Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26440

 1                           Tuesday, 10 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone and Happy New Year, a year in which we

11     look forward to hard work in the next few months as we come to the end of

12     this 18-month, I think they said, case.

13             May we have the appearances, please.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Alex Demirdjian,

15     Joanna Korner and Sebastiaan van Hooydonk for the Prosecution.  Happy

16     New Year, indeed, to everyone in and around the courtroom.

17             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

18     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Monika Marekova, appearing

19     for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Happy New Year to everybody.

20             Thank you.

21             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic, and

22     Aleksandar Aleksic, appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24             Before we begin, I don't know if the parties have any matters to

25     raise, but the Chamber has a brief decision as follows:

Page 26441

 1             The Trial Chamber notes that the Prosecution was ordered to file

 2     its final version of the CHS database concerning the deaths of alleged

 3     victims by today.  In view of the Prosecution's latest motion on this

 4     issue, the Trial Chamber allows the Prosecution an extension of this

 5     deadline until a time to be determined in the decision on the mentioned

 6     motion.  In that decision, the Trial Chamber will further determine when

 7     the Defence should file its submissions on the final version of the CHS.

 8             Thank you.

 9             Yes, Ms. Korner.

10             MS. KORNER:  I do have a custom matters to raise, if I may.

11             The first is the question of the application to call further

12     witnesses in rebuttal in respect of the Zupljanin case.

13             Your Honours, the reason we ask for whether Your Honours are

14     going to give a decision there week is twofold:  Firstly, for planning

15     purposes; and, secondly, I have spoken to Mr. Krgovic this morning, and

16     in the light -- in the event that Your Honours do grand one or more, in

17     particular our application to call an expert in rebuttal, they're going

18     to be asking for three weeks, Your Honour, to prepare for the witnesses.

19     So I'm wondering whether there's any prospect of there being a decision

20     this week.

21             JUDGE HALL:  The short answer to that question is yes.  It is a

22     decision that we are top of and we appreciate the urgency of it, and, of

23     course, what follows from that.  Well, the scheduling will, of course,

24     follow from any decision on scheduling -- would, of course, follow from

25     what -- what the decision is.

Page 26442

 1             MS. KORNER:  Yes.

 2             Your Honours, because as I say, these the witnesses we're about

 3     to call are not likely to occupy more than this week, so that's the

 4     situation.

 5             Your Honour, the second matter is this:  We applied for

 6     protective measures for the next witness.  Your Honours, we really --

 7     before I see him this afternoon, he really would like to know, and I

 8     would like to be able to tell him, whether his protective measures have

 9     been granted.

10             JUDGE HALL:  That decision is in the process of being filed.

11             MS. KORNER:  So I will be able to tell him that this afternoon,

12     one way or another.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14             JUDGE HALL:  Yeah, the protective measures have been granted and

15     the decision, as I say, is in the process of being filed.

16             MS. KORNER:  Thank you very much, Your Honours.  Those are the

17     only matters that I wanted to raise then.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  With your leave, Your Honours, I would just like to

19     raise one matter.

20             I noticed from the -- from the announced documents of the

21     Prosecutor for this witness that, at least in my opinion, three of the

22     documents are clearly outside of the scope of the rebuttal testimony that

23     this witness is allowed to give; specifically, documents tab 5, 7, and 8.

24     And 5, 6, and 8, I'm sorry.  5, 6, and 8.  And we'd kindly ask the

25     explanation from the -- from the Office of the Prosecutor because it will

Page 26443

 1     save time during the -- the testimony of the witness that I wouldn't need

 2     to object on presentation of these documents to the witness.

 3             Thank you.

 4                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.  Let me deal with tab 5 to

 6     begin with.

 7             Tab 5 is a list of staff members working for the Doboj police in

 8     April of 1992.  It is related to one of the topics that were granted in

 9     the decision relating to Mr. Bjelosevic's presence in Doboj during the

10     month of May 1992.  In there, there's a person that is listed and the

11     Trial Chamber -- and the Defence, through Mr. Bjelosevic, challenged his

12     presence in Doboj.  And this was again dealt with in cross-examination

13     with Mr. Radulovic.  So through my questions, you will see that it is

14     related to that topic of Mr. Bjelosevic's presence in Doboj in May of

15     1992.

16             The second one is one of the -- I believe tab 6.  Yes.  Is one of

17     the log-books of the central prison Doboj, just to corroborate the fact

18     that the witness -- the next witness was detained there.  Simply that his

19     name appears in that log-book.  It is it part of his testimony that he

20     was arrested, et cetera.  And following this release, he did see

21     Mr. Bjelosevic.  So it is part of that background of his testimony.

22             And as of tab 8, this is a map of the 1st Krajina Corps

23     indicating the area of responsibility of the corps.  Actually,

24     Your Honour, I may not use that one at all.  It may be relevant to the

25     next witness.  So we'll see where we go with that one, but I don't

Page 26444

 1     believe that I will need to use it all.

 2             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And I don't suppose that,

 3     Mr. Demirdjian, that you need to be reminded of the areas in respect of

 4     which this witness has been permitted to be called which is in the

 5     decision that we would have given.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Absolutely, Your Honours, yes.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 8             So if there is nothing else, could the witness please be escorted

 9     into court.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE HALL:  Good morning to you, sir.  Would you please read the

12     solemn declaration on the card that the usher is now handing to you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

15     and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  MIRZA LISINOVIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  And please be seated.

19             From your responses so far, I take it that you are hearing me in

20     a language that you understand?

21             Would you please confirm that.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Well, as I said, welcome to the Tribunal, and you

24     have been called by the Prosecution in terms of the -- their case in

25     rebuttal of the case for the Defence.  You would have begun by taking the

Page 26445

 1     solemn declaration which imposes upon you an obligation to give truthful

 2     testimony, and should you give false or misleading testimony this

 3     Tribunal is empowered to deal with you as -- on -- on the -- for the

 4     offence of perjury under its statutes.

 5             The Prosecution, whose witness you are, has indicated that their

 6     examination-in-chief would take about two hours, and counsel for the

 7     second accused, I believe, have indicated a like period of time.

 8             The -- so your testimony should be completed within the course of

 9     today.  The periods of sitting are of not more than an hour and a half

10     duration because the -- because largely for technical reasons in terms of

11     the tapes that have to be changed, so, therefore, the Court would take a

12     break after -- 10.25 I think is the first break and resume in 20 minutes.

13     But if you need, for whatever reason, to take a break other than that if

14     you would indicate it to us and we would accommodate you.

15             And with that, I would invite Mr. Demirdjian, who is counsel for

16     the Prosecution, to begin.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

18                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Could you please state your name for the

20     record.

21        A.   My name is Mirza Lisinovic.

22        Q.   And could you tell us your place of birth?

23        A.   I was born in Kotorsko, Doboj municipality, Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina.

25        Q.   And is it correct to say that you lived in the Doboj municipality

Page 26446

 1     all the way up to the war -- to the war?

 2        A.   Yes, it is.

 3        Q.   Now, I'd just like to cover very quickly your educational

 4     background.  Is it correct to say that you attended primary school and

 5     Gymnazijum in Doboj?

 6        A.   I finished my elementary school in my native village and

 7     secondary school in Doboj.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And you graduated from the law faculty in Sarajevo in

 9     1988?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Only the faculty had a branch in Doboj, but

11     the degree itself was issued by the faculty in Sarajevo.

12        Q.   Very well.  Before I go through your professional background, can

13     you tell us what is your current occupation?

14        A.   Over the last six or so years, I have been an employee of SIPA,

15     the state agency for protection, and I was the internal control head, and

16     that is the post that I have been holding since.

17        Q.   And who appointed you to this position?

18        A.   Well, let me tell you, there was an advertisement.  This position

19     was announced.  But formally and officially, this decision was taken in

20     September of 2005 by Mr. Paddy Ashdown, the administer, along with the

21     staff from the administration, and a number of assistant directors.

22        Q.   You said you ended your studies in 1988.  What -- did you start

23     working immediately afterwards?

24        A.   I started working in 1986, in Derventa, the social welfare

25     centre.  At the time, I had finished two years of the faculty of law.  In

Page 26447

 1     1998, I graduated, and before that, I did my military service.  But as a

 2     lawyer, proper lawyer, I started in 1986 in the Doboj police station.

 3        Q.   Very well.  And were you appointed to a position in 1989?

 4        A.   From 1989, the 1st of January, I became commander deputy of the

 5     Doboj police station, or the municipal SUP of Doboj.  That is actually

 6     when I started working for the police as a deputy commander.

 7        Q.   And it is correct to say that you held that position until the

 8     month of July in 1991?

 9        A.   In 1990, in the spring of that year, I became commander of the

10     Doboj police station.  The then-commander, Karlo Grgic, retired so I was

11     the police station commander I think from April 1990 until July 1991.

12     That would be the accurate state of affairs.

13        Q.   Very well.  So first you were deputy commander and then you were

14     promoted to commander.  Now, in July 1991, was there someone who replaced

15     you?

16        A.   As a result, or a consequence of the first multi-party elections,

17     new appointments were made in police so that as of July 1991, the police

18     station commander was appointed, and that was Irfan Hadzic from Doboj,

19     and I think he was a mechanical engineer.  I remained in the station.  I

20     was not appointed to a new position, and I didn't receive any written

21     decision.  That means that I remained working until October 1991, which

22     is the time when I received an official decision signed by Mr. Selimovic,

23     the deputy of the republican secretary, and --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

25     of the answer, and, if possible, slow down.  Thank you.

Page 26448

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 2        Q.   Yes, Mr. Lisinovic, the interpreters are asking if you could

 3     possibly slow down and repeat the last part of your answer in relation to

 4     what you were doing after October 1991, please.

 5        A.   I apologise to the interpreters.  It's slipped my mind.

 6             From October 1st, 1991, based on the decision issued by the

 7     Secretariat of the Interior of the republic based in Sarajevo, issued at

 8     the then-assistant secretary Selimovic, I was appointed to the CSB,

 9     specifically to the uniformed police section.

10        Q.   Very well.  Now, the CSB had also gone through some changes that

11     year.  Who was the chief of the CSB?

12        A.   Approximately at the time when these new appointments were made,

13     Bogdan Nikolic was succeeded by Mr. Andrija Bjelosevic at the CSB;

14     whereas in the public security station of Doboj, which is the municipal

15     police, Milan Kovacevic was replaced by Obren Petrovic.

16        Q.   Very well.  You mentioned these new names, Irfan Hadzic,

17     Andrija Bjelosevic and Obren Perovic, were these all political

18     appointees?

19        A.   Look, that was a time when people were flocking together on

20     ethnic lines and bases, if I may describe it in that way.  It was not

21     strictly decided in that manner.  These appointments were made by the

22     secretariat in Sarajevo, but, nevertheless, without the political support

23     of the ruling parties at the time, no one could become chief of police.

24     That's what I think.

25        Q.   And the former chief of police, Bogdan Nikolic, do you know what

Page 26449

 1     ethnicity he was?

 2        A.   He was a Serb.  And that is when he retired.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, as of October 1991, you're working in this section in

 4     the CSB.  Can you tell us exactly what your work entailed?

 5        A.   This section of the uniformed police, and there was also a

 6     criminal investigation section, my section actually had about two groups

 7     of workers.  One of them were in charge of duty operations activities,

 8     working at the centre; and the other group was involved in directing and

 9     supervising the work of the police.  And I was a member of this latter

10     group, which means directing and supervising duties.

11             We, who were involved in these kind of operations, had to perform

12     some duty -- duty responsibilities in the event that someone was missing

13     from the staff or absent for whatever reason.  We were obliged to cover

14     for them, although our decisions on appointment did not envisage this

15     kind of engagement.

16        Q.   And just to clarify your position, you said that you were

17     involved in directing and supervising the work of the police.  Are we

18     talking about only the municipal police here?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So your work was limited to the Doboj municipality?

21        A.   No, no.  All the CSB responsibilities covered nine municipalities

22     that were integral and constituent part of that centre, and the centre

23     was actually the headquarters for the whole region.

24        Q.   Very well.  Now, who was your superior in this section?

25        A.   Vojo Blagojevic was the chief of the uniformed police section at

Page 26450

 1     the centre.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And who did he report to?

 3        A.   To Mr. Bjelosevic, the chief of the centre -- or, rather, I'm

 4     sorry, the centre had two sectors:  The public security sector and the

 5     state security sector.  That was a time when things functioned in that

 6     manner.  There was no separate state security agency at the time.

 7             So we had a chief of the public security centre, or sector, so

 8     between the chief of the centre, you had the chief of the public

 9     security.  At the time of these appointments, that position was occupied

10     by Mr. Hodzic from Tesanj who was killed in a road accident, and then he

11     was succeeded by Hasan Klokic.  That was the public security sector;

12     whereas, the state security sector was headed by --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the name.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15        Q.   Yes, could you repeat the name of the head of the state security

16     sector.

17        A.   Ilija Bilic.

18        Q.   Now, Haso Klokic, can you tell us what was his ethnicity?

19        A.   A Bosniak, a Muslim.  A Bosniak.

20        Q.   And Ilija Bilic, what was his background?

21        A.   A Croat.

22        Q.   And I believe it is correct to say that in the CSB you also had a

23     crime investigation department.  Can you tell us who headed that unit?

24        A.   I already said that we had these two sections.  Mr. Pejo Krnjic

25     was the head of the criminal investigation section.

Page 26451

 1        Q.   And can you give us his ethnicity as well, please.

 2        A.   A Croat.

 3        Q.   We've talked about the CSB.  We've heard that there was an army

 4     barracks in Doboj.  Can you tell us which units were located in Doboj?

 5     And I'm talking about the early part of 1992.

 6        A.   Doboj had also had a garrison.  It was a tradition where, of

 7     course, JNA troops were deployed, at the time when it existed as such.

 8     We had the barracks called the 4th of July, and there were a number of

 9     other smaller facilities in the surrounding villages, Sevarlije, Bare,

10     et cetera, but mainly depots.  So that all belonged to the

11     Yugoslav People's Army because that was the only regular army at the

12     time.  Now, after its transformation into the Serbian army, when they

13     removed these insignia, the situation changed since members of the

14     Bosnian community abandoned and left the army, failed to respond to

15     call-ups, et cetera, so effectively it became a Serbian army.

16        Q.   And around which time would you say that this transformation took

17     place?

18        A.   Already at the beginning of the conflict in Croatia is the time

19     when these kind of changes were on the increase within the structure of

20     the army.

21        Q.   Very well.  And in the garrison itself, do you know which unit,

22     or which units were present, or were stationed there?

23        A.   No, I don't know.  I can't tell you that.

24        Q.   Now, did you know who was the commander of the garrison?

25        A.   In the last half year that I worked at the centre, Cazim Hadzic,

Page 26452

 1     the lieutenant-general, was the commander.

 2        Q.   Now, through your work, did you come to learn what influence he

 3     had over the activities of the garrison?

 4        A.   Well, I did not have proper access to the garrison; therefore, I

 5     cannot speak about how it operated.  I had no access to this kind of

 6     information, and I had no access to the garrison itself.

 7        Q.   Did you interact with any members of the garrison?

 8        A.   By the very nature of our job and as needed, we had certain

 9     contacts with the military security people, specifically with

10     Captain Jeftic.  I think that was his name.  We had meetings with him, we

11     co-operated with him, we were involved in some joint activities,

12     et cetera.  I think his last name was Jeftic.

13        Q.   And through your interactions with Jeftic, did you learn about

14     the situation in the garrison?

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  I really have to object now.  The witness clearly

16     explained that he doesn't have any knowledge whatsoever.  So this is the

17     second time that Mr. Demirdjian is trying to elicit answer from the

18     witness where witness clearly said that he doesn't have any information.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Demirdjian.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.  I believe we'll be able to

21     elicit this from the next question, Your Honours.

22        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, did you know a man by the name of

23     Milovan Stankovic?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  He was a major.  Everybody called him

25     Major Stankovic.  Yes, I did know him.

Page 26453

 1        Q.   Very well.  And your interactions with Captain Mr. Jeftic, did

 2     you come to learn of the relationship between Mr. Hadzic and

 3     Mr. Stankovic?

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I have to object against.  First of all, the

 5     witness clearly said he doesn't have any information.  He was clearly

 6     asked.  He doesn't have any information about the situation in garrison.

 7     We are having the next witness who is called to rebut the evidence in

 8     that respect.  This witness is called for three issues only, and none of

 9     them has anything to do with the situation in garrison in Doboj.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can I just ask the witness to remove his

11     headphones for a second, please.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Does the witness speak and understand English then?

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

14        Q.   Sir, do you understand any English?

15        A.   [In English] My English is not very well.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  What do we make of that.

17             I'll be very brief.

18             Mr. Lisinovic, can you remove your earphones, please, for a

19     moment.

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  Clearly the witness speaks some English so he

21     should be excused.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we just -- just for a minute.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Well, before we ask the witness to be excused,

24     Mr. Demirdjian, on the face of it, it seems that Mr. Zecevic's point is

25     sound.  Is this something that -- where you insist on proceeding?

Page 26454

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, the very next thing I'm about to say I

 2     don't want to say it in front of the witness not to affect his testimony

 3     in any way.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Well, would the usher please escort the

 5     witness outside the court briefly.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours, I apologise for not replying

 8     immediately, but my very answer to your question would impact in some way

 9     what the witness will say next.

10             Mr. Zecevic has obviously read Mr. Lisinovic's statement, and at

11     paragraph 12 the witness does discuss this relationship through his

12     interaction with Mr. Jeftic.  Now, Mr. Jeftic was a captain in the

13     garrison, security officer.  Mr. Lisinovic had the occasion to interact

14     with him.  It may be that the witness needs to be refreshed.  I'm not

15     going to try to refresh his memory right now.  I'm just trying to get to

16     the answer without refreshing his memory at this time.  So I do know that

17     he can answer that question.  That's why I'm insisting at this time.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  With all due respect, that is not the point,

19     Your Honour.  You see, the witness is called to testify about three

20     issues only.  The contents of his statements is not an issue over here.

21     He has to testify what was -- what was the decision of the Trial Chamber

22     is this witness is testifying on three issues only.  Not about his

23     general knowledge or the contents of his statement.

24             So --

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  With all due respect, Your Honours, the issue

Page 26455

 1     itself goes to the core of which units were in power in Doboj and who is

 2     about to take over the town.

 3             Now the relation between Mr. Hadzic and Stankovic goes to the

 4     heart of this issue.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, the witness, may I remind -- the

 6     witness is on the -- by your decision of 15th December, 2011, the

 7     witness, Mirza Lisinovic, was allowed to be called in a rebuttal on the

 8     following topics:  The imminent attack on Doboj by non-Serb forces as a

 9     justification for the take-over by Serbs and the question who ordered

10     that take-over.  That's one.  B, adjudicated fact 1267, an evidence that

11     Bjelosevic was away from the CSB Doboj in May and June 1992 and the

12     functioning of the CSB Doboj during that period.

13             Therefore, I don't see how this situation and the -- the

14     situation within the garrison of Doboj reflects any of these -- is

15     reflected in any of these issues.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I believe --

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I believe Mr. Zecevic answered his own question.

19     It's in relation to, in fact, who was in power and who controlled the

20     army for the take-over of Doboj.  They're claiming that it was a Muslim

21     by the name of Cazim Hadzic.  We're saying that it was a man by the name

22     of Stankovic who was in charge of the garrison, so I think it goes

23     straight to the heart of number (a), evidence that Doboj was on the verge

24     of being attacked.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, I was reminding myself of the -- our decision

Page 26456

 1     as Mr. Zecevic was on his feet, and the point about the functioning of

 2     CSB Doboj I suppose does come within subparagraph (a) of what is -- what

 3     we permitted to be led.

 4             So you may proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             I guess we can call the witness back in.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, let me go back to my question:  Did you come to

11     learn about the relationship between Mr. Hadzic and Mr. Stankovic?

12        A.   [Interpretation] I did not have exact information about their

13     mutual relations.  Why would I?  However, as a person who was the

14     commander of the defence of the town, Major Stankovic was the one who

15     declared himself as the one in Doboj and the surrounding area.  One could

16     judge that by his public appearances when he spoke on the radio and how

17     the citizens saw him and received him.  I don't know how that came to

18     happen, but, really, he was announced to be the commander of the defence

19     of Doboj.  He was not the commander of the barracks.  But as for their

20     relations, I couldn't talk about that because I really wouldn't know.

21        Q.   Very well.  Did you see Mr. Stankovic at the CSB building where

22     you were working?

23        A.   Yes.  There were some visits when he came to the building where I

24     work; correct.

25        Q.   And would other members of the army visit the CSB building?

Page 26457

 1        A.   Yes.  Members of the military security.  But there was also one

 2     type of these visits that, as policemen, we were not too happy about.

 3     And these were the visits of Mr. Predrag Kujundzic, who very frequently

 4     visited the police building.  He was later charged with war crimes and

 5     also sentenced.  His role was not quite clear over those months, whether

 6     he was a member of the military or a policeman or a military police, and

 7     whether the unit which was called Predo's Wolves was part of the military

 8     structure or not.  We, as policemen, did not find that clear.  And later

 9     on, the unit was involved in some unlawful acts and this man has been

10     sentenced.

11             This is what I can say about these other visits, if that was the

12     thrust of your question.

13        Q.   And just to clarify for the Trial Chamber, during which

14     time-period are we talking when we're dealing about the visits of

15     Mr. Kujundzic and Mr. Stankovic?

16        A.   We could say it was during three or four months before the

17     2nd of May, roughly, in 1992.

18        Q.   Okay.  And just to wrap this up, in terms of frequency, how

19     frequent would you say these visits were?

20        A.   I couldn't say exactly.  I couldn't say that these were daily or

21     weekly visits.  But we would meet from time to time.  I worked on the

22     same floor as the chief of the centre, so sometimes we would meet

23     accidentally.  We would see each other but there were probably also

24     visits when I didn't see them or didn't know.  So I couldn't really say

25     what the frequency was.

Page 26458

 1        Q.   You told us about the army unit and you also now just mentioned

 2     Predo's Wolves.  To your knowledge, there were paramilitary units in

 3     early 1992?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us which units, to your knowledge, were present in

 6     the Doboj municipality?

 7        A.   Well, you see, I can talk about that on the basis of speculation

 8     and rumours that circulated among the citizens.  We really couldn't see

 9     the units which would have any sort of symbols or insignia that would

10     designate them as members of specific units.  That did not exist.

11             The uniforms that used to be the JNA uniforms were stripped of

12     five-pointed star and they remained camouflage or olive-drab or whatever

13     kind they were but without any specific insignia.  There were stories

14     going around, especially after the events in Bijeljina and so on, that

15     units from Serbia, like Seselj's Men, the White Eagles, the Red Berets

16     had arrived in Doboj.  But, as I say, that was what the scared citizens

17     talked among themselves.  Whether there were such units stationed in the

18     barracks, this is what somebody who was in the barracks could tell you.

19     On the other hand, the local Serbs from Doboj were also concerned about

20     units that may arrive from Croatia, and the area in the direction of the

21     present day municipality of Usora was mentioned as the location where

22     units such as the HOS and the ZNG units could have been stationed, but I

23     took that to be only part of the speculation on part of the citizens

24     that -- and stories going around, caused by fear, about what could

25     happen.  But whether it was really like that, and whether all that really

Page 26459

 1     existed, this is something I couldn't say, not having any evidence about

 2     it.

 3        Q.    Very well.  One of the first units you mentioned was the

 4     Seselj's Men and the White Eagles.  Did you have any report on their

 5     present [sic]?

 6        A.   I did not have specific reports.  I just remember a situation.

 7     It seems to me that some property had gone missing.  The sleepers from

 8     railway tracks between Doboj and Modrica had gone missing between

 9     Busletic and Kostajnica villages, and I think that there was this report

10     about the wooden sleepers from the railway tracks that had gone missing

11     and then stories were going around that the paramilitary units had taken

12     that for their own needs, but whether that was based on anything, this is

13     something I couldn't tell.  Once again, it was just a rumour practically.

14             I don't know, maybe the crime investigation section knew more

15     about that, but investigations were not my line of work because this was

16     a report on items that had gone missing.

17        Q.   Very well.  And one last question on this unit:  Did you come to

18     learn about where they were located or where they were stationed in any

19     way?

20             MR. ZECEVIC:  I would like the basis for that question because

21     the witness, I believe, said that he didn't have any reports, didn't have

22     any knowledge.  It was just rumours.  And now Mr. Demirdjian is asking

23     where the unit was stationed.  And the fact is that the witness doesn't

24     know that the witness existed at all in the territory of Doboj at the

25     time.

Page 26460

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I believe it is a fair and non-leading question,

 2     and that the witness has heard of their presence.  He could at least tell

 3     us if he knew where they were located.  I don't see any harm in that

 4     question.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, please proceed.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 7        Q.   Would you like me to repeat the question, Mr. Lisinovic?

 8        A.   There is no need for that.

 9             I told you that I don't have any evidence or information about

10     that.  But judging by the report and items gone missing, Busletic and

11     Kostajnica and Grapska villages were mentioned so that was the area.  If

12     the criminal investigation section investigated that, maybe they proved

13     something about it, but as I told you, I really don't have any

14     information about that, that anything like that was stationed or located

15     there.

16        Q.   Very well.  These units that you mentioned to us earlier,

17     including the Red Berets, and those rumours that you heard, you've

18     described also the presence of the army and Predo's Wolves.  Can you tell

19     the Trial Chamber what was the ethnic composition of these units, if you

20     know?

21        A.   I can talk about Predo's Wolves because there is no doubt that

22     such a unit did exist.  These were the locals from Lipac, Suho Polje,

23     Tekucica [phoen] villages.  These are Serb-populated villages.

24        Q.   And in relation to weapon, were you aware of any locations where

25     weapons were kept in the Doboj municipality?

Page 26461

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have a specific question?  Weapons by whom

 2     or -- I mean ...

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I don't want to lead the witness.  I'll let him

 4     answer.

 5        Q.   Let's be slightly more specific, just to cover this a bit better.

 6     I'm talking about military equipment and military weapons.

 7        A.   You're asking me whether there were weapons somewhere outside of

 8     the barracks that was available to anyone or what?  I'm not sure I

 9     understand the question.

10        Q.   My apologies.  Let me rephrase my questions [sic].

11             Were you aware of any locations where military equipment were

12     kept in the Doboj municipality?

13        A.   Well, the military equipment was held in military facilities.

14     But during the last few months, the people thought that the military

15     equipment was being transported to the Ozren mountain including a

16     military hospital or military medical units, that everything was driven

17     out to the settlements on the Ozren mountain outside of the town of

18     Doboj, more or less to the places from which Predo's Wolves hailed which

19     I mentioned.  These were the stories going around and that was it.  So

20     the transportation of equipment, that would be not in any military

21     facility, that was all that I knew.

22        Q.  And you're telling us that these are stories.  Did you know at the

23     time whether this was an actual fact?

24        A.   Yes.  There were frequent movements of military vehicles.  There

25     were military convoys transporting equipment.  There were many convoys

Page 26462

 1     that were moving along these roads and going to these destinations.  That

 2     is fact.  But there were many movements of the army that was undoubtedly

 3     coming from Serbia.  There were buses with licence plates that were full

 4     of troops and that were transiting through Doboj, together with military

 5     vehicles about which one couldn't tell where they belonged because,

 6     judging by the licence plates, you couldn't tell which town they were

 7     coming from.  So that's what I could say about troops and equipment.  It

 8     was quite intense, this migration of both troops and equipment.

 9        Q.   Very well.  And to close this chapter, what armed forces, if any,

10     did you know that were present on the Doboj municipality belonging to the

11     Muslim and Croat side?

12        A.   You're asking me about the military units, the Muslim and

13     Croatian military units?

14        Q.   Yes.  In the municipality of Doboj.

15        A.   At the time, in the Doboj municipality, there were no military

16     units, at least that is my position, no Muslim or Croatian military

17     units.  There were reserve police stations that had been activated in the

18     local communes, and that started in September 1991 and onwards.

19             So there were these units that belonged to reserve police

20     stations, together with their commanders, and these people were armed,

21     but that was not the army.  It is a fact that in certain places there

22     were armed units as early as in September, but these were not army units.

23     This was not the military.  This is how I see things.

24        Q.   And you're talking about the reserve police station belonging to

25     the Ministry of Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, correct, of the republic?

Page 26463

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Let me move to the period slightly before the take-over.

 3             Can you tell us whether the structure you described in this

 4     morning, the structure of the CSB, whether that remained unchanged

 5     throughout the month of April 1992?

 6        A.   In the area of the Doboj CSB, which covers nine municipalities:

 7     Doboj, Brod, Samac, Derventa, Odzak, Modrica, Teslic, Maglaj and Tesanj.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Lisinovic, let me rephrase my question.  I'm

 9     talking about the structure of the personnel within the CSB where you

10     were working.  Whether the composition, the composition of the personnel

11     of the CSB remained unchanged.

12        A.   Uh-huh, yes.  From the time when I started working at the centre,

13     the chief, Hodzic, was killed in a car accident.  He was succeeded by

14     Klokic.  The remaining structure formally stayed the same without any new

15     personnel being appointed by decisions to specific assignments, but there

16     was a disruption because people abandoned their posts during the months

17     of, I don't know, March, April.  So that, for example, Mr. Krnjic and

18     Mr. Bilic stopped working.  They stopped coming to work and had already

19     been in Croatia a long time before the critical moment of the 2nd May in

20     the evening.  So two top officials.

21             There were also many people who were on sick-leave - for example,

22     Boro Kopcic, who was one of the duty operations officers - also stopped

23     coming to work because of sick-leave, and then I had to cover him in some

24     of the shifts.  There were some new colleagues who had arrived from the

25     municipal police stations in the Posavina area and they began working in

Page 26464

 1     Doboj.  Now, as for specific names of those new colleagues, I couldn't

 2     really remember them.

 3        Q.   Could you tell the Court whether you learned about the reasons

 4     why Mr. Krnjic and Bilic stopped coming to work?

 5        A.   Well, they were concerned about their own security.  Namely, it

 6     happened that the chief of the municipal criminal investigation section

 7     of the police, Mato Krizic, was kidnapped from the street in the typical

 8     manner while he was coming to the work.  The army did that, and they held

 9     him for a few days in some sort of isolation, we don't know where, and

10     then they released him.  And that influenced a number of people to stop

11     living in Doboj, let alone come to work, and Krizic was the municipal

12     chief of the criminal investigation section at the police station in

13     Doboj.  I think that was one of the reasons.  And generally speaking,

14     that was a period when people, believing that a war would break out, were

15     leaving the area to go somewhere where they felt more secure and that

16     included police chiefs and regular policemen.

17        Q.   Very well.  Let's come to the take-over.

18             Can you describe to us what you were doing on the

19     2nd of May 1992?

20        A.   My superior, Mr. Blagojevic, summoned me on the 2nd of May, in

21     the evening to be on duty, because Mr. Boro Kopcic, who was the duty

22     operations officer, was on sick-leave at the time.  So I reported for

23     work beginning at 7.00 p.m., and I was supposed to work until 7.00 a.m.

24     the next morning.

25             That night was very stressful, critical dynamic.  There were many

Page 26465

 1     calls we received.  We were informed about roads that had been blocked.

 2     The trains were not going anymore.  They were people who called us who

 3     were calling the municipal police number, 92, and then from the duty

 4     operations officers in police stations, mainly from the Doboj police

 5     station I would receive such news.  So practically on the 2nd of May, the

 6     blockade of the town began during the day.  There was no traffic anymore

 7     on the roads or on the railway.  I was alone, as the duty officer on the

 8     second floor at the centre.

 9             Sometime around midnight, perhaps, I received a call from Tuzla,

10     from a military officer from the barracks who said that on that stretch

11     between Doboj and Tuzla, an army officer had been kidnapped.  I cannot

12     remember his name now.  But I was trying to get in touch with the duty

13     operations officer in the Doboj barracks so that they would go out on the

14     ground because this was the jurisdiction of the military security.  And

15     while I was having this telephone conversation, three masked men entered

16     my office.  They were wearing those camouflage hats without any insignia,

17     but they had -- you could see the places where their red stars had been -

18     it were the emblems -  and they arrested me.  And so I stopped working

19     for the police.  It could have happened between midnight and 1.00 a.m.,

20     roughly.  I don't know if you want to hear the details about everything

21     else that was going on, but that's what I could tell you about that

22     night.

23        Q.   Let me ask you some follow-up questions about what you just told

24     us:  Through these telephone calls that you were receiving, were you

25     informed of any imminent threat of an attack on the municipality?

Page 26466

 1        A.   No, nothing was formally announced.  There were no announcements

 2     or statements to the effect that that would happen.  It was sudden for

 3     us.  Why would I be there if I knew that I could get killed at night or

 4     be imprisoned?

 5        Q.   And on that day, did you hear of any order issued by the army, by

 6     the garrison, Doboj, in relation to the security situation?

 7        A.   About the attack?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   Not about the attack, but there were some pacifying statements

10     addressing the citizens by the head of the municipality and the top army

11     officers to the effect that there would be no war.  There were some

12     announcement to that effect on the previous day, that there was no war,

13     that there was no conflict.  But as for any formal orders to attack or

14     anything like that, that did not exist.

15        Q.   Very well.  Now you told us that you were taken by these men in

16     balaclavas.  Where were you taken to?

17        A.   Well, one among them who was the leader of the group said that I

18     should go on sitting there and answering the phone and I should say that

19     everything is regular, that there are no problems, that we are working,

20     and so on and so forth.  He ordered the other two, that if I said

21     anything to the contrary that they were allowed to kill me.  Before that,

22     they took away my official pistol which I had on me.  I had to stand

23     against the wall and they frisked me and they took it away.

24             So I sat there for another half an hour.  I could hear that they

25     were breaking the doors and safes down the corridor.  Then they took me

Page 26467

 1     to the ground floor and the entire municipal police team had been

 2     arrested.  They were located on the floor below me.  Maybe five or six

 3     men in total.  We were all beaten up there.  Luckily I had a long leather

 4     jacket which protected me quite well, but it broke in several places.  I

 5     tried to block the strikes with my arms but then I sustained some

 6     injuries on my arms.

 7             Then we were transported to the district prison.  It is the

 8     adjacent building.  You just needed to go through the yard and the same

 9     thing happened again because people who were in charge of receiving us

10     were there.  So after being beaten, I was placed in cell number 10 on

11     the -- the upper floor of the municipal prison.  Before us, the

12     policemen, two prison guards, had already been placed in these rooms.

13     One of them was in room 10.  It was Meho Alicic.  He had been beaten

14     really bad.  But they left him handcuffed so that by defending himself,

15     he squeezed his arms and he asked me to loosen the handcuffs a little bit

16     for him.  And he had the key in his pocket because he was a prison guard.

17     So I loosened it.  I washed his face a little bit and assisted him.  And

18     I'm not sure in what condition he would have been in the morning if he

19     had remained alone in the cell.

20             Alicic was released the following day.  He left.  And I don't

21     know what happened to him.  On the following day they started bringing

22     people to the prison.  As they called on people to report themselves for

23     work obligation, the people who were coming to work were then classified.

24     A gentleman who came to my cell, the manager of the Bosanka factory --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name.

Page 26468

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- told me that he had arrived for

 2     work, and once he had arrived to the gate, he was brought to the prison.

 3     He was also beaten up.  And then they also brought Slavko Duspara, who

 4     was also another manager from the same company.  Then they brought some

 5     other people.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, it appears that the

 7     conduct of this testimony is quite outside the scope of rebuttal evidence

 8     that this witness -- or the Prosecution is permitted to lead it at this

 9     point.  Because we are hearing the same story about the Doboj which we

10     heard during the general case.  I would -- I would kindly ask the

11     Trial Chamber to intervene and ask Mr. Demirdjian to focus the testimony

12     of the witness to the three issues that he was called for.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I will refrain my questions, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Lisinovic, it seems that you have speeded up

15     again.  I would remind you of what the interpreters has asked a while ago

16     for you to slow down so that they can keep up.  There was the -- when you

17     had indicated the name of the -- a certain factory, the witness -- the

18     interpreter hadn't gotten it and asked you to repeat it.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

20        Q.   Yes, the name of the manager of the Bosanska factory was not

21     recorded.  If you could repeat his name?

22        A.   I apologise for my speed.  I was talking about the juice factory

23     Bosanka in Doboj, and the managers were the Rafael Romic and

24     Slavko Duspara.

25        Q.   How long were you detained, Mr. Lisinovic, in the prison?  How

Page 26469

 1     long were you --

 2        A.   I'm not receiving any translation.

 3             Two weeks.

 4        Q.   Very well.  And did you know the exact date of your release?

 5        A.   On the afternoon of the 16th of May.

 6        Q.   Very well.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If there's no objection to this, I'm not going

 8     to show the log-book of this again if Mr. Zecevic agrees that this

 9     witness was detained until the 16th of May.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  I do not dispute that fact.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Lisinovic, once you were released, did you return to

13     your position in CSB Doboj?

14        A.   On the 16th of May, when I was taken out of the cell for a short

15     period of time and told that I would go home, I was told that the first

16     next working day, that was the Monday, the 18th of May, I should report

17     to the chief of the centre, Andrija Bjelosevic.  That was the instruction

18     that I received.  I was told to go home and then to report to the chief

19     Bjelosevic on the Monday.

20             I did so.  I reported at the CSB at the gate and the reception

21     area where citizens normally came.  They let me go upstairs to the second

22     floor because I said I had an arrangement with the chief.  I did not know

23     the person who was working at the gate on that morning.  He was a new

24     employee.  First, I went to the chief's secretary office, where I stayed

25     for a while, and then I went to Chief Bjelosevic's office.

Page 26470

 1        Q.   Now, when you arrived in the chief's secretary office, was the

 2     secretary there?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And did you see Mr. Bjelosevic immediately when you arrived?

 5        A.   I was with his secretary for a short time.  Since the corridor

 6     door was open, Mr. Blagojevic appeared as well.  He was my superior.  We

 7     greeted each others [as interpreted] but he didn't stay long.  He went

 8     away, after which I entered Chief Bjelosevic's office.

 9             We spent about ten minutes talking.  He received me and he said

10     that he was not pleased with what had happened with me, but he said that

11     maybe I would have faired much worse had I been in my flat because I had

12     a police uniform and other equipment and that perhaps somebody could even

13     have killed me.  So it was better for me to have been in the prison.

14             Then he asked me about my father, since he knew him, because my

15     father had a war time assignment as a reserve officer.  He was about 60

16     years of age and he was working at the municipal TO staff or something

17     like that.  That's how Bjelosevic knew him.  He asked me if it was

18     possible for me to influence my native village of Kotorsko to surrender

19     weapons in order to avoid the destiny of other villages.  I told him that

20     there were other elders in that village of mine that they should appeal

21     to, that I wasn't involved in these kind of things.  Then police officer

22     Vojo Maric [as interpreted] came.  He was in charge of these kind of

23     operations.  We went to my office.  I handed over the keys to the safe to

24     him, and with that, my police career ended.

25             Mr. Bjelosevic told me that the time has come, that only Serbs

Page 26471

 1     could work in the police, that I should go home and wait to see what

 2     would happen.  I lived some 3- or 400 metres from the police, and then on

 3     the 27th of July, I, myself, my wife, my child, and a group of other

 4     people were exchanged, and we headed towards Tesanj.

 5        Q.   Now let me backtrack a little bit.

 6             When you arrived at the secretary's office, did you know what

 7     Mr. Bjelosevic was doing?

 8        A.   Of course I didn't know that.  How would I have known that?

 9        Q.   Did you have to wait for a period of time or did you go into his

10     office immediately?

11        A.   I think that I sat with his secretary for a few minutes, up to

12     five minutes.  I don't know.  I didn't enter immediately.

13        Q.   And was there anyone else in his office when you entered his

14     office?

15        A.   A stranger came out who had been with him, but only the chief and

16     Vojo Maric were there when I entered.

17        Q.   Very well.  Now, you told us that he asked you whether you can

18     influence --

19             JUDGE HALL:  Sorry.  Mr. Demirdjian, is this convenient point?

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  Mr. Lisinovic, we are about to take our first

22     break.

23             We would resume in 20 minutes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

Page 26472

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, I just want a couple of clarifications.

 6             First of all, in the transcript at page 30, line 24, you gave us

 7     the name of a police officer who took your keys to the safe.  Could you

 8     tell us his name again?

 9        A.   Vojo Naric.

10        Q.   Thank you.  There's a part of your answer that was not recorded

11     and it was in relation to your discussion with Mr. Bjelosevic.  You were

12     talking about influencing your village Kotorsko.  Could you please repeat

13     that part of your answer?  This is at page 30, line 20.

14        A.   Mr. Bjelosevic asked me if I could influence my fellow villagers

15     of Kotorsko in surrendering their weapons in order to avoid the fate that

16     befell the village of Grabska.  That was the essence of it.

17        Q.   Okay.  Now, do you know whether other policemen went through the

18     same procedure you went through during that time, when you were called

19     into Mr. Bjelosevic's office?

20        A.   I don't know about that.  Did the chief receive other policemen

21     following their release from the prison?  No.  I haven't heard of any

22     such case.  I don't know.

23        Q.   And, to your knowledge, did other non-Serb police officers return

24     to work, CSB Doboj, at the time?

25        A.   As far as I know, not a single policeman who was not a Serb

Page 26473

 1     worked after the 1st of May there.  That's to the best of my knowledge.

 2        Q.   Now, after this meeting and until your exchange on the 27th of

 3     July, could you briefly tell the Court what you were doing?  What were

 4     your activities?

 5        A.   I spent time in my flat.  It's a high-rise building of 16

 6     storeys.  I lived on the eighth storey.  My wife continued to work in her

 7     company for a few days more, but then she stopped working as well.  We

 8     spent all our time in our flat with our child.  And the allowed period of

 9     time for movement in town was from 8.00 until 11.00 in the morning for

10     people to do their shopping and get groceries, et cetera, but that was

11     mostly done by my wife.  I didn't venture out into the streets.

12        Q.   So you were limited to staying at home?

13        A.   I said that the permitted period of movement time for civilians

14     was what I said, and outside that period, it was dangerous to walk in the

15     streets, and I refrained from doing that.

16        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Lisinovic, did you know a man in Doboj by the name of

17     Mile Bosnjak.

18        A.   There was a police officer who had already been retired before

19     the 2nd of May.  I know a retired police officer by the name of Bosnjak.

20     But that's all I know about him.

21        Q.   And when did he retire?

22        A.   I think two or three years prior to these events in Doboj.  It

23     may have been in 1988 or 1989.

24        Q.   And did he hold any position prior to retiring?

25        A.   I don't think he did.  I think he was a regular police officer.

Page 26474

 1        Q.   Okay.  And just to clarify this, your answers says:  "I know a

 2     retired police officer by the name of Bosnjak," and there's a caret

 3     there.

 4             Did you know his full name?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So before the war, did he know his full name?

 7        A.   Well, I didn't go much into details, his personal details.  But I

 8     think his full name was Mile Bosnjak.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Now, sir, you told us that you were released on the

10     27th of July.  You were -- sorry.  You were exchanged on the 27th of

11     July and you ended up in Tesanj.  What did you do exactly in Tesanj?

12        A.   The following day, I inquired in Tesanj whether there were any

13     Doboj police structures, but that it was located in Bregovica

14     [as interpreted].

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Alibegovci.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the neighbourhood that

17     belonged to the municipality of Doboj before the war, but now it was

18     gravitating more to Tesanj.  It was mostly populated by Croats, and there

19     were a few Bosniaks.  And that is where the relocated Doboj police

20     station was, and I reported there the next day, on the 28th of July, to

21     start working as a policeman.

22             However, after some 15 or 20 days, I received from the Doboj

23     Municipal Defence Staff, again, in a new location, an assignment to the

24     Defence Staff of Doboj as the assistant commander for security.  And I

25     stayed in that position from August until approximately mid-1993.

Page 26475

 1             Then, in May 1993, I returned to police force and that is where I

 2     worked, nowadays as well.  So I have a few months during war-time-period

 3     when I was not working for the police, but, rather, for the military

 4     because that was my war time assignment, and physically, I was, all the

 5     time, at this relocated station.  There was another station in Brijesnica

 6     which is the part of Doboj that faces Gracanica.  So there were two

 7     police stations because Doboj, as a result of war, was split into two.

 8     And the end of war found me at the Brijesnica police station as its

 9     commander.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

11        Q.   Now, as a result of a request from the Defence, we obtained your

12     personnel file, and we have seen several documents about your

13     appointments.  And there's one document that I would like to show on the

14     screen.  It is at tab 10.  65 ter 20411.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  For the record, it is 65 ter 20411.

16        Q.   Do you recognise -- oh, no.  Hang on.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let's go to, in the B/C/S, page 12.  And in the

18     English, I believe it's page 3.

19             All right.  So, yes.  English, if we could move to page -- I

20     believe it is page 3.

21             Can we go to the next page in the English.  Next one again.  Very

22     well.  Thank you.

23        Q.   Sir, do you recognise this document?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what we're looking at.

Page 26476

 1        A.   This is a certificate confirming the participation in the defence

 2     of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a member of the armed forces and the periods

 3     of time spent as part of that engagement.  The purpose of this is to

 4     calculate the pensionable service because war-time service is calculated

 5     on a -- on the basis of a different formula.  It's an accelerated rate of

 6     service, and it was issued by the responsible or competent administration

 7     in Zenica.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now, below the title:  "Confirmation," we see your name.

 9     And under number 1, we see:  "VJ 32104/4."  And we see a period of time

10     between the 1st of April and the 3rd of May, 1992.

11             Could you please explain that?

12        A.   Well, that's the period from the 1st of April when the state of

13     war was proclaimed in Bosnia-Herzegovina and a war time assignment

14     commenced on that date.  And I worked there until the 3rd of May, 1992.

15     Then there was a gap until the 27th of July, the time which I spent

16     either in prison or in my flat.  And then the second period goes to the

17     end of the war in 1995.  This designation VJ 32104 is the designation of

18     the Doboj police station, and as such it is entered in the military

19     booklet.  Unfortunately, I wasn't able to comply with your request and

20     provide my military booklet because I couldn't go home where it is.  But

21     I gave it to you yesterday, and it says Doboj SJB, and this is how it is

22     registered in the Defence documents.  The official term "milicija" was

23     changed into "police" in Bosnia-Herzegovina in August of 1993, and there

24     was a decree law issued that those who participated in war, whether they

25     be military personnel or members of the police, should be calculated as

Page 26477

 1     the time spent in war assignment, so that due to that, I don't have any

 2     gaps in my service -- or, rather, that was no gap in my employment,

 3     although there was a period of time when I was not working for the

 4     police.

 5        Q.   And what I'm interested in is this period of time from the 1st

 6     of April to the 3rd of May.  Could you just clarify to us, because it

 7     says here "time served as a member of the armed forces of BiH."

 8             Where were you working in this period?

 9        A.   I was only a police officer.  I don't know, however, how the

10     defence organs or the Ministry of Defence treated that, in actual fact.

11        Q.   And when you say you were a police officer, as you've said

12     before, this is in the CSB building in Doboj; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Until the 7th of -- 27th of July, when I started

14     working in Alibegovci, where a new police station was set up.  But before

15     that period, I wasn't working there.

16        Q.   Very well.  Now, we do have your military booklet just to connect

17     this digit that you have there.  And it's 65 ter 20413.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we pull that up?  It's at tab 12.

19             On the B/C/S version, can we go -- we only have a B/C/S version,

20     Your Honours.  We'll ask for a translation.  Can we go to -- well, this

21     is the second page.

22        Q.   We see your name and your particulars.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go to the next page, please.  And can we

24     zoom to the top right corner of this booklet.  Yes, please.

25        Q.   Now we could see the code that we just saw on the previous

Page 26478

 1     document.  And next to it, it does -- it indicates the unit you were

 2     working for.  And which -- what does it say on the -- next to your code?

 3        A.   SJB, which is the public security station, Doboj.  That's what it

 4     says.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And that's from the period starting on the 27th of July.

 6             And if we look at the two rows below, there's the same codes from

 7     the 1st of April [Realtime transcript read in error "July"]; is that

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, that's right.

10        Q.   Now you told us there was a decree that was adopted in 1993 which

11     made it that the armed forces of BiH include both the army and the

12     police; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Very well.

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. ZECEVIC:  Sorry, Mr. Demirdjian.  Sorry.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just I'm confused now.  38:2.  And if we look at

19     the two rows there's the same code which says "from the 1st of July"; is

20     that right?  I think you said "1st of April."

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I did say 1st of April, yes.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  It should be corrected then in the transcript.

23     38:2.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you very much, Mr. Zecevic.  Yes, I did

25     say from the 1st of April, 1992, until the 3rd of May.  Yeah, until the

Page 26479

 1     3rd of May.  Thank you for that.

 2        Q.   Now I didn't have the chance to show you this document.  We just

 3     located it this morning.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Could we pull up tab 11, which is 65 ter 20412.

 5        Q.   And -- yes.  In the B/C/S version, and also in the English

 6     version, both page 1, can we zoom into Article 1.

 7             This is:

 8             "A decree with the force of law on changes and amendments to the

 9     decree with the force of law on armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina."

11             Now, can you look at Article 1, sir.

12        A.   Yes, I have seen it now.

13        Q.   Is this the disposition of the law that you were referring to?

14        A.   Yes, I think so.  Yes.

15        Q.   Can you read in the quotation marks where it says:

16             "Armed forces during the time of martial law are comprised of:

17     Army and police of the Ministry of Interior ...," et cetera?

18        A.   Yes.  That means that during the state of war, the armed forces

19     are made up of the army and the police of the Ministry of Interior, as

20     well as the units of security in enterprises and other legal persons and

21     units of customs services designated by the Supreme Command of the armed

22     forces.  That is what it says there.

23        Q.   Okay.  Therefore, although you were working for the police, as a

24     result of this decree, you were considered to be as part of the armed

25     forces?

Page 26480

 1             MR. KRGOVIC:  Your Honour, I object at this point because this

 2     document is from 1993.  It's not related to period of indictment.  So why

 3     [indiscernible] this purpose?

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, it is in relation to the status of

 5     the witness when he was arrested, and I think it is relevant.  And maybe

 6     he could tell us how this applied in his case.

 7             JUDGE HALL:  I -- is -- I suppose he would have to -- the

 8     question would be to what extent is this 1993 edict back referenced to

 9     the relevant period?

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  Yes.

11             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] But that's the substance of my

12     objection, because if you look at the document which has been presented

13     to the witness, there is a number of decrees from 1993 which regulated

14     his status.  So if the Prosecutor wants to determine what his status was

15     in 1992, then he should present him with these decrees because the decree

16     changed his status from the one in 1992.  The decrees in 1992 which

17     determined his status in 1992 have been changed with this decree.

18             So if we want to see what his status was and what legal basis for

19     it was in 1992 then he should be shown the decrees from Article 1 in the

20     preamble which have been changed by this decree.

21             JUDGE HALL:  Ignoring, Mr. Krgovic, the evidence that you have

22     just given, the relevant issue, it seems to me, is whether the witness is

23     able to -- well, whether counsel - Mr. Demirdjian, who is on his feet -

24     is able to elicit from the witness the equivalent decree for the relevant

25     period.  If he isn't, then Mr. Krgovic's objection clearly must be

Page 26481

 1     upheld.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, when you referred earlier to a decree in 1993

 4     changing the status, was this the wording you were referring to?

 5        A.   Yes.  Was that the issue of determining the exact status that I

 6     had during the war or immediately preceding that?  I said that this

 7     decree law was adopted in order to equal the position of policemen with

 8     the status of members of the army, in terms of their status as persons

 9     who were involved in the war.  I have around 15 documents which I

10     enclosed that explain day by day my movement during the war and the

11     status which I had.  I was only a policeman up until the 15th of August,

12     or, I'm not sure what date, mid-August 1992, when, by the decision of the

13     Ministry of Defence, I was transferred to the Municipal Defence Staff and

14     I was there until 1993.  After that, I was only a policeman.  These

15     decrees were passed later, and my military booklet was drawn up and

16     issued in 1995.  The first certificate that I have is also dating from

17     1995.  So it's all after the fact.  But I cannot offer you anything else.

18     I have given you all the decisions on my assignments, from the

19     Republican Secretariat and from local units and later.  So everything is

20     covered, all the assignments which I had.  There is nothing that is in

21     dispute and I was also a policeman except for the engagement from

22     August 1992 until the May of 1993.  Now I cannot really go into the

23     analysis of legal regulations.

24        Q.   That's fine.  I think you've clarified it to the Trial Chamber.

25     The certificate, the first one that we showed, was dating from -- it says

Page 26482

 1     here 1995.  But it is correct that it was 2005; is that right?  The

 2     certificate indicating your time as a member of the armed forces.

 3        A.   I think that the first document which you showed me dates from

 4     2001.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  2005; interpreter's correction.

 6        A.   So that was issued in 2005.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 8        Q.   Very well.  So when those documents were drafted --

 9        A.   It's the military booklet that was issued in 1995.  Only the

10     military booklet.

11        Q.   Yes.  So these documents were created after the 1993 decree was

12     adopted?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, for the limited purpose of

15     establishing the status of the witness in 1992, I would ask that his

16     military booklet, the certificate I showed early, as well as the gazette

17     we're looking at right now be admitted in evidence and, again, just to

18     establish the purpose of his status between 1st of April and the 3rd of

19     May 1992.

20             I don't know if there are any challenges from the Defence about

21     his status, but, otherwise, I think to support his evidence.

22             MR. ZECEVIC:  We do not object.  We will be using the same

23     documents in the cross-examination of this witness.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  So --

25             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] But Mr. Zupljanin's Defence has a

Page 26483

 1     somewhat different position.

 2             These documents do not show the status he had in 1992, so they

 3     are irrelevant because they were drawn up later on the basis of

 4     regulations which were adopted in 1993.  If we are to determine his

 5     status in 1992, we should bring the documents from 1992 and the military

 6     booklet from 1992, which existed then and look at the decrees which were

 7     changed by the decree dating from 1993 so that we could see how his

 8     status was regulated in 1992.  And for that purpose, these documents

 9     cannot be used.

10             JUDGE HALL:  The -- it seems notwithstanding what Mr. Zecevic has

11     indicated about his intention to use the same documents, there is no

12     problem about him using them in the way that you have, but I do have a

13     problem with exhibiting them along the lines of Mr. Krgovic's objection.

14     And it seems to me that the relevant evidence which the witness has given

15     is sufficient and that to admit these as items of evidence would inject a

16     measure of confusion which would be totally unnecessary.  But, as I said,

17     that doesn't prohibit you -- you from -- you've used them, and

18     Mr. Zecevic said that he would do likewise, and I don't know that we

19     would be assisted by formally exhibiting them.

20             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, may I intervene here only because it

21     goes to a wider issue than just what has been raised with this witness.

22             Your Honours will know that there is an issue which is still a

23     live issue on the subject of various motions in respect of the status of

24     some of the named victims on the indictment, and various documents have

25     been received from the authorities concerned.  It is our contention that

Page 26484

 1     it is possible that an explanation for what, on the face it, appears to

 2     be a contradictory aspect to these victims can be explained by decrees

 3     such as this.  And it's certainly a matter that is going to be the

 4     subject of argument.  And as Mr. Zecevic has said, that he proposes to

 5     use these documents in any event, Your Honours, it seems to me that they

 6     probably should be exhibited.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I'm afraid that now I have a problem.

 8     Because my understanding was that this document goes to the credibility

 9     of the witness and that -- that they were offered by Mr. Demirdjian for

10     the sole purposes of establishing his status in between certain dates

11     which are relevant to this indictment.  And on that, I don't have a

12     problem.

13             But now, if Ms. Korner wants to use them to further another

14     aspect of these documents and as a basis of the theory, and may I say a

15     wrong one, as a matter of fact, then I certainly do have a problem with

16     that, and I would oppose that this document be admitted on -- on basis of

17     that.

18             Thank you.

19             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, it is must have occurred to --

20     the reason when this witness explained -- it became apparent that it had

21     a knock-on effect.  It certainly goes further than his credibility.

22             But, Your Honour, I'm not sure what -- what exactly it is that

23     Mr. Zecevic is now suggesting.  He is going to refer to these documents

24     when, in cross-examination it's clear these documents, if they're going

25     to be referred to by both parties in some form or another, have to be

Page 26485

 1     exhibited, the use to which they may be put at later stage is a question

 2     of argument.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  As I listen to the Prosecution reflecting on the --

 4     what seems to be a new twist on the rule that a party is not expected to

 5     introduce contradiction or confusion in its own case, but let me -- we'll

 6     consult.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  The Chamber is not persuaded that these documents

10     should be admitted in the evidence.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well, Your Honour.

12        Q.   And just one final question, Mr. Lisinovic, before I conclude:

13     It is your position that during the month of April 1992, you worked

14     throughout that time at CSB Doboj; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That concludes my examination-in-chief,

18     Your Honours.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

20             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I would kindly ask that our

22     cross-examination be deferred until tomorrow morning.

23             Your Honours, the reasons are the following:  We interviewed this

24     witness only on -- on January 6th, last Friday, and the transcript was --

25     the transcript of the interview was done only on the

Page 26486

 1     8th of January because in the -- in between was the Orthodox Christmas,

 2     as you know.  Orthodox Christmas, yes.  And we had a number of documents,

 3     some 21 documents, which we wanted to show to the witness in anticipation

 4     of the witness's testimony.  However, 85 per cent, of course, of them

 5     were not translated because we received them only on Friday last week.

 6             Now, we are -- at this point we are able to prioritise our

 7     request for translations because I would need only two or three

 8     documents, and I believe that tomorrow morning we have that document with

 9     the help of the CLSS which will enable me to finish my cross-examination

10     fairly quickly within, I believe, one session.

11             I think it is just for the practical purposes I'm asking for that

12     my cross-examination be deferred until tomorrow morning.

13             Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Demirdjian.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

16             Notwithstanding the issue of translations, I would like to inform

17     the Chamber that the witnesses needs to fly back tomorrow afternoon.  He

18     has already expressed that wish because of commitments having regard of

19     his position back in Bosnia.  That's number one.

20             Number two, I believe that Mr. Krgovic also has some questions to

21     ask, so whether it would be possible for him to conduct his

22     cross-examination --

23             JUDGE HALL:  I was about to ask that, Mr. Demirdjian.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  And number three, before I conclude,

25     during the interview conducted by the Defence last week, there were a

Page 26487

 1     number of documents which were used with Mr. Lisinovic of which we were

 2     not provided copies of.  And we will be asking about their provenance and

 3     their sources and perhaps we can use some time to address these matters

 4     right now.

 5             But, first, we can ask Mr. Krgovic if he can conduct his

 6     cross-examination today.

 7             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my cross-examination

 8     was to be in connection precisely with the two documents which the

 9     Prosecutor showed Mr. Lisinovic, in case that they were admitted into

10     evidence.  But as they have not been admitted into evidence, I will not

11     have any questions for the cross-examination of Mr. Lisinovic.

12             MS. KORNER:  It may well be at this stage Your Honours have not

13     admitted it into evidence.  We will almost certainly be reapplying in

14     connection, as I say, with other matters.

15             So I don't know whether that affects Mr. Krgovic's decision not

16     to cross-examine.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Of course, as we have said continuously, a trial

18     moves and counsel can only act on the state of matters as they exist, and

19     we have ruled that the documents will not be exhibited, although, to

20     repeat, counsel are entitled to use them in cross-examination, and

21     Mr. Krgovic has, no doubt, advised himself accordingly and taken his

22     decision.  Now, of course, I'm not going to presume the result of any

23     further application the Prosecution may make, and there may be

24     consequences on any such decision which Mr. Krgovic -- with which

25     Mr. Krgovic would have to deal, but we can only -- but today, as we

Page 26488

 1     speak, the documents are not admitted, and Mr. Krgovic has made his

 2     position known.

 3             MS. KORNER:  Well, Your Honour, yes.  Your Honours didn't

 4     actually give a reason for not admitting them.  Was it on the basis of

 5     relevance?  Because, Your Honours, it seems to me that if both

 6     Prosecution and Defence decide to cross-examine, examine and

 7     cross-examine on a document, that must mean that it has some relevance,

 8     even if it is not immediately apparent to Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Well, the reason is they are ex facie irrelevant,

10     particularly having regard to the fact that this is a rebuttal witness,

11     and it has not been demonstrated in such arguments as have been advanced

12     by Mr. Demirdjian, at whose instance the application was made, as to how

13     the -- I was about to say the obvious, but how the apparent

14     non-connection which Mr. Krgovic highlighted is -- is resolved.  And on

15     that basis, the Chamber decided they were inadmissible as evidence.

16             But to say, for about the fourth time now, that that did not

17     prohibit or inhibit counsel from either side of looking at the documents

18     and speaking to them, having the witness speak to them in terms of

19     questions.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

22                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

23             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Krgovic, I don't wish to be unduly repetitive,

24     but having regard to the observations which Ms. Korner made subsequent to

25     your indication of your position on this, your position -- that is, your

Page 26489

 1     position hasn't changed, having heard Ms. Korner.  You have no questions

 2     of this witness.

 3             MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, my position

 4     remains the same.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Zecevic, we understand the -- that the advantage of the

 7     adjournment that you seek, to you and the Chamber, would be that being

 8     able to focus your necessary cross-examination with the documents that

 9     you would have time to review over the extended period that we have

10     today, that you would finish well within the time indicated tomorrow.

11     You indicated one session, so that the witness's commitments can -- can

12     be met by him.

13             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Yes.  I'm positive about it.

14             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

15             So with that, we take the adjournment to 9.00 tomorrow morning.

16             Mr. Lisinovic, you, having been sworn as a witness in this

17     matter, we're about to take the adjournment for today, and I am to remind

18     you that until you are released by the Chamber you cannot have any

19     communication with counsel from either side in this matter, and such

20     communications, as you may have with persons outside of the court, cannot

21     be related to your testimony at all.

22             Do you understand what I've just said?

23             Sorry, I didn't get a response.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

Page 26490

 1             So we take the adjournment to tomorrow.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.45 a.m.,

 4                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 11th day of

 5                           January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.