Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23498

 1                           Tuesday, 19 July 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Morning, all.  For the Prosecution, I'm Tom Hannis

12     with Indah Susanti.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Tatjana Savic, appearing

15     for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

16             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

17     Aleksandar Aleksic on behalf of Mr. Stojan Zupljanin.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  While the witness is on his way in, the

19     Chamber wishes to merely note that it is in receipt of what it is

20     intituled "Prosecution and Defence joint motion to file stipulated

21     facts."  We wonder about the choice of the word "motion" but we note it

22     as a filing, and I don't think that it -- save for commenting that we are

23     in receipt of it, no further action by the Chamber is necessary.  Thank

24     you.  We thank counsel.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 23499

 1             JUDGE HALL:  And, again, for the record, we sit under

 2     Rule 15 bis.  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Macar, good morning to you.  As Mr. Hannis

 5     prepares to wind up, I give you the usual reminder as to your solemn

 6     declaration.

 7             Yes, Mr. Hannis.

 8             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9                           WITNESS:  GORAN MACAR [Resumed]

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]

12        Q.   Mr. Macar, in 1992, did you personally participate in any

13     interrogations of prisoners?

14        A.   Interpretation?

15        Q.   Sorry, did you not hear my question?  Did you, in 1992,

16     personally participate in any interrogation of prisoners?

17             I'll try one more time.  In 1992, Mr. Macar, did you personally

18     participate in the interrogation of any prisoners?

19             We'll try another set.

20             Good morning, sir.  Can you hear me now?  Or are hearing

21     interpretation?  Now, can you hear me?

22        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  My first question was:  In 1992, sir, did you

24     participate personally in the interrogation of any prisoners?

25        A.   No.

Page 23500

 1        Q.   Were you in the room when interrogations were conducted by other

 2     members of the RS MUP?

 3        A.   Perhaps in August, when we did the Yellow Wasps case, I may have

 4     passed by their office to see what they were up to.

 5             Now the sound in my headset is a little too strong.

 6        Q.   Too loud?  We'll try and push the volume down for you.

 7             Now, how's that?

 8        A.   Fantastic.

 9        Q.   Okay.  You don't recall participating or being present during

10     interviews of certain Muslim policemen that had been taken prisoners

11     early in the war, say, April or May; and these interviews would have

12     taken place in Pale?

13        A.   No, not as far as I remember.  As I said, having arrived in Pale,

14     they went straight to Vrace, to the ministry HQ.

15        Q.   All right.  Let me ask you about -- one question about the

16     Yellow Wasps.

17             That investigation revealed information about Mr. Dusko or

18     Dusan Vuckovic, also known as Repic, you were aware, weren't you, that

19     Mr. Repic said after one of his first killing sprees at Celopek Dom,

20     after beatings and tortures and killings of several Muslim men at

21     Celopek, that he and the reserve policemen who were guarding those

22     prisoners had four of the survivors load the dead bodies on a truck, take

23     them away to be dumped in a pit, and that the reserve policemen then shot

24     and killed the remaining Muslims who had loaded the bodies on the truck.

25             That was information you knew about in August 1992, wasn't it?

Page 23501

 1        A.   If I'm not mistaken, I said it right the first time around.

 2     Jurisdiction over the -- over that particular task and jurisdiction over

 3     the investigation of Repic, and so on and so forth, was something that

 4     was done to the military police, the military prosecutor and so on and so

 5     forth.

 6        Q.   I understand that, but you're not answering my question.  Did you

 7     have that information that reserve police had been involved in killing

 8     some of those Muslim prisoners?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have, Mr. Hannis, the reference for your

10     claim that this is in the -- in the statement of Repic and to whom this

11     statement was given.

12             MR. HANNIS:  That's in Exhibit P1539.  I'll show that to the

13     witness in a minute, but right now, I want to know if he recalls having

14     that information.  Tab 31 of the Prosecution's list.

15        Q.   Do you recall if you ever heard about that, about reserve police

16     having killed some of the prisoners from Celopek Dom in Zvornik?

17        A.   I can't remember that.  As a matter of principle, the military

18     police and the military security men would not send us any feedback, and

19     I can't remember.

20             I'd like to see that document, please.

21        Q.   In a moment.  But, if reserve policemen had killed civilian

22     prisoners, that would have been a matter that was subject for police

23     jurisdiction, investigation, and prosecution in civilian court; right?

24        A.   Allegations would need to be checked and verified by civilian

25     bodies.  Based on any information received, there would be a verification

Page 23502

 1     procedure to ascertain the accuracy of the allegations and that's what

 2     the procedure dictated.

 3        Q.   And if, in the course of investigating a crime, the police came

 4     across information that the perpetrators were VRS, military personnel,

 5     you would have forwarded that information to the military police; right?

 6     That was standard procedure, wasn't it?

 7        A.   Whenever information was obtained by the ministry suggesting that

 8     a military conscript committed a crime, the military police or the

 9     military prosecutor would be informed, sometimes with a delay.

10             Perhaps you'll remember when we talked about 1992, when the

11     military prosecutors' offices were established and when touring the

12     various units and institutions, the administration's inspectors would

13     give instructions whenever such information was obtained to forward the

14     information to the relevant military prosecutors.  The distance sometimes

15     exceeding several hundred metres between the place the information was

16     obtained and the relevant military prosecutor.

17        Q.   Okay.  I'll show you Exhibit P1539 now in fairness to you.  It is

18     an Official Note of the interview with Mr. -- with Repic, Mr. Vuckovic.

19     And it was taken by the military police.  It's dated the 4th of August,

20     1992.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Could we go to the last page in both the English and

22     B/C/S, first of all, just to get the name ...

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I have a hard copy, please.

24     This is very difficult for me to follow.

25             MR. HANNIS:

Page 23503

 1        Q.   I'm sorry, I don't have a hard copy with me.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have the hard copy if ...

 3             MR. HANNIS:  If we could have the last page of English in

 4     e-court.

 5        Q.   You see the statement was taken by Lieutenant Milan Stankovic, as

 6     I recall.  Did you -- did you know him?  Do you remember him being there

 7     to help with the processing of the Yellow Wasps?

 8        A.   I don't remember that person.  As I said, the military police

 9     would receive and assess information, obtained probably from other bodies

10     too, and they would act on that.  They handled cases that concerned

11     components or members of the military forces that committed crimes --

12        Q.   You've said that --

13        A.   -- throughout Zvornik municipality.

14        Q.   You've told us about that before.  So you're saying

15     Lieutenant Stankovic and the military police never shared this

16     information with the MUP?  Is that what you are saying?

17        A.   No.  Yes.

18        Q.   "No.  Yes."  Does that mean you're saying they did not share the

19     information with you?  You're sure of that?

20        A.   I'm 100 percent certain that they did not share this information

21     with me.

22        Q.   Or anyone else in the MUP?

23        A.   Well, that is a question for, for instance, Mr. Stankovic and his

24     senior officers.  I don't have that information.

25        Q.   Okay.  Can you think of any reason why the military police would

Page 23504

 1     not want to inform your organ about the allegation that reserve policemen

 2     had killed civilians?  Generally speaking, weren't the police all too --

 3     weren't the military authorities all too happy to advise you whenever

 4     they came across a policeman involved in a crime?

 5        A.   I really can't speculate --

 6        Q.   Okay.

 7        A.   -- what the reason might be.

 8        Q.   Fair enough.

 9        A.   If you looked at the crime police files and archives, you would,

10     no doubt, realise that there was precious little information that we ever

11     obtained from the military.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, we have some documents that talk about how much

13     information was shared in evidence.  We'll look at those.

14             Did you know a Goran Sehovac who, as I understand it, I think was

15     the chief of the Ilidza SJB at some point in time, in perhaps late 1992?

16     Did you know him?

17        A.   I met Mr. Sehovac, I can't remember when, in the middle of the

18     war or sometime towards the end of the war, and after the war.  That's

19     when I met him a little better.

20        Q.   Did you not hear about the event in Kula police station in

21     Sarajevo where he discharged his weapon during, I think, some sort of

22     party or celebration, and killed a -- another Serb named Vlado Vidacak?

23        A.   I'd like to be reminded of the time-period.  I do remember, and I

24     remember that this happened.  I don't remember any details, though.  I

25     know that the Sarajevo CSB checked the circumstances of the event.

Page 23505

 1        Q.   Yes.  I believe it was mid-October 1992.  Did you know that

 2     Tomo Kovac, Simo Tusevljak, Drago Borovcanin, Zoran Cvijetic were all

 3     present when this incident occurred?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Did you know dispatch was sent to the Minister Stanisic the next

 6     day to advise him of the circumstances of that event?

 7        A.   I can't speculate with any precision.  I don't know if a dispatch

 8     was sent to the minister.  As for the event itself, I don't know if I

 9     knew about it right there and then, in 1992, or early 1993.  I can't be

10     very specific in my speculation.  I know there was an investigation and

11     the preliminary steps were taken by the Sarajevo CSB.

12        Q.   On the face, sounds like a more serious violation than

13     Mr. Andan's poker machine.  Were you aware if Mr. Sehovac was ever

14     disciplined or removed from the service or criminally prosecuted for that

15     event; do you know?

16        A.   If memory serves, did he?  But I think it was in that sense.  I'd

17     like to be reminded and see some documents.  I think the investigation,

18     the steps that were taken by the CSB, established that the weapon was

19     used in self-defence.  I'd like to see some documents to be able to

20     establish a time-frame for myself, but I think it was in that context

21     that the report was produced by the CSB.

22        Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry, I don't have any --

23        A.   This is based on my memory.  Just to be sure.

24        Q.   I understand.  Do you know a Tomo Macar?  I believe he worked for

25     a while as the police chief in -- or deputy police chief in Janja, which

Page 23506

 1     is near Bijeljina.  Do you know him?

 2        A.   Tomo Macar was with the Bijeljina CSB.  As far as I know, after

 3     the war, he was assistant commander of the uniformed component of the

 4     Janja police station.

 5        Q.   Are you aware that he was arrested in, I think, March of 2009 in

 6     connection with allegations of abuse of position dealing with an

 7     investigation about the issuing of forged personal documents with an

 8     emphasis on links to helping hide people indicted by this Tribunal?

 9             Did you hear about that in 2009 or later?

10        A.   I read about it in the media, but any details should probably be

11     provided by the RS Ministry of the Interior.

12        Q.   He's originally from Sokolac, isn't he?

13        A.   No, he's not.

14        Q.   Where's he from?

15        A.   He lived in Han Pijesak and Sarajevo, as far as I know.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   I'm not sure if that means anything.  I am myself from Sokolac.

18     I knew many persons there named Macar.  I still do.  He is from the

19     branch of the Macar family that straddles the border between Han Pijesak

20     and Sokolac municipalities.  Just for your information, it's a

21     century-old family living in the areas of Nevesinje and Tjentiste.  There

22     used to be some in Gorazde but there are none around now, as well as

23     Pale, Sokolac and Han Pijesak.  The first time the family occurs in

24     written documents in the Dubrovnik state archive dates back to 1274 [as

25     interpreted].  I was just showing my daughter that book the other day and

Page 23507

 1     I was actually quite jealous because actually the Stanisic family name

 2     occurs in 1373 which is a full year before my family name occurs in

 3     written documents.

 4        Q.   Well, speaking of relations between Macars and Stanisics, isn't

 5     Tomo Macar a brother-in-law of Mico Stanisic?  You know Mr. Stanisic very

 6     well.  You know that, don't you?

 7        A.   I know Mr. Stanisic from my professional life.  But I don't

 8     really know him all that well personally.  His habit, as well as mine,

 9     was not to mix business and private life.

10        Q.   Okay.  But can you answer my question.

11        A.   And as for -- I'll answer your question.

12             As far as Mr. Tomo Macar is concerned, I met him in 1993, when --

13        Q.   No, please.  Please Mr. Macar.

14        A.   May I explain, please, when I found out about --

15        Q.   My question is:  Do you know that Tomo Macar is a brother-in-law

16     of Mico Stanisic?  That's a yes or no question.

17        A.   I found out in 1993 that Tomo Macar was Mico Stanisic's

18     brother-in-law.  And I had never realised that any of the Macar family

19     were close relations to Mico Stanisic.  Not ever, until 1993, as I said.

20        Q.   Okay.

21        A.   As for the rest, Mr. Tomo Macar and I are no close relations.  I

22     met him only in 1993.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you about another Macar that you are related

24     to.

25             Zoran Macar is your brother; right?

Page 23508

 1        A.   Yes, that's true.  He is a year and a half my senior.

 2        Q.   And in 1992 and 1993, he worked for the Sokolac police; right?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   No?  Where did he work?

 5        A.   No.  In 1992, Zoran Macar was a member of the VRS.

 6        Q.   And in 1993?

 7        A.   In 1993, he spent seven months with the Ministry of the Interior

 8     in the crime prevention administration, specifically in the anti-

 9     sabotage unit.

10        Q.   Did you know a Miro Seslija who dealt with a -- explosives in the

11     RS MUP?

12        A.   Mr. Miro Seslija was head of the anti-sabotage unit.  He wasn't

13     into explosives, not during his time with the MUP.  He was dealing with

14     anti-sabotage activities.  As for the rest, and please feel free to ask,

15     I know The Hague investigators spoke to my brother.

16        Q.   Okay.  How about Brano Mandic, cousin to Momcilo Mandic, do you

17     know him?

18        A.   Brano Mandic was an employee of the Ministry of the Interior,

19     even before the war broke out.  He was also involved in anti-sabotage

20     work.  As to the degree of kinship between the two persons you specified

21     I don't know about that.  I don't think he ever pointed out the existence

22     of any family links between them.

23        Q.   How about a Sretan Forkan [phoen] who worked in the Foca police,

24     did he also deal with anti-sabotage?

25        A.   I think he worked for a while in the Sarajevo centre.  I'm not

Page 23509

 1     sure if it was anti-sabotage work, or whatever.  And I can't remember

 2     what became of him later.

 3        Q.   And --

 4        A.   I do know that he was often used.  The anti-sabotage mostly dealt

 5     with anti-sabotage work as it related to buildings, facilities and the

 6     safety of persons.

 7        Q.   Okay.

 8        A.   90 per cent of their work was about securing the Assembly

 9     building, the government buildings, and certain other institutions.  They

10     weren't working with explosives.

11        Q.   All right.  One more person and then one question about the whole

12     group.  Sredo Vucenovic, nicknamed Terrorist, did you know him?

13     Apparently from Banja Luka police.  Did he also work with anti-sabotage?

14        A.   Mr. Vucenovic worked in the anti-sabotage unit.  In the former

15     MUP there would be anti-sabotage units in all of the local organisations,

16     and the same applied to the crime prevention administration.  And for a

17     while, too, the state security.

18        Q.   And isn't it a fact that you were involved in having these men

19     come to Bijeljina and they actually blew up five mosques in March 1993?

20             Would you like some more water?

21        A.   Honourable Judges, this question, I believe, is -- I won't say it

22     is disrespectful or anything like that, but I did suggest to the

23     Prosecutor to freely address me because ... I know about information that

24     I received in Bijeljina.  The worst of it is the fact that this

25     information was conveyed to me by a former member of the Ministry of the

Page 23510

 1     Interior in a drunken state.  I don't think it's a problem for me to name

 2     him in public.  Mr. Ostoja Minic.  He was drunk when he told me -- this

 3     may entail the use of some foul language.  Perhaps you would like me to

 4     quote him, perhaps in closed session or I might as well say it like that.

 5     He said I fucked their mother --

 6        Q.   No, please.  My question was:  Did you --

 7        A.   And --

 8        Q.   Did you do this?  You can say yes or no.

 9        A.   Well, you know, it's a ridiculous question.  It's ridiculous to

10     establish any link between me and somebody like that or indeed anyone

11     from the anti-sabotage unit.

12        Q.   One of the persons I linked you to is --

13        A.   My answer is no.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know for a fact that five mosques were

15     destroyed in Bijeljina in March 1993?  That did happen, didn't it?

16        A.   Yes, it did.

17        Q.   Thank you.  No more questions.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Macar, let us continue where Mr. Hannis

21     broke off.

22             The demolition of these five mosques, your role in that in 1993.

23     So tell me, we heard that you confirmed that these events did happen.  As

24     far as you know, was that ever investigated?

25        A.   Yes.  It was investigated.  The public security station and the

Page 23511

 1     public security centre took operative measures.  They went to the crime

 2     sites, and I believe that they even wanted to consult about the means

 3     used.  It was a task of the SJB and the CJB to collect information about

 4     the events; namely, the demolition of the mosques.

 5             And I would like to amend my previous answer.  The MUP was not in

 6     possession of explosive devices.  I do not quite remember what was found,

 7     what was used to demolish the mosques.  Was it military explosive or

 8     industrial explosive?  We'd have to consult the materials from the

 9     centre.

10             At any rate, I know that the SJB and the CJB investigated.

11        Q.   Mr. Macar, I kindly ask you to be clear.  You can't say anything

12     like "the gentleman I have mentioned" because you have mentioned dozens

13     of people.  That's no way to answer questions.

14             Please tell me the following:  The CSB in Bijeljina, or the MUP,

15     did they have any information about the involvement of any of these

16     persons, or your involvement, in the events in connection with the

17     demolition of the mosques in Bijeljina?

18        A.   Absolutely not.

19        Q.   Was that established in the investigation?

20        A.   There were no indications that pointed to the involvement of any

21     MUP member from SJB level up to headquarters.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the source of that information was

23     Ostoja Minic, who was -- told you that when he was drunk?

24        A.   Yes, it was in a pub.  He said that he had spoken to

25     ICTY investigators and that he said to them in the interview that

Page 23512

 1     Goran Macar, administration chief, chief of the crime enforcement

 2     administration, had brought his brother to -- his brother, or relative,

 3     to the administration, who allegedly was trained to work with explosive

 4     devices, and with that relative and other anti-sabotage personnel,

 5     organised the demolition of the Bijeljina mosques.  I think that this can

 6     be corroborated if his interview given to the investigators can be found.

 7        Q.   Let us just clarify one thing.

 8             It was recorded here that Ostoja Minic told you that.  Did he

 9     tell you or did you hear it from somebody else saying that he was saying

10     that when he was drunk in a pub?

11        A.   No, he didn't tell me directly.  I received information that he

12     was drunk and spoke about that in a Bijeljina pub.

13        Q.   Thank you.  But please be mindful of the need to make a pause

14     between question and answer.

15        A.   Yes, all right.  But you must understand that this is very

16     irritating and quite unbelievable.

17        Q.   Sir, on the first day of your examination, Mr. Hannis asked you a

18     couple of questions.  The page reference is 23119.  He asked you about

19     Predrag Jesuric and Malko Koroman.

20             In the context of your conversation with Jesuric about

21     Mico Davidovic, tell me, please, when did -- or when was Predrag Jesuric

22     appointed SJB chief?  Was it before April 1992 or after that?

23        A.   If memory serves, he was appointed before April 1992.

24        Q.   Was Malko Koroman chief of Pale SJB before the 1st of April,

25     1992?

Page 23513

 1        A.   Yes.  Malko Koroman was in that position before.  I believe that

 2     he replaced Vlastimir Kusmuk, who retired or -- anyway he ceased to be

 3     station chief.

 4        Q.   If Malko Koroman and Predrag Jesuric were SJB chiefs before

 5     April 1992 in Bijeljina and Pale, who appointed them to their positions?

 6        A.   They were appointed to their positions by the minister of the

 7     interior of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Who was minister?

 9        A.   I think it was Alija Delimustafic, but who was minister before

10     him?  Immediately before the war, Mr. Alija Delimustafic, whom I knew

11     personally, was minister.  And we spoke about the dispatch of the MUP,

12     and I can say something about that to the Prosecutor too.

13        Q.   Yes, I remember.  And the Prosecutor interrupted you.  But we'll

14     get there yet.  I wanted to give you a chance to give a full answer.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

16     P648.

17        Q.   On page 23130, on the first day of your testimony - and I'm

18     afraid you don't have that document in the binder, you can only see it on

19     the screen - the Prosecutor showed you this document.  It's from

20     September 1993, and on the last page - that's page 10 - we see the name

21     of Tihomir Glavas in the signature block, who, at the time, was chief of

22     the Ilidza SJB.  Do you remember the document?

23        A.   Yes.  I think that this is it how I looked at it.

24        Q.   Sir, let me not read the transcript now because I'd have to read

25     in English.  It was about the role of Tomo Kovac in the events before the

Page 23514

 1     outbreak of the conflict in April 1992.  On page 6 of this document,

 2     there was a nomination for decorations.  Do you remember?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Let's show the witness page 6.

 5             You see that it says "Tomislav Kovac," and the Prosecutor quoted

 6     from the document, and you said that you were not familiar with these

 7     facts.

 8        A.   Yes.  The arming of the Serbian people, the organising of illegal

 9     work, and so on.  The answer is no.

10        Q.   Tell me, sir -- I would like to show you page 7 as well and

11     item 5 on that page.  Kovac is number 1, and we see that item 5 is a

12     nomination of who?

13        A.   Tihomir Glavas.  Then followed by Branislav Okuka --

14        Q.   No, no, no.  I'm just interested in Tihomir Glavas.  It says here

15     that he was chief of Hadzici SJB.  Is this person mentioned in item 5 the

16     same person that signed this document?

17        A.   Yes.  I don't know that there was another name -- another man by

18     that same name.

19        Q.   Do you agree that it follows from this that Tihomir Glavas

20     nominated himself to be decorated?

21        A.   Unfortunately.

22        Q.   Do you know Mr. Glavas; and what opinion do you have of him?

23        A.   I know him superficially and cannot say anything about his

24     character.

25        Q.   To your mind -- no, I can't ask you that because it would be

Page 23515

 1     calling for speculation.  All right.  Thank you.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] On page 21.261 of the 12th of July, 2011, a

 5     document was shown to you.  It's a dispatch by Mr. Mandic; P353.

 6             Do tell us, because we have some three minutes left, tell us

 7     briefly, because Mr. Hannis interrupted you when you started talking

 8     about Mr. Delimustafic.  You said on that page:

 9             "I had the opportunity to spend some time with Mr. Delimustafic

10     in mid-March 1992."

11             And then Mr. Hannis said:

12             "No, no.  Please stop.  That's not the answer to my question."

13        A.   I'll try to be as fast as possible.

14             I've known Alija Delimustafic for many years, from a time before

15     the war.  In my statement I have --

16             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I need to interject at this

17     point.  This is not something I believe that was listed in the witness's

18     65 ter statement or his proofing statement.  And now it's coming up for

19     the first time in re-direct when I'm not going to have any opportunity to

20     deal with it.

21             So I would either ask that it not be permitted or I be given the

22     opportunity to address it in re-cross.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, it wasn't in -- in a proofing note or

24     65 ter list because I wasn't aware of -- of this fact until Mr. Hannis

25     brought the subject in his cross-examination.

Page 23516

 1             MR. HANNIS:  I didn't --

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Mr. Hannis.  And then the witness

 3     said -- then the witness said:

 4             "Let me tell you, but I would like to tell you, Your Honours,

 5     that sometime in mid-March, I had an opportunity to spend some time with

 6     Mr. Delimustafic, and" --

 7             And then Mr. Hannis:

 8             "Well, I'm sorry.  Let me stop you there.  That's not an answer

 9     to my question.  That was not something that was informed in your

10     65 ter or proofing note, as far as I know.  It is not something that I

11     want to go into at the moment.  Perhaps Mr. Zecevic or the Judges may ask

12     you about it."

13             And that is a precisely what I'm doing.  I am asking about it.

14             MR. HANNIS:  That's my point, Your Honour.  It was not an answer

15     to my question.  So I didn't elicit it, he volunteered it.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  But, nevertheless, it appears it was an

17     expansion - unwanted by you - in terms of a question that you asked, and

18     it appears to be something that is not irrelevant.

19             MR. HANNIS:  Yes --

20             JUDGE HALL:  The choice of the double negative is deliberate.

21             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Though then I understand I should

22     be given an opportunity to re-cross.

23             JUDGE HALL:  If -- if -- if that appears necessary.

24             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, I agree.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  But it's --

Page 23517

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  I see the time, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3             We return in 15 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour, while the witness is ushered in, I

 8     have an oral application to make.  I informed the Registry about it.

 9             At transcript page 14.938, it was agreed that the Zvornik

10     municipal -- Municipality Zvornik municipal bulletin currently on Defence

11     list as 654D1 be added to the law library.  However, the parties omitted

12     to put it in our law library filing and we are applying now that this

13     document be assigned exhibit number.

14             In addition, the parties have agreed to apply -- to ask the

15     Trial Chamber that, besides the first document, 654D1, two more Zvornik

16     bulletins, 656D1 and 663D1, be added to the law library.  And in

17     addition, the parties agreed that 1D181 MFI, be added also to the law

18     library, and, therefore, de-MFI'd.

19             Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  I take it from what you would have said

21     that this is an agreed position.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  Yes, it is, Your Honour.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So -- so ordered.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 23518

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, therefore, exhibit numbers assigned

 2     will be L333, L334, and L335.  Thank you.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  And just for the record, the 1D181 will be

 4     de-MFI'd?

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE HALL:  I understand either -- either way is preferable.

 7     There is no preference from the Registry's point of view, so ...

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Macar, could you please finish your previous

10     answer.

11        A.   Four or five days after the 15th of March, the day known as the

12     day the command of the 2nd Army District in Sarajevo was laid siege to, I

13     went to the Cenex company owned by Alija Delimustafic and his brothers.

14     I was on my way there to hand over the money that was due, proceeds from

15     my family shop run by my brother and my parents at Sokolac.  I got some

16     of my supplies from that company for our family shop.

17             At the entrance to their offices, and I think that was sometime

18     in the morning, between 9.00 and 10.00 in the morning that day, I met

19     Alija Delimustafic.  He invited me to his office.  I wanted to explain to

20     him briefly the reason for my visit.  I said 32.000 German marks had

21     arrived to be used to pay for the previously delivered merchandise.

22     Normally payments would be postponed, and this amounted to about

23     16.000 euro.  He looked at me, he lowered his bag, or briefcase, and

24     asked me to come with him to another room in a different part of the

25     building.  It was like a club room that he used for meeting his business

Page 23519

 1     partners.  There were perhaps four or five chairs there around a table.

 2             The first thing I noticed was that he ordered a whiskey, and that

 3     was the first time I ever saw him order hard liquor like that.  When the

 4     drinks arrived, he raised a toast to me and he said, Goran, don't pay.  I

 5     remember his words very well.  This will all go down the drain.  My

 6     people have decided to press the issue to the bitter end.

 7             At first, I was confused by his offer to not pay.  At the time,

 8     you would have been able to buy two Golf passenger vehicles for that kind

 9     of money.  At the same time, his remark reverberated in my head, what he

10     said about everything going down the drain and his people pressing the

11     issue to the bitter end, or taking the issue to the bitter end.

12             Confused as I was, I asked him, Alija -- because that's how I

13     normally addressed him.  We were neighbours in Marin Dvor and I had known

14     him for quite a number of years.  I said, Alija, can you please explain

15     this?  Because he really gave the impression of being very worried.  He

16     looked very worried.  And he said, Goran, can't you see what's going on?

17     And he listed all sorts of different things.  First he talked about the

18     army district command case and the inability to relay tensions in the

19     ministry itself or, indeed, on the ground.  To be perfectly frank, I was

20     confused.

21             There were some other comments that were made, but, eventually I

22     answered.  Alija, you know, and I think I used this word, if there is

23     trouble, even that will, one day, be over, and we might continue to work

24     together afterwards, after the trouble is over.  I said, Neither my

25     brother nor I can agree to this non-payment proposal.  I handed over to

Page 23520

 1     him an envelope containing some German marks and some dinars.  We were

 2     using the currency exchange rate that was used on the black market and

 3     whenever you bought something, it would always be converted like that,

 4     according to that rate.  And we parted in some confusion, I do remember

 5     that, and all I can say is that I haven't seen him since.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, at page 21261, the Prosecutor showed you P2320.

 7     This is Prosecution tab 79.  And we should soon have it on our screens.

 8             Mr. Hannis asked you the following question:

 9             "You will agree that Mr. Delimustafic and the collegium wanted to

10     stop this process and were calling on all members of the MUP to go back

11     to work and to perform their regular duties as of no later than the

12     2nd of April?"

13             And then your answer.

14             Sir, I think we talked about this.  After the review at Sokolac

15     on the 30th of March, did you go back to the BH MUP to go on performing

16     your routine duties there?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   Did you continue to work as usual until the 3rd of April?

19        A.   I would go to work every day, as usual, until the 3rd of April.

20             And if I may just add one thing, briefly, something that I was

21     trying to tell Mr. Hannis, even this dispatch signed by the collegium

22     does not invalidate Mr. Mandic's previous dispatch.  Not that I can see.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The fact remains the dispatch in front of us right

24     now was signed by Mandic; right?

25        A.   Yes.  I believe that's his signature.  I don't remember exactly

Page 23521

 1     what it looked like, but it certainly looks like it might be that.

 2        Q.   If you look at the header of the document there is a reference to

 3     dispatch UZSK, number 2, dated the 23rd -- the 31st of March, 1992.  It's

 4     a dispatch number 022482 and that's a dispatch sent by Mandic on the

 5     31st of March.

 6             Do you agree with that, sir?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Zecevic, please.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let's move on.

10        Q.   Page 23187.  You were shown 1D46.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have that on our

12     screens.  Thank you.  This is OTP tab 104.

13        Q.   An order dated the 15th of May, 1992 - could we please go to

14     page 2 of the document - signed by Mico Stanisic, Minister of the

15     Interior.

16             Do you recognise Mr. Stanisic's signature there, sir?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   The same page, 23187, you were asked by Mr. Hannis:

19             "Do you know whether this staff ever met?  Did it ever start

20     operating in 1992?"

21             And you said:

22             "I think this body never operated."

23             And Mr. Hannis asked you the following question:

24             "At least you didn't go to any meeting convened by this staff;

25     right?"

Page 23522

 1             And you answered:

 2             "That's true, I didn't."

 3             And then it goes on like that.

 4             Sir, did anyone at the MUP HQ ever tell you that a meeting of

 5     this staff had been held?

 6        A.   No, never.  No one of told me that a meeting had been held or,

 7     indeed, that anyone had attended a meeting of this staff.

 8        Q.   Did you ever see any decisions or orders signed by a body like

 9     that called the staff?

10        A.   No, never.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

13     P530, the Law on Internal Affairs.

14        Q.   Mr. Hannis wanted you to comment on it.  This is 23225 of the

15     LiveNote.

16             He asked you specifically about -- my apologies.

17             I can't find the reference at this point in time.

18             It was about Mr. Hannis's question.  I'll have to read this in

19     the English just to make sure everything is complete.

20             [In English] "Mr. Hannis:  Okay.  Thank you.  Now could you look

21     at the phrase for me and tell me what you understand that to mean,

22     because it says:

23             "'... regulations passed by the municipal assembly and relating

24     to the law and order and road safety ...'

25             "And then it says:

Page 23523

 1             "'... as well as other regulation in the domain of internal

 2     affairs ...'

 3             "What does that mean?  Can you give me an example of regulation

 4     that would be in the domain of internal affairs that doesn't relate to

 5     law and order and road safety?"

 6             Your answer:

 7             "Well, I can't really recall and I don't want to speculate?"

 8             [Interpretation] You remember that particular exchange with

 9     Mr. Hannis, don't you?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   Sir, do you know that -- do you know whether in some

12     municipalities in the territory of the former Socialist Federative

13     Republic of Yugoslavia regulations were passed about bans on pouring

14     alcoholic drinks in catering establishments anywhere throughout that

15     territory?

16        A.   Yes.  That included certain regulations concerning the business

17     hours of these catering establishments as well.

18        Q.   Do you know that municipal assemblies passed certain regulations

19     banning the consumption of alcoholic beverages before 11.00 in the

20     morning?

21        A.   I can't remember at this point in time.

22        Q.   11.00 was just by way of an example.  It could have been a

23     different point in time.  But it was about banning the sales of alcoholic

24     beverages before a certain time in the day.

25        A.   There were regulations that were passed about the procedures

Page 23524

 1     applied in catering establishments while conducting business, but there

 2     were regulations like that that applied to rallies and public meetings

 3     being held as well.

 4        Q.   I am being told that this is Article 27, which is page 4 of the

 5     law.

 6             What about the following regulation:  A regulation imposing a

 7     speed limit in a settlement or a village because of the vicinity of a

 8     school or a creche?  Can that be considered to be part of the same

 9     regulations under Article 27?

10        A.   Yes.  As well as sounding your horn, for example, near a school,

11     a hospital, or a creche.

12        Q.   I've used that example already, so I might just rehash it for the

13     present purpose.

14             Visegrad municipality, for example, adopts a decision to protect

15     the old bridge across the Drina River.  For that purpose, they decide to

16     ban all traffic across the bridge, or perhaps to ban heavy vehicles from

17     using the bridge.  Would that also be an example of regulations under

18     Article 27?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   Be that as it may, but did members of the Ministry of the

21     Interior, based on such regulations, have a responsibility to act in

22     compliance with these regulations?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Macar, if there was a municipal regulation adopted on a

25     municipal level that ran counter to the letter of the law, in a case like

Page 23525

 1     that, would the Ministry of the Interior still have to act in compliance

 2     with that regulation?

 3        A.   Not only would it be under no obligation to implement something

 4     like that, but it would not have the authority to do that, as long as the

 5     regulation in question ran counter to any existing law that applied at

 6     the time throughout the territory.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  22899 is the page reference in the LiveNote.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] There was a verification request

 9     there.

10             23230 is the next reference.

11        Q.   Just to clarify one thing.  Mr. Hannis asked you a question there

12     over the total number of CSB heads and we know that there were five:

13     Trebinje, Doboj, Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and Bijeljina.  So over that

14     number, do you know how many of those were appointed by the minister in

15     1992?  And you say:

16             "He probably appointed all those heads himself.  Their personal

17     files should reflect the fact that he either signed the relevant

18     decisions or not."

19             Mr. Macar, tell me, please, out of these five, Trebinje, Doboj,

20     Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and Bijeljina, which CSBs existed before the

21     1st of April, 1992?

22        A.   The Banja Luka centre and the Doboj centre.

23        Q.   Do you know the names of the chiefs of these centres in

24     Banja Luka and Doboj before the 1st of April, 1992?

25        A.   I think that Mr. Bjelosevic and Mr. Zupljanin were chiefs there

Page 23526

 1     before the 1st of April, 1992.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now let's move onto a topic that Mr. Hannis devoted a

 3     lot of attention to in his cross-examination.  Page -- it begins on

 4     page 23235.  It has to do with war crimes committed against ethnic Serbs.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at two documents

 6     first.  Could the witness be shown 961D1, which is tab 7 in the OTP

 7     binder.

 8        Q.   Sir, this is a form of the decision, an -- an empty form that has

 9     a signature and a seal.  Whose signature is this?

10        A.   Mico Stanisic.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D91,

12     which is Defence tab 111.

13        Q.   Sir, please look at these documents before you now.  First,

14     there's a text of an order, and then there's a handwritten text, and

15     there are two signatures.

16             Whose signatures are these?

17        A.   Mr. Stanisic's, the first one; and I believe the second one as

18     well.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now please look at P173, tab 13.  This is a document

20     shown to you by the Prosecution.

21             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown page 2,

22     please.  I'm particularly interested in the signature at the bottom of

23     that page in the Serbian.

24        Q.   Sir, earlier we saw some signatures that you were able to

25     recognise.  Do you recognise this signature; and, if so, whose is it?

Page 23527

 1        A.   Mr. Stanisic's.

 2        Q.   This, too, is the signature of Mr. Stanisic.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D635,

 6     please.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] I also showed this document to you.  Do you

10     remember this?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And then Mr. Hannis asked you about this document, and you

13     discussed it.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The question of Mr. Hannis was ...

16             So Mr. Hannis asked you about whether you knew why you would be

17     duty-bound to provide information to the Federal Secretariat of the

18     Interior.  Do you remember that question?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Let me just show you P181, which is tab 112; Article 3 of the

21     constitution.  Tab 112.

22        A.   I have found it.

23        Q.   We're waiting for it to appear on the screen.

24             Sir, this is the text of the constitution of the Serbian Republic

25     of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the Official Gazette.  Article 1 says:

Page 23528

 1             "The Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is a state of

 2     Serbian people and citizens living therein."

 3             Would you please read out Article 3 of the constitution?

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the English text as

 5     well.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

 7             "The Republic is a part of the federal state of Yugoslavia."

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Does this pertain to Serb Republic of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina?

11        A.   Yes.  Because this is the constitution of the Serb Republic of

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, we will now go back to the document which had

14     been shown to you, P173, tab 113 of the Prosecution.  We just saw that

15     document earlier.  It speaks of war crimes.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel repeat the number of the

17     document, please.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic --

19             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] P173; page 2, please, which is the

20     Prosecution tab 13.  Page 23235, and then 236, 7, and 8 of the

21     transcript.

22        Q.   Sir, you remember that you spent quite a lot of time discussing

23     this document with Mr. Hannis and discussing war crimes committed against

24     members of the Serb nation.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23529

 1        Q.   And then, in a part of your answer, you said that there was a

 2     campaign, a visible campaign, against ethnic Serbs in the media and that

 3     this is why they insisted on making sure that this material is documented

 4     and presented.

 5        A.   Yes.  Presented in the public and provided to certain organs, in

 6     order to be presented to the public.

 7        Q.   Yes.  Now tell me, sir, in that period of time, in 1992, or at

 8     least in mid-1992, because this document is from May of 1992, the cases

 9     of crimes where the Serbs were victims, were they treated different by

10     the media than the crimes where the victims came from other ethnic

11     communities?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Tell me, please, as far as you know from the media, was it

14     typical for all cases of crimes against Serbs to be doubted in the media?

15     Did the media express doubts about it?

16        A.   The media, outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina, either didn't

17     report on this, or if the victims were, indeed, Serbs, it was portrayed

18     in the media as a crime against some other ethnic community.

19             I remember that there was a case where a crime was committed

20     somewhere near the Drina River, and there was a picture of a mother

21     holding the skull of her son.  And I remember that in some media, it was

22     portrayed as a crime against non-Serb victims, and the expression of pain

23     was quite palpable.  I remember that particular case.  And in most cases,

24     there was no information whatsoever.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 23530

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated].  Microphone, please.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] And that fact, in your view, did it affect and

 4     did it have anything to do with this document, where they ask that the

 5     crimes against Serbs be documented in every possible way, in great

 6     detail?

 7        A.   Yes.  I believe that that was also one of the reasons.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown, please,

 9     P1977, which is tab 109 in the Defence binder.

10        Q.   I have for you the hard copy.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please assist us.

12        Q.   Sir, this document has 11 pages, and on the last page, we see the

13     typed text, "Dr. Radovan Karadzic, President of the Presidency."  The

14     document has not been signed, but on the first page, it says:

15             "Pursuant to Article 7.5 of the Law on Defence and pursuant to

16     the proposal of the cabinet of the government, the President hereby

17     adopts guide-lines on tasks, modes of action and functioning of defence

18     forces of state organs and subjects, in the field of economy and social

19     activities in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the

20     state of war."

21             Tell me, please, have you seen this document before?

22        A.   I remember some things from this document, but I don't know for

23     sure when I saw it.

24        Q.   This document includes guide-lines for work in the areas of

25     defence, internal affairs, judiciary, and public administration, finance,

Page 23531

 1     the economy, social work, foreign policy, and others.  These are

 2     nine separate chapters in all.

 3             Let us take a look at page 3 and item 7 on that page.  The

 4     subheading reads:  "Defence-related tasks."  It says:

 5             "The Ministry of Defence in co-operation with the Main Staff and

 6     the commands and units of the army will solve manning of the units

 7     continuously, as -- as well as materiel and technical supplies, for the

 8     army, importing young soldiers into the registers, recruitment pursuant

 9     to the needs of the army, referring the young recruits to training

10     centres," et cetera.

11             Mr. Macar, do you remember that the Ministry of Defence acted

12     pursuant to this guide-line in 1992 or later?

13        A.   Yes, it did.  And it was the only body that had remit over these

14     issues.

15        Q.   Let us turn to the following page.  I'm interested in item 9

16     under the subheading:  "Tasks in the field of internal affairs."

17             Item 9 reads:

18             "The minister of the internal affairs should adjust its war-time

19     structure to the needs and tasks in war-time conditions ..."

20             And then there is a list of activities:  Public law and order,

21     traffic, and so on.  All these matters are specified by law.

22             Did the ministry act in accordance with these guide-lines?

23        A.   Yes, it did.  Only it had an additional obligation, and that is

24     resubordination to the Army of the RS for purposes of defence.

25        Q.   We'll get there yet.  We're now talking about the first

Page 23532

 1     paragraph of item 9.  These things listed here, such as public law and

 2     order, traffic control, physical protection, intelligence and

 3     counter-intelligence, the protection and control of border crossings,

 4     issuing of identity documents, and so on, all these things that the

 5     ministry was tasked with, was that done in keeping with the

 6     Law on Internal Affairs of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   In paragraph 2 of this item, item 9, we read that the minister of

10     internal affairs shall adopt a special enactment on the internal

11     structure of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in war-time conditions, and

12     so on.

13             So tell me, sir, we saw a document dated 15 May about the

14     establishment of the MUP staff of which you said that it never really

15     operated, that you never heard anyone say that it did, nor that you

16     attended any meeting of that body.  For the sake of reference, that's

17     1D46.

18             When it is said here that the minister of internal affairs shall

19     adopt a special enactment, could that be this document that I have just

20     mentioned?

21        A.   That's possible.  But I don't know that this document was

22     implemented, but it may refer to these tasks.

23        Q.   And the last paragraph of item 9 reads:

24             "Both active and reserve police, as well as members of units for

25     special tasks, which are not part of the war-time structure of the

Page 23533

 1     ministry ... will be placed at the disposal of the army units or -- or

 2     assigned to other war-time tasks."

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat his question.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Well, we started a little later, so you can go for

 5     another five minutes or so if the witness is able to continue.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] I must repeat the question, sir.

 8             Does this paragraph, 3, is this what you spoke about when you

 9     were amending your answer about the first question pertaining to this

10     item?

11        A.   I cannot be as precise as to say that I was referring to this

12     language.  But, as far as I remember, I spoke about the need that, in

13     case of combat operations and resubordination of the police, the police

14     should act as an organised unit rather than as individuals that were

15     assigned to the army.  And I also explained that what could not be

16     covered by the existing organisation had to be resubordinated to the army

17     because we wouldn't have been able to account for the surplus.

18        Q.   Item 10, which is the second item on this page of the document;

19     that's page 5, and I'm interested in the second paragraph of item 10,

20     which also spells out the tasks of the Ministry of the Interior.

21             It reads:

22             "The Ministry of Internal Affairs and its organisational elements

23     shall collect and process the data and material on ... crimes committed

24     and genocide of the civilian population."

25             Sir, this task of the MUP, was it carried out?

Page 23534

 1        A.   Yes.  The MUP documented war crimes committed against the

 2     civilian population without distinguishing on the basis of ethnicity, to

 3     the extent it had any information.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             The following subheading reads:  "Tasks in the field of judiciary

 6     and public administration."

 7             And item 13 says:

 8             "The judiciary bodies of the state shall closely cooperate with

 9     military judiciary bodies, especially with regard to status issues of

10     prisoners of labour," it says here "... and detained persons, then to

11     collecting information and evidence for the initiation of procedure --

12     proceedings against the perpetrators of crimes and genocidal actions, as

13     well as ... other issues of collecting evidence," and so on, "whether

14     they are military or civilian perpetrators."

15             Sir, can you comment on this task that the president gave the

16     Ministry of Justice?

17        A.   It is clear the duties of the civilian and military judiciary

18     bodies are very clearly outlined.

19        Q.   On the following page, which is page 6, item 13 is repeated, but

20     that is obviously a typo.  And we read:

21             "The Ministry of Justice and public administration, in

22     co-operation with the Presidency and the government of the Serbian

23     Republic ... shall intensify the work of the state commission for the

24     establishment of crimes and genocide against the civilian population and

25     victims of war, and the state commission for the exchange of prisoners of

Page 23535

 1     war and detained persons, and they shall ... co-operation with

 2     international organisations and courts and the organs of the

 3     United Nations regarding the scope of work of these commissions."

 4             And then it says that international -- the international law of

 5     war shall be strictly observed.

 6             Can you comment on this item, too?

 7        A.   Yes.  This item, which should be item 14 [as interpreted] because

 8     it follows after 15, it is clearly stated what the state commission for

 9     the establishment of crimes is to do.  In practice, in many cases they

10     deviated from this task.  They also engaged in some activities that were

11     not in their remit.  That's why I often had clashes with that commission.

12     I even demanded at meetings that their tasks be even more precisely

13     defined, and I also wanted somebody to tell them that they cannot engage

14     any activities from the remit of the MUP.  Especially they were not

15     allowed to conceal any information or documents in order to publish books

16     and so on.

17        Q.   Tell me, sir, does this item mention the issue of the ethnicity

18     of the victims or the civilian population as anything relevant?

19        A.   No.  This item mentions civilian population without

20     distinguishing on ethnic or any other grounds.

21        Q.   In the previous item on page 5, the task given to the

22     Ministry of Justice about -- I believe that this is a typo too.  These

23     are not prisoners of labour but prisoners of war and detained persons.

24             Can you comment --

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, if you're going on to something new,

Page 23536

 1     perhaps we could take the break at this point?

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So we return in 15 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, item 13, page 5, under heading 4:  "Tasks

10     in the field of the judiciary and administration."

11             What specific state organs, based on these guide-lines, did the

12     President of the Presidency confer authority upon in relation to

13     prisoners of war and detainees?

14        A.   The justice ministry from the RS government who were to cooperate

15     with military courts and prosecutors in taking certain steps.

16        Q.   What about your own recollection?  Does your own recollection

17     suggest that this was, indeed, the case back in 1992, and these bodies

18     were, indeed, dealing with these issues?

19        A.   Late 1992, I received information about that a month or two or

20     three months later, suggesting that the representatives of the ministry

21     of the RS performed some of the jobs, in terms of gaining insight into

22     the situation in some municipalities and some specific facilities.

23        Q.   Sir, just let's take one thing at a time please.

24             My question was as follows:  What about your own recollection?

25     Does your own recollection suggest that that was indeed the case back in

Page 23537

 1     1992 and these bodies, meaning the justice ministry and the military

 2     bodies, were, indeed, dealing with these persons or these issues?  Yes or

 3     no.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I object to the leading form of the

 5     question and the fact is he did answer the question when it was first

 6     asked.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I wasn't -- I didn't find that this was

 8     the -- the answer to my, I believe, proper question.  What is -- what was

 9     your recollection.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Please answer, sir.

11        A.   If memory serves, the justice ministry took certain measures

12     along with the relevant military bodies.  I can't be more specific as to

13     what type of contact and, and ... and the mode of communication.

14        Q.   What about the Ministry of the Interior?  Were they, too,

15     involved in the contacts between the justice ministry, on the one hand,

16     and the military authorities, on the other, regarding these issues?

17        A.   I don't know that the role of the ministry or anyone from the

18     Ministry of the Interior had anything to do with these tasks.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You will remember that - just to move on to something

20     else - that at one point in time you were asked a question about some

21     information that I had previously shown you, and then Mr. Hannis quoted

22     your answer at 22967.  It was about the question of vetting personnel in

23     the public security stations and CSBs, and according to your answer, it

24     also had to do with anomalies in certain municipalities where chiefs of

25     public security stations were unable to have proper communication and to

Page 23538

 1     make sure the proposed appointments materialised because of obstruction

 2     by municipal leaders.

 3             Mr. Hannis read your own answer back to you and you said that it

 4     had not been properly interpreted.  In the meantime we submitted a

 5     verification request to establish what you really said, and we

 6     established that there was an error in the transcript, which has, in the

 7     meantime, been corrected.

 8             Your answer to my question was this.  I asked you:

 9             "Tell me this:  This reminding by dispatch the municipality

10     presidents and Executive Board presidents, did that yield any results,

11     and if so, what results, partial, fully successful, or less successful?"

12             And your answer was:

13             "In one part of the municipalities, despite this instruction, not

14     to call it a warning, there were no results.  If anything, there was even

15     more obstruction later."

16             Tell me, sir, which municipalities specifically did you have in

17     mind when you said this?

18        A.   First and foremost, Samac municipality which was available to me

19     based on reports.  Prijedor municipality as well, where I had some

20     personal experiences.  I also know there was a lot of obstructionism and

21     many attempts to exert undue influence when appointments were made in

22     Bijeljina, specifically the Bijeljina centre.  There was a lot of

23     turnover regarding the personnel moving from one area to another.  I

24     think back in 1993 there were some attempts to exert pressure on the

25     ministry, specifically from Bijeljina, and you can tell if you look at

Page 23539

 1     our working meetings in some of the reports that were later issued.

 2        Q.   Just to be as specific as we possibly can, since you're expanding

 3     again.  We want to know about 1992.  In this specific answer, which

 4     municipalities were you talking about, in relation to 1992 alone?

 5             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  Can we clarify for the witness that the

 6     document is dated the 20th of November, 1992, so in which municipalities

 7     after 20 November 1992 was there even greater obstruction.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:  I agree.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] You heard the question, sir.  Which

10     municipalities were you referring to?  The document is dated

11     November 1992.  So which specific municipalities were you referring to,

12     but only in relation to 1992.

13        A.   Samac, above all.

14        Q.   What about Prijedor?

15        A.   I had some direct experience with the station chief.  He stated

16     at one point that he had not received any orders from his own superior

17     officers.  He told us about this when he took us to have breakfast there.

18     So Prijedor would fall under that.  The municipal bosses, the Crisis

19     Staff --

20             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  I think the record shows

21     that the visit to Prijedor was on the 15th of November, one day after the

22     witness's birthday, and therefore five days before this document.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] I was just about to ask you the question, sir.

25     You were in Prijedor on the 15th of November.  This document is dated the

Page 23540

 1     20th of November.  You said that obstruction continued.  Based on what do

 2     you say that, that obstruction continued after the 20th of November,

 3     1992, as you suggested?  I'm talking about Prijedor.

 4        A.   Apart from my direct personal experience, you asked me about

 5     1992, right?  So I told you my direct personal experience of actually

 6     going there.  I know about the minister's orders to public security

 7     stations telling them to keep on vetting their own men.  And I know the

 8     Banja Luka centre was unable to do that for Prijedor.

 9        Q.   Was that in 1992?

10             MR. HANNIS:  After the 20th November, 1992.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992, yes.  I wasn't specifically

12     talking about this November or that November.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Macar, please concentrate.  I have had to

15     ask you quite a number of times to try and stay focussed in your answers

16     in order to avoid wasting time.

17             You confirm that after this summons on the 20th of November,

18     obstruction continued in some of the municipalities.  My question was

19     which municipalities, and you said Samac and Prijedor.

20             After that, you provided, in relation to Prijedor, the example of

21     your own direct personal experience five days previously, previous to

22     this 20th November mark.  We're talking about obstruction that continued

23     from the 20th of November on to the end of December 1992, in the case of

24     Prijedor.

25        A.   I know that even after that date the chief of the public security

Page 23541

 1     station [as interpreted] still couldn't comply with this order to appoint

 2     personnel in keeping with what the centre was proposing.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.  Sir, at page 23254 ...

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] There's an error in transcript; 42,

 6     line 18.

 7        Q.   Did you say the chief of the public security station or the chief

 8     of the CSB?

 9        A.   The chief of the Banja Luka CSB could not comply because of

10     obstruction with the proposed appointments in Prijedor until the end of

11     1992.

12        Q.   Mr. Hannis asked you about a document there.  Was it you, was it

13     a deputy that you had sign some documents on your behalf, and who was

14     authorised to grant approval.  I'm talking about the annual report.  And

15     you said that was a draft report, and you said you didn't know what final

16     shape that report took.  You went on to state:

17             "I said I don't know.  At the beginning of that question, in

18     relation to the very beginning of your question, I don't know if anything

19     was changed, if any changes were made to the document or not.  This is a

20     draft document.  I don't know if anyone entered any changes or not.  That

21     would constitute mere speculation.

22             "The Trial Chamber had an opportunity yesterday to see for

23     themselves, based on a document that I produced, that we were able to

24     check the crime police archives.  I wanted to prepare myself," and so on

25     and so forth.

Page 23542

 1             And you go on to say:

 2             "Regrettably I have to inform the Trial Chamber that the request

 3     was not acted upon because the MUP was afraid that someone might be

 4     accused of aiding and abetting war criminals."

 5              First of all, tell me which document, which year were you

 6     referring to when you said:  "... yesterday I produced a document to the

 7     Trial Chamber ..."?

 8        A.   I showed the Chamber a letter from 2005.

 9        Q.   Take it easy, please.  This is the letter that you showed us.  We

10     all exchanged copies of that document.  Is this the letter that you sent

11     to the Ministry of the Interior back in 2005?

12        A.   Yes, the one that I sent to the ministry.

13        Q.   Seeking what?  Briefly, please.

14        A.   I asked to be allowed access to the crime police archive in

15     relation to documents between 1992 and 1995 and a number of other

16     documents that I specified in that letter.

17        Q.   So back in 2005, did the Ministry of the Interior grant you

18     access to that archive?

19        A.   No, it didn't.  Of which I duly informed the investigators that I

20     spoke to in Belgrade, showing them the document.

21        Q.   Which investigators?  Whose investigators?

22        A.   The Tribunal's OTP investigators.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, page 23264, you commented on a document, 1D661,

24     that document, at tab 57.

25             If you feel unwell, sir, please let us know immediately, in

Page 23543

 1     keeping with the Chamber's instructions and we can have a break.

 2             Mr. Hannis asked you some questions about those conclusions.  He

 3     said:

 4             "It seems to me that such conclusions or regulations passed by

 5     the Crisis Staff were something that had to do with public law and order.

 6     In keeping with Article 27 of the Law on Internal Affairs," as you had

 7     occasion to see, "the public security station will be implementing those

 8     regulations.

 9             "Sir, tell me how this constituted interference with the work of

10     the public security station?"

11             And then you said:

12             "I have no problem with that.  The Crisis Staff has a problem

13     with that.  There are issues that are regulated under the Law on

14     Public Law and Order and the Law on Criminal Procedure, and those are not

15     under the jurisdiction of the Crisis Staff.  That body, the Crisis Staff,

16     has no authority to adopt decisions regarding elements that are already

17     regulated under the law."

18             And then you went on to speak about which law specifically and

19     issues like that.  You were asked to provide, if you could, the exact

20     reference as to the exact regulations.

21             Do you remember that, sir?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for --

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we see document P181, please.

25     That is tab 12.

Page 23544

 1        Q.   The document is the constitution of the Serbian Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you have it in front of you.

 3             The Ministry of the Interior, is it an administrative body at the

 4     level of the republic?

 5        A.   Yes.  It's a centralised body at the level of the republic.

 6        Q.   Under the Law on Public Administration, do the organs of the

 7     republic have the right and the duty to establish their territorial

 8     branch offices to exercise their powers?

 9        A.   Yes, they do.  They organised their territorial units at the

10     municipal or at the regional level.

11        Q.   Sir, to which Assembly does the Ministry of the Interior, as a

12     whole, report?

13        A.   To the Assembly of the RS.

14        Q.   Do the organisational units in the municipalities or regions

15     report to another Assembly, with regard to their work?

16        A.   The SJBs report to the Ministry of the Interior for their work,

17     and they can also inform the municipal assembly about some relevant

18     events.  But that's merely information.

19        Q.   Let us take the example of the Vlasenica SJB and their work.  Who

20     reports to the Assembly about its work, as well as the work of all other

21     stations; and which Assembly is that?

22        A.   It's the Ministry of the Interior which reports to the Assembly

23     of the RS.  It reports about the activities of any station.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] For reference, the articles of the

Page 23545

 1     constitutions are 70 and 144 [as interpreted].

 2        Q.   Sir, let's go back to page 23296.  You were shown document 1D644.

 3     That was on 14 July.  The tab number is 99.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  Could we have a repeat of the articles of the

 5     constitution?  One of them is listed as 144, which in --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  104.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Okay.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, this is a report on inspection which was

10     shown to you by the Prosecution.  He asked you - the Prosecutor - "we

11     have spoken with you about" --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please slow down and start again.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, the interpreters need you to slow down

14     and start again, please.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Oh, I'm sorry.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis asked you:

17             "We have seen earlier in your testimony your role in the

18     commission that investigated certain activities of Mr. Kljajic and

19     Dragan Andan in Bijeljina, and the disciplinary proceedings against Andan

20     were launched pursuant to the conclusions of that commission.  Was any

21     commission established to investigate the work of Mr. Koroman that you

22     have any knowledge about?"

23             And your answer is:

24             "I spent the month of August in Bijeljina, possibly September,

25     too.  And then I briefly went to Pale and then returned to Bijeljina, and

Page 23546

 1     I cannot say with certainty whether the CSB did anything at all."

 2             It continues on page 23298.  This is again Mr. Hannis's question:

 3             "Mr. Koroman, to say the least, issued weapons.  Let me remind

 4     you those are the weapons that you spoke about that he gave to members of

 5     the Yellow Wasps.  I believe that the weapons are listed in the document

 6     that we have, and they include automatic weapons and even hand-held

 7     rocket-launcher, and nothing happened to him," meaning Mr. Koroman.  "Do

 8     you degree that this is disproportionate?"

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   No, that was Mr. Hannis's question.

11             And then, finally, page 23299:

12             "... if Mr. Koroman really issued weapons at the time ..."

13             And your reply:

14             "If Mr. Koroman really issued weapons at the time" -- this seems

15     to have been mistranslated so I'll read it in English.

16             [In English] "If Mr. Koroman did provide weapons at the time when

17     the public security department had information incriminating members of

18     Yellow Wasps, then that is certainly a more serious violation."

19             [Interpretation] Sir, we have seen that Mr. Dragan Andan was

20     sanctioned.  Disciplinary proceedings were initiated against him.  What

21     was his disciplinary offence; can you tell us?

22        A.   The disciplinary offence of Mr. Andan was the use of a device

23     without respecting the procedure that was in place in the ministry.  It

24     was not in line with the instruction on the conduct of crime enforcement

25     workers.

Page 23547

 1        Q.   Sir, was there a criminal offence of unauthorised possession or

 2     sale of weapons in the Criminal Code?

 3        A.   Yes.  Unauthorised trade in weapons.

 4        Q.   Was there a serious punishment envisaged [Realtime transcript

 5     read in error "alleged"] by the then legislation for that offence?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I see that the transcript reads

 8     "alleged"; whereas, I said "envisaged," or "stipulated."

 9        Q.   Tell me, if a -- if it were to be established for a MUP member

10     that he or she gave weapons, what's more automatic weapons, to some

11     persons without authorisation, would that be -- would that person be

12     liable to both disciplinary proceedings and criminal proceedings?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Let us go to the last page of this document, page 6.  And it's

15     item 2 of the conclusions of the inspector who drafted the report in

16     March 1992 [as interpreted].

17             It says:

18             "Once taken from the proposed Pale SJB employees, the statements

19     will have to be analysed for possible elements of crime, the crime

20     administration and the Sarajevo CSB senior officers informed accordingly,

21     and once criminal responsibility has been assessed, criminal reports

22     submitted to the competent prosecutor's office."

23             Do you agree with this conclusion or proposal of this inspector?

24        A.   This proposal is fair.  Once the facts have been established,

25     they're forwarded to the higher authority for -- to act upon and check

Page 23548

 1     the allegations.

 2        Q.   Was Mr. Koroman removed along with the senior officers of the

 3     Pale SJB?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   In what year was the -- were the proceedings for their removal

 6     initiated?

 7        A.   1992.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. HANNIS:  Can we have some clarification on what "removal"

10     means?  Removal from the position, or removal from the Ministry of the

11     Interior?  Because his previous evidence indicates that Mr. Koroman was

12     still working for the Ministry of the Interior.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, my question was precisely, was Mr. Koroman

14     removed along with the senior officers of the Pale SJB.  Removed from the

15     Pale SJB.  That's ... I wasn't suggesting that he was removed from the

16     MUP.

17             MR. HANNIS:  All right.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know if the Sarajevo CSB investigated

20     against the senior officers of the Pale SJB, including Mr. Koroman, and

21     if they filed a criminal complaint against anyone?

22        A.   I don't remember if a criminal complaint was submitted, but the

23     centre was duty-bound to conduct checks with regard to the allegations in

24     this report.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move onto another matter.

Page 23549

 1             Tell me, sir, do you know anything about the relation between

 2     Mr. Kovac and Mr. Trbojevic?

 3        A.   If memory serves, they were not very close, nor were they on

 4     friendly terms.

 5             MR. HANNIS:  May I inquire which portion of my cross-examination

 6     this arises from?  Can I have a page reference?

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] 23305.  It's in connection with the

 8     document I'm about to show the witness.  It's P192.

 9             The question was about that document.

10             MR. HANNIS:  Well, there's nothing in that document about a

11     conflict with Mr. Trbojevic and Mr. Kovac.

12             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I wasn't talking about a conflict.

13     I merely asked what their relationship was like, if the witness knew

14     anything about that.  You'll realise later why I asked that question once

15     we comment on the following document.

16             May the witness please be shown P192, which is OTP tab 86.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, just if I can have the instruction at

19     what time should we break?

20             JUDGE HALL:  Well, subject to the witness's disposition, we will

21     see if we could press straight through until the end because we expect

22     that that would permit to you finish.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I will try, do my best, Your Honours.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             MR. ZECEVIC:

Page 23550

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, are you ready to press on for another

 2     45 minutes?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, I am.

 4        Q.   Thank you very much.  Sir, you were shown this document.  You

 5     remember discussing it with Mr. Hannis; right?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Page 2, we see Mr. Tomo Kovac's signature.  He was assistant

 8     minister for police work and tasks.  You see that, don't you?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Can you please tell me how documents of the police duties and

11     tasks administration were marked?

12        A.   As far as I remember, they used number 3, to mark those

13     documents.

14             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please go back to page 1 of

15     this document?  Thank you.

16        Q.   This was sent to the president of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

17     and Herzegovina and the prime minister of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

18     and Herzegovina.  The date is the 8th of August, 1992.  It's marked as

19     10-239/92.

20             The number 10 there stands for what administration?

21        A.   The analytics administration.

22        Q.   Sir, as Mr. Hannis previously told you, the first paragraph of

23     this document shows Mr. Kovac as saying "I propose," and then, at the

24     very end, "I hereby present the problem in this way."

25             Sir, is it usual for positions of the ministry itself to be

Page 23551

 1     presented in the first-person singular?

 2        A.   No.  That is by no means common.  When state bodies exchange

 3     letters, unless obviously we are talking about an order, and the

 4     ministers would have the authority to order things like that.

 5        Q.   This letter was sent to the president of the Serbian Republic of

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the prime minister.

 7             Sir, there is no reference at all in this letter to a ministry

 8     position; rather, as I said, it was written in the first-person singular.

 9     Do you remember if the ministry, at one of its collegium meetings, ever

10     considered the issue of classifying arrested persons?

11        A.   Not as far as I know.

12        Q.   This document is dated the 8th of August; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] May the witness please be shown

16     P427.13.  P427, paragraph 13.

17        Q.   Sir, these are minutes of the 46th Meeting of the Government of

18     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on the

19     9th of August, 1992.

20             It reads -- the 9th of August, that is the date of this document.

21             It reads:

22             "The session was chaired by Milan Trbojevic, deputy prime

23     minister, and goes on to state that the session was also attended by so

24     on and so forth.  Tomislav Kovac, on behalf of Mico Stanisic, was

25     standing in for Mico Stanisic.  And it says:  "The following were absent

Page 23552

 1     and excused:  Branko Djeric," and other ministers there.  Do you see

 2     that?

 3        A.   Yes.  That's standard procedure as far as minutes such as this

 4     document were concerned, relating to government meetings.

 5        Q.   At page 3, item paragraph 12, which is the first paragraph there.

 6     And the first sentence reads --

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That would be page 4 in English.

 8        Q.   These are items on the government meetings agenda.

 9             Can you please confirm what paragraph 12 says, one of the items

10     on the agenda of that meeting?

11        A.   "Agreement including visits to the camps in the Serbian Republic

12     of BiH."

13        Q.   And then just in order to move onto paragraph 12, the English

14     there is correct.  And this is page 5 of the Serbian.  What is the

15     government's conclusion there?

16             You see, it says:

17             "The government set up two commissions comprising representatives

18     of the Ministry of the Interior and the justice ministry and the

19     administration.  The objective of the commissions is to gain insight

20     through the relevant state bodies into the status of people in

21     concentration centres and other collection facilities.  And also to speed

22     up the procedure of classifying these persons, as well as to establish

23     their responsibility and any punishment to be imposed."

24             Sir, who established these commissions?

25        A.   Based on what it says here, the government established

Page 23553

 1     two commissions.

 2        Q.   And what was the task that was given to these two commissions?

 3        A.   It was given by the government.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember if, at any collegium meetings back in

 5     1992, you reviewed any reports compiled by any commissions at all,

 6     specifically this one?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that, and I would have been present.  So I'm

 8     certain that no such thing occurred.

 9        Q.   At page 23325 you were previously shown a document, specifically

10     an order by the minister to disband the special units that had been

11     established during 1992.  Mr. Hannis says, I'll read in English:

12             [In English] "And the order to disband special units was not

13     issued because there were some reports about crimes committed by those

14     units or individuals from those units.  That was the only -- that was not

15     the only reason."

16             [Interpretation] That's actually part of your answer, sir.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Can have I the page reference again.  I'm not

18     finding it on page 23235.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  23325.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hannis goes onto say:

21             "I agree with you that that was perhaps not the only reason.  If

22     you agree with me that that was one of the reasons."

23             And then the discussion goes on.

24             Finally, Mr. Hannis's question, a question about -- he was

25     talking about an order by the president of the Presidency and an Assembly

Page 23554

 1     decision, so he showed you P199.  Please have a look, sir.  That's

 2     tab 115.  An Assembly meeting held between the 24th and 26th of July,

 3     1992.

 4             I suppose you don't have a copy of that.  That's an OTP document.

 5     You'll have to follow the document on your screen, sir.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 13, which

 7     is page 14 in e-court, in the Serbian.  The last paragraph, words uttered

 8     by Mr. Karadzic, his own contribution at that meeting.

 9             Mr. Karadzic says:

10             "One of the fundamental problems" -- that is the last paragraph.

11             I'll try and locate the right reference for the English.

12             Your Honours, I have not prepared the relevant references for the

13     English, and it's a lengthy document.  I will be coming back to that

14     later, probably tomorrow, at the start of our day tomorrow.  I may have

15     10 or 15 minutes left for tomorrow, first thing in the morning.  And now

16     I'll use something else instead, but I will have a printout of this for

17     you so that you can follow, because the print there is very small.

18        Q.   Page 23329 of the LiveNote, you spoke to Mr. Hannis about

19     Bosanski Samac and the replacement of Stevan Todorovic.  Do you remember

20     that, sir?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   The question was:

23             "Who had the authority to replace the chief of the public

24     security station, like, for example, Mr. Todorovic?  Would that have been

25     the head of the CSB or the minister, or both of them?"

Page 23555

 1             And then you say at page 23302:

 2             "I think I said that the minister transferred some of his powers

 3     to the CSB heads, in relation to the proposed appointments for leading

 4     positions in the public security stations, meaning the chiefs and other

 5     leading men in the stations."

 6             And then the key question, Mr. Hannis makes the following

 7     suggestion:

 8             "In the Law on Internal Affairs there was no provision preventing

 9     Mr. Bjelosevic from removing Mr. Todorovic; right?  It was a practical

10     problem, a political problem.  Political support or public support that

11     existed in Samac but there were no legal obstacles to that."

12             And then you say:

13             "As an economist, I will try to answer that question for you."

14             You remember that, sir?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   Sir, what about men in leading positions, such as the head of the

17     CSB?  Would these persons have any authority over members of the

18     Ministry of the Interior?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   What about CSB heads?  Would they have any authority, in terms of

21     working relations, in terms of disciplining people, over persons working

22     in other state bodies?

23        A.   Only if a criminal offence is committed, but no disciplinary

24     action.

25        Q.   Mr. Macar, do you know if Stevan Todorovic ever - when I say

Page 23556

 1     "ever," I mean 1992 - did Mr. Stevan Todorovic at any point in time

 2     throughout 1992 sign a contract to officially work for the Ministry of

 3     the Interior?

 4        A.   No.  And I think one of the reports that followed one of our

 5     visits actually reflects that.  He was hired by the Crisis Staff and not

 6     by the ministry.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]  1D518, please.  That's our next

 8     document.  A letter by the centre head, Andrija Bjelosevic.

 9        Q.   You see that it contains a remark and the document itself is

10     dated 25 November 1992.  It's addressed to the minister and says:

11             "We wish to mention that Chief Todorovic never received a

12     decision on assignment to these duties, and it was for this reason that

13     no disciplinary proceedings could be initiated against him."

14             Is this in keeping with the information you had from the reports

15     submitted to the MUP?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Then, in this case, if somebody acted as being in a certain

18     position but actually wasn't -- didn't have employment with the MUP at

19     all, did the chief -- did the chief of CSB --

20             MR. HANNIS:  I'm objecting because this is a leading question.

21     It needs to be phrased in a different way.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, is a CSB chief authorised, or has he any

24     authority over persons not employed with the MUP?

25        A.   No.  He couldn't take any action against them.  He could only try

Page 23557

 1     to create the pre-conditions for his replacement.  And when I say

 2     "pre-conditions," I'm referring to the local circles that appointed him

 3     so that there should be no problem with appointing somebody else.

 4             I don't know if I was clear enough.

 5        Q.   You have already spoken about that.  It's recorded.

 6             Sir, on page 23403, on the 15th of July, the Yellow Wasps

 7     operation was discussed, and Mr. Hannis put this to you:

 8             "Isn't it a fact that the leadership of the RS was much more

 9     interested in processing crimes such as thefts of Golf cars than in

10     processing any one Serb for crimes against non-Muslims?"

11             And then you replied:

12             "If it's referring to the Yellow Wasps, I don't know what the

13     grounds for your conclusions are."

14             And then, later, Mr. Hannis says:

15             "It turns out that, in spite of your initial information, the

16     subsequent information received from the military prosecutor's office" --

17                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, our impression is that the witness is

20     experiencing some discomfort.  We are wondering whether we should,

21     inasmuch as we have to return tomorrow in any event, whether we should

22     take the adjournment now.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  By all means, Your Honours.  It is up to the

24     witness.  I informed him that at any time he can --

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Macar.

Page 23558

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we continue tomorrow anyway,

 2     then, it's all right.  And we can take the adjournment.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So -- so if this is a convenient point, we can take

 4     the break now, Mr. Zecevic.  Or did you want to finish the question you

 5     were --

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  Perhaps if I can just finish this question.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] On page 23408, let us just finish this.

10             "As the information received from the military prosecutor's

11     office, as opposed to your initial information, pointed to the fact that

12     Vuckovic and other Yellow Wasps were not military persons.  And that's

13     why they ought to be prosecuted before civilian courts.  Were you aware

14     of that?"

15             And then you say:

16             "This document is dated 14 September.  It was not sent to the

17     MUP, and I'm not aware of this."

18             Sir, do you know if a criminal complaint for war crimes

19     eventually was submitted to a court in Serbia against these persons,

20     after all?

21        A.   Yes, I know.

22        Q.   Do you know which year that -- that was?

23        A.   In late 1992 or 1993, I don't recall.  But I do have information

24     that it was submitted to the relevant bodies in Serbia.

25        Q.   How was the jurisdiction of the court in Serbia established in

Page 23559

 1     the case against these persons?

 2        A.   It may have been based on their citizenship.

 3        Q.   Document 1D86.  I just want to show it to you.

 4             This is a criminal complaint.  You can see the date.  Which year

 5     is it?

 6        A.   1993.

 7        Q.   It's a criminal report against Dusan Vuckovic, Vojin Vuckovic and

 8     other members of the Yellow Wasps for war crimes, as we can read on

 9     page 1; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] For the Trial Chamber, the court

12     decision in this case is --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the document

14     reference.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, the interpreters need you to repeat the

16     reference to the document.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.  P1979.  It's the

18     decision of this Court in the case against Vojin and Dusan Vuckovic who

19     were convicted of war crimes.

20             Your Honour, I believe this is a convenient moment for an

21     adjournment.  I may have an additional 15 or 20 minutes tomorrow.  I'm

22     sorry, I really wasn't able to finish today.

23             I apologise to Mr. Macar.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So we reconvene tomorrow morning in this courtroom

25     at 9.00.

Page 23560

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.26 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of

 4                           July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.