Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23998

 1                           Tuesday, 13 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner and

12     Crispian Smith for the Prosecution.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

14     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery appearing for

15     Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

17     Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And --

19             Yes, Ms. Korner.

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Private session]

Page 23999

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12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning, General.  Before Ms. Korner continues,

18     I remind you of your solemn declaration.

19             Yes, Ms. Korner.

20                           WITNESS:  VIDOSAV KOVACEVIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

23        Q.   General --

24             JUDGE HALL:  I -- sorry.  I assume that you're -- there are no

25     continuing problems, but I would remind you what we said yesterday, that

Page 24000

 1     any time it is necessary to take a break, we would accommodate you.

 2             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   General, yesterday, towards the end of the session, I was asking

 6     how you arrived at your figure of only 3 per cent of the VRS being

 7     professionals, which was in the introduction to your report.  And you

 8     told us that you thought that you got it from the analysis of combat

 9     readiness, and you took a copy of that home.

10             So, having read that, can you tell us where you got the figure of

11     3 per cent?

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

13     the Prosecutor to quote the introduction verbatim, rather than paraphrase

14     the sentence in question and turn it about.  Because the introductory

15     part of the report says "up to 3 per cent."  And it hasn't been put like

16     that to the witness.

17             MS. KORNER:  Um, well, not in my translation it doesn't.

18             Can we have page 3 of the report, the introduction.  Oh, sorry,

19     yes.  No, no, sorry, the General's own report.  31D2, please.

20             Can we go to page 3 in English, please, and I think it's probably

21     the same page in B/C/S.  And could we highlight, please, the bottom half

22     of the second paragraph, paragraph 2.

23             And according to my translation, Mr. Krgovic, it says:

24             "In conditions of war and armed combat, these documents were

25     applied to military and police forces which consisted of mobilised people

Page 24001

 1     (only 3 per cent were professionals) ..."

 2        Q.   Now, General, could you read out, please, so that we can get a

 3     translation of the words in your report on that.

 4        A.   Ms. Korner, this is what my report says: These documents were

 5     applied in conditions of war and armed combat to military and police

 6     forces which consisted of mobilised people (only up to 3 per cent were

 7     professionals).

 8             MS. KORNER:  "Only up to 3 per cent."  Right, well, that's, I'm

 9     afraid, been missed out of our translation, Mr. Krgovic.  So perhaps you

10     might allow for that before you leap to your feet in indignation.

11        Q.   Right.  Anyhow, what I was asking you yesterday, which is why I

12     began this, is where you got the figure of 3 per cent from.  And you said

13     you thought from the combat readiness report.  Can you tell us whether

14     you found it?

15        A.   Ms. Korner, I have found it, and I would like the document that

16     you tendered yesterday to be displayed.  More specifically, page 71.

17        Q.   Just pause.  Pause.  We'll get up the document.

18             MS. KORNER:  It's, please, document number P1781.

19        Q.   And you say it's page 71 in the B/C/S, do you?

20        A.   Indeed.

21        Q.   What is it -- what's the number on the top, please.  Oh, I see it

22     now.  Okay.

23        A.   0 ...

24        Q.   Yes, it's all right.  I think we've got it.  That's the right

25     page that you're talking about it, is it?

Page 24002

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   All right.  And it's page 79 in the English.

 3             Can you tell us which paragraph?  Just read the beginning of the

 4     paragraph out.

 5        A.   "The actual manning of VRS unit with officers varies greatly, and

 6     according to operational formations is as follows."

 7             And we must scroll down now because the figures are to be found

 8     in the latter part.

 9        Q.   Right.  Which -- which paragraph?  Is that the one beginning, "in

10     total ..."

11        A.   Let me just go back for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

12             When we yesterday discussed the percentage of 3 per cent, you

13     showed the document which stated documents such as 50 per cent,

14     17 per cent, and so on, but the context is very different.  At the

15     beginning of --

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... sir, just pause because the

17     right page in English is not there.

18             MS. KORNER:  Could we go to the next page in English.

19        Q.   Yes, this is the part I was showing you yesterday, and I dealt

20     with the 1st Krajina Corps.  So what do you want to say about that?

21        A.   I want to say that the figures you showed and which is different

22     from mine is not what I was speaking about.  These figures here show

23     that, for example, the 1st Krajina Corps is -- has a manning level of

24     50 per cent.

25             But let me answer your question.  Where you can find the

Page 24003

 1     foundation for my assertion that the greatest number of soldiers were

 2     mobilised from the population, that there were very few active-duty

 3     professionals.

 4             The last -- the last bullet point of this paragraph which start

 5     with the words: "In total, in the Army of the RS, of the 14.541 officer

 6     establishment posts, 7287, or 51 per cent, are filled with officers, of

 7     whom" -- and now the essential bit follows: "1579 are active-duty

 8     officers."

 9             1579 out of these 7287.  That's a percentage of 22 per cent.  Of

10     the 12.032 non-commissioned officers, officers establishment posts, there

11     are 12.942.  That is more than planned, which is possible too.  But out

12     of these 12.942, only 1190 are active-duty NCOs, or, in terms of

13     percentage, 8 per cent of the overall number.

14             So, if we add that up, 1190 active-duty NCOs and 1579 active-duty

15     officers, we get a number of about 2669.  Only they are professionals.

16     Out of the total strength of the army which is something like 80.000 [as

17     interpreted].  That's not even 3 per cent.  That's about 1.6 per cent.

18     And that shows that what I state in my report is correct.

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I believe that the -- the -- the total

20     number, total strength of the army, is not properly recorded.  I believe

21     the witness said 180.000.

22             Maybe you can clarify that.

23             MS. KORNER:  Well, I rather feel that the witness ought to

24     himself have said it.  But never mind.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Ms. Korner, believe me, you can -- you can listen

Page 24004

 1     to the -- to the audiotape.  But ...

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Zecevic, but we have

 3     established that the witness should merely be asked to repeat the answer.

 4        Q.   All right.  What did you say, General?  Did you say, as

 5     Mr. Zecevic says, 180.000?

 6        A.   Exactly.  I said about 180.000 soldiers at the time this analysis

 7     was made.

 8        Q.   Right.  I regret to say, General, I haven't followed with the

 9     greatest understanding your mathematical calculations.  But just tell me:

10     Where does the figure of 3 per cent appear anywhere?  Because you've just

11     said it's not even 3 per cent, it's 1.6.  So how did you arrive at

12     3 per cent?

13        A.   Madam, I stated that the bulk of the army then was -- were

14     mobilised men from the population, and the essence is that there were

15     very few active-duty officers with or without a commission.  And I've

16     just found it in this analysis of combat readiness.

17        Q.   I'm sorry, found what?

18        A.   I don't understand.

19        Q.   Well, you said:  "I've just found it in this analysis of combat

20     readiness."

21             Do you mean you've found the figure of 3 per cent?

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, but I -- I believe the witness answered

23     and it wasn't recorded.  So perhaps the witness should be asked to speak

24     slower so the interprets can interpret what -- his answers.  Thank you.

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 24005

 1        Q.   General, you've heard that, which is a sensible, if I may say so,

 2     warning, because we've heard this before.  It's really important that you

 3     don't speak too quickly so the interpreters can keep up.

 4             Now, are you referring to the figure of 3 per cent?

 5        A.   Stating these figures and this information from the analysis of

 6     combat readiness, Ms. Korner, I have proved and confirmed that my

 7     assertion that the then-army at the beginning mostly consisted of

 8     mobilised men from the reserve force and only a small number of

 9     professionals.  And I include the percentage of up to 3 per cent.

10        Q.   All right.  22 per cent -- let's go back to the officers.

11             22 per cent were active officers; correct?

12        A.   Ms. Korner, 22 per cent active-duty officers calculated against

13     the total number of officers.

14        Q.   All right.  I don't think I'm going to waste more time on this,

15     because the figures speak for themselves.  You say that you worked that

16     out as 3 percent, and --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, I want to ask --

18             General, I want to ask you one question.  You said total strength

19     of the army 80.000 -- pardon?  180.000.  180.000.  Where do you get that

20     figure from?

21             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I think, we find that earlier.  There's

22     a total establishment.  In fact, I think it's more than that.  If

23     Your Honour goes to page 73.

24             Can we have page 73 up on the -- the page.  And it's, in B/C/S --

25     sorry, Your Honours, I'm not quite sure what it is in B/C/S.

Page 24006

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may help, Ms. Korner.

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Very grateful, General.  You tell me.

 4        A.   In the Serbian version, it's on page 68.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But then I don't understand - but it's perhaps my

 6     lack of understanding, how these figures on page -- what is it, 76 in the

 7     English text?

 8             MS. KORNER:  73.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  73.

10             MS. KORNER:  It's not the same --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No.  No, the ones we were just --

12             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- analysing a few minutes ago.

14             MS. KORNER:  Yeah, it's that one.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  - how these refer to 180.000.  What's the link

16     between?

17             MS. KORNER:  It doesn't.  This is what the General volunteered.

18     It doesn't refer to 180.000 in the previous text.  He gave that figure.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I mean, if we have to get to a percentage of

20     180.000, General, how do you -- how do you get that percentage by adding

21     up the numbers that you just added up, page, whatever page it was, the --

22     the officers and the --

23             MS. KORNER:  Page 80 in the English, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can you explain that to me?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

Page 24007

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ... I mean,

 2     we're -- what we are talking about is the number of non-professional

 3     people in the army.  And the total of 180.000, how many people were there

 4     that were not professional military men; right?

 5             So explain that to me, please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, answering Ms. Korner's

 7     question, I said that in the VRS, for the most part, there were reserve

 8     forces that were mobilised.  That there wasn't -- that there weren't

 9     enough professionals.  And on this page, where you see the table, you

10     will see the numbers for the active-duty personnel and the mobilised

11     personnel.  The active-duty personnel are officers and non-commissioned

12     officers.

13             If you add up the numbers for the professionals and the mobilised

14     force, you will get 180.000, which is a figure that's mentioned at a

15     number of places in this analysis.  And if my math is right --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't get the number of the --

17     the officers.  Could he please repeat.

18             MS. KORNER:

19        Q.   Just stop.  General, you're going too fast again.  The

20     interpreter missed the number you gave of the officers.

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             MS. KORNER:

23        Q.   Stop.  I'm sorry, General, we're not getting any translation at

24     all now.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Apologies.  The microphone was off.

Page 24008

 1             In the table that we saw at the beginning, it shows that ...

 2             Please continue, Witness.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I?

 4             Ms. Korner, in my previous explanation, I said that in the first

 5     document it is clearly stated in the latter part of the document that in

 6     the VRS at the time there were 2.669 active-duty officers, or

 7     professionals, if you will.  And all the rest were reserve forces and the

 8     rank and file.  These 2.669 represent a percentage of 1.5 of the overall

 9     strength of the army mentioned in this analysis which is about 180.000.

10             MS. KORNER:

11        Q.   Right.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MS. KORNER:  Now, can -- no, but let's have a look at this

14     figure.  Can we now look, please, at page 73 in English, and it's 65 in

15     B/C/S.

16        Q.   The second table on the B/C/S page, and the only table on the

17     English page, shows what the envisaged establishment strength was and the

18     actual establishment strength.

19             Now, the time that the figures that you have earlier discussed,

20     or talked about, it states, does it not, under total VRS, 214.121.

21             MS. KORNER:  Is there a problem?  I'm being waved at for some

22     reason.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ms. Korner, it is quite possible

25     that I was misinterpreted.  I said this was page 63.  I offered my help

Page 24009

 1     with that, or, rather, 68 in the Serbian and not 65.

 2             But we may as well go on and comment on page 65, as well, if you

 3     like.

 4             MS. KORNER:

 5        Q.   Well, that's what I'm asking you to comment.  That's, as far as I

 6     understand it, the overall total figure of the VRS in -- admittedly,

 7     February 1993.  We'll go back to the other one you mentioned, if you

 8     like.  That's at page 76 in English and page -- as I think the page you

 9     gave us, 68 in B/C/S.

10             Now, there you see a total of 182.000, which is the actual --

11     apparently the actual war establishment strength.  And it's -- the

12     earlier figure says actual establishment strength.

13             So what's the difference between the two figures, please?

14        A.   But I don't understand the question.  What is the difference?  I

15     said at the time that as far as I could tell the real establishment was

16     about 180.000.  And you can tell that by looking at the other part of

17     this form, where it says manning levels, actual ones, 182.000.  And the

18     preceding part of the document tells you about what it should have been

19     by the book, what the establishment was supposed to be in each of the

20     units.

21        Q.   Yes.  We fully understand -- I mean, that's what it says.

22     Envisaged and actual.  What I'm asking you about - if you can't explain

23     it, then say so, General - is the difference between the figure here,

24     which is shown as the total actual war establishment strength of 182.689,

25     95.7 per cent of what was intended, and the other figure, if we go back,

Page 24010

 1     please, to page 73 in B/C/S and 65 -- sorry, 73 in English and 65 in

 2     B/C/S, where it says the actual total was 214.000-odd.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we have that in English too,

 4     please.  Can we pull the image down a little so that we can see the title

 5     or the header over Figure 23.  Both for the witness's benefit, as well as

 6     the Chamber's.

 7             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry, I'm not talking about Figure 23; I'm

 8     talking about Figure 24.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ms. Korner, it is true, if you look

10     at a different spot in this table, the figure there is 214.021, that

11     being the actual strength.  Why is there a discrepancy between these two

12     figures?  We should probably ask whoever processed these figures.

13     Whichever figure you take, and then you take the figure that I spoke

14     about, it only proves my assertion.  There were very few professional,

15     commissioned officers in the VRS.

16        Q.   Yes.  But finally, General, because we really have spent a long

17     time on what should have been a very simple point.

18             The bulk of the Yugoslav armies was always made up, was it not,

19     from mobilisations, you told us yesterday?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   So there always were only a small percentage of - and I can't

22     give you an exact figure - a small percentage of those who were in a

23     mobilised army who were professional in the sense that they did nothing

24     else but military duties?

25        A.   In the JNA, all those employed there were professional military

Page 24011

 1     men.  They were employed by the JNA on a permanent basis.  There were

 2     some soldiers doing their regular military term, if that is what you had

 3     in mind.

 4        Q.   No.  By "professional," I understand the term to mean those whose

 5     career is in the military, not those doing national service, and not

 6     those who respond to mobilisation orders.

 7             Do you agree that is the definition of a professional officer?

 8        A.   Yes, that is right, Ms. Korner.

 9        Q.   And they were always, were they not, in the times of the JNA a

10     small proportion of the actual mobilised army?

11        A.   I don't know the exact percentage.  But if you mean those

12     permanently employed and citizens who came to the JNA to do their regular

13     military term, normally six, seven, eight, or even 12 months, at any

14     rate, the discrepancy was not small.  The ratio must have been like this.

15     The units and commands working with those young men had manning levels of

16     up to 100 per cent, all of these professional military officers, covering

17     all the various duties.

18             And there's one thing that I'd like to point out.  When the war

19     broke out, company commander level, even battalion commander level, you

20     would have someone occupying a very important post, and sometimes this

21     person was not fully professionally trained as a military man.  And these

22     people were now waging war.  That is why I said that at the outset there

23     were quite few professional soldiers involved.  That was what I was

24     trying to say when I asserted that in my report.

25        Q.   Yes, well, I really don't want to spend any more time on this,

Page 24012

 1     but I was not including those who did their military service.  But you've

 2     just stated that:

 3             "When the war broke out, company commander ... even battalion

 4     commander level, you would have someone occupying a very important post,"

 5     who "was not fully professionally trained?"

 6             Can you name, please, anybody that you say when the war broke out

 7     was in command of a battalion who was not a professionally trained

 8     soldier?

 9        A.   Ms. Korner, specific information can be found in the analysis of

10     combat readiness document, when they address issues to do with manning

11     levels of the VRS.

12        Q.   My question to you, sir, was whether you could name any officer

13     in command of a battalion who was not a professionally trained soldier --

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this line

15     of questioning.  Ms. Korner asked the question and the witness pointed

16     her to a source of information.  Therefore, if she insists on asking this

17     question, she should perhaps ask him where specifically he found this in

18     the document that he referred to.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Well, having regard to the witness's declared

20     experience, expertise, or knowledge, I don't see a problem with the

21     question.  If he's able to answer it.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  But she wants specific names.

23     And the witness said it's something from the analysis document.  And

24     again she wants specific names.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I don't see a problem.  Unless I'm missing

Page 24013

 1     something in your objection.

 2             Ms. Korner, please continue.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   I'm entitled to ask any question I like.

 5             Now, General, for the last time, please, can you name any officer

 6     you say was in charge of a battalion when war broke out - and by that I

 7     take it you mean June of 1991 - who was not an experienced military

 8     officer?

 9        A.   Ms. Korner, I wasn't talking about June 1991.  I'm talking about

10     when the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11        Q.   All right.  In April/May 1992, can you name an officer who was in

12     charge of a battalion who was not a professional military officer?

13        A.   Ms. Korner, I can't give you a specific name.  Nevertheless,

14     there were problems to do with manning levels and particularly

15     establishment posts.  I'm sure it's in the document that I referred to,

16     the analysis of combat readiness.  It's on the list of documents that I

17     attached to my report.

18        Q.   Yes.  Well, General, I'm sure there is.  And may I say, I don't

19     dispute that there were manning problems when the VRS was set up.  What I

20     am asking you about is your assertion that so few officers in charge were

21     professional.

22             Now we've dealt with that, and I'd like to move on, please, if at

23     all possible.

24             I want to ask you about something you said yesterday when dealing

25     with this issue, how professional or how many -- what the percentage of

Page 24014

 1     professional people were.

 2             You said - let me just find it - yes.  This is at the bottom of

 3     page 23995, when I was putting to you that you were wrong in respect of

 4     the 1st Krajina Corps when you said that the person -- most of the

 5     personnel was inexperienced and insufficiently trained for war.

 6             And you said:

 7             "I'm not wrong.  I'm an experienced officer with the highest

 8     military rank.  I know for sure that if they had all been well trained,

 9     there would not have been so many problems and so many cases of violation

10     of the international law of war."

11             What were you referring to when you said "so many cases of the

12     violation of the international law of war"?

13        A.   Ms. Korner, it's a well-known fact that in the war in the former

14     Yugoslavia crimes were committed against humanity, or, indeed, violations

15     of international law of war, which was one of the reasons that this

16     Honourable Tribunal was set up.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... [microphone not

18     activated] ... yes, but you were talking about, specifically --

19             It's on.

20             You were talking specifically about the VRS.  And so can you tell

21     us what incidents where the VRS were involved in international -- in

22     offences against international humanitarian law?  Crimes, sorry.

23             Well, let me put certain incidents to you.  Were you referring,

24     for example, to what happened at Srebrenica?

25        A.   Ms. Korner, I was referring to the fact that the discipline was

Page 24015

 1     poor.  Organisation was poor.  Manning levels were poor.  There was a

 2     shortage of professional military officers.  So all of these were some of

 3     the potential reasons that led to violations of international law of war.

 4        Q.   Yes.  But what you said was "so many cases of violation."  So I'm

 5     asking you now what you were thinking about or referring to there.  Was

 6     it Srebrenica?  Was that one of them?

 7        A.   Ms. Korner, I can't remember whether I said so many or how many.

 8     I am certain that I used the word "cases," though.  But the one thing

 9     that we do know is that quite a number of individuals have already been

10     tried before this Tribunal for violations of international law of war.

11        Q.   Yes.  Are you prepared to tell me, General, to what you were

12     referring by that answer yesterday?  Which specific incidents, if any?

13        A.   Ms. Korner, I wasn't referring to any specific incidents.  I was

14     talking in more general terms.  Things like that happened.  I was against

15     that such cases were tried, and that is precisely what we are discussing

16     today.

17        Q.   Let's move on.  Let's go back to your introduction, please.

18             MS. KORNER:  Could we have that back up on the screen.  31D2.

19     Page 3.

20        Q.   Let's go back to that very same sentence that we've just looked

21     at.  It starts:  "In conditions of war and armed combat, these

22     documents," namely, the SFRY documents, "were applied to the military and

23     police forces."

24             First of all, how do you know that the SFRY laws applied to

25     police forces?

Page 24016

 1        A.   Ms. Korner, all of the forces involved in the war, and I mean the

 2     Serbs, the Croats, the Bosniaks, all of them, had the same rules and

 3     regulations, both military and police.  All of them were unprepared for

 4     war.  And when the war broke out, the federal rules and regulations were

 5     still in force.  Nevertheless, all these groups gradually started

 6     adopting their own.

 7        Q.   Yes, sorry, but the question is simply this.  Because you told us

 8     earlier you weren't an expert in the police.  How do you know what

 9     documents applied to the police forces?  You haven't studied any

10     documents, had you?

11             MR. KRGOVIC:  Can Ms. Korner be specific in this case, because if

12     you look at this particular sentence ... I kindly ask Ms. Korner to pose

13     a question based on this particular page, not mislead the witness.

14             MS. KORNER:

15        Q.   You state that:  "In conditions of war and armed combat, these

16     documents were applied to the military and police forces ..."

17             My question to you is:  How do you know they applied to the

18     police force when you did not study the police documents?

19        A.   Ms. Korner, over the last couple of days, we discussed the Law on

20     Internal Affairs, or the Law on Defence, if I remember correctly.  There

21     are some transitional provisions there, in some law or other, and it says

22     that federal law provisions shall be applied in those segments not

23     regulated by internal rules, as I said in the paragraph before the one

24     that you quote.

25        Q.   Just a moment.  First of all, you were never shown the Law on

Page 24017

 1     Internal Affairs passed by the Republika Srpska, nor, according to your

 2     bibliography, did you look at it before you wrote this report.  Now, is

 3     that right?

 4             No, Mr. Zecevic, I know what he said.  I'm entitled to ask these

 5     questions without interruption.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I know.  I don't want to suggest anything to the

 7     witness.  But I don't think your question is fair.  That is the point.

 8     And if the witness can be excused, I can explain why.  And it's very

 9     clear.  You know very well why this is not a fair question.

10             MS. KORNER:  This is a -- well, Your Honours, I'm afraid to say,

11     it's no good Mr. Zecevic asserting that.  I do not know why it's not a

12     fair question.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Well, I'm going to ask the witness to be escorted

14     outside so I could hear Mr. Zecevic's objection.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may.

17             Your Honours, the witness -- Ms. Korner said the following:  "In

18     conditions of war" -- this is the question, page 18, 4:

19             "Let's go back to that very same sentence that we've just looked

20     at.  It starts: 'In conditions of war and armed combat, these documents,'

21     namely, the SFRY documents, 'were applied to the military and police

22     forces.'"

23             Question:

24             "First of all, how do you know that the SFRY laws applied to

25     police forces?"

Page 24018

 1             So on and so forth.  And then the witness answers.

 2             Now, Your Honours, the SFRY --

 3             MS. KORNER:  No, I'm sorry, no.  No.  Your Honours, I'm sorry,

 4     could Mr. Zecevic read out the witness's answer, because it's the basis

 5     of my following question.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  "Ms. Korner, all of the forces involved in the war,

 7     and I mean the Serbs, the Croats, the Bosniaks, all of them, had the same

 8     rules and regulations, both military and police.  All of them were

 9     unprepared for war.  And when the war broke out, the federal rules and

10     regulations were still in force.  Nevertheless, all these groups

11     gradually started adopting their own."

12             MS. KORNER:  No, Your Honours.  The question that was put to him,

13     you state, and this is at 18, line 23:

14              "You state that:  'In conditions of war and armed combat, these

15     documents were applied to the military and police forces ...'

16             "My question to you is:  How do you know they applied to the

17     police force when you did not study the police documents?

18             "A.  Ms. Korner, over the last couple of days, we discussed the

19     Law on Internal Affairs, or the Law on Defence, if I remember correctly.

20     There are some transitional provisions there, in some law or other, and

21     it says ... federal law provisions shall be applied ..."

22             Now, I was going to go through each of those sections because he

23     refers, first of all, to the Law on Internal Affairs, and I am entitled

24     to ask the question that I did.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm sorry, my -- then my -- I -- I wasn't

Page 24019

 1     given the opportunity to state my objection.

 2             My objection, Your Honours, was the following:  The expert speaks

 3     in his expert opinion.  He speaks about the federal laws, the laws of the

 4     former Yugoslavia, so the federal laws.  Now, the question by Ms. Korner

 5     is directed to the laws of RS.  So therefore - because this is not a

 6     legal expert, this is the army expert - she should point out the

 7     distinction or at least clarify with the witness what is the -- what is

 8     the question.  Whether the question pertains to the federal law or the

 9     laws of the Republika Srpska.  That is what I think is unfair.

10             That was my objection.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE HALL:  But I -- unless I'm wholly missing your point,

13     Mr. Zecevic, I -- I don't see how the approach -- your approach may have

14     been different, but the approach that Ms. Korner is taking is

15     objectionable [sic], and she should be permitted to continue.  I -- I

16     don't see a problem.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  Thank you very much.

18     And I'm sorry I made this intervention.

19             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

20             JUDGE HALL:  No apology is necessary.

21             MS. KORNER:  Well, it is, Your Honour.  I was accused of

22     deliberately doing something that I knew to be unfair, and I think an

23     apology is due.

24             Can I say one other thing, Your Honour.  This witness is

25     proceeding incredibly slowly; largely from what, I would suggest, are

Page 24020

 1     wholly unwarranted interruptions from the Defence.  And if it goes on

 2     like this, this witness will be taking until Friday.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Why I indicated that I didn't think it was necessary

 4     for Mr. Zecevic to apologise is that he perceived that the approach that

 5     you were taking is one where the witness would not have been as helpful

 6     as he could have been.  I didn't take your ancillary point about your --

 7     his suggestion that you were deliberately misleading the witness.

 8             So could we have the witness back on the stand.

 9             And I suppose I should add to the observation that Ms. Korner has

10     just made, that whereas while the Chamber, of course, is -- appreciates

11     the zeal of Defence counsel in the interests of their clients, counsel --

12     Defence counsel should be assured that the Chamber is alive to the

13     necessity to protect the witness from any unfairness on the part of

14     the -- of the counsel who is now on her feet.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             MS. KORNER:

17        Q.   Right, General, this is a simple question:  Have you ever looked

18     at the Law on Internal Affairs passed in March of 1982 which regulates

19     the conduct of police during the course of its duties?

20        A.   Ms. Korner, to explain, and that was my task, the use of the

21     police in combat activities, I perused military rules and regulations

22     because that was the only way I could shed light on the problem.  I did

23     not deal with the Law on Internal Affairs.

24        Q.   Right.  Well, come on to it later, but as you yourself pointed

25     out in your paragraph 22, I think it is, it was quite complicated to work

Page 24021

 1     out the role of the police in combat because the only law that seems to

 2     deal specifically with it, at that period of time, is the Law on

 3     National Defence, passed in 1982; is that right?

 4             No, you needn't look up the paragraph, General, because we're

 5     going to come to it.  But as a general, overall picture, is that correct?

 6        A.   It is correct.  I wasn't listening carefully, but I believe

 7     you're right.

 8        Q.   Yes, it's important, General, not to start flicking through your

 9     report.  I promise you that I'm not going to miss out anything that you

10     consider important.  And in any event, Mr. Krgovic has a chance to

11     re-examine you.  So please listen to the question, and don't go through

12     your report.

13             Now, can we just look at two other matters, please, in this

14     introductory paragraph.

15             You say that - going back to the same sentence:  "In conditions

16     of war and armed combat, these documents were applied to military and

17     police forces which consisted of mobilised people, only up to 3 per cent

18     were professionals, who had a very low level of discipline."

19             Who had a very low level of discipline?  The professionals, the

20     reservists, the mobilised forces, who?

21        A.   Ms. Korner, I meant, and gave a general assessment of the

22     situation, that the level of discipline in the VRS was low.

23        Q.   Right.  And can you tell us, please, what you base that

24     assessment on; is it in a document?  You're talking to other people?  Or

25     your own personal experience in the months until you left?

Page 24022

 1        A.   Ms. Korner, I believe that such an assessment can also be found

 2     in the analysis of the combat readiness of the VRS.  The information I

 3     found there, that, during one year only, about 4.000 criminal reports

 4     were filed, speaks for itself as regards the level of discipline in that

 5     army at that time.

 6        Q.   All right.  Then you said:  "We go back to the untrained and

 7     inexperienced commanding officers."  And I dealt with that yesterday.

 8             "... poor internal communications."

 9             What do you mean by that?

10        A.   Ms. Korner, it is a well-known fact that in every war

11     communication is difficult for a number of reasons, but there was also

12     poor communication between individual commanders --

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... yeah, I'm sorry --

14        A.   -- at various levels.

15        Q.   Well, every war may be every war.  Specifically this is meant to

16     be dealing with the VRS.

17             Why do you say there was poor internal communication?

18        A.   Because I say that communication lines were interrupted, and

19     that's a well-known fact, I believe.  Roads were blocked.  It wasn't

20     possible to go to the units and exercise control, see what the situation

21     was like, and so on.  I believe I know what war is.

22        Q.   Well, yes.  But you may know what war is, but this is specific.

23     On what do you base your assertion that communication -- that there was

24     poor internal communication, in other words, presumably from the lower

25     units to the brigades, to the corps, to the Main Staff?

Page 24023

 1             Are you just guessing because of what you say is your knowledge

 2     of war?

 3        A.   I'm not guessing.  I'm making an assertion.  And I stand by what

 4     I stated here, Ms. Korner.

 5        Q.   Well, I know you're making an assertion, but I'm asking you on

 6     what you base this assertion.  And we're going to look at some documents

 7     in a moment.

 8             But I'm just asking you now: On what do you base this assertion?

 9        A.   I said, on my experience and on the documents I read.  I cannot

10     remember specifically which document that was.  But there must be

11     instances of poor internal communications between individual commanders

12     who, for example, were appointed by Crisis Staffs but weren't even JNA

13     members, although there were JNA members who weren't well-accepted in the

14     field.  And examples of that can be found in documents.  I'm sure that

15     some of these documents are mentioned in my bibliography.

16        Q.   Yes.  Well, you don't, actually.  But the -- can you see the

17     importance, I hope, General, for further reference, of footnoting, as you

18     write a report, what you're basing it on.

19             All right.  Let's have a look at some of the documents that

20     relate to the 1st Krajina Corps, for example.

21             MS. KORNER:  Can we have up on the screen, please, document

22     number -- it's 20 -- 65 ter 20225.  And it's tab 12.

23        Q.   Right.  Have you ever seen this document before?

24        A.   I don't remember, Ms. Korner.

25        Q.   It is, in fact, the -- as we can see, the duty team daily notes

Page 24024

 1     on the situation on the battle-field and in the zone of responsibility,

 2     and it comes from the 1st Krajina Corps.

 3             Were you aware --

 4             MR. KRGOVIC:  Is Ms. Korner testifying?  Where is that, that this

 5     document is 1st Krajina Corps?  In the document, can we find the

 6     reference?

 7             MS. KORNER:  Is there a dispute that this document comes from the

 8     1st Krajina Corps?  And it becomes absolutely apparently as you go

 9     through it.  If there's a dispute, I'll certainly call a witness.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know that this

11     document was disclosed for cross-examination, so the Prosecutor should

12     ask the witness if he has seen it and if he can conclude what it's about.

13     I cannot tell, based on what I see, that this is a document of the

14     1st Krajina Corps.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, this document, along with the whole of

16     the 1st Krajina Corps collection, has been in EDS for some time.  It has

17     not been used so far because it was not thought necessary to use it so

18     far.  In case the Defence had not been through it, we disclosed it in

19     advance of cross-examination.  And if, as I say, there is a dispute that

20     this is a 1st Krajina Corps document, then I will call a witness to deal

21     with the recovery of this document.

22             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but, madam, you are testifying

23     when you're saying this is a document of the 1st Krajina Corps.  That is

24     not appropriate.  You should show something to the witness which -- out

25     of which it clearly follows that it's a document of the 1st Krajina

Page 24025

 1     Corps, instead of making an assertion.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, that's the whole point.  If

 3     Mr. Krgovic is genuinely disputing that this is a document of the

 4     1st Krajina Corps, then, as I said, I will call evidence.  I will move

 5     on.  I will not ask about this document until I've called evidence to

 6     show that, although by reading through the document you can tell it's the

 7     1st Krajina Corps.  But that's what I will do.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Krgovic, your objection -- your

 9     observation - let me use that word - that it had not been disclosed to

10     the Defence previously, what do you say about Ms. Korner's response?

11     Because the -- the -- whereas as I understand the -- your objection to be

12     that she is now saying what this document is although it is a matter in

13     dispute, what her response is that she would -- and these are my words,

14     not hers, is that the document speaks for itself and that save for your

15     objection now voiced, there would have been no dispute as to what this

16     document is.

17             So I come back to my basic question about -- she says you've had

18     it and ought to have seen and ought to be familiar with its contents.

19     That's essentially what she's saying.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  But when

21     Ms. Korner says that this is a document of the 1st Krajina Corps, we see

22     some dates at the beginning, and those dates were from a time when there

23     was no 1st Krajina Corps.  And that is the point.

24             The document -- the fact that the document was disclosed in EDS

25     does not mean that we are necessarily familiar with the document.  That's

Page 24026

 1     why I cannot say or readily accept that this a document of the

 2     1st Krajina Corps, given that according to me it does not follow from the

 3     document.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  [Previous translation continues] ... so now we

 5     understand and Ms. Korner appreciates that there is a dispute about this,

 6     and as she said, it's something to which she will have to return.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes, she may ask questions

 8     and establish through the witness.

 9             MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... no, no, first of

10     all, Your Honour, we sent this.  It's not right that it's just on EDS,

11     because having read his report it was clear that I was going to be asking

12     about communications.  We disclosed, even though it was on EDS, in

13     advance of even handing over our list of documents.  And Mr. Smith is

14     just looking up the batch in which we disclosed it.

15             Second, and I couldn't believe I was hearing what I heard, the

16     dispute is that it's the 1st Krajina Corps which wasn't in existence when

17     it began.  That's absolutely correct.  It was the 5th Krajina Corps of

18     the JNA, transformed into the 1st Krajina Corps after the declaration of

19     the VRS.  And the documents, as Mr. Krgovic knows, all the documents,

20     were recovered when the headquarters of the 1st Krajina Corps were

21     searched in 1998 in Banja Luka.

22             But, Your Honours, as I say, I'm perfectly happy.  I will move on

23     to another document.  I will ask for Your Honours' leave to call evidence

24     after lunch -- after lunch.  After the break -- to establish that's where

25     it comes from, and then we can go back to it.

Page 24027

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2             It was actually, in fact, it was a footnote in Mr. Brown's report

 3     and it was disclosed to the Defence in 2008.

 4             Is there anything else I need to say on this document?

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, where did you see the dates on this

 7     document?

 8             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] -- we'll go to the next

 9     page.

10             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you look at the

11     first page, you can see that the date is the 20th of April.  And then

12     when you move on, it's the 22nd of February, 1992.  0941336 is the page

13     reference.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.  Very well then.  But do you still

15     wish to contest that this is what it appears to be?

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have a

17     problem with that.  But the Prosecutor must somehow establish through the

18     witness that it's a document of the 5th Krajina Corps.  Whether it was

19     recovered in the archives of the 1st Krajina Corps or of the archives of

20     the VRS is not so important.  But when Ms. Korner makes a reference, the

21     reference should be appropriate, and the Prosecutor mustn't be allowed to

22     testify.

23             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Obviously, Mr. Krgovic, the witness will most

24     likely be unable to confirm that this is what it appears to be, because

25     he says that he hasn't seen it.

Page 24028

 1             So the issue now before us is whether you insist that Ms. Korner

 2     should call another witness to confirm --

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MS. KORNER:  In that case, with Your Honours' leave, maybe

 7     tomorrow morning I'll do it, and I'll come back to this document.

 8        Q.   Let's look at some other documents, please, that deal with the

 9     communication that you say, the -- the poor internal communication.

10             Can we look now, please, at document -- I'm now going to show you

11     a series of reports from the 1st Krajina Corps which I don't think there

12     can be any dispute about.

13             MS. KORNER:  P1809, please.  And it's 23 of the Prosecution list.

14             Sorry, 23 -- it's 23A.

15        Q.   Now, this document, first of all, have you ever seen this one

16     before?

17        A.   I may have.  A great many documents are cited in Mr. Brown's

18     footnotes.  But I have no problem with commenting on it.

19        Q.   No, no, just a moment, please.  Forget that you read Mr. Brown's

20     report over the weekend and that it was clear that he had looked at all

21     these documents.  I'm asking whether you had looked at this particular

22     document before, whether you'd been given it or were aware of it.

23        A.   I don't remember, Ms. Korner.

24        Q.   Well, it's not referenced in your report, is it?

25        A.   To answer that, I would have to look at my report.  I don't

Page 24029

 1     really remember all the documents that I used.  It was six months ago,

 2     Ms. Korner.

 3        Q.   Well, you can check your report on the break, if you like.

 4             All right.  Now, this is a document, do you agree, that --

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Ms. Korner, since you're about to go into

 6     this, should we take the break?

 7             MS. KORNER:  Certainly, yes.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  So we return in 20 minutes.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if I may, while the witness is

13     ushered in, if I may just make a couple of comments concerning the

14     transcript, some clarifications in the transcript.

15             On page 21, I made an inappropriate comment, and I would like to

16     put on the record that I apologise to Ms. Korner.  I completely

17     misunderstood her question and I don't think it was appropriate, and,

18     moreover, I was totally wrong.  That's why I wanted to put this on the

19     record.

20             The second thing is that I was recorded as saying "I'm sorry I

21     made this intervention."  What I meant to say was that I'm sorry that I

22     caused this pause in the cross-examination and need of the witness to

23     leave the courtroom, which took some time.  That is what I wanted to say.

24             Thank you very much, Your Honours.  Sorry.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Mr. Zecevic.

Page 24030

 1             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, can I thank Mr. Zecevic for his very

 2     handsome apology, if I may say so.

 3             And, of course, we will understand in the heat of the moment

 4     sometimes things get heated.

 5             Can I just go back, however, to the document which we say comes

 6     from the 1st Krajina Corps.

 7             Mr. Zecevic has had an opportunity to look at it over the

 8     adjournment, as indeed I have, and -- in more detail, and I would suggest

 9     it's as plain as a pikestaff it's a corps document, and I wonder whether

10     Mr. Zecevic might now withdraw his objection.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic or Krgovic?

12             MS. KORNER:  I'm so sorry.  Mr. Krgovic, not Mr. Zecevic.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, looking at this, I've

14     had a look, there are references there to some units that were part of

15     the 5th Corps or the 1st Krajina Corps, as the case may be.  I don't wish

16     to make this any more difficult than necessary in a procedural sense, but

17     the essence of my objection is:  When Ms. Korner asks the witness a

18     question, when she makes reference to a particular document, can she

19     please tell him such and such a document without necessarily suggesting

20     what it is.  That is the essence of my objection.  Everything else stems

21     from that objection.

22             As far as this is concerned, I'm happy to withdraw my objection.

23     But we would like to have a very specific reference in as far as possible

24     when a document is quoted.

25             Thank you very much.

Page 24031

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, thank you.  In fact, I think it's

 3     a document that I'm going to have to invite the General to have a look at

 4     again overnight, because it's a lengthy document.  So I'll come back to

 5     it probably tomorrow morning.  Yes, thank you, Your Honours, that's all

 6     that I --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Tomorrow afternoon.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Tomorrow afternoon, I know.  This week is really

 9     confusing.

10             JUDGE HALL:  Could the witness be conducted back to the stand,

11     please.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   Yes.  Now, General, before the break we were about to look at

15     this document.

16             Now, you can't remember whether you've ever seen this document

17     before.  I would suggest you probably haven't.  But it's the sort of

18     report that you're very familiar with, isn't it?  It's the report by an

19     assistant commander for morale, guidance, and legal affairs.

20             MS. KORNER:  If we look at the last page, please, in both English

21     and B/C/S.  Sorry, not the last page.  It's the penultimate -- second

22     page in B/C/S and fourth page in English.

23        Q.   It's a report signed by Colonel Milutin Vukelic, assistant

24     commander for morale, guidance, and legal affairs.

25             First, did you know him?

Page 24032

 1        A.   Ms. Korner, a person by that name was a lecturer at the high

 2     political school in the JNA when I started attending before the war.

 3     This is something that I've already told you about.

 4             So if we're talking about the same person, in that case, yes, I

 5     do know him.

 6        Q.   Right.  I have no idea whether he taught.  But is he now dead,

 7     this person you're talking about? because I would suggest to you this

 8     Colonel Vukelic is.

 9        A.   I am not aware of that.  And if that indeed is the case, I can

10     only say I'm very sorry.

11        Q.   Can we go back, please, then, to the contents of this report

12     briefly.

13             MS. KORNER:  So back to the first page, please.

14        Q.   Now, this is Colonel Vukelic giving an overview of the political

15     and security situation in the Bosnian Krajina.  And he deals in the first

16     paragraph, as we can see, with the beginnings of the -- the -- well, he

17     talks about the present situation, started after the energetic

18     involvement of the Serbian Republic army in the area of Kljuc,

19     Sanski Most.  He goes on to deal with Hambarine.

20             Does the attack on Hambarine mean anything to you, General?  Do

21     you know anything about it?  Or Kozarac?

22        A.   I heard about it, but I wasn't there and I wasn't involved.

23        Q.   No.  I know you weren't there and I know you weren't involved.

24     I'm asking you whether you know the details of this operation at all from

25     your preparations for this report.

Page 24033

 1        A.   Ms. Korner, I didn't analyse events or, indeed, documents that

 2     were produced on the ground.  My primary task was to analyse the rules

 3     and regulations in order to prove how it was possible to use police in

 4     combat operations.

 5        Q.   Yes.  As we've already established, and we'll go on with it, your

 6     report goes a great deal further than that and in particularly in the

 7     introduction.

 8             MS. KORNER:  Can we go to the next page, please, in English.  And

 9     I believe it's -- we're still on the same page - yes - in ...

10        Q.   He then talks about Prijedor being under the control of the

11     Serbian Ministry of Interior and "our own armed formations."

12             He talks about Vlasic, the political situation in

13     Bosanska Gradiska, and so on.

14             MS. KORNER:  Could we go to the next page in B/C/S, please.

15        Q.   No major changes in Derventa.

16             And a light brigade is being formed.

17             MS. KORNER:  Next page, please, in English.

18        Q.   And there we see he's talking about conscripts.  "The Autonomous

19     Region of Krajina Assembly has taken all possible measures to remove from

20     important posts those persons who have failed to meet their obligations,"

21     so on and so forth.

22             "Most of the officials relieved of office are Muslims and Croats,

23     but there are also some Serbian degenerates."

24             I know you didn't write this report.  Can you tell us what you

25     understand him to be saying when he's referring to "Serbian degenerates"?

Page 24034

 1             General?

 2        A.   Ms. Korner, I don't quite see that in the original, not the word

 3     "degenerate."

 4             If we're talking about the paragraph that begins with the

 5     following words: "The AR Bosnian Krajina assembly has taken all possible

 6     measures," and so on and so forth.

 7        Q.   Let's just make sure the translation's correct.  Could you read

 8     out the last sentence of that paragraph so we can get a translation.

 9        A.   Ms. Korner, the last sentence of the paragraph reads: "Most of

10     those relieved of their duties are Muslims and Croats, but the group also

11     includes Serb misfits or renegades."

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It's a term that's quite

13     ambivalent and very difficult to interpret.

14             MS. KORNER:  Right.

15             Well -- sorry, I think what the interpreter's said has just

16     actually not -- been missed out of the transcript as well.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF: [Microphone not activated] "Misfits or renegades."

18             MS. KORNER:  "Mis--" right.  Thank you.

19        Q.   Well, what do you -- well, as I say, I agree you didn't write

20     this report, but can you, from your experience at this period, this is

21     May, tell us what he was referring to by "Serb misfits or renegades"?

22        A.   Ms. Korner, when we use this word "izrod," normally we refer to a

23     person who is not a patriot, not loyal to his own people.  This means

24     that the persons that's described did not comply with certain rules or

25     regulations or, indeed, refused to join certain defensive operations or

Page 24035

 1     refused to be involved in the defence of the Serbian people.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Next paragraph, and it's worth perhaps reading this

 3     one in full.

 4              "Primarily due to exceptional combat readiness, but also the

 5     patience of the troops, the positions previously secured and relative

 6     peace have been preserved in the Western Slavonian theatre of war.  After

 7     the arrival of the UNPROFOR forces, we expect to have all our forces from

 8     that area engaged in the Bosnian Krajina theatre of war in the coming

 9     days, thus strengthening and securing the endangered territory of the

10     Serbian Republic of BH."

11             Do you accept that, here, Colonel Vukelic is explaining that

12     there are going to be battled-seasoned troops coming to reinforce the

13     troops already in the Krajina?

14        A.   Ms. Korner, I am really unable to answer that question.  I'm

15     afraid it's an interpretation issue yet again.

16             As far as I can tell, by looking at the original, the original

17     reads:

18             "Over the next few days, we expect that all of our forces from

19     this area will be sent to the Bosanska Krajina theatre of war, following

20     the arrival of UNPROFOR, thereby reinforcing and securing the area of the

21     Serbian Republic of BH which is currently at risk."

22             I don't see the involvement of the two armies or anything like

23     that.  I'm not sure I understood your question correctly.

24        Q.   General, it may well be an interpretation problem.  I asked you

25     whether from that paragraph it was clear that the troops who were at this

Page 24036

 1     time in the Krajina were going to be reinforced by troops coming from

 2     Western Slavonia who had - I said battled-seasoned - but who had been in

 3     battle?

 4        A.   Ms. Korner, that's not what I see here.

 5        Q.   All right.  Well, I suppose you better tell us what you do see.

 6     What is your interpretation of this paragraph?

 7        A.   Well, I have read it out loud already, and all I can tell is they

 8     appear to be expecting that those forces would be engaged in the

 9     Bosanska Krajina theatre of war over the following days.  There is no

10     reference to any other forces there from Western Slavonia that I can see.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's move on, then, please.  Could you look at the

12     next page, and let's see if you accept that.

13             MS. KORNER:  Next page in English, and it's the same page in

14     B/C/S.  Maybe this will make it clear.

15        Q.   "Krajina troops tested in the Western Slavonian theatre of war

16     will form the core of safety and security in the Bosnia [sic]

17     Krajina ..."

18             Does the word "tested in the Western Slavonian theatre of war" to

19     you suggest that they have been fighting?

20        A.   Ms. Korner, if my impression is correct, and I did look at the

21     last page of this document, this report was meant for the subordinate

22     units.  We have the assistant commander for morale --

23        Q.   Yes, I'm sorry, I'm going to come on to exactly who this went to,

24     but please just concentrate on that paragraph.

25             Now, does that suggest to you that the troops who were arriving

Page 24037

 1     had been in battle?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right, Ms. Korner.

 3        Q.   Right.  And you see, it doesn't square, does it, with your

 4     assertions that these troops were untrained, inadequate, if you like,

 5     non-professional soldiers?

 6        A.   Ms. Korner, this assertion is only in reference to a part of the

 7     Krajina Corps, a part of its composition.  If you look at the VRS as a

 8     whole, at the time, and we're looking at late May, there were a total of

 9     seven other operative components.  It's impossible to take only one of

10     these and, based on that limited sample, claim that all the other

11     components had the same sort of battle seasoning or company experience in

12     combat that you claim they did have.

13        Q.   No, I'm not suggesting that for one moment, General.  I accept

14     entirely that not all the corps that were formed had the same level of

15     manpower, equipment, and professional soldiers as did the

16     1st Krajina Corps.  But the 1st Krajina Corps, I'm going to suggest to

17     you, is what you should have been looking at, given the terms your

18     report.

19             Now, can we turn, please, to the distribution list.  Is it right

20     that the distribution list is for those units or officials for whom this

21     report is intended?

22             Is that right, General?

23        A.   Ms. Korner, as a rule, each document should have a list of

24     addressees.

25        Q.   Yeah.  And it's the persons who are to be affected by the

Page 24038

 1     contents of the document or who are to be informed; is that right?

 2             I say "persons."  Units, I should say.

 3        A.   Yes, that's true.  If, indeed, the document reaches all of the

 4     units named in the list, and if the commanders of these units are able to

 5     have the documents delivered to all of the soldiers out there, some in

 6     the trenches and some out in the woods, if all of that applies, in that

 7     case, what you say is true.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Well, that's another point, isn't it?  This is very early

 9     on in the conflict, and there's a full report about everything, in

10     summary, that's been happening over this period from Colonel Vukelic

11     distributed to all the subordinate units; is that right?

12        A.   Yes, Ms. Korner.

13        Q.   Let's leave that document and let's, please, go to a series of

14     reports around the same time.

15             MS. KORNER:  Please can we look next at document P1745.7, tab 24.

16        Q.   This is a -- sorry -- a 1st Krajina Corps report, is that right,

17     which is reporting or it is a report, I'm sorry, to the

18     1st Krajina Corps, I think, on what's called the elimination of the

19     Green Berets in the wider area of Kozarac village?  And it discusses

20     that.

21             And then in paragraph 2 it says:

22             "Participating in the armed conflict on our side were components

23     of the 343rd Motorised Brigade (an enlarged motorised battalion)

24     supported by two 105-millimetre Howitzer batteries and one M84 tank

25     squadron."

Page 24039

 1             Was the M84 a modern tank?

 2        A.   Ms. Korner, at the beginning, possibly due to the interpretation,

 3     I believe you said this was a report sent to the corps.  What I see when

 4     I look at this document is that it is a report which the corps command is

 5     sending to the Main Staff of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   You're quite right.  It's my mistake.  It's from the

 8     1st Krajina Corps to the Main Staff.

 9             Now can we go back to the question I asked.  Is the M84 a modern

10     tank?

11        A.   M84 is a modern tank.  Nevertheless, may I just add that it is by

12     no means forbidden to get these involved in combat.  The only thing that

13     is banned is everything that runs counter to international law of war.

14        Q.   I'm not -- I think it's right that you are unaware, General, of

15     the detail - I think you've said this already - you were unaware of the

16     detail of what happened in Kozarac at the end of May; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.

18        Q.   And can you tell us, please, how many are in a tank squadron?

19        A.   There should be two in a tank squadron, as far as I know.  But

20     obviously it all depends on the manning levels of the units in question.

21        Q.   Well, is it two or more -- or may it be more than two?  I mean,

22     General, you're the expert on weaponry and military things in general.

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  Could Ms. Korner please repeat the question.

24             MS. KORNER:  Yes, certainly.

25        Q.   How many --

Page 24040

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  Or allow the witness to read the specific part,

 2     because I think that it's -- the word "squad" is slightly differently

 3     translated.

 4             MS. KORNER:  All right.

 5        Q.   End of paragraph 2, what does it say?

 6        A.   Ms. Korner, this reads: "A platoon of M84 tanks."

 7             A platoon is a unit that's one level higher than a squad, if I

 8     understood the interpreters correctly.

 9        Q.   All right.  Can you tell us, please, how many people are in a

10     platoon of tanks?

11        A.   The number of people in any unit is established in the book of

12     military establishment so that the number varies.  But there can be 20 to

13     40 people in a squad.

14        Q.   A squad or a platoon?

15             THE INTERPRETER:  A platoon.  Interpreter's correction.

16             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

17        Q.   And how many tanks?

18        A.   A platoon can have four to six tanks, in theory.

19        Q.   Yes.  Going on, then, to this report -- through this report.  It

20     talks about, in paragraph 4, overall results.  Eighty to a hundred

21     Green Berets killed and about 1.500 captured.

22             In your experience, in your military experience, General, is that

23     a large number to be captured, of fighting men, Green Berets?

24        A.   Well, Ms. Korner, that's relative.  I don't know how combat

25     operations went.  But in item 2 of this report, I see that some

Page 24041

 1     components of the 343rd Motorised Brigade took part, which is rather

 2     vague.  We don't know which components.  They were reinforced by a

 3     battalion and supported by two Howitzer batteries and a tank platoon.  So

 4     speaking about the number of people captured in combat, it's a relative

 5     number.

 6        Q.   Well, would you -- relative to what?  Would you agree that

 7     it's -- it's -- it must have been an imbalance in the size of the forces

 8     to allow 1.500, allegedly, fighting men to have been captured?

 9        A.   Ms. Korner, that need not always be the case.

10        Q.   All right.  Can we then just quickly go over the page in this

11     report, please, because we see there the 1st Krajina Corps is listing its

12     strength, going back to what we said this morning.  This is in May.

13             And I suppose I should have asked you this before, General:  Had

14     you seen this document before you wrote your report?

15        A.   I don't think so, Ms. Korner.

16        Q.   Well, if we look very briefly, please, at this, we see that

17     according to this report they have 92 per cent, I think it is -- no,

18     sorry.  They have 86 per cent of the officers they should have.  The

19     command unit is overstaffed, apparently, 138.  The scout, 99 per cent.

20     Radio reconnaissance platoon is quite low.  But, as I say, going through

21     this quickly.  Overstaffed is the nuclear biological chemical defence

22     company; 7, overstaffed is the communications; 8, well overstaffed is the

23     military police.  And then so on and so forth.

24             Do you see those figures for May?

25        A.   I do.

Page 24042

 1        Q.   All right.

 2        A.   I can see them, Ms. Korner, and I'll gladly comment when you let

 3     me.

 4        Q.   Certainly.  You can say what you like.

 5        A.   Ms. Korner, it is possible that something is being

 6     misinterpreted.  I don't think that this is your intention.  Possibly you

 7     don't understand me.  This is not [Realtime translation read in error

 8     "this is"] the manning level I am discussing in my report.

 9             What you see here is the manning level according to the military

10     establishment book.  Here, you cannot see who the active-duty officers

11     are and who the reserve forces are.  In the analysis of combat readiness

12     of the VRS, which includes the entire army, I found the information that

13     there were only 2669 [Realtime translation read in error "26069"]

14     active-duty officers.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, line -- page 43, 14, I believe the

16     witness's answer was in negative, was in negative.  "Not."  Not

17     affirmative.  I don't want to ...

18             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

19             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yeah, he said "this is not."  Maybe you can

20     clarify.

21             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, he said, in

22     line 14:  "Possibly you don't understand me.  This is ... the manning

23     level I have been discussing in my report."

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

25             MS. KORNER:  Sorry.

Page 24043

 1             Sorry, line 14: "Possibly you don't understand me -- "

 2             Oh I see, "this is not."  I follow.

 3        Q.   General, did you say "this is not the manning level I discussed

 4     in my report"?

 5        A.   Exactly, Ms. Korner.  This overview presents a different type of

 6     manning with regard to the military establishment book.  From this, you

 7     cannot tell how many active-duty officers there are and how many reserve

 8     forces.

 9        Q.   Well, I agree, they don't specify.  But they're saying these --

10     this is the force which is available to us, aren't they, effective

11     strength?

12        A.   I agree with you, Ms. Korner.

13        Q.   All right.  And if we just -- could we go to the next page.

14             MR. KRGOVIC:  Sorry to interrupt, but there is a mistake with the

15     number.  On page 45 -- 43, it's line 20, it was recorded "26069."  I

16     think you can clarify that with the witness.

17             MS. KORNER:

18        Q.   All right, General.  You told us a little bit -- way back that

19     there were "In the analysis of combat readiness ... I found the

20     information that there were only 26069 active-duty officers."

21             What was the figure that you say you found?

22        A.   Ms. Korner, I said 2669.  And let me add, in order to clarify.

23     This is only about the manning level, whereas I was talking about the

24     quality of that manning.

25        Q.   Well, as I think I put to you yesterday, the

Page 24044

 1     343rd Motorised Brigade --

 2             MS. KORNER:  And can we go to the next page in English, please,

 3     number 12.

 4        Q.   -- was led by a Colonel Arsic, who, I suggest to you, was a

 5     highly experienced professional officer, and, as we can see, had

 6     available to it - accepting that some reservists may not have been called

 7     up - some 4.574 ordinary squadees, soldiers.  Actually, sorry, 5.415,

 8     because it was overmanned.

 9             Do you agree that's what they had available to them in that one

10     brigade?

11        A.   I agree, Ms. Korner.  But these 5.000 soldiers must be viewed in

12     relation to the 600 officers up there, out of whom not all are

13     active-duty officers, because that's the relation I keep talking about.

14     I'm not opposing you when you say that they had many men.

15        Q.   All right.  Can we leave that document, please, and move, purely

16     on the subject of communication, to document, please, P411.29, at tab 31.

17     And let's try and do this fairly quickly.

18             Three days after his last report, on the 27th of May,

19     Colonel Vukelic writes another report.  Now, we don't have a distribution

20     list for this one.  But, again, within three days, he's reporting about

21     what's going on in the AOR of the 1st Krajina Corps.  And in the third

22     paragraph, or second paragraph, we see enemy forces.

23             Third paragraph deals with what's happening in the Banja Luka

24     region and a proportion -- sorry.

25             "A portion of the Muslim and Croatian population is moving out,

Page 24045

 1     and the region of Bosnian Krajina has issued a decision to facilitate

 2     such departures, providing that the Serbs from Central Bosnia and places

 3     with predominantly Muslim and Croatian populations were also allowed to

 4     move out.  Those departing will not be allowed to return?"

 5             Would you accept, General, that is Colonel Vukelic reporting on

 6     the political machinations, if that's the right word, that were going on

 7     in Banja Luka?

 8        A.   Ms. Korner, it is very difficult for me to comment on this

 9     document because this is a report.  This is not an order.

10             We cannot tell from this who it is that allows or disallows

11     anything, whether this is the position of these people there or that of

12     the corps command.

13        Q.   No.  I -- I'm not suggesting -- I'm so sorry; you misunderstood.

14     I'm not, for the moment, suggesting that's what the corps command is

15     saying.  I'm suggesting that this is Colonel Vukelic reporting on what's

16     happening with the Banja Luka political authorities.

17             Do you agree that's right?

18        A.   Well, Ms. Korner, it's hard for me to agree, because this

19     paragraph starts with the words "in the Banja Luka region ..." and then

20     some events are mentioned.

21        Q.   All right.  Well, let's -- I'll deal with that.

22             You mentioned in part of your report what you described as

23     municipal authorities having an influence.  However, it's correct, isn't

24     it, that you've not looked at a single document emanating from the

25     Crisis Staffs, in particular, the ARK -- the Autonomous Region of Krajina

Page 24046

 1     Regional Crisis Staff?

 2        A.   I do not remember.

 3        Q.   No --

 4        A.   I'm under oath, Ms. Korner, and it's very difficult for me to

 5     remember the documents that I used when drafting my report.  But they are

 6     listed in the bibliography at the end.

 7        Q.   Yes.  Well, take it from me, there's no reference to a single

 8     Crisis Staff document, certainly not from the ARK Crisis Staff, and I

 9     don't believe - I'll double-check that - from any other.

10             Were you shown by either Mr. Krgovic or Mr. Cvijetic any

11     Crisis Staff documents when you got here?

12        A.   Possibly, madam.  I cannot be specific, Ms. Korner.

13        Q.   Well, we'll come to some later.  All right.

14             And then just, as I say, going very quickly through it.  Colonel

15     Vukelic reports on the various areas that come within the AOR of the 1st

16     Krajina Corps?

17             You hadn't seen this document before, had you?

18        A.   I don't think so, Ms. Korner.

19        Q.   Right.  Let's move, please, to the next document -- documents for

20     all around this period.

21             MS. KORNER:  Can we look now, please, at 65 ter 619, at tab 32A.

22        Q.   This is the 6th of June.  And this is the 1st Krajina Corps

23     reporting again directly to the Main Staff.

24             Do you agree with that?

25        A.   I agree, Ms. Korner.

Page 24047

 1        Q.   We see that they talk about the enemy forces in Western Slavonia,

 2     paragraph 1, in Prijedor, Kotor Varos.  The state of combat readiness.

 3     The situation on the ground, in paragraph 3.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Can we go, please, in English, over the page to

 5     paragraph 5.

 6        Q.   State of morale -- combat morale and security "successes in armed

 7     conflicts and preventing the spread of new conflicts are restoring the

 8     security and faith in the strength and capabilities of the

 9     1st Krajina Corps unit.  A drive is under way to eliminate breaches of

10     discipline and authorised [sic] departure from the units ..."

11             So would you agree that, apparently, the 1st Krajina Corps - and

12     we see that they've signed -- signed by General Talic, himself, or maybe

13     on his behalf - was going on to deal with the problems that had been

14     identified, of discipline?

15        A.   That is correct, Ms. Korner.

16        Q.   Logistics.  No casualties up to the time of completing this

17     report.  And then number 8.

18             MS. KORNER:  So we have to go to the next page in B/C/S.  It's

19     the bottom of this page in English.

20        Q.   Conclusions and anticipated developments.  Armed conflicts

21     continuing to calm down.  Corps units firmly holding their positions.

22     Further escalation of fighting can be expected in combat zones, and so on

23     and so forth.

24             "A decline in individual and collective crime and looting is to

25     be expected because the 1st Krajina command and the Ministry of the

Page 24048

 1     Interior are talking energetic steps to prevent new actions."

 2             Would that be, in your view, an example of co-operation between

 3     the MUP and the VRS?

 4        A.   Yes, Ms. Korner.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, that's all I -- oh, you can see it's sign signed

 6     on behalf of General Talic or by him.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, this document has not, so far, been

 8     made an exhibit, and I would ask that it be exhibited, because it deals

 9     specifically with one of the issues that the General has been dealing

10     with; namely, in particular -- well, firstly, it's the reporting I'm

11     interested in.  So it's two issues.  Second, the collaboration between

12     the VRS and the MUP.

13             MR. KRGOVIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

14             MS. KORNER:  Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             MS. KORNER:  It's the 6th of June, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2387, Your Honours.

19             MS. KORNER:  6th of June.  Can we move now, please, to the next

20     document, which is the -- either the 8th or the 10th.  Sorry.  It's on

21     2D001.  Appears to be the first document produced.  And it's at tab 33A.

22        Q.   It's dated, typed, the 8th of June, but somebody's added by hand

23     the 10th of June.  If we look at the number, it says 44-1/168.

24             And the previous one we looked at on the 6th of June was

25     44-1/164.  So can we take it from that, with your experience of these

Page 24049

 1     reports, that there had been four intervening reports to the Main Staff?

 2        A.   That's difficult to tell, Ms. Korner, because it depends on

 3     whether the first number means that only reports are filed under this

 4     number.  Or maybe, to be more specific, only combat reports are

 5     designated 44.  Or possibly some other documents may also be marked 44.

 6     That depends on the practice that prevails in -- in a particular command

 7     and the way they file their documents.

 8        Q.   Yes.  I -- I'm not -- I'm not concerned with, so much, the type.

 9     But does it suggest that, whatever type, they've been carried under this

10     group of numbers -- there have been four intervening reports?  Three, I

11     suppose.  Yeah, three, before you get to this one.

12        A.   There are three numbers.  Of course, I don't know the contents of

13     these documents.  But if you want to distinguish if they are filed under

14     the same number, which they are, yes.

15        Q.   Well, we'll see, because I'm going to look at a couple more

16     reports, this appears to be the numbering for the regular combat report.

17             Can we just look, please, at one item there, item 3.  And can we

18     just make sure that it is correctly translated.  Could you read out,

19     please, the first line that you can see under paragraph 3: "Situation on

20     the ground."

21        A.   Ms. Korner, I quote:  "Situation on the ground: The situation on

22     the ground is under control, and there is full co-operation with the

23     public security centre, the police stations, and the authorities."

24        Q.   So we're quite clear there the word is "co-operation."  This is

25     not describing a situation where public security centre or police

Page 24050

 1     stations have been resubordinated to army needs.

 2        A.   That is correct, Ms. Korner.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Can we now look, please, at document 34A -- sorry.

 5     34A in the binder.  And it's P475.

 6        Q.   Now, this is either three days or five days, depending whether it

 7     was the 8th or 10th of June, for the last document.  Another regular

 8     combat report to the Main Staff.  There seems to be some confusion about

 9     what its number is.  But, in any event, it's the same series, 44-1,

10     either 182 or 176.  But it appears, if that's right, that this is the

11     numbering system that refers to the regular combat reports.  There have

12     been some -- there's 168, so some eight or so, possibly more, reports in

13     those -- in that period; is that right?

14        A.   I agree with you.  As long as only combat reports were filed

15     under that number, of course.

16        Q.   Yes.  I accept that.  Can we just look, please, at

17     paragraph number 5 on this report.

18             Security situation: 900 POWs from Staro Gradiska have been moved

19     to Manjaca.

20             Do you know anything about Manjaca?

21        A.   I know the story about the POW camp at Manjaca.

22        Q.   When you say "the story," is that from the trials that have taken

23     place here, which have had part of their focus on Manjaca?

24        A.   That is one of the things I mean, yes.

25        Q.   Have you ever looked at any documents that came from Manjaca?

Page 24051

 1     Produced in the course of its operation, I should say, by members of the

 2     VRS?

 3        A.   Ms. Korner, I believe you're asking me a total of two or three

 4     questions there.

 5             My understanding:  Are you asking me whether I saw the documents

 6     at the time the camp was established, or are you asking me whether I have

 7     seen any documents at all on the Manjaca camp?

 8        Q.   I'm asking you -- sorry.  You're quite right.  It's my fault.

 9     I'm asking you whether have you seen any documents, either at the time or

10     since then, which relate to the running of Manjaca camp from 1992,

11     March or April of 1992, not its earlier incarnation.

12        A.   Ms. Korner, I don't remember.  I should go back to my

13     bibliography to see whether anything is there.

14        Q.   Yes.  Well, there isn't.  All right.  But you can check it

15     yourself.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I've got one more document in this

17     series, but I see the time so ...

18             JUDGE HALL: [Microphone not activated]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the President, please.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  So we return in 20 minutes.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 12 .04 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             MS. KORNER:

Page 24052

 1        Q.   Now, General, that last document which we looked at before the

 2     break is in this series of the 44-1 and is dated the 13th of June.

 3     Finally, on this topic of communications, can you look at a document from

 4     the 14th of June, which is P1808, tab 34B.

 5             This is, in fact, a defence order issued from the

 6     1st Light Infantry Brigade Command, which do you know to be part of the

 7     1st Krajina Corps?

 8        A.   That's right, Ms. Korner.

 9        Q.   And we can see that it has a different series of numbers, 571-27

10     which has apparently been written in.  And it's dated the 14th of June.

11     It's issuing an order.

12             And can we look, please, at paragraph 4.  Perhaps we should look

13     at who signed it first.

14             MS. KORNER:  The last page, please, in each.

15        Q.   Again, we don't have the distribution list, but it's clearly an

16     order to subordinate brigades, I would suggest.

17             I think we'll find this is the commander, signed by the

18     commander; do you agree?  It says Major Stevo Topic, but I rather feel

19     that should be "Tepic."

20              MS. KORNER:  And then if we go back, please, to paragraph 4 on

21     the second page in English and the first page in B/C/S.

22        Q.   He's saying what he's decided to do.  And then this:

23     "Protection of features and control of the territory should be organised

24     in co-operation with the SJB and various companies."

25             Again, is the word there "co-operation"?

Page 24053

 1        A.   Ms. Korner, I agree with you.  The document was signed by the

 2     brigade commander.

 3             Nevertheless, I think there is a translation error here.  It

 4     wasn't sent to the subordinate brigades but to subordinate units lower

 5     than brigade level.

 6        Q.   You're quite right.  It's my fault.  Thank you very much for the

 7     correction, General.  I should have said units.

 8             Now, I don't know whether you can answer this:  Wasn't it a --

 9        A.   May I continue?

10        Q.   Yes, certainly.

11        A.   As far as your question is concerned, it reads:  "In co-operation

12     with the public security station and local companies organised for

13     facilities to be secured and the area to be put under control."

14             Ms. Korner, as I said a number of times over the last couple of

15     days, co-operation was prescribed as an activity.  And what we see here

16     is co-operation was actually established.  I've also mentioned this.  In

17     theory, there should always be a co-operation plan, including questions

18     to be dealt with, specific tasks to be worked on, a time-frame, and so on

19     and so forth.

20        Q.   Yes.  Now, accepting that it's a rather broad outlining of the

21     task, "protection of the features and control of the territory" is being

22     said to the subordinate units; this is what you must do, together with,

23     in co-operation with, the SJB.  Is that right?  It's a task being set by

24     this commander to his subordinate units.

25        A.   That's correct, Ms. Korner.

Page 24054

 1        Q.   All right.  And what is going to happen is that the SJB is not

 2     resubordinated but they're going to establish co-operation with it.

 3        A.   I'm afraid I don't understand the question as to what will

 4     happen.

 5        Q.   All right.  The reason that I -- I'm keeping on about this is as

 6     is -- for the same reason that you were asked a number of questions by

 7     your own lawyers, or your own team, and Mr. Cvijetic.  There is, you

 8     agree, a real difference between formal resubordination of a police or

 9     police officers into an army unit and actions, such as this one, where

10     the army and the police will cooperate in controlling, protecting

11     features, and controlling the territory; is that right?

12        A.   Yes, that's right, Ms. Korner.

13        Q.   All right.  And, as I say, I was about to ask you this.  And if

14     you can't answer the question, say so.

15             Are you aware that it was a feature of the -- the - I'm trying to

16     think of the right word, a neutral word - the acquiring of territory that

17     the Serb -- the Serbian Republic in Bosnia believed was -- or said they

18     believed was theirs, that the army would go in and the police would

19     follow on behind, as it were, and using the term neutrally - I know this

20     is it a very long question - mopping up, controlling the territory?

21        A.   Ms. Korner, I assume you're asking me about the progress of

22     certain combat operations, which I'll be glad to explain.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... no, I'm asking you

24     specifics, not -- not general.  I'm asking specifically in terms of the

25     Krajina, which is apparently the area that your report concentrates on,

Page 24055

 1     whether you're aware of the nature of the operations that took place

 2     there.

 3             And if you're not, say so straight away and I'll move on.

 4        A.   Ms. Korner, in my capacity as a military expert, I tried to take

 5     a neutral approach in interpreting the existing rules and regulations, in

 6     order to assist you as well.  There has to be a document named "order,"

 7     regulating who does what, who goes where, who enters which particular

 8     area, and in order to perform what specific tasks.

 9        Q.   Yes.  As -- if we go back to the first page of this order, this

10     is an order, isn't it?

11             MS. KORNER:  Can we go back to the first page.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, Ms. Korner.

13             MS. KORNER:

14        Q.   But -- and I understand what you're saying, General, but can you

15     just answer the question, please.  Are you aware of the details of the

16     operations that took place in the Krajina, particularly between April and

17     August of 1992?

18        A.   Ms. Korner, I have read the entire analysis of combat readiness

19     of the VRS in relation to 1992.

20        Q.   Yes.  That's still not an answer to my question, because that

21     doesn't deal with the detail of the operations.

22             Are you familiar with the detail of the military operations that

23     took place in the Krajina between April and August, give or take, 1992?

24        A.   Again, Ms. Korner, I'm telling you, I did not deal with the

25     specifics or, indeed, specific developments.  I tended to look more into

Page 24056

 1     the theory behind it and into the rules themselves, covering the subject

 2     that I believe myself to be qualified for.

 3        Q.   Right.  Would you accept that because an internal conflict was

 4     unexpected for those who had been trained in the JNA there was a lot of

 5     improvisation that went on, certainly during the beginning part of the

 6     conflict?

 7        A.   I agree with you.  Which is sometimes the case in a war

 8     situation.  I did address the issue, though.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

10             Now, General, that's all I want to ask you on the topic of

11     communications, other than this:  I am going ask you, be kind enough, and

12     you can say no if you don't want to, to take away with you, to have a

13     look at, the first document - not now, I'll give it to you at the end of

14     the day - which was the duty notebook, I suggest, of the 1st KK, and I

15     don't think that's disputed.  And further, what I'm going to suggest,

16     when you've read it, is the war diary for the 1st Krajina Corps.  But

17     they're both lengthy documents, and I think, in fairness to you, you

18     ought to be allowed to read them.

19             So if you're happy to do that, I'll give them to you at the end

20     of the day.

21        A.   Ms. Korner, does that mean that we'll discuss that document, that

22     is, if I accept to take this document from you and read it, given the

23     fact that time is short and the document appears to be quite extensive?

24        Q.   Yes.  No.  That's why I'm asking you - there's two documents,

25     both of which are quite extensive; you obviously weren't offered them

Page 24057

 1     before - whether you would be prepared to read them overnight and deal

 2     with a couple of questions over the communications that they show.  If

 3     you're not, that's entirely your right.

 4        A.   Ms. Korner, I'm not shunning this responsibility, and I'm willing

 5     to discuss.  My concern is, I will not have sufficient time to adequately

 6     prepare myself in order to be able to interpret such extensive documents.

 7        Q.   Right.  As I say, it's entirely your decision, General.  Can I

 8     put it -- say that all I'm going to ask you tomorrow is, when you've read

 9     them, is to show that they show a great deal of information being passed

10     to the corps command and recorded.

11             But, as I say, it's your decision, and you needn't answer now

12     because we'll move on, and I'll ask you again when we conclude this

13     afternoon.

14             Right.  Can we have up again, please, your report, which is 31D2.

15             And can we go, please, to your notes on methodology at

16     paragraph 14.

17             Sorry, I should ask for paragraph 13 first, actually.  Just one

18     more question.

19             You said, at the end of paragraph 13:

20             "I also used parts of expert reports written by expert witnesses

21     of the Prosecution or the Defence in this and other cases before the

22     Tribunal, as well as expert and scientific literature."

23             You listed Mr. Butler's report from the Popovic case, or the

24     Srebrenica cases.  Sorry, what other reports did you use, either

25     produced -- well, certainly of the Prosecution or the Defence in this

Page 24058

 1     case?

 2        A.   I think only the reports that I indicated in my bibliography.

 3        Q.   Yes.  But none of them were expert reports from this case.  The

 4     only one you listed was that of Mr. Butler.  So I'm asking if there were

 5     any others; and, if not, why you said, "I also used parts of experts'

 6     reports written by expert witnesses of the Prosecution or the Defence in

 7     this and other cases ..."

 8        A.   Ms. Korner, I'm afraid I can't specify.  I can't be more specific

 9     in my answer.

10        Q.   Well, putting it at its lowest, General, it was a bit of sloppy

11     writing, wasn't it?  Because you haven't looked at it, as you've told us;

12     it's only Mr. Butler's that you've looked at.

13        A.   Ms. Korner, I'm trying to remember.  I'm trying to think back.

14     But I can't remember why I put it like that.

15        Q.   All right.  Let's go now to paragraph 14, please.  About which

16     I've already asked you about the para police addition to this paragraph.

17             You said: "The military forces which participated in the armed

18     conflict were poorly organised ..."

19             On what do you base the "poorly organised"?  And indeed you said

20     "forces," so I assume you're including the HVO, the ABiH, as well as the

21     VRS.  On what do you base that assessment?

22        A.   Ms. Korner, I stand by my assessment.  You said it yourself a

23     minute ago.  At the beginning of the war, throughout the early period, or

24     perhaps even throughout the war in its entirety, there can always be some

25     improvisation.  Likewise, it is stated clearly in my CV I defended my MA

Page 24059

 1     thesis in the area of defence and protection, thereby obtaining my MA

 2     degree.  I'm in every way entitled to use my own knowledge, my own

 3     discernment, my own assessments, because I am appropriately qualified to

 4     do just that.

 5        Q.   Yes.  But, I'm sorry, you're not talking in, as it were, in

 6     theory.  You're actually asserting that the ABiH, the HVO, and the VRS

 7     were poorly organised.  So explain to us, apart from defending your

 8     theoretical thesis, on what you base that.

 9        A.   Ms. Korner, it would be easier for me to answer if you were able

10     to produce a document contradicting my assertion.

11             Can I please see a document saying that they were all well

12     organised, that they were all well armed, that they were all well

13     trained?  Had that been the case, my assessment is the war would have

14     been over quite soon, and we would not have had to deal well all these

15     negativities.

16        Q.   General, believe you me, I am going to take you through the

17     documents which I suggest show that your conclusion is not a justified --

18     or your conclusions are not a justified one.  But, forgive me, I'm afraid

19     you have to explain to us how you were able to say that they were poorly

20     organised, insufficiently and disparately armed of inadequate military

21     discipline, and undefined hierarchical relations.

22             Now, on what did you base those positive conclusions about the

23     actual workings of the ABiH, the HVO, and the VRS?

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the

25     witness dealt with this topic extensively yesterday and he answered

Page 24060

 1     Ms. Korner's question.  For about half an hour there was discussion about

 2     that in connection with a paragraph of his report, and the witness

 3     already answered this question.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I don't believe he did.  And even if

 5     he did, perhaps he could answer it now.

 6        Q.   Did you have -- did you look at any documents from either of

 7     these three armies which led you to that conclusion?

 8        A.   Ms. Korner, you're again making me remember what I said yesterday

 9     or the day before yesterday.  And I was saying that at the

10     Military Academy we made some analyses of the experiences from previous

11     wars, that after the war I travelled to professional conferences and

12     meetings held in four of the six former Yugoslavia republics, that I had

13     the opportunity to speak to officers who had taken part in that war.

14        Q.   All right --

15        A.   And I told you that I consulted two highly esteemed professors

16     upon completion of my report, two competent generals from the VRS, and

17     none has doubted my assertions.  None has asserted anything different.

18        Q.   So the answer to my question now, and I accept you told us that

19     yesterday:  You didn't look at any documents; you consulted with these

20     people?

21        A.   Ms. Korner, I told you that I stand by my assertions put forward

22     here.

23        Q.   I know you do because -- of course, you can hardly say, "I got it

24     all wrong," can you, at this stage?

25             Tell me something, General, did it ever occur to you that it

Page 24061

 1     would be preferable to look at actual documents rather than looking at

 2     analysis of experience from previous wars or travelling to conferences or

 3     showing the report to professors in general?

 4             Did it ever occur to you that you should say to Mr. Krgovic, or

 5     somebody else, "Give me the documents"?

 6        A.   Ms. Korner, I think I had enough documents.  Bearing in mind the

 7     shortness of time, I think I wrote a good report.

 8        Q.   I understand -- but, General, you say the shortness of time.  Did

 9     you ever say to Mr. Krgovic, "Look, I cannot complete a thorough

10     examination or analysis of what you want me to do in the time that you

11     have allowed me"?

12        A.   I did not say that to Mr. Krgovic.  Those were my problems.

13        Q.   Yeah.  All right.  Explain, would you, please, what "undefined

14     hierarchical relations" means.

15        A.   Ms. Korner, in the original document, the language is "neuredjeni

16     hijenarhijski odnosi."

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Which can be translated as "undefined

18     hierarchical relations," interpreter's remark.

19             MS. KORNER:  Well, I mean, the General talking to the interpreter

20     is not a good idea.

21        Q.   But, I'm sorry, General, are you saying it's something different?

22     Would you -- [indiscernible] -- Sorry.  Stop that.

23             Regardless of the actual literal English translation, can you

24     explain what you mean by that phrase, please.

25        A.   Ms. Korner, I stated that in the initial period of the war there

Page 24062

 1     was a lack of laws and regulation, which was a problem.  Also, that some

 2     relations between local authorities and commands of the

 3     Territorial Defence were not defined.  There weren't enough regulations

 4     and rules.  And that's what I meant when I said that the relations were

 5     insufficiently defined.  There were shortcomings with regard to the

 6     sanctioning of going AWOL.  There were many other things that were unfit

 7     for a military organisation.

 8        Q.   Well, I'm sorry, let's try and see if we can get at this.

 9             So you're not talking about command and control issues and

10     subordinates reporting to superiors; that's not what you mean by that?

11        A.   Ms. Korner, it is possible to apply what I wrote to that, too.

12        Q.   Well, anything is possible, General.  But what did you mean when

13     you wrote that?

14        A.   I think that I explained in my previous answer, Ms. Korner.

15        Q.   No, you didn't.  You talked about outside influences and -- and

16     the municipal -- I take it, the Crisis Staff, that you'd been told about.

17     What you actually said was the -- some relationship between the local

18     authorities and commands of the Territorial Defence were not defined.

19     "There weren't enough regulations and rules."  That's what I meant.

20     "There were many ... things that were unfit for a military organisation."

21             Now, they're two wholly different things.  Are you talking about

22     the command and control issues within the VRS, or are you talking about

23     the influence that you put in somewhere else of persons like

24     Crisis Staffs, municipal authorities, or both?

25        A.   Ms. Korner, I'm talking about both.  It is widely known that at

Page 24063

 1     the beginning of the war there was an official army, the Yugoslav

 2     People's Army.  And there was an official Territorial Defence in each

 3     republic.  It is also well known that other armies began to be set up and

 4     at the Territorial Defences.  And I thought about that practice, too, and

 5     that's also what I had in mind when I wrote down that statement.

 6             MS. KORNER:  Sorry, Your Honour, I just want to ...

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8        Q.   All right.  Now, can we deal, finally, on this part of your

 9     report.  The report, you say, under temporal context is "... limited by

10     the period specified in the indictment (1st of April, 1992, to the

11     31st of December ...)"

12             What did you mean by that?

13        A.   Ms. Korner, I took that over from the indictment.

14        Q.   No.  But you say the report is limited by the period specified in

15     the indictment.

16             In what sense is it limited?

17        A.   It can be seen from the report that I even went beyond these

18     points in time so that what is stated here may be less than precise.

19        Q.   Well, exactly.  Because I would suggest to you that something in

20     the region of 70 per cent of your report is concerned with laws and

21     doctrines that applied before the formation of the VRS.

22             Would you accept that?

23        A.   Ms. Korner, I couldn't give you an exact percentage, but I strove

24     to find a basis for such use of police in combat activities by studying

25     all these documents.  It doesn't matter how many documents you read and

Page 24064

 1     how many are cited in the footnotes, but whether or not you have proved

 2     your assertions and provided foundation for that proof in the form of

 3     military laws and regulations.

 4             Certainly the last word about this will be said by the

 5     Trial Chamber.

 6        Q.   I absolutely agree with that last remark.  But the point about

 7     this, General, is, you weren't just dealing in your report with issues of

 8     the use of the police in combat activities.  You were discussing, as you

 9     said, and, you know, I think it's in the beginning in your introduction,

10     the topic of command in the armed forces of Republika Srpska, including

11     resubordination and co-ordinated action ..."

12             However, let's go to the last paragraph of your notes on

13     methodology, paragraph (d), which is on the next page in English, Area.

14              "The report covers the western part of Republika Srpska, i.e.,

15     the Banja Luka region (the municipalities of the Autonomous Region of

16     Krajina ...)" and you then list them.

17             And what you said about that, when you were asked by Mr. Krgovic

18     on the first day, was: "I focussed" -- this is at page, sorry, 23646:

19             "I focussed on the area itself because of the nature of the

20     indictment.  This is the area stipulated in the indictment.  However, I

21     did rely on documents from the rest of the Republika Srpska and

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina as I was drafting this report."

23             Now, we first went through this when I was first asking you

24     questions of what's in your bibliography.  You hardly looked at a single

25     document, did you, that came from these areas?  And to be precise, I hope

Page 24065

 1     to remind you again, because you say you've forgotten what's in your

 2     bibliography, three police documents emanating from the Banja Luka CSB,

 3     and a number, I think, I did count up and give them to you, however many

 4     it was, a couple of documents from Kotor Varos, and some general VRS

 5     orders.

 6             So Teslic, Sanski Most, Skender Vakuf, how many -- how does this

 7     report cover what happened there?

 8        A.   Ms. Korner, I have said a number of times that I did not describe

 9     events, and I still think that wasn't my assignment; but, rather, how and

10     why a police unit was used in combat activities, in general terms.  It

11     doesn't matter whether we're talking about Vakuf or Kljuc or Kotor Varos.

12     Whenever a police unit is used thus, in combat activities, it is

13     subordinated to the military commander of that unit.  And that is what I

14     wanted to prove.  I needed numerous documents for that, as well as rules

15     and regulations.  I did not have to describe events.

16        Q.   Well, first, if -- if that's what you meant to say, that this was

17     just looking at the role of police subordination, why didn't you say that

18     instead of giving the impression, I suggest, that you had looked in depth

19     at the events of those municipalities?

20        A.   Ms. Korner, possibly out of clumsiness, I understood that I had

21     to copy this section from the indictment.

22        Q.   I'm sorry, I don't understand that.  Who told you you had to copy

23     that section from the indictment?

24        A.   Ms. Korner, I said that I may have misunderstood my duty or what

25     my duty was.  I thought I had to copy this part of the indictment.

Page 24066

 1        Q.   I -- well, I still don't understand, but I think we've spent

 2     enough time on this.

 3             You said an amount ago:  "I needed numerous documents for that,

 4     as well as rules and regulations."

 5             The unfortunate thing, General, would you accept, was that you

 6     didn't get numerous documents?

 7        A.   Ms. Korner, I don't know which document exactly you have in mind.

 8        Q.   No, General.  You did not get numerous documents.  We've been

 9     through this over and over again.  You listed the documents you've got.

10     You had a small, I would suggest, out-of-context sample that you were

11     given by the Defence; is that right?  Well, actually, that's three

12     questions rolled into one.

13             I suggest that you had a very small sample.

14        A.   Ms. Korner, on the list of documents and works, there are

15     documents from which I took part or documents that I quoted in my report.

16     While working on my report, I read many more, but I did not use them in

17     my work and didn't mention all these other documents.  If you understand

18     me.

19        Q.   No, I do not, General.  Because that is a complete change from

20     what you've said.  You told me, and I was specific, that the documents

21     you had read and looked at for the purposes of this report were listed in

22     your bibliography.

23             Are you now saying that there are other documents, original

24     documents, that you looked at that are not listed in your bibliography?

25        A.   Ms. Korner, when I said that I had read something, I was

Page 24067

 1     referring to an earlier period.  I haven't mentioned all those documents.

 2     Here, I listed the documents I used in my work.

 3        Q.   Well, I -- I really don't want to go through this all again.

 4             Are you telling us that at an earlier period, unspecified, you

 5     read through original -- I'm sorry, copies of original documents

 6     connected with the VRS in 1992?

 7        A.   I have told you, Ms. Korner, this may have happened at seminars

 8     or conferences where I was a participant, and I cannot recall a specific

 9     document now, or its exact name.

10        Q.   At these conferences, were you given copies of documents?

11        A.   I do not remember, Ms. Korner.

12        Q.   All right.  Let's move, please, to the second part of your

13     report, headed "Organisation and Tasks of the Armed Forces of the SFRY,"

14     which runs from pages 7 through to 15; do you agree?

15        A.   I agree.

16        Q.   Nothing to do with the VRS.

17        A.   It does have to do with the VRS, Ms. Korner.

18        Q.   You don't get -- you don't mention the word "VRS," I suggest,

19     until you get to the next chapter, which is the formation and

20     organisation and tasks of the armed forces of Republika Srpska.

21             This -- what you do in these seven or so pages is produce

22     diagrams and talk about matters that relate to the JNA.

23        A.   That's correct, Ms. Korner.

24        Q.   Yeah.  And you would suggest, would you, that -- that because the

25     VRS is based on JNA regulations all of this is relevant?

Page 24068

 1        A.   In the initial period of the war; yes, that's correct,

 2     Ms. Korner.

 3        Q.   In paragraph 22, you talk about the police and the 1982 Law on

 4     All People's Defence.  And we've already dealt with the fact that's the

 5     only law that mentions resubordination.

 6             And you said this when you were talking about it, at page 23647.

 7     It was put to you:

 8             "When you were drafting paragraph 22, did you have methodological

 9     problems with drawing certain conclusions?"

10             Your answer:

11             "Yes, I did have major problems when I drafted this report."

12             The reason is as follows:

13             "I the understood the basic topic is the use of police ... in

14     combat activities.  And such a thing was not provided for; it wasn't

15     elaborated.  There was only one article in the Law on All People's

16     Defence, and that is Article 104, which I cite here, which simply states

17     that the police can be used for combat activities.  That is the only

18     reference to the police.  That is why it was a major problem to explain

19     this matter and shed more light on it, because in no country is the

20     police meant to, or trained for, the carrying out of combat activities."

21             Then you talked about the Military Academy.

22              "However, in a war, there are situations which are absent from

23     theory.  Even when such situations arise and police are used for combat

24     activities, they are always subordinated to the military officer in

25     charge of those combat activities."

Page 24069

 1             Do you remember saying that?

 2        A.   I remember, Ms. Korner.

 3        Q.   And we're going back to what I put to you sometime ago, that you

 4     would accept that because there was -- this was the first time any of

 5     these armies had seen internal combat, or external combat, I suppose,

 6     there was some improvisation that had to go on, and you agreed with that.

 7             Do you still agree with that?

 8        A.   In principle, yes.

 9        Q.   Right.  Now I want to ask you something else, though, please.

10             Is there a military definition of combat?

11        A.   There is, Ms. Korner.

12        Q.   Can you tell us where we find that, please.  Because I couldn't

13     find any reference to it in your report.

14        A.   Ms. Korner, I can't say for sure, but I believe there are

15     definitions of armed combat in several places.  There are several

16     references to that.

17        Q.   There are references, I accept, to combat activities and the

18     like, and you talked about it here.  I'm asking you if there is a

19     military definition of combat in some kind of military manual, lexicon,

20     law, whatever.  Combat in itself.  Forget about combat activities.  Just:

21     What is combat?

22        A.   Combat is a broad concept, Ms. Korner.  I talked about armed

23     combat or armed fighting and combat operations.

24        Q.   Yes, I know you did.  Now, General, concentrate, please.  Is

25     there a military definition of the word "combat," or are we talking

Page 24070

 1     about, as the word -- as defined, for example, in the Oxford English

 2     Dictionary, that combat is fighting between armed forces?

 3             Is that what the military -- sorry.  Is that the military

 4     definition?

 5        A.   Ms. Korner, I believe that concept is also defined in quite a

 6     number of different documents.  I also think you can find a definition in

 7     the rules of international law of war.

 8        Q.   Well, no.  I'm asking you, General, if you're able to tell us

 9     specifically - and let's stick to the JNA or the VRS - was there any

10     military document that was -- stated how combat was defined?  Because the

11     word is used, as you say, in the Law on All People's Defence.

12             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, I will try not to help the witness.  It

13     is just that I -- I believe that the -- the interpretation that the

14     witness is -- is receiving is not adequate.  Because the combat is

15     translated as "borba," which is a much broader -- which is a much broader

16     thing than the actual combat.

17             Therefore, I think this is confusing.  It's even confusing for

18     me, to be honest.

19             Thank you.

20             JUDGE HALL:  I suspected, Ms. Korner, that when you had reliance

21     on the OED that we were headed down a path that would invite confusion.

22             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, that may be.  But I'm perfectly

23     happy to ask the General, and not the interpreters, I suppose, for what

24     is the definition of the Serbian word, whatever it may be, "borba" I

25     think somebody said, as to what it means.

Page 24071

 1        Q.   And more to the point:  Is it defined, General, is your word, the

 2     Serbian word for what is translated to us as "combat," defined anywhere?

 3        A.   Ms. Korner, there's a whole book called Strategy of Armed Combat.

 4     As far as I remember, I mentioned that book as one of my sources in my

 5     report.  This is an entire book explaining how armed combat is conducted,

 6     how combat operations are carried out.  And this is something that I

 7     address in my report.

 8        Q.   Well, you don't, actually.  But, anyhow, seriously, Mr. Zecevic,

 9     I must be allowed to pursue my own line of cross-examination.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm just -- I'm -- I'm not trying to -- to --

11     to mix into that, Ms. Korner.  I'm just trying to clarify the situation.

12     Because armed combat --

13             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... [Microphone not

14     activated] ... no, no, I'm sorry.  The General must leave.  Because this

15     is -- Your Honours, I'm sorry.

16             Your Honours, this is really important, because what constitutes

17     combat in which the police can be resubordinated is an important issue.

18             So if -- if Mr. Zecevic wants to pursue this -- and I'm perfectly

19     happy to hear what he says, but not in the presence of the witness.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm just wondering, is there an English term which

21     is "armed combat," or the armed -- the "combat" means actually "armed

22     combat" as you just -- just read from the Oxford dictionary?

23             MS. KORNER:  No.  This is -- Your Honour, I don't think we ought

24     to be exchanging things like that.

25             Your Honours, perhaps it would be -- I see the time, and we can

Page 24072

 1     perhaps sort this out.

 2        Q.   General, I'm going to invite you two things overnight.

 3             You find me the exact section that you say defines combat within

 4     the laws, and you let me know tomorrow morning.

 5             Secondly, I'm going to ask you again whether you're prepared to

 6     take these documents with you, the 1st KK war diary and the notebook.

 7     And if you're not, say so straight away.

 8        A.   Ms. Korner, I accept that we should clarify this first thing you

 9     mentioned tomorrow.

10             As for the second thing, I don't think I have the stamina or,

11     indeed, the time to deal with an extensive document like that over a very

12     short time.  As each day passes, I keep taking on board new information

13     here which keeps me from focussing on my work, and please believe that

14     I'm sincere when I say that.

15        Q.   Sorry, General, you're perfectly entitled to do that.  The reason

16     that I've been asking you to look at all these documents, because it's my

17     suggestion that you should have been shown all these documents before you

18     wrote this report.  But in any event, you're perfectly entitled to say

19     no.

20             And I will, tomorrow morning, however, take you through at least

21     some of the parts of these documents because I think it's important you

22     should see what's in them.  Yes.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  So do you and Mr. Zecevic still need a couple of

24     minutes to pursue this definition, or is it sufficient to -- and

25     therefore should the witness be excused -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 24073

 1             MS. KORNER:  I think the witness should be excused, and I think

 2     we should try and see where we're getting to, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4             General, we will continue your testimony tomorrow.  Although

 5     Ms. Korner mentioned tomorrow morning several times, we actually resume

 6     tomorrow afternoon.

 7             Yes, you wanted to say something?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have some private

 9     commitments, and I would like to ask the following: Would it be okay for

10     me to know in the roughest of terms how much longer my presence here at

11     this Honourable Tribunal will be required?  It is not a problem per se,

12     but it would greatly enhance my planning.  I do have a number of crucial

13     private commitments.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I fully understand your concern to know when

15     you are likely to be released.

16             Ms. Korner, are you able to project, today being -- today -- at

17     this point?

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, in fact, Mr. Krgovic and I were

19     discussing this matter at the break.  It's clear to me that I won't

20     conclude until Thursday.  And Mr. Krgovic says he has re-examination for

21     the witness which will probably go into Friday.  And so the situation is

22     that the General will have to stay till Friday.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Worse case is that he will not be here beyond Friday

24     after -- yes.

25             MS. KORNER:  No.  Unless something really goes wrong.  But, no,

Page 24074

 1     he won't be.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, so I trust that answers your question, General.

 3     We expect that you would be released on Friday.  And we are scheduled to

 4     sit tomorrow afternoon and Thursday afternoon, but on Friday we revert to

 5     the morning.  So the ordinary time of adjournment would mean that at 1.45

 6     on Friday -- by 1.45 on Friday you should be released.  Yes.

 7             So the usher will escort you out ahead of us.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  If I may, Your Honours.

11             Well, Your Honours, I -- I -- I must -- I must say that I don't

12     want to be perceived as being ahead of myself or -- first of all, I'm not

13     the professional interpreter.  My knowledge of English is relatively good

14     but it's not that good.  But how I see the problem is the following:  In

15     Serbian language, "borba," as "combat," was translated to the witness,

16     and I'm told that by Mr. Cvijetic.  The word "borba," "borba," means any

17     kind of fight.  So there is no difference between combat and a fight.

18     For example, sports fight.  For example, bull's fight.  Fighting between

19     two persons.  It's all "borba."  It can be in a broader sense understood

20     as "borba."

21             Now, the -- in a military sense, it is the armed -- it is "oruzje

22     borba," "armed fighting."  "Armed fighting."  Which, in my opinion,

23     corresponds to the English word combat, as Ms. Korner read from the

24     dictionary.  It is the fighting between two opposing armed sides, or

25     something to that.

Page 24075

 1             So, therefore, when witness is answering "armed combat," I don't

 2     think "armed combat" means anything in English.  Because armed combat is

 3     a combat.  And all military documents, all military documents in the

 4     former Yugoslavia, in Serbia, even now, they talk about armed fighting,

 5     "oruzje borba," just to precisely focus on the fighting between two

 6     opposing armed sides.  And that, I think -- so the -- so that is the

 7     clarification I wanted to -- with the help, of course, of the

 8     interpreters and everybody, in trying to understand why -- try to explain

 9     why I think there is -- there is a miscommunication.  And what I'm afraid

10     of is that at the end of the day we will again need to -- to clarify the

11     word in -- in English and in Serbian so we know what we are -- when we

12     are talking about the combat, what is the word that is used in Serbian.

13             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours --

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  I hope I was helpful.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

16             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'm perfectly prepared to -- to accept.

17     And, indeed, although it's something of a misnomer in English, as

18     Your Honours know, to say "armed combat" because it in effect

19     presupposes, if it's combat, that it is armed.  I do see what Mr. Zecevic

20     says, and I'm perfectly happy to accept that in the Serbian they

21     distinguish between combat which is a mere fight, whether it's boxing or

22     whatever, and armed which means the carrying of weapons.

23             Your Honour, I'm perfectly happy to accept that.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would it be very difficult to use for these

Page 24076

 1     purposes in English the word "armed combat," even if it's a little bit

 2     over the top?

 3             MS. KORNER:  No.  No, Your Honours, I'm -- I --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And I think that would --

 5             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- solve the problem.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  No, I'm perfectly happy to do that.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But, Ms. Korner, could I then ask:  Is there any

10     intentional difference between armed combat and armed conflicts, as the

11     term use is to be in international humanitarian law?

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I'm not trying to -- yes.

13             I think conflict suggests more than one person.  I mean, combat

14     comes from the Old French, "combattere" and was really dealing with

15     knights jousting, I think, effectively.  Actually, I'm sure Judge Delvoie

16     can do better on this than I can.  Whereas conflict, I think, suggests a

17     larger scale thing.  If one were to use the word conflict in English, I

18     think you would be talking about certainly more than two men fighting

19     each other.  And armed conflict in international humanitarian law, of

20     course, has a specific meaning.

21             But what I'm simply trying to get at is this whole question of

22     the Law on National Defence, or whatever it is called, the number of

23     times I've said it, the Law on All People's Defence, what it means when

24     the police are resubordinated in combat for combat activities.  That's

25     all.  And it doesn't mean, as I would -- well, Mr. Zecevic will say I'm

Page 24077

 1     making a speech again.

 2             Anyhow, that's what I'm trying to get at with that question.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So we resume tomorrow.  Courtroom I.

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of

 6                           September, at 2011, at 2.15 p.m.