Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24694

 1                           Monday, 10 October 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances today,

11     please.

12             MR. HANNIS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Prosecution,

13     I'm Tom Hannis with Joanna Korner and our Case Manager

14     Sebastiaan van Hooydonk.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

16     Slobodan Cvijetic, and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery, appearing for Stanisic

17     Defence this morning.  Thank you.

18             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

19     Miroslav Cuskic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

21             We have been alerted that the Office of the Prosecution has a

22     number of matters to raise before the witness is brought in.

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's right.  I'm here to deal with

24     the administrative matters this morning.

25             Your Honours, the first of them is this.  We received, I believe,

Page 24695

 1     last week, a Scheduling Order that said that the case of Rasic would be

 2     listed for the whole of January effectively and therefore because again

 3     of the problem with Your Honours being on a number of different cases, we

 4     would not be sitting for the whole of January.

 5             We respectfully suggest that it would be more logical and more

 6     sensible if we were to conclude the evidence in this case which we

 7     believe, and I've spoken certainly to Mr. Krgovic this morning, would be

 8     concluded in January.  Indeed, I understand from Mr. Krgovic that he

 9     believes that his evidence will be concluded in December, at the

10     beginning of December, which would enable us to call, if allowed, the

11     rebuttal evidence that we have suggested in respect of the Stanisic case

12     which is very limited, as Your Honours will have seen, or fairly limited

13     at the moment.  We're still doing one other investigation.

14             So that the -- if we finish the evidence, there would then in any

15     event be a gap whilst we deal with final briefs, and we would be hoping

16     that Your Honours, and I believe this would be a joint application, would

17     be allowing us six weeks between the conclusion of evidence and the

18     filing of the briefs to deal with the Rasic case.

19             So, Your Honour, I raise that.  I raised it with -- by e-mail

20     with both counsel for the Defence, and I'm not sure what their view is

21     about this.  The response I had from counsel for Stanisic was it depended

22     really on how much rebuttal evidence we wanted to call.

23             But, Your Honour, that's the first submission that we make, that

24     we should conclude all the evidence and obviously any witnesses

25     Your Honours want to call or decide to call in January, rather than the

Page 24696

 1     case being adjourned for the whole month.

 2             I don't know if Your Honours want to hear from either of the

 3     Defence before I move onto the next matters.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Does either Defence counsel have a view on this?

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, Your Honours, I believe it does depend on

 6     whether -- and whether the -- how much rebuttal evidence will be -- the

 7     Office of the Prosecutor seek to introduce, and what would be -- would

 8     that be -- would they receive the leave from the Trial Chamber to do so.

 9             That's one question.

10             The second question is, if the -- if the Trial Chamber intends to

11     call any witnesses.

12             If that is the case, then I think it makes a lot of sense that we

13     are adjourned over the -- over January so we can -- we can prepare for

14     that and for these witnesses and for the rebuttal witnesses and then

15     continue in February.

16             That is my opinion.

17             Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic.

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what Mr. Zecevic has

20     just said is basically the position of our Defence as well.  Depending on

21     how many witnesses will be called on rebuttal, and, of course, we still

22     have to complete our case and then the Prosecution will reconsider if

23     they need any rebuttal witnesses in respect of our Defence.  I do agree

24     that, as Mr. Zecevic said, if there are rebuttal witnesses and Court

25     witnesses called, we should best adhere to the schedule which has already

Page 24697

 1     been adopted and continue with our presentation of evidence.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, there are a number of -- I accept there

 3     are a number of imponderables.  May I say the reason I'm raising it is,

 4     one, because of the logicality of going on with our case, but secondly,

 5     because it does the affect the professional futures of some of the

 6     members of the Prosecution team.  There are other cases on which they are

 7     due to work and the longer this one is stretched out, the more difficult

 8     it becomes for them.  Your Honour, that is not me but for other members

 9     of the team.

10             Your Honours, I raised it.  I appreciate it is not something that

11     can be decided now but so that the Your Honours can have a look at the

12     pros and cons of carrying on with this case rather than interposing

13     Rasic, not to mention whatever may happen in Haradinaj as well.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Well, counsel would appreciate, of course, that

15     the -- the decision resulting in the Scheduling Order that was published

16     would not have been taken casually and the difficulty in terms of

17     scheduling Rasic has been patent since July.  But the -- we -- we have

18     the views which have been articulated this morning, and the -- Senior

19     Legal Officers in the respective cases would, I suppose, be invited to

20     look at it and the Judges involved may have a second look at it and

21     return to -- and further consider this matter.  And more than that I

22     couldn't say at this point.

23             Thank you.

24             MS. KORNER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  That's the first

25     administrative matter.  Your Honours, the next, can I come to, relates to

Page 24698

 1     the Zupljanin witnesses and their alleged refusal to speak to the Office

 2     of the Prosecutor.

 3             Your Honour, on the 6th of July of this year, the -- His Honour

 4     Judge Harhoff asked about the question of witnesses being -- the

 5     Zupljanin witnesses speaking to the Prosecution.  We had made a request

 6     to speak to all of them, including the 92 bis.  And Mr. Krgovic announced

 7     that:  "... Your Honour, there is no change in this position."  It says

 8     "nor," I think it says "nor our witness" but that I believe must be not

 9     one witness is willing to meet with the Prosecution.  And Judge Harhoff

10     asked -- Mr. Hannis was dealing with it, and asked if that was right, and

11     Judge Harhoff said:

12             "My understanding from Mr. Krgovic's answer was that none of the

13     witnesses to be called by Zupljanin are willing -- is that correct

14     Mr. Krgovic?"

15             "You are correct," said Mr. Krgovic.

16             Your Honours, it is quite plain from the last two witnesses, we

17     would submit, that the witnesses were not asked.  I'm not saying that

18     Mr. Krgovic was deliberately misleading the Court.  I am, however,

19     suggesting that if he isn't, he must have been misled by his

20     investigators.  Your Honours it was our intention not to interview the

21     witnesses just before they gave evidence.  Your Honours will recall that

22     we'd strongly disapproved of this happening when the Defence saw the

23     witnesses called for the Prosecution because we felt that it was undue

24     pressure and, indeed, effectively what the Defence were doing was just

25     proofing what were really their witnesses but being called by us.

Page 24699

 1             We wanted to interview, and still do, witnesses away from the

 2     court, those that are left.  Your Honours, we've seen their response that

 3     was given to Mr. Hannis about the coming of the -- the witness who is

 4     coming today.  However, we would now like Your Honours to order that we

 5     receive not later than seven days from today in writing from the

 6     witnesses, not from an investigator, the fact that they have been asked

 7     whether they're prepared to speak to the Prosecution and have declined to

 8     do so.

 9             Your Honours, we think in light of what has happened, that is

10     only fair.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Before I call on Mr. Krgovic for a response, may I

12     ask whether there is precedent for this course that you propose?

13             MS. KORNER:  What, that -- they be -- that an order be made like

14     this?

15             JUDGE HALL:  For the witnesses themselves to -- for the Court to

16     order that the witnesses produce this -- the witnesses themselves state

17     this in writing and file it with the Court.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I honestly don't know.  I have to say

19     I don't recall this happening before, where we have been informed that

20     witnesses will not or do not want to speak to us and it turns out that's

21     not right.  I'm not aware of that happening before, or if anybody is.

22     But Your Honours have power to make whatever orders you think proper in

23     the circumstances.  And we would suggest in the circumstances of what has

24     happened here, that's a proper order.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Why I asked about precedent, apart from the -- what

Page 24700

 1     Judges -- what -- particularly in the common law is always criticised for

 2     being reluctant to do anything for the first time, is that it struck me

 3     as being a bit heavy-handed and I just wondered whether -- but that's the

 4     first impression.

 5             Let me hear from Mr. --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the alternative, and we didn't do

 7     that, of course, is we could have rung up each of the witnesses ourselves

 8     and asked them.  And we decided not to do so because we didn't want any

 9     accusations that in some way we were attempting to interfere with the

10     witnesses.  In hindsight, we should have probably done that because we're

11     perfectly entitled to that.  There is no property in a witness.  And if

12     Your Honours prefer, we personally will ask for the all the contact

13     details and ourselves speak to the witnesses.

14             And, Your Honour, I'm very helpfully told by Mr. Hannis there is

15     in fact a -- a decision on this point which is the Mrksic case, 1st of

16     September, 2006, decision re the Prosecution motion to interview Defence

17     witnesses.  Whether it is right on point, I don't know.  And I see

18     Mr. Hannis is -- but there's some authority that has dealt with that.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Anyway, Mr. Krgovic.

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, quite apart from what

21     Ms. Korner just said, when I said that I had a good idea of how I should

22     overcome the problem, I gave an order to my investigators to take

23     statements from the coming witnesses on this issue and to get back to me

24     as soon as possible, and I did tell Ms. Korner that I would be giving her

25     the responses from witnesses as soon as I have them.  To dispel any

Page 24701

 1     suspicions or uncertainties, I've given such an order to my investigators

 2     irrespective of any orders that the Trial Chamber may issue.

 3             Your Honours, this isn't the first time that a misunderstanding

 4     arises surrounding the availability of witnesses.  We did not complain

 5     with the Prosecution where we received information about Prosecution

 6     witnesses not being willing to talk to us, whereas, once they appeared

 7     here as witnesses, they would say that they thought that they weren't

 8     entitled to meet with the Defence.  It happened on a number of occasions

 9     and, of course, it may be just down to simply the misunderstanding of

10     witnesses not understanding the difference between just speaking and

11     interviewing a witness.  I did speak to one of these witnesses after

12     their testimony, and this is precisely what emerged to be the problem.

13             I will, as Ms. Korner suggested, I will take written statements

14     from witnesses on these issues and get back to Ms. Korner on this.

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, our complaint is that according to the

16     witness on Friday he was never actually asked.  That's the -- whether --

17     I accept entirely that some of the witnesses that the Defence asked to

18     see originally said no, they wouldn't, but it turned out that was because

19     they believed they weren't supposed to speak to the Defence.

20             Your Honours, what our complaint is and why we are making this

21     application is because it appears that, in fact, the first two witnesses

22     had neither actually been asked by the investigators.  So that's the

23     reason.

24             But if Mr. Krgovic says they're all being asked to make

25     statements now that's -- but we would ask that we get it well in advance

Page 24702

 1     because if any of them are willing to talk to us who are coming at a

 2     later stage, then we would want to interview them well in advance.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, did we put a deadline to that on a

 4     Wednesday, that Mr. Krgovic would inform us by -- wasn't it Wednesday?

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We gave Mr. Krgovic a delay to let us know by

 7     Wednesday.  So -- and now I understand --

 8             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated] ... in respect of the

 9     next the witness.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, no, no, the next [overlapping speakers] --

11             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The next witness for -- to give us the answer for

13     Friday end of business and the other ones for Wednesday.

14             And now I understand, unless I'm wrong, that what you're asking

15     for and what Mr. Krgovic is offering, if I may say, is basically the same

16     thing.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I think, Your Honours, the difference was that

18     it was just for Mr. Krgovic to inform.  I'm asking for written

19     confirmation.  That's the difference.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Wasn't that what you were offering, Mr. Krgovic?

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will let the

22     Trial Chamber know by Wednesday if any of the witnesses are willing to

23     speak with the Prosecution.  But irrespective of that, I will take

24     statements on this issue from the coming witnesses and these will need to

25     be translated and, of course, it will take some time.  But I will, of

Page 24703

 1     course, meet the deadline set by which I will let the Trial Chamber know

 2     if any of the witnesses are willing to speak with the Prosecution and

 3     under what terms.

 4             At any rate, irrespective of the Chamber's decision, I wish to

 5     take written statements from witnesses which will then have to be

 6     translated to back up what I will say on Wednesday.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So by Wednesday, we will know.  And written

 8     statements of the witnesses will follow.  And -- and the -- the delay --

 9     or the deadline proposed by the Prosecution seven weeks [sic] before the

10     witness appears in court for the statements, would that be okay?

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  The witness who

12     is due to appear after the next one, who is already here, will give us

13     the statement by Wednesday.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, it said seven weeks.  I'm not sure

16     that's -- I said seven days from today but --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Of course, seven days.

18             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, all we're concerned about is that,

19     particularly of some of the major witnesses, we don't want to be told we

20     have to see them here because we're not prepared to do that at all.

21     We -- as I said, we consider that an oppressive and unhelpful way of

22     proceeding.

23             Your Honours, can I move then --

24             JUDGE HALL:  Before we leave this, may I only add this.  Having

25     regard to what have you said this morning, Ms. Korner, about the apparent

Page 24704

 1     misunderstanding of what was certainly canvassed on Friday, the -- may I

 2     suggest to Mr. Krgovic that in the instructions that he gives to his

 3     investigators, the -- what is being asked of the witnesses is clearly

 4     phrased so that there isn't this apparent misunderstanding, which,

 5     according to what you told us on Friday, has occurred in the past.

 6             Yes, Ms. Korner.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the third matter relates to our

 8     response to the Defence's application to change the mode of testimony of

 9     Witness SZ-012.   Your Honours issued an oral ruling on Friday, which

10     appeared to criticise the Prosecution for not putting in the transcript.

11     But, Your Honours, I think there's some misunderstanding about this.

12             Our response to the Defence's application to change the mode of

13     testimony was we don't object, provided the whole of the transcript and

14     the associated exhibits go in.  And I'm assuming the Defence, in order to

15     change the mode of testimony, must have put in the transcript.  So I'm

16     not clear how we should be criticised for not putting it in, if I may say

17     so.  So -- Your Honours, there is -- it's not our application.  It's the

18     Defence's, and we're simply saying if you want it in, we agree only on

19     the basis of all it goes in.  And I'm assuming and I believe that's right

20     that Mr. Krgovic did attach the whole of the Brdjanin transcript.  Where

21     if he didn't that's his fault not ours.  He's the one making the

22     application.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Well, criticism was not in the mind of the Chamber

24     when it issued the oral ruling.  It was seeking the assistance, really,

25     of the Prosecution in that the -- Mr. Krgovic, having indicated which

Page 24705

 1     portions of the transcript -- on which portions of the transcript he was

 2     relying, we -- were inviting the Prosecution to be more helpful in terms

 3     of identifying the portions of which they were relying.  And this is not

 4     the first time that this has happened.

 5             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, sorry.  We're saying the whole

 6     thing.  And my understanding is how could -- he couldn't have possibly

 7     have put in a partial transcript.  Well, Your Honours, in that case

 8     that's the Defence's fault.  There it is.  Because it is their

 9     application, they should put -- if we say this is it, they are to respond

10     if they agree or not.  And if they agree, then they can put in the whole

11     transcript.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Korner, if I'm not totally wrong, the

13     Prosecution did exactly the same with a Prosecution witness, I think it

14     was Todorovic but I'm not totally sure about that.

15             MS. KORNER:  There was -- yes, Your Honours.  There was a --

16     there was a difference there in that there wasn't a question -- that was

17     a dead witness.  I mean, so -- and it was days and days of transcript.

18     This is one day.  But Your Honours, it's not our application --

19     [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, if you -- if --

21             MS. KORNER:  We quite happy for this witness to stagger off to

22     Sarajevo and be properly examined and cross-examined.  We're trying to

23     help.  If the Defence agree, then -- to this then they can put in the

24     whole transcript.

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree.  However, in

Page 24706

 1     my view, the problem has arisen with the other part of the order.  We are

 2     in agreement with the entire transcript being admitted into evidence.

 3     The problem lies with documents.  When the Prosecution sought these

 4     documents, we don't have access to these documents from that case at all,

 5     and we are not clear on which other specific documents the Prosecution

 6     are interested in.  Only once we know that can we give our position, and

 7     we think part of the transcript was confidential.

 8             The portion we received from the Prosecution was the one that we

 9     sought admission for.  I don't know if there was some other part which

10     not disclosed to us because perhaps it took place in a closed session.

11     That was my understanding of the Trial Chamber's decision.  Namely, that

12     the Prosecution should deliver the entire transcript, save perhaps for

13     parts that are not accessible, and the documents.

14             MS. KORNER:  I don't believe that's right.  I don't believe part

15     of it is in closed session.  In any event, Your Honours, we're perfectly

16     happy to provide the documents and, if necessary, the whole transcript.

17     We will do that.

18             My objection was to the way it was phrased which seems to suggest

19     that we were in some way at fault.  It's not the first time it's happened

20     and I do take exception to that.

21             But we will -- to make things easier we will deliver up the whole

22     transcript plus the associated exhibits.  And I don't think it's right

23     that any of it was in closed session and confidential.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So the matter has been revolved.

25             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Your Honours, can I move to 2D89 for the

Page 24707

 1     999th time, the document that we keep on sending and resending for

 2     translation.  We've had the final verdict from CLSS.  They will not

 3     translate anything else.  They say the document we have is their final

 4     version.  So I now say, Your Honours, may we finally have put into

 5     e-court the best version that CLSS can produce which is that one.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Is there a response?

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I talked to

 8     Ms. Korner on a number of occasions about this situation, which is as

 9     follows.  We submitted the document for an official translation which we

10     did receive.  When with the assistance of the OTP we tried to obtain a

11     redacted improved translation from them, we were told that was the best

12     they could produce.  For all intents and purposes, the document that

13     Ms. Korner has is a new document.  Therefore, we cannot append to an

14     official document a translation of something else.

15             In our view it is not just a technical issue.  It is a matter of

16     the exhibit number.  Because we had one document and received a

17     translation for it, and the Prosecution sent the same document for

18     translation and got a different translation, so basically we have two

19     different documents now.

20             In the instant case we would have to give to the original

21     document in e-court a translation which isn't official.  And it's a

22     problem that I really don't know how to resolve.  Perhaps the simplest

23     way would be to attach the translation that Ms. Korner has, but I don't

24     think it's possible in procedural terms, because we have something that

25     is not an official translation of the document in e-court and that's my

Page 24708

 1     problem.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Well, I don't think it is a problem because over and

 3     over again we have sent documents back for revised translation or a new

 4     translation.  This is exactly what has happened.  What the Defence don't

 5     like is that CLSS say they can't obtain anything -- they can't translate

 6     anything more.

 7             So, Your Honours, I do not see there's any difficulty at all.

 8     It's the same document.  It's got a better translation because there's

 9     more of it translated than there was originally, so that is what should

10     happen.

11             I don't personally care procedurally whether we simply put in yet

12     another copy of the original with the revised translation.  But it seems

13     to me completely mad because you've got exactly the same original

14     document with one translation that doesn't contain certain words and

15     another translation that does which CLSS said they saw.

16             But one way or another, the time has come to get this revised

17     translation into evidence.

18             JUDGE HALL:  And if I may add to Ms. Korner's last comment,

19     wouldn't it be adding confusion to have these -- this series of documents

20     in court?  Shouldn't -- wouldn't the practical course be to merely look

21     at the last effort by CLSS and forget about the -- the -- what -- the

22     history.

23             MS. KORNER:  I agree, Your Honour, with respect.  And I don't

24     know what Mr. Krgovic's objection is based on because it is happening all

25     the time.  All that has to happen is that the Defence upload the new

Page 24709

 1     translation instead of the old one.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We will do that.  But we received

 3     it officially from CLSS so there's no problem.

 4             What Ms. Korner is referring to is the document that they

 5     received from CLSS upon their request, and when we attached the

 6     translation that Ms. Korner received and we send it to CLSS and said, Do

 7     this translation, they said, No, this is the official translation, the

 8     one that we produced.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the course we would probably follow is as

10     Ms. Korner has proposed, but we are not formally making a ruling on that

11     now, because it's something that we have to state carefully, both for the

12     benefit of counsel but more particularly for the assistance of the

13     Registry.  So it is something that we will probably give an oral ruling

14     about as soon as we settle on the precise language that we should use.

15             Does that cover all of the preliminary matters?

16             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I don't know whether we have to

17     waste time on this.  We have an e-mail from the Registry about a whole

18     load of documents which, I mean, I cannot see why I have to mention them

19     in open court.  They're revised -- go on for pages.  But the Registry

20     seems to think we have to make formal applications.  These are all -- I

21     can run through them, if you like.  But it's just a waste of time, as far

22     as I can see.

23             P63.3 [sic], there was a revised translation because of the

24     translation of the word -- the much vexed word -- okay.  I should say

25     60.3.  It's come out differently on the transcript.  It has been

Page 24710

 1     retranslated --

 2             JUDGE HALL:  May I suggest, Ms. Korner, that rather than, as you

 3     say, going through this now, if, as I understand you, there are a number

 4     of like documents, wouldn't the simpler course to put this in a omnibus

 5     motion and we could deal with it, wouldn't that be the most expeditious

 6     way of disposing of all of these matters?

 7             MS. KORNER:  Well, I mean, if necessary, Your Honour, but I mean,

 8     I don't understand why it can't just be done?  Why does it have to be

 9     mentioned in open court?  According to the Registry, it has to be

10     mentioned in open court.  It's just new translations or the like which

11     have been uploaded, and for the life of me, I can't see why we have to do

12     that.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE HALL:  I was relieved when Mr. Krgovic had indicated that

16     he wasn't sure how to proceed.  I was glad to learn I wasn't the only

17     one.

18             It appears that the simpler course would be, and this is to avoid

19     any error in terms of the -- if they're read out orally and then an error

20     is made in -- particularly dealing with numbers.  If the Prosecutor -- if

21     the -- if the Prosecution were to provide a notice with the numbers, and

22     presumably by doing that you would have an opportunity to check the

23     numbers, and the Chamber would then approve it and that would be

24     sufficient notice to the Registry.

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, then we'll just write a notice up with

Page 24711

 1     the various numbers.

 2             And do Your Honours want to us include 2D89 on this notice?

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Right.  Your Honours, we'll do that.

 5             Your Honours, that concludes the matters that I wanted to raise

 6     this morning.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, are we done with the housekeeping matters?

 9             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, sorry.  I said yes.

10             JUDGE HALL:  I'm sorry, I didn't get that.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, those are the matters.  I just came to

12     court to deal with exactly the housekeeping matters.  So if Your Honours

13     will allow me, I will leave now and Mr. Hannis will deal with the

14     witness.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, you may withdraw now.

16             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, just before Ms. Korner leaves.  I was

18     just -- on page 15, line 11 and 12, Your Honours just said, referring to

19     this 2D89:  "... so it is something that we will probably give an oral

20     ruling about as soon as we settle on the precise language that we should

21     use."

22             And I think we need to find out what is the precise language that

23     we should use and then the Trial Chamber should orally rule about that,

24     not that Ms. Korner put that on notice.  Because that is not the -- that

25     was not the ruling of the Trial Chamber.

Page 24712

 1             Thank you very much.

 2             MS. KORNER:  There is no language to be used.  We're saying this

 3     is a fuller translation, full stop, and therefore should be uploaded.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the problem is that there are two

 5     translations which are different coming both from the CLSS, so we have to

 6     see what is the problem there and --

 7             JUDGE HALL:  No, I'm grateful to Mr. Zecevic for the reminder.

 8     And all this means, to my mind, is that the -- we will formulate language

 9     to make clear what we are saying about this disputed document and then it

10     would be added to the list of these other documents that are of a like

11     character.

12             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, that's the reason -- Your Honours asked

13     for a list of all the documents where there have been changes for one

14     reason or another which Mr. Smith provided to us and asked us to raise

15     because the Registry had said it had to be mentioned in open court, and

16     on that, obviously, is 2D89, so that will simply be one of the other

17     documents that needs an alteration on the list.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, when I indicated earlier that we would

19     reflect on the language we should use in terms of 2D89, I didn't

20     appreciate that we were faced with -- that -- in the wake of that there

21     would be these other documents that were similarly -- had a similar

22     character.

23             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So, again, let's take the simpler course and dispose

25     of this matter, which shouldn't be unnecessarily complicated.

Page 24713

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So would the usher please escort the witness ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, Mr. Zecevic, do you have any procedural

 6     matters before we call the witness in?

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, none, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  No, Your Honours.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I trust that you can hear me in a language that

13     you understand?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, I can hear.

15             JUDGE HALL:  [Previous translation continues] ... you're very

16     welcome.

17             Would you be kind enough to read out the solemn declaration that

18     has been handed out to you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you very much, sir.  You may be seated.

22                           WITNESS:  MILOS JANKOVIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  First of all, sir, I wish to welcome you to the

25     Tribunal and thank you for coming to give your testimony today.

Page 24714

 1             May I, first of all, ask you to state your name and your date of

 2     birth.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Milos Jankovic.  I was

 4     born on the 30th of October, 1948.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  And where were you born?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born in a village that has

 7     two names.  Gornji Zabar.  And later on it was renamed into Pelagicevo.

 8     Up until 1968 it was Gornji Zabar.  It is in North-Eastern Bosnia, and

 9     the name of the municipality was Gradacac.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  And, Mr. Jankovic, may I

11     ask you of your ethnicity.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a Serb.

13             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.

14             Mr. Jankovic, tell us about your occupation in 1992.  What did

15     you do and where did you work?  Shortly, just briefly.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Earlier, and then in 1992, and then

17     throughout 1992, I worked in the public security station in Prijedor.  I

18     was head of the communications department and encryption.  That is to

19     say, communications that were at the disposal of the police in Prijedor.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Jankovic, we see that

21     you have already been testifying here in this Tribunal in the Stakic

22     case, so I need not run with you again the modes of testimony here.

23             But there is perhaps a bit of information that you would wish to

24     have, and that is the schedules that we have set out for your testimony

25     here.  You're being called as a witness by Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, who is

Page 24715

 1     sitting there, and you will be examined by his Defence counsel,

 2     Mr. Krgovic, whom I believe you have already met.

 3             Mr. Krgovic has asked for five hours to complete his

 4     examination-in-chief.  And Mr. Stanisic, whose counsel is here -- for

 5     Mr. Zecevic, has asked for three hours to complete his cross-examination

 6     of you.

 7             And finally, the Prosecution --

 8             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise for

 9     interrupting you.  I think we have sent the mail, perhaps you haven't

10     received it, but after meeting with the witness yesterday and meeting

11     with Mr. Krgovic, we reassigned the topics, questions, and the time that

12     will be needed, and in that e-mail, we reduced the time that we would

13     need down to a maximum of one session.

14             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you very much.  Thank you very much,

15     Mr. Cvijetic.  I was not aware of that.

16             So just to resume, Mr. Jankovic.  The Stanisic Defence intends to

17     cross-examine you for a maximum of an hour and a half.

18             And, finally, as I was saying, the Prosecution has asked for

19     eight hours to complete its cross-examination of you.

20             After that, there will be an opportunity for Mr. Krgovic to put

21     further questions to you in his re-direct examination.  And during your

22     testimony, the Judges may have questions to you as well.

23             All of this boils down to the fact that we anticipate that we

24     will have to have you with us for all of this week, and we hope that your

25     testimony here can be completed by Friday at the latest.

Page 24716

 1             You may recall from your earlier testimony that we run normally

 2     sessions of one hour and a half, after which the tapes have to be

 3     changed.  So we have breaks of 20 minutes every 90 minutes.

 4             Mr. Jankovic, all I have left to tell you is that you are now

 5     going to testify under oath, and this oath means that you may be

 6     prosecuted for false testimony and for perjury, if, during your testimony

 7     here, you provide false or incomplete testimony to the Court.  And I

 8     should also tell you that there is a severe penalty for providing such

 9     false or incomplete testimony.

10             Do you have any questions to the Bench before we begin your

11     examination?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, thank you for this

13     information although I was familiar with most of it.  Now, as for how

14     long I would stay here, I came here to do my best, to help as much as I

15     can, so I don't have any special circumstances that would limit my stay.

16     I will stay as long as I need to stay.  I don't want to stay for too

17     long, of course, that's natural.  But you go ahead, you put your

18     questions, and I will respond.  I will tell the truth.  And I won't make

19     any mistakes.  Of course, these events took place long time ago, so

20     perhaps I will miss this or that, but I'm here.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Very well.  And we are grateful for your

22     presence.

23             Mr. Jankovic, if at any point you have anything that you wish to

24     raise with the Chamber or the parties, then please do not hesitate to

25     just come forward.

Page 24717

 1             Mr. Krgovic, the floor is yours.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Krgovic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jankovic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, since the two of us speak the same language and we

 7     fully understand each other, I would kindly ask you to make a brief pause

 8     before answering my questions so that the interpreters can interpret both

 9     my question and your answer.

10        A.   Very well.  I'll do my best.

11        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, tell me, please, what schooling do you have?

12        A.   Well, after elementary school, I went to secondary school for

13     mechanical technicians for four years, than took me up to 1968, following

14     which I went to the army.  I graduated there from the school for reserve

15     officers, and I reached the rank of artillery captain in the JNA.

16             After this military school, which lasted for one year, in 1969, I

17     enrolled into the school of electrical engineering, which I concluded in

18     1975, becoming the engineer for electrical -- electronics.  And following

19     that, I started working.

20        Q.   We need to correct something.  You graduated from the school of

21     electrical engineering.  Which department?

22        A.   Electronics and telecommunications.  That's how it was called at

23     the time.

24        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, tell us, please, when did you start working in

25     police?

Page 24718

 1        A.   Well, I started working in 1975 to 1980, I worked in private

 2     sector, in a factory.  And then in August of 1980, I came to Prijedor,

 3     and I remained there until I retired in 2008, somewhere in June.  On the

 4     30th of June, 2008.  I worked in police force there.

 5             So from August of 1980 until June of 2008, I worked continuously

 6     in police.  Performing always the same tasks and duties.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us the title that you had, the exact position that

 8     you had from when you started until you retired.

 9        A.   What do you mean by position?

10        Q.   Well, what was your job?

11        A.   Well, each police station has its own department for transfer of

12     information, written and verbal, for the needs of the police, as well as

13     encryption of that information.  I headed that department.  That is to

14     say, that I was responsible for organising work and everything else that

15     needed to be done.  I had to ensure that the system worked well.  I was

16     responsible for that, and I was responsible for everything that had to do

17     with that system of communications.

18             My superior was chief of the police station.  So the person that

19     headed the police station was my superior.  And I was responsible to him.

20             I also had specialist responsibilities within my line of work, in

21     the MUP, because there were organisational units at the centre, and the

22     organisation changed from year to year.  And sometimes my superior within

23     the specialist line of work was in Sarajevo, and sometimes he was in

24     Banja Luka, and I was responsible to him regarding the technical aspects

25     of my work.

Page 24719

 1        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, in answer to His Honour Judge Harhoff's question,

 2     you said that you testified in other cases before this Tribunal.  Can you

 3     tell us which cases were these.

 4        A.   In the Prcac case.  There were others in -- accused in that case

 5     but I was called by the Prcac Defence team.  It was in 2001, unless I'm

 6     mistaken.

 7             And the second time I testified was in Dr. Stakic's case, which

 8     was sometime in autumn of 2003, I believe.  Yes.  The first time round

 9     was in the spring, in the month of May of 2001; and this was in winter

10     time.  It was snowing.

11        Q.   After having testified in these two cases, were you interviewed

12     by the Prosecutor?

13        A.   Yes, much later.  I think it was in autumn -- I think it was the

14     month of November of 2007.  I was interviewed in Banja Luka for a

15     prolonged period of time.  There was a lady and a gentleman there.  And I

16     think it lasted for eight hours, the interview.

17        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, can you tell us on how many occasions did you meet

18     with representatives of Mr. Zupljanin's Defence.  When was your first

19     contact?

20        A.   I think it was the summer before last, or late autumn.  I know

21     Mr. Vukovic [as interpreted] from our student days.  He invited me for a

22     cup of coffee and asked me if I'd be prepared to testify.  I said that I

23     would, although I said that everything that I had to say I had already

24     told the Prosecution and in my testimonies before the Tribunal.

25             So I expressed my willingness and we didn't discuss it further.

Page 24720

 1     That was our first encounter.

 2             The second time was in late December or early January, when you

 3     came.  It wasn't a long conversation, and you asked me roughly what it

 4     was that I would have to say.  So I briefly summarised my earlier

 5     testimonies.  And you said that there was a possibility that I might be

 6     called to appear.  You asked me if I agreed to it, and I said that I

 7     would.  I said that I would be prepared to come, but I also said that

 8     whatever I had to say, I had already told to the representatives of the

 9     Prosecution.  I told them everything I knew.  And that was that.

10             The next time you called me was sometime during the summer.  When

11     was it?  It was summer.  And it was a brief conversation, where I was

12     told that I would be called to appear shortly before August or, if that

13     would fall through, then it would be sometime in October.  I wanted to

14     know precisely when.  I live on my own and I often go to Prijedor,

15     Banja Luka, to Posavina, to visit my family.  I wanted to know when this

16     would be so that I would be at home.  And there was no difficulty there.

17     So you called me - when was it? - just now.  I was prepared to come and I

18     came.

19             So, in my view, we met three times, I think.  It was that winter,

20     back then, and now.

21        Q.   Did Mr. Vukelic ask you once you were told and you agreed to be a

22     witness for the Zupljanin Defence, did he ask you if you wanted to talk

23     to the Prosecution?

24        A.   Yes, he did.  He called me on the phone, late July or August,

25     anyway it was summer.  Somebody called me, I don't recall who it was, who

Page 24721

 1     said that -- who asked me whether I would be willing to talk to the

 2     Prosecution.  I believed that I had nothing to tell the Prosecution and I

 3     said no.

 4             Why?  Well, because for eight hours I kept saying everything I

 5     knew and I told them everything I had to say, so why would they be

 6     speaking to me again?  Even before, when I testified in the courtroom I

 7     said everything I knew.  That would amount to repetition.  I didn't find

 8     it logical, so I didn't dare to.  I said no.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please slow down, because what you just said

10     has not been adequately interpreted.

11             So who was it?  Who called you on the phone?

12        A.   Vukelic did.  In the second half of summer.  I don't remember the

13     time.  He asked me, I don't recall his exact words, that there was a need

14     or that somebody wanted me to speak to the Prosecution and would I be

15     prepared to speak to them again.

16        Q.   And what was your answer?

17        A.   Well, I gave it a bit of thought, and I recall that back in 2007,

18     as I just said, I gave a very extensive interview to OTP representatives.

19     And they're all Prosecutors to me.  I don't make a distinction.

20        Q.   So what did you tell Mr. Vukelic?

21        A.   Well, I told him that I had told them everything I had to say,

22     that I would merely repeating myself, and I wouldn't want to speak to

23     them.

24        Q.   Your answer hasn't been recorded.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 24722

 1             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you please slow down.

 3        A.   Yes, I will.  My apologies to the interpreters.

 4        Q.   Last Friday, when we met here, did I ask you if you had changed

 5     your position and would agree to meet with the Prosecution?

 6        A.   Yes.  I told you that my position was still the same.

 7        Q.   Sir, thank you.  This bit is clear.

 8             Did you meet with me and somebody else from the Defence team

 9     yesterday?

10        A.   Yes.  There was this other gentleman with you.  What's his name?

11     This one who I got to know.  Your colleague.

12        Q.   No, I'm referring to Mr. Cvijetic.

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   I meant the meeting that we had yesterday afternoon with me and

15     Mr. Cvijetic.

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   I wanted to clear that up before we proceed.

18             Mr. Jankovic, I asked you about your employment.  Was anyone else

19     from your family employed in the Prijedor public security station in 1991

20     and before?

21        A.   Yes.  I had a wife and two children.  My wife worked in the very

22     same station, and she was charged with white-collar crime.  She had a

23     degree in law and had been dealing with white-collar crime all her

24     professional life.

25        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, tell us, when did you stop working in Prijedor and

Page 24723

 1     start working in Banja Luka; and what were your duties at that point?

 2        A.   You didn't ask me about that, and it may be important, that in

 3     March of 1994, because I had a surgery and was on sick-leave, I was away

 4     from work in Prijedor, though I continued working from home.  And it was

 5     on the 1st of November, 2001, that I transferred from Prijedor to

 6     Banja Luka and stayed there until my retirement.

 7        Q.   And what were the duties you were charged with?

 8        A.   It was only a portion of duties related to communications, i.e.,

 9     maintenance of equipment and installation of new equipment.  It was

10     mostly this strictly technical part, and I was the head of the section

11     dealing with these issues.

12        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, we're talking about 1991 -- or, rather, we're

13     talking about 1992.  Can you tell us what was - briefly - your line of

14     duty and the tasks you were charged -- charged with in Prijedor.

15        A.   Was it 1992 or ...

16        Q.   1992, yes.

17        A.   Well, yes, it was the same sort of duties I had been charged with

18     before 1992.  The communications section that I was the head of had two

19     sets of duties.  One was communication operators.  What did they do?

20     They received written dispatches, typed them up on those machines, and

21     sent them onto the addressees.  They would, likewise receive any incoming

22     dispatches.  The dispatches could have been of open type or encrypted.

23     Coded, in other words.  That was what they did.  Those that were outgoing

24     were being coded and those that were incoming were being decoded and sent

25     to those who they were intended for.  This is called the exploitation of

Page 24724

 1     the communications system.

 2             And you've got three shifts of workers charged with these duties.

 3     In other words, there's always someone doing the job.

 4             The second set of duties had to do with the installation and

 5     repairs of all the equipment ranging from telephony to telegraphy,

 6     teleprinters, various other machines.  In other words, equipment

 7     transmitting written information.  Then radio sets of ultra short waves,

 8     et cetera.  All sorts of ranges, including the portable radio sets that

 9     police officers would have on them.

10             My duty was to be present there and take care that all these

11     duties are performed as smoothly as possible, to be of assistance and to

12     supervise everything.  If any specific tasks were given to us, I'd be

13     summoned by my superior.  I would be responsible for the work of my small

14     unit.  I would report on its activities, et cetera.  Of course, it had to

15     be carried out in keeping with the rules in force.  We had weekly

16     meetings, and, where needed, daily meetings.  This was the case in 1992.

17     We had monthly reports, reports every three months, half yearly, and

18     yearly --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter didn't catch what the

20     witness said at the end.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, the interpreters didn't understand what you said at

23     the end.  But you said here - I have a correction to make - that the

24     meetings were weekly and daily meetings and then you mentioned 1992.  It

25     says that you said that this was the case in 1992, but what did you say?

Page 24725

 1        A.   Let me correct myself.  The reporting rules were the same back in

 2     1990 and in 1992.  However, the rules were not adhered to in 1992.  Thus,

 3     for instance, at times it was obligatory for us to hold morning -- the

 4     morning briefings, where we superiors would be duty-bound to report on

 5     our activities.  And then it would so happen that they would tell us that

 6     the meeting would not be held and, of course, then nobody could be

 7     informed about the results of our work.

 8             I think I've made myself quite clear now, didn't I?

 9        Q.   Yes.  I will get back to that later.  It was just something that

10     I wanted to have corrected in the transcript.

11             Mr. Jankovic, after the multi-party elections in Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina, did there come a change in the leadership structure of the

13     public security station in Prijedor; and, if so, what was it about?

14        A.   Yes.  When multi-party elections were held, elsewhere, as well as

15     in our area, parties were supposed to have a bearing on the composition

16     of the leadership structure.  Only two important issues were at stake,

17     i.e., chief of the station; and police commander.  The police commander

18     comes under the chief of the station within the hierarchy.

19             There were similar cases in our municipalities as well, but I was

20     able to see what was going on in our municipality.  Negotiations were

21     going on and on, and they simply weren't able to come to an agreement as

22     to who would occupy each post.

23             As far as I remember now, an agreement was reached among these

24     parties elsewhere and in our areas as well, that the party that was

25     victorious in the elections would be the one appointing the chief of the

Page 24726

 1     station; whereas, the party that won -- that was the runner-up, let's

 2     say, would be the one appointing the commander.  So the same was true for

 3     the local authorities.  The party that won the elections would appoint

 4     the president of the municipality, and the runner-up would appoint the

 5     chairman of the Executive Board, the one that won the votes right after

 6     the first one.  That was how Hasan Talundzic came to be our chief of the

 7     station.  Dusan Jankovic became the commander.

 8             That's how it was.

 9        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, did you retain the same post?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   Were there any alterations within the SJB?  Were people

12     transferred to other jobs as a result of the agreement between the

13     parties with regard to the functioning of the station?

14        A.   Yes, there were shifts like that.  For example, the station

15     commander was Fikret Kadiric, and now, since Dusan Jankovic assumed his

16     post, he was moved to the position of the commander of the traffic

17     police.  That's just one example.

18             I don't remember, but there were similar examples like this one.

19     It is the prerogative of a chief to move people around.  The first thing

20     they always do is that they change their secretary, as far as I know.

21        Q.   Tell me, Mr. Jankovic, before Hasan Talundzic, who had been the

22     chief of the public security station in Prijedor?

23        A.   For a brief time, it was Slobodan Stojanovic.  Sead Besic was

24     also there, but also for a relatively short period of time, and then he

25     was succeeded by Slobodan Stojanovic, and Besic went to Banja Luka.

Page 24727

 1        Q.   What was the nationality of Slobodan Stojanovic who was replaced

 2     by Hasan Talundzic?

 3        A.   He was a Serb.  I don't know how he declared himself officially,

 4     but according, and judging by his name, he must have been a Serb.

 5        Q.   What about Hasan Talundzic?

 6        A.   He was a Muslim.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see this is a time

 8     for the break.  Can we do that now?

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  And we return in 20 minutes.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, let us resume where we left off.

16             Apart from the building where the public security station of

17     Prijedor -- where the uniformed police were, were there any -- any branch

18     offices or detached offices that were not housed in the building of the

19     SJB?

20        A.   Yes, yes, there were.  There was a police station of Ljubija.

21     There was a Kozarac police section, and I think that in Omarska, there

22     used to be sometimes a section, sometimes a station.  Anyway it was in

23     Ljubija, Kozarac, and Omarska.

24        Q.   Were they part of the communications system of the SJB Prijedor?

25        A.   Yes, they were.  They had an outer short-wave radio set, a

Page 24728

 1     stationary one, located at the station.  They had a telephone line as

 2     well.  But they didn't have any teleprinter communication lines for the

 3     exchange of written information.

 4        Q.   So in addition to the Prijedor SJB, did your service maintain

 5     communications systems in some other public security stations; and did

 6     you have any ties with them?

 7        A.   Yes, we did.  According to the organisation chart, the Prijedor

 8     covered Sanski Most, the then-called Bosanski Novi, and Bosanska Dubica,

 9     as was also called like this at that time.

10        Q.   Speaking about communication, what was the relationship within

11     your centre and their respective centres?  Did you have some kind of

12     superior role over them?  How did this all function?  Can you please

13     explain the organisation.

14        A.   Concerning communications itself, we were superior to them.

15     However, when it came to organising day-to-day work, they were

16     independent from us, and they had ties with the CSB Banja Luka.

17             So from the overall aspect of the police, they were under the CSB

18     of Banja Luka.  However, in the domain of the communications, due to the

19     technical aspects of the system, they had to be connected, first, with

20     Prijedor, and via Prijedor, with Banja Luka, and further on with the MUP.

21        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, can you tell us, after the multi-party elections

22     and the appointment of the new leadership, were there any changes in the

23     way in which the station was managed, in the way how communication

24     operated, and how jobs were performed?  I'm talking about the period when

25     the new leadership came that was nominated by the winning parties.

Page 24729

 1        A.   Well, let me tell you this:  There were changes.  Technically

 2     speaking, those changes were not significant because the devices that we

 3     had continued to operate in the way they used to.  However, as one by one

 4     broke down, conditions changed.

 5             Now, as for the organisation aspect, huge changes occurred.

 6        Q.   Can you briefly explain to us what you just said?  How did it

 7     reflect on your work; and can you give us some examples?

 8        A.   For example, in the previous normal course of work, I wasn't

 9     authorised for many things within my purview, and I wasn't able to take

10     independent decisions concerning communications.  Instead, I had to

11     address my supervisor.  For example, if we're talking about a procurement

12     of a new piece of equipment, I would go to my supervisor, he would

13     explore the possibility, approve it, or disapprove it, and the work would

14     go on.

15             Now, when Hasan Talundzic came, who had no other experience with

16     the police other than when he was stopped by drink driving, it turned out

17     that he virtually had no knowledge about our work, and I didn't feel the

18     need to ask him anything, which left me with a void upwards.  I couldn't

19     cooperate with anyone.  I could only function downwards.  I could

20     cooperate only with the people who were subordinate to me.  All of a

21     sudden, this line of communication was lost.  That's just one of the

22     examples.  I can give you many more.

23             Or -- the existing question -- function was jeopardised, and a

24     new one was not put in place.

25        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, after the multi-party elections, and after the

Page 24730

 1     appointment of new executives, was there any influence from the local

 2     party vis-a-vis the managing and running of the SJB?

 3        A.   Of course.  That was the only connection.  Hasan Talundzic was

 4     appointed by the SDA.  He knew them, they were the ones who appointed

 5     them.  Supposedly he was reporting to them, given that they had appointed

 6     me.  I didn't pay too much attention to him, but it was easy to notice

 7     that if he would receive a significant dispatch, he would take this piece

 8     of paper and go across the road to the president of the municipality or

 9     whoever for consultations.  In our previous work, once the chief of

10     police received a dispatch, he either consult his co-workers or his

11     superior centre, i.e., the superior officer according to the chain of

12     command.  Now the situation was different.  And there were many similar

13     examples.

14        Q.   Can you tell us, at that time, who was the president of the

15     municipality, who was the president of the SDA in Prijedor in 1992?

16        A.   When the parties took over power, the winning party in Prijedor

17     was the SDA.  The president of the municipality was a high school

18     teacher.  I think he was called Muhamed Cehajic.  He was the professor of

19     the Serbian language.  The president of the SDA was Dr. Mirza Mujadzic.

20     That's as far as the SDA was concerned.

21             Now, so far as the SDS was concerned, Dr. Mico Kovacevic was the

22     Chairman of the Executive Board and our commander was Dusan Jankovic.

23     And, as I said, the chief was Hasan Talundzic.

24        Q.   Who was the SDS president in Prijedor in 1992?

25        A.   Now, listen, I was never a member of the party and I didn't

Page 24731

 1     follow that.  I think that Simo Miskovic was the one, but I'm not sure

 2     about that.  Whether it was somebody else I don't know.  I wasn't a

 3     member, I didn't read the papers, I didn't attend any meetings, but I

 4     think that he was in that post for a period of time during 1992.

 5        Q.   Speaking about this subject, were you a member of any other

 6     political party after the multi-party elections?

 7        A.   No, no, never.  I had been a member of the League of Communists,

 8     but one had to be because it was impossible to get a job if you were not

 9     a member.  Everybody was there.  However, after the elections, to this

10     date, I never became a member of any political party.

11        Q.   You were a member of the League of Communists until when?

12        A.   Until they disintegrated.

13        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, with the outbreak of war in Croatia and when the

14     ethnic divisions emerged in Bosnia-Herzegovina, can you tell me whether

15     all these tensions and all these situations had any impact on the overall

16     operation of the SJB in Prijedor?  I'm talking about the end of 1991 and

17     the first half of 1992.

18        A.   Well, yes.  It started immediately, from the moment when the

19     parties were formed and when they seized power, what emerged is something

20     that is called by single term tensions.  But in my view, it was a

21     terribly complicated process.  You would hear some unpleasant stories on

22     a daily basis.  So you would hear bad things coming from one nation, and

23     the other nation would hear bad things coming from the first nation,

24     et cetera.

25             So all these confrontations were piling up, and ultimately, for

Page 24732

 1     example, I myself and other two people were not directly involved in

 2     this.  There was an inspector for economic crime working together with my

 3     wife, and we were on very good terms.  All of a sudden he started

 4     avoiding me.  Yes, he would say good morning or good afternoon, but if

 5     could -- he couldn't help it, he would try to avoid having any further

 6     contact with me, of having coffee with me and things like that.

 7             So all of this was felt outside of the station as well.  One

 8     could feel that in the town itself.  Admittedly, there were people who

 9     did not react in that same way.  For example, I had a colleague from the

10     college and we maintained good relations but that was not always the

11     case.

12             Now, I can give you numerous examples of how these things that in

13     the previous period were not normal were now happening.

14        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, tell us, did there exist within the Prijedor public

15     security station members of the reserve force; and was there a reserve

16     police station?

17        A.   Yes, there was a reserve police station there, when I got there,

18     from before.  The municipality of Prijedor had 43, I believe, local

19     communes, and each of these had their own reserve police station.  And

20     this was true for the municipalities in general.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Krgovic, before you move on, could I ask the

22     witness.  Mr. Witness, you gave the example -- in your previous answer

23     you gave the example about the -- your relation with the inspector of

24     economic crime.  What was his ethnicity?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ago was a Muslim.

Page 24733

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  What name did you mention?  Ago?  Ago who?  What

 2     was his family name?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ago Sadikovic.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ago Sadikovic.  Thank you very much.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you that we were quite

 6     close.  I socialised with him more than I did with others.  We would

 7     frequently have a cup of coffee, but that was before.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And he stayed in the force until when; do you

 9     remember?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  On the 30th of April, you

11     know the story of the 30th of April, when the Serbs got in in the

12     morning, those who gained access to the SUP asked that an oath be taken,

13     as had been the case before, that they would discharge the duties of the

14     SUP, but this was required of everyone, not just the Muslims, including

15     myself.

16             So you would take an oath and place your signature in this book

17     that they had, and whoever did so was allowed to proceed to their work

18     post.  And so I did.  Those who refused to had to give back their police

19     ID and their fire-arm.  All of us had pistols at the time.  And then the

20     individual was free to go where they wished to.

21             This is how things happened on the first morning.  There were

22     Muslims who signed the oath, but there were also those who refused to do

23     so.  Over time, they somehow separated in terms of the fact that the

24     Serbs who had refused to sign the oath initially, probably because they

25     needed the salary, returned to their work post and were reinstated,

Page 24734

 1     whereas Muslims left the police force.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, I want to confine my question to

 3     this acquaintance of yours, Ago Sadikovic.

 4             Is that how Ago Sadikovic left the force, on or about the

 5     30th of April, 1992?  Was he one of them who didn't want to sign the

 6     state -- the oath?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  No, he wasn't.  He didn't

 8     state -- well, there was this other inspector whom I knew well as well.

 9     Why?  Because they worked with my wife.  They were upstairs from me, a

10     couple of offices away.  I wasn't familiar with all the people working at

11     the station, but I was familiar with them.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So just to make your answer totally clear,

13     because there is a yes and a no in the answer.

14             If I understood you well, you said he, I mean Ago, did not sign

15     or give the oath, and therefore left the force.  Is that right?  A yes or

16     a no will suffice.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is true is that Ago did not

18     sign the oath that morning, and I never saw him again, either on the day

19     or later.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, let me follow up on what His Honour Judge Delvoie

23     asked you about.

24             You said that there were Muslims who initially signed the oath

25     and then you went on to say something else.

Page 24735

 1             Can you tell us, when it comes to signing the oath, were there

 2     cases where those who initially signed the oath later on retracted it?

 3        A.   Yes.  Enes, I don't know what his name was, he worked with my

 4     wife.  He stayed on for a couple of days only.  I didn't talk to him or

 5     anyone else, so I don't know why it was that he ultimately left.

 6             And, finally, Mirsad Cahuric [phoen] was a communications

 7     officer, and I was his supervisor; also a Muslim.  He was a good worker.

 8     That was my view of him.  And a good man.  I tried to the best of my

 9     ability to make it as comfortable for him to stay in that environment as

10     possible.  He did stay on for perhaps a month or a month and a half, but

11     then he left as well.  Of his own will.  Nobody chased him away.  As far

12     as I know, he was the last Muslim to leave in that period of time.  At a

13     later date some of those returned, but he was the last Muslim to leave

14     our station.

15             I tried as best I could to help him.  There were these other

16     colleagues and I as well who helped him get food supplies, because they

17     were people who did not dare to walk about the town.  I didn't go later

18     on to see for myself how he was doing, because I know he had two

19     children, but I did send these colleagues of mine to bring him food

20     supplies and see that he is doing well.

21             So I hope I have made myself clear.

22        Q.   You said that he left a month and a half later.  What -- did he

23     leave of his own free will?  Because that's one bit that is not in the

24     transcript.

25        A.   Yes, he did leave voluntarily and never told me why.  I did speak

Page 24736

 1     to him later, but we spoke of neutral things, as it were.  I didn't want

 2     to ask him about it.  But I can tell you what my assumption is.

 3             At the time, various international organisations started

 4     transporting people in an organised fashion to elsewhere in Europe, and

 5     I'm talking about entire families.  So I suppose he felt it would be

 6     better for him to go elsewhere in Europe and get out of the area where

 7     there was a war brewing.  So he was lucky enough to have his wife and his

 8     children board one of the convoys and leave for Germany.  He, on the

 9     other hand, was taken on by the Muslims, and I know that he continued in

10     the same line of work in the police station in Travnik.  He came back

11     later.  He is now in Bosanski Novi -- he is now in Sanski Most, and I do

12     see him occasionally, when our duties permit us.

13        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, let us go back to the issue of the reserve police

14     stations.

15             What was the ethnic makeup of these reserve police stations

16     compared to the local communes that they covered?  Would the makeup

17     correspond to the ethnic composition of the local communes?

18        A.   Yes.  I had somewhat more knowledge of these issues.  Why was

19     this?  There was a programme in place of instruction and training for

20     various subjects, including communications.  That was where I came in.

21     And I would be holding these training sessions.  That's how I came to

22     know people from various stations.

23             The ethnic composition of these stations corresponded to the

24     ethnic makeup of the population inhabiting a given local commune, and

25     they had to have high moral integrity, and they had to be individuals who

Page 24737

 1     had no previous criminal record.  They were also people who were not

 2     prone to drinking.

 3        Q.   In early 1992 - and I'm talking about March and April - how many

 4     of them were there?

 5        A.   Well, let me tell you that this wasn't strictly my line of work,

 6     but in some of the meetings that I attended, I came to learn that we -

 7     and when I say "we," I mean Prijedor - had 700 individuals and

 8     450 rifles, so there was talk of the shortage of rifles.  I don't know if

 9     this can provide some sort of an approximation of these figures.  I

10     wasn't privy to any other information in that field.

11        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, tell us, did there exist a special department in

12     the public security station in Prijedor that dealt with the reserve

13     police force; and, if so, who headed the department?

14        A.   I know that there was always one work post set aside for these

15     duties.  At the time, it was Muharem Ceric who was the incumbent on that

16     post.  I know because his office was just next to mine, and I would see

17     these commanders coming to see him.

18        Q.   Can you tell us what was his ethnicity?

19        A.   Muslim.

20        Q.   Tell us, in the period between early 1992 and the outbreak of

21     conflicts in Prijedor, were there any changes in the personnel?  You

22     talked about the pre-war period, but was it also the case in this period

23     leading up to the outbreak of conflicts?  Was this principle respected?

24        A.   Well, not really.  Well, first of all, let me tell you that I

25     wasn't one of those who would be checking these people, but I did hear

Page 24738

 1     stories to the effect that Ceric was admitting criminals onto the force.

 2     When they said "criminals," perhaps they didn't mean criminals in that

 3     strict sense of the word but perhaps that they were not the best of

 4     individuals for those posts, in view of their earlier activities.  And,

 5     as I saw these criminals, I could tell by their names that they were some

 6     sort of -- well, perhaps it wasn't the case but that's what it looked

 7     like, a Muslim name and a man of suspicious past.  There were such

 8     individuals.  These were stories that I heard from those who were better

 9     placed to know these things.  As for myself, I wasn't either familiar

10     with criminals, nor did I have these lists of all these people.

11        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, can you tell us what, roughly, was the head count

12     of that particular police department, whatever it is called, in Kozarac?

13        A.   Well, 10 to 15.  I don't think there were any -- that there were

14     more than 20 or less than 10 of them at any point in time.  I know what

15     the area was under their control, and I believe that this was roughly the

16     case.

17        Q.   Are you talking about members of the reserve force there as well?

18        A.   No, no.  I'm referring to active-duty policemen only.

19        Q.   Do you know whether mobilisation was effected at any point of

20     time of the reserve force in the sense that they were issued uniforms and

21     weapons, and that these stations became active?

22        A.   Yes, that's what happened.

23        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, speaking about the events of March and April 1992,

24     were there any visits from Sarajevo by officials who came to Prijedor?

25     How often did that take place, and do you know what was discussed?

Page 24739

 1        A.   Well, yes, there were instances like that.  I know that a few

 2     days before, or better still, in the second half of April to be more

 3     precise, a few - I don't know how many because I know for -- about at

 4     least two or three -- Avdo Hebib used to come quite often from Sarajevo.

 5     I don't know exactly, but I think he was an under-secretary for public

 6     security.  In the MUP organisation, he would be person number three.  You

 7     had a minister, you had his deputy, and then the chief of public security

 8     deputy.  Now, this one was the chief of public security department.

 9             In the previous period, such a high-ranking MUP official would

10     visit Prijedor once in a few years only.  Now, this one came three times

11     within the span of ten days.  I personally had no dealings with him.  I

12     don't know what he talked about, but I do know that if I went to

13     Hasan Talundzic, my chief, to consult him, the secretary would tell me,

14     You cannot go in.  Mr. Hebib is inside.  Well, I thought to myself, he

15     was here yesterday or the day before, and that's all that I knew.  I

16     don't know what they discussed, what subjects they talked about, nothing.

17     But I did conclude that something was out of order for him to come so

18     often.

19        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, can you tell us whether, in that period, which is

20     early 1992, was there any gathering people around their ethnic

21     backgrounds?  Were there any communications between people of the same

22     ethnicity on various matters?

23        A.   Well, yes.  For example, in the past, all the agreements used to

24     reach at what we used to call the senior executive staff meetings.  We

25     would coordinate and agree on what had to be done, when it had to be

Page 24740

 1     done, et cetera.  Now these meetings were few and far apart, and even if

 2     they did happen, the topics addressed at these meetings were almost

 3     insignificant.  I also noticed that the Ago that I mentioned before, who

 4     was in the office next to my wife's, and that is three or four offices

 5     away from my office, I saw Commander Fikret Kadiric and Hasan Talundzic

 6     coming to Ago very frequently.  Even if you don't pay particular

 7     attention you just cannot help noticing it.

 8             I don't know why these people were flocking together and what

 9     they were talking about.  But I can tell that you the same practice was

10     pursued on the Serbian side, but I myself was not part of the police, so

11     I didn't have anyone who was close enough to me to do that.  I didn't

12     interfere in anyone's job, and they left me alone basically.

13        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, can you tell us do you know of any examples of

14     people being armed - I'm talking about the civilians, be it the Muslims

15     or the Serbs - in the early spring of 1992?  Do you know anything about

16     that?  Do you know that the process of arming ordinary citizens began in

17     Prijedor?

18        A.   Well, yes, it did.  You didn't have to be particularly a proper

19     sleuth in order to detect that.  First of all, let me tell you, there was

20     fighting already going on in Slavonia and I think that in Prijedor, in

21     the town square, one could buy a hand-grenade.  I don't know how it

22     costs.  I think it was 10 or 20 German marks.  So these were available

23     for purchase on the street.

24             Then gun-fire began, which wasn't the case before, and I don't

25     know who was shooting or why.  Then I heard - I don't know how I heard of

Page 24741

 1     it actually - there was Slivko Titkovic [phoen] from Kozarusa.  He was a

 2     Ukrainian and Kozarusa was a Muslim village.  He heard and he told me

 3     that in a number of restaurants there, people were getting together and

 4     rifles were being distributed.  Something of the sort.  I don't know.  I

 5     cannot say that this was reliable information.  I didn't take them to be

 6     so, but I don't also think that it was all the product of their

 7     imagination.  There was shooting for a fact.  I didn't know the extent of

 8     it, but it did exist.

 9             I once went to Kozarac in April as part of my duty, and the

10     people in Kozarac did not even try to conceal from me that they had

11     communication devices that were operative.  They were leftovers from 1984

12     Winter Olympics in Sarajevo.  Now, this Kozara section of the police had

13     these devices.  I was familiar with them, because that's my profession.

14     I asked them how did they get hold of this, and they said, Chief Hasan

15     had brought it from Sarajevo.  Never before.  Not a single communication

16     device had arrived Prijedor without me knowing about it.  Because it was

17     such a very professional and technical thing that it was never the case

18     that the chief would bring such devices himself because they were coming

19     from different professions.

20             But if you look at this minute detail, it speaks for itself that

21     a process was underway of separating functions.  Why were these devices

22     procured without me being involved in that?  It wasn't a big deal, but it

23     did happen.

24             So these things were going on.

25        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, can you tell us are you acquainted with

Page 24742

 1     Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, and if you are, for how long?

 2        A.   I have known him for quite a long time, but I don't know him

 3     well.  I know him from our student days.  That was back in 1973 or 1974.

 4     We were residing in the dormitory, but we attended different faculties.

 5     Therefore, we were not close.  So this was when I first got acquainted

 6     with him.

 7             After we'd finished school, I worked, and I told you where I

 8     worked; whereas, he was working with the Banja Luka police.  Our paths

 9     never crossed in terms of our careers.  I never saw him before.  I heard

10     of him through the line of work.  And then, later on, I don't know

11     exactly when, but I think when the multi-party elections were held, I

12     know that he was appointed chief of the centre, and, of course, as a

13     result, I found him to be more interesting as such, if I may say so.

14     But, again, I didn't have any direct contacts with him because he was the

15     second rung on this ladder, so he was above my chief according to the

16     chain of command, and as for professional line, he was the chief of

17     Rako Dragovic.  Therefore, I didn't have any need to communicate directly

18     with him.  But I knew him, as I said, and we would just greet each other

19     if we happened to come across one another.

20        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, in 1992, in Prijedor, did you have an opportunity

21     to see Stojan Zupljanin?

22        A.   Yes.  That was when this meeting was held.

23        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Jankovic.  Let me just ask you a question.

24             Do you recall approximately in which month this meeting took

25     place?

Page 24743

 1        A.   Yeah, I know the exact date.  As for this date, I know it exactly

 2     because of the piece of paper that I still have at home, and it was held

 3     on 9th of April, 1992.  I somehow happened to keep this piece of paper,

 4     and it's written on it.

 5             So shall I tell you about the meeting?

 6        Q.   Now let us just make some kind of introduction.  On the

 7     9th of April, 1992, you saw Stojan Zupljanin in Prijedor; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   Can you briefly tell us where you were on that day and what were

10     the circumstances of what you did when you arrived at the station.

11        A.   I mentioned that in my testimony in the Stakic case, and -- but

12     I'm now going to repeat it now.

13             On the 9th of April, 1992, on the morning of that day, I heard

14     that Chief Zupljanin was expected to come to Prijedor.  Of course, this

15     is news if a chief is coming to Prijedor.  However, I heard that he was

16     not going to come to the station but that he would first go to the

17     municipality in order to consult with the municipal leadership in order

18     to reduce the tensions, if possible.

19             Now, as I said, he was two levels above me within the hierarchy.

20     I presume that if he were to come to the station, my chief might call me.

21     However, since he was not coming to us, he was, rather, going to the

22     municipality, I didn't think it was of any significance and I went to

23     Bosanski Novi for an assignment in the company of one of our technicians.

24             I returned at around 1400.  I cannot be very precise.  It's half

25     an hour, give and take.  When I returned, I noticed that the situation

Page 24744

 1     was not normal.  This whole region -- and if you are familiar with the

 2     town of Prijedor, you would know that there is a small park in front of

 3     the municipal building.  After that, there is a bigger park, and, roughly

 4     speaking, this is an area which extends for some 150 metres, and behind

 5     the police station there was a court-house and also a small park.

 6             Now, this whole area was covered with scattered group of

 7     youngsters in civilian clothes, people of the ages of 19 or 20.  They

 8     didn't have any weapons but they all were dressed in jackets although it

 9     wasn't very cold and they all had their hands in their pockets.  They

10     were scattered around in groups of five or six each.  So the distance

11     between myself and that area was some 10 or 15 metres.  And I thought

12     there was something wrong about it, but it did attract my attention.  I

13     didn't scrutinise it too closely.  I went back to my communications

14     centre and my office.  I asked the duty officer what was going on, and he

15     said, I don't know.

16             In our building there was an unusually small number of people.

17     You hardly could see anyone in the halls.  When I went to my wife's

18     office, who was the inspector for economic crime, I asked her, What's

19     this?  She was busy working on some file.  She didn't know anything.

20             This caused some kind of concern in me, but in order to be too

21     conspicuous I asked her to join me so that we could go out and make a

22     circle around this park so that we can see all those groups.  She took me

23     by the arm and we walked together.  I managed to count roughly some 10 or

24     12 groups, times three to five, or ten, so that would make approximately

25     400 people, and that's a lot of people.

Page 24745

 1             After that, I got back, and when I was at the door of my office

 2     and I said that Muharem Ceric's office was next to mine, who I said was

 3     in charge of the reserve police, I saw that moment three men emerging

 4     from his office one after another.  They were whispering and all they --

 5     I heard them saying was, Just go slowly, one by one.  That was all.

 6             I entered my office and I saw the three men through my window

 7     going from one group to another and telling them something.  There was

 8     something going on, and I didn't know what it was.

 9             So I went to the chief's office.

10        Q.   Pause there, Mr. Jankovic.  Can you tell us, first, what was the

11     ethnicity of the individuals who were coming out of the office next door?

12        A.   I wasn't able to tell what their ethnicity was.  I know what

13     Ceric's ethnicity was, but not of the three that I didn't know.  I saw

14     them come out of the office one by one.  And then out of the window I was

15     able to see them working the various groups of people, going from one to

16     the next and telling them something.

17             I was telling you that I went downstairs in the direction of the

18     chief's office.  In the centre, you had the secretary's office.  To the

19     right, was the office of the chief.  And to the left was the office of

20     the head of the crime police.  He was called Bajo.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't catch the name.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His nickname was Bajo.  So I asked,

23     Bajo, what's going on?  Who are these people gathering around here?  He

24     said he didn't know.  A couple of minutes later, the secretary popped her

25     head round the door and said, Milos, she meant Bajo, do not leave the

Page 24746

 1     premises because the chief has just told me that a meeting will be held

 2     in his office, and Chief Zupljanin will be there.

 3             So, in fact, we stayed there for some 10 or 15 minutes more,

 4     roughly.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what the name of Bajo was?

 6        A.   Ranko Mijic, also known as Bajo.  That is how we referred to him.

 7     But his name was Ranko Mijic.

 8             And, in fact, Chief Talundzic did come.  We went to his office,

 9     and Talundzic addressed the secretary Mira, as he stepped into the office

10     and told her Miro -- Mira, if somebody should be looking after me,

11     please, I am unavailable.  We don't want to be interrupted.

12             Let me first tell you that I was caught quite unprepared.  I

13     didn't have a notebook with me or anything.  I wasn't ready for the

14     meeting.  I would normally have at least a sheet of paper and a pen to

15     make notes.

16             Anyway, I managed to get hold of this sheet of paper which

17     read -- and this is something that I found later on after the war because

18     I always kept these pieces of paper that I would have, and that's why I

19     can tell you this clearly because I still have this sheet of paper which

20     reads:  It was the 9th of April, 1992, and the meeting was attended by --

21        Q.   Excuse me, Mr. Jankovic.  But I'm just about to show a document

22     on this issue.

23        A.   Great, please do so.

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we call up 65 ter 00029D2 in

25     e-court.  That's in the Zupljanin Defence binder, number 6.  And I'll

Page 24747

 1     give you a hard copy.

 2             Can I have the usher's assistance, please.

 3        Q.   Perhaps you should consult what you have before you.

 4        A.   Yes.  I can't really read what the screen shows, the monitor.  I

 5     prefer to look at the paper.

 6        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, please, look at the date.

 7        A.   The paper reads the 9th of April, 1992.  And it's my handwriting.

 8             Shall I start?

 9        Q.   It says:  Chief of centre --

10        A.   Let me just note for the rest who are listening to me that this

11     may be a sort of professional deformation of mine.  You see, when I make

12     notes on these little pieces of paper, they are intended solely for

13     myself, and it's just the backbone of an event.  It's the skeleton.  And

14     that's why the text is very curt, perhaps, to some, meaningless.  But I

15     can tell you exactly whey meant by what I noted here.

16             So let me clarify for you what it is that I jotted down.

17        Q.   Can you read the title, please.

18        A.   So what I wrote up there is the date.  Chief of centre.  And

19     meeting.  In other words, meeting with the chief of centre.

20             Beneath it, it reads main or basic agreement.  Well, that's not

21     what it was but that was what I wrote down.

22        Q.   Can you go through the various names and tell us who they were?

23        A.   Of course, I will.

24             And as I said, this was just an abbreviated way of making notes.

25     Stole stands for Mr. Zupljanin.  Hasan stands for Hasan Talundzic, the

Page 24748

 1     chief.  Dule --

 2        Q.   Can you just slow down, please, for the sake of interpreters and

 3     the court reporter.

 4        A.   Let me repeat then.

 5        Q.   But slowly, please.

 6        A.   Let me repeat:  Stole stands for Stojan Zupljanin.  Hasan is the

 7     chief of the station, Hasan Talundzic.  Dule is short for Dusan Jankovic,

 8     the then-commander.  Kecan, that's the last name, Radovan Kecan,

 9     assistant commander for crime within the station.  Ziko stands for

10     Zijad Basic, again, assistant commander, but he was charged with a

11     different line of duty.  I don't know which exactly.  Fikret stands for

12     Fikret Kadiric --

13        Q.   Could you please slow down.

14        A.   Right.  Fikret Kadiric was commander of traffic police at the

15     time, I believe.  Djuro, that was Djuro Prpos.  I think he was Fikret's

16     deputy at the time.  He was traffic and transport engineer by profession.

17     Next to Djuro is Mijic, which is the Ranko Mijic I was referring to.

18     Then there's me and the chief of public security.  I didn't know the man

19     before.  Jahic or Jehic, I am not sure.

20        Q.   So Bajazit Jahic, he was what?

21        A.   It says "JB" meaning chief of public security --

22        Q.   Of which institution was that?

23        A.   In my understanding of the structure at the time, he was the

24     chief for the overall public security, including us, and he was the one

25     who was immediately subordinate to Mr. Zupljanin.  There was him and the

Page 24749

 1     chief of state security.

 2        Q.   So chief of public security of the Security Services Centre; is

 3     that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm not sure if that's convenient time for the

 6     break.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We would take a break and return in

 8     20 minutes.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

12             JUDGE HALL:  We reconvene for this last session under

13     Rule 15 bis; Judge Delvoie being absent.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 2 -- or rather,

16     65 ter 000292D.  Can we have it on our screens again.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where did we break off?

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Sir, let's go back to Mr. Bajazit Jahic, because his first name

20     wasn't in the transcript.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you tell us what was his ethnicity?

23        A.   Well, his first and last name tell us that he is a Muslim.  I

24     don't know how he declared himself to be.

25        Q.   So, Mr. Jankovic, were all these individuals whose names you

Page 24750

 1     jotted down here present at the meeting?

 2        A.   Yes.  I was writing their names as I was looking at them.  I

 3     could not have made a mistake.

 4             The meeting began, and I jotted it down, like this.  It was a

 5     habit of mine.  This particular meeting was no different from others that

 6     I attended.  It was simply a lifetime's habit.

 7        Q.   Can we please ask to you read what we can see here in the next

 8     paragraph.

 9        A.   Fine.  The meeting began.  Hasan Talundzic, the chief of our

10     station, opened the meeting.  He announced that the chief, Mr. Zupljanin,

11     would take the floor, which he did.  In this opening address of his --

12        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Jankovic.  Can we clarify one thing.  You said that

13     Mr. Zupljanin was supposed to come to the meeting in the municipal

14     building; whereas, he came to the meeting in the SUP.  So what became of

15     that meeting in the municipality, if you know?

16        A.   As we're discussing this, the way I jotted it down here, I didn't

17     know why he was there.  What I heard before from -- or, rather, what I

18     heard from my colleagues later was that this other meeting of his did not

19     take place so he came to meet with us.  It didn't sound illogical to me.

20     But this is what I heard, that the other meeting was not held.  But these

21     were unofficial sources.  It -- it was something that I heard in the

22     grape-vine.  It doesn't necessarily follow that it was the truth.

23             He wanted to hold the meeting because of the heightened tensions.

24     And of all those various stories I heard, I only remember the gist of it,

25     i.e., that he wanted to have a meeting in the municipal building with the

Page 24751

 1     leaders of the SDA, i.e., president of the SDA, Mirza Mujadzic, chief of

 2     the municipality, Cehajic, and other important figures, with a view to

 3     easing interethnic intentions in the municipality of Prijedor.  That was

 4     my understanding of his visit.

 5             Apparently he had not been received because -- well, let me tell

 6     that you both he and Mr. Bajazit had civilian clothes.  His driver

 7     apparently had a uniform and a short-barrelled weapon, let's say it was a

 8     pistol, and apparently this was the reason why these people wouldn't

 9     receive him.  That was the story about the town.  I don't know if it was

10     the truth or not.

11             At any rate, he came to the police building and we had this

12     meeting with him.

13             Another thing that I heard from these stories was that he did not

14     go back to Banja Luka taking the direct road but, rather, he took a

15     detour via Dubica because he was afraid of what might happen in Kozarac.

16     So, again, this is something that I heard.

17        Q.   Can you say what was the town he went through by way of detour?

18        A.   Dubica.  You have a 50-kilometre road between Prijedor and

19     Banja Luka.  Instead he took the road to Dubica, that was 30 kilometres,

20     then Gradiska, and then from there it took him another 15 --

21     50 kilometres to Banja Luka.  So basically it was twice the length of the

22     direct road, but apparently there was talk of barricades or roadblocks

23     having been erected in Kozarac.  I don't know if that was the case.

24        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, is it customary for the president of a municipality

25     or any other municipal official to refuse to meet up with a chief of a

Page 24752

 1     station simply because the person who was his escort carried a pistol?

 2        A.   That was non-sensical.  Let me say, first of all, that even in

 3     peacetime, chiefs of centre would be driven about by a policeman.  So the

 4     individual wasn't just a driver.  He was also a policeman and a

 5     body-guard.  And, of course, being what he was, such a policeman would

 6     have a uniform and a fire-arm.  I mean, really, what sort of a policeman

 7     would it have been without a fire-arm?  It wasn't a submachine-gun or

 8     anything of the sort.  It was a pistol which was issued to police

 9     officers by their establishment or position.

10             I'm not speaking specifically about his driver because I didn't

11     see him on that day, but I'm speaking from my experience about drivers

12     who as policemen would have a uniform and a pistol, and that's all.  And

13     it was no excuse.  In peacetime, when everything was completely calm, the

14     chief was always driven by a policeman.

15        Q.   I interrupted you.  Would you please go back to reading the

16     document.

17        A.   All right.  So I marked this with a 1 because that was the topic.

18     So under 1, I wrote down Stole said and Hasan said that it is best here.

19     The chief spoke about the organisation of the war time police units

20     exactly as they were defined in the regulations and so on, and he knew to

21     what extent that was respected or not, and he spoke in general terms what

22     needed to be improved, not only in relation to Prijedor but also all

23     other police stations because that was the situation then.  Everybody had

24     police stations.

25             And then I wrote Haso speaks about reserve formations.  He wants

Page 24753

 1     weapons.  Stole said that the transformation was needed.  This does not

 2     accurately reflect it.  But it boiled down to the situation that the

 3     chief of the station Hasan, or Haso, was saying, I know, Chief,

 4     everything is going well with us.  We have no such problems.  We have

 5     resolved all of that.  Because the chief of the centre was not saying, In

 6     your station this and this is wrong.  No.  He was speaking in general

 7     terms.  So Hasan said to him, Everything is going well here.  We have

 8     resolved all of these issues.  I'm stopping down for the sake of

 9     interpreters.

10             And then Hasan says, But we need weapons.  We have no rifles,

11     Chief.  And then he comes up with 700 people and 450 rifles.  These

12     numbers have stuck in my head from those times.  So 450 rifles and

13     700 men.

14             Chief Zupljanin spoke about that, saying, Well, gentlemen, why do

15     you need all these rifles?  We are public security.  We are in charge of

16     law and order.  We work with people.  Who are we going to fire at with

17     700 rifles?  Are we going to fire at the people with 700 rifles?

18             So that was the gist of his discussion.  It wasn't as brief as I

19     conveyed it to you, but that was what he spoke of.  He -- I wrote down

20     his words.  He said:  That's militarisation.  We are turning police into

21     army and we cannot do that.  We need to organise ourselves in such a way

22     as to persevere in this multinational environment without a conflict.

23     With ensuring that there as few conflicts as possible, that they're as

24     risky [as interpreted] as possible.

25             So that was the gist of his discussion.  Of course, not as

Page 24754

 1     briefly as I put it to you, but that's what he was saying.

 2             And the discussion took much longer than what I have told you

 3     here, but that's what they essentially spoke of.

 4             And then they moved to another topic.  I wrote down here:

 5     Transformation of the MUP and establishment of the CSB.  And then it is

 6     written down here:  Stole spoke about the transformation of the MUP.  I'm

 7     against splitting up of the service.  This is what the chief said, and

 8     this is what I wrote down.  Haso and Fikret do not want the badges.

 9     That's what I wrote down, but I will now explain to you what it was

10     about.

11             At the time the Prijedor station, the name kept changing.  It

12     used to be a station, and then it was the centre.  But at the time it was

13     the public security station that belonged to the centre in Banja Luka.

14     That's how it was in this particular period of time.  So, at that time,

15     the station in Prijedor belonged to the centre in Banja Luka.

16             There was a situation at a higher level, and I'm not going to go

17     into that because I'm not all that familiar with it, but they -- there

18     was this organisation of the part of the SUP organised by the Serbs in

19     municipalities with the majority of Serbian population in the area of

20     Bosnian Krajina and that was the jurisdiction of the Banja Luka centre.

21     I forgot which municipalities fell under them, but that's how it was.

22     And in the context in that organisation at a higher level a decision was

23     made that the police representing these persons that I have just

24     mentioned, conditionally speaking, Serbian municipalities, they weren't

25     really Serbian, but that's how I put it.  But it was decided that they

Page 24755

 1     should have their own insignia, and according to somebody's proposal,

 2     they were supposed to have a badge in the shape of a Serbian flag with

 3     three colours, red, blue, and white.  So -- and the flag was not in a

 4     rectangular shape.  It was a modified rectangle.  Somebody brought a

 5     prototype of that badge to show what it would look like, and I think that

 6     the chief didn't even take the badge for himself.  He gave to Zijad Basic

 7     and he said jokingly, Your wife is a Serb, so why don't you take this

 8     badge for yourself.  I think that that's how it was.  This is what I seem

 9     to have remembered.

10             It says here Fikret and Hasan.  They spoke the most.  They were

11     chief and commander of the police station.  They said that they wouldn't

12     take those badges.  They concluded -- the chief said, Well, I understand

13     what you're saying.  We will see what we are going to do with Prijedor

14     and Kotor Varos.  These are the municipalities that did not have the

15     majority of Serb population, and he said, We will see what will be

16     decided.  You don't have to wear these badges.  We will see what solution

17     will be adopted at the political level.  We will resolve this.  Don't you

18     worry.  We shouldn't turn this into a huge problem.  Why don't you find

19     an agreement amongst yourself to make sure that our basic work is taken

20     care of, our basic tasks, which was to reduce the interethnic tensions,

21     which were escalating.  That was my understanding.  And I understood that

22     he had come precisely for that reason, to have that meeting at the

23     municipality.

24             And then, in the continuation, we see I spoke about the concrete

25     agreement for us to be united.  Well, this sentence also sounds a bit

Page 24756

 1     illogical but it was me who took the floor at this point and I said to

 2     them, Listen, people, we can't achieve anything if in one office we have

 3     three Muslims sitting and whispering amongst themselves and in the other

 4     office we have three Serbs sitting and whispering to themselves.  We need

 5     to get together and speak openly, and that's the only way we can resolve

 6     things.  We should not go and isolate ourselves in little groups.

 7             So this entire meeting what I wrote down lasted perhaps for an

 8     hour.

 9             Shall I continue?

10             And then all of a sudden, so we were discussing this, and all of

11     a sudden a secretary showed up at the door saying, Chief, you are

12     urgently needed by Osmet Didovic who was the commander of the police

13     station in Kozarac.  And the chief said, Well, tell him to wait.  I'm

14     busy now.  And then she said, It's urgent.  Immediately, please.

15             So we stayed in the room and the chief went out of the room to

16     take care of this.  He didn't stay away for long time.  Hasan came back

17     and said, Listen, people, the situation is quite complex.  People from

18     Kozarac are moving in the direction of Prijedor.  I forgot how he

19     described the group, but the idea was that they were about to come to

20     Prijedor, and Osman came, allegedly, to talk to him about what needed to

21     be done.  And people were getting a little bit apprehensive, I mean us

22     who were there at the meeting.  And immediately we switched the topic.

23     We started talking about what should we do urgently to calm tensions

24     down.

25             So the chief was there, the other two, chief of the station,

Page 24757

 1     Fikret was quite actively engaged in everything that was happening.  And

 2     they concluded that they needed to call urgently two journalists.  One

 3     from a local radio station and the other one from the local newspaper,

 4     "Kozarski Vjesnik."  They were to be told to write immediately a

 5     proclamation and to broadcast it to calm the residents down, telling them

 6     that the police had the situation under control, that nothing bad would

 7     happen, nobody was going to attack anyone, that people should not be

 8     afraid, that they should stay calmly in their homes, that everything was

 9     under control, and that everything would turn out fine.

10             So they called these two journalists, who arrived promptly.  I

11     know one of them for sure, because he used to be a neighbour of mine,

12     lived in the building next to me.  His name was Nezirevic.  He was a

13     Muslim and he was to represent the Muslim population.  The other

14     journalist is somebody I didn't know from before, somebody said that his

15     name was Milos Aprilski.  I don't really the man, but it was a short

16     person with a round head and short hair.

17             So our leaders, chief of the station, chief of the centre, told

18     them what they needed to do, these journalists, that they didn't spend

19     much time telling them.  It wasn't in the nature of giving orders.  They

20     didn't really tell them, You have to do this, this and that.  No.  They

21     said -- they explained the situation.  They said, You're a journalist so

22     why don't you write this up and let's broadcast it to make sure that

23     peace is preserved.

24             I did not hear this proclamation on the radio, but later on I

25     heard that it really had a positive effect.  In the end I don't know

Page 24758

 1     whether these Osmet brought these people or not.  At any rate, there were

 2     no conflicts, no clashes that day in the afternoon.

 3             I heard that the chief went home after that, but not -- not

 4     taking the shortest road, rather, taking a detour.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have an

 6     exhibit number for this document, please.

 7             MR. HANNIS:  Your Honour, I have a concern, because the answers

 8     the witness has given about what the notes supposedly says in some places

 9     certainly doesn't match what is in the current English translation.  So

10     either we need to do something about revising the translation or going

11     through with the witness word by word, line by line, to see where it

12     differs.  Because it was difficult to tell sometimes when he was giving

13     his answer whether he was expanding, now having his memory refreshed by

14     seeing his note from April 1992, or if he was reading literally from the

15     note.  And that's my only concern about marking this as an exhibit at

16     this point.

17             JUDGE HALL:  But the -- if we have the note, and when the time

18     comes to understand what the note is about, the -- even if the -- what --

19     what the answers were to the questions was an expansion or explanation,

20     isn't that -- doesn't that resolve your concern, Mr. Hannis?  In other

21     words, it would be not unlike many exhibits.

22             MR. HANNIS:  Well, Your Honours, just a simple example.  At

23     line -- at page 52, line 19, he was asked to read the title.  And he

24     says:  Chief of centre.  And: Meeting.

25             The English translation says:  Chief of the centre and others.

Page 24759

 1     That's just the first example.  When we get down further into the body of

 2     the text, there's some substantial differences.

 3             He mentions that Mr. Zupljanin talked about this would be

 4     "militarisation."  I don't see that word anywhere in the note.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is there, it is.

 6             MR. HANNIS:  He explained he a special procedure in making these

 7     notes and sometimes using obscure abbreviations that only he would

 8     understand.  And that's the trouble.  The translator translating this

 9     doesn't know his secret code or terminology for some things.

10             JUDGE HALL:  And we have the benefit of the answers that he has

11     given.  And, of course, you can explore this in cross-examination.

12             MR. HANNIS:  I will do that, Your Honour, but in that regard,

13     then I guess I would ask that it be MFI'd until I've had a chance to do

14     that.

15             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's a

16     question of translation because the witness read everything out

17     accurately.  We can see it in the original.  The word "militarisation" is

18     there, as well as the heading:  The chiefs of centres and others.

19             Perhaps we should let the witness read this.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me.

21             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Because this is his document so we

22     should have him read this.

23             MR. HANNIS:  I agree.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  That would appear to be the simpler course

25     because although we have had the benefit of the -- I was going to say

Page 24760

 1     isolated answers you have given to specific questions, bearing in mind

 2     that a requirement for admissibility is that the document is one of the

 3     languages of the Tribunal, the practical difficulty here is that we see

 4     from the English version which has been submitted the difficulties that

 5     the interpreters would have had.  So we would give the document an

 6     exhibit number but take you up on your suggestion to have the witness

 7     read it in its entirety.  It isn't that long a document so that shouldn't

 8     take any length of time.  So we'll admit it and mark it, and then the

 9     witness can read the -- his original notes and we'll hear what the

10     interpreters say.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, as Exhibit 2D156.  Thank you.  I

12     apologise, 57.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, you heard this.  Can you please slowly read this

15     document out loud, without any comments whatsoever.

16        A.   Yes, I can read it.  But before that, or after that, I would like

17     to say something.

18             Now I'm going to start reading.  9th April 1992.  Yes, it is

19     easier to read from the paper.

20             9th April 1992.  Chief of centre and others.  GL agreement.  GL

21     stands for main.  Stole, Hasan, Dule --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   [No interpretation]

25        A.   Yes, yes, I understand.  I'm sorry.

Page 24761

 1        Q.   Please slowly.  Word by word.

 2        A.   All right.  Here we go.  Main agreement, Stole, Hasan, Dule,

 3     Kecan, Ziko, Stole, Hasan.  What are they waiting for?

 4             Hasan, Dule, Kecan, Ziko, Fikret.  Yes, but the screen is not

 5     reflecting what I'm saying.  That's why I'm looking at it, and it is

 6     confusing me.  Okay.  Ziko, Fikret, Djuro Mijic.  Mijic.  Now, Mijic,

 7     myself, and chief of JB, of public security, (Bajazit) Jehic or Jahic.

 8     I'm not sure of that myself.

 9        Q.   Go on.

10        A.   Number 1, Stole said as for RJM and Haso said -- and Haso said

11     that it's the best with us.  Haso is talking about the reserve force,

12     they want weapons, Stole said that it was militarisation.

13             Item 2:  Transformation of the MUP - the forming of the CJB.

14     Stole is talking about transformation of the MUP - I am not in favour.

15     I'm actually referring to him.  He was not in favour.  Haso and Fikret

16     did not want to take the badges.

17             And then down there:  I spoke about a specific agreement that

18     would bring unison among us.

19        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, could you please read the previous sentence because

20     you didn't read it in its entirety.  Not what you said but the comment

21     about the transformation of the MUP and onwards?

22        A.   The transformation of the MUP - the setting up of the CJB [as

23     interpreted], Stole is talking about the transformation of the MUP - I'm

24     not in favour of the splitting up of the service.

25             Yeah, I omitted that, I'm sorry.  Yeah, you're right.

Page 24762

 1             If you allow me to say just one more sentence about this and then

 2     we'll not go back to it.

 3        Q.   Can you please read carefully this issue about the transformation

 4     of MUP and where it says something about the forming.  What is this

 5     abbreviation?

 6        A.   The forming of the CSB, Security Services Centre.

 7             I didn't say that.

 8        Q.   Yeah, yeah.  Say whatever you want to say.

 9        A.   I need to say two things.  I finished with this note, but I

10     omitted to say that as far as the badges were concerned, the tendency in

11     the conversation between Fikret and Hasan was such that not that they

12     didn't want to have any badges but that they were opposed to the idea to

13     have Prijedor station detached from Banja Luka.  They preferred it to be

14     independent.  I was much too brief, and -- I'm afraid -- all right.  I'll

15     wait.

16        Q.   Please, just speak slowly if possible.

17        A.   Now I'm going to say it slowly.

18             I'm kindly asking everybody who is listening to me and looking at

19     this piece of paper of mine.  First of all, linguistically it is totally

20     wrong.  Such sentences not exist in our language.  They're totally

21     erroneous.  But the reason for that was not that I was not good in

22     writing, but, rather, because I acquired a habit over the time of making

23     such cryptic notes that would be clear only to me and nobody else.  For

24     that reason, it makes no sense to seek something and to read into this

25     document.  I'm the only one who can make any use of this document.  And

Page 24763

 1     as for what I said verbally is something that you should use.

 2             This is just a kind of aid that helped me expand.  For example,

 3     if you look at this doodling what I made while I was waiting, it means

 4     nothing.  It would be irresponsible if I produced this as a kind of

 5     document.  That was for my personal use, and that's why you have all

 6     these drawings.  This was just in aid of myself and this is not an

 7     official document.

 8             This is all I wanted to say.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Jankovic.

10             Can we go on, please.  Can you tell me what was the relationship

11     between your SJB chief, Talundzic, and Fikret Kadiric with respect to

12     Mr. Zupljanin and the visits of the former chief.  Was that the usual

13     relationship that it is in normal times or was it a different one?

14        A.   I'm glad that you asked me that, because in my view that is the

15     crucial thing.  While I was in the service, in many situations, the chief

16     of the centre, which is the capacity in which Mr. Zupljanin used to visit

17     us, was a post that was occupied by a very high ranking official, and

18     whenever such an official comes to visit a station, including ours, we

19     stood to attention.  And everything else is done at the same level.

20             Now, suddenly, things are taking a reverse course in this

21     meeting.  Okay, Fikret was a commander, he had vast experience in police,

22     but Hasan had no experience whatsoever in police.  Nevertheless, they

23     were acting in such an arrogant and brazen way.  They were treating us

24     like naughty children, trying to tell us, Don't go fighting each other.

25     You should behave yourselves.  Instead, they were putting certain

Page 24764

 1     conditions.  And this is something that was not so visible and so obvious

 2     but that was something that caused us concern.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for the counsel.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I'm sorry, can you please repeat this portion when you said about

 6     how mother treats her children.

 7        A.   So, under the current situation, the conduct turned into

 8     something opposite.  The chief was acting in a very calm and polite way,

 9     trying to appease them just like a mother tries to appease children when

10     they are being naughty.

11        Q.   Which chief are you talking about?

12        A.   Chief Zupljanin, the chief of the centre.  All the others were

13     just quiet, keeping quiet, acting in a neutral way.

14             Mr. Hasan Talundzic, the chief of the station, and Mr. Kadiric

15     were sort of putting forth certain conditions, saying, We don't want

16     this, or we want this, et cetera.  I couldn't see where this was leading

17     to, but I did know that that was not the way to do the business in the

18     service in -- in such a manner and that it was going to be wrong, and

19     that's why I found it difficult to accept.

20        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, apart from the persons that you mentioned and the

21     journalists who arrived later, was anyone else present at the meeting at

22     the Prijedor SJB?

23        A.   No, no.  All those who were present are noted down in my book.

24     In other words, only those whose names I jotted down were present there

25     with the exception of the two journalists who came later.

Page 24765

 1             As for Didovic, he did come in occasionally, but I didn't see

 2     him.

 3        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, after this --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for the counsel.

 5             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Will you please repeat what you said about Didovic because it was

 7     misrecorded in the transcript.

 8        A.   All right.  Only this portion.  The secretary of the chief,

 9     Mira --

10        Q.   Only this sentence where you mentioned Didovic.

11        A.   Will you please repeat?  Your microphone was off.

12        Q.   Only the last sentence when you mentioned Didovic.

13        A.   Didovic didn't come in.  I didn't see him, but Chief Talundzic

14     went outside, and I think that they talked there close to the door.  But

15     what they talked about, I don't know.

16        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, after this meeting, did any changes occur in the

17     public security station with regard to the insignia and other things.

18     I'm talking about the period leading towards the end of April 1992?

19        A.   End of April 1992, well --

20        Q.   Tell me, were the Serbian insignia put on, were any changes

21     effected?

22        A.   No, the Serbian insignia were not attached.  That's for sure.  I

23     cannot remember any details.  But so far as I know, we received a

24     dispatch from the centre for everyone to wear the Serbian insignia except

25     for Prijedor and Kotor.  I can't say exactly whether I saw it myself,

Page 24766

 1     whether I had this dispatch in my hands or not, or somebody else told me.

 2     All I know is that we did not wear those insignia for a short period of

 3     time.  In the meantime, tensions were heightening.

 4        Q.   When you say Kotor, what did you mean by that?

 5        A.   I'm talking about Kotor Varos municipality.  Because they had the

 6     same problems.  So these two municipalities were exempt from this

 7     practice.

 8        Q.   Please go on.  You started talking about the heightening of

 9     tensions.

10        A.   I'm sorry, can you turn the volume down.  I have such a terrible

11     noise in my earphones.  As though fighter jets are flying through my

12     head.  The noise is terrible.

13        Q.   Can you hear me now?

14        A.   Now it's fine.  Thank you.

15             What is your question?

16        Q.   Can you go on?  You started talking about the heightening of

17     tensions.  Continue, please.  What you wanted to say.  Did the situation

18     become calm in Prijedor or were the tensions on the rise?

19        A.   Well, tensions were on the rise every day.

20             Now, everything was the same; only it was more of it.

21             Now I don't have any sound in my headphones at all.

22        Q.   Please go on.

23        A.   I get interruptions.

24             So tensions were going up in the same style, so to speak.

25             Now, now it's okay.

Page 24767

 1             There were very many minute details that I don't want to go into.

 2     All I can tell you is that one can grasp the overall situation through a

 3     mosaic of small details, but when you see certain things on a daily basis

 4     and these things are going up and up in every sense, then you realise

 5     that the tensions were heightening.  Although this might sound personal

 6     and this is something that I never said to anyone, I will tell you, I

 7     omitted some of the things that were of a personal nature.  For example,

 8     Chief Zupljanin said at that meeting, You, meaning we who were present

 9     there, Must agree amongst yourselves about how to resolve this.  You

10     cannot wait for someone coming from the outside to do that for you.  And

11     then Fikret said, Sir, we cannot do that because some people here are

12     just spying upon other people.  That's the word he used.  And he pointed

13     the finger at me.

14             And then the next day he called me to his office, and I said that

15     Ago and he were sharing an office.  So Fikret called me and told me

16     literally this.  He says, You are crazy.  Don't you know that it's just a

17     matter of days when war will break out.  Are you going to assume the

18     responsibility that if you win you will not kill my family?  And I will

19     assume the responsibility that if we win I will not kill your family.

20             I can tell you, I was never in a position of power, and I cannot

21     make such promises to anyone.  I told him, I wouldn't kill your family

22     because that would not depend on me at all.  And to tell you the truth,

23     I'm not trusting you at all.  Even if you made this promise to me, I

24     wouldn't believe you.

25             This was a totally unnatural conversation at the time.  However,

Page 24768

 1     it was maybe a normal conversation given the situation that was

 2     developing.

 3             So I hope I was able to bring this reality closer to you, and

 4     that's what I meant when I said "tensions."

 5        Q.   In this period of time, was there a larger presence of armed

 6     individuals and army members in Prijedor and around it, and were there

 7     motorcades of military vehicles to be seen and did that have an impact on

 8     the general situation?

 9        A.   Yes.  Well, let me tell you that I'm not of the sort of people

10     who frequents cafes and drinks.  But there are a great many of those who

11     do.  And then you would have one cafe where members of one ethnicity

12     would gather and the other gather in others, and there there would be

13     talk of groups forming, weapons being procured.  Of course, this was not

14     in terms of a report that I received, something specific.  Simply, you

15     had this feeling of anticipation, waiting for that spark to hit off and

16     lead to something major.  Since there had been fighting going on in

17     Slavonia and there were people coming back from the front line there, you

18     were able to see out in the street people in a large variety of uniform,

19     camouflage, olive-green, dressed partly in uniform, partly in civilian

20     clothes, and that's how the situation was in general.

21             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, could we just ask the witness what

22     Mr. Zupljanin actually did to help resolve the problems in Prijedor?

23             You told us that at the meeting he had asked the persons present

24     to see if they could solve the problems by themselves.  And you also told

25     us that he exempted Prijedor and Kotor Varos from having to wear the

Page 24769

 1     Serbian insignia, at least for a short period of time.

 2             But what else did Mr. Zupljanin actually do to help avoid major

 3     conflicts in Prijedor?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking me?

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes, sir.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, I don't know that.  But

 7     I don't think that it would be the case that he would come to our office

 8     and see us only.  I don't know what he did on higher levels, and I cannot

 9     talk about it.  But as for the segment where I was present and when I was

10     listening him, there wasn't a sentence that he uttered that was not aimed

11     at easing tensions.  It was a reconciliatory tone seeking to calm the

12     situation down.

13             He was the supervisor of us all.  This is what I saw and what I

14     can tell you about.  As was the case with every member of the service and

15     every citizen who was interested in these matters, what I heard was that

16     he went to the municipal building to ease tensions and wasn't able to.

17     To what extent was he successful with us?  Well, let me give you an

18     assessment of it, though I'm not best placed to do so.

19             What was the extent of these tensions and the conflicts?  Well,

20     it was the intensity of a major fire which he tried to put out and was

21     unable to, but he tried to a certain extent and was able to put out the

22     fire to a certain degree.  Let's say that there were a dozen of us there

23     and if two were on one side, other two on the other side and the rest

24     were neutral, then, of course, they were open to influence and they were

25     open also to what he himself could tell them to tilt them either to one

Page 24770

 1     side or to the other.

 2             What I saw was that it was possible to reach agreement and there

 3     was need for one, and I was also able to see that those who were higher

 4     up, my superiors, and who were the ones that were the architects of my

 5     fate -- well, I'm not speaking about ministers.  I did not see them that

 6     high up.  But I did see that they had the opportunity to decide that fate

 7     of ours.  And in that context I was a bit concerned by the fact that

 8     these two took up such a hard-line where they wouldn't desist an inch.

 9             I hope I was able to answer your question.

10             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

11             Back to you, Mr. Krgovic.

12             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, you mentioned something that isn't in the

14     transcript.  You said your higher ups did not want a war.

15        A.   Yes.  This was something that I was interested in.  Was my

16     minister, my president of the country, or my prime minister, eager to

17     wage a war.  Well, if that is the case, then this is something that would

18     be conveyed down to us through my superior.  But that wasn't the case.

19     This wasn't what I saw.  What I saw down my hierarchy was an intention to

20     find an agreement and I felt that this was, indeed, going to be the case,

21     that we would find a solution and not wage a war.

22        Q.   What period of time was this between the period when

23     Mr. Zupljanin took up his position up until April?  Can you tell us, was

24     there at some point an incidence where there was public unrest, where

25     public law and order were disrupted?  Was there some sort of an incident

Page 24771

 1     of any sort?

 2        A.   In Prijedor or in the area in general?

 3        Q.   In the area in general.

 4        A.   Well, I can't remember.  I can't remember at this point.

 5        Q.   I will now change topics.  We will be discussing a different

 6     meeting.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's a new topic

 9     that I would like to embark on, but I can tell that the witness is

10     growing tired and is not as focussed on my questions as before.  Perhaps

11     we should adjourn today, since I am about to work on a topic which is

12     quite an extensive one.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we should rise earlier.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  We have been alerted to the difficulties that

16     the witness was likely to have.  Yes.

17             Mr. Jankovic, we're about to take the adjournment for today.  As

18     Judge Harhoff indicated to you when you came in this morning, your

19     testimony is likely to occupy us over several days so that the -- I would

20     ask you to bear in mind the warning that I'm about to give you at each

21     day's rising, and it is this.

22             That, having been sworn as a witness and your testimony having

23     commenced, you cannot have any communication with counsel from either

24     side in this matter, and, indeed, in such conversations as you may have

25     with anybody outside of the courtroom, you cannot discuss your testimony.

Page 24772

 1             Do you understand what I've just said?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  So we will rise and resume your testimony tomorrow

 4     morning in this courtroom at 9.00.

 5             Thank you.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

 9                           October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.