120112ED

Page 26565

1 Thursday, 12 January 2012

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

6 everyone in and around the courtroom.

7 This is case IT-08-91-T, the Prosecutor versus Mico Stanisic and

8 Stojan Zupljanin.

9 JUDGE HALL: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Good morning to everyone. May we have the appearances, please.

11 MS. KORNER: Good morning, Your Honours. Joanna Korner, and

12 Alex Demirdjian, assisted by Sebastiaan van Hooydonk, and with us today,

13 an intern, Laura Hibberd, for the Prosecution.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Slobodan Zecevic,

15 Slobodan Cvijetic, Eugene O'Sullivan, and Ms. Monika Marekova, appearing

16 for Stanisic Defence this morning. Thank you.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Dragan Krgovic,

18 appearing for Zupljanin Defence.

19 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.

20 So Ms. Korner, are you on your feet.

21 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm just slightly behind,

22 and I'm trying to put my computer on.

23 JUDGE HALL: Thanks.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 JUDGE HALL: Could we go into closed session so the usher could

Page 26620

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

3 MS. KORNER: Your Honours will recall --

4 JUDGE HARHOFF: Can we have the curtains lifted, please.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours will recall that our application to

6 call the present witness in rebuttal related to the specific allegations

7 that were made as part of the Stanisic case set out in Your Honours'

8 judgement, transcript page 19602 to -3, amongst others. And very

9 specific allegations were made, pursued by questions from counsel for the

10 Defence.

11 Not one word of those allegations has been put to this witness by

12 Mr. Cvijetic, and we are therefore assuming, as we are entitled to, that

13 this no longer forms part of the Defence case. If it does, then those

14 matters must be put to the witness.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is precisely why

16 I wanted to say that we divided our Defence case into two parts, and I'm

17 going to deal with these issues that Ms. Korner is mentioning in my

18 cross-examination, and that would be left for that part of the

19 proceedings.

20 MS. KORNER: This is not a joint -- this municipality is only

21 dealing as against Mr. Stanisic. It is not charged in respect of

22 Mr. Zupljanin. It is therefore the duty, we say -- it is different if

23 it's experts or whether it for the Defence for Mr. Stanisic who raised

24 this issue in the first place, and this is it rebuttal against Stanisic,

25 not Zupljanin, to specifically put the matters.

Page 26621

1 If Your Honours feel that it would be left to Mr. Krgovic, and it

2 is a matter for Your Honours, we say this is part of the

3 Stanisic Defence.

4 JUDGE HALL: I take the very practical position, Ms. Korner, that

5 if that is how -- this is the -- the -- the accused are jointly charged,

6 and notwithstanding the discrete Defences of the two co-accused, I don't

7 see the water-tight compartments which seeming to the premise of your

8 intervention. And if counsel have decided so to divide up the work, it

9 would then be left for the Chamber to make what it would of the body of

10 evidence thus produced.

11 So it isn't, whereas technically, with respect, it seemed -- I

12 follow what you are saying. It is not something that I would become

13 exercised about. If that's how they want to divide up the work ...

14 [overlapping speakers]

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I should say that, of course,

16 technically, as Your Honours knows, although the two accused are being

17 tried together, each is individually indicted. I mean, that is part and

18 parcel of the indictment rules. But, as I say, if Your Honours take the

19 view that this is the proper way then I won't take it any further,

20 provided, one way or the other, these matters are properly put to the

21 witness so that he can deal with them.

22 JUDGE HALL: So we will see.

23 And we ...

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE HALL: If there's nothing else, we'll take the adjournment

Page 26652

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE HALL: I note Ms. Korner is on her feet, but before she

9 speaks, I should indicate that -- well, first of all, reminding counsel

10 that the Chamber expects to receive as per its previous instructions, the

11 joint report by tomorrow. And assuming that counsel are still on track

12 with the preparation of that, it is proposed that we convene for an

13 administrative hearing on Wednesday of next week.

14 I don't know what counsel's convenience is in that regard.

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, the answer is, I don't think -- we

16 haven't got together to discuss this yet at all. We are intending to get

17 together tomorrow to discuss it, but I don't think you're going to get a

18 report tomorrow, unless we are in agreement, which seems to be highly

19 improbable.

20 So, Your Honours, particularly as we're not sitting -- I mean,

21 unless Your Honours intend to sit tomorrow.

22 JUDGE HALL: No.

23 MS. KORNER: I didn't think Your Honours did.

24 JUDGE HALL: No.

25 MS. KORNER: So, Your Honours, we can provide a report by Monday

Page 26653

1 and so we can put it into writing.

2 JUDGE HALL: And is -- Wednesday [overlapping speakers] once we

3 are in receipt of the report, we would know what then remains left for

4 the Bench to have it apply its own mind to in the absence of an agreement

5 by counsel. So the report comes in on Monday, is Wednesday

6 [overlapping speakers] when we reconvene sufficient so that we know where

7 we are?

8 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honours, yes. There aren't that many

9 documents. I mean, we aren't yet -- we don't know yet what documents the

10 Defence MFIed which they still want to have a go, but in our case there

11 are about half a dozen or so, I think, that we need to deal with.

12 Your Honour, I'm sorry, though, can I -- can I go back to -- I'm

13 sorry that we believe we've put our case.

14 Your Honours, in terms the evidence to which I referred to

15 elliptically at page 19602, led and underlined by the Defence, was that

16 17 villages in the area of Doboj had been ethnic cleansed, that the area

17 of the town was about to be attacked, and that the garrison commander

18 personally ordered the take-over. None of that was put to him in terms.

19 It was not put to him either that when he said that there is -- that --

20 perhaps we better go into private session very quickly. Sorry.

21 JUDGE HALL: Yes.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Perhaps we can address this on Wednesday during the

23 administrative hearing, because it will take me at least ten minutes to

24 explain how we do it --

25 MS. KORNER: [Overlapping speakers] ... but, Your Honour, I'm

Page 26654

1 sorry --

2 MR. ZECEVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... but which witnesses we

3 did put the case to.

4 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour --

5 MR. ZECEVIC: And if we are required at all in the -- in the --

6 in the rebuttal phase to do such a thing. That's -- it takes a

7 submission, and it takes time, Your Honour, and we are behind the time, I

8 see.

9 JUDGE HALL: Perhaps, Ms. Korner, Mr. Zecevic is correct, but to

10 the extent that this is a matter obviously of concern to you, that rather

11 than trying to rush it in the -- in this because we are passed the time

12 when we should have taken the adjournment today it can be addressed on

13 Wednesday.

14 MS. KORNER: It can, Your Honours. I suggest it should be a

15 matter of concern to you as well as to me. There is an obligation under

16 the Rules to put the case. And if it is going to be suggested that a

17 witness is --

18 JUDGE HALL: And we may agree with you. All I'm saying is that

19 we can canvass this on Wednesday.

20 MS. KORNER: Well, so be it, Your Honour. But the witness is

21 still here now. That's my concern. And --and that's why -- if -- if --

22 if there is to be a discussion about this, and the witness has to be

23 re-called -- because it is our case in point that if it is to be

24 suggested that a witness has lied then that has to be put. Because the

25 witness has given clear evidence which totally contradicts what the

Page 26655

1 Defence case apparently was.

2 Now, Mr. Zecevic and Mr. Cvijetic never even got near it.

3 Mr. Krgovic said he was going to do it, and he didn't.

4 JUDGE HALL: And the position, in sum, seems to be that they have

5 a different perspective. So the -- I'm not going to anticipate what the

6 effect of this would be on the presence of the witness. It is clearly a

7 matter which we cannot conveniently or sensibly revolve today.

8 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I know that. But if --

9 if -- if Your Honours accept my address on this matter, and I think it

10 simply is not for the Defence to say that they've put their case. They

11 have not. And Mr. Zecevic, who cannot even argue that -- that

12 Mr. Cvijetic got near that. It is Mr. Krgovic to argue, if it's anybody,

13 because it was left to him to argue, and he didn't.

14 Now, if Your Honours take the view, that's it. That's fine. But

15 otherwise if the witness has to be recalled, that has to be done

16 tomorrow.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE HALL: So if there's nothing else, we would take the

19 adjournment, to reconvene at 9.00 --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE HALL: So we reconvene at 9.00 --

22 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

23 JUDGE HALL: 9.00 on Wednesday next.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 18th day of

Page 26656

1 January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.