Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25958

 1                           Thursday, 17 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-08-91-T,

 7     the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and Stojan Zupljanin.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Good morning to

 9     everyone.  May we have the appearances, please.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, good morning, Your Honours.

11     Alex Demirdjian for the Prosecution with Belinda Pidwell and

12     Sebastiaan van Hooydonk.

13             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

14     Appearing for Mico Stanisic, Slobodan Cvijetic, Ms. Deirdre Montgomery

15     and Annemarie McNulty.

16             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

17     Aleksandar Aleksic and Miroslav Cuskic appearing for Stojan Zupljanin

18     Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             Before the witness comes back into court, can we go back into

21     private session, please.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 25959

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  And if there are no preliminary matters, may the

12     usher please escort the witness back to the stand.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Bubic, good morning to you.  You may resume your

15     seat.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE HALL:  And before Mr. Demirdjian continues his

18     cross-examination, I remind you that you are still on your oath.

19                           WITNESS:  OBRAD BUBIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Demirdjian: [Continued]

24        Q.   Mr. Bubic, I would like to ask you a clarification.  Yesterday,

25     at page 25889, you said that in early 1992 you were the owner of a chain

Page 25960

 1     of boutiques, is that right, in Kotor Varos?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What was the name of that chain of boutique, please?

 4        A.   Sloboda.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you remember yesterday I showed you a

 6     document dated the 8th of June, 1992, which was the appointment of

 7     Mane Tepic, do you remember that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You expressed your views, I believe, that there was a problem

10     with the document.  So we did a little bit of digging around.  I'd like

11     to show you a series of five appointments in relation to your light

12     brigade.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we first have up number 20366, please.

14        Q.   Now, I want you to look at each of these five appointments, one

15     by one, and reserve your comments for the end.  Look at them as a

16     package.  So the first one on the screen --  yes.  The first one on the

17     screen should be in relation to Andjelko Stanic, do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And did you know Mr. Stanic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And was he a member of your brigade?

22        A.   Yes, he was.

23        Q.   Well, and we see that the date is 8th of June, 1992, signed by

24     Mr. Novakovic.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we have the next one which is 20367, please.

Page 25961

 1        Q.   20367 is in relation to Zivko Krsic, commander for moral and

 2     guidance.  Did you know Mr. Krsic?

 3        A.   I knew Krsic well.  He was my neighbour.

 4        Q.   Very well.  And it says here that he is commander for moral and

 5     guidance.  On the 8th of June, he was appointed and it signed by

 6     Dusan Novakovic.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we see the other one, 20368.

 8        Q.   The next one is for Mr. Nenad Jerkovic, commander for logistics.

 9     You knew Mr. Jerkovic.  You told us that yesterday, didn't you?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   And he is also appointed on the 8th of June, and it is signed by

12     Mr. Dusan Novakovic.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to 20369, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Novakovic, yes.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

16        Q.   Now, 20369 is in relation to Slavica Jerosimovic, chief of

17     quartermaster service, and he, too, is appointed on the

18     8th of June, 1992, and is it signed by Dusan Novakovic.  Did you know

19     Jerosimovic?

20        A.   Mrs., I knew her by sight.

21        Q.   And the last one is 20370.  And 20370 is in relation to a man by

22     the name of Zeljko Tesic, chief of the medical service.  Do you know

23     Mr. Tesic?

24        A.   Yes, he is a physician and still works in Kotor Varos.  He has

25     his private practice there.

Page 25962

 1        Q.   Right.  So, sir, yesterday you suggested that there was an error

 2     with the appointment of Mr. Tepic.  I put it to you that, in fact, these

 3     documents are all correct.  You simply were not involved in the creation

 4     process of these appointments.  Would that be right?

 5        A.   Let me tell you, I'm not contesting the correctness of these

 6     documents.  What I'm saying is that I'm not aware of them.  I don't know

 7     anything about them.  As far as I know, the brigade on that date was not

 8     established yet.  This is what I know.  This is my personal knowledge

 9     because I met Commander Novakovic only when I was released from prison.

10     I had never met him before I was taken prisoner.  So it doesn't make too

11     much sense to me.  Maybe this did happen on the 8th of June, I'm not

12     denying even that, but maybe that was done for some future period, for

13     something that would be done with a delay.  In any case, this is

14     something that I'm absolutely not familiar with.

15        Q.   And you told us yesterday that you too were mobilised on the

16     8th of June; is that right?

17        A.   On the 8th or on 9th I said.  I believe that it was on the 8th.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I would ask that the series of

19     these five appointments -- yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.  I had thought that

21     the issue was the stamp, and so my question goes to the witness:  If you

22     can recognise the number on the stamp, because I notice that on each of

23     the documents that we've just seen the stamp carries the same number, and

24     I think it was your suggestion yesterday that this number did not belong

25     to the unit that you knew.

Page 25963

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  Correct.

 2             JUDGE HARHOFF:  So now what?

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I ask for the witness to

 4     remove his headphones for a minute.

 5             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Yes.  Mr. Bubic, can you take off your

 6     headphones, just for a seconds.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, we did some backgrounds checks and

 8     it may be that we'll been in a position to address this with the witness

 9     who has a bit more knowledge about military issues, if there is any

10     occasion in the near future.  Our information is that this is an old JNA

11     stamp, and, indeed, as the witness indicated yesterday the new stamps

12     bore a four-digit code starting with 7.  The one we saw yesterday was

13     7001, I believe.  We do have other documents showing stamps later on in

14     1992 of this brigade when it changed, but our information is this is an

15     old JNA stamp with a five-digit code.  So at this stage what I'm

16     proposing to do is to tender the appointment of Mr. Tepic who is the

17     commander of his brigade, the one that I showed yesterday, along with

18     these five appointments.  The point being that this witness is being

19     called to talk about the activities of his brigade and his evaluation of

20     the numbers of armed forces of the other side and we are saying that

21     these documents go to his credibility.  He is too much of a low-level

22     witness.  He does not know exactly the composition of his own command, of

23     his own brigade.  And, in fact, second point is this document shows that

24     a number of people were appointed a few days before the take-over in

25     Kotor Varos and that this brigade was being formed during the month of

Page 25964

 1     June, and, indeed, it was established that as we saw from documents in

 2     the month of July.

 3             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Can I just ask the Defence if there's any issue

 4     from your side regarding the stamp.

 5             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, as you have said it

 6     yourself, I notice that the stamp is the same on the six or seven

 7     documents and that the number of the decision in the heading is also the

 8     same.  My objection with regard to the -- today's part of the

 9     cross-examination by the Prosecutor is this:  He asked the witness

10     whether he is familiar with these people and whether they were members of

11     the brigade, and the witness confirmed all that.  And I'm not contesting

12     that.  However, my learned friend from the Prosecution did not clarify

13     with the witness whether the witness knew that all those persons, all

14     those individuals on the 8th of June started discharging duties to which

15     they were appointed according to these decisions.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We asked the witness to remove his headphones,

17     but clearly he can understand what is being said right now.

18             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Really, that was not my intention.

19     You are absolutely right.  I agree that my learned friend can use this

20     line of questioning in order to challenge the witness's credibility.

21     However, he explained yesterday what he knew and what he thought about

22     the documents shown to him yesterday.  However, as for today's set of

23     documents, the Prosecutor has not exactly clarified what I have just

24     mentioned.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 25965

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Demirdjian --

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  -- we see the logic in your application in terms of

 4     the document from yesterday --

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE HALL: -- ignoring for the moment the illogicality of the

 7     witness not being able to speak to it from his own knowledge, but we see

 8     the purpose for which you wish to tender that, but we don't see why these

 9     additional documents need similarly to come in.  It seems to us that the

10     point that you are making would be adequately made by allowing the --

11     yesterday's document in.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I agree, Your Honours.  I agree.  So if we just

13     tender 65 ter 20340, that should suffice.

14             JUDGE HALL:  So that's -- that document is admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2418, Your Honours.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE HALL:  And the witness may replace his head phones.

17             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honour, I may be mistaken,

18     but I believe that the document that was shown to the witness yesterday

19     was not admitted into evidence, at all, yesterday on the appointment of

20     Mane Tepic.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's what we were doing right now.  Yes,

22     that's what just happened.

23        Q.   Sir, could we also have up 65 ter 20348, which was the list I

24     showed you yesterday, tab 39.  Do you remember this list that I showed

25     you yesterday, sir, which had members of your unit.  You named two men,

Page 25966

 1     Asim Aganbegovic and Adis Hadziselimovic, as members of the Croat and

 2     Muslim community who remained in the TO and later on the VRS.  Now, let

 3     me ask you, before coming to court yesterday, had you seen this document

 4     before?

 5        A.   No, I did not.

 6        Q.   Because you told us that you spent a number of days in proofing

 7     with Mr. Aleksic.  Was this document not shown to you at all?

 8        A.   No, the document wasn't shown to me.

 9        Q.   If you look at the far right, you see the ethnicity of the

10     commanding officers of this unit.  They are all Serbs on the first page.

11     If you go to the second page, it also says Serbian for every one of them.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we can go to page 2.

13        Q.   It all says Serbian.  They are all Serbs.  And if we go to the

14     last page, page 3 in the B/C/S version, we see two who are not marked as

15     Serbs.  And these are the very two same persons that you named yesterday.

16     One is marked as a Yugoslav and one actually does not even have an

17     ethnic -- and then ethnicity.  So there are 57 names on this list and

18     only two of them are not Serbs, and these are the same two that you told

19     us yesterday.  So are you sure you've never seen this document before?

20        A.   I'm sure.

21        Q.   Very well.  Now, yesterday you also told us that in the reserve

22     police there were quite a few Muslims and Croats who remained after the

23     take-over; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, you gave us two names and you say you were not able to give

Page 25967

 1     us any other names.  In your view, how many Muslims and Croats remained

 2     in the reserve police?  You don't have to give us a precise number.

 3        A.   I can't give you a precise number because I don't know it, but I

 4     believe that there were four or five Muslims, approximately, and slightly

 5     fewer Croats.

 6        Q.   And did you know, ballpark figure, how many reserve police

 7     officers were there in Kotor Varos?

 8        A.   I really don't know.

 9        Q.   If I told you that there was 265 reserve police officers in

10     Kotor Varos, would you agree with that?

11        A.   I can't agree with you because I don't know.  I can't agree with

12     something that I don't know.

13        Q.   Fine.

14        A.   Moreover, that number sounds a bit exaggerated.

15        Q.   Very well.  Now, yesterday, you told us at page 25925 that during

16     your captivity Sprzo told you that on the left bank of the Vrbanja

17     there's more than 1.000 of them.  When you meant "of them," you meant of

18     non-Serb forces, and you added that you really doubted that number.  Do

19     you remember telling us in that in court yesterday?

20        A.   Yes, I remember.  I thought that they tried to daunt me with

21     bragging about their forces, because objectively I had not encountered

22     that many of them, but where I was, in the places where I was -- which

23     means I was not along the entire length of the bank of the river that was

24     controlled by the Muslim forces, but in the places where I was and where

25     I was passing through, I must have seen over 200 of them.

Page 25968

 1        Q.   Now, it is an accepted fact in this case that on the day of the

 2     take-over - the take-over took place, in fact, on the 11th of June - and

 3     that this take-over took place without any resistance; isn't that right?

 4        A.   As far as I know, that was the case.  It is right.

 5        Q.   And you told us that you were guarding buildings throughout the

 6     month of June.  Was guarding buildings your only assignment, sir?

 7        A.   That was my only assignment, my exclusive assignment.

 8        Q.   Now, can you tell us which buildings were you guarding exactly?

 9        A.   I was in the Bregovi neighbourhood in front of high-rise building

10     called Kocka 1, 2, and 3.

11        Q.   And the Bregovi neighbourhood, what is the distance between this

12     neighbourhood and the centre of Kotor Varos?

13        A.   I don't know if I'm the best person to ask that question.

14     There's some 500 metres between the general assembly building and the

15     very centre of town.

16        Q.   And this Kocka 1, 2 and 3, what are these buildings exactly?

17     What were you guarding exactly?

18        A.   Our task was not to allow the population to go out of the

19     buildings and we were to make sure that nobody used any weapons and

20     killed anyone.

21        Q.   So these are apartment buildings?

22        A.   Yes, residential buildings.

23        Q.   Very well.  And what were you wearing when you were guarding

24     these buildings?

25        A.   I wore a grey, olive uniform of the former

Page 25969

 1     Yugoslav People's Army.

 2        Q.   And when you say that you wanted to ensure that nobody got out of

 3     the buildings, were you, in fact, enforcing the curfew?

 4        A.   There was no curfew yet, but the people in the command of the

 5     town defence told us to guard these buildings, to make sure nobody

 6     ventured out as there was also a threat of sniper fire.  There was some

 7     soldiers moving about as well from the 22nd Brigade.  Therefore, there

 8     was always a possibility of somebody producing an incident.  There were a

 9     lot of intoxicated people, and it was best to make sure that nobody was

10     out in the street and that the people were safely in their homes.

11        Q.   What kind of a weapon did you have on you while you were

12     guarding?

13        A.   I had an automatic rifle.

14        Q.   Very well.  Now, sir, could you tell us, prior to the take-over,

15     who was the secretary for national defence in Kotor Varos?

16        A.   The aforementioned Mane Tepic.

17        Q.   And do you know a man by the name of Miro Petrusic?

18        A.   I don't know Miro Petrusic in person.  However, he was present in

19     the police station building, the same building that housed the national

20     defence department.  He was there for a short while, but I can't really

21     tell you what he was doing there.

22        Q.   Now, it is, in fact, that Mr. Petrusic arrived late, in fact,

23     early in 1992.  Did you know that he was the secretary for national

24     defence in Kotor Varos?

25        A.   I knew that he worked there but I didn't know what his duties

Page 25970

 1     were because I don't know the man.

 2        Q.   Very well.  Did you know the chairman of the national defence

 3     council, Anto Mandic?  Did you know of him?

 4        A.   I did know of him.  He was the president of the municipality of

 5     Kotor Varos up until the 11th of June.  I had never had any dealings with

 6     him, so I didn't know him personally.  I knew him by sight.

 7        Q.   Very well.  And did you know the SJB commander, Nedjeljko Maric,

 8     or did you know of him?

 9        A.   I also knew him by sight.  I used to see him around.

10        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Mandic and Mr. Maric were

11     arrested on the 11th of June, 1992?

12        A.   Well, it doesn't really matter, but I did hear of it at a later

13     date.  I can't remember exactly when.  I also knew -- no, no, no, no, I'm

14     mistaken.  That's not him.  I can't recall the name at this time.  No,

15     no, it was Sadikovic I had in mind.  No, I was mistaken.

16        Q.   That's fine, sir.  These three men you said you heard later on

17     that they were arrested, did you also hear they were beaten black and

18     blue once they were arrested?

19        A.   I don't know about that.

20        Q.   That's fine.  You told us yesterday that during the month of June

21     and July, there were negotiations for the surrender of weapons.  And that

22     these negotiations were conducted with religious officials, hodzas and

23     Catholic priests.  For reference it's page 25906.

24             So effectively, sir, your forces arrested the head of the

25     National Defence, the SJB commander and the head of the executive --

Page 25971

 1     well, the chairman of the National Council as well.  The three leading

 2     figures of the non-Serb community who, prior to the take-over, held key

 3     positions in Kotor Varos.  And then what you are telling us is that your

 4     forces were expecting to negotiate with religious officials.  Was that

 5     the situation?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat his answer.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 8        Q.   Can you just repeat what you just said, sir.  Interpreters didn't

 9     understand.

10        A.   I'm not hearing the interpretation well.  I'm having trouble with

11     my headphones.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we check that.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's fine.  It's all right now.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15        Q.   Do you need me to repeat my question?

16        A.   No, no, it's okay.

17             Yes, yes, please, if you would.

18        Q.   Sir, you told us about negotiations yesterday, during the months

19     of June and July.  And you said that these negotiations were conducted

20     with religious priests, hodzas, and Catholic priests; correct?

21        A.   Among them were also certain citizens of more prominence who

22     were -- who had some sort of authority among the people.  There were also

23     representatives of the army.  There was also Zdravko Pejic, who was

24     involved in negotiations and he performed certain duties for the MUP.

25        Q.   We understand.  But what I'm putting to you is that on the

Page 25972

 1     non-Serb side, you had arrested all the key figures of the civilian

 2     authorities.  You had arrested the head of the National Council, the SJB

 3     commander, and the chairman the National Council, the three people we

 4     mentioned earlier today, and what you are doing is you are negotiating

 5     with religious officials.  Wasn't that the situation?

 6        A.   It wasn't the religious officials who negotiations were held

 7     with, rather, it was the religious officials and citizens of renown who

 8     went to the various villages to conduct these negotiations with the

 9     people.

10        Q.   I will not belabour the point.  Sir, you were aware that non-Serb

11     civilians were arrested on the day of the take-over?

12        A.   I wouldn't agree with you fully.  I do know, or rather, I heard

13     that a surrender of weapons operation was launched and those who refused

14     to surrender weapons were brought in for interviews.  That's all I know

15     about it.

16        Q.   Your position is that anyone who did not have a weapon or who did

17     surrender was not arrested?

18        A.   Yes, I do not know of a single individual who would have been

19     arrested in that situation.

20        Q.   And you don't know of any women or elderly men who were arrested

21     either?

22        A.   That I don't know for sure.

23        Q.   Sir, during the month of June, these arrests were conducted by

24     the police and the army.  Do you remember seeing the Special Police from

25     Banja Luka during the take-over on the 11th of June?

Page 25973

 1        A.   We ordinary citizens referred to all those policemen who we

 2     didn't know and who wore camouflage uniforms as specials.  It was a

 3     novelty of sorts to see troops in camouflage uniforms.  There had been no

 4     camouflage uniforms worn by soldiers previously.  As for policemen, I

 5     wouldn't say that it was a camouflage uniform.  It was, perhaps, a

 6     version of their blue uniform.  So people would refer to all such

 7     individuals wearing that sort of uniform as specials.  So any expertise I

 8     might have in that respect is quite lacking, in fact.

 9        Q.   Now, you were telling us just before that you were guarding the

10     buildings that you mentioned during this month.  Did you see -- did you

11     know that there was a Catholic church close to your building, the

12     Kocka 1, 2, and 3?

13        A.   Of course.  It is in the immediate vicinity of the apartment

14     building where I lived -- or live, maybe some 30 or 40 metres away.  And

15     even -- I am sorry, I even took part in building the church.  I gave a

16     personal contribution for this church to be constructed.  As a neighbour

17     and acquaintance, I was on quite good terms with the priest who was

18     serving there by the name of Mato or Franjo, I can't remember.  I've

19     forgotten.

20        Q.   Now, were you there when it burned down on the 2nd of July, 1992?

21        A.   No, I wasn't there.  I was not there.

22        Q.   Was this right next to the building that you were guarding?

23        A.   Yes.  In fact, I don't know where I was on that day.  What I do

24     know is that when I returned in the afternoon hours, the church was still

25     alight.  Stories circulated that the Serbs set fire to it, and then I

Page 25974

 1     heard other stories that the Croats set it alight so that the Serbs may

 2     not use it for whatever purposes they see -- saw fit.  So I don't know to

 3     this day who is responsible for the destruction of that church.  The only

 4     thing I know is that the church was reconstructed.  It was rebuilt, and

 5     it looks just the same as it did before the war and I'm really glad about

 6     it.

 7        Q.   And in which year was it rebuilt?

 8        A.   Well, I think the construction works ended some two or three

 9     years ago, and people from all quarters gather there for various Catholic

10     festivities, and there's always a crowd of people.

11        Q.   Very well.  Sir, when you were telling us of your -- the day that

12     you were captured on the 5th of July, you told us that after the funeral

13     you were in Vrbanjci at the command.  Can you clarify for us that it was

14     the command of which unit exactly?

15        A.   You misunderstood me.  I wasn't in the command.  I was outside of

16     it in front of a cafe --

17        Q.   The command itself --

18        A.   Well, it's not the same thing, really, is it, to be in the

19     command or outside of it?  There was a catering establishment.  Let me be

20     quite clear, I never stepped foot into that catering establishment,

21     either before the war or after the war, and I really don't know what it

22     looks like.

23        Q.   That's fine, sir.  It was a probably mistake in my question, and

24     that is not the point.  The point I'm asking you right now is:  Which

25     unit was stationed at that command?

Page 25975

 1        A.   It was the command of the 22nd Brigade.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And this brigade also had a command post, you told us, in

 3     Maslovare, I believe?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.  That was in the early days, but then, and perhaps I

 5     may be mistaken in that, they either relocated the entire command from

 6     Maslovare or part of it, so we referred to that cafe as the command of

 7     the 22nd.

 8        Q.   Now, while the unit was in Maslovare, when it arrived, did you

 9     know that the commander of the unit stationed in Maslovare was

10     Slobodan Zupljanin?

11        A.   He was the commander of one battalion only at the start when they

12     got there first.  Allegedly, the 22nd, when it arrived, had the strength

13     of a battalion.  I don't know where other battalions were, if there were

14     any.  What I do know is that together with Slobodan, there was Mr. Peulic

15     there as well.  He was the commander of the brigade.

16        Q.   And do you know what, if any, relationship did

17     Mr. Slobodan Zupljanin have with Stojan Zupljanin?

18        A.   They are related.  Three times removed, I think.  I think their

19     grandfathers were brothers.

20        Q.   Very well.  Moving back to Vrbanjci, now, it is correct to say

21     that by the 5th of July when you were outside, not in the command post,

22     by this time Vrbanjci had been attacked by the Serb forces about ten days

23     prior to that?

24        A.   That's difficult for me to say now truly whom attacked whom,

25     since the Muslims were on the left bank of the Vrbanja and opened fire on

Page 25976

 1     to the population on the right bank.  And it was mixed population.  In

 2     the very centre there was Serbs and Muslims, and a bit further uphill

 3     there were Croats living.  Based on what I heard, and it was stories in

 4     the grape-vine, after several failed attempts at holding talks, a unit

 5     set out from within the 22nd Brigade supported by the Kotor police -

 6     well, at any rate, from the municipality, I don't know exactly where,

 7     with weapons, and I did mention it yesterday - and it was at that point

 8     that our forces in the area sustained major casualties.

 9        Q.   Sir, 50 civilians, non-Serb civilians, were killed on an attack

10     on the 25th of June, 1992.  Do you say that this did not happen?

11        A.   The 25th of June?

12        Q.   25th of June there was an attack on Vrbanjci by Serb forces.  You

13     are telling us you heard about it.  You didn't take part in this attack?

14        A.   I most certainly didn't take part in it.  I did hear of it,

15     though.  The attacks were more or less frequent, but this is the first

16     time I've heard of 50 people having been killed there.  It's the first

17     time.  It's not that I'm denying it.  It's possible.  It's just that I

18     don't know.  It wasn't something I was aware of.

19        Q.   So you are telling us that you did not take part in this attack?

20     That's your evidence?

21        A.   Yes, yes, I did not.

22        Q.   You also told us that this was a mixed village.  It is correct to

23     say that was predominantly inhabited by non-Serbs; do you agree with

24     that?

25        A.   Excuse me, which village are you referring to, Vrbanjci?

Page 25977

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   There were Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, all of them were

 3     represented, I'm sure.  It was -- well, it's a coincidence, but I am

 4     married to a lady from that village, and there's an entire street that is

 5     inhabited by Serbs.  And there's an odd Croat house in that street and

 6     several others --

 7        Q.   Sir, the question is not if there were Serbs, Croats and Muslims.

 8     That I agree with.  The question is:  Were you aware that it was

 9     predominantly inhabited by non-Serbs?

10        A.   Well, roughly, yes.

11        Q.   Very well.  I'll move on to the 5th of July, the event you

12     described where Colonel Stevilovic, Markovic, and Petrusic were killed,

13     where you were captured.  Now, you told us that you didn't know

14     Stevilovic on that day.  Had you heard of him before?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   You did not know what kind of activities he was involved in as

17     part of the military intelligence of the 1st Krajina Corps?

18        A.   No, I most certainly didn't.

19        Q.   So on that day when you were in Vrbanjci, you went into the car

20     with these two men you did not know anything about?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   Now, you didn't tell us where you started off on that day.  You

23     told us you travelled to Obudnjik for the funeral.  Where were you at the

24     beginning of the day?  Were you in Kotor Varos?

25        A.   I was in a hamlet of Rujka that I mentioned yesterday.  There was

Page 25978

 1     a guard stationed there, in case Sadikovic's forces were to strike from

 2     the direction of Bilice.  This is some 200 metres from my flat, as the

 3     crow flies.  And then in the morning, I went to Maslovare and then

 4     attended the funeral and went back to Kotor Varos.

 5        Q.   The question was:  Where were you at the beginning of the day.

 6     So to make sure we are able to finish your testimony today, I will ask

 7     you to just focus on the question, and if I need additional details, I

 8     will ask you.  Can we agree on that?

 9             So, Rujika, that's in the north of Kotor Varos; isn't that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  So you travelled from Rujika all the way to Maslovare and

12     you had to pass through Vrbanjci on your way, is that right, on the main

13     road?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And what were you wearing that day?

16        A.   The grey, olive JNA uniform.

17        Q.   Okay.  So just to recapture your evidence, you went from Rujika

18     in the north of Kotor Varos, you travelled all the way to Maslovare, you

19     went to Obudnjik for the funeral, you then went to Vrbanjci, and from

20     Vrbanjci you ended up in Vujevica [phoen] where you were captured.  Does

21     that summarise your travel on that day?

22        A.   Yes, as I set out from Vrbanjci towards Kotor Varos, I was

23     captured.

24        Q.   Now, you told us yesterday that you asked permission the day

25     before that, on the 4th of July, to attend the funeral, and you asked

Page 25979

 1     this permission -- you asked this to Gojko Stolic; right?

 2        A.   Exactly.

 3        Q.   Very well.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Now, can we pull up 65 ter 20351, please.  It's

 5     tab 45.  Your Honours, since we only received this document which is, in

 6     fact, Mr. Bubic's book, we only received it last Thursday, we were unable

 7     to request a full translation so we were able to do a cursory review and

 8     manage to select some portions for translation.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, this is the cover page of your book; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we go to - this is going to get tricky -

12     page 5 in the English version which should be page 6 in the B/C/S

13     version.  Now, to help you out, can we zoom in to page 10 on the B/C/S,

14     the left side of the page in the B/C/S.  Bottom of -- okay.  That's fine.

15     Scroll down a little bit, please.  Very well.

16        Q.   Now, do you see on that page that you asked permission to Ziza or

17     Zivko Krsic?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Demirdjian kindly speak into the

19     microphone.  Thank you.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

21        Q.   Yes, I'll repeat my question.  I guess we have that question in.

22     So, sir, do you see that you asked permission to Zivko Krsic first?

23        A.   I don't need to see this.  I know this.  Zivko Krsic was visiting

24     the army at their century posts and along the way I heard from him that

25     the funeral would take place tomorrow in Dabovci, and I told him it would

Page 25980

 1     bode well for me to go because they were my neighbours and along the way

 2     I would visit the family in Maslovare.  He told me to come to the

 3     command, town command.

 4        Q.   Pause for a seconds.  My only question was that you asked

 5     Zivo Krsic.  Now, I want to take you too --

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we slide to page 11 in the B/C/S version and

 7     can we scroll down to -- in the English version scroll down to the bottom

 8     of that page.  Right.

 9        Q.   Do you see, sir, on that page, at the bottom of your page,

10     page 11, that Mr. Krsic warned you to not get on that road because the

11     next day on the 5th of July at 10.00 in the morning an air attack was

12     expected on Vecici?  You see that?

13        A.   Yes, I see.

14        Q.   You did not mention that yesterday, that there was an air attack

15     on Vecici on the 5th of July.  Now, despite the warning, and I understand

16     that it's in your book, you also spoke to Mr. Stolic and you decided to

17     get on that road?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   You decided to get on that road on the 5th of July.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We can put away the book for a second, and I

21     would ask that we pull up P1818 which is at tab 15A.

22        Q.   Now, sir, what I'm showing you right now is a document of the

23     1st Krajina Corps of the 15th of July, 1992.  What I'd like you to do

24     is --

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  First, we can go to the last page and see that

Page 25981

 1     it was signed by the Assistant Commander Vukelic.  Very well.  And now we

 2     can go back to page 2 in both English and B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Now, in your version, in the B/C/S version, just above the

 4     section called B, just above that, there is a paragraph that begins with

 5     the words "Na Vlasickom."

 6        A.   Yes, I see it.

 7        Q.   Now, this document says that three surprises occurred on the

 8     Vlasic plateau resulting in of the deaths of 16 MUP and four members of

 9     the 122nd Light Infantry Brigade.  There is substantial presence of HOS

10     and Green Beret formation in that area.  Now, the next sentence says that

11     many of the casualty resulted from a lack of vigilance and the relaxed

12     attitude of civilian police members as well as a lack of combat

13     discipline.  Individuals and groups entered the said dangerous areas on

14     their own initiative and conducted actions there.  Some of them wanted to

15     demonstrate the courage of Krajina and were killed for this reason.

16             Now, sir, this is exactly what happened in your case, wasn't it?

17     You knew very well on that day that in Vujevica, and this is information

18     that your command possessed, there were possible targets or ambushes, and

19     you even told us that Markovic casually said that not every bullet kills.

20     So on that day there were clear signs that this was a dangerous area and,

21     nonetheless, your car drove through; is that right?

22        A.   That's right.  But I need to explain something.  Since Mr. Krsic

23     told me that planes would do some bombing that day, on the left bank of

24     the Vrbanja river, on the right as I was travelling, I didn't see any

25     reason to fear this bombing, supposedly the road was clear and it was a

Page 25982

 1     clear road.  And the reason to visit my family and the funeral of these

 2     three young men, this was the reason, and it didn't require any

 3     particular courage on my part.

 4        Q.   Now, sir --

 5        A.   Basically, I was not a brave soldier.

 6        Q.   Sir, now, I'm going to put my next question to you and I want you

 7     to know, as I've indicated in the beginning, I do not challenge what

 8     happened to you on that day, that these three men were killed and that

 9     you were captured and you were in detention for 16 days.  I do not

10     challenge that for one minute.

11             However, in your book, you said during your captivity you found

12     that Sprzo's unit was receiving information from Serb informants.  I

13     believe in your book you call them "spies."  And that these informants

14     were updating Sprzo on a regular basis about the movement of senior army

15     officers.  Do you remember that in your book, or do you want me to pull

16     it up?

17        A.   I think I didn't write about the movements of many officers,

18     reports of their movements, but that he told me that he knew the

19     situation on our side very well and that there were people on our side

20     who conveyed this to him, and that is that's correct, but not

21     high-ranking officers.

22        Q.   Sir, you were aware that at the time after you were released

23     there were suggestions that Colonel Stevilovic, his killing was organised

24     by his own side?  Did you hear of such suggestions at the time?

25        A.   Yes, I did hear this, yes.  Perhaps that was the reason to write

Page 25983

 1     what I wrote so that the truth would finally come out.

 2        Q.   Sir, however, you were not part of the plotting of this killing,

 3     were you?

 4        A.   God forbid.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, did you know that Colonel Stevilovic, just five days

 6     before he was killed, was involved in an operation in Teslic --

 7             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] What is the basis of this

 8     question, please?  The witness said that he met them for the first time

 9     when he went into the car.  He didn't know these men beforehand.  How can

10     it be expected that the witness would know what Stevilovic meant to do

11     five days before?

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  You didn't hear the rest of my question.  Let me

13     put the question first.

14        Q.   Sir, and this is in relation, again, to my last question which is

15     what you heard after you were released.  Did you know and did you hear

16     that Stevilovic was involved in an operation in Teslic just five days

17     prior to his killing, and that this operation was aimed at arresting a

18     group of Serb soldiers and policemen known as the Mice group?  Did you

19     ever hear of this after your release?

20        A.   No, no, I never, no.

21        Q.   So in those suggestions that you heard after your release, what

22     reasons did you hear for his killing?

23        A.   No one mentioned any reasons to me, but of all the stories that I

24     heard -- one particular story that I heard was that Serbs killed him.

25     Another story was that he was betrayed by the Serbs, that some of these

Page 25984

 1     spies had reported when he would be travelling towards Kotor Varos.  The

 2     third version I heard from Sprzo while in captivity and that it wasn't

 3     meant for him, for the two of them, that they were not to be killed, that

 4     the killing was being prepared for Peulic and Zupljanin.  I did believe

 5     this somewhat later when I came out of captivity.  I also heard about

 6     Savo Tepic, that he was released, that he had gone through, that they

 7     didn't want to shoot at him, that they were waiting for Peulic and

 8     Slobodan Zupljanin.

 9             I even talked to Savo about this later, and I asked him why he

10     would do this when -- I asked him if there was room for Kotor Varos and I

11     felt very unpleasant, and at the time he said it's very dangerous and he

12     said it was better for one person to be in the car rather than two,

13     three, four five people.  If someone dies then fewer will die.  And

14     that's what I heard later.

15        Q.   That's is fine, sir.  I have one document, we have a series of

16     them, but I'll just limit myself to one.  Sir, were you aware that the

17     funeral of Mr. Stevilovic took place the day after he was killed?

18        A.   How could I know this?

19        Q.   Did you hear about it later on?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Did you know that a funeral did take place which was attended by

22     the commanding officers starting by Momir Talic and Ratko Mladic.  Were

23     you aware of that?

24        A.   No, no.  Since I didn't know about the funeral, I couldn't know

25     the other information about it, certainly not.

Page 25985

 1        Q.   I'm not going to get into the details of this, but we have in

 2     evidence the war diary of the 1st Krajina Corps which shows who exactly

 3     attended this funeral.  What I want to show you is a document at tab 34.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Which is 65 ter 20346.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, I'm sure you are aware that the chief of your army,

 6     Mr. Mladic, was taking detailed notes during war time.  I'm sure you've

 7     heard of this in the media; correct?

 8        A.   I heard about these diaries perhaps about a month ago, recently,

 9     since he has come to The Hague.  And the initial knowledge I had about it

10     was through the media, so it's quite fresh.

11        Q.   Well, sir, as I told you, we have the war diary of the first KK

12     which shows that Mr. Mladic attended this funeral.  So he was aware on

13     the same day that Mr. Stevilovic was killed.  He was aware of this fact.

14     Now, I want you to look at the notes he took during a meeting in 1994

15     with General Subotic, and what he says here two years after the event was

16     that regarding 3 and a half kilos of gold, it seems that the late

17     Colonel Stevilovic and Markovic knew about this, and this may have been

18     the reason why Stevilovic died.  Do you see this at the middle of the

19     page?

20        A.   I see it.  I see it, Subotic saying this.

21        Q.   Now, sir, this is two years after the events, after you were

22     debriefed by the military police, and it appears that in 1994 even the

23     chief of your army had doubts about who organised the killing.  So, sir,

24     I put it to you that -- and -- well, I put it to you that although Sprzo

25     and his men did execute this operation which resulted in the killing of

Page 25986

 1     the three men and your captivity, his own army took part in the

 2     organisation of his death?

 3        A.   I think that you are mistaken, sir.

 4        Q.   Very well, sir.  So your evidence is that his own side did not

 5     organise his killing?

 6        A.   Not certain.  I watched it with my own eyes, everything, and this

 7     unfortunate man, Sprzo, while I was with him there on the other side, I

 8     had come to trust him in a certain way, he would have told me this.

 9        Q.   But he didn't tell you -- just a second, please.

10        A.   He told me --

11        Q.   Just a second, please.  In your book, he did tell you that he was

12     receiving information from Serb insiders and information about movement

13     of Serb officers.  He did tell you that.

14             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Can you show this where this is

15     written in the book, can you read it please, where it's written about

16     Stevilovic and Markovic as well.  Furthermore, if I know that this part

17     of General Mladic diary has been admitted, you can call him, he is in

18     The Hague and he can tell you what he thinks.  Don't take things out of

19     context.  Getting to know the effects of the Operation Granica 94, what

20     do we know about Operation Granica 94?

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  You can deal with this --

22             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Yes, but you did not pose the

23     question properly.  You took it out of context.  You were not fair to the

24     witness.

25             JUDGE HALL:  In any event, Mr. Demirdjian, the witness's

Page 25987

 1     testimony at bottom is that he doesn't really know what the background

 2     was to this, so the whereas the Prosecution may have a theory as to what

 3     happened, how does -- where does that take us in terms of evidence?  The

 4     witness -- you are examining this witness.  He says he doesn't really

 5     know.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this witness was one of the

 7     victims who was arrested on that day.  He was part of this event.  If

 8     anything, I would expect that he would have the curiosity to know what

 9     happened, and it is in his book that there were such suggestions.  That's

10     where I was going at.  And my final conclusion was to put to him that

11     although it was organised by one side, it was executed by another.  That

12     was all I was suggesting.  And Mr. Aleksic can deal with the book, if he

13     would like to, in re-examination.  But that is not the point.  The point

14     was to show him that there were suggestions out there.  I was trying to

15     explore to see if he was aware of them.  That is all.  That is all.  So

16     if I come back to my specific question.

17        Q.   And it will be my last question before the break, sir.  What I

18     asked you specifically, I told you before I'm not challenging the fact

19     that Sprzo executed the operation per se, what I'm suggesting to you was

20     that the killing of Stevilovic, Markovic, Petrusic is not limited to the

21     operation of Sprzo that his own army took part in organising it,

22     preparing it, or, in any way, providing information to Sprzo and his men.

23     Can you agree with that?

24        A.   No, no.  One thing, during my decent captivity, I came to trust

25     Sprzo in a certain way.  He was a man to whom I opened my heart and soul,

Page 25988

 1     and if he told me that it was not meant for the generals, as he referred

 2     to them, that this was meant for Mr. Peulic and for Slobodan, then there

 3     is no doubt for -- reason for me to doubt him.  I think he was quite

 4     sincere to me.  There were moments when he was really open and sincere to

 5     me.  Therefore, had the Serb side organised it and had it gone through

 6     him on his side, he would have told me - I am confident of this - but he

 7     did not.

 8        Q.   So how do you explain that in your book you tell us that he had

 9     information from the Serb side about the movements of Serb officers?

10             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the third time,

11     Mr. Demirdjian is saying something that is not written in this book.  He

12     should show this.  The witness answered his question.  I've read the book

13     myself and there it says that Sprzo told the witness that he had

14     information, that he had information about the situation in the Serbian

15     army, the usual information.  But there is no mention of the movement of

16     officers, and the witness has said this, and now this is being repeated

17     for the third time and it's not correct.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, it appears that Mr. Cvijetic and

19     Mr. Aleksic cannot read.  Can we please go back to tab 45, please.  And

20     in e-court and in the B/C/S version -- I'll wait for it to come up.  Tab

21     45.  I apologise, 65 ter 20351.  I hope I'm relying on a proper

22     translation now.  So if we go to page 25 in e-court for the B/C/S

23     version.  On the book that should be page 48.  Yes.  Can we zoom into the

24     right side.  And in the English version it's page 7.  Scroll to the right

25     side of that page and zoom into the top paragraph.

Page 25989

 1        Q.   Do you see the paragraph, sir, where it says:

 2             "He even said that spies were mostly Serbs who do not like

 3     Slobodan nor Peulic, and he was convinced that they were informing him

 4     correctly and on a regular basis about their movement."

 5             Do you see that?

 6             MR. CVIJETIC: [Interpretation] The witness needs to read the

 7     entire paragraph.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   Very well.  So does it say, and Mr. Cvijetic --

11        A.   However, this pertains only to information about Slobodan and

12     Peulic.  He didn't mention anyone else to me that they were following

13     anyone.

14        Q.   And Slobodan and Peulic are senior Serb officers of the army;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I think this is a good time, Your Honours, for

18     the break.

19             JUDGE HALL:  So we talk the break to return in 20 minutes.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, while the witness is being brought

24     in, may I just extend my apologies to Mr. Aleksic and Mr. Cvijetic for

25     the comments I made earlier.  In the heat of the moment you say things

Page 25990

 1     that you don't necessarily mean and that I thought that that was not in

 2     my nature.  So, in any event, my apologies for the comment.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  Just for the sake of timing, Your Honours,

 6     I shouldn't be much longer, probably another half-hour.

 7        Q.   Mr. Bubic, I'd like to go back to the day of the take-over on the

 8     11th of June.  We haven't explored this topic yet with you.  Can you tell

 9     us exactly where you were on that day?

10        A.   Performing my duty as the -- the guard for those buildings in the

11     centre of the neighbourhood where I live.

12        Q.   Okay.  And is it correct to say that these buildings were

13     approximately 200 metres away from the Kotor Varos sawmill, give or take?

14        A.   You are right.

15        Q.   And while you were guarding your building, were you able to see

16     civilians being brought into the sawmill?

17        A.   Not on that day.  Sometime later, I did see groups of civilians

18     coming to the sawmill.  To the best of my knowledge, they were people

19     from the nearby locations where combat activities had already begun,

20     whether it was from this end or the other end.  I heard that the better

21     part of the population had expressed their willingness to leave

22     Kotor Varos, so rather than having to go door to door to collect these

23     individuals, the authorities informed them that they should gather in one

24     area where buses would come to pick them up.

25        Q.   Now, these people were not just gathering to pick up buses.  They

Page 25991

 1     were also detained in the sawmill; is that right?

 2        A.   They were waiting for buses.  That's the information I heard.  I

 3     didn't hear it from any officials, I heard it from ordinary people in the

 4     street.

 5        Q.   And from where you were, you didn't see people being brought into

 6     the sawmill?

 7        A.   From that area, one could not even see them being brought there

 8     because there were buildings obstructing the view.  I did see, though,

 9     individuals being brought or taken away, not groups though.

10        Q.   And is it your evidence that no one was detained in the

11     warehouses of the sawmill?

12        A.   That's not something I can state for a fact, just as I cannot

13     that this was the case, because I didn't see it for myself, but I did

14     hear what I already said, that people were gathering there for that

15     particular reason.  And I think that they spent no more than two days

16     there.

17        Q.   Very well.  And from where you were, approximately, as you say,

18     200 metres away, did you hear any beatings coming from the sawmill?

19        A.   No, no.

20        Q.   And you were, as you said earlier before, guarding this building

21     throughout the month of June?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   I'd like to move to another topic --

24             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Hold on a minute.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Judge.

Page 25992

 1             JUDGE HARHOFF:  -- because before we leave this issue, Mr. Bubic,

 2     did you, at any point, see or hear any buses coming to the sawmill?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not specifically at the

 4     sawmill.  I did know of other locations where they were coming but I

 5     didn't hear anything of the sort in relation to the sawmill.

 6             JUDGE HARHOFF:  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 9        Q.   Just one last question on this topic:  Did you see who was

10     bringing these individuals to the sawmill?

11        A.   Well, I said a moment ago that I wasn't able to see people as

12     they were brought to the sawmill.  I could see individual people being

13     taken out of buildings.  As far as I know, those people were taken to the

14     police station.  At least that is what soldiers and a policeman who was

15     there told us when we asked them where they were headed with these

16     people.  This allegedly because on that day the process of disarming

17     individuals and those who refused to surrender weapons were taken to the

18     police station for interviews.  This is the information that I had.

19        Q.   Very well.  And just to complete this, the police station itself

20     is also not too far from your building, the building you were guarding?

21        A.   Well, it wasn't far, but we were not allowed to leave the area

22     that we guarded.

23        Q.   Very well.  Moving on to something you told us on -- yesterday at

24     page 25897.  You told us that you learned of a plan to -- by the Croats

25     and the Muslims to organise a hunting lunch on Mount Borje on the 12th of

Page 25993

 1     June and they wanted to invite all prominent Serbs.  There were lists for

 2     liquidation.  You told us that yesterday.  Do you remember that?

 3        A.   This is something that I heard in captivity.  Mr. Sprzo himself

 4     told me that.  I will refrain from the vulgar terms he used in relating

 5     this story to me.  He was swearing my Chetnik mother and what was said

 6     was, "you were lucky because this had been the plan."  Truth to tell, I

 7     had long been inquiring with my friends of these events in order to

 8     arrive at some sort of relevant conclusion, but, to this day, I haven't

 9     been successful.

10        Q.   Where I come from, I would ask to strike this answer as

11     non-responsive, but I don't think we'll be doing it here.

12             Sir, the question was:  Do you remember what you said yesterday?

13     All you have to say is "Yes, I remember."  Can we agree on that?  That is

14     what you told the Court yesterday.

15        A.   I don't understand.

16        Q.   My question was to you:  Whether you remember telling us this

17     story yesterday.  That's all I asked of you.  I want you to focus your

18     answers to my question.  You said that to the Court yesterday, yes or no?

19     Yes?  Very well.  Now --

20        A.   Very well, very well.

21        Q.   You don't know if this information is true, do you?

22        A.   I don't.

23        Q.   Right.  Now, you told us then when you were released you were

24     debriefed by the military police.  This was in July 1992.  Do you

25     remember that?

Page 25994

 1        A.   I was not debriefed by the police in July, it was later, because

 2     two hours after I was released, I went to Banja Luka for treatment, for

 3     medical treatment.  So I returned in the first ten days of August.  It

 4     could have been early August, therefore, that the military police

 5     debriefed me.  And it was in Banja Luka that I was debriefed, but I can't

 6     remember the date.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we just pull up tab 16B which is

 8     65 ter 20364.

 9        Q.   This is a document from the military police in Banja Luka of the

10     21st of July, 1992.  It is an Official Note relating to the events you

11     told us about.  If you look at the first paragraph, it says:

12             "Following checks made on the ground, information obtained from

13     the reconnaissance patrols, and interviews conducted with a number of

14     people, and in particular with Obrad Bubic from Kotor Varos, regarding

15     the multiple murders committed on 5 July, the following has been

16     established:"

17             So, sir, does this document refresh your memory, it may have

18     been, in fact, in July?  I allow that the passage of time may have

19     affected your memory in that sense, but it appears that you were, in

20     fact, seen in July?

21        A.   Excuse me, I misunderstood you a moment ago.  My understanding

22     was that you had asked me about the debriefing by the military police in

23     Kotor Varos because I wasn't in Kotor Varos at the time, and it is true

24     that I was debriefed in Banja Luka.

25        Q.   Very well.

Page 25995

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We can put that document away.

 2        Q.   Now, you were debriefed on that day.  You told us that you were

 3     also debriefed in Kotor Varos.  You provided a signed statement in 1995

 4     and you also published a book in 2004.  Now, what seems to me a bit

 5     surprising, sir, is that this piece of information that there was a plot

 6     to kill prominent Serbs on Mount Borje, which appears to be an important

 7     piece of intelligence information, does not appear in any of the

 8     documents referring to the events that you went through, not this

 9     Official Note, not your book, not your statement in 1995.

10             So what I'd like to ask you is:  Did anybody refresh your memory

11     in relation to this piece of information?

12        A.   No, I've been aware of this information throughout.  Bearing in

13     mind the fact that it was insignificant when it comes to my book where I

14     wrote of my own personal knowledge and suffering, I didn't pay much

15     attention to it and I heard it from people who belonged to the opposite

16     side.

17        Q.   Now, sir, your book is about 175 pages and includes a lot of

18     detail.  Your statements and your debriefings were given to military

19     police, and this is part of the security organs in the army.  Wouldn't

20     you say that this is an important piece of information, the plot to

21     assassinate prominent Serbs in Kotor Varos?  This is something that you

22     would have, at the time, informed the military police?

23        A.   Well, to be quite frank, I don't know what moved me not to tell

24     this story, but after all, I was writing about my own golgotha, about my

25     own ordeal and not that of others in the municipality of Kotor Varos.

Page 25996

 1     Other than that, I did discuss this issue extensively with my friends.

 2        Q.   But you didn't inform the military police?

 3        A.   No, I didn't inform anyone.

 4        Q.   Okay.  On a slightly different topic, sir, when did you arrive in

 5     The Hague exactly?

 6        A.   On Saturday morning.

 7        Q.   Saturday morning.  And when did you first meet --

 8        A.   No, no, Friday.

 9        Q.   Friday.  And when did you first meet with representatives of the

10     Defence team?

11        A.   On that same day, in the afternoon, I think.

12        Q.   On Friday?

13        A.   Yes, I think it was on the same day in the afternoon.

14        Q.   Did you meet them again on Saturday?

15        A.   I met up with Mr. Aleksic, and Aleksic, Mr. Krgovic and I had

16     lunch on several occasions.

17        Q.   This was on Saturday and also on Sunday?

18        A.   Both on Saturday and Sunday.

19        Q.   And on Sunday you had also lunch and dinner with them?

20        A.   Well, to be quite frank, I don't remember.

21        Q.   When you met with them, did you tell them about this event of the

22     12th of June, or not the events, but what you heard about a plot to

23     assassinate prominent Serbs?  Did you tell them at that time?

24        A.   I believe I did, yes.

25        Q.   And give or take, can you tell us how many hours you spent with

Page 25997

 1     them on Saturday and on Sunday?

 2        A.   An hour or two, including lunch or dinner.

 3        Q.   That seems like a very short lunch, sir.  Did you spend one or

 4     two hours each day or in total?

 5        A.   On each of these days.

 6        Q.   And did you go through the topics that you would be discussing in

 7     court?

 8        A.   Well, generally, yes.

 9        Q.   Generally.  Were you asked at any point to provide additional

10     clarification on what you had said before to them?

11        A.   No.  No, in fact, I did tell Mr. Aleksic not to burden me with

12     these issues overly since I was going to discuss them in court anyway.

13     To be quite honest, I do -- I am at my best if I don't discuss these

14     issues.  I feel better.  And if I may add, I never re-read the book after

15     I finished writing it.  I simply want these things to slip my mind.  I

16     don't want to remind myself of these events and misfortunes.

17        Q.   Very well.  And one last question on this topic:  Was it on

18     Saturday that you mentioned the issue of the plot to kill prominent Serbs

19     on the 12th of June?

20        A.   I don't remember which day it was.

21        Q.   Was there any day that you just had lunch and dinner and didn't

22     talk about these events at all?

23        A.   Yes, I think so.

24        Q.   Which day was that?

25        A.   I can't remember.

Page 25998

 1        Q.   Sir, yesterday at page 25926, you told us that Muslims and Croats

 2     started moving out of Kotor Varos, that you were present during their

 3     departure.  Now, when you say moving out, did they move out willingly?

 4        A.   It's a very difficult answer to give.  To have anybody move from

 5     an area that is their native area is very difficult, but people realise

 6     that there was a war on and thought that they would be better off

 7     elsewhere.  So based on what I know, they asked to leave the area of the

 8     municipality of Kotor Varos.

 9        Q.   And these buses were generally convoys going towards Travnik; is

10     that right?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   Now, sir, in September one such convoy was leaving Kotor Varos

13     and heading towards Travnik, and do you remember halting a bus and taking

14     it towards Celinac, towards a school in Celinac to identify people on the

15     bus?  Do you remember that?

16        A.   I do have a recollection but not of that situation.  I received

17     an order from the corps command, via my command, that I should be the one

18     to have a look at the column of people leaving Kotor Varos before they

19     boarded buses in the local commune of Zabrdje and that was the only

20     locality where I witnessed this situation.  My task was to have a look at

21     these individuals and identify among them those who tortured me, if any

22     of them were, and to see if among them were individuals who used to have

23     weapons and were on the other side.

24             I spent the entire day seeing that column off.  Fortunately, I

25     didn't recognise any of the individuals that the military security branch

Page 25999

 1     in Banja Luka was interested in.  I met quite a few friends that I

 2     greeted.  I even met a neighbour, a lady neighbour who used to live in my

 3     building, Mila or Nena with an odd sounding family name, Zaklan, which

 4     means slaughtered in B/C/S, whose husband had died before the war, and I

 5     remember seeing this woman who used to be a proper lady and with such

 6     demeanour and when I saw her she had two odd pairs of shoes.  One was

 7     brown and the other black.  And I asked her about her sons and she said

 8     that she had to leave her elder son back in the woods whereas she was

 9     taking the other son along.  She told me, "Obrad, Obrad, by God, please

10     give us some bread, if there's any to be found."  At that point, a

11     vehicle, driving in the opposite direction from Celinac, appeared.  It

12     was a van taking bread to Kotor Varos, and I pulled it over and took a

13     sack with some 12 or 13 breads in it, gave that sack to her, and we

14     parted ways, tearful both of us.

15             And some two or three years ago --

16        Q.   Sorry to interrupt you, sir.  I mean, I know that these are very

17     important issues to you, but I must focus your attention, again, to the

18     question.  The question was about a bus that you halted and took towards

19     a school in Celinac.  Now, these details that you provided us may be of

20     some interest, but I want you to focus, again, your answers to the

21     question.

22             Now, you say you recognised some neighbour of yours, some

23     neighbours of yours in those buses.  Now, all of these were Muslims and

24     Croats; correct?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 26000

 1        Q.   Do you remember seeing someone that you recognised by the name of

 2     Dzemalija Avdic?

 3        A.   No.  Unfortunately - I was meaning to tell you this - two or

 4     three years ago, I came by a book that the Muslims and Croats had

 5     published in Zagreb.  Among the statements contained in that book there

 6     is the statement of Dzemalija Avdic, who used to work with me.  He was a

 7     plumber in my company.  He stated that I was the one who conducted triage

 8     of people, selecting those who would be going to the free territory and

 9     those who would be sent to Manjaca.  The statement that he gave is

10     shameful and I swear by my honour that this is not true.  I never did

11     anything of the sort.

12        Q.   So you are saying that you never separated a group of men from a

13     group of women and children going towards Travnik?  Is that what you are

14     telling us?

15        A.   Not that I wasn't separating groups.  I didn't separate a single

16     person.  And that's the truth.

17        Q.   And that's your evidence?

18        A.   Yes, absolutely.

19        Q.   Very well.  Sir, when was the last time that you saw

20     Stojan Zupljanin before coming to this court?

21        A.   Well, I think it was during the war, near the very end of the war

22     in Maslovare, as he was taking either his mother or father back from a

23     medical visit.

24        Q.   So you didn't see him after the war?

25        A.   No.

Page 26001

 1        Q.   Now, sir, when there were rumours in July 1992 that you, too, had

 2     been killed in this ambush, is it correct that your brother who lived in

 3     Banja Luka called Stojan Zupljanin to go with him to identify what they

 4     thought was your body; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.

 6        Q.   And is it correct that your two families were pretty close?

 7        A.   Well, no, that's not true.  They are not close.  We are

 8     acquaintances and have been for a very long time, but our lives parted

 9     ways, in fact, if I can put it that way.  Even when it comes to family

10     visits, we never were on that sort of terms.

11        Q.   In 1992, what was your brother's occupation in Banja Luka?

12        A.   He was a driver in the Autoprevoz company in Banja Luka, Holijaz

13     [phoen] company, and he drove the Munich-Banja Luka route all the way

14     until 1993.

15        Q.   So your brother, who was a driver in Banja Luka, was able to get

16     the chief of the Security Services Centre Banja Luka to come with him to

17     identify what was thought to be your body, and you are telling us that

18     your families are not close?  Is that your evidence?

19        A.   I don't know what you mean when you say families, when you say

20     closeness.  I would -- what I would mean by that is we would be

21     socialising, having dinners together, whereas encounters lasting two or

22     three minutes where there would be an exchange of words, well, that's not

23     something that I would consider closeness.  Even when it comes to my

24     brother in Banja Luka, I see him once every month or two and I truly

25     never went to visit Stojan, nor did he me.

Page 26002

 1        Q.   Sir, you told us of a number of isolated events in early 1992,

 2     the killing of two or three people.  However, you didn't tell us when

 3     asked questions by Mr. Aleksic any stories about the killings of Muslims,

 4     for example, at the medical centre, or the killings of civilians in

 5     Vrbanjci, the shelling of Vecici.  You did not discuss the arrest of

 6     Muslims and Croats in Kotor Varos.  Are you telling us that you are not

 7     here testifying to help an old friend?

 8        A.   Your Honour, I'm here to help justice and to contribute towards a

 9     reconciliation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I never defended war crime.

10     If anybody committed a war crime, a tribunal is the best place to be

11     judged of that and to punish such persons.  So my answer to your question

12     has to be negative, sir.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's all I ask, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination?

15             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Very few things, Your Honours.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Aleksic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, when you arrived in The Hague to be

18     proofed for this testimony, did you go and were you seen by a doctor?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Just hold on a minute, please.  How many times and on what days,

21     if you remember?  When did you go to see a physician and why?

22        A.   Before I came here, I requested medical escort to this place

23     because in the month of July I contracted a very contagious infectious

24     disease, consumption, Tuberculosis, and I spent the entire month of July

25     and August in hospital.  Somebody in the Tribunal, I don't know what

Page 26003

 1     service that was, did not grant me medical escort and they told me that

 2     they had doctors here who would be able to assist me.  I consented to

 3     that, and I thanked them for that, they immediately took me to see a

 4     doctor, an anaesthesiologist.  To my astonishment and to my delight, in a

 5     way, the doctor that I saw here in Scheveningen after 20 years managed to

 6     establish that I had shrapnel in the body from the bullets that were

 7     fired into the car on the day when I was captured.  They gave me

 8     findings, they gave me X-rays, and so on and so forth.  I have quite a

 9     lot of problem with some wounds on the body.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, we've already heard all that in

11     chief.  I think [indiscernible] should control, again, the questions.

12             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Bubic, you've already told us all that.  On what days, how

14     many times did you go to see the doctor, and how much time did you spend

15     in consultation with the doctor?

16        A.   I really can't tell you on what days, but I know that I went

17     there three or four times to be examined.  I can't remember on what days,

18     unfortunately.  I only know that those were lovely people, that they took

19     very good care of me.

20        Q.   Did you have a back ache on Saturday and did I give you some

21     tablets after previous consultation with the witness and victims service

22     of the Tribunal?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Very well.  Let's now go back to something entirely different.  A

25     lot was said about Mr. Manojlo Tepic, also known as Mane.  Some documents

Page 26004

 1     were shown to you.  Do you remember, if you can tell us, when you were

 2     mobilised before you were captured in June?  Did you used to meet with

 3     Mr. Manojlo Tepic or see him around, and if you did, where was that?

 4        A.   I know Mr. Tepic personally but I never met him, not for a single

 5     time up there.

 6        Q.   During that period of time from the 8th of June to the

 7     5th of July, did you ever meet him in the command of the town defence in

 8     the place where Captain Stojic was?

 9        A.   No, I did not.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   You are welcome.

12             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] I would like to call up

13     Mr. Bubic's book in e-court again.  It is under tab 45.  We are looking

14     for page 25 in Serbian and page 7 in English.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in on page 48

19     in Serbian, the left-hand side of the monitor.  Can we zoom in on the

20     entire page, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Bubic, the Prosecutor showed you one part of the page.  One

22     part of the page has been translated.  However, I would kindly ask you to

23     slowly read for the benefit of the interpreters, to slowly read this page

24     starting with the sentence "truth be told" and read all the way to the

25     penultimate paragraph, but please do it slowly.  Be mindful of the

Page 26005

 1     interpreters as you read.  Aloud, please.

 2        A.   "Truth be told, the names of my tragically perished co-travellers

 3     is what I heard in [indiscernible] and I had already forgotten them.  He

 4     started telling he me about the operation.  This is what he called the

 5     terrible crime.  He was more than satisfied with the success of his

 6     combatants.  He was not clear how come that I had not been hit with a

 7     single bullet.  How come that I had remained alive under such heavy

 8     infantry fire.  To my question -- when asked about what we had talked

 9     about along the way, I told them that we had not spoken a word.  They

10     were very interested in finding out where they came from, with whom they

11     were and similar.

12             "Sprzo confessed to me then that we suffered the misfortune

13     accidently because the operation was organised for two strong beasts,

14     'Slobodan Zupljanin and Bosko Peulic,' who to their bad misfortune had

15     not arrived as it had been announced.  He spoke very badly about them,

16     characterising them as big war criminals and being deeply convinced that

17     soon an end would come for them, too, considering the fact that they had

18     established a great spy network on our side.  He even said that his spies

19     were mostly Serbs who didn't like Slobodan or Peulic, and he was

20     convinced that they were informing him correctly and on a regular basis

21     about their movement.

22             "In passing, he told me that only a minute or two before

23     Savo Tepic had passed by them in a Golf, but, according to him, it was a

24     pity to spoil such a big and well-planned operation just because of one

25     Sava, who they would gladly crucify for that matter, and when he says

Page 26006

 1     crucify, obviously he means crucify them like Jesus, of course."

 2        Q.   Very well.  Based on what you have just read out, and you've

 3     testified about that already, who were the targets of the operation,

 4     according to what you learned from Sprzo?

 5        A.   For Peulic and for Slobodan, they were supposed to be the targets

 6     of the operation.

 7        Q.   Did you know that Mr. Slobodan Zupljanin had been injured, that

 8     was a few days before this event, and what do you know about that?

 9        A.   I heard that he had been injured, but I'm not aware of the

10     details of that incident to this very day.  I know that he was injured on

11     the road from Vrbanjci to Kotor Varos.

12        Q.   Is that the same road that you took on that day?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. ALEKSIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I have no

15     further questions for this witness.

16             Thank you, Mr. Bubic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Well, Mr. Bubic, that brings your testimony to an

19     end.  You are now released.  We thank you for coming to the Tribunal to

20     give evidence, especially having regard to the frightening and personally

21     painful experiences that you had, the incident to which you testified.

22     And we trust that you continue to recover from those incidents, albeit

23     20 years on.  So we wish you is a safe journey back to your home.  Thank

24     you, sir.  The usher would now escort you from the courtroom, because we

25     would not be rising immediately.

Page 26007

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  The -- perhaps we better go into private session.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE HALL:  So we take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow morning

25     when the next witness on the Zupljanin list will be called.

Page 26008

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.47 a.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of

 3                           November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.