Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25521

 1                           Thursday, 10 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances today,

11     please.

12             MS. KORNER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Joanna Korner, assisted

13     by Case Manager Sebastiaan van Hooydonk today.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  It

15     seems I'm not awake yet.  For the Stanisic Defence team,

16     Slobodan Cvijetic and Ms. Deirdre Montgomery.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic,

18     Aleksandar Aleksic, and Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE HALL:  If there are no preliminary matters, could we go

22     into closed session so the witness can be escorted back to the stand.

23                           [Closed session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25522

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to take this

12     binder and give it to the witness.

13                           WITNESS:  SZ-002 [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]

16             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please call up P628; and

17     that is tab 22 in the Zupljanin Defence binder.  The ERN is 004353.

18             For your information, sir, it's in the upper right-hand corner.

19     4353.  I need the page with the ERN that I've just mentioned.  Item 8.

20     Page 5 in e-court.  In the English version it's page 8.

21        Q.   Sir, you remember that we discussed item 7 yesterday, and now

22     please focus on item 8 and the two incidents described in that item and

23     the following.

24             Some persons - their names aren't mentioned - dressed in dark

25     blue camouflage uniforms committed some offence.

Page 25523

 1        A.   I don't think we established that.  At that time, the uniforms

 2     were dark blue, as far as I remember, but I don't think they were -- they

 3     had a camouflage pattern.  We were not able to identify this.  We lined

 4     up the detachment members twice for identification because this language

 5     could often be seen: Member of the detachment.  But when we lined up the

 6     unit and when the victims inspected the men lined up, they were unable to

 7     recognise the perpetrators among the members of the special detachment.

 8             It was typical that any offence was attributed to members of the

 9     special detachment, and I mean the police detachment.

10        Q.   Now please look at item 10 where an incident is described.  An

11     abandoned apartment and one Petar Pozin moved in.  The tenant, the

12     rightful tenant, had left for Canada.  That's item 10.

13             Do you remember this event?  And had this person any right to use

14     that apartment?

15        A.   I think that this was legal, that somebody moved into an

16     abandoned apartment.  But somebody from the police also wanted to move

17     in, so there was a problem with that, I think.

18        Q.   Under 11 we see that on the 11th of June, 1992, one Novakovic,

19     member of the special detachment, killed a dog and there was a clash with

20     the dog's owner.

21             Do you remember the incident?

22        A.   Yes, I do.  In this case, I conducted an interview.  There were a

23     number of dispatches about this and basically the dog bit the man.  And

24     then he killed the dog and the dog owner reacted, but the man slapped him

25     on the face in anger.  But there was no official report later, no report

Page 25524

 1     about this incident.

 2        Q.   According to you, was there a reason why this man killed that

 3     dog?

 4        A.   To my mind, he obviously was unfamiliar with the way animals

 5     behave.  He shouldn't have reacted, but, you know, when you get attacked

 6     by a dog, it's difficult to control yourself.  I don't think this is a

 7     serious offence, and that person wasn't punished either, although he --

 8     he hit the dog owner.  But he could instigate a private lawsuit, if he

 9     considered it necessary.  As both men mentioned are Serbs, there's no

10     ethnic element in this incident.  No inter-ethnic element.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, please remind me of the relevance of

12     all of this.

13             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, leading this evidence

14     through a witness, the Prosecution tried to show that the members of this

15     detachment were not disciplined and yet were not punished, that no action

16     was taken against them, and that all men mentioned here were members of

17     the special detachment.  This consists of a number of documents, but

18     this, Your Honour, is a list of all events, a document that comprises all

19     the incidents that were reported to the police in Banja Luka.  There's

20     about a dozen documents, but this lists all incidents.

21             So I want to probe with the witness whether these men were,

22     indeed, detachment members, whether they really committed an offence, and

23     whether anything was done about that.

24             This is the purpose of my examination.

25             JUDGE HARHOFF:  I thought so.  But I should also remind you that

Page 25525

 1     the issue is, rather, whether any member of the special police detachment

 2     was involved in war crimes and other crimes as alleged in the indictment,

 3     and I think this simply falls below the threshold.

 4             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm proceeding

 5     incident by incident, but we will reach some incidents with an

 6     inter-ethnic element, such as the one in item 15 involving persons of

 7     different ethnicities.  The one in item 15 and later, the Prosecution and

 8     witnesses discussed that a lot and the Prosecution tried to show that no

 9     disciplinary action was taken against the members of such a unit;

10     whereas, we claim the opposite and are trying to prove that.

11             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Mr. Krgovic, be clear then.  You have to focus on

12     the issues that are raised in the indictment.  Disciplinary sanctions for

13     small petty crimes falls outside the scope of the indictment and it is

14     simply not relevant.  And neither party is at large to spend time on

15     issues that are not necessary to go through here in these proceedings.

16             So you have to focus.  If you think that you have an example in

17     this list that relates to discriminate behaviour regarding serious

18     crimes, war crimes and crimes against humanity and other crimes, or the

19     crimes that are alleged in the indictment, then focus on those and drop

20     the rest.

21             Thanks.

22             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I think we need to make it clear, I

23     think we have made it clear before, we don't dispute that some

24     disciplinary actions were taken against some officers, not, I may say,

25     the special police.  But we say, as Your Honour said rightly, we assert

Page 25526

 1     on the evidence that no disciplinary action was taken for the main part

 2     against members of the police for crimes that involve -- were committed

 3     against other ethnicities.

 4             So I hope that's clear.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thanks.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Krgovic.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Incidents in items 12, 13, and 14, where some crimes against

 9     Ejub Mustafic and Abid Cehic were committed, can you tell us the

10     ethnicity of the injured parties?

11        A.   They are Muslims.

12        Q.   Was the perpetrator identified?  Were the perpetrators members of

13     the special detachment?

14        A.   We were unable to establish that the perpetrators were, indeed,

15     members of the special detachment because nothing is known here about the

16     identity of the perpetrators.  But the offences in question involve five

17     litres of gasoline and the other was about 800 litres of oil.  This could

18     have been dealt with in private lawsuits.

19        Q.   In item 15, Sinisa Krizanac took a car off citizen Visatiski.

20     What is this Visatiski's ethnicity?

21        A.   He was a Croat or a Ukrainian maybe.  I suppose he's a Croat,

22     though, because there was this Croatian priest whose name was Visatiski.

23        Q.   What happened to this that man Krizanac?

24        A.   As soon as we learned about this incident, we kicked out --

25     kicked him out from the detachment and transferred him to the military.

Page 25527

 1     His case was further dealt with by Colonel Stevilovic.

 2        Q.   Question number 18 refers to an incident that I will skip.

 3     Marinko Maricic [phoen], what happened to him?  Did he stay in the

 4     detachment or was he thrown out?

 5        A.   He was thrown out.

 6        Q.   And let's just quickly go through this.

 7             Number 21, Damir Brajic.  Was he a member of the detachment?

 8        A.   Damir Brajic was never a member of the detachment.  It says here

 9     that he is an interesting person in that he had committed a variety of

10     crimes, and he was obviously inserted here with the intention of

11     discrediting members of the detachment.  But he was never a member of the

12     detachment.

13        Q.   Number 22 and 23 refer to an incident wherein members, some

14     members, of the detachment were arrested and the public security station

15     arrested them.  And then there's a reference to an incident where they

16     were freed from prison with the use of force.  Do you recall that?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   Were you involved in these incidents?  And can you describe what

19     you did at the time and what you know about this?

20        A.   We were informed about this.  Contact was made with Mr. Zupljanin

21     to notify him, because people seemed to believe that they had been

22     arrested unfairly over some stolen car, and proceedings took place after

23     that.

24             I know there was a lot of dissatisfaction among the members of

25     the detachment about this, so somebody from the command spoke to

Page 25528

 1     Mr. Zupljanin and Mr. Tutus, and I know that Mr. Zupljanin or somebody

 2     from the centre sent a dispatch to Minister Tutus to speed up this

 3     process because some members of detachment were involved.  Even I went on

 4     one occasion to the centre.

 5        Q.   Excuse me, I want to ask you:  Did you go to have this

 6     conversation before or after the dispatch?

 7        A.   I went after the dispatch.  Because, before that I had been to

 8     see Mr. Zupljanin and he told me that the dispatch had gone out already

 9     but that I should go and see Mr. Tutus.  They were in the same building,

10     so I went to Mr. Tutus's office and we talked about this.

11        Q.   And what did he tell Mr. Tutus?

12        A.   Well, first of all I asked for more information.  And when he

13     told me that it was about the theft of a car, that it was a crime, I said

14     the arrest was a good thing then.

15        Q.   Did you pass on this information to Mr. Zupljanin then?  Did he

16     say anything?

17        A.   Yes, I believe I told him, but I can't remember now.

18             Anyway, the only request was to speed up the proceedings, and I

19     believe there was a prosecution.  But it was a long time ago.  I can't

20     recall all the details exactly, but I know in the meantime there was an

21     incident involving some members of the detachment and even some of

22     Dubocanin's men who were in the same group.

23        Q.   Do you know if a criminal complaint was filed over this act of

24     forcible liberation of these people from prison?

25        A.   I believe the public security station in Banja Luka filed a

Page 25529

 1     complaint.  General crime is within their purview, so that all criminal

 2     complaints filed ex officio were written by the inspectors from the CID

 3     of the public security station in Banja Luka.

 4        Q.   Could you turn the page and look at number 24, please.

 5             Zeljko Mijatovic is mentioned here.  Do you know if he was a

 6     member of the special detachment?

 7        A.   I don't think Zeljko Mijatovic was a member of the special

 8     detachment.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: Some extra microphone is

10     on.  We suddenly can't hear very well.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mladen Dragisic is mentioned below here.  Do you remember him?

13        A.   Mladen Dragisic was a member of the detachment, but he was thrown

14     out because of misconduct.

15        Q.   Below we find a description of some incidents from 1993.

16             Could you turn the page that is marked in your copy as page 9.

17     You will see some names.

18             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] ERN -- it's ERN 435430, page 10 in

19     e-court, in B/C/S.

20        Q.   In your copy, it's page 9.

21        A.   No, it's not marked 9.

22        Q.   Perhaps I gave you the wrong copy.  Look at the screen then.

23             It's a list of persons who were allegedly on the detachment.

24     Look at number 8, Zoran Mijic, also known as Cosko.  Was he a member?

25        A.   Never.  As far as I know, he was on the military police.

Page 25530

 1        Q.   When you received these complaints from Banja Luka about

 2     wrong-doing by members of the detachment, what kind of offences were

 3     concerned?  Were there any serious acts, or were they misdemeanours of

 4     the kind mentioned here?

 5        A.   It's mainly the kind of acts that you saw mentioned in these

 6     papers with rather poor descriptions and especially poor identifications.

 7     It was usually about overstaying their welcome in a tavern, killing a

 8     dog, improper behaviour, or indecent behaviour.

 9             This list, this compilation that I commented on earlier, it was

10     actually done in 1993, as far as I can see, at the time of the greatest

11     discord between Vladimir Tutus and the chief of the centre.  And this

12     paper was a tool in their political struggle and jockeying for position.

13     Even the SUP filed some criminal complaints for serious acts, and

14     prosecutions took place.  And I don't really see a real reason for this

15     report covering two years.  Reports are usually made for six months or

16     annually.  And, indeed, I remember rumour had it that there was strife

17     among the leadership, and I believe this served their political purposes.

18        Q.   During your stay in Kotor Varos, did you receive any complaints

19     concerning a more serious act committed by members of the detachment?

20     Have you ever been told about something like that?  Do you know of any

21     such thing?

22        A.   No, I heard no such reports.

23        Q.   During your tenure in Kotor Varos, when you were at the public

24     security station or elsewhere, were you ever present during any incident

25     where people of Croat or Muslim ethnicity were abused?  Did you ever

Page 25531

 1     initiate something like that?

 2        A.   I was always strenuously against such things.  And what I saw was

 3     that paramilitary units brought these people into corridors, and there

 4     was physical abuse.  I even took one victim to Zupni Dvor, the parish

 5     house, to be given aid.

 6        Q.   Did you ever inform Colonel Stevilovic or any of the commanding

 7     officers of the Territorial Defence about such incidents, or whoever was

 8     in charge over the perpetrators?

 9        A.   I didn't need to because they were.  They were present.  But

10     there were discussions with Stevilovic and Dubocanin, and their story was

11     that it was impossible to control these men, these Burcani [phoen] men,

12     who were armed and violent.

13        Q.   In those few months that the detachment existed, were there any

14     complaints about the conduct of this platoon made up of professional

15     policemen?

16        A.   Well, the very fact that none of the members of that platoon were

17     ever taken off war assignments or thrown out shows that there were no

18     such complaints.  All these people had graduated from the schools of --

19     for internal affairs, and they were law-abiding.  And that's perhaps one

20     of the reasons why after the detachment was disbanded a decision was made

21     that only graduates from a proper school would be admitted into the

22     public security station, and that's why a secondary school for policemen

23     was established and specialised courses were instituted.

24        Q.   Speaking of these violations and misdemeanours and offences by

25     members of the detachment, to whom did you report?  Did you report to

Page 25532

 1     Stojan Zupljanin?  Was there any necessity to do that?

 2        A.   I kept him posted of all the problems, and I contacted mostly

 3     Stevilovic and Stevan Markovic.

 4             Stevilovic was the one who dealt with such things because he was

 5     the one whose men those were.  They belonged to the military.

 6        Q.   Which members of the detachment were usually responsible for such

 7     misconduct?

 8        A.   Mainly soldiers.  Members of the military.

 9        Q.   I wanted just a few clarifications of your prior testimony,

10     because I've looked at the transcript and not everything is quite clear.

11             When we were talking about members of the state security sector,

12     and I showed you that list, did it include people from the outpost in

13     Jajce?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, can I

16     know what list we're talking about?

17             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to go quickly, but --

18             Could the witness be shown what I believe is 65 ter 25D2; tab 2

19     in the Zupljanin binder.

20        Q.   Look at these two persons under numbers 24 and 25.  In which

21     branch office did they work?

22        A.   In Jajce.

23             MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... [Microphone not

24     activated]

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think perhaps they came to

Page 25533

 1     Banja Luka too.  But I believe they were in Jajce.

 2             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Were communications with Jajce disrupted?  And when?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly when communications with Jajce were

 5     disrupted.  I know that before this I went to Sarajevo for perhaps a

 6     month or two --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: The extra microphone is on

 8     again.  We can't hear a thing.

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you remember conflicts in Jajce, when it began?

11        A.   I can't recall.

12        Q.   In your interview you referred to the situation in the territory

13     covered by the CSB, the Security Services Centre, and the bulk of your

14     introductory part of your interview --

15             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Page number, please.

16             MR. KRGOVIC:  I'm just trying to find it.  Just one moment.

17             [Interpretation] Page 11 on this interview.  I'll read out the

18     question of the Prosecutor.

19             [In English] Let me just go back to point for a minute.

20             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Page number?

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  Line 13.  I don't know what version you have,

22     but --

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours --

24             MR. KRGOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, I think we can help.  I know the

Page 25534

 1     Defence loaded this into e-court.  If we could have the page up on the

 2     screen.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC:  Yeah.  I agree.

 4             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated]

 5             MR. KRGOVIC:  Just for a second, Your Honour.  I'm just moving my

 6     lectern.

 7             MS. KORNER:  I think Mr. Krgovic needs to give the number.

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  I am.  Just one moment.  I think ...

 9             I know this is in e-court, but I'm just looking for a number.

10             [Interpretation] This is doc ID 2D10-1843.  Page 11.

11        Q.   I'm going to read the question and the answer and then I'm going

12     to ask you to...

13             [In English] I can just go back to point for a minute.  I have a

14     couple follow-up questions.  The first sentence which states, as we read:

15     All my orders conveyed orally as well as those I made forwarded by

16     dispatch must be carried out, call in, they are your law.

17             MS. KORNER:  Yes, I think, to make it clear, what's happening

18     there is what's being put to him is the minutes of the 6th of May

19     meeting.

20             MR. KRGOVIC:  I agree, so ...

21        Q.   [Interpretation] And --

22        A.   I don't have it here.

23        Q.   All right.  Well, you need to listen to the interpretation in the

24     Serbian because we don't have it in the Serbian.

25             And then the Prosecutor asked you if this is true, if these

Page 25535

 1     orders and instructions issued by Mr. Zupljanin, either orally or in

 2     writing, were respected.  And I think you said, I think not.

 3             And then I'm reading.

 4             Then you said that actually the opposite was done, and you gave

 5     examples here of Srbac, Prnjavor, and some other municipalities, which

 6     ignored Mr. Zupljanin.

 7             Are you able to tell us first, when you say "areas," which other

 8     areas were you thinking of when you mentioned this?

 9        A.   In conversations with operatives, my colleagues, and also I

10     noticed personally, that -- the similar situation was in the areas of

11     Prijedor, Kljuc, Sanski Most, Kotor Varos, that he was not heeded nor

12     could he do anything much in Jajce.  For example, over there -- there was

13     a situation over there -- over all where we had no control whatsoever.

14        Q.   Are you able to tell us, what were your sources of information?

15     If you're able to tell us.  How did you know this?

16        A.   Mostly from our operatives.  I got in touch mostly -- or the most

17     information that I had, and I most frequently met with Predrag Radic,

18     with his typist, and in informal conversations we commented on the

19     situation, and that is what they said about those areas.  And I

20     personally had information.  I saw and I heard from some of our members

21     that, for example, Simo Drljaca was ignoring Banja Luka, and so on.

22             These were some of their observations.

23             Also, Mile Radulovic said that the situation was out of control

24     in those municipalities, that -- and this is the impression that I had,

25     that there were local people who preferred to rule their own small areas

Page 25536

 1     rather than be members of some team, generally speaking.

 2        Q.   I would like to show you a document now.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness

 4     Exhibit P00624.

 5        Q.   This is in tab 28 in your binder.

 6             This is a report on the work of the Banja Luka Security Services

 7     Centre from the 4th of April until the 31st of December, 1992.

 8        A.   December.  The 31st of December.

 9        Q.   Can you look at page 24 in your copy.  Actually, it's page 25 in

10     the Serbian version, and page ... I think it's page 25 in the English

11     version.  Let me just check that.

12             Yes, that is the correct page.

13             And there is a remark here.  I'm going to read from the report.

14             "The inefficacy, lack of professionalism, and negligence in the

15     work of a number of public security stations is largely a result of the

16     functional and operational independence of a number of SJBs from the

17     centre, which has greatly undermined the overall unity and social role of

18     the security organs and services.  At the same time, some of these SJBs

19     linked their activity to local politics and local political leaders,

20     neglecting their legal obligations and authority."

21             Well, in your copy could you please turn to the next page, that

22     is, page 25 in your copy.  And in e-court it's the same page in the

23     English version.  Second paragraph, which starts:

24             "A number of SJBs ignored the centre's requests for information

25     on certain issues and failed to react promptly to certain requests by the

Page 25537

 1     centre, thus jeopardizing the unity of the security organs and services

 2     and their ability to operate as a single security system."

 3             Sir, when you talked about the situation in certain stations and

 4     certain municipalities, certain public security stations, were there

 5     examples like the one that I have just read to you?  Was that the

 6     practice in 1992?

 7        A.   Yes, this is exactly what I said.  There were instances of this

 8     desire, which I mentioned before, for everyone to be a mini-sultan, and

 9     they evaded their legal obligations in relation to the centre.  This is

10     what people were saying, that they were actually doing the opposite of

11     what they were ordered to do in order to prove their superiority or

12     independence, in a way.

13        Q.   Let me go back to the events in Kotor Varos.

14             Are you able to tell me if these people that you negotiated with,

15     did you issue them any free movement pass during your stay in

16     Kotor Varos?

17        A.   Well, during these trainings such passes were issued to persons

18     who needed to establish some sort of contact.

19             As far as I can remember, I provided such a pass to the priest

20     and some other persons.  I cannot remember the exact instances, but it

21     was a kind of uniform pass that was printed by the local authority.

22        Q.   And the local authorities, did they respect these passes or were

23     there any problems in taking them into account?

24        A.   Well, there were incidents.  It was a problem with informing

25     people out in the field.  It's very difficult to transmit all the

Page 25538

 1     decisions in a timely manner, especially in a situation where there are

 2     groups that are not within the system, that are operating independently

 3     or are operating through some superior command.  So they don't have all

 4     the information at the local level that they require.

 5        Q.   Responding to my question yesterday, you talked about some

 6     tensions between members of the unit and individual police units in

 7     Banja Luka and other persons.  Were there any instances of this kind of

 8     animosity in Kotor Varos among the units, specifically between the

 9     special detachment and the local authorities?  Were there such things

10     happening among the Serbs?

11        A.   Well, there is a standard thing that there is a kind of jealousy

12     or sensitivity amongst certain units and organs and that everybody wants

13     to be in charge.  And then frequently there would be some justified and

14     unjustified conflicts breaking out among the members.  Sometimes you

15     would see, for example, a member of Dubocanin's unit mobilising a member

16     of the special detachment and ordering him to go with him without

17     previously consulting the detachment command.  There were things like

18     that constantly, this sort of back and forth happening.

19             There were also some negative events or instances being ascribed

20     to one another.  These things happened on both sides.

21        Q.   The Prosecutor asked you in their interview with you if you know

22     of any events.  I'm asking you about an alleged incident referred to in

23     the indictment which happened in June 1992.

24             Do you recall speaking with the Prosecutor about that?

25        A.   Well, I did speak with the Prosecutor.  I don't know about the

Page 25539

 1     information which they referred to.  They talked about actions.  I don't

 2     know if there was an action at the local level.  I do know that there

 3     were conflicts among members of ours.  I don't know if there were any

 4     incidents in that period or not.  What I do know is that it wasn't all

 5     regular as far as our unit members were concerned.  And others were

 6     saying that they had been betrayed at the front.  If one of ours was

 7     wounded, then they would say it's the fault of these other guys, and it

 8     was the other way that happened.

 9             I know that in that period there were many fighters who got

10     killed or were wounded both in our ranks and theirs.  There was sniper

11     activity on a daily basis from the opposite side.  So frequently citizens

12     and military personnel, soldiers, and policemen were being wounded or

13     died.

14        Q.   I did ask you, but this was not noticed -- noted.  I asked you

15     about the incident in front of the medical centre.  This is not in the

16     transcript, so could you please repeat your answer again.

17             At the time, at the point in time when you were asked by the

18     Prosecutor, did you know anything about this incident in front of the

19     medical centre or around it?  And do you have any information about the

20     participation of any special detachment unit in this particular incident?

21        A.   I said in this period that I was not there.  I don't know about

22     the incident that happened on the 24th or something.  I really don't know

23     anything about that incident.  I said that I would come from time to

24     time, spend ten days there.  I know that on the 29th there was a lot of

25     casualties.  Generally there were high casualties on our side in that

Page 25540

 1     period.  I don't know.  I saw that film.  All of it is accurate.  And

 2     this gave rise to tensions between the units, because members of our unit

 3     felt that they had been betrayed in that situation and that not

 4     everything was done to pull these men out.  After that, there had to be

 5     negotiations and there had to be exchanges of dead bodies and all of

 6     that, and that was a bit of a problem of a psychological nature.

 7        Q.   After these events in Kotor Varos, did you discuss them with any

 8     priest?  Or did you get any information from them about that?

 9        A.   Yes.  I said to the investigators that I had contacts with

10     priests and I wanted to discuss the events with them too, because they

11     were immediately involved, and I had contacts with them.  I wanted to

12     remind myself how it all went, and that's why I spoke to Mr. Visatiski.

13     And I even went to see Bishop Komarica.  And at that time I also met that

14     person about whom I said that I took him to the parsonage to wash.  He

15     now lives in Germany.  We had an informal conversation, and he said to me

16     that after that first beating he didn't have any problems anymore,

17     because while he was brought in the TO members beat him up.

18             And I spoke to the priests about the events there.  I had the

19     opportunity to read a book about the events written by one of those

20     priests.  It was basically an exchange of memories.

21        Q.   Before you gave the interview and when you were answering the

22     questions about carrying out the orders and instructions of Mr. Zupljanin

23     and the composition of the special detachment and Dubocanin, did you know

24     that Mr. Zupljanin had been accused?

25        A.   No.  I thought that the reason for the conversation was

Page 25541

 1     Mr. Brdjanin's acts.  That's what -- that was my conclusion from the

 2     conversation.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know that it isn't

 4     time for the break yet, but I would still ask to break now so I could get

 5     some time to skim through my notes.  I may not have any further questions

 6     for the witness, but I need some five minutes or so to make sure.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Should we take the usual 20-minute break or come

 8     back at the standard time of quarter of 11.00?

 9             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If possible, I would prefer 10.45

10     because I need to review some documents.

11             I don't think I'll have any more questions, but I do want to make

12     sure.

13             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So we return at 10.45.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE HALL:  I'm sorry, could we go into closed session, please.

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25542

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honours, thank you for time given to me for

11     the break.  I don't have any further questions for this witness.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Cvijetic.

14             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15                           Cross examination by Mr. Cvijetic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   I'm going to deal with some things you said at the outset of your

19     evidence.

20             And I'll go into the status of the State Security Service where

21     you worked, in terms of hierarchy and the system of communications and

22     reporting.

23             As far as I understood, your service in Banja Luka had a

24     horizontal line of subordination in place within the centre and a

25     vertical line, according to the lines of work towards the Secretariat of

Page 25543

 1     the Interior of the republic.  That is, to be more precise, up to the

 2     under-secretary for state security in Sarajevo.

 3             Am I right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   But you said that there was also a line towards the

 6     Federal Secretariat of the Interior of the Yugoslavia, and, to be more

 7     precise, the 4th Administration.

 8             Did I understand you correctly?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   We're obviously talking about the pre-war period because we are

11     saying the word "secretariats"; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   However, when the war broke out, this vertical line along the

14     line of work that led to Sarajevo was severed; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The horizontal line towards the CSB chief in Banja Luka remained

17     in place; is that so?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   The Milos Group still had that line towards the Yugoslav bodies

20     in place.  I think you said that one went towards the JNA probably and

21     the other towards the Federal Secretariat of the Interior.  Am I right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When the Ministry of Interior of the RS was established, for

24     objective reasons the vertical line towards the headquarters of the newly

25     established ministry did not exist initially, did it?

Page 25544

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   These objective reasons have two aspects:  Firstly, there was a

 3     physical interruption of road communication [as interpreted] because the

 4     Muslim and Croat forces cut through the corridor; and the other was the

 5     disruption of telecommunications lines.  Isn't that right?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   The precondition for the re-establishment of this vertical line,

 8     or the preconditions, were in place only as of sometime in 1992; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I'm going to direct you to a document shown to you by

11     Mr. Krgovic.  The number is P1502.  And let us stay at page 1.

12             In your binder, it's tab 24.

13             Take a look at it to remind yourself of its contents.  You've

14     already commented on this report.

15             Please focus on paragraph 1.

16        A.   "In order to fully implement" --

17        Q.   You don't have to read it out loud.  Just take a look at it.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And then the third paragraph.

20        A.   All right.

21        Q.   Sir, I don't remember if you said so already -- actually, you

22     did.  You said when the unit was disbanded and when people were taken off

23     the payroll.  But did you know at the time that it was done pursuant to a

24     decision of the Ministry of the Interior?

25        A.   No.

Page 25545

 1        Q.   But did you hear of the decision to disband the unit?

 2        A.   I heard of the decision to disband the unit at the level of the

 3     government or the Presidency or -- that it was a decision of the Assembly

 4     of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's what we were told.

 5        Q.   But you can tell from this report now who it was, actually, who

 6     took that decision; right?

 7        A.   Yes.  I can see it was the minister's decision.

 8        Q.   It says up there that the minister adopted the decision on the

 9     27th of July.

10             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Can we get the -- sorry to

11     interrupt, Mr. -- can I assist, Mr. Cvijetic, because he may not have

12     seen it, I suddenly realise that neither the Defence nor us had put in

13     the minister's decision so I've added it, so it's available if

14     Mr. Cvijetic wants to show it to the witness.

15             It's at our new tab 27A.  And it's up to you, Mr. Cvijetic.  But

16     if you want to show him the decision, it is available.

17             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's a document that

18     I had announced already, but it seems that I cannot get there yet.

19             I want to show it to the witness.  Ms. Korner anticipated it

20     correctly.

21        Q.   In this paragraph we read that the minister, at a meeting held on

22     6 August 1992, he insisted on this.

23             Can you see that in paragraph 3?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness the

Page 25546

 1     minister's order.  And I believe that Ms. Korner was wrong after all

 2     because it's already an exhibit.  The number is 1D176.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, it's quite -- I know it's an exhibit,

 4     but nobody put it on their list, I thought.  But I hadn't appreciated or

 5     I'd forgotten that Mr. Cvijetic had mentioned two documents, so I'm sorry

 6     for interrupting and I needn't have bothered to add it to our list.

 7             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You have the decision on the screen.  I can also give you a hard

 9     copy.  It's the second document at that tab.  It may be easier for you to

10     read.  Please focus on paragraph 4.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   This is what we're talking about.  The minister ordered the

13     disbandment of all special units.

14             It is also mentioned further down that a single unit of that

15     kind, a special unit at brigade or detachment level, be formed for the

16     entire ministry; also, that it would be manned in the way mentioned here,

17     by way of vacancy announcements.  Can you see that?

18        A.   You mean here?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   When there was the discussion about the disbandment of your unit,

22     did you hear that a single unit of the ministry headquarters was to be

23     formed?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   And my last question:  Do you know that under the Law on

Page 25547

 1     Internal Affairs the exclusive right to establish such units is with the

 2     minister himself?

 3        A.   Well, basically, the minister takes all personnel-related

 4     decisions and signs all -- signs all of them.  It was, indeed, the case

 5     that the under-secretary for state security; that is, the highest in

 6     rank, signs all decisions on appointment, and so did the minister

 7     probably.  That's how it was under the rules.

 8        Q.   My question was more specific than that, though:

 9             Did you know that the -- that under the law only the minister

10     could set up special units of the MUP, that it was his exclusive right?

11        A.   Yes, that's what we were told.  And basically that is a rule,

12     that the highest ranking, the most senior officer decides about such

13     matters.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I have no more questions.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner.

16             MS. KORNER:  I did ask Mr. Cvijetic whether one hour, "up to one

17     hour," meant five minutes or 45 minutes.  I see it meant five.

18             If Your Honours would give me one moment.

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. Korner:

20        Q.   Sir, you were a member of the special police between May and

21     August of 1992; is that right?

22        A.   I said as much in my interview, that I was liaison officer.

23     Which means that some tasks were in my remit from about May until

24     mid-year.  And I did some work of that kind even later.  But as of

25     mid-July the detachment didn't really function as a unit for some

Page 25548

 1     personnel problems.

 2        Q.   Right.  Now, let's set some ground rules, shall we?

 3             Just, please, answer the question that I ask you.  I did not ask

 4     you what position you were in, in the special police.  I'm going come

 5     back to that.  I simply asked whether you were a member of the special

 6     police between May and August of 1992.

 7        A.   [In English] Yes.

 8        Q.   Yes, well, I know you speak English, but I'm afraid you better

 9     stick to your own language because it's going to confuse everybody

10     otherwise.

11             But what I'm trying to explain to you, sir, is that unless you

12     answer my questions shortly and only answer the questions I ask, this

13     will take much longer.

14             Do you appreciate that?

15        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

16        Q.   All right.  As I say, I'm going to come back to your actual

17     position later.

18             Do I take it from what you say that you do not consider that you

19     have been guilty of any kind of criminal offence whilst you were a member

20     of the special police?

21        A.   Could you please repeat this question.

22        Q.   Yes.  You do not, as I understand your evidence, consider that

23     during the time you were in the special police you committed any kind of

24     criminal offence?

25        A.   That is correct.  I do not consider that I did.

Page 25549

 1        Q.   Do you consider that other members of the Banja Luka special

 2     police committed criminal offences?

 3        A.   Some did.

 4        Q.   All right.  Are you ashamed at all of your actions during the

 5     period that you were with the special police?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   You feel there is nothing that you did that in any way you should

 8     feel ashamed of?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   So there is no reason at all why you would not include in your CV

11     of your time with the police that period you spent in the special police?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   All right.  Well, I want to come back to that a little later.

14     But I want to go back to how you first came to give a statement, if we

15     can put it that way, to the Defence in this case.

16             You told us you were first approached by the Defence -- and let

17     me just find the page where you dealt with that.  Just a moment.  Sorry.

18             This is at page 25396.  You told us you were approached by

19     Mr. Bojnovic towards the end of last year; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You knew Mr. Bojnovic as an ex-member, did you not, of the

22     CSB Banja Luka?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now employed as an investigator for the Zupljanin Defence.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 25550

 1        Q.   Before that, had you had any -- any personal contact with

 2     Mr. Zupljanin by telephone from the Detention Unit?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Are you sure about that?

 5        A.   I contacted him only once.

 6        Q.   And when did you do that --

 7        A.   Much later.

 8        Q.   Right.  And when did you do that --

 9        A.   I can't remember precisely, but I had a brief conversation with

10     him concerning something I needed.  I never discussed his case.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's start this again.

12             Did you have this contact, when you made contact with

13     Mr. Zupljanin, before or after you had a conversation with Mr. Bojnovic?

14        A.   After my encounter with Mr. Bojnovic.  I believe it was when one

15     of those people from outside were there.  I talked to him.  Perhaps it

16     was even Mr. Krgovic.  I asked if he could be contacted concerning a case

17     of mine, and I spoke to him briefly.

18        Q.   I'm sorry.  You're having a meeting with Mr. Krgovic to discuss

19     your evidence; is that right?

20        A.   No.  Yes, we were discussing that, but on that occasion I

21     inquired if it would be possible to contact Mr. Zupljanin concerning a

22     case I was handling.

23        Q.   I'm sorry, I don't understand that.  What case?  And why would

24     you be contacting Mr. Zupljanin who's been in custody for the last, I

25     think two years?

Page 25551

 1        A.   Could we move into private session, please?

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25552











11 Pages 25552-25553 redacted. Private session.















Page 25554

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 8             MS. KORNER:

 9        Q.   Right.  Now let's go back to what you've just said.

10             You may have been present "when somebody called him or he called

11     someone, because he does make a lot of telephone calls."  Right.

12             Now, with whom were you present when Mr. Zupljanin rang that

13     person up?

14        A.   Well, I can't remember now.  It was perhaps in a bar when

15     somebody called him, or he said that somebody had called him, something

16     of the sort.  But, in any case, I did not have any discussions with

17     Mr. Zupljanin about this case, here.

18        Q.   Yes.  Or so you say.  Let's stick to this other person that you

19     were in a bar with.

20             So Zupljanin rang him, did he, on his mobile phone?

21        A.   Yes.  Probably the mobile phone.  What else?

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... right.  Well, now, think

23     hard, sir.

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25        Q.   Who was that person?

Page 25555

 1        A.   If I could remember now.  One of the people who know him.  I

 2     could not give any names now, but one of the people from his political

 3     party.  I can't recall.

 4        Q.   Well, what was his political party?

 5        A.   I think he was in the SDS.

 6        Q.   Well, fine, that -- that -- quite.  There comes --

 7        A.   I mean, I have no proof of that, but I suppose so because at the

 8     time when he was appointed to his position, it was a requirement, of

 9     sorts, to be a member of the Serbian Democratic Party.  So that's why I

10     make that assumption.

11        Q.   Right.  So are you saying it was a requirement for the chief of

12     the CSB to be a member of the SDS, to get support from the SDS?

13        A.   Well, for the most part, in all countries, the ruling parties

14     tend to appoint their own people.

15        Q.   Well, I'm not interested in most countries.  Let's stick very

16     much, please, to the Republika Srpska.

17             Was Mr. Zupljanin, who you knew well, a member of the SDS?

18        A.   [No interpretation]

19             MR. KRGOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... that's not a question,

20     Your Honour.  First off, told Mr. Zupljanin, who know him well, was a

21     member of the party, so ...

22             MS. KORNER:  No, no, he's already said he knows him well.

23             MR. KRGOVIC:  He didn't say that.

24             MS. KORNER:  All right.

25        Q.   Sir, do you know Zupljanin well, having worked at the CSB for

Page 25556

 1     many, many years with him?

 2        A.   Yes, I know him.

 3        Q.   No.  The question was:  Do you know him well?  Just to keep

 4     Mr. Krgovic happy.

 5        A.   Well, what can I tell you?  Knowing someone well is a tricky

 6     matter.  I know him as the chief of the centre.  I know him from around

 7     town.  I've known him for many years.  I know he graduated from the law

 8     school, and logically I know him.  But to have been intimate with him, to

 9     have sat over coffee together, we didn't do that.

10        Q.   You never had a coffee with him?

11        A.   I may have had coffee with him on some occasion, but we didn't

12     really socialise or were friends.  We were not close.

13        Q.   All right --

14        A.   But I know him rather well as a man.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, knowing him rather well as a man and knowing him

16     as a police officer, was he a member of the SDS?

17        A.   Well, I've said already that I supposed that he could have been a

18     member of the S [as interpreted], but I can't be sure.  Because I was not

19     a member of any party myself.  And we who were outside of political

20     parties, we thought that it might be a pre-condition for promotion,

21     although it maybe wasn't.  It's just something I supposed.  I cannot

22     really bet my house that he was.

23        Q.   All right.  Well, did he ever say to you during the course of

24     your employment, "I'm just off to a meeting of the SDS"?

25        A.   I was not in a position to be with him when he would have said a

Page 25557

 1     thing like that because he was the chief, and I was an operative working

 2     in the field.  I would have seen him only in passing, and he had no

 3     obligation to keep me posted on everything.  It would have been too much

 4     to expect.

 5        Q.   All right.  I want to go back, please, to the question of phone

 6     calls from Mr. Zupljanin to people when you were present.

 7             Roughly how many times did that happen?

 8        A.   I think it happened once.  But somebody also mentioned that he

 9     had a telephone call from him in my presence.  I think somebody mentioned

10     something like that.  Perhaps a close associate of his.  I cannot claim

11     with any certainty, but I know that somebody did mention it.

12        Q.   Look, you say perhaps a close associate of him.  You clearly do

13     know who this was, sir.  Please, would you tell the Court the name of

14     this person.

15             And we can go into private session if you'd prefer to say it in

16     private session.

17        A.   All right.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25558

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             MS. KORNER:

 6        Q.   Did Mr. Zupljanin ever call Mr. Radulovic to your knowledge?

 7        A.   I wouldn't know that.  But I know that Radulovic came to see me

 8     once --

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

10        A.   -- when there was still no mention that Mr. Zupljanin would be

11     arrested, and he told me that he should make contact with Mr. Zupljanin

12     for the purpose of his Defence or preparation or something, and so he

13     asked me if I knew his, that is to say, Mr. Zupljanin's, whereabouts,

14     whether I was in touch with him, and I said I don't know.  I had no

15     contact with him.  And on that occasion he came across as somebody who

16     was looking for information for Mr. Zupljanin's purposes.  That was a

17     brief conversation, and I know Mr. Radulovic too.

18        Q.   All right.  Sir, I just want you to concentrate one last time on

19     this question:  Have you discussed with Mr. Zupljanin the evidence that

20     you were going to give in this case about the special police?

21        A.   I don't know that I discussed that.  I think I informed

22     Mr. Krgovic of this, and he is the one who told him.

23        Q.   I'm sorry.  This may be a question of translation.  It's a very

24     simple question, and your answer doesn't make much sense.

25             My question was:  Have you discussed with Mr. Zupljanin over the

Page 25559

 1     telephone the evidence that you were going to give in this case about the

 2     special police?

 3             And the answer, as translated, came: I don't know that I

 4     discussed it.

 5             The answer is either "Yes, I did discuss it" or "No, I did not."

 6        A.   Well, I can't say with any certainty whether it was Mr. Krgovic

 7     who told him or it was me.  But the discussion at that moment was whether

 8     I would accept to testify before this Court, and I told then Mr. Krgovic

 9     that I would testify.  Whether he passed that on to him or not, I don't

10     know really.

11        Q.   Isn't it the case that Mr. Zupljanin got in touch with you before

12     you saw Mr. Krgovic and asked if you'd be prepared to give evidence for

13     the Defence?

14        A.   I cannot confirm that.

15        Q.   Well --

16        A.   I mean, really.  Take my word for it, I really don't keep records

17     or notes of that kind.  It was a spontaneous contact, as it turned out,

18     with this colleague from the police force who asked me, and that was

19     followed by another contact when Mr. Krgovic came too.  Now, how exactly

20     I said it, when, I can't recall.  And I don't know who in -- which of the

21     two informed Mr. Zupljanin of my decision.

22        Q.   All right.  I'm not going to --

23             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's a matter of

24     interpretation.  Maybe you should ask him whether he spoke to

25     Mr. Zupljanin over the telephone personally.

Page 25560

 1             MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry, I didn't

 2     realise that it was unclear --

 3             THE COURT REPORTER:  Microphone, please.

 4             MS. KORNER:  I'm sorry.

 5             I didn't realise that the question "Did you speak to

 6     Mr. Zupljanin about the --" sorry, I'll repeat the question, "that

 7     Mr. Zupljanin got in touch with you before you saw Mr. Krgovic and asked

 8     if you'd be prepared to give evidence for the Defence" could be

 9     misinterpreted, but I'll try.

10             Did you speak over the telephone to Mr. Zupljanin and in this

11     conversation he personally asked you to give evidence for the Defence?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Is it your evidence, then, that Mr. Bojnovic said to you that

14     Mr. Zupljanin wants you to give evidence for the Defence?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Right.  And did Mr. Bojnovic explain to you that what

17     Mr. Zupljanin wanted you to say was that, in effect, he had absolutely no

18     responsibility for the actions of the CSB special police?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Did he - Mr. Bojnovic or anybody else - tell you that you should

21     say that the special police, to all intents and purposes, came under the

22     authority and control of Colonel Stevilovic?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Because in neither your evidence --

25             MS. KORNER:  I think, okay, we better perhaps go into private

Page 25561

 1     session, Your Honours, for what I'm going to put next.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25562











11 Pages 25562-25566 redacted. Private session.















Page 25567

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you were going to ask me about

12     my movements ...

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... no, I'm going to ask

14     you where --

15        A.   [No interpretation]

16        Q.   -- where you did your military service.

17        A.   I disagree, because the questions have to do with my career.

18        Q.   Correct.  Where did you do your military service?  Did you do

19     your military service in Banja Luka?

20        A.   No.  And never before the war had I been in any military barracks

21     in Banja Luka.  I served in Bileca.  After that, I was transferred to

22     Pancevo and after that to Titovo Uzice.  That's where I did my military

23     service.  And if you were to ask me about the way the barracks in Pancevo

24     were run, I wouldn't be able to tell you.  I wouldn't be able to tell you

25     the name.  I only know that it was a barracks of the Army of Yugoslavia.

Page 25568

 1     And when somebody mentioned to me a barracks in Banja Luka, I know only

 2     that it's in Banja Luka.

 3        Q.   All right.  Okay.  So you didn't know that it was

 4     5th Krajina Corps.  You didn't know it was 1st Krajina Corps.  Had you

 5     ever heard of General Talic?

 6        A.   Yes, I heard of General Talic.  And I had contacts with him as a

 7     liaison officer.

 8        Q.   Right.  Now, are you saying in your contacts with General Talic

 9     you never appreciated that Colonel Stevilovic was the chief of

10     intelligence or security?

11        A.   I never had conversations about other people's positions.  I know

12     that there was talk that he was an intelligence officer.  But whether he

13     was chief or deputy chief or whatever, that was unimportant to me.  And I

14     never spoke about personnel-related matters with General Talic.  I only

15     spoke about contacts with UN personnel, and I was present at times and

16     absent at other times.  And I'm unable to say anything special about him.

17     I met him at Stara Gradiska where the command post was a couple of times.

18        Q.   You have - I take it, then, as you say you're not interested in

19     military - no idea of what the functions of an intelligence officer, even

20     one as senior as Colonel Stevilovic, is, or are?

21        A.   Well, this question is really totally unrelated.  If I was state

22     security staff, then I know what it means when somebody is an

23     intelligence officer.  The more so since in Pancevo I did a special --

24     specialisation course.  And I know that an intelligence officer,

25     according to military rules, outranks a regular officer even if the

Page 25569

 1     latter has a higher rank.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 3        A.   That's what I know.  At least that's how things were seen in

 4     state security.

 5        Q.   You see, because you're saying, as I understand it, that

 6     Colonel Stevilovic, the chief of intelligence/security for the

 7     1st Krajina Corps, in fact, was in direct command and control of the

 8     whole of the Kotor Varos military operation.  That's what you're

 9     suggesting, isn't it?

10        A.   I suppose that he was the main co-ordinator.  I know that when he

11     was killed people were saying that the greatest pity was that his

12     notebook had gone missing, where he had all the plans not only for

13     Kotor Varos but beyond.  So he was the man with the plans of activities.

14     And the problem was that his bag with documents and maps was lost when he

15     got killed.

16        Q.   You see, let me make this quite clear to you, sir, in case you

17     hadn't gathered it already:  I'm suggesting that what you have told this

18     Court is simply not true, that, in effect, there was a combined

19     military/police operation in Kotor Varos.

20             Do you agree there was a combined military/police operation in

21     Kotor Varos?

22        A.   I disagree.  Firstly, you are obviously unfamiliar with our laws

23     and regulations and also with military rules.  Under those laws and

24     rules, when a military operation is conducted everybody present must be

25     resubordinated to the military.  I'm an infantry officer in the army, and

Page 25570

 1     if I have learned anything, this is it.

 2             So whoever took part in any action not only in Kotor Varos but

 3     also in the corridor was resubordinated to the military command.  It was

 4     unthinkable that somebody would take any action that was not ordered to

 5     him by military commander.  That is perfectly clear.  And I believe that

 6     it must be the same in all armies of the world.  How -- can you imagine

 7     that somebody conducts a military operation and that somebody of a lower

 8     rank decides about the use of personnel and materiel?  It would be

 9     impossible to do.

10        Q.   Yes.  First of all, apart from your military service --

11             JUDGE HALL:  Ms. Korner, it seems that this is going to be --

12     take some time to resolve, so we may as well take the break --

13             MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes --

14             JUDGE HALL:  -- now and return in 20 minutes.

15             So we go into closed session.

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 25571

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MS. KORNER:

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm not going to deal with your last answer at this stage

 4     because I'm going to come back to the whole question of the relationship

 5     between the military and the special police later.

 6             Can I just repeat, however, please, sir, that it would be much

 7     faster if you would simply answer the question I ask as shortly as

 8     possible.  And can I point out to you that Mr. Krgovic has another

 9     opportunity to ask you further questions when I have finished.

10             Now, I want -- before I go back to the topic that I started on,

11     namely, your meetings with the Defence, can we deal with Mr. Markovic.

12             MS. KORNER:  Can we have on the screen, please, P1077.

13             Your Honours, it wasn't on my list, but Mr. Krgovic doesn't

14     object to me showing this.  It's one of the charts.

15             And it's in the book that Your Honours have.

16             Is there a problem?  It seems to be taking a long time to load.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             MS. KORNER:  And we can probably put it in Sanction if it's a

19     real problem.

20             Now what's going on?  All right.  Do you want us to put it in

21     Sanction?

22             All right.  I understand, Your Honours, there is a problem.

23             Can we put this in Sanction?  Thanks.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MS. KORNER:  All right.  That seems to be a problem as well.

Page 25572

 1     This document obviously causes huge problems all round.

 2             Can we try putting it on the ELMO?  Perhaps that's the easiest.

 3             The old-fashioned way always was the best:  Give the witness a

 4     bundle.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             MS. KORNER:  Do Your Honours have any photo -- picture on the

 7     screen?  Does anybody have anything?  Does anybody have a picture on the

 8     screen?  No.  That's what I thought.

 9             What's wrong with the ELMO now?

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             MS. KORNER:  All right.  I gather it doesn't seem the ELMO is

14     working as well.  We seem to have come to a total standstill.  Can I -- I

15     think the best thing is - the witness can see it, anyhow - rather than

16     waste any more time on this, could the witness just be handed the

17     document.

18        Q.   What you're looking at, sir - is that right? - is a chart of the

19     positions and personnel within the CSB Banja Luka in 1992.  Can you

20     confirm that?

21        A.   Just a minute.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Is there a copy available for the interpreters?

23             MS. KORNER:  No.  Because I thought it was going to come up on

24     the screen.  Oh, lord.

25             Your Honours, I'm -- we have a request -- well, we seem to have

Page 25573

 1     got something up on one of the screens.  Can you put that ... I think if

 2     we try and go back to Sanction that we should have that so everybody can

 3     see it.

 4             Yes.  Yes, yes.  Yes, we -- success; we have a document.

 5        Q.   All right.  Can you confirm, please --

 6             MS. KORNER:  Can we just bring the document down slightly.  No,

 7     down.  Thank you.  And for some reason it's in black and white in

 8     e-court, which I don't quite understand, but never mind.

 9        Q.   That shows Stojan Zupljanin as chief of the CSB and then his

10     secretary, Ms. -- Mrs. Komljenovic.  Is that correct, sir?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you know his secretary, Mrs. Komljenovic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Then we see that Mr. Jahic was the deputy chief until he was

15     replaced by Djuro Bulic; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And then can we see, please, the department for police affairs.

18             MS. KORNER:  Can we bring that up, please.

19        Q.   Mr. Markovic; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So Mr. Markovic was, in effect, the third-most high-ranking

22     officer, police officer, in the CSB Banja Luka, wasn't he?

23        A.   Well, he is in the third line.  All these four positions below

24     are on an equal footing.  Stevan Markovic, Milorad Djuric, Drago Rakovic

25     are all chiefs of sections.

Page 25574

 1        Q.   Yes.  But in --

 2        A.   And that's the third wrung on the ladder.

 3        Q.   Yes --

 4        A.   From the top.

 5        Q.   Yes, I agree.  But of the four, as it were, sections on that

 6     line, it was the department for police affairs which was the most

 7     important and, indeed, the largest, wasn't it?

 8        A.   Well, I don't know exactly anymore.  I believe it had the most

 9     policemen.  But as far as importance is concerned, the criminal

10     investigation police section was equally important.  They dealt with the

11     important affairs.  I believe the two sections were equal in

12     significance.

13        Q.   All right.

14        A.   With the distinction that these four men were on an equal footing

15     in the collegium, Markovic and Djuric and Dukic and Spahic and

16     Pageltija [phoen] and Mirko Bojic and Bojnovic [as interpreted].  When

17     you convene a session of the collegium, they sat around a round table and

18     spoke to each other as equals.  They were all members of the collegium,

19     including Drago Rakovic.

20        Q.   But the point - it's a very small and simple point I want to

21     make, sir - is that to describe Mr. Markovic as the assistance to

22     Colonel Stevilovic is a complete misdescription of his actual position,

23     isn't it?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  No, you've given us the explanation.

Page 25575

 1             Thank you very much.  That's all I want to ask you about that.

 2             MS. KORNER:  Can I have that --

 3        Q.   I want to go back, please, to where it seems a long time ago I

 4     started off, and that's your meetings with the Defence.  And it's been

 5     pointed out to me that I may not have established exactly when was your

 6     last phone call with Mr. Zupljanin.

 7             When was the last time you spoke personally to Mr. Zupljanin on

 8     the phone?

 9        A.   Well, the last time when I personally spoke to him on the phone,

10     it was in January or February.

11        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... of this year?

12        A.   This year.

13        Q.   Right.

14        A.   I mean, I can't be precise, but at the moment when I met with

15     Mr. Krgovic, I know it was all in this year or the end of last year, all

16     these talks with the Defence team.  First there was Bojic, then I met

17     with Krgovic, and then I had another two meetings, discussions, about how

18     I would be appearing and such.

19        Q.   And can we take it that there appear to have been a number of

20     meetings, at least three - four, in fact - one with Bojic and three with

21     Mr. Krgovic?

22        A.   Two with Mr. Krgovic, I think.  And with Bojic, the last time we

23     typed up this paper that we refused discussions with the OTP.  That's a

24     statement I gave with him.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... first there was -- a moment

Page 25576

 1     ago you said:

 2             "First there was Bojic, then I met with Mr. Krgovic, and then I

 3     had another two meetings, discussions, about how I would be appearing and

 4     such."

 5             So those further two meetings, were those with Mr. Krgovic or

 6     Mr. Aleksic?

 7        A.   I don't know who Aleksic is.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 25577

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25578











11 Pages 25578-25582 redacted. Private session.















Page 25583

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Korner, are you still on the questions who

 6     the witness met with before testifying?  Or are you going to ...

 7             MS. KORNER:  I'm going to another subject, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Then I would like to clarify something first.

 9             In the -- in the transcript, the name of the investigator that

10     was an ex-colleague from Banja Luka CSB was Bojanovic, wasn't it?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bojinovic.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Bojinovic.  Okay.  I saw the name on the chart.

13             But then at page 54:16, 54:19, 21, and 25, I think that same man

14     suddenly becomes Bojic.  And the confusion starts probably at 53:18,

15     where Bojinovic and Bojic are both mentioned.  But I think that at

16     forty -- at 54:16, 19, 21, and 25 it should be Bojanovic.  We are there

17     still dealing with the person the witness met with on the -- as

18     investigator on the Krgovic -- on Zupljanin's team; right?

19             MS. KORNER:  Your Honour, I'll let the witness answer, but --

20     because -- but I believe that Mr. Bojic also at some stage was the

21     investigator for the Defence.  It's unfortunate that the two have very

22     similar names, so it may be that the witness --

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the two were -- and the two were colleagues

24     in Banja Luka CSB then.

25             Okay.  Mr. Witness, could you answer that?  Were Mr. Bojinovic

Page 25584

 1     and Mr. Bojic both investigators for the Zupljanin team you met?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of any Bojic as a

 3     member of the team.  I know that he was an employee of the CSB, but I

 4     never had any contact with him.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So then I suppose we should correct the

 6     transcript.  Thank you.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 8        Q.   So, sir, throughout you've been referring to Mr. Bojinovic, not

 9     Mr. Bojic; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 25585

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25586











11 Pages 25586-25595 redacted. Private session.















Page 25596

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Closed session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 25597

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, it's obviously not possible to

 8     produce overnight a full B/C/S transcript of this interview.  And, as I

 9     say, it's proving a negative.  In other words, as I've put on a number of

10     occasions: You did not say you were a member of the special police.

11             Now, of course, we are dependant on the English translation.  But

12     the point that I want to make is, for example, can I take a very short

13     example, which is one of the ones I will get translated:  He's asked at

14     page 19 of the interview about Ljuban Ecim.

15             "Did you know him personally?

16             "Yes.

17             "How did you know him?  Did he ever come from the police or

18     military background?

19             "The police.  He was with the police background, but he finished

20     reserve officers' school in Zadar.

21             "Did you -- so as a police officer, did you ever work with

22     Ljubic?

23             "Yes."

24             At that stage, it's fair to say, a break then took place.  But at

25     no stage did he ever say, as one might expect him, we suggest, to say:

Page 25598

 1     Yes, I worked with him in the special police.  And then we go on to he's

 2     asked a number of questions about what happened in Kotor Varos, and

 3     throughout, although he talks about the special police, he never actually

 4     says: I was a member.

 5             Now, as I say, it's clearly import-- it's either that the Defence

 6     agree it, which is a way of doing it.  We can't force them to, unless

 7     Your Honours order it, and I don't imagine Your Honours --

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Which we don't propose to.  Indeed Mr. Krgovic's

 9     response to your invitation was, to my mind, quite predictable.

10             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  I know.  But Your Honours could actually make

11     an order.  I mean, Mr. Krgovic can read the English.

12             Failing that, all we can do is I can put various portions to him,

13     which we can get translated this afternoon -- translated.  I'm sorry, I'm

14     not going -- talking about translated.  We'll actually get somebody to

15     type up the original -- from the tape, the original language, what he

16     says.  And deal with selected portions.

17             JUDGE HALL:  It seems to me that there is no ideal solution to

18     this problem.  Because in addition to the usual argument which would

19     exist if we weren't dealing with the translation issue, as you have

20     indicated, of proving that -- how come given the opportunity you didn't

21     say this, which is really the foundation of an argument, that the --

22     the -- it may be that the -- in the interests of time, that the only

23     practical way is, as you indicated earlier, you might be inviting the

24     Chamber to do, to admit the previous transcript.  And that then being an

25     exhibit, you would have a foundation on which to construct an argument.

Page 25599

 1             Secondly, as a supplement to this, the -- what you have just

 2     indicated, apart from the general attack which you would wish to put

 3     yourself in a position to make on his testimony, if there are specific

 4     instances in which I expect that you would argue, that he had the

 5     opportunity to volunteer this, if that could be translated so that

 6     when -- if the witness is taxed with these specific incidents when he

 7     returns tomorrow, and, as he has indicated, it may be a question of a

 8     translation issue, then he would have the opportunity to seek to clarify

 9     it.

10             It seems to me that that is the most practical and efficient way

11     time-wise in terms of dealing with it.  As I said, there's no ideal

12     solution to this problem.

13             MS. KORNER:  No.  But, Your Honour, the most efficient is the one

14     that I suggested.  That rather than waste any more time over this, I

15     simply, because I -- that's the point I want to make, I ask for this

16     document to be admitted as an exhibit and for Your Honours to make your

17     own decision about this.  That's the quickest way.  And then I even ask

18     no further questions.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may reply briefly.

21             I would opt for the opposite approach.  I think the Prosecutor

22     should point out the section of the interview where the witness was asked

23     whether he was a member of the special police and the witness omitted to

24     answer.

25             So it should be pointed out very clear.  And maybe at that --

Page 25600

 1     that way we can arrive at the solution to this problem.  Maybe not show

 2     where the witness said or didn't say that he was a member, but where he

 3     was asked about it.

 4             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honours, I can very quickly come to the

 5     bit that it would have taken me a bit of time.

 6             Can we have page 56 up on the screen.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I would point out that we are three minutes past the

 8     time that we should rise, but quickly, Ms. Korner.

 9             MS. KORNER:  Yes.  Yes, yes.  So -- for some reason, the e-court

10     version is different.

11             Could we have a look, please, at 57.

12             No.  All right, Your Honours.  We can't do it because for some

13     reason the version I've got has got different page numbers from the one

14     that's in e-court, so perhaps I can do it tomorrow.

15             But, Your Honour, what I think I will do is get that part

16     translated tomorrow -- for tomorrow, and then put it to him, and then

17     I'll ask Your Honours to admit it.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry, Mr. Cvijetic, you wanted to say something on

19     this before we break?

20             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, very briefly.

21                           [B/C/S on English channel]

22             MR. CVIJETIC:  ... lose sight of the right of the accused to see

23     the document in the language they understand.  Understand the discussion.

24             MS. KORNER:  No.  I'm afraid it's got nothing to do with the

25     accused.  This is the witness.  The -- they have called this witness.

Page 25601

 1     The accused have no more rights about this one.  If they -- the tapes

 2     have all been provided to the Defence, and the accused can listen to the

 3     tapes if they really want it.

 4             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Yes.  But you are suggesting that

 5     you want the interview admitted as an exhibit.  Isn't it then fair to the

 6     accused to receive the document in a language they understand and that

 7     we, who instruct the accused, also see it in our language, if you are

 8     raising the possibility of exhibiting it?

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

10             We will rise and reconvene tomorrow morning.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of

13                           November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.