that number

 3     dash 18 would mean that was the 18th communication or document sent in

 4     1992 by that administration; am I correct so far?

 5        A.   In my administration, that is how things were done.  If we sent a

 6     document at the request of the minister, and if we sign it for him, then

 7     the ordinal numbers followed each other, regardless of the fact that the

 8     minister had asked for this document to be drafted on his behalf.  And

 9     now whether they divided their documents -- whether they made a

10     distinction between documents sent by the section or by the

11     administration and by the minister, I don't know that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I understand.  Let me show you a different document

13     and see if we can talk a little further about that.

14             MR. HANNIS:  Exhibit 1D046, which is Prosecution tab 104, I

15     believe, recently added to my list, Your Honours.  I don't know if you

16     received our e-mail for the last ten or so.

17        Q.   This is a document dated the 15th of May, 1992, from

18     Mico Stanisic.  The number on this one is 01-1/92.  And from what we've

19     said before, it sounds like this is, sort of, the first one in 1992 from

20     the minister himself or from the minister's office.  Do you have any

21     reason to disagree with that?

22        A.   Could I please look at the signature because I would like to see

23     who sent this document, whether it was sent from the minister's office.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, if we can go to the next page.  I am sorry, I

25     don't have a hard copy with me at the moment.

Page 23186

 1        Q.   You see the signature and the stamp at the bottom?

 2        A.   And I would just like to check whether there's any indication as

 3     to how this was sent and the level of encryption and the urgency.  If we

 4     could go back to the beginning of this document.

 5        Q.   Doesn't seem to have any of that information on it, does it?

 6        A.   Yes.  It says here "strictly confidential."  You can see that

 7     above this line, "strictly confidential mail."  Strictly confidential

 8     correspondence did not -- was not logged in the regular logs, and perhaps

 9     this is the first strictly confidential document sent by the minister.  I

10     hope that I have been of some assistance to you here.

11        Q.   Yes, that is helpful because we have seen documents earlier than

12     the 15th of May that appear to be coming from the minister or the

13     minster's office.  But what you are telling me now, it says that

14     depending on their classification, they may be logged in a different book

15     and get a different order, a numerical order.  That makes sense?

16             My question is:  Have you, Mr. Macar, seen this document before

17     today?  Did you see it in 1992?  And do you need us to scroll down

18     through the whole thing?  It's about the formation of a war --

19        A.   Yes, I would like to look at it in order for it to jog my memory.

20     So if you could just scroll it.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Certainly.  If we could do the lower half of this

22     first page now.

23        Q.   And let us know when you've read through number 6, and then we

24     can go to the second page.

25        A.   I have read it.

Page 23187

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Now, if we can go to the second page and to the top

 2     half first.  And could I have the second page in English, please.

 3        Q.   You finished?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  If we can go all the way to the bottom on the B/C/S

 7     so the witness can see to whom it was sent.  That's good.

 8        Q.   Did you receive this document in 1992?  I know on the 15th of May

 9     you would not have been acting head of your administration, you were

10     under Mr. Planojevic at the time, but I wonder, did you see it?

11        A.   Yes, I did see this document.

12        Q.   Okay.  And in item number 9, you see it says:

13             "In order to command and control the overall forces of the

14     ministry, a staff shall be established comprising:"

15             It lists various people; the minister of the interior as

16     commander, and then it includes assistant ministers for crime, police,

17     communications, materiel and finance as members, which I take it to mean

18     Mr. Planojevic at the time would have been a member as the assistant

19     minister for crime.  Do you know did this staff ever meet, ever function

20     in 1992?

21        A.   I don't think that this body ever functioned.

22        Q.   At least you, yourself, never went to any meeting of such a

23     staff; right?

24        A.   I did not.  And, as far as I can recall, this order was issued as

25     a consequence of the knowledge -- well, we have already said that the

Page 23188

 1     active and reserve police and the crime police was engaged in combat to

 2     an excessive extent, and sometimes you would have a situation where, side

 3     by side in a trench, you would have soldiers who had committed crimes or

 4     misdemeanours before the war and had been dealt with by the police, or

 5     were dealt with by the police during the war because of those crimes,

 6     such crimes and misdemeanours.  And at the beginning, the police was

 7     under the command of the Republika Srpska army because it did not have

 8     its own structures.  It did not have its platoons, companies with the

 9     command structure.  But they were all mixed up, and they were all under

10     the command structure of the Republika Srpska army.

11             I know that there were many complaints about police officers from

12     the crime police who objected to the fact that they were in the trenches

13     fighting side by side with people whom they had had to deal with.  And

14     those people were now armed, and there was a great deal of fear among the

15     police officers.  And in the end this, among other things, led to setting

16     up of an organisation.  Once you had a sufficient number of people from

17     the ministry to keep them in a single formation from the platoon up, to

18     have their own command structure, to have assigned to them an area of

19     responsibility and not to be all mixed up with the other forces.  And

20     that, I think, was one of the key reasons why this was done.

21        Q.   Okay.  But, in fairness to the army, isn't it true that some of

22     them might have had a similar complaint about reserve police officers who

23     were in the trench side by side with them, because some of those reserve

24     police officers were criminals who had been guilty of offences before the

25     fighting started?  So some of the army soldiers might have complained

Page 23189

 1     about policemen, the same way policemen were complaining about some of

 2     the soldiers next to them in the trench; right?

 3        A.   If you compare those two indicators, I think that the number of

 4     persons who joined the reserve police and who had committed crimes or

 5     misdemeanours was at the level of statistical error, if you compare it

 6     with the number of criminals who had had to join the army under the

 7     Law on the Armed Forces because the police was in existence from 1945

 8     until 1992.

 9        Q.   But a lot of the reserve police who were in the fighting were

10     only very recently put into the police, correct, in 1991 or 1992?

11        A.   Well, as I've already said, there were standing orders to the

12     centres and the stations to remove this personnel from the ranks of the

13     police of the ministry, and this was done.  I believe that there may have

14     been some isolated cases.  A soldier may have noticed somebody wearing a

15     uniform that they were not supposed to be wearing.  But if you compare

16     the numbers, although there were some complaints, we responded.  But if

17     you compare it with the number of persons who had committed crimes or

18     serious misdemeanours, well, it was thousands of times bigger, this

19     figure.  And this was not because the police was capricious or anything,

20     but the police forces -- the policemen responded because of the factual

21     state of affairs.

22        Q.   I don't want to have a prolonged argument with you about that.

23     Let me put this in context chronologically.  This is May the 15th.  You

24     are aware that on the 12th of May there was an Assembly session of the

25     Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it was at that Assembly session

Page 23190

 1     that the VRS, the Army of the Republika Srpska was created and announced;

 2     correct?  On the 12th of May?

 3        A.   It was in early May, as far as I remember, but when you mention

 4     the Assembly, my memory -- it's easy for me to remember if you mention

 5     the place where the Assembly session was held.

 6        Q.   Banja Luka.

 7        A.   I wasn't present at that Assembly.  I have already said that.  I

 8     attended most Assembly sessions during the war.  The reasons are clear,

 9     it's communication lines.  I know that the VRS was set up during that

10     period, although from the organisational point of view, we did have an

11     army because there was the TO.

12        Q.   Let me move on to something else.  On the 6th of July, at page

13     22.879, you were shown a document that is 1D635.  It was Defence tab

14     number 14.

15             MR. HANNIS:  If we can have a look at that.

16        Q.   This is dated the 22nd of April, 1992, from the federal

17     Secretariat of the Interior.

18        A.   If I could get a hard copy again.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Perhaps Mr. Zecevic can help.  There's the Defence

20     binder.

21             Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

22             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Tab 14.

23             MR. HANNIS:

24        Q.   And if we could enlarge the English on e-court.  You recall this

25     is a document where the federal authorities had a state commission for

Page 23191

 1     genocide and had sent this document apparently to the authorities in

 2     Republika Srpska asking for information concerning crimes against

 3     humanity.  Do you remember looking at that the last week?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I'm just curious about the formulation of this.  In the first

 6     paragraph, it mentions:

 7             "The state commission for the collection of data for the

 8     verification of war crimes, crimes of genocide, and other crimes against

 9     humanity and international law committed against Serbs and other

10     ethnicities during the armed conflict in Croatia and other parts of the

11     country."

12             Now, do you know why Serbs were singled out and identified

13     specifically by name, and everyone else was lumped under "other

14     ethnicities"?  To me, that seems to suggest there was an emphasis on

15     cases where Serbs were victims.  Do you disagree?

16        A.   I do.  And if you want, I can state my reasons.

17        Q.   Well, before you do, let me ask you this question, and maybe you

18     can give me your reasons in the answer.  It's, like, if the state

19     commission just wanted information about war crimes and crimes of

20     genocide and international law, what difference does it make who the

21     victims are?  Just say, Give us all your information about war crimes

22     committed in your territory, regardless of the ethnicity of the

23     perpetrator, regardless of the ethnicity of the victims.  Why wouldn't it

24     be phrased that way, do you know?  Do you have a reason or just a theory?

25        A.   This most certainly is not a theory.  The way I understand this

Page 23192

 1     document, it puts emphasis on the fact that war crimes were committed

 2     against Serbs and others.  Because if they had said war crimes against

 3     Serbs, that would be different, but here it says against Serbs and

 4     others, so this is a way of pointing out what exactly it is they want.

 5             Committed against Serbs and other ethnicities, et cetera.

 6        Q.   Why not say against Yugoslavs and others?

 7        A.   You probably know that in former Yugoslavia there were Serbs and

 8     Muslims, Croats, et cetera, et cetera, and Yugoslavs, that is, people who

 9     stated their ethnicity as Yugoslav rather than another ethnicity.  I know

10     from the people -- I know that many people I knew personally who were

11     Serbs but stated their ethnicity as being Yugoslav, and that's actually

12     the most numerous group of Yugoslavs who were actually Serbs because they

13     were in mixed marriages, or for any other reason.

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let me show you another document on a

15     different topic.

16             MR. HANNIS:  1D73.  This was Defence tab 15, so you may be able

17     to find the hard copy in your binder, Mr. Macar.

18        Q.   At page 22.885 of the transcript, Mr. Zecevic was asking you

19     about this document.  And it's dated the 25th of April, 1992.  It's a

20     decision where Mr. Stanisic is apparently giving some directions about

21     who is entitled to make appointments and which ones need to be confirmed

22     or consulted with the ministry about.  Do you recall talking about this

23     one last week?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Zecevic asked you whether this order was implemented in

Page 23193

 1     practice, and your answer was:

 2             "It often was not."

 3             My question is:  How do you know that it was not implemented in

 4     practice?

 5        A.   I know from information that the administration got during its

 6     visits in 1992, I mean visits to the centres.  And, finally, from the

 7     meetings where the minister himself passed on information to his

 8     administrations.  In some reports Mr. Zecevic presented, I think there

 9     was also the information that some senior officer in some municipality

10     was appointed by the Crisis Staff, or that he didn't meet all the

11     criteria as set out by the Law on Internal Affairs; that is, there was no

12     decision of the minister appointing him, or something like that.

13        Q.   Did you ever personally hear that from Mico Stanisic, and, if so,

14     what person, what position, what location did he tell you about where

15     that had not been done in accordance with this decision?

16        A.   What I heard from Mr. Stanisic was a common practice.  There was

17     information about some CSBs, and that's why he gave this general

18     authorisation, so that it wasn't necessary to go to each and every SJB.

19     But when we did go to SJBs or CSBs, we received specific information.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat.

21             MR. HANNIS:

22        Q.   I am sorry, the interpreters are asking you to please repeat.  I

23     think they lost track of your answer.

24        A.   In principle, I heard of this practice at one of the meetings

25     where other senior officers were also present, that his decisions are not

Page 23194

 1     being acted upon.  In most cases, I got information from the reports

 2     about visits, visits of our inspectors from the crime enforcement

 3     administration.  When I say visits, I mean visits to SJBs and CSBs.  And

 4     there was also my personal observation when I went to places.  And I

 5     heard of many cases from periodic reports from CSBs, and the time I'm

 6     referring to is 1992.

 7        Q.   We'll come to this in more detail later on, but now that you say

 8     that I'll ask you a question or two about Doboj and Teslic.  You had some

 9     inspectors go to that CSB and write some reports about the situation in

10     Doboj CSB and related to Teslic SJB; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I think you've earlier mentioned the Mice, a group who caused a

13     lot of problems in Teslic.  You knew about them from these reports?

14        A.   From the reports submitted by inspectors of the crime enforcement

15     administration when they visited Doboj.

16        Q.   And do you recall that one of the things that the Mice did in

17     Teslic was to kill a number of civilian prisoners, non-Serbs, in town

18     while the regular police force, including the police commander,

19     Mr. Markocevic, were present in the police building?  Did you know about

20     that?

21        A.   I do not remember the details.

22        Q.   Would you agree that the exploits of the Mice were rather severe

23     and notorious?

24        A.   They were certainly illegal, and as far as I know, legal steps

25     were taken against them in accordance with the law.

Page 23195

 1        Q.   Were you aware that members included both military and some,

 2     apparently, police personnel?

 3        A.   As I've said, I do not remember the details.  I did receive

 4     reports, but I don't remember the details of this particular case.

 5        Q.   Okay.  We'll look at some of those reports later on.  Let me move

 6     on to a different topic right now.  At page 22.887, you were asked about

 7     how many dispatches the crime enforcement administration sent out in the

 8     period between April and the end of summer 1992.  And then you were asked

 9     actually how many were received.  And your answer was:

10             "I believe received 31 documents."

11             It's is very precise number going back to April through July of

12     1992.  How are you able to remember that you received 31 documents?

13        A.   I think I said 29 or 31.  Because when we moved to Bijeljina and

14     set up our headquarters there, we were beginning to establish the

15     administration.  We brought with us a notebook where the markings of the

16     documents were entered, and the administrator was to transfer them to the

17     new register or log-book.  We commented on that before, and I believe

18     that I also commenced in my previous answers that it was necessary to

19     improve the functional system of the Ministry of the Interior with all

20     its organisational units as well as information flow, which was

21     significantly disrupted by the existence of various ministries and the

22     fact that the SJBs were under the influence of Crisis Staffs.

23             I want to point out, lest you should understand that the

24     information system was only disrupted in April 1992, the system of

25     subordination and information --

Page 23196

 1        Q.   Stop, stop, please.  You've answered my question.  We'll talk

 2     more about communications later.

 3             Did you have a log-book?  Did your crime administration in MUP

 4     headquarters have a log-book where your administration recorded both

 5     outgoing and incoming dispatches in 1992?

 6        A.   Yes, there was a log-book.  We used regular notebooks, not the

 7     required books or forms because we didn't have any.  That's how we worked

 8     until we got to Bijeljina.

 9        Q.   Do you have a copy of that log-book or any of those notebooks

10     reflecting the communications outgoing and incoming for 1992?

11        A.   I don't have private archives.  And with the permission of the

12     Trial Chamber, I would like to state something which I also stated to the

13     investigators, and I believe it's important for what I'm yet to say, and

14     I was reminded by this question, if I had any documents.  I can show you

15     a document of which I have a copy, and that's one of the very few copies

16     that I have, and it was made on the 29th of November, 2005.  It was sent

17     to the minister of the interior.  I can paraphrase the reason for you --

18             JUDGE HALL:  Well, before you go further, Mr. Macar, perhaps the

19     usher can show it to counsel who is on his feet, and then to counsel on

20     the other side, and then we would proceed from there.

21             MR. HANNIS:  I appreciate that very much, Your Honour.  If it's

22     in B/C/S, it won't help me a lot, but I'll take a look.  Yes.  Actually,

23     Your Honour, before we deal with it, I would like to have a copy of it,

24     then, perhaps, during the break, I can consult with some B/C/S speaker on

25     my team and then I'd be in a better position to know whether or not I

Page 23197

 1     want to try and deal with it, or I want to object to it coming up in this

 2     fashion.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  I agree.  What would be probably the best way is

 4     that we are provided with a copy because I haven't seen the document

 5     myself.  And I see the time.  We are close to a break, so we can, over

 6     the break, discuss it and ...

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Would the usual 15 minutes be sufficient to allow

 9     for you to review it and translate it, especially Mr. Hannis?

10             MR. HANNIS:  Given it's the lunch hour, Your Honour, I'm not sure

11     if I will be able to find a speaker to help me during that time-period,

12     but, I can try.  And if not, then what I'd ask is that if, you know, we

13     can return the document to him and deal --

14             JUDGE HALL:  Tomorrow.

15             MR. HANNIS:  -- with it once I've had a chance to do it, later

16     today or tomorrow.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, yes.  So we take the break now.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, while the witness is coming in, I did

22     get a copy of the document, but I haven't been able to get with a

23     language assistant to look at it yet.  I request that we address it

24     later, probably tomorrow, once I've had a chance to do that.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 23198

 1             MR. HANNIS:

 2        Q.   Mr. Macar, I've seen a copy of the document that you've just

 3     presented but haven't had a chance to go over it with a language

 4     assistant, so I've asked the Judges if we can come back to that perhaps

 5     tomorrow.

 6             But I see you have a blue folder from which you took that

 7     document.  Do you have any other documents in there that you were

 8     intending to bring to our attention before you leave?

 9        A.   Well, I have an overview of the public security stations that I

10     made in late a September 1992, once there were already some indications

11     that the MUP headquarters would move to Bijeljina.  Since some colleagues

12     were all ready to be employed in the administration, I made a list of

13     those security stations in order for people to know how many stations

14     were within each centre.  So this was done in September 1993, I think.  I

15     have all my decisions from the war time period, and I found this document

16     among them.  I kept this document -- I had it in my possession when I was

17     supposed to talk to the OTP investigators.  I do not have any kind of a

18     private archive that would contain any documents from the Ministry of the

19     Interior, and I did not ever put together any such archive during my work

20     in the ministry.

21        Q.   All right.  Would you be willing to provide the Court a copy of

22     that and allow us to make a copy?

23             Thank you, Mr. Macar.

24             Now, I want to move on to the subject of meetings.  You mentioned

25     that there were, sort of, regular meetings with the minister and then

Page 23199

 1     sometimes among your administration other groups.  Let me ask you about

 2     the period from April through July when Mr. Planojevic was head of the

 3     crime police administration.  How often during that time-period did you

 4     attend any meetings where the minister was present, Mico Stanisic?

 5        A.   First of all, I did not say that there were regular meetings

 6     because in war time how can you say that?  It's not always on Monday or

 7     Friday.  It was dictated by the situation.  At the beginning, the

 8     meetings were attended by Mr. Planojevic, who would tell me about the

 9     issues discussed at the meeting, and in some cases when Mr. Planojevic

10     was not present, I attended.

11        Q.   During that time-period between April and the end of July, do you

12     recall how many meetings you attended in Mr. Planojevic's place where

13     Mico Stanisic was present?  I'm just talking about April to the end of

14     July when Planojevic left his position.

15        A.   Well, definitely more than two.  I don't want to speculate

16     though.  I mean, the exact -- to give you an exact figure after such a

17     long time, I can't really be expected to remember.

18        Q.   Well, you were able to tell me you got 31 documents in 1992.

19     That was a pretty exact number.

20        A.   Well, if you are in a job for a long time and you find yourself

21     in a situation where after April 1992 until sometime in October when we

22     moved to Bijeljina, there is this ministry and you bring with you a

23     notebook with maybe 22 or 31, well, that would be unprofessional, to say

24     the least.  But due to the circumstances, in light of the communications

25     system and how it was organised at the time, when the SAO region was set

Page 23200

 1     up and what it got, it mainly got from the Sarajevo centre, and, of

 2     course, it struck me because I knew that we started with zero because

 3     this figure is a minor figure in light of the problems and the war

 4     itself.  And I remember quite clearly that the notebook had a grey

 5     binding and it remained in the archive of the crime police

 6     administration.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you about Exhibit P1013.  This is Defence

 8     tab 18, so I think it's in your binder.  And this is dated also the 15th

 9     of May.  This looks like a teletype going out from Mr. Zupljanin to

10     subordinate SJBs in the Banja Luka CSB area.  Do you remember looking at

11     this last week?

12        A.   I made a comment saying that this is a document from the Ministry

13     of the Interior, the Banja Luka CSB, was relayed by the centre to its

14     public security stations.

15        Q.   Okay.  And you'll see in the heading it says this is regarding

16     the "communication of the Serbian Republic of BiH MUP number 01-57/92

17     dated 11 May 1992."  Now, based on the discussion we had earlier about

18     the numbering system, 01, I take it, means this comes from the minister's

19     office; is that correct?

20        A.   No.  What it says here, it's the Security Services Centre

21     Banja Luka, dispatch number such and such number, so this is the number

22     of dispatch that is assigned by the Banja Luka CSB.  It's in their log.

23        Q.   No, I understand that.  And that's the number at the top,

24     dispatch number 11-1/01-37, I take it that's the Banja Luka number, below

25     that where it goes to the SJBs, to the chief, you will see it says

Page 23201

 1     "regarding," that's the one I'm asking you about.  Isn't this

 2     Mr. Zupljanin forwarding to his subordinate SJBs a dispatch that

 3     Banja Luka CSB has received from the ministry, and that's the one

 4     numbered 01-57/92, dated 11 May?

 5        A.   Yes, this is the dispatch that had been sent from the MUP

 6     headquarters, the minister, and now it is forwarded to the -- it goes out

 7     into the field.

 8        Q.   And we see the content which apparently is what was in the

 9     dispatch received in Banja Luka from the ministry.  And my question is

10     the 01-57, the 01, isn't that a reference to this coming from the

11     minister's office and not from the crime administration and not from the

12     communications and data protection administration?  You understand my

13     question?

14        A.   Yes, 01 is a designation of the minister's office.

15        Q.   And when you talked about it last week, you said you were

16     familiar with this order.  Do you know who drew it up because you said

17     you remembered it from the time it was drawn up?

18        A.   Yes, because there were several documents on this same topic

19     drafted in the same time-period and sent by the minister.  Some of the

20     documents were sent directly from the minister's office and bore the

21     number of the minister's office, and some were relayed by the other

22     subordinate organisational units, the analysis department, and so on.

23             I would, for instance, give an instruction to relay it and then

24     we would assign our own number, the number of the crime enforcement

25     section, and so on, whoever was issued an order to relay it.  So you do

Page 23202

 1     not have the exact number of documents that were actually sent by the

 2     minister, because in some cases the administrations, themselves, assigned

 3     numbers in their own headquarters to make things -- to speed things up if

 4     it was required, and the documents that were drafted on the orders of the

 5     minister and were forwarded to the addresses specified by him.

 6        Q.   What I'm trying to find out, Mr. Macar, is if you know,

 7     personally, who actually drafted this particular content because you

 8     had -- you had a grammatical or semantical complaint about the use of the

 9     word "unprincipled" in this document.  So do you know who actually wrote

10     it in MUP headquarters, was it the minister, was it you, was it somebody

11     else?  Do you know?

12        A.   Well, I could not have made this kind of mistake because in

13     police jargon, the word "unprincipled" is seldom used.  I would like to

14     look at the original dispatch sent from the ministry because this mistake

15     could have been made when the document sent by the minister was retyped.

16     And I'm sure, because I know the minister, that he used police

17     terminology for the most part.  And I would like to look at the original

18     document and then I would be able to say.

19        Q.   But without knowing specifically who the author was, you can't

20     say for certain that the person who wrote it did not intend to use the

21     word "unprincipled" instead of "unprofessional," which you say would be

22     the more proper police terminology in a document like this; right?

23        A.   Well, I don't know what kind of sanctions you would get for

24     unprincipled behaviour, if there are any sanctions for that kind of

25     behaviour.  And there is a sanction envisaged for unprofessional

Page 23203

 1     behaviour.  And from the time I started working in the police, I never

 2     encountered this kind of a term, and it was not used at all.

 3        Q.   Well, this document is about getting removed from the ministry

 4     people or policemen who engage in certain kinds of behaviour.  Here it's

 5     talking about fighting, violent behaviour, assaulting authorised

 6     officials.  But would you agree with me it would also include looting,

 7     assault and murder of civilians?  That's also the kind of behaviour you

 8     would want to address; correct?

 9        A.   The order was written on the basis of the information obtained by

10     the ministry, or, rather, the minister himself.  I have already said that

11     in some areas it was indicated that some former criminals were among --

12     were in the police ranks now, and we didn't know whether this held true

13     for all the areas, but this document was sent to all areas by way of a

14     warning and instructing them how to -- what to do.

15        Q.   Yes, I'm just having a hard time understanding your quibble about

16     the difference between unprincipled and unprofessional in the context of

17     this document.  Isn't this kind of conduct and assault or murder of

18     civilians, isn't that conduct both unprofessional and unprincipled?

19        A.   Well, I hope that I can be of some assistance to you.  I know

20     what you are driving at but let me help you understand this dispatch.  It

21     says quite clearly here, that in the ranks of the police --

22        Q.   Sorry.  I appreciate your efforts to help me understand, but my

23     question was:  Do you agree that that kind of conduct would be considered

24     both unprofessional and unprincipled?  Can you answer that yes or no,

25     please?

Page 23204

 1        A.   Unprofessional.

 2        Q.   But principled?

 3        A.   I didn't understand you, sorry.

 4        Q.   Obviously.  Never mind, let me move on.

 5             You were talking at page 22.890 with Mr. Zecevic about the

 6     problem starting up this new MUP and how you didn't have any materials or

 7     supplies, including typewriters and paper and fuel.  I agree that was a

 8     serious problem for the RS MUP, but it wasn't such a problem in some

 9     areas, for example, in Banja Luka and Doboj which had previously been

10     operating as CSBs, and maintain most of that materiel and equipment when

11     the fighting started; right?  They were in much better shape than the

12     rest of the RS MUP; agreed?

13        A.   Well, as for us being in a better condition than other parts of

14     Republika Srpska, well, that is true, but if you want to say that we had

15     excessively good equipment and technology, that's not true.  And the

16     other problem was personnel, it wasn't just equipment.

17        Q.   I understand.  You said that, Because of these problems we had to

18     make due with friendly contacts that we had with what was left in

19     warehouses, and so on.  Some of the friendly contacts that helped provide

20     equipment and materiel to the RS MUP included the SDS; right?

21        A.   The SDS -- I noted that I was not a member of the SDS, but I did

22     not speak about it in any other context.

23        Q.   No, but I'm asking you:  Aren't you aware that the SDS helped

24     provided new RS MUP with materiel and equipment?  You didn't know about

25     any of that?

Page 23205

 1        A.   I would have felt that and I wouldn't have had to make due, and

 2     my administration wouldn't have had to steal fuel from myself to be able

 3     to use the vehicles for the needs of the administration.  Of course when

 4     I say stealing from myself, I'm putting it in a joking way.  I would have

 5     been only too happy to go to them and get fuel, although I wasn't a

 6     member of the SDS.  No, I did not know about that.

 7        Q.   And you didn't know about the MUP of Serbia and/or the federal

 8     SUP providing certain equipment and materiel to the new RS MUP in 1992?

 9     Didn't know about any of that?

10        A.   My administration was never affected by the benefits of receiving

11     that equipment or materiel, not even uniforms.  I'm not aware of them

12     supplying anything, and if they did, the quantities can't have been but

13     small because I would have known if it had been on a greater scale.

14        Q.   You mention another one of the problems that was discussed in

15     meetings at the MUP headquarters was the problem about the lack of

16     prosecutors and courts not operating in the territory, and that it wasn't

17     before June or July that a number of prosecutors and judges got their

18     formal official appointments.  Let me ask you, regarding Doboj and

19     Banja Luka CSB territories, did they not already have judges and

20     prosecutors in place who had been working since before the war and who

21     were working even without official appointments before June and July of

22     1992?  Did you know about that?

23        A.   I know that in the Doboj area there was a prosecutor's office,

24     but I'm not sure in what capacity they worked.  I got information from

25     the inspectors when we visited the area.  In 95 per cent of the

Page 23206

 1     municipalities, the prosecutors offices and courts of law were not

 2     functional though.  I don't believe that even the prosecutor's office and

 3     court in the areas of Doboj and Banja Luka functioned with their full

 4     capacity.  And the example of Banja Luka shows that in most places

 5     covered by the centre, the prosecutor's office and court were not

 6     functional.

 7        Q.   After enumerating all these problems --

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Part of the answer was not recorded.  Perhaps you

11     can ask the witness to clarify because he gave the -- in his answer, he

12     explained how he found out that this was the case.

13             MR. HANNIS:

14        Q.   Mr. Macar, you heard what Mr. Zecevic said ...[Microphone not

15     activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecutor.

17             MR. HANNIS:  I am sorry.

18        Q.   Mr. Macar, you heard what Mr. Zecevic said.  Can you tell us how

19     you came to find out this information that in 95 per cent of

20     municipalities the prosecutors offices and courts of law weren't

21     functional?  I think the interpreters didn't pick up all of your previous

22     answer.

23        A.   Are you now referring to the Doboj centre and the Banja Luka

24     centre, that is, the areas covered by them or the entire RS?

25        Q.   I'm not sure.

Page 23207

 1             MR. HANNIS:  I need some help from my friend across the way which

 2     I should be referring to.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  I believe the answer was aimed at Banja Luka and

 4     Doboj.

 5             MR. HANNIS:

 6        Q.   Okay.  Banja Luka and Doboj for now, please.

 7        A.   That's what I supposed.  That's why I asked.  Based on the

 8     reports from the inspectors of the crime enforcement services that he

 9     drew up after visiting the Doboj centre and based on the periodica

10     reports from the CSB, I was able to tell that in the Doboj area where

11     there were SJBs, prosecutors offices and courts were not functioning.  I

12     doubt that even in Doboj itself, the prosecutor's office and the court

13     were fully functional, which can be seen from the reports of the Doboj

14     CSB regarding the municipalities covered by that centre and its SJBs.

15        Q.   Okay, Mr. Macar.  After going through these various problems with

16     Mr. Zecevic, he asked you if this was discussed with your colleagues at

17     the ministry.  Page 22.898, line 15, you said:

18             "Yes, at collegium meetings and briefings at the headquarter."

19             Can you explain to me what the difference is, in your mind,

20     between collegium meetings and briefings?  Who attends collegiums and

21     what is the difference between that and a briefing?

22        A.   A collegium can be a meeting of the inner circle of senior

23     officials or the wider circle of senior officers; that is, the chiefs of

24     administrations.  And when we speak about briefings, apart from the

25     senior officers from the MUP headquarters, there are also the chiefs of

Page 23208

 1     the centres and other senior officers as invited by the minister.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Let me see if I understand.  The inner circle collegium

 3     meeting, that's the minister, and what, all the heads of the

 4     administrations?  Is that the inner circle?

 5        A.   The minister and the chiefs of administrations, and of course the

 6     head of the public security department, if we are talking about public

 7     security.  And let me continue, briefings or shorter meetings are about a

 8     certain topic.  And they are held according to need, depending on what

 9     the topic was that was to be discussed, and it's attended by those senior

10     officers who can say something relevant about that and who are concerned.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  I am sorry, perhaps Mr. Hannis should inquire with

12     the witness.  I believe that looking at him, it appears to me that --

13             MR. HANNIS:  I noticed that, too.  And I was just about to

14     inquire.

15        Q.   Mr. Macar, it looked like you were having some discomfort.  Do

16     you want to continue on for another 20 minutes or would you like to

17     recess now?

18        A.   Well, I can hold out another five minutes or so.

19        Q.   Okay.  I'll try to do that, Mr. Macar, and we'll be done for the

20     day.  The inner circle, did that also include the head of the

21     National Security Service or only public security?

22        A.   As a rule, when we speak about inner circle meetings or collegium

23     meetings, those dealing with public security were held separately from

24     those dealing with national security.

25        Q.   All right.  I understand.  We've seen some documents that are, I

Page 23209

 1     think, described in the heading as a meeting of the extended collegium of

 2     the ministry.  And looking at the attendees, it seems that that extended

 3     collegium included the heads of CSBs.  Did it include anyone else, as a

 4     norm?

 5        A.   The chiefs administrations at headquarters, the chiefs of the

 6     centres.  There were also sometimes wider collegium meetings attended

 7     also by the chief of state security or national security.  These were the

 8     extended collegiums.

 9        Q.   Do you recall how many collegiums meetings ...[Microphone not

10     activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry.

13        Q.   Do you recall how many collegium meetings you would have attended

14     in 1992 after July, when Mr. Planojevic was no longer the head of your

15     administration?

16        A.   I was reminded during the examination by looking at documents.

17     I'm certain about the collegium at Trebinje, and I think there was one in

18     Bijeljina and in Pale.

19        Q.   We'll look at some of those specific meetings later on.  Do you

20     remember attending one on Mount Jahorina, I think, in September?

21        A.   I think I attended the meeting at Pale, I think so.

22        Q.   Is that the same one that I'm referring to when I say

23     Mount Jahorina?

24        A.   It's all the municipality of Pale.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 23210

 1             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I'm about to go into a more lengthy

 2     topic, perhaps this is a good point to stop for today.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment until tomorrow.  And I

 4     remind everyone that tomorrow and Thursday we are sitting in the

 5     afternoons in Courtroom III.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.29 p.m.

 8                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

 9                           July, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.