Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24489

 1                           Wednesday, 21 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning,

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

11             MR. HANNIS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution,

12     I'm Tom Hannis, along with Crispian Smith.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

14     Representing Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.

15             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

16     Aleksandar Aleksic, Miroslav Cuskic, and Eelke Daatselaar appearing for

17     Zupljanin Defence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Are there any housekeeping matters?

19             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, just briefly.  Yesterday there was an

20     oral ruling concerning the Prosecution's motion to reopen its case.  I

21     was asked to seek a clarification.

22             The final point, I think, Judge Harhoff mentioned was we ask the

23     Prosecution to provide us with at least a template translation of the

24     documents.

25             And I wanted to clarify: Is that just for the death certificates

Page 24490

 1     or for all of the documents, autopsy reports, and others?

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  To the extent in which it is possible to have

 3     template translations made also for the other documents, we would like to

 4     have that.

 5             I believe that the template translations is a term of art

 6     invented by the Prosecution itself, so you know better than anyone else

 7     what a template translation is.  And I think that at the previous

 8     occasion you did provide such translations also for the other documents,

 9     that is to say, the -- the death certificates.

10             MR. HANNIS: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, I --

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- the death certificates.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I suspected that was the intention.  I wanted to

13     clarify that basically those documents that lend themselves to a template

14     translation is that -- those that are basically a form where it's filled

15     in with a name and a date, et cetera.  So we will do that, Your Honours.

16             That's all I had.

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             Could we go into closed session so the witness can be escorted

20     back to the stand, please.

21                           [Closed session]

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11 Pages 24492-24496 redacted. Private session.















Page 24497

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 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MR. HANNIS:

 6        Q.   Now, Witness you should have on the monitor Exhibit P539, which

 7     is, as I said, apparently a brief news report of a press conference.  And

 8     with Mr. Zupljanin who apparently said a little more than halfway

 9     through: "All employees must sign the text of the formal declaration by

10     15 April, and if they fail to do that, their employment will cease."

11             Doesn't that indicate that, whether that was his personal

12     position or the position of the Law on Internal Affairs or the minister

13     of internal affairs and/or the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka or the

14     autonomous region, Mr. Zupljanin was supporting it?

15        A.   As I've said, the signing of solemn declarations, and this also

16     mentions new uniforms with insignia, to my mind, was a decision, possibly

17     of the Assembly of the ARK or of the Crisis Staff, and Mr. Zupljanin only

18     related the instructions an orders.

19        Q.   So he was only following orders?

20        A.   Well, in this case he informed the public that solemn

21     declarations would be signed and that uniforms would be changed.

22        Q.   And, according to you, whose orders was he following when he

23     informed about that deadline?

24        A.   Well, in my opinion, I don't know much about politics and I've

25     never meddled much, but possibly the Autonomous Region of Krajina; that

Page 24498

 1     is, its assembly.  But I really can't tell.

 2        Q.   You know, don't you, though, that Mr. Zupljanin was a member of

 3     the Crisis Staff of the ARK, the Autonomous Region of the Krajina.  You

 4     were aware of that?

 5        A.   I knew that, by virtue of his position as chief of the CSB, he

 6     was a member of the Crisis Staff.

 7        Q.   Let me show you, next, exhibit 1D138.  This is tab is 13 of the

 8     Prosecution's list.  This one will be on your screen in a minute,

 9     Witness.

10             I'll tell you, it's from Minister Delimustafic, dated the

11     10th of April, to all CSBs and SJBs.

12             Well, let me ask you first:  Did you ever see this or were you

13     aware of this document in 1992?

14        A.   This is the first time I see this document.

15        Q.   Now, you read there that Mr. Delimustafic is referring to what he

16     calls the so-called Serbian MUP being in progress of forming

17     organisational units.  And he says that what was happening was that some

18     employees were being pressured and blackmailed, especially non-Serbs, to

19     sign some sort of what he calls "declarations of loyalty.  Otherwise,

20     their employment will allegedly be terminated?"

21             That's an accurate description, isn't it, that if people didn't

22     sign those declarations they were going to be and, indeed, were

23     terminated?

24             Isn't that what happened?

25        A.   I have said earlier that any staff who did not sign the solemn

Page 24499

 1     declaration, that their employment was terminated.

 2        Q.   Have a look at the number at the top of that dispatch.  You'll

 3     see it's number 09/4-382.  If you remember that for a second.

 4             And let me show you the next exhibit, which is

 5     Prosecution tab 14.  The exhibit number, P354.

 6             Do you have that on your screen now?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   You see, this is from Mr. Zupljanin on -- also on the

 9     10th of April, and he's making reference to that document we just looked

10     at, 09/4-382, which he refers to as communications about the "forced"

11     formation of organisational units of the Serb MUP.  And he says:  "We

12     hereby warn you that this is not forced in any way.  It's about legal and

13     legitimate organs in the Serb Republic."

14             And then in the next paragraph, the last two sentences say:

15             "They are to sign a formal statement in accordance with the Law

16     on Internal Affairs of the Serb Republic of BiH.  This should be no

17     different from the statement of the ex-minister of internal affairs and

18     should have nothing to do with the so-called statement of loyalty, as was

19     noted in the dispatch ..."

20             From Mr. Delimustafic.

21             And he goes on to say:  "This dispatch," I think it refers to

22     Mr. Delimustafic's, "-- doesn't have legal effect in the territory of the

23     Serb republic ... and is being put out of force."

24             Did you see this document?  Were you aware of this in 1992?

25        A.   To be honest, I'm not sure.  I may have; I may not have.  But in

Page 24500

 1     late April - maybe on the 27th - some laws were adopted; among others,

 2     the Law on Internal Affairs of the RS.

 3             I'm not sure about this though.  I don't know if I ever had a

 4     chance to look at it or if I was even informed of it.  I may have seen it

 5     at the time.  Especially since this dispatch, to my mind, focuses on the

 6     signing of solemn declarations by CSB staff.

 7        Q.   And you'll see there's reference that this be done by the

 8     15th of April; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Let's go to one more.  This is Exhibit P355; tab 15 of the

11     Prosecution's list.

12             You see the first page of the document.  This is also dated the

13     10th of April, 1992.  And I would tell you that it comes from

14     Mr. Zupljanin.  We'll see the last page in a bit.

15             But it's to various SJB chiefs and to, I guess, chiefs of CSB

16     departments and also to the presidents of certain Serb municipalities

17     about conclusions from the enlarged centre council session held on

18     6th of April, 1992.

19             First of all, can you tell me, do you know what the centre

20     council was in Banja Luka CSB?  Who or what does that refer to?

21        A.   I don't know about the council of the centre.  But I suppose that

22     it's the professional collegium.  That's what we called it.  And I would

23     not know who the members of the council were.

24        Q.   Let me take you to, I guess it's page 3 in the B/C/S, and also

25     page 3 of the English.  It's item number 3.  And my English translation

Page 24501

 1     says:

 2             "Upon the receipt of their new post assignments, authorised

 3     employees will have to sign a solemn declaration, the text of which is

 4     identical to that of the solemn declaration from the previous Law on

 5     Internal Affairs.  The employees were given the deadline of 15 April ...

 6     to sign the declaration.  Those who fail to sign the declaration by that

 7     date will have their employment with the Serbian Republic Ministry of

 8     internal affairs terminated."

 9             You told us you signed the declaration.  And I take it, did you

10     sign it before the 15th of April?

11        A.   Well, I signed the solemn declaration as soon as the department

12     chief Stevan Markovic gave me the declaration to sign.  And I signed in

13     his presence.  May have been on the 5th, or the 6th, or the

14     10th of April.  I can't remember the date.

15        Q.   Do you remember, did you read the declaration before you signed

16     it?

17        A.   Certainly.

18        Q.   Did you compare the language of the one you signed with the

19     language of the old solemn declaration from the Socialist Republic of

20     BiH MUP to satisfy yourself that it was identical?

21        A.   I didn't have the old solemn declaration on me.  But the text of

22     the solemn declaration itself, in my opinion, was identical, apart from

23     one part, the previous solemn declarations that I signed as a soldier of

24     the JNA and when taking up employment with the organs of the interior.

25        Q.   Before I leave this document, if we could go to page 5 in the

Page 24502

 1     English.  And it's -- yes, it's the last page in B/C/S.

 2             Item number 17, Witness, says:

 3             "All authorised employees who do not sign the solemn declaration

 4     and thus have no intention of remaining in the service shall return ...

 5     weapons and equipment ..."

 6             Were you aware, did that happen?  Did those employees who did not

 7     sign have to turn in their weapons and equipment?

 8        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, in all our documents or enactments there's an

 9     obligation of MUP employees, in case of leaving the service or retiring

10     or, God forbid, dying - in that case, it's the obligation of their

11     families - to return the relevant items.  When I retired, I returned my

12     side-arm and the handcuffs, the baton.  So that all staff who, for any

13     reasons, leave the organs of the interior or move on to other related

14     organs must return any items issued to them.

15        Q.   Sorry, I'm having trouble with my transcript.

16             Let me show you, then, another document.

17             MR. HANNIS:  If we can look at P510.  I believe this is tab 90 in

18     the Prosecution's list.

19        Q.   This is -- Witness, this is the old Socialist Republic of BiH

20     Law on Internal Affairs, and I want to look at Article 41, which has the

21     text of the solemn declaration as it read then.

22             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to page number 12 in the English,

23     it's ERN P0035097 in the B/C/S, to Article 41.

24        Q.   And with the help of the usher, I can hand you a hard copy.

25     Thank you.

Page 24503

 1             If you would take a look at that, sir.  At the end of Article 41

 2     is the declaration, and in my English translation it says:

 3             "I hereby declare that I will perform the duties of an authorised

 4     official conscientiously and responsibly, that I will abide by the

 5     constitution and the law, that I will protect the constitutional order

 6     and the rights, freedoms, and security of working people and citizens

 7     with all my strength, and that I will perform these and other duties and

 8     tasks of an authorised official even when the performance of such duties

 9     and tasks puts my own life at risk."

10             I know it may be asking you a lot to ask you if you remember

11     that's the solemn declaration that you made when you first joined the MUP

12     back in 1979.  Do you have any reason to doubt that it was as it's worded

13     here?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... then I'd like to have you

16     look at and compare the solemn declaration as it's worded in the new

17     RS Law on Internal Affairs from March of 1992.

18             This is Exhibit P530, tab 91 on the Prosecution list.  And I will

19     have the usher hand you a hard copy of this one.

20        A.   Thank you.

21        Q.   And I'll grant you that they're similar but I put it to you that

22     they're not identical.

23             This one says:

24             "I hereby state that I will execute the duties of an authorised

25     official in a conscientious and responsible manner, that I will strictly

Page 24504

 1     follow the constitution and laws, that I shall protect with all my

 2     strength the constitutionally established order of the republic, rights,

 3     freedoms, and security, and that I shall execute these duties and other

 4     duties of an authorised official even when my life is in danger."

 5             You'll notice there's no reference to rights, freedoms, and

 6     security of working people and citizens.  So that's one change that's

 7     noticeable.  You weren't aware of that at the time when you signed your

 8     solemn declaration in April of 1992, were you?

 9        A.   Well, you see, the solemn declaration that I signed in April, to

10     my mind, only differs from the solemn declaration as it was in 1990 when

11     I took up employment.  In the sentence mentioning the constitutional

12     order of the republic, and let me tell you, I lived in that republic and

13     it's normal for the solemn declaration to mention the order of the

14     republic.  If this were another country, the language would probably be

15     the same:  The order of the republic.  Meaning the republic where you

16     live.

17             And as for the rights, freedoms, and security, I personally do

18     not see any difference, apart from the order of the republic.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... what's missing, at least as

20     I read the English, is there is no reference to working people and

21     citizens in the new one; whereas, they were specifically referred to in

22     the old one.

23        A.   Correct.  The new solemn declaration does not include that.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you this:  There, it just uses the term

25     "republic," but I think we've seen a couple of declarations that were

Page 24505

 1     signed in April 1992 where there was a specific reference to the republic

 2     of -- to the Serbian Republic of BiH.  Do you recall if that term was on

 3     the declaration that you signed?  Not just the word "republic," but

 4     "Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 5        A.   Believe me, I have just said if it were, let's say, the Republic

 6     of Croatia or the Republic of Macedonia, it would also be a republic.

 7     But I can't recall clearly, but I'm pretty sure that the language was

 8     Republika Srpska, because that is the country where I live.  That's my

 9     personal understanding.  That's how I see it.

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  You can set those aside for now.  I want to

11     show you Exhibit P470.  This is at tab 16 from the Prosecution's list.

12             Witness, this will be on your screen in a moment.  It's a

13     newspaper article from Glas, dated the 16th of April, 1992.

14             And it's called -- the headline is: "Preserving peace as a joint

15     concern."

16             I don't know, can you read it there, or is it too small?  I can

17     give you a hard copy.

18        A.   Thank you.

19        Q.   It may be easier for you to read.

20        A.   Thank you.

21        Q.   And this is a story about, on the 15th of April, the mayor

22     Mr. Predrag Radic received a delegation from the SDA, and according to

23     Mr. Krzic one of the reasons for this meeting was because of a statement

24     from Mr. Zupljanin that his service was unable to give cast-iron

25     guarantees about the security of citizens' property?

Page 24506

 1             Do you see that in the first paragraph?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.

 3             MR. HANNIS:  Sorry about that.  And if we could go to page 3 of

 4     the English.

 5        Q.   And for you, I think I've marked it in a blue highlighter, the

 6     paragraph where I want you to look next.

 7             It mentions the SDA delegation was seeking a postponement of the

 8     application of the Law on Internal Affairs so that Muslims who did not

 9     wish to sign a statement of loyalty could remain in the CSB.

10             So this is the 15th, the deadline for signing, the SDA is meeting

11     with the mayor and asking if there could be a postponement.  And it says:

12     "The request was rejected."

13             Did you know that?  Did you know about that discussion in

14     Banja Luka?

15        A.   I was not aware of this discussion.  I was not aware of it being

16     held in the Banja Luka town.

17        Q.   And if you could go on to the next paragraph, I think it's the

18     second sentence.  It says: "Bajazit Jahic, chief of public security at

19     the CSB, also spoke at this meeting and said he had stopped working today

20     because he did not wish to sign a statement of loyalty ..."

21             Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Well, let me request --

24             MR. HANNIS:  Could we go into private session for a moment.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

Page 24507

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Next, Witness, I'd like to show you Exhibit 2D018.  This is at

25     tab 17 in the Prosecution's list.

Page 24509

 1             Sort of going chronologically here, sir, this is a dispatch,

 2     number 11-98, dated the 16th of April, 1992 - it should be on your screen

 3     in a moment - from the chief.  And he's making reference to the extended

 4     collegium that was held earlier in the month, where it was decided all

 5     authorised officials employed at the CSB Banja Luka should sign a solemn

 6     declaration by the 15th of April.

 7             In the fourth paragraph, it says:

 8             "The obligations mentioned in this telegram do not apply to ...

 9     Prijedor and Kotor Varos SJB.  Authorised officials at these stations may

10     continue to wear the current insignia if they wish, until further

11     notice."  And then in parentheses it says: "(Until the political

12     situation in these municipalities is solved)."

13             Do you know anything about that?  Why was there an exception made

14     about signing the solemn declaration and wearing the insignia for

15     Prijedor and Kotor Varos?

16        A.   You can see from this dispatch that SJBs Prijedor and Kotor Varos

17     are exempted from signing the solemn declaration.  The reason for this is

18     the multi-ethnic composition of the SJB in Prijedor and the SJB in

19     Kotor Varos, as well as the multi-ethnic composition of the population in

20     those areas.  The majority population there, if you can say it that way,

21     maybe in inverted commas, because there were other nations living there

22     as well.  And you can see here that this applied until the resolution of

23     the political situation.

24        Q.   And isn't it a fact that the way that situation was resolved was

25     that the Serbs took over control in Prijedor at the end of April?

Page 24510

 1             Isn't that how they resolved the situation?

 2        A.   Well, that's what it says here.

 3        Q.   Well, no, what it says here is that there's a delay on the

 4     deadline until the political situation can be resolved.  And my question

 5     is:  Don't you know that the Serbs took control of Prijedor by taking

 6     over all the offices and placing themselves in those positions?  And

 7     that's how the situation was resolved, and then people in Prijedor had to

 8     sign the solemn declaration and start wearing the insignia of the RS MUP,

 9     or the Serbian Republic of BiH MUP.

10             That's what happened in Prijedor, right, around the

11     30th of April?

12             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but there

13     are far too many questions contained in here.

14             I would ask my colleague Mr. Hannis to stop after the first

15     question, whether he is aware, and then to continue with other questions,

16     instead of suggesting answers to him.

17             MR. HANNIS:  Well, that's one of the joys of cross-examination,

18     is to be able to suggest answers to a witness.

19             MR. ALEKSIC: [Interpretation] Maybe I misspoke.  You have that

20     right, of course.  However, I would like you to ask one question first,

21     and then when something is established, to go on suggesting other things.

22             MR. HANNIS:

23        Q.   Well, there wasn't a referendum held to resolve the political

24     situation in Prijedor, was there?  They didn't vote on it.

25        A.   Believe me, I don't know.

Page 24511

 1        Q.   Fair enough.  Thank you.

 2             Let me then go to Exhibit P560.  This is tab 21.  And, again,

 3     this is a newspaper article.

 4             And it may be helpful for you to have a hard copy.  Is that

 5     easier?

 6        A.   Thank you.

 7        Q.   This is another article from Glas.  I think dated the

 8     12th of May 1992.  An interview with Chief Zupljanin.

 9             And I've marked with a blue highlighter the parts I want to ask

10     you about.  In English, it's about ten or 12 lines up from the bottom.

11     You see a part there where it talks about the transformation of the

12     republic?  And Mr. Zupljanin is saying:  "In this area it went faster

13     than elsewhere ..."

14             Do you find that?  I think it's on the lower left of the first

15     column.

16        A.   I've read it.

17        Q.   Okay.  And there, he says:

18             "It went faster than elsewhere, and it was less painful, because

19     we started preparing for the transformation immediately after the

20     constitution of the Serbian Republic of BH came into force on

21     23 March of this year, and the internal affairs law on 27 March."

22             Do you recall what kind of preparations Mr. Zupljanin and

23     CSB Banja Luka were taking immediately after the 23rd and the

24     27 of March to prepare for this transformation?

25             Did you know about any of that?

Page 24512

 1        A.   In relation to this transformation and the preparations, I only

 2     know that the constitution of Republika Srpska was promulgated at the end

 3     of March, that a number of laws were enacted.  I don't know exactly which

 4     laws, but I do know that a new Law on Internal Affairs was enacted.  And

 5     I know that the constitution and the law contained the provisions

 6     stipulating that the people working in internal affairs were to receive

 7     new uniforms, with new insignia and new caps.  That's all I know.

 8             Now as to all these other things, preparations, that's something

 9     that I'm not aware of.

10        Q.   Fair enough.  The next sentence, he mentioned that they've

11     already changed the insignia, and employees who have stayed have signed

12     their solemn declaration.

13             And then he went on to say:

14             "I should say, as I have done [sic] earlier, that this

15     declaration is no different from the declaration ... employees had

16     to ... sign pursuant to the earlier law ..."

17             It seems to me that Mr. Zupljanin has, on several occasions,

18     repeated this, that there is no difference.  But we've seen that there

19     are differences.  Do you think that's because he knew there was a

20     difference but he didn't want to talk about it?  Do you have any idea why

21     he would say that when it's clear that there is a difference?

22             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Hannis, I'm not sure how helpful the witness's

23     answer to that question would be.  Because apart from being speculative,

24     it is possible to argue that substantially there's no difference between

25     the two forms of the solemn declaration.

Page 24513

 1             MR. HANNIS:  No substantial difference, Your Honour, but clearly

 2     not identical as was asserted.

 3             I take your point.  I'll withdraw the question.

 4        Q.   If you would go to the next section I've highlighted --

 5             MR. HANNIS:  And we have to go to page 2 of the English.

 6        Q.   -- Mr. Zupljanin is saying in the area of the Serbian Republic of

 7     BH there can only be -- there can be only the government of the Serbian

 8     people.  Thus, the problem of Prijedor has been settled.

 9             And this is on the 12th of May, so we know that was settled on

10     about the 30th of April.

11             He mentioned some problems remaining in Jajce and Kotor Varos.

12     He says: "I trust that in a peaceful way we shall have the government

13     taken over by the one who it belongs to."

14             Is he referring to the Serbian people there, as the one to whom

15     the government belongs?

16        A.   I've read it.  I have read the statement by Mr. Zupljanin.

17             I see no elements that I saw when I was signing the solemn

18     declaration.  In this specific case, the republic that was mentioned was

19     Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   Okay.  I guess you -- you don't know the answer to my question

21     about who he's referring to there when he says "we shall have the

22     government taken over by the one who it belongs to."

23        A.   Believe me, I don't know that.  You can interpret it in two

24     different ways, three different ways, even.

25        Q.   One more question on this document, if I may, Your Honour, before

Page 24514

 1     the break.

 2             In the next paragraph you'll see: "We shall keep the peace if we

 3     are carrying out the decisions of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

 4     Region of Krajina."

 5             And one of these is about giving back the weapons.

 6             You're aware that around this time there were operations, joint

 7     operations, by the police and the military to collect weapons in the

 8     Autonomous Region of Krajina; do you know about those operations?

 9        A.   I was not aware of that.

10        Q.   You didn't know about any of the operations in the -- throughout

11     the ARK in -- in almost all of the municipalities, where the police were

12     going to Muslim and Croat villages primarily and searching houses and

13     collecting weapons?  You didn't know about that in 1992?

14        A.   I was aware that in the Banja Luka town there were paramilitary

15     formations and armed civilians wearing different uniforms.  Military

16     police was in charge of paramilitary formations and uniformed

17     individuals.

18             And as for civilians who were armed, it was the organs of

19     internal affairs who were in charge of them.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, I think it's time for the break.

21             JUDGE HALL:  We move into closed session so the witness may be

22     escorted out.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24515

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  And we return in 20 minutes.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, we go into closed session.

 9                           [Closed session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The microphone of the accused should be

21     switched off.

22             MR. HANNIS:  I heard the interpreter say the microphone of the

23     accused should be switched off.  So I don't know if there's a microphone

24     on over there somewhere or not.

25        Q.   Just checking on a technical matter, sir.  Okay.

Page 24516

 1             Now let me talk a little bit -- go back in time a little bit and

 2     talk about some of the events leading up to the split of the former

 3     socialist MUP and the creation of the Serbian MUP in Bosnia.

 4             I'd like to show Exhibit P864.  And this is tab 5 of the

 5     Prosecution's binder.

 6             And, again, it's another newspaper article.  I don't know, does

 7     it help you to have the hard copies?

 8        A.   Okay.

 9        Q.   I don't know if it's easier to read than on the screen or not.

10        A.   Thank you.

11        Q.   This is dated the 5th of March, 1992, from Glas.  There are

12     actually two articles I want to ask you about.  The first one is about

13     the Krajina government in the offing.  And I think that's the one that's

14     at the top of the page with the photograph.  I've marked with the blue

15     highlighter the part that I wanted to ask you about.  I think it's the

16     third paragraph.  It mentions the results of a meeting of the Assembly of

17     the Autonomous Region of Krajina.  It said they passed a number of

18     decisions or adopted a number of decisions about the formation of some

19     important government departments, such as the decision about forming a

20     Security Services Centre for the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

21             Did you know about that, that the ARK Assembly had adopted a

22     decision to create a Security Services Centre of its own, apparently, in

23     early March 1992?

24        A.   Yes, I heard of that decision, and it's normal that I should,

25     because I was a member of an organ of the interior.

Page 24517

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And then I want to ask you about a second article,

 2     which my English translation says:

 3             "From the press conference of the chief of CSB, Banja Luka,

 4     Stojan Zupljanin, peace -- the strategic aim."

 5             And I want to go to the very end of the article.  My English

 6     translation reads:

 7             "To a journalist's question whether, in future, the Security

 8     Services Centre in Banja Luka would carry out the orders of the

 9     BH interior ministry, Zupljanin replied that the centre he was

10     responsible for would not carry out any orders of the Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina interior ministry that might possibly be directed against the

12     interests of the Serbian people."

13             Do you see that?  Were you aware that Mr. Zupljanin had made that

14     statement on the 4th of March, 1992?

15        A.   No, no.

16        Q.   You were a career policeman.  Were you aware of the Law on

17     Internal Affairs in existence at that time, in March 1992?  I think that

18     was the version of the law that was passed in January of 1990.  You knew

19     basically the provisions of your own Law on Internal Affairs; right?

20        A.   Of course, I knew some provisions.

21        Q.   It seems to me that refusing to obey an order from the minister

22     or the ministry would be in violation of the Law on the Interior,

23     wouldn't it?

24        A.   Well, that's how it should be.

25        Q.   And, for example, if hypothetically speaking, the --

Page 24518

 1     Mr. Delimustafic had issued a decision that from -- from now on all

 2     internal memos should be printed on green paper, and Mr. Zupljanin might

 3     feel that that was contrary to the interests of the Serbian people, in

 4     your opinion, would he be permitted to disobey such a decision, or an

 5     order, to use green paper?

 6        A.   Well, I think not.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let me show you, next, tab 8 in the Prosecution

 8     binder.  It's Exhibit 1D137.

 9             Again, with the usher's help, I'll hand you a hard copy.

10             It is a dispatch from CSB Banja Luka dated the

11     3rd of April, 1992.  And take a minute, if you want to read through it.

12     I'm not going to ask you about the whole thing.  I'm particularly

13     interested in the last -- the next-to-the-last paragraph, where

14     Mr. Zupljanin's talking about the security situation in the last

15     24 hours.

16             Let me know when you're ready for that question.

17             In that paragraph he says that: "Barricades were erected at the

18     approaches to Banja Luka and in the town itself by members of the Serbian

19     Defence Forces ..."

20             First of all, can you tell me, do you know who the so-called

21     Serbian Defence Forces were in Banja Luka on the 4th of April, 1993, the

22     SOS?

23        A.   Well, you see, as far as I know, the Serbian Defence Forces, SOS,

24     were members of the military, members of the Territorial Defence who were

25     armed, wearing military uniforms.  And there were even members of other

Page 24519

 1     formations with long-barrelled weapons.  They were military reservists

 2     and members of the military.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Help clarify for me, will you:  When you say "members of

 4     the military," do you mean JNA, or Territorial Defence, active duty or

 5     reservists, or both?  What exactly do you mean there?

 6        A.   Well, a member of the Territorial Defence.

 7        Q.   And by ethnicity, were these Serbs, Muslims, Croats; do you know?

 8        A.   I think that this is about Serbs.

 9        Q.   All right.  And Mr. Zupljanin reports that the SOS presented the

10     Crisis Staff with certain conditions which were accepted after lengthy

11     discussions.

12             "One of those conditions was the application of the Law on

13     Internal Affairs of the Serbian Republic should begin immediately and

14     solemn declarations signed."

15             Do you know why Serb members of the Territorial Defence would be

16     insisting on application of the Law on Internal Affairs and the signing

17     of solemn declarations?  What do they have to do with the MUP?

18        A.   As far as I know, they had nothing to do with the CSB, nor could

19     they influence it.  And I heard about these demands.  They were allegedly

20     demanding that the Yugoslav People's Army, which, at the time, was

21     withdrawing from the barracks, but they were also along the separation

22     lines where there were armed conflicts.  And when they were withdrawing

23     with their weapons and pulling out of the barracks, that may have been

24     the main reason for their fear.  Well, maybe not fear.  But for their

25     demands that the army place itself in the service of the people.

Page 24520

 1             Why one of the conditions should have been that the police should

 2     sign solemn declarations under the constitution of the RS and put

 3     insignia on their uniforms, well, that may have been because at the time

 4     in Banja Luka, and most probably elsewhere too, there were various

 5     people - I won't call them formations - but people wearing uniforms with

 6     various insignia, various kinds of uniforms, and they were -- they had

 7     long-barrelled weapons.  And I suppose that the reason was to be able to

 8     tell with certainty who was a member of the security services.  In other

 9     words, the police.  That's my opinion.

10        Q.   Okay.  What about these SOS?  Did you see them around town at

11     these barricades?  And what kind of uniforms were they wearing; if you

12     saw them?

13        A.   Believe me, I know, I heard of their existence, but I haven't

14     seen them around so I couldn't tell what kind of uniforms they're wearing

15     and with what kind of insignia or who was their leader or anything else.

16        Q.   Before we leave the document, the last page in English and the

17     next-to-the-last paragraph on the last page in B/C/S, Chief Zupljanin

18     again mentions he would like to remind you that the text of the solemn

19     declaration is identical to that of the solemn declaration in the

20     previous law.

21             So, again, we see him mentioning that.

22             SOS, let me show you a couple of more documents about that.

23     Prosecution tab 10; exhibit number P536.

24             And, again, if I could have the assistance of the usher, I'll

25     hand you a hard copy.

Page 24521

 1             And this is from the Glas newspaper on Saturday, the

 2     4th of April.  Actually, there are a number of articles I want to ask you

 3     about, and I've handed you a hard copy of page 2 in the B/C/S.

 4             MR. HANNIS:  If we could go to that in the e-court.  And the

 5     first article is called:  The word of the warrior.

 6             It talks about the municipal Crisis Staff accepting conditions

 7     from the Serbian Defence Forces.

 8        Q.   You see that?  I think that's the big article at the top of the

 9     page with the picture next to it.

10             Did you find that?

11        A.   [No interpretation]

12        Q.   And do you recognise the gentleman in the picture on the top

13     right?  Do you recognise any of those guys?

14        A.   The second from the right is Mr. Brdjanin, who lived in my

15     neighbourhood, not far from where I lived.

16        Q.   I'm sorry, did you want to add something?

17        A.   You can believe me that, on the left and right -- to the left or

18     the right of Mr. Brdjanin there may be the late president of the

19     Banja Luka municipal assembly, Mr. Radic, but I cannot be sure.

20        Q.   And do you see in the story that President Radic declared that

21     all the SOS demands had been agreed to, although some in a slightly

22     modified form.

23             Do you recall that?

24        A.   I remember the event.  I've just seen it.  Of course, I remember

25     the event because on that day -- or, actually, at night, at midnight,

Page 24522

 1     there were roadblocks in and around Banja Luka, even in front of the

 2     municipal assembly, as well as in some neighbourhoods.  It has been a

 3     long time, but it's normal that I should remember.

 4             Whether or not the demands of the SOS were accepted, well, if my

 5     mind is working properly, all these documents say that the solemn

 6     declaration will be signed and that the insignia on the uniforms of

 7     police officers will be changed.

 8        Q.   Were you aware that one of the demands of the SOS in early

 9     April 1992 was that the JNA Banja Luka Corps be reinforced and that there

10     should be no contemplation of any withdrawal of war equipment or

11     manpower.

12             Did you know that was one of their demands?

13        A.   When I was speaking about the demands of the SOS, S-O-S, I said

14     that one of the demands -- or the reason for one of the demands was the

15     withdrawal of the JNA from the barracks and their taking their weapons

16     with them.

17        Q.   Yes.  And the SOS was insisting as one of their conditions that

18     the JNA not be allowed to leave; right?

19        A.   I don't know what exactly their demands were, believe me.  But it

20     may have been one of their demands.

21        Q.   And in that article, I think I've circled one of the boxes in the

22     lower right under the picture, there's an article - do you find it? -

23     entitled:  Peace in the interest of all three nations.

24             Do you find that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24523

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... it's on page --

 2        A.   [No interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  It's on page 6 of the English.

 4             "Replying to a reporter's question about what to do with the

 5     Security Service Centre's employees who did not sign the statement of

 6     loyalty to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia

 7     by the 6th April, Stojan Zupljanin briefly said: 'They will not be able

 8     to continue working.'"

 9             Did you know about that?

10        A.   I did not know about that statement of Mr. Zupljanin.  But the

11     documents I have seen here said that staff were to sign the solemn

12     declaration.  And it was normal for disciplinary proceedings to be

13     instigated on the grounds of not signing the solemn declaration.

14        Q.   And then did you know that part, another part, of the demands of

15     the SOS was the dismissal of certain Banja Luka Corps officers and public

16     utility managers who had "voted against Yugoslavia."

17             Did you know about that?

18        A.   I did not know about that.

19        Q.   Okay.  Sorry.  Thank you.

20             Let me show you one other document relating to SOS.  This is

21     tab 19; Exhibit P552.

22             This is another article from Glas dated the 29th of April, 1992.

23     And it's about the formation of a special police detachment to be formed

24     at CSB Banja Luka.

25             Mr. Zupljanin is reported as having said that:

Page 24524

 1             "As far as the SOS, which had been placed under jurisdiction of

 2     the CSB by a decision of the Krajina Assembly, several of those were

 3     reliable and experienced fighters who would be tested for the special

 4     detachment.  Others would be assigned to the reserve police and the

 5     Krajina Territorial Defence.  The SOS would thus virtually cease to

 6     exist."

 7             Is that consistent with what you know about what happened to the

 8     former members of the SOS?

 9        A.   Well, you see, I heard that the special unit had been formed

10     sometime towards the end of April in Banja Luka.  I also heard that

11     members of the military from Slavonia and reservists with some sort of

12     war experience were included in that special unit.  I heard that the

13     commander of that special unit was a military person.

14        Q.   Do you remember who the commander was by name?

15        A.   The commander of the special unit was a Captain Lukic from the

16     military.

17        Q.   Did he then become a policeman?  Because it was my understanding

18     this special detachment was a police unit.

19        A.   No.  As far as I know, as far as I can remember, they were not

20     members of the police.  Maybe I'm mistaken, but as far as I know, they

21     were not members of the police.

22        Q.   What kind of uniforms did they wear, the special police

23     detachment?

24        A.   I can only assume because I haven't seen them.  And I assume that

25     they wore camouflage multi-coloured uniforms and that they had berets.

Page 24525

 1        Q.   You say in 1992 in Banja Luka you never saw the special police

 2     detachment or any members of the special police detachment; is that

 3     right?

 4        A.   I did not see them, but I heard.  Maybe I should give a short

 5     introduction in relation to this event that I did not witness, myself.

 6             The Security Services Centre, both in the socialist system and

 7     today, celebrates the 13th of May as the Day of the Organs of Internal

 8     Affairs.  On that day, organs of internal affairs present to the citizens

 9     their technical equipment and their achievements.  They go to visit

10     schools, high schools.  Pupils from high schools come to visit them to

11     see the vehicles, the technical equipment in the forensic department, and

12     any equipment that has to do with the work of the police.  Members of the

13     police execute special training in order to showcase their work, such as

14     defence from an attack with knife, or other sort of attack, and things

15     like that.

16             So I heard that on the 13th of May, 1992, during the special

17     celebratory parade, members of the special unit also took part in the

18     parade.  I did not see them about the town.

19             I don't know the exact reason anymore why I myself did not attend

20     the parade in Banja Luka.  It's a pity that I didn't.  Everybody from the

21     police was there, and they presented the weaponry that they had.  Maybe

22     some long barrels; I wouldn't know exactly what.

23        Q.   Well, let me show, then, Exhibit P1092.  This is tab 60,

24     Prosecution binder.

25             Let me, with the usher's assistance, hand you six pages, hard

Page 24526

 1     copy.  Thank you.

 2             Sir, if you've have a look at the top of that page.  It says it's

 3     a list of members of the Banja Luka CSB special police detachment payroll

 4     for August 1992.

 5             You see the first name there is Mirko Lukic.  Is that the Lukic

 6     you told us about earlier who was the commander?

 7        A.   I don't know his first name.  I know that he is a military man,

 8     and I know that his rank was captain and that he was called Lukic.

 9        Q.   How about number 2, Ljuban Ecim?  He was a member of the

10     Banja Luka CSB, a policeman; right?

11        A.   Let me tell you one thing: In the building, on the premises of

12     the Banja Luka CSB, I heard that some of the members of the Security

13     Services Centre from the state security branch were members of the

14     special unit.  That's when I heard that Ljuban Ecim and

15     Zdravko Samardzija went to the special unit.  I see those names here on

16     the list, and I know those people from my work.

17        Q.   If you'll look at page 6, and it's -- I believe it's --

18             MR. HANNIS:  In English, it's page 7.  If we could go to page 6

19     in B/C/S in the e-court.

20        Q.   So we'd see the last name is number 169, and to the bottom we see

21     for the special-purpose detachment command, signed by, apparently,

22     Zdravko Samardzija.  And then the chief of the centre, Stojan Zupljanin.

23             Do you see that?

24             MR. HANNIS:  I'm sorry, we need to go one page further in the

25     B/C/S, in e-court.

Page 24527

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that.

 2             MR. HANNIS:

 3        Q.   This seems to indicate to me that this special police detachment

 4     must have something to do with the police.  Otherwise, why is

 5     Mr. Zupljanin signing on this payroll?

 6        A.   I have to say, once again, that the special unit did not belong

 7     to the CSB.  It is true that two men whom I know, Ljuban Ecim and

 8     Zdravko Samardzija, according to what I heard, went to the special unit.

 9     I also heard that some of the other people who worked there went to the

10     special unit.  However, what functions they had, I wouldn't know.  And I

11     also don't know that they were members of the Banja Luka CSB.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'll accept that you don't know that.

13             Let me now turn to -- I'll come back to the special police later,

14     but let me turn now to some questions about communications.  I think I

15     can do one or two here.

16             Let me show you --

17             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. --

18             MR. HANNIS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- Witness, before we move on to something else,

20     could I just ask you to clarify your last answer to the Prosecutor.

21     Because this has some importance to the trial to establish, if possible,

22     what the affiliation was between the special unit and the CSB.

23             Now, you have testified several times that you knew that they

24     were not a part of the CSB, and yet, in your last answer, you - let me

25     see if I can get it back on the screen - you say that you didn't know

Page 24528

 1     whether they were members of the Banja Luka CSB.

 2             So there's a difference between knowing that they were not and

 3     not knowing if they were.  So which is it?  What do you base your

 4     assertion that the special unit had nothing to do with the police?  What

 5     is that based on?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe it was a wordplay again.

 7             I heard that special police had been established.  I did not know

 8     that they belonged to the Security Services Centre.  I heard that some of

 9     the members of the Security Services Centre, or the State Security

10     Service, went to the special unit, as well as some other employees.

11             Having seen the list, I gave you the example of Mr. Ecim and

12     Mr. Samardzija, whom I know personally from my work.  Now, when they went

13     and what their functions were, I don't know even today.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I see.  But if the interpretation was correct of

15     what you just told me in your answer, you seem, yourself, to accept that

16     the unit was called the special police unit.  Because that is what you

17     just called it.

18             So it would seem to me that a special police unit must, somehow,

19     be a part of the police in the area.

20             So I ask you again:  On which basis do you assert that the

21     special police unit had no affiliations with the CSB in Banja Luka?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my terminology is such

23     that we call a special unit a unit that could belong to the military or

24     to the police or maybe even to some other organisational formations.

25             So when I say "special unit," I'm not claiming that that unit

Page 24529

 1     belonged to the Security Services Centre.  I know that it was

 2     established.  I know that it existed.  I know that some of our workers

 3     went to work there.  But to say that it was part of the Security Services

 4     Centre, I have to say that I've never seen them except the parade on the

 5     13th of May, 1992 -- excuse me, I haven't even seen them then.  I only

 6     heard that they took part in the parade on the 13th of May, 1992.

 7             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So am I to conclude that the basis on which you

 8     assert that the special unit had nothing to do with the CSB is only that

 9     you never saw them in Banja Luka?

10             Is this correctly understood?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's my personal opinion.  But

12     I'm sure that I would have heard from other members at the time that this

13     special unit belonged to the Security Services Centre.

14             As far as I know from my conversations with my colleagues, I

15     haven't seen them.  Believe it or not, I haven't seen them even in the

16     Banja Luka town.  There were stories about them being sent to the

17     battle-fields in Kupres, Doboj, and other places.  That's what I know

18     about the special unit.

19             JUDGE HARHOFF:  But that last piece of information that you have

20     just offered, namely, that they were send to the battle-fields in Kupres

21     and Doboj and other places, that does not exclude, does it, that they

22     could have been, or were, in fact, a part of the police force in

23     Banja Luka.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I can say that

25     with certainty I don't know.

Page 24530

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  I think this is as far as we'll get

 2     with this.

 3             Please proceed --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hannis, just one moment.

 5             Mr. Witness, just to clarify this:  Judge Harhoff asked you --

 6     said to you that you told in -- in your answer you seem, yourself, to

 7     accept that the unit was called the special police unit.

 8             And then he asked you a question, and you started answering --

 9     answering it; and, as from then, you don't speak about the special police

10     unit anymore -- you speak about -- you talk about special unit.

11             Is there a purpose in this restriction?  Was it the police unit,

12     whether it was CSB Banja Luka or not, or don't you even know that?

13             So my question is:  Can we agree on the term "special police

14     unit," or do you only accept the term "special unit" of whatever else it

15     would be?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept the word "the specials,"

17     or "special unit."  And if I said "special police," well, look at the

18     list.  It says "list of the members of the special police."  The word

19     that I normally use is "the specials."  Whether they were part of the

20     Security Services Centre, I wouldn't know.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But then I understand you accept that the

22     specials were police.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What -- what else were they, then, in your

25     opinion?  Were they military or paramilitary?  What were they?

Page 24531

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, in my opinion, if a

 2     captain, a military person, was appointed as their commander, then, in my

 3     opinion, this unit, "the specials," were part of the military, regardless

 4     of the fact that I see the name of Ljuban Ecim here on the list.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MR. HANNIS:

 7        Q.   It's been a long time, but I don't remember if you answered my

 8     question, though, about if they're not police, why is -- why is

 9     Mr. Zupljanin signing off on this document that purports to be a payroll?

10        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I really, really do not know.

11        Q.   Okay.  Okay.  I'll accept that.

12             Let me show you some more documents involving references to

13     special police, or special police detachment, or special purposes

14     detachment, of CSB Banja Luka.  And the first one is P567.  Tab 27 in the

15     Prosecution's binder.  I can hand you a hard copy.  It's two pages, with

16     the usher's assistance.

17             I'll tell you, it's dated the 21st of May, 1992, and it's from --

18     on the back page you'll see it's from Chief Dragomir Kutlija in

19     Bosanski Novi SJB, addressed to the CSB Banja Luka, to the command of the

20     special purposes detachment, and to Ljubomir Ecim personally.  And

21     basically you'll see it's a complaint about some of the actions of a

22     special unit of the CSB regarding their activities in assisting with

23     searching some areas in Bosanski Novi looking for weapons and explosives.

24     And the second paragraph says:

25             "On the 15th of May, 1992, the leading team of Bosanski Novi SJB,

Page 24532

 1     including police inspector ... Skondric, sent the special unit of the CSB

 2     in a BOV, armoured fighting vehicle, and a Pinzgauer to search the Muslim

 3     part of Bosanska Kostajnica."

 4             And as you see, the police chief at Novi is sending this

 5     complaint to Ecim and to the command of the special purposes detachment

 6     in CSB Banja Luka.  Doesn't that suggest to you that that unit was

 7     related to the police in CSB Banja Luka?

 8        A.   In my opinion - and I emphasise "my opinion" - this document does

 9     not show that the specials were part of the Banja Luka Security Services

10     Centre.

11        Q.   Does it not indicate that they must have been at least some time

12     located there or picked up mail there, because it's addressed to CSB?

13        A.   In my opinion, this document was sent to Ljuban Ecim.  I told you

14     that he was one of the two colleagues for whom I heard that they went to

15     the specials.

16        Q.   All right.  Let me show you another one that's maybe a little

17     closer to town.  This is tab 40 in the Prosecution binder; Exhibit P1081.

18             And, again, with assistance from the usher, I can hand you a hard

19     copy.

20             Witness, you'll see in a minute this is dated the

21     4th of June, 1992, and you'll see on the back, at the bottom, it's

22     apparently from Vladimir Tutus, chief of the SJB in Banja Luka.

23             You know who he was; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And on the front page it's addressed to the Serbian MUP, I guess

Page 24533

 1     that's the headquarters, and to Banja Luka CSB chief, Mr. Zupljanin.

 2             And it's information about a conflict between members of the

 3     Banja Luka CSB special detachment and the Banja Luka SJB Budzak,

 4     police station, police officers in front of a couple of catering

 5     facilities.

 6             Did you know about this?  Did you hear about this in

 7     June of 1992?

 8        A.   This is the first time that I hear about this event and the first

 9     time that I see this document.

10        Q.   I'm not sure if it's the bottom of your page one or the top of

11     your page two.  There's a paragraph that begins, in my English

12     translation, saying:

13             "The behaviour of the special detachment members is contrary to

14     the prescribed norms and regulations for employees of internal affairs

15     organs, which is visible in their arrogant and violent behaviour, their

16     evasion of legal provisions of the Banja Luka CJB police officers, and

17     even in the commission of criminal acts which are being officially

18     prosecuted."

19             Does that not suggest that these are policemen?

20        A.   I've read the document.  And I can tell you I am seeing it for

21     the first time.  This is the first time I hear of this event.

22        Q.   Okay.  I understand that.  But do you agree with me: The way that

23     Chief Tutus has written that it suggests that those guys were members of

24     the police?

25        A.   Well, you see, it says here that they were in camouflage uniforms

Page 24534

 1     with police insignia.  In one part of the text, you can even see that

 2     they are described as wearing partly -- parts of uniform; whereas, other

 3     parts were civilian.  Some vehicles are specified, as well as police

 4     registration plates.

 5        Q.   All right.  Would you agree that Mr. Tutus apparently thought

 6     they were members of the police, because, otherwise, why would he direct

 7     this complaint to the MUP headquarters and to CSB chief, Mr. Zupljanin,

 8     and not to the military or the TO or the Crisis Staff or anybody else?

 9        A.   Well, you know what, Mr. Prosecutor, such events, such illegal

10     conduct directed against citizens is something that we could find several

11     examples of in the town of Banja Luka.

12             I may have said already that many members of the army,

13     reservists, members of different groups who were wearing particular

14     clothes, who were armed, sporting different kinds of uniforms, such as

15     blue ones, camouflage ones, wearing different insignia on their caps or

16     uniforms, well, there was a lot of that.  Perhaps this information was

17     sent to the chief of the centre to notify him of such events.

18        Q.   Let me show you another one then.

19             Tab 42, Exhibit P1082.  I'll just have you look at this one on

20     the screen; it's only one page.

21             Okay.  This is an Official Note compiled by Nikola Tanasic and

22     Sinisa Ponorac about a Svetko Makivic, and apparently they stopped him at

23     1.30 in the morning on that day.  And when he was asked about why he was

24     out after curfew, he said it didn't apply to him because he was a MUP

25     special forces member on his way back from the front in Kotor Varos.

Page 24535

 1             And you see, further on, he said, "Call Stojan Zupljanin or Kesic

 2     for me so I can talk to them.  Who are you to stop me?"

 3             And near the next -- the next-to-the-last paragraph, they

 4     mentioned that they told him to go to Banja Luka MUP, which he did, and

 5     then the duty officer Miladic telephoned and verified that the individual

 6     in question indeed was a member of the special unit.

 7             Now, that reference to the duty officer, I take it, refers to a

 8     duty officer in the police; right?

 9        A.   Concerning this Official Note, it was drafted by the members of

10     the police.  They reported on having stopped Svetko Makivic at a

11     particular location.  It indicates that he was a member of the army.

12        Q.   I'm sorry, where does it indicate that he was a member of the

13     army.  It says a military police identification card.  Is that what you

14     mean?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  The military police.  It says he was a member of the

16     military police.  And he said that police employees could exercise no

17     control over him.  He basically belittled them, saying he didn't need any

18     police passes of sorts.

19             In the penultimate paragraph --

20        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... this is --

21        A.   -- it is stated that the duty operations officer was Miladic.  In

22     the job classification, he was a member of the military police.  And it

23     turns out that these policemen notified the duty operations officer in

24     the police.  That is my opinion, and this is my conclusion, based on the

25     Official Note.

Page 24536

 1        Q.   So Miladic, the duty officer, was a policeman or a military

 2     person; do you know?

 3        A.   Well, I really can't recall.

 4        Q.   If, indeed, Mr. Makivic was a military policeman, does that

 5     suggest the possibility to you that the special police detachment was

 6     actually a joint unit, made up of both police and military personnel?

 7        A.   Let me tell you, I said I heard around town that they were in the

 8     specials and that they included both army members and some employees of

 9     the CSB who had joined the specials, who may have been members of the TO.

10     I really can't say anything else.  I don't remember.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I'm passed the time for the break, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we have the previous page of the document

14     back on the screen for a moment, please.

15             Thank you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  So we go into closed session for the witness to be

17     escorted out.

18                           [Closed session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24537

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Witness, next I'd like to show you Exhibit P1084.  This is tab 44

 8     in the Prosecution's binder.

 9             This is an Official Note relating to an event on the

10     19th of June, 1992, regarding an individual named Gojko Racic, a member

11     of the reserve, that is, the special police detachment.

12             I don't know, can you read that on the screen?  Do you want to

13     have a hard copy?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let me know when you're ready to go to the second page.

16     There's just a paragraph on it.

17        A.   I've read it.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you -- well, I'm sorry, I have a question that I

19     probably should go into private session to ask.

20             MR. HANNIS:  If I may.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 24538











11 Pages 24538-24541 redacted. Private session.















Page 24542

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

20             MR. HANNIS:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Witness, you'll see this is an information dated 24 June 1992 to

22     the CSB chief.  That would have been Mr. Zupljanin.  And it's from

23     Mr. Tutus, chief of the SJB in Banja Luka.

24             If you want to read the whole thing, let me know when you're

25     done.

Page 24543

 1        A.   Very well.

 2             I've read it.

 3        Q.   And you'll see Chief Tutus is informing Mr. Zupljanin about some

 4     of the problems [indiscernible] concerned negative behaviour by

 5     Banja Luka CSB special police detachment members.  And we see a reference

 6     to a couple that we already talked about.

 7             And in the last two paragraphs, Chief Tutus says he's attached

 8     information and Official Notes about these events, and notes that they've

 9     already sent a large number of such notes between the 22nd of May and the

10     19th of June.  And then he reminds Chief Zupljanin about some of his

11     previous dispatches, apparently, which set forth Zupljanin's

12     determination to have the service function in accordance with the rules

13     on the work of organs of the interior and the rules of the conduct of

14     their employees.

15             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honours, those aren't on my list, but those

16     dispatches, 11-154 of 29 May, is -- and the other one, are Exhibits 1D85

17     and P1007, I believe, in evidence.

18             So does that not suggest that at least some of these individuals

19     were members of the Department of the Interior, because why else

20     reference the rules on conduct of employees of the Department of

21     Interior, or the Ministry of Interior?

22        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I told you about my knowledge concerning the

23     specials.  I told you what I knew about the members of the specials.  The

24     events described by Mr. Tutus, the chief of the SJB, which he forwarded

25     in this letter to the chief is something I can neither deny nor confirm.

Page 24544

 1             First of all, I was not a participant in these events in the

 2     field, where the competent police stations had territorial jurisdiction.

 3             Also, I am not familiar with the names and with the people who

 4     were members of the specials.  I am not trying to say that these events

 5     are unimportant.  I don't know who were people who participated in these

 6     events and whether they were members of the specials or not.

 7             When someone introduces himself or herself during an ID check or

 8     at the time of being brought in the station following a certain event, in

 9     my view, is insufficient to try and establish whether the particular

10     person is a member of this or that military or paramilitary unit.

11        Q.   Okay.  I'm not sure you answered my original question, though.

12             Can you explain why the SJB chief, a policeman, is writing to his

13     superior at the CSB, chief Mr. Zupljanin, complaining about the conduct

14     of certain members of the special police detachment and making reference

15     to the rules on the work of organs of the interior and the rules on

16     conduct of those employees unless he wanted or expected the chief to do

17     something about these individuals and their work?

18             If these people were military personnel, why would he be writing

19     to Mr. Zupljanin and not asking Mr. Zupljanin to contact the military and

20     do something about it?

21        A.   Believe me when I say I don't know why.  The best person to ask

22     would be Mr. Tutus, the SJB chief.

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated] ... well, this one we're looking at

24     right --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 24545

 1             MR. HANNIS:

 2        Q.   The one we're looking at right now, P1088, one of the

 3     individuals, Svetko Makivic, appears on the list of special police

 4     detachment people that we looked at, the payroll document P1092, before,

 5     as does Gojko Racic.

 6             Do you take my word for that or do I need to show you that

 7     document again?  Mr. Makivic is at number 112; Mr. Gojko Racic is at

 8     number 114.  I can bring up the document if you need.

 9             I see you have a hard copy.  Did you see it?

10        A.   Is this the list?

11        Q.   Yes.  Yes.

12        A.   That's it?

13        Q.   Yes.  You see number 14, Mr. Racic, Gojko; and number 112 --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... and number 112, Mr. Makivic,

16     Svetko?

17        A.   Makinic.  Makinic?

18        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ...

19        A.   Svetko.  Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Let me go on to something else.  I need your help in

21     understanding the chronology on the next set of three or four documents.

22     And I'll show you the first one I have in chronological order, but I'm

23     not sure about the chronology.

24             Exhibit P1091 is dated the 20th of July.  It's at tab 56 of the

25     Prosecution's binder.  And you can look at this on the screen, I think.

Page 24546

 1     It's just one page.

 2             Dated the 20th of July, 1992, to the Banja Luka SJB from

 3     CSB Banja Luka.  Stojan Zupljanin's typed signature, typed name, but it

 4     appears it's signed by someone else for him, and I don't know who that

 5     was.

 6             But this dispatch says:

 7             "The security information indicates that the security situation

 8     in Banja Luka could be disturbed due to the arrest of Miroslav Dragojevic

 9     and Ljubomir Jokic.  It is necessary that you release these individuals

10     from detention and inform them to report to Banja Luka SJB tomorrow ...

11     for further operative steps, if necessary.  In other words, escort them

12     to the ... basic court... judge.  If ... they [sic] fail to report, we'll

13     consider their further stay in the Banja Luka CSB special police

14     detachment."

15             Did you know anything about this event or those two individuals,

16     Mr. Jokic and Mr. Dragojevic?

17        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, the names Miroslav Dragojevic and the other man

18     you mentioned, Ljubomir Jokic, they don't ring a bell.

19        Q.   And do you recall hearing anything about this incident where

20     Chief Zupljanin directed the SJB Banja Luka to release these two men who

21     had been detained?  Did you know about that?

22        A.   Dragojevic and Jokic, well, there seems to be an event far in the

23     back of my mind.  As for what you say that he instructed them to release

24     the men, well, under the law, irrespective of who is involved and what

25     the event is, they can only keep people in custody for three days.

Page 24547

 1             There's a further instruction which says that they should brought

 2     before an investigating magistrate who was to decide whether their

 3     custody ought to be extended or whether they should be released.  It

 4     doesn't say here that they should be released immediately.

 5             As for the events in question, I seem to remember that one event

 6     included trying to set free some army members from jail.  I can't be

 7     certain.  I seem to have seen -- I -- it seems that I had seen that in

 8     some documents.  I believe they wanted to have them released and

 9     threatened with force.

10             In any case, Chief Zupljanin did not sign this.  In my view,

11     these people were to be taken before an investigative magistrate at the

12     basic court, and it was up to him to undertake further measures, such as

13     extended custody.

14        Q.   Okay.  But looking at this document, you don't know whether

15     they'd been in detention for 12 hours or two days or three days; right?

16     You can't tell by looking at this when they were originally detained.

17        A.   I really can't say.

18        Q.   Now you still have that list of detachment members,

19     Exhibit P1092.  I would ask to you look at --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... 45 and 54, and you'll see

22     the names of Mr. Jokic and Mr. Dragojevic.  Correct?

23        A.   Yes.  They are on the list.

24        Q.   Now turn, if you will with me, to Exhibit P584.  This is

25     tab number 57.  This will be up on the screen for you in a moment,

Page 24548

 1     Witness.

 2             This document is dated the 21st of July, to Banja Luka CSB and to

 3     the MUP, from Zoran Josic, chief of department.  What department was he

 4     the chief of; do you know?

 5        A.   He was the chief of the general crime department, as far as I

 6     recall.  I stand to be corrected, of course.

 7        Q.   And in this document he's reporting about some armed men who came

 8     to a house in Banja Luka and carried out an attack, shooting at one

 9     person as he was running away.  And that after that event, on the night

10     of the 20th of July, neighbours found an identity card of a certain

11     person who apparently was a member of the special police detachment.

12             And the chief is reporting that the criminal report was filed

13     against that Boskan, the person whose identity card was found,

14     Miroslav Dragojevic, and Ljubomir Jokic, the two individuals we were

15     looking at in the previous document, and another Dragojevic.

16             Now, let me take you to the next document in this related series.

17     It's tab 58, Exhibit P585.  This is also the 21st of July, from

18     Mr. Josic, to the chief of CSB and to the Serbian MUP for information,

19     indicating that a criminal report had been filed against

20     Miroslav Dragojevic, Ljubomir Jokic, and those other two I named earlier.

21             Near the bottom of your page --

22             MR. HANNIS:  I guess we need to go to page 2 in the B/C/S and

23     page 2 in the English.

24        Q.   -- the chief is saying:  As we informed you, these men were

25     arrested, I guess, on the 19th, and detention for three days was set up

Page 24549

 1     against them.

 2             Do you see that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.  And lastly, related to this, let me show you tab 59,

 5     Exhibit P586, and I'll give you a hard copy of this document.

 6             This is another newspaper article from Glas.  This one's dated

 7     the 23rd of July, 1992.  The heading is: Who decides on releases?

 8             And you'll see on the left column, the second paragraph, right

 9     above the box, about honest boys.  It says:  It all began when

10     Ljubomir Jokic and Miroslav Dragojevic, members of a special operations

11     unit, were stopped at a check-point and their car was confiscated from

12     them.  They were both immediately arrested.

13             Reading that now, does that refresh your memory a little bit

14     about this event and these individuals?

15        A.   Let's say I remember.

16        Q.   Let's go to page 2 in the English.  The story goes on, and it

17     talks about some comment by Ljuban Ecim.  It says that on the initiative

18     of Predrag Kojic, the commander of the unit to which Dragojevic and Jokic

19     had belonged in the special operations unit, wanted an explanation about

20     why those two had been arrested and why they hadn't been informed.  The

21     story goes on to report that the command appealed to Mr. Radic and

22     Mr. Brdjanin and Dr. Vukic to insist on the release of those men but

23     Chief Tutus refused the request.  And it reports that after that

24     Mr. Zupljanin sent a dispatch -- well, it says Zupljanin and Djuro Bulic

25     wrote and sent a dispatch to the police station asking for the men to be

Page 24550

 1     released.  But apparently when Tutus heard about that, he came, had a

 2     discussion with Mr. Kojic, refused to honour that direction or request

 3     from Mr. Zupljanin, and basically throwing Mr. Kojic out of his office.

 4             So then members of the special unit went to the prison and

 5     forcibly released their comrades.

 6             Does that refresh your memory about what happened?

 7        A.   Well, I said that, yes, I do remember it, but it's in a haze.

 8             The two accused were put in detention pursuant to the decision of

 9     the investigative magistrate, and their detention was extended.  And if

10     we read this against that dispatch, that Mr. Zupljanin did not sign the

11     order to -- for them to be taken to the investigative judge to extend

12     their detention, then, clearly, if their detention is not extended and if

13     they are brought to the interview on the following day or whenever, that

14     makes me conclude that the investigative magistrate did extend their

15     detention.  And they were taken to the Tunjice facility, detention

16     facility.

17        Q.   I don't know if you see at the end of the article, Mr. -- oh, I'm

18     sorry, let me ask you this question:

19             Did you know who Mr. Kojic was, Predrag Kojic?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And one more question related to the special unit before I move

22     on to another topic.

23             Exhibit P1096.  It's tab 77.

24             MR. HANNIS:  If we could look at page 2 of both the English and

25     the B/C/S.

Page 24551

 1        Q.   This is a document dated the 31st of December, 1992, to the

 2     police brigade command, apparently, from Mr. Zupljanin, or at least his

 3     typed signature.

 4             It's an order appointing Ljuban Ecim as commander of the

 5     1st Battalion and Zdravko Samardzija as assistant battalion commander and

 6     Nenad Kajkut as commander of the 1st Company in the 1st Battalion.

 7             Do you know anything about this?  Why would Mr. Zupljanin, as

 8     chief of the CSB, be ordering the appointment of these individuals?  Is

 9     the police brigade a police unit or a military unit; do you know?

10        A.   I told you, Mr. Prosecutor, all that I know about the specials.

11             I see this order in front of me.  It's an order on appointment.

12     But I haven't seen it before.

13        Q.   I'm assuming, because there's an order to make Mr. Ecim a

14     commander, that Mr. Zupljanin didn't have any problems with Mr. Ecim's

15     conduct during the earlier part of the year, 1992, or he wouldn't be

16     putting him in such a position; would you agree with that?

17        A.   Well, believe me, I don't know.  I wouldn't necessarily agree

18     with you, because Ljuban Ecim worked for national security.  And I see

19     here the name of Zdravko Samardzija.  I've already stated that I knew

20     them.  I am not inclined to agree with your assertion.  That's my

21     opinion, anyway.

22        Q.   So you mean even if Mr. Ecim had been involved in inappropriate

23     conduct, or even criminal conduct, it wouldn't matter to Mr. Zupljanin,

24     in terms of appointing him to a position as the commander of the police

25     brigade?

Page 24552

 1        A.   Well, you know, it's not for me to decide about the acts of

 2     certain people, whether they were police officers, military people,

 3     specials, whatever, any acts of theirs that are not in keeping with the

 4     laws and regulations.

 5             So I don't want to speculate whether anybody was promoted due to

 6     any feats of theirs, whatever they were.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Related to that, we looked at the early April events in

 8     Banja Luka where the SOS had set up barricades around town.  Isn't that

 9     unlawful or illegal, in violation of some criminal law or traffic and

10     safety law or municipal ordinance, to block the roads?

11        A.   Yes.  But --

12        Q.   No, that's okay.  I just needed the yes.  Let me ask you a

13     follow-up question.

14             So why didn't the police arrest those people who set up the

15     barricades and take the barricades down, instead of letting them

16     negotiate with the mayor and the politicians about whatever demands they

17     had about the army and the police?

18        A.   Well, you see, Mr. Prosecutor, yesterday and the day before, and

19     today too, I said during my testimony that the security situation in the

20     city of Banja Luka was very complex.  To avoid repeating myself, this was

21     about large numbers of people in uniform, wearing various insignia, with

22     long-barrelled weapons, driving stolen vehicles, vehicles that were

23     painted over, and so on.

24             The police were not trained for countering individuals or

25     organised groups with weapons, whether they were armed groups of the

Page 24553

 1     Territorial Defence or reserve forces or any other units.  The police

 2     could not act, because they were facing warriors, if I may call them

 3     that.  And when I say "warriors," I mean people who were trained to use

 4     weapons or had already seen combat.  Especially when, after a day or two,

 5     I don't know, or maybe a couple of hours later, it was said that

 6     political agreements had been reached with, if I remember correctly, the

 7     representatives of the SOS and the politicians and the military in town

 8     hall.  And for removing them, in my opinion, since we're talking about

 9     armed individuals and groups, it's the military police who had to do it,

10     because they were military conscripts.

11        Q.   So did the civilian police in Banja Luka contact the JNA and/or

12     the TO military police to inform them about their members who were acting

13     in concert with these SOS, Serbian Defence Forces, in erecting and

14     maintaining these barricades?

15             Did you try to get the army to do something about these people?

16        A.   I don't know, believe me.  Maybe ...

17        Q.   Go ahead.

18        A.   ... the military police should have acted upon a report received

19     from a citizen or an institution, et cetera.  That's for sure, but I

20     don't know if they did.  And I don't know if -- because I remember the

21     event.  Because I think I was at work on that day and on the day after

22     the event.  There was a report which didn't originate from us.  I think

23     it went from the centre chief to the services in charge.

24        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I next, now, want to move to some

25     communications documents.

Page 24554

 1             If we could look at -- and I guess I should go into private

 2     session, Your Honour, for this next series of questions.  Sorry.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE HALL:  So we adjourn, to resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19             And the blinds would be lowered to escort the witness out after

20     we would have left.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day

24                           of September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.