Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26491

 1                           Wednesday, 11 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 6     everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7             This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

 8     Stojan Zupljanin.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Good morning to everyone.  May we have the appearances today,

11     please.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Alex Demirdjian,

13     with Sebastiaan van Hooydonk for the Prosecution.

14             MR. ZECEVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Slobodan Zecevic,

15     Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Monika Marekova, appearing

16     for Stanisic Defence this morning.  Thank you.

17             MR. KRGOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Dragan Krgovic and

18     Aleksandar Aleksic for Zupljanin Defence.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

20             Before the witness is escorted back into court, there's a very

21     brief ruling that we have to deliver, but we gather that the -- this is

22     in relation to the Prosecution's motion to use document 65 ter 20316 with

23     the witness who is coming up, and we have been advised through --

24     informed through our Legal Officer that there is no objection from the

25     Defence, but could we have that on the record, please.

Page 26492

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

 2             We do not have any objection that this document be shown to the

 3     witness, the 65 ter 20316.  However, we reserve the right to object on

 4     its admittance if the Prosecutor chooses to offer it as exhibit.

 5             Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 7             Does the Zupljanin Defence have any comment on this?

 8             MR. KRGOVIC:  No, Your Honour.  It was joint submission.

 9             JUDGE HALL:  On the 29th of December, 2011, the Prosecution filed

10     a renewed motion to use document 65 ter 20316 with Witness ST-266.  Its

11     original request to use it was denied without prejudice in the

12     Trial Chamber's decision granting, in part, the Prosecution's first and

13     second motions to present evidence in rebuttal of the

14     15th of December, 2011, as a translation of the document had not been

15     provided to the Trial Chamber.

16             Having reviewed the translation of the document, which has now

17     been uploaded into e-court, the Trial Chamber grants the Prosecution's

18     request to use this document during the testimony of Witness ST-266.  The

19     Prosecution's renewed motion to use this document during

20     examination-in-chief is thus granted.

21             Thank you.

22             Could account usher please escort the witness back to the stand.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Lisinovic, good morning to you.  Before I invite

25     Mr. Zecevic to begin his cross-examination, I remind you of the solemn

Page 26493

 1     declaration that you would have made yesterday.

 2                           WITNESS:  MIRZA LISINOVIC [Resumed]

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lisinovic.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   On page 26448 in yesterday's transcript, you explained how you

10     had been appointed to the police CSB of Doboj.  Do you remember that?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Since both of us speak the same language, I will have to ask you

13     that both of us make a pause between questions and answers for the

14     benefit of the interpreters.

15             Sir, that was in October 1999 [as interpreted]; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] It's recorded "1999," but we said

18     "1991."

19        Q.   Can you please confirm that.

20        A.   As of October 1991, after I had been working for the municipal

21     police, I started working at the Security Services Centre of Doboj, the

22     police department.

23        Q.   Sir, the proposal for your appointment to the police

24     administration of the CSB was made by the centre chief; is that right?

25        A.   Well, that's a possible procedure.  All of us received our

Page 26494

 1     written decisions on appointment from the headquarters of the Ministry of

 2     the Interior in Sarajevo.  However, it is possible that the formal

 3     nomination came from the CSB.

 4        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic was the then-chief of the centre; is that right?

 5        A.   At the time when I started working at the CSB, Mr. Bjelosevic was

 6     already holding the post of the chief of the centre.

 7        Q.   Tell me this:  You worked as an inspector in the uniformed police

 8     department; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Did that involve only uniformed police and the traffic police,

11     and were they the only ones who wore uniforms in this particular

12     department?

13        A.   Yes.  At the then-Republican Secretariat of the Interior, members

14     of the general police were wearing uniforms.  Those were police stations,

15     members of the traffic police who were engaged in safety and regulation

16     of traffic, and other members of the police, and also people working at

17     the secretariat itself.  That did not apply to people from the state

18     security centre and the CID who worked in plain clothes, as well as other

19     employees who didn't have specific authorisations, people who were

20     dealing with civilians and administrative matters.  They didn't wear any

21     uniforms either.

22        Q.   Where was your office exactly located in the CSB building?

23        A.   I shared an office with a colleague of mine, Emir Turajlic, who

24     was a fire-fighting inspector.  This office was on the second floor,

25     where the CSB security services were.  The police station was on the

Page 26495

 1     ground floor, and upstairs, on the first floor, there was the secretary

 2     of the public security station who later became the chief, and, on the

 3     second floor, where I was, there were services from the CSB, including

 4     the chief of the CSB and the police department and also the operations

 5     centre.  Above us, the State Security Service was on the top floor.

 6             So there were three floors in total, and I explained which

 7     services were located where.

 8        Q.   Tell me, where was your office in respect of the office of the

 9     CSB chief?

10        A.   Well, maybe there were four or five offices between us, but we

11     faced the same side of the building.  Actually, we were facing the inner

12     compound at the garages, whereas, the chief's office faced the main

13     street that used to be called Titova Street.  So we were some 20 or 15

14     metres apart on the same floor.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, on page 26451, you spoke, if I understood you

16     correctly, about the situation that there was a traditional in Doboj to

17     have a military garrison in town.  Do you remember that?

18        A.   Yes, that's what I said yesterday.  It is correct.

19        Q.   According to its position, Doboj has a certain strategic

20     significance; right?

21        A.   Yes.  Doboj is strategically important because there is a

22     regional railway hub which covered a wider area, in terms of the

23     then-Bosnia and Herzegovina.  In addition to that, it was the seat of

24     various regional health, education, and other institutions, the

25     Chamber of Commerce, et cetera.

Page 26496

 1             MR. ZECEVIC: [No interpretation]

 2             [In English]... if you could assist me, please.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm going to show you a number of documents.

 4             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please call up in e-court

 5     1D070636.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we have a tab number, please.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's tab number 1.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, this is a map that was shown to you during

 9     the interview with you in Sarajevo on the 6th of January of this year;

10     Friday last week.

11             I think that it was you who made these markings in various

12     felt-tip pencils in various colours, indicating the roads that lead out

13     of Doboj; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.

15        Q.   Sir, on page 26452 of yesterday's transcript, you said that you

16     knew that the commander of the garrison in Doboj at the time was

17     Mr. Cazim Hadzic, a lieutenant-colonel; right?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   Then, in response to a question posed by the Prosecutor, on that

20     same page, you spoke about -- and I would like to quote exactly what you

21     said, so I'm going to do it in English.

22             [In English] The question was:

23             "Are you telling us that these are stories?  Did you know that at

24     the time whether this was an actual fact?

25             "A.  Yes.  There were frequent moves of military vehicles.  There

Page 26497

 1     were military convoys, transporting equipment.  They were -- there were

 2     many convoys that were moving along these roads and going to these

 3     destinations.  That is a fact.  But there were many movements of the army

 4     that was undoubtedly coming from Serbia.  There were buses with licence

 5     plates that were full of troops and they were transiting through Doboj,

 6     together with military vehicles...," and so on and so forth.

 7             At the end you say:

 8             "It was quite intense, this migration of both troops and

 9     equipment."

10             [Interpretation] Do you recall saying this?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, it is true, isn't it, that through Doboj there is

13     the main road that leads to Sarajevo, Tuzla, Banja Luka, Zenica?

14        A.   Yes, it is true.

15        Q.   It is also a fact that towards the end of 1991, clashes broke out

16     between the Yugoslav People's Army and the Croatian forces in Croatia; is

17     that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You are aware of the fact that in the Autumn of 1991, when these

20     conflicts escalated, that the brotherhood and unity, a motorway that

21     connected Zagreb and Ljubljana was shut down?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Belgrade and Zagreb.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot tell you when the

24     road was closed, but the fact is that there was no traffic on that

25     section of the road.

Page 26498

 1             MR. ZECEVIC:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, you will agree with me, won't you, that the

 3     most logical alternative route that would connect the eastern parts of

 4     the former SFRY with its western parts, such as Dalmacija,

 5     norther Bosnia, Sarajevo, Croatia would have been the one that would go

 6     through Doboj; isn't that right?

 7        A.   Yes, that's right.

 8        Q.   So, since the JNA was withdrawing from Croatia and Slovenia at

 9     the time, and there were already clashes occurring, wasn't it only

10     logical to have reserve forces going through Doboj to the front line and

11     military heavy equipment being withdrawn through Doboj in the opposite

12     direction; right?

13        A.   [No interpretation]

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours -- sorry.

15             Your Honours, I would like to know how these questions -- I

16     hesitated to rise before, but I would like to know how these questions

17     are directly relevant to the topics that you have allowed in your

18     decision of the 15th December.

19             In your decision, you did specify that the fact that the topics

20     were limited also applied to the questions put by the Defence.  Now

21     looking at your decision the topic which has been generally allowed is

22     that Doboj was on the verge of being taken over, and that Mr. Hadzic was

23     the one who ordered this take-over.

24             And the seconds topic you allowed was about Mr. Bjelosevic's

25     presence in the month of May.

Page 26499

 1             Now, these questions seem to be going again to the general

 2     context.  What Mr. Zecevic covered with his witness, MS-001, the attacks

 3     in northern Bosnia, with Croatian towns:  Derventa, Bosanski Brod, et

 4     cetera.  So I'm not entirely sure this goes directly to the topics that

 5     you have allowed in your decision.

 6             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I'm just following the very -- I was

 8     quoting, actually, the question of Mr. Demirdjian, and the witness's

 9     answer.  So I'm exploring that part, and this is the -- directly related

10     to the first issue because the position of the OTP, as far as I can

11     understand their case, is that for a certain reason the military

12     equipment was brought to Doboj, the troops were brought to Doboj from

13     Serbia, including the paramilitaries, and so on and so forth, and that

14     is -- that was, actually, the preparation for the take-over of Doboj.

15     That is what I'm exploring.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, that is not exactly quite right.  When I

17     dealt with the military equipments yesterday, we dealt mainly with the

18     equipments that were available in Doboj municipality and in Doboj town.

19     So to be dealing with what's coming from Serbia, what's happening in the

20     north of Bosnia, is not directly relevant to this topic.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, on top of it, I'm entitled to

22     challenge the credibility of the witness.  Therefore, I would kindly ask

23     Mr. Demirdjian to -- to let me finish the -- the cross-examination of the

24     witness because we have a limited time.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Within a very narrow range, Mr. Zecevic.  I think I

Page 26500

 1     follow you that there is a overlap, for want of a better word, between

 2     the military supplies that were in Doboj and those that would have,

 3     because of the geography, have been passing through, if I understand you

 4     correctly.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC:  It is correct, Your Honour.  I appreciate it.

 6     Thank you very much.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Lisinovic, would you be so kind to answer my

 8     question, if can you remember it.

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  I cannot literally confirm your supposition that you

10     put forward, that the army and that the equipment were withdrawing and

11     that was the only reason for the replacement of forces.  I cannot confirm

12     that because neither now nor then can I be able to confirm ...

13        Q.   Sir, it's quite clear to me, you did tell us that you didn't have

14     any direct knowledge about military issues.  I asked you if you allow the

15     possibility that the reason for such a busy transit through Doboj was due

16     to the fact that the brotherhood and unity highway was closed and that

17     all the troops that were leaving from Sarajevo to Belgrade, or from

18     Dalmacija, northern Bosnia and Croatia had to pass through Doboj.  That

19     was my question.

20        A.   Well, not exactly everything.  There are other alternative

21     routes, but the fact is that Doboj can offer good transport facilities,

22     in terms of roads and railways.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   You're welcome.

25        Q.   Later on, during your yesterday's testimony, when asked by

Page 26501

 1     Mr. Demirdjian, and then, again, I will have to resort to English in

 2     order to give you the exact quotation:

 3             [In English] "A.  You're asking me about the military units, the

 4     Muslim and Croatian military unit?

 5             "Q.  Yes, in the municipal of Doboj.

 6             "A.  At the time in the Doboj municipality there were no military

 7     units, at least that is my position, no Muslim or Croatian military

 8     units."

 9             Then further down:

10             "A.  So there were these units that belonged to reserve police

11     station, together with their commanders, and these people were armed but

12     that was not the army.  It's a fact that in certain places there were

13     armed unit as early -- units as early as in September but these were not

14     army units.  This was not the military.  This is how I see things."

15             [Interpretation] Do you recall this testimony you provided

16     yesterday?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, did you ever hear of a formation that existed in

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1991 that called itself the Green Berets?

20        A.   I heard of the Green Berets during those critical days in

21     May 1992, not in 1991.  I heard rumours about the existence of such

22     units.  But that was in April or May 1992.

23        Q.   That they existed in the territory of Doboj?

24        A.   No, not in Doboj.

25        Q.   You have just told us that you heard rumours about the existence

Page 26502

 1     of such units.  I am asking you whether you heard those rumours in Doboj,

 2     rumours about the existence of those units?

 3        A.   I didn't hear stories about the existence of such units in Doboj.

 4     I didn't see them either.  But I heard rumours about their existence in

 5     general.

 6        Q.   Tell me, please, you hail from Kotorsko; right?

 7        A.   Yes, I was born in Kotorsko.  That's where I resided until 1989.

 8     From 1989 until the beginning of war, I lived in the centre of Doboj, not

 9     far from the police station building.

10        Q.   In the year 1992, your family, or, rather, your parents still

11     lived in Kotorsko; right?

12        A.   Yes, my parents and my brother.

13        Q.   If I remember it correctly, when you assumed your duties in the

14     CSB you had just returned from the 1st May holiday that you had spent in

15     Kotorsko; right?

16        A.   Yes.  On the 2nd of May, in the morning, I left and I returned to

17     Doboj in the afternoon.  I went to visit my parents.  I went on a weekend

18     break, as it were.

19        Q.   Are you familiar with somebody called Mirsad Karamehic [phoen]?

20     Let me jog your memory:  He was the commander of the TO in Kotorsko.

21        A.   Mirsad Karamehic?

22        Q.   Yes, Mirsad Karamehic.

23        A.   I can't say anything about that.  I really don't know.  I don't

24     think that there was a TO there.  There was a war police station.

25        Q.   If there had been a war police station, you would have certainly

Page 26503

 1     known your colleague, the commander of that police station, because he

 2     was your colleague.

 3        A.   Yes.  Shaban Ibrikovic was the commander of that police station.

 4     I'm not familiar with any TO structure in Kotorsko.

 5        Q.   Does the name Mirsad Huskic ring a bell?  His nickname was Dujo.

 6     He was also one of the commanders of the Kotorsko Territorial Defence.

 7        A.   There are several men who bear the same name, Mirsad Huskic, but

 8     none of them is nicknamed Dujo.  There is a citizen who bears the

 9     nickname Dujo but his family name is not Huskic.

10        Q.   Do you know that one of those Huskics that you are familiar with,

11     and there are several of them, as you say yourself, was a member of the

12     Territorial Defence, i.e., of the military unit in Kotorsko?

13        A.   I really don't know that.

14        Q.   Do you know the name Fuhad Kasavehic [phoen]?  Does that ring a

15     bell?  He also hails from Kotorsko.

16        A.   There's no such a family name in Kotorsko at all.  Kasavehic,

17     there is nobody by that family name in Kotorsko.

18        Q.   Very well.  Does the name Amir Fazlic ring a bell?  His nickname

19     was Ado.

20        A.   Again, that's another family name that doesn't exist in Kotorsko.

21     Fazlics do not live in Kotorsko.

22        Q.   Very well.  What about Fikret Lisinovic?  Does that ring a bell?

23        A.   Yes, I know him.  He is my relative.

24        Q.   Do you know that in early 1992 he was a member of the HMO of

25     Bosnian Posavina?

Page 26504

 1        A.   When?

 2        Q.   In 1992.  In April 1992, he was a member of the HMVO

 3     [as interpreted] Bosnian Posavina?

 4        A.   No I don't know that, really.

 5        Q.   What about Johovac?  Is that a Croatian village?

 6        A.   Yes.  It is a Croatian village next to Kotorsko.

 7        Q.   Do you know anything about the existence of a military formation

 8     under the name of the 4th Military Company in Johovac that belonged to

 9     the Croatian Territorial Defence?

10        A.   No, I really don't know anything about that.

11        Q.   Very well.  Let us now look at the second map that you marked,

12     1D07064.  0634.

13             Sir, this is something I need to explain for the benefit of the

14     Trial Chamber.  This is an enlarged part of the Exhibit P1344 which is a

15     map of Doboj.

16             Sir, this map was shown to you -- I apologise, it's tab 2.

17             This map was shown to you during the interview in Sarajevo on the

18     6th of January.  The lines in three different colours were made by you.

19     Do you remember that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Sir, the markings, or, rather, what you have framed in yellow

22     depicts the territory that was inhabited predominantly by what ethnic

23     group?

24        A.   These are areas that were inhabited by Croats, the yellow spots.

25        Q.   And the red colour, what does that denote?

Page 26505

 1        A.   Bosniak population.

 2        Q.   And then the black colour?

 3        A.   The Serbian population.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   You're welcome.

 6        Q.   Sir, just a while ago we discussed the strategic significance or

 7     the strategic position, rather, of Doboj in geographic and traffic terms.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The fact is, is it not, that in the course of April 1992, the

10     main road leading towards the east, towards Bijeljina, was cut off in

11     Modrica; right?

12        A.   I know nothing about that.  The main road leading to Modrica is

13     the Samac-Doboj road, so it's not a road leading to Bijeljina.  And I

14     really don't know that the Samac-Doboj road was ever cut off in Modrica.

15     I really don't know that.

16        Q.   Do you know that in April the road leading towards Banja Luka was

17     cut off in Derventa?

18        A.   In April, fighting was already going on in Derventa, so there is

19     such a possibility, but I can't say anything about the dates.  I allow

20     for that possibility in -- Derventa was in war in the month of April.  I

21     don't know that the road was cut off.  I don't know who did it or why.

22        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, isn't it true that in mid-April there were clashes

23     in Bosanski Samac?

24        A.   I believe that already in February 1992 the bridge over the

25     Sava river in Bosanski Samac was blown up.  And after that, armed clashes

Page 26506

 1     ensued.  I can't really say anything about the dates that you are

 2     mentioning.  But it is true that Bosanski Samac was already struck by war

 3     developments.

 4        Q.   Isn't it true, Mr. Lisinovic, that in the month of April Odzak

 5     was taken by the Croatian forces?

 6        A.   Whatever was happening in Samac, Brod, and Derventa also

 7     reflected on Odzak.  This is a belt.  Odzak is on the Sava river, in

 8     terms of its territory, so I really can't confirm that that was in

 9     mid-April.  But there is a strong link between all the developments that

10     were taking place along the Sava river which also included Odzak.

11        Q.   You certainly know that Bosanski Brod was attacked and that it

12     was taken in the month of March 1992 also by the Croatian forces.

13        A.   As for the situation in Bosanski Brod from the point of view of a

14     police employee, I can tell you that down there we had a management

15     crisis.  Our management left us.  They left the public security station

16     there.

17        Q.   Sir, that's a different story.  I'm asking you about what you

18     know about the Croatian forces having attacked Bosanski Brod and having

19     taken the territory before April 1992.

20        A.   I don't know that.

21        Q.   Do you know that from the months of February and March Serb

22     refugees started coming to Doboj from the territories of Bosanski Brod

23     and Derventa from where they had been expelled?

24        A.   I know that refugees came from the Posavina region.  But not just

25     Serbs, but also Bosniaks.  That's a fact.

Page 26507

 1        Q.   Okay.  It's only logical because they had been expelled by the

 2     Croatian troops.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, this really objects.  I don't see

 4     at all how this evidence is directly related to the rebuttal topics.  I

 5     admit maybe at the beginning some of it was slightly related but now

 6     we're really going out of Doboj and the topics related to the take-over.

 7             So I really must object at this point.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.  Where are we going?

 9             MR. ZECEVIC:  I understand, Your Honours.  I was just setting out

10     the foundation.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, as far as the Security Services Centre is

12     concerned, you named nine municipal public security stations that were

13     part of the Security Services Centre.  Do you recall that testimony?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The fact is, is it not, that in April 1992, virtually none of

16     those public security stations functioned properly.  There was no

17     communication between any of them and the CSB.  There was no joint work,

18     as it were?

19        A.   As war spilled over and started approaching the territory of

20     Doboj, and as war developments spread, it is true that the police

21     authorities lost their significance.  Communication was frequently

22     interrupted as a result of the war that had already started.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, you also spoke about the problems

24     and misunderstandings that you had between the CSB and the public

25     security stations in Maglaj and Tesanj?  Just tell us whether you recall

Page 26508

 1     that there were problems.

 2        A.   Yes.  Last week after your colleagues talked to me about

 3     Posavina, they also asked me about the other territory in the interior of

 4     the state.  Yes, I did mention a case that I remembered at the time and I

 5     spoke to your colleagues.

 6        Q.   So you can confirm that there were problems?

 7        A.   Yes, I can.

 8        Q.   On page 26456, again, I will revert to English, to the question

 9     about relationships within the garrison in Doboj, you answered:

10             [In English] "I do not have exact information about their mutual

11     relations.  Why would I?  However, as a person who was a commander of the

12     defence of the town, Major Stankovic was the one who declared himself as

13     the one in Doboj and in the surrounding area.  One could judge by his

14     public appearances when he spoke on the radio and how citizens saw him

15     and received him.  I don't know how that came to happen, but, really, he

16     was announced to be the commander of the defence of Doboj.  He was not

17     the commander of the barracks, but as for their relations, I couldn't

18     talk about that because I really wouldn't know."

19             [Interpretation] Do you recall this testimony?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Tell me, please, you have mentioned some public appearances by

22     Major Stankovic, based on which you gained an impression about his role

23     and significance.  Did you personally attend those public appearances?

24        A.   I was referring to some shows that I heard on the local radio,

25     Radio Doboj.

Page 26509

 1        Q.   He declared himself officially during those radio shows as the

 2     commander of the defence of the city of Doboj.

 3        A.   I cannot confirm that he stated for the media, I am the commander

 4     of the defence of the city of Doboj.  This is not what I said.  He just

 5     rose and became a star, as it were, during the days leading up to the

 6     beginning of the war.  That was the citizens' impression and perception.

 7     I didn't really say that it was ever published.

 8        Q.   So the citizens perceived him as being the commander of the

 9     defence of the town of Doboj?

10        A.   Right.

11        Q.   Tell me now:  If somebody is a commander of the defence of a

12     town, who was he defending the town from?

13        A.   It was never clear to me.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on page 26466, and I'm going to read it in

15     English again.  This question was asked by the OTP:

16              "[In English] And on that day, did you hear of any order issued

17     by the army, by the garrison, Doboj, in relation to the security

18     situation?

19             "A.  About the attack?

20             "Q.  Yes.

21             "A.  Not about the attack, but there were some pacifying

22     statements addressing the citizens by the head of municipality and the

23     top army officers to the effect there would be no war ..."

24             And further:

25             "... but as for any formal orders to attack or anything like

Page 26510

 1     that, that did not exist."

 2             [Interpretation] Do you recall part of this evidence of yours?

 3        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's what I said.

 4        Q.   Mr. Lisinovic, can you tell me, please, if I understood you

 5     correctly, you were not aware of the existence of an order issued to the

 6     effect of taking the town of Doboj on the 2nd of May?

 7        A.   No, I am not aware of that.  Why would I go to the work in the

 8     afternoon of that day?

 9        Q.   If you didn't know about the existence of any order, then it

10     makes sense that you don't know either who this order was issued by?

11        A.   Yes, that makes sense.

12        Q.   On page 26466, sir, you spoke about how these masked men entered

13     the CSB on the night between the 2nd and the 3rd of May and how they came

14     to your office as well.  And I'm going to cite your words in English:

15             [In English] "I had to stand against the wall and they frisked me

16     and they took it away.  So I sat there for another half an hour.  I could

17     hear that they were breaking the doors and safes down the corridor.  Then

18     they took me to the ground floor ..."

19             [Interpretation] Sir, do you remember this testimony?

20        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

21        Q.   So while you were sitting in the duty office for half an hour

22     complying with what they had told you to do, answering the phone and

23     other things, you heard them breaking down doors and breaking into safes

24     at the CSB.  Your office was on the second floor of the CSB; that's

25     right?

Page 26511

 1        A.   Yes, that's right.  And I could hear that several doors were

 2     broken down.  At least how I interpreted this noise because I couldn't

 3     see anything.  I was either sitting or standing next to the wall.  But

 4     one could hear this noise, and I believe that that noise came from

 5     breaking the doors.  Maybe something else was broken, but that's what one

 6     could hear of these breaking noises.

 7        Q.   Are you trying to say that they were broken in to the offices of

 8     the CSB?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right.

10        Q.   Yes, thank you.

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, if there's no objection I would like

12     to tender this document which is still on our -- on our monitors because

13     it reflects the witness's testimony about the ethnic composition of the

14     surroundings of Doboj.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No objections, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, Your Honour.  This will be an

18     exhibit, 1D817.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Zecevic, the previously marked map you didn't

20     intend to tender that, did you?

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  No, Your Honours.  But I'm perfectly willing to do

22     that if it will assist Your Honours.  I didn't thought that -- I'm

23     satisfied with what I have on the -- on the record.

24             JUDGE HALL:  On the record.  Thanks.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much.

Page 26512

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zecevic, could you remind me of the

 2     tab number of the one you just tendered?

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  It's tab number 2, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated] thank you.

 5             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Sir, among other things, I saw from your previous statements that

 7     in certain situations you rendered assistance to the duty service and

 8     that you also, yourself, sometimes acted as a duty officer.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that duty service compiled daily reports about the events

11     taking place in the territory of the CSB; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13        Q.   And these daily reports were compiled on the basis of the daily

14     log into which the duty operations officer entered everything that took

15     place, and then the most important things would be extracted at the end

16     of the day from that log-book and a report compiled.

17        A.   Yes.  Roughly speaking, that was the procedure.

18        Q.   And these daily reports, after having been compiled, were then

19     forwarded to the MUP in Sarajevo; is that correct?

20        A.   The daily reports were first sent to the chief of the centre and

21     to the heads of these two departments in the centre.  I'm talking about

22     the public and State Security Services.  And based on the instruction or

23     reporting that was valid in the whole of state, these reports had to be

24     forwarded to the MUP in Sarajevo by means of a dispatch sent every

25     morning.  That was the reporting procedure.

Page 26513

 1        Q.   And all of that lasted, as far as you know, until the

 2     2nd of May, 1992?

 3        A.   Yes.  I know that because I was occasionally involved in this

 4     kind of work if any of my colleagues was absent.  But, generally

 5     speaking, I know that that was the common practice of reporting applied

 6     in the centre.

 7             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 8     P1344.  That's tab number 3.

 9        Q.   Sir, while we are waiting for this map to appear, are you

10     familiar with a place called Ankare or a part of the territory in the

11     vicinity of Doboj that goes by that name?

12        A.   Yes.  I was asked this same question last week.  I know that

13     there is a locality called Ankare, but I believe that that is, in fact,

14     one part of the Cair local commune.  It is practically a hill above

15     Doboj, 5 or 6 kilometres to the north or north-west.  Yes, I am familiar

16     with that locality, and that is the place where people from Doboj built

17     their weekend cottages.  So I know that that was a place where people

18     normally spent their weekends.  Those were privately owned houses by

19     Doboj residents.

20        Q.   So if I understood you correctly, nobody lived there on a

21     permanent basis.  People would go there only at weekends?

22        A.   In that part which is called Cair, which was kind of centre of

23     that area, people lived permanently.  However, I don't think that anyone

24     lived in Ankare, that they only had weekend cottages that they

25     occasionally visited.  I think that was the situation.

Page 26514

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to read what was said on page 26459, and I

 2     have to go back to English.  The question referred to paramilitary units

 3     such as the White Eagles and the like.  And this is your response:

 4             [In English] "But whether it was really like that and whether all

 5     that really existed, this is something I couldn't say, not having any

 6     evidence about it."

 7             Then the question:

 8             "Very well.  One of the first units you mentioned was

 9     Seselj's Men and White Eagles.  Do you have any report of their present

10     [sic]?"

11             "Presence," probably:

12             "A.  I did not have specific reports.  I just remember a

13     situation.  The sleepers from railway track between Doboj and Modrica had

14     gone missing between Busletic and Kostajnica villages, and I think that

15     there was this report about the wooden sleepers from the railway tracks

16     that had gone missing and then stories were going around that the

17     paramilitaries -- that the paramilitary units had taken that for their

18     own needs but whether that was based on anything, this is something I

19     couldn't tell.  Once again, it was just a rumour practically."

20             [Interpretation] Do you recall this portion of your testimony?

21     And then further on, on page 26460.

22             [In English] "But judging by the report and items gone missing,

23     Busletic and Kostajnica and Grapska villages were mentioned so that was

24     the area.  If the criminal investigation section investigated that, maybe

25     they proved something about it, but as I told you, I really don't have

Page 26515

 1     any information about it."

 2             [Interpretation] Do you remember this?

 3        A.   Yes, this is exactly what I said.

 4        Q.   Sir, would be so kind as to look at the map that is in front of

 5     you.

 6             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Could this map please be enlarged,

 7     particularly this area around Doboj, for the benefit of the witness.  I

 8     am talking about the bottom part of the map.  [In English] Lower part.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, could you

10     please mark with number 1 the place where Ankare is located.  And then

11     can you please roughly mark the railway that goes from Busletic,

12     Kostajnica, and Grapska.  So put a cross and number 1.  That would

13     indicate the location of Ankare, to begin with.  You can do it roughly.

14     I'm not expecting anything precise.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Thank you.  And now can you draw a line next to which you will

17     put number 2, that would indicate the Busletic-Kostajnica-Grapska railway

18     line.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   All right.  Put the number 2 next to it.  Thank you very much.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  Can we have this exhibited, please.

22             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D818, Your Honours.

24             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Sir I'm going to read to you an extract from a report about an

Page 26516

 1     incident and I'm going to do that in order to refresh your memory, if

 2     possible.  If you can just give me a moment.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] That's 1D070606, tab number 4.

 4        Q.   You have it in front of you.

 5             Somewhere in the middle of the document, this is what you say,

 6     or, actually, this is what is being said.  That's the last-but-one

 7     paragraph which starts with the words, "At the same time ...":

 8              "At the same time, the railway station master in Doboj reported

 9     that military reservists at the railway station Grapska were in stealing

10     large number of sleepers.  In both incidents, military organs were

11     informed in order to undertake measures that fall within the jurisdiction

12     of the JNA."

13             Can you see that portion?

14        A.   Yes, I can.

15        Q.   Sir, this is a report about the incidents that happened on the

16     night between the 22nd and 23rd April 1992.  It says that Boro Kopcic,

17     Mirza Lisinovic, and Branislav Petricevic were on duty at the time, and

18     your name is typed here as the name of the duty operations officer.  Is

19     this your signature?

20        A.   Well, last week I had some reservations about the signature, but

21     I think it is my signature.  And what is written in the right-hand corner

22     is definitely my signature.  As for what is written down there, this is

23     not my signature -- my handwriting --

24        Q.   All I'm interested in is the quantity of wooden material that

25     were being stolen.  That's what I'm interested in.

Page 26517

 1        A.   I suppose that this coincides with what I was saying, based on

 2     what I remember.

 3        Q.   So this is the incident that you spoke about yesterday.  It is

 4     possible that this is the same incident that you talked about yesterday,

 5     involving those sleepers.  Is that possible?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 9     tender this document into evidence.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No objections, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D819, Your Honours.

13             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Sir, yesterday you also spoke about your meeting, the meeting

15     that you had with the CSB chief, Mr. Bjelosevic, on the 18th of May, in

16     the building in Doboj.  Do you remember that?  Of course you do.

17        A.   Of course I do.

18        Q.   Tell me, please, can you remember the name of Mr. Bjelosevic's

19     secretary or personal assistant?

20        A.   It's my big problem to remember names.

21        Q.   Well, I share your problem.

22             Does the name Mira Vujic ring a bell or perhaps Snezana whose

23     family name started with a D?

24        A.   Yes, I know the two ladies, but it was neither of them.  Mira

25     used to work in the state security; I know her personally.  And I also

Page 26518

 1     know Snezana.  It was another person, neither of the two you just

 2     mentioned.

 3        Q.   Very well.  On page 26463, and I will again read your answer in

 4     English, you spoke about the situation in the CSB as it was in April,

 5     when you said the people stopped coming to work.  They were on holidays,

 6     on sick-leave, and similar things.

 7             And then you say:

 8             [In English] "... during the months of, I don't know, March and

 9     April.  So that, for example, Mr. Krnjic and Mr. Bilic stopped working.

10     They stopped coming to work and had already been in Croatia a long time

11     before the critical moment of the 2nd May in the evening.  So two top

12     officials."

13             And further, page 26464:

14             "Q.  Could you tell the Court whether you learned about the

15     reasons why Mr. Krnjic and Bilic stopped coming to work?

16             "A.  Well, they were concerned about their own security.  Namely,

17     it happened that the chief of the municipal criminal investigation

18     section of the police, Mato Krizic, was kidnapped from the street in the

19     typical manner while he was coming to the work.  The army did that, and

20     they held him for a few days in some sort of isolation, we don't know

21     where, and then they released him.  And that influenced a number of

22     people to stop living in Doboj, let alone come to work ...," and so on

23     and so forth.

24             And then further:

25             "And generally speaking, that was a period when people, believing

Page 26519

 1     that the war would break out, were leaving the area to go somewhere where

 2     they felt more secure and that includes police chiefs and regular

 3     policemen."

 4             [Interpretation] Do you recall this testimony?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   And now please tell me, this gentleman, Krizic, who was

 7     kidnapped --

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   -- what was his position in the CSB?

10        A.   He was a member of the public security station.  He was the chief

11     of the crime prevention police.

12        Q.   Was he kidnapped several times or was this a one-off?

13        A.   On his way to work, he was kidnapped.  He was missing for a few

14     days, then he turned up at work, and he him, himself, told us that he had

15     been kidnapped by the military.  And then he was arrested on either the

16     2nd or the 3rd of May.  I heard that when I was released from prison,

17     that he was again in prison.  He never left Doboj.  That's what I'm

18     saying.

19        Q.   Sir, I'm going to show you a document under tab 5, 1D070602.

20     This is another report or a bulletin and I'm going to show you to try and

21     jog your memory.

22             This is a bulletin or a report issued by the duty operations

23     officer of the Doboj CSB on the 19th and 20th of April, 1992.  The

24     officers on duty were Slavko Tambic and Samir [as interpreted] Mahmic.

25     You will see Samir Mahmic's signature on the second page.  Do you

Page 26520

 1     remember these two colleagues?

 2        A.   Of course, I remember them.  They were seasoned officers much

 3     older than me and they were on duty quite often.

 4        Q.   They were operation officers.  Look at the third paragraph from

 5     the top where it says:

 6             "The exchange of Mato Krizic which was to have taken place was

 7     postponed to a later date by both Bosnjak, Bosanski Brod via radio

 8     communications at 0930 hours.  At 1800 hours, Lieutenant-Colonel Cazim

 9     Hadzic called and said that the abductors had sent a message that Mato

10     Krizic was alive and well and that his family should also be informed of

11     this and that the abductors had left room open for an exchange until 1500

12     hours on 20 April 1992.  Lieutenant-Colonel Hadzic also called about the

13     exchange at 2050 hours and requested contact with the chief of the CSB,

14     of which the chief was informed by phone."

15             In this report, it is stated that Mato Krizic was arrested, or,

16     rather, abducted, sometime in the second half of the month of April and

17     that that occurred in Bosanski Brod.  And then the military, or, rather,

18     Lieutenant-Colonel Cazim Hadzic negotiated with the abductors from

19     Bosanski Brod with regard to the release of Mato Krizic.

20        A.   Can I answer?

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I mean, just for the transcript, I heard here

22     that Mr. Zecevic was reading that the abduction occurred in Bosanski

23     Brod.  That is not exactly what the document says.  It says that the

24     exchange which was to have taken place was postponed to a later date by

25     Bosanski Brod.  So the document does not say that the abduction took

Page 26521

 1     place in Bosanski Brod.  Just to clarify that.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Perhaps the witness can answer that.  In our

 3     language, it was quite clear what it means.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Mr. Krizic was

 5     abducted in the morning on the street in Doboj as he was going to work.

 6             As for the circumstances, they seem realistic.  There must have

 7     been negotiations and the terms of release were negotiated.

 8             Mr. Krizic is still alive.  You can talk to him.  What I know is

 9     that he was abducted in Doboj as he was walking to work.  I don't doubt

10     the authenticity of this report at all.

11             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   No, no, I agree.  But let me read this to you:

13             "The exchange of Mato Krizic which was to have taken place was

14     postponed to a later date by Bosanski Brod ..."

15        A.   I really don't understand this.  I'm not clear on this, but I

16     know that this Semiz Mahmic also leaves in Sarajevo at a certain address,

17     and if there's something in dispute, why don't you ask him?  The man is

18     alive, and he is the author of this report.  He is a retired police

19     officer.  I'm really not clear on what it says here.  This is not my

20     report.

21        Q.   No, no, I really understand --

22        A.   I really don't understand.

23        Q.   I'm just trying to jog your memory, and I'm not claiming that you

24     should know all this.  I'm just trying to confirm what you know and what

25     you can corroborate.

Page 26522

 1             The fact is, therefore, that the incident happened in the second

 2     half of April, right, that Mato Krizic was abducted at that time?

 3        A.   Well, on the 19th of April there is a report talking about the

 4     negotiations to exchange him, so I don't know where he had been until

 5     then.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at the last paragraph on this same page,

 7     on page 1.  I believe that it should be the second page in English.  Or

 8     perhaps no.  Yes, it is.  The second page, starting with, "The duty

 9     operations officer..."  This is the third paragraph from the top of the

10     English text where it says:

11              "The duty officer at the Doboj garrison informed us that a

12     helicopter would land at the Sloga football club stadium to pick up a

13     wounded person from the hospital.  All duty services and reserve police

14     stations in town were informed about that."

15        A.   These are the war police stations.  That's what the SRM

16     abbreviation stands for.  I apologise.

17        Q.   I'm going to give you the time to answer.  Please don't interrupt

18     me while I'm reading for a document.

19        A.   I apologise.

20        Q.   It says here:

21             "The helicopter landed and took off between 2220 hours and

22     2230 hours.  After the helicopter took off, Captain Grujic from the Doboj

23     garrison informed me that the helicopter had been fired at from the

24     direction of the town centre, and he passed on

25     Lieutenant-Colonel Hadzic's warning that if this happened again he would

Page 26523

 1     level the location with artillery, and that those who fired the shots

 2     should be found.  I requested from the Doboj SJB duty service that they

 3     identify the location from which the shots had been fired and the

 4     possible perpetrators."

 5             Do you perhaps remember this incident, Mr. Lisinovic?

 6        A.   I apologise for having interrupted you a while ago.

 7             I don't have any reason to doubt the authenticity of the complete

 8     daily report which includes this paragraph.  The report covers a lot of

 9     different events.  I know that helicopters landed at the Sloga football

10     stadium, and it is quite possible that something like this happened.  Two

11     colleagues of mine put it in writing, as you can see.  Really, I can't

12     say that I am aware of this particular incident.  I can only confirm that

13     helicopters did land for various reasons.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honour, I see the time.  I have perhaps

16     another ten minutes after the break.

17             JUDGE HALL:  Yes.  So we take the break now, to resume in 20

18     minutes.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Just for the record, Your Honours, the

23     Prosecution has been reinforced by the presence of Ms. Korner.

24             JUDGE HALL:  Noted.  Thank you.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 26524

 1             JUDGE HALL:  Ten minutes, you said, Mr. Zecevic.

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  Yes.  I will try my best, Your Honours.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Lisinovic, just a few more questions about

 4     the document that is before us.

 5             It says that shots came from the town centre.  Which part of the

 6     town centre is Carsija in Doboj?

 7        A.   Actually, it's a neighbourhood in the very centre of the town of

 8     Doboj close to the old fort.  It's on an elevated ground, but it is in

 9     the very centre of Doboj.

10        Q.   What is the ethnic composition of that neighbourhood?

11        A.   A majority of the population are Bosniak.  But there were no

12     fences there.  Everybody could buy a house or an apartment there.  But it

13     just so happens that the neighbourhood is predominantly Bosniak.

14        Q.   Sir, just a little while ago, we were talking about Mato Krizic

15     and his abduction.  And we can see that Lieutenant-Colonel Cazim Hadzic

16     and chief of the CSB were involved in the process to liberate him.

17        A.   Yes, I can see that in the text.

18        Q.   Let me take you back to your testimony yesterday about Mr. Krnjic

19     and about Mr. Bilic who were also high police officials, and according to

20     you, they stopped working long before the 2nd of May.  They were

21     concerned about their own safety.  And then you gave us the example of

22     Mr. Krizic.  Do you allow for the possibility that Mr. Krnjic and

23     Mr. Bilic stopped working for another reason, not for the reason of

24     safety concern?

25        A.   I didn't talk to them about the reasons why they stopped working.

Page 26525

 1     I would like to emphasise that.

 2        Q.   So you allow for another possibility.  You allow for the

 3     possibility that other reasons were involved?

 4        A.   Yes.  I know that in April, people stopped seeing them around

 5     Doboj.  It was my assumption when I stated what I did.  I said that they

 6     were already in Croatia.  I didn't know that in April.  I learned some of

 7     those things only subsequently, after the end of the war.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

10     like to tender this document, this report, into evidence.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No objection, Your Honours ...[Microphone not

12     activated].

13             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit 1D820, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZECEVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Sir, the fact is, isn't it, that as we could see from your

17     testimony, both yesterday and today, that the situation at the CSB in

18     Doboj in April 1992 was very problematic.  In other words, that there

19     were a lot of problems in communications with the public security

20     stations that should have been under the umbrella of the CSB which

21     effectively were not operating due to the war.  Then there was the lack

22     of personnel, et cetera.

23             Do you agree with that?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   When you went to see Mr. Bjelosevic on the 18th of May, you said

Page 26526

 1     that you were sitting at his secretary office for about five minutes, and

 2     then you had a conversation with Mr. Bjelosevic which lasted about

 3     ten minutes; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

 5        Q.   And that was the one and only time that you saw him during that

 6     period, up to July 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.  That was the only time I went to the building at -- at all,

 8     but we did see each other earlier.  However, this was our only meeting.

 9        Q.   Isn't it true that on that occasion, Mr. Bjelosevic told you

10     this:  Look, you can see what the situation is at the CSB.  You see that

11     the services are not operational.  And that you said, Yes, I concede

12     myself.

13             Do you remember that part of the conversation?

14        A.   I really cannot remember.  There's too many details.  So,

15     honestly, I cannot remember.

16        Q.   But how, then, do you remember that he told you that no member of

17     other ethnicity apart from Serbs could work at the CSB?

18        A.   Well, that was a prelude that led to my dismissal or resignation.

19     I handed over the keys to my office and to the safe after that, and then

20     I went home.

21        Q.   You remember that part clearly, but you don't remember the rest

22     of it?

23        A.   No, I don't.

24        Q.   On that occasion, Mr. Bjelosevic was in a military uniform;

25     right?

Page 26527

 1        A.   I really cannot say.

 2        Q.   Well, it is customary that the chief of the centre would be in

 3     civilian clothes.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   But you don't remember that on the 18th of May, Mr. Bjelosevic

 6     was wearing a military uniform?

 7        A.   I really don't know, and I cannot remember at all.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   You're welcome.

10             MR. ZECEVIC:  Your Honours, I have no other questions for this

11     witness.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE HALL:  Re-examination?

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, very briefly, Your Honours.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Lisinovic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Earlier on today, Mr. Zecevic asked you about -- questions about

18     roads being cut off.  And if you remember, he asked you about the road

19     leading towards Banja Luka, where that one was cut off.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can I show you a map, which is 65 ter 10134, please.

22             And while the map is being pulled out, could you tell the Court

23     which municipality was directly to the west of Doboj?

24        A.   Well, I'm not sure how to explain this.

25             To the north is Derventa -- can you please zoom in.

Page 26528

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let's go to the northern part, so zoom into the

 2     centre of that map.  A little bit more, please.  Maybe we can zoom one

 3     more time into the centre of the map.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Does that help?

 5        A.   So, to the west, are the municipalities of Prnjavor, Celinac,

 6     Teslic.  These are the municipalities.

 7             I would just like to add that Teslic was part of the CSB, Doboj

 8     centre, whereas the area of Prnjavor and Celinac fell under the territory

 9     of Banja Luka.

10        Q.   Very well.  Did you have any information at the time, in April or

11     May 1992, as to which forces had these municipalities under their

12     control?  And I'm talking about Prnjavor, Teslic and Celinac, as you just

13     mentioned.

14        A.   These are predominantly Serb municipalities and, at the moment, I

15     cannot give you an answer as to who controlled those areas.

16        Q.   Do you see a road going from Doboj to Banja Luka on this map?

17        A.   Concerning the roads leading from Doboj to Banja Luka, there are

18     several of them.  There's a road that leads from Doboj to Teslic and then

19     Kotor Varos, [indiscernible], and Banja Luka.  That's one route.

20             Another route is the one that leads from Doboj to Rudanka, the

21     village of Dubranka [phoen].  And then have you to turn left, via Stanovi

22     and Stanari, and then you reach Prnjavor and Banja Luka.

23             The third route goes from the town of Derventa via Prnjavor and

24     Laktasi to Banja Luka.  So these were the three roads that were in use at

25     the time, and they're still in use.

Page 26529

 1        Q.   Very well.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We can put this map away.

 3        Q.   Just a few minutes ago --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, is this -- is this map exhibited?

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It's already -- a marked version is already

 6     exhibited as 1D20.  So we don't need to --

 7             MR. ZECEVIC:  Okay.  Thank you.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 9        Q.   Yes, Mr. Lisinovic, just a few minutes ago, you were asked about

10     the town of Carsija and the town centre.

11             Is Carsija the only neighbourhood that constitutes the town

12     centre of Doboj?

13        A.   No.  The centre of Doboj is a broader area than that of Carsija.

14     So it's larger than Carsija itself.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we pull up 65 ter 3164, please.

16        Q.   You will see in a minute a map of the centre of the town, or of

17     the town of Doboj.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  If we could zoom in.

19        Q.   And with the assistance of the usher, if you could mark for us,

20     if this map can help, what you consider to be the centre of Doboj.

21             Shall we zoom in a little bit more for you or ...

22             Can you see on the screen?

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we go -- can we -- yes.

24        Q.   Is that zoomed enough for you?

25             Do you see the main road that goes through the town, first of

Page 26530

 1     all?

 2             Can you mark that main road, if you have located it.

 3        A.   [In English] This is not ... [Interpretation] It's difficult for

 4     me to find my bearings.

 5        Q.   Can you see the bridge, first of all, on this map?  The bridge

 6     that leads into the town.

 7        A.   [In English] Ah, yes.  Yes, yes, yes.

 8        Q.   And does the main road lead from the bridge?

 9        A.   Mm-hm.

10        Q.   Okay.  So if you could mark the main road with the pen.

11        A.   [Interpretation] Just a moment, please.

12        Q.   Now, can you encircle the area that you consider to be the

13     centre?

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   So that would be the centre --

16        A.   More or less.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... [indiscernible] and where is

18     Carsija exactly?

19        A.   I think that it's here at the top of this circle --

20        Q.   Can you mark --

21        A.   -- roughly speaking.

22        Q.   Can you mark that up too?  Maybe with the number 1.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Now when we talk about the town centre of Doboj, what other

25     neighbourhoods constitute this town centre?

Page 26531

 1        A.   So, roughly speaking, if we take this street that enters the town

 2     across the bridge over the Bosna River as the bench-mark, this would

 3     indicate the main street, Marsala Tita street, such as the court-house,

 4     the police, prosecutors's office, insurance companies, a hotel,

 5     et cetera.  Then further on, there's a Catholic church, and the area to

 6     the left of that street, which encompasses the neighbourhood of Stadium.

 7     So to the right of that street is a town market and some other

 8     institutions.

 9             Now, Carsija and another area to the right that leads towards the

10     Pijeskovi neighbourhood is there.  But that latter one can already be

11     considered as a suburb.

12             So that would be, more or less, what constituted the centre of

13     the town, as far as I see it.

14        Q.   And the area of your building, the police building, the court,

15     was that also considered to be town centre?

16        A.   Yes, of course.  The very centre of town.

17        Q.   So in relation to the report that you were shown earlier about a

18     helicopter being fired at, is it your position that the town centre, the

19     shooting could have come from any position from the town centre that you

20     just marked.

21             MR. ZECEVIC:  I really have to object.

22             The -- the witness said he doesn't have the reason to doubt the

23     authenticity of the report.  He wasn't aware of the -- of that specific

24     incident.  And the report says clearly it's Carsija.  So this will be

25     calling for speculation.

Page 26532

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I apologise --

 2             MR. ZECEVIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Maybe I don't have --

 4             MR. ZECEVIC:  So perhaps, perhaps what would be even better is

 5     that the -- that Mr. Demirdjian asks the witness to explain what Carsija

 6     means as -- as a word in -- in -- in the language.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, it appears that the translation is

 8     incorrect.  The English translation doesn't have the word "Carsija."  So

 9     I may have been misled by the translation itself.  So ...

10             Let me just ...

11             MR. ZECEVIC:  Well, I read the document.  I read that part on --

12     on the transcript, so let me just find it.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No.  I remember the transcript.  It seems that

14     the translation provided does not include the English version, which is

15     the one I relied upon.

16             On that basis, Your Honours, I -- we don't have to tender this

17     map.

18             That's all I ask.  Thank you.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Lisinovic, we thank you for your testimony

21     before the Tribunal.  You are now released.  We wish you a safe journey

22     back to your home.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. ZECEVIC:  Just one second, this map that the witness was

Page 26533

 1     drawing upon, has it been exhibited?

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No it hasn't.  We might as well tender it.

 3             MR. ZECEVIC:  So if it can be tendered, please.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  So you're now asking for it to be tendered, because

 5     I thought you said it wasn't necessary.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No that's right, but, I mean, in relation to

 8     what was said in cross-examination and re-examination --

 9             JUDGE HALL:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2444, Your Honours.

11             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, the next witness is here.

12     Your Honours granted him protective measures.  It's become apparent that

13     there is virtually not a word that he can say in open session because

14     anything he does say is going to reveal exactly who he is, particularly

15     because there's a limited aspect to his evidence as per your ruling in

16     any event.

17             It seems to me that we will get on more efficiently if question

18     have closed session for the witness.  I've spoken to the Defence about

19     this.  As I understand it, nobody objects to that.  We all agree it would

20     be more efficient.  That's a matter for Your Honours.

21             JUDGE HALL:  We have been alerted, Ms. Korner, to the application

22     that you are now making, and whereas, in terms of the process, while the

23     witness is on the stand, there is, as you say, a measure of efficiency,

24     in the method that you propose.  But that, unfortunately, creates

25     inefficiency at another level, and we -- unless we are persuaded

Page 26534

 1     otherwise, our incline that the better course to take -- what we think is

 2     a better course of having to go in and out of private session, as

 3     necessary.

 4             MS. KORNER:  [Microphone not activated]...  trying to work out

 5     what Your Honour was saying.  I'm sorry, my brain is slightly dead this

 6     morning.

 7             So Your Honours would prefer that we try going in and out of

 8     private.

 9             I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Stay in private.

11             JUDGE HALL:  And then, if necessary -- -

12             MS. KORNER:  Oh, I see.

13             JUDGE HALL:  -- then matters could be released into the public

14     session.

15             MS. KORNER:  Oh, right.  I'm with you.  I follow you, yes.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             MS. KORNER:  May, Your Honours -- may I mention one other thing.

18             He does have medical problems.  He is on medication for diabetes

19     and high blood pressure.  Simply to alert Your Honours.  I don't foresee

20     any problems, but I've told him that if he does feel unwell, he is to

21     notify Your Honours straight away.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, because the witness -- the name of the

24     witness is not revealed.  I don't think that matters.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 26535

 1             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise in order for the technical arrangements

 2     to be made for the next witness.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 11.22 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.45 a.m.

 5             JUDGE HALL:  Could we go into closed session so the witness can

 6     be escorted into court, please.

 7             MS. KORNER:  Your Honours, while he's coming in, can I just ask,

 8     as regards timing, we're obviously not -- presumably not going to have

 9     the break at 12.00.  Are we going to go straight through to 1.45?

10                           [Closed session]

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Page 26536











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Page 26542











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Page 26564

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE HALL:  So we rise, to return at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

12                           January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.